The Talk Show

186: ‘Good News, My House Burned Down’, With Special Guest Matthew Panzarino


00:00:00   we probably should record it last week [TS]

00:00:02   but I had stuff so and so here we are [TS]

00:00:04   one week later after you and I saw each [TS]

00:00:06   other in cupertino for a mysterious I [TS]

00:00:09   think it was billed to me as a Mac round [TS]

00:00:11   table how was it built to you in advance [TS]

00:00:14   of our meeting last week yeah but the [TS]

00:00:17   feature the mac or whatever yeah so I [TS]

00:00:23   went into it with a 50 50 50 in my head [TS]

00:00:29   whether this was going to be that's all [TS]

00:00:32   I knew was going to be about the mac i [TS]

00:00:33   was going to be a roundtable discussion [TS]

00:00:35   with a couple of executives and a [TS]

00:00:37   handful of members of the media um and i [TS]

00:00:43   went into it thinking well this has got [TS]

00:00:45   to be about the mac pro because it's [TS]

00:00:48   it's not an event it's certain of the [TS]

00:00:51   opposite of events very small run its [TS]

00:00:54   end the matter how can they have [TS]

00:00:57   something about the mac and not address [TS]

00:00:58   the elephant in a room that was the [TS]

00:01:00   thousand and some day old mac pro so I [TS]

00:01:04   went into it thinking fifty-fifty this [TS]

00:01:05   is either going to be good news about [TS]

00:01:06   the mac pro or bad news about the mac [TS]

00:01:08   pro like it right we're done with the [TS]

00:01:10   mac pro or we're not done with the mac [TS]

00:01:13   pro but we can't show it yet and here's [TS]

00:01:15   why well what were you thinking yeah you [TS]

00:01:19   probably you're smarter than me I don't [TS]

00:01:21   know I didn't I didn't really connect it [TS]

00:01:25   directly to the mac pro although in you [TS]

00:01:28   know in hindsight it seems fairly [TS]

00:01:29   reasonable to do that I mean I guess I [TS]

00:01:33   did a little bit you know obviously the [TS]

00:01:34   mac pro is sort of the elephant in the [TS]

00:01:35   room and a lot of ways for Apple and the [TS]

00:01:38   mac in the sweep of the mac universe but [TS]

00:01:42   i think it's definitely it was [TS]

00:01:44   definitely an opportunity to say um you [TS]

00:01:48   know hey here's some things were [TS]

00:01:50   thinking about about the mac but i mean [TS]

00:01:51   at all as you probably picked up on it [TS]

00:01:54   was very odd because you know very [TS]

00:01:56   rarely as a brain knows does Apple [TS]

00:01:58   actually say hey we're going to talk [TS]

00:01:59   about future things you know so that [TS]

00:02:03   aspect of it was confusing to me and my [TS]

00:02:04   only my only inkling about that was like [TS]

00:02:07   oh they need to set something up you [TS]

00:02:09   know right uh well my thinking was that [TS]

00:02:14   could be that that would that would be [TS]

00:02:16   very similar to how they would announce [TS]

00:02:17   the end of life of the mac pro if that [TS]

00:02:20   had been their decision that they're not [TS]

00:02:22   going to hold an product announcement [TS]

00:02:26   event for a product its end of life [TS]

00:02:27   right and I feel like even if the answer [TS]

00:02:32   was let's just make pro quality imax [TS]

00:02:36   when they unveil them on stage they're [TS]

00:02:40   not going to want to sully that on stage [TS]

00:02:42   by saying oh and remember the mac pro [TS]

00:02:44   that's we don't need that anymore right [TS]

00:02:47   that that they would want to break it in [TS]

00:02:49   a non keynote type scenario whether it's [TS]

00:02:54   you know somebody in particular gets an [TS]

00:02:57   exclusive or a handful of people getting [TS]

00:02:59   exclusive and get a chance to ask [TS]

00:03:00   questions about it I think it would have [TS]

00:03:02   been very similar if that had been their [TS]

00:03:04   decision and and I think that you know [TS]

00:03:06   obviously the reason why they did you [TS]

00:03:09   know that wasn't the news the news in [TS]

00:03:10   fact is that they are hard at work on an [TS]

00:03:12   all new mac pro but because they're so [TS]

00:03:16   far away from shipping it which we we [TS]

00:03:19   can get into next that they felt like [TS]

00:03:25   they had to say something they had to [TS]

00:03:27   they could not just wait and they wanted [TS]

00:03:29   to I think combined with the fact that [TS]

00:03:31   they wanted to release speed bumps or [TS]

00:03:34   price drops whatever you want to call [TS]

00:03:36   what it is they've done with the current [TS]

00:03:39   mac pro last week where they at the same [TS]

00:03:42   price levels they've they've gone from [TS]

00:03:44   you know the entry level is no longer [TS]

00:03:45   for core at six core and the mid-level [TS]

00:03:48   one is no longer six core it's eight [TS]

00:03:49   core or something like that if that's [TS]

00:03:52   all they did is just update the store [TS]

00:03:54   and not say anything about the future [TS]

00:03:56   all right people would have lost their [TS]

00:03:59   lost their damn minds rightly so people [TS]

00:04:01   would have lost their minds rightly so [TS]

00:04:03   because it wouldn't have made any sense [TS]

00:04:05   that at that Apple was pretending that [TS]

00:04:07   this was normal right it's one of the [TS]

00:04:10   scenarios where context free you know [TS]

00:04:14   update would have caused many many more [TS]

00:04:17   problems than it you know solved I guess [TS]

00:04:19   is the word right yeah and I I think [TS]

00:04:23   that that's unusual an unusual position [TS]

00:04:25   for them to be in to feel [TS]

00:04:27   strongly enough about you know the [TS]

00:04:30   future of a particular category for them [TS]

00:04:33   to set it up or tee it up in that way [TS]

00:04:35   because a lot of times they just sort of [TS]

00:04:36   take their lumps yeah you know they'll [TS]

00:04:38   just they'll just do it and people will [TS]

00:04:40   misconstrue it or whatever and then [TS]

00:04:42   they'll come out with the thing that [TS]

00:04:43   they would they were teeing up and then [TS]

00:04:45   either people will like it at they won't [TS]

00:04:47   you know but in this case I guess they [TS]

00:04:49   felt strongly enough about how long it [TS]

00:04:51   had been or how you know how much [TS]

00:04:54   culpability they felt I guess you know [TS]

00:04:57   in how the thing played out that they [TS]

00:04:59   felt that they needed to contextualize [TS]

00:05:02   it I feel like a week later I feel like [TS]

00:05:09   it there is no simple answer I feel like [TS]

00:05:13   part of it in terms of you know I think [TS]

00:05:17   you you and you asked the question and [TS]

00:05:21   you preface it with I don't want to get [TS]

00:05:22   too personal but the gist of the [TS]

00:05:27   question was when the hell's always [TS]

00:05:29   means that somebody's about to get [TS]

00:05:30   personal right when did you guys realize [TS]

00:05:32   you've done fucked up I mean that's not [TS]

00:05:34   what you said but we so that for [TS]

00:05:39   everybody doesn't have it in top of our [TS]

00:05:40   minds it was it was nine of us at the [TS]

00:05:42   table it was it was representing Apple [TS]

00:05:44   was Phil Schiller Craig federighi [TS]

00:05:48   talking software and John turness ter [TS]

00:05:52   and us who was a vice president of [TS]

00:05:54   hardware and and as it was described to [TS]

00:05:57   us at the beginning of the meeting on [TS]

00:05:58   his plate our iPad pro and Mac Pro and [TS]

00:06:03   maybe macbook pro I forget what they [TS]

00:06:06   said they did but but I know iPad pro [TS]

00:06:09   and a couple of others and I think [TS]

00:06:10   honestly it was you know had very good [TS]

00:06:14   things to say at the round table but I [TS]

00:06:16   just talking to a couple of other people [TS]

00:06:18   that Apple in the last week after this [TS]

00:06:19   came out it sounds to me like he's [TS]

00:06:22   turness is a real up-and-comer at the [TS]

00:06:23   company like I don't think it's the last [TS]

00:06:25   time that we are going to hear from him [TS]

00:06:27   in a some sort of you know publicity [TS]

00:06:29   facing right of event it seems to me [TS]

00:06:33   like he's a real up-and-comer and the [TS]

00:06:36   fact that he's been tasked with all [TS]

00:06:37   right you're right going to run point on [TS]

00:06:39   Hardware on this new mac pro [TS]

00:06:40   is a sign of that and I think a good [TS]

00:06:42   sign I think people people who are [TS]

00:06:44   hoping that this Mac Pro is everything [TS]

00:06:46   Mac Pro users have been hoping for I [TS]

00:06:48   think the fact that John turness is in [TS]

00:06:50   charge of it is a very good sign and [TS]

00:06:53   then on the press side it was me and you [TS]

00:06:56   you know Nina freed who was recently a [TS]

00:07:01   recode but is now at a new site called [TS]

00:07:03   axios for those of you who don't follow [TS]

00:07:05   the comings and goings of the press very [TS]

00:07:07   closely John Pat's Kowski also recently [TS]

00:07:12   have recode but now at BuzzFeed and last [TS]

00:07:17   but not least lance ulanoff who was [TS]

00:07:20   there from mashable so former recode [TS]

00:07:22   writers were well represented nobody [TS]

00:07:25   from recode was there at the moment it [TS]

00:07:27   was a large category percentage wise yes [TS]

00:07:31   the it of these before he present 40 [TS]

00:07:34   resented the press attendees were [TS]

00:07:36   formerly of recode and then last but not [TS]

00:07:37   least or maybe possibly least was was [TS]

00:07:40   Bill Evans from Apple PR was at the [TS]

00:07:42   table but it's his Apple pr's wanti was [TS]

00:07:45   more or less there to play defense and [TS]

00:07:47   and pretty much just run the clock and [TS]

00:07:48   didn't ready mmm so I I I thought that [TS]

00:08:00   the we all tried to ask I i would say [TS]

00:08:04   everybody except patch kowski who only [TS]

00:08:06   popped piped in at the end with a very [TS]

00:08:07   well time question about the mac mini [TS]

00:08:09   everybody tried to ask a when did you [TS]

00:08:13   guys figure out that you had a real [TS]

00:08:15   problem on your hands with the design of [TS]

00:08:16   the 2013 trashcan mac and be when did [TS]

00:08:20   you guys start on this project of a new [TS]

00:08:25   mac you know rethought from the ground [TS]

00:08:27   up mac pro em and apple does not like to [TS]

00:08:30   talk about timelines I mean that's I [TS]

00:08:33   mean they don't like to talk about [TS]

00:08:34   future stuff they don't like to talk [TS]

00:08:35   about all sorts of things but they do [TS]

00:08:36   not like to talk about when in the past [TS]

00:08:39   they made decisions and how long things [TS]

00:08:41   took it is more than almost more than [TS]

00:08:44   anything else they don't like to like [TS]

00:08:47   once a design of an erotic comes out [TS]

00:08:49   they will talk of you know Johnny I've [TS]

00:08:51   will talk at length openly and honestly [TS]

00:08:52   and in his little [TS]

00:08:54   narrated videos about why something is [TS]

00:08:56   the way it is um they won't tell you in [TS]

00:08:59   advance but once it's out they'll say [TS]

00:09:01   here's why we have these gently sloped [TS]

00:09:03   corners here or or whatever but in terms [TS]

00:09:06   of how long they've been working on [TS]

00:09:08   blank they just it is that's like the [TS]

00:09:12   holiest of Holies the secret of Secrets [TS]

00:09:14   and they you know I think they view that [TS]

00:09:17   as their as as part of their IP almost [TS]

00:09:20   because part of their process and so [TS]

00:09:22   they view that those timelines and the [TS]

00:09:25   how long it takes things to get things [TS]

00:09:26   right or you know what abortive attempts [TS]

00:09:29   they had at a particular thing or [TS]

00:09:31   whatever before they settled on the [TS]

00:09:33   right path they view that all is like a [TS]

00:09:34   protected category of information that's [TS]

00:09:37   about their process that's part of their [TS]

00:09:39   secret their special sauce right um and [TS]

00:09:42   so but there were little dribs and drabs [TS]

00:09:46   that you going over it especially after [TS]

00:09:49   the you know writing my piece all night [TS]

00:09:52   long and then and then reading everybody [TS]

00:09:56   else is the next day and then Gavin a [TS]

00:09:57   day to sort of breathe and then rethink [TS]

00:09:59   it all and look at the transcript again [TS]

00:10:01   um I think that the most telling remark [TS]

00:10:07   was federighi saying that they had [TS]

00:10:10   painted themselves into a thermal corner [TS]

00:10:12   and and and combined with his saying [TS]

00:10:16   that they went through like the state's [TS]

00:10:18   you know is it said in a jovial fashion [TS]

00:10:20   and to get a laugh that they went [TS]

00:10:21   through the stages of grief or something [TS]

00:10:22   like that right on which to me reading [TS]

00:10:26   between the lines says that they did try [TS]

00:10:28   to update the mac pro at least several [TS]

00:10:32   times in in between 2013 and the point [TS]

00:10:37   where they said okay we got to give up [TS]

00:10:38   on this and it seemed like by ant you [TS]

00:10:42   know by trying to answer customers [TS]

00:10:44   requests for what they wanted from a [TS]

00:10:46   newer mac pro it was mostly about more [TS]

00:10:50   powerful GPUs but more powerful GPUs [TS]

00:10:53   threw off the thermal balance of the mac [TS]

00:10:55   pro as we know it mm-hmm and that there [TS]

00:10:58   were you know and so I who knows I'm [TS]

00:11:01   guessing at least at least two years was [TS]

00:11:05   spent on [TS]

00:11:07   some degree trying to update and get [TS]

00:11:09   more powerful GPUs into that that [TS]

00:11:12   configuration and at some point they [TS]

00:11:14   gave up mm-hmm what do you what was your [TS]

00:11:17   take on that yeah i mean i mean that's [TS]

00:11:22   two different questions right the [TS]

00:11:23   timeline is one question you know how [TS]

00:11:25   how long do you think it took them and [TS]

00:11:27   then the other question is did they [TS]

00:11:29   actually make attempts at it or did they [TS]

00:11:32   go hey you know we really there's [TS]

00:11:34   nothing really we can do here because [TS]

00:11:36   they just knew from all of the from the [TS]

00:11:38   building of the thing in the first place [TS]

00:11:39   they built it specifically to take [TS]

00:11:41   advantage of this split or balanced GPU [TS]

00:11:45   scenario and you know shoving one hot [TS]

00:11:49   GPU and it was never going to work I [TS]

00:11:51   don't know you know I don't know how [TS]

00:11:52   much modeling or prototyping or theory [TS]

00:11:55   you know work they did on saying what if [TS]

00:11:58   we jammed in nvidia 1080 yet you know I [TS]

00:12:01   in here TI in here and and said can we [TS]

00:12:05   get this to run in here you know in this [TS]

00:12:07   shell with proper thermal properties or [TS]

00:12:10   whatever I don't know how far along that [TS]

00:12:11   road they went or did they just say well [TS]

00:12:14   this is not the purpose we built it for [TS]

00:12:15   it all so can we get two GPUs in here [TS]

00:12:18   that will work together in such a way to [TS]

00:12:20   where it would provide a significant [TS]

00:12:22   value to our customers and then they get [TS]

00:12:25   they said no you know all we can do is [TS]

00:12:27   give it a bump so that people on this [TS]

00:12:29   current gen can just roll with it until [TS]

00:12:32   we get out what's due um I don't know [TS]

00:12:35   you know I think it's it's hard it's [TS]

00:12:40   harder for me to say that they went in [TS]

00:12:42   and built whole new units in this case [TS]

00:12:46   then if they were working on a new [TS]

00:12:47   product which they wouldn't undoubtedly [TS]

00:12:49   do you know they'll build fully full [TS]

00:12:52   till all produced you know devices if [TS]

00:12:55   they feel that they need to to figure [TS]

00:12:57   out whether it works or not when they're [TS]

00:12:59   creating a new product on something like [TS]

00:13:01   this I guess maybe I guess maybe they [TS]

00:13:03   did they would you know I have no [TS]

00:13:05   information I'm just trying to like [TS]

00:13:07   divine from what I know about the [TS]

00:13:08   process that they go through but it [TS]

00:13:10   seems like it seems like it's [TS]

00:13:11   possibility one thing we don't have to [TS]

00:13:14   speculate on I mean this is just a fact [TS]

00:13:16   it's obvious just by studying the device [TS]

00:13:18   and it's also obvious just [TS]

00:13:20   listening to the way Apple described it [TS]

00:13:22   in 2013 when it when it was announced is [TS]

00:13:25   that the trashcan mac pro from 2013 was [TS]

00:13:30   a bet on multi-threaded GPUs as the [TS]

00:13:34   future of GPU power and and they had a [TS]

00:13:38   software a story to tell about it I [TS]

00:13:40   think you know without getting too [TS]

00:13:42   complicated i think it was mostly sort [TS]

00:13:44   of an open CL type thing but in the mean [TS]

00:13:47   time in years since apple has sort of [TS]

00:13:49   stepped away from open CL and i think [TS]

00:13:52   the bigger story isn't even really [TS]

00:13:55   Apple's own decisions on software but [TS]

00:13:58   more just where did the industry go and [TS]

00:14:01   in the pro market it's not so dependent [TS]

00:14:04   on or defined by Apple in terms of how [TS]

00:14:08   should you make software for the mac pro [TS]

00:14:10   but more this is how industry standard [TS]

00:14:13   powerful GPU hogging apps are written [TS]

00:14:18   you know things like video editing and [TS]

00:14:21   3d which a lot of it is cross-platform [TS]

00:14:24   probably most of it is cross-platform [TS]

00:14:26   and it's the way that that's gone in the [TS]

00:14:31   four years since we first saw this mac [TS]

00:14:34   pro it's gotten ever more dependent on [TS]

00:14:36   super powerful single GPUs which is that [TS]

00:14:42   the opposite of where the mac pro and i [TS]

00:14:44   think in theory in theory the mac pro [TS]

00:14:47   could have been the future of pro [TS]

00:14:49   computing the sort of throwing lots of [TS]

00:14:52   GPU cores and having software written to [TS]

00:14:55   take advantage of that but that's just [TS]

00:14:58   not where the industry went and with the [TS]

00:15:00   software that is ever more dependent on [TS]

00:15:02   just single threaded GPU performance the [TS]

00:15:06   mac pro's just did it just wasn't apt at [TS]

00:15:10   all you know what i keep going back to [TS]

00:15:13   is this so I you know I grew up building [TS]

00:15:18   computers i guess a lot of lot of folks [TS]

00:15:19   who are probably listen to this did you [TS]

00:15:21   know or group at least very interested [TS]

00:15:24   in how they were put together and i am [TS]

00:15:28   feeling I you know my first computer is [TS]

00:15:29   like an Amiga that I pieced together out [TS]

00:15:31   of you know rendo parts [TS]

00:15:34   from a friend's stores of garbage cause [TS]

00:15:38   his dad worked for a pacific bell and [TS]

00:15:39   then so on and so forth spiraled [TS]

00:15:41   outwards from there to pcs and you know [TS]

00:15:43   x86 machines and you know on on through [TS]

00:15:47   the windows trainer das train and then [TS]

00:15:49   windows train and all that simply [TS]

00:15:51   because I it was the thing that I could [TS]

00:15:53   afford and I could put together myself [TS]

00:15:55   somewhere long lane along the line there [TS]

00:15:58   I developed like this parallel track [TS]

00:15:59   with starting with the performer line [TS]

00:16:02   and going you know up through there [TS]

00:16:05   where I always had a Mac in the house as [TS]

00:16:07   well and then my mom would use it i [TS]

00:16:09   would use it for graphic design and like [TS]

00:16:11   eventually photoshop stuff once they [TS]

00:16:12   became more powerful and and you know [TS]

00:16:16   variety of other things but i always had [TS]

00:16:18   like this parallel track of computing [TS]

00:16:20   but i spent the majority of my time on [TS]

00:16:22   pcs simply because they were great for [TS]

00:16:24   gaming and i was just a you know massive [TS]

00:16:27   gamer and you know still him to a degree [TS]

00:16:29   but the platform itself was obviously [TS]

00:16:32   you know very much pushed forward by [TS]

00:16:35   gamers you know there were other [TS]

00:16:36   industries that were responsible for [TS]

00:16:39   pushing certain components of the [TS]

00:16:41   computer you know the cpu or the GPU or [TS]

00:16:44   whatever forward depending on their [TS]

00:16:47   needs their specific needs obviously you [TS]

00:16:49   know data storage is very much like an [TS]

00:16:51   enterprise thing and you know so on and [TS]

00:16:53   so forth but the the GPU and cpu were [TS]

00:16:57   pushed very hard for a lot of years by [TS]

00:16:59   gaming and still are you know i mean [TS]

00:17:02   obviously GP user where they are because [TS]

00:17:03   of gamers they're not there because of [TS]

00:17:06   you know true academics that some tina [TS]

00:17:09   howe stage do need those but only [TS]

00:17:11   because it was there it was sort of like [TS]

00:17:13   a chicken egg thing and they it's that [TS]

00:17:15   academics use heavily you know GPU [TS]

00:17:18   centric computing platforms and things [TS]

00:17:21   now because they can and they're the but [TS]

00:17:24   the gps are there because the gamers [TS]

00:17:26   wanted them and the game companies [TS]

00:17:28   pushed them hard i mean i remember [TS]

00:17:30   playing games that they said hey this [TS]

00:17:32   game looks this good this year but it'll [TS]

00:17:34   look even better next year right we've [TS]

00:17:37   already programmed in you know the Lord [TS]

00:17:39   the higher high resolution textures and [TS]

00:17:42   so on and so forth that we in better [TS]

00:17:44   physics engines that we know will only [TS]

00:17:46   your [TS]

00:17:47   will only support next year I was a [TS]

00:17:49   constant thing I never much in forward I [TS]

00:17:51   was never much of a gamer but I when I [TS]

00:17:53   was you know 20 years ago I was much [TS]

00:17:55   closer to a gamer than I am now and I [TS]

00:17:57   remember the even on the Mac that was [TS]

00:17:59   true that uh mm-hmm you know the [TS]

00:18:02   marathon was the big game that's right [TS]

00:18:04   the right yeah bungee the prick you know [TS]

00:18:06   bungees wasn't their first game but it [TS]

00:18:08   was the first real smash hit and sort of [TS]

00:18:11   a predecessor to what's the game on xbox [TS]

00:18:14   halo halo marathon was huge and and it [TS]

00:18:18   was networked so we could play it [TS]

00:18:19   against each other yeah love that game [TS]

00:18:22   you had to be on a local talk network [TS]

00:18:23   though you couldn't this is how old I am [TS]

00:18:25   you could play over the Internet I don't [TS]

00:18:28   know is that so yeah we played we played [TS]

00:18:30   that and then we played doom locally and [TS]

00:18:33   do dickham 3d all this stuff Mimi I mean [TS]

00:18:36   you get that and that's what drove it [TS]

00:18:39   you know what was that's what was [TS]

00:18:40   amazing what was amazing though is that [TS]

00:18:42   we'd get a new computer at the student [TS]

00:18:44   newspaper would you know get a new [TS]

00:18:46   quadra or something and all of a sudden [TS]

00:18:47   marathon ran way better and it was like [TS]

00:18:50   whoa I remember to a lot of times to it [TS]

00:18:53   was framerate right like you could yeah [TS]

00:18:55   and and certain games had settings where [TS]

00:18:57   you could optimize for frame rate or [TS]

00:18:59   optimized for graphics but you could get [TS]

00:19:00   the girl you could get the good graphics [TS]

00:19:01   but you wouldn't get a great frame rate [TS]

00:19:03   and then all of a sudden you get a new [TS]

00:19:04   computer and you get it all um every [TS]

00:19:06   night in the right dark forces and [TS]

00:19:08   everything was all smooth all of a [TS]

00:19:09   sudden right now right yeah yeah it's [TS]

00:19:13   right everything right that's what I [TS]

00:19:15   mean that's definitely you know the [TS]

00:19:17   money comes from gamers that's that's [TS]

00:19:19   what's driving the industry to keep [TS]

00:19:21   riping the billions of dollars into [TS]

00:19:23   research into ever more powerful GPUs [TS]

00:19:25   and then like you said like things like [TS]

00:19:26   academics who are really just running [TS]

00:19:28   math just math or data analysis it [TS]

00:19:32   really aren't even pushing pixels to a [TS]

00:19:34   screen they're literally just chewing [TS]

00:19:35   through mounds and mounds of [TS]

00:19:37   quote-unquote big data but you can do it [TS]

00:19:40   where the algorithms run faster on the [TS]

00:19:43   GPU than a cpu and they're taking [TS]

00:19:45   advantage of technology that was [TS]

00:19:46   developed for games and and the mac pro [TS]

00:19:49   just was it just was not where the [TS]

00:19:52   industry was headed and no matter i mean [TS]

00:19:54   you know gamer ever looked at the mac [TS]

00:19:55   pro and thought oh this is interesting [TS]

00:19:57   and heck they they barely looked at [TS]

00:19:59   the previous generation of Mac Pro's [TS]

00:20:01   that way because they knew that they [TS]

00:20:03   would be upgrading their GPU within six [TS]

00:20:05   to nine months to 12 months right and [TS]

00:20:06   that they would be pushing you know [TS]

00:20:08   looking for that and they didn't have [TS]

00:20:10   the confidence that AMD and NVIDIA would [TS]

00:20:13   consistently release that highest you [TS]

00:20:16   know highest performance graphics card [TS]

00:20:18   for the the mac pro in that in that [TS]

00:20:21   original configuration much less the new [TS]

00:20:23   one obviously where Apple's the one who [TS]

00:20:25   controls that yeah so what occurs to me [TS]

00:20:27   and looking at this scenario and I mean [TS]

00:20:30   it's not just in last week but I think [TS]

00:20:32   having learned now what we now know I [TS]

00:20:35   think it's almost certain is that [TS]

00:20:37   there's at least a little bit of hubris [TS]

00:20:39   here in the design of the 2013 Mac Pro [TS]

00:20:42   that I think is fueled by the iphone and [TS]

00:20:46   ipad where with the iPhone Apple the [TS]

00:20:50   iphone market in and of itself is so big [TS]

00:20:53   and so lucrative and that Apple can [TS]

00:20:57   define the computer architecture of the [TS]

00:21:00   iphone and can define the api's for [TS]

00:21:05   creating software for it and runs the [TS]

00:21:08   app store and can you know it it not [TS]

00:21:13   really adhere to you know define which [TS]

00:21:16   api's you use but sort of make sure that [TS]

00:21:18   your software is is you know it within [TS]

00:21:21   the lines of how they want software [TS]

00:21:23   written um but primarily just by being [TS]

00:21:26   able to define the hardware they can [TS]

00:21:28   define if you want your software to run [TS]

00:21:31   well you're going to have to do it the [TS]

00:21:33   way we envision you doing it whether you [TS]

00:21:35   know it's not even so much the app store [TS]

00:21:37   forget the app store part it's just [TS]

00:21:39   you've got to take advantage of the way [TS]

00:21:41   the iphone is architected and the iphone [TS]

00:21:44   is so big that developers will do it i [TS]

00:21:48   mean literally they even you know and [TS]

00:21:50   this is less of a big deal today or eat [TS]

00:21:52   more easily overlooked because it's [TS]

00:21:54   always been the case but in the early [TS]

00:21:55   years of the iphone it was a big deal [TS]

00:21:57   where an awful lot of developers were [TS]

00:21:59   like well i want we want our software on [TS]

00:22:01   the iphone we're buying their first max [TS]

00:22:03   ever because you had to run xcode to [TS]

00:22:06   write you still have to run xcode to [TS]

00:22:07   write iphone software and xcode only [TS]

00:22:09   runs on a mac and so it was literally [TS]

00:22:11   developers were buying an [TS]

00:22:13   Alton all new machine just to do it [TS]

00:22:14   whereas in the pro high performance [TS]

00:22:19   computing industry apple doesn't have [TS]

00:22:23   that sort of dominant role they can't [TS]

00:22:24   redefine or not it maybe not redefine [TS]

00:22:28   it's too strong a word but they can't [TS]

00:22:29   steer they couldn't push the industry to [TS]

00:22:33   switch to a multi-threaded GPU model [TS]

00:22:35   when everybody else you know more or [TS]

00:22:38   less what Apple needed to do was be [TS]

00:22:40   humble about it and go with the flow of [TS]

00:22:41   the industry which is big honkin single [TS]

00:22:45   GPUs mmhmm yeah I mean there's two so [TS]

00:22:49   twice if he was twice and don't don't at [TS]

00:22:52   me or whatever but I think twice during [TS]

00:22:54   the interview they they said something [TS]

00:22:56   about you know we want to make sure that [TS]

00:22:58   whatever we do is new and innovative and [TS]

00:23:00   I looked at I thought about that and I [TS]

00:23:02   was thinking about that during you know [TS]

00:23:04   when they said it because they said it [TS]

00:23:05   again when they said it again I kind of [TS]

00:23:08   my ears kind of perked up you know [TS]

00:23:09   because I think that that is there's two [TS]

00:23:12   ways to take that statement you could [TS]

00:23:14   take that statement and say hey I'm [TS]

00:23:16   doing something new and innovative and [TS]

00:23:17   you can you could just take it at face [TS]

00:23:19   value and go you know what great I'm [TS]

00:23:21   glad someone is right I'm glad somebody [TS]

00:23:24   cares enough to really push and make [TS]

00:23:27   sure that they're not obeying accepted [TS]

00:23:31   norms without questioning them that they [TS]

00:23:35   are truly pushing boundaries and and [TS]

00:23:37   questioning all of the underpinnings of [TS]

00:23:40   computing and making sure that the way [TS]

00:23:42   things are done is actually the right [TS]

00:23:44   way and the way they should be done all [TS]

00:23:46   of that right and you know you can [TS]

00:23:48   extrapolate keep you can keep going from [TS]

00:23:49   there all of the things that you would [TS]

00:23:51   like to say to interpret that in the [TS]

00:23:54   best light possible and then there's [TS]

00:23:56   another way to take it which is we are [TS]

00:23:59   so interested in doing something new and [TS]

00:24:02   innovative that we overlook at the [TS]

00:24:04   obvious hurdles because we are so [TS]

00:24:08   addicted to the slash-and-burn of you [TS]

00:24:12   know obeying our own recognizance right [TS]

00:24:15   or relying on our own recognizance to [TS]

00:24:17   chart the course of computing because if [TS]

00:24:20   you go hey every phone let's apply this [TS]

00:24:22   to existing you know what supplies to [TS]

00:24:26   existing [TS]

00:24:27   framework of the iphone you look at the [TS]

00:24:29   iphone you go hey if you just said look [TS]

00:24:32   guys you can do every other thing but [TS]

00:24:34   keyboards are great you know keyboards [TS]

00:24:36   are fantastic they're fun they work fine [TS]

00:24:38   you know thumbs press keys makes total [TS]

00:24:40   sense right week work since we were [TS]

00:24:42   cavemen we've been manipulating things [TS]

00:24:44   with our opposable thumbs why stop now I [TS]

00:24:47   mean there's plenty of really great [TS]

00:24:49   arguments that a lot of people made to [TS]

00:24:51   themselves and really convince [TS]

00:24:52   themselves we're right and that's why [TS]

00:24:54   there was a lot of blowback against the [TS]

00:24:55   no physical keyboard thing so Apple in [TS]

00:24:57   that moment you know maybe this is [TS]

00:24:59   Steve's genius of saying no this is the [TS]

00:25:01   right way or maybe this is a collective [TS]

00:25:03   genius which is more likely where Steve [TS]

00:25:05   acts is the editor for a lot of people's [TS]

00:25:06   flurry of ideas yeah I think we can make [TS]

00:25:08   this work and you know it's so so much [TS]

00:25:10   simpler less moving parts and blah blah [TS]

00:25:11   blah tons of arguments on the other side [TS]

00:25:13   right and they made a decision to to [TS]

00:25:16   slice out a very well-established [TS]

00:25:19   charted course of having that physical [TS]

00:25:22   keyboard that was not necessarily evil [TS]

00:25:25   right there's nothing bad about it it's [TS]

00:25:28   just did they saw pathways that opened [TS]

00:25:31   up for themselves if they got rid of it [TS]

00:25:32   like man then we can manipulate the [TS]

00:25:34   whole screen the keyboard can go away [TS]

00:25:36   when you don't need it you know blah [TS]

00:25:37   blah blah right you know all of the [TS]

00:25:38   arguments that we all know so well but [TS]

00:25:40   you look at that and it worked out [TS]

00:25:42   incredibly well for them and in fact not [TS]

00:25:44   only was it did it work out well for [TS]

00:25:46   them it was the right thing to do that's [TS]

00:25:48   why our phones look the same now right [TS]

00:25:50   but in this case I think they looked at [TS]

00:25:54   the problem and said hey this is the way [TS]

00:25:57   it could go this parallel GPU that [TS]

00:26:00   splits tasks it can run lower power when [TS]

00:26:03   it needs to you know it's very you know [TS]

00:26:06   power conscious which is great for the [TS]

00:26:07   environment etc etc and there's really [TS]

00:26:10   no reason that needs to be blowing all [TS]

00:26:12   this air all over the place all the time [TS]

00:26:14   and collecting all this unseemly dust [TS]

00:26:16   and why has nobody ever thought of this [TS]

00:26:18   and they got so excited about the fact [TS]

00:26:20   that they could do this thing that they [TS]

00:26:23   didn't stop and ask themselves well is [TS]

00:26:26   the simpler straighter you know more [TS]

00:26:30   common path is it a common path for a [TS]

00:26:32   reason like do we use metal because [TS]

00:26:34   metal is good you know or do we use a [TS]

00:26:37   strong powerful GPU because the industry [TS]

00:26:40   that we have [TS]

00:26:41   traditionally not served gaming industry [TS]

00:26:43   uses it and and that pushes everything [TS]

00:26:47   forward and we can ride that wave like [TS]

00:26:49   white why paddle out of the current [TS]

00:26:52   right and and generate all of the force [TS]

00:26:54   on your own when you can use additive [TS]

00:26:57   force on the existing current and go you [TS]

00:26:59   know what this is fine these this is our [TS]

00:27:02   limitation that we have to accommodate [TS]

00:27:06   this graphics card now what does that [TS]

00:27:08   look like maybe it's a flat slab with [TS]

00:27:10   almost nothing else to it that's [TS]

00:27:12   essentially a GPU you know or maybe its [TS]

00:27:14   external GPUs or whatever but I just [TS]

00:27:16   think that the like the questions got [TS]

00:27:18   asked and they applied roughly the same [TS]

00:27:20   frameworks to it that they did with the [TS]

00:27:22   iphone and end up with just the wrong [TS]

00:27:24   answer yeah and I don't know why that is [TS]

00:27:25   I'm I don't presuppose I'm dumb compared [TS]

00:27:28   to all these guys they have and girls [TS]

00:27:29   they have working on these problems so [TS]

00:27:31   you know I don't pre supposed to know [TS]

00:27:33   that's just my supposition as to how the [TS]

00:27:35   argument went down you know and a one [TS]

00:27:39   factor I guess I knew this but it got [TS]

00:27:41   reiterated a few times is that the the [TS]

00:27:45   Mac Pro had a sort of triangular shape [TS]

00:27:48   in the tube in the middle the hollow [TS]

00:27:50   Center to GP and a GPS CPU and it's not [TS]

00:27:55   just that it was three things in the air [TS]

00:27:57   flowed through the center to cool them [TS]

00:27:58   but that it was specifically designed [TS]

00:28:00   that all three sides of that triangle [TS]

00:28:03   would remain roughly on par with each [TS]

00:28:07   other in terms of the heat that needed [TS]

00:28:09   to be dissipated and it wasn't a design [TS]

00:28:11   that would accommodate one of the three [TS]

00:28:13   sides getting hotter than the others and [TS]

00:28:15   that season again with software that [TS]

00:28:18   more so now than before them this Mac [TS]

00:28:22   Pro was distributed that in intensive [TS]

00:28:26   graphics intensive software today is [TS]

00:28:28   about overloading a single GPU with as [TS]

00:28:33   much performance as you can get and it [TS]

00:28:35   just you know so even using this [TS]

00:28:37   configuration to run software that's [TS]

00:28:39   meant to run single threaded on a GPU [TS]

00:28:41   it's just not conducive to that because [TS]

00:28:44   you can't let one of the GPS get hotter [TS]

00:28:46   than another and it probably plays into [TS]

00:28:49   the fact that the mac pro as we know it [TS]

00:28:53   is sort of notorious for [TS]

00:28:55   almost like like a European sports car [TS]

00:28:59   that they they're not the most rugged [TS]

00:29:01   machines are durable machines in terms [TS]

00:29:04   of reliability over the years that [TS]

00:29:07   people who've been pushing these [TS]

00:29:08   machines there's a lot of people who had [TS]

00:29:10   you know they seemingly anecdotally at [TS]

00:29:12   least after going to get GPUs replaced [TS]

00:29:14   pretty frequently mmm primarily from [TS]

00:29:17   overheating I mean that's the only way [TS]

00:29:18   really a computer part wears out or it's [TS]

00:29:21   part like a GPU could wear out all right [TS]

00:29:24   let me take a break and we'll come back [TS]

00:29:26   to this and but let me first thank our [TS]

00:29:29   first sponsor of this show circle from [TS]

00:29:33   Disney what is Circle Circle from Disney [TS]

00:29:36   is a beautiful little device designed [TS]

00:29:39   for families to manage content and time [TS]

00:29:41   online for all the devices in your home [TS]

00:29:44   it pairs with just about any Wi-Fi [TS]

00:29:47   router and it recognizes every device [TS]

00:29:49   connected to it tablets PCs smartphones [TS]

00:29:51   even Chromebooks anything that connects [TS]

00:29:53   to the Wi-Fi in your house it will [TS]

00:29:55   recognize it and then parents can set [TS]

00:29:57   profiles for each member of the family [TS]

00:29:58   and tailor the individual preferences [TS]

00:30:00   for each one it's very easy to set up it [TS]

00:30:03   is exactly what you would think of from [TS]

00:30:05   something from Disney it is not like [TS]

00:30:06   setting up something from Cisco where [TS]

00:30:11   you need a network engineering degree it [TS]

00:30:13   is very much what you would think Disney [TS]

00:30:14   would design for non network engineering [TS]

00:30:17   moms and dads you just download the app [TS]

00:30:21   choose your network it's that simple you [TS]

00:30:22   go from there and just tap things on the [TS]

00:30:25   app what kind of things did let you do [TS]

00:30:27   it lets you filter content customize [TS]

00:30:29   what's available and you can set time [TS]

00:30:31   limits and you can set the time limits [TS]

00:30:33   on specific things like YouTube [TS]

00:30:35   minecraft Facebook Netflix and even [TS]

00:30:38   snapchat kids staying up late on their [TS]

00:30:41   tablet you can set a bedtime for each [TS]

00:30:44   kid and their devices families can also [TS]

00:30:48   see how they spend their time online [TS]

00:30:49   with their insight to feature it's [TS]

00:30:51   really great Disney super stoked about [TS]

00:30:54   this they've just number a couple of new [TS]

00:30:56   things they just launched a new thing [TS]

00:30:57   about a month ago it's called circle [TS]

00:31:00   connections it lets you connect app [TS]

00:31:01   services and devices like friend of the [TS]

00:31:04   show automatic you know the car dinkus [TS]

00:31:06   well now you can hook that up and the [TS]

00:31:08   family can [TS]

00:31:08   share stuff like that through the circle [TS]

00:31:11   Alexa ifttt chore monster and others you [TS]

00:31:17   can all hook up to your circle it's sort [TS]

00:31:19   of turning into a platform Disney is [TS]

00:31:22   very excited about this recently Apple's [TS]

00:31:26   CFO Luca maestri was held a meeting with [TS]

00:31:32   the Italian press at the Italian [TS]

00:31:34   consulate in New York City and he was [TS]

00:31:36   talking about how his family uses Apple [TS]

00:31:38   products and devices and he specifically [TS]

00:31:40   mentioned circle with Disney something [TS]

00:31:42   that his family uses to manage his [TS]

00:31:44   family's devices i will put a link to [TS]

00:31:46   this in the show notes i think you're [TS]

00:31:49   going to need to translate it from [TS]

00:31:50   italian but that's okay i'm sure most [TS]

00:31:51   people listen to the show speak fluent [TS]

00:31:53   Italian but that's a pretty cool story [TS]

00:31:56   i'm pretty you don't really hear disney [TS]

00:31:58   or apple see c-level executives talking [TS]

00:32:01   up products from other companies all [TS]

00:32:02   that often so anyway very exciting stuff [TS]

00:32:05   where do you go to find out more easy go [TS]

00:32:08   to meet circle m eet circle calm and [TS]

00:32:12   remember this code the talk show and you [TS]

00:32:16   will get free shipping and ten dollars [TS]

00:32:19   off your circle with disney device it's [TS]

00:32:25   a ninety nine dollar product 89 bucks [TS]

00:32:28   with the talk show code and circle go [TS]

00:32:32   which is their service for mobile like a [TS]

00:32:34   phone like cellular service is nine [TS]

00:32:37   dollars and ninety-five cents a month [TS]

00:32:38   for up to 10 devices ios-only but that's [TS]

00:32:42   probably not a little problem for [TS]

00:32:43   listeners of the talk show so my thanks [TS]

00:32:45   to Disney meet circle dot com code the [TS]

00:32:48   talk show great product so timeline wise [TS]

00:32:53   more spectators here's my take my take [TS]

00:32:54   is that in the 20 I mean because one [TS]

00:33:01   thing a couple people have observed is [TS]

00:33:04   it's not like this is the first Mac Pro [TS]

00:33:05   that went a long time between updates [TS]

00:33:07   the Mac Pro had sort of been on a longer [TS]

00:33:09   than one year update schedule for a [TS]

00:33:12   while so the fact that there wasn't an [TS]

00:33:15   update in 2014 I don't think struck I [TS]

00:33:17   don't think it really surprised anybody [TS]

00:33:18   right my guess is sometime around 20 [TS]

00:33:22   15 2016 is when an update certainly by [TS]

00:33:25   2016 it was everybody was talking about [TS]

00:33:27   and certainly Apple was aware of it I [TS]

00:33:28   think I don't know this I don't have any [TS]

00:33:31   sort of in you know super sources inside [TS]

00:33:34   but i think and i don't i don't think [TS]

00:33:38   anybody surprised by this i I think that [TS]

00:33:40   as as the round 2015 2016 as it became [TS]

00:33:46   more obvious that the design of the mac [TS]

00:33:48   pro was problematic I think there was a [TS]

00:33:51   sense within Apple that maybe that's [TS]

00:33:53   okay and maybe macbook pros combined [TS]

00:33:58   with ever more powerful imax it might be [TS]

00:34:02   the way future to satisfy the Pro users [TS]

00:34:05   of the Mac market mm-hmm and I think and [TS]

00:34:09   I think this came up at our interview [TS]

00:34:12   last week and I think that they sort of [TS]

00:34:14   emphasized just what we want a war soon [TS]

00:34:18   as be what would just what a large [TS]

00:34:20   percentage of their what they define as [TS]

00:34:23   Pro users are using macbook pros and [TS]

00:34:25   imacs and they even mentioned this end [TS]

00:34:30   if anything this might have been the [TS]

00:34:31   most surprising part of the meeting is [TS]

00:34:33   where they mentioned specifically that [TS]

00:34:36   they have new imacs in the pipeline that [TS]

00:34:38   are coming slated for some time this [TS]

00:34:40   year that are including configurations [TS]

00:34:43   that are that are geared towards pro [TS]

00:34:44   customers I think that what happened is [TS]

00:34:49   that it probably at a very high level I [TS]

00:34:51   mean I'm not naming names I don't know [TS]

00:34:52   but I think at a pretty high level [TS]

00:34:54   within the company they talk themselves [TS]

00:34:56   into believing that the imac including [TS]

00:35:02   the ever better imax combined with the [TS]

00:35:04   macbook pros could cover everything they [TS]

00:35:06   needed to cover and i think at some [TS]

00:35:08   point recently let's say within the last [TS]

00:35:11   six months or so maybe a little more [TS]

00:35:16   they realize no that's that the one [TS]

00:35:20   percent of mac users who can't be [TS]

00:35:22   satisfied by an imac need up a real pro [TS]

00:35:26   computer that's my [TS]

00:35:30   yeah I mean I think you're I think [TS]

00:35:34   you're probably right if it sounds that [TS]

00:35:35   sounds reasonable I I definitely think [TS]

00:35:38   there was that moment which they alluded [TS]

00:35:40   to because they said but we realized we [TS]

00:35:42   needed more that they did feel that a [TS]

00:35:48   larger and larger segment of the pro [TS]

00:35:50   market was being served by the 5k screen [TS]

00:35:52   and computer slept in the back and you [TS]

00:35:57   know I certainly it's what I've been [TS]

00:35:58   using for a long time and had a mac pro [TS]

00:35:59   in years and I only had one briefly and [TS]

00:36:02   honestly a lot of the times that I ran [TS]

00:36:04   mac pro level machines on you know with [TS]

00:36:07   OS 10 running on them I ran hackintosh [TS]

00:36:09   is for that GPU reason yeah you know and [TS]

00:36:13   Hagin touches are becoming a much more I [TS]

00:36:14   don't doubt that Apple sees this all [TS]

00:36:17   right you know the Diagnostics probably [TS]

00:36:18   tell them you know general opt-in [TS]

00:36:21   Diagnostics probably tell them if not [TS]

00:36:23   pulling the community but there are an [TS]

00:36:25   increasing number of people running [TS]

00:36:27   hackintosh a--'s which are you know pc [TS]

00:36:31   components that have OS 10 driver [TS]

00:36:34   support or have you know some sort of [TS]

00:36:37   crib together driver support and that [TS]

00:36:40   are they're being put together and then [TS]

00:36:42   you boot OS 10 on them either with the [TS]

00:36:45   use of a bootloader piece of software or [TS]

00:36:47   piece of hardware that allows you to [TS]

00:36:48   boot OS 10 fulo ascendant is thinking [TS]

00:36:51   that you're running a mac and the [TS]

00:36:53   advantage that offers is of course you [TS]

00:36:55   can build according to your precise [TS]

00:36:56   power needs perhaps even more powerful [TS]

00:36:59   than is currently on the market which is [TS]

00:37:00   a situation we're in right now with the [TS]

00:37:02   mac pro and then of course you can you [TS]

00:37:05   know you can run windows on a mac but [TS]

00:37:07   now you can run windows on a more [TS]

00:37:08   powerful mac that can then run very high [TS]

00:37:11   performance games or other applications [TS]

00:37:13   and so you you'll see people like um who [TS]

00:37:18   was it the recently wrote out a fairly [TS]

00:37:20   solid you know kind of what it's like to [TS]

00:37:23   build a hackintosh right now just [TS]

00:37:24   recently it was was it my grundle I [TS]

00:37:26   really think it was I think Mike was [TS]

00:37:29   mentioning was talking about running [TS]

00:37:31   agata somebody else just wrote a piece [TS]

00:37:33   that was traded around a lot I mean you [TS]

00:37:35   know many folks have over the years they [TS]

00:37:37   build uh people graphics software for [TS]

00:37:39   the mac [TS]

00:37:41   and it's not due to my brains blanking [TS]

00:37:46   I'll turn get back to it if I can but [TS]

00:37:48   the the gist of it is is like best of [TS]

00:37:52   both worlds scenario where they they [TS]

00:37:55   love OS 10 and they just they should are [TS]

00:37:57   using windows they'd use it when they [TS]

00:37:59   they need to to to make it through you [TS]

00:38:02   know or to run software that only runs [TS]

00:38:05   on Windows AKA you know as Class A games [TS]

00:38:09   that just don't ship on multiple [TS]

00:38:10   platforms although steam is making that [TS]

00:38:12   better to a degree but the OS 10 is just [TS]

00:38:16   you know the beautiful experience and [TS]

00:38:17   all that and they can build this really [TS]

00:38:19   custom experience underneath it and I [TS]

00:38:22   think that that more people being [TS]

00:38:24   willing to consider a hackintosh and [TS]

00:38:26   that the community really looking to [TS]

00:38:29   those builders to try and tell them [TS]

00:38:33   exactly what parts to buy and you know [TS]

00:38:35   exactly how to build in all of that I [TS]

00:38:38   think that really speaks to this desire [TS]

00:38:40   to have OS 10 but with a more [TS]

00:38:43   customizable hardware platform [TS]

00:38:45   underneath it not just more powerful [TS]

00:38:46   more with a capital P but also more [TS]

00:38:49   customizable truly modular you're right [TS]

00:38:52   the truly modular experience that people [TS]

00:38:54   haven't had in in many years so even [TS]

00:38:57   though they appreciate the design and [TS]

00:38:58   the thoughtfulness that went into the [TS]

00:39:00   mac pro as it currently exists I think [TS]

00:39:02   many people feel that those choices [TS]

00:39:05   being made for them stands out as an [TS]

00:39:08   even more irritating decision because of [TS]

00:39:12   the segments that they're going after [TS]

00:39:14   like how many I Mac users I mean well [TS]

00:39:17   scratch that they're plenty it like Mac [TS]

00:39:19   Mac Apple users love to complain because [TS]

00:39:21   they're so attuned to detail right the [TS]

00:39:24   company has taught them to be picky [TS]

00:39:26   about their stuff that's why they're [TS]

00:39:28   that's the base reason that the Mac [TS]

00:39:31   community the Apple community is so [TS]

00:39:33   picky about stuff because they've been [TS]

00:39:34   trained to care right by a company that [TS]

00:39:38   ostensibly cares so but scratching that [TS]

00:39:41   did setting that aside the average Mac [TS]

00:39:43   user the eighty percent let's call it of [TS]

00:39:45   the mac users out there who are like hey [TS]

00:39:48   I just wanna I mean a big computer for [TS]

00:39:49   my desk and I love apple stuff what do I [TS]

00:39:52   get that's not a portable oh we buy an [TS]

00:39:54   imac [TS]

00:39:54   the vast majority of those are not going [TS]

00:39:57   crazy about like oh I can't you know [TS]

00:39:59   change this particular chipset right or [TS]

00:40:02   whatever like I can't get this network [TS]

00:40:04   card instead of this network card or [TS]

00:40:06   whatever but the segment that they did [TS]

00:40:08   it to was the one that was going to be [TS]

00:40:11   the most allergic to it in the long run [TS]

00:40:14   and like that is another thing that was [TS]

00:40:16   kind of weird to me why you know I [TS]

00:40:20   wonder if there was I mean I'm sure [TS]

00:40:21   there was an advocate inside saying this [TS]

00:40:24   is great but it actually something like [TS]

00:40:27   the Mac Pro imagine if that was the imac [TS]

00:40:29   now these days i think the imac is the [TS]

00:40:30   right choice people just buy one thing [TS]

00:40:31   and they're done nobody buys you know [TS]

00:40:33   nobody wants to buy separate monitors [TS]

00:40:35   they do it because they have to write [TS]

00:40:36   like the average person so I think the [TS]

00:40:38   imac is the right configuration I'm not [TS]

00:40:40   trying to say the mac pro is right for [TS]

00:40:42   the normal normal person but that [TS]

00:40:45   segment of the market would have been [TS]

00:40:47   much more receptive and and welcoming I [TS]

00:40:49   think of a thing where it's like don't [TS]

00:40:51   worry about it we thought it all out all [TS]

00:40:53   right we got we've got the perfect sweet [TS]

00:40:56   capsule for you that's gonna do amazing [TS]

00:40:58   things performance wise totally enough [TS]

00:41:00   for you plot this on your desk and plug [TS]

00:41:03   it in and enjoy and that segment i think [TS]

00:41:06   is much more receptive and welcoming of [TS]

00:41:07   that whereas the pro segment is the [TS]

00:41:09   opposite the first thing they do is [TS]

00:41:11   refresh that i fix it basically see how [TS]

00:41:13   things tear down and they want to know [TS]

00:41:15   what's in there and all of added they [TS]

00:41:17   want to be informed consumers and i [TS]

00:41:20   think that that leads itself to the [TS]

00:41:23   desire to have choice and all that stuff [TS]

00:41:24   i don't know it's just the way i see [TS]

00:41:26   that they just sort of pitched it to the [TS]

00:41:28   wrong people yeah i think that there's a [TS]

00:41:30   there's a continuum of everything but [TS]

00:41:32   there's a continuum of people's price [TS]

00:41:34   sensitivity but i think that at a [TS]

00:41:39   certain end if you talk about like [TS]

00:41:41   college age students who want a mac for [TS]

00:41:45   gaming and what type or want a computer [TS]

00:41:50   that can dual boot it but use a mac but [TS]

00:41:52   have powerful GPU for gaming are going [TS]

00:41:55   to more willing to spend the time to do [TS]

00:41:59   the hackintosh and to put up with the [TS]

00:42:01   incompatibilities and the worries about [TS]

00:42:03   applying software updates and you know [TS]

00:42:06   maybe wait until somebody else decides [TS]

00:42:08   what [TS]

00:42:08   this graphics card is going to work with [TS]

00:42:10   the latest version of Sierra and all of [TS]

00:42:13   that e versus the professional market [TS]

00:42:16   where price isn't really the issue it's [TS]

00:42:18   there they're begging Apple to charge [TS]

00:42:20   them a lot of money for a computer and [TS]

00:42:22   part of what they're willing to spend [TS]

00:42:24   money for is that it just works factor [TS]

00:42:26   of getting a real knack and and the [TS]

00:42:31   hacking tag like I can see why the [TS]

00:42:33   hackintosh root is more popular than [TS]

00:42:35   growing unpopularity given the mac pro [TS]

00:42:37   stagnation but I think it's a large part [TS]

00:42:39   of that I mean and clearly like I said [TS]

00:42:41   it's a continuum and there's obvious [TS]

00:42:43   exceptions there might be real [TS]

00:42:44   professional users there certainly are [TS]

00:42:46   some who are doing it but I think for [TS]

00:42:48   the most part of a real professional [TS]

00:42:49   user who might be willing to spend you [TS]

00:42:51   know ten thousand dollars or fifteen [TS]

00:42:53   thousand dollars on a workstation isn't [TS]

00:42:56   going to do it with the unsupported [TS]

00:42:58   drivers and an unsupported configuration [TS]

00:43:00   like they're going they're the type of [TS]

00:43:01   people who are like if I if I can't get [TS]

00:43:04   hardware from Apple that meets my needs [TS]

00:43:05   I'd rather switch to windows and get a [TS]

00:43:08   supported configuration mm-hmm where's [TS]

00:43:11   the hobby that's totally right the [TS]

00:43:13   hobbies community as always by [TS]

00:43:14   definition been self-supporting they [TS]

00:43:16   don't need support they are their own [TS]

00:43:18   support yeah and whatever configuration [TS]

00:43:21   they're coming up with they're getting [TS]

00:43:23   live essentially live tech support on it [TS]

00:43:26   from the community that they're in of [TS]

00:43:28   those similar people that build those [TS]

00:43:30   things hey is anybody ever come across [TS]

00:43:31   this problem you know I did it a bunch [TS]

00:43:33   of times and I was building hackintosh [TS]

00:43:34   Azure it's like you know cuz I was just [TS]

00:43:36   too poor to own a really powerful mac [TS]

00:43:38   and so I would just build out of pc [TS]

00:43:41   parts and then run OS 10 on it and you [TS]

00:43:43   know I'm sure Apple's cringing and [TS]

00:43:45   whatever but you know is what I could [TS]

00:43:47   afford I think a lot of people start out [TS]

00:43:48   that way you know those price sensitive [TS]

00:43:50   people but there are also you know sort [TS]

00:43:52   of hacker friendly or whatever you want [TS]

00:43:54   to call it who don't mind instability [TS]

00:43:57   and thinking around because they just [TS]

00:43:59   lust after the list and experience and [TS]

00:44:01   the apple ecosystem and all of that but [TS]

00:44:04   i think that there's there's like it's [TS]

00:44:08   sort of like a like an entry point for [TS]

00:44:13   eventual mac pro owners right and so [TS]

00:44:16   either sits i know there are other entry [TS]

00:44:19   points right you you go to a company and [TS]

00:44:21   you become a designer [TS]

00:44:22   and all this in the company has a [TS]

00:44:23   corporate budget and what are you going [TS]

00:44:24   to buy right you're going to get your [TS]

00:44:26   mac pro you're going to be a designer [TS]

00:44:28   capital d and do all your design work [TS]

00:44:30   and that's great but I think there's a [TS]

00:44:33   long tail of people out there that are [TS]

00:44:35   that become pros through alternative [TS]

00:44:39   pathways don't have a lot of money to [TS]

00:44:41   spend want to get into the ecosystem [TS]

00:44:43   because they once again they love the [TS]

00:44:46   fact that the company prioritizes design [TS]

00:44:49   and prioritizes care and all of that and [TS]

00:44:53   their software and they know in the end [TS]

00:44:55   underneath it you know the hardware that [TS]

00:44:57   it runs isn't perhaps as carefully [TS]

00:45:00   picked and chosen as something Apple [TS]

00:45:02   would do but they can get it to run [TS]

00:45:03   right it's just a mishmash of junk but [TS]

00:45:06   it sort of runs and you get it running [TS]

00:45:08   and you feel good about it and you get [TS]

00:45:11   hooked on the ecosystem which is why I [TS]

00:45:13   always thought that like every once in a [TS]

00:45:15   while Apple will take a stab at like [TS]

00:45:16   trying to shut down hackintosh projects [TS]

00:45:18   and things like that and I was always [TS]

00:45:20   just like let it ride I mean if it [TS]

00:45:21   becomes like a major component of of [TS]

00:45:23   your your your business being stolen I [TS]

00:45:27   guess you got to take some legal and [TS]

00:45:28   there's also some legal things you have [TS]

00:45:30   to plant because of trademarks and all [TS]

00:45:32   that so that you can you can have a [TS]

00:45:34   future court case against Samsung and [TS]

00:45:36   say oh yeah we tried to protect it back [TS]

00:45:37   then even with little people so I get [TS]

00:45:40   the legal precedent thing but it's also [TS]

00:45:42   just like let it ride because it's like [TS]

00:45:43   the low simmering entry point to [TS]

00:45:46   somebody who eventually once they have [TS]

00:45:47   the means is like yes build me an [TS]

00:45:50   amazing mac please apple and I you know [TS]

00:45:53   powerful mac pro and i will buy it you [TS]

00:45:55   know now i have the means i'm addicted i [TS]

00:45:57   want the power but i also want to as 10 [TS]

00:46:00   and so on you know that's the way this [TS]

00:46:02   way oh i found that the hackintosh [TS]

00:46:04   article by the way it was by dan council [TS]

00:46:06   pasted in laid out 7 i'll send you the [TS]

00:46:09   link yeah it's a dance den council of [TS]

00:46:11   real mac um you know remix software [TS]

00:46:14   makes lots of great lots of great apps [TS]

00:46:15   this is not an ad etc but um he wrote an [TS]

00:46:20   article called building a hackintosh pro [TS]

00:46:23   we had a little earlier back in March [TS]

00:46:27   but it's you know it's his reasoning was [TS]

00:46:29   essentially they have an updated the mac [TS]

00:46:31   pro you know I need a full-size graphics [TS]

00:46:33   card for the stuff that I want to do and [TS]

00:46:36   it's not complicated you know it's not [TS]

00:46:38   like anybody's angry um well I mean I'm [TS]

00:46:40   sure spooler angry but it's not like [TS]

00:46:42   anybody's really you know thinkin Apple [TS]

00:46:45   is is doing things that are our consumer [TS]

00:46:49   hostile on purpose it's just that there [TS]

00:46:51   are certain needs and once they have an [TS]

00:46:53   apple didn't glom onto those needs and [TS]

00:46:55   wants or sign enough importance to them [TS]

00:46:57   soon enough to catch themselves so they [TS]

00:47:00   didn't have this big gap now yeah uh I [TS]

00:47:03   think you know bottom line I don't [TS]

00:47:07   really see how this well I'm sure [TS]

00:47:10   someone at Apple could deny it but I [TS]

00:47:12   think it seems pretty clear now that at [TS]

00:47:16   at some point in the last three years or [TS]

00:47:19   so or maybe starting around three years [TS]

00:47:21   ago that Apple sort of took its [TS]

00:47:23   collective eye off the ball on the Mac [TS]

00:47:25   at least on the hardware I think the [TS]

00:47:27   software is is going fine i think it I [TS]

00:47:30   think they're hitting their annual [TS]

00:47:31   release dates I think that they're solid [TS]

00:47:34   I think they're doing enough cool new [TS]

00:47:36   things that are very useful like this [TS]

00:47:39   the continuity stuff I use every day and [TS]

00:47:41   I just think like how the hell did I [TS]

00:47:43   ever go from having these links on my [TS]

00:47:46   iPhone and then switch to another [TS]

00:47:47   computer to look at them there before [TS]

00:47:51   this stuff worked some great features I [TS]

00:47:54   don't think that they should be [TS]

00:47:56   radically you know I think that the [TS]

00:47:57   complaint some people have about the mac [TS]

00:47:59   is that they haven't done anything [TS]

00:48:00   that's like a here's the radical new way [TS]

00:48:02   to use a mac I don't want that I don't I [TS]

00:48:04   mean obviously if they came up with [TS]

00:48:05   something that i liked i guess i'd like [TS]

00:48:06   it but I I kind of feel like they've [TS]

00:48:09   they've you know that's what new [TS]

00:48:12   products are for right that's why the [TS]

00:48:14   ipad is drank product like here's a [TS]

00:48:16   radical new way to do personal computing [TS]

00:48:18   on a portable device I still want to do [TS]

00:48:20   the stuff that the mac is great ad on [TS]

00:48:22   the mac hardware wise though I think [TS]

00:48:25   it's hard to deny that they kind of took [TS]

00:48:27   their eye off the ball and I think part [TS]

00:48:29   of this sort of let's hit the reset [TS]

00:48:32   button mindset is that reaction to the [TS]

00:48:35   macbook pros last fall i think was mixed [TS]

00:48:40   I don't think it's fair to say it was a [TS]

00:48:42   poor reaction but I do think it was a [TS]

00:48:44   mixed reaction and I think that took [TS]

00:48:46   Apple by surprised I think Apple [TS]

00:48:48   internally thought they had a smash [TS]

00:48:50   hit on their hands and was sort of taken [TS]

00:48:53   aback by the number of people who [TS]

00:48:55   expressed displeasure at the decisions [TS]

00:49:00   they made with the macbook pro and [TS]

00:49:01   during our discussions schiller had [TS]

00:49:03   during his opening remarks addressed it [TS]

00:49:06   you know in his usual way where it [TS]

00:49:08   wasn't quite head-on but it was clear [TS]

00:49:10   what do you know he mentioned him and [TS]

00:49:11   said that they're hard at work on you [TS]

00:49:14   know a next group of macbook pros that [TS]

00:49:16   would address specifically address some [TS]

00:49:18   of the complaints professional users had [TS]

00:49:20   about the current ones mm-hmm although [TS]

00:49:24   he didn't say any of things of what [TS]

00:49:25   those are but I would presume where [TS]

00:49:27   maybe he mentioned Ram did he mention [TS]

00:49:29   Ram I mean one of the combines people [TS]

00:49:31   have about them the current macbook pros [TS]

00:49:32   is that there's still the maximum amount [TS]

00:49:34   of RAM you can put in them as 16 [TS]

00:49:36   gigabytes and the reason it's not 32 [TS]

00:49:39   gigabytes is because Apple is using I I [TS]

00:49:42   don't don't have to write me to tell me [TS]

00:49:44   but they're using ddr whatever [TS]

00:49:45   low-energy RAM and on the current Intel [TS]

00:49:50   chipsets if you're using the the kind of [TS]

00:49:53   low-energy battery-saving ram that Apple [TS]

00:49:56   wants to use to keep battery life good [TS]

00:49:58   the maximum you can get a 16 so they [TS]

00:50:01   could in theory have macbook pros that [TS]

00:50:03   have 32 gigabytes but it would involve a [TS]

00:50:05   complete riorca texture of which intel [TS]

00:50:08   chipset they're using and + to ship them [TS]

00:50:10   last year they would have not been able [TS]

00:50:12   to use the low-energy RAM and you know [TS]

00:50:16   we went through this when the macbook [TS]

00:50:17   pros came out and the answer from the [TS]

00:50:19   people who are Ram starved in their [TS]

00:50:22   professional work who really need more [TS]

00:50:25   than 16 or at least want if not needs [TS]

00:50:27   more than 16 gigabytes of RAM is I don't [TS]

00:50:29   care about the low-energy I'll plug the [TS]

00:50:31   goddamn thing in I I just write 32 [TS]

00:50:34   gigabytes of RAM which is a completely [TS]

00:50:36   reasonable trade-off it is completely [TS]

00:50:39   reasonable for a a Mac user who gets the [TS]

00:50:44   mac and loves the mac it's not like oh [TS]

00:50:47   if you were a real mac user you'd see [TS]

00:50:49   the genius of apples decision in this [TS]

00:50:51   regard I could totally see how there are [TS]

00:50:53   totally you know longtime diehard Mac [TS]

00:50:56   users who get and love the Mac who are [TS]

00:50:58   willing to say I would rather get eight [TS]

00:51:00   hours of battery life instead of 10 if i [TS]

00:51:03   could get 32 [TS]

00:51:04   bytes of ram in this machine instead of [TS]

00:51:07   16 totally reasonable I think the number [TS]

00:51:10   of people who took that stance that took [TS]

00:51:12   Apple by surprise I mean not it's not [TS]

00:51:14   that Ram is the only issue you know that [TS]

00:51:17   the complaint that people have about the [TS]

00:51:19   macbook pros but it yeah yeah well then [TS]

00:51:25   so there's two things that I think that [TS]

00:51:28   are important touch i think the touch [TS]

00:51:29   thing we should talk about because i [TS]

00:51:30   think that's a very interesting you [TS]

00:51:32   mentioned ipad yeah but the other branch [TS]

00:51:34   of that discussion is you mentioned how [TS]

00:51:36   many people it took them by surprise you [TS]

00:51:38   know how to make people to that so it [TS]

00:51:40   sort of begs the question like why did [TS]

00:51:43   it take them by surprise you know right [TS]

00:51:45   like why why did it sneak up on them so [TS]

00:51:49   to speak well like I said best phrase I [TS]

00:51:51   can come up with is that they took their [TS]

00:51:53   eye off the ball a bit and and sort of [TS]

00:51:55   got a little too insular I mean I think [TS]

00:51:58   it's often the biggest risk to Apple is [TS]

00:52:00   that they're so insular as a culture [TS]

00:52:05   that they they can lose sight even if [TS]

00:52:07   they think they're keeping track of the [TS]

00:52:09   community and and they certainly I think [TS]

00:52:11   they certainly try to but I think that [TS]

00:52:13   they could talk themselves into just [TS]

00:52:17   taking their eye off the ball [TS]

00:52:18   specifically taking their eye off the [TS]

00:52:20   ball of the needs of larger chunks of [TS]

00:52:22   their of their users that's what I think [TS]

00:52:25   they took their eye off the ball on and [TS]

00:52:27   I think that there are so many things to [TS]

00:52:29   really love about the new macbook pro [TS]

00:52:30   that I think they I think that they [TS]

00:52:32   somehow got caught up loving the things [TS]

00:52:36   there are to love about them and lost [TS]

00:52:38   sight of the ways that it was falling [TS]

00:52:40   short of their profession some of their [TS]

00:52:42   professionals needs what were you going [TS]

00:52:45   to say about touch in that regard so the [TS]

00:52:49   things they mentioned essentially was if [TS]

00:52:51   you want touch by an iPad and use it [TS]

00:52:53   together and we're going to work on ways [TS]

00:52:55   to make those work better take or think [TS]

00:52:57   about ways to make those work better [TS]

00:52:58   together or whatever which says to me [TS]

00:53:00   that they want the not want this is not [TS]

00:53:03   the primary purpose of it but then iPad [TS]

00:53:06   pro you know they wanted to act like a [TS]

00:53:08   cintiq tablet of sorts that connects to [TS]

00:53:12   a mac pro or imac or whatever in a more [TS]

00:53:15   seamless fashion which makes a hell of a [TS]

00:53:17   ton of sense [TS]

00:53:18   because though the you know the pen [TS]

00:53:22   tracking and things like that Apple [TS]

00:53:24   feels superior to things like the [TS]

00:53:27   surface studio and the even though I [TS]

00:53:30   mean it's antiques quite obvious you [TS]

00:53:33   know the the cintiq tablets which are [TS]

00:53:35   made by Wacom are sort of like the de [TS]

00:53:36   facto industry standard you know any [TS]

00:53:38   design of it that earns enough money to [TS]

00:53:40   spend you know 1,500 2,000 dollars on it [TS]

00:53:43   is basically they're buying a pc with a [TS]

00:53:46   touchscreen glued to the front of it and [TS]

00:53:48   they lay it flat if you're not a [TS]

00:53:50   designer you know they lay it flat then [TS]

00:53:52   use the stylus directly on it therefore [TS]

00:53:55   directly drawing the line on the screen [TS]

00:53:56   it was like an iPad pro before and I [TS]

00:53:58   better not just analogize it throw it [TS]

00:54:02   backwards lens but the cintiq for many [TS]

00:54:04   years ruled the roost all right from [TS]

00:54:06   with designers and now I have this yet [TS]

00:54:09   I'm sure you do too but just because I [TS]

00:54:12   do happen to do a lot in apple stuff [TS]

00:54:14   when I'm looking at pictures even in [TS]

00:54:18   completely unrelated you know articles [TS]

00:54:20   or bhatia looking at desks I always look [TS]

00:54:25   at desks right and workspaces I'm [TS]

00:54:27   fascinated with workspaces you know from [TS]

00:54:29   machinists to the designers to anneal [TS]

00:54:33   anything else I think there's a lot of [TS]

00:54:34   fascination with a lot of fascinating [TS]

00:54:36   things to learn about a person by the [TS]

00:54:37   way they handle their workspace how [TS]

00:54:39   messy it is or how clean it is neither [TS]

00:54:41   of which are bad necessarily it's just [TS]

00:54:43   the person right how we move through [TS]

00:54:45   life you you made a keen observation [TS]

00:54:47   last week and one because our meeting [TS]

00:54:50   was held in in what they called the [TS]

00:54:52   machine shop but it's their design [TS]

00:54:55   realization lab where they take designs [TS]

00:54:59   that I guess are like CAD or just [TS]

00:55:02   prototypes and that it's a machine shop [TS]

00:55:05   where they take ideas for designs and [TS]

00:55:09   try to turn them into as realistic and a [TS]

00:55:12   realistic and approximation of what it [TS]

00:55:15   would actually be like as a real Apple [TS]

00:55:16   project as possible mm-hmm and I got the [TS]

00:55:21   feeling that a lot of that stuff was [TS]

00:55:22   just so that they can wing it around and [TS]

00:55:24   hold it and open and close open close [TS]

00:55:26   open close it and you know see how a [TS]

00:55:28   human like oh oh this feels really [TS]

00:55:30   awkward now that I hold it [TS]

00:55:31   made it as real as possible yeah but you [TS]

00:55:33   made the keen observation that will [TS]

00:55:35   looking around and they had a lot some [TS]

00:55:37   stuff covered with black drapes and they [TS]

00:55:39   obviously had shut down for the day they [TS]

00:55:40   said ordinarily there's a very noisy [TS]

00:55:42   facility for obvious reason but you made [TS]

00:55:46   the keen observation I thought of that [TS]

00:55:47   you could kind of see that they were [TS]

00:55:49   that some of the benches and stuff and [TS]

00:55:52   the machines were from different people [TS]

00:55:55   who work there because they were set up [TS]

00:55:56   in very different ways you know that [TS]

00:55:58   there's somebody who works at this spot [TS]

00:56:00   and that the person who works right [TS]

00:56:02   across this aisle from them is a [TS]

00:56:05   different person because there's their [TS]

00:56:07   tools were laid out in a different way [TS]

00:56:08   and I thought that was pretty [TS]

00:56:09   interesting yeah I mean I'm [TS]

00:56:12   hypersensitive to that I came from my [TS]

00:56:14   grandfather was a machinist and my dad [TS]

00:56:16   is a you know zach is a craftsman he's a [TS]

00:56:18   painter find our painter now but he for [TS]

00:56:21   many years was an install does works on [TS]

00:56:23   cars and all kinds of other stuff got [TS]

00:56:25   the same inclination obviously from his [TS]

00:56:26   dad I mean I'm I'm a dummy when it comes [TS]

00:56:29   to that stuff i just i can get my way [TS]

00:56:30   around but their workspace is always [TS]

00:56:33   fascinated with me with the like my [TS]

00:56:35   grandfather had a you know i don't know [TS]

00:56:39   what you call it a cabinet or whatever [TS]

00:56:42   which was he built himself cuz he's a [TS]

00:56:44   machinist so he worked in wood as well [TS]

00:56:46   and wood was like butter to him after [TS]

00:56:49   working on you know aircraft parts all [TS]

00:56:50   day and so we built like this cabinet [TS]

00:56:52   with these wooden drawers and there was [TS]

00:56:55   maybe i don't know 50 or 60 wooden [TS]

00:56:57   drawers and each one had a different [TS]

00:56:59   kind of thing in it like you know you go [TS]

00:57:02   like oh I need a washer like a split [TS]

00:57:05   lock washer and he's like oh right here [TS]

00:57:07   right and you look in and there's a [TS]

00:57:09   bunch of split water lock washers and [TS]

00:57:11   they're not new right there reclaimed [TS]

00:57:13   right there like like a little bit of [TS]

00:57:15   oil a grid on them but they're fine [TS]

00:57:16   right they're fine and he put some back [TS]

00:57:18   there and that way you know like hey I [TS]

00:57:20   got to fix this thing under the sink or [TS]

00:57:21   whatever he came from that generation [TS]

00:57:22   where it's like I'm gonna fix this thing [TS]

00:57:24   I'm gonna go out pull out a drawer grab [TS]

00:57:26   this thing and put it in I'm not gonna [TS]

00:57:27   go to the store and buy a whole new [TS]

00:57:28   faucet and he's not whatever and he's [TS]

00:57:30   also not going to jury rig it with with [TS]

00:57:33   an ill-fitting part and just so no no [TS]

00:57:36   scrappy together with a rag yeah [TS]

00:57:38   dripping he's gonna have the exact [TS]

00:57:40   washer that you need to make a complete [TS]

00:57:42   you know make the right fit right [TS]

00:57:45   they're right exactly in the same thing [TS]

00:57:47   with the tools you know all of the like [TS]

00:57:49   a punch or a work a pair of pliers or [TS]

00:57:52   clamp or anything like that's all all [TS]

00:57:54   laid out all kind of had its own place [TS]

00:57:56   used worn grimy whatever but they're [TS]

00:58:01   right and organized in some way to [TS]

00:58:03   according to his brain and I just saw [TS]

00:58:05   that reflected on the workspaces and I'm [TS]

00:58:07   not like you know this is the same in [TS]

00:58:09   machine shops around the world so I'm [TS]

00:58:10   not trying to say that Apple is some [TS]

00:58:12   sort of you know crazy special place I [TS]

00:58:14   just found it really nice to see because [TS]

00:58:18   it says hey these are craftsmen a lot of [TS]

00:58:20   people think about this like Johnny [TS]

00:58:22   designs it and some thing prints it out [TS]

00:58:25   you know overseas and that's it but you [TS]

00:58:27   know I think it is it is very important [TS]

00:58:30   for us to remember that as you don't [TS]

00:58:32   Steve said these are you know the world [TS]

00:58:34   is made up of people who are no smarter [TS]

00:58:37   than you then they made all these things [TS]

00:58:38   you know ll it is is they apply [TS]

00:58:41   themselves you know they put the effort [TS]

00:58:43   into learning how to do this and so you [TS]

00:58:45   see those wooden work boxes there with [TS]

00:58:48   the they're measuring tools and punches [TS]

00:58:51   and filing tools and those things all [TS]

00:58:54   laid out in different bits for their CNC [TS]

00:58:56   machines for the cutting machines and [TS]

00:58:58   all of that stuff laid out and you could [TS]

00:59:00   tell like a a man or woman works here [TS]

00:59:03   you know and they their personality live [TS]

00:59:05   in the sex yeah yeah exactly and so [TS]

00:59:08   while the machines themselves may have [TS]

00:59:10   the overall personality of somebody you [TS]

00:59:12   know that a lot of man hours and 11 [TS]

00:59:15   hours what are you gonna call I hate [TS]

00:59:16   that term eight hours but they went into [TS]

00:59:19   it and then it definitely rough was [TS]

00:59:22   reflected in the workspaces you know [TS]

00:59:23   what I found compelling but any I did [TS]

00:59:26   grass but like from the workspaces thing [TS]

00:59:28   I'm seeing more and more on more more [TS]

00:59:30   designers workspaces they'll have [TS]

00:59:32   whatever computer a mac or a pc or [TS]

00:59:34   whatever invariably though ipad pro and [TS]

00:59:38   a pencil hmm like everywhere like i was [TS]

00:59:41   reading an article about nike the other [TS]

00:59:42   day designing some shoe because i'm a [TS]

00:59:43   shoe fanatic and on the table in the [TS]

00:59:46   background ipad pro no pencil right I [TS]

00:59:49   think it's sort of gaining a lot of [TS]

00:59:51   traction in that industry and in that [TS]

00:59:54   field and an apple Caesar says an [TS]

00:59:56   opening for them to go hey we can serve [TS]

00:59:59   these [TS]

00:59:59   customers who have [TS]

00:59:59   customers who have [TS]

01:00:00   traditionally been very Apple centric [TS]

01:00:02   and we can hopefully not lose them but [TS]

01:00:06   at the same time hold to our beliefs [TS]

01:00:08   which I from their discussion during our [TS]

01:00:11   talk there they still very strongly [TS]

01:00:13   believe that touches does not belong on [TS]

01:00:15   that huge vertical monitor right you [TS]

01:00:17   know and so this is a way that they can [TS]

01:00:20   sort of serve both of those well and as [TS]

01:00:22   Craig joked you know also allows them to [TS]

01:00:24   sell more products yeah they do and [TS]

01:00:27   they're very upfront about that that [TS]

01:00:29   they like it when ya buy loads of apple [TS]

01:00:30   products that's the person who is a [TS]

01:00:34   recent iPad convert because of the ipad [TS]

01:00:37   pro and pencil who I found fascinating [TS]

01:00:39   and it was exactly what I suspected is [TS]

01:00:41   Jonathan Hoefler of Hoefler and company [TS]

01:00:44   though sure typographers and friend of [TS]

01:00:47   the show icon designer and I con artist [TS]

01:00:51   and and graphic designer illustrator [TS]

01:00:54   extraordinary Louie Mancha is getting [TS]

01:00:57   into creating his own typefaces and if I [TS]

01:01:01   this is like any super artistic person [TS]

01:01:05   it's it's not like you know he's so [TS]

01:01:07   talented I mean he can draw [TS]

01:01:08   illustrations he can make icons he can [TS]

01:01:10   do logos and he's drawing typefaces um [TS]

01:01:12   and put one up like a a through z [TS]

01:01:16   specimen up and asked Hoefler first [TS]

01:01:19   thoughts and Hoefler rather than just [TS]

01:01:21   tweet his response like took it and [TS]

01:01:23   marked it up with just a slew of of [TS]

01:01:28   thoughts and just little details and and [TS]

01:01:31   parts of a be that maybe should be the [TS]

01:01:33   mirror image of the d you know like a B [TS]

01:01:37   and a lowercase B and D and and other [TS]

01:01:39   areas where you think like as a kid you [TS]

01:01:41   grow up thinking Oh Abby and a dr just [TS]

01:01:43   mirror images well sometimes you want [TS]

01:01:45   them to be and sometimes you don't and [TS]

01:01:46   with explanations of why you know maybe [TS]

01:01:48   you'd want to take a bigger chunk out of [TS]

01:01:50   this or you want to have this be curved [TS]

01:01:52   or this Beach I found it as a as a as a [TS]

01:01:55   fan of typography who does not have the [TS]

01:01:58   artistic ability to create typography in [TS]

01:02:01   any way shape or form like there's no [TS]

01:02:04   chance that I could make a good looking [TS]

01:02:05   typeface none but I can appreciate a [TS]

01:02:08   good typeface and I'd like to think at [TS]

01:02:12   least that I can appreciate that [TS]

01:02:13   difference between a good typeface and a [TS]

01:02:15   great typeface and I found his mark up [TS]

01:02:18   to be fascinating from a typographic [TS]

01:02:20   level but then I was also interested in [TS]

01:02:22   how did he make this mock-up and he [TS]

01:02:24   write like of course you would ask and [TS]

01:02:26   he said that it on Twitter huh Fleur [TS]

01:02:28   said that he switched he got an ipad pro [TS]

01:02:32   like a year ago and took to it and I [TS]

01:02:34   forget what jab he's using but it's like [TS]

01:02:36   I think it's like PDF pro PDF Expert I [TS]

01:02:38   one of the third-party PDF markup apps [TS]

01:02:41   and that it was so good for him that he [TS]

01:02:47   got ipad pros for the entire company and [TS]

01:02:49   they switched their entire crit critique [TS]

01:02:53   process for typefaces from paper to PDFs [TS]

01:02:57   and it was all specifically it never [TS]

01:02:59   could have happened before the iPad prom [TS]

01:03:00   pencil and that they're a loving it [TS]

01:03:03   they're way more efficient and be there [TS]

01:03:05   saving like eight thousand sheets of [TS]

01:03:07   paper a day right right like an unlit I [TS]

01:03:11   don't know what exactly said but it was [TS]

01:03:13   you can imagine how many you know a [TS]

01:03:15   company full of type designers who do [TS]

01:03:17   lots of critiques and and lots of [TS]

01:03:19   iterations over and over and over again [TS]

01:03:20   and every letter that they're saving an [TS]

01:03:22   awful lot of yepper and they've got now [TS]

01:03:24   they've got a paper trail of the [TS]

01:03:26   evolution of a typeface that is [TS]

01:03:28   electronically you know searchable and [TS]

01:03:30   doesn't need to be archived in filing [TS]

01:03:32   cabinet or something like that anyway I [TS]

01:03:33   thought that was interesting yeah i mean [TS]

01:03:36   like as a long time you know scouting i [TS]

01:03:39   came come from a family of artists and I [TS]

01:03:41   never fully went down that path there [TS]

01:03:43   was like a brief period where I thought [TS]

01:03:44   I was gonna be a fine artist and I went [TS]

01:03:46   into I went more into the photographic [TS]

01:03:48   side of things but I did take all of the [TS]

01:03:51   required you know drawing classes life [TS]

01:03:55   drawing etc sewing and I could I could [TS]

01:03:57   still sketch you a reclining nude if you [TS]

01:03:59   want one but the that process of like [TS]

01:04:03   pencil to paper the way everybody holds [TS]

01:04:06   a pencil every artist holds one slightly [TS]

01:04:08   differently different angle different [TS]

01:04:09   inflection and it feels organic and [TS]

01:04:12   natural to them and a typical stylist [TS]

01:04:14   requires that you have a fairly precise [TS]

01:04:16   specific angle on it to make it react to [TS]

01:04:20   the surface in a certain way and the [TS]

01:04:22   pencil doesn't I mean you within a [TS]

01:04:24   certain bounds you can't go as extreme [TS]

01:04:26   as you can [TS]

01:04:27   with a pencil but you can go a lot more [TS]

01:04:29   extreme because of the way that they [TS]

01:04:31   built it and a way of course that they [TS]

01:04:32   built the screen to match it whereas [TS]

01:04:35   most people are working with a fairly [TS]

01:04:36   standard touch screen and then mating [TS]

01:04:39   whatever you know Swizzle they can get [TS]

01:04:41   in a stylist to it to try and make it [TS]

01:04:43   feel more organic you know you've seen [TS]

01:04:45   the ones with the little disks at the [TS]

01:04:46   tip so that you could see what's under [TS]

01:04:48   the stylist and all that but it's really [TS]

01:04:50   the hold of the pencil that is the most [TS]

01:04:52   important thing and I find it amazing [TS]

01:04:54   that you can you know do a four finger [TS]

01:04:56   hold on a pencil and shade and then you [TS]

01:04:59   can flip it and do a standard stylist [TS]

01:05:02   type hold and so on and so forth and I [TS]

01:05:04   think that that organic way that those [TS]

01:05:06   work coupled with the very incredibly [TS]

01:05:10   low latency on the screen are just [TS]

01:05:13   selling people on it the moment that [TS]

01:05:15   they try it or work can figure out a way [TS]

01:05:17   to work it into their workflow and I [TS]

01:05:20   think that if they if Apple can leverage [TS]

01:05:21   that and use that as a way to say you [TS]

01:05:23   don't need touch because you've already [TS]

01:05:24   got all the touch you need here I think [TS]

01:05:27   that you know it could work it could [TS]

01:05:29   work for that pro all right I've looked [TS]

01:05:31   it up I've got it in the show notes but [TS]

01:05:33   I've got the whole thread on Twitter of [TS]

01:05:35   this typeface critique and the app that [TS]

01:05:37   I've learned is don't have foreign [TS]

01:05:39   company Heffel Durant is company are [TS]

01:05:41   using specifically is notability [TS]

01:05:43   notability or is it notability pro no [TS]

01:05:46   notability app which he describes as the [TS]

01:05:48   only app that he's ever felt feels like [TS]

01:05:51   a real pen uh damn so anyway it's a [TS]

01:05:55   great app I do have it don't really have [TS]

01:05:57   a need for like he does but boy it's [TS]

01:05:58   great and I agree with what you said I [TS]

01:06:00   really do it did come up though I came [TS]

01:06:04   up at the meeting as to whether they're [TS]

01:06:05   overworking on touchscreen meant at max [TS]

01:06:08   I feel like it's a it's the question [TS]

01:06:10   that will never go away until one day [TS]

01:06:14   they find out a way to do it nobody says [TS]

01:06:16   see and they're like well you know we [TS]

01:06:18   were just waiting or what I I don't [TS]

01:06:19   think they will I really don't I think [TS]

01:06:22   that they could do it and shut people up [TS]

01:06:23   but I feel like it's a bad idea let's [TS]

01:06:27   hold that thought and I'll explain why I [TS]

01:06:29   think it really is a bad idea and I [TS]

01:06:31   don't think I think some people suspect [TS]

01:06:33   that it's oh they know touch is the [TS]

01:06:35   future and they just want people to this [TS]

01:06:38   it's all hinges on this theory that they [TS]

01:06:40   that [TS]

01:06:41   quote unquote want everybody to use a [TS]

01:06:42   macbook pro or iPad pro use an iPad pro [TS]

01:06:45   and so they're starving the mac of [TS]

01:06:48   touchscreens out of spite to encourage [TS]

01:06:52   people to buy ipad pros which i think is [TS]

01:06:54   nonsense um but I think that's the [TS]

01:06:57   working theory of the otherwise it makes [TS]

01:07:00   no sense why the Mac has no touchscreen [TS]

01:07:02   whereas I think that they're great I [TS]

01:07:04   think what Apple is saying about the mag [TS]

01:07:05   and touchscreen is the literal truth [TS]

01:07:07   that it's a bad combination of form [TS]

01:07:10   factor and in the UI design anyway let [TS]

01:07:15   me take a break though and thank our [TS]

01:07:17   next sponsor it is hello h ull oh hello [TS]

01:07:23   pillow have you ever tried a buckwheat [TS]

01:07:25   pillow they are totally different than [TS]

01:07:27   the fluffy soft pillows most of us are [TS]

01:07:30   used to it's similar to a bean bag which [TS]

01:07:32   allows you to adjust its shape and [TS]

01:07:34   thickness I've been using a hollow [TS]

01:07:37   pillow we actually have two of them one [TS]

01:07:38   on each side of the bed I like mine and [TS]

01:07:42   I like it a lot my wife actually comes [TS]

01:07:46   back when we come back from vacation she [TS]

01:07:48   actually complains that she actually [TS]

01:07:51   mrs. that's how much she misses her [TS]

01:07:52   hollow pillow we go away for a week and [TS]

01:07:55   she's like oh my god she's totally no [TS]

01:08:00   longer like sleeping on even on a really [TS]

01:08:03   nice bed without a hollow pillow we've [TS]

01:08:06   had it i just gotta be at least a year [TS]

01:08:08   maybe longer and it's i can't imagine [TS]

01:08:11   what it was like without it we really [TS]

01:08:13   like them here's what it's like it's [TS]

01:08:16   like a bean bag it's very heavy for a [TS]

01:08:18   pillow heavy for a pillow at least it [TS]

01:08:19   supports your head and neck how you want [TS]

01:08:22   it and unlike traditional squishy soft [TS]

01:08:24   pillows which collapse under the weight [TS]

01:08:26   of your head hello pillows hold their [TS]

01:08:29   form it also stays cool and dry compared [TS]

01:08:33   to pillows fed with feathers or foam [TS]

01:08:35   because there's air between these little [TS]

01:08:38   buck wheat husks that are that it's sort [TS]

01:08:42   of our the quote-unquote beans in the [TS]

01:08:44   bean bag no matter what happens there [TS]

01:08:46   remains air in there and it keeps stuff [TS]

01:08:48   flowing and so it doesn't get hot [TS]

01:08:51   it's really great ours have been like I [TS]

01:08:53   said we've had them for at least a year [TS]

01:08:55   they last great it doesn't seem like [TS]

01:08:56   it's any different than it was when it [TS]

01:08:57   was brand new it's really great do you [TS]

01:09:01   use two pillows or fold your pillow in [TS]

01:09:03   an attempt for proper support well [TS]

01:09:05   that's a sign that your pillow isn't [TS]

01:09:06   firm or thick enough hello pillows [TS]

01:09:08   support allows you to keep your head up [TS]

01:09:10   with just one pillow it's very true it's [TS]

01:09:14   very different than a regular pillow [TS]

01:09:15   you're going to open a box you got to [TS]

01:09:17   say it really is like a beanbag and [TS]

01:09:18   you're going to think there is no way [TS]

01:09:19   that this thing is actually going to be [TS]

01:09:22   a good pillow because it is so unlike [TS]

01:09:24   traditional fluffy pillow here's the [TS]

01:09:27   deal though they're so confident on it [TS]

01:09:29   they're going to give you a 60 night [TS]

01:09:31   guarantee so go ahead and try it that's [TS]

01:09:33   it hello hu LLO pillow calm / talk show [TS]

01:09:38   just hello hello pillow calm / talk show [TS]

01:09:41   and you'll get 60 nights and you can [TS]

01:09:44   just send it back if you don't like it [TS]

01:09:45   but you probably won't because you're [TS]

01:09:46   probably gonna like it here's what you [TS]

01:09:50   get with that deal you get a discount of [TS]

01:09:52   up to twenty dollars per pillow [TS]

01:09:53   depending on the size you'll find out [TS]

01:09:55   when you go to pick out your size and [TS]

01:09:57   you get fast free shipping on every [TS]

01:10:00   order and they even add contribute one [TS]

01:10:03   percent of all their profits to the [TS]

01:10:05   Nature Conservancy so there you go next [TS]

01:10:08   time you need a pillow check out hello [TS]

01:10:09   pillow calm / talk show my thanks to [TS]

01:10:12   them for sponsoring the show great [TS]

01:10:14   product what are we talking about I [TS]

01:10:17   always forget no touchscreen Madame's to [TS]

01:10:23   scream at I get into I get into that's [TS]

01:10:25   no I I get hypnotized by my own sponsor [TS]

01:10:27   like wheat pillows yeah so think about [TS]

01:10:33   like the one that and I'm not saying [TS]

01:10:36   it's a bad design but I feel like the [TS]

01:10:38   trade-offs are too much so people are [TS]

01:10:40   you know talking about the the windows [TS]

01:10:44   surface file tablets where the you can [TS]

01:10:49   dock it to a keyboard part and then you [TS]

01:10:51   can undock it somehow and then the [TS]

01:10:54   screen is a standalone tablet with a [TS]

01:10:58   separate processor and its own little [TS]

01:11:00   battery [TS]

01:11:03   it is to me it's a worse tablet than an [TS]

01:11:06   iPad because it's it's it can't have [TS]

01:11:10   it's not doesn't have a full-strength [TS]

01:11:12   processor the full strength processor is [TS]

01:11:13   in the base but it's so it's worse as a [TS]

01:11:18   tablet but it's also worse as a laptop [TS]

01:11:21   because then the screen of the laptop [TS]

01:11:24   when it's in laptop mode is thicker [TS]

01:11:26   especially compared to the new macbooks [TS]

01:11:28   and macbook pros like one of the best [TS]

01:11:31   little things and it's like I can write [TS]

01:11:34   about it but I don't feel like it's ever [TS]

01:11:35   convincing to someone until they [TS]

01:11:37   actually try it for awhile is how much [TS]

01:11:40   nicer the screen opens on a Mac on the [TS]

01:11:43   latest macbook pros like I'm still using [TS]

01:11:45   as my daily driver I still have a [TS]

01:11:47   two-and-a-half-year-old 13-inch macbook [TS]

01:11:50   pro from the previous design and it [TS]

01:11:53   still suits my needs because on a day to [TS]

01:11:55   day basis the imac is my main computer [TS]

01:11:57   and it's this is an imax the do what I [TS]

01:11:59   tend to do with my max is when I do buy [TS]

01:12:01   a new one I just max it out I get the [TS]

01:12:03   fastest and I get the most ram and I get [TS]

01:12:05   the biggest SSD and then use it for [TS]

01:12:08   years until I feel like I really need a [TS]

01:12:10   new computer and then max one ad again [TS]

01:12:12   rather than upgrade like every year or [TS]

01:12:15   so to a mid-range computer or something [TS]

01:12:16   like that I think of everything else on [TS]

01:12:20   the new after getting those review units [TS]

01:12:23   of the new macbook pros the thing that I [TS]

01:12:25   miss the most isn't the touch bar and it [TS]

01:12:28   isn't touch ID although touch ID is [TS]

01:12:30   closed it's the the way that it opens [TS]

01:12:34   and closes that's it's so light the [TS]

01:12:37   screen is so light and thin and the [TS]

01:12:39   hinge is so much better that it's just [TS]

01:12:42   effortless it always goes it just lifts [TS]

01:12:45   the base never comes up when you lift it [TS]

01:12:47   the base never right shift Swami face [TS]

01:12:49   thing the fobby base syndrome was like [TS]

01:12:51   it was always a huge issue for me on [TS]

01:12:53   what aires yes and macbooks i just got [TS]

01:12:57   used to I used an 11-inch macbook air [TS]

01:12:59   for years and liked it in so many ways [TS]

01:13:01   and I just had it out recently to do a [TS]

01:13:05   battery test on it and I still love the [TS]

01:13:08   form factor when it's closed but opening [TS]

01:13:10   and closing it is sort of a two hand [TS]

01:13:12   operation or a pinch finger operation [TS]

01:13:15   because it [TS]

01:13:16   just like you said a floppy base the new [TS]

01:13:18   MacBook Pros have the best feel of a [TS]

01:13:21   laptop opening and closing of any device [TS]

01:13:23   I've ever seen in my life but the the [TS]

01:13:26   part of that though is that the screen [TS]

01:13:29   part the part that you move up and down [TS]

01:13:31   if you could magically detach that it's [TS]

01:13:35   way too thin to be a tablet it wouldn't [TS]

01:13:37   have any room for a battery it's way too [TS]

01:13:38   thin and light there's no way that that [TS]

01:13:40   could be a tablet and if you wanted to [TS]

01:13:42   turn it into a tablet you'd end up with [TS]

01:13:44   a device with a totally different [TS]

01:13:46   balance of weight and and etc it's [TS]

01:13:49   almost inverted really because the [TS]

01:13:50   keyboard would be on the bottom that's [TS]

01:13:51   it well and that's it and that has [TS]

01:13:53   struck me with the iPad pro with a smart [TS]

01:13:56   keep keyboard like I get it if you to me [TS]

01:13:59   that that configuration of using an iPad [TS]

01:14:01   with a smart keyboard or even a third [TS]

01:14:04   party like a logitech keyboard with a [TS]

01:14:06   you know click click keys it's so [TS]

01:14:09   top-heavy I can see it if if your goal [TS]

01:14:13   is I love my iPad so much that I want to [TS]

01:14:15   use it for more stuff and I want to use [TS]

01:14:18   it for writing and so for you know [TS]

01:14:19   writing I want to have a real hardware [TS]

01:14:21   keyboard there you know therefore being [TS]

01:14:24   able to do it and do it with a smart [TS]

01:14:26   connector for the ease of you know [TS]

01:14:28   hooking it up and unhooking it up that's [TS]

01:14:30   great but it's so inferior just as a [TS]

01:14:33   laptop compared to a real macbook pro [TS]

01:14:36   like putting the software aside and your [TS]

01:14:39   preference for iOS over mac OS or vice [TS]

01:14:41   versa just the art the action of opening [TS]

01:14:44   and closing it and putting it away you [TS]

01:14:46   can't beat the macbook pro with with a [TS]

01:14:49   tablet that docks to a keyboard right [TS]

01:14:52   it's like you could you could have your [TS]

01:14:54   macbook pro open close it realize you [TS]

01:14:58   forgot to do one last thing reopen it [TS]

01:15:01   and especially if you're using the Apple [TS]

01:15:04   watch to unlock it or use touch ID be [TS]

01:15:07   logged back in before somebody else [TS]

01:15:10   could close up an iPad pro and get the [TS]

01:15:12   smart keyboard fold it up it's you know [TS]

01:15:15   again I'm not saying that that means [TS]

01:15:17   iPad pro with smart keyboard or a [TS]

01:15:19   Logitech keyboard is a bad design but it [TS]

01:15:22   certainly is a huge trade off in terms [TS]

01:15:24   of just just the art of opening and [TS]

01:15:27   closing the laptop [TS]

01:15:29   and so I just don't see I'm curious to [TS]

01:15:32   see so like me I've had a couple of the [TS]

01:15:36   surfaces have had the surface pro 3 and [TS]

01:15:37   surface pro 4 and I found them to be you [TS]

01:15:40   know interesting devices that just [TS]

01:15:42   really got schizophrenic in the software [TS]

01:15:44   so like the hardware I wasn't you know [TS]

01:15:46   the surface pro 3 was okay the four was [TS]

01:15:48   better hardware wise not too bad the [TS]

01:15:52   software was just super schizophrenic [TS]

01:15:54   because it was trying to be two things [TS]

01:15:55   at once you know trying to be touch and [TS]

01:15:57   mouse and all of that and mashed into [TS]

01:15:59   one which is Apple's constant refrain [TS]

01:16:01   that they don't want to run into that [TS]

01:16:03   problem and I agree having used you know [TS]

01:16:06   Windows 10 on a surface pro 4 it just it [TS]

01:16:09   still felt really schizophrenic to me [TS]

01:16:11   and I I don't think that it's unusable [TS]

01:16:14   right so I think there are plenty of [TS]

01:16:16   people out there that can get used to it [TS]

01:16:17   I am very curious though people are [TS]

01:16:20   saying hey you know surfaces are selling [TS]

01:16:22   more devices obviously their quarterly [TS]

01:16:24   reproach reports show that they have [TS]

01:16:26   something there right there's something [TS]

01:16:27   there that people like and maybe that is [TS]

01:16:30   the pitch of having the all-in-one so [TS]

01:16:32   they don't have to buy a tablet in a [TS]

01:16:33   computer you know that marketing is [TS]

01:16:35   working and then people get the devices [TS]

01:16:37   and they like them enough to keep them [TS]

01:16:38   and so that's working but I'm very [TS]

01:16:41   curious to see what will happen one [TS]

01:16:42   generation out when people go I mean how [TS]

01:16:45   exhausting was using that you know how [TS]

01:16:48   exhausting was this constant caught [TS]

01:16:50   being caught in between two worlds and [TS]

01:16:52   so I think Microsoft has an opportunity [TS]

01:16:53   right now this sort of gap of time where [TS]

01:16:56   they've got a little traction and it's [TS]

01:16:58   going well and so the positive word of [TS]

01:16:59   mouth is causing more more people to try [TS]

01:17:01   that that paradigm out where they have a [TS]

01:17:03   chance to figure it out and maybe they [TS]

01:17:05   can write maybe they can suss something [TS]

01:17:06   out and they figure it out and it's like [TS]

01:17:08   wow this is this really hits the mark [TS]

01:17:10   and the surface book obviously is a nod [TS]

01:17:12   to that trying to they're trying to [TS]

01:17:14   Swiss trying to find their their niche [TS]

01:17:16   to like put that clawing and that's [TS]

01:17:19   great but i think that apple looks at [TS]

01:17:21   that and goes why would we do that when [TS]

01:17:23   we have these two more pure devices that [TS]

01:17:26   we feel service just different needs [TS]

01:17:29   completely and that's our philosophy [TS]

01:17:31   like hit these nails straight rather [TS]

01:17:33   than trying to hit the nail in at an [TS]

01:17:35   angle to try and catch both boards or [TS]

01:17:37   whatever yeah and I think it fits with [TS]

01:17:38   apples philosophy of we're not going to [TS]

01:17:41   we're not going to create enough devices [TS]

01:17:43   to come [TS]

01:17:44   every possible desire we're going to [TS]

01:17:46   have a fewer number of devices and and [TS]

01:17:50   hopefully have them meet almost [TS]

01:17:53   everybody's needs and it almost comes [TS]

01:17:55   back to the fact that I I suspect that [TS]

01:17:57   there might have been an inkling to you [TS]

01:18:00   two years ago to a year ago where maybe [TS]

01:18:03   they thought they could even get rid of [TS]

01:18:04   the mac pro and just have imax and [TS]

01:18:06   macbook pros that they were you know if [TS]

01:18:09   anything I think that they were leaning [TS]

01:18:10   towards having fewer configurations of [TS]

01:18:12   Max then adding more by adding something [TS]

01:18:15   like a surface studio mm-hmm and that [TS]

01:18:20   gets ass I've said this before many [TS]

01:18:21   times but it's you know there's all [TS]

01:18:23   sorts of things on screen on a Mac that [TS]

01:18:26   are just are not conducive to touch just [TS]

01:18:29   in terms of how big they are and you [TS]

01:18:32   know I've done it I know you know people [TS]

01:18:34   feel strike I get a lot email about this [TS]

01:18:37   but uh I've I've done it myself I am an [TS]

01:18:41   anti screen touch her I i liked it i [TS]

01:18:43   generally i will sometimes buy a new [TS]

01:18:45   macbook and and it might I might go [TS]

01:18:48   hopefully many many months before any [TS]

01:18:51   human being ever touches the dessert [TS]

01:18:54   display right yeah I'm a hover hander [TS]

01:18:58   myself I mean I I like to stay I screen [TS]

01:19:00   it makes me very nervous like people [TS]

01:19:02   might get nervous there was a scene in [TS]

01:19:03   The Walking Dead this week where you [TS]

01:19:07   know without revealing anything in [TS]

01:19:09   explores but there was a character [TS]

01:19:10   threatening another character by holding [TS]

01:19:12   a knife very very close to this [TS]

01:19:13   characters I ball for a very long time [TS]

01:19:17   and it bhisma I I can only have they had [TS]

01:19:20   to have done it with computer graphics [TS]

01:19:21   because there's no way they it looked [TS]

01:19:23   too convincing that this but it was very [TS]

01:19:25   nerve-racking to see a character with a [TS]

01:19:27   knife held right in front of his open [TS]

01:19:29   eye ball during a threatening situation [TS]

01:19:31   for a long period that's how I feel when [TS]

01:19:33   I see somebody reach towards a non touch [TS]

01:19:35   display with the right to try and point [TS]

01:19:38   at a document yeah I get nervous is when [TS]

01:19:41   they as soon as they start boy um i [TS]

01:19:43   would rather and the thing is i might [TS]

01:19:46   touch phobia with screens goes even [TS]

01:19:48   further i would rather not clean it then [TS]

01:19:51   touch it is that weird like I've Mike [TS]

01:19:54   screams like I often have like I open up [TS]

01:19:56   my macbook ago [TS]

01:19:57   wow this has like maybe its knees [TS]

01:20:00   residue maybe it's dust I don't know [TS]

01:20:02   like eventually gets bad enough to where [TS]

01:20:04   you have to clean it but I'd almost [TS]

01:20:05   rather not touch it because then I'm [TS]

01:20:07   afraid I'm gonna clean it and this can [TS]

01:20:08   be spongy at the corners no-win scenario [TS]

01:20:13   in my days as a graphic designer I [TS]

01:20:15   remember I would work with people who [TS]

01:20:17   were screen touchers themselves back in [TS]

01:20:19   the CRT era and I'd you know we'd be [TS]

01:20:22   Colet you know like hey let me show me [TS]

01:20:24   show you this is what do you think about [TS]

01:20:25   this and they'd start pointing to the [TS]

01:20:26   screen and touching it I'd be like what [TS]

01:20:28   what are you doing it's just great why [TS]

01:20:31   why did you scream uh-uh big smeary [TS]

01:20:35   snail trails across it all right all [TS]

01:20:38   that said yeah after back when the first [TS]

01:20:42   ipad pro came out and i had a review [TS]

01:20:44   unit and and I did what I tried to [TS]

01:20:46   always do is immerse myself in it by [TS]

01:20:48   doing as much of my computing on it as [TS]

01:20:51   possible during the review period [TS]

01:20:52   including writing the review itself [TS]

01:20:54   using it um and then when I was done [TS]

01:20:58   like a day later or so I was using my [TS]

01:21:00   macbook pro and I went over and I tried [TS]

01:21:02   to scroll I remember exactly which Apple [TS]

01:21:05   was it was tweetbot and I think the fact [TS]

01:21:07   that tweetbot it sort of shares a [TS]

01:21:09   aesthetic with the iOS version helped [TS]

01:21:12   write me in I touched my macbook pro [TS]

01:21:14   screen and tried to scroll it so I get [TS]

01:21:17   it if it happened to me I could see how [TS]

01:21:18   it could happen to do more people where [TS]

01:21:21   they just want to scroll by touching the [TS]

01:21:23   screen or whatever but you can't it's [TS]

01:21:26   it's and I get it it's not pretty though [TS]

01:21:28   it's just not pretty like I mean in [TS]

01:21:31   terms of the physical interaction it's [TS]

01:21:33   not pretty I've seen it happen like I've [TS]

01:21:35   even been like at events and stuff and [TS]

01:21:37   I've seen people with touchscreen you [TS]

01:21:39   know max or whatever and they're [TS]

01:21:41   hurrying to file that's like a reporter [TS]

01:21:43   you know they're hurrying to file their [TS]

01:21:44   story and they're bashing away and maybe [TS]

01:21:47   they go to close up or whatever and [TS]

01:21:49   they're trying to do a couple last [TS]

01:21:50   things or even if they're like reading [TS]

01:21:51   news while they're doing it they're [TS]

01:21:53   scrolling they reach up and let's do [TS]

01:21:55   this sort of thing where they they're [TS]

01:21:56   pulling the laptop in and half closing [TS]

01:21:59   it and using the screen with their [TS]

01:22:00   thumbs like stuff like that which I look [TS]

01:22:03   at it and go you know I get it it's kind [TS]

01:22:05   of nice to be able to have this duel [TS]

01:22:08   mode thing where you're like clickety [TS]

01:22:09   clackety clickety clack and then [TS]

01:22:11   there's a big touch target and you want [TS]

01:22:12   to just touch it really quick or perhaps [TS]

01:22:14   like some some interactions might make [TS]

01:22:17   sense like swiping on the screen to move [TS]

01:22:19   an entire desktop space right thank that [TS]

01:22:21   makes a ton of sense to me logically you [TS]

01:22:23   know philosophically but just going like [TS]

01:22:25   hunt I've seen I'm also hunting to try [TS]

01:22:28   and click buttons if they really should [TS]

01:22:29   have click with the mouse but the touch [TS]

01:22:31   pads are so shitty on those on those [TS]

01:22:33   particular computers or the they don't [TS]

01:22:35   have a mouse right that they're just [TS]

01:22:37   like right and then you know you hit the [TS]

01:22:40   target wrong because the thumb is really [TS]

01:22:42   calculated to hit it right and all this [TS]

01:22:44   stuff you know they don't do what Apple [TS]

01:22:46   does to offset the target you know all [TS]

01:22:49   of that and remember there's not a [TS]

01:22:51   predictable angle that they're hitting [TS]

01:22:52   it from you know because it's a laptop [TS]

01:22:54   screen within with your phone Apple has [TS]

01:22:56   offset the key targets so where they're [TS]

01:22:59   not over the keys they're actually [TS]

01:23:00   slightly above the keys because of the [TS]

01:23:02   parallax the way you look at it and the [TS]

01:23:03   way you type on it and so when people go [TS]

01:23:05   whack it they don't realize they're [TS]

01:23:06   hitting above the key but it's still [TS]

01:23:08   hitting the key and like that kind of [TS]

01:23:09   thing they can't do because it's [TS]

01:23:11   unpredictable how people are gonna touch [TS]

01:23:12   them so I think there's a lot of hurdles [TS]

01:23:14   that manifest themselves in the weird [TS]

01:23:17   gymnastics people do when they start [TS]

01:23:18   actually interacting with those kinds of [TS]

01:23:19   screens you know especially laptops you [TS]

01:23:22   whack it and it tilts backwards and [TS]

01:23:23   flops back down and all this stuff you [TS]

01:23:25   know right you'd almost want to build [TS]

01:23:26   one it probably has more resistance than [TS]

01:23:28   the current macbook pros resistance and [TS]

01:23:31   in terms of resistance to whether it [TS]

01:23:33   moves down but not in the electrical [TS]

01:23:35   sense um yeah yeah there's also a kind [TS]

01:23:39   of a fundamental difference between [TS]

01:23:40   tapping and clicking like when you just [TS]

01:23:43   if you had a touchscreen Mac and you [TS]

01:23:45   just touch the screen and then start [TS]

01:23:47   dragging did that touch count as a click [TS]

01:23:49   and then a drag or is it just that's [TS]

01:23:53   just where you start dragging and if you [TS]

01:23:55   think about that it's totally different [TS]

01:23:57   both ways but you would want it [TS]

01:23:59   sometimes you'd want one and sometimes [TS]

01:24:01   you'd want the other like how how do you [TS]

01:24:04   differentiate between scrolling and a [TS]

01:24:06   Finder window full of icons and by [TS]

01:24:10   touching and moving your finger and [TS]

01:24:12   dragging an icon so you can drag and [TS]

01:24:16   drop by touching and dragging it's the [TS]

01:24:18   exact same gesture you put your finger [TS]

01:24:20   on the screen and it happens to be on [TS]

01:24:22   top of an icon and you [TS]

01:24:24   it does it start dragging or does it [TS]

01:24:26   start scrolling the view of icons mm-hmm [TS]

01:24:28   right it's there's two things that you [TS]

01:24:31   want the same gesture to do and on the [TS]

01:24:33   with the mouse pointer it's it's easily [TS]

01:24:36   solved because it only does the drag if [TS]

01:24:38   you click before you move it you know it [TS]

01:24:42   all sorts of problems that open up like [TS]

01:24:44   that and it all gets very messy and I [TS]

01:24:46   feel like most of the people who are [TS]

01:24:48   kind of hoping that apple would do this [TS]

01:24:50   haven't really thought through any of [TS]

01:24:51   those issues and and would be right at [TS]

01:24:54   least in some ways would be dissatisfied [TS]

01:24:55   with the result because they would see a [TS]

01:24:58   dis loppy whereas it it's really not [TS]

01:25:01   it's that there's no there is no easy [TS]

01:25:03   solution to it there's no way to make [TS]

01:25:05   putting your finger on the screen and [TS]

01:25:07   dragging it do both scroll the view and [TS]

01:25:10   drag and drop the item you know and iOS [TS]

01:25:14   gets away with it but not having dragons [TS]

01:25:16   it's like we'll just cannot do that uh [TS]

01:25:19   yeah and that's the thing they could do [TS]

01:25:21   by burning it down so to speak right the [TS]

01:25:22   interface a layer anders things like [TS]

01:25:25   onto iOS where maybe they're going to do [TS]

01:25:27   drag and drop because now they're adding [TS]

01:25:29   the haptic engine and you can ya get a [TS]

01:25:32   touch and drag and a click and drag on [TS]

01:25:34   the iOS but even if you thought well [TS]

01:25:37   that's then there's your solution for [TS]

01:25:38   mac OS for a touchscreen but now you're [TS]

01:25:41   making the top of the macbook even [TS]

01:25:43   thicker than it was already again [TS]

01:25:46   another layer of thickness you're adding [TS]

01:25:47   which is all problematic and if you want [TS]

01:25:50   to be able to press it hard enough to [TS]

01:25:51   get a 3d touch you've got to make the [TS]

01:25:53   you know the hinge has to be even firmer [TS]

01:25:55   etc etc etc I don't want to go down this [TS]

01:25:59   route any further but I think I think [TS]

01:26:01   it's a bad idea and I think it's a [TS]

01:26:03   rabbit hole right it really is and you [TS]

01:26:05   once you start going down it you find [TS]

01:26:08   yourself mixing metaphors and i think [TS]

01:26:10   that's that's something that's apples [TS]

01:26:12   super allergic to if you have a touch [TS]

01:26:14   metaphor that works on the ipad why [TS]

01:26:18   would you introduce a completely [TS]

01:26:19   separate metaphor for the same exact [TS]

01:26:20   action on a desktop machine and the [TS]

01:26:23   answer of course the easy answer is 0 [TS]

01:26:25   because desktops different but i don't [TS]

01:26:27   think Apple views it that way I think [TS]

01:26:28   they view it well if it's different then [TS]

01:26:30   why are you trying to like shoehorn this [TS]

01:26:32   inner this interaction methodology onto [TS]

01:26:35   it and i think that's that's where they [TS]

01:26:37   they don't want to [TS]

01:26:38   and answers for what happens when I [TS]

01:26:40   touch things you know they just want one [TS]

01:26:43   answer right i think that's that's the [TS]

01:26:45   kind of the key there right and I feel [TS]

01:26:48   like the way like part of the brilliance [TS]

01:26:50   of the original iphone design was that [TS]

01:26:56   they had I'm sure entire whiteboards [TS]

01:27:01   full of these issues to resolve over [TS]

01:27:03   what happened when you just touch what [TS]

01:27:05   happens when you drag what happens you [TS]

01:27:07   know and came up with okay this is what [TS]

01:27:10   will happen when you do this is what you [TS]

01:27:12   happen when you do that and came up with [TS]

01:27:14   an overall design that when you [TS]

01:27:16   presented it to our normal person they [TS]

01:27:18   didn't realize any of those things had [TS]

01:27:20   been designed that it all felt natural [TS]

01:27:23   that yes this is just you just put your [TS]

01:27:26   finger on the screen and swipe it and it [TS]

01:27:27   starts dragging the view and etc etc you [TS]

01:27:31   know you just touch the button and let [TS]

01:27:33   go and the button is activated right [TS]

01:27:35   yeah hot I think they're they're gonna [TS]

01:27:41   ask the walk into a world of hurt if [TS]

01:27:43   they start saying different things [TS]

01:27:45   happen when you touch different things [TS]

01:27:46   simply because they have come so far [TS]

01:27:49   instructing people on the one to one you [TS]

01:27:54   know then the what the one to one is [TS]

01:27:55   like their mantra you know and it was [TS]

01:27:57   it's something that they didn't invent [TS]

01:27:59   but they did perfect and popularize and [TS]

01:28:02   I think that that is you don't want to [TS]

01:28:05   give up ownership of that by going oh [TS]

01:28:07   just kidding that's not actually what we [TS]

01:28:09   believe I don't know yeah you're walking [TS]

01:28:11   into a problem there all right I don't [TS]

01:28:14   believe fundamentally I do not believe [TS]

01:28:16   that all computers should be touchscreen [TS]

01:28:18   I think most should be and I think most [TS]

01:28:22   clearly already are because I think you [TS]

01:28:24   should count phones as touch screens or [TS]

01:28:26   as computers and overwhelm if you [TS]

01:28:29   combine iPhones and Android phones it's [TS]

01:28:30   you know it's over they overwhelm all [TS]

01:28:32   the other personal computers and use in [TS]

01:28:34   the world today let alone tablets and [TS]

01:28:38   anything else that might have a touch [TS]

01:28:39   screen but I don't think all should I [TS]

01:28:41   think there's a place for a [TS]

01:28:42   non-touchscreen mouse and keyboard it is [TS]

01:28:47   kind of anyway yeah yeah nike I mean [TS]

01:28:50   intersects with the whole nother [TS]

01:28:51   discussion of [TS]

01:28:51   voice but that's literally a hold of [TS]

01:28:53   there that's a whole other thing let me [TS]

01:28:57   take one last break here and thank our [TS]

01:28:59   third and final sponsored longtime [TS]

01:29:00   friends at the show back place back [TS]

01:29:04   plays offers unlimited native backup for [TS]

01:29:07   your mac or pc no credit card required [TS]

01:29:10   to get started no risk you get a 15 day [TS]

01:29:13   free trial at Backblaze calm / daring [TS]

01:29:15   fireball all data is backed up all data [TS]

01:29:20   on your computer's backed up that's how [TS]

01:29:22   much data is backed up what would you [TS]

01:29:24   say well I not mine i have a four [TS]

01:29:25   terabyte external drive nope they'll [TS]

01:29:27   back it all up only hitch is it well [TS]

01:29:30   however much data you have to back up on [TS]

01:29:31   your computer however long it takes to [TS]

01:29:34   upload through your home internet or [TS]

01:29:38   your office internet it just takes [TS]

01:29:40   longer to get to get the initial backup [TS]

01:29:41   up there that's it that's the only hit [TS]

01:29:43   there is no catch you pay five dollars [TS]

01:29:47   per Mac per month unlimited data the [TS]

01:29:52   software is terrific it's written the [TS]

01:29:54   mac version is written by former Apple [TS]

01:29:56   engineers and it feels like it it's [TS]

01:29:58   seamless in the background you never [TS]

01:29:59   notice it running you just set it up and [TS]

01:30:02   forget it and it's there and you get the [TS]

01:30:05   peace of mind the wonderful wonderful [TS]

01:30:07   you'll sleep an extra hour and night [TS]

01:30:09   with the peace of mind of knowing that [TS]

01:30:11   everything on your Mac that's important [TS]

01:30:13   is backed up to the cloud is it should I [TS]

01:30:16   be the only way you back up no back [TS]

01:30:17   plays will be the first to tell you that [TS]

01:30:18   there's a great place in your back flows [TS]

01:30:20   backup solution for something like time [TS]

01:30:23   machine something like super duper to [TS]

01:30:25   clone your startup disk so that you have [TS]

01:30:27   a second external drive with a complete [TS]

01:30:30   clone of your startup disk that you [TS]

01:30:32   could just switch to and boot from and [TS]

01:30:33   have go back to local stuff is great [TS]

01:30:36   it's always going to be faster but for [TS]

01:30:39   when disaster strikes like if somebody [TS]

01:30:41   breaks into your house and steals your [TS]

01:30:43   stuff or if a pipe bursts and a roof [TS]

01:30:47   over your office and drips water over [TS]

01:30:49   all your all your computing equipment [TS]

01:30:51   anything that could go wrong that might [TS]

01:30:53   go wrong locally having an off-site [TS]

01:30:55   backup is just a tremendous peace of [TS]

01:30:58   mind and it can be a lifesaver so where [TS]

01:31:02   do you go to find out more I've been [TS]

01:31:03   using back place for years I recommend [TS]

01:31:05   it I [TS]

01:31:05   would recommend it if they stop [TS]

01:31:06   sponsoring the show if they stop [TS]

01:31:08   sponsoring during fireball I would still [TS]

01:31:09   recommend it five bucks a month per [TS]

01:31:12   machine go to Backblaze calm / daring [TS]

01:31:17   fireball and they will know that you [TS]

01:31:19   came here from the show and you'll get a [TS]

01:31:21   15 day free trial by thanks to them I [TS]

01:31:23   like that back please I mean using that [TS]

01:31:27   for a long time yeah it's great service [TS]

01:31:29   I always forget that I have it wrong I [TS]

01:31:31   really do yeah the only time i remember [TS]

01:31:34   i restart and i see the little flame [TS]

01:31:36   icon every once in a while i have an [TS]

01:31:37   external drive on my desktop that i [TS]

01:31:40   don't always keep plugged in it's just I [TS]

01:31:42   just call it storage and it's where I [TS]

01:31:43   keep all sorts of big ass stuff like [TS]

01:31:45   video and stuff that I don't necessarily [TS]

01:31:47   want to fill up my ass my SSD with and [TS]

01:31:50   every once in while I don't have it [TS]

01:31:52   plugged in for a while and they send you [TS]

01:31:53   a nice little email that says hey you [TS]

01:31:55   know that that device hasn't been backed [TS]

01:31:57   up in 21 days or something like that [TS]

01:31:58   right and that's like oh yeah back boys [TS]

01:32:01   are still running yeah I don't really [TS]

01:32:03   need I don't really need to plug it back [TS]

01:32:04   in because part of the reason it hasn't [TS]

01:32:06   backed up in 21 days as I obviously [TS]

01:32:08   haven't changed anything so exactly yeah [TS]

01:32:10   but I use carbon copy cloner for local [TS]

01:32:13   and then back place for yep for external [TS]

01:32:16   kiss house burns down yep and then you [TS]

01:32:20   think wow this is good news my house [TS]

01:32:21   burned down but I've I get to reset up [TS]

01:32:25   my computer it's awesome any nerds will [TS]

01:32:28   take any excuse to reset up on computer [TS]

01:32:30   oh so all right one of the points I [TS]

01:32:35   wouldn't say of contention but one of [TS]

01:32:37   the the the the things that we didn't [TS]

01:32:42   really think about last week during at [TS]

01:32:44   that meeting in cupertino was with a [TS]

01:32:48   with Schiller had said was hey all right [TS]

01:32:50   we're working on a new mac pro thought [TS]

01:32:52   up thought from the ground up we are [TS]

01:32:53   working on new apple branded displays to [TS]

01:32:57   go along with them neither you're not [TS]

01:33:00   going to see these products this year [TS]

01:33:01   and ever I think every single other [TS]

01:33:05   person at the table heard that and [TS]

01:33:07   thought okay these things are coming [TS]

01:33:09   next year and wow that in and and sort [TS]

01:33:14   of in the context of Wow Apple is [TS]

01:33:16   telling us about a product that's a year [TS]

01:33:18   out [TS]

01:33:18   which is you know sort of unprecedented [TS]

01:33:20   I guess it's the longest ever I mean [TS]

01:33:22   they've done things like they unveiled [TS]

01:33:24   the iphone at macworld in January and it [TS]

01:33:26   didn't ship until June there's that's a [TS]

01:33:28   six-month lead a year is pretty unusual [TS]

01:33:31   if not unprecedented but I had that in [TS]

01:33:35   my story at least one point where I used [TS]

01:33:38   the phrase quote unquote next year and I [TS]

01:33:40   got pinged the next morning from someone [TS]

01:33:43   an apple PR just to clarify that Apple [TS]

01:33:45   didn't say next year they did not say [TS]

01:33:48   next year either they just said not this [TS]

01:33:50   year and that there's this there's [TS]

01:33:52   obviously a subtle difference between [TS]

01:33:54   not this year and next year which is [TS]

01:33:57   that in theory it might not come until [TS]

01:34:00   2019 mmhmm yeah nobody from Apple [TS]

01:34:03   reached out to me like proactively like [TS]

01:34:05   that but I did look at my when I was [TS]

01:34:08   looking at the through my transcript [TS]

01:34:09   just you know kind of make sure I got [TS]

01:34:11   everything right and all that I realized [TS]

01:34:14   that nobody did I think it was Lance [TS]

01:34:17   kind of mentioned twice hey you know [TS]

01:34:19   these things that are coming next year [TS]

01:34:20   blah blah blah you know just that speed [TS]

01:34:22   into another question and there was no [TS]

01:34:23   pushback right so I think that's kind of [TS]

01:34:26   where my brain clicked over okay fine [TS]

01:34:28   they didn't push back against these but [TS]

01:34:30   it was a conversation so I didn't expect [TS]

01:34:32   them to necessarily push back against [TS]

01:34:33   every little thing or maybe they were [TS]

01:34:35   just waiting for the point of the [TS]

01:34:36   question right and they didn't you know [TS]

01:34:38   did slipped their mind or whatever well [TS]

01:34:41   yeah I know we're in that that they [TS]

01:34:43   specify next year so that makes sense [TS]

01:34:45   and I don't think that it means that it [TS]

01:34:48   won't come next year maybe it will but I [TS]

01:34:51   also think that they want to leave [TS]

01:34:52   themselves wiggle room in case they [TS]

01:34:54   can't get it done and in its first [TS]

01:34:55   quarter the year after a second quarter [TS]

01:34:57   of the year after you know I mean I [TS]

01:34:58   can't fathom lovely see it being three [TS]

01:35:00   years from now but no I definitely think [TS]

01:35:03   that they did not want to commit to eat [TS]

01:35:07   you know exactly 18 months from now no [TS]

01:35:09   longer kind of thing you know I think [TS]

01:35:11   it's I at first I was a little alarmed [TS]

01:35:14   by it but then I thought you know what I [TS]

01:35:16   think it's just it's just not it's their [TS]

01:35:20   institutional resistance to talking [TS]

01:35:22   about stuff in the future and making any [TS]

01:35:23   promises at all and and they're sort of [TS]

01:35:25   desire to under-promise and over-deliver [TS]

01:35:27   I can't help but suspect that internally [TS]

01:35:31   they certainly are [TS]

01:35:32   for next year if not early next year I [TS]

01:35:35   can't help but think that but that they [TS]

01:35:37   know that Murphy's Law can hit and that [TS]

01:35:39   they might spend six months pursuing [TS]

01:35:40   path X and decide nope we need to [TS]

01:35:43   backtrack and go down paths why instead [TS]

01:35:45   and now we're 6 we've lost six months [TS]

01:35:47   that that can happen with the product [TS]

01:35:49   but given the fact that they're hitting [TS]

01:35:53   this reset button on a what's now four [TS]

01:35:57   year old computer or almost four coming [TS]

01:36:00   up for it but that's call it three I [TS]

01:36:01   guess because it shipped at the end of [TS]

01:36:03   2013 a let's be generous and call it a [TS]

01:36:06   three and a half year old computer uh it [TS]

01:36:12   that they're doing this now and saying [TS]

01:36:15   it's still going to take at least a year [TS]

01:36:16   that that's a pretty long time for the [TS]

01:36:20   world's most most successful profitable [TS]

01:36:24   company that specializes in making [TS]

01:36:26   computers to make a great cuter that [TS]

01:36:29   should be at a basic level fundamentally [TS]

01:36:34   similar to you know high-end intel-based [TS]

01:36:38   workstations you know that that part of [TS]

01:36:41   this is isn't you know it's not designed [TS]

01:36:44   in her own at least we think they're not [TS]

01:36:46   designing their own cpu to go with this [TS]

01:36:48   right you know that and you know and on [TS]

01:36:52   the flip side of that i want to so I [TS]

01:36:53   want to hear your thoughts about is is [TS]

01:36:55   part of the pushback I got from my [TS]

01:36:56   article was specifically about this it's [TS]

01:37:00   not coming this year and and the [TS]

01:37:02   pushback I heard was from people readers [TS]

01:37:05   and listeners of the show were obviously [TS]

01:37:07   frustrated at the mac pro who didn't [TS]

01:37:09   take this announcement as the good news [TS]

01:37:12   that I took it as because my biggest [TS]

01:37:14   fear like I said going in was that they [TS]

01:37:16   were going to say we're not gonna make a [TS]

01:37:17   mac pro anymore right like nothing at [TS]

01:37:19   all right right that's my that was my [TS]

01:37:21   bad news and my good news scenario is [TS]

01:37:22   the the mac pro is coming but it's not [TS]

01:37:25   coming for a while and I thought that [TS]

01:37:28   that was the good news because if the [TS]

01:37:29   the in theory good news would be we have [TS]

01:37:32   a new mac pro and here it is or we have [TS]

01:37:34   a new mac pro and it's coming at WWDC [TS]

01:37:37   they wouldn't have had the meeting they [TS]

01:37:40   would have just either shown had an [TS]

01:37:42   event and shown it or they would have [TS]

01:37:43   waited until June they could have at [TS]

01:37:45   least one [TS]

01:37:45   did that long and then it shown it I [TS]

01:37:47   three of fact that it couldn't even be [TS]

01:37:50   shown in June meant that they needed to [TS]

01:37:53   do something like this and so I knew [TS]

01:37:54   that going into the meeting that there's [TS]

01:37:56   no way they're going to show it to us [TS]

01:37:57   you know it can't be coming soon so the [TS]

01:37:59   best possible case would be that they [TS]

01:38:01   say to us you know it's coming at the [TS]

01:38:03   end of the year I thought would maybe be [TS]

01:38:05   the ideal case but I what I heard from [TS]

01:38:08   people was god damn it why can't apple [TS]

01:38:12   just take a motherboard from intel and [TS]

01:38:16   some high-end nvidia graphics cards and [TS]

01:38:19   put them in a goddamn box and sell it to [TS]

01:38:21   me mm-hmm right how long did it take [TS]

01:38:23   right how long can it take to make a [TS]

01:38:26   nice to unity eyes aluminum case done [TS]

01:38:28   right you know give jony ive's team a [TS]

01:38:30   month to make a nice looking box and [TS]

01:38:32   ship the goddamn thing and I wonder what [TS]

01:38:35   you did what you think about that like [TS]

01:38:38   what is it that they're doing that's [TS]

01:38:39   going to take them at least a year [TS]

01:38:42   combated to however long they've already [TS]

01:38:46   been working on on this which right [TS]

01:38:48   eames to be at least six months probably [TS]

01:38:51   a little more but at least six months [TS]

01:38:52   since I I think they'd flip the switch [TS]

01:38:54   and said full speed ahead yeah I don't [TS]

01:38:59   know I mean I keep going back it's like [TS]

01:39:01   almost like hunting me now when they're [TS]

01:39:03   saying like you know if we're gonna do [TS]

01:39:04   anything we want to make sure that its [TS]

01:39:06   innovative and that you know it's not [TS]

01:39:08   the same old thing and I think I think [TS]

01:39:10   that it's fine like the best case [TS]

01:39:12   scenario of that is iphone you know it I [TS]

01:39:16   don't know what that could be there's [TS]

01:39:17   two things that stick in my mind [TS]

01:39:19   completely unrelated to Apple well not [TS]

01:39:21   not completely but you know sort of [TS]

01:39:22   unrelated to Apple that they did sound [TS]

01:39:26   intriguing one of the reasons I asked [TS]

01:39:28   you know what's your feeling on external [TS]

01:39:30   GP is was that was my assumption of what [TS]

01:39:33   the mac pro was because I had heard a [TS]

01:39:37   little bit before the mac pro was [TS]

01:39:38   announced you know these things start to [TS]

01:39:40   come up in conversation as you have them [TS]

01:39:42   nothing I could put together really [TS]

01:39:44   solidly but I'd heard you know it's a [TS]

01:39:46   little blob of a machine and they're [TS]

01:39:48   going to focus on peripherals which is [TS]

01:39:50   essentially what they were trying to do [TS]

01:39:51   but the peripherals never really [TS]

01:39:53   materialized because of federal issues [TS]

01:39:55   and all that stuff you know in terms of [TS]

01:39:56   the vast array of them they thought [TS]

01:39:58   we're going to accompany [TS]

01:40:00   this thing but the peripheral that I was [TS]

01:40:01   really focused on in my mind was an [TS]

01:40:03   external GPU so it's saying hey like [TS]

01:40:06   this is what we launched today we think [TS]

01:40:07   it's going to be great for most people's [TS]

01:40:09   computing needs blah blah blah and then [TS]

01:40:11   you know in six months we're gonna have [TS]

01:40:13   a partner like Nvidia or AMD obviously [TS]

01:40:15   who they work very closely with who has [TS]

01:40:18   an external GPU you can plug in and [TS]

01:40:21   we'll handle your rendering tasks and [TS]

01:40:23   run your games and you can just pick [TS]

01:40:25   which GPU you're going to use in boom [TS]

01:40:26   right and you can just do that and this [TS]

01:40:29   that way this little blob of a machine [TS]

01:40:31   lives on your desk for 45 years 8 years [TS]

01:40:34   10 years and you get the newest GPU and [TS]

01:40:37   plug it in and as long as the i/o [TS]

01:40:39   doesn't change you know we don't have [TS]

01:40:41   some massive change in shift in i/o [TS]

01:40:43   which will happen every five eight years [TS]

01:40:44   whatever then you're good you're golden [TS]

01:40:47   and you're going to be able to keep [TS]

01:40:48   using this for the GPU intensive tasks [TS]

01:40:52   that you have that was my thought [TS]

01:40:53   originally for it mmm I was obviously [TS]

01:40:56   too aggressive in the way I was thinking [TS]

01:40:58   about it it gets one way to put it big [TS]

01:41:01   apple was too though I do well yeah yeah [TS]

01:41:04   yeah I guess so but not in that way [TS]

01:41:06   right in a different way in a different [TS]

01:41:07   direction completely so what I thinking [TS]

01:41:11   is like maybe that's the answer may be [TS]

01:41:12   that they figured out like hey maybe [TS]

01:41:14   external GPUs are the thing and they can [TS]

01:41:17   go to Nvidia and say hey build us a GPU [TS]

01:41:21   or an accessory the people plug their [TS]

01:41:24   GPUs into and then we don't have to [TS]

01:41:25   worry about it but it doesn't it doesn't [TS]

01:41:27   seem right to me right because like then [TS]

01:41:30   they would be doubling down on their [TS]

01:41:32   current shape and form factor and I [TS]

01:41:34   don't think that they would be doing [TS]

01:41:34   that if they they brought us in to have [TS]

01:41:36   this the whole discussion yeah I but the [TS]

01:41:40   answer was unambiguous though you asked [TS]

01:41:43   you know what would you guys see a [TS]

01:41:44   future for external GPUs and i think was [TS]

01:41:48   federighi who answered I'm ambiguously [TS]

01:41:50   yes you know we see a place for external [TS]

01:41:52   gps it was very short there was there [TS]

01:41:54   interesting and then turness i think [TS]

01:41:56   said for some applications absolutely [TS]

01:41:58   for others know which is another way of [TS]

01:42:00   saying get doesn't work always but does [TS]

01:42:02   work sometimes right but not you know [TS]

01:42:04   I'd not those are terrible terrible idea [TS]

01:42:07   like touch right right uh right and that [TS]

01:42:10   was like a long discussion about why [TS]

01:42:12   there no no [TS]

01:42:13   they're not you know of all that you [TS]

01:42:15   know a lot of the questions they [TS]

01:42:16   wouldn't give a yes or no to but they [TS]

01:42:17   gave a note to touch and it was it [TS]

01:42:19   wasn't just know it was no and it was a [TS]

01:42:21   long discussion but the external GPU is [TS]

01:42:23   yes and some for some cases I think the [TS]

01:42:26   other thing that they were pretty [TS]

01:42:27   ambiguous about is that the new Mac Pro [TS]

01:42:28   has to be able to support a big honking [TS]

01:42:31   internal GPU that whatever you might do [TS]

01:42:34   as a niche within an itch that would [TS]

01:42:38   require external GPUs fundamentally this [TS]

01:42:41   machine has to accommodate a big honking [TS]

01:42:43   GPU that's there all the time and can [TS]

01:42:45   can get pretty can do things that will [TS]

01:42:47   make it hot and have the heat dissipate [TS]

01:42:49   I thought that was pretty unambiguous to [TS]

01:42:52   UM there was so the other trend besides [TS]

01:42:57   the external GPUs I'll just interject [TS]

01:42:59   this I don't I don't know why this is [TS]

01:43:04   tickling my brain but there's there are [TS]

01:43:07   types of computers obviously the people [TS]

01:43:09   who build pcs are very familiar you know [TS]

01:43:10   you have like the full-size ATX case [TS]

01:43:14   right which is your big case and then [TS]

01:43:16   you have mini ATX micro ATX so on and so [TS]

01:43:20   forth right basically smaller and [TS]

01:43:22   smaller cases and at some point they you [TS]

01:43:24   have to get like a smaller motherboard [TS]

01:43:26   or motherboard that's meant specifically [TS]

01:43:27   to conserve space and maybe it doesn't [TS]

01:43:30   have as many ram slots or maybe it [TS]

01:43:31   doesn't you know have as many uh [TS]

01:43:33   creature comforts or whatever and it [TS]

01:43:37   shrinks and shrinks and shrinks but [TS]

01:43:38   there are their miniature Capri Bo [TS]

01:43:40   computers called nukes or knucks and [TS]

01:43:43   that are Microsoft has a very popular [TS]

01:43:45   one where if it's like you need you know [TS]

01:43:47   you need somebody who needs a computer [TS]

01:43:49   but they don't really need anything [TS]

01:43:50   special they just buy a nuk right it's [TS]

01:43:51   like 200 bucks and boom you get yourself [TS]

01:43:53   computer plug a monitor and you're good [TS]

01:43:55   and then there's other ones that are [TS]

01:43:58   about really about like fitting really [TS]

01:44:03   robust graphics cards into tiny cases [TS]

01:44:07   like really small cases and some of [TS]

01:44:10   these pc and i'll have to look it up [TS]

01:44:11   once again i don't have it a finger tips [TS]

01:44:13   but some of these cases are essentially [TS]

01:44:15   an excuse for a graphics card right they [TS]

01:44:17   just they wrap around the graphics card [TS]

01:44:19   the motherboard is specifically designed [TS]

01:44:21   to fit inside the case as small as [TS]

01:44:23   possible and the thing looks like a [TS]

01:44:25   bread loaf right and [TS]

01:44:27   just it's all about the GPU and and it's [TS]

01:44:30   for gamers who want the power but don't [TS]

01:44:33   want to sacrifice the space and I think [TS]

01:44:35   VR and to a lesser extent AR are driving [TS]

01:44:38   this cut this sort of category where [TS]

01:44:42   you've got a person who wants to do VR [TS]

01:44:44   and maybe they want to port it around [TS]

01:44:45   and go to groups to you know go to their [TS]

01:44:48   friend's house and bring it or whatever [TS]

01:44:49   like these evangelists fvr evangelists [TS]

01:44:51   pushing the thing forward in gamers who [TS]

01:44:54   want the latest bleeding edge you know [TS]

01:44:56   thing like hundred thousand VR headsets [TS]

01:44:58   or so have been sold so far so you [TS]

01:45:00   figure a hundred thousand users that's [TS]

01:45:02   enough for some case manufacturer to go [TS]

01:45:04   hey let me build a specialty case right [TS]

01:45:06   and I think for me it makes it a ton of [TS]

01:45:09   sense like I love it I love the idea [TS]

01:45:11   because like if I travel between cities [TS]

01:45:13   and I want which I do often and i want [TS]

01:45:15   to bring my VR kit I can pack my headset [TS]

01:45:17   in my cords into a relatively small bag [TS]

01:45:19   but then I got this big old tower [TS]

01:45:21   computer that runs this thing and that [TS]

01:45:23   sucks right right and in a laptop sort [TS]

01:45:26   of runs it but won't run it really well [TS]

01:45:28   it won't run it like an nvidia high-end [TS]

01:45:31   1080 or no high-end AMD card well and so [TS]

01:45:34   there's something about that it's like [TS]

01:45:36   maybe that you're thinking like well [TS]

01:45:38   heck if this is the future let's lean [TS]

01:45:40   into it right let's honor the shape and [TS]

01:45:44   the the power and the the desire to slot [TS]

01:45:48   these things in here and just build a [TS]

01:45:50   case that accommodates two full-size [TS]

01:45:52   graphics cards and up to four SSDs and [TS]

01:45:55   that's it and I mean I don't know you [TS]

01:45:58   know it's like same kind of ideas but [TS]

01:46:00   leaning in a different direction I just [TS]

01:46:03   don't know if they do that or if they go [TS]

01:46:04   full-on like bunch of space I think VR [TS]

01:46:06   is is an interesting topic to combined [TS]

01:46:09   with this discussion of the Mac Pro and [TS]

01:46:12   the most powerful possible graphics you [TS]

01:46:14   can get running on an Apple device today [TS]

01:46:16   but not in the obvious first level [TS]

01:46:21   scenario of hay in the current world Mac [TS]

01:46:26   users can't run vr in a mass-market way [TS]

01:46:29   or can't do it well and that things like [TS]

01:46:32   the oculus don't even support it because [TS]

01:46:34   there's no graphics card that's up to [TS]

01:46:35   their specs etc etc I think from Apple's [TS]

01:46:38   perspective that's not really relevant [TS]

01:46:40   and I thing [TS]

01:46:41   that they're correct that it's not [TS]

01:46:42   relevant that the ultimate matts market [TS]

01:46:45   way for Apple to do vr or ar is to [TS]

01:46:49   create a standalone device with a this [TS]

01:46:52   is what Apple does so when they go to a [TS]

01:46:54   new form factor they create a new and [TS]

01:46:56   entirely new interface that is meant to [TS]

01:46:58   be optimal for that form factor and so [TS]

01:47:01   from Apple's perspective the right way [TS]

01:47:04   to do VR is to bide your time and wait [TS]

01:47:06   until the technology can be put into a [TS]

01:47:10   desirable product that you just put over [TS]

01:47:12   your eyes and you've you're using their [TS]

01:47:15   new VR product and it's running a VR OS [TS]

01:47:17   but in the meantime Pro users have a [TS]

01:47:23   need to do VR now not the consumer users [TS]

01:47:26   for playing games and stuff like that [TS]

01:47:28   that's not really apples purview but [TS]

01:47:30   like I can totally see you likewise tony [TS]

01:47:33   has I have one in the house the kid has [TS]

01:47:35   it you know has a VR headset that runs [TS]

01:47:38   right now and and people who've you know [TS]

01:47:40   can play games and it's kind of cool and [TS]

01:47:41   immersive right um but at a professional [TS]

01:47:44   level somebody's got to make the VR [TS]

01:47:45   stuff and somebody's got to do the work [TS]

01:47:47   and if you assume that Apple just think [TS]

01:47:49   about Apple's own needs internally is [TS]

01:47:51   you know it's widely rumoured that Apple [TS]

01:47:53   has teams working on VR and especially a [TS]

01:47:55   are apples even said publicly that [TS]

01:47:58   they're interested in augmented reality [TS]

01:48:00   mm-hmm they what are the what are apples [TS]

01:48:06   engineers inside the company using to do [TS]

01:48:08   these things that is so super right [TS]

01:48:09   right exactly like if they're gonna be I [TS]

01:48:12   mean I know perfect obviously that [TS]

01:48:14   they're working on AR and VR who would [TS]

01:48:16   you know they'd be dumb not to and they [TS]

01:48:18   have these teams of people you know [TS]

01:48:20   poking and prodding at it from different [TS]

01:48:22   varying angles trying to figure out is [TS]

01:48:24   this the right way to go is that the [TS]

01:48:26   right way to go do we build glasses do [TS]

01:48:27   we built this thing to build the other [TS]

01:48:29   thing like what the hell are they using [TS]

01:48:30   right hackintosh is probably I have [TS]

01:48:33   heard I don't know yeah in recent weeks [TS]

01:48:35   both both after from a couple people [TS]

01:48:38   after last week's news broke and and you [TS]

01:48:41   know our stories hit but even in the [TS]

01:48:43   weeks leading up to this as I've you [TS]

01:48:45   know after I linked to a thing about a [TS]

01:48:47   video editor long time Mac user who's [TS]

01:48:50   reluctantly moving to win [TS]

01:48:51   just just because the GPU situation [TS]

01:48:55   didn't meet his needs on Mac I heard [TS]

01:48:58   from people within Apple little birdies [TS]

01:49:00   just saying I guess in some ways it's a [TS]

01:49:03   shitshow and that there have been you [TS]

01:49:04   know people in Apple were like I don't [TS]

01:49:06   know what to do should i try to [TS]

01:49:07   requisition the Linux box and you know [TS]

01:49:10   he's not even going to you know it [TS]

01:49:12   because it's like apples not even set up [TS]

01:49:13   for things like that to go through like [TS]

01:49:15   for an engineer right to ask for non [TS]

01:49:17   apple hardware but that it you know you [TS]

01:49:21   know just different needs within the [TS]

01:49:24   company i mean but AR i didn't heard [TS]

01:49:25   from anybody working on they are but i [TS]

01:49:27   heard from somebody who's working at [TS]

01:49:28   apple with large data sets let's say and [TS]

01:49:31   that that there is no apple computer [TS]

01:49:35   that actually has state-of-the-art for [TS]

01:49:37   for the needs of their work uh-huh which [TS]

01:49:40   is a really weird situation for Apple to [TS]

01:49:43   know I really is like I'd love to see [TS]

01:49:45   the POS all right it goes back what are [TS]

01:49:47   they ordering what it reminds me of is I [TS]

01:49:49   forget the exact details of the story [TS]

01:49:51   but that in the early days like 19 83 or [TS]

01:49:54   84 so like when the original mac was [TS]

01:49:57   getting on the cusp of launching they [TS]

01:49:58   added they bought a Cray to do certain [TS]

01:50:01   supercomputing needs you know for the [TS]

01:50:03   development of the mac which made total [TS]

01:50:06   sense because you know super computers [TS]

01:50:08   were totally different things from [TS]

01:50:09   personal computers for super computers [TS]

01:50:11   were at least by the standards of the [TS]

01:50:12   day the fastest possible computers money [TS]

01:50:14   could buy and they would cost like a [TS]

01:50:15   million dollars or something like that [TS]

01:50:17   and a personal computer was supposed to [TS]

01:50:19   cost two thousand dollars for twenty [TS]

01:50:21   five hundred dollars or whatever and you [TS]

01:50:25   know obviously it was only ran a [TS]

01:50:26   fraction of the power but in recent [TS]

01:50:28   years you know at least certainly for [TS]

01:50:30   the entirety of the mac OS 10 era where [TS]

01:50:33   you know it was a unix workstation you [TS]

01:50:37   know you didn't need to go outside the [TS]

01:50:40   company to buy my next work station you [TS]

01:50:43   know and they run into all sorts of [TS]

01:50:44   problems where it doesn't you know you'd [TS]

01:50:46   really have to go down the head like you [TS]

01:50:48   said the hackintosh route because just [TS]

01:50:49   buying a linux box to do this doesn't [TS]

01:50:52   let you run xcode and your stuff might [TS]

01:50:54   require xcode in particular not just any [TS]

01:50:56   c compiler or whatever so mm-hmm it's it [TS]

01:51:00   you know and then it just think of [TS]

01:51:01   anybody outside the company who's [TS]

01:51:02   working on VR [TS]

01:51:04   and stuff for the future where it [TS]

01:51:06   becomes a much more mass market product [TS]

01:51:09   well the work is being done today that's [TS]

01:51:11   laying the groundwork for the future [TS]

01:51:13   where AR and VR are mass market [TS]

01:51:16   technologies that everybody just sort of [TS]

01:51:18   takes for granted like we take for [TS]

01:51:20   granted touch screens and everything [TS]

01:51:21   else down the chain uh-huh at work is [TS]

01:51:24   going on today and it really is not [TS]

01:51:26   suited to the mac pro yeah and it is I [TS]

01:51:30   mean the people that are at some point [TS]

01:51:33   you have to think to yourself okay the [TS]

01:51:34   people that are shaping the future of [TS]

01:51:36   computing what tools are they using like [TS]

01:51:39   the shovels are incredibly important I [TS]

01:51:42   mean it's in the startup community you [TS]

01:51:44   know you always have this I mean it's [TS]

01:51:45   you know tech in general but startups [TS]

01:51:48   especially yet you have this philosophy [TS]

01:51:50   that you know you'll hear VCS or [TS]

01:51:52   entrepreneurs talk about where they say [TS]

01:51:54   you know build the shovels right or [TS]

01:51:56   invest in the shovels because in the end [TS]

01:51:58   everybody needs a shovel you gotta have [TS]

01:52:00   you gotta dig the hole you got to pour [TS]

01:52:02   the foundation and build your thing on [TS]

01:52:03   top of it but if you're the shovel maker [TS]

01:52:05   everybody needs a shovel right right at [TS]

01:52:07   some point either the shovel gets [TS]

01:52:08   acquired by somebody who's like I really [TS]

01:52:10   did this particular shovel or it gets [TS]

01:52:12   widely used in either case is some you [TS]

01:52:15   know a major minor success scenario for [TS]

01:52:17   a start-up and it just goes to you know [TS]

01:52:21   leasing this line of thinking Apple for [TS]

01:52:23   many years they built the shovels right [TS]

01:52:26   they built the what what you would used [TS]

01:52:28   what were you would launch your thing on [TS]

01:52:30   and build your thing on top of but they [TS]

01:52:32   also built the shovels and they still [TS]

01:52:34   are a shovel builder to a degree but you [TS]

01:52:36   know with Xcode and with you know the [TS]

01:52:38   macbook pros at all and imax as they [TS]

01:52:40   said more and more people are using that [TS]

01:52:41   for things like software development and [TS]

01:52:43   whatnot but if they are if they want to [TS]

01:52:45   maintain this hold on being the shovel [TS]

01:52:50   builder so people by the shovels and [TS]

01:52:52   they build on top of your platform with [TS]

01:52:53   your shovels and all of that which has [TS]

01:52:55   been a major component of apples success [TS]

01:52:57   with the iphone and everything else then [TS]

01:53:01   you've got to go okay well what's the [TS]

01:53:02   next big platform and what are the [TS]

01:53:04   shovels for that platform you know if AR [TS]

01:53:07   and VR our in fact you know a big [TS]

01:53:10   component of the next era of computing [TS]

01:53:12   and it's not something else then [TS]

01:53:15   you were where your shovels for those [TS]

01:53:18   people and right now they don't have any [TS]

01:53:20   you know or they have some that sort of [TS]

01:53:23   work but are not really the ideal [TS]

01:53:24   shovels so no major swath of those [TS]

01:53:27   people are really going to consider it [TS]

01:53:29   right now hmm I totally agree with them [TS]

01:53:32   I think that's sort of what they tacit [TS]

01:53:35   Lee acknowledged last week which was you [TS]

01:53:37   know it was sort of a dual emphasis it [TS]

01:53:39   was conflicting where it was well maybe [TS]

01:53:42   not conflicting but they they strongly [TS]

01:53:44   emphasized that the needs of most of [TS]

01:53:46   their Pro users are met by the current [TS]

01:53:48   macbook pros and imacs and even more so [TS]

01:53:51   in the near future as the new macbook [TS]

01:53:55   pro form factor gets improved and with [TS]

01:53:58   the imax that they emphasized include [TS]

01:54:00   quote pro configs um but they realized [TS]

01:54:07   that for what was the phrase a small [TS]

01:54:09   single digit of their users which i [TS]

01:54:14   think means one percent but they didn't [TS]

01:54:17   want to give an exact number but for [TS]

01:54:18   yeah it's got to be close to that if [TS]

01:54:20   it's not one it's close to one but it [TS]

01:54:22   would say a small single digit of their [TS]

01:54:24   users they need something else and [TS]

01:54:28   they're committed to building that for [TS]

01:54:30   them that they get it you know and that [TS]

01:54:33   they clearly obviously had their eye off [TS]

01:54:36   the ball in recent years on that that [TS]

01:54:37   segment of the market yeah i don't know [TS]

01:54:43   i don't know if it's like everything is [TS]

01:54:48   so much more open and rapid now i think [TS]

01:54:52   i mean i'm casting about a little bit [TS]

01:54:54   here for why but i think that software [TS]

01:54:56   development is a completely different [TS]

01:54:58   ball game now you know where it used to [TS]

01:55:00   be you had pipelines that were being [TS]

01:55:02   built and legacy pipelines that that [TS]

01:55:04   sort of evolved into newer pipelines [TS]

01:55:07   right and now you have sort of pipelines [TS]

01:55:09   having to be created out of whole cloth [TS]

01:55:10   with in years you know a couple of years [TS]

01:55:13   versus pipelines that evolved over [TS]

01:55:15   decades and i think that there's [TS]

01:55:17   something there to where it's so quick [TS]

01:55:20   you have to like readjust your your [TS]

01:55:22   frame of reference you know and how fast [TS]

01:55:25   you got to move on these things and [TS]

01:55:26   provide those those tools for p [TS]

01:55:28   I don't know maybe it's that on a [TS]

01:55:31   meta-level I don't fear anything else [TS]

01:55:32   right talk about but the other thing I [TS]

01:55:34   wanted to talk about was the meta level [TS]

01:55:35   of art our afternoon in cupertino was [TS]

01:55:41   the campus itself like one thing it was [TS]

01:55:43   at the old campus it was in a really old [TS]

01:55:46   building across the street from one [TS]

01:55:47   infinite loop across de anza boulevard [TS]

01:55:50   in this sort of nondescript old [TS]

01:55:53   California style with a single story [TS]

01:55:55   office building they did treat us to [TS]

01:55:57   lunch at the new cafe max which I didn't [TS]

01:56:01   even know existed which is sort of cafe [TS]

01:56:06   Alves they call it coffee cafe Alves was [TS]

01:56:09   just a beautiful new building I mean it [TS]

01:56:11   it's a really impressive architecture so [TS]

01:56:17   that it would struck me about the fact [TS]

01:56:18   that the cafe Alves is so nice it's all [TS]

01:56:21   brand new it's got I don't know [TS]

01:56:23   quadruple height ceilings I mean it's [TS]

01:56:25   truly a huge space really nice fit and [TS]

01:56:29   finish but it also looks very new it [TS]

01:56:30   looks like new Apple you know it did a [TS]

01:56:32   lot of apples campus is obviously very [TS]

01:56:34   old and sort of still it mean predates I [TS]

01:56:37   mean the whole one infinite loop campus [TS]

01:56:38   really predates the return of Steve Jobs [TS]

01:56:40   and the architecture really kind of [TS]

01:56:42   looks like it yeah but that they've made [TS]

01:56:46   this very modern new current Apple [TS]

01:56:49   cafeteria on the old campus which just [TS]

01:56:52   emphasizes what we've been hearing which [TS]

01:56:54   is that yes they're opening this massive [TS]

01:56:56   new spaceship campus this year uh but [TS]

01:57:00   that they're not abandoning any any of [TS]

01:57:03   the previous office space they're just [TS]

01:57:05   bursting at the seams right now head [TS]

01:57:07   count yeah they're gonna fill the new [TS]

01:57:08   headquarters and still be full at both [TS]

01:57:10   which is some sort of bigger on the [TS]

01:57:12   inside thing happening there yeah well [TS]

01:57:14   they still saw the need to build this [TS]

01:57:15   massive new cafeteria or main cafeteria [TS]

01:57:18   wrong word but cafe I guess but I [TS]

01:57:20   thought that was pretty interesting and [TS]

01:57:22   in a wheat which somebody asked during [TS]

01:57:24   the event about whether people on their [TS]

01:57:27   teams were moving in had moved into the [TS]

01:57:30   new campus yet and and it was another [TS]

01:57:32   one of those topics were for whatever [TS]

01:57:33   reason Apple does not want to talk about [TS]

01:57:35   it they do not want to talk about who [TS]

01:57:37   has moved into the new campus who hasn't [TS]

01:57:40   and when [TS]

01:57:41   anybody is moving in did you get that [TS]

01:57:43   sense that they're just yeah yeah [TS]

01:57:44   there's oh I mean you know give a couple [TS]

01:57:46   times they're like hey you know it's [TS]

01:57:48   like we don't mind asking but we really [TS]

01:57:50   want to talk about the mac bah blah blah [TS]

01:57:51   and that was one of them and yeah they [TS]

01:57:53   definitely are not interested at all in [TS]

01:57:55   talking about how many people have moved [TS]

01:57:57   which departments have moved which [TS]

01:58:00   departments are moving you know all of [TS]

01:58:02   that yeah and I I don't know what state [TS]

01:58:05   it's in I really don't i mean i've [TS]

01:58:06   watched those flyover videos every once [TS]

01:58:08   in a while and you can see you know that [TS]

01:58:10   it certainly is ever closer to [TS]

01:58:12   completion and it you know like [TS]

01:58:13   landscaping is probably the last thing [TS]

01:58:15   to be done and it's probably the biggest [TS]

01:58:16   thing remaining but you know for [TS]

01:58:20   whatever reason it was clearly not never [TS]

01:58:22   never on the table that that last week's [TS]

01:58:25   meeting was going to be held on the new [TS]

01:58:26   campus even though if you would have [TS]

01:58:28   told me a year ago that we'd be having a [TS]

01:58:30   interesting roundtable discussion at the [TS]

01:58:34   very end of March was it the fit yeah it [TS]

01:58:36   was the very end of or is it the [TS]

01:58:37   beginning of vapor I guess it was the [TS]

01:58:39   beginning of April yeah it was April yes [TS]

01:58:40   uh in April 2017 I would have thought [TS]

01:58:43   but that's on the new campus yeah no I [TS]

01:58:47   think they're still trying to get [TS]

01:58:48   everybody's uh work table set up yeah [TS]

01:58:52   hide the LG logos under under five nice [TS]

01:58:57   boys trying to move the routers further [TS]

01:58:59   away from the LG mine sorry was there [TS]

01:59:05   anything else that you want to talk [TS]

01:59:06   about before we wrap up no I mean I [TS]

01:59:09   think that covers it I think I think it [TS]

01:59:11   was an interesting discussion I think it [TS]

01:59:12   was very interesting to hear them say [TS]

01:59:14   I'm sought we're sorry twice yeah to the [TS]

01:59:17   community which come you know honestly [TS]

01:59:20   that there there's one aspect of this [TS]

01:59:23   where people are like yeah well there [TS]

01:59:24   again they never say they're sorry which [TS]

01:59:26   is not totally true they have apologized [TS]

01:59:27   for things but there's also an enormous [TS]

01:59:30   amount of responsibility that a [TS]

01:59:33   corporation you mean you have to think [TS]

01:59:35   about it this way strategically there's [TS]

01:59:37   an enormous amount of responsibility [TS]

01:59:38   that a corporation takes on when they [TS]

01:59:40   say I'm sorry because they're admitting [TS]

01:59:42   some sort of culpability and now this is [TS]

01:59:44   not like a consumer harm scenario really [TS]

01:59:46   I mean I'm sure somebody will try to [TS]

01:59:48   make an issue of it right at some point [TS]

01:59:50   that's that's not for me to determine [TS]

01:59:52   I'm no I'm no legal analyst in that [TS]

01:59:53   regard [TS]

01:59:54   but it it's a big statement for the [TS]

01:59:58   biggest company on earth to [TS]

01:59:58   biggest company on earth to [TS]

02:00:00   say we're sorry you know twice in in an [TS]

02:00:03   on-the-record discussion like that and [TS]

02:00:05   not you know try to crib adore ya or [TS]

02:00:09   couldn't you know beyond contextualizing [TS]

02:00:12   and of course and trying to like [TS]

02:00:13   protector about why it happened and [TS]

02:00:14   that's like a you know that's a pretty [TS]

02:00:16   big ballsy thing to do I think for a [TS]

02:00:19   product that is not a disaster it's a [TS]

02:00:22   disappointment it is something that they [TS]

02:00:24   were rightfully proud of when right now [TS]

02:00:26   like there's this is not a situation [TS]

02:00:28   where we're headed role or something [TS]

02:00:30   like that and you know we can laugh [TS]

02:00:32   about shoulders can't innovate anymore [TS]

02:00:35   my ass it's I mean it's hold maybe all [TS]

02:00:38   different discussion but we don't think [TS]

02:00:39   we need to argue it is that it was [TS]

02:00:41   innovative it just was the wrong [TS]

02:00:42   direction for innovation but it was [TS]

02:00:44   truly an innovative design and to [TS]

02:00:49   apologize for disappointing people for [TS]

02:00:51   that I think is different as I say [TS]

02:00:52   comparing compare and contrast with this [TS]

02:00:55   week's United Airlines fiasco where took [TS]

02:00:58   them 36 hours to to apologize for what [TS]

02:01:02   was literally a disaster where yeah yeah [TS]

02:01:06   yeah where they issued right right [TS]

02:01:08   before we started recording they issued [TS]

02:01:10   a press release that was pretty good I [TS]

02:01:11   think but should have been the press [TS]

02:01:13   release they issued 36 hours like it's [TS]

02:01:16   pretty good but right now it's like it [TS]

02:01:18   has no and has no impact whatsoever [TS]

02:01:19   right too late you know 36 hours [TS]

02:01:22   shooting somebody and then like offering [TS]

02:01:24   them a band-aid and being like oh man [TS]

02:01:26   sorry about that all right like Diddy I [TS]

02:01:27   already have a bottle in me well / PR is [TS]

02:01:31   the analogy to fires is often used with [TS]

02:01:35   PRS that it said you know it's put out [TS]

02:01:37   to put out the fire as the job PR does [TS]

02:01:39   but it's a really get Surrey alee good [TS]

02:01:41   analogy and at at when the story first [TS]

02:01:44   leaked that this poor fellow on the [TS]

02:01:46   flight had been bloodied while they [TS]

02:01:49   forcibly removed him and disoriented and [TS]

02:01:51   had a really bad experience it it was [TS]

02:01:54   bad it was a fire but it was like a [TS]

02:01:56   trashcan fire and they let it they let [TS]

02:01:59   it turn from a trashcan fire into a [TS]

02:02:02   house that had burned down fire well [TS]

02:02:05   which can you know like real fires [TS]

02:02:07   happens very quickly it's is why you [TS]

02:02:09   need you know PR professionals need to [TS]

02:02:12   be quick thinking and right [TS]

02:02:13   to go and United certainly blew that but [TS]

02:02:16   any just comes to mind when it comes to [TS]

02:02:18   apologies that there's a big difference [TS]

02:02:20   between apologizing for a man who's been [TS]

02:02:22   beaten to a bloody pulp and apologizing [TS]

02:02:25   for a rather subtly disappointing [TS]

02:02:29   years-long dawdled down the wrong path [TS]

02:02:35   of the future of pro hardware [TS]

02:02:37   engineering and I thought it was [TS]

02:02:38   bridling something that was ultimately [TS]

02:02:40   well executed but served the wrong needs [TS]

02:02:42   right I thought that was pretty [TS]

02:02:44   interesting and I thought it was it it [TS]

02:02:46   filled me with I think that they've got [TS]

02:02:48   this i think they've i think they lost a [TS]

02:02:50   handle on this and didn't quite realize [TS]

02:02:52   they had but now they've got a firm [TS]

02:02:54   handle on it again yeah yeah all right [TS]

02:02:59   Matthew Panzer II know we can we can [TS]

02:03:01   read your fine writing and that of your [TS]

02:03:02   staff at what's the name of the site [TS]

02:03:07   TechCrunch check crunch Tech Crunch it's [TS]

02:03:12   a new up and coming site on the [TS]

02:03:14   internets NAND and on Twitter you are at [TS]

02:03:18   Panzer they get a right PA and zer [TS]

02:03:21   that's it that's it so find fine twitter [TS]

02:03:24   account where you have very very good [TS]

02:03:26   commentary on the day's events my thanks [TS]

02:03:31   to you [TS]