Under the Radar

00:00:01 ◼   ► [Applause]

00:00:07 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:11 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:13 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:15 ◼   ► the radar it's never longer than 30

00:00:16 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so this is

00:00:19 ◼   ► a first time for us we are in a room

00:00:21 ◼   ► with other people who are looking at us

00:00:25 ◼   ► I think which is a little bit

00:00:27 ◼   ► intimidating but you know I'm sure we'll

00:00:30 ◼   ► make our way through and doing a live

00:00:31 ◼   ► show with a hard time cap just for added

00:00:35 ◼   ► extra difficulty just for fun but yeah

00:00:38 ◼   ► it's an exciting week it's WDC week and

00:00:41 ◼   ► it is an interesting year this is having

00:00:45 ◼   ► go home enjoy everybody see since 2009

00:00:47 ◼   ► that was my my first year and every year

00:00:50 ◼   ► there's sort of a different theme or a

00:00:52 ◼   ► different flavor to the show and I think

00:00:55 ◼   ► when I was trying to listen for it I

00:00:57 ◼   ► think the phrase that Apple used many

00:00:59 ◼   ► times to indicate what the theme was

00:01:01 ◼   ► this year was technology and refinements

00:01:05 ◼   ► that in general what they were doing

00:01:07 ◼   ► were either introducing new technologies

00:01:10 ◼   ► all of their machine learning stuff or

00:01:13 ◼   ► that type of thing or it's a lot of

00:01:16 ◼   ► refinements it's lots of little things

00:01:18 ◼   ► and as I'm in some ways I like that as a

00:01:21 ◼   ► developer like it's not one of these

00:01:22 ◼   ► years where if there's this overwhelming

00:01:25 ◼   ► sense of like there goes my summer I'll

00:01:28 ◼   ► never see my children again all these

00:01:30 ◼   ► terrible things like it's au summer

00:01:32 ◼   ► where it's like okay I've got work to do

00:01:33 ◼   ► there's stuff to be done but overall

00:01:36 ◼   ► unless you're in an area where one of

00:01:39 ◼   ► these brand new like totally new

00:01:42 ◼   ► technology is relevant for you you're

00:01:45 ◼   ► just gonna be tweaking stuff making

00:01:47 ◼   ► things a little bit better which is nice

00:01:50 ◼   ► and say in some ways and maybe it's nice

00:01:52 ◼   ► to have a year off from just a crew this

00:01:56 ◼   ► crazy sprint or this whole new platform

00:01:58 ◼   ► or anything like that because especially

00:02:00 ◼   ► even some of the side platforms got

00:02:03 ◼   ► almost no changes at all which so it's

00:02:06 ◼   ► like okay I don't need to worry about

00:02:07 ◼   ► that I can just do some basic changes to

00:02:09 ◼   ► get going

00:02:10 ◼   ► yeah I mean you know it's every every

00:02:12 ◼   ► year when we have this this happened to

00:02:15 ◼   ► us this kino thing every year there's

00:02:18 ◼   ► you know it's it's a question mark of

00:02:19 ◼   ► how much work will have in the summer

00:02:20 ◼   ► time as you said and and there's as the

00:02:24 ◼   ► app store and as these platforms have

00:02:25 ◼   ► gotten more and more mature the advances

00:02:29 ◼   ► have gotten more and more specialized

00:02:30 ◼   ► you know you're you see things being

00:02:33 ◼   ► added every year that only makes sense

00:02:35 ◼   ► for a narrow subset of app types and if

00:02:37 ◼   ► your app happens to be one of those

00:02:39 ◼   ► things then you have you know new things

00:02:41 ◼   ► you can do and you know as time goes on

00:02:44 ◼   ► more and more of the advances are of

00:02:46 ◼   ► that type rather than things that we all

00:02:48 ◼   ► have to now suddenly deal with like when

00:02:50 ◼   ► the you know the big iOS 7 redesigned

00:02:51 ◼   ► that's like wow everyone has to deal

00:02:53 ◼   ► with that or when major features to the

00:02:55 ◼   ► OS we're still being added on a regular

00:02:57 ◼   ► basis and you know things like

00:02:58 ◼   ► notifications and like the you know bits

00:03:00 ◼   ► that was like things that we all really

00:03:01 ◼   ► had things to do about and and had you

00:03:04 ◼   ► know potential new thing for our apps to

00:03:06 ◼   ► do and major new areas of markets that

00:03:08 ◼   ► would open up and that just really

00:03:09 ◼   ► hasn't happened a lot recently because

00:03:11 ◼   ► these platforms are maturing you know

00:03:12 ◼   ► that that type of innovation just is

00:03:14 ◼   ► slowing down by necessity because these

00:03:16 ◼   ► things are getting you know more and

00:03:17 ◼   ► more you know just mature and better

00:03:19 ◼   ► around it so you know as you mentioned

00:03:20 ◼   ► it I think it's worth pointing out that

00:03:22 ◼   ► basically I think if you if your app

00:03:24 ◼   ► runs on the watch the TV or in messages

00:03:27 ◼   ► I don't think you have much to do I

00:03:30 ◼   ► think you kind of get you know a

00:03:32 ◼   ► vacation summer if your app if you were

00:03:36 ◼   ► waiting on a particular sirikit intent

00:03:38 ◼   ► that didn't exist last year you still

00:03:41 ◼   ► probably don't have books to do because

00:03:43 ◼   ► there weren't that many edit my summer

00:03:45 ◼   ► is much more free than I thought it

00:03:47 ◼   ► would be you can make a new app I hear

00:03:50 ◼   ► it's really fun let me tell you a lot of

00:03:53 ◼   ► experience yeah yeah yeah you know I was

00:03:57 ◼   ► hoping for the audio Sirikit intent and

00:04:00 ◼   ► that didn't come and you know maybe I'll

00:04:02 ◼   ► get it next year maybe not who knows but

00:04:05 ◼   ► for the moat and I was also expecting a

00:04:07 ◼   ► a large redesign of iOS or at least a

00:04:10 ◼   ► moderate scale redesign and I think what

00:04:13 ◼   ► we got was more along the lines of the

00:04:16 ◼   ► iOS 6 redesign like most people and

00:04:18 ◼   ► remember like it you know but iOS 5 to 6

00:04:20 ◼   ► like 6 actually did step back a lot of

00:04:22 ◼   ► that skeuomorph is

00:04:23 ◼   ► it was like a half step of a redesign

00:04:25 ◼   ► and I think we got a similar scale

00:04:28 ◼   ► redesigned with this so we now have like

00:04:30 ◼   ► those new giant header text bars that I

00:04:34 ◼   ► honestly I'm not a big fan of right now

00:04:35 ◼   ► but maybe I get used to them

00:04:37 ◼   ► and it's kind of unclear as to look

00:04:39 ◼   ► whether we all should redesign our apps

00:04:42 ◼   ► like this or not sometimes when Apple

00:04:45 ◼   ► does UI chrome changes sometimes it only

00:04:48 ◼   ► ends up being important for Apple's apps

00:04:50 ◼   ► you know there are certain UI

00:04:52 ◼   ► conventions that you see them and you

00:04:55 ◼   ► think oh that's a system app and in back

00:04:57 ◼   ► in the olden days it was kind of it was

00:04:59 ◼   ► a design goal it considered a good

00:05:01 ◼   ► design to try to make your app look like

00:05:03 ◼   ► the system apps but I think the window

00:05:05 ◼   ► of time where that was true is fairly

00:05:07 ◼   ► short and that it quickly after that

00:05:09 ◼   ► that became more trendy to like have

00:05:13 ◼   ► your own identity your own visual design

00:05:15 ◼   ► and designers kind of started taking

00:05:17 ◼   ► over the world and and really you know

00:05:20 ◼   ► it became better design or better

00:05:23 ◼   ► respected design to not use the system

00:05:26 ◼   ► stock stuff or to use it very loosely

00:05:28 ◼   ► and to really heavily style it your own

00:05:30 ◼   ► way

00:05:30 ◼   ► so if you design your app now to use

00:05:33 ◼   ► this new you know big you know h2 style

00:05:36 ◼   ► yeah big unstyled header taking up half

00:05:39 ◼   ► the top of the screen if you do that

00:05:41 ◼   ► with your apps it it might end up being

00:05:44 ◼   ► considered a good design and might look

00:05:46 ◼   ► weird if you don't adopt that you know

00:05:47 ◼   ► six months from now but it also might

00:05:50 ◼   ► just be that's how the boring system

00:05:51 ◼   ► apps look and it'd be weird if your app

00:05:52 ◼   ► looks like that you know we don't really

00:05:54 ◼   ► know yet but I would say the scale of

00:05:56 ◼   ► the redesign that we have is not really

00:05:59 ◼   ► something that forces us all to

00:06:01 ◼   ► immediately start taking action with our

00:06:03 ◼   ► own designs to try to get close to it no

00:06:05 ◼   ► and I think too it's when I see a change

00:06:07 ◼   ► like that I always try and think of what

00:06:09 ◼   ► is Apple trying to point us towards and

00:06:14 ◼   ► in many ways I think the action for that

00:06:16 ◼   ► particular design like you like it or

00:06:18 ◼   ► you don't like it but it seems like they

00:06:20 ◼   ► are de-emphasizing information density

00:06:23 ◼   ► yeah and saying that well verticals like

00:06:27 ◼   ► this essentially vertical real estate on

00:06:28 ◼   ► the screen is

00:06:30 ◼   ► not at a premium anymore that you can

00:06:33 ◼   ► just essentially throw away the top like

00:06:35 ◼   ► 10% of the screen which is what that

00:06:38 ◼   ► near this new navigation bar looks like

00:06:41 ◼   ► and that's fine which maybe is

00:06:43 ◼   ► indicative that you know taller screens

00:06:45 ◼   ► are coming or just in general there's

00:06:46 ◼   ► sort of this emphasis towards let's

00:06:48 ◼   ► smush things down and you know take

00:06:52 ◼   ► advantage of the size of the screen in

00:06:54 ◼   ► that way so maybe even if it's not

00:06:56 ◼   ► necessarily adopting what Apple is doing

00:06:57 ◼   ► it's just saying that's the direction

00:06:59 ◼   ► that they're leading towards because I

00:07:01 ◼   ► think in many ways at WC one of the fun

00:07:04 ◼   ► games I tried and play is they like what

00:07:06 ◼   ► are they not saying but they're kind of

00:07:09 ◼   ► saying because usually there's these

00:07:12 ◼   ► clues and these hints that they're kind

00:07:13 ◼   ► of poking towards that are well in

00:07:17 ◼   ► retrospect either with new hardware or

00:07:20 ◼   ► just in or even just next year wEDC will

00:07:22 ◼   ► make more sense you know these little

00:07:24 ◼   ► things that they're pointing to so

00:07:25 ◼   ► that's something that I think of how

00:07:27 ◼   ► when I see these sort of like subtle

00:07:29 ◼   ► design things and like there seems to be

00:07:30 ◼   ► an emphasis on dynamic type this year

00:07:32 ◼   ► which is again all about in some ways

00:07:34 ◼   ► being less specific about information

00:07:38 ◼   ► density then it's like being played it's

00:07:40 ◼   ► like being making your app cool when it

00:07:42 ◼   ► has gigantic fonts like that's a it's a

00:07:45 ◼   ► good accessibility feature but it seems

00:07:46 ◼   ► like just in general they're trying to

00:07:48 ◼   ► move away from that kind of a you know

00:07:51 ◼   ► very dense display yeah and it's you

00:07:54 ◼   ► know they're doing that in these apps

00:07:56 ◼   ► you know in the system apps and

00:07:58 ◼   ► everything and and you we can speculate

00:07:59 ◼   ► there that probably is because of maybe

00:08:00 ◼   ► some bigger you know taller screen phone

00:08:02 ◼   ► coming this fall as all the rumor things

00:08:04 ◼   ► have pointed out but there's also a huge

00:08:07 ◼   ► install base of phones where that's

00:08:08 ◼   ► might not look good on you know the the

00:08:10 ◼   ► SE is selling really well I mean I don't

00:08:12 ◼   ► know like like my metrics on my app and

00:08:14 ◼   ► granted the odds it's a podcast app

00:08:16 ◼   ► listened to mostly by nerds so it's not

00:08:18 ◼   ► gonna be representative of the entire

00:08:19 ◼   ► market but you know my my app is

00:08:21 ◼   ► basically split like 45 45 10 between

00:08:24 ◼   ► the three screen sizes of phones right

00:08:26 ◼   ► now it's really it's like you know

00:08:28 ◼   ► really like a lot of people using the

00:08:30 ◼   ► plus phone a lot of people are using the

00:08:32 ◼   ► you know seven size phone but then also

00:08:34 ◼   ► you know 10 percent or so are using the

00:08:36 ◼   ► se size phone and that's not a small

00:08:40 ◼   ► number like that's like I can

00:08:41 ◼   ► make the interface terrible or unusable

00:08:44 ◼   ► or suck for that 10% like that's and and

00:08:47 ◼   ► the 10% is not going down it's like like

00:08:50 ◼   ► you know it when the SE came out it kind

00:08:52 ◼   ► of boosted and leveled that number and

00:08:54 ◼   ► so we have to account like we can't just

00:08:57 ◼   ► say like oh our designs have to look

00:08:58 ◼   ► good on the phone that comes out this

00:09:00 ◼   ► fall that might have a weirdly tall

00:09:02 ◼   ► screen it also has to look good on

00:09:04 ◼   ► everything else so it's a it's a fairly

00:09:06 ◼   ► aggressive new design philosophy that we

00:09:08 ◼   ► might pragmatically not want to take

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00:10:47 ◼   ► as cool as all the actual technologies

00:10:50 ◼   ► and API and SDKs are the thing that

00:10:52 ◼   ► anyway the thing I was most excited

00:10:53 ◼   ► about is the new app store app that see

00:10:57 ◼   ► to me that's a huge question mark you

00:10:59 ◼   ► know I'm excited for I'm excited that

00:11:01 ◼   ► it's changed

00:11:02 ◼   ► I mean I'm slightly terrified as well

00:11:04 ◼   ► yes by the change but I'm excited yeah

00:11:08 ◼   ► any change of the app store should

00:11:09 ◼   ► terrify all of us because it basically

00:11:11 ◼   ► means that whatever our business is now

00:11:14 ◼   ► however the app store is serving us now

00:11:15 ◼   ► it's probably going to change

00:11:17 ◼   ► dramatically this fall we don't know in

00:11:18 ◼   ► which direction yeah you know think if

00:11:20 ◼   ► they change the search algorithms that

00:11:22 ◼   ► can make a huge difference for a lot of

00:11:23 ◼   ► us of you know how what our what our

00:11:24 ◼   ► sales are if they change things like

00:11:27 ◼   ► what a feature is worth which they have

00:11:30 ◼   ► here you know they like the new app

00:11:32 ◼   ► store has a much lower information

00:11:35 ◼   ► density as you mentioned earlier with

00:11:37 ◼   ► info density a change it's a much lower

00:11:39 ◼   ► information density and they've kind of

00:11:41 ◼   ► been going towards this in you know the

00:11:43 ◼   ► recent like search redesigns and

00:11:44 ◼   ► everything in the last couple years but

00:11:45 ◼   ► now like the whole store is like that

00:11:47 ◼   ► where you basically have like giant

00:11:49 ◼   ► screen filling cards for apps and so

00:11:53 ◼   ► there's no more like big list screens

00:11:55 ◼   ► where you get a million of them on

00:11:55 ◼   ► screen at once so basically the the

00:11:59 ◼   ► number of featured spots appears to have

00:12:01 ◼   ► decreased dramatically but each one is

00:12:03 ◼   ► now worth a lot more and I don't know

00:12:06 ◼   ► what you know whether they're gonna have

00:12:07 ◼   ► like different levels like subdirectory

00:12:09 ◼   ► levels inside of it or that are more you

00:12:11 ◼   ► know high density or whatever but the

00:12:13 ◼   ► main app store features are now very

00:12:15 ◼   ► very few but very valuable and so if you

00:12:20 ◼   ► get one it's probably awesome but I

00:12:22 ◼   ► think your chances of getting one are

00:12:23 ◼   ► not reduced so it's it's kind of a I

00:12:25 ◼   ► don't know what to think yet about it

00:12:27 ◼   ► they are so they're changing more often

00:12:30 ◼   ► they're gonna be every day instead of

00:12:31 ◼   ► like every Thursday they've been that

00:12:32 ◼   ► they've been updating some of the other

00:12:33 ◼   ► editorial sections so that's nice for a

00:12:35 ◼   ► lot but like how many of us are ever

00:12:37 ◼   ► gonna get one of those feature blocks

00:12:38 ◼   ► like it seems like it's an interesting

00:12:42 ◼   ► change I'm glad they're changing it but

00:12:45 ◼   ► I don't if I had to guess I'm not sure

00:12:47 ◼   ► it's gonna benefit most people when I

00:12:50 ◼   ► see it though when I what I like is that

00:12:52 ◼   ► it changes the my goal for what the app

00:12:57 ◼   ► store my app store page my app store

00:13:00 ◼   ► presence in a way that I find slightly

00:13:02 ◼   ► motivating I guess is

00:13:03 ◼   ► like my goal is now to I would say

00:13:07 ◼   ► recently for the maybe the last couple

00:13:08 ◼   ► of years I have cared less about being

00:13:11 ◼   ► featured because the way the App Store

00:13:13 ◼   ► is now it doesn't actually have a huge

00:13:16 ◼   ► impact on downloads it's nice like

00:13:19 ◼   ► emotionally like if I get featured it

00:13:22 ◼   ► feels really good and that's awesome you

00:13:24 ◼   ► know like hooray but in my experience

00:13:26 ◼   ► like it's actually a fairly minor impact

00:13:28 ◼   ► on downloads which is I think a largely

00:13:32 ◼   ► to do just with the way that you go to

00:13:34 ◼   ► the future tab right now and you'll

00:13:36 ◼   ► probably see you know there's at least

00:13:39 ◼   ► 2030 apps on that screen at once and so

00:13:42 ◼   ► if you're one of those like that's not

00:13:45 ◼   ► nearly as impactful and when I see this

00:13:47 ◼   ► it's it's kind of nice that now instead

00:13:51 ◼   ► it's you know if you are the app of the

00:13:54 ◼   ► day and it's nice to like well you said

00:13:56 ◼   ► like it's gonna be hard to get it there

00:13:57 ◼   ► are still three hundred and sixty five

00:13:59 ◼   ► of those a year when in different

00:14:01 ◼   ► countries - it's you know it's not gonna

00:14:02 ◼   ► be just one a day it's gonna be probably

00:14:04 ◼   ► like one per country or territory per

00:14:06 ◼   ► day yeah and if it if you are that app

00:14:08 ◼   ► like if you sort of win that lottery

00:14:09 ◼   ► like you are doing I imagine that will

00:14:13 ◼   ► have a substantial impact that if the

00:14:14 ◼   ► home tab of the App Store app has a

00:14:17 ◼   ► giant fullscreen ad for your app like

00:14:20 ◼   ► either your app is really bad or like

00:14:24 ◼   ► you're gonna have a good day and so I'm

00:14:26 ◼   ► really excited about that as a goal and

00:14:29 ◼   ► as a motivation and it's nice to kind of

00:14:32 ◼   ► have snow in the back of my mind that

00:14:33 ◼   ► like my goal is to do things that will

00:14:35 ◼   ► get me onto that tab and I can do things

00:14:39 ◼   ► that are within my control to make that

00:14:40 ◼   ► happen you know I can and getting like

00:14:43 ◼   ► it's nice that I feel like it will

00:14:45 ◼   ► actually have an impact it is gonna I

00:14:47 ◼   ► think that would be very much a rich get

00:14:49 ◼   ► richer and a poor get poorer kind of a

00:14:51 ◼   ► situation like I've been playing with it

00:14:53 ◼   ► a little bit on the beta and if you

00:14:57 ◼   ► don't like the search area is still I

00:15:00 ◼   ► mean the search area - is much less

00:15:02 ◼   ► dense than it used to be but like the

00:15:04 ◼   ► actual and the new apps tab like is very

00:15:07 ◼   ► very focused on just the very very top -

00:15:11 ◼   ► stuff and if you're not one of those

00:15:13 ◼   ► apps if you're not that like the

00:15:15 ◼   ► in some ways they took the top charts

00:15:16 ◼   ► and rather than being a chart it

00:15:18 ◼   ► basically just shows the top three apps

00:15:20 ◼   ► or the top four apps now like that's a

00:15:22 ◼   ► pretty narrow thing like the top three

00:15:25 ◼   ► apps is probably gonna be Facebook

00:15:27 ◼   ► Instagram and snapchat or something like

00:15:29 ◼   ► that for a long time like there's no way

00:15:33 ◼   ► my app is ever going to break into into

00:15:36 ◼   ► that area but I think more generally I

00:15:39 ◼   ► love the feeling that over the last year

00:15:41 ◼   ► we've had at least a half dozen

00:15:44 ◼   ► substantial you know sort of business

00:15:47 ◼   ► and App Store improvements that make me

00:15:50 ◼   ► feel as someone who makes my living in

00:15:52 ◼   ► this world that this is you know like

00:15:55 ◼   ► this is a lively platform that I can be

00:15:59 ◼   ► learning to get better on because like

00:16:02 ◼   ► back in the early days of the App Store

00:16:04 ◼   ► like in some ways it reminds me of those

00:16:05 ◼   ► early days where one of the ways that I

00:16:08 ◼   ► remember being able to sort of get my

00:16:11 ◼   ► search sort of where I was trying to

00:16:13 ◼   ► stand up my business was by being a

00:16:15 ◼   ► student of the App Store by trying to

00:16:16 ◼   ► understand how it works how I can

00:16:19 ◼   ► optimize what I'm doing to work well

00:16:21 ◼   ► there and now that it's this brand new

00:16:23 ◼   ► thing it's like that starts all over

00:16:24 ◼   ► again

00:16:25 ◼   ► like all the summer I can try and work

00:16:27 ◼   ► on like what do I need to make my app

00:16:29 ◼   ► assets look like to be to look really

00:16:32 ◼   ► good here like now we have auto-playing

00:16:34 ◼   ► videos for app previews and you can have

00:16:36 ◼   ► three app previews rather than one app

00:16:38 ◼   ► preview there's all kinds of other

00:16:40 ◼   ► information that we can specify we can

00:16:42 ◼   ► give our apps subtitles and marketing

00:16:44 ◼   ► copy we can promote in-app purchases

00:16:46 ◼   ► from on our app page like there is so

00:16:50 ◼   ► much there that isn't the developer side

00:16:52 ◼   ► that isn't that's that kind of thing but

00:16:54 ◼   ► I think in some ways I'm glad that

00:16:56 ◼   ► there's so there's relatively little to

00:16:58 ◼   ► do on the technology side this year that

00:17:00 ◼   ► I'm gonna expect to be spending most of

00:17:02 ◼   ► my summer just working on those assets

00:17:04 ◼   ► working on trying to work out how to

00:17:07 ◼   ► market in this new app store because it

00:17:09 ◼   ► is a very new and different experience I

00:17:12 ◼   ► mean in many ways maybe that's kind of

00:17:15 ◼   ► like a metaphor for what we should be

00:17:18 ◼   ► doing pretty much all the time with our

00:17:20 ◼   ► apps now like technology is way less

00:17:22 ◼   ► important than it's ever been for our

00:17:23 ◼   ► apps for most of what we do

00:17:25 ◼   ► and the marketing side in the app store

00:17:27 ◼   ► and getting you know getting the all

00:17:30 ◼   ► that metadata right and and good and you

00:17:33 ◼   ► know all these new ways you know like

00:17:34 ◼   ► they added a preview videos before it

00:17:35 ◼   ► now they're more emphasized and there's

00:17:38 ◼   ► more of them and you basically have more

00:17:41 ◼   ► in the app store that you need to apply

00:17:44 ◼   ► reasonable production value to you know

00:17:46 ◼   ► be in the olden days it was basically

00:17:48 ◼   ► just an icon and maybe some design

00:17:50 ◼   ► inside your app but you could get away

00:17:52 ◼   ► with not much else and you know now like

00:17:54 ◼   ► that's a lot of long since been

00:17:56 ◼   ► surpassed as the table stakes and now

00:17:58 ◼   ► you need like you need to consider

00:18:00 ◼   ► things like your copy

00:18:01 ◼   ► although whoever reads it but you at

00:18:03 ◼   ► least consider your title and and your

00:18:05 ◼   ► screenshots have to be really good and

00:18:07 ◼   ► and as we discuss in the past like

00:18:08 ◼   ► people keep you know shoving more stuff

00:18:11 ◼   ► into screenshots it isn't just a

00:18:12 ◼   ► screenshot it's like oh here's a fake

00:18:13 ◼   ► phone spanning over the two frames and

00:18:15 ◼   ► big marketing text above it and

00:18:17 ◼   ► everything and so it like the the

00:18:19 ◼   ► production value that is required to

00:18:21 ◼   ► succeed in the app store is going up and

00:18:23 ◼   ► in some ways that's going to be a burden

00:18:25 ◼   ► it's gonna be burden on a lot of us

00:18:26 ◼   ► especially people who have smaller

00:18:28 ◼   ► budgets for that sort of thing and can

00:18:30 ◼   ► do that themselves their own skills

00:18:32 ◼   ► that's gonna raise the cost of a

00:18:34 ◼   ► succeeding in the App Store but I think

00:18:36 ◼   ► we were already headed in that direction

00:18:37 ◼   ► and that was already kind of the reality

00:18:40 ◼   ► of the market so now we are gonna be

00:18:42 ◼   ► forced to do that for our apps but we

00:18:44 ◼   ► already really were and if we're willing

00:18:47 ◼   ► to put in that extra effort to do things

00:18:49 ◼   ► like get a nice at preview video and put

00:18:52 ◼   ► some effort into really optimizing the

00:18:54 ◼   ► way the new store pages look and the new

00:18:55 ◼   ► things we can do on them I think we will

00:18:57 ◼   ► be rewarded for that and that's you know

00:18:59 ◼   ► overall that's gonna matter more than if

00:19:02 ◼   ► we spend an extra eight hours coding a

00:19:03 ◼   ► feature that not a lot of people

00:19:05 ◼   ► actually going to use or care about yeah

00:19:07 ◼   ► and it changes it's like it makes me

00:19:10 ◼   ► really nervous to have to have to make

00:19:14 ◼   ► my App Store page super pretty but on

00:19:17 ◼   ► the flip side it's like that's an

00:19:18 ◼   ► attainable goal that is something that I

00:19:20 ◼   ► can work that I can definitely would

00:19:21 ◼   ► definitively work towards and to make

00:19:23 ◼   ► happen and it's not unreasonable that

00:19:27 ◼   ► like in some ways it's nice when we were

00:19:29 ◼   ► able to get away with

00:19:30 ◼   ► that but that seems like that is less

00:19:32 ◼   ► and less the case and we can now reset

00:19:36 ◼   ► our reviews with our ratings i rated

00:19:39 ◼   ► whatever we want so we finally got that

00:19:41 ◼   ► like awesome like years ago that was on

00:19:43 ◼   ► my list of you know when i had my like

00:19:45 ◼   ► 12 my like my 12 things I wanted to

00:19:48 ◼   ► change in the App Store that was back

00:19:49 ◼   ► then and now we finally got it and like

00:19:51 ◼   ► these little changes like that are just

00:19:53 ◼   ► super exciting as a you know as a

00:19:55 ◼   ► developer Apple is clearly trying to

00:19:58 ◼   ► make this more viable for us yeah

00:20:02 ◼   ► and it's one thing I wonder about like

00:20:05 ◼   ► you mentioned before like the value of a

00:20:06 ◼   ► feature seems to have been going down in

00:20:08 ◼   ► recent years it seems I think

00:20:10 ◼   ► industry-wide we've seen this kind of

00:20:12 ◼   ► slowdown of people willing to just

00:20:14 ◼   ► browse for new apps and just install

00:20:16 ◼   ► them easily like the cost per install if

00:20:19 ◼   ► you're trying to get you know if you're

00:20:20 ◼   ► measuring that kind of thing that has

00:20:20 ◼   ► been going up over the last few years

00:20:22 ◼   ► and I wonder like do I bet Apple is

00:20:26 ◼   ► probably doing a lot of these changes to

00:20:27 ◼   ► the App Store and let the new daily

00:20:28 ◼   ► features and cleaning it all up and

00:20:29 ◼   ► everything that they're trying probably

00:20:31 ◼   ► do this to increase the the number of

00:20:33 ◼   ► times that people go to the App Store

00:20:35 ◼   ► just casually like what we used to do in

00:20:36 ◼   ► the old days like when the after was new

00:20:38 ◼   ► and we just like go there when we were

00:20:41 ◼   ► bored and just find some new apps and

00:20:43 ◼   ► download them and I think a lot of

00:20:44 ◼   ► people did that and these days a lot of

00:20:45 ◼   ► people don't so Apple is obviously

00:20:48 ◼   ► trying to push the market in this

00:20:49 ◼   ► direction to to go back to doing that

00:20:51 ◼   ► but it might not succeed like this

00:20:53 ◼   ► actually might not happen so it's really

00:20:55 ◼   ► kind of up in the air like putting all

00:20:57 ◼   ► this effort into your app store page is

00:20:59 ◼   ► gonna become table stakes but we don't

00:21:01 ◼   ► know actually how much it'll pay off yet

00:21:04 ◼   ► sure I mean that's always the case but

00:21:06 ◼   ► the reality is for a year this is the

00:21:08 ◼   ► App Store that we're gonna have to make

00:21:11 ◼   ► work for our businesses and so yeah it's

00:21:13 ◼   ► like one way or the other this is what

00:21:15 ◼   ► we got so we just sort of do our best

00:21:17 ◼   ► and hang on for the ride I did before we

00:21:20 ◼   ► run out of time I did want to talk a

00:21:21 ◼   ► little bit about the iPad advances and

00:21:24 ◼   ► not in too many specifics but basically

00:21:26 ◼   ► the iPad soph you know like every year

00:21:29 ◼   ► we try to figure out like what kind of

00:21:31 ◼   ► new apps are now made possible by

00:21:34 ◼   ► whatever they announced you know what

00:21:35 ◼   ► can we you know not only what additional

00:21:37 ◼   ► features can we add to our existing apps

00:21:39 ◼   ► but what

00:21:40 ◼   ► new markets will now exist because

00:21:42 ◼   ► that's often a place where you can reap

00:21:43 ◼   ► good rewards if you're you know and you

00:21:45 ◼   ► you mean a lot of your career off that

00:21:47 ◼   ► is my career like you know go it like

00:21:48 ◼   ► going to where new territory has just

00:21:51 ◼   ► opened up and just being the first one

00:21:53 ◼   ► there with a decent app yeah and that

00:21:55 ◼   ► you will often reap rewards from that

00:21:57 ◼   ► now it's not guaranteed but it's often

00:21:59 ◼   ► the case and there's often fewer people

00:22:01 ◼   ► there on day one than you think there

00:22:02 ◼   ► will be so what's new this year and I

00:22:05 ◼   ► think that there's not a whole lot of

00:22:06 ◼   ► like brand new like complete areas but

00:22:08 ◼   ► the iPad redesign and the new

00:22:11 ◼   ► productivity features in the iPad I

00:22:13 ◼   ► think will be one of these areas the big

00:22:15 ◼   ► you know a lot of a lot of iPad pro app

00:22:18 ◼   ► makers I've had a hard time making

00:22:20 ◼   ► economics work out and the question is

00:22:23 ◼   ► not like whether you can't sell software

00:22:26 ◼   ► for a good price on the iPad I think the

00:22:28 ◼   ► question is like are there enough people

00:22:30 ◼   ► doing pro work on the iPad that that

00:22:33 ◼   ► will be seeking out an app like yours

00:22:35 ◼   ► and that to me goes down to like how

00:22:37 ◼   ► many people are using the iPad for their

00:22:39 ◼   ► work and before it was cumbersome to do

00:22:43 ◼   ► a lot of these things you know you could

00:22:44 ◼   ► do it and we know people who do but it

00:22:46 ◼   ► was there was a lot of friction and now

00:22:48 ◼   ► they have reduced a lot of that friction

00:22:50 ◼   ► and really broken down a lot of the

00:22:52 ◼   ► barriers and made a lot of the iPad UI

00:22:54 ◼   ► you know more Mac like and and you know

00:22:56 ◼   ► don't don't say that but that's really

00:22:58 ◼   ► what they did and so now I think a lot

00:23:01 ◼   ► more people will be doing work on the

00:23:03 ◼   ► iPad than than before so I think that

00:23:05 ◼   ► might create more of a market for iPad

00:23:08 ◼   ► pro software than we had before

00:23:10 ◼   ► and it's not to say that like you can go

00:23:12 ◼   ► in with an iOS level price you know if

00:23:14 ◼   ► you go if you're thinking of like

00:23:16 ◼   ► developing pro software on the Mac and

00:23:19 ◼   ► you sell your pro up on the Mac for a

00:23:21 ◼   ► hundred bucks and that succeeds for you

00:23:23 ◼   ► you can't go to the iPad and sell it for

00:23:25 ◼   ► ten bucks and expect to have the same

00:23:26 ◼   ► success you know you're gonna have to

00:23:29 ◼   ► like charge more and it's gonna have to

00:23:31 ◼   ► be worth more for people just like on

00:23:33 ◼   ► the Mac you know they're making it more

00:23:35 ◼   ► Mac like but I do think that's a market

00:23:37 ◼   ► that did not exist very strongly before

00:23:40 ◼   ► and now I think that's gonna be a bigger

00:23:42 ◼   ► market because the iPad is now such a

00:23:44 ◼   ► better tool for getting work done in

00:23:47 ◼   ► them in a professional capacity or

00:23:48 ◼   ► really honestly any capacity like email

00:23:51 ◼   ► it's like it's so much easier and how

00:23:53 ◼   ► that I was before I think there's gonna

00:23:55 ◼   ► potentially be a bigger market there

00:23:57 ◼   ► than there was so maybe maybe the place

00:24:00 ◼   ► to be this year isn't some new extension

00:24:03 ◼   ► type that became available in iOS or

00:24:04 ◼   ► something else maybe the place to be

00:24:05 ◼   ► this year is boring productivity apps on

00:24:08 ◼   ► the iPad

00:24:08 ◼   ► maybe I mean the thing that's I I

00:24:11 ◼   ► struggle a little bit like I'm excited

00:24:13 ◼   ► what the iPad changes because an AI know

00:24:17 ◼   ► I have I have many friends who love the

00:24:20 ◼   ► iPad and are just yeah through the

00:24:21 ◼   ► through the roof about this like I was

00:24:23 ◼   ► sitting next to Federico vtg during the

00:24:25 ◼   ► keynote and like like there was a glow

00:24:29 ◼   ► coming off of him for the entire show

00:24:31 ◼   ► because he was so excited and like that

00:24:33 ◼   ► is really cool I mean as it just as a

00:24:35 ◼   ► developer I love like I got I gotta

00:24:37 ◼   ► imagine the iPad team who'd made me

00:24:39 ◼   ► those features love hearing the feedback

00:24:41 ◼   ► of these people who are so genuinely

00:24:42 ◼   ► excited about it and it's like I like

00:24:45 ◼   ► that's there I'm still nervous that

00:24:48 ◼   ► whether about whether or not it will be

00:24:50 ◼   ► enough to it's like you have such this

00:24:53 ◼   ► chicken-and-egg problem with the iPad

00:24:55 ◼   ► you know where if a Polly into the

00:25:01 ◼   ► platform to make it to have that

00:25:04 ◼   ► richness of ecosystem it is a really

00:25:06 ◼   ► interesting and compelling device and

00:25:08 ◼   ► when the iPad first came out like

00:25:09 ◼   ► whatever that was four or five six years

00:25:12 ◼   ► ago like it was a pretty good place to

00:25:15 ◼   ► be an app developer like I made a

00:25:18 ◼   ► substantial part of my business working

00:25:20 ◼   ► on the iPad for years and then it just

00:25:23 ◼   ► kind of fell off and in many ways it

00:25:25 ◼   ► kind of fell off with apples sales graph

00:25:27 ◼   ► you know like the iPad sells less and

00:25:29 ◼   ► less every year my hope is that what

00:25:32 ◼   ► Apple is doing with these kinds of

00:25:33 ◼   ► changes is if they can pull that back

00:25:37 ◼   ► and kind of have an inflection point

00:25:39 ◼   ► where it suddenly it gets a little bit

00:25:41 ◼   ► more traction it's all these things that

00:25:43 ◼   ► were just a little bit too difficult

00:25:45 ◼   ► before now become that little bit more

00:25:47 ◼   ► easy and are now more possible maybe

00:25:50 ◼   ► we'll get there and if they do then like

00:25:51 ◼   ► that's interesting and I could

00:25:52 ◼   ► definitely see transitioning my focus a

00:25:54 ◼   ► bit back towards the iPad because

00:25:56 ◼   ► honestly recently it hasn't been there

00:25:58 ◼   ► at all

00:26:00 ◼   ► and I like the iPad like it's an

00:26:02 ◼   ► interesting platform in that respect but

00:26:04 ◼   ► there's such this tricky tricky tricky

00:26:05 ◼   ► thing when the iPhone is so viable as an

00:26:09 ◼   ► app platform that the iPad could be

00:26:13 ◼   ► viable as an app platform but if it

00:26:16 ◼   ► isn't it's like and if lots of

00:26:18 ◼   ► developers don't go there it won't be

00:26:20 ◼   ► but lots of developers going there won't

00:26:23 ◼   ► make it viable and so you end it's very

00:26:25 ◼   ► circular and I'm still of two minds as

00:26:28 ◼   ► to whether like this I'm not sure if

00:26:30 ◼   ► this year I'll be focusing much on the

00:26:33 ◼   ► iPad or if it's one of those like

00:26:35 ◼   ► wait-and-see you know have a couple of

00:26:37 ◼   ► quarters of sales to see if the iPad

00:26:40 ◼   ► sales are starting to come back out

00:26:41 ◼   ► waiting to see if there's sort of an

00:26:43 ◼   ► uptick on things because I don't know

00:26:46 ◼   ► it's a heart it's it's I want to be

00:26:47 ◼   ► excited but I'm like of all the things

00:26:50 ◼   ► that announced it's like I'm excited but

00:26:52 ◼   ► I'm much more cautiously excited than I

00:26:54 ◼   ► am on a lot of the other platforms and

00:26:56 ◼   ► you know sort of the ways that they're

00:26:57 ◼   ► apples trying to push us this year yeah

00:27:00 ◼   ► I think that's probably probably a safe

00:27:01 ◼   ► bet because like with the iPad stuff

00:27:03 ◼   ► like you never really know until like a

00:27:05 ◼   ► year or two later like what what swing

00:27:08 ◼   ► the market has taken you know it's it's

00:27:10 ◼   ► a lagging indicator and and a lot of

00:27:12 ◼   ► these new iPad productivity gains are

00:27:14 ◼   ► only gonna be compelling or widely used

00:27:18 ◼   ► on pretty high-end pretty recent iPads

00:27:20 ◼   ► which is not a large slice of the market

00:27:22 ◼   ► and so we really won't know yet so I

00:27:25 ◼   ► guess yeah I guess I agree with you it's

00:27:26 ◼   ► probably a little bit risky to jump in

00:27:27 ◼   ► right now but but I do think like

00:27:30 ◼   ► there's something about the iPad that

00:27:32 ◼   ► people love it like they tangibly love

00:27:36 ◼   ► this device they want to use it more and

00:27:38 ◼   ► the story I hear over and over again is

00:27:40 ◼   ► I would love to get more work done or

00:27:42 ◼   ► I'd love to use this thing more but I

00:27:44 ◼   ► just it's just I can't do what I need to

00:27:45 ◼   ► do or it's too cumbersome or whatever

00:27:47 ◼   ► else so I think there's something there

00:27:49 ◼   ► and I think people will try really hard

00:27:51 ◼   ► to make it work for them again now that

00:27:53 ◼   ► we have radically new capabilities I

00:27:55 ◼   ► mean when I when I OS 9 launched with

00:27:57 ◼   ► the multitasking for the first time that

00:27:59 ◼   ► converted a ton of iPad skeptics over

00:28:02 ◼   ► into being iPad lovers and iPad workers

00:28:05 ◼   ► and now there's there's another step

00:28:08 ◼   ► probably of that magnitude or even more

00:28:10 ◼   ► so

00:28:11 ◼   ► I think might do that same thing the

00:28:13 ◼   ► only question is will it stick or will

00:28:15 ◼   ► it be a fad and it's it's hard to base

00:28:19 ◼   ► major business decisions on that yeah

00:28:21 ◼   ► and it's you know I think I said I'm in

00:28:25 ◼   ► might maybe it's like I've been doing

00:28:27 ◼   ► this long enough that I'm sad I have an

00:28:29 ◼   ► increase i've increasingly have a sense

00:28:31 ◼   ► of sort of caution about those kinds of

00:28:33 ◼   ► things which in many ways and is

00:28:35 ◼   ► probably to my detriment in it I'm very

00:28:38 ◼   ► aware of the fact that I probably

00:28:40 ◼   ► wouldn't be able to have a sustainable

00:28:43 ◼   ► business at this point if I was cautious

00:28:45 ◼   ► in the past that in some ways it's going

00:28:48 ◼   ► to take developers making kind of

00:28:50 ◼   ► reckless and sort of slightly you know

00:28:54 ◼   ► wild decisions to pursue and push the

00:28:57 ◼   ► boundaries on the iPad for the iPad to

00:28:59 ◼   ► be a viable platform and I will say one

00:29:01 ◼   ► thing that Apple does tends to do well

00:29:02 ◼   ► is they if you if developers do go down

00:29:07 ◼   ► that road they tend to yo they're good

00:29:09 ◼   ► at recognizing them and promoting them

00:29:11 ◼   ► and at helping them you know that if you

00:29:12 ◼   ► all right everybody see this week and

00:29:15 ◼   ► you go down to a lab and you're trying

00:29:16 ◼   ► to you're trying to do something or you

00:29:17 ◼   ► want to reach out to developer relations

00:29:18 ◼   ► and you're having a problem trying to

00:29:20 ◼   ► push the boundaries there's a very good

00:29:22 ◼   ► chance they will encourage that which

00:29:24 ◼   ► you know so I would encourage anybody

00:29:25 ◼   ► who's more adventurous than I am to dive

00:29:28 ◼   ► into that because I think it's it's not

00:29:30 ◼   ► an easy win but there's a good

00:29:31 ◼   ► opportunity there are you saying you

00:29:33 ◼   ► might make more apps it's possible

00:29:35 ◼   ► that's that's impressive

00:29:37 ◼   ► I think we're out of time this week

00:29:39 ◼   ► everybody so thank you very much for

00:29:41 ◼   ► listening and we'll see you next week

00:29:42 ◼   ► bye