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H.I. #91: Last Man to Die?


00:00:00   Brady's before gentlemen okay quite know

00:00:04   how to parse that sentence but when I'm

00:00:11   like checking my sound before like I

00:00:13   found into you so I'm just checking it

00:00:15   on my own mm-hmm I don't know what most

00:00:16   people would do with they were just like

00:00:18   I check one two or say hello hello but I

00:00:20   always sing like I always sing to the

00:00:23   microphone when I'm doing my check on my

00:00:24   own and it just made me wonder to CGP

00:00:28   grey ever sing I can't imagine you

00:00:30   singing to yourself

00:00:31   I mean Bria I am human after all if you

00:00:35   prick me I will bleed right I don't

00:00:36   think there is a human on earth who

00:00:38   doesn't in some circumstance sing yeah

00:00:43   it's a very very human experience that I

00:00:45   definitely replicate on occasion try

00:00:47   think like what is the best most

00:00:49   probable singing time for me would be

00:00:54   driving in a car on my own that's gonna

00:00:57   be pretty high probability of singing

00:01:01   time because I think that like that's

00:01:02   the best time to sing to oneself okay

00:01:05   you sing in the shower Brady you seem

00:01:06   like a singing in the shower kind of guy

00:01:08   I don't sing in the shower

00:01:09   Shae I was like my thinking time I sing

00:01:12   to the dogs a lot do you mean literally

00:01:14   sing to the dogs or talk in a singsong E

00:01:16   way no I'll sing to them but like I'll

00:01:18   sing them a song but I'll change the

00:01:19   words of the song to make it about the

00:01:21   dogs

00:01:22   so like you know instead of like singing

00:01:24   like Brianna Gill I'll sing Brianna dog

00:01:26   to the dogs and things like that

00:01:28   mm-hmm or if it's songs got the name of

00:01:30   a woman in it like a love song I'll

00:01:31   change it to one of the dogs names or

00:01:33   something that seems like a lot of

00:01:34   effort for very little understanding on

00:01:38   their part probably and singing to

00:01:40   yourself in the car is like a good use

00:01:41   of your time I don't think it's in our

00:01:43   case at the time I was simply saying it

00:01:45   seems like a lot of creative effort to

00:01:48   change the song to be dog related like

00:01:51   sit there and like write a few drafts oh

00:01:53   just sing a song and just change the

00:01:54   word on the spot there's no effort it's

00:01:56   not like a difficult thing to do I don't

00:01:57   think I could change your song on the

00:02:00   fly like that to me it would seem like

00:02:01   oh you'd have to really think about that

00:02:03   I guess if you are as as good with words

00:02:05   as a Brady is you can just spontaneously

00:02:09   start singing in the words come out it's

00:02:11   just

00:02:12   poor like if this is the line of a song

00:02:13   that says you know I love you baby you

00:02:15   just change it to I love you Lulu

00:02:16   there's no cleverness here I'm not like

00:02:18   changing all the different words in the

00:02:20   meaning of the song I'm just like

00:02:21   changing one word to make it cute about

00:02:23   the dogs I'm sure they appreciate it

00:02:26   Brady

00:02:27   the question I have is if you're not

00:02:28   particularly into songs what songs do

00:02:30   you sing like I can't imagine you

00:02:32   knowing the words to any songs if more

00:02:33   just that the like the music plays a

00:02:35   very particular role in my life I don't

00:02:38   have very many venues for new music to

00:02:43   come into my life hmm I just don't

00:02:45   follow it yeah I think like most people

00:02:48   you get kind of largely stuck in the

00:02:51   music that existed when you were younger

00:02:53   so I feel like there's a bunch of song

00:02:54   that I have on rotation that are from a

00:02:57   while ago so you would sing along you

00:02:59   would never sing without music to sing

00:03:01   along with you wouldn't light as well on

00:03:03   the stairs and sing like the first line

00:03:04   of a song that's stuck in your head for

00:03:06   some reason I'm literally not sure I

00:03:08   could do like this didn't even occur to

00:03:10   me as a scenario yeah when you're

00:03:12   discussing you're singing to the dogs I

00:03:13   presume that there's something on the

00:03:14   radio and you're changing your X on the

00:03:16   fly is you're singing along to dogs this

00:03:19   changes the whole conversation baby

00:03:20   because the singing is along with

00:03:23   something yeah right and then the song

00:03:26   is guiding your brain in this rut that's

00:03:29   a very unfamiliar rut so I couldn't just

00:03:32   do it spontaneously that's madness I

00:03:33   don't know how you could do that like I

00:03:35   wouldn't do a full song but like if like

00:03:37   one or two lines of a song gets stuck in

00:03:38   my head and often it's a song I don't

00:03:40   like like I was at the gym a few days

00:03:42   ago and they were playing the song hold

00:03:44   on by Wilson Phillips which is a song

00:03:47   from my youth but it's not a song I

00:03:48   would like want anyone to ever hear me

00:03:50   sing and it's just one line from the

00:03:52   song it's been stuck in my head for days

00:03:54   and days song as I walk up the stairs

00:03:58   and I want it to go away

00:04:00   but I will just sing it you know I'm

00:04:01   sorry about that torment Brady this is

00:04:03   not a frequent experience for me the

00:04:05   line goes if you hold on for one more

00:04:07   day but then if the dogs walk in the

00:04:09   room I'll sing if you hold on for one

00:04:10   more dog you know like right I'll just

00:04:13   sing it to the dogs I see the pattern

00:04:14   here everyone sings to their dogs you

00:04:16   wait and say I don't think to Lucy

00:04:18   ah and you could sing actual Lucy songs

00:04:20   too I used to have a dog called Lucy and

00:04:23   I had another dog called Carlos and they

00:04:24   used to be out in the back

00:04:25   together and my friend Tim used to come

00:04:27   round and he would sing Lucy in the

00:04:30   backyard with Carlos to the music of

00:04:32   Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds

00:04:34   I guess Lucy is a name that has more

00:04:35   song possibilities than Lulu yeah

00:04:39   songwriters out there get on the Lulu

00:04:41   songs when we used to have music lessons

00:04:43   in school we used to have to sing out of

00:04:45   the songbook there was a song about Lulu

00:04:47   it was called don't bring Lulu and it

00:04:50   was about someone was throwing a party

00:04:51   and they didn't want them to bring this

00:04:53   person called Lulu cause she always

00:04:54   ruined the party

00:04:55   I often sing add don't bring Lulu to

00:04:58   Lulu what are you talking about sing out

00:05:00   of the songbook we used to have these

00:05:01   music lessons in primary school where we

00:05:03   had these sing-along books and the

00:05:04   teacher would then put on a tape that

00:05:05   came with the book and the songs would

00:05:09   play on the cassette tape and we would

00:05:10   like have to sing along it was just one

00:05:12   of the activities we would do okay so

00:05:14   you're talking about little little kids

00:05:16   school okay yeah yeah primary school but

00:05:19   there was a song called don't bring Lulu

00:05:20   and all the songs used to sing in school

00:05:22   they're all burned into my head I still

00:05:24   know the lyrics to don't bring Lulu so I

00:05:26   have got a Lulu song ready to roll good

00:05:29   you should think of to her after the

00:05:31   show I can't she's not here tonight well

00:05:33   where is she

00:05:34   well I'm away for the next few days so

00:05:37   the dogs are away at their holiday home

00:05:39   it's a bit of a sad time for me when the

00:05:41   dogs are away right holiday home in the

00:05:44   country let's buy the beach by the beach

00:05:46   they love it they get to walk on the

00:05:48   beach every day I sometimes think

00:05:53   they're a bit sad with regular listeners

00:05:58   or even irregular listeners to hello

00:06:00   internet we know that you and I have

00:06:02   different attitudes to supermarket

00:06:04   checkouts you prefer the self-checkout

00:06:06   mmm-hmm because you don't like sort of

00:06:08   awkward interactions with the people who

00:06:10   are doing the checkout right and I

00:06:12   prefer to go through with the people

00:06:13   because I think the people working in a

00:06:15   supermarket are quicker and better at it

00:06:17   and I don't mind the interaction you're

00:06:19   a man of the people you like to have a

00:06:21   little chat hear what's going on in

00:06:23   their life this has been well

00:06:24   established so anyway an amazing thing

00:06:27   happened tonight like a switch went

00:06:28   tonight in a funny kind of way because I

00:06:32   went to the supermarket tonight and it

00:06:34   was just a quick smash and grab I just

00:06:35   needed to grab three things dinner

00:06:39   I just need a three thing look and I had

00:06:41   my three things and then I got to the

00:06:44   checkouts there's a long long row of

00:06:46   checkouts where I shop very long human

00:06:48   checkouts human checkouts and then right

00:06:50   at the end are all the self checkouts

00:06:52   but I was very far from the self

00:06:53   checkouts and I walked up to the human

00:06:55   checkouts with their big long conveyor

00:06:57   belts and their spacious alleys for

00:07:00   supermarket trolleys and write all of

00:07:02   that and it was very quiet and there

00:07:03   were two or three that had no people so

00:07:06   I could have just walked up and said

00:07:07   here my three things thank you very much

00:07:09   and I was suddenly overcome with this

00:07:12   sense of like guilt or they would think

00:07:15   I was a bad person for going up to the

00:07:18   normal check out with the big conveyor

00:07:20   belt and all the infrastructure in place

00:07:21   for a trolley and I was just going there

00:07:23   with my three items I felt like if I

00:07:25   went up I don't know I felt like I

00:07:27   couldn't do it I felt like three items

00:07:29   were too few so instead I traipsed all

00:07:32   the way to the end to the self-checkout

00:07:34   where I had to queue and where there

00:07:37   were people using the self-checkout

00:07:39   using trolleys with up to like 40 items

00:07:42   laborious Lee self jerking themselves

00:07:45   out and I stood there in the queue

00:07:46   waiting to use my three items on the

00:07:48   self checkout because I felt this

00:07:50   pressure or guilt or something coming

00:07:53   from somewhere that I couldn't use he

00:07:54   came and check out with so few items oh

00:07:58   really

00:07:59   reading two things first of all that

00:08:01   this story just confirms to me like you

00:08:03   don't know how to supermarket there's

00:08:05   something is that that that invalidates

00:08:06   everything I've ever told me about your

00:08:08   supermarket use and secondly I feel like

00:08:10   you're also in a supermarket in an

00:08:12   alternate universe like who's going to

00:08:14   the self-checkout with a trough like

00:08:15   I've never seen such a thing where

00:08:17   someone goes to the self yet to be fair

00:08:19   that freaked me out I swear she had at

00:08:22   least 40 items in her trolley and she

00:08:24   was very slow I was like why okay but

00:08:27   does your supermarket not have a ten

00:08:28   items or fewer Lane that would absolve

00:08:30   your guilt of having the few items

00:08:33   yeah and that's right next to the

00:08:34   self-checkout but once I'd gotten there

00:08:35   I thought I well I might as well do the

00:08:36   self check but there were all these

00:08:40   empty lanes up ahead and I don't know

00:08:41   whether it's just in my head or there is

00:08:43   some yeah it's just rescher that's

00:08:44   happening in society now where if you've

00:08:46   got few items it's considered bad to use

00:08:48   a checkout person but I felt like I

00:08:50   couldn't do it

00:08:51   okay I think this is all in your head

00:08:52   but I'm curious madness do you feel that

00:08:54   there is some kind of social norm that

00:08:56   is spreading here yet if you have small

00:08:59   items you have to use the the

00:09:01   self-checkout yeah I feel like if you're

00:09:02   like a young able-bodied person there's

00:09:05   a few items like where I was you know in

00:09:08   looking all super fit in my gym gear and

00:09:11   all my style yeah I'm a you know with my

00:09:13   three items so then if I went into like

00:09:14   the lane for the people with trolleys or

00:09:17   people who struggle to do things

00:09:19   themselves they'd look at me and go what

00:09:21   are you doing here like okay you're

00:09:23   doing this yourself you're like what are

00:09:25   you so you feel like the human checkout

00:09:27   lanes are not for it the physically fits

00:09:29   and with small items like is that where

00:09:31   you feel like this is going like you

00:09:32   need a bunch of stuff yeah where you

00:09:34   need difficulty that must be it I felt

00:09:36   like I would be abusing a privilege hmm

00:09:39   which I know is stupid and like it keeps

00:09:42   people in a job if I use that line yeah

00:09:44   but I felt like it would be lazy of me

00:09:46   to have used it it just happened tonight

00:09:47   I would I walk towards and I thought now

00:09:50   I can't do it I've got to go and do the

00:09:51   self checkout even though I've got to

00:09:53   walk all the way to the other end of the

00:09:54   store and then go in a line and then do

00:09:57   the checking out myself which I hate

00:09:58   doing and I'm not good at I have this

00:09:59   mental image of you walking past ten

00:10:02   cashiers every one of them with their

00:10:04   eyes on you watching you walk past

00:10:06   thinking that guy is part of the problem

00:10:09   that guy is why I'm gonna get fired next

00:10:11   week because he won't use one of these

00:10:12   checkout lanes I know it may be a rut it

00:10:15   was a weird thing I thought you'd be

00:10:17   pleased by it but I couldn't believe I

00:10:18   was doing it I think he just confirms to

00:10:19   me that we have wildly different

00:10:21   Supermarket experiences and that makes

00:10:23   no sense I feel like there's a related

00:10:25   question here about social expectations

00:10:28   around the use of common areas in this

00:10:31   way so here's a question hmm

00:10:33   there's a bunch of bathrooms one of the

00:10:35   bathrooms has the handicap symbol on it

00:10:39   yeah all of the bathrooms that you could

00:10:41   use except for that one are full hmm

00:10:45   what do you do in the scenario Brady

00:10:47   probably white you'd wait interesting is

00:10:51   anyone there that can see me there is a

00:10:56   security camera in the in the hallway

00:10:58   all right so you're looking at like a

00:10:59   bunch of doors and there's a hallway and

00:11:01   there's a security camera I mean I'd be

00:11:02   less worried about a security camera

00:11:04   than actual

00:11:04   the people but this is why I picked that

00:11:06   in particular there's no human yeah but

00:11:09   you are not purely on your own if I was

00:11:12   capable of waiting okay I would most

00:11:14   likely wait if the situation felt like

00:11:17   it was becoming urgent I may go into the

00:11:20   unused one but if I could wait I would

00:11:22   probably wait what about you I have

00:11:25   always been of the opinion very firmly

00:11:28   that those bathrooms are handicap

00:11:32   accessible they are not handicap

00:11:35   exclusive right I am perfectly happy

00:11:38   without any social guilt whatsoever to

00:11:42   stroll right into the handicapped

00:11:43   bathroom oh so though the times I have

00:11:45   used those toilets I actually find all

00:11:48   that extra space quite disconcerting to

00:11:51   use a toilet and have like a really long

00:11:53   long way away to the door and have all

00:11:54   that open space around me I find quite

00:11:57   unnerving don't you is it like bathroom

00:12:00   agoraphobia is that what you're saying

00:12:02   yeah kind of like I don't want to be

00:12:04   using a bathroom with that much space

00:12:05   around me and lend me that far from the

00:12:07   door because if like someone opens the

00:12:09   door or tries to open the door I'm too

00:12:10   far away to do anything about it that is

00:12:12   a good point if you forget to latch it

00:12:14   you don't have the ability to emergency

00:12:15   slam yeah at the door and save everyone

00:12:18   the embarrassment of what's happening

00:12:19   yeah

00:12:19   all it's going to happen is the door

00:12:21   opens and there you are exposed to the

00:12:23   world I'm picturing that frog walking in

00:12:26   there yeah he just opens the door and

00:12:34   stands there and smiles at you that's

00:12:36   what the Frog does he's not even there

00:12:38   to use the bathroom he's just there to

00:12:40   watch I noticed that you have changed

00:12:44   your Twitter handle and picture to get

00:12:47   into the Halloween theme you have

00:12:50   succumbed to the pumpkin pressure how

00:12:52   ways becomes a pumpkin pressure I don't

00:12:54   know about that you did you think that's

00:12:55   a fair description of what what occurred

00:12:57   oh well I mean either that or someone

00:13:00   just suggested such a cracking name

00:13:03   you obviously have extremely creative

00:13:05   friends here's the thing Brady sometimes

00:13:10   you hear an idea and you just know the

00:13:14   idea is irresistible I feel like it's

00:13:16   not actually pumpkin pressure I just

00:13:18   like that idea was too good to pass on

00:13:20   and plus unbeknownst to you at the time

00:13:23   of recording I was immediately after

00:13:26   going to be posting a video that was

00:13:27   related to death and so like as soon as

00:13:30   that show was over I was like I can't

00:13:32   not do this I have no free will in this

00:13:34   scenario I'm going to have to change my

00:13:36   name to r.i.p gray is not even a choice

00:13:39   so are you happy though do you feel you

00:13:41   feel pleased with yourself I do you feel

00:13:43   like a little sense of ownership

00:13:44   obviously because you then put a death

00:13:46   video didn't make me wonder would you

00:13:48   have done it if you didn't have a death

00:13:49   video in the works but I think you would

00:13:51   have I think it was a good enough idea

00:13:53   that you would to be fair I the death

00:13:54   video thing made it perfect it made it

00:13:56   absolutely perfect in the world but it

00:13:59   was it struck me as just such a good

00:14:01   idea and said such again masterful

00:14:03   wordsmithing partic of a Brady Haran

00:14:06   mm-hmm I think had the stars not aligned

00:14:09   you would still have had a pretty good

00:14:11   chance of getting me to do that can I

00:14:13   just say this whole with this people

00:14:15   changing their names to halloween-themed

00:14:17   and changing their avatars and that

00:14:19   mm-hmm

00:14:20   the thing about it that bothers me the

00:14:21   most and I don't know if it was hammered

00:14:23   home enough in the last episode so I

00:14:24   just this is one point I want to make

00:14:26   it's not so much my problem with doing

00:14:28   it it's how long people do it for they

00:14:31   should just do it on the day of

00:14:33   Halloween like just on yeah first change

00:14:35   your name to something spooky we all

00:14:36   have a laugh doing it for the whole

00:14:38   month you know did I don't think they

00:14:41   celebrate at the end of World War 2 for

00:14:42   a month we change things for Halloween

00:14:46   for a whole month I have to completely

00:14:50   agree with you on that and and also I

00:14:52   agree that we didn't hammer at home well

00:14:54   enough and in the previous show it's

00:14:55   like it could be fun for a day but the

00:14:58   length of time it's just too much it's

00:15:00   just too long and even the whole r.i.p

00:15:02   gray thing i was aware that i felt like

00:15:05   it was a little soon to do it anyway hmm

00:15:07   halloween is fantastic as we both agree

00:15:09   one of the best holidays in the year

00:15:11   everybody loves Halloween but doing it

00:15:15   for an entire month is just too long I'm

00:15:19   also gonna say like I especially think

00:15:21   Halloween is a holiday that really

00:15:25   doesn't serve being stretched out for a

00:15:28   long period of time like Christmas I can

00:15:30   kind of get on board with

00:15:32   and Christmas from like Thanksgiving

00:15:33   until Christmas it's like okay well we

00:15:35   just have a time of year that is merry

00:15:37   and filled with lights

00:15:38   it's the season it's a season yeah it's

00:15:40   a Christmas season and I'm fine with

00:15:42   that I don't like it with it six months

00:15:44   in advance right but I can deal

00:15:46   essentially with two months of Christmas

00:15:48   that's fine but a month of Halloween is

00:15:51   like if we had Valentine's Day and you

00:15:54   started Valentine's Day stuff January

00:15:57   7th yeah no more Halloween stretching

00:15:59   people feet oh come on

00:16:01   one day the build-up week I enjoy the

00:16:04   week build at work yeah building like a

00:16:06   week before seeing the decorations go up

00:16:08   but but Lex they sell pumpkins so long

00:16:10   before Halloween that I think there's no

00:16:12   way those pumpkins are still gonna be

00:16:13   good by Halloween I feel like there's a

00:16:15   delicate line which I'm okay with sort

00:16:18   of fall themed decorations maybe up to a

00:16:22   month before Halloween and in that case

00:16:24   is like while putting out some pumpkins

00:16:26   okay pumpkins a little a little close

00:16:27   but like if you want to put out a squash

00:16:29   I'm very okay with that right but it's

00:16:32   like where do we draw the line of what

00:16:33   becomes a Halloween decoration between

00:16:35   whatever it is just like seasonal

00:16:38   decoration I don't know exactly where to

00:16:40   draw that line but I just need to

00:16:41   specify you know for the record here

00:16:43   that I'm okay with some fall themed

00:16:45   decorations leading up to Halloween but

00:16:47   Halloween is spiders and ghosts and

00:16:50   skulls and witches and werewolves and

00:16:52   vampires and all that stuff that's week

00:16:55   before tops in the previous episode I

00:17:00   said and I spoke on behalf of my home

00:17:04   nation of Australia that when we

00:17:07   pronounce the word Lego we say Lego and

00:17:12   you were quite surprised by this you

00:17:14   were like oh what a funny way to say

00:17:15   Lego and I'm telling you but it was an

00:17:17   Australian ISM I had never come across

00:17:19   it was an Australian in Australia we say

00:17:21   Lego can you imagine my horror when my

00:17:25   fellow Australians started calling me on

00:17:28   and saying what are you talking about

00:17:29   ready it's Lego goodness is this like

00:17:34   have I just alone been doing it all this

00:17:36   time

00:17:37   yeah was this a joke that your family

00:17:38   pulled on you yeah I think all families

00:17:40   have that thing that they do which i

00:17:41   think is kind of strange where a kid is

00:17:44   mispronouncing something in a funny way

00:17:46   and the whole family just lets it slide

00:17:49   for what seems like a really long time

00:17:51   like maybe your family did this with you

00:17:53   and Lego well anyway I was a bit worried

00:17:55   so I did a bit more research a bit more

00:17:57   polling a bit more informal surveying of

00:18:01   people out there and also reading some

00:18:03   articles and it turns out saying Lego

00:18:06   instead of Lego is a South Australian

00:18:09   thing it's something that a lot of

00:18:12   people from my home state of South

00:18:14   Australia the capital of which is

00:18:16   Adelaide right say so it's actually a

00:18:19   regional pronunciation that I was

00:18:22   forcing upon you not all Australians

00:18:24   probably not even all South Australians

00:18:25   for all I know but it's a very South

00:18:27   Australian thing to say Lego and I've

00:18:30   since learned there are other little

00:18:32   enclaves of Canada and the United States

00:18:35   like certain regions or states and areas

00:18:37   where I was also getting a high Lego

00:18:41   pronunciation so there are little

00:18:43   pockets of Lego out there but it wasn't

00:18:46   like a whole countrywide thing and I

00:18:48   just wanted to clarify that I'm just

00:18:49   pulling up a map of Australia here

00:18:51   because when you say South Australia

00:18:55   yeah do you do you mean oh this is

00:18:59   embarrassing is the word province is

00:19:00   what's the the subdivision there States

00:19:03   States okay do you mean the state of

00:19:06   South Australia or do you mean southern

00:19:09   Australia like the bottom half of

00:19:10   Australia I mean the state of South

00:19:12   Australia because Victoria and New South

00:19:15   Wales which Theora I would also appear

00:19:17   to be southern states right other more

00:19:19   popular states and they do not say Lego

00:19:22   they were the ones who were jumping what

00:19:24   do you mean - my eyes is there some way

00:19:26   that they're not more southern it's a

00:19:32   little known fact outside of Australia

00:19:34   but South Australia which is not the

00:19:36   southernmost Australian state by far is

00:19:39   actually differently than it really is

00:19:42   okay you are right but to defend myself

00:19:45   if you lived in Australia you would

00:19:47   refer to those as the eastern states

00:19:49   Victorian New South Wales and Queensland

00:19:51   you would say the eastern states where

00:19:54   are you from arm from the east coast I'm

00:19:55   from the eastern states so even though

00:19:57   Victoria and

00:19:58   south wales are very southern they are

00:20:01   referred to as eastern this is the

00:20:02   linguistic southern verse yes yes I just

00:20:06   want to clear that up to reduce the

00:20:08   amount of feedback that you weren't

00:20:09   getting from someone from Perth

00:20:11   complaining that people in the southern

00:20:14   part of Australia

00:20:15   don't say leg oh I know my Australian

00:20:18   geography here Brady it's just exciting

00:20:22   to hear you talking about these places

00:20:23   to be honest yeah do you like that yeah

00:20:26   we could talk about a little Northern

00:20:28   Territory Darwin Northern Territory of

00:20:31   course is not a state right it's a

00:20:33   territory there's sometimes talk about

00:20:34   giving the Northern Territory statehood

00:20:36   but it hasn't happened yet they drink a

00:20:39   lot of beer in the Northern Territory oh

00:20:40   yeah the highest beer consumption per

00:20:43   capita of anywhere in the world well I

00:20:44   mean it looks like if you're in Darwin

00:20:46   you're very far from everything else so

00:20:50   yeah what are you gonna do you're gonna

00:20:52   say Lego and you're gonna drink your

00:20:53   beer you're gonna drink your beer hello

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00:23:20   making stock photography and video and

00:23:22   audio ridiculously cheaper than it was

00:23:24   before so of course in the great

00:23:27   tradition of hello internet it feels

00:23:29   like as soon as we talk about a thing

00:23:31   the whole world around that thing

00:23:34   changes yeah I'm sure

00:23:35   because of the show we are influences

00:23:37   yes we are influencers shapers shapers

00:23:40   of culture yeah by no means is this the

00:23:44   car effect or when you buy a car you see

00:23:46   it everywhere it's not that at all it's

00:23:49   like it's it's like a reverse the secret

00:23:51   right we think about a thing in the

00:23:52   whole world around us changes to bend to

00:23:54   our thoughts that's just a straight line

00:23:56   of causation it's a straight line of

00:23:57   causation yeah so one of the things that

00:23:59   has happened is we have been discussing

00:24:00   emoji we have we've been discussing

00:24:03   animal emoji in particular in some

00:24:06   detail and B emoji in particular and

00:24:10   complained about Apple B emoji guess

00:24:12   what emoji is being changed in the next

00:24:15   release of iOS Brady really the B emoji

00:24:19   is getting an update that Ronna yeah now

00:24:22   this brings up a thing that I

00:24:25   I want to discuss with you so if you

00:24:26   look at the link in a hit put in the

00:24:28   show notes I am it is not just the B

00:24:30   emoji that is getting changed there are

00:24:32   five animal emoji that are getting

00:24:36   changed in the next update to iOS okay

00:24:39   the B the snail the octopus the whale

00:24:43   and the dolphin okay on the image you

00:24:46   are looking at the top row is the new

00:24:48   version and the bottom row is the old

00:24:51   version yes can you describe for the

00:24:54   listeners what you're looking at and

00:24:55   tell me your thoughts on these changes

00:24:56   alright well let me talk you through it

00:24:58   we do spend a lot of time talking about

00:25:01   emojis for an audio medium but anyway I

00:25:04   think emojis and podcasts is like peanut

00:25:07   butter and jelly right they just go

00:25:09   together perfectly so the old bee was

00:25:11   like a big fat bully be with little tiny

00:25:14   tiny stick legs and stinking antennae

00:25:16   and now it's getting more substantial

00:25:19   realistic insect D legs and beefed up

00:25:23   antennae more realistic beefed up wings

00:25:26   got a slightly droopy a sting yes it's

00:25:30   true it is it does have a do Priya sting

00:25:32   is a big bi as well yes sorry of course

00:25:35   the change of the eye is the probably

00:25:37   the most significant change from just a

00:25:39   little lazy white dot when someone

00:25:41   really wasn't trying to a more sort of

00:25:43   realistic being three-dimensional dome

00:25:46   like dark eye with even with a little

00:25:48   bit of white reflection in it from the

00:25:50   light from the camera that is somewhere

00:25:52   off screen for this emoji or the window

00:25:55   or whatever here okay a snail the main

00:25:59   changes to the snail it's just got more

00:26:01   detail that it's putting more sort of

00:26:03   photo realism in there and again they've

00:26:06   obviously decided the previous eyes that

00:26:09   are on the end of the stalks on the head

00:26:10   of the snail were just too small and

00:26:13   insignificant and they've given it sort

00:26:15   of slightly larger darker eyes are the

00:26:18   bay and the snail also used to have two

00:26:20   little human eyes on top of it stalks

00:26:23   like if you zoom in there basically

00:26:24   human eyes like nose eyes like that

00:26:26   yeah so yes more realism there a bit

00:26:29   more realism but not a dramatic change

00:26:30   the octopus on the other hand they've

00:26:33   gone in hard hmm because the old octopus

00:26:36   was quite cutesy

00:26:38   and was sort of looking at you frontin

00:26:41   and it looked like something that would

00:26:42   be a child's toy or something you wanted

00:26:44   to give a little cuddle to and

00:26:45   significantly it also has four legs but

00:26:48   the upgrade they've gone for more the

00:26:50   killer octopus that you're scared will

00:26:52   grab a ship and pull it underwater and

00:26:55   again it looks more realistic it looks

00:26:57   more aggressive if it's in a more

00:26:59   aggressive pose oh yeah I just realized

00:27:01   that actor pussy's doing like a little

00:27:03   bicep curl with each arm they still have

00:27:05   an up their game to eight legs they

00:27:07   stopped at six well you know what can

00:27:09   you do and you know there's just a

00:27:10   little bit more texture on the head and

00:27:12   again we've gone for more sort of

00:27:13   realism moving on to the whale the whale

00:27:18   again was super cute cutesy child's toy

00:27:21   that would play with in the bath and

00:27:23   they've kind of maintained the cutesy

00:27:26   nurse it hasn't changed a tremendous

00:27:28   amount they've put the eye in a more

00:27:30   realistic place it still doesn't look

00:27:33   like a very realistic whale and they've

00:27:35   added a lot more fine detail to the

00:27:36   water spout that it's blowing at the top

00:27:38   and finally the dolphin dolphin again

00:27:42   hasn't changed much it went from a

00:27:44   pretty kind of run-of-the-mill artistic

00:27:47   representation of a dolphin that's quite

00:27:49   cutesy and they've pretty much kept it

00:27:51   that way but they've just added more

00:27:52   sort of texture and fluting and designed

00:27:56   to the side of the dolphin and they've

00:27:57   made the fins look a bit more real it

00:28:00   still doesn't look like a real dolphin

00:28:01   but they've given it more it looks more

00:28:04   like something that would be a living

00:28:06   thing rather than a drawing do you have

00:28:08   a preference for the new versus the old

00:28:10   like if you have to accept them as a

00:28:12   package new versus old as a package I

00:28:16   prefer the old I don't like the path

00:28:18   they're going down here they're moving

00:28:19   away from the spirit of emojis I agree

00:28:22   with you 100% and in fact when I saw

00:28:25   this image I liked I was thinking about

00:28:28   our conversation last time about emojis

00:28:30   a surprising amount you're talking about

00:28:32   how songs get stuck in your head and

00:28:34   you're thinking about them over and over

00:28:35   again I found myself since our last

00:28:37   recording constantly thinking about like

00:28:39   what is the Platonic ideal of emoji

00:28:42   right this is this is an idea that was

00:28:44   just recurring in my brain over and over

00:28:47   again

00:28:48   and while I was thinking that of course

00:28:50   like our show goes out and then a couple

00:28:52   of days later Apple as a direct result

00:28:54   announces that they're going to change a

00:28:55   bunch of the emoji and this image like

00:28:58   this side-by-side image here of the five

00:29:00   animals and how they're changing it it

00:29:01   really crystallized something in my mind

00:29:03   which is like I didn't like the Apple

00:29:05   emojis all that much to begin with and

00:29:07   now I really don't like them and it is

00:29:10   because it's like Apple has lost the way

00:29:13   of what an emoji is and the thing that

00:29:16   crystallized in my mind is like oh I

00:29:17   know what emoji are emoji are modern

00:29:22   hieroglyphics and as such they need some

00:29:27   level of abstraction like emojis are

00:29:30   almost like an alphabet and the more I

00:29:33   think you make it like a photograph

00:29:35   which is the way Apple is clearly going

00:29:37   like they're making them more photograph

00:29:39   like more impossible to draw the less I

00:29:42   feel like their emoji the less I like

00:29:44   them and I think there's also

00:29:45   crystallized why in the last show we

00:29:47   were talking about the blobs like the

00:29:49   Android emojis would draw a family it

00:29:51   would be a family of blobs like four

00:29:53   little blob creatures like oh that's a

00:29:54   family versus an increasingly realistic

00:29:57   depiction of a family I could never

00:29:59   quite put my finger on like why does

00:30:01   that kind of bug me and now I know

00:30:03   because I feel like some level of

00:30:06   abstraction is intrinsic to what an

00:30:09   emoji is and if you're taking away all

00:30:13   abstraction I don't think it's an emoji

00:30:15   anymore like it's just a picture

00:30:17   I mean speculating on what's going on

00:30:19   here because I think I kind of see

00:30:21   what's going on here and why it's

00:30:22   happening hmm and it all comes down to

00:30:24   how you use your emoji okay tell me

00:30:26   there are two main ways that I use my

00:30:28   emoji the first way is when I'm sending

00:30:32   text messages maybe to someone like you

00:30:34   where we're exchanging a series of sms's

00:30:37   and occasionally we'll drop an emoji and

00:30:38   to be funny or express something and in

00:30:40   that case the emoji is appearing in a

00:30:42   line of text and ideally you want it to

00:30:45   be about the size of the text

00:30:47   yes it's sometimes it's in the line

00:30:48   right and when that happens they small

00:30:51   cute low detail emoji are ideal and the

00:30:54   super detailed emoji seem in fact seem

00:30:57   very very useless

00:30:58   I can imagine these emoji at that size

00:31:01   there is a second way that I use emoji

00:31:03   though and there is when I'm on snapchat

00:31:06   sometimes I'll take a picture and I want

00:31:08   to add an emoji to the picture and when

00:31:10   you do that you make your emojis much

00:31:12   bigger where I drag them onto the screen

00:31:14   and then you pinch with your fingers

00:31:16   outwards to make them bigger and bigger

00:31:17   so they become almost a feature of the

00:31:20   picture like I might take a picture of

00:31:21   the sea and then say oh wouldn't it be

00:31:23   funny if I put a big emoji whale in

00:31:25   there swimming in the sea right and if I

00:31:27   do that the emoji becomes very big and

00:31:29   in that case the detail starts having

00:31:32   some use and in some ways I see more

00:31:34   utility in the detailed ones and the

00:31:36   very low detail emojis when they're

00:31:38   blown up big become quite unusable and

00:31:41   they just sort of look out of place and

00:31:43   wrong they don't work so I don't use

00:31:45   them so I think what's happening is

00:31:47   they're seeing more and more people are

00:31:49   using their emojis as these huge

00:31:50   decorative ornaments in sort of picture

00:31:53   based communication and they're being

00:31:55   used to less and less as a punctuation

00:31:58   mark in a sentence and maybe that's why

00:32:00   they're changing the emojis in this way

00:32:02   and for me that's a shame because I

00:32:04   still prefer the use of emoji in

00:32:06   sentences and text you know in a tweet

00:32:08   or a text to someone so these detailed

00:32:12   ones are doing me a disservice but I can

00:32:14   imagine on snapchat these ones will be a

00:32:16   bit handier that's an interesting

00:32:18   distinction I have a like a slightly

00:32:20   more cynical interpretation Apple is

00:32:23   rolling out this an emoji feature with

00:32:26   their new phone where you can have the

00:32:28   emoji be animated okay I have a

00:32:31   suspicion that Apple is setting up all

00:32:35   of these emoji as being animated things

00:32:39   in the future to maybe integrate with

00:32:41   face recognition on their phone or to be

00:32:44   able to do things with maybe or maybe

00:32:46   not someone spent a lot of time looking

00:32:48   through the history of all the Apple

00:32:49   emoji and seeing the direction they were

00:32:50   going in who knows but if you were to do

00:32:53   that there's a clear arrow toward

00:32:55   increasing detail and especially

00:32:57   suddenly like way more detail I suspect

00:33:00   that that's where they're going with

00:33:01   this but that aside on all platforms

00:33:03   you're totally right that there are two

00:33:05   different use cases there's in line with

00:33:09   text and there is out of line with text

00:33:12   that's totally true

00:33:14   but what makes an emoji and emoji versus

00:33:18   like the concept of a sticker which many

00:33:20   platforms have is that an emoji can

00:33:24   exist in line with text that's what it

00:33:27   is yeah like I feel very strongly that

00:33:29   that is that at the level that the

00:33:31   design should be at and at that level

00:33:34   you have to have a some abstraction

00:33:37   built into the design you can't just

00:33:40   have a tiny picture of the thing you

00:33:43   have to have some level of abstraction

00:33:44   but yeah big giant detailed emojis

00:33:48   everywhere that's where we're going I do

00:33:50   think your emoji theory is more likely

00:33:52   right actually if I have to weigh up my

00:33:54   theory which involves Apple saying let's

00:33:57   make emojis that are more useful for our

00:33:59   customers or your theory which is let's

00:34:01   make emojis which will sell more iPhones

00:34:05   gee how does that board meeting go

00:34:07   [Laughter]

00:34:11   amongst the sort of the the first world

00:34:13   youtuber problems that we grew up about

00:34:15   most freebooting must be up there and

00:34:18   I've been at another freebooting victim

00:34:22   recently but it did highlight one of my

00:34:24   little gripes about freebooters that I

00:34:26   don't think I've raised before I know is

00:34:33   there some depth left unplumbed on this

00:34:36   topic is shocking I think you'll

00:34:38   appreciate this one and I think it comes

00:34:40   from a confusion that people have about

00:34:43   using things fairly fair use and things

00:34:46   like that and it's maybe a confusion

00:34:48   that someone like you has helped foster

00:34:51   with some of our previous conversations

00:34:53   although I don't think like you're the

00:34:54   root of the problem here I just think

00:34:56   it's like because people have probably

00:34:58   heard us in the past often talk about

00:34:59   you know percentages like when we were

00:35:01   talking about that recent fair use thing

00:35:04   there was you know what percentage of

00:35:05   the video was taken and stuff right so

00:35:07   this is what I'll just give you the

00:35:09   practical example because this shows the

00:35:10   example perfectly I got some alert or

00:35:13   something on my system saying or

00:35:14   someone's you know free btg video go and

00:35:17   check it so I went along and did my

00:35:18   check because I always have a look and

00:35:20   see what's this is in the YouTube

00:35:21   content in the YouTube backend because

00:35:23   sometimes they haven't free booted or it

00:35:24   is fair use so it's not even my content

00:35:26   and things like that so

00:35:27   go and have a look so I find this video

00:35:30   it's this math video of mine and the

00:35:32   freebooter in question has taken like a

00:35:34   huge chunk of the video like not the

00:35:37   whole video but say three or four

00:35:39   minutes consecutive unedited and

00:35:42   commented it's just a really nice

00:35:44   explanation of a mathematical concept

00:35:46   with nice animations and it was very

00:35:48   useful to this person so they've taken

00:35:51   that piece of my video and they've

00:35:53   dropped it into a video they've made

00:35:55   that's about an hour long I imagine is

00:35:58   made to be like a lecture or a lesson or

00:36:00   something it's a big long video and

00:36:01   partway through they've obviously said

00:36:03   ah to understand this concept here we go

00:36:05   and then they'll play my video for three

00:36:07   or four minutes and then they crack on

00:36:09   with whatever they were doing in their

00:36:10   video just drummed it in and in there

00:36:13   kind of thing that they wrote where they

00:36:15   like defend to why this is fair use

00:36:17   their defense was this is fair use

00:36:20   because I used four minutes of your

00:36:23   video but that is only ten percent of my

00:36:27   whole video because my whole video only

00:36:31   ten percent of it is to your video

00:36:33   that's fair use because that's hardly

00:36:36   anything and all the rest of it came

00:36:39   from other places so I haven't free

00:36:41   booted you and I think that's ridiculous

00:36:44   I mean that's a new one to me I haven't

00:36:47   come across that before I've seen it a

00:36:48   few times I mean by that rationale I

00:36:50   could upload all of Star Wars and as

00:36:53   long as I tagged another 30 hours on the

00:36:55   end of it of me just juggling I can say

00:36:59   hey I didn't free boot Star Wars because

00:37:01   it's only ten percent of my video yeah

00:37:03   or anything like I'm just gonna go

00:37:05   around and make a compilation of all of

00:37:06   the funniest videos on YouTube right and

00:37:08   for each individual content creator week

00:37:10   oh but you're only 1% of the total thing

00:37:13   that has been created yeah it's like if

00:37:15   I walked around Bristol and punched 50

00:37:17   people in the face and one of them came

00:37:19   up to me said hey he just assaulted me

00:37:20   and said hey no no I punched 50 people

00:37:22   in the face metaphor escalation here

00:37:24   you haven't been assaulted because lots

00:37:26   of other stuff has happened so you

00:37:28   haven't been wronged

00:37:29   so I guess did you see this a lot like

00:37:30   people are using your videos in in like

00:37:33   a longer selection of other thing cuz I

00:37:35   think that is interesting yes that is

00:37:37   quite common like someone will make like

00:37:38   a big long lesson and you know today I

00:37:41   want to

00:37:41   to you all the ins and outs of calculus

00:37:43   and to do so I'm gonna like go and

00:37:45   cherry-pick all the best explanations of

00:37:47   every concept ever and put them all

00:37:49   together in a big mashup hmm but it's

00:37:52   not like they've taken like a few

00:37:53   seconds and critiqued it or used it like

00:37:55   it's just a complete section like a big

00:37:58   section being used because that's just

00:37:59   you know useful to them but don't you

00:38:00   want to spread knowledge of calculus

00:38:02   around the world I'm sure part of the

00:38:04   justification also had some line about

00:38:06   are this video is you know it's it did

00:38:08   say although I'm making money from it

00:38:10   it's educational I don't know what

00:38:13   happened but basically I press the

00:38:15   button to say I don't agree with this

00:38:16   and I don't know what's gonna happen

00:38:18   next I don't know how the system works I

00:38:20   think after a while YouTube just drop it

00:38:23   don't neighbor well you can end up

00:38:24   getting all the revenue from the ads

00:38:27   that are running on their video right

00:38:29   that's the thing that can happen but if

00:38:31   they then say no no I disagree ten

00:38:33   percents fine

00:38:34   what does YouTube do now do they then

00:38:36   say well now what do you say Brady are

00:38:37   you gonna take them to court if there's

00:38:39   this Mexican standoff and you're no

00:38:41   one's willing to go to court who wins in

00:38:43   the end

00:38:43   it's the person with the copyright claim

00:38:45   win right we have this actually with the

00:38:48   hello internet video that was uploaded

00:38:51   several episodes ago when we talked

00:38:53   about the I can't say the name of the

00:38:55   song but the Melissa Florian whatever

00:38:58   yeah that Italian one right the Italian

00:39:00   one and so I put that song in the

00:39:03   podcast for people to hear yeah just

00:39:04   like a sample here's what it sounds like

00:39:06   yeah

00:39:06   hooligan debate whether or not that was

00:39:07   like too much or not enough right this

00:39:09   is always the ambiguities of copyright

00:39:11   well greg was only 0.01% of our podcast

00:39:14   so I think we're safe yeah I may have

00:39:17   used thirty seconds of the song but the

00:39:19   podcast is really long yeah but so

00:39:22   anyway there was a like as I kind of

00:39:24   expected there was going to be there was

00:39:26   a copyright claim on that yeah and I

00:39:29   went through the little appeals process

00:39:30   like I think this is fair use and the

00:39:32   copyright holder came back and said no

00:39:33   they disagree and the way the YouTube

00:39:36   system works which I think YouTube

00:39:39   should definitely improve is that all of

00:39:41   the ad revenue on that podcast goes to

00:39:45   the copyright holder for that song yeah

00:39:47   to me seems like a little much even if

00:39:50   you were in the wrong and use too much

00:39:52   of it which I don't think you did but

00:39:53   even if you did yeah

00:39:55   fact that from that hole to our podcast

00:39:56   they now get all the revenue because we

00:39:58   used 40 seconds of their song instead of

00:40:01   15 that's nuts

00:40:04   yeah it's a weird system it seems like

00:40:06   from everything I've seen with other

00:40:08   Creators and the stuff I've had

00:40:09   first-hand experience on that like one

00:40:11   copyright holder becomes the one who

00:40:13   wins like who's the one that's most

00:40:14   wronged and that person is the one who

00:40:16   ends up with the claim on the revenue

00:40:18   from the advertising dollars no well

00:40:19   what are you gonna do

00:40:21   what are you gonna do you got to pick

00:40:23   your fights don't you yeah then you pick

00:40:25   that fight told that guy now well I

00:40:28   don't know what's gonna happen

00:40:29   sing we're talking about YouTube fights

00:40:31   should we deal with my other one that's

00:40:33   bubbling a look at the moment yeah so my

00:40:36   other little YouTube problem at the

00:40:38   moment gray is I have had another video

00:40:41   demonetized put into the sin bin of

00:40:44   advertising deemed inappropriate and

00:40:47   unfriendly for advertising and instead

00:40:49   of that nice green tick you get next to

00:40:51   a video saying no you can have ads on

00:40:52   this video I have the dreaded yellow

00:40:55   tick of naughtiness brainy I just have

00:40:58   to ask why do you keep uploading

00:41:01   inappropriate videos to YouTube I mean

00:41:03   where there's smoke there's fire right

00:41:05   you give me an example

00:41:05   oh there's one where you're uploading

00:41:07   deranged videos to YouTube and you get

00:41:09   this slap down but you keep doing it you

00:41:11   seem to not be able to help yourself

00:41:12   yeah I keep pushing the boundaries if

00:41:14   it's allowed you keep uploading all

00:41:16   these inappropriate videos do you do

00:41:17   that they're not advertiser friendly I

00:41:19   don't know what you're up to over there

00:41:20   on objectivity those of you who don't

00:41:24   watch objectivity and how dare you not

00:41:27   watch it why how dare you but if you

00:41:29   somehow a measly episode we did a video

00:41:32   about this guy called Eadweard Muybridge

00:41:36   who you may not know the name but in the

00:41:39   1800s was bit of a big deal he came up

00:41:42   with this way of taking in the early

00:41:45   days of photography of taking multiple

00:41:47   pictures very quickly in succession

00:41:49   sometimes being tripped by strings and

00:41:52   things like that and he used other

00:41:53   technology that he pioneered yeah to

00:41:55   show things that were happening quickly

00:41:58   like a horse running yeah I feel like

00:42:00   everybody in the world even if you don't

00:42:02   know his name

00:42:03   everyone's seen that video clip of like

00:42:05   here is the first time we had

00:42:08   motion video in a way horse running he's

00:42:12   the guy who did that because there was

00:42:14   actually a debate whether you know all

00:42:15   the horses hooves were off the ground at

00:42:17   given time and stuff so he he wanted to

00:42:19   break it down he then started filming

00:42:20   everything he could use this camera

00:42:22   system at so anyway he started taking

00:42:24   all these pictures to show animal

00:42:26   locomotion and then he also started

00:42:27   showing human locomotion so he would

00:42:30   show humans doing things like walking

00:42:31   and running and using an axe and fencing

00:42:34   and wrestling and all these different

00:42:36   things so it could be studied in detail

00:42:38   and not only was it like you know a lot

00:42:40   of scientific breakthroughs were being

00:42:41   made this was leading towards obviously

00:42:43   movies and moving pictures because

00:42:45   you've got this quick see he was like

00:42:46   the first slow-mo guy I like to think it

00:42:48   was it was in slow-mo they were playing

00:42:50   it back in real time well no but like it

00:42:51   was using like a high-speed camera to

00:42:53   show things that were too fast for the

00:42:55   eye to see okay he's kind of doing that

00:42:57   same thing you know it was a high frame

00:43:00   rate for the time okay

00:43:01   all right because we had no frame yeah

00:43:07   12 frames per second it's amazing so you

00:43:11   know when he was taking pictures of

00:43:13   humans doing stuff they were usually not

00:43:15   wearing clothing because you wanted to

00:43:17   be able to see you know muscles and the

00:43:19   way the leg was moving and the arm was

00:43:21   moving and if it was all covered in

00:43:22   clothes you wouldn't be seeing it so I

00:43:24   uploaded this video all about all these

00:43:26   old pictures and what he did and we

00:43:27   showed videos of a rah rah rah you can

00:43:30   imagine and in the course of the video

00:43:32   we showed lots of these pictures we

00:43:35   animated some of them to make them into

00:43:36   little movies mhm now the video has

00:43:40   naked people in it you know we left a

00:43:42   lot out that we thought was a little bit

00:43:44   maybe a little bit confrontational we

00:43:46   haven't got like you know things

00:43:47   dangling in people's faces and it's not

00:43:49   - you know I thought we were restrained

00:43:51   yeah you left out the slo-mo pillow

00:43:54   fight that he had filmed as well in the

00:43:56   off hours yeah like that stuff wasn't in

00:43:58   there was a lot of stuff that maybe

00:43:59   could be construed as a bit risque but

00:44:01   you know that we didn't use any of that

00:44:03   it was just you know it was all pretty

00:44:04   normal stuff but there were occasional

00:44:08   glimpses of parts of the body here and

00:44:10   there but it was I thought it was a wrap

00:44:13   the YouTube's automatic system to its

00:44:16   credit unless someone flagged it to its

00:44:18   credit flags this is inappropriate

00:44:20   I disagreed with that I appealed it

00:44:23   asking for a manual review the manual

00:44:26   review has been conducted and the manual

00:44:28   review has come back saying no that's

00:44:30   inappropriate so as it stands now the

00:44:33   video is unavailable for monetization

00:44:36   objectivity videos aren't massively

00:44:38   watched so like this is not costing me

00:44:41   an amount of money that concerns me but

00:44:45   I am concerned about like the bigger

00:44:47   issue not like you know I'm a campaigner

00:44:49   I'm gonna change the world kind of way

00:44:50   but I do think it speaks to a bigger

00:44:52   issue about like art and showing things

00:44:55   and what's right and what's wrong and

00:44:57   what's suitable and not suitable you

00:44:58   have watch the video have you or yeah no

00:45:00   I watch the video alright tell me your

00:45:03   thoughts well first of all I recommend

00:45:04   everybody watch it cuz it was just

00:45:06   interesting to see I didn't know the

00:45:07   extra detail is about this work somehow

00:45:10   assume that the horse thing was like

00:45:12   one-off and seeing the animated early

00:45:15   videos of human motion was really

00:45:16   interesting I just genuinely liked it as

00:45:18   an objectivity video thank you but I was

00:45:21   watching this video and my perspective

00:45:23   on it was you selected video like so

00:45:26   when people hear you describe it right

00:45:28   you listener like whatever is in your

00:45:31   head when Brady just described the video

00:45:34   I can guarantee you what's in your head

00:45:37   is ten times more explicit than what is

00:45:41   in the actual video imagine a man

00:45:45   walking in a low-resolution image who's

00:45:49   walking sideways across the camera with

00:45:52   extraordinarily convenient leg placement

00:45:56   95% of the time that's what's in the

00:45:59   video the level of nudity for the parts

00:46:02   that people care about is so trivial in

00:46:07   this video now when you say it was

00:46:09   flagged immediately that I'm not

00:46:11   surprised because from talking to people

00:46:13   who would know about these things

00:46:15   my understanding is that if there is one

00:46:17   thing that the army of artificial

00:46:19   intelligence bots at YouTube are

00:46:21   extraordinarily good at recognizing it's

00:46:25   naked people know that this is a thing

00:46:27   that the AIS have been trained on and

00:46:29   they can spot very reliably very

00:46:33   immediately

00:46:34   they have high-class Willie recognition

00:46:36   exactly right and this is to YouTube's

00:46:39   total credit like I have in my whole

00:46:41   life I think never ever seen anything

00:46:43   that remotely is pornography on the

00:46:46   channel right like they are deadly

00:46:49   serious and it's a relatively

00:46:51   straightforward thing for the system to

00:46:54   try to automatically flag as people

00:46:56   without clothing so I'm not surprised it

00:46:58   was caught instantly in the trap yeah

00:47:01   but I really think this is a very

00:47:05   interesting case that if this was

00:47:07   manually reviewed by an actual human I'm

00:47:11   gonna say I think this is kind of

00:47:14   outrageous to be classified as a video

00:47:18   that cannot be monetized I really think

00:47:22   this is like if you had a video where

00:47:24   you showed the Statue of David yeah

00:47:27   there's something about this that really

00:47:28   bothers me right where it's like artwork

00:47:30   or anything of scientific value is so

00:47:34   far on the one end of this extreme that

00:47:37   is like if we can't agree that this is

00:47:40   acceptable I feel like all hope is lost

00:47:43   if this is not acceptable I feel like

00:47:46   we've fallen into some kind of crazy

00:47:49   land where you can never know who knows

00:47:52   what's acceptable now I find it

00:47:53   genuinely upsetting that this has been

00:47:56   again if it was a human that this is the

00:47:58   verdict that has come down on this okay

00:48:00   just very quickly on that if it's not a

00:48:03   human that's even worse because that

00:48:06   they make it absolutely clear you have

00:48:07   no right to appeal there's nothing that

00:48:09   can be done about it the judge's

00:48:11   decision is final so if I've been turned

00:48:13   down by AI twice mm-hmm and no

00:48:15   correspondence will be entered into then

00:48:17   that is a little bit unfair but yeah we

00:48:19   don't know we don't know if it's a human

00:48:21   or not so we don't know I just say if

00:48:22   it's a human because I have some very

00:48:24   strong suspicions that at least some

00:48:27   portion of those manual reviews are not

00:48:29   actually going to a human that there's a

00:48:31   bot that's doing the first pass and

00:48:33   maybe it gets kicked up to a human maybe

00:48:35   it doesn't I don't have anything to

00:48:36   prove that but I just have a suspicion

00:48:38   that maybe that's partly the case yeah

00:48:39   anyway on the broader issue I'm the

00:48:42   first to admit if you pardon the pun

00:48:44   that I have skin in the game here so I

00:48:46   will

00:48:47   from the start that okay I'm a bit

00:48:50   biased but I also think it's a little

00:48:53   unfair I will say I do recognize that

00:48:56   Statue of David numerous famous

00:48:59   paintings you could mention venus de

00:49:02   milo all these things and not

00:49:04   photographs they're artworks but i mean

00:49:08   these things i was using a very old from

00:49:10   the 1800s black-and-white grainy

00:49:13   pictures that are really historically

00:49:15   significant

00:49:16   it was the pioneering images that led to

00:49:19   cinema it was really scientifically

00:49:21   significant work like this is like

00:49:23   important stuff in art and science right

00:49:26   it is in no way sexual or sexually

00:49:30   suggestive and that's what the youtubes

00:49:31   terms talk about they don't talk about

00:49:33   nudity as much as things that are you

00:49:36   know sexually suggestive these are in

00:49:37   roadway sexual and in kind of my like

00:49:41   amusement I went and had a look and

00:49:43   Google's own YouTube channel for art and

00:49:47   culture has numerous videos that show

00:49:50   naked bits of art interesting they even

00:49:53   have one where like it's popping up in

00:49:55   front of a little kid and the little

00:49:56   kids giggling although isn't that funny

00:49:58   because you know the person's not

00:49:59   wearing clothes and they have one way

00:50:01   that they could person's on like an iPad

00:50:02   screen and the kids like you know

00:50:04   manipulating it to zoom in and look at

00:50:06   it and things like that

00:50:06   like on their own channel they're quite

00:50:08   comfortable with nude art mm-hmm so I do

00:50:11   know the difference between photos and

00:50:13   art but if that's the defense which I

00:50:17   don't know what the defense is because I

00:50:18   haven't heard anything it doesn't wash

00:50:20   with me and what do I have to do now

00:50:22   should I have uploaded that video with

00:50:23   big you know black boxes over the top

00:50:27   supposed to do that kind of stuff drives

00:50:30   me even more crazy that would make me

00:50:31   look stupid

00:50:32   that would make everyone look stupid and

00:50:34   it makes everyone look stupid and it

00:50:36   also falls again into my very strong

00:50:39   feelings about this that like when you

00:50:43   go crazy about the prohibition of a

00:50:46   thing whatever that thing is is like

00:50:48   guess what you're the one who's making

00:50:51   it powerful or you're making it into a

00:50:55   thing that it isn't and so that's why

00:50:58   it's like if you start putting black

00:50:59   bars over like as we're had

00:51:01   this discussion I have on screen in

00:51:03   front of me probably the most in quotes

00:51:06   suggestive part which is a 135 where you

00:51:10   have the three film strips of the man

00:51:11   walking to the side the man walking

00:51:13   front and the man walking back you have

00:51:15   this blown up on a 27-inch screen that's

00:51:19   two feet from my face at HD resolution

00:51:23   right but of course I'm looking at a

00:51:25   thing that's from the 1800s

00:51:26   that's filmed at an angle there's not

00:51:29   four pixels of detail in this image here

00:51:33   to put a black bar over it is like a

00:51:35   mockery it's like what are you hiding

00:51:38   all that black bar is doing is like oh

00:51:40   right this is the black bar of shame

00:51:43   right because this is the thing that can

00:51:45   never be seen putting black bars on it

00:51:47   would sexualize err you don't get a

00:51:49   picture of Michelangelo's David and you

00:51:50   think that's a nice sculpture you put a

00:51:52   big black bar over his private parts and

00:51:55   suddenly it seems more sexual yeah it

00:51:57   totally does there was a meme a few

00:51:59   years ago which was fantastic where

00:52:01   people were pixel izing parts of

00:52:04   innocuous photos and it's amazing how

00:52:07   sexually suggestive you can make a

00:52:10   totally normal photo by very strategic

00:52:13   pixelization of particular moments so

00:52:16   the mean was you sure like the before

00:52:17   and after like with the pixelization or

00:52:19   without there's another meme which is

00:52:21   about like seeing the nudity and it's it

00:52:24   works surprisingly well were you take a

00:52:25   photograph of a fully clothed person and

00:52:28   you just put transparent circles on that

00:52:31   photograph in strategic spots and it's

00:52:33   so crazy but like your brain sort of

00:52:35   fills in what the person looked like

00:52:37   this kind of censorship I legitimately

00:52:40   think makes it more of what it isn't it

00:52:45   would be crazy for you to put black bars

00:52:48   on this video it would 100% achieve the

00:52:52   exact opposite purpose and make the very

00:52:56   thing that isn't something into

00:52:59   something so yeah it's so frustrating

00:53:01   it's absolutely frustrating I'll just

00:53:03   send you a tweet I did yesterday you

00:53:05   know just as an another case in point I

00:53:07   got a couple of famous cultural images

00:53:10   yep perfect

00:53:11   so Brady's just sent me his tweet with

00:53:13   Leonardo da Vinci

00:53:15   famous man in the circle right with the

00:53:17   black bar a strategically placed and the

00:53:20   Venus de Milo with a bar across her

00:53:23   chest

00:53:23   oh yeah unambiguously the bar makes the

00:53:28   images worse than they are without the

00:53:30   bar it's the thin end of a wedge isn't

00:53:31   it in terms of culture and history and

00:53:33   that when we start having to push this

00:53:36   stuff aside because we want to cater to

00:53:38   advertisers who they think might be

00:53:41   sensitive I'd be surprised if any

00:53:43   advertisers were sensitive about this

00:53:44   video by the way because what they're

00:53:45   going to do in the long run I mean

00:53:46   they're not going to change me but in

00:53:48   the long run people are going to stop

00:53:49   making the videos about certain subjects

00:53:52   because they can't monetize them and

00:53:53   then those subjects just fade out of

00:53:55   existence you know is there a whole

00:53:56   generation in period in art history that

00:53:59   is going to be disproportionately less

00:54:00   covered on YouTube because people can't

00:54:02   show the paintings yeah I mean we've

00:54:04   sort of skirted around this issue a

00:54:05   couple of times on the show but this is

00:54:07   why I think it's always dangerous to get

00:54:10   into the content filtering game yeah I

00:54:14   feel like all platforms should stay as

00:54:15   far away from this as they possibly can

00:54:17   because it is the thin end of the wedge

00:54:19   there's no winning even if you think

00:54:23   you're doing the right thing is like

00:54:25   this is a perfect case like would any

00:54:27   advertiser in the world actually care

00:54:28   about this no but I know for a fact that

00:54:32   this kind of D monetization does have a

00:54:36   chilling effect on the kinds of content

00:54:38   that people produce for the platform

00:54:42   we've said it before but I think YouTube

00:54:43   and platforms like it are big enough

00:54:46   that I don't think you can play the oh

00:54:49   it's just a company card anymore I think

00:54:53   at a certain point it becomes so vital

00:54:57   for speech that this kind of stuff

00:54:59   really matters and this objectivity

00:55:01   video is just like a perfect example

00:55:03   because you have everything going for

00:55:07   you like it's historically significant

00:55:10   it's barely visible is the most

00:55:13   innocuous video imaginable and if this

00:55:17   can't get through the filter like what

00:55:20   hope is there for anything that is

00:55:24   remotely near and interesting

00:55:28   edge there's no hope at all for that

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00:56:36   the files I think I'll need while I'm

00:56:38   away it could be video files I have to

00:56:40   edit with personal bits and pieces that

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00:56:44   I'm away and I'd do it sort of is always

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00:57:57   hello internet as always our thanks to

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00:58:05   great you have been a school student and

00:58:08   you also have been a school teacher tell

00:58:11   me what comes into your head or your

00:58:12   memories or how you feel or what you

00:58:14   think when I say to you school photos or

00:58:16   class photos what emotion does this

00:58:19   bring out in you what do you mean like

00:58:20   you know like in a yearbook

00:58:21   well did you presumably when you're at

00:58:23   school like once a year would you have a

00:58:24   photo taken of the whole class that

00:58:25   would go into like yeah a yearbook or

00:58:27   and your parents could buy one and would

00:58:29   they take a loved one one of you on your

00:58:31   own as well each year school look here's

00:58:33   CGP grey when he was in year 2 and here

00:58:35   he is in year 3 here his class photos

00:58:37   all through the years school photos I

00:58:40   haven't thought about this in forever

00:58:44   this is something that maybe in another

00:58:45   five years would have totally passed out

00:58:47   of my mind but yes I'm glad I saved it

00:58:51   oh right these are some neural pathways

00:58:54   left untouched for a very long period of

00:58:57   time well they can be quite damaging

00:58:58   memories too like maybe you have

00:59:00   repressed memories thing the one kid in

00:59:03   the class photo who like has his or her

00:59:05   eyes shut that sticks with you for years

00:59:07   I mean I'll take your word for it

00:59:11   but none of my memories are surfacing

00:59:14   that piece of information

00:59:15   you obviously have good photo face I'm

00:59:18   terrible at having my photo taken is

00:59:19   that what we're going to have here is

00:59:20   Brady therapy corner for your old school

00:59:23   photos well maybe it is I don't know let

00:59:26   me tell you what's got me thinking about

00:59:27   this let me send you a photo okay

00:59:30   unfortunately I can't share this with

00:59:32   the collective because it's a it

00:59:33   involves a whole bunch of people whose

00:59:34   permission we don't have right but this

00:59:37   is the class photo of my nephew so my

00:59:41   sister sent it to me and said have a

00:59:42   look at the cute class photo this is not

00:59:44   how I remember class photos looking but

00:59:46   you know we live in a new age now whoa

00:59:48   what what what it no this is weird this

00:59:50   is not a class photo what do you think

00:59:53   of that okay let me just set the

00:59:55   vacation so in my head need class photo

00:59:59   is

00:59:59   is

01:00:00   is you shuffle everybody down to the gym

01:00:02   yeah and you're sitting on the bleachers

01:00:04   so there's some height difference

01:00:06   between everybody yeah maybe there's

01:00:08   like a little plaque in the front where

01:00:10   someone has put the words on that says

01:00:12   what this is a photo of yeah and that's

01:00:14   where you take the picture Jones Smith

01:00:16   high schoo year three yeah

01:00:20   1987 yeah you want to be real fancy you

01:00:23   go outside into the bleachers so there's

01:00:24   trees in the background that's wow you

01:00:26   had some nice ones right I went to a

01:00:28   very posh school would us be like the

01:00:30   whole year level it would be broken into

01:00:32   classes in homeroom so it's like groups

01:00:33   of 30 or were you like a group of like a

01:00:35   hundred or something like my rusty

01:00:37   memories are that it like in primary

01:00:39   school it was just the class yeah and

01:00:42   that in high school they shuffled

01:00:44   everybody out onto the bleachers yeah

01:00:46   the whole bunch think but I could be

01:00:48   wrong about that so explain this one

01:00:50   that I sent to you I think most people

01:00:52   have that image in their head hopefully

01:00:53   that we've always done insane this is my

01:00:55   nephew this is the new generation of

01:00:57   class photos how would you describe this

01:00:58   one okay well just like with movies I

01:01:01   know you want my opinion at first I'm

01:01:02   gonna give this class photo a thumbs

01:01:03   down it's really weird

01:01:05   and what makes it weird is okay so

01:01:08   instead of the kids sitting in the

01:01:10   bleachers they are all standing in a

01:01:13   line next to each other so that it's

01:01:16   just all of the kids in a big row facing

01:01:19   the camera facing the camera facing wide

01:01:21   like a panorama shot isn't it yeah it's

01:01:24   I give you were there with your iPhone

01:01:25   you would need to put it into panorama

01:01:27   mode to take this picture

01:01:28   yeah the background is an empty void of

01:01:32   nothing it's just a pure white

01:01:35   background which makes me wonder like

01:01:38   was that they roll out the like the

01:01:40   green screen for this this photograph it

01:01:43   kind of looks like it is a clothing

01:01:45   catalog for the uniform that these kids

01:01:49   are wearing yeah like if I didn't know

01:01:51   any better I would almost assume this

01:01:53   was an advertisement in a magazine

01:01:55   that's like hey look at these uniforms

01:01:58   for these kids the kids are they're not

01:02:00   just standing in a line all looking at

01:02:03   the camera they look very posed and it

01:02:05   looked very posed like it's and magazine

01:02:07   was like oh here's a kid and the kids on

01:02:09   either side have who were taller had

01:02:11   their hands on his shoulder right Simon

01:02:13   got their arms crossed and some have got

01:02:14   like sassy poses with a hand on their on

01:02:16   their hips yes I'm looking at a couple

01:02:18   of the girls have like the very standard

01:02:21   photo pose of hands on hips like one

01:02:24   knee a little bit forward

01:02:26   it looks really strange I have this

01:02:28   feeling like a like again a kind of meme

01:02:30   that you see sometimes on the Internet

01:02:31   is where if you look in a catalog

01:02:33   someone will sometimes post these images

01:02:35   where you can see that the person doing

01:02:37   the Photoshop job has messed up and

01:02:39   there's an extra hand where a hand

01:02:40   shouldn't be because someone was

01:02:42   photoshopped out of the scene right or

01:02:44   there's like something's really weird

01:02:45   that you don't notice at first and this

01:02:47   photo feels like I wouldn't be surprised

01:02:50   to learn this is actually a composite

01:02:52   photo of a bunch of shots gray it

01:02:55   totally is they were photographed as

01:02:57   like in twos or threes right okay

01:02:59   separately and then they were all put

01:03:01   together afterwards into this big long

01:03:02   line yeah there's one that has like it's

01:03:05   like a seam yeah it looks strange it's

01:03:06   the one mistake they made the rest of it

01:03:08   was actually done pretty well but I'm a

01:03:10   little bit mortified by this I have some

01:03:12   feelings about it but tell me why are

01:03:14   you mortified I know I'm like old

01:03:16   fashioned right and we live in this

01:03:18   digital age but there are a few things

01:03:20   about doing class photos so digitally

01:03:22   and I've seen this a lot lately class

01:03:23   photos now are amazing they're like

01:03:25   they're so different to what they used

01:03:26   to be they're like portraits one of my

01:03:28   other nephews I saw his class photos the

01:03:30   other day and it was like a photo shoot

01:03:31   from another world with all that lovely

01:03:33   bakker and you know everything's all

01:03:35   amazing and there's like these candid

01:03:36   poses rhinorrhea one thing which was in

01:03:40   my old high school yearbook like the

01:03:43   photographer came to the school and did

01:03:44   the did the photo shoots and said

01:03:46   everybody looks the same yeah but one of

01:03:48   the girls her father worked in the

01:03:50   fashion industry and like she had a

01:03:52   photo that stood out right as as

01:03:53   noticeably different because it was just

01:03:56   crazy professional I do is never being

01:03:58   like I was that kid I don't think I

01:04:01   would want this so when you say that

01:04:02   they look different I can easily imagine

01:04:03   what you're talking about I don't know

01:04:05   if there was just of rites of passage

01:04:07   thing about class photos that I don't

01:04:10   know it felt like it gave me life

01:04:11   lessons and it was character building

01:04:13   and I feel like that's all been taken

01:04:15   away for example in the old days of

01:04:17   photos when they didn't have you know

01:04:19   digital cameras and we all lined up and

01:04:20   had our individual photos taken it was

01:04:23   like your one charts that would go bang

01:04:24   and then you wouldn't say anything think

01:04:26   weeks and six weeks later you'd be given

01:04:29   like these envelopes to take home for

01:04:30   your parents where they would say do you

01:04:32   want to buy some of these I'm the kid

01:04:34   and like if your eyes were shut or you'd

01:04:36   go to prom or something like you'd blown

01:04:38   your chance I had one chance and like

01:04:41   you didn't know if you'd done it or not

01:04:42   and that teaches you a lot about life

01:04:44   like surreptitiously because laughs like

01:04:46   that sometimes you know you had your one

01:04:48   chance and don't blow it kid

01:04:50   that's the lesson you should learn in

01:04:51   life it's kind of like but now it's like

01:04:53   let's take a thousand until we get it

01:04:54   perfect and and it's the same with the

01:04:56   class photo you know be having someone

01:04:59   who has their eyes share in the photo I

01:05:01   mean that doesn't happen now because

01:05:02   they do them all separately that's why

01:05:03   they're doing this so that no kid is

01:05:05   gonna have a stinker because if you put

01:05:07   twenty kids in a line you have to take a

01:05:09   thousand photos until you get the one

01:05:11   you need but here you're taking away

01:05:12   that problem by just doing them in pairs

01:05:14   making sure everyone's eyes are open and

01:05:16   things like that and like so it's just

01:05:19   taking away that kind of randomness and

01:05:21   it's also taking away like the

01:05:22   camaraderie of a class photo it was the

01:05:25   one time you're all together and you be

01:05:26   all lined up by height and you'd learn

01:05:28   how tall you all were in relation to

01:05:29   each other and you'd secretly be hoping

01:05:31   that you'd end up in the photo somewhere

01:05:33   close to like the girl you had a crush

01:05:34   on or something and there's so much

01:05:36   going on in the class photo and it was

01:05:38   just all character building stuff and

01:05:40   then you try to get bunny ears on the

01:05:42   kid who's in front of you yeah and then

01:05:43   you get to take a funny one at the end

01:05:45   if you're like in the older kids like

01:05:46   it's your final year school you'd say

01:05:48   can we do a funny one where you all do a

01:05:49   crazy pose and they'll take one of those

01:05:51   and also like I don't know if it was

01:05:53   just made me or not I've told people

01:05:55   about this and they say it is just me

01:05:56   but I never knew what day the school

01:05:58   photos were gonna be and you just turn

01:06:00   up one day and like the photograph

01:06:01   company is there having taken over the

01:06:03   gymnasium or something and it's like I'm

01:06:04   a goodness at school photo day you know

01:06:06   what a surprise and it's a big part of

01:06:09   most memories of school and these photos

01:06:11   become a big part of your life and you

01:06:14   know you look back at your old school

01:06:15   photos occasionally so I don't know this

01:06:18   is a case where I think the digital path

01:06:19   is getting rid of some problems but it's

01:06:23   also taking away a lot of charm and a

01:06:25   lot of character building and a lot of I

01:06:27   don't know maybe I'm just overly

01:06:30   sentimental I mean look I'm very happy

01:06:32   to be the first one in the pylon of

01:06:34   Brady is too sentimental I got my front

01:06:36   row ticket to that party but like I am

01:06:39   totally with you on this school

01:06:40   photo thing great auks oh sorry one

01:06:42   other point I didn't make it also like

01:06:45   is instilling in a really interesting

01:06:47   lesson about fakery because this photo

01:06:50   is designed to look like they're all

01:06:51   together at once these kids know they

01:06:53   weren't riously because that incident

01:06:55   never happened that's a moment in

01:06:56   history that never happened that they've

01:06:58   all now got as a keepsake for all time

01:06:59   and it's just instilling at an early age

01:07:01   that nothing is real yeah I mean maybe

01:07:05   to be devil's advocate for a moment

01:07:07   that's the most important lesson that

01:07:08   you can teach children these days kids

01:07:12   you live in a world where you can trust

01:07:14   nothing that you see yeah okay they did

01:07:16   the reverse is also true

01:07:17   it also instills early on that nothing

01:07:19   has to be real we'll fix it all in the

01:07:21   Edit everything can be fixed in the Edit

01:07:24   we'll fix it all in the edit but I don't

01:07:25   like it because I said if you were going

01:07:27   to take a picture of this with your

01:07:27   iPhone you need to take it like a

01:07:29   panorama but the thing that's that's

01:07:32   weird isn't like in a panorama everybody

01:07:34   would be at a different angle all right

01:07:37   like you would be rotating the camera

01:07:39   and so not all of the kids would be the

01:07:42   exact same distance from the camera and

01:07:44   in this photo it's like oh right of

01:07:47   course all of these kids are looking

01:07:50   straight ahead into a camera but there's

01:07:53   a line of 20 of them side by side so

01:07:56   there is no place you could put the

01:07:58   camera to actually get this photo the

01:08:01   way it looks with all of them standing

01:08:04   in a straight line except a mile away

01:08:06   with a telephoto zoom at an infinite

01:08:08   distance you could capture this

01:08:11   photograph right and since it seems like

01:08:13   they're standing in a Euclidean fantasy

01:08:16   land right where there's just infinite

01:08:19   nothing in all direction maybe that's

01:08:21   where this photograph was actually taken

01:08:23   but this is a case where psych I'm all

01:08:25   fine with digital stuff but if you're

01:08:27   doing the digital stuff it has to look

01:08:30   right this just looks terrible my big

01:08:32   vote for why were school photograph days

01:08:36   great is not for lessons learned or any

01:08:41   of that sentimentality stuff my

01:08:43   perspective on it was just oh thank god

01:08:46   it's a day that's different

01:08:48   it's a different day at the school we're

01:08:51   not going through the same routine you

01:08:53   would hope that it would land

01:08:54   someday with the extra boring classes

01:08:56   that you don't like and I feel like poor

01:08:58   kids the school routine it's you know

01:09:00   it's the same thing day in day out and

01:09:03   any chance you can get to like go

01:09:05   outside and sit in the bleachers that's

01:09:08   way better whereas I can already see

01:09:09   that from a school perspective they sure

01:09:11   would love this because it can also be

01:09:14   much less disruptive right you can just

01:09:15   catch some kids whenever they're

01:09:17   available you don't necessarily have to

01:09:19   mess up the whole schedule take them out

01:09:20   two or three at a time yeah this modern

01:09:22   world Brady you know can I tell you one

01:09:25   of my journalistic war stories that just

01:09:27   came into my head please please do so

01:09:29   back in the newspaper days when

01:09:31   photoshopping was like a high-tech like

01:09:34   normal people couldn't do it this was

01:09:35   many many moons ago like analogue

01:09:37   photoshopping is that the kind of stuff

01:09:39   word document I don't know what we're

01:09:40   exactly the technology was at but sort

01:09:42   of certainly this story will give you an

01:09:44   idea where the technology was at because

01:09:45   my beat was covering like the City

01:09:48   Council and I'd done it for a while and

01:09:50   I had really good context and I was a

01:09:51   really good mischief maker my favorite

01:09:53   stories weren't like you know the

01:09:55   important stuff that was being done in

01:09:56   the council it was like making mischief

01:09:58   as my specialty mm-hm and I knew the

01:10:01   council was having like their official

01:10:03   portrait taken this was the 20 members

01:10:05   of the City Council whoever they the

01:10:07   elected members I can't remember how

01:10:09   many there were and they were having

01:10:10   their equivalent of a class photo done

01:10:12   and they were wearing all the official

01:10:14   regalia all the formal robes of the City

01:10:16   Council and the traditional stuff and it

01:10:18   was being done in the council chamber

01:10:19   which is a lovely ornate room where they

01:10:22   would have their meetings but the doors

01:10:23   were locked and I wasn't allowed in

01:10:25   which made me suspicious but anyway I

01:10:28   wandered by and I looked through the

01:10:29   keyhole at one point and I saw them all

01:10:32   in their robes and getting ready and

01:10:34   standing in lions to have their photo

01:10:35   taken they were doing it the

01:10:36   old-fashioned way with you know short

01:10:38   people at the front tall people in the

01:10:39   second row mm-hm and one of like the

01:10:42   council officials like one of like the

01:10:43   PR people who was not a councillor he

01:10:46   was just like a lackey a staff member

01:10:47   was wearing all the regalia and the

01:10:49   robes and I was so confused but an

01:10:52   unlearning oven and then the next day I

01:10:55   was talking to one of the other

01:10:55   counselors and I said I was looking

01:10:57   through the keyhole and I saw what's his

01:10:59   chops wearing the robes what the heck

01:11:00   was that all about and she said oh look

01:11:02   I'm not supposed to tell you but I will

01:11:05   because there were such gossips

01:11:07   so and so the counselor couldn't be

01:11:10   there because he was sick so they got

01:11:12   this person to stand in the photo and

01:11:14   then they used modern technology to put

01:11:17   that person's head on the photo mm-hmm

01:11:20   and I was like no way

01:11:21   so like a couple of days later when the

01:11:23   official photo got released to the press

01:11:25   you know here's the council photo which

01:11:27   is something we'd normally would have

01:11:28   just ignored cuz who cares

01:11:29   mm-hmm either cold the council and ask

01:11:31   for an official statement about whether

01:11:33   councillor Jones or whatever who's in

01:11:35   the photo it was that really him so they

01:11:37   had to like fess up that it wasn't and

01:11:39   that was such an unusual thing to happen

01:11:41   and it was considered like so scandalous

01:11:43   that it became it was like page 3 or

01:11:45   page 5 or the paper or something one of

01:11:46   these counselors is not really there

01:11:48   it's a you know it's a pretend photo it

01:11:50   wasn't like a scandal like the count you

01:11:51   know people should be sacked but it was

01:11:53   like funny and embarrassing for them and

01:11:56   it was a big thing yeah but now you

01:11:57   think nothing of it you know school

01:11:59   photos are Photoshop but back then

01:12:01   having like someone's head put onto

01:12:03   another body for the official portrait

01:12:05   you know what I still think that's wrong

01:12:06   to this day look at you Brady rustling

01:12:09   up trouble where there's no trouble at

01:12:10   all trying to kick up a scandal for some

01:12:13   poor guy probably staying at home

01:12:14   because he's sick no I took this day I

01:12:16   think it's wrong when you go through the

01:12:18   holes of City Council and you look at

01:12:20   all those portraits over the year the

01:12:22   photos of all the previous councils

01:12:24   knowing that photos not a real photo and

01:12:25   they all weren't there in one place it's

01:12:29   wrong it's wrong it's not a document of

01:12:31   a moment they were all together that's

01:12:32   what bothers me photographs are

01:12:35   sometimes documents of amazing times in

01:12:37   history when you know you look at those

01:12:39   photos where like you see all these

01:12:41   famous scientists in one photo like

01:12:42   Einstein and Niels Bohr and yeah and I

01:12:45   know the exactly what you're thinking of

01:12:46   yeah it leaps right to my head yeah

01:12:48   imagine if you found out actually two of

01:12:51   those people weren't there and they just

01:12:52   put their heads on later the thing

01:12:53   that's special about that photo is they

01:12:55   were all in one place at one time yeah

01:12:57   and it's the same with a school photo

01:12:59   this thing about a school photo is they

01:13:01   were all there if you were sick on

01:13:03   school photo day back in my day you

01:13:04   weren't in the school photo absent you

01:13:06   know tuflow jones you've been erased

01:13:08   from history and again that's a life

01:13:11   lesson if you're not there you're not

01:13:13   there but these days there's no lesson

01:13:15   like that these days if you're not there

01:13:17   we'll just put you there later

01:13:18   that's not how life works but maybe it

01:13:21   is Brady its how it works now gray it's

01:13:25   plane crash corner time it'll be a quick

01:13:30   one there's just been so much happening

01:13:32   this car is bursting at the seams I feel

01:13:34   like you're already contradicting

01:13:36   yourself you're pretty you're like oh

01:13:37   we're good we're gonna do a quick plane

01:13:38   crash corner and then you're coming up

01:13:40   to me with all of these model airplanes

01:13:42   in your hand I've got so many I want to

01:13:44   talk about it's a promise it's gonna be

01:13:46   really quick hey you're the one slowing

01:13:48   it down you're complaining about how

01:13:50   long plane crash corner is just making

01:13:52   it longer it's all my fault it's all my

01:13:54   fault do you have any superstitions when

01:13:56   you get on a plane okay so a while back

01:13:59   I found myself unintentionally

01:14:04   developing a superstition for getting on

01:14:07   the plane yep I don't know how it

01:14:09   started I don't know what it was but it

01:14:11   was a behavior that I became aware of

01:14:13   which is I have this tungsten wedding

01:14:15   ring on my hand and yeah when I was a

01:14:18   teacher I used to like tap it on things

01:14:21   sometimes for like a point of emphasis

01:14:23   in a classroom and I tend to just like

01:14:26   tap it on stuff because it makes a

01:14:27   pleasing sound and at some point I got

01:14:30   into the habit of just as you're

01:14:32   stepping on the plane as you're leaving

01:14:35   the gangway of tapping the ring on the

01:14:38   outside of the plane on the physical

01:14:41   surface of it yeah and it became a

01:14:43   superstition and I was doing it a bunch

01:14:45   but not really realizing it and at some

01:14:49   point I became aware of this as a

01:14:50   conscious behavior and I have since

01:14:53   banished this this is what superstitions

01:14:55   are right there's some part of your

01:14:56   brain that's not really thinking things

01:14:58   through I did have a brief period of

01:15:00   time where it's like as I'm walking into

01:15:02   the plane and like you're not gonna tap

01:15:03   you ring on the surface of the plane

01:15:06   it's fine nothing's going to happen you

01:15:09   know nothing's gonna happen don't let

01:15:10   yourself fall into the category of

01:15:13   building up this habit over time so I

01:15:16   sort of did but I I have since gotten

01:15:19   rid of it well grey I have a

01:15:21   superstition when I get on planes okay

01:15:22   and it's the exact same thing I've never

01:15:25   gotten on or off a plane without

01:15:27   touching the outside fuselage of the

01:15:28   plane

01:15:29   really I do it every time just

01:15:32   my hand I just have to touch it I just

01:15:33   have to have touched the outside of the

01:15:35   plane for the first time ever when I got

01:15:37   on a plane about a week ago one of the

01:15:40   air stewards noticed that I did it as I

01:15:43   was getting on I'd touch the outside of

01:15:45   the plane friendly enough she said oh

01:15:46   you can touch me instead if you like

01:15:47   which now I think about it sounds kind

01:15:49   of weird but it wasn't for that's not

01:15:51   advertiser friendly at all she didn't

01:15:53   mean it like that but when I as I said

01:15:55   laughs I realized I sound a weird but

01:15:57   she was just being my friendly but if we

01:15:59   bleep out what she said it'll sound way

01:16:01   better right that is that how that works

01:16:03   right we'll take that we'll put a bleep

01:16:05   over it then it'll be just fine

01:16:06   oh yeah touch beep instead I feel like

01:16:11   maybe this is a more common one it's it

01:16:13   seems unlikely that you and I have both

01:16:17   engaged in the exact same behavior that

01:16:19   the fact that that is the thing that we

01:16:20   think that going in and out of a plane a

01:16:22   lot of people are touching the edge like

01:16:24   I particularly don't want to do plane

01:16:25   crash corner right now because I'm

01:16:26   getting on a plane tomorrow right it's

01:16:28   like goddammit but when I am getting on

01:16:32   the plane tomorrow I'm gonna be paying

01:16:34   attention and see if anyone on the line

01:16:37   in front of me touches the plane on the

01:16:38   way well I've learned my lesson and I'm

01:16:40   not gonna say tweet me if you touch the

01:16:41   outside of planes for anyway a lot of

01:16:44   cultures have superstitions that involve

01:16:46   coins but in particular the Chinese do

01:16:48   apparently and there's a story I read a

01:16:51   few months ago but the exact same thing

01:16:54   happened a few days ago so it's happened

01:16:55   twice now where Chinese passengers as

01:16:59   they've been walking along the tarmac to

01:17:00   get on the planes for luck have thrown

01:17:03   coins into the engine of the plane Jesus

01:17:06   Christ and then this has been spotted

01:17:08   and obviously then they've had to pull

01:17:10   the engine apart get the coins out

01:17:14   there's a link in the notes video look

01:17:16   at I've got it open right in front of me

01:17:18   a superstitious passenger delayed a

01:17:20   flight from Shanghai for several hours

01:17:22   on Tuesday after throwing coins at the

01:17:24   plane's engine for good luck they're

01:17:26   usually elderly women that do it

01:17:28   like imagine if it didn't get spotted

01:17:32   there's so many different aspects of

01:17:33   this when you say imagine if it didn't

01:17:35   get spotted

01:17:36   I would hope to god that a jet engine

01:17:38   could chew up a penny and spit it out

01:17:41   but now there's the niggling thought

01:17:44   that it couldn't that there is a nonzero

01:17:46   possibility that if it hits in just the

01:17:50   right way especially as the engine is

01:17:52   starting up and not at full chewing

01:17:54   through stuff capacity that there's some

01:17:56   damage that could be done so great great

01:17:59   let me put let me put this to you great

01:18:01   if you are getting on a plane and you

01:18:03   thought in the corner of your eye but

01:18:04   you weren't totally sure you saw an old

01:18:06   Chinese lady throwing coins in the

01:18:08   direction of the engine you don't know

01:18:10   is that what she was doing did she

01:18:12   actually get it near the engine what

01:18:14   happen I don't know what would you then

01:18:16   tell some people as you got on the plane

01:18:17   I think maybe that person threw coins at

01:18:19   the end really or would you just keep

01:18:20   still before you can even get to the end

01:18:21   of this question before you can even

01:18:23   pose the question I've already added to

01:18:26   my mental pre-flight checklist keep an

01:18:28   eye on the old Chinese ladies it's

01:18:30   already now going to be part of my plane

01:18:32   boarding routine to be looking around as

01:18:35   like hmm okay

01:18:37   terrorists Marist like who knows anyone

01:18:39   could be a terrorist you can't pick them

01:18:41   out like an old Chinese lady who has

01:18:43   something in her hand I can have my eye

01:18:44   on you lady right isn't that racial

01:18:46   profiling yeah yeah this tough luck

01:18:48   right but if if apparently this is like

01:18:50   a thing where old Chinese ladies throw

01:18:52   coins into engines for luck it's racial

01:18:56   profiling and life-saving

01:18:57   it does seem to have become a trend so

01:18:59   keep your eyes out babe oh man I didn't

01:19:03   know you were flying tomorrow great I'm

01:19:05   sorry to be throwing a few of these

01:19:07   things babies another what I wanted to

01:19:08   ask you about if you look on the next

01:19:10   link there was a recent case as an Air

01:19:12   France plane flying across the Atlantic

01:19:14   a380 the big news superjumbo something

01:19:17   went wrong with the engine it kind of

01:19:20   blew itself apart a bit mid-flight it

01:19:23   then landed and everything was okay

01:19:25   the thing is they've been a bunch of

01:19:27   pictures they're a bunch of pictures on

01:19:28   Twitter and in the press that people

01:19:30   took out the window of the blown-up

01:19:32   engine like you know that badly damaged

01:19:34   engine while the plane was still flying

01:19:37   my question is if you are on a plane and

01:19:40   something happened to the engine but the

01:19:41   plane was still flying and the captain

01:19:43   just camera said I'll we've lost one of

01:19:45   the engines but it's gonna go on land

01:19:46   now for safety

01:19:47   would you take photos of it would you

01:19:49   get your phone out and think oh well and

01:19:51   take a bunch of photos of the damaged

01:19:53   engine on the plane that you're

01:19:54   currently flying in okay now this is a

01:19:57   very particular situation because I

01:20:00   generally don't like window seats I

01:20:02   especially don't like window seats where

01:20:05   I have a view of anything mechanical out

01:20:07   the window hmm

01:20:08   because I will find myself just looking

01:20:11   like looking at the wing and looking at

01:20:14   those little flaps that come up looking

01:20:16   at the mechanical pieces that are

01:20:18   underneath and if it's a stormy night

01:20:21   you're looking at the gremlin who flies

01:20:23   on and off the wing repeatedly as the

01:20:25   plane goes on so I specifically try to

01:20:28   avoid seats that are the windows or that

01:20:31   have a view of the wing I do not like it

01:20:33   but if for some reason I was in one of

01:20:36   those seats yeah and something happened

01:20:40   because I host a podcast with a co-host

01:20:44   who is obsessed with plane crash corner

01:20:48   I don't see how I could not take a photo

01:20:50   I feel like if I was in that situation

01:20:53   you would berate me for the rest of the

01:20:56   time that we knew each other for not

01:20:58   taking a photograph of that engine so so

01:21:01   the answer is yes I would feel compelled

01:21:03   because of the situation that I am in

01:21:05   but if I which is like a regular citizen

01:21:07   I'm not sure it would occur to me like

01:21:11   looking at the pictures that you're

01:21:12   showing you like this is an engine that

01:21:13   looked pretty badly damaged it's not

01:21:15   like a minor thing I somehow expect that

01:21:17   I would in that moment it just would not

01:21:19   occur to me to take a photo of the

01:21:21   engine that's my guess as I mentioned

01:21:23   many times the plane crash corner you

01:21:25   know every time I fly now I get to know

01:21:28   that if the plane does go down you know

01:21:30   I'm gonna be thinking about Brady and

01:21:31   plane crash corner in my final moments

01:21:33   on this earth so thank you that means I

01:21:35   will have some kind of responsibility to

01:21:37   document them perhaps tweet them in my

01:21:39   final moments on the plane going down so

01:21:42   yeah I would be taking pictures would

01:21:44   you be taking pictures Brady I probably

01:21:47   would take a picture yeah but I can

01:21:48   understand someone who wouldn't

01:21:50   not because it wouldn't occur to them

01:21:52   I'm amazed that it wouldn't occur to you

01:21:53   but I can see how someone might feel

01:21:56   like it's inappropriate like now is not

01:21:58   the time to be taking pictures when like

01:22:00   you know lives could be at stake sort of

01:22:02   thing only to say that it might not

01:22:05   occur to me simply because in in those

01:22:06   kind of situations like people can have

01:22:09   unexpected behavior that's why it's it's

01:22:10   like I think it might not cross my mind

01:22:12   but I would fully expect Brady to be

01:22:14   taking pictures possibly selfies where

01:22:18   you're pointing out the window at the

01:22:19   engine that's the kind of picture that I

01:22:21   want from you if you ever you're on a

01:22:22   plane in the engine gets all busted up

01:22:24   interestingly the debris from that

01:22:26   engine was found very quickly afterwards

01:22:28   in the barren wastelands of Greenland

01:22:31   they found it really quickly like some

01:22:33   of the parts that fell off the engine

01:22:35   mm-hmm and yet they have finally totally

01:22:39   yet again abandoned the search for this

01:22:42   Malaysian Airlines entire plane that

01:22:45   went missing mh370 they went missing

01:22:47   around the time hello internet first

01:22:49   started that I was sure would be found

01:22:52   within two or three episodes that gave

01:22:54   birth to plane crash corner I suspect

01:22:56   yeah it probably did but I feel like

01:22:58   this is the Voyager probe reaches the

01:22:59   edge of the solar system story like

01:23:01   haven't we given up the search for this

01:23:03   flight several times now you're right it

01:23:06   has happened several times and just to

01:23:08   keep it going and quickly the point I

01:23:09   wanted to raise because this is the

01:23:11   latest development because since the

01:23:13   Australian search party officially

01:23:15   abandoned the search which upsets some

01:23:18   people in Malaysia because there's so

01:23:19   many Malaysian people on the planet

01:23:21   right a few other companies have stepped

01:23:23   in and offered to do it privately the

01:23:26   most interesting being this company

01:23:28   called ocean infinity I believe which

01:23:31   have offered to search for the debris

01:23:33   somewhere in the Indian Ocean far far

01:23:35   off the west of Australia for free

01:23:38   unless they find it in which case they

01:23:41   would get a finder's fee

01:23:42   I kind of like a no-win no-fee type blue

01:23:44   search for a plane that went missing and

01:23:47   I wonder what you thought of that

01:23:48   proposal I feel like I need to see the

01:23:50   economics of that it's it sounds like an

01:23:52   incredibly expensive thing to do hmm I

01:23:54   would certainly want to get the money

01:23:55   from the Malaysian government in escrow

01:23:58   before moving it like you know I'm not

01:24:01   exactly sure how would be trusting

01:24:03   Malaysia to like a pony

01:24:04   up the millions of dollars necessary if

01:24:05   this happens there's something kind of

01:24:07   macabre about kind of a you know no-win

01:24:10   no-fee type situation around like you

01:24:13   know a tragedy and a loss of so many

01:24:14   lives and this thing that's sort of

01:24:16   there's just something that felt a bit

01:24:18   weird about it

01:24:19   when I first heard it that made me think

01:24:20   is this right like is this what we've

01:24:22   come to do you think they should be

01:24:23   searching out of honour or human

01:24:25   responsibility or some other junk like

01:24:27   that in my opinion that is what they

01:24:28   have been doing for the last few years I

01:24:30   mean I've been tirelessly searching the

01:24:32   ocean floor spending a fortune as it is

01:24:34   that has been happening and now that

01:24:36   finally they've said look this is

01:24:38   getting ridiculous enough Sanath does

01:24:40   that mean it's time to bring in like you

01:24:42   know the Cowboys I don't know maybe it

01:24:44   is and maybe that's how it will get

01:24:45   found you know the Titanic was found

01:24:47   like that wasn't it admittedly a long

01:24:49   time afterwards but by private

01:24:51   enterprise but something about it just

01:24:53   felt a little bit just a bit uneasy with

01:24:56   me but maybe it's just me being queasy I

01:24:59   think it's you wanting people to do

01:25:01   things just to do them yeah I feel like

01:25:03   as soon as the money gets involved

01:25:04   you're crossing your arms and go hmm I

01:25:07   don't know about this Malaysian airline

01:25:10   hunt stroke SpaceX right well maybe

01:25:14   that's it though I feel that maybe

01:25:15   there's a bit of emotional blackmail

01:25:16   here cuz the families of the people who

01:25:18   are on that plane are most strongly the

01:25:20   people who wanted to be found with very

01:25:22   good reason who finally the government's

01:25:24   and the officialdom have sort of given

01:25:25   up and said look we just can't find it

01:25:27   mm-hmm but now these other people have

01:25:29   come in seen like an opportunity and

01:25:31   they can leverage sort of the emotional

01:25:33   pressure of these people who are saying

01:25:35   no no we need it found to say to the

01:25:37   government hey come and you know it's

01:25:39   not going to cost you anything unless we

01:25:40   find it you've got all these upset

01:25:42   people and all the upset people are

01:25:44   saying yes yes get them to do it we want

01:25:45   it found I feel that it's a bit it's a

01:25:47   little bit blackmailing maybe yeah maybe

01:25:49   I feel like I'm okay with it the

01:25:51   Malaysian government doesn't have to

01:25:52   take them up on it yeah I guess if they

01:25:54   get the job done then they've succeeded

01:25:57   where others have failed so see what

01:26:00   happens I'm sure we'll still be talking

01:26:02   this long long into the future which

01:26:04   happens first does Malaysian Airlines

01:26:07   wreckage get found or does the podcast

01:26:10   come to an end or is the discovery of

01:26:12   the wreckage like the trigger point for

01:26:14   the end of the podcast like maybe that's

01:26:17   it

01:26:18   the ocean infinity other people who will

01:26:20   bring us to an end like we no longer

01:26:22   have a reason to exist

01:26:23   yes because plane crash corner is the

01:26:26   beating heart of hello Internet hello

01:26:30   Internet its future gray here who took

01:26:33   the plane trip and hasn't died well yet

01:26:36   anyway but I did take a photograph of

01:26:38   the engine while I was in the air that

01:26:40   seems like the kind of thing that could

01:26:42   become a bit obsessive maybe a bit like

01:26:46   a superstition that I'd have to take a

01:26:48   photograph of the airplane engine every

01:26:50   single time man if I started getting a

01:26:53   lot of those I would need some place

01:26:56   that I could show them off on the

01:26:58   Internet where could I go to make an

01:27:02   amazing portfolio website that I could

01:27:06   show on the internet I know where I

01:27:09   could go I know where you could go its

01:27:13   Squarespace Squarespace is the best

01:27:16   place to go to make your website if you

01:27:20   just have a weird obsession with

01:27:22   airplane engines or perhaps plane

01:27:23   crashes but have no technical skills

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01:28:29   reality today with Squarespace

01:28:32   let's move to lighter subjects because

01:28:34   this is on facilities plane-crash

01:28:35   corners a bit heavy going let's talk

01:28:38   about death yes death the latest of

01:28:40   topics so gray your most recent video

01:28:43   uploaded is about death I think it's

01:28:46   about life Brady about life it's about

01:28:49   life and death basically you're saying

01:28:51   come on man

01:28:53   we should all live forever let's get our

01:28:55   act together and do this yeah kind of do

01:28:58   you know what can I just say for at

01:29:00   least six months now like I've got like

01:29:02   a list of questions in my head of things

01:29:04   I would ask you if we have a relative

01:29:06   things to talk about okay and there's

01:29:08   about five or six of them and one of

01:29:10   them has been for a long time do you

01:29:13   ever worry that the key to eternal life

01:29:16   like you know immortality will be

01:29:18   discovered just after you die and the

01:29:22   reason that questions been in my head

01:29:24   for a long time to ask you is cuz I feel

01:29:26   there was something about you that has

01:29:27   like a interesting preoccupation with

01:29:30   death and living forever obviously

01:29:34   everyone has feelings about death but

01:29:36   like you have in this interesting way

01:29:38   that I think has been made more public

01:29:42   now by your last video I'm not curious

01:29:45   can you do you have any particular

01:29:47   reason that you feel that way cuz I go I

01:29:49   find that sort of surprising I think

01:29:51   it's just kind of something I had taken

01:29:53   on by like osmosis just from lots of

01:29:55   little things it's not like you talk

01:29:57   about it all the time but just the times

01:29:58   it's come on I don't know but I'm not

01:30:00   making it up it is a question that I've

01:30:02   wanted to ask you for a long time

01:30:03   because I I've always thought it is

01:30:05   something that concerns you I think the

01:30:07   thing that you're picking like when you

01:30:08   say by osmosis you might be onto

01:30:10   something there because I've been very

01:30:12   hesitant to do a video like this for a

01:30:15   long time like this has been on my topic

01:30:17   list for forever but I've always been

01:30:20   very hesitant to do it because at least

01:30:22   in my personal experience talking with

01:30:25   people is a topic that gets a lot of

01:30:29   pushback in interesting ways and often

01:30:33   quite frankly in ways that I don't

01:30:35   really understand so yeah it's been up

01:30:37   my list for a while but I think what you

01:30:39   might be picking up on osmosis is the

01:30:41   thing that I've never really wanted to

01:30:44   say

01:30:45   out loud and that may bleed through in

01:30:48   our conversations of death is the

01:30:50   reverse of what you're probably thinking

01:30:52   it's not that I actually have some kind

01:30:55   of focus on death it's that in the back

01:30:58   of my mind I feel like I have it like

01:31:02   there's a nonzero chance that I might

01:31:06   not die in what is a normal human time

01:31:09   frame but I kind of never wanted to say

01:31:13   it out loud

01:31:14   or talk about it on the podcast or do a

01:31:15   video about it because it feels like

01:31:18   jinxing it it's almost like a

01:31:19   superstition it's not touching the

01:31:21   outside of the plane yeah exactly that

01:31:23   is 100% what it's like and so I think

01:31:26   maybe that's what comes across on the

01:31:28   podcast sometimes when we talk about

01:31:29   death is I have this little spark in the

01:31:33   back of my mind which is actually the

01:31:35   exact reverse it's not that I have a

01:31:38   worry or a preoccupation with my own

01:31:41   death I'm actually very indifferent to

01:31:45   my own death because my feeling is just

01:31:47   like well when you're dead you know you

01:31:49   don't care it doesn't matter it's not a

01:31:51   big deal but I do have a feeling that

01:31:53   there may be a nonzero chance that I may

01:32:00   have a longer than normal human life

01:32:03   span as in oh people of your generation

01:32:04   not just like I think I might be part

01:32:12   Elvis no that's not what it is let me

01:32:14   back up for a second here and say that I

01:32:16   do think that radical life extension

01:32:20   technology is a thing that can exist in

01:32:25   our universe I don't think there is any

01:32:29   technical reason that this is not

01:32:33   possible to build as opposed to

01:32:35   something like sort of like the Star

01:32:38   Trek transporter which is like

01:32:40   essentially a magic piece of technology

01:32:43   that you know we may live in a universe

01:32:45   where nothing like a transporter is ever

01:32:47   built and it's not really feasible to

01:32:48   build something like a transporter but I

01:32:50   don't feel that way about life extension

01:32:54   because my my view of it is that this is

01:32:57   a biological and a physical process and

01:33:03   it is a biological and physical process

01:33:07   that I think that we will be able to

01:33:10   intervene in in some way at some point

01:33:14   in the future and then yes I think that

01:33:17   that then raises a very interesting idea

01:33:19   that there does come a moment where

01:33:22   there may end up being a divide where

01:33:25   there's like the last generation to die

01:33:28   and the first generation that lives

01:33:30   unusually long lives I mean in your

01:33:33   video great you you sort of showed it

01:33:35   graphically quite nicely you sort of

01:33:37   drew that divide and showed like a whole

01:33:39   bunch of people falling off one side of

01:33:41   the ravine and the other people the

01:33:43   other side that was almost you making

01:33:45   manifest what I thought maybe was

01:33:48   something that's set in your head that

01:33:49   fear of being the last little stick man

01:33:51   who's the wrong side of that divide yeah

01:33:54   because as soon as you put that idea out

01:33:55   there that does create that fear there

01:33:58   is gonna be one man or woman who's the

01:33:59   last person to die before you know

01:34:03   obviously there'll be some blurring but

01:34:04   you know what yeah yeah there is gonna

01:34:06   be this like this unlucky generation and

01:34:08   gosh who wants to be in that unlucky

01:34:11   generator okay so this is interesting

01:34:12   let me just let me just clarify

01:34:13   something here because do you agree like

01:34:15   with this proposition at all like do you

01:34:18   think this is a thing that is

01:34:19   technically possible to do you know me

01:34:21   like I'm a devil's advocate and I'll

01:34:23   argue against anything but I find that

01:34:26   one hard to argue against okay black hmm

01:34:29   if we can like make atom bombs we can

01:34:32   just one-by-one check off the list of

01:34:33   all the things that are causing us to

01:34:35   age and die I can't see like an

01:34:37   imperative in the universe that makes us

01:34:40   die like I don't think we could you know

01:34:41   there are some things in the universe I

01:34:42   think maybe we can't stop like you know

01:34:44   we probably can't speed up light right

01:34:46   or change like the fundamental constants

01:34:49   we can't change Pi or the gravitational

01:34:51   constant yeah but I do feel that we can

01:34:53   tinker with our own machinery and if we

01:34:55   can tinker with our own machinery then

01:34:57   yeah we probably can dramatically change

01:34:59   it that's really interesting for me to

01:35:01   hear I was really unsure about where

01:35:03   where you would fall on this and again

01:35:06   it is partly because I'm very surprised

01:35:08   in personal conversations that it's like

01:35:10   even talking about this subject with

01:35:12   almost everybody puts me quickly into

01:35:14   kooky category which is also why I was

01:35:17   like a little bit hesitant to do a video

01:35:18   on this topic for a while is it's like

01:35:20   there's something about this that feels

01:35:23   very different than the topic of like

01:35:24   free will where people can simply

01:35:27   disagree that you're crazy comes out way

01:35:30   faster on this topic then on other

01:35:32   topics of crazies the word I would use

01:35:34   but there is a certain stigma attached

01:35:38   to people who want to live forever or

01:35:41   live for a long time yeah

01:35:42   that it's not always craziness it's like

01:35:44   a certain kind of like a bit of a knob

01:35:46   yeah another word that comes up very

01:35:48   quickly is like arrogance yeah so when I

01:35:50   watched your video I actually made a

01:35:52   little tweet and I was I guess I was

01:35:55   being a bit uncharitable to you and like

01:35:57   taking the Mickey oven but I just

01:35:58   tweeted it cuz it reminded me there's a

01:36:00   scene in the UK office where the the

01:36:02   boss of the office this guy called David

01:36:03   Brin is talking about like his attitude

01:36:06   to life and philosophies to life and

01:36:08   then one of the things he says you know

01:36:10   he says there's an old saying live hard

01:36:12   and die young and then he just suddenly

01:36:14   turned serious and goes I don't want to

01:36:16   die young I want to die old I want to be

01:36:18   really old and one of David Brent's like

01:36:20   characteristics is that he wants to live

01:36:23   for a really really long time I don't

01:36:25   remember that in his personality in the

01:36:27   show huh and I think one of the reasons

01:36:28   they gave him that characteristic is

01:36:31   because it's a bit of an arrogant Nobby

01:36:33   characteristic okay yeah I can see also

01:36:35   I think also maybe it's a bit like it

01:36:37   could be considered quite a selfish

01:36:38   attitude mmm-hmm because that people who

01:36:40   say that rarely talked about wanting

01:36:41   everyone to live a long time they

01:36:43   usually just talk about how they live a

01:36:45   long time you know what if all the

01:36:47   people around you died what would you do

01:36:49   he'd be like no I'd still want to live a

01:36:51   long time so there is a certain stigma

01:36:53   attached to people who wade into this

01:36:55   territory and maybe that's also way like

01:36:58   some of your reluctance was coming from

01:36:59   there could be it don't get me wrong if

01:37:01   for some reason I could only accept

01:37:03   personal immortality I would accept that

01:37:06   at the drop of a hat

01:37:07   if I keep my eye out for any passing

01:37:09   vampires it's like it's not a likable

01:37:11   quality to want to be immortal is one of

01:37:13   these funny things where I've been well

01:37:15   I've been working on this this is like

01:37:16   an incredible rush job scripts for

01:37:18   various reasons that are not interesting

01:37:19   for the podcast but while I've been

01:37:21   working on this it's like every movie I

01:37:23   have watched

01:37:24   the villain is obsessed with the idea

01:37:25   about living forever yes seeing this

01:37:29   everywhere and it's like all of the

01:37:32   villains like this is this is a primary

01:37:33   characteristic and all of the heroes are

01:37:35   arguing for humanity Indiana Jones and

01:37:39   the Last Crusade yeah it's all about

01:37:40   like people being brought unstitched by

01:37:42   their greed for eternal life exactly and

01:37:45   I think that there's also something

01:37:46   about the idea of feeling like it's

01:37:48   generous to pass on the world to the

01:37:50   next generation and said like suddenly

01:37:52   you're arguing against sharing I think

01:37:54   in a way when you start talking about

01:37:55   this kind of stuff so it's just an

01:37:58   interesting topic and like I said it's a

01:37:59   thing I've been hesitant about and it's

01:38:01   it's also a thing like I can see in the

01:38:03   in the numbers like on all the

01:38:04   spreadsheets of the videos that I record

01:38:06   that it's like this is a video that has

01:38:07   the most push back since interestingly

01:38:09   the reddit video which still holds the

01:38:11   record for like most pushback of any

01:38:12   video I stopped well though it's done

01:38:13   good viewing figures hasn't yeah though

01:38:15   the viewing figures are good but if you

01:38:16   like looking at the like dislike ratio

01:38:18   it's the second worst compared to the

01:38:20   reddit video which is the worst do you

01:38:23   think maybe also it's because a

01:38:25   different kind of video you made I feel

01:38:28   like your videos have been changing in

01:38:30   tone a little bit lately anyway he like

01:38:32   taken on the average it felt like the

01:38:34   video was it was more of like an opinion

01:38:37   pace there is a thing here that's like

01:38:39   an opinion that I want to change in

01:38:42   people's minds and I'll be very upfront

01:38:45   about it I don't think I was successful

01:38:49   in it in the video I think people should

01:38:52   look at death in the same way that we

01:38:55   look at other diseases I think people

01:38:58   should look at aging in the same way

01:39:01   that we look at other disease that you

01:39:03   didn't couch it that way did you like I

01:39:05   think if you'd Center it on Aging rather

01:39:07   than death it wouldn't have been as like

01:39:09   clickable and as like exciting to have

01:39:11   seen that title in my sub box but I

01:39:14   would have understood the point you are

01:39:15   making better that aging is a disease

01:39:17   because death isn't a disease death is

01:39:19   like a consequence of numerous things

01:39:22   one of which is diseases another one is

01:39:24   jumping in front of a bus another one is

01:39:26   having Wars like death is a consequence

01:39:29   and so framing it around death made it

01:39:32   like a more enticing Pig but I think

01:39:34   maybe that detracted from your argument

01:39:35   of it yeah well it's an interesting

01:39:37   thing like I can see it in the

01:39:38   in the comments we're like these these

01:39:40   arguments are people talk about like

01:39:41   well the universe is going to come to an

01:39:42   end eventually so we're all going to die

01:39:44   so you can never defeat death it's like

01:39:45   well take that like oh yeah that's true

01:39:48   but if I live a billion years like I'm

01:39:49   still gonna consider it a win like you

01:39:51   get hit by a bus like you're still like

01:39:53   it's you know there's going to be

01:39:54   accidents and things I'm imagining six

01:39:56   billion years old CGP grey making video

01:39:59   saying we've got to stop this universe

01:40:00   ending thing now yeah well I mean you

01:40:01   know there's the multiverse people maybe

01:40:03   we can punch through but you know that's

01:40:04   a problem for Way future grey so I don't

01:40:08   know how much people care that much but

01:40:09   like the details behind the scenes are

01:40:11   just that's like kurz cos that convinced

01:40:13   me at the real eleventh hour to do a

01:40:15   video on this topic because he was doing

01:40:19   a video on death and aging as well and

01:40:22   there's a follow-up that's that's coming

01:40:23   out where he's talking about some of the

01:40:24   technology of this stuff which may or

01:40:26   may not be out by the time the podcast

01:40:28   is out and it was really a case that

01:40:31   like when we get together this is a

01:40:32   topic that we we talk about a bunch and

01:40:34   he wanted us to do it as a like we're

01:40:37   both planting a flag here on this topic

01:40:40   and in a way going to come out on a

01:40:43   topic that I know people will regard as

01:40:46   kooky like on a topic that I know will

01:40:50   get a bunch of pushback and I totally

01:40:53   wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for

01:40:55   him but it also added in some

01:40:57   constraints just that it was produced

01:40:58   under a shorter period of time and I

01:41:00   also didn't really want to talk about

01:41:02   the stuff that he was talking about in

01:41:04   his video yeah so he talks about aging

01:41:06   very directly so I was trying not to

01:41:09   talk about heejung so directly but for

01:41:11   people who care about the details those

01:41:13   are some of the details but I could see

01:41:14   like I think I'm missing the mark with

01:41:16   this in the thing that I want to change

01:41:19   in people's minds if you feel like you

01:41:22   missed the mark with her like you know

01:41:23   slightly why you still happy with it

01:41:26   like what's the thing you looked at and

01:41:27   thought yeah it's alright I'm least I'm

01:41:29   glad to say out there so I'm glad it's

01:41:31   out there because I have gotten messages

01:41:35   and I've seen comments from people who

01:41:37   have changed their mind on the topic

01:41:39   right what I would really want is

01:41:40   something like I think some of the

01:41:43   videos on voting that I've done which I

01:41:44   feel like are real like lock slam Bach

01:41:47   cases against this right that but this

01:41:48   topic isn't like that because there's no

01:41:50   arrows and pause

01:41:51   ability theorem about death where you

01:41:53   can just talk through the mathematics of

01:41:55   a thing and it's sort of indisputable

01:41:56   that's why like this is kind of an

01:41:59   opinion piece because there are cultural

01:42:04   arguments around the end of life that

01:42:07   are not resolvable through facts such as

01:42:09   what's just an example I think the

01:42:11   question of like passing on the world to

01:42:14   a next generation you can't get a

01:42:16   correct answer on that in terms of math

01:42:17   there's no way to show definitively that

01:42:21   it is better to or better not to do this

01:42:24   so like I have the feeling that I think

01:42:26   we should push for technology to extend

01:42:32   human life and I think we should push

01:42:34   for it

01:42:35   very hard because my opinion is that

01:42:39   death is a kind of horrific degenerative

01:42:42   disease and this is tremendous amount of

01:42:46   suffering that we can avoid right and

01:42:50   and like continued generations of this

01:42:53   suffering I think is is really bad and I

01:42:57   think there's a kind of cultural

01:42:59   blindness to the suffering of senescence

01:43:02   over time part of the reason why I

01:43:04   really wish that it was like a perfect

01:43:06   slam-dunk case because I want to change

01:43:09   more people's minds on this because

01:43:10   really it's not just about changing

01:43:12   people's minds it's about changing their

01:43:15   right minds hmm I really want anybody

01:43:18   who is in medical school and thinking of

01:43:21   going into medical research I want those

01:43:23   people to be aware if they're thinking

01:43:25   of suffering in the world that aging is

01:43:28   on the board like it's a thing to

01:43:30   consider about what is the suffering

01:43:33   that's in the world right or if

01:43:35   someone's like a very wealthy person

01:43:37   who's looking to fund new projects like

01:43:39   this is a project that has the potential

01:43:43   to reduce a tremendous amount of

01:43:44   suffering so it's partly how I was

01:43:48   convinced to do the video at the last

01:43:50   minute under constraints that I might

01:43:51   normally not do it because it was

01:43:53   presented to me and in terms of like

01:43:54   opportunity costs way like what if the

01:43:59   very person who could come up with this

01:44:01   technology would have been convinced by

01:44:03   your video at the right

01:44:05   and you didn't make it and then you

01:44:07   found yourself on the wrong side of this

01:44:09   cliff like okay well you know what

01:44:11   now you presented me with this Pascal's

01:44:13   wager that I can't get out of my head

01:44:15   I'm going to make this thing and I'm

01:44:17   going to upload it and it's going to

01:44:18   happen so rather than feeding lots and

01:44:21   lots and lots of viewers some fish you

01:44:23   just want to teach the right person to

01:44:25   be a fisherman yes if three of the right

01:44:28   minds are turned even slightly on this

01:44:31   topic I will consider that an incredible

01:44:33   success especially if it affects me

01:44:36   directly yes if you get to live forever

01:44:38   because of that video I think we'll all

01:44:40   thank you gray I won't even take any of

01:44:42   the credit for no good because we'd be

01:44:45   hearing better for a long time if you

01:44:46   did you would be doing about it for a

01:44:48   long time but like I think going back to

01:44:50   your very opening discussion about this

01:44:52   is I feel like I was born at a really

01:44:55   fortunate time maybe everybody feels

01:44:57   this way I don't know but I feel like

01:44:59   I'm I've always been really glad to be

01:45:02   born when I was like I was just old

01:45:04   enough to know a world that didn't

01:45:06   really have computers and technology in

01:45:08   the way that it exists now and I got to

01:45:09   see all of that come online and I feel

01:45:12   like I have a better understanding of

01:45:13   this stuff because of that in a way that

01:45:16   I was always shocked that like my

01:45:17   students who grew up with technology

01:45:19   seem to just know nothing or have no

01:45:21   appreciation for it I always found that

01:45:23   really interesting and counter to the

01:45:25   predictions that the younger generation

01:45:26   would be amazing with technology because

01:45:28   they had grown up with it's like that

01:45:29   turned out to totally not be the case

01:45:30   they're amazing at Facebook but that's a

01:45:33   very different sort of thing

01:45:34   there's a few things that are like that

01:45:36   I feel like I was born it like just

01:45:38   there like I graduated from college at

01:45:39   just the right time like I sort of

01:45:41   missed economic down swings and then I

01:45:44   got into the workforce and I was

01:45:46   fortunate to be just at the right age

01:45:49   and at the right time when YouTube came

01:45:51   around and be able to make a transition

01:45:53   you know it's like three years too early

01:45:56   or too late and you know maybe my life

01:45:57   is very different in these different

01:45:58   ways yeah you've avoided some bad walls

01:46:01   so far yeah exactly it's it's so I feel

01:46:03   very appreciative of this like you're

01:46:06   just in a general way and there is one

01:46:08   final thing that I'm aware of that there

01:46:10   is is this idea about following a bunch

01:46:15   of Technology developments that are

01:46:17   around life extension

01:46:19   just wondering like I have been thinking

01:46:21   about this ever since the human genome

01:46:23   project I think it concluded in 2003 I

01:46:27   think and like the human genome project

01:46:30   the first time the human genome was ever

01:46:33   sequenced like all the letters of

01:46:35   someone's genome were read it took

01:46:37   something like 10 years and a billion

01:46:39   dollars to do and people who know me in

01:46:43   real life over decades know that this is

01:46:46   a thing I have always talked about that

01:46:47   it's fascinating to watch that price and

01:46:51   time go down until now we're at the

01:46:54   point where it's like a couple hundred

01:46:56   bucks and a couple of weeks 20 years

01:46:58   later to get your genome sequenced it's

01:47:00   a thing you can just do in the mail and

01:47:01   I look at that kind of curve and I feel

01:47:04   like it's similar to the computer curves

01:47:07   and I think well genome technology is

01:47:11   one of these things that you need to

01:47:12   have on board in order to do life

01:47:14   extension and just recently there's been

01:47:16   developments in gene editing like things

01:47:19   like CRISPR coming online so now being

01:47:21   able to change genetic material on the

01:47:24   fly is becoming a much cheaper much more

01:47:28   possible thing for a while been really

01:47:30   interested in like when the first gene

01:47:32   therapies became commercially viable

01:47:35   like that stuff is amazing you're like

01:47:37   you're injecting and changing DNA and

01:47:39   living people it's crazy that it's even

01:47:41   possible and so I just I feel like over

01:47:44   the course of my life there have been

01:47:45   roads that are slowly converging towards

01:47:48   this direction but it does have that

01:47:51   question of how fast did they converge

01:47:54   do they converge fast enough or not gray

01:47:58   you were talking before almost like sort

01:48:00   of the people you were hoping would hear

01:48:02   you would be like future medical

01:48:04   researchers who would dedicate

01:48:06   themselves to combating aging rather

01:48:08   than using their intellect and resources

01:48:10   to tackle other things that may be a

01:48:12   more fashionable and things like that

01:48:14   but do you think technology and medical

01:48:16   research is the problem here or are the

01:48:18   hearts and minds that you think are

01:48:19   going to have to be won over politicians

01:48:21   and religious leaders and other cultural

01:48:24   things because it feels like those are

01:48:26   going to be the stumbling blocks I mean

01:48:28   things like CRISPR and all these other

01:48:30   technologies and stem cells and that

01:48:32   the thing that seems to be slowing them

01:48:34   down as much as anything are laws and

01:48:35   regulations and politicians and things

01:48:38   like that when I think about change in

01:48:40   the world

01:48:41   I feel like technology is what you bet

01:48:43   on technology is a kind of unstoppable

01:48:46   force once you get it going and maybe

01:48:50   you can accelerate that through

01:48:52   political means or maybe not but like

01:48:55   the technology root is the 100% sure

01:48:59   root but without a doubt I would love

01:49:03   essentially a NASA Kennedy style we're

01:49:08   going to approach this as a real topic

01:49:11   from the government project like against

01:49:15   senescence like obviously that is a

01:49:17   thing that I would absolutely love is

01:49:19   for a president to get up and say like

01:49:22   oh just like Nixon had in the 70s you

01:49:23   have a war on cancer it's like say we're

01:49:25   gonna have a war on senescence with this

01:49:27   like this is a well understood topic and

01:49:29   we're going to make some hard decisions

01:49:31   about where we're diverting medical

01:49:34   research and we're going to play the

01:49:36   long game here I would absolutely love

01:49:38   that

01:49:39   I just think from my interactions with

01:49:41   people that is almost a total

01:49:43   impossibility in any practical way

01:49:45   I think people push back so hard on this

01:49:49   topic you could never get that to happen

01:49:52   right without some kind of incredible

01:49:54   external force so I don't see the

01:49:57   political path as a fruitful path which

01:50:01   is why I feel like that the

01:50:02   technological path or like the venture

01:50:04   capital path like that's that is the way

01:50:06   to go that's really the only practical

01:50:09   path forward is it just has to be a

01:50:11   thing that becomes technologically

01:50:13   feasible and then society as always will

01:50:15   catch up that's not really what I meant

01:50:17   by the question though it wasn't as much

01:50:18   the government enabling it as stopping

01:50:22   political leaders from blocking it

01:50:24   I feel like technology is like bursting

01:50:27   to get out of the gate with some of this

01:50:28   but they keep getting knocked down by

01:50:30   people saying no no no that's banned no

01:50:33   no that's like you know this is

01:50:34   Frankenstein science and things like

01:50:36   that I don't think you even need the

01:50:39   government to like do a Manhattan

01:50:40   Project of death hmm you just need

01:50:42   governments to say all right we're open

01:50:45   to it show us what

01:50:45   you go this is one case where I am

01:50:47   definitely glad that let's just say not

01:50:52   all the countries in the world are on

01:50:53   the same page

01:50:55   when it comes to this kind of stuff and

01:50:57   some of the most interesting most

01:50:59   cutting-edge biological science is

01:51:02   coming out of China and it seems like

01:51:05   like China is going all in on a bunch of

01:51:10   this genetic technology related to

01:51:12   humans and I really think that if they

01:51:16   get anything that's remotely viable

01:51:19   other countries just immediately have to

01:51:21   fold on it it's actually it's a bit like

01:51:23   a lot of the like self-driving or

01:51:25   automation technology that like

01:51:26   automation is so incredibly economically

01:51:28   valuable that any country that does a

01:51:31   good job of automating anything has a

01:51:34   tremendous advantage over all others and

01:51:36   so the automation just spreads very

01:51:38   quickly like if Canada for some reason

01:51:40   said self-driving cars are 100% legal

01:51:44   across all of Canada and the United

01:51:45   States said no we're not going to allow

01:51:46   it well all of transportation would

01:51:50   divert right it's like the northern half

01:51:52   of the transportation economy would

01:51:54   divert through Canada as much as

01:51:55   possible right like it they'd have such

01:51:56   a tremendous advantage in terms of price

01:51:59   and manufacturing that the United States

01:52:02   couldn't possibly hold out very long and

01:52:04   I suspect that any significant medical

01:52:07   developments along these lines are going

01:52:08   to be the same thing that's like okay

01:52:10   well as long as there's someplace that

01:52:14   this research can occur it's going to

01:52:17   spread outward from that point so I'm

01:52:20   glad that not everybody is as

01:52:22   restrictive as the United States is when

01:52:24   it comes to some of this technology well

01:52:26   if I can put my two cents worth in on

01:52:28   tearing as always to do with naming yeah

01:52:31   senescence is not a word that many

01:52:33   people understand

01:52:34   yeah no senescence is a terrible and

01:52:37   secondly if you're going to use the sort

01:52:39   of the brand or the name of life

01:52:41   extension that might work but for people

01:52:44   of my generation all they can think of

01:52:46   is Vanilla Sky and the fact that the

01:52:48   creepy company that tries to make people

01:52:50   live longer in that's called life

01:52:52   extension and they're like the villains

01:52:54   at night of the film so life extension

01:52:57   is a bit of a tainted term at least for

01:52:59   fans of

01:53:00   maybe which I like very much this really

01:53:01   does come back to you a lot of the

01:53:03   pushback hmm

01:53:04   stuff like senescence is a totally

01:53:07   unknown word but it's also not a great

01:53:09   word there's no freebooting right people

01:53:12   just love it and they're going to spread

01:53:13   it immediately like it's just not good

01:53:16   and yeah like life extension there's

01:53:19   something about this which is just like

01:53:20   polluted in the popular culture which

01:53:23   again is kind of why my feeling about

01:53:26   this video is like do my best job to try

01:53:28   to convince everybody but I feel like

01:53:29   what I'm really trying to do is convince

01:53:32   a few people who might be on the edge or

01:53:35   like you know what that is a thing that

01:53:36   maybe I should think about instead of

01:53:38   other options your point from being

01:53:40   earlier is totally true that there's

01:53:41   some interesting cultural push backs on

01:53:45   this I presume though that if it is

01:53:47   going to be available in your lifetime

01:53:50   Brady that you will be signing up for

01:53:52   the treatment whatever it may be to

01:53:54   extend your life I will consider signing

01:53:57   up if you answer me one more question or

01:54:00   deal with one more issue in my head and

01:54:01   talk it through for me and then I'll be

01:54:03   happy well who you make a convincing

01:54:06   case for you know being anti-death and

01:54:09   it shouldn't be the hardest case to make

01:54:10   sure though because I don't think anyone

01:54:11   really wants to die but can you see any

01:54:15   merit to the opposite case do you see

01:54:17   any usefulness and utility in death

01:54:19   whether its population control I don't

01:54:23   know what the pro-death arguments are

01:54:24   but can you talk me through some of the

01:54:26   pro-death arguments and tell me why

01:54:27   they're flawed I want to be upfront here

01:54:29   that this is the case where very often I

01:54:31   feel like the arguments on the other

01:54:32   side are a bit baffling a lot of them

01:54:35   fall into a thing which i think is a

01:54:36   little bit like when people get into

01:54:38   arguments about the education system

01:54:40   which is the thing that we have done on

01:54:41   this podcast where they're backwards

01:54:44   justifications for the way a thing is I

01:54:48   have found at least personally that it's

01:54:50   it's most useful when talking to people

01:54:52   to frame it in a way where it's like if

01:54:55   this didn't exist would you make it this

01:54:59   way all right we'd like would you bring

01:55:01   it back into existence the way it is

01:55:03   right now it's like that's the way you

01:55:04   should frame it in your mind like I just

01:55:06   think a lot of the deaf stuff is like a

01:55:08   rationalization for the way things are

01:55:11   but gray lots of things we

01:55:13   and do we do get rid of you know we put

01:55:16   up buildings but then we knock them down

01:55:18   for new buildings rather than just

01:55:19   constantly patching them up and we do

01:55:22   build a lot of obsolescence into things

01:55:24   we do and not just to make money by

01:55:26   selling another iPhone in a couple of

01:55:28   years like there is a naturalness to the

01:55:30   way we design and do things for it not

01:55:32   necessarily last forever one of the

01:55:34   arguments that comes up a bunch which I

01:55:37   can I can see where people are coming

01:55:38   from is the idea that if you have people

01:55:42   living a really long time Society will

01:55:44   never change

01:55:44   and this to me is built on an assumption

01:55:47   that I can see why people think it but I

01:55:50   I just don't agree with it this idea

01:55:53   that society changes because people with

01:55:56   old ideas die and younger people with

01:56:01   new ideas replace them right now if that

01:56:04   was 100% true then yes like maybe this

01:56:07   is a concern like society never changes

01:56:11   or adapts to different situations beat

01:56:13   ignites

01:56:14   yeah it's like it stagnates and you end

01:56:17   up with some kind of like some kind of

01:56:19   civilization that you'd visit on Star

01:56:20   Trek right words like oh nothing nothing

01:56:21   has changed for 20 thousand years on

01:56:23   this planet right and we're just doing

01:56:24   the same stuff all the time

01:56:25   yeah but I just agree like I just think

01:56:27   that that is a false assumption and I

01:56:31   also think it's an assumption that it's

01:56:32   just not borne out by the data like if

01:56:35   you look at people's voting patterns

01:56:37   people's geography is correlated way

01:56:39   better with how they vote for example

01:56:41   then their age is correlated with how

01:56:44   they vote and I think we have seen

01:56:48   enough things in society where people do

01:56:52   change their minds because things are

01:56:55   better ideas like the most recent

01:56:58   example that's it's always used as the

01:57:00   standard go to cases is simply gay

01:57:03   marriage rights in the United States on

01:57:04   the scale of societal change that

01:57:07   happened relatively quickly and it seems

01:57:11   to happen because people change their

01:57:14   mind on this topic through exposure it

01:57:17   didn't happen because there was a

01:57:19   massive die-off of old people between

01:57:22   the 90s and the 2000s that's not the

01:57:26   reason that

01:57:27   changed it changed because people change

01:57:30   their minds so I think people are able

01:57:34   to change their minds at any age and it

01:57:36   also ignores that implicit in this idea

01:57:38   of radical life extension is the idea

01:57:41   that the whole thing that we're trying

01:57:43   to achieve here is maintaining your

01:57:47   health at an older age so it's not like

01:57:50   the old people are still going to be the

01:57:52   chief executive of SpaceX but have no

01:57:54   new ideas they're gonna have a young

01:57:55   dynamic brain that's still gonna be

01:57:57   having new ideas all the time and like

01:57:58   in a perfect world you're sort of at the

01:58:01   level you are in your 20s or 30s or

01:58:03   whatever so that's not like there's a

01:58:05   whole generation of oldies that are just

01:58:06   getting older and older and older but

01:58:08   just not dying the argument seems to be

01:58:10   that where we're aiming for the genies

01:58:12   curse where we just get older and older

01:58:14   and older forever and like who wants

01:58:15   that nobody wants that yeah this is why

01:58:17   I get a little bit like excised on this

01:58:19   topic is that is I think that through

01:58:22   might be a bit harsh but through a kind

01:58:24   of carelessness of intent we actually

01:58:27   accidentally create that world because

01:58:30   if we're constantly spending our efforts

01:58:34   on solving medical problems that are

01:58:38   further towards end-of-life like what we

01:58:39   end up doing is what has happened that

01:58:41   we do extend life but we extend old-age

01:58:46   and so like we're pushing up life

01:58:50   expansion but where we're not increasing

01:58:52   what is sometimes called the the health

01:58:54   span of life very dramatically like

01:58:56   you're increasing the total amount of

01:58:58   time that you're alive but that is

01:59:00   increasing faster than the healthy

01:59:03   portion of your life he's increasing

01:59:05   sometimes you know when we joke about

01:59:07   like Oh CGP grey is dictator and I'm

01:59:08   like you don't want me as dictator

01:59:10   because I would do things that would be

01:59:11   deeply unpopular and this is one of

01:59:13   those cases where I feel like I would

01:59:16   pull research money and effort off of

01:59:19   diseases that kill people in their old

01:59:22   age and put it towards senescence

01:59:25   research and like that would be a deeply

01:59:27   unpopular decision but I do think that's

01:59:30   overall that's a better decision to make

01:59:33   so for people who don't know that's

01:59:34   research to stop aging yeah sorry

01:59:37   research to stop aging so yeah I just

01:59:39   think that there is there is

01:59:41   way that we unintentionally create the

01:59:43   the thing that is the argument that

01:59:45   people are having they'd like oh you end

01:59:46   up with the society that's just full of

01:59:49   oldsters and hardly has any young people

01:59:52   and becomes really stagnant and it's

01:59:54   like well we can do that by accident

01:59:56   yeah you can do that if you were Japan

01:59:59   but like the whole

01:59:59   but like the whole

02:00:00   point is with it like that's not what

02:00:01   we're trying to do all right then well

02:00:03   at this stage I think we're getting well

02:00:05   into old age so we are getting well into

02:00:07   old age we can follow this up at some

02:00:09   point but the podcast has been going on

02:00:11   for quite a while yes it is late in the

02:00:12   evening here I have to go on a plane

02:00:15   relatively shortly I know I feel a bit

02:00:18   bad about that I'm sorry but I hope your

02:00:19   flight goes well I have no idea where

02:00:21   you're going or what you're doing but

02:00:22   I'm sure I'll find out in due course I'm

02:00:24   an international man of mystery Brady

02:00:26   yeah that's what I am