0:00:01the incomparable number 354 May 2017
0:00:11welcome back everybody to the
0:00:12incomparable I'm your host Jason Snell
0:00:14this is a special bonus episode of being
0:00:17comparable with something that's only
0:00:20been done once before only a single
0:00:22guest it's Dan Lauren he just said Wow
0:00:27hi Dan hi Jason
0:00:29who was the other single guest well when
0:00:32we did the Miyazaki overview episode
0:00:34only Jon siracusa okay we're on it
0:00:37because nobody else wanted to be on it
0:00:39oh yeah that's like this show nobody
0:00:41else wanted to be on this episode either
0:00:43we've come a long way so people asked me
0:00:45if we were gonna cover the fact we've
0:00:47been talking you've been mentioning it
0:00:49on various podcasts that you that you
0:00:51write write novels and even work in
0:00:53novels and you're hoping to have a novel
0:00:54published and the plan here is that this
0:00:57episode will go out on the day that your
0:00:58first novel is published officially
0:01:00although I already received my copy in
0:01:02the mail as have many people the printed
0:01:04Edition the e-book will come out then
0:01:06it'll be available should be on shelves
0:01:07and bookstores all of these things
0:01:09should happen and everybody asked like
0:01:12well are you gonna do an incomparable
0:01:14episode and talk about is like well I
0:01:15don't think we should do a regular
0:01:18incomparable episode about the work of
0:01:21somebody who is one of our panelists cuz
0:01:24there's only a couple ways that can go
0:01:27yeah one of them could be very very bad
0:01:30right and the other would be super
0:01:33boring because it'll just be nice things
0:01:35about our friend in their book and
0:01:37that's also not good so I decided that
0:01:41maybe what we would do for this episode
0:01:43this bonus episode is for you and me to
0:01:47talk about about your your book in the
0:01:51process of writing your book and the
0:01:53story of of you putting this thing
0:01:56together because I think people will be
0:01:58interested in that people have been
0:01:59listening to this podcast for a long
0:02:00time have been hearing your voice you
0:02:02are are the most frequent panelist on
0:02:05the incomparable so I know hold that up
0:02:08I mean I'm there are there people
0:02:09nipping at my heels these days
0:02:11yeah well David Laura is on every
0:02:12episode of everything he says yes I have
0:02:14to just tell him no sometimes because he
0:02:16will always say yes so but yeah so I
0:02:19thought if that would be a way that we
0:02:21could do it is we could talk about the
0:02:22book and what's in it and how
0:02:24uuhh without you know spoiling it for
0:02:26people yeah well yeah maybe we'll do a
0:02:29little spoil horn at the end I don't
0:02:30know but and about the process because I
0:02:32think the process is interesting too as
0:02:34I have tweeted about before I have an
0:02:36email here from June 2010 and so almost
0:02:41seven years ago that is you sending
0:02:44along or offering to send along an
0:02:46e-book of your beta stage of your novel
0:02:51it's all the plot lines are firing
0:02:53smoothly but ironed out most of the more
0:02:55incidental problems but still a
0:02:57work-in-progress danger may abound that
0:03:02seems the accurate description of the
0:03:04first draft of many novel so let's back
0:03:07up from 2010 and and start with first
0:03:12let's start with where when did you
0:03:14write your first what you consider a
0:03:16your first novel to have you have
0:03:19written and and tell tell us how long it
0:03:23was from there to the thing that became
0:03:26the Caledonian gambit well the very
0:03:30first thing I'm sort of looking back to
0:03:32see what I can actually find here in
0:03:35terms of my early early attempts of
0:03:38writing things but I think the very
0:03:39first thing I finished and I've been
0:03:43trying to write novels for years I
0:03:45remember like I got a little better at
0:03:47it as it went along and I wrote some
0:03:49short stories here and there but never
0:03:50anything that I liked really I always
0:03:52wanted to write novels and let's write
0:03:53long stories because that's what I liked
0:03:54reading and I wanted the ability to be
0:03:57able to have all those things you can't
0:03:59do easily in a short story like little
0:04:01digression xand like world like you know
0:04:03the you can do some of these things
0:04:04short stories but you have to be very
0:04:05economical about it and I'm maybe not an
0:04:08economical person when it comes to
0:04:09writing and so creating a short story
0:04:12which is a very finely crafted like
0:04:15instrument in which everything is done
0:04:18with a purpose and everything has you
0:04:21know is very cool Ike carefully
0:04:23calculated it just it wasn't a medium
0:04:26that ever spoke to me I admire those who
0:04:29can who can craft it and wield it well
0:04:31because it's not an easy thing to do but
0:04:34I always really wanted to write longer
0:04:36stories and so
0:04:38over the years I've tried this in a
0:04:40number of you know different attempts
0:04:41and I think the furthest I got for a
0:04:43long time was when I lived abroad for a
0:04:46while in my junior year of college I
0:04:47think I got like maybe like twenty ten
0:04:50twenty thousand words into a story
0:04:52before realizing like I didn't really
0:04:54know what I was doing I didn't know
0:04:56where the plot was going I was just sort
0:04:58of putting one word after another and
0:05:00and sometimes that works but in this
0:05:01case I felt like realizing all the
0:05:03pacing was off and this story wasn't you
0:05:05know quite firing correctly so I ditched
0:05:09that but that was an idea that I had
0:05:10been working on since probably like
0:05:13after my freshman year of college and so
0:05:16after a couple years after I graduated
0:05:18college I was working as a web developer
0:05:20and an IT guy and I got kind of sick of
0:05:24that job and I thought you know I've
0:05:25always wanted to actually sit down and
0:05:27finish a novel and so I started working
0:05:29again on that idea and I started from
0:05:32scratch and I worked on it like my spare
0:05:35time you know around my job at night
0:05:39weekend's etc and my favorite story
0:05:42about that novel is that I finished that
0:05:44novel I liked I got to a point where I
0:05:46want to say was maybe August of 2004 or
0:05:49so and I I sort of was like I had gotten
0:05:55close enough I knew where the end was
0:05:56you know and I was very close to it and
0:05:58I remember that one day I realized you
0:06:00know okay I'm this is this is the last
0:06:02chapter like I know where I am and I can
0:06:04finish this in like another couple
0:06:05thousand words and I was at work it was
0:06:08a Friday and it was the middle of the
0:06:09summer in August and there was nothing
0:06:11going on so I sort of looked around
0:06:12realized nobody is paying any attention
0:06:14to me that nobody's in the office a lot
0:06:16of people on vacation so I fired up my
0:06:18word processor and I like I know exactly
0:06:20what I need to write and I like banged
0:06:21out the last couple thousand words of
0:06:22that novel while sitting at my desk
0:06:24Clow and that was the first thing I ever
0:06:26finished it like I remember sitting back
0:06:28and just like looking at going like oh
0:06:29my god I actually did it I actually
0:06:31finished a novel and and that was
0:06:35mind-blowing to me at 24 this thing that
0:06:38I had been you know thinking my entire
0:06:40life I something I wanted to do but I
0:06:42wasn't sure I would ever actually be
0:06:44able to do it so what what uh what novel
0:06:49is that is that something I've read or
0:06:50was that something that was just
0:06:51shook your head up deed something that
0:06:53you read is the driver that is the
0:06:56driver series uh-huh and I think I've
0:06:59got a copy here unfortunately um yeah I
0:07:01don't know unfortunately not not gonna
0:07:04read it
0:07:04um yeah I'm trying to find if I have
0:07:06like fortunately it was all written in
0:07:08like Apple works or something so some of
0:07:11these formats may be a little a little
0:07:13past their prime
0:07:14yeah so this was a post-apocalyptic
0:07:16series which involved a the main
0:07:20character was a driver he had a car
0:07:22essentially and there were two main
0:07:24characters one was this this driver
0:07:26named Nathan and the other one was a
0:07:28young woman named Ellen and it was sort
0:07:31of you know everything everything goes
0:07:33back to Star Wars with me Jason this was
0:07:36kind of an attempt to do a post a
0:07:37post-apocalyptic novel that was very
0:07:39much the hero's journey and I fell into
0:07:42some of my love of Star Wars it was I
0:07:44had that's that's my memory of it
0:07:45because I did read it and that is my
0:07:47memory of it is that it was very it was
0:07:49very hero's journey very Star Wars
0:07:51except set in this kind of earthbound
0:07:53post-apocalyptic setting but very Star
0:07:56Wars right down to you know kind of
0:07:58wizards and dark forces and things like
0:08:01that officer and I and everything I know
0:08:03so he was envisioned as a trilogy as is
0:08:05all fantasy stories Rudy obligated to be
0:08:08and I ended up I finished that one and
0:08:11around the time I finished that up or
0:08:13shortly thereafter was when I decided to
0:08:15leave my computer job and I did that by
0:08:18going I quit and I went to Ireland for a
0:08:21month actually with uh my friend Tony
0:08:23Sindelar yeah who was incomparable
0:08:25panelist he and I traveled around for a
0:08:27little bit
0:08:28with another friend of ours and during
0:08:30that time I started jotting down notes
0:08:31for the second book in that series I
0:08:34will note that you know not to not to
0:08:37discourage anybody but in general if
0:08:39you're like thinking from an actual
0:08:40practical like business point of view
0:08:42don't do that
0:08:43yeah because if you start in on a second
0:08:46book and the first book never sells then
0:08:48you've basically written a book that is
0:08:50not going to be saleable in its own
0:08:52right because you've written the middle
0:08:53of a story unless you're very very lucky
0:08:55it's real and you're like lois mcmaster
0:08:58bujold did that right where where she
0:09:01wrote what ended up being um
0:09:05the to Cordelia's honor is the is the
0:09:09the the omnibus version but she ended up
0:09:11writing one of those and putting it
0:09:15aside and then writing another book in
0:09:17the universe but it wasn't a direct
0:09:18continuation right right now would be
0:09:20like if yeah this would be like if you
0:09:22know George Lucas had made Empire
0:09:23Strikes Back like me which is a great
0:09:25movie but like trying to sell that
0:09:26without having Star Wars you know before
0:09:29it seems tough yeah and so you know it
0:09:33was good for me I'm glad that I did it
0:09:34because I learned a lot I felt like in
0:09:36that series every like I just kept
0:09:38getting better it was about honing my
0:09:40craft I felt like it really helped me
0:09:42improve and it was it was doing it which
0:09:45is the most important thing right it was
0:09:47not like sitting around thinking about
0:09:49how do I uh man I wonder figure out a
0:09:51novel no it was actually sitting down
0:09:52putting words on a page and you know in
0:09:54some ways there's you never lose out if
0:09:56you're if you're putting words on the
0:09:58page even if those words don't end up
0:09:59you know turning into something at least
0:10:02you you've done it it's like you know
0:10:03you've gone to the gym essentially
0:10:05you've exercised your creative skills so
0:10:08and it's true did you do NaNoWriMo I did
0:10:11at several times a four or five times I
0:10:14think that I actually finished it maybe
0:10:16more I don't remember um I worked on a
0:10:19couple different projects none of these
0:10:21were directly connected to this I want
0:10:23to say I have like 50,000 words of like
0:10:26a why a sci-fi novel somewhere that I
0:10:28worked on I have a hundred thousand word
0:10:31like sort of like literary quote unquote
0:10:34literary novel that I wrote which was
0:10:36like wow semi autobiographical thing
0:10:39that I wrote which I basically I did two
0:10:40years of that so yeah I did the first
0:10:42half of one year in second half and all
0:10:43of my all of my NaNoWriMo is like that I
0:10:45was just looking it up actually while we
0:10:47were talking because I wanted to figure
0:10:48out what what the three because I've
0:10:49written three novel in manuscripts and I
0:10:52wrote them all in blocks over to
0:10:55NaNoWriMo years and so that because I'm
0:10:58I answered the question of when what did
0:11:00I first finish a novel manuscript was
0:11:03was almost ten years ago it was November
0:11:062007 because I did NaNoWriMo in 2006 and
0:11:09then finished that novel actually wrote
0:11:11during the year too and then finished
0:11:13the novel in in November 2007 because
0:11:15that manuscript like 150,000 words long
0:11:18and and so it's 250 thousand word blocks
0:11:20and then I did like in February I did my
0:11:22own little NaNoWriMo but you know a long
0:11:24time now and then and then I've got two
0:11:25others in a drawer but it goes to your
0:11:27point about going to the gym that
0:11:30NaNoWriMo and full disclosure I'm on the
0:11:33board of NaNoWriMo it's a nonprofit that
0:11:35runs the event and I because I believe
0:11:37in it but one of the things I really
0:11:39believe about it is you can see that the
0:11:43more you do it the more the rust falls
0:11:44off and the more it doesn't become
0:11:46easier but you it becomes you become
0:11:48more capable of doing it and it's it's
0:11:51no wonder that when you talk to a lot of
0:11:53writers not all writers but a lot of
0:11:54productive novelists like Stephen King
0:11:55the number that they say in terms of
0:11:58word count that they basically do in a
0:11:59day is not that far off from the
0:12:02NaNoWriMo word count it's basically the
0:12:04if you were a novelist you would write
0:12:07you know fifteen hundred words a day and
0:12:09you would be productive and the truth is
0:12:11that doesn't sound like a lot to me
0:12:13because I can write a I can pick out a
0:12:15Macworld column at 1,200 words the other
0:12:19day in a few hours but novel writing is
0:12:22harder than writing a column I find
0:12:24because you've got to keep your plot in
0:12:25your head and your characters and
0:12:26there's a lot more going on there but
0:12:28the the my point is if you keep up that
0:12:31pace every day for a month
0:12:33you've got fifty thousand words if you
0:12:35did it every day for two months you've
0:12:37basically got a normal sized novel and
0:12:39you can imagine that although it's not
0:12:40realistic even if you're Stephen King
0:12:42that means that if you wrote every day
0:12:44for a few hours you know in the span
0:12:47it's not like for 12 or 15 hours but
0:12:50like maybe for eight hours or six hours
0:12:52you could potentially write like six
0:12:55novels in a year now you wouldn't
0:12:57because you'd want to revise and other
0:12:59things but it's like it's all once you
0:13:01start to take the beyond the first step
0:13:03in the in the journey right the first
0:13:05step in the marathon you got to take the
0:13:08first step and then you take the next
0:13:10step and it's a process that leads to
0:13:12the end yeah you can't I mean no one's
0:13:15sitting down and writing a novel in a
0:13:16day probably maybe someone's done that
0:13:19but a very bad no it's probably not
0:13:21great you know so you know it is a that
0:13:24is I think the thing is daunting about
0:13:25it right it's a commitment you know just
0:13:27like driving for a 5k or something right
0:13:29I always like it marathon or a 5 or 10k
0:13:32or some other kind of personal
0:13:34achievement kind of in climbing a
0:13:35mountain it's kind of like that yeah
0:13:37yeah a marathon probably closer because
0:13:39like there are people who can go out and
0:13:40run a 5k without working you know
0:13:42without prepping themselves no sweat but
0:13:45a marathon is everybody has to train for
0:13:47a marathon
0:13:47yeah even even fantastic marathon
0:13:49runners yeah so it's it's a gradual
0:13:52process and you know between NaNoWriMo
0:13:54and writing some other stuff on the side
0:13:55you know I once asked I was at a book
0:13:58signing for Neil Stevenson and asked you
0:14:02know for his advice and his advice to me
0:14:04was and I think he may have said this
0:14:05house for two it was right 10,000 pages
0:14:07and throw him out and I feel like I got
0:14:10pretty good I don't know if I wrote
0:14:1110,000 pages throw him out but I wrote a
0:14:13lot of pages that are you know never
0:14:15gonna see the light of day basically
0:14:16yeah and so along those lines you know I
0:14:20worked on the sequel to that to that
0:14:22post-apocalyptic book I started in on
0:14:24the third book and never finished it as
0:14:27you know because you read the first two
0:14:28yeah and I know how it ends but I just
0:14:31like there's no point to writing it
0:14:32because I so that the forestay John has
0:14:34to tell me how it ends I'll tell you how
0:14:36it ends tell me Oh Ned's george RR
0:14:39martin as it's in my head but one of the
0:14:41funny things about that which I dug out
0:14:43around the time that I got my agent was
0:14:45I submitted that to my current now
0:14:46current agent and he turned it down
0:14:49I submitted to a few places and did not
0:14:51get you know nobody nobody wanted to
0:14:54take me on as a client on the basis of
0:14:56that write manuscript and probably
0:14:59rightly so because you know I wrote it
0:15:01when I was 24 I had never written a
0:15:02novel before I didn't really know what I
0:15:04was doing and it's not to say that that
0:15:05thing could not be turned into a
0:15:08workable novel but it was gonna you know
0:15:11it's like a house that needs to be taken
0:15:12down to the study you probably just just
0:15:14need to be ripped and probably start
0:15:15over yeah I mean I I've mentioned to you
0:15:18recently I like I think there are some
0:15:20some cool ideas in there that I might
0:15:21steal for for future stories so that's
0:15:25why I won't self-published them probably
0:15:28because I feel like they're still
0:15:29utility of them and also self-publishing
0:15:31stuff that you wrote 24 feel like
0:15:33doesn't really help your your eyebrow
0:15:35has it worked now if you if you end up
0:15:38on a roll where they're publishing your
0:15:40novels that's the time you dust that off
0:15:41and again you probably strip it for
0:15:43parts
0:15:43oh yeah
0:15:44anything else so how long ago did the
0:15:49did the idea for what became Caledonian
0:15:53gambit popped into your head and then
0:15:55what was the journey from there to
0:15:56actually having a finished manuscript to
0:15:58email me about I was thinking about this
0:16:01and I went back and fortunately I'm a
0:16:02digital pack rat so I keep everything so
0:16:04I was looking through my sort of old
0:16:07writing folder and I have a document
0:16:09called Eli dot cwk which is an Apple
0:16:13works document and it de is dated May
0:16:1620th
0:16:17hey that's tomorrow 2002 so 15 years ago
0:16:22years ago tomorrow as we record this oh
0:16:25yeah from years ago 15 years ago almost
0:16:27to the day of your publication day and
0:16:29and I think that was probably the first
0:16:31attempt to write a story I have notes
0:16:33and I recently when I at some point dug
0:16:37up my or cleaned a lot of stuff out of
0:16:40my parents attic I found a bunch of my
0:16:42notes from college and I found the
0:16:43notebook in which I remembered I had
0:16:45written started jotting down the ideas
0:16:47for this story which was probably also
0:16:492002 or so about second semester senior
0:16:52year I think and that was because I had
0:16:54just been given the Vorkosigan novels by
0:16:55lois mcmaster bujold by my cousins and I
0:16:58was so enamored with them that I wanted
0:17:01to write a space opera that was similar
0:17:03to to those in the idea of like
0:17:05sprawling universe all these you know
0:17:08different factions political intrigue
0:17:10characters that grow and change
0:17:12throughout the course of a series like I
0:17:14was I I fell in love with those books
0:17:16and I wanted you know as we all do when
0:17:18we find something we really love and
0:17:20it's not like we run out of it because
0:17:22we consume all of it we're like what
0:17:23there's no there's no more what what if
0:17:25I could make more but like do my own
0:17:27thing so yeah I started that's when I
0:17:30started jotting down notes and stuff
0:17:32changed obviously you know that 15 years
0:17:35is a long road for a story most things
0:17:38probably don't don't live that long as
0:17:41an idea and this one I picked up and put
0:17:44down a bunch and I think the current
0:17:46version of it really dates back to
0:17:49probably two thousand eight or nine so I
0:17:54sent you in what 2010 we decided yep
0:17:56yeah so 2008
0:17:589:00 at which point I was already
0:18:01working for Macworld I don't know
0:18:05I see how some of this I can't really
0:18:07remember at this point honestly it's
0:18:08been so long but I you know I was again
0:18:10I was probably working on the side on
0:18:12like nights and weekends
0:18:14I don't think I did I like used
0:18:16NaNoWriMo as an excuse for this one I
0:18:18was actually looking at my Nana right Oh
0:18:19a dashboard when you mentioned it and
0:18:20realized none of my stuff's in there I
0:18:22think they changed sites and they erased
0:18:24their baby they wiped it out I only had
0:18:25one in there for my last one of 2011 and
0:18:28the rest weren't in there so I couldn't
0:18:30close it sadly I don't I have no idea
0:18:32the record is gone but yeah I've done um
0:18:37you know I think NaNoWriMo is great as
0:18:39we're just talking about for getting you
0:18:40started and once you feel like hey I am
0:18:44pretty confident what I'm doing you
0:18:46realize you don't you don't need that is
0:18:48a promise a crutch that's not you it's
0:18:51little pejorative but like you can you
0:18:53don't need the training wheels anymore
0:18:54yeah like hey I know how to bike I can
0:18:56do this you can do this all the time you
0:18:58can internal to wait till November right
0:19:00that way and so for me I got very
0:19:04comfortable in writing all the time and
0:19:06especially my day job at Macworld
0:19:07involved writing a lot and so I was very
0:19:11comfortable with it as like a process
0:19:13and so I figured you know I want to
0:19:15start back in and I got I think I was
0:19:17working on the third book in that driver
0:19:18series and I was like oh man I'm just
0:19:19totally jammed up on this like I don't
0:19:21really know what to what to do in it
0:19:22first book didn't do you know didn't get
0:19:24any bites and why am i working on the
0:19:27third book of a trilogy if I can't sell
0:19:29the first book and so I think it you
0:19:31know at a certain point I I sort of had
0:19:33to swallow my pride and be like that's
0:19:35not going anywhere let's work on
0:19:36something totally different and so I
0:19:38wrote I think what I wrote was probably
0:19:41the first thing I wrote was probably the
0:19:43it might have been the prologue for this
0:19:46book or ironically it might have been a
0:19:48version of the first chapter of the
0:19:49second book which will get to well house
0:19:53indeed and we'll get so yeah 2008-2009
0:19:57was probably the first like when I
0:19:59started in working on what eventually
0:20:02become became the Caledonian gambit and
0:20:04of course it changed a lot in that
0:20:06period as even you saw in the time the
0:20:08you know that you read it yeah it
0:20:11definitely did
0:20:12um the the so 2010 you send it to me and
0:20:16I read it I remember reading it every
0:20:18year for a few years there when the kids
0:20:21were little we would go to this family
0:20:22camp up in the woods in the Sierras and
0:20:24I remember very distinctly sitting uh
0:20:29reading I think on I think not on a
0:20:33Kindle it might have been like on an
0:20:35iPhone yeah
0:20:38or actually could have been an iPad even
0:20:39right Jen right maybe it was the
0:20:41original iPad in iBooks I think that's
0:20:43what I did and not a Kindle because the
0:20:45Kindle that I had at that point had the
0:20:49you know the stupid keyboard it's not
0:20:51good anyway but I uh so the device isn't
0:20:53clear but I know it was a digital device
0:20:54and I was sitting there reading it like
0:20:56in a in a lounge chair kind of thing one
0:21:00of those like director Z chairs on dirt
0:21:03surrounded by trees in the National
0:21:05Forest in front of our tent cabin
0:21:07probably drinking a beer and reading and
0:21:09noting the book and I have a fond a fond
0:21:12clear memory of reading and writing
0:21:14notes about the book now you know
0:21:16keeping in mind that my my kids were way
0:21:19I mean it's been seven years right kids
0:21:21have changed a lot more than you and I
0:21:22have in the last seven years the and it
0:21:27was it definitely hit me at the time
0:21:28that knowing your love for the
0:21:31Vorkosigan series and having read all of
0:21:33those in a very short period of time
0:21:35because of your recommendations
0:21:36certainly I was reminded of of that kind
0:21:40of style of thing this this is actually
0:21:42two months before the incomparable by
0:21:44the way yeah right right this predates
0:21:46it so they insanely I just found a thank
0:21:48God I used to keep a blog somewhere
0:21:50I found a blog suggesting that I started
0:21:53it in March 2009 so right that was out
0:21:56Oh only about a year and a year and
0:21:59change before I sent it to you yes so
0:22:01you wrote wrote it across 2009 basically
0:22:04in the beginning of 2010 that first
0:22:05draft of it so I remember reading it I
0:22:08remember I remember my notes of it a
0:22:12little bit mostly that my complaint was
0:22:15that your main character seemed like an
0:22:16idiot yeah yeah yeah that's fair um I
0:22:22I'm not sure how much I fixed that but I
0:22:24hope no I don't I don't
0:22:26feel that way anymore because I read I
0:22:27read another draft of it much later and
0:22:29no I mean it was just funny that was
0:22:32that I remember that being one of my
0:22:33main I mean I found a bunch of little
0:22:35things I think about like oh I what
0:22:36about this and this seems to consistent
0:22:38in all of that but what my overarching
0:22:41thing I think was that I had some
0:22:43confusion about the two viewpoints
0:22:44because there are sort of two viewpoint
0:22:46characters in the book and my
0:22:48frustration that your main character
0:22:50seemed to be a little bit passive and
0:22:53got a little bit taken advantage of by
0:22:55other characters to the point like I
0:22:56wanted to see him sort of like have more
0:22:58struggle or or or feel you know figure
0:23:02things out a little bit back a little
0:23:05yeah because he just seemed like he was
0:23:06giving because I mean the story in broad
0:23:08strokes without spoiling it you end up
0:23:10with this your main character kind of
0:23:12has a homecoming that's kind of a
0:23:13reluctant homecoming and it we as we
0:23:16learn more about his family life and his
0:23:18life back where he grew up you can see
0:23:21that there's some very strong
0:23:22personalities and you can see why he
0:23:24left
0:23:25honestly you see why he left and I think
0:23:28the challenge in the first rap that I
0:23:29had was that when he returns back it
0:23:32feels like he's just going back to being
0:23:34ping ponged around by these other people
0:23:36in his life and I think I think in the
0:23:38final version that isn't there that that
0:23:41you see why he left and and why there
0:23:44are all these issues but you also see
0:23:47that he's his own person and he's making
0:23:49his own decisions and he's he's not kind
0:23:52of like there occasionally he's hapless
0:23:55because he's learning about this new
0:23:56kind of world that's opened up to him
0:23:57but he's never dumb about it like he the
0:24:00decisions he makes or the things he gets
0:24:03steered into I don't feel like he's
0:24:05doing it because he's been cowed or
0:24:08because he's clueless and that that was
0:24:09a for me that was like one of the key
0:24:11points is I want to root for this guy
0:24:12but every time he does something I was
0:24:14thinking you idiot why are you doing
0:24:16that and I think that and that's a
0:24:18subtle thing but I think you managed to
0:24:19navigate that a little bit in making him
0:24:21see him a little bit well you know more
0:24:23capable and and like when he get when he
0:24:25does something that is dumb he does it
0:24:27for reasons right it's not it really
0:24:29turn out to be a regrettable later but
0:24:31he does it for good reasons well the
0:24:33thing and it's the thing we often
0:24:34complain about you know when we critique
0:24:36television shows for example or other
0:24:38things where people do things that
0:24:40think are dumb and the Emmy we always
0:24:42like why did you do that and then the
0:24:43answer it's like because that's what the
0:24:45script told them to do right you don't
0:24:46want you don't ever feel like you're
0:24:48your character is doing something
0:24:49because the plot demands that they do
0:24:52this thing even though it makes no sense
0:24:54right like even if they're going to do
0:24:55something dumb or make a mistake which
0:24:57characters have to do because they're
0:24:58flawed and that's what makes stories
0:25:00interesting is conflict and mistakes and
0:25:02and that's our jazz you want to make it
0:25:05make it seem like there was a reason
0:25:07there was a rationale even if it was a
0:25:09bad rationale there was a reason that
0:25:11they did what they did yeah right like
0:25:13this character is put under pressure in
0:25:15a certain way psychological pressure
0:25:16physical pressure and they react and as
0:25:19long as it makes sense because because I
0:25:22mean also a subtle thing right is you
0:25:24don't want you want people to like your
0:25:26protagonist right yeah and not feel
0:25:28unless you're writing a like a detective
0:25:31that's deliberately unlikable well you
0:25:32wanna be yeah you wanna understand why
0:25:34they do what they do and and be and
0:25:35identify them in some with them in some
0:25:38way and and if if if you like come on
0:25:41dummy why did you do that that's not you
0:25:43takes you out of the story so that I
0:25:45remember that and definitely I was that
0:25:47was a change that that made I don't know
0:25:49what else you want to talk about about
0:25:50the changes that you made along the way
0:25:52because I know that there was a
0:25:53different you know you kind of backed up
0:25:55the opening of the book at one point and
0:25:57then you kind of the final the final
0:25:59book opens very much like the the draft
0:26:01I read was you can went there and then
0:26:03went away from it it went through some
0:26:05changes and so a lot of these came as a
0:26:06result of getting a working with the man
0:26:10who is now my agent so let's let's and
0:26:12let's let's talk about that yeah let's
0:26:14talk about that for a moment so you did
0:26:16ultimately get an agent what was that
0:26:18process what happened with that so for
0:26:21several years I was going to well I
0:26:23guess I only went like once when I was
0:26:25younger in like my mid-20s I went to vos
0:26:27con which is a local science fiction con
0:26:29and at the time I went which I think was
0:26:312006 it was in downtown Boston it since
0:26:35moved to the over near the Convention
0:26:37Center but a you know it was just a
0:26:39chance to like go and and see some
0:26:42interesting writers george RR martin was
0:26:44there cory doctorow was there I mean
0:26:45people that you know I knew and admired
0:26:47I also thought hey I've written a book
0:26:49at this point like maybe this is an
0:26:51interesting way to like network a little
0:26:53bit
0:26:54and so I went to try and do that and I
0:26:56had an interesting experience and really
0:26:58like felt like I came away opened up to
0:27:02a new sort of slice of fandom right like
0:27:05kansai not I've been to other like I've
0:27:07been Somani made conventions some video
0:27:09game convention stuff like that I've
0:27:11been to Macworld like but there was not
0:27:13I had never really been to a
0:27:16science-fiction con and so that was an
0:27:17interesting experience several years
0:27:18later I sort of stopped going for a
0:27:20while and then several years later I
0:27:21went back and around 2000 G's 2012
0:27:27probably I so I had gone to boss Con in
0:27:32February or so and I was looking at
0:27:36panels and I saw a panel by a guy named
0:27:38Mike Cole was a writer and I had read a
0:27:41blog post by him I'm only a month or so
0:27:44earlier maybe linked to by John Scalzi
0:27:46or something talking about just how hard
0:27:49it was to make a living as a full-time
0:27:52writer which Mike was trying to do at
0:27:53that point and he was Mike was very open
0:27:55about like how his books were doing the
0:27:57kind of money he was making you know the
0:27:59fact that he wants to live in in you
0:28:01know New York City and how like making
0:28:03you know even with books that did pretty
0:28:05well it was still really really uphill
0:28:09climb and I thought it was fascinating
0:28:11and it was also just you know it was not
0:28:14a rosy picture but it was a picture that
0:28:16said like you can do this it's just
0:28:18gonna be really hard and so I went and
0:28:21saw Mike on a panel and later on a lot
0:28:22of these cons do these things called
0:28:23coffee klatches where you just sort of
0:28:25sit down at a table
0:28:26yeah with someone and so I signed up for
0:28:28Mike's and I sat down and we ended up
0:28:30chatting and Mike again very generous
0:28:32with his time was like hey you know as
0:28:33soon as we sat down it's like I'm sure a
0:28:35lot of you want to be writers and are
0:28:38trying to figure out how to break in the
0:28:39business so if you've got questions ask
0:28:41me I will answer him I will tell you
0:28:43anything and so we had a very
0:28:45interesting discussion this whole coffee
0:28:46table and and we were done I was talking
0:28:49to Mike a little bit and he said like
0:28:50yeah you seem like a like a nice guy
0:28:51like you seem very like approachable
0:28:54very personable like you can talk to
0:28:55people whole like and you you know we
0:28:59talked a little bit about like my book
0:29:00and stuff and then his agent was man
0:29:02named Joshua Vilnius walked up and
0:29:04Joshua reps some pretty well-known
0:29:06people
0:29:07including Charlaine Harris who wrote the
0:29:09stuff that True Blood is based on and
0:29:11brand recently very very well-known
0:29:13fancy author and Joshua and I started
0:29:15talking and I mentioned it was very
0:29:17helpful at that point mentioned I'm a
0:29:19full time writer I'm a professional
0:29:20writer right for a technology magazine
0:29:22and we ended up chatting for a while and
0:29:25discovered that like he was very
0:29:27interested in like picking my brain
0:29:28about technology stuff too and we had
0:29:30some common interests we both avid
0:29:32crossword doers and so we talked for a
0:29:35while and at the end I said hey you know
0:29:36I've got this book I would love to send
0:29:38it to you can I do that he said sure and
0:29:39he gave me his card night I sent it off
0:29:41and he eventually read it and sent me
0:29:45back a whole bunch of comments and his
0:29:50comments were sort of like I've cut my
0:29:52am look at the email now cuz I'm super
0:29:53curious to say what he said at the time
0:29:54it's like yeah it was it was really nice
0:29:57to meet you I really get into the book
0:30:00and then he talked about sort of like
0:30:03you know he thought there was promise in
0:30:06it and he thought like I could put some
0:30:07sentences together there was just some
0:30:09stuff that needs to be worked on
0:30:11there were stuff that need to be cut
0:30:13there was deadweight there was you know
0:30:15stuff that was just kind of overwrought
0:30:18and sort of killed his interest in it
0:30:20and he said like well you know what this
0:30:23this isn't problems here but there's you
0:30:25know I looked at some of the other stuff
0:30:26and it seems like there's some promise
0:30:29so you know work on it I'd be interested
0:30:31to take another look at some point now
0:30:34that's huge I don't know you know to
0:30:37talk to our audience for a second if
0:30:38you've ever tried to write into an agent
0:30:40and submit a manuscript most of the time
0:30:42the best you can hope for is like a
0:30:44pretty you know form response is just
0:30:46like sorry this wasn't for me and I've
0:30:49gotten my fair share of those both on
0:30:50the editorial submissions as well as on
0:30:54agents you know agent queries and you
0:30:57know that's kind of disheartening right
0:30:59like you know even if it's just it's not
0:31:01for me it makes you feel it's rejection
0:31:02right it's a bummer but to get something
0:31:06back that was you know if not an
0:31:08acceptance at least a I read this here
0:31:11are bunch and I'm looking at this email
0:31:12it's fairly long it's like a page long
0:31:14and so you know with specific notes
0:31:17about things to look at and the fact
0:31:20that some
0:31:21one who is as busy as he is took the
0:31:23time to read through and give me
0:31:25specific pointers was incredibly
0:31:29generous and like incredibly you know he
0:31:33was willing to commit his time to do
0:31:34that and that is HUGE because it gave me
0:31:37something to say like I all right yet
0:31:39work that needs to be done here I can go
0:31:41back and I can keep working on this and
0:31:43he might be willing to look at another
0:31:46draft on somebody who knows about novels
0:31:49and how they were right and and and you
0:31:51know he's viewing a also slightly
0:31:53different perspective which is he's
0:31:55viewing from the perspective not just if
0:31:56somebody in the business and not
0:31:57somebody who doesn't have any reason to
0:31:58tell you that they're like your book but
0:32:01also he's thinking not just if a novel
0:32:03he likes he's thinking of novels that he
0:32:05knows that have sold right and he's he's
0:32:08also yeah he's also looking at you know
0:32:11sometimes it's about the book but a lot
0:32:13of times it's usually about the writer
0:32:14which is to say if a agent looks at a
0:32:17book and thinks this book you know it's
0:32:20not for me but it's you know there's
0:32:22clearly something this provide this
0:32:23person who promised are duly surprised
0:32:25like yeah you you sometimes they will
0:32:28talk to you and work with you and you
0:32:30know like maybe say like not this but
0:32:31like when you've got something else let
0:32:33me know
0:32:34and so because they're looking you know
0:32:36a good agent is looking for someone
0:32:39who's gonna have a career right like
0:32:41they don't want to sell a book they want
0:32:42to sell a lot of books like and they
0:32:44want you to have a long career in which
0:32:47you're gonna sell a bunch of books
0:32:48because that's how they make their money
0:32:49right like they make a commission on
0:32:50selling stuff right so they it's in
0:32:52their best interest for you to have a
0:32:54long and fruitful writing career in fact
0:32:56it seems to me that that the business
0:32:58model of many agents including yours is
0:33:00you place a bunch of bets and absolutely
0:33:03and some of them will hit and you get
0:33:05your Brandon Sanderson and some of them
0:33:08won't know they'll write they'll be okay
0:33:09or they'll write a couple of books and
0:33:11they won't really go anywhere but you
0:33:12place the bets you find people that you
0:33:14want to place a bet on and then see what
0:33:17happens yeah I mean it's a lot like it's
0:33:19a lot like a lot of the entertainment
0:33:21industry like think about movies right
0:33:22studios put out a bunch of movies a year
0:33:24and they have those tentpoles where it's
0:33:26like this is our like big blockbuster or
0:33:28summer blockbuster it's going to make a
0:33:30ton of money and we're going to use that
0:33:32to essentially fund a lot of our other
0:33:35yes that are maybe not going to make as
0:33:36much money and so you know if you have a
0:33:39huge client who does really well that
0:33:41enables you to take chances on new
0:33:42people and yeah like you said that might
0:33:45pay off you might find the next Brandon
0:33:46Sanderson you might find the next George
0:33:48are Martin rights how you do it no
0:33:49that's how you do it you can find start
0:33:51and find talent and and identify it and
0:33:53and so he gave you he gave you feedback
0:33:55that let you go away and I mean I I did
0:33:58something similar because I paid Saladin
0:34:00Ahmed for a for a critique of my most
0:34:04recent manuscript in it similarly it was
0:34:06like it was a lot about this is too much
0:34:08you got too much detail here this is a
0:34:10waste you need to delete this you need
0:34:11to change this and it was great because
0:34:13again same thing right he has no reason
0:34:15to do anything except give me the truth
0:34:17and that's what I wanted from somebody
0:34:19who's written an award-winning novel and
0:34:21has taught creative writing and it's
0:34:23like it's super valuable to get that
0:34:24perspective so you take it away and then
0:34:27then you spend how much time working on
0:34:30the book after that a couple years yeah
0:34:33because we saw we stayed in touch which
0:34:35is great because he would send me emails
0:34:36every once a while like often not about
0:34:38book stuff at all he was some emails
0:34:39about Matt like Apple stuff like because
0:34:41he'd see you know me writing about you
0:34:43know whatever announcements came out and
0:34:45he would just shoot me these aleem ales
0:34:47well I got what do you think about this
0:34:48thing or we talk about crosswords or
0:34:50stuff so like we end up kind of becoming
0:34:51friends which was nice and then every
0:34:53once awhile I would have a new draft and
0:34:55I would send it over to him but I think
0:34:56I you know it was basically back and
0:34:57forth until I want to say it was 2015 it
0:35:02was only a couple years ago at this
0:35:04point that I'd gone back and forth with
0:35:06him and one of his other agents at the
0:35:09agency a Sam Morgan who is since left
0:35:11the agency and is off doing his own
0:35:13literary agent enough elsewhere and Sam
0:35:16Joshua both gave me a bunch of great
0:35:19like you know feedback as I went through
0:35:21the drafts but it was it was a couple
0:35:23years until I think it was summer 2015
0:35:26that I finally got the call like you
0:35:28know what we we read this last draft
0:35:30there's a couple minor things we want to
0:35:32tweak but we think on the basis of this
0:35:33it's good enough that we we'd love to
0:35:35have you as a client and that was that
0:35:39was probably like you know there's a lot
0:35:41of moments where you get to like feel
0:35:42like take the win right like celebrate
0:35:44and I think that was for me that was
0:35:45really the first one where it was like
0:35:47I have not only did I get that that call
0:35:49to say you know we want to bring you on
0:35:51and we're going to try to sell this but
0:35:53you know it was a testament to the fact
0:35:55that my butt off for like two years you
0:35:58know making all these changes and
0:36:00revising and to it was a it was proof to
0:36:02me that I could not only sit down and
0:36:05write a novel as I did like finishing
0:36:06that first one but that I could actually
0:36:08then do the hard work because writing
0:36:12you know putting one word in front of
0:36:14the other seems hard but really it's
0:36:15it's figuring out what order to put them
0:36:17in as I always say and so the amount of
0:36:20time you spent like writing that first
0:36:22novel you know rewriting it is gonna be
0:36:23more probably and it's harder if it
0:36:25feels harder to be way harder it's like
0:36:28playing Jenga right like it's like oh my
0:36:29god if I take this brick out right here
0:36:31with this whole thing fell fall over and
0:36:33I think I tried to talk a little bit
0:36:36about this in a talk I did once at a
0:36:37singleton the conference in Montreal but
0:36:40like it's it's trying to get yourself
0:36:42out of that mindset that like oh my my
0:36:45story is this delicate spiderweb and if
0:36:48I break this one strand the whole thing
0:36:50will fall apart and trying to get
0:36:52yourself more into the mindset of my
0:36:54story is like a like a piece of iron
0:36:56that is being worked in a forge right
0:36:58where you're hammering on it to make it
0:37:00like temper it to make it stronger than
0:37:02the thing that was or you know
0:37:04originally rightly you take a sword and
0:37:05it's all about folding the metal and
0:37:07like hammering it and trying to
0:37:09reinforce it to the point where it's
0:37:10like it's not going to break immediately
0:37:12and you can hammer on something pretty
0:37:13hard and and try to sort of work it into
0:37:16the right shape and and that's that's
0:37:19what you're going for when you're
0:37:20rewriting and otherwise like you just
0:37:23sort of get paralyzed with fear that
0:37:25anything that you change will break
0:37:27everything yeah and it's not the case
0:37:29stories are pretty resilient in that way
0:37:30and you can always fix it is the good
0:37:32news you got to be bold you got and yeah
0:37:34that's the goods to your kill your
0:37:35darlings thing to would you gold and not
0:37:38be afraid that you're gonna roll over
0:37:39something that maybe something you're
0:37:40really proud of and but it doesn't fit
0:37:42and so you just got to be I'm just
0:37:44passionate about like it's gone yeah
0:37:46yeah I mean sometimes there are things
0:37:48that you should fight for that are good
0:37:49and you know they're good and you got to
0:37:50trust your gut and say like no this is
0:37:51good I need to find a way to make this
0:37:53work but yeah you can't get hung up on
0:37:56that one thing that is preventing
0:37:58everything else from working right like
0:38:00if it's if it's one
0:38:00thing preventing the rest of the story
0:38:02from working that's got to go but if
0:38:04it's one thing that's like oh it just
0:38:05doesn't quite fit then you know figure
0:38:07out a way to make it fit yeah but two
0:38:11years yeah so two years until I got the
0:38:13the deal for that I think actually you
0:38:15know what that must have been right
0:38:16before that was right before we were all
0:38:20at sass one yeah 2015 right because I
0:38:23met I met your agents and getting a task
0:38:26one and and Josh said to me
0:38:29what do you have in nonfiction I'm like
0:38:31all I got a signed sci-fi novels - I
0:38:34don't have any nonfiction for you it's
0:38:35like I'm really excited about a little
0:38:36about like a nonfiction narrative I'm
0:38:38like oh man I can't yeah I I keep
0:38:41thinking about it like I was fine I'll
0:38:43have anything for that he's a he's a
0:38:44character it was fun meeting those guys
0:38:46and yes you got to go there and at least
0:38:48be repped by an agent right yep and and
0:38:51but the process wasn't over because you
0:38:53had to make changes and things like that
0:38:54and then they had to go through the
0:38:55process of trying to sell your book yeah
0:38:57and that's another whole long one - yeah
0:39:00it's always like one it's like a video
0:39:01game level you beat that level the next
0:39:03level is harder right yeah and so you
0:39:05know that basically involves sending out
0:39:07you know they craft a query letter which
0:39:09is basically kind of a lot like the
0:39:11thing that you send to an agent right
0:39:12when you're when you're trying to pitch
0:39:13your book to them and but obviously they
0:39:16have a little more experience of doing
0:39:17this and they have relationships with
0:39:18editors which is great and so we spent
0:39:20some time working on a query letter for
0:39:22the story you know full plot synopsis
0:39:24describing it talking about me a little
0:39:26bit and then sending that out to a bunch
0:39:28editors and then you get the long period
0:39:30of waiting for the editors to get back
0:39:31and this is basically very similar to
0:39:34like sending stuff out to agents which
0:39:35is to say most editors are going to turn
0:39:38you down could be for a variety of
0:39:40reasons they might again maybe it's just
0:39:42not a story that resonates with them
0:39:44maybe it just doesn't fit in with like
0:39:47their their what they're working on or
0:39:49their marketing or their style or tone
0:39:51any variety of things maybe they don't
0:39:53have money for it
0:39:54who knows and so we went through a lot
0:39:58maybe somewhere between 10 15 different
0:40:02publishers before we found the deal that
0:40:05we wanted and I should mention actually
0:40:07as an interesting part of this which is
0:40:08something I forget sometimes probably
0:40:11in-between me
0:40:14the first draft of this and actually
0:40:18getting signed by an agent I at one
0:40:22point submitted this to the small
0:40:24publisher called angry robot
0:40:26uh-huh and they had a everyone smile
0:40:28they hold open submissions and I sent my
0:40:30book in for that and it got to the point
0:40:32of they requested the whole manuscript
0:40:35and and they did not eventually like you
0:40:40know offer to buy it but they you know
0:40:43it got pretty far in that process and
0:40:44then some books came out I think um I
0:40:46think was choose uh lives of Tao came
0:40:49out of that so you know like their books
0:40:52real books came out of that so I felt
0:40:54like heartened by that that even though
0:40:56they didn't want to buy it like it had
0:40:58you know again past a certain sniff test
0:41:00so that was exciting and in fact we
0:41:03submitted to them you know when we were
0:41:05doing eight submissions editorial they
0:41:07still didn't buy it but hey that's fine
0:41:09I like that's already yeah right someone
0:41:12that actually I feel like maybe some of
0:41:13them do you remember it I don't know I
0:41:15felt like it got better in that time but
0:41:17yeah you know not to get too much down
0:41:19the weeds of the editorial process but
0:41:21you get a lot of comments back I got
0:41:22some very nice comments by people who
0:41:23are like oh man I really there's things
0:41:25I really like about this but ultimately
0:41:27I just it didn't work for me in some way
0:41:28or you know and like that's depressing
0:41:30too because you're like wait what didn't
0:41:32work what didn't work what can I fix but
0:41:35you know you're just looking for the
0:41:36right editor so what was the process of
0:41:39finally you know did you get did you get
0:41:42offers and and how did you make that you
0:41:45know without getting you know I know you
0:41:46don't one of the things you don't want
0:41:48to disclose but like how did that had
0:41:49the deal get made there we ended up
0:41:52getting two offers both of which were
0:41:56had their virtues and we ended up going
0:42:00with the author from Talos press which
0:42:03is a imprint of skyhorse and if just you
0:42:08know some of that was was purely like a
0:42:10business decision in terms of like you
0:42:12know what they what the terms of the
0:42:13offer were and so you know I ended up
0:42:16I'm working with a editor there named
0:42:18Jason Katzman and he seemed excited
0:42:21about the book which was great and the
0:42:23terms were were ones that were
0:42:26you know Amina Bowl to all parties so we
0:42:28signed that deal and at that point then
0:42:31that's that's another good example of
0:42:33you could you sign that deal and you're
0:42:35like great I've signed a deal for a book
0:42:36when's my book come out and I sign that
0:42:38deal like over a year ago you know so um
0:42:42so next tip is you know if you get to
0:42:45that point you sign a book deal
0:42:46keep working because otherwise you know
0:42:51you're gonna bask on you know basking
0:42:54the Sun for a while about that and they
0:42:55realize wow this this deal this doesn't
0:42:57come out for a year and I'm not gonna I
0:43:00can't just sit around and wait for it to
0:43:01come out I gotta keep working otherwise
0:43:02when it does come out I won't have
0:43:04anything else to like push forward so
0:43:06this is where writing becomes like a job
0:43:08because you know you can never quite sit
0:43:12back and relax yeah you had to you had
0:43:15to to keep working as it went through
0:43:17the process I was gonna you mentioned
0:43:22that there's a sequel I did did no are
0:43:27you going against your own advice there
0:43:29by writing another book in this universe
0:43:31when you don't know how well this book
0:43:33is going to do and later it's gonna hurt
0:43:34a sequel I am 100% going against my own
0:43:37advice yeah and I had written that
0:43:40actually before I signed with the agency
0:43:43certainly because you read that too and
0:43:46you had that I don't know when but
0:43:47probably not too long after you read the
0:43:51early versions of the Caledonian gambit
0:43:53you probably read that it probably a
0:43:54couple years later because I kind of
0:43:56jumped in on that and I knew I shouldn't
0:43:57but at the same time part of me felt
0:43:59like well these books are not it's not a
0:44:02trilogy it's not intended to be a like
0:44:04beginning middle end of like books it's
0:44:07they're more episodic and so I thought
0:44:11to myself well you know I have an idea
0:44:13for a story and worst case scenario you
0:44:16know if the first book doesn't do well
0:44:17maybe I can redo this and make this the
0:44:19first book or sell this first as lois
0:44:21mcmaster bujold did and so I kind of you
0:44:24know I guess my better judgment went and
0:44:25did that and that book is still in the
0:44:30works I don't have too much else to say
0:44:33about it directly I'm still working on
0:44:36it
0:44:36it's a getting feedback and I'm
0:44:39be close to a draft I think that myself
0:44:42and my agent are both happy with which
0:44:44is a good process and then some of that
0:44:46will depend on seeing how well the
0:44:48Caledonian game it does so rest assured
0:44:50that if you've if you've read it and you
0:44:51like it there is potentially more to
0:44:54come but obviously you know that depends
0:44:57on how well the book does so you know
0:44:59tell your friends he'll ever tell
0:45:00everybody rated on Amazon rated on
0:45:02Goodreads read reviews etc if you like
0:45:05it and you want to see more so that's
0:45:06how that works so let's talk a little
0:45:08bit about the book without without
0:45:09spoiling it so that it's science fiction
0:45:11it's you've got a can you talk a little
0:45:14about where this is set because it's got
0:45:17a very particular as these space operas
0:45:19often do it's got a very particular kind
0:45:21of politics set up that is you know it's
0:45:27like geopolitics except instead it's
0:45:29Galactus politics collect a political I
0:45:32as I call it was kind of a mouthful yeah
0:45:35this is set in said well I'm working you
0:45:39know the timeline is not specified in
0:45:40the first book but it's a few hundred
0:45:42years in the future the galaxy has
0:45:45expanded there are still this is kind of
0:45:47notable they're still like humans in
0:45:49this in this galaxy it's so you know
0:45:53there are no aliens the worlds that have
0:45:55been settled are mainly connected via
0:45:58wormholes and there are these gates that
0:46:01sort of prop the wormholes open and let
0:46:02you travel between these solar systems
0:46:04and over the last twenty years or so
0:46:07there's been this cold war going on and
0:46:10I mean it started it started as an
0:46:13actual war this the lyric and Empire
0:46:17invaded this was a group of former Earth
0:46:21colonists and they sort of were ticked
0:46:25off by the way they felt like they had
0:46:26been treated by earth and so they
0:46:28invaded earth and took over the other
0:46:30colonies several of the other colonies
0:46:32including the planet caldonia which is
0:46:34obviously in the title and which is
0:46:36where our protagonist is from and then
0:46:38over time it sort of settled into this
0:46:40cold war where the remnants the people
0:46:43who are not conquered by the lyric ins
0:46:46have sort of formed formed this ad-hoc
0:46:48commonwealth of independent systems to
0:46:50basically resist
0:46:52and the way that it's sort of shaken out
0:46:54is that they they end up you know kind
0:46:56of in one of these Cold War mutually
0:46:58assured destruction scenarios where
0:47:00they've got these two superpowers and
0:47:02they're kind of staring each other down
0:47:03but right now everything is kind of calm
0:47:08before the storm so there's there's no
0:47:12open warfare but there are occasionally
0:47:14maybe some skirmishes and of course it
0:47:16gives us a great opportunity for spies
0:47:18and covert agents to do all their
0:47:20sneaking around right so it's you get
0:47:22the sense that maybe there's a there's a
0:47:24change on the horizon but for now a cold
0:47:26war there's a balance of power that at
0:47:28least temporarily has been put in place
0:47:30between these two factions of humans who
0:47:34have different collections of plants now
0:47:35Caledonia you mentioned one of the
0:47:37concepts I think and correct me if I'm
0:47:40wrong here that is that a lot of these
0:47:41planets what ends up happening is that
0:47:43there are colonists that that colonize
0:47:45them that are at least in some cases
0:47:48largely from particular nations on earth
0:47:51and so you end up with kind of you know
0:47:53a planet with a more homogeneous culture
0:47:57than you might otherwise expect is that
0:47:58right because Caledonia seems to be has
0:48:00a strong Irish Scottish kind of flavor
0:48:04to it yeah and in this case a lot of
0:48:06that comes from the people who were the
0:48:08founders of the colony and therefore
0:48:09were like kind of had a vested interest
0:48:11in pushing their own cultural agenda and
0:48:16it's not to say that there aren't people
0:48:17from all you know all Heritage's and
0:48:21backgrounds but just that that has
0:48:23evolved to become and sort of like with
0:48:26with with some melange from some other
0:48:28cultures but it sort of evolved to
0:48:30become the the main culture on that
0:48:33planet and and yeah so that's it's a
0:48:37result sort of of the unwanted the
0:48:38ruling class but like sort of the people
0:48:40who were in the the upper echelons of
0:48:42that that colony when it got settled
0:48:45alright and so presumably other planets
0:48:48have do do well are all planets in these
0:48:51in this universe like that or are there
0:48:53do they vary about whether they're super
0:48:55very culturally tied or not at all I
0:48:57would say they they largely vary there
0:49:00are some with much more much stronger
0:49:03cultural identities and then others
0:49:05which are more melting pots it really
0:49:09depends on where you go and you know
0:49:12sort of who is there first and all the
0:49:13ways those cultures to sort of evolve as
0:49:15they go along but you know yeah in the
0:49:17we haven't we haven't spent too much
0:49:19time on other planets you know in this
0:49:24first book really focuses largely on
0:49:26caldonia and so they have a very very as
0:49:29you said a very distinct culture which
0:49:30is very heavily Celtic in origin now
0:49:33while that just came from
0:49:34I spent my a lot of time in Scotland and
0:49:36Ireland at various points right and I
0:49:38enjoyed the culture of it and I wanted
0:49:40to sort of work that into a yeah I think
0:49:44I again try not to give too much away
0:49:46but also it has a little bit of a flavor
0:49:48of they're there at a few points I got a
0:49:51flavor of like you know kind of IRA kind
0:49:55of right there's some there's a little
0:49:58bit of crime and maybe maybe there's a
0:49:59little bit of terrorism and it's all
0:50:02just kind of hanging around there which
0:50:04which that that was the flavor that I
0:50:06got out of yeah no absolutely that's
0:50:08that's that was another certainly
0:50:10another influence as I said I did go to
0:50:12Ireland for a while after finishing that
0:50:14first book and I I did get to visit some
0:50:18of the sites that are tied very closely
0:50:19to to Irish history and Irish
0:50:22nationalism and that definitely
0:50:24influenced my my thinking on that the
0:50:27evolution of that planet you go you go -
0:50:29yeah well that's right when I was
0:50:30thinking of Northern Ireland in the IRA
0:50:31but but you're right I think you can't
0:50:33set you really can't go around a corner
0:50:35in Ireland without running into some
0:50:38monument for somebody who basically
0:50:39killed a lot of English people yep
0:50:41English soldiers who were yeah that's
0:50:44that's that's part of the national
0:50:47identity there is throwing throwing off
0:50:48the the English so um well what else
0:50:52what else should people what else should
0:50:54people know about the setting of this to
0:50:56get them interested in reading this book
0:50:58if they have not yet what do you think
0:51:00um yeah I I think what intrigues me
0:51:04about it I mentioned already that that
0:51:05people are all there this is all human
0:51:08and I think that that's a big part of it
0:51:09for me as you know i I've read books
0:51:12that I've enjoyed where aliens are done
0:51:14very well but I have a lot of times
0:51:16where I feel like sometimes you know you
0:51:18look at like class
0:51:19Star Trek and like even next generation
0:51:20and people are just like ah aliens you
0:51:22know this is like people with funny
0:51:23foreheads and something about that I
0:51:25always found a little off-putting and so
0:51:27I really wanted to like delve into that
0:51:29and so you know that's a big part of it
0:51:32we've also got I think the the nature of
0:51:35intersystem travel and how that setup
0:51:37works towards making this an interesting
0:51:42universe because these things become
0:51:44strategic like where you can get it's
0:51:46kind of like having bridges right like
0:51:48where you can get and what the natural
0:51:50environment prevents you from doing
0:51:52makes a difference in terms of where you
0:51:57can easily like deploy military ships
0:51:59where are the lines drawn between these
0:52:02different superpowers like how does that
0:52:04play out in terms of getting people back
0:52:06and forth across borders like I think
0:52:09that's to me that was interesting rather
0:52:11than just having a much more open galaxy
0:52:14like you might see in something like
0:52:15Star Wars or Star Trek where it's like
0:52:16well you know like there are some
0:52:17political lines but like your your
0:52:19faster-than-light technology whatever
0:52:21lets you go anywhere you want
0:52:23essentially just whether or not you
0:52:25should be there whereas in this it's
0:52:26like well there's only certain routes to
0:52:29get between certain places so that
0:52:31becomes a matter of strategic importance
0:52:34it becomes a matter of military
0:52:35importance and its really it becomes
0:52:40integral to this story too I like the I
0:52:42like that it's strategic is the word
0:52:44that I was searching for there to that
0:52:46with with the Vorkosigan books with
0:52:49something like like Lost fleet is like
0:52:51that
0:52:52the the new Empire series by Scalzi uses
0:52:57this conceit of the you know jump gates
0:52:59basically Babylon 5 there are lots of
0:53:01examples of this but it does add that
0:53:03strategic Geographic thing it also feels
0:53:07a little bit like ticket to ride or
0:53:08something like that right was like favor
0:53:09everything is connected
0:53:10sometimes by weird routes but it means
0:53:13that you can cut somebody off and if
0:53:14everybody can just go everywhere it's uh
0:53:17it's that that's a different kind of
0:53:20galactic political situation to use
0:53:23you're right right now full of a of a
0:53:25friends so but it is I would say I
0:53:27haven't read this book several times in
0:53:29several different forms that this is
0:53:30this if I were to say
0:53:32it what this book is I would say it is a
0:53:35story about human beings who and and
0:53:39their relationships with with each other
0:53:41set inside a thriller about things with
0:53:48Galacta political consequences it's like
0:53:50those are the shells for me it's like at
0:53:52its core this is about not just
0:53:55relationships between people but
0:53:57especially like familial relationships
0:54:00and your main character is dealing with
0:54:02family history and baggage and cultural
0:54:04baggage and a and a planet that he
0:54:06basically fled a home he fled for
0:54:10reasons and then that's the core and
0:54:13then just outside of that is there is a
0:54:15there is a spy action thriller kind of
0:54:18plot that has to happen that he's
0:54:19involved with he gets caught up in and
0:54:21then outside that is all of the the
0:54:24political ramifications on the galaxy
0:54:27spanning scale of what's going on which
0:54:30is a nice it's a nice little turducken
0:54:32of a different story
0:54:34things happening there but people should
0:54:36I'd say some people I think read a space
0:54:39opera books for like galactic battles
0:54:42and details of made-up made-up weapons
0:54:44and made-up ships and things like that
0:54:46like tell me about this imaginary gun
0:54:48and how it fires and that's great
0:54:50this is that you've got some you know
0:54:52you've got some tech you've got some
0:54:54space tech and you got some some
0:54:57interesting stuff on that level but I I
0:54:59what I like about it is that at its
0:55:01heart you've got human characters and
0:55:03how they their baggage and how they
0:55:06react to each other actually if you go
0:55:08up the chain is going to affect the
0:55:10future the galaxy and that's pretty cool
0:55:12right right well I mean that and that is
0:55:14what I set out to do it's because that
0:55:15was one of the things I really loved
0:55:16about the Vorkosigan saga and also about
0:55:18stuff like um I really loved Timothy
0:55:20Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy
0:55:21I like people who are recognizable as
0:55:24people the expanse does this really well
0:55:26to you know people who are recognizable
0:55:28as people and I've read some sci-fi that
0:55:31is like we're you know like set so far
0:55:33in the future and it's post singularity
0:55:35and people aren't even human anymore
0:55:37right like and that's one type of thing
0:55:40but it's not something that a that
0:55:41speaks to me I wanted characters who
0:55:44have the same
0:55:46you know I I think you go you know for
0:55:49400 years in the future and people are
0:55:51still people and they have the same
0:55:53fears and hopes and dreams and
0:55:55attachments and conflicts that we have
0:55:59even today you know whether it be family
0:56:01or coworkers you know they're dealing
0:56:04with essentially very similar problems
0:56:06to you know ones that would be instantly
0:56:08recognizable to anybody who picks up
0:56:10this book and so that's that was what I
0:56:13was shooting for it was to make people
0:56:14who felt very human and are you know
0:56:17dealing with problems that are not
0:56:19totally alien to the kind of stuff that
0:56:21we all all have to deal with every day
0:56:24yeah no I think I think you did that and
0:56:27it's a fun it's a fun book I think
0:56:29people especially I do think you live up
0:56:31to your um how do I put this
0:56:35I can tell your love of the Vorkosigan
0:56:37books when I read it like I can
0:56:39recognize that and I love those books
0:56:40too and they're fun and I I had that
0:56:42same feeling of I wish there were more
0:56:44books like this where there are very
0:56:46interesting human characters but they
0:56:49get their problems are played out over
0:56:51this galactic spectacle which is fun I
0:56:54mean it's it's fun and I hope I hope
0:56:57people find it fun in even funny at
0:57:00farts oh yeah sure you know attempts to
0:57:02put in here where the the tone that I
0:57:04feel like I kind of shoot for and I
0:57:06don't know if this will be off-putting
0:57:06to some people or not but the the tone
0:57:09is kind of like that Marvel movie sort
0:57:11of tone where it's like there are
0:57:12serious moments of drama but there's
0:57:13also a lot of levity yeah and there's
0:57:15action and and stuff like that but like
0:57:17it's very very digestible yeah well so
0:57:19you've got you you definitely have
0:57:21characters with senses of humor and it
0:57:22comes out in different ways which is
0:57:24which is fun that that yeah it's
0:57:27definitely not as super serious like no
0:57:28no this is science fiction we must be
0:57:30serious it's not like that either so
0:57:32yeah well it's I guess available where
0:57:36books are sold
0:57:37yeah that hopefully I mean you can
0:57:40certainly find it on Amazon Barnes &
0:57:42Noble iBooks all those places you can
0:57:45check your local bookstore if they don't
0:57:46have it they'll probably order it for
0:57:48you no audio book yet but we can hope
0:57:50right that there might be down the road
0:57:52it's unclear right now is that right on
0:57:54unclear I don't I don't know don't
0:57:56really have anything to announce about
0:57:57that but
0:57:58I'm hopeful that at some point that will
0:58:00be something that people can enjoy yeah
0:58:02well that would be good that'd be good
0:58:04yeah cuz some people want audiobooks and
0:58:06that's yeah some people do want to
0:58:08what's the deal the deal you made with a
0:58:09publisher was not audio book publishing
0:58:11deal it was a print me book deal so any
0:58:13anything that would happen it would
0:58:15happen at some other time so we'll see
0:58:17I hope so though that would be nice yeah
0:58:19we're worse that comes to worse the
0:58:21incomparable will read your book dan
0:58:22[Music]
0:58:24people pay for that right they'll
0:58:26totally pay for that everybody take a
0:58:27page yep
0:58:28oh that now there's an idea now that
0:58:31seems like it really it seems like no
0:58:33one would have a good time with that
0:58:34including especially the listeners
0:58:36anything we didn't cover that you would
0:58:38like to cover in this special all day on
0:58:40Episode oh wow yeah that's a lot of
0:58:43pressure I'm trying to think if there's
0:58:44anything I mean I guess the short answer
0:58:47would be you know I feel like we have we
0:58:52have a great audience at the
0:58:54incomparable and I think that's been a
0:58:57huge help to me in over this time like
0:59:00people have been really very supportive
0:59:01and I've gotten a ton of tweets about
0:59:04people buying the book which is just
0:59:05incredibly heartwarming for me on
0:59:08something that I've worked for so long
0:59:09and really strove for for so long and I
0:59:12really appreciate everybody who bought
0:59:14the book I really appreciate everybody
0:59:15who's going to buy the book as you all
0:59:17are I'm sure but I also you know kind of
0:59:20want to say like hey I'm you know I
0:59:21started this out as like I think all
0:59:24writers pretty much I started out as a
0:59:26fan and you know to those of you who are
0:59:30sitting out there listening who maybe
0:59:31thought like I'd like to write a book
0:59:33someday I guess I just want to tell you
0:59:35that you can do this like it's not I
0:59:37showed you that that it is an achievable
0:59:40goal it's going to be hard it's going to
0:59:42take a ton of work but if you feel like
0:59:45that's something you want to do then you
0:59:47can absolutely do it and you know feel
0:59:51free to reach out to me I don't
0:59:53certainly this I'm embarking upon a new
0:59:55section of my own life here so I don't
0:59:57know that I will have all the answers or
0:59:59even any of you
0:59:59even any of you
1:00:00answers but I will try you know I try to
1:00:02sort of pay that forward as people have
1:00:04in the past paid it forward for me to
1:00:07try and help out and you know see if
1:00:09people can achieve that so know that you
1:00:11can do this and if you need help or
1:00:14advice feel free to to hit me up Twitter
1:00:16on my website what have you but
1:00:19especially we comparable fans cuz I'm
1:00:21I'm I'm one of you guys Dan you're
1:00:25making me want to go back to my novel
1:00:26rewrite it's an irony just that thanks
1:00:29which I've read it I've read several of
1:00:30your books
1:00:31yeah and and I feel like there's there's
1:00:34some really good stories there that I
1:00:35would love to see shared with more
1:00:37people that's a nice Monday would be
1:00:39nice and it's doable Jason it can be
1:00:42done it I've seen it be done and you
1:00:44know an agent you know a guy so - I do I
1:00:46know if you get well I'll get on that I
1:00:48I have to say quitting my job and going
1:00:50out on my own or or leaving my job I
1:00:52quit it and I didn't go out of my own
1:00:53because they kept me and then I left my
1:00:55job but uh that that threw threw a
1:00:57wrench into all of my kind of like
1:00:58separation between different projects
1:01:02and I that the writing the rewrites have
1:01:04struggled because of that like I always
1:01:06had that like I could write another six
1:01:08colors post and I need I need to block
1:01:09off time and say no at this time write
1:01:12your novel dummy it's an it's an it's an
1:01:15investment and honestly you know you and
1:01:17I both left at the same time yep and
1:01:18that was helpful for me because it
1:01:20really gave me an impetus to be like I'm
1:01:22gonna get this job focused focuses
1:01:24behind a little yeah so I really yeah I
1:01:28really had to kick my own but at that
1:01:29point be like you know what you've
1:01:30always wanted to do this and you're
1:01:31never gonna have a better opportunity
1:01:33yeah well and here you are so they can't
1:01:36act
1:01:36they can't take this away from you
1:01:37published on again horrid recall unless
1:01:41they run around for comment on all the
1:01:43bookstores Mitchell Brooks it's done no
1:01:45not that one just read the books alright
1:01:48well thank you Dan and thanks everybody
1:01:50for listening to this all day an epic
1:01:52comfortable the Caledonian gambit by Dan
1:01:54Morin is a published book from talos
1:01:57press that you can go by and you should
1:02:00buy it and buy two copies buy five
1:02:02copies give them to your friends or just
1:02:03leave them on a shelf somewhere and hug
1:02:05them occasionally whatever more I'm sure
1:02:09you'll hear more from Dan in the future
1:02:10in that you listen to a podcast Danis on
1:02:12of course
1:02:13and thanks for listening to the
1:02:15incomparable goodbye
1:02:27you
1:02:29[Music]