The Incomparable

151: Not Technically Incest


00:00:00   this episode of the uncomfortable is [TS]

00:00:01   sponsored by audible the best place to [TS]

00:00:03   find audio books online go to audible [TS]

00:00:06   podcast.com slash and comfortable to [TS]

00:00:10   learn [TS]

00:00:16   the incomparable number 151 july 2013 [TS]

00:00:22   welcome back to be uncomfortable this is [TS]

00:00:26   a an episode that I'd like to say i look [TS]

00:00:28   forward to for most of the year but i [TS]

00:00:31   think the most accurate thing is that it [TS]

00:00:32   takes me several months to prepare for [TS]

00:00:34   this episode because this is the episode [TS]

00:00:37   where we read and comment on the [TS]

00:00:40   nominees for the hugo award for best [TS]

00:00:42   novel and there are five nominees every [TS]

00:00:44   year which means some of us read all 5 [TS]

00:00:46   some of us read are not gluttons for [TS]

00:00:48   punishment only read some of the five [TS]

00:00:50   books that are nominated for for the [TS]

00:00:52   human award for best novel representing [TS]

00:00:54   the best in science fiction and fantasy [TS]

00:00:55   and related jon renau long-form fiction [TS]

00:00:59   for the year so we did it again we've [TS]

00:01:02   done this the last couple of years and [TS]

00:01:05   we're back so joining me on this journey [TS]

00:01:07   to read novels that were nominated for [TS]

00:01:10   awards bye-bye fans are my guest dan [TS]

00:01:15   morgan hi dan welcome back i Jes and [TS]

00:01:17   I've read by my calculations 3.73 of [TS]

00:01:21   these novels [TS]

00:01:22   alright fair enough we'll get into that [TS]

00:01:24   in more detail in a bit [TS]

00:01:26   Glenn Fleischman is also here Glenn good [TS]

00:01:28   to have you back on his delight to be [TS]

00:01:30   here and I believe I've read about 4.3 [TS]

00:01:33   of the novels which is my highest score [TS]

00:01:35   ever in these episodes [TS]

00:01:36   wow there's some serious bragging going [TS]

00:01:38   on Monty actually is also here Monty at [TS]

00:01:40   one point opted out because we were [TS]

00:01:42   going to record this a couple weeks ago [TS]

00:01:44   and then we didn't want he said just [TS]

00:01:46   wait i will read them how many did you [TS]

00:01:48   read Monty i read three of them and i [TS]

00:01:51   liked about one in three quarters haha [TS]

00:01:54   alright and Scott McNulty my partner in [TS]

00:01:58   crime who who tends to read all 5 I [TS]

00:02:00   assume you read all five right Scott I i [TS]

00:02:03   have read all 5 much like you but i have [TS]

00:02:06   read all 5 all the way through every [TS]

00:02:08   bitter bitter age do you know there were [TS]

00:02:11   some pretty bad and I want to argue that [TS]

00:02:14   these represent the best in science [TS]

00:02:16   fiction and fantasy of the year because [TS]

00:02:18   we do you want to argue for or us [TS]

00:02:21   I'm arguing again [TS]

00:02:22   let's see hey I have a meta argument i [TS]

00:02:25   want to discuss later about that nature [TS]

00:02:26   of what is the best but we can talk [TS]

00:02:28   about that later [TS]

00:02:28   alright let's go through the books first [TS]

00:02:30   and then maybe we can get meta at the [TS]

00:02:32   end i also have a6 book that i'm going [TS]

00:02:34   to mention what I mean nominated for a [TS]

00:02:36   nebula warden is very good much better [TS]

00:02:38   than any of these books actually and [TS]

00:02:40   Scott agrees with me I i know in advance [TS]

00:02:42   because he's been raving about it or he [TS]

00:02:44   agrees somewhat with me [TS]

00:02:46   so what this is but yes just increase [TS]

00:02:50   your heat i read a book from last year I [TS]

00:02:53   like I don't think that this is my [TS]

00:02:54   editing method with the incomparable is [TS]

00:02:56   that I declare things to be fact if [TS]

00:02:58   there later proven wrong i remove all [TS]

00:03:00   traces of my decoration and they're [TS]

00:03:02   clever i am never wrong [TS]

00:03:04   alright so we should start with the two [TS]

00:03:07   books that we've covered previously [TS]

00:03:10   showing that we do have a nose for [TS]

00:03:12   nominal works of some of some kind of [TS]

00:03:17   two of these books we've done episodes [TS]

00:03:19   about already haha [TS]

00:03:21   john scalzi is booked redshirts was [TS]

00:03:24   covered in detail in episode 201 of the [TS]

00:03:27   incomparable titled insular nervous fear [TS]

00:03:30   where we talked about his a very [TS]

00:03:33   interesting kind of meta discussion of [TS]

00:03:35   red shirts on a spaceship that is [TS]

00:03:39   remarkably like the USS enterprise which [TS]

00:03:41   turns out is actually inside a TV show [TS]

00:03:45   and that's why the plots that their [TS]

00:03:47   lives are revolving around make very [TS]

00:03:50   little sense so we talked about this a [TS]

00:03:53   little bit uh Glen and Scot were on that [TS]

00:03:57   show dan and Monty I have you both red [TS]

00:04:02   red shirts i have all right so why don't [TS]

00:04:04   you guys let's start with Monty tell me [TS]

00:04:07   tell me what you thought of Richard's I [TS]

00:04:09   liked the middle part at the beginning I [TS]

00:04:13   thought the middle part where they [TS]

00:04:15   realize they were in a TV show and went [TS]

00:04:16   to earth where the TV show is being [TS]

00:04:18   produced that yes that at the beginning [TS]

00:04:21   when they were purposely running into [TS]

00:04:25   all the tropes i thought was kind of [TS]

00:04:28   obvious and boring and there's about 80 [TS]

00:04:30   pages after the end of the book when [TS]

00:04:33   scalzi wonders often into some weird [TS]

00:04:36   writing exercises that I didn't care for [TS]

00:04:38   it all to kodys yeah the code as I felt [TS]

00:04:42   were completely extraneous to the actual [TS]

00:04:44   story and hug me up bug me a lot because [TS]

00:04:48   i thought i was finally done [TS]

00:04:50   kind of like one of those codes as i [TS]

00:04:51   recall just because I felt like there [TS]

00:04:54   was some humanity in it that maybe was [TS]

00:04:55   missing from all of the winking and [TS]

00:04:57   nudging that had been going on before it [TS]

00:05:00   that that up but it was a an abrupt [TS]

00:05:02   tonal shift to suddenly have it be like [TS]

00:05:04   hey remember those funny jokes about [TS]

00:05:07   those guys who died they were real [TS]

00:05:08   people and people mourn their passing [TS]

00:05:10   the goat cheese but i'd finally gotten [TS]

00:05:13   to the point where i was accepting the [TS]

00:05:14   winking indulging I was like all right [TS]

00:05:16   I've been enjoyed this book on its own [TS]

00:05:17   self referential level right fine [TS]

00:05:21   it's too late to make it tried them make [TS]

00:05:24   me start caring about these guys [TS]

00:05:26   yeah yeah I can see that dan I know you [TS]

00:05:28   had this book on your bookshelf for a [TS]

00:05:30   long time I didn't and I and I read it [TS]

00:05:32   and I enjoyed it i'm a fan of skulls [TS]

00:05:34   these work in general this this seems to [TS]

00:05:35   me to fall pretty clearly into the he's [TS]

00:05:38   got a couple different veins of writing [TS]

00:05:40   i feel like i'm so i really like his [TS]

00:05:43   stuff in the in the old man's war [TS]

00:05:45   universe and we talked about the human [TS]

00:05:46   division also a recent polycast this [TS]

00:05:49   strikes me very much of reminding me of [TS]

00:05:51   a the androids dream which is another [TS]

00:05:53   book he wrote his well your novels yeah [TS]

00:05:55   he writes he's not necessarily quite as [TS]

00:05:59   successful as someone like Douglas Adams [TS]

00:06:01   or terry pratchett when it comes to just [TS]

00:06:03   sort of being like I'm just gonna do [TS]

00:06:04   total surrealist humor he does something [TS]

00:06:07   that I i think a little bit it's still [TS]

00:06:09   kind of grounded in a plot and it still [TS]

00:06:12   has like a dramatic side to it but it's [TS]

00:06:15   also kind of if you sort of take a step [TS]

00:06:17   back holy ridiculous the same time and [TS]

00:06:21   entertaining especially as someone who's [TS]

00:06:24   you know watched a lot of star trek in [TS]

00:06:26   the past it's definitely hits those [TS]

00:06:28   chords and the metafictional stuff is is [TS]

00:06:30   I didn't just like it to the extent that [TS]

00:06:32   Monty did I thought it was fine and I [TS]

00:06:34   mean it's also i find you know we're [TS]

00:06:37   talking about now and i read it two or [TS]

00:06:39   three months ago and i found i forgot [TS]

00:06:42   most like I remember what I remember the [TS]

00:06:44   sort of general outlines of it but if [TS]

00:06:46   you ask me like I had to look up a [TS]

00:06:47   wikipedia page remember the names of the [TS]

00:06:49   characters which I guess makes sense [TS]

00:06:51   because they're red shirts but yeah it's [TS]

00:06:53   a super light but yeah there were [TS]

00:06:56   characters in the book they were kind of [TS]

00:06:57   in well I remember the the wife of the [TS]

00:07:00   guy who died [TS]

00:07:02   oh yeah well I don't know yeah maybe [TS]

00:07:05   that's just because i was at the end or [TS]

00:07:07   maybe it's because I again I I cared [TS]

00:07:09   about that it would suddenly was sad [TS]

00:07:11   these guys were all died right so I mean [TS]

00:07:13   I you know I give it a thumbs up but I [TS]

00:07:16   don't know if I would call it my my [TS]

00:07:17   favorite you know sci-fi novel or the [TS]

00:07:19   best sci-fi novel of the year [TS]

00:07:20   yeah I thought it was a pleasant [TS]

00:07:22   diversion kind of a fun read [TS]

00:07:26   I would not have guessed that it would [TS]

00:07:28   be nominated for anything except that [TS]

00:07:32   John Scalzi has a lot of people on the [TS]

00:07:34   internet who liked him a lot [TS]

00:07:35   I think I think you've hit on something [TS]

00:07:37   your mom hey yes that's a cream i think [TS]

00:07:40   possibly possible awards are a [TS]

00:07:43   popularity contest is that what you're [TS]

00:07:45   suggesting [TS]

00:07:45   turns out it's true especially the huge [TS]

00:07:48   well not especially but Hugo's by design [TS]

00:07:50   right you can [TS]

00:07:51   they're voted for by fans so obviously [TS]

00:07:55   if if you who have $65 or more writing [TS]

00:07:57   so that does that does remove a lot of [TS]

00:08:00   people from the running [TS]

00:08:01   yeah my core audience only has like [TS]

00:08:03   twenty bucks that's why I wanted to work [TS]

00:08:05   there are only uh only 1113 ballots cast [TS]

00:08:10   also for the best level this year so [TS]

00:08:12   they're not a lot of sample size [TS]

00:08:15   yeah nostril you feel I feel like you [TS]

00:08:18   should be able to mobilize pretty head [TS]

00:08:20   about that you really want they did and [TS]

00:08:22   there how many people really read again [TS]

00:08:24   we're getting a little metal already but [TS]

00:08:25   how many people really read enough [TS]

00:08:27   novels to be able to pick five and [TS]

00:08:31   savings to the best five in the sauna [TS]

00:08:33   and the answer is scott is the only [TS]

00:08:35   person i know they might be able to do [TS]

00:08:37   that might be able to do that unless [TS]

00:08:39   you're a professional reviewer working [TS]

00:08:41   for some public yeah exactly instead [TS]

00:08:42   what happened is your fan and you ready [TS]

00:08:44   obviously and and six of them were by [TS]

00:08:47   people you're a fan of anyway and you [TS]

00:08:49   nominate them and red shirts with a very [TS]

00:08:50   high-profile book high enough for us to [TS]

00:08:53   put it on our list and do an episode [TS]

00:08:55   about it and yeah I think you read I [TS]

00:08:58   think you read one book because you're a [TS]

00:08:59   fan of [TS]

00:09:00   someone on this list and you nominated [TS]

00:09:02   also and that's how it gets onto yeah I [TS]

00:09:05   think that's I think that's a part of it [TS]

00:09:06   this is this is part of the I mean this [TS]

00:09:08   is what every awards not just the hugo [TS]

00:09:10   awards oscars are like this i mean there [TS]

00:09:12   are lots of things like that were you [TS]

00:09:13   you people who are more visible are [TS]

00:09:15   going to have a better chance of being [TS]

00:09:16   that doesn't mean doesn't guarantee if [TS]

00:09:18   Richards had been a disappointment for [TS]

00:09:20   scholars fanbase it would have got [TS]

00:09:22   nominated but he has a fanbase and [TS]

00:09:25   that's really liked it and they [TS]

00:09:26   nominated the power-law curve in action [TS]

00:09:29   and the Wil Wheaton audiobook I know is [TS]

00:09:31   very popular with people so i think that [TS]

00:09:33   that it channels into the insular [TS]

00:09:35   nervous fear like we talked about an [TS]

00:09:36   episode 201 where there's this whole [TS]

00:09:38   culture of people who are pals with each [TS]

00:09:41   other and promote each other stuff and [TS]

00:09:43   and that's powerful that that's a [TS]

00:09:45   powerful marketing tool it's true and [TS]

00:09:47   there's nothing there's nothing wrong [TS]

00:09:48   with that and there's nothing wrong with [TS]

00:09:50   the as long as you come into the Hugo's [TS]

00:09:52   knowing that and and writing these books [TS]

00:09:54   that's fine when i first started doing [TS]

00:09:57   this I didn't really understand how the [TS]

00:10:01   Hugo's work so I just assumed that the [TS]

00:10:04   they were you know this is the best book [TS]

00:10:06   of the year in science fiction and [TS]

00:10:08   fantasy based on some kind of you know [TS]

00:10:10   laws of the universe right and so when I [TS]

00:10:13   am ready to crunch the numbers exactly [TS]

00:10:15   these in the old Hugo tron 5008 products [TS]

00:10:19   the best book I believe they have the [TS]

00:10:21   frozen brain of Hugo Gernsback who [TS]

00:10:23   actually then they asked he's not dead [TS]

00:10:26   he's not that's a lie i but i mean there [TS]

00:10:28   are ways to run a word contest in which [TS]

00:10:30   you are it's not that you're requiring [TS]

00:10:32   everyone to watch your read everything [TS]

00:10:33   and even the Academy Awards I know those [TS]

00:10:36   are also of course the popularity [TS]

00:10:37   contests but there's this issue of if [TS]

00:10:39   you were in an industry and your part of [TS]

00:10:42   it and you read and observing your you [TS]

00:10:45   know your message to the media then you [TS]

00:10:47   may have a better sense of picking which [TS]

00:10:49   the best one is or the best then you get [TS]

00:10:51   the nebula whatever you know yeah yeah [TS]

00:10:53   we're definitely the best fan podcast by [TS]

00:10:57   us specifically well that's been proven [TS]

00:11:01   by science i mean i'm pretty confident [TS]

00:11:03   I'm pretty comfortable taking her second [TS]

00:11:04   wards are completely valid by the way [TS]

00:11:06   just so ya know somewhere in every way [TS]

00:11:08   in the neutral every source alone and we [TS]

00:11:11   know it because it [TS]

00:11:12   of that one of the fastest of sciences [TS]

00:11:14   that your results be repeatable and we [TS]

00:11:15   won for best fan who might cast fan / [TS]

00:11:19   news / something general podcast that [TS]

00:11:22   was that just rolls right off your [TS]

00:11:23   tongue there Jason admit it so much [TS]

00:11:26   suffice to say the category included a [TS]

00:11:28   slash and parentheses but we won that [TS]

00:11:30   and we were nominated again this year [TS]

00:11:32   which again scientifically proves that [TS]

00:11:34   they know what they're doing and [TS]

00:11:36   therefore proves that we are great [TS]

00:11:38   incidentally don't vote for us in a [TS]

00:11:40   podcast about science because we don't [TS]

00:11:43   know anything about that you lose but of [TS]

00:11:46   all the many many many awards of one [TS]

00:11:48   this is the only one yes [TS]

00:11:50   so anyway red shirts you know I I'm am [TS]

00:11:53   agreeing with you guys I think it was [TS]

00:11:56   fine and kind of funny and as a Star [TS]

00:11:58   Trek fan i liked a lot of those [TS]

00:12:00   illusions and I like the idea that they [TS]

00:12:02   were you know that scholars playing with [TS]

00:12:05   that you expect it to be the single joke [TS]

00:12:08   book and it's got some more twist up its [TS]

00:12:10   sleeve like Monty said that leads that [TS]

00:12:12   interesting middleware they're dealing [TS]

00:12:13   with a writer on the TV show and because [TS]

00:12:15   this thing about writers kind of [TS]

00:12:17   freezing up when they realize these [TS]

00:12:19   decisions they're making likely for [TS]

00:12:21   drama are affecting real people in a [TS]

00:12:23   parallel universe somewhere and I we [TS]

00:12:26   don't want to kotas i thought was was [TS]

00:12:28   nice although a lot of fun about up [TS]

00:12:30   total shift so yeah I i would not read [TS]

00:12:32   this book and say oh man this is better [TS]

00:12:34   be on that Hugo list but I didn't hate [TS]

00:12:36   it i liked it i thought it was fine i [TS]

00:12:38   just thought it was kind of light and [TS]

00:12:40   funny and breezy and not anything that I [TS]

00:12:44   thought this is a meaningful book that [TS]

00:12:45   I'm gonna be remembering 10 years from [TS]

00:12:47   now i agree with you Jason completely oh [TS]

00:12:49   well the feedback episode people will be [TS]

00:12:51   very angry at that I igers well though [TS]

00:12:55   the only thing I described as after i [TS]

00:12:56   read it i thought well this is getting [TS]

00:12:57   nominated for a human [TS]

00:12:58   oh yeah but because of the policies not [TS]

00:13:00   because i work right [TS]

00:13:02   yeah Kara yeah well I mean yeah it hits [TS]

00:13:04   all the all the right notes [TS]

00:13:06   let's move on and I mentioned the other [TS]

00:13:08   book that we covered in a previous [TS]

00:13:10   episode I look these up so I can refer [TS]

00:13:12   all of our interest to them episode 117 [TS]

00:13:15   titled intergalactic fedex which was [TS]

00:13:18   about lois mcmaster Pujols latest [TS]

00:13:21   installment in the Vorkosigan saga which [TS]

00:13:24   we like and we've done [TS]

00:13:25   uh we did a whole podcast about the [TS]

00:13:27   earlier books in the series episode 24 [TS]

00:13:29   way on way back in 24 called my word is [TS]

00:13:32   foreclosed again and these are really [TS]

00:13:34   fun books and this was the latest and [TS]

00:13:37   it's a little different cause it's not [TS]

00:13:38   about miles or miles parents it's about [TS]

00:13:40   his cousin eivin and i as we said that [TS]

00:13:44   at the time back in December and that [TS]

00:13:47   was a podcast with Dan Scott and ran on [TS]

00:13:49   it [TS]

00:13:50   I this is a I thought this was one of [TS]

00:13:53   the best for cosine books in quite a [TS]

00:13:55   while and was again like Richards kind [TS]

00:13:58   of light and funny but i liked it i I [TS]

00:14:01   thought it was better than her last two [TS]

00:14:02   or three again i'm not sure i would say [TS]

00:14:05   it has the weight or meaning or anything [TS]

00:14:07   to be at nominee but every for cosecant [TS]

00:14:09   novel ever seems to have been nominated [TS]

00:14:10   for a hugo or so okay we'll do that [TS]

00:14:13   again the land and Monty you weren't on [TS]

00:14:16   that episode did you guys read it [TS]

00:14:18   yes I've never made it through a [TS]

00:14:21   varicose again [TS]

00:14:22   ok try to even try alright fair enough [TS]

00:14:24   to Glen Gillman tell us your tell us [TS]

00:14:26   your thoughts about what I've never read [TS]

00:14:28   any of them although i've heard you guys [TS]

00:14:29   talking about there's something a little [TS]

00:14:31   daunting about when someone's created [TS]

00:14:32   this world this massive set of novels [TS]

00:14:34   you like if I go down that you know that [TS]

00:14:37   path there's a lot to read which is [TS]

00:14:39   great but it's also using sort of [TS]

00:14:41   daunting to figure out where you started [TS]

00:14:43   describing my 2010 Glenn I when I swear [TS]

00:14:46   I read that's ten of these do right now [TS]

00:14:49   well there's a diagram in Captain for [TS]

00:14:51   patrols the lights it's like here's how [TS]

00:14:53   the books related i'm like oh my god [TS]

00:14:55   this is like worse than taken any any [TS]

00:14:57   book with a diagram that sometimes but [TS]

00:14:59   that's so with no background I barely [TS]

00:15:01   even know what the universe is about [TS]

00:15:03   picked it up and I thought it was a [TS]

00:15:06   lightweight but enjoyable by I could [TS]

00:15:08   also tell if I bujold is a terrific [TS]

00:15:11   writer she tells a good story she paints [TS]

00:15:14   characters in sort of broad strokes that [TS]

00:15:16   are ok and sometimes she goes in and [TS]

00:15:18   then does the detail work to refine them [TS]

00:15:20   a bit but this was sort of a like a [TS]

00:15:22   silly slightly buffoonish story where [TS]

00:15:25   everybody's kind of happy in the end [TS]

00:15:27   more lesson Lee you know so i thought it [TS]

00:15:30   was I thought it was enjoyable did not [TS]

00:15:31   for me have the half [TS]

00:15:32   of what i would expect from a hugo award [TS]

00:15:35   nominated novel but I didn't read the [TS]

00:15:37   other novels that were not nominated [TS]

00:15:39   this year of all to read the ones that [TS]

00:15:40   were kind of light on the side by side [TS]

00:15:42   in the last year or last year's you know [TS]

00:15:44   children and so I didn't you know I [TS]

00:15:48   wouldn't you know this isn't a dune [TS]

00:15:49   right i mean this isn't something of [TS]

00:15:50   that nature and it's not like a [TS]

00:15:53   hitchhiker's guide either and you don't [TS]

00:15:54   get those every year I realized but this [TS]

00:15:56   seemed like with red shirts pretty [TS]

00:15:57   lightweight to be put in this category [TS]

00:15:59   alongside books like that that have been [TS]

00:16:01   nominated in the past I just don't know [TS]

00:16:03   if this year was a weaker or stronger [TS]

00:16:05   than usual and we're seeing weaker [TS]

00:16:07   titles nominate yeah I it's uh she gets [TS]

00:16:09   nominated every time she's got a book [TS]

00:16:11   and she's won several times so it [TS]

00:16:14   definitely is one of those things where [TS]

00:16:16   it's almost it would be shocking if I if [TS]

00:16:18   a crucial book didn't get nominated cryo [TS]

00:16:21   burn which i think is in almost every [TS]

00:16:24   way an inferior except maybe the last [TS]

00:16:27   five pages and inferior book to capital [TS]

00:16:30   for patrols Alliance you know it got [TS]

00:16:32   nominated and this is a that I think [TS]

00:16:35   this is much better but that's what I [TS]

00:16:36   would say about it is is by bujold [TS]

00:16:38   standards i think this is a this is the [TS]

00:16:40   best uh your cousin book she's written [TS]

00:16:43   in years and other stuff is more the the [TS]

00:16:45   main novels are more serious right like [TS]

00:16:48   lots is like murderface literally very [TS]

00:16:50   very that some of them are very [TS]

00:16:52   adventurous and some of them are are [TS]

00:16:53   more comedy of manners like oh yeah [TS]

00:16:56   because they seem to keep referring to [TS]

00:16:57   genocides all over the place it's like [TS]

00:16:59   well they're funny Genesis yeah there's [TS]

00:17:02   a lot I mean there's there's war novels [TS]

00:17:03   there's murder mysteries it kind of runs [TS]

00:17:05   all the the genre like sort of across a [TS]

00:17:08   bunch of genres and monitor cloudy okay [TS]

00:17:10   I'll tell you this having read this book [TS]

00:17:12   i'm like i'm actually highly inclined to [TS]

00:17:14   seek out other novels because it's clear [TS]

00:17:16   she writes and I'll get some advice [TS]

00:17:17   about which ones to go through but but [TS]

00:17:20   it was so that in that sense it was a [TS]

00:17:21   good good agreed to short short version [TS]

00:17:24   for me is that they this series starts [TS]

00:17:27   with two books that were published i [TS]

00:17:30   think many years apart but most lot lot [TS]

00:17:33   of them were written together generally [TS]

00:17:35   publishes an omnibus called Cordelia's [TS]

00:17:37   honor but it's actually two books shards [TS]

00:17:39   of honor and Barry are which are about [TS]

00:17:41   miles for coast against parents meeting [TS]

00:17:43   and I think I do [TS]

00:17:46   best thing to do is just to start with [TS]

00:17:47   those two books I'd that's what i did [TS]

00:17:48   and i thought they were great and then [TS]

00:17:50   you can get into the miles books as well [TS]

00:17:52   after that so I read them [TS]

00:17:53   chronologically by continuity instead of [TS]

00:17:55   by publishing date and that's everything [TS]

00:17:58   that comes in definitely anything by [TS]

00:18:00   continuity but i'm having a rather [TS]

00:18:02   enjoyed well I mean a couple of the [TS]

00:18:04   later ones are not not-so-great [TS]

00:18:05   diplomatic immunity is to me the weakest [TS]

00:18:08   in the entire series from the sort of [TS]

00:18:10   main novels perspective you know it but [TS]

00:18:12   it's not good series and you'll enjoy it [TS]

00:18:14   all and all good and it's fun it's not [TS]

00:18:16   one of those things also where you get [TS]

00:18:18   to the end of a book and think that [TS]

00:18:19   you've been short-changed and I there [TS]

00:18:22   you have to buy the next book to get the [TS]

00:18:23   rest of the story it's not like that it [TS]

00:18:25   sits there all self-contained plus [TS]

00:18:27   there's kind of continuity that runs [TS]

00:18:29   through them so I do recommend them just [TS]

00:18:31   good writer house captain for patrols [TS]

00:18:33   full text of the treaty Alliance title [TS]

00:18:35   though is that good or should i skip [TS]

00:18:37   that one [TS]

00:18:37   I pass on that on all all that material [TS]

00:18:40   yeah that's not so good Upton captain [TS]

00:18:42   for accounting well before we move on to [TS]

00:18:44   the three that we haven't we haven't [TS]

00:18:45   talked about yet i'd like to talk for a [TS]

00:18:47   moment about our sponsor [TS]

00:18:49   oh it's that time and strangely our [TS]

00:18:52   sponsor is incredibly relevant to this [TS]

00:18:54   episode because our sponsor is [TS]

00:18:56   audible.com the leading provider of [TS]

00:19:00   audiobooks the best place to find audio [TS]

00:19:02   books online you can sign up [TS]

00:19:05   I and you get a you get a free month [TS]

00:19:08   which means you get a free book you got [TS]

00:19:11   audible podcast.com slash incomparable [TS]

00:19:15   that simple audible podcast.com slash [TS]

00:19:18   and comfortable to learn more i was [TS]

00:19:19   looking I believe every Hugo nominated [TS]

00:19:21   book that we're going to be talking [TS]

00:19:22   about is on audible of course like i was [TS]

00:19:26   saying with the nervous fear john scalzi [TS]

00:19:28   book redshirts read by wilwheaton now [TS]

00:19:32   Jason I'm going to be going on a [TS]

00:19:34   five-hour road trip this weekend [TS]

00:19:35   interests recommend i get an audio book [TS]

00:19:38   well it depends it do you enjoy books [TS]

00:19:41   and and life [TS]

00:19:45   yes I'm wiser careful i'm bid on the [TS]

00:19:47   other do enjoy words and the sound of [TS]

00:19:49   words in your ears as you drive [TS]

00:19:52   that's the best place I like sounded [TS]

00:19:53   that the sound of round is in your ears [TS]

00:19:56   yes good alright well then i do [TS]

00:19:57   recommend it now I wouldn't recommend [TS]

00:19:59   that [TS]

00:19:59   you listen to one of these books that [TS]

00:20:00   you've already read because that unless [TS]

00:20:02   you really enjoyed it but for fans of [TS]

00:20:06   wil wheaton from TVs Wesley Crusher hehe [TS]

00:20:10   red red shirts captain for patrols [TS]

00:20:13   Alliance which we we just talked about [TS]

00:20:14   that that's available unabridged is the [TS]

00:20:18   audiobook just wil wheaton reading [TS]

00:20:19   silently to himself the book you [TS]

00:20:22   occasionally here and go haha pretty [TS]

00:20:24   produced by john cage that's the [TS]

00:20:26   accompanying video shot usually chuckles [TS]

00:20:29   there's a coming up we're going to be [TS]

00:20:32   talking about some other books they are [TS]

00:20:33   available mirror grants blackout for [TS]

00:20:35   example you can listen to it it as we're [TS]

00:20:38   going to get to in a moment blackout has [TS]

00:20:41   two narrators and so the book on the [TS]

00:20:43   bridge again has to readers so you can [TS]

00:20:47   adjust the series of clicks and whistles [TS]

00:20:48   you can get ahead shipping perspective [TS]

00:20:50   throw the Christmas there they're all [TS]

00:20:52   they're all up there on audible.com and [TS]

00:20:54   we thank them for being a sponsor and [TS]

00:20:57   you could try it out so is this is the [TS]

00:20:58   leading provider of audiobooks on the [TS]

00:20:59   internet you can sign up and try try it [TS]

00:21:03   out for free to start and get a book and [TS]

00:21:06   give it a listen and they're very nice [TS]

00:21:08   people who have a huge catalogue of [TS]

00:21:10   audio books online lots of great stuff [TS]

00:21:12   every book practically that we've talked [TS]

00:21:14   about in the history of the podcast has [TS]

00:21:16   usually unabridged version on audible so [TS]

00:21:20   again to sign up and and try your free [TS]

00:21:24   trial and learn more about how you can [TS]

00:21:26   sign up for audible this is the magic [TS]

00:21:27   URL that makes us happy and makes them [TS]

00:21:29   happy for sponsoring us it's audible [TS]

00:21:32   podcast.com slash incomparable and [TS]

00:21:35   thanks again to audible for sponsoring [TS]

00:21:37   the incomparable who was what should we [TS]

00:21:41   do next [TS]

00:21:41   uh let's talk about let's all throw [TS]

00:21:44   celebrity dress maybe we should quit [TS]

00:21:45   while we're at it let's talk about [TS]

00:21:47   throne of the crescent moon by solid on [TS]

00:21:49   off-net let's talk about that yeah this [TS]

00:21:51   uh I i thought this was pretty good so [TS]

00:21:53   let's let's who Scott do you remember [TS]

00:21:56   anything about this but I remember that [TS]

00:22:00   it struck me as a cool D&D campaign that [TS]

00:22:05   someone wrote down haha [TS]

00:22:07   well and I thought it was entertaining [TS]

00:22:09   but I didn't really think I was [TS]

00:22:12   surprised that was nominated for [TS]

00:22:14   anything I was not disappointed that it [TS]

00:22:16   was nominated but I was surprised so [TS]

00:22:18   this i thought this was a fun book let [TS]

00:22:20   me explain a little bit about what this [TS]

00:22:22   is it's a fantasy adventure it's very [TS]

00:22:25   Arabian Nights this is in a kind of [TS]

00:22:27   unnamed place that is is either in the [TS]

00:22:31   Middle East or it's in a middle-eastern [TS]

00:22:33   analog there are some references to [TS]

00:22:36   places that we might assume to be Europe [TS]

00:22:38   in Asia and there's a there's a guy [TS]

00:22:42   who's basically the fighter of uh of [TS]

00:22:46   supernatural things he sort of a and [TS]

00:22:50   he's old and grizzled but he's he's I [TS]

00:22:52   couldn't decide whether he was sort of a [TS]

00:22:54   an Arabian Nights Fox Mulder or an [TS]

00:22:58   Arabian Nights buffy the vampire slayer [TS]

00:23:00   because actually this felt to me like a [TS]

00:23:02   fairly standard supernatural or or the [TS]

00:23:05   supernatural brothers honestly Dan to me [TS]

00:23:08   it seemed like the plot wasn't the way [TS]

00:23:10   it was something I've seen before it was [TS]

00:23:12   almost like the trappings where the [TS]

00:23:14   thing that was interest most interesting [TS]

00:23:16   about it that it was in this middle [TS]

00:23:17   eastern setting and it was less familiar [TS]

00:23:19   to me than any episode of Buffy or [TS]

00:23:21   supernatural it was like they took a [TS]

00:23:23   regular fantasy novel which is in kind [TS]

00:23:25   of a vaguely Western European medieval [TS]

00:23:27   right venue changed it to a vaguely [TS]

00:23:31   middle-eastern venue [TS]

00:23:33   yes and because we haven't seen that a [TS]

00:23:35   million times it feels fresh and new [TS]

00:23:37   pressure i liked the character I mean I [TS]

00:23:40   the main character I I thought [TS]

00:23:41   particularly again if you're comparing [TS]

00:23:43   it to a lot of the typical fantasy [TS]

00:23:46   novels that we read you don't have your [TS]

00:23:47   young strapping hero right you had your [TS]

00:23:49   old slightly decrepit hero yeah but it [TS]

00:23:52   is master and apprentice right and he's [TS]

00:23:54   the I seen enough of this crap I'm two [TS]

00:23:58   months from retirement investment about [TS]

00:24:01   one less collar to make and then i get [TS]

00:24:02   that he's got his young idealistic [TS]

00:24:04   sidekick [TS]

00:24:05   I I certainly saw to a dnd prism like [TS]

00:24:08   the old guy while he's the cleric and [TS]

00:24:11   he's got a paladin who's holier than [TS]

00:24:13   thou and then they meet the fighter lady [TS]

00:24:16   wow it's funny because I i happen to [TS]

00:24:18   know that the the [TS]

00:24:19   that Saladin ran my D&D campaign with an [TS]

00:24:23   acquaintance of my kool so I know he i [TS]

00:24:25   know he plays DVD release has run deeply [TS]

00:24:28   and cracked the code my god I mean who [TS]

00:24:31   didn't start out writing writing novels [TS]

00:24:33   versions of their d campaigns not me [TS]

00:24:36   well and then the party argued for three [TS]

00:24:38   hours or four would pay for the pizza [TS]

00:24:41   don't egg lat a glass vision with dark [TS]

00:24:43   here eating out of the sand some great [TS]

00:24:47   stuff in it but it was was a novella or [TS]

00:24:50   maybe a short story that just kept going [TS]

00:24:52   on and on and on the payoff was sort of [TS]

00:24:54   terrible and they had set up kind of [TS]

00:24:57   weave together a bunch of different [TS]

00:24:59   things were supposed to enjoy the sort [TS]

00:25:01   of coincidence or whatever and it's like [TS]

00:25:02   ah you know that your if it had been we [TS]

00:25:06   have been nominated for Best novella or [TS]

00:25:07   short story this year we probably have [TS]

00:25:09   talked about it relatively positively as [TS]

00:25:11   something that was fresh that that [TS]

00:25:12   presented as a new viewpoint wasn't [TS]

00:25:15   rehashing a lot of the common fantasy [TS]

00:25:17   myths brought in you know some [TS]

00:25:18   interesting unique elements in a few [TS]

00:25:20   strong characters but as a novel it just [TS]

00:25:22   it was too thin [TS]

00:25:23   I you know it's interesting i read well [TS]

00:25:26   taking a break from one of the other [TS]

00:25:27   humans i read that some of that some of [TS]

00:25:30   these cup of some of his short stories [TS]

00:25:32   including one that is set in this world [TS]

00:25:34   with the same characters it's about the [TS]

00:25:36   first meeting of the master and the [TS]

00:25:38   apprentice and I enjoyed that I mean it [TS]

00:25:40   was a pretty quick read it was nice [TS]

00:25:42   short story but it was um I i think i [TS]

00:25:44   think there's some meat on those [TS]

00:25:45   characters the directions and yes well [TS]

00:25:47   they we may have seen some of that type [TS]

00:25:49   of stuff before I still found it [TS]

00:25:51   intriguing and entertaining and let me [TS]

00:25:53   tell you compared to some of the other [TS]

00:25:55   books [TS]

00:25:56   yeah yeah ipi page through this one [TS]

00:25:59   pretty pretty at a pretty good clip [TS]

00:26:01   I thought it was kind of a mistake to [TS]

00:26:02   have a cool Robin Hood type character [TS]

00:26:04   and then not spend a lot of time with [TS]

00:26:06   him because he's more fun than the [TS]

00:26:08   stuck-up kid but also the strongest [TS]

00:26:11   element is that really horrible thing we [TS]

00:26:13   are the spoiler alert goes off before we [TS]

00:26:15   even start the episode right spoiler [TS]

00:26:17   harm's way [TS]

00:26:21   this the creepy thing of the beginning a [TS]

00:26:24   lot of the chapters where that guy is [TS]

00:26:25   being you know essentially killed alive [TS]

00:26:28   then boiled his head remover like that [TS]

00:26:30   is very strong and horrifying and [TS]

00:26:32   compelling and he keeps the suspense up [TS]

00:26:34   and then the actual thing is oh he's [TS]

00:26:36   like a sergeant and all his men will [TS]

00:26:38   respond to him is like really that's the [TS]

00:26:40   whole payoff of that yellow thing [TS]

00:26:42   oh I was actually the most disappointing [TS]

00:26:44   things the novel the whole climax I i [TS]

00:26:46   really liked I mean I say that it's got [TS]

00:26:49   these trappings and otherwise it seems [TS]

00:26:50   pretty standard [TS]

00:26:51   I like the trappings I like that the the [TS]

00:26:54   Prince kind of comes and goes and he's [TS]

00:26:56   he's too powerful character almost it's [TS]

00:26:58   not his story but he you know that he's [TS]

00:27:01   gonna cause he's going to cause some [TS]

00:27:02   trouble but at the end you know you do [TS]

00:27:05   end up in this situation where there in [TS]

00:27:06   this palace and it's it's like it's [TS]

00:27:10   almost like a runaround Aurora are far [TS]

00:27:12   swear their various rooms in their [TS]

00:27:14   various doors that open and don't even [TS]

00:27:16   stuff and I I had trouble with geography [TS]

00:27:19   and I i I just I thought really it all [TS]

00:27:22   ends up to this that they run back and [TS]

00:27:24   forth in a bunch of rooms and there's a [TS]

00:27:26   throne and I mean it's in the title [TS]

00:27:27   there's some buttons or whatever and it [TS]

00:27:30   just it seemed it did seem kind of [TS]

00:27:32   abrupt and that the fact that although [TS]

00:27:34   we've been leading up to the moment [TS]

00:27:36   where the guy takes over all the [TS]

00:27:37   soldiers and that was kind of cool [TS]

00:27:39   it was a whole long way to go for that [TS]

00:27:41   one little thing that pill that's that [TS]

00:27:44   happens so so yeah I like I mean I i can [TS]

00:27:47   say that it's bog-standard and then it's [TS]

00:27:48   got this interesting trappings you know [TS]

00:27:50   but the trappings were the best part I [TS]

00:27:51   like that and I did like the main [TS]

00:27:53   character I like that he's grizzled and [TS]

00:27:54   that he's world-weary but he just has to [TS]

00:27:56   do this and he's you know he's had [TS]

00:27:58   enough of this crap but it doesn't [TS]

00:27:59   matter he still got to do it because [TS]

00:28:01   nobody else will I liked all of that [TS]

00:28:03   about it and don't forget the madam with [TS]

00:28:06   the heart of gold [TS]

00:28:07   oh yeah i mean that and I know what was [TS]

00:28:09   surprising again not not not that [TS]

00:28:12   different from a character you might see [TS]

00:28:13   in george RR martin except that the the [TS]

00:28:15   setting but the fact that she's got this [TS]

00:28:17   that this guy is this this pious guy and [TS]

00:28:22   he's sort of sort of yeah i know it was [TS]

00:28:25   again I i thought the characters were [TS]

00:28:27   interesting it was just more than I was [TS]

00:28:28   realizing as i read it that it was not [TS]

00:28:30   anything I hadn't read or seen on TV [TS]

00:28:33   before except that the [TS]

00:28:35   setting was was you know a different [TS]

00:28:37   culture than we're used to but I didn't [TS]

00:28:40   just like it I I a spoiler alert i think [TS]

00:28:42   i like the best of the five [TS]

00:28:44   yeah if you actually could have been a [TS]

00:28:46   doctor who episode with small changes to [TS]

00:28:48   i did like the shifting povs in the [TS]

00:28:51   finale where they kind of let the action [TS]

00:28:54   move you from one character to another [TS]

00:28:56   where this character is out of the [TS]

00:29:00   action so now another character has to [TS]

00:29:01   step in and he takes over the narrative [TS]

00:29:04   is also having said that I'm getting [TS]

00:29:06   pretty sick of novels that insist on [TS]

00:29:07   multiple point of view characters right [TS]

00:29:09   i want to mention there's two other [TS]

00:29:11   novels of people like this kind of [TS]

00:29:13   approach these two of the ones that i [TS]

00:29:15   really like that are announced the [TS]

00:29:16   number of years old one is Shiva 3000 [TS]

00:29:19   which is a sort of fantasy sci-fi novel [TS]

00:29:22   that takes place in a universe in which [TS]

00:29:24   all of india's gods may or may not exist [TS]

00:29:26   it's a really great read from I think [TS]

00:29:29   1999 I've read it multiple times and the [TS]

00:29:32   other one is I cannot recall the title [TS]

00:29:34   of it maybe we can put in the show notes [TS]

00:29:35   and find myself somewhere it's a book in [TS]

00:29:38   which greek science is actually way the [TS]

00:29:41   world is run so the university center of [TS]

00:29:43   interlocking Spears the music of the [TS]

00:29:44   spheres if you throw something through [TS]

00:29:46   space it throws in a straight line and [TS]

00:29:48   then the velocity is gone it plummets to [TS]

00:29:50   the ground and it's a beautiful [TS]

00:29:52   intricate story told in that in which [TS]

00:29:54   different cultures combined and they're [TS]

00:29:57   different worldviews are actually all [TS]

00:29:58   the gentlemen in this universe and it's [TS]

00:30:00   a really beautiful II told story so [TS]

00:30:02   there are ways to tell that kind of [TS]

00:30:04   different point of view in which magic [TS]

00:30:06   or some kind of combination science and [TS]

00:30:07   magic are different and you can do and I [TS]

00:30:09   think really rewarding Lee so am i right [TS]

00:30:12   in there oh no so Scott and I read [TS]

00:30:16   blackout as we've read the other two [TS]

00:30:17   books in the series the newsflash series [TS]

00:30:19   by merit grant which is a pseudonym for [TS]

00:30:21   urban fantasy writer shot and McGwire [TS]

00:30:24   but Monty you read it too didn't you [TS]

00:30:26   yes I read blackout and I had not read [TS]

00:30:28   either of the other two and Glenn did [TS]

00:30:30   you read it too i was actually making my [TS]

00:30:33   way across the desolate plains of the [TS]

00:30:36   novel and in tweeted about it i think [TS]

00:30:38   and i was given permission by you and [TS]

00:30:40   Scott to stop [TS]

00:30:41   I still read about Iran I was shamed me [TS]

00:30:44   into reading it now i know that's how I [TS]

00:30:46   work [TS]

00:30:46   that's how I read about a third of it [TS]

00:30:49   and was despairing it was told I was off [TS]

00:30:52   the hook so I i stopped at Point with [TS]

00:30:54   grateful that Marie I didn't want to be [TS]

00:30:55   the one responsible for that [TS]

00:30:58   yes I couldn't live with it alright so [TS]

00:31:00   we read so famously we read two years [TS]

00:31:02   ago we read feed and our are short [TS]

00:31:05   review of feed was don't read feed [TS]

00:31:07   because it wasn't very good it was very [TS]

00:31:08   well written and this is a series set [TS]

00:31:10   its it's in the future after a zombie [TS]

00:31:12   apocalypse but not a complete apocalypse [TS]

00:31:14   it's sort of a zombie inconvenience more [TS]

00:31:16   than anything else [TS]

00:31:17   electricity is still functioning there [TS]

00:31:19   seems to be so there's slightly it's [TS]

00:31:20   just that there are lots of dead zones [TS]

00:31:22   and a lot of people die dammit now [TS]

00:31:23   nobody can have big pets because i think [TS]

00:31:25   the episode when we talk about feed was [TS]

00:31:27   called zombie Marmaduke because if you [TS]

00:31:29   get a big enough dog it can turn into a [TS]

00:31:31   zombie but small dogs don't turn into [TS]

00:31:33   zombies and there are bloggers and [TS]

00:31:36   bloggers tell the news like it is man [TS]

00:31:38   and they post things on the internet and [TS]

00:31:39   they fight the power mandar but you have [TS]

00:31:42   to be licensed to be a blogger yeah you [TS]

00:31:44   got a contentious make sense yeah that [TS]

00:31:46   doesn't that's not how blogging works [TS]

00:31:48   there's an unfiltered unfettered [TS]

00:31:50   internet that's available all the time [TS]

00:31:51   everywhere with no maintenance required [TS]

00:31:53   for cellular towers or anything to it's [TS]

00:31:54   pretty incredible that's yes there's [TS]

00:31:56   also ultra luxury hotels available [TS]

00:31:58   really there are removing their forget [TS]

00:32:01   the zombies [TS]

00:32:02   yeah well that's behalf of the books do [TS]

00:32:04   that basically you have to do you have [TS]

00:32:06   to be there so in the first book the [TS]

00:32:07   main character Georgia Mason dies toward [TS]

00:32:11   the end split sorry no monumental why [TS]

00:32:15   are you listening [TS]

00:32:16   well thats not not as much of a spoiler [TS]

00:32:18   as we thought at the time though haha [TS]

00:32:20   first line of blackout is her dying yeah [TS]

00:32:23   so so she dies and i thought that was [TS]

00:32:25   the best thing in the book because it [TS]

00:32:27   was at least a bold move by the the [TS]

00:32:29   writer to do that but we didn't like [TS]

00:32:30   Scott I didn't like the book and then we [TS]

00:32:31   didn't like the sequel deadline in which [TS]

00:32:35   is told by her brother and she and her [TS]

00:32:38   brother had that their adopted and they [TS]

00:32:39   have this creepy relationship which is [TS]

00:32:42   never really kind of I think I think [TS]

00:32:44   outwardly stated is is more than [TS]

00:32:47   brother-sister they are adopted after [TS]

00:32:49   all it's not entirely incest but it's [TS]

00:32:52   creepy is creepy so in so in in at the [TS]

00:32:56   end of deadlines we discover that [TS]

00:32:57   there's a [TS]

00:32:59   clone of Georgia who has come back to [TS]

00:33:01   life [TS]

00:33:02   what I and and all and i remember very [TS]

00:33:04   clearly Scott saying don't talk so much [TS]

00:33:07   about her dying in that book because [TS]

00:33:08   you're gonna be disappointed [TS]

00:33:10   uh so-so in blackout we have an [TS]

00:33:13   alternating set of narrators we got [TS]

00:33:15   Shawn and Georgia clone Georgia as as [TS]

00:33:19   she figures out where she is and why [TS]

00:33:21   she's a clone and he drives around [TS]

00:33:24   because there's conspiracies their stuff [TS]

00:33:28   to do something about mosquitoes but you [TS]

00:33:30   don't really seem to care that much and [TS]

00:33:32   doesn't make any sense it yeah really [TS]

00:33:35   doesn't say like they have all this [TS]

00:33:37   great incredible security at the place [TS]

00:33:39   where the mad scientist is doing the [TS]

00:33:41   research except Tommy's just get in [TS]

00:33:43   there get in because they only have them [TS]

00:33:45   in there they do good protocol and sing [TS]

00:33:47   like roaches just getting it's covered [TS]

00:33:49   with everyone because others [TS]

00:33:50   oh and don't forget don't forget he [TS]

00:33:52   can't be infected with the zombie virus [TS]

00:33:53   for sorry can be only gets a little sick [TS]

00:33:55   he's actually coming suddenly he Shaun [TS]

00:33:58   Mason is is is immune to zombie listen [TS]

00:34:02   you have to take antibiotics to make [TS]

00:34:03   some sick but it does not make a zombie [TS]

00:34:04   and that doesn't even really play into [TS]

00:34:07   the plot where know you think it would [TS]

00:34:09   such a thing no it's like a vampire [TS]

00:34:12   hunter can become a vampire because he [TS]

00:34:14   already is part of that you get Glen is [TS]

00:34:16   lending money you guys didn't read the [TS]

00:34:17   other two books right right now okay [TS]

00:34:19   you see you maybe not yeah probably not [TS]

00:34:21   yeah you made me off this will shock you [TS]

00:34:24   I thought this was by far the best of [TS]

00:34:26   the three yes i agree here i want to [TS]

00:34:29   take one side but no matter which is I [TS]

00:34:32   by far [TS]

00:34:33   Shane is only Prince John I think shawna [TS]

00:34:36   and shawna I liked one of the short [TS]

00:34:38   stories she wrote that was nominated for [TS]

00:34:40   Hugo the cell end she's yes I like that [TS]

00:34:43   one very much i read multiple times [TS]

00:34:44   she's extremely funny and kind and I [TS]

00:34:47   didn't even know it was her when i first [TS]

00:34:49   started following on Twitter recently [TS]

00:34:50   when the issue came about sort of [TS]

00:34:52   feminist issues she's really interesting [TS]

00:34:54   funny person I sort of feel terrible [TS]

00:34:56   because this the stuff is terribly [TS]

00:34:58   terribly written if it's a very popular [TS]

00:34:59   so there's no reason she will change [TS]

00:35:01   what she's doing and she's ridiculously [TS]

00:35:03   productive she's the Glen fleischmann of [TS]

00:35:06   science fiction/fantasy writing when you [TS]

00:35:08   throw quality of the [TS]

00:35:09   Gigi's Glenn you're talking like yes I [TS]

00:35:12   did that's called branding right there [TS]

00:35:14   that isn't that is insulting you [TS]

00:35:17   you did it yourself i'm in terms of [TS]

00:35:19   quantity quantity relentlessness and [TS]

00:35:22   she's the lex friedman of glory its [TS]

00:35:25   habitat that's pretty good with ya now [TS]

00:35:27   I'm sure she's a lovely lovely perfect [TS]

00:35:30   this is just a terrible it's terrible [TS]

00:35:32   nothing I feel like it almost is [TS]

00:35:34   fanfiction that fan fiction it's it's [TS]

00:35:36   something that desperately need an [TS]

00:35:37   editor and shouldn't have been printed [TS]

00:35:39   I almost wonder if this was something [TS]

00:35:41   she wrote earlier in her life and [TS]

00:35:43   brought it out of a cold out of a trunk [TS]

00:35:45   novel and and put it under a pseudonym [TS]

00:35:49   and then and and it sold well yeah I [TS]

00:35:52   don't know that's just pure speculation [TS]

00:35:53   on my part so so here's the thing I've [TS]

00:35:56   been [TS]

00:35:56   i wiII Scott my kind of were famously [TS]

00:35:59   among listeners to this show about how [TS]

00:36:02   we beat me to death and it's very rare [TS]

00:36:04   that we find something and we kick it to [TS]

00:36:07   death it does happen occasionally man of [TS]

00:36:09   steel the Avengers with Andy and and [TS]

00:36:11   some other things that we've done where [TS]

00:36:12   we've kicked him to death but uh I have [TS]

00:36:16   to say I think I maybe have figured out [TS]

00:36:18   why i don't like these books mean yes [TS]

00:36:21   the plots don't make sense [TS]

00:36:23   uh characters aren't good i had no idea [TS]

00:36:25   why they did what they did at the end of [TS]

00:36:27   them with the writing is not very good [TS]

00:36:29   at science is Ben there's a moment I i [TS]

00:36:32   mentioned a weird relationship by the [TS]

00:36:33   way I i think i even maybe I should [TS]

00:36:36   bring up my kindle notes about this [TS]

00:36:37   there's a moment in this book where I [TS]

00:36:43   think she seriously expect us to be [TS]

00:36:46   shocked when we discover that Shauna [TS]

00:36:49   Georgia have a sexual relationship that [TS]

00:36:51   they had their entire life where I [TS]

00:36:53   remember my armor Scott I talking when [TS]

00:36:56   we were in the midst of reading feed [TS]

00:36:59   about how creepy the twins were because [TS]

00:37:01   they were totally all buying each other [TS]

00:37:03   and all over each other twins or or or [TS]

00:37:05   brother and sister and I thought this [TS]

00:37:06   year is this really really a revelation [TS]

00:37:09   of any kind of shocking [TS]

00:37:11   yeah it's clear from reading the book i [TS]

00:37:13   mean i just read this book and I thought [TS]

00:37:15   that was what's going on [TS]

00:37:16   his crown I kept forgetting whether they [TS]

00:37:18   were brother and sister or husband and [TS]

00:37:20   white i had to go back and check out [TS]

00:37:22   their adopted this effort leads not so [TS]

00:37:25   they're not genetically related so it's [TS]

00:37:26   not technically incest like I said [TS]

00:37:28   that's our episode title that's the next [TS]

00:37:32   book and serious not technically incest [TS]

00:37:36   by programs either i misunderstand it [TS]

00:37:38   misunderstand this or or she has an [TS]

00:37:42   opinion of her readers that is vastly [TS]

00:37:45   different from my opinion as a reader [TS]

00:37:46   because i would like to well if you read [TS]

00:37:49   these books you're not that discerning I [TS]

00:37:52   wasn't sure force 3 and I you know I it [TS]

00:37:55   they are you know they're mindless reads [TS]

00:37:58   right and like zombies hey you know go [TS]

00:38:00   ahead read your it's your time but [TS]

00:38:02   they're not very good if you like [TS]

00:38:03   zombies I say don't read these books is [TS]

00:38:05   not if you like this could be like [TS]

00:38:07   bloggers and you like government [TS]

00:38:08   conspiracies man who can be unbearably [TS]

00:38:10   one over by the bloggers then read these [TS]

00:38:13   books is that they're zombies content is [TS]

00:38:15   really low [TS]

00:38:16   what is what is the CDC doing all this i [TS]

00:38:18   don't okay so the villain of the piece [TS]

00:38:20   is the Centers for Disease Control there [TS]

00:38:22   in the evil the most evil organization [TS]

00:38:24   that is he wanting to hoard all [TS]

00:38:27   knowledge about the zombie the [TS]

00:38:29   kellis-amberlee virus which causes [TS]

00:38:30   zombie-ism because reasons because evil [TS]

00:38:35   reasons hilaria reasons yes uh and so [TS]

00:38:38   the heroes are some other three letter [TS]

00:38:40   acronym government organization that's [TS]

00:38:42   fighting a sec so yeah so bizarre the [TS]

00:38:46   oversight Department of the division of [TS]

00:38:48   government ecological over stairs are [TS]

00:38:50   ridiculous climax in the white house [TS]

00:38:52   that could now never conceivably happen [TS]

00:38:55   in the White House where the president [TS]

00:38:56   is running around and my biggest problem [TS]

00:38:59   in there are a lot of problems with this [TS]

00:39:01   is my biggest one is so there's this [TS]

00:39:03   whole point where they clone [TS]

00:39:04   what's-her-face George yeah and it's a [TS]

00:39:07   very important plot point anything okay [TS]

00:39:09   well they've done this for a reason and [TS]

00:39:11   it should be a good reason right and it [TS]

00:39:13   is an incredibly stupid reason they [TS]

00:39:16   spend millions and millions and millions [TS]

00:39:18   of dollars to clone her because the vice [TS]

00:39:21   president the president is being held [TS]

00:39:22   captive by the CDC the bike rack is the [TS]

00:39:25   only way that he can get them out is by [TS]

00:39:28   cloning this dead blogger [TS]

00:39:29   so the dead bloggers can tell the public [TS]

00:39:31   and the CDC because the the public will [TS]

00:39:34   not trust anyone else and then the CDC [TS]

00:39:36   will be forced to release the president [TS]

00:39:38   you missed something that Scott you [TS]

00:39:39   missed something because they're the the [TS]

00:39:41   CDC's evil plan is to perfect the clone [TS]

00:39:44   so she's exactly Georgia and then once [TS]

00:39:46   they perfected the back it off a little [TS]

00:39:48   bit so that she's not perfect they're [TS]

00:39:51   going to use the perfect Georgia clone [TS]

00:39:52   to sell the concept of clones to [TS]

00:39:55   millionaires or something or something [TS]

00:39:57   good yeah it's this month but then but [TS]

00:40:00   then at the climax at the climax they're [TS]

00:40:02   like okay where we have to save the [TS]

00:40:05   president so let me make a phone call [TS]

00:40:06   and then I'd ok the president saved what [TS]

00:40:08   why did you bother clone Georgia so I [TS]

00:40:13   haven't said the thing the thing that I [TS]

00:40:14   think rubs me rose me wrong about these [TS]

00:40:16   books more than all of this because the [TS]

00:40:18   reason i said this was the best is I [TS]

00:40:19   feel like her I feel like her individual [TS]

00:40:23   like action set pieces were better in [TS]

00:40:30   this than the first 2i thought that this [TS]

00:40:32   was this was a much more capably written [TS]

00:40:34   book in that way but what what really [TS]

00:40:39   drives me crazy and it's been throughout [TS]

00:40:40   these books is there's a lot of it's [TS]

00:40:44   just bad style i think is the thing that [TS]

00:40:46   offends me the most is that with all we [TS]

00:40:47   said about the ridiculous plot it's not [TS]

00:40:50   pleasant to read I could forgive a lot [TS]

00:40:51   of it was enjoyable to actually read the [TS]

00:40:53   words but there's so much repetition so [TS]

00:40:56   much and insistence on details and the [TS]

00:40:59   donation can I get you a couple of a a [TS]

00:41:02   canonical right now yeah that would i [TS]

00:41:04   would really enjoy opening a coke every [TS]

00:41:06   time I'm gonna get you a coke and I [TS]

00:41:07   think that I think coke might be sweet [TS]

00:41:10   while you're doing that Glenn I'm going [TS]

00:41:12   to jam my thumb on a zombie virus [TS]

00:41:15   detector reader and what happens you see [TS]

00:41:18   when that happens is needles bite into [TS]

00:41:20   my thumb and then the blood comes out [TS]

00:41:22   and then I wait as the light goes from [TS]

00:41:24   red to green to red to green to red to [TS]

00:41:26   green to red to green oh green I'm say [TS]

00:41:29   so i gotta send it on my thumb here [TS]

00:41:31   before you get that can cook for you so [TS]

00:41:32   i have to do that first before as well [TS]

00:41:34   then haha so you jam your thumb in there [TS]

00:41:36   and the needles go see because this is [TS]

00:41:38   what happened or is that comes that that [TS]

00:41:40   this information is repeated every few [TS]

00:41:43   pages [TS]

00:41:43   is across all three books the same names [TS]

00:41:46   something with the state it's a nonsense [TS]

00:41:48   places you don't need zombie scanner and [TS]

00:41:50   all the plants so those details that are [TS]

00:41:51   unnecessary and and then things that [TS]

00:41:55   don't make sense and you know again [TS]

00:41:56   that's it is stylistically I think this [TS]

00:41:58   these books are a failure plus the plots [TS]

00:42:00   are nonsensical so I don't know she has [TS]

00:42:02   a following she's a huge fan base [TS]

00:42:04   Sean Maguire got nominated for like [TS]

00:42:06   seven Hugo's or something this year [TS]

00:42:07   she's in the podcast categories in the [TS]

00:42:09   short story categories in the novella [TS]

00:42:11   cavities in the novel category [TS]

00:42:13   she's all she's I think she's in some [TS]

00:42:14   other categories she's all over the [TS]

00:42:16   place and that's great because she's got [TS]

00:42:17   fans who love her [TS]

00:42:18   I hope they love her for some of her [TS]

00:42:21   other works that are presumably better [TS]

00:42:23   than me is because all three of these [TS]

00:42:25   books are awful and I was generous with [TS]

00:42:27   this one on goodreads I gave it two [TS]

00:42:29   stars instead of one [TS]

00:42:31   it's so funny because I people usually [TS]

00:42:33   accuse us you know we starting the [TS]

00:42:35   specifics about something people like [TS]

00:42:37   what you have an animus against this [TS]

00:42:38   author something it's like no I've got [TS]

00:42:40   nine of us have anything against I know [TS]

00:42:42   nothing about this it races all about [TS]

00:42:44   these are really terrible i mean i know [TS]

00:42:46   that this is a really terrible thing I [TS]

00:42:48   read it was so bad I could not I did not [TS]

00:42:50   want to finish it went well didn't have [TS]

00:42:51   to i did not i have to really specific [TS]

00:42:55   things i did not like about this book [TS]

00:42:57   lay upon us one is everybody is so [TS]

00:43:00   quickly at every opportunity [TS]

00:43:03   it's like a joss whedon fanfic kind of [TS]

00:43:05   thing where it was especially because [TS]

00:43:07   she keeps talking about somebody named [TS]

00:43:08   buffy who I never saw because she's not [TS]

00:43:10   in this book yes she dies in the first [TS]

00:43:12   book she's just she's really in hacker [TS]

00:43:14   who as Scott pointed out since God is an [TS]

00:43:17   IT professional encrypted the most [TS]

00:43:21   valuable database on earth with like a [TS]

00:43:23   four-letter password [TS]

00:43:25   yeah like her name is really good here a [TS]

00:43:28   couple of things people actually say in [TS]

00:43:29   this book at incredibly tense moments [TS]

00:43:32   could we go with a slightly less out [TS]

00:43:35   worthy doomsday weapon next time okay [TS]

00:43:40   that's it no more mr. nice heavily-armed [TS]

00:43:43   really pissed off journalist Beck's [TS]

00:43:48   frowned clearly half-asleep bats [TS]

00:43:50   yeah you know flap flap squeak squeak [TS]

00:43:53   works for Dracula [TS]

00:43:56   we come in peace i called more quietly i [TS]

00:43:59   added for Beck's benefit i have always [TS]

00:44:01   wanted to say that I think that's when [TS]

00:44:04   they're taking the vice-president [TS]

00:44:05   hostage [TS]

00:44:06   you don't say that then you can't be [TS]

00:44:08   that quickie of all the time anyway [TS]

00:44:11   she's either theory she's an incredibly [TS]

00:44:13   good programmer and shut down the road [TS]

00:44:15   software that this is one of the first [TS]

00:44:17   round [TS]

00:44:18   ok so here's my explanation for these [TS]

00:44:19   books is is that uh huh and I do have [TS]

00:44:22   one its it reads to me like somebody [TS]

00:44:28   who's pictured a a movie in their head [TS]

00:44:31   and is literally just writing down the [TS]

00:44:34   dialogue and writing down the camera [TS]

00:44:36   movements and writing down the yeah you [TS]

00:44:40   know it what they're seeing on the [TS]

00:44:41   screen and so every time somebody stick [TS]

00:44:45   their finger in the reader she has to [TS]

00:44:47   explain what the finger thing is and and [TS]

00:44:50   but that's how it feels to be the [TS]

00:44:52   dialogue especially is painful because [TS]

00:44:53   there's so much of it and it's so rep [TS]

00:44:56   repetitious and pointless and and [TS]

00:45:00   there's no sense uh in the entire book [TS]

00:45:03   of compression she doesn't understand [TS]

00:45:06   that if you have five characters and [TS]

00:45:07   they need to go somewhere that's four [TS]

00:45:10   rooms away that you don't need to [TS]

00:45:12   describe them opening each door stepping [TS]

00:45:15   through each room what's in each room [TS]

00:45:16   opening the next door until they get to [TS]

00:45:18   the next room in these books every [TS]

00:45:20   single thing that could happen from one [TS]

00:45:22   end to the other and every word that [TS]

00:45:25   every character might say or think is [TS]

00:45:27   detailed and it's that's not good [TS]

00:45:31   writing doesn't need to have that good [TS]

00:45:32   writing you just end up in the next room [TS]

00:45:34   and as you the writer does shorthand to [TS]

00:45:37   say well and when they got to that room [TS]

00:45:39   this is what happened that's important [TS]

00:45:40   and this book has no sense of importance [TS]

00:45:42   and not importance of scenes they're all [TS]

00:45:45   just they're all just frames at 24 [TS]

00:45:48   frames per second in the movie in the [TS]

00:45:50   writers head as far as i can tell a [TS]

00:45:52   brilliant thing that douglas adams wrote [TS]

00:45:53   in i think in the third or fourth [TS]

00:45:55   hitchhiker's guide book about where said [TS]

00:45:57   you know readers you might have a [TS]

00:45:58   question about the things I leave out [TS]

00:46:00   and he goes things like for instance if [TS]

00:46:01   i were to tell you about our thursday [TS]

00:46:02   and our sister gets up he scratches one [TS]

00:46:05   side then he gets up he does this hold [TS]

00:46:06   eat something and it's all a question of [TS]

00:46:08   whether Arthur [TS]

00:46:08   actually has sex with with venture [TS]

00:46:10   church but it's very funny thing of like [TS]

00:46:12   what it would be like for a writer to [TS]

00:46:14   write all the details excruciating Lee [TS]

00:46:16   what actually happened i think that's [TS]

00:46:17   what you described yeah but this is a [TS]

00:46:19   whole book of that trilogy for you put [TS]

00:46:22   your finger on trilogy really more than [TS]

00:46:24   a book another thing i did not like Oh [TS]

00:46:26   Monty yes or I to other specific things [TS]

00:46:29   ok but what is at the beginning I was [TS]

00:46:31   gonna shout or even the horse but I got [TS]

00:46:34   here zombie have sweet kill hooks to [TS]

00:46:36   beat up I've just got this 1i I made you [TS]

00:46:38   read it you should talk as long as you [TS]

00:46:40   need to get out i'm listening at the [TS]

00:46:42   beginning of each chapter there's other [TS]

00:46:47   descriptions of what happened and that's [TS]

00:46:49   weird because a lot of time it's by the [TS]

00:46:52   same person who's the first person [TS]

00:46:54   narrator of these things yes but now [TS]

00:46:56   they're going to give us excerpt from [TS]

00:46:58   their lawyer and haha where unpublished [TS]

00:47:01   blog published on log and they have [TS]

00:47:04   dates drafts that's not a thing these [TS]

00:47:06   people are taking time to write this [TS]

00:47:08   stuff down that was what I wondered is [TS]

00:47:10   when did they have time to write the [TS]

00:47:12   unplugged published blog entries during [TS]

00:47:15   this adventure who is time to write [TS]

00:47:17   unpublished blog entries if it's a blog [TS]

00:47:20   if you don't publish it [TS]

00:47:21   finally there's just one sentence that [TS]

00:47:23   really bothered me [TS]

00:47:25   it's describing the Fox would lose the [TS]

00:47:28   ludicrously colorful psychotic character [TS]

00:47:33   they run into it was very weak me the [TS]

00:47:35   senses [TS]

00:47:36   oh yes as she claimed her hands over her [TS]

00:47:38   ears i saw that she was holding a nasty [TS]

00:47:41   look he's a nasty-looking snipers pistol [TS]

00:47:43   first i'm not sure the snipers pistol is [TS]

00:47:46   i think most laborers use rifles but [TS]

00:47:48   forget that [TS]

00:47:49   yeah she's for clamping her hands over [TS]

00:47:51   her ears while holding a sniper's pistol [TS]

00:47:55   isn't she just gonna knock yourself out [TS]

00:47:57   or something we can only hope she's [TS]

00:47:59   crazy money she's crazy just crazy stuff [TS]

00:48:01   like that cause she's crazy but she's [TS]

00:48:03   supposed to be holding the pistol on [TS]

00:48:05   them and said she's alright yeah alright [TS]

00:48:08   she got three him it's not early [TS]

00:48:10   it's what we're saying is it's not good [TS]

00:48:12   read it good but what it if you're going [TS]

00:48:15   to read it [TS]

00:48:16   listen to it on audible thank you two [TS]

00:48:18   narrators read any two pages of it [TS]

00:48:22   you got the whole thing yes lots of [TS]

00:48:24   redundancy is lots of we don't let's be [TS]

00:48:25   antsy and then lots redundancy [TS]

00:48:28   alright let's move on i've said i've [TS]

00:48:31   saved for fifth Kim Stanley Robinson is [TS]

00:48:34   2312 the winner of the nebula award for [TS]

00:48:38   best science fiction novel of the year [TS]

00:48:40   this is 2312 is set in the sometime in [TS]

00:48:46   the early 23 hundreds the German sherlyn [TS]

00:48:50   um so I've been waiting like five weeks [TS]

00:48:54   to make that joke haha and you abused [TS]

00:48:57   your self-pity ideas and it's sadly [TS]

00:48:59   accurate because it's not exactly set [TS]

00:49:02   it's a it's Grand Tour kind of novel [TS]

00:49:06   it's it's got scenes on Mars and Mercury [TS]

00:49:09   and earth and in the outer planets and [TS]

00:49:12   the moons of jupiter and saturn and [TS]

00:49:14   asteroids and it tells it this far [TS]

00:49:19   future story it tells of there's a plot [TS]

00:49:22   and there's also lots of detail of sort [TS]

00:49:25   of the future of of human society and [TS]

00:49:28   culture and I think as somebody who read [TS]

00:49:31   the red blue green Mars trilogy which I [TS]

00:49:34   enjoyed quite a lot actually [TS]

00:49:36   by Kim Stanley Robinson it seems to [TS]

00:49:39   maybe be set in the same universe he [TS]

00:49:41   sort of soft petals the Mars stuff and [TS]

00:49:45   that led me to believe that it probably [TS]

00:49:46   is the same or at least similar universe [TS]

00:49:48   to that I don't know [TS]

00:49:50   and this is yes this is one lots lots o [TS]

00:49:54   awards so when I talked about this book [TS]

00:49:57   with Glenn Glenn said that he had [TS]

00:49:58   started reading it was so furious that [TS]

00:50:00   he put it down and we had to coax him [TS]

00:50:02   into reading the rest of it which I [TS]

00:50:04   think he did and dan dan you read [TS]

00:50:06   stretch most of this right i I'm about a [TS]

00:50:10   hundred and fifty pages from the end a [TS]

00:50:12   lot wait a long time to say something [TS]

00:50:14   about this classy something with us know [TS]

00:50:15   when I started so i'm a long time Kim [TS]

00:50:18   Stanley Robinson fan I even would refer [TS]

00:50:20   to as ksr as his fans too i read the [TS]

00:50:23   red-green-blue Mars ones and thought [TS]

00:50:24   some of the best science fiction since [TS]

00:50:26   dune since the first do not the sequel's [TS]

00:50:28   tremendous scope tremendous scientific [TS]

00:50:32   insight great characters ability to [TS]

00:50:35   create you [TS]

00:50:35   verse to deal with characters over the [TS]

00:50:37   span of a century [TS]

00:50:38   I read other novels and short stories [TS]

00:50:41   read written and read nonfiction is [TS]

00:50:44   written looking forward to this [TS]

00:50:45   i bought this from amazon in hardcover [TS]

00:50:47   the moment came out pre-ordered it [TS]

00:50:49   picked it up and started reading it and [TS]

00:50:51   I thought I'd had a brain aneurysm and [TS]

00:50:53   in fact I wrote an article for The [TS]

00:50:55   Economist's package blog about how I [TS]

00:50:57   scored double check whether i'd actually [TS]

00:50:59   had a stroke or seizure because i [TS]

00:51:01   started reading it I thought this is [TS]

00:51:03   terrible the writing is flat the [TS]

00:51:05   characters are uninspired the science is [TS]

00:51:07   bad this camp that by the there's [TS]

00:51:10   instantaneous communication without an [TS]

00:51:12   answer was always like a distant and I i [TS]

00:51:14   actually thought is something wrong with [TS]

00:51:16   me because it can't be wrong with Kim [TS]

00:51:18   Stanley Robinson is genius [TS]

00:51:20   he's been all this great stuff and the [TS]

00:51:21   end of course it's it's not me it's him [TS]

00:51:23   and I think I overreacted a little bit [TS]

00:51:26   because when i came back to watch just [TS]

00:51:28   timed that does not sound like you [TS]

00:51:30   doesn't sound I do anything under [TS]

00:51:33   reacted but I came back to it and my [TS]

00:51:35   opinion is is is it's still I don't like [TS]

00:51:38   it and we can talk about it was like [TS]

00:51:40   forth but it's not as horrible seem [TS]

00:51:42   excited such high expectations from [TS]

00:51:44   anything you would write because it's [TS]

00:51:45   never disappointed me in the past and i [TS]

00:51:47   thought this was another sprawling [TS]

00:51:48   wonderful installment in his work and it [TS]

00:51:50   is not but I didn't finish the whole [TS]

00:51:52   thing [TS]

00:51:52   this is great because i'm on the [TS]

00:51:53   entirely opposite spectrum of Glen in [TS]

00:51:56   terms of going into this which is then I [TS]

00:51:58   red red mars maybe I don't know 10 15 [TS]

00:52:02   years ago and found it dull didn't read [TS]

00:52:06   any other books Nets here using did not [TS]

00:52:08   do not remember that we're all of them [TS]

00:52:10   not liking it and I went into this and i [TS]

00:52:14   also found stop there are a couple [TS]

00:52:17   things I every once in a while I mean [TS]

00:52:20   okay [TS]

00:52:21   it takes about a hundred and fifty pages [TS]

00:52:22   before you hit a plot and that to me is [TS]

00:52:24   the problem number one right like [TS]

00:52:26   there's there's there's there are people [TS]

00:52:28   like you sort of start out with this [TS]

00:52:30   character who's died and the main [TS]

00:52:32   character who is her brand on [TS]

00:52:35   yes and so on certain supposed to take [TS]

00:52:37   over her work [TS]

00:52:38   it's not clear with that work is there [TS]

00:52:40   are lots of other people involved it's [TS]

00:52:41   not really clear what they're doing [TS]

00:52:42   either and it takes about a hundred [TS]

00:52:44   fifty pages before somebody tries to [TS]

00:52:46   blow up a city on Mercury her city [TS]

00:52:47   before [TS]

00:52:49   I was like ok now we finally cut into [TS]

00:52:51   the point of this story at which point [TS]

00:52:54   you with and spend 1 240 bitches like [TS]

00:52:57   dawdling around and dr. King's point as [TS]

00:53:00   a stronger i want to read i will read [TS]

00:53:03   the thing i'm reading this and and I i [TS]

00:53:05   agree that it's like with is going said [TS]

00:53:08   it's flat except every once in awhile [TS]

00:53:10   little stuff pokes through and I'm [TS]

00:53:12   amazed that it's like i start to get [TS]

00:53:14   like you know maybe like wipe away the [TS]

00:53:16   dirt you're like oh I'm trying to see [TS]

00:53:18   what he was going for it so i want to [TS]

00:53:19   read the one line that made me laugh out [TS]

00:53:21   loud a lot and it's in one of the lists [TS]

00:53:25   chapters their these breaks breakouts [TS]

00:53:27   where they have like lists or extracts [TS]

00:53:29   from other pieces of work or whatever [TS]

00:53:33   yeah there's a list where they have a [TS]

00:53:34   list of all the different types of [TS]

00:53:36   terrariums these artificial structures [TS]

00:53:39   they've built and here's all the [TS]

00:53:42   different types of trends they had and [TS]

00:53:44   this was my favorite was the st. George [TS]

00:53:46   a social terrarium in which the men [TS]

00:53:48   think they are living in a mormon [TS]

00:53:49   polygamy was going to consider it a [TS]

00:53:50   lesbian world with a small percentage of [TS]

00:53:52   male lesbian that made me laugh that [TS]

00:53:55   made me laugh and I was like wait am I [TS]

00:53:58   reading this book rock because maybe [TS]

00:54:00   this book is supposed to be funny and I [TS]

00:54:02   have come across have come across a [TS]

00:54:05   couple of things subsequently that that [TS]

00:54:06   were actually amusing or like you know [TS]

00:54:09   made me chuckle a little bit we did john [TS]

00:54:11   scalzi write this book is this not an [TS]

00:54:13   entire medical resilient material may be [TS]

00:54:16   but I can't quite i mean i don't really [TS]

00:54:20   understand maybe I'm not very good at [TS]

00:54:24   transcription happen after overtime so [TS]

00:54:27   you also have the Straits a little bit [TS]

00:54:29   perplexing i was on the boing boing [TS]

00:54:32   podcast which I I thanks to glen [TS]

00:54:35   presumably the only reason they asked me [TS]

00:54:38   is glad recommended me with a sci-fi [TS]

00:54:40   writer run as a mom who is so he has [TS]

00:54:44   written some really interesting stuff [TS]

00:54:45   that maybe we'll talk about in a future [TS]

00:54:46   podcast he and he loved 2312 and i have [TS]

00:54:50   to admit i said i don't i don't okay [TS]

00:54:52   it's good for you I I you know you are a [TS]

00:54:56   smart guy in a science fiction writer [TS]

00:54:57   but it just I i have a hard time [TS]

00:55:00   understanding the [TS]

00:55:01   love for this Scott you know what you [TS]

00:55:04   what is your take on on 2312 as you [TS]

00:55:07   remember it I know you've got the [TS]

00:55:08   probably been months since Iran's book [TS]

00:55:10   and it has been a while but i will say [TS]

00:55:12   that I this is the book that i have [TS]

00:55:14   voted 4-2 win the ok conflict here we go [TS]

00:55:18   yeah it's true but I mean I can [TS]

00:55:20   understand how people can hate it as i [TS]

00:55:21   was reading it and like I really like [TS]

00:55:22   this but I understand why people don't [TS]

00:55:24   like it at all [TS]

00:55:25   there's an unlikable character for large [TS]

00:55:27   portions of the book you have no idea [TS]

00:55:29   what's going on [TS]

00:55:30   it is rambling there are weird chapters [TS]

00:55:34   with just lists and fragments of texts [TS]

00:55:36   these are not things that make a book of [TS]

00:55:39   all that likable but for me this [TS]

00:55:42   combination really worked well because [TS]

00:55:44   of there's this kind of the stroke right [TS]

00:55:46   that humanity when you reach a certain [TS]

00:55:48   level of technological advancement [TS]

00:55:50   people just get bored and there's [TS]

00:55:52   nothing to do and that's kind of what i [TS]

00:55:55   thought was the kind of the the Swan the [TS]

00:55:58   main character who is kind of all she's [TS]

00:56:00   haha horrible person she's not a nice [TS]

00:56:02   person but she's interesting is because [TS]

00:56:04   i was just nice she's also dumb and does [TS]

00:56:06   lots of dumb things she does some very [TS]

00:56:09   dumb thing so she's bored and so she [TS]

00:56:10   says hey I know what I'll do I'll inject [TS]

00:56:12   this alien bacteria into my system and [TS]

00:56:15   see what happens right and so the answer [TS]

00:56:17   is a bad things happen right so she that [TS]

00:56:20   although it also saves her life [TS]

00:56:21   potentially to do you want accident yeah [TS]

00:56:23   so we don't know what's happening right [TS]

00:56:24   and then there's this other guy who [TS]

00:56:26   likes her for some reason and but it's a [TS]

00:56:29   frogman or whatever I can be brought [TS]

00:56:31   about a war on with a w was a war on [TS]

00:56:33   barham mrnas named thousand times i can [TS]

00:56:36   remember [TS]

00:56:36   yeah he falls in love with her but she [TS]

00:56:38   is really incapable of love so edgy and [TS]

00:56:41   uses him and he like walks for like six [TS]

00:56:44   months under the surface of mercury to [TS]

00:56:46   save her life and she's kind of like [TS]

00:56:47   whatever you can walk a little faster [TS]

00:56:50   that seems for me was reflected out the [TS]

00:56:52   entire novel heels [TS]

00:56:54   yeah speak speaking of people of Robert [TS]

00:56:56   compression yeah [TS]

00:56:58   oh my true but I thought that was the [TS]

00:56:59   point of it right it was and and tell me [TS]

00:57:02   that you don't need it but that was the [TS]

00:57:05   point he was making he was trying to [TS]

00:57:06   make you feel like the web how those [TS]

00:57:08   characters [TS]

00:57:09   accomplished and I i can agree that with [TS]

00:57:12   you that it might not work well I will [TS]

00:57:15   argue at work because it was in fact [TS]

00:57:16   boring but I thought that was the whole [TS]

00:57:18   way and as and I also i really like the [TS]

00:57:23   facts are there there's this big city on [TS]

00:57:26   Mercury that's on the track the opposite [TS]

00:57:28   has to get out of the sun's way and I [TS]

00:57:30   thought I would bring it this is stupid [TS]

00:57:32   because who would ever live on this kind [TS]

00:57:34   of a precarious situation and I know [TS]

00:57:37   something's gonna happen to the track [TS]

00:57:38   and then I thought well people do live [TS]

00:57:41   at the base of volcanoes people with [TS]

00:57:43   ever so it's kind of makes sense that [TS]

00:57:46   when you get to this kind of [TS]

00:57:47   technological arrogance you're not sure [TS]

00:57:49   why not live in a moving city on Mercury [TS]

00:57:51   what could have I would be way more [TS]

00:57:53   impressed had I not seen that exact same [TS]

00:57:55   device in a 2-3 zone Star Wars novel 20 [TS]

00:57:57   years ago mom [TS]

00:57:59   well I probably read that novel but i [TS]

00:58:01   don't remember the other thing that got [TS]

00:58:02   me though was you know obviously even [TS]

00:58:05   forget all that i mentioned i was [TS]

00:58:06   describing life I got brain damage was [TS]

00:58:08   because the the science didn't work and [TS]

00:58:11   he's a serious researcher of science and [TS]

00:58:13   reason to Mars books one of the things [TS]

00:58:15   that's nice about them is the ecological [TS]

00:58:18   geological like there's so much in there [TS]

00:58:20   that is accurate self-consistent and you [TS]

00:58:23   learn a lot about Mars as it is now in [TS]

00:58:25   fact ring them it's got that hard [TS]

00:58:27   science really tries to not do things [TS]

00:58:29   that are impossible then you get this [TS]

00:58:31   thing and he even States a number of [TS]

00:58:34   times i've talked about redundancy good [TS]

00:58:35   gravy but he states seemingly number of [TS]

00:58:37   times that you can have quantum [TS]

00:58:39   computers but they can't untangle the [TS]

00:58:41   quantum entanglement far enough to lose [TS]

00:58:44   coherence you can't get very far apart [TS]

00:58:45   the elements so you can make an ansible [TS]

00:58:47   which is a great device word coined by [TS]

00:58:49   Ursula K Le Guin in I think left hand of [TS]

00:58:52   darkness one of the early books for a [TS]

00:58:55   device that basically it's the it's the [TS]

00:58:57   MacGuffin on the government's the forget [TS]

00:58:59   the deus ex machina you need in science [TS]

00:59:01   fiction as you have communicators that [TS]

00:59:03   are very far apart and they can talk [TS]

00:59:04   together instantly because stuff and [TS]

00:59:07   there should not be any ansibles in this [TS]

00:59:09   universe and yet people talk to each [TS]

00:59:11   other seemingly instantaneously without [TS]

00:59:13   any explanation and they also travel [TS]

00:59:16   across the breadth and length of the [TS]

00:59:18   solar system including out of the plane [TS]

00:59:19   of the elliptic in seemingly [TS]

00:59:21   ridiculously small amounts [TS]

00:59:22   time without any explanation it doesn't [TS]

00:59:25   need an explanation that's good let's [TS]

00:59:27   party that's well everything is better [TS]

00:59:29   exactly but he he has just enough [TS]

00:59:31   science in it the ebay is just enough [TS]

00:59:33   science in it that you expect him to [TS]

00:59:34   offer here i'm gonna wave my hands [TS]

00:59:36   explain why this works and i'll accept [TS]

00:59:38   that because that's part of the thing [TS]

00:59:39   but then he does stuff that is [TS]

00:59:40   contradictory to the ability for his [TS]

00:59:42   university self-consistent and it irks [TS]

00:59:45   me [TS]

00:59:46   well i did not get the feeling better [TS]

00:59:47   the the trips between and they make a [TS]

00:59:49   lot of trips to different planets but i [TS]

00:59:50   did not get the feeling with those were [TS]

00:59:52   quick trips [TS]

00:59:52   no I don't think he ever kind of [TS]

00:59:54   chronologically dates the chapter so you [TS]

00:59:56   don't really know how long it a no but [TS]

00:59:58   it'd be like 20 or 30 years [TS]

00:59:58   it'd be like 20 or 30 years [TS]

01:00:00   and instead of the novel i think it's [TS]

01:00:01   supposed to take place within a couple [TS]

01:00:03   years but it was they don't know because [TS]

01:00:05   they're so they sell there are very [TS]

01:00:07   long-lived right so they could take 20 [TS]

01:00:09   years they could just be there hanging [TS]

01:00:11   out on a going from asteroid to [TS]

01:00:13   asteroids the guy in venus is only there [TS]

01:00:15   for short you can track the guy in venus [TS]

01:00:16   is there for a certain period of time [TS]

01:00:18   and what happened to the guy in Venus [TS]

01:00:20   was like apparently accidentally placed [TS]

01:00:22   there and winds up being completely [TS]

01:00:23   critical to the entire current order of [TS]

01:00:26   the solar system not being disrupted [TS]

01:00:28   because that's how this novel works so [TS]

01:00:29   often when does like the science the [TS]

01:00:30   science didn't bother me so much things [TS]

01:00:34   bother me about this novel sissies the [TS]

01:00:37   the so the the Grand Tour aspect of my [TS]

01:00:41   dan says that the plot doesn't really [TS]

01:00:43   start for a while and I said you know it [TS]

01:00:47   is that really the point I i don't think [TS]

01:00:49   it is either the plot is thin [TS]

01:00:50   the plot is this terrorist kind of fish [TS]

01:00:52   plot about they blow up the going to use [TS]

01:00:55   like the rocks because it through these [TS]

01:00:57   AIS that are uncontrolled that are being [TS]

01:00:59   able to figure out these precise details [TS]

01:01:01   with rock seem like they're not [TS]

01:01:02   connected but then they come together at [TS]

01:01:04   the very last minute and they blow [TS]

01:01:06   things up & it and it's not necessary [TS]

01:01:09   that the story is it's an excuse to show [TS]

01:01:13   these characters on this tour of what [TS]

01:01:15   humanity is going to be like in 2312 and [TS]

01:01:17   if you really if that works for you as a [TS]

01:01:21   a wonderful tour of the solar system and [TS]

01:01:24   a vision of what the future of humanity [TS]

01:01:27   where humanity is taking a bunch of [TS]

01:01:29   different forms [TS]

01:01:30   it's very different from a distant which [TS]

01:01:32   which I i think is to its credit because [TS]

01:01:35   if you look at something like Star Trek [TS]

01:01:36   that supposedly set in the far future [TS]

01:01:38   but it's just people from today [TS]

01:01:40   essentially in the culture hasn't [TS]

01:01:41   changed the fact is that in in 70 years [TS]

01:01:44   of life 60 years of life people see huge [TS]

01:01:49   cultural change in the world around them [TS]

01:01:51   if you go ahead 300 years the cultural [TS]

01:01:55   change is going to be mind-blowing in [TS]

01:01:57   terms of things that we think of this [TS]

01:01:58   awful today like I suppose injecting [TS]

01:02:01   yourself with alien microbes from [TS]

01:02:03   Enceladus her we're right in being very [TS]

01:02:06   lives of [TS]

01:02:08   of very sexualized I don't mind the [TS]

01:02:10   sexual identity stuff that's another [TS]

01:02:12   generation a bunch of different genders [TS]

01:02:13   in a bunch of different roles very [TS]

01:02:15   complicated to keep tracking is actually [TS]

01:02:17   much better so I like that it's like [TS]

01:02:19   this is what the future is like it's [TS]

01:02:21   very alien because 300 years from now [TS]

01:02:23   you if humanity is still alive at eight [TS]

01:02:25   whether it's on a outer space [TS]

01:02:27   you know at all the asteroids or not [TS]

01:02:29   it's going to be very different and [TS]

01:02:31   engine would be shocking to us just as [TS]

01:02:33   you frankly our culture of 40 years from [TS]

01:02:37   now will be shocking to us as we're [TS]

01:02:38   grumpy old men so that's all that's all [TS]

01:02:41   fine and that's that's very [TS]

01:02:43   science-fictional my problems are first [TS]

01:02:47   off as a grand tour novel I've seen [TS]

01:02:49   better but it's not groundbreaking it [TS]

01:02:52   may be an interesting vision but like [TS]

01:02:54   charles stross is Saturn's children [TS]

01:02:56   which was nominated a couple years ago [TS]

01:02:57   which the main character is actually a [TS]

01:02:59   sexpot but I thought it was better that [TS]

01:03:03   it was a better grand tour of the solar [TS]

01:03:05   system in the future it's very al any [TS]

01:03:06   any grand tour that includes the sex [TS]

01:03:08   it's good it's a very it's very spaced [TS]

01:03:11   off broken loose X but it's like you [TS]

01:03:13   know we're gonna go show you all these [TS]

01:03:14   planets and how the different ways [TS]

01:03:15   people live now so I didn't think that [TS]

01:03:17   was special and and then the other thing [TS]

01:03:21   that really bothered me about this book [TS]

01:03:22   is this [TS]

01:03:23   yes Juan is it is a an awful character [TS]

01:03:26   and you don't have to have likable [TS]

01:03:27   characters but it's harder you gotta [TS]

01:03:29   work harder if your main character is [TS]

01:03:32   awful and does stupid things and at [TS]

01:03:35   several points jeopardizes like [TS]

01:03:36   everybody in the book for no good reason [TS]

01:03:38   because she's bored or doesn't care or [TS]

01:03:41   doesn't think through her actions [TS]

01:03:44   she's like she's like a walking talking [TS]

01:03:46   plot complication like the plot would be [TS]

01:03:48   too simple Swan didn't come by and do [TS]

01:03:50   something stupid but she's the other [TS]

01:03:54   problem I have with this is that is that [TS]

01:03:55   in Glen and I were talking about it just [TS]

01:03:57   a moment ago [TS]

01:03:59   it's interesting that they talk about [TS]

01:04:00   the future of people having different [TS]

01:04:03   genders and multiple genders at once and [TS]

01:04:06   all the different forms of sexual [TS]

01:04:07   coupling and all of that and I thought [TS]

01:04:09   that was interesting but at the core of [TS]

01:04:12   this book is this relationship between [TS]

01:04:14   Swan this awful person and warm the [TS]

01:04:16   frogman from the outer planets [TS]

01:04:19   and was very nice and they and who is a [TS]

01:04:21   very nice fellow and she's awful and [TS]

01:04:24   he's nice but he loves her i would say [TS]

01:04:26   kind of inexplicably but sometimes that [TS]

01:04:28   happens Phoenix the heart doesn't know [TS]

01:04:29   from logic ok I'll go with that and it [TS]

01:04:33   in the end I guess the novel sort of [TS]

01:04:35   portrays that they they get married and [TS]

01:04:38   they or they are in a relationship and [TS]

01:04:40   there there's some there's some [TS]

01:04:42   attachment at the very end I guess but [TS]

01:04:44   um that was that actually really bug me [TS]

01:04:47   because in the history in all of human [TS]

01:04:48   history there is emotion and love and [TS]

01:04:52   Perry pair bonding and in this book I [TS]

01:04:56   felt like Kim Stanley Robinson excelled [TS]

01:04:58   at imagining all sorts of different ways [TS]

01:05:00   that human humans could change their [TS]

01:05:02   plumbing and their gender identity and [TS]

01:05:06   their sexual orientation but he couldn't [TS]

01:05:08   imagine a future with people who love [TS]

01:05:12   each other and and and when I realized [TS]

01:05:16   that this relationship that supposed to [TS]

01:05:18   be at what the novel hinges on is [TS]

01:05:20   completely barren of any feeling at all [TS]

01:05:22   and it's all about the plumbing and the [TS]

01:05:24   social constructs of gender and [TS]

01:05:26   orientation [TS]

01:05:27   that's when I got mad at this novel and [TS]

01:05:29   said this is a guy who loves playing [TS]

01:05:31   with planets but doesn't know anything [TS]

01:05:33   about people and at that point I decided [TS]

01:05:35   that I hated it so that's my story I [TS]

01:05:37   think that's I think this is a very [TS]

01:05:38   interesting cerebral imagination like [TS]

01:05:42   where it in his little imagination land [TS]

01:05:44   of the future but as as a novel about [TS]

01:05:46   human beings and what it means to be [TS]

01:05:48   human in 2312 look to a writer who isn't [TS]

01:05:51   Kim Stanley Robinson because he failed [TS]

01:05:54   it's weird though because the Mars [TS]

01:05:55   novels he doesn't have that problem at [TS]

01:05:56   all [TS]

01:05:57   it's it's all about people and there's [TS]

01:05:58   something about people that they're not [TS]

01:06:00   all nice but they're interested and [TS]

01:06:01   their relationships are much more [TS]

01:06:03   meaningful but that's neither [TS]

01:06:04   complicated scene / f two fat it to me [TS]

01:06:06   it just felt like these people were [TS]

01:06:07   awful people who felt no feelings and [TS]

01:06:09   even when there was a feeling like war [TS]

01:06:11   on liking Swan it made no sense and it [TS]

01:06:14   was almost like he was like adopting a [TS]

01:06:16   cat and I just I didn't [TS]

01:06:18   I just didn't I felt no love in these [TS]

01:06:22   characters the Frank was a very [TS]

01:06:23   complicated character he has he has he [TS]

01:06:25   has various moods and darkness is again [TS]

01:06:28   transforms and through the novel's Frank [TS]

01:06:30   is like one of the strongest characters [TS]

01:06:31   and is not a nice guy for most of it but [TS]

01:06:34   you respect time well its dynamics ax is [TS]

01:06:36   a member sacks is a memorable older in [TS]

01:06:38   there and he'll expose completely flawed [TS]

01:06:41   human being but it's very interesting [TS]

01:06:43   and and and swan is an interesting she's [TS]

01:06:45   very flawed she's not very interesting [TS]

01:06:47   anyway I feel like we came into swans [TS]

01:06:51   life at a point where she had done all [TS]

01:06:54   of her work she made her little [TS]

01:06:56   terrarium said she was not romantic [TS]

01:06:58   dreams and she was done and she's just [TS]

01:07:00   kind of being an awful person [TS]

01:07:02   untethered to the world kind of looking [TS]

01:07:05   for for meaning and failing to find it [TS]

01:07:08   and she fails to find it in a [TS]

01:07:10   relationship she fails to find it yeah [TS]

01:07:12   you know trying to solve her [TS]

01:07:13   grandmother's work she just you know [TS]

01:07:17   she's unhappy and 2312 alien microbes [TS]

01:07:20   can't help her [TS]

01:07:21   no way eyes can't help nothing could [TS]

01:07:23   help her the way I think drove me nuts [TS]

01:07:25   because it's like oh my god the AIS [TS]

01:07:27   might be in it [TS]

01:07:28   wait a minute we should turn them off so [TS]

01:07:30   they can't hear us because of course an [TS]

01:07:31   off button AIS will work perfectly [TS]

01:07:34   hey I if I turn you off will you be able [TS]

01:07:36   to hear me oh no not at all well we have [TS]

01:07:39   to trust me i really wanted to buy you [TS]

01:07:41   off now [TS]

01:07:41   yes damn Donna Marino yes i will say [TS]

01:07:46   this I i don't think i have encountered [TS]

01:07:49   a book that was probably better read on [TS]

01:07:52   in ebook form because the number of [TS]

01:07:55   words i had to look up in this book and [TS]

01:07:57   I have a pretty good vocabulary [TS]

01:07:59   yeah I looked up a lot of work that's [TS]

01:08:01   yeah he seemed to really like words I [TS]

01:08:06   totally see what this was supposed to be [TS]

01:08:07   though this was supposed to be the [TS]

01:08:09   melding of money and you can see that [TS]

01:08:11   was supposed to be this very clever [TS]

01:08:13   melting of the ton of different ideas [TS]

01:08:14   had percolating the idea of journal [TS]

01:08:17   pages from someone who is almost an [TS]

01:08:18   undead hand of this person trying to [TS]

01:08:20   help turn the entire you know that [TS]

01:08:24   I'm not empire but you a collection of [TS]

01:08:26   planets trying to strife it's her [TS]

01:08:28   journals her dead hand guiding them [TS]

01:08:30   through this fragmentary knowledge being [TS]

01:08:32   presented through sort of a flawed [TS]

01:08:33   grandchild who matures and become [TS]

01:08:35   someone and you know that happens though [TS]

01:08:37   it's all just separate individual weird [TS]

01:08:39   stuff that happens and that's why it [TS]

01:08:41   doesn't work for me is that it's not a [TS]

01:08:43   story [TS]

01:08:43   no lightning and that's that's what I [TS]

01:08:46   was complaining about what the plot [TS]

01:08:47   centers use write the story as an excuse [TS]

01:08:49   to get them to move around and explore [TS]

01:08:51   this world because he really just wants [TS]

01:08:53   to show you this world he's envisioned [TS]

01:08:55   and that's great but you know this is [TS]

01:08:57   not the medium for them it's a text [TS]

01:08:59   Archer without the interactive part yeah [TS]

01:09:01   I don't it's an info dump it's an [TS]

01:09:03   infidel yeah when telling you from 500 [TS]

01:09:06   pages like I've got all these cool ideas [TS]

01:09:08   really envision things i like i like the [TS]

01:09:10   people at the edge of the solar system [TS]

01:09:12   who are building the ship to go to [TS]

01:09:13   another world and the AI thing i really [TS]

01:09:16   like i like the word salad actually of [TS]

01:09:19   the day is that are trying to be people [TS]

01:09:22   and that occasionally you instead of [TS]

01:09:24   getting these weird info dumps of [TS]

01:09:27   reference material you get these words [TS]

01:09:30   salads of its like this is how an [TS]

01:09:32   artificial intelligence thinks and its [TS]

01:09:33   trying to put things together [TS]

01:09:35   I thought that was pretty cool but you [TS]

01:09:38   know again that these are the things [TS]

01:09:39   that I mean I can see why people would [TS]

01:09:41   like the Grand Tour and like this great [TS]

01:09:43   writer who has written so many things [TS]

01:09:46   giving you this vision of the future and [TS]

01:09:48   revisiting some of the territory and [TS]

01:09:50   some of his most famous work other [TS]

01:09:51   things i can say that i liked about it [TS]

01:09:53   but in the end I mean this is it's weird [TS]

01:09:55   this is like when I try to tell people [TS]

01:09:56   about why i didn't like inception and [TS]

01:09:59   and it's it's not that I thought it was [TS]

01:10:01   bad like poorly executed it's that I [TS]

01:10:05   thought about it for a long time and [TS]

01:10:07   decided that I didn't like it [TS]

01:10:09   that's not the same as saying oh this is [TS]

01:10:11   a crappy movie it's like this is a very [TS]

01:10:13   interesting work that I want to think [TS]

01:10:15   about a lot and then in the end I [TS]

01:10:17   verdict is actually i think by thinking [TS]

01:10:20   about it i've determined that I hate it [TS]

01:10:21   and that's sort of how I feel about this [TS]

01:10:23   is that i had to think about it a lot [TS]

01:10:24   about why i had the feelings i did about [TS]

01:10:26   it but in the end I don't I think it's a [TS]

01:10:29   failure but I I know I i would argue yes [TS]

01:10:32   play at to represent the best piece of [TS]

01:10:35   literature in a year [TS]

01:10:37   of any genre it should be the book that [TS]

01:10:39   makes you think the most whether or not [TS]

01:10:41   i like it or not [TS]

01:10:42   right so I is ideally I would like it [TS]

01:10:45   and it would make me think well I me but [TS]

01:10:47   i think but it depends on what you're [TS]

01:10:49   reading right then i have lots of notes [TS]

01:10:51   during blackout does that mean it's the [TS]

01:10:52   best backup [TS]

01:10:53   I like what I thought in blackout is [TS]

01:10:55   mostly why God why the benefile I i [TS]

01:10:59   think i came down somewhere in between [TS]

01:11:01   you Jason and Scott which is that i [TS]

01:11:03   don't know that i have the energy to [TS]

01:11:05   hate this book is no middle ground [TS]

01:11:07   I is what I was just like I was i'm [TS]

01:11:10   reading this you know and i'm slogging [TS]

01:11:12   through it and I'm reading it you know [TS]

01:11:14   in my major amount of reading time which [TS]

01:11:16   is like right before i go to bed and let [TS]

01:11:18   me tell you how this is not a great book [TS]

01:11:19   three right-handers go to bed because [TS]

01:11:20   only unless you want to go to bed in [TS]

01:11:22   which case it was great but yeah it's [TS]

01:11:25   just I don't know it's I I didn't I [TS]

01:11:27   don't the energy you spoke in this is [TS]

01:11:30   fascinating i mean i-i love that we've [TS]

01:11:32   got all these different different views [TS]

01:11:33   about this book and you know again I've [TS]

01:11:35   talked and talked to people who hated it [TS]

01:11:37   and then I've seen people love it and [TS]

01:11:40   it's won awards and I don't hate it is [TS]

01:11:43   not it's not it's me it's not [TS]

01:11:44   incompetently I mean again my apologies [TS]

01:11:47   my apologies to mirror grant and her [TS]

01:11:50   writer behind the pseudonym but that's a [TS]

01:11:52   book that's not executed well at all [TS]

01:11:54   it's a poorly written [TS]

01:11:56   it's just a bad book is poorly written [TS]

01:11:58   it doesn't make any sense [TS]

01:11:59   it's bad in every conceivable way [TS]

01:12:02   essentially this is not like that this [TS]

01:12:04   is not the work of somebody doesn't know [TS]

01:12:05   what he's doing he knows exactly what [TS]

01:12:07   he's doing and and full credit for that [TS]

01:12:10   he's got a lot of really interesting [TS]

01:12:11   ideas [TS]

01:12:12   there's a lot that he's thrown in here I [TS]

01:12:14   don't think it works but you gotta give [TS]

01:12:16   him credit it is not an empty box that [TS]

01:12:19   he's trying to foist off on this all [TS]

01:12:21   he's a smart guy is is something didn't [TS]

01:12:24   something did not work here it's things [TS]

01:12:27   that are bland can make us crazier than [TS]

01:12:29   things we hate because yeah I feel [TS]

01:12:31   strongly about something that you hate [TS]

01:12:33   your like here's why and these are the [TS]

01:12:35   wrong and just run off into other stuff [TS]

01:12:37   it's horrible when its blend you're like [TS]

01:12:39   oh there's so much [TS]

01:12:40   what I will say there was one thing I [TS]

01:12:42   really did like in this was the rocks [TS]

01:12:43   warm i thought that was very clever very [TS]

01:12:46   well hidden throughout it and it built [TS]

01:12:48   up it was the only plot thing that [TS]

01:12:49   actually sort of made sense and was a [TS]

01:12:51   through line to the end but then when [TS]

01:12:52   you determined the cause of it was [TS]

01:12:54   absurd an interesting but the idea of it [TS]

01:12:57   and how it was built into the plot was [TS]

01:12:58   actually rather close yeah that was the [TS]

01:13:01   point where i started to get interesting [TS]

01:13:02   as I actually liked the mystery part of [TS]

01:13:04   it and that might think among my [TS]

01:13:05   favorite chapters in there are the ones [TS]

01:13:07   with the inspector was they try to sort [TS]

01:13:08   of puzzle through this is what we have [TS]

01:13:10   here she is here she is yes it's [TS]

01:13:13   referred to as he settles we'll take a [TS]

01:13:15   look because she earlier on [TS]

01:13:17   did you notice i got noticed something [TS]

01:13:18   there's a trick that there's a trick in [TS]

01:13:20   there every time the inspector genette [TS]

01:13:22   is mentioned there's never i would I [TS]

01:13:24   can't confirm this I haven't searched [TS]

01:13:26   the entire novel there's never a gender [TS]

01:13:27   use always on Jeanette which is you [TS]

01:13:29   typically all I saw uses hehe yeah I [TS]

01:13:32   think we're saying yes because i noted i [TS]

01:13:34   saw it there and set and thought to [TS]

01:13:35   myself wasn't when I was not a willing [TS]

01:13:37   but it 20 but in 2312 could have people [TS]

01:13:41   who identify as male and that means that [TS]

01:13:43   the year their penis is larger than [TS]

01:13:45   their vagina [TS]

01:13:46   I not that they don't have both also [TS]

01:13:48   also i love that we haven't invented we [TS]

01:13:50   have invented new pronouns despite make [TS]

01:13:52   what we have but Kim Stanley Robinson [TS]

01:13:53   has to translate them for our crazy 20th [TS]

01:13:55   century years [TS]

01:13:56   how about a novel just about inspector [TS]

01:13:58   genette because I kinda like that that [TS]

01:14:01   reminded me of the the main character in [TS]

01:14:03   the in the book that we read i can't [TS]

01:14:06   remember now Scott it was the copy that [TS]

01:14:08   the space based on door yeah happening [TS]

01:14:10   somali i love that guy [TS]

01:14:11   zombie that guy that you know yeah he [TS]

01:14:14   had a space he was with a wonderful [TS]

01:14:15   character the best character in the yeah [TS]

01:14:17   the thing that was reminded me about [TS]

01:14:19   here which again speaking of space [TS]

01:14:21   operate deep deep space humanity out the [TS]

01:14:24   outer solar system kind of fun thing [TS]

01:14:26   books that i enjoyed more than this one [TS]

01:14:27   but so okay we have five we have five [TS]

01:14:30   novels who uh I'm gonna I'm gonna ask [TS]

01:14:33   each of you two were two to rank them [TS]

01:14:35   really quickly from best to worst [TS]

01:14:37   because i think that would be [TS]

01:14:38   interesting [TS]

01:14:39   I go first I i say thrown to the [TS]

01:14:43   crescent moon first and then I have a a [TS]

01:14:47   a large drop off and then I think I say [TS]

01:14:49   captain for patrol and then red shirts [TS]

01:14:53   because i actually like those and then [TS]

01:14:55   it's 2312 and then it's blackout [TS]

01:14:57   Scott what about you don't understand [TS]

01:15:00   that ranking but awards falls somewhere [TS]

01:15:03   between twenty somewhere around 2312 I'm [TS]

01:15:06   not sure above or below [TS]

01:15:09   ah so 2312 is my first choice [TS]

01:15:13   ven captain for people's alliance throne [TS]

01:15:16   of the crescent moon redshirts no award [TS]

01:15:19   yes no blackouts like we agree on no [TS]

01:15:22   award and blackout yes [TS]

01:15:24   damn i'll say captain Orbital Sciences [TS]

01:15:27   my favorite I then i will say thrown to [TS]

01:15:31   the crescent moon which is second should [TS]

01:15:32   win or should have won because of the [TS]

01:15:35   series thing redshirts 2012 didn't read [TS]

01:15:38   blackout and feel like I'm okay with [TS]

01:15:40   that yeah [TS]

01:15:40   glen i think i would go in order [TS]

01:15:44   I guess it's things i like to actually [TS]

01:15:46   enjoyed reading the water enjoyed [TS]

01:15:48   reading them which I hope corresponds to [TS]

01:15:50   order i think i should be recommending [TS]

01:15:51   to people is I think capital patrols [TS]

01:15:54   Alliance red shirts throw the crescent [TS]

01:15:56   moon and I LSA differentiate between [TS]

01:15:58   them but you know sort of loosely in [TS]

01:16:00   that order and then a very very very far [TS]

01:16:02   down 2312 and i would not recommend [TS]

01:16:04   blackout anyone about you Monty [TS]

01:16:06   don't throw the crescent moon made me [TS]

01:16:09   want to read more by that author red [TS]

01:16:11   shirts made me generally away with [TS]

01:16:15   reading more skulls you want to read the [TS]

01:16:17   center of more things by the hospital [TS]

01:16:20   well the problem is every time I read [TS]

01:16:22   something by john scalzi is because [TS]

01:16:24   somebody has linked me to him being or [TS]

01:16:26   really mean to someone [TS]

01:16:28   yeah so I got kinda tired of that and [TS]

01:16:29   Richards kind of turned me around on [TS]

01:16:31   that it so he can actually write fiction [TS]

01:16:33   old dance water is good [TS]

01:16:34   yeah it's on my bookshelf there's a lot [TS]

01:16:36   of things i will show me out and then [TS]

01:16:38   blackout on the bottom [TS]

01:16:40   ok that's a good place for it i'm [TS]

01:16:44   willing to why i will be interesting to [TS]

01:16:46   see what actually wins the hugo I i [TS]

01:16:48   would guess it's going to be red shirts [TS]

01:16:50   because because scalzi tickets although [TS]

01:16:53   Kim Stanley Robinson won the nebula so [TS]

01:16:55   who knows it's true [TS]

01:16:57   who votes on the nebula scifi writers [TS]

01:16:59   yes yes science specialist association [TS]

01:17:02   of america [TS]

01:17:03   yes is that the fan mobilization I mean [TS]

01:17:05   what won the last two years wasn't it [TS]

01:17:07   the know uh blackout all-clear bye-bye [TS]

01:17:10   uh listen [TS]

01:17:12   connie willis my mother liked my joy [TS]

01:17:14   among others which was great [TS]

01:17:15   ok says it's reliable so she's got she's [TS]

01:17:18   got the she's got the chops to get [TS]

01:17:20   nominated for other zombie novels but [TS]

01:17:22   not when so far no she won't she won't [TS]

01:17:25   so if ya blackouts not going to it now I [TS]

01:17:28   i would hope not [TS]

01:17:30   keep telling yourself that this guy [TS]

01:17:31   telling Hugo yeah i think we should be [TS]

01:17:34   added for if ultimatum if-if-if blackout [TS]

01:17:38   wins if any of those novels win then we [TS]

01:17:41   switch it and next year you'll be [TS]

01:17:42   listening to us talk about the humans [TS]

01:17:44   are the nebula nominees instead and uh [TS]

01:17:46   speaking of which I wanted to point out [TS]

01:17:48   one of the nebula nominees I've read it [TS]

01:17:50   NK jemisin who wrote an excellent low [TS]

01:17:53   that was a huge nominee and and has [TS]

01:17:55   written a great trilogy this is the [TS]

01:17:57   first book in a new series called dream [TS]

01:17:59   blood [TS]

01:17:59   the book is called the killing moon it [TS]

01:18:01   was nominated for the nebula but not the [TS]

01:18:03   hugo and I don't know if you guys have [TS]

01:18:06   read it [TS]

01:18:07   scott glenn may have I it will i would [TS]

01:18:11   say i would say it's better than any of [TS]

01:18:14   the hugo nominees I liked it a lot [TS]

01:18:16   it's not it's not super spectacular one [TS]

01:18:19   of my favorites of all time kind of [TS]

01:18:21   thing but i liked it and one of the [TS]

01:18:22   things I liked about it all is although [TS]

01:18:24   it's got some of the setting stuff [TS]

01:18:26   culturally that throw the crescent moon [TS]

01:18:29   does and that it's this middle eastern [TS]

01:18:31   desk culture not just like a patina over [TS]

01:18:35   a standard story no it's very different [TS]

01:18:37   about a guy who's like a a taker of [TS]

01:18:40   souls but he's a compassionate taker of [TS]

01:18:42   souls and there's a whole Brotherhood of [TS]

01:18:44   the compassionate takers of souls but [TS]

01:18:46   they can be corrupted in turn to a [TS]

01:18:48   Reaper which is an evil stealer of souls [TS]

01:18:50   for bad purposes and there's a there's a [TS]

01:18:53   an evil king and there is this whole [TS]

01:18:57   political imagination thing happening [TS]

01:19:00   and a war between these two there's an [TS]

01:19:03   ambassador and and there it's it's uh [TS]

01:19:07   it's there's the whole there's entry got [TS]

01:19:09   majestic master and there's a master and [TS]

01:19:11   an apprentice and it's it's better than [TS]

01:19:14   throwing the crescent moon and i think i [TS]

01:19:16   think it was the [TS]

01:19:17   better than the five nominees so if [TS]

01:19:19   you're if you're if we have dispirited [TS]

01:19:21   you about the hugo nominees maybe try NK [TS]

01:19:23   jemisin is killing moon she has written [TS]

01:19:25   a bunch of this is our fourth I think [TS]

01:19:27   novel you wrote that trilogy and then [TS]

01:19:29   this this is the first in this other [TS]

01:19:31   series i thought was really good so I [TS]

01:19:33   think she and I think she's really good [TS]

01:19:35   cuz i know you guys really liked that [TS]

01:19:36   the other two books in the trilogy that [TS]

01:19:39   started with hundred thousand kingdoms i [TS]

01:19:41   think was the first book you have read [TS]

01:19:43   dogs all three hours the first thing i [TS]

01:19:45   would say all three of them were better [TS]

01:19:47   than me this year's nominees each of [TS]

01:19:49   them is where the good trilogy is [TS]

01:19:50   actually out there it is controlled and [TS]

01:19:52   i have i've written on my blog [TS]

01:19:54   yes that's why are you licensed nine [TS]

01:19:58   books that I thought should have been [TS]

01:19:59   nominated cool [TS]

01:20:01   wow whoa if anyone wants to what [TS]

01:20:05   probably the best one is the the fractal [TS]

01:20:07   prints but based on the reactions to [TS]

01:20:10   2312 everyone other than me on this [TS]

01:20:12   podcast will hate the fractal friends I [TS]

01:20:14   i read the first book in that series and [TS]

01:20:16   quite liked it so do you get kind of [TS]

01:20:19   cranks up the the we're on the yes the [TS]

01:20:22   almost in kind i did not she think that [TS]

01:20:25   was one of the ones where I did not [TS]

01:20:26   think I would like it and i almost put [TS]

01:20:28   it down within the first 20 pages and [TS]

01:20:29   then I don't know what hooked me but I [TS]

01:20:31   really ended up enjoying that book so [TS]

01:20:32   and I i was just looking at my wishlist [TS]

01:20:34   and notice that the fractal prince was [TS]

01:20:35   on it [TS]

01:20:36   I'll and you should read it ok I don't [TS]

01:20:39   know what youre anything came out but i [TS]

01:20:41   just read the night circus and I thought [TS]

01:20:42   that was okay [TS]

01:20:43   oh yeah I like that one Wow was a couple [TS]

01:20:45   years ago that's what looks hows it [TS]

01:20:47   wasn't long time wasn't the wasn't the [TS]

01:20:49   route from this year [TS]

01:20:50   yeah I nominated it and it didn't work i [TS]

01:20:53   was gonna say that was my one of my [TS]

01:20:54   favorite books from this year get it won [TS]

01:20:56   the australian equivalent good fan good [TS]

01:20:58   friend ya mate which is in methods and [TS]

01:21:00   metrics and upside down [TS]

01:21:03   it drives on the wrong side of the road [TS]

01:21:04   as a politician yeah I that was I [TS]

01:21:06   nominated the rook and I renominated the [TS]

01:21:08   dog stars and my things didn't get [TS]

01:21:11   nominated which made me sad because I [TS]

01:21:13   actually read some some things that were [TS]

01:21:15   that were better than these nominees and [TS]

01:21:19   try to get the nominated and it didn't [TS]

01:21:20   happen [TS]

01:21:21   oh well oh such as life when the results [TS]

01:21:24   are announced later this summer we will [TS]

01:21:26   find out what else we can use our [TS]

01:21:28   massive influence as a podcast to [TS]

01:21:30   mobilize people to pay $65 next year and [TS]

01:21:33   nominate quality novels for the huger [TS]

01:21:35   happy like perhaps our are incredible [TS]

01:21:38   power and while they there they could [TS]

01:21:39   many nuts for the fancast word to me has [TS]

01:21:42   all right it's not rate you ever suggest [TS]

01:21:45   however we know that the Hugo's are not [TS]

01:21:47   the scientific determiner of the best [TS]

01:21:49   podcast that's the parsec awards which [TS]

01:21:51   as I said earlier we are nominated again [TS]

01:21:53   and thank you to them and all the wise [TS]

01:21:55   wise people who they are not many [TS]

01:21:58   technical although there may have been [TS]

01:21:59   some kind of mistake in their audio [TS]

01:22:01   drama department there may have been [TS]

01:22:03   that many possibly i'm gonna just I'm [TS]

01:22:06   gonna just take what I can get [TS]

01:22:08   I'm i forgot to update my PHP script to [TS]

01:22:10   vote for us there sorry that's a shame [TS]

01:22:12   you alright so that's it we did it we [TS]

01:22:16   did it we read most or all of the hugo [TS]

01:22:20   novels Scott and I get the gold stars [TS]

01:22:22   again [TS]

01:22:23   545 with who we read another one of [TS]

01:22:27   those books Scott and hey whole trilogy [TS]

01:22:30   oh and the short story or not the right [TS]

01:22:33   I didn't read that [TS]

01:22:35   do you get that you get the purple brown [TS]

01:22:37   star for that one good job how lucky for [TS]

01:22:42   you [TS]

01:22:43   yeah and I feel special well well I'm [TS]

01:22:46   glad at least that i will never have to [TS]

01:22:48   read a media and hopefully say that [TS]

01:22:50   don't why would you why would you jinx [TS]

01:22:53   yourself by God and I've only one day [TS]

01:22:56   away from retire then she writes a new [TS]

01:23:01   series about podcasters who fight [TS]

01:23:04   Frankenstein yes man may I would love [TS]

01:23:07   that sounds great so we did it we read [TS]

01:23:09   them I like doing this I like it less [TS]

01:23:12   this year than in previous years [TS]

01:23:14   I don't think this is a very strong crop [TS]

01:23:15   when I enjoyed the i actually was also [TS]

01:23:19   read the first in that mary robinette [TS]

01:23:21   kowal series about the Victorian series [TS]

01:23:24   about the glamorous people so glamorous [TS]

01:23:27   glass should have also bright i read the [TS]

01:23:29   third book in that series figuring i [TS]

01:23:32   would need to write i would need to read [TS]

01:23:34   the second one and then it didn't get on [TS]

01:23:36   if the you go so I didn't need to read a [TS]

01:23:37   bit that was a better series too so yeah [TS]

01:23:40   and the second book is a lot more action [TS]

01:23:42   good first four is good but first book [TS]

01:23:45   is a lot of people salespeople and [TS]

01:23:47   worried about offending other people and [TS]

01:23:48   yeah [TS]

01:23:49   yes and educational dinner parties with [TS]

01:23:52   magical Glamour's yes there's still some [TS]

01:23:55   dinner parties wasn't glamorous but [TS]

01:23:56   there's also a Napoleonic soldiers and [TS]

01:23:58   escape oh that's nice [TS]

01:24:00   well I'll have to check them out alright [TS]

01:24:02   so that is the saddest are you gonna [TS]

01:24:04   lepas owed for this year we read we read [TS]

01:24:07   them [TS]

01:24:08   we did it great we made for the end and [TS]

01:24:12   i would like to thank my guests for [TS]

01:24:13   coming along on this journey with me [TS]

01:24:16   Scott melty as always thank you for [TS]

01:24:17   reading all the five books you get in [TS]

01:24:20   addition to that Brown star you do get [TS]

01:24:21   the the gold the golden eye glasses for [TS]

01:24:25   being our ace reader [TS]

01:24:26   thank you for being here thank you for [TS]

01:24:29   having me you get a coke and oh god I'm [TS]

01:24:32   i like pepsi that's too bad your finger [TS]

01:24:34   in this whole first yeah the needles [TS]

01:24:36   will come out I wasn't doing later ok [TS]

01:24:39   here's the mind-killer and Fleischmann [TS]

01:24:42   thank you for reading books [TS]

01:24:43   it was a pleasure to be here more so [TS]

01:24:46   than reading all the books for the play [TS]

01:24:48   and yes at least you have the podcast [TS]

01:24:50   look forward to after you read the book [TS]

01:24:51   that's the nice thing about reading his [TS]

01:24:52   books trip they do offend you say well [TS]

01:24:54   i'm gonna give him what-for on the [TS]

01:24:56   podcast option i'll have an opinion on [TS]

01:24:59   the ATS right that that makes it all [TS]

01:25:02   better [TS]

01:25:03   Monty Ashley thank you for for coming in [TS]

01:25:05   the last minute and reading many books i [TS]

01:25:08   actually did something with my week [TS]

01:25:10   hooray hooray i'm sorry we made you read [TS]

01:25:13   that mirror handbook though I'm sorry [TS]

01:25:15   about that i can tell you to stop Monty [TS]

01:25:17   your own fault will give you candy later [TS]

01:25:19   who hey I win but you could say you did [TS]

01:25:21   it it's like climbing a mountain of [TS]

01:25:23   crappy crappy bound and Dan more and you [TS]

01:25:27   you know didn't read it that you are the [TS]

01:25:30   wisest of us all [TS]

01:25:31   thank you for being well i'm on every [TS]

01:25:33   podcast I can't read everything ever [TS]

01:25:34   gonna have I only have so much time so [TS]

01:25:36   true so true and thank you to our [TS]

01:25:38   sponsors audible where you can actually [TS]

01:25:40   listen to these very books that we [TS]

01:25:41   talked about at audible podcast.com [TS]

01:25:44   / incomparable until next time I been [TS]

01:25:48   Jason snow and I continue to be Jason [TS]

01:25:50   sell most of the uncomfortable [TS]

01:25:52   thanks for listening take a look it's in [TS]

01:25:55   a book a Reading Rainbow we'll see you [TS]

01:25:57   next time [TS]