Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show but

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:07 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today I

00:00:11 ◼   ► wanted to talk about something that I'm

00:00:14 ◼   ► sort of having to navigate with workouts

00:00:16 ◼   ► plus plus that seemed like an

00:00:17 ◼   ► interesting discussion to have here and

00:00:19 ◼   ► a topic that is kind of a perennial one

00:00:22 ◼   ► one that we've talked about many time

00:00:23 ◼   ► around business and pricing and that

00:00:26 ◼   ► sort of thing and so for a little bit of

00:00:29 ◼   ► background so workouts plus plus is an

00:00:31 ◼   ► app that I released right around this

00:00:33 ◼   ► time last year whose primary purpose is

00:00:37 ◼   ► to create a fully customizable workout

00:00:41 ◼   ► experience on the Apple watch and then

00:00:44 ◼   ► on the iPhone to provide a much more

00:00:47 ◼   ► detailed analysis and display view of

00:00:50 ◼   ► all of the workout data you've ever

00:00:52 ◼   ► collected with an Apple watch where ever

00:00:54 ◼   ► that came from whether it's in work

00:00:55 ◼   ► aspis plus or somewhere else and it's an

00:00:59 ◼   ► app that I made because of a few

00:01:03 ◼   ► shortcomings or things that I didn't

00:01:05 ◼   ► like about the system app which is

00:01:07 ◼   ► typically where a lot of my ideas come

00:01:08 ◼   ► from where like there's an existing

00:01:10 ◼   ► thing that I doesn't quite work the way

00:01:13 ◼   ► I like so I wanted to make it better I

00:01:15 ◼   ► wanted to improve it I had some ideas

00:01:17 ◼   ► for how I liked it and so that's why I

00:01:18 ◼   ► started it and it is an app that I I use

00:01:23 ◼   ► on a very regular basis you know five or

00:01:25 ◼   ► six times a week at least I used this

00:01:28 ◼   ► app and so it's very tailored to to what

00:01:31 ◼   ► I you know true the way that I think in

00:01:33 ◼   ► the way that I work and I'm in the

00:01:34 ◼   ► process now I'm finishing a pretty

00:01:36 ◼   ► substantial update to it which will be

00:01:39 ◼   ► launching hopefully in about three weeks

00:01:41 ◼   ► as you're listening to this which is

00:01:44 ◼   ► kind of bearing down on me and like now

00:01:46 ◼   ► that I have like but two weeks left of

00:01:48 ◼   ► coding too you can get all the last bugs

00:01:49 ◼   ► out but in about two weeks I'm going to

00:01:51 ◼   ► launch a big update for it and so

00:01:54 ◼   ► naturally you start to think about you

00:01:56 ◼   ► know what do you need to do with this

00:01:57 ◼   ► new update are you gonna make any

00:01:58 ◼   ► changes it's a good opportunity to kind

00:02:01 ◼   ► of reflect on how the app has done and

00:02:04 ◼   ► where might you know Murr might go in

00:02:05 ◼   ► the future

00:02:06 ◼   ► so in the initial version the version

00:02:09 ◼   ► that I last I launched last December

00:02:13 ◼   ► the app was paid it was a five dollar

00:02:15 ◼   ► app and my reasoning for that initially

00:02:19 ◼   ► was coming from a place that it is a

00:02:21 ◼   ► very focused sort of power user niche

00:02:25 ◼   ► kind of a thing like the bill a you have

00:02:27 ◼   ► to have an Apple watch for it to be

00:02:29 ◼   ► useful period

00:02:30 ◼   ► so that's reducing my potential audience

00:02:33 ◼   ► to you know down quite dramatically

00:02:36 ◼   ► I think am i for my analytics for

00:02:38 ◼   ► health-conscious people right around

00:02:40 ◼   ► maybe ten percent of them have an Apple

00:02:42 ◼   ► watch so of iPhone users I mean so

00:02:46 ◼   ► that's pretty small and then you need to

00:02:49 ◼   ► want more than you get out of the

00:02:51 ◼   ► built-in app so it seems like well

00:02:52 ◼   ► there's not that many people who might

00:02:54 ◼   ► use this so like maybe I'll make it paid

00:02:55 ◼   ► like maybe I'll take that approach and

00:02:58 ◼   ► also it seemed like it was a fairly it's

00:02:59 ◼   ► fairly premium in the sense of it was a

00:03:01 ◼   ► it's it's trying to do more it's

00:03:03 ◼   ► allowing you if you really care about

00:03:05 ◼   ► this kind of stuff you can tweak and

00:03:07 ◼   ► adjust and to do a lot of things and so

00:03:09 ◼   ► I was like let's try that and the short

00:03:12 ◼   ► version is that it didn't do very well

00:03:15 ◼   ► at all I was I'm about to get into

00:03:18 ◼   ► exactly how poorly it did before I do

00:03:21 ◼   ► that I always want to just sort of

00:03:22 ◼   ► disclaimer things that anytime you hear

00:03:23 ◼   ► people talk about like sales numbers or

00:03:26 ◼   ► things like that

00:03:28 ◼   ► it's always good to take with a grain of

00:03:29 ◼   ► salt that the the two types of numbers

00:03:31 ◼   ► you tend to hear are when things go very

00:03:33 ◼   ► poorly or when things go unusually an

00:03:36 ◼   ► exceptionally good so just something to

00:03:39 ◼   ► keep em behind that results not typical

00:03:42 ◼   ► like it's just instructive insofar as

00:03:45 ◼   ► helping sort of couch where I'm gonna go

00:03:47 ◼   ► with this next but in the first year of

00:03:50 ◼   ► the app's life the app made $16,000

00:03:53 ◼   ► which is not you know nothing to sneeze

00:03:56 ◼   ► that is a good is a good run for an iOS

00:03:59 ◼   ► app in many ways but as you know you

00:04:02 ◼   ► would if you would as you would expect

00:04:04 ◼   ► if I had made fifty percent of that in

00:04:06 ◼   ► the first month and has settled down

00:04:08 ◼   ► dramatically since since then - at this

00:04:11 ◼   ► point it's not uncommon to have a day

00:04:13 ◼   ► where it's like zero or one sales is

00:04:16 ◼   ► starting to become pretty common and I

00:04:19 ◼   ► think that's a pattern that is very

00:04:21 ◼   ► common with a paid app and just with

00:04:23 ◼   ► apps in general in the App Store that

00:04:25 ◼   ► there's this pattern where

00:04:26 ◼   ► you might get a little bit of interest

00:04:27 ◼   ► upfront and then it just falls off and

00:04:29 ◼   ► this happen particular like it's

00:04:31 ◼   ► competing against such a wide variety of

00:04:34 ◼   ► things that in retrospect is probably

00:04:37 ◼   ► not uncommon not unexpected that it's

00:04:39 ◼   ► very hard to justify that someone would

00:04:41 ◼   ► you know pay a substantial are they so

00:04:44 ◼   ► substantial in the AppStore sense amount

00:04:46 ◼   ► of money for it and so from that

00:04:49 ◼   ► perspective I kind of view it

00:04:51 ◼   ► financially as a bit of a flop now it's

00:04:54 ◼   ► not something that I think is

00:04:55 ◼   ► financially very very viable at that

00:04:58 ◼   ► point and if anything it's kind of silly

00:05:00 ◼   ► that I continue to work on it except for

00:05:02 ◼   ► the fact that I use it every single day

00:05:05 ◼   ► and I really like it and I have the

00:05:08 ◼   ► benefit I suppose of you know my virtue

00:05:10 ◼   ► of being self-employed and be able to

00:05:12 ◼   ► make these kind of choices that don't

00:05:13 ◼   ► necessarily make sense financially I can

00:05:16 ◼   ► just keep working on it because I like

00:05:17 ◼   ► it because I enjoy it and I can you know

00:05:19 ◼   ► support myself with my other apps but

00:05:23 ◼   ► that brings me to version 2 where I

00:05:26 ◼   ► think is and I'm been I've been toying

00:05:29 ◼   ► with a variety of things it seemed

00:05:31 ◼   ► obvious that I should definitely make

00:05:32 ◼   ► the app free inside in some ways because

00:05:34 ◼   ► I think that's just the app store where

00:05:37 ◼   ► we find ourselves now that like the paid

00:05:39 ◼   ► apps are become theirs you have to be

00:05:42 ◼   ► doing something else I think for that to

00:05:44 ◼   ► be a viable situation like very almost

00:05:47 ◼   ► all of the you know the app store is

00:05:49 ◼   ► free with something else but when I when

00:05:53 ◼   ► I decide maybe that decision then it's

00:05:54 ◼   ► like you start to get into okay should I

00:05:55 ◼   ► have ads it should have some kind of you

00:05:57 ◼   ► know purchase or subscription situation

00:05:59 ◼   ► and the more I thought about it for this

00:06:01 ◼   ► app the more I kind of decided that

00:06:03 ◼   ► maybe this would be an interesting

00:06:04 ◼   ► opportunity to rather then go down the

00:06:08 ◼   ► road of trying to work out some method

00:06:11 ◼   ► to extract you know money from these

00:06:15 ◼   ► customers who are put these potential

00:06:18 ◼   ► customers even like the user base is

00:06:19 ◼   ► incredibly small now and any amount I

00:06:22 ◼   ► get from them is I still couldn't be

00:06:24 ◼   ► somewhat in material unless I was able

00:06:26 ◼   ► to grow the audience so and anytime any

00:06:30 ◼   ► of those scenarios that I came up with

00:06:31 ◼   ► by putting ads into it it don't really

00:06:33 ◼   ► work because ads tend to work well in

00:06:34 ◼   ► apps that she will go to on a regular

00:06:36 ◼   ► basis like several times a day that

00:06:38 ◼   ► become a more habitual app whereas an

00:06:40 ◼   ► app like this is the thing that you

00:06:42 ◼   ► might open maybe once a day at best

00:06:44 ◼   ► probably more likely once a week on the

00:06:48 ◼   ► iPhone side just because that's the

00:06:50 ◼   ► nature of how often do you really need

00:06:52 ◼   ► to do like deep dives into your past

00:06:54 ◼   ► workout history and I also just kind of

00:06:58 ◼   ► thought like you know that's it's if I

00:07:00 ◼   ► don't really like the feeling of ads in

00:07:03 ◼   ► general like I know they're an

00:07:04 ◼   ► absolutely necessary situation but the

00:07:06 ◼   ► one that fit my favorite and then so

00:07:08 ◼   ► it's like okay so I do some some kind of

00:07:09 ◼   ► subscription some kind of a net purchase

00:07:10 ◼   ► some kind of situation where like well

00:07:12 ◼   ► you get the first X you know you some

00:07:15 ◼   ► you can see the last week's worth of

00:07:16 ◼   ► data but you can't see more unless you

00:07:17 ◼   ► pay and you're putting up a lot of

00:07:19 ◼   ► barriers and pain points in my app and I

00:07:22 ◼   ► just I decided that I think what I'm

00:07:24 ◼   ► gonna try instead it's kind of you the

00:07:28 ◼   ► situation I have that by virtue of

00:07:30 ◼   ► having diversified extensively in the

00:07:32 ◼   ► past that I am now in a position where I

00:07:37 ◼   ► can view my my existing business that

00:07:43 ◼   ► all my other apps as a venture

00:07:45 ◼   ► capitalist who is able to finance the

00:07:47 ◼   ► development of apps that can just go out

00:07:50 ◼   ► and see how big of an audience they can

00:07:52 ◼   ► get they can garner and worry less about

00:07:55 ◼   ► the immediate return and outcome and

00:07:58 ◼   ► squeezing every penny out of the app in

00:08:00 ◼   ► the near term I can as I can and so I

00:08:02 ◼   ► think I'm just gonna make the app

00:08:03 ◼   ► totally free no in-app purchases no ads

00:08:05 ◼   ► no barriers or pain points no nothing to

00:08:08 ◼   ► try and create like a point of

00:08:09 ◼   ► hesitation that if someone is

00:08:10 ◼   ► potentially interested in this they can

00:08:12 ◼   ► go and get it and try it you try the

00:08:14 ◼   ► full experience and like the only kind

00:08:16 ◼   ► of vague monetization II kind of thing

00:08:18 ◼   ► I'm gonna do is have links to my other

00:08:20 ◼   ► apps which are related and potentially

00:08:23 ◼   ► interesting to that person in the app

00:08:24 ◼   ► just as a that seems like a reasonable

00:08:27 ◼   ► best practice kind of a thing but not

00:08:29 ◼   ► even really expecting to make much from

00:08:31 ◼   ► that but anyway like it's kind of this

00:08:33 ◼   ► interesting model because I've never

00:08:34 ◼   ► launched an app that had no or like it's

00:08:37 ◼   ► just an app like this where I have no

00:08:39 ◼   ► immediate like financial benefit it's

00:08:42 ◼   ► entirely a a goal or a play of seeing

00:08:46 ◼   ► how big of an interest I could get in

00:08:47 ◼   ► this app when if I take away all of the

00:08:50 ◼   ► potential limiters all the potential

00:08:52 ◼   ► things that might get in to get in the

00:08:54 ◼   ► way of its growth and then just see and

00:08:56 ◼   ► like in a weird way there's a very small

00:08:59 ◼   ► chance that it goes anywhere there's

00:09:00 ◼   ► still a very most the most likely

00:09:02 ◼   ► scenario is that even completely free no

00:09:04 ◼   ► barriers no one no one downloads it or

00:09:06 ◼   ► uses it and though in the long term but

00:09:09 ◼   ► I can potentially rather than having a

00:09:11 ◼   ► very high chance of having having like a

00:09:14 ◼   ► very good chance of having a very small

00:09:16 ◼   ► audience I have a very small chance of

00:09:17 ◼   ► having a potentially big audience so I

00:09:19 ◼   ► don't know is that crazy I'm probably

00:09:23 ◼   ► not it's just it's hard to think about

00:09:25 ◼   ► like it's hard for people like us who

00:09:28 ◼   ► don't usually do future bets on growth

00:09:33 ◼   ► and figure in and thinking like me we'll

00:09:36 ◼   ► make money on this someday in the future

00:09:37 ◼   ► like that's not something that we as

00:09:39 ◼   ► indie iOS developers usually do and that

00:09:44 ◼   ► is how a large part of the industry

00:09:45 ◼   ► works it's probably worth considering

00:09:48 ◼   ► that you know as you kind of mentioned

00:09:49 ◼   ► you kind of said it was like analogous

00:09:51 ◼   ► to a like a VC kind of model with the

00:09:55 ◼   ► disclaimer that neither of us were

00:09:56 ◼   ► venture capitalists I think that's not a

00:09:58 ◼   ► bad idea it's not about metaphor you

00:10:00 ◼   ► know in the VC world they know if you

00:10:03 ◼   ► just have a big audience and more

00:10:05 ◼   ► important if you have growth that seems

00:10:07 ◼   ► to be consistent or accelerating there

00:10:10 ◼   ► will be a way for that to be valuable

00:10:12 ◼   ► like you know even if it isn't

00:10:14 ◼   ► immediately apparent even if you defer

00:10:16 ◼   ► that value until later and sometimes you

00:10:20 ◼   ► know in many cases getting that growth

00:10:21 ◼   ► is so important and so valuable that

00:10:24 ◼   ► they intentionally defer any kind of

00:10:26 ◼   ► modernization just to leave the doors as

00:10:29 ◼   ► wide open as possible for people to come

00:10:30 ◼   ► in and then they figure you know later

00:10:33 ◼   ► down the road this can be worth

00:10:34 ◼   ► something to somebody whether it's

00:10:36 ◼   ► direct or whether it's then being sold

00:10:38 ◼   ► to someone else and then they figure out

00:10:39 ◼   ► how to monetize it or if it's if it

00:10:42 ◼   ► never needs to be directly monetize at

00:10:43 ◼   ► all you know there's lots of situations

00:10:44 ◼   ► where where something has value to the

00:10:48 ◼   ► people whom who make it or who fund it

00:10:50 ◼   ► even if it never collects direct revenue

00:10:53 ◼   ► you know there's all sorts of you know

00:10:55 ◼   ► side benefits things can have or

00:10:57 ◼   ► strategic benefits to some to some

00:10:59 ◼   ► bigger picture that's not a bad idea and

00:11:02 ◼   ► it's also not a bad idea to say I don't

00:11:05 ◼   ► even know what

00:11:06 ◼   ► the outcome could be but you know since

00:11:09 ◼   ► it's already you know you've already

00:11:11 ◼   ► made some money off of it

00:11:12 ◼   ► the and that money has already dried up

00:11:14 ◼   ► basically so it's like it on some level

00:11:17 ◼   ► it's like well you know what are your

00:11:19 ◼   ► options here you know like like you know

00:11:22 ◼   ► you ran through the challenges of you

00:11:25 ◼   ► know this particular app workouts plus

00:11:26 ◼   ► plus like it's not there's not a lot of

00:11:29 ◼   ► places it can be easily monetized in a

00:11:32 ◼   ► way that are like in ways are likely to

00:11:33 ◼   ► succeed because it is you know mostly

00:11:36 ◼   ► used on the watch it's hardly ever

00:11:38 ◼   ► launched on the phone you know that

00:11:40 ◼   ► there's that's just gonna be really

00:11:42 ◼   ► really hard to monetize it in a

00:11:44 ◼   ► meaningful way

00:11:45 ◼   ► so I think you you're kind of in a

00:11:48 ◼   ► corner here that I don't really think

00:11:50 ◼   ► you have a lot of other options but

00:11:52 ◼   ► that's not necessarily a bad thing

00:11:53 ◼   ► because it's it would be kind of freeing

00:11:56 ◼   ► to just let go of the idea of direct

00:11:59 ◼   ► monetization with this app and just see

00:12:01 ◼   ► what happens I mean you have enough apps

00:12:04 ◼   ► and enough experience out there that you

00:12:07 ◼   ► know the kinds of user numbers that you

00:12:10 ◼   ► can get when something has no boundaries

00:12:11 ◼   ► like whether it's one it's totally free

00:12:13 ◼   ► or when it's free with in-app purchase

00:12:15 ◼   ► like you've seen those numbers and

00:12:17 ◼   ► you've seen what it gets when it's paid

00:12:19 ◼   ► up front too and I think you have enough

00:12:22 ◼   ► experience and data to be able to make

00:12:25 ◼   ► that kind of decision and I think

00:12:26 ◼   ► something that it it's a weird thing to

00:12:28 ◼   ► say but I feel like the thing that makes

00:12:31 ◼   ► me want to do this most is that I've

00:12:34 ◼   ► never done it before and something that

00:12:38 ◼   ► I have found time and time again like in

00:12:40 ◼   ► the many many years but it's at almost

00:12:42 ◼   ► nine years of being an iOS developer

00:12:44 ◼   ► like is that the time that I've things

00:12:51 ◼   ► that I've like learned from the learn

00:12:53 ◼   ► from the most or expanded my business

00:12:55 ◼   ► the most have tended to be the things

00:12:57 ◼   ► and the times when I'm doing something

00:12:59 ◼   ► new where I'm doing something that I

00:13:01 ◼   ► haven't tried before

00:13:03 ◼   ► because otherwise I imagine like the

00:13:06 ◼   ► problem I run I so often will fall into

00:13:09 ◼   ► I think is that I am doing things the

00:13:13 ◼   ► same way that I've done them before and

00:13:15 ◼   ► sometimes that's good like there's a

00:13:17 ◼   ► like a good lesson to be learned or

00:13:18 ◼   ► there's a best

00:13:20 ◼   ► that you can pull from something but

00:13:22 ◼   ► very often I think that I get stuck on

00:13:26 ◼   ► like well I did this I did this this way

00:13:28 ◼   ► before so let me do it that way again

00:13:31 ◼   ► and that is probably in the long term

00:13:35 ◼   ► like like the death of my business like

00:13:38 ◼   ► that if I keep trying to just do the

00:13:40 ◼   ► same thing in the same way even it can

00:13:42 ◼   ► be effective in this year in the short

00:13:43 ◼   ► term like I kind of get nervous and they

00:13:45 ◼   ► in this fun and funny way like as soon

00:13:46 ◼   ► as I had this idea then I was like

00:13:48 ◼   ► sending those like you know what if I

00:13:49 ◼   ► just make it totally free and not even

00:13:53 ◼   ► though like the fact that like in many

00:13:54 ◼   ► ways that is like foolish like in the in

00:13:59 ◼   ► the I'm you know I'm giving up a there's

00:14:00 ◼   ► a definite downside in a financial cost

00:14:03 ◼   ► like I have a reasonable expectation

00:14:05 ◼   ► that like if I'd you know have a big a

00:14:07 ◼   ► big update and I've you know get a

00:14:08 ◼   ► little press and do my little things

00:14:10 ◼   ► that I would have a nice couple of weeks

00:14:12 ◼   ► of income but it's the understanding

00:14:13 ◼   ► that like maybe it's better to not worry

00:14:17 ◼   ► about that and because I've never done

00:14:19 ◼   ► had that perspective like even that's

00:14:21 ◼   ► like that's just exciting and

00:14:23 ◼   ► interesting to me in a funny way and I

00:14:26 ◼   ► think it reminds me of the importance of

00:14:29 ◼   ► not being complacent with anything like

00:14:31 ◼   ► to just always be looking for

00:14:33 ◼   ► opportunities to try and like in this

00:14:35 ◼   ► case like it's a good thing to try

00:14:37 ◼   ► because it's not doing anything for me

00:14:39 ◼   ► now like I have this thing that maybe

00:14:42 ◼   ► has a potential upside or potential

00:14:43 ◼   ► interest somewhere down the road that's

00:14:46 ◼   ► never going to be realized in its

00:14:47 ◼   ► current state so let's try it and see

00:14:49 ◼   ► and you know maybe it'll be a podcast in

00:14:51 ◼   ► a couple of weeks or a couple of months

00:14:53 ◼   ► where I'm like that was a terrible idea

00:14:54 ◼   ► and then I can change course or you

00:14:58 ◼   ► decide what I want to do at that point

00:14:59 ◼   ► but it's weird in a weird way it's

00:15:01 ◼   ► almost like whenever I encounter a place

00:15:03 ◼   ► that's like I've never done that before

00:15:05 ◼   ► that makes me like doubly and perhaps

00:15:07 ◼   ► slightly irrationally interested in

00:15:09 ◼   ► trying it just so that I can finally I

00:15:12 ◼   ► can add that data point into my

00:15:14 ◼   ► collection of other data points and kind

00:15:16 ◼   ► of be able to make a better decision for

00:15:18 ◼   ► whatever my next step is whatever that

00:15:19 ◼   ► may be well there's also there's other

00:15:21 ◼   ► value here too like you know for direct

00:15:25 ◼   ► value like you know you're getting these

00:15:26 ◼   ► users and you know you mentioned earlier

00:15:28 ◼   ► that you you know some of them will buy

00:15:29 ◼   ► your other app so that's that's some

00:15:30 ◼   ► value right there you're going to get a

00:15:32 ◼   ► certain number of people in from from

00:15:33 ◼   ► any kind

00:15:33 ◼   ► press you get more of them we'll stick

00:15:36 ◼   ► around because there's no barriers I'm

00:15:38 ◼   ► sticking around so then you'll have even

00:15:40 ◼   ► more people looking at your other apps

00:15:41 ◼   ► you will you'll have some spillover

00:15:43 ◼   ► press that were people who see the press

00:15:44 ◼   ► will look at your other apps so there's

00:15:46 ◼   ► all direct benefits there also you are

00:15:48 ◼   ► not talking about it on a podcast

00:15:49 ◼   ► episode you're probably going to talk

00:15:51 ◼   ► about it again on at least one more

00:15:52 ◼   ► podcast episode we get paid to do these

00:15:55 ◼   ► podcast episodes so here so you're

00:15:57 ◼   ► you're generating you know good topics

00:15:59 ◼   ► for content for the things you do for

00:16:02 ◼   ► other ways you get paid and then if new

00:16:05 ◼   ► listeners come in because they wanted to

00:16:08 ◼   ► hear how that turned out maybe you write

00:16:10 ◼   ► a blog post about it

00:16:11 ◼   ► right and so then and you know and you

00:16:12 ◼   ► don't have ads in your site but then

00:16:13 ◼   ► those people might come to the podcast

00:16:15 ◼   ► where we have ads which I'm about to do

00:16:17 ◼   ► in a minute and they might stick around

00:16:19 ◼   ► so then not only where did you get paid

00:16:22 ◼   ► for that episode where we talked about

00:16:23 ◼   ► this but then if they stick around we

00:16:25 ◼   ► can raise our rates down the road and

00:16:27 ◼   ► then that person has delivered you value

00:16:29 ◼   ► down the road of increased money per per

00:16:33 ◼   ► podcast episode so like there's a lot of

00:16:35 ◼   ► like network effect here that builds

00:16:37 ◼   ► over time also next time you have a new

00:16:40 ◼   ► app to launch you have a place you can

00:16:42 ◼   ► promote that where there's more people

00:16:44 ◼   ► listening both the podcast will have

00:16:46 ◼   ► more listeners and then you can even do

00:16:47 ◼   ► an in-app promotion in workouts plus

00:16:50 ◼   ► plus which has this now massive free

00:16:52 ◼   ► audience and and then you can sell

00:16:55 ◼   ► another app so like there is a lot of

00:16:58 ◼   ► network benefit here to you even if that

00:17:00 ◼   ► one app itself does not directly make

00:17:03 ◼   ► the money it can cause this network

00:17:07 ◼   ► effect to happen but I know this is not

00:17:09 ◼   ► the parties of network effect it can

00:17:10 ◼   ► cause these side effects to happen that

00:17:13 ◼   ► themselves can bring you value yeah and

00:17:16 ◼   ► I think what's liberating in a weird way

00:17:18 ◼   ► about that is it's I think it's so easy

00:17:21 ◼   ► to and maybe it certainly it's different

00:17:24 ◼   ► I appreciate that I am in a privileged

00:17:26 ◼   ► position to have other apps and other

00:17:29 ◼   ► what other means of support that allow

00:17:32 ◼   ► me to do things like this like it's

00:17:33 ◼   ► probably fair to say just like yep I

00:17:35 ◼   ► totally get that the the privileged

00:17:36 ◼   ► position that that is that if this was

00:17:38 ◼   ► my first app this would probably not be

00:17:41 ◼   ► a great idea

00:17:43 ◼   ► but because it isn't because I do have

00:17:46 ◼   ► this opportunity like it's interesting -

00:17:49 ◼   ► yeah it's like as you're saying like

00:17:50 ◼   ► there's all of these other things that

00:17:52 ◼   ► these other potential avenues for

00:17:54 ◼   ► benefit that I typically close myself

00:17:58 ◼   ► off to because I get to folk too

00:18:01 ◼   ► short-sighted that and in a weird way

00:18:05 ◼   ► like I mean it's so easy I think for

00:18:07 ◼   ► myself and I mean generally I'd say like

00:18:09 ◼   ► the surf TV more indie development

00:18:10 ◼   ► community to kind of look down our noses

00:18:12 ◼   ► at the more like MBA business II folks

00:18:17 ◼   ► who will probably honestly have a better

00:18:19 ◼   ► understanding of all those kind of

00:18:20 ◼   ► ciliary benefits that you were just

00:18:22 ◼   ► talking about like all of these other

00:18:23 ◼   ► effects and things that maybe they

00:18:26 ◼   ► quantify maybe they don't but they have

00:18:28 ◼   ► a better understanding of the fact that

00:18:29 ◼   ► it's like don't worry you know just

00:18:31 ◼   ► worrying about what I'm going to the

00:18:33 ◼   ► income I'm gonna get from an app in the

00:18:35 ◼   ► near term is almost certainly not to

00:18:38 ◼   ► take me to account the full the full

00:18:40 ◼   ► picture or the full understanding of

00:18:41 ◼   ► like what possibly could be coming down

00:18:43 ◼   ► the road and so as like independent

00:18:46 ◼   ► developers you might have to be shooting

00:18:47 ◼   ► ourselves in the foot as a results

00:18:49 ◼   ► because we're so focused on this or like

00:18:52 ◼   ► what's gonna happen now and maybe when

00:18:55 ◼   ► you're starting out and you're trying to

00:18:56 ◼   ► launch your first app like that initial

00:18:57 ◼   ► burst of income and having a sustainable

00:18:59 ◼   ► living and paying for medical insurance

00:19:01 ◼   ► and like all of that yet it's like it's

00:19:03 ◼   ► much more important but understanding

00:19:05 ◼   ► that that's not the only way to live is

00:19:08 ◼   ► probably you know it's like it's

00:19:10 ◼   ► definitely better to have that kind of a

00:19:12 ◼   ► bigger breadth of perspective and maybe

00:19:15 ◼   ► try and learn from another world like I

00:19:17 ◼   ► tend to I think I like consciously and

00:19:21 ◼   ► unconsciously I like look down on BC

00:19:23 ◼   ► apps in a weird way like it's and that

00:19:25 ◼   ► kind of any kind of any time I find

00:19:28 ◼   ► myself being kind of you know elitist or

00:19:31 ◼   ► biased or whatever you like you know

00:19:33 ◼   ► sort of having a prejudice against

00:19:35 ◼   ► something like that like that's probably

00:19:37 ◼   ► not a good thing right like that's in in

00:19:39 ◼   ► general in life like being prejudiced

00:19:40 ◼   ► just sort of without basis is not good

00:19:43 ◼   ► so maybe like it's good to stretch

00:19:47 ◼   ► ourselves good to think about these side

00:19:48 ◼   ► of things and try and learn and you know

00:19:51 ◼   ► learned learned from the result we

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00:21:21 ◼   ► you so much to Linode for supporting

00:21:23 ◼   ► this show so I want to talk a little bit

00:21:25 ◼   ► about an example I have from this from

00:21:28 ◼   ► this world that I'm developing is my

00:21:31 ◼   ► podcast mp3 encoder called forecast this

00:21:35 ◼   ► is I've gone through similar thoughts as

00:21:36 ◼   ► you with with like what I should do with

00:21:39 ◼   ► monetizing this and you know this is a

00:21:42 ◼   ► this is a specialized tool it's it's a

00:21:45 ◼   ► Mac podcast mp3 encoder that lets you

00:21:48 ◼   ► make chapters and stuff in them and so

00:21:50 ◼   ► this is this is going to have a very

00:21:52 ◼   ► small audience you know I think I'd be

00:21:54 ◼   ► lucky to have hundreds of people using

00:21:57 ◼   ► it certainly not more than that and if

00:22:00 ◼   ► you you know do some quick math like how

00:22:03 ◼   ► much do you have to charge money to make

00:22:05 ◼   ► meaningful money when your customer base

00:22:06 ◼   ► is that small like I did like you know

00:22:09 ◼   ► quick math

00:22:10 ◼   ► suppose I charge 50 bucks for the app

00:22:12 ◼   ► which is I think decent for like a a Mac

00:22:14 ◼   ► a good Mac utility so suppose it's 50

00:22:16 ◼   ► bucks if I get 500 customers which is

00:22:19 ◼   ► way higher than I think I will get

00:22:21 ◼   ► especially if it cost 50 bucks that's

00:22:24 ◼   ► $25,000 gross after taxes that's more

00:22:27 ◼   ► like $15,000 thanks New York and so you

00:22:31 ◼   ► know it's like I'm gonna have to build

00:22:33 ◼   ► up the infrastructure and provide the

00:22:35 ◼   ► level of support that people would

00:22:38 ◼   ► expect from a 50 dollar app to only make

00:22:41 ◼   ► at most maybe $15,000 over the lifetime

00:22:44 ◼   ► of this app like that's that's a balance

00:22:46 ◼   ► that like the what you have to put in

00:22:49 ◼   ► place to support a $50 app properly lit

00:22:51 ◼   ► to what customers would expect from that

00:22:52 ◼   ► I don't it's not worth that to me for to

00:22:55 ◼   ► make that amount of money like I would I

00:22:57 ◼   ► would want to be making more money if I

00:22:58 ◼   ► was going to set that up at all and if

00:23:00 ◼   ► it's 50 bucks

00:23:01 ◼   ► like I think 500 customers is actually

00:23:04 ◼   ► pretty optimistic I think a way more

00:23:07 ◼   ► likely number is 100 yes to it which

00:23:10 ◼   ► gives I'm making $3,000 which I can buy

00:23:12 ◼   ► a MacBook Pro but that's about it not I

00:23:13 ◼   ► can buy most of a MacBook Pro but like

00:23:16 ◼   ► that like this is not we're not talking

00:23:19 ◼   ► major money here and so it wouldn't be

00:23:22 ◼   ► worth the overhead to me of having to

00:23:24 ◼   ► support having having it be a paid app

00:23:26 ◼   ► so I started looking at like you know

00:23:28 ◼   ► what are the other benefits of this app

00:23:29 ◼   ► existing I mean and one of them and and

00:23:31 ◼   ► you know you mentioned like you use

00:23:33 ◼   ► workouts plus plus you like it and so

00:23:36 ◼   ► you know I use forecast a lot of my

00:23:38 ◼   ► podcaster friends use it soon once I

00:23:41 ◼   ► release it other people will be able to

00:23:42 ◼   ► use it too and it benefits us all simply

00:23:46 ◼   ► by existing like the fact just that I

00:23:48 ◼   ► wrote it that is a benefit to me because

00:23:50 ◼   ► it saves me time every week and lets me

00:23:52 ◼   ► make podcasts better like and the

00:23:53 ◼   ► podcasts make money so like even if I

00:23:56 ◼   ► never make a dime from it and even if it

00:23:58 ◼   ► has even if I never even distributed

00:23:59 ◼   ► anybody else it already has been worth

00:24:01 ◼   ► the time I put into making it just for

00:24:03 ◼   ► the value it provides to me and then

00:24:05 ◼   ► also there's things like political goals

00:24:07 ◼   ► like I you know like I believe that it

00:24:10 ◼   ► would benefit podcasting as a whole if

00:24:13 ◼   ► more people use tools like this and and

00:24:16 ◼   ► I can advance certain goals I have like

00:24:18 ◼   ► I think mp3 is the best format for

00:24:20 ◼   ► distributing podcast right now not AAC

00:24:22 ◼   ► and

00:24:23 ◼   ► people currently want to use chapters

00:24:25 ◼   ► they often use AAC and so I think the

00:24:28 ◼   ► mp3 is better for that so I can put this

00:24:30 ◼   ► tool to kind of advance that agenda and

00:24:32 ◼   ► I have this other app overcast which has

00:24:35 ◼   ► you know it that doesn't make money and

00:24:37 ◼   ► there are ways that a podcast encoder

00:24:40 ◼   ► could benefit overcast so for instance

00:24:44 ◼   ► overcast we will always support every

00:24:47 ◼   ► forecast feature like you know I if I

00:24:49 ◼   ► can make sure that like the way I do

00:24:51 ◼   ► chapters in forecast will work in

00:24:53 ◼   ► overcast cuz I'm writing both sides that

00:24:55 ◼   ► it's using the same library both on both

00:24:57 ◼   ► ends I can make sure that always works

00:24:59 ◼   ► properly

00:24:59 ◼   ► I can also build new features into

00:25:03 ◼   ► overcast that require some kind of

00:25:06 ◼   ► metadata on the encoding side and I can

00:25:09 ◼   ► add that to forecast and I can have this

00:25:11 ◼   ► you know there's at least the podcasts

00:25:13 ◼   ► who use it they can then use these

00:25:15 ◼   ► features that get that I can integrate

00:25:16 ◼   ► into overcast and so like that there are

00:25:18 ◼   ► there are options I have there and and

00:25:21 ◼   ► there are lots of alternative business

00:25:22 ◼   ► models I can use besides paid upfront

00:25:23 ◼   ► obviously there's like you know trials

00:25:25 ◼   ► and you know nag ware and stuff like

00:25:27 ◼   ► that I I don't really want to do that

00:25:30 ◼   ► there is one thing though that that

00:25:32 ◼   ► could be a direct benefit here is that

00:25:35 ◼   ► forecast is used by podcast producers I

00:25:38 ◼   ► need to reach podcast listeners for

00:25:40 ◼   ► overcast

00:25:41 ◼   ► I need podcast producers to promote

00:25:43 ◼   ► overcast so yeah I could make it just

00:25:46 ◼   ► like the deal is if you use forecast you

00:25:49 ◼   ► need to either either buy some kind of

00:25:51 ◼   ► like goodwill policy or buy like

00:25:53 ◼   ► forcibly embedding a promo unless you

00:25:56 ◼   ► pay or something like that I could

00:25:58 ◼   ► require users of forecast to promote

00:26:00 ◼   ► overcast in their shows that's a little

00:26:03 ◼   ► gross I you know I don't like having it

00:26:05 ◼   ► be a hard requirement but I could just

00:26:07 ◼   ► put like a little piece of text

00:26:08 ◼   ► somewhere saying hey you know please

00:26:09 ◼   ► promote overcast periodically in your

00:26:10 ◼   ► shows if you like this you know and and

00:26:12 ◼   ► that you know not everybody would do

00:26:14 ◼   ► that probably a very low percentage of

00:26:15 ◼   ► the users would do it but if any of them

00:26:17 ◼   ► do it that's still a benefit so there

00:26:19 ◼   ► are lots of ways that I can look at this

00:26:21 ◼   ► and like it's very clear to me that I do

00:26:23 ◼   ► not want this to be a paid up front app

00:26:25 ◼   ► because it wouldn't bring in enough

00:26:26 ◼   ► money to be worth the hassle and the

00:26:28 ◼   ► support costs but there's lots of other

00:26:30 ◼   ► things that can do that the more people

00:26:32 ◼   ► use it the better these effects get so

00:26:34 ◼   ► it probably should be free yeah and I

00:26:36 ◼   ► think

00:26:37 ◼   ► what you as you're unpacked sort of

00:26:39 ◼   ► unpacking that what I see is it's

00:26:40 ◼   ► exactly the same sort of situation that

00:26:43 ◼   ► you were outlining for what I'm finding

00:26:45 ◼   ► myself with where it's the these

00:26:47 ◼   ► auxilary effects or network effects or

00:26:49 ◼   ► whatever these like these sort of these

00:26:51 ◼   ► vague kind of slightly amorphous but

00:26:53 ◼   ► definite benefits that just having it

00:26:58 ◼   ► out there as broadly as possible because

00:27:00 ◼   ► taking advantage of the fact that it

00:27:02 ◼   ► doesn't like cost us we're not producing

00:27:04 ◼   ► a physical object that we costs us money

00:27:06 ◼   ► to produce like an extra copy it's just

00:27:08 ◼   ► we can just put the put it out there and

00:27:10 ◼   ► it's as many people whose use it as

00:27:12 ◼   ► possible like there's no ongoing cost to

00:27:15 ◼   ► us that that nests are almost

00:27:17 ◼   ► necessarily accrues all these other

00:27:19 ◼   ► little side benefits that are wonderful

00:27:23 ◼   ► and especially because it's it's like

00:27:24 ◼   ► it's not totally orthogonal to like your

00:27:26 ◼   ► main business like if it were like you

00:27:28 ◼   ► wrote this Matthews you wrote a to-do

00:27:31 ◼   ► list manager on for the Mac like okay

00:27:34 ◼   ► that's a bit more complicated to have

00:27:36 ◼   ► these kind of these beneficial overlaps

00:27:38 ◼   ► but like even just the fact of like

00:27:41 ◼   ► podcast producers be knowing about

00:27:43 ◼   ► overcast is a great thing if keeping in

00:27:47 ◼   ► mind that over people the people who buy

00:27:49 ◼   ► the ads that are shown in overcast our

00:27:51 ◼   ► podcast producers currently right right

00:27:53 ◼   ► exactly like just making them aware of

00:27:55 ◼   ► overcast and having it be a marketing

00:27:59 ◼   ► tool like in a weird way it's like

00:28:01 ◼   ► whatever a potential cost you are giving

00:28:05 ◼   ► up whatever that few thousand dollars is

00:28:06 ◼   ► and not have not trying to get money

00:28:09 ◼   ► from it it's like just viewing it as a

00:28:11 ◼   ► strict marketing expense like the

00:28:13 ◼   ► forecast is a elaborate advertisement

00:28:17 ◼   ► for overcast that is targeted at a very

00:28:19 ◼   ► specific demographic but turns out to be

00:28:22 ◼   ► the demographic that you are trying to

00:28:25 ◼   ► reach to buy ads in your app like it is

00:28:27 ◼   ► such an interesting thing when you stop

00:28:29 ◼   ► if you like when you like all these

00:28:31 ◼   ► little benefits that can appear when you

00:28:34 ◼   ► don't worry about the short-term benefit

00:28:38 ◼   ► of it like all these down the road like

00:28:40 ◼   ► just it's hard to quantify it's hard to

00:28:42 ◼   ► know but I'm almost certainly the more

00:28:44 ◼   ► people who know about overcast that's

00:28:47 ◼   ► better than not so like making it free

00:28:50 ◼   ► and just have

00:28:51 ◼   ► in having the goal of it being you know

00:28:53 ◼   ► that as many as a higher number of

00:28:55 ◼   ► podcast producers as possible are using

00:28:58 ◼   ► it you know that's awesome

00:28:59 ◼   ► and especially because like I know which

00:29:03 ◼   ► of the apps that podcast that I listen

00:29:05 ◼   ► to are using forecast because they have

00:29:08 ◼   ► raged like that they have great chapters

00:29:11 ◼   ► and the way the chapters work like it

00:29:12 ◼   ► all works seamlessly in overcast and so

00:29:14 ◼   ► that makes overcast look good like the

00:29:17 ◼   ► more people who do that the better it

00:29:18 ◼   ► would be so like seems like it's a win

00:29:19 ◼   ► win everywhere exactly well thank you

00:29:23 ◼   ► everybody for listening we're out of

00:29:24 ◼   ► time this week make sure that you

00:29:25 ◼   ► download workouts plus plus buy it while

00:29:27 ◼   ► you said well it's still paid and then

00:29:29 ◼   ► by all david's other apps and then make

00:29:31 ◼   ► sure you I use forecast when I release

00:29:32 ◼   ► it in the meantime please use overcast

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00:29:39 ◼   ► we'll talk to you next week bye