Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm mark

00:00:05 ◼   ► Worman and I'm David Smith

00:00:06 ◼   ► under-the-radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so I have a

00:00:12 ◼   ► problem and I think it's a problem that

00:00:14 ◼   ► I think you can probably help me with

00:00:15 ◼   ► Marco and I think it's something that we

00:00:18 ◼   ► need to talk about are you breaking up

00:00:20 ◼   ► with me no no nothing like that

00:00:22 ◼   ► but it's it's an area that I hear that

00:00:24 ◼   ► you're an expert in and I feel like I

00:00:26 ◼   ► just need some advice so this last week

00:00:29 ◼   ► I have been you know have dealing with

00:00:32 ◼   ► kind of a tricky situation broker

00:00:34 ◼   ► programmatically so I'm working on

00:00:36 ◼   ► workouts plus plus I have been we're

00:00:40 ◼   ► adding a whole bunch of new features to

00:00:41 ◼   ► it it's been it's really nice like

00:00:42 ◼   ► update that I've planned for the fee at

00:00:44 ◼   ► the end of this year and there's one one

00:00:47 ◼   ► thing left basically like I have this

00:00:49 ◼   ► one big task I need to undertake I need

00:00:51 ◼   ► to redesign the workout configuration

00:00:55 ◼   ► screen and it's kind of this big

00:00:56 ◼   ► multi-day task that I'm kind of honestly

00:00:59 ◼   ► scared about and the thing that I'm

00:01:01 ◼   ► struggling with is what is the best

00:01:03 ◼   ► methods that I can use to procrastinate

00:01:06 ◼   ► and not do it because that is

00:01:09 ◼   ► essentially what I have found myself

00:01:11 ◼   ► doing for the last week and you know it

00:01:15 ◼   ► all I thought would be interesting thing

00:01:17 ◼   ► to discuss because I started to keep

00:01:19 ◼   ► track of what things I should what about

00:01:23 ◼   ► will all the strategies that I have come

00:01:25 ◼   ► up with to avoid doing this task and so

00:01:28 ◼   ► far my list is 19 different things that

00:01:30 ◼   ► I have done in the last week to avoid

00:01:33 ◼   ► doing this and so hey this is a little

00:01:36 ◼   ► bit of comedy in that and you know I'm

00:01:38 ◼   ► sure you have your own and I think it

00:01:40 ◼   ► actually is interesting to unpack a

00:01:41 ◼   ► little bit of what the things that I do

00:01:44 ◼   ► are because the more I think about this

00:01:48 ◼   ► and like as from slightly self-aware

00:01:50 ◼   ► like the thing that is likely most most

00:01:53 ◼   ► likely to get me to actually you know

00:01:55 ◼   ► attack this problem and to solve it is

00:01:58 ◼   ► to recognize when I'm doing the things

00:02:01 ◼   ► that are avoidance and when I'm you know

00:02:03 ◼   ► and recognize them for what they are and

00:02:05 ◼   ► you know maybe sometimes that's okay but

00:02:07 ◼   ► the reality is like when I do some of

00:02:09 ◼   ► these things like I you know the first

00:02:11 ◼   ► one on my list is implementing random

00:02:13 ◼   ► small features I like I've just been

00:02:18 ◼   ► doing that random and like the whole

00:02:20 ◼   ► which is in somebody's is great like

00:02:22 ◼   ► I've added some really cool interesting

00:02:23 ◼   ► ideas to work out to plus plus but at

00:02:26 ◼   ► the same time I was like I'm just why am

00:02:27 ◼   ► i adding these random features that are

00:02:30 ◼   ► not core to you know the core experience

00:02:32 ◼   ► of the app when all I'm really doing is

00:02:35 ◼   ► just putting off this thing that is

00:02:37 ◼   ► absolutely essential that I cannot ship

00:02:39 ◼   ► this update without doing so anyway I

00:02:42 ◼   ► hear you're an expert in avoiding work

00:02:44 ◼   ► so you seem to you seem the right the

00:02:45 ◼   ► right person to talk to about this

00:02:47 ◼   ► problem I'm having

00:02:47 ◼   ► oh yeah it's like procrastinate

00:02:54 ◼   ► you do other things that make you feel

00:02:56 ◼   ► productive that maybe are productive but

00:03:01 ◼   ► are still not the thing you're really

00:03:02 ◼   ► supposed to be doing or like the one big

00:03:03 ◼   ► thing that you have to do like it's not

00:03:05 ◼   ► that thing but you're doing other things

00:03:07 ◼   ► that nevertheless are either useful or

00:03:10 ◼   ► valuable or productive in some other way

00:03:13 ◼   ► so that this happens to me all the time

00:03:16 ◼   ► it is really hard for me to motivate

00:03:20 ◼   ► myself to work on something I don't feel

00:03:21 ◼   ► like doing this it was always a problem

00:03:24 ◼   ► in my entire schooling when I was a kid

00:03:27 ◼   ► and you know like doing any any ever

00:03:29 ◼   ► motivate myself to do homework or

00:03:30 ◼   ► anything it was just like impossible for

00:03:32 ◼   ► me like it was like there was a brick

00:03:34 ◼   ► wall this is probably just my lack of

00:03:35 ◼   ► work ethic or being lazy or something

00:03:37 ◼   ► like that I don't think there's any kind

00:03:38 ◼   ► of clinical estimation for this but

00:03:40 ◼   ► basically just in making it impossible

00:03:43 ◼   ► for me to do things I don't feel like

00:03:45 ◼   ► doing or that I'm discouraged from doing

00:03:47 ◼   ► what I don't want to do so I've always

00:03:50 ◼   ► suffered from that or had problems with

00:03:52 ◼   ► that I have never found ways to manage

00:03:55 ◼   ► it and I probably never will find ways

00:03:57 ◼   ► to manage it if I had if I hadn't even

00:03:58 ◼   ► started by the time I'm now 35 and I

00:04:00 ◼   ► still figured out how to how to do

00:04:01 ◼   ► things I want to do I'm probably this

00:04:04 ◼   ► probably is not the kind of thing I'm

00:04:05 ◼   ► gonna get better at over time I just to

00:04:07 ◼   ► figure out ways to manage it and work

00:04:08 ◼   ► around it I - and facing large barriers

00:04:12 ◼   ► for me it's it's almost debilitating for

00:04:15 ◼   ► overcast development right now because

00:04:16 ◼   ► I'm very susceptible to convincing

00:04:20 ◼   ► myself that a crazy UI hack is worth

00:04:23 ◼   ► doing because it makes the app nicer or

00:04:26 ◼   ► achieve something I want

00:04:27 ◼   ► to achieve in the UI and so over time in

00:04:30 ◼   ► all of my apps I have always even though

00:04:33 ◼   ► I've told you and the listeners on this

00:04:35 ◼   ► show just stick with stock uikit stuff

00:04:38 ◼   ► don't hack it don't do crazy stuff don't

00:04:40 ◼   ► do crazy custom stuff if you don't have

00:04:41 ◼   ► to like you're better off sticking with

00:04:43 ◼   ► customs you're sticking with stock stuff

00:04:44 ◼   ► the reason I say that is because I keep

00:04:47 ◼   ► not following that advice myself and I

00:04:48 ◼   ► keep doing crazy UI stuff that takes

00:04:51 ◼   ► massive amounts of development time

00:04:54 ◼   ► creates huge numbers of weird little

00:04:56 ◼   ► bugs and animation bugs and everything

00:04:58 ◼   ► else that I don't have to spend more

00:04:59 ◼   ► development time on and then if Apple

00:05:02 ◼   ► changes some critical thing or I want to

00:05:04 ◼   ► adopt some new kind of style like you

00:05:07 ◼   ► know like moving from a collection of

00:05:08 ◼   ► you to it or from a table view to a

00:05:09 ◼   ► collection view or something like that

00:05:10 ◼   ► if I wanted to do something fancy or

00:05:12 ◼   ► something new or in the case of iOS 11

00:05:15 ◼   ► things like adopting drag and drop for

00:05:17 ◼   ► reordering that then requires me to

00:05:19 ◼   ► throw out my giant pile of hacks that I

00:05:21 ◼   ► did before and possibly create a new one

00:05:24 ◼   ► and so my iOS 11 update has been plagued

00:05:27 ◼   ► with massive amounts of messing with the

00:05:32 ◼   ► UI if first of all iOS 11 basically

00:05:35 ◼   ► seems to have rewritten UI tableview

00:05:37 ◼   ► like the way you eye table view works in

00:05:39 ◼   ► iOS 11 is so different especially in the

00:05:42 ◼   ► ways it manages sizing anime and

00:05:43 ◼   ► animations basically it broke all my

00:05:45 ◼   ► table views in in some way or another

00:05:46 ◼   ► and it broke all my custom cells it

00:05:49 ◼   ► broke everything about how I do it and

00:05:51 ◼   ► the only reason overcast runs on iOS 11

00:05:54 ◼   ► at all right now

00:05:55 ◼   ► in the in the public version is that and

00:05:59 ◼   ► when it's built against a previous SDK

00:06:01 ◼   ► like at the iOS 10 SDK it runs in a

00:06:04 ◼   ► compatibility mode and Apple seems to be

00:06:06 ◼   ► using mostly the old UI tableview code

00:06:09 ◼   ► for apps that are built against it which

00:06:10 ◼   ► is nice but I can't just keep building

00:06:13 ◼   ► my app against I guess the iOS 10 SDK

00:06:16 ◼   ► forever so I and I can't use iOS 11

00:06:19 ◼   ► features without building against a I

00:06:21 ◼   ► was 11 SDK so I have to basically in the

00:06:24 ◼   ► process of adopting some pretty basic

00:06:26 ◼   ► iOS 11 stuff I have had to rewrite many

00:06:29 ◼   ► of my core tableview logic and cells and

00:06:32 ◼   ► fuse and everything else and it turns

00:06:34 ◼   ► out podcast apps have a lot of those so

00:06:36 ◼   ► so it's it has been a massive

00:06:38 ◼   ► undertaking and it's incredibly

00:06:41 ◼   ► demoralizing because all I want to do is

00:06:44 ◼   ► work on like features like that's all I

00:06:47 ◼   ► want to do I have so many great ideas

00:06:48 ◼   ► for cool features I want to do and I'm

00:06:50 ◼   ► stuck working for months on and months

00:06:53 ◼   ► and months and months on animation

00:06:56 ◼   ► glitches and minor UI stuff that I that

00:07:00 ◼   ► all I'm doing is trying to restore it

00:07:01 ◼   ► from where it was before to the new iOS

00:07:03 ◼   ► 11 version and and it is horrible so

00:07:07 ◼   ► instead of doing that I will hurt rather

00:07:09 ◼   ► in addition doing that really I have

00:07:11 ◼   ► also taken lots of time here to do other

00:07:15 ◼   ► things so I've been you know modifying

00:07:17 ◼   ► the UI to accommodate things people

00:07:19 ◼   ► actually want like the one tap play

00:07:21 ◼   ► thing you know that I didn't have to do

00:07:23 ◼   ► that in this update but I kind of shoved

00:07:24 ◼   ► it in because I needed a break to bring

00:07:27 ◼   ► all the incredibly tedious and

00:07:29 ◼   ► demoralizing tableview hacking so I did

00:07:31 ◼   ► that I have debated and tweaked and even

00:07:36 ◼   ► shared on Twitter the process of doing

00:07:38 ◼   ► lots of different UI details I have also

00:07:42 ◼   ► added you know a couple new settings and

00:07:45 ◼   ► fix that long-standing copy in the

00:07:48 ◼   ► search box crashing bug thanks to Brent

00:07:51 ◼   ► Simmons for that and so there have been

00:07:54 ◼   ► so many things that I've done in the

00:07:56 ◼   ► meantime I have set up a whole new

00:07:58 ◼   ► laptop I have currently I'm recording on

00:08:01 ◼   ► a laptop because I finally brought in my

00:08:03 ◼   ► iMac for repair because the warranty

00:08:05 ◼   ► expires in nine days and I might look at

00:08:08 ◼   ► it repaired so that's a whole review

00:08:10 ◼   ► like prepare and imact

00:08:12 ◼   ► prepare your main computer to go into

00:08:13 ◼   ► the Apple for a week then prepare

00:08:15 ◼   ► another computer to be your main

00:08:16 ◼   ► computer in the meet

00:08:18 ◼   ► I'm getting my dog a haircut this

00:08:19 ◼   ► afternoon my kitchen has never been

00:08:22 ◼   ► cleaner than it has been these last few

00:08:23 ◼   ► weeks because it's like any time there's

00:08:26 ◼   ► a speck of anything in the kitchen or

00:08:27 ◼   ► anything is out I clean it immediately

00:08:29 ◼   ► because that's something to do that

00:08:30 ◼   ► feels productive

00:08:31 ◼   ► I mean we've we've played a lot of story

00:08:34 ◼   ► that it's just a star to valley in our

00:08:36 ◼   ► house it has a few weeks that for some

00:08:39 ◼   ► reason peels productivity gain that

00:08:40 ◼   ► feels like work it's it's it is crazy

00:08:44 ◼   ► how much I have done in the in the app

00:08:47 ◼   ► in the last few months really and in the

00:08:50 ◼   ► last few weeks solely to keep myself

00:08:53 ◼   ► sane

00:08:54 ◼   ► while I have either been procrastinating

00:08:56 ◼   ► or been slogging through working on

00:08:59 ◼   ► these horrible UI things that I honestly

00:09:02 ◼   ► just do not want to do not want to work

00:09:04 ◼   ► on and I just cannot wait for it to be

00:09:06 ◼   ► done and shipped oh not to mention the

00:09:09 ◼   ► iPhone 10 and adopting to that all that

00:09:11 ◼   ► like all the in sets the and everything

00:09:13 ◼   ► like it turns out that while Apple has

00:09:17 ◼   ► made a pretty good system with the safe

00:09:20 ◼   ► area in sets and safe area guides and

00:09:22 ◼   ► everything like the API is actually

00:09:24 ◼   ► pretty complete and pretty rich for that

00:09:26 ◼   ► and I'm really happy working with it

00:09:28 ◼   ► when I do but if your app supports

00:09:31 ◼   ► landscape orientation at all you

00:09:34 ◼   ► probably have to work on every single

00:09:36 ◼   ► screen in the app to adopt 2.2 the

00:09:38 ◼   ► iPhone 10 any screen that supports

00:09:40 ◼   ► landscape on an iPhone probably needs

00:09:42 ◼   ► work not to mention every screen you

00:09:46 ◼   ► know in portrait orientation it needs at

00:09:48 ◼   ► least consideration if you have anything

00:09:50 ◼   ► beyond a very basic navigation bar and

00:09:53 ◼   ► tool bar stock set up anything else

00:09:55 ◼   ► where you put anything anywhere near an

00:09:57 ◼   ► edge or the top or the bottom or a

00:09:59 ◼   ► corner and by the way for for the past

00:10:03 ◼   ► decade stock iOS design has meant

00:10:05 ◼   ► putting things in corners now we have no

00:10:08 ◼   ► corners so that's a challenge it's not

00:10:11 ◼   ► like things there are so much like

00:10:14 ◼   ► tedious demoralizing work that I've had

00:10:17 ◼   ► to do just to catch up to iOS 11 and the

00:10:20 ◼   ► iPhone 10 that I'm just starving for

00:10:25 ◼   ► ways to procrastinate and and other

00:10:27 ◼   ► things to do that can that can kind of

00:10:29 ◼   ► give me a little like that a little

00:10:31 ◼   ► happy boost to having accomplished

00:10:32 ◼   ► something beyond just slogging away at

00:10:35 ◼   ► another safe area in sets thing or

00:10:37 ◼   ► another UI tableview animation bug

00:10:39 ◼   ► well that's somewhere that I can help

00:10:41 ◼   ► you cuz I have a long list of other

00:10:43 ◼   ► approaches that you haven't many things

00:10:45 ◼   ► to avoid work so like I there's

00:10:48 ◼   ► organizing your to-do list which is

00:10:51 ◼   ► great and then oh yeah I did that I did

00:10:53 ◼   ► that last night I I merged all the beta

00:10:54 ◼   ► feedback from multiple sources until one

00:10:56 ◼   ► document that I'm now working and then

00:10:59 ◼   ► the best part once you've done that

00:11:00 ◼   ► right is then you then you start to

00:11:02 ◼   ► question your to-do list method in the

00:11:04 ◼   ► first place yeah and if you're usually

00:11:06 ◼   ► using the right app for it you want

00:11:08 ◼   ► explore try out a few other apps or try

00:11:11 ◼   ► you know I think think about home what

00:11:13 ◼   ► if there's a different method or

00:11:14 ◼   ► approach so I did that I've done that

00:11:16 ◼   ► for a while I've gone through all my

00:11:18 ◼   ► emails I was supposed to respond to for

00:11:20 ◼   ► you know several weeks that have been

00:11:23 ◼   ► you know backing up in my inbox I

00:11:26 ◼   ► watched a few WWDC videos oh that's a

00:11:28 ◼   ► good one to you for a while which is

00:11:30 ◼   ► great it feels so productive I'd be in

00:11:31 ◼   ► there like there's code and be like I'm

00:11:33 ◼   ► learning I went field testing so like I

00:11:37 ◼   ► have a workout app right so like listen

00:11:38 ◼   ► go for a walk yeah I feel good for you

00:11:40 ◼   ► means I went for a walk

00:11:45 ◼   ► it was sleep trackers like oh I took a

00:11:48 ◼   ► nap to test my head I have to test this

00:11:49 ◼   ► app I mean perfect right thank that's

00:11:52 ◼   ► exactly this is this is the right

00:11:54 ◼   ► mindset that one run that we're on the

00:11:56 ◼   ► same wavelength here mm-hmm I've been

00:11:58 ◼   ► solving other people's problems like any

00:11:59 ◼   ► time so you have any time you mention

00:12:02 ◼   ► any kind of design issue with overcast

00:12:04 ◼   ► and like right there like you all right

00:12:05 ◼   ► let me let me get in there let me solve

00:12:07 ◼   ► other people's problems because their

00:12:09 ◼   ► problems are better than mine your

00:12:10 ◼   ► feedback has been awesome very detailed

00:12:11 ◼   ► yeah I got I got lots of attention

00:12:14 ◼   ► [Laughter]

00:12:17 ◼   ► you mean I surprised you I've heard at

00:12:19 ◼   ► least one or maybe two apps of course

00:12:21 ◼   ► why not that's a typical Tuesday you

00:12:25 ◼   ► know just like hey I have this idea why

00:12:26 ◼   ► don't I try it out hey great there goes

00:12:28 ◼   ► there goes half a day I decide you know

00:12:31 ◼   ► what I need to do to build this feature

00:12:33 ◼   ► like I'm just I'm just scared of it

00:12:35 ◼   ► because I don't know what its gonna look

00:12:36 ◼   ► like I haven't designed it yet so you

00:12:38 ◼   ► know you know I usually just designing

00:12:40 ◼   ► code but maybe what I should do is I

00:12:41 ◼   ► should design in paper and then I need

00:12:43 ◼   ► to explore different ways of you know

00:12:46 ◼   ► designing in paper and like finding the

00:12:48 ◼   ► right grid and they reach the right dot

00:12:49 ◼   ► grid that I need to within that I mean

00:12:51 ◼   ► you have to buy in a notebook maybe some

00:12:53 ◼   ► drafting pens yeah I mean I thought

00:12:55 ◼   ► about buying a note with problem is the

00:12:56 ◼   ► shipping and it doesn't feel productive

00:12:57 ◼   ► if you have to wait on shipping it's

00:12:58 ◼   ► much more productive if I can just spend

00:13:00 ◼   ► a while going through PDFs of like

00:13:02 ◼   ► printable guides and deciding which one

00:13:04 ◼   ► is exactly right

00:13:05 ◼   ► rather than just you know buying the

00:13:07 ◼   ► that the the pano book the new book that

00:13:10 ◼   ► the student guys came out with and then

00:13:12 ◼   ► I'd be done like that take five minutes

00:13:14 ◼   ► no no no I need to I need to really

00:13:16 ◼   ► research this and make sure I'm doing it

00:13:18 ◼   ► the right way

00:13:20 ◼   ► the ability I worked on other apps which

00:13:23 ◼   ► was fun naturally just like some of my

00:13:25 ◼   ► other apps that had been slightly

00:13:26 ◼   ► neglected I was like oh great I really

00:13:28 ◼   ► have I need to work on them instead and

00:13:31 ◼   ► CIA spent a while trying to find just

00:13:33 ◼   ► the right music to listen to while I was

00:13:36 ◼   ► trying to solve this problem because

00:13:37 ◼   ► clearly that's the problem that's

00:13:40 ◼   ► definitely the problem and now you have

00:13:41 ◼   ► to also research headphones streaming

00:13:43 ◼   ► services

00:13:46 ◼   ► maybe maybe get into the weird worlds of

00:13:48 ◼   ► like ASMR and other weird stuff that you

00:13:51 ◼   ► could be listening to instead of music

00:13:52 ◼   ► there's you know maybe it would help

00:13:56 ◼   ► maybe that would be me that's my problem

00:13:59 ◼   ► I'm just listening to the wrong music

00:14:00 ◼   ► you can maybe maybe work on your desk

00:14:02 ◼   ► set up like if you if you easily clean

00:14:04 ◼   ► your desk or that's that rearrange my

00:14:07 ◼   ► list that's number 17 in my office I

00:14:09 ◼   ► mean it is amazing how how you

00:14:12 ◼   ► I mean I will confess my office is not

00:14:14 ◼   ► really clean but I have moved stuff

00:14:16 ◼   ► around a lot like nothing is where it

00:14:19 ◼   ► was at the beginning of the week it's

00:14:20 ◼   ► not really clean it's just moved it's

00:14:22 ◼   ► just different I've gone upstairs and I

00:14:26 ◼   ► it's like you know what I need I need to

00:14:28 ◼   ► take a break in like make it maybe make

00:14:29 ◼   ► a cup of coffee get a snack maybe it's

00:14:31 ◼   ► like blood sugar issues like new that's

00:14:33 ◼   ► why I can't focus and work on this thing

00:14:35 ◼   ► I need to like you know have a nice

00:14:36 ◼   ► snack and need to get a little caffeine

00:14:38 ◼   ► I'll solve me even bout some hardware

00:14:41 ◼   ► like you got a new hard drive set up for

00:14:43 ◼   ► our media at home like you know you did

00:14:45 ◼   ► that I totally needed to do that they

00:14:49 ◼   ► have like it is amazing how creative you

00:14:52 ◼   ► can be when you're trying to avoid doing

00:14:54 ◼   ► something like all those things that I

00:14:57 ◼   ► just went through like are things that I

00:14:58 ◼   ► did and are like sort of productive like

00:15:02 ◼   ► sort of useful but in reality I'm not

00:15:06 ◼   ► really not really so isn't it's like

00:15:10 ◼   ► lots of movement not moving in the right

00:15:12 ◼   ► direction you know like it's so

00:15:16 ◼   ► frustrating when you've been when I

00:15:17 ◼   ► start to like actually like self reflect

00:15:20 ◼   ► about it and like see what I'm doing

00:15:21 ◼   ► because like I feel like when I was in

00:15:25 ◼   ► some ways I really appreciated when I

00:15:26 ◼   ► worked like I mean it feels like like a

00:15:30 ◼   ► lifetime ago but back when I worked for

00:15:32 ◼   ► him more tradition

00:15:33 ◼   ► programming job where I had a boss who

00:15:35 ◼   ► would tell me to do something even if I

00:15:39 ◼   ► didn't want to do it like I could just

00:15:40 ◼   ► sort of I could begrudgingly do it

00:15:42 ◼   ► because I kind of had to I could have I

00:15:45 ◼   ► mean not that I was like perfectly

00:15:47 ◼   ► productive in that environment and there

00:15:49 ◼   ► were many times that I still like found

00:15:51 ◼   ► things to do to avoid doing it but there

00:15:54 ◼   ► was certainly something powerful and

00:15:55 ◼   ► having somebody at the end of the day

00:15:57 ◼   ► being like so where you you know should

00:15:59 ◼   ► show me how far you've gotten on this

00:16:00 ◼   ► feature and if I didn't have anything to

00:16:03 ◼   ► show like that would reflect poorly on

00:16:06 ◼   ► me and I'd be embarrassed or you know

00:16:10 ◼   ► like feel like I hadn't been you know

00:16:12 ◼   ► sort of doing things right you know be

00:16:13 ◼   ► socially awkward and I mean I'll do a

00:16:15 ◼   ► lot to avoid being socially awkward or

00:16:17 ◼   ► avoid socially awkward situations and so

00:16:20 ◼   ► I would I could work could work on it

00:16:22 ◼   ► and I could get things done in that way

00:16:23 ◼   ► but without that without somebody who is

00:16:27 ◼   ► like I'm accountable to for building

00:16:29 ◼   ► something it is so easy to just come up

00:16:31 ◼   ► with a reason to to not and if it's like

00:16:35 ◼   ► I think the thing that is so rough I

00:16:36 ◼   ► think you mentioned this like it feels

00:16:37 ◼   ► like physics it's like from a physical

00:16:41 ◼   ► perspective like it actually feels good

00:16:42 ◼   ► because you're able to like get the like

00:16:45 ◼   ► I in certain think the awkward thing is

00:16:47 ◼   ► you probably I probably get just as much

00:16:49 ◼   ► like immediate satisfaction from you

00:16:52 ◼   ► know reorganizing my desk as I will in

00:16:56 ◼   ► two or three days when I finally

00:16:58 ◼   ► finished this big redesign and like

00:17:01 ◼   ► that's kind of awkward because it's not

00:17:04 ◼   ► like it grows proportionally with the

00:17:06 ◼   ► different with the difficulty of the

00:17:07 ◼   ► task if it did like in some ways I'd

00:17:10 ◼   ► have this like built-in incentive like

00:17:11 ◼   ► oh man once I solve this really big

00:17:13 ◼   ► problem I'll feel really really good but

00:17:16 ◼   ► the reality is least for myself is like

00:17:19 ◼   ► I'll probably feel just as productive

00:17:20 ◼   ► and just as a sense of accomplishment or

00:17:22 ◼   ► maybe like I'll feel 10% more than I

00:17:24 ◼   ► will for just moving stuff around on my

00:17:26 ◼   ► desk and then not remembering where

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00:19:23 ◼   ► think one thing you've touched on is

00:19:25 ◼   ► there's different value to how you spend

00:19:28 ◼   ► your time and there's there's value to

00:19:31 ◼   ► you and there's value to your customers

00:19:34 ◼   ► or your users or your apps and there

00:19:37 ◼   ► needs to be a balance of both really

00:19:39 ◼   ► like you know you mentioned like it

00:19:41 ◼   ► feels great to clean up your desk and

00:19:43 ◼   ► rearrange things or do things in other

00:19:46 ◼   ► apps but like so that in that way like

00:19:48 ◼   ► you are like you're kind of paying

00:19:51 ◼   ► yourself there you're doing something to

00:19:52 ◼   ► satisfy yourself but your customers are

00:19:55 ◼   ► getting nothing - very little from that

00:19:58 ◼   ► your customers and your apps

00:20:01 ◼   ► also need their needs to be satisfied

00:20:04 ◼   ► and so and and your business needs its

00:20:07 ◼   ► needs to be satisfied so ultimately the

00:20:10 ◼   ► the correct balance is both and like you

00:20:14 ◼   ► know like in my case I again I'm not

00:20:16 ◼   ► great at this but like I have tried to

00:20:17 ◼   ► do that myself where I am some of the

00:20:21 ◼   ► ways I'm procrastinating are adding

00:20:23 ◼   ► features to the app that people actually

00:20:24 ◼   ► want anyway

00:20:25 ◼   ► you know I'm not just doing the UI stuff

00:20:27 ◼   ► and also I'm having to do things like

00:20:30 ◼   ► that just to keep myself motivated to

00:20:33 ◼   ► keep going at all because otherwise I

00:20:35 ◼   ► would just fall into a big rut and just

00:20:37 ◼   ► not get anything done for months which

00:20:39 ◼   ► has happened before and will probably

00:20:41 ◼   ► happen again

00:20:41 ◼   ► but you know like in order to avoid

00:20:44 ◼   ► falling into a rut and and doing nothing

00:20:47 ◼   ► for a while I have to do things that are

00:20:49 ◼   ► interesting to me sometimes but I can do

00:20:51 ◼   ► like you know one of those a week and

00:20:54 ◼   ► then try to spend the rest of the week

00:20:56 ◼   ► doing what I actually have to do and I

00:20:58 ◼   ► feel like that's a good balance if I

00:21:00 ◼   ► only did things that weren't the big

00:21:03 ◼   ► thing I had to do then that big thing

00:21:05 ◼   ► wouldn't get done and then I would be

00:21:07 ◼   ► like you know doing these interesting

00:21:08 ◼   ► things that meet them you know things

00:21:09 ◼   ► like oh this would be a great time to

00:21:10 ◼   ► adopt you know rx Swift or unit testing

00:21:14 ◼   ► or some other thing that Casey likes and

00:21:15 ◼   ► like if I did that like that would be

00:21:18 ◼   ► nice that might be interesting that

00:21:20 ◼   ► might be satisfying that might bring

00:21:21 ◼   ► other benefits but if a major version of

00:21:24 ◼   ► my app is being delayed while I you know

00:21:27 ◼   ► mess around with other stuff like that

00:21:29 ◼   ► that's ultimately hurting the app and

00:21:32 ◼   ► that's not gonna make that big need go

00:21:34 ◼   ► away like you're still gonna need to do

00:21:36 ◼   ► the big thing you're still gonna need to

00:21:38 ◼   ► finally do the thing that you've been

00:21:39 ◼   ► putting off now you're doing it later

00:21:41 ◼   ► so there is a balance to be struck but

00:21:44 ◼   ► and it you can't it's like it's like you

00:21:47 ◼   ► know queue starvation or priority a

00:21:48 ◼   ► priority starvation like you can't

00:21:50 ◼   ► totally ignore the big thing you have to

00:21:52 ◼   ► eventually do it what do you think our

00:21:54 ◼   ► strategy is to actually finally just do

00:21:56 ◼   ► it yeah and I think that's the thing

00:22:00 ◼   ► that I've been thinking about I mean in

00:22:01 ◼   ► some ways that well this is the thing

00:22:02 ◼   ► that I love about having a podcast right

00:22:04 ◼   ► because it kind of like I started

00:22:06 ◼   ► working in earnest on this feature that

00:22:08 ◼   ► I haven't been I've been putting off

00:22:09 ◼   ► this morning like a couple hours ago

00:22:11 ◼   ► when I decided that we were going to

00:22:12 ◼   ► talk about it on the show

00:22:13 ◼   ► and partly it's like a not everyone as a

00:22:17 ◼   ► podcast that they can talk about and

00:22:18 ◼   ► then like feel bad if they hadn't

00:22:19 ◼   ► actually started but I think the key

00:22:22 ◼   ► thing that I was realizing is hey it's

00:22:25 ◼   ► like the importance of being honest with

00:22:26 ◼   ► ourselves because as much as I would

00:22:29 ◼   ► like to say like it's that you can't

00:22:31 ◼   ► just will yourself to be more productive

00:22:33 ◼   ► or be more motivated like maybe that

00:22:36 ◼   ► works for some people but certainly

00:22:38 ◼   ► doesn't work for me and from my

00:22:39 ◼   ► experience that's most talking to other

00:22:40 ◼   ► people like it is the kind of thing that

00:22:42 ◼   ► you all you can do is put yourself in an

00:22:46 ◼   ► environment where you are likely to be

00:22:47 ◼   ► motivated but you cannot like directly

00:22:50 ◼   ► affect motivation itself like it is

00:22:52 ◼   ► somewhat more ephemeral in that way and

00:22:54 ◼   ► so what you end up with are like what

00:22:57 ◼   ► are things that you can do to try and

00:22:58 ◼   ► make it make yourself more motivated or

00:23:01 ◼   ► at the very least to short-circuit the

00:23:04 ◼   ► things that are unmotivated you and so

00:23:07 ◼   ► like as an example of something that I

00:23:08 ◼   ► honestly have started to do that I think

00:23:10 ◼   ► has been very helpful in shortening the

00:23:12 ◼   ► amount of time I spend doing you know

00:23:15 ◼   ► they sort of these things that feel

00:23:16 ◼   ► productive but aren't actually working

00:23:18 ◼   ► towards my fundamental goals is to be

00:23:21 ◼   ► just trying to be more mindful of what

00:23:23 ◼   ► that when I'm doing that and so it's

00:23:26 ◼   ► like being aware of like it was actually

00:23:27 ◼   ► really productive for me to sit down and

00:23:30 ◼   ► you know make this list of 19 things

00:23:32 ◼   ► that I've done to avoid working on this

00:23:33 ◼   ► feature because now that it's a list

00:23:36 ◼   ► like it feels less scary and it feels

00:23:38 ◼   ► more like it just it's it's very this

00:23:41 ◼   ► concrete thing and I can choose to add

00:23:44 ◼   ► something to that list or I can work on

00:23:46 ◼   ► feet work on the actual feature and at a

00:23:49 ◼   ► certain point adding another thing to

00:23:50 ◼   ► the list feels worse than working on the

00:23:53 ◼   ► feature and so that's like a productive

00:23:56 ◼   ► thing to just be aware of when you're

00:23:58 ◼   ► doing it and not end up just spending

00:24:00 ◼   ► three days doing something you know work

00:24:02 ◼   ► adding random features to the app as an

00:24:05 ◼   ► avoidance mechanism and not be aware

00:24:07 ◼   ► that you're doing it and why you're

00:24:09 ◼   ► doing it because it's totally fine to do

00:24:11 ◼   ► those things and to be like you know I

00:24:12 ◼   ► don't want to work on that today I'm

00:24:13 ◼   ► going to do this other random thing

00:24:15 ◼   ► there but at least then it's a conscious

00:24:16 ◼   ► choice at least it's like a thing that

00:24:18 ◼   ► I'm choosing to do rather than sort of

00:24:21 ◼   ► doing letting my subs you know

00:24:23 ◼   ► subconscious avoid the work on its own

00:24:27 ◼   ► you know it's a knife if I make a choice

00:24:28 ◼   ► then at least that's slightly better and

00:24:32 ◼   ► I think to the other thing that I was a

00:24:33 ◼   ► strategy that I was thinking about when

00:24:36 ◼   ► I was trying to think of like wow look

00:24:37 ◼   ► what's the actual like you know DV end

00:24:39 ◼   ► advice to give at the end of this

00:24:40 ◼   ► episode and I think the other thing is

00:24:43 ◼   ► to try and understand why you don't want

00:24:46 ◼   ► to do it because a it's probably useful

00:24:51 ◼   ► to make sure like is this actually

00:24:53 ◼   ► something that I need to do like am i

00:24:54 ◼   ► avoiding it because I don't think it's

00:24:56 ◼   ► actually a good feature alright because

00:24:57 ◼   ► I don't think it's actually gonna be

00:24:59 ◼   ► useful or like I'm doing it for the

00:25:01 ◼   ► wrong reason like I'm doing this feature

00:25:03 ◼   ► because I think is like it's what all

00:25:05 ◼   ► the cool kids are doing but it's not

00:25:07 ◼   ► really isn't fit with the style of my

00:25:08 ◼   ► app or something like that for example

00:25:10 ◼   ► like if you're adding it right you're

00:25:12 ◼   ► adding this feature because you think

00:25:14 ◼   ► Apple will love you because you're

00:25:16 ◼   ► implementing a new API or something like

00:25:18 ◼   ► if it's for a reason that's external

00:25:20 ◼   ► like that like make sure that it's you

00:25:22 ◼   ► internally actually want to do it

00:25:24 ◼   ► because if you don't like sometimes

00:25:26 ◼   ► there are certainly things that are

00:25:27 ◼   ► externally you know foisted on you that

00:25:29 ◼   ► you have no choice about like you have

00:25:30 ◼   ► to follow your taxes with the IRS every

00:25:32 ◼   ► year like otherwise really bad things

00:25:34 ◼   ► happen but not implementing the hot new

00:25:37 ◼   ► API the Apple isn't gonna come knocking

00:25:40 ◼   ► on your door in the same way so being

00:25:43 ◼   ► aware of that and making sure that it is

00:25:45 ◼   ► something that you need to do and you

00:25:46 ◼   ► actually should do and if if that is the

00:25:49 ◼   ► case then like what is it about it that

00:25:51 ◼   ► makes it scary you know like for me in

00:25:54 ◼   ► this case like what I've come to

00:25:55 ◼   ► understand is that I just point out but

00:25:57 ◼   ► with guts what made me scared is that it

00:26:01 ◼   ► felt like something that I couldn't wrap

00:26:03 ◼   ► my arms around like it was the sister of

00:26:04 ◼   ► this slightly too big problem and so to

00:26:07 ◼   ► get started like what I did this morning

00:26:08 ◼   ► when I got she got started on working on

00:26:10 ◼   ► it is I said okay I'm not gonna worry

00:26:13 ◼   ► about like this crew this crazy

00:26:15 ◼   ► complexity tree that I'm about to have

00:26:17 ◼   ► to go down I'm just gonna worry about

00:26:19 ◼   ► the first step I'm just going to do this

00:26:21 ◼   ► thing I'm gonna get that going and then

00:26:24 ◼   ► that was a lot less scary and then from

00:26:27 ◼   ► here you know I'll implement the next

00:26:28 ◼   ► screen and then some of the next screen

00:26:30 ◼   ► and in the back of my mind like there's

00:26:32 ◼   ► that little part of me that says you

00:26:34 ◼   ► know Dave there's probably gonna be like

00:26:35 ◼   ► 2030 screens you're gonna have to

00:26:37 ◼   ► implement to make this work like isn't

00:26:39 ◼   ► that crazy and scary

00:26:40 ◼   ► and it's just like consciously saying to

00:26:42 ◼   ► myself like it's okay I'm just gonna

00:26:44 ◼   ► worry about this one right now I know

00:26:46 ◼   ► and and that made it a little bit better

00:26:48 ◼   ► for me and maybe just it's like it's a

00:26:49 ◼   ► little bit silly that I'm you know I'm a

00:26:50 ◼   ► grown man but I have to like you know

00:26:53 ◼   ► coach myself through doing my job but

00:26:55 ◼   ► that's where I am and so like whatever

00:26:58 ◼   ► that's that's who I am and I found that

00:27:00 ◼   ► it works and you know to break it down

00:27:02 ◼   ► into something that's slightly less

00:27:04 ◼   ► scary when I was able to realize that

00:27:06 ◼   ► the thing that made it scary was how big

00:27:07 ◼   ► it was

00:27:08 ◼   ► yeah that's really good way to look at

00:27:10 ◼   ► it because you know I think part of one

00:27:12 ◼   ► of the biggest challenges of indie work

00:27:15 ◼   ► is that humans really like the the boss

00:27:18 ◼   ► effect goes away mostly you know there

00:27:20 ◼   ► are external deadlines and imposes like

00:27:23 ◼   ► you know when a new iPhone comes out and

00:27:25 ◼   ► stuff like that but for the most part

00:27:26 ◼   ► like the boss goes away and and so you

00:27:29 ◼   ► have to really get to know yourself and

00:27:31 ◼   ► get to know you know like the same

00:27:34 ◼   ► basically what your bosses always did

00:27:37 ◼   ► when you had jobs which is like figure

00:27:40 ◼   ► out how you know how you work figure out

00:27:42 ◼   ► what you're motivated by what you're not

00:27:44 ◼   ► motivated by and figure out how to

00:27:46 ◼   ► manage your motivation levels and how to

00:27:48 ◼   ► get how to get good work out of you your

00:27:50 ◼   ► bosses I think you know our bosses

00:27:52 ◼   ► throughout our jobs always had to figure

00:27:53 ◼   ► that about us now that is gone and we

00:27:56 ◼   ► have to figure that about ourselves and

00:27:57 ◼   ► we have to start learning how you know

00:27:59 ◼   ► how we fail what motivates us what

00:28:03 ◼   ► doesn't and how to get good work out of

00:28:05 ◼   ► ourselves and because there's no one

00:28:06 ◼   ► else to do it then you know you're you

00:28:08 ◼   ► know when you're on your own the way we

00:28:09 ◼   ► are like you have to be the person to

00:28:14 ◼   ► motivate yourself in some way now and

00:28:17 ◼   ► and manage the way you work and find a

00:28:19 ◼   ► way to get good output out of yourself

00:28:21 ◼   ► just despite your flaws yeah and I think

00:28:25 ◼   ► too it's the importance of not beating

00:28:27 ◼   ► yourself up about it as you learn and

00:28:30 ◼   ► discover and are able to sort of better

00:28:33 ◼   ► manage yourself because I know that is

00:28:36 ◼   ► something that I have struggled with a

00:28:37 ◼   ► lot is that I feel like my biggest

00:28:40 ◼   ► impostor syndrome moments come at these

00:28:43 ◼   ► times when I am struggling with

00:28:45 ◼   ► motivation and I feel like as like wow I

00:28:48 ◼   ► did not get anything done this week like

00:28:50 ◼   ► what I Who am I kidding I'm not anything

00:28:52 ◼   ► like I'm not there's no way I'm gonna be

00:28:53 ◼   ► a successful

00:28:54 ◼   ► belapur there's no way I'm gonna be able

00:28:55 ◼   ► to make a living of this and like this

00:28:57 ◼   ► is the things that I tell myself like

00:28:59 ◼   ► now eight years on into this process and

00:29:01 ◼   ► I think it's the importance of Mike

00:29:03 ◼   ► don't don't beat yourself up about it

00:29:04 ◼   ► like this is just the process just try

00:29:07 ◼   ► and be patient with yourself and

00:29:08 ◼   ► understand that this is a process you

00:29:10 ◼   ► have to actively manage that doesn't

00:29:12 ◼   ► happen on its own it's not like this

00:29:13 ◼   ► magic thing and there are people who

00:29:15 ◼   ► just like are always productive it's

00:29:17 ◼   ► like the people who are probably the

00:29:18 ◼   ► most productive or just the people who

00:29:19 ◼   ► understand what makes them unproductive

00:29:22 ◼   ► the most and have strategies around

00:29:24 ◼   ► minimizing those things over time and

00:29:26 ◼   ► like that's what makes them those that's

00:29:29 ◼   ► what makes them productive is by just

00:29:31 ◼   ► being aware of themselves and managing

00:29:33 ◼   ► themselves accordingly

00:29:34 ◼   ► Thanks listening everybody will talk to

00:29:36 ◼   ► you next week bye