Under the Radar

Under the Radar 83: Live at CocoaConf


00:00:01   [Applause]

00:00:07   [Music]

00:00:08   welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:11   independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:13   Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:15   the radar it's never longer than 30

00:00:16   minutes so let's get started so this is

00:00:19   a first time for us we are in a room

00:00:21   with other people who are looking at us

00:00:25   I think which is a little bit

00:00:27   intimidating but you know I'm sure we'll

00:00:30   make our way through and doing a live

00:00:31   show with a hard time cap just for added

00:00:35   extra difficulty just for fun but yeah

00:00:38   it's an exciting week it's WDC week and

00:00:41   it is an interesting year this is having

00:00:45   go home enjoy everybody see since 2009

00:00:47   that was my my first year and every year

00:00:50   there's sort of a different theme or a

00:00:52   different flavor to the show and I think

00:00:55   when I was trying to listen for it I

00:00:57   think the phrase that Apple used many

00:00:59   times to indicate what the theme was

00:01:01   this year was technology and refinements

00:01:05   that in general what they were doing

00:01:07   were either introducing new technologies

00:01:10   all of their machine learning stuff or

00:01:13   that type of thing or it's a lot of

00:01:16   refinements it's lots of little things

00:01:18   and as I'm in some ways I like that as a

00:01:21   developer like it's not one of these

00:01:22   years where if there's this overwhelming

00:01:25   sense of like there goes my summer I'll

00:01:28   never see my children again all these

00:01:30   terrible things like it's au summer

00:01:32   where it's like okay I've got work to do

00:01:33   there's stuff to be done but overall

00:01:36   unless you're in an area where one of

00:01:39   these brand new like totally new

00:01:42   technology is relevant for you you're

00:01:45   just gonna be tweaking stuff making

00:01:47   things a little bit better which is nice

00:01:50   and say in some ways and maybe it's nice

00:01:52   to have a year off from just a crew this

00:01:56   crazy sprint or this whole new platform

00:01:58   or anything like that because especially

00:02:00   even some of the side platforms got

00:02:03   almost no changes at all which so it's

00:02:06   like okay I don't need to worry about

00:02:07   that I can just do some basic changes to

00:02:09   get going

00:02:10   yeah I mean you know it's every every

00:02:12   year when we have this this happened to

00:02:15   us this kino thing every year there's

00:02:18   you know it's it's a question mark of

00:02:19   how much work will have in the summer

00:02:20   time as you said and and there's as the

00:02:24   app store and as these platforms have

00:02:25   gotten more and more mature the advances

00:02:29   have gotten more and more specialized

00:02:30   you know you're you see things being

00:02:33   added every year that only makes sense

00:02:35   for a narrow subset of app types and if

00:02:37   your app happens to be one of those

00:02:39   things then you have you know new things

00:02:41   you can do and you know as time goes on

00:02:44   more and more of the advances are of

00:02:46   that type rather than things that we all

00:02:48   have to now suddenly deal with like when

00:02:50   the you know the big iOS 7 redesigned

00:02:51   that's like wow everyone has to deal

00:02:53   with that or when major features to the

00:02:55   OS we're still being added on a regular

00:02:57   basis and you know things like

00:02:58   notifications and like the you know bits

00:03:00   that was like things that we all really

00:03:01   had things to do about and and had you

00:03:04   know potential new thing for our apps to

00:03:06   do and major new areas of markets that

00:03:08   would open up and that just really

00:03:09   hasn't happened a lot recently because

00:03:11   these platforms are maturing you know

00:03:12   that that type of innovation just is

00:03:14   slowing down by necessity because these

00:03:16   things are getting you know more and

00:03:17   more you know just mature and better

00:03:19   around it so you know as you mentioned

00:03:20   it I think it's worth pointing out that

00:03:22   basically I think if you if your app

00:03:24   runs on the watch the TV or in messages

00:03:27   I don't think you have much to do I

00:03:30   think you kind of get you know a

00:03:32   vacation summer if your app if you were

00:03:36   waiting on a particular sirikit intent

00:03:38   that didn't exist last year you still

00:03:41   probably don't have books to do because

00:03:43   there weren't that many edit my summer

00:03:45   is much more free than I thought it

00:03:47   would be you can make a new app I hear

00:03:50   it's really fun let me tell you a lot of

00:03:53   experience yeah yeah yeah you know I was

00:03:57   hoping for the audio Sirikit intent and

00:04:00   that didn't come and you know maybe I'll

00:04:02   get it next year maybe not who knows but

00:04:05   for the moat and I was also expecting a

00:04:07   a large redesign of iOS or at least a

00:04:10   moderate scale redesign and I think what

00:04:13   we got was more along the lines of the

00:04:16   iOS 6 redesign like most people and

00:04:18   remember like it you know but iOS 5 to 6

00:04:20   like 6 actually did step back a lot of

00:04:22   that skeuomorph is

00:04:23   it was like a half step of a redesign

00:04:25   and I think we got a similar scale

00:04:28   redesigned with this so we now have like

00:04:30   those new giant header text bars that I

00:04:34   honestly I'm not a big fan of right now

00:04:35   but maybe I get used to them

00:04:37   and it's kind of unclear as to look

00:04:39   whether we all should redesign our apps

00:04:42   like this or not sometimes when Apple

00:04:45   does UI chrome changes sometimes it only

00:04:48   ends up being important for Apple's apps

00:04:50   you know there are certain UI

00:04:52   conventions that you see them and you

00:04:55   think oh that's a system app and in back

00:04:57   in the olden days it was kind of it was

00:04:59   a design goal it considered a good

00:05:01   design to try to make your app look like

00:05:03   the system apps but I think the window

00:05:05   of time where that was true is fairly

00:05:07   short and that it quickly after that

00:05:09   that became more trendy to like have

00:05:13   your own identity your own visual design

00:05:15   and designers kind of started taking

00:05:17   over the world and and really you know

00:05:20   it became better design or better

00:05:23   respected design to not use the system

00:05:26   stock stuff or to use it very loosely

00:05:28   and to really heavily style it your own

00:05:30   way

00:05:30   so if you design your app now to use

00:05:33   this new you know big you know h2 style

00:05:36   yeah big unstyled header taking up half

00:05:39   the top of the screen if you do that

00:05:41   with your apps it it might end up being

00:05:44   considered a good design and might look

00:05:46   weird if you don't adopt that you know

00:05:47   six months from now but it also might

00:05:50   just be that's how the boring system

00:05:51   apps look and it'd be weird if your app

00:05:52   looks like that you know we don't really

00:05:54   know yet but I would say the scale of

00:05:56   the redesign that we have is not really

00:05:59   something that forces us all to

00:06:01   immediately start taking action with our

00:06:03   own designs to try to get close to it no

00:06:05   and I think too it's when I see a change

00:06:07   like that I always try and think of what

00:06:09   is Apple trying to point us towards and

00:06:14   in many ways I think the action for that

00:06:16   particular design like you like it or

00:06:18   you don't like it but it seems like they

00:06:20   are de-emphasizing information density

00:06:23   yeah and saying that well verticals like

00:06:27   this essentially vertical real estate on

00:06:28   the screen is

00:06:30   not at a premium anymore that you can

00:06:33   just essentially throw away the top like

00:06:35   10% of the screen which is what that

00:06:38   near this new navigation bar looks like

00:06:41   and that's fine which maybe is

00:06:43   indicative that you know taller screens

00:06:45   are coming or just in general there's

00:06:46   sort of this emphasis towards let's

00:06:48   smush things down and you know take

00:06:52   advantage of the size of the screen in

00:06:54   that way so maybe even if it's not

00:06:56   necessarily adopting what Apple is doing

00:06:57   it's just saying that's the direction

00:06:59   that they're leading towards because I

00:07:01   think in many ways at WC one of the fun

00:07:04   games I tried and play is they like what

00:07:06   are they not saying but they're kind of

00:07:09   saying because usually there's these

00:07:12   clues and these hints that they're kind

00:07:13   of poking towards that are well in

00:07:17   retrospect either with new hardware or

00:07:20   just in or even just next year wEDC will

00:07:22   make more sense you know these little

00:07:24   things that they're pointing to so

00:07:25   that's something that I think of how

00:07:27   when I see these sort of like subtle

00:07:29   design things and like there seems to be

00:07:30   an emphasis on dynamic type this year

00:07:32   which is again all about in some ways

00:07:34   being less specific about information

00:07:38   density then it's like being played it's

00:07:40   like being making your app cool when it

00:07:42   has gigantic fonts like that's a it's a

00:07:45   good accessibility feature but it seems

00:07:46   like just in general they're trying to

00:07:48   move away from that kind of a you know

00:07:51   very dense display yeah and it's you

00:07:54   know they're doing that in these apps

00:07:56   you know in the system apps and

00:07:58   everything and and you we can speculate

00:07:59   there that probably is because of maybe

00:08:00   some bigger you know taller screen phone

00:08:02   coming this fall as all the rumor things

00:08:04   have pointed out but there's also a huge

00:08:07   install base of phones where that's

00:08:08   might not look good on you know the the

00:08:10   SE is selling really well I mean I don't

00:08:12   know like like my metrics on my app and

00:08:14   granted the odds it's a podcast app

00:08:16   listened to mostly by nerds so it's not

00:08:18   gonna be representative of the entire

00:08:19   market but you know my my app is

00:08:21   basically split like 45 45 10 between

00:08:24   the three screen sizes of phones right

00:08:26   now it's really it's like you know

00:08:28   really like a lot of people using the

00:08:30   plus phone a lot of people are using the

00:08:32   you know seven size phone but then also

00:08:34   you know 10 percent or so are using the

00:08:36   se size phone and that's not a small

00:08:40   number like that's like I can

00:08:41   make the interface terrible or unusable

00:08:44   or suck for that 10% like that's and and

00:08:47   the 10% is not going down it's like like

00:08:50   you know it when the SE came out it kind

00:08:52   of boosted and leveled that number and

00:08:54   so we have to account like we can't just

00:08:57   say like oh our designs have to look

00:08:58   good on the phone that comes out this

00:09:00   fall that might have a weirdly tall

00:09:02   screen it also has to look good on

00:09:04   everything else so it's a it's a fairly

00:09:06   aggressive new design philosophy that we

00:09:08   might pragmatically not want to take

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00:10:47   as cool as all the actual technologies

00:10:50   and API and SDKs are the thing that

00:10:52   anyway the thing I was most excited

00:10:53   about is the new app store app that see

00:10:57   to me that's a huge question mark you

00:10:59   know I'm excited for I'm excited that

00:11:01   it's changed

00:11:02   I mean I'm slightly terrified as well

00:11:04   yes by the change but I'm excited yeah

00:11:08   any change of the app store should

00:11:09   terrify all of us because it basically

00:11:11   means that whatever our business is now

00:11:14   however the app store is serving us now

00:11:15   it's probably going to change

00:11:17   dramatically this fall we don't know in

00:11:18   which direction yeah you know think if

00:11:20   they change the search algorithms that

00:11:22   can make a huge difference for a lot of

00:11:23   us of you know how what our what our

00:11:24   sales are if they change things like

00:11:27   what a feature is worth which they have

00:11:30   here you know they like the new app

00:11:32   store has a much lower information

00:11:35   density as you mentioned earlier with

00:11:37   info density a change it's a much lower

00:11:39   information density and they've kind of

00:11:41   been going towards this in you know the

00:11:43   recent like search redesigns and

00:11:44   everything in the last couple years but

00:11:45   now like the whole store is like that

00:11:47   where you basically have like giant

00:11:49   screen filling cards for apps and so

00:11:53   there's no more like big list screens

00:11:55   where you get a million of them on

00:11:55   screen at once so basically the the

00:11:59   number of featured spots appears to have

00:12:01   decreased dramatically but each one is

00:12:03   now worth a lot more and I don't know

00:12:06   what you know whether they're gonna have

00:12:07   like different levels like subdirectory

00:12:09   levels inside of it or that are more you

00:12:11   know high density or whatever but the

00:12:13   main app store features are now very

00:12:15   very few but very valuable and so if you

00:12:20   get one it's probably awesome but I

00:12:22   think your chances of getting one are

00:12:23   not reduced so it's it's kind of a I

00:12:25   don't know what to think yet about it

00:12:27   they are so they're changing more often

00:12:30   they're gonna be every day instead of

00:12:31   like every Thursday they've been that

00:12:32   they've been updating some of the other

00:12:33   editorial sections so that's nice for a

00:12:35   lot but like how many of us are ever

00:12:37   gonna get one of those feature blocks

00:12:38   like it seems like it's an interesting

00:12:42   change I'm glad they're changing it but

00:12:45   I don't if I had to guess I'm not sure

00:12:47   it's gonna benefit most people when I

00:12:50   see it though when I what I like is that

00:12:52   it changes the my goal for what the app

00:12:57   store my app store page my app store

00:13:00   presence in a way that I find slightly

00:13:02   motivating I guess is

00:13:03   like my goal is now to I would say

00:13:07   recently for the maybe the last couple

00:13:08   of years I have cared less about being

00:13:11   featured because the way the App Store

00:13:13   is now it doesn't actually have a huge

00:13:16   impact on downloads it's nice like

00:13:19   emotionally like if I get featured it

00:13:22   feels really good and that's awesome you

00:13:24   know like hooray but in my experience

00:13:26   like it's actually a fairly minor impact

00:13:28   on downloads which is I think a largely

00:13:32   to do just with the way that you go to

00:13:34   the future tab right now and you'll

00:13:36   probably see you know there's at least

00:13:39   2030 apps on that screen at once and so

00:13:42   if you're one of those like that's not

00:13:45   nearly as impactful and when I see this

00:13:47   it's it's kind of nice that now instead

00:13:51   it's you know if you are the app of the

00:13:54   day and it's nice to like well you said

00:13:56   like it's gonna be hard to get it there

00:13:57   are still three hundred and sixty five

00:13:59   of those a year when in different

00:14:01   countries - it's you know it's not gonna

00:14:02   be just one a day it's gonna be probably

00:14:04   like one per country or territory per

00:14:06   day yeah and if it if you are that app

00:14:08   like if you sort of win that lottery

00:14:09   like you are doing I imagine that will

00:14:13   have a substantial impact that if the

00:14:14   home tab of the App Store app has a

00:14:17   giant fullscreen ad for your app like

00:14:20   either your app is really bad or like

00:14:24   you're gonna have a good day and so I'm

00:14:26   really excited about that as a goal and

00:14:29   as a motivation and it's nice to kind of

00:14:32   have snow in the back of my mind that

00:14:33   like my goal is to do things that will

00:14:35   get me onto that tab and I can do things

00:14:39   that are within my control to make that

00:14:40   happen you know I can and getting like

00:14:43   it's nice that I feel like it will

00:14:45   actually have an impact it is gonna I

00:14:47   think that would be very much a rich get

00:14:49   richer and a poor get poorer kind of a

00:14:51   situation like I've been playing with it

00:14:53   a little bit on the beta and if you

00:14:57   don't like the search area is still I

00:15:00   mean the search area - is much less

00:15:02   dense than it used to be but like the

00:15:04   actual and the new apps tab like is very

00:15:07   very focused on just the very very top -

00:15:11   stuff and if you're not one of those

00:15:13   apps if you're not that like the

00:15:15   in some ways they took the top charts

00:15:16   and rather than being a chart it

00:15:18   basically just shows the top three apps

00:15:20   or the top four apps now like that's a

00:15:22   pretty narrow thing like the top three

00:15:25   apps is probably gonna be Facebook

00:15:27   Instagram and snapchat or something like

00:15:29   that for a long time like there's no way

00:15:33   my app is ever going to break into into

00:15:36   that area but I think more generally I

00:15:39   love the feeling that over the last year

00:15:41   we've had at least a half dozen

00:15:44   substantial you know sort of business

00:15:47   and App Store improvements that make me

00:15:50   feel as someone who makes my living in

00:15:52   this world that this is you know like

00:15:55   this is a lively platform that I can be

00:15:59   learning to get better on because like

00:16:02   back in the early days of the App Store

00:16:04   like in some ways it reminds me of those

00:16:05   early days where one of the ways that I

00:16:08   remember being able to sort of get my

00:16:11   search sort of where I was trying to

00:16:13   stand up my business was by being a

00:16:15   student of the App Store by trying to

00:16:16   understand how it works how I can

00:16:19   optimize what I'm doing to work well

00:16:21   there and now that it's this brand new

00:16:23   thing it's like that starts all over

00:16:24   again

00:16:25   like all the summer I can try and work

00:16:27   on like what do I need to make my app

00:16:29   assets look like to be to look really

00:16:32   good here like now we have auto-playing

00:16:34   videos for app previews and you can have

00:16:36   three app previews rather than one app

00:16:38   preview there's all kinds of other

00:16:40   information that we can specify we can

00:16:42   give our apps subtitles and marketing

00:16:44   copy we can promote in-app purchases

00:16:46   from on our app page like there is so

00:16:50   much there that isn't the developer side

00:16:52   that isn't that's that kind of thing but

00:16:54   I think in some ways I'm glad that

00:16:56   there's so there's relatively little to

00:16:58   do on the technology side this year that

00:17:00   I'm gonna expect to be spending most of

00:17:02   my summer just working on those assets

00:17:04   working on trying to work out how to

00:17:07   market in this new app store because it

00:17:09   is a very new and different experience I

00:17:12   mean in many ways maybe that's kind of

00:17:15   like a metaphor for what we should be

00:17:18   doing pretty much all the time with our

00:17:20   apps now like technology is way less

00:17:22   important than it's ever been for our

00:17:23   apps for most of what we do

00:17:25   and the marketing side in the app store

00:17:27   and getting you know getting the all

00:17:30   that metadata right and and good and you

00:17:33   know all these new ways you know like

00:17:34   they added a preview videos before it

00:17:35   now they're more emphasized and there's

00:17:38   more of them and you basically have more

00:17:41   in the app store that you need to apply

00:17:44   reasonable production value to you know

00:17:46   be in the olden days it was basically

00:17:48   just an icon and maybe some design

00:17:50   inside your app but you could get away

00:17:52   with not much else and you know now like

00:17:54   that's a lot of long since been

00:17:56   surpassed as the table stakes and now

00:17:58   you need like you need to consider

00:18:00   things like your copy

00:18:01   although whoever reads it but you at

00:18:03   least consider your title and and your

00:18:05   screenshots have to be really good and

00:18:07   and as we discuss in the past like

00:18:08   people keep you know shoving more stuff

00:18:11   into screenshots it isn't just a

00:18:12   screenshot it's like oh here's a fake

00:18:13   phone spanning over the two frames and

00:18:15   big marketing text above it and

00:18:17   everything and so it like the the

00:18:19   production value that is required to

00:18:21   succeed in the app store is going up and

00:18:23   in some ways that's going to be a burden

00:18:25   it's gonna be burden on a lot of us

00:18:26   especially people who have smaller

00:18:28   budgets for that sort of thing and can

00:18:30   do that themselves their own skills

00:18:32   that's gonna raise the cost of a

00:18:34   succeeding in the App Store but I think

00:18:36   we were already headed in that direction

00:18:37   and that was already kind of the reality

00:18:40   of the market so now we are gonna be

00:18:42   forced to do that for our apps but we

00:18:44   already really were and if we're willing

00:18:47   to put in that extra effort to do things

00:18:49   like get a nice at preview video and put

00:18:52   some effort into really optimizing the

00:18:54   way the new store pages look and the new

00:18:55   things we can do on them I think we will

00:18:57   be rewarded for that and that's you know

00:18:59   overall that's gonna matter more than if

00:19:02   we spend an extra eight hours coding a

00:19:03   feature that not a lot of people

00:19:05   actually going to use or care about yeah

00:19:07   and it changes it's like it makes me

00:19:10   really nervous to have to have to make

00:19:14   my App Store page super pretty but on

00:19:17   the flip side it's like that's an

00:19:18   attainable goal that is something that I

00:19:20   can work that I can definitely would

00:19:21   definitively work towards and to make

00:19:23   happen and it's not unreasonable that

00:19:27   like in some ways it's nice when we were

00:19:29   able to get away with

00:19:30   that but that seems like that is less

00:19:32   and less the case and we can now reset

00:19:36   our reviews with our ratings i rated

00:19:39   whatever we want so we finally got that

00:19:41   like awesome like years ago that was on

00:19:43   my list of you know when i had my like

00:19:45   12 my like my 12 things I wanted to

00:19:48   change in the App Store that was back

00:19:49   then and now we finally got it and like

00:19:51   these little changes like that are just

00:19:53   super exciting as a you know as a

00:19:55   developer Apple is clearly trying to

00:19:58   make this more viable for us yeah

00:20:02   and it's one thing I wonder about like

00:20:05   you mentioned before like the value of a

00:20:06   feature seems to have been going down in

00:20:08   recent years it seems I think

00:20:10   industry-wide we've seen this kind of

00:20:12   slowdown of people willing to just

00:20:14   browse for new apps and just install

00:20:16   them easily like the cost per install if

00:20:19   you're trying to get you know if you're

00:20:20   measuring that kind of thing that has

00:20:20   been going up over the last few years

00:20:22   and I wonder like do I bet Apple is

00:20:26   probably doing a lot of these changes to

00:20:27   the App Store and let the new daily

00:20:28   features and cleaning it all up and

00:20:29   everything that they're trying probably

00:20:31   do this to increase the the number of

00:20:33   times that people go to the App Store

00:20:35   just casually like what we used to do in

00:20:36   the old days like when the after was new

00:20:38   and we just like go there when we were

00:20:41   bored and just find some new apps and

00:20:43   download them and I think a lot of

00:20:44   people did that and these days a lot of

00:20:45   people don't so Apple is obviously

00:20:48   trying to push the market in this

00:20:49   direction to to go back to doing that

00:20:51   but it might not succeed like this

00:20:53   actually might not happen so it's really

00:20:55   kind of up in the air like putting all

00:20:57   this effort into your app store page is

00:20:59   gonna become table stakes but we don't

00:21:01   know actually how much it'll pay off yet

00:21:04   sure I mean that's always the case but

00:21:06   the reality is for a year this is the

00:21:08   App Store that we're gonna have to make

00:21:11   work for our businesses and so yeah it's

00:21:13   like one way or the other this is what

00:21:15   we got so we just sort of do our best

00:21:17   and hang on for the ride I did before we

00:21:20   run out of time I did want to talk a

00:21:21   little bit about the iPad advances and

00:21:24   not in too many specifics but basically

00:21:26   the iPad soph you know like every year

00:21:29   we try to figure out like what kind of

00:21:31   new apps are now made possible by

00:21:34   whatever they announced you know what

00:21:35   can we you know not only what additional

00:21:37   features can we add to our existing apps

00:21:39   but what

00:21:40   new markets will now exist because

00:21:42   that's often a place where you can reap

00:21:43   good rewards if you're you know and you

00:21:45   you mean a lot of your career off that

00:21:47   is my career like you know go it like

00:21:48   going to where new territory has just

00:21:51   opened up and just being the first one

00:21:53   there with a decent app yeah and that

00:21:55   you will often reap rewards from that

00:21:57   now it's not guaranteed but it's often

00:21:59   the case and there's often fewer people

00:22:01   there on day one than you think there

00:22:02   will be so what's new this year and I

00:22:05   think that there's not a whole lot of

00:22:06   like brand new like complete areas but

00:22:08   the iPad redesign and the new

00:22:11   productivity features in the iPad I

00:22:13   think will be one of these areas the big

00:22:15   you know a lot of a lot of iPad pro app

00:22:18   makers I've had a hard time making

00:22:20   economics work out and the question is

00:22:23   not like whether you can't sell software

00:22:26   for a good price on the iPad I think the

00:22:28   question is like are there enough people

00:22:30   doing pro work on the iPad that that

00:22:33   will be seeking out an app like yours

00:22:35   and that to me goes down to like how

00:22:37   many people are using the iPad for their

00:22:39   work and before it was cumbersome to do

00:22:43   a lot of these things you know you could

00:22:44   do it and we know people who do but it

00:22:46   was there was a lot of friction and now

00:22:48   they have reduced a lot of that friction

00:22:50   and really broken down a lot of the

00:22:52   barriers and made a lot of the iPad UI

00:22:54   you know more Mac like and and you know

00:22:56   don't don't say that but that's really

00:22:58   what they did and so now I think a lot

00:23:01   more people will be doing work on the

00:23:03   iPad than than before so I think that

00:23:05   might create more of a market for iPad

00:23:08   pro software than we had before

00:23:10   and it's not to say that like you can go

00:23:12   in with an iOS level price you know if

00:23:14   you go if you're thinking of like

00:23:16   developing pro software on the Mac and

00:23:19   you sell your pro up on the Mac for a

00:23:21   hundred bucks and that succeeds for you

00:23:23   you can't go to the iPad and sell it for

00:23:25   ten bucks and expect to have the same

00:23:26   success you know you're gonna have to

00:23:29   like charge more and it's gonna have to

00:23:31   be worth more for people just like on

00:23:33   the Mac you know they're making it more

00:23:35   Mac like but I do think that's a market

00:23:37   that did not exist very strongly before

00:23:40   and now I think that's gonna be a bigger

00:23:42   market because the iPad is now such a

00:23:44   better tool for getting work done in

00:23:47   them in a professional capacity or

00:23:48   really honestly any capacity like email

00:23:51   it's like it's so much easier and how

00:23:53   that I was before I think there's gonna

00:23:55   potentially be a bigger market there

00:23:57   than there was so maybe maybe the place

00:24:00   to be this year isn't some new extension

00:24:03   type that became available in iOS or

00:24:04   something else maybe the place to be

00:24:05   this year is boring productivity apps on

00:24:08   the iPad

00:24:08   maybe I mean the thing that's I I

00:24:11   struggle a little bit like I'm excited

00:24:13   what the iPad changes because an AI know

00:24:17   I have I have many friends who love the

00:24:20   iPad and are just yeah through the

00:24:21   through the roof about this like I was

00:24:23   sitting next to Federico vtg during the

00:24:25   keynote and like like there was a glow

00:24:29   coming off of him for the entire show

00:24:31   because he was so excited and like that

00:24:33   is really cool I mean as it just as a

00:24:35   developer I love like I got I gotta

00:24:37   imagine the iPad team who'd made me

00:24:39   those features love hearing the feedback

00:24:41   of these people who are so genuinely

00:24:42   excited about it and it's like I like

00:24:45   that's there I'm still nervous that

00:24:48   whether about whether or not it will be

00:24:50   enough to it's like you have such this

00:24:53   chicken-and-egg problem with the iPad

00:24:55   you know where if a Polly into the

00:25:01   platform to make it to have that

00:25:04   richness of ecosystem it is a really

00:25:06   interesting and compelling device and

00:25:08   when the iPad first came out like

00:25:09   whatever that was four or five six years

00:25:12   ago like it was a pretty good place to

00:25:15   be an app developer like I made a

00:25:18   substantial part of my business working

00:25:20   on the iPad for years and then it just

00:25:23   kind of fell off and in many ways it

00:25:25   kind of fell off with apples sales graph

00:25:27   you know like the iPad sells less and

00:25:29   less every year my hope is that what

00:25:32   Apple is doing with these kinds of

00:25:33   changes is if they can pull that back

00:25:37   and kind of have an inflection point

00:25:39   where it suddenly it gets a little bit

00:25:41   more traction it's all these things that

00:25:43   were just a little bit too difficult

00:25:45   before now become that little bit more

00:25:47   easy and are now more possible maybe

00:25:50   we'll get there and if they do then like

00:25:51   that's interesting and I could

00:25:52   definitely see transitioning my focus a

00:25:54   bit back towards the iPad because

00:25:56   honestly recently it hasn't been there

00:25:58   at all

00:26:00   and I like the iPad like it's an

00:26:02   interesting platform in that respect but

00:26:04   there's such this tricky tricky tricky

00:26:05   thing when the iPhone is so viable as an

00:26:09   app platform that the iPad could be

00:26:13   viable as an app platform but if it

00:26:16   isn't it's like and if lots of

00:26:18   developers don't go there it won't be

00:26:20   but lots of developers going there won't

00:26:23   make it viable and so you end it's very

00:26:25   circular and I'm still of two minds as

00:26:28   to whether like this I'm not sure if

00:26:30   this year I'll be focusing much on the

00:26:33   iPad or if it's one of those like

00:26:35   wait-and-see you know have a couple of

00:26:37   quarters of sales to see if the iPad

00:26:40   sales are starting to come back out

00:26:41   waiting to see if there's sort of an

00:26:43   uptick on things because I don't know

00:26:46   it's a heart it's it's I want to be

00:26:47   excited but I'm like of all the things

00:26:50   that announced it's like I'm excited but

00:26:52   I'm much more cautiously excited than I

00:26:54   am on a lot of the other platforms and

00:26:56   you know sort of the ways that they're

00:26:57   apples trying to push us this year yeah

00:27:00   I think that's probably probably a safe

00:27:01   bet because like with the iPad stuff

00:27:03   like you never really know until like a

00:27:05   year or two later like what what swing

00:27:08   the market has taken you know it's it's

00:27:10   a lagging indicator and and a lot of

00:27:12   these new iPad productivity gains are

00:27:14   only gonna be compelling or widely used

00:27:18   on pretty high-end pretty recent iPads

00:27:20   which is not a large slice of the market

00:27:22   and so we really won't know yet so I

00:27:25   guess yeah I guess I agree with you it's

00:27:26   probably a little bit risky to jump in

00:27:27   right now but but I do think like

00:27:30   there's something about the iPad that

00:27:32   people love it like they tangibly love

00:27:36   this device they want to use it more and

00:27:38   the story I hear over and over again is

00:27:40   I would love to get more work done or

00:27:42   I'd love to use this thing more but I

00:27:44   just it's just I can't do what I need to

00:27:45   do or it's too cumbersome or whatever

00:27:47   else so I think there's something there

00:27:49   and I think people will try really hard

00:27:51   to make it work for them again now that

00:27:53   we have radically new capabilities I

00:27:55   mean when I when I OS 9 launched with

00:27:57   the multitasking for the first time that

00:27:59   converted a ton of iPad skeptics over

00:28:02   into being iPad lovers and iPad workers

00:28:05   and now there's there's another step

00:28:08   probably of that magnitude or even more

00:28:10   so

00:28:11   I think might do that same thing the

00:28:13   only question is will it stick or will

00:28:15   it be a fad and it's it's hard to base

00:28:19   major business decisions on that yeah

00:28:21   and it's you know I think I said I'm in

00:28:25   might maybe it's like I've been doing

00:28:27   this long enough that I'm sad I have an

00:28:29   increase i've increasingly have a sense

00:28:31   of sort of caution about those kinds of

00:28:33   things which in many ways and is

00:28:35   probably to my detriment in it I'm very

00:28:38   aware of the fact that I probably

00:28:40   wouldn't be able to have a sustainable

00:28:43   business at this point if I was cautious

00:28:45   in the past that in some ways it's going

00:28:48   to take developers making kind of

00:28:50   reckless and sort of slightly you know

00:28:54   wild decisions to pursue and push the

00:28:57   boundaries on the iPad for the iPad to

00:28:59   be a viable platform and I will say one

00:29:01   thing that Apple does tends to do well

00:29:02   is they if you if developers do go down

00:29:07   that road they tend to yo they're good

00:29:09   at recognizing them and promoting them

00:29:11   and at helping them you know that if you

00:29:12   all right everybody see this week and

00:29:15   you go down to a lab and you're trying

00:29:16   to you're trying to do something or you

00:29:17   want to reach out to developer relations

00:29:18   and you're having a problem trying to

00:29:20   push the boundaries there's a very good

00:29:22   chance they will encourage that which

00:29:24   you know so I would encourage anybody

00:29:25   who's more adventurous than I am to dive

00:29:28   into that because I think it's it's not

00:29:30   an easy win but there's a good

00:29:31   opportunity there are you saying you

00:29:33   might make more apps it's possible

00:29:35   that's that's impressive

00:29:37   I think we're out of time this week

00:29:39   everybody so thank you very much for

00:29:41   listening and we'll see you next week

00:29:42   bye