Under the Radar 78: Difficult Indulgences
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welcome to under the radar a show about
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independent iOS app development I'm
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Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
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the radar is never longer than 30
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minutes so let's get started so you as
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the listener would probably not be aware
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of this but Marco and I have actually
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been doing a fair bit of traveling
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recently and so we've the you know we've
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been having an interesting cycle of
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recording shows slightly out of sequence
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or bunching them up but for me the most
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most recent thing was the last last week
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I went on a 110 mile Appalachian Trail
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like backpacking trip and did by myself
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and ended up with a lot of time too
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so I guess as I was wandering around to
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think about you know anything about
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think about my work think about whether
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the things I was making and as a result
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of that I think it came with it with a
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topic that would be interesting to
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discuss here I guess you could say I
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developed some perspective
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well I while I was out on my walk and
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specifically the something that I kept
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coming back to was this feeling that one
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of the things that is the biggest
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challenge I faced in in my work and I
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think as an independent is something
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that is a pretty common challenge to to
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deal with it's this feeling of how do
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you deal with like difficult hard often
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not particularly interesting problems
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that are necessary or are part of the
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you know the part of the work that you
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do because you know I was as I was
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walking along I was thinking about kind
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of like the tasks that I'd like to do in
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my apps you know what are the big
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features what are the things that I want
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to tackle and I noticed that almost
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everything on the list at this point you
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know for a lot of my apps are fairly
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mature the things that I run into now
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are these difficult hard problems that
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you know I know we're solvable it's not
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like I'm doing doing some kind of R&D
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thing where I'm junior I just want to
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like go and invent some crazy new thing
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it's like these aren't problems that I
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feel like ours should be in the realm of
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solvable but they're difficult
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but they're hard and being motivated to
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tackle them when it isn't the situation
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that I have you know have a boss who's
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assigning them to me like here's this
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feature that you must implement you know
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here's what you're going to work on for
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the next three weeks if that were the
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case that might be a little bit easier
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but you know when I have to choose to
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essentially I have to choose to
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undertake the pain that I know is going
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to be implementing that feature going
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down the road of you know lots of dead
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ends lots of features lots of you know
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false starts and you know it attempts at
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this particular solution that turns out
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to not work out being motivated to do
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that is something that I struggle with
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but in retrospect when I look at it I
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always yeah it's like some of the
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features that I'm most proud of tend to
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be you know features where I was able to
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get over that hump and actually start
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working actually get into it actually
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solve it you know and then I can look
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back and it's usually that's that's the
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cool stuff that's the stuff that
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separates my apps from you know my
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competitors are trying to tackle these
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features and one thing that I think and
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so as a surface a jumping in point for
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this I would wanted to say is I've
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always admired with you Marco that it
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seems like these are you kind of these
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are the features that you almost seem to
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relish in doing that going off on these
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several month like vision quests where
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you dive down into these really
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complicated low-level or hard to solve
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problems and then you know coming back
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with really cool solutions is something
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that you've done time and time again for
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all of the products that you've made and
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so as I was sitting there we're
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wandering around and being thinking
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about this I was like you know what I
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need to do I need to ask Marco like how
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do you motivate yourself to tackle those
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kinds of problems when you know they're
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going to be difficult to get started
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with I think it's a lot of like what's
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what satisfies you as a programmer like
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what do you most like to do and you know
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this is different for a lot of people
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typically you know what's what's fairly
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common among most programmers is that we
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like to generally work on new things at
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least you know so that's
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that's like one-one you know big gimme
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is like you know we are almost always
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motivated to to work on something new
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that's it that interests us for me one
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of those things is tricky low-level code
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some kind of like you know low-level
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dealing with bits or bytes or sound or
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algorithm type things that aren't too
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academically hard but that require like
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low-level messing around I always really
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enjoy that stuff so you know it in in
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overcast there's things like the audio
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engine you know all the effects the be
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smart speed of voice boost effects you
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know that that stuff always I just did
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enjoy it and when when there's something
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like that that I enjoy you know like
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most programmers I would I think I would
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rather work on the kind of thing I enjoy
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even if it means you know ignoring or
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procrastinating the more boring things
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that I probably should also do I think
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this is a problem most programmers have
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the only question is what those
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interesting things are I mean to me like
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here I was like writing this crazy you
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know watch offline transcoding engine
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and at the same time ice overcast is
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almost three years old and I've never
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had an email change form and my password
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resets are I think a little bit broken
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that that is totally backwards
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priorities like I really like I get
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emails from people I'd say almost every
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day saying hey is there a way for me to
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change my account email address and the
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answer is no there isn't and there
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really should be I should have done that
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like on week one or week two overcast
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almost three years ago but I haven't
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because it's it's never you know the
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idea of doing that is like you know
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terminally uninteresting to me to the
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point where anything else that I have to
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do with the app has taken priority over
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that for the last two two-and-a-half
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years and so for me like diving into
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these really hard tricky problems is you
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know it's often procrastination and it's
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off it's just it's what I like to do
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anything I like to do for me like what's
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what's heavily motivating usually is
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either things that are things that make
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me money directly like like you know
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writing an ad system writing that system
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has actually been a lot more work than I
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expected it to be it's you know it's not
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I'm not like writing a whole network
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like Adsense or anything but just
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putting the parts in place to have a
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decent ad system that's that's but
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that's good for both me and the buyers
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of the ads and the users and you know
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and all the different like little
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management tools you need like the
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ability to like to monitor how they're
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doing and give people stats and issue
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refunds if necessary and things like
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that you know I I'm having to build all
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this stuff from scratch and I'm I've
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been mostly motivated to do that pretty
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well because it is directly related to
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how I'm making money and it's doing well
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so far so that that motivates me on that
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angle but also I get very heavily
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motivated by doing something cool with
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you know with low level stuff you know
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like this morning so we're doing were
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actually doing live shows we as we
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mentioned on this show I think a couple
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of weeks ago we are doing under the
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radar live at Cocoa conf at WBC that
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COCOMs running a conference called next
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door which is like literally next door
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down the block from the from Muska or
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from the San Jose Convention Center
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where WBC is being held and we will be
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doing this show live that week on the
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Tuesday because I think June 6th right
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at about 1:45 p.m. Pacific and and I'm
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also also doing ATP live the day before
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then the evening before at Coco Kampf
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I mean sorry adult conf rather and so
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we're doing these live shows and I
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thought you know it would be nice if I
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had a soundboard app for ATP and a timer
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app for this show and to show on my
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computer screen during the show so this
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morning I I spent this morning writing a
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sound board there are a million sound
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board apps out there but none of them
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were exactly what I wanted I wanted of
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course my own custom thing because I'm
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I'm picky like that and so I spent the
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morning writing a sound board I was
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woken up early by my allergies I
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couldn't breathe anymore so I figured
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let's get to programming it can't sleep
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anymore so let's get the program
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so so that was you know novel it was
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kind of dealing with audio stuff because
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of course I had to build in things like
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automatically detecting when the out
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when the output device becomes
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unavailable and putting up a little
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alert thing on the top so I don't you
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know so I noticed that if I'd happens
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during recording stuff I'm never gonna
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really need like I'm really glad that
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that makes no no sense I shouldn't have
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written my own soundboard app there's
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there's many of them in the App Store on
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the Mac App Store there's probably even
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more in iOS and there's probably eat
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there's even more of them outside of the
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App Store but I wrote it anyway because
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I had a few hours to kill I was
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delirious from waking up too early on
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allergy medicine and I decided you know
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what this is gonna be a fun thing to do
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and I approached the the watch offline
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playback thing with pretty much the same
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motivations - the allergy component
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because it was at the winter time and my
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motivation there was really like I I
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want to you know IIIi was I wanted to
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make this feature and why I wanted to
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make it I guess we can get into some
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other time or maybe later but I wanted
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to make this feature and I knew it was
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not going to be used by a lot of people
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but I thought if I'm going to do this
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feature I need to do it well and the
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biggest problem was you know on the like
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transferring files to the watch like
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there's no I couldn't do smart speed on
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the watch and the trend the file
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transfers were giant and too slow to
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chance to transfer so I decided let me
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see if I can write a transcoding engine
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because you know I I phones are pretty
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fast these days and so what this this
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was kind of like a like a perfect storm
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of motivations for me to do something
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which is that it was a hard technical
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challenge none of my competitors as far
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as I know were doing it and it
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accomplished something that I think most
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people thought wasn't possible or
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wouldn't have thought to do and I love
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that combination like to me that's a
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huge motivator and then to end it to
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also involve you know there's this
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low-level audio stuff that I enjoy so
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much was it was just the cherry on top
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and then of course up
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zatia trying to make the transcodes
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faster it's a fun game to play when
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you're a programmer of like hey you know
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if I if I change the way I do this it
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becomes 10 times faster let's see how
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many times I can do that and it it ends
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up just being very satisfying and this
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is this was one of the problems with
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being an indie and not having anybody
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like telling me what I need to be
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working on that often times these kind
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of deep dives into difficult technical
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features often times these are not a
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good idea often times they're not an
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efficient use of your time in fact I
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would say probably most of the time they
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aren't an efficient use of your time but
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because I define my own you know to-do
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list basically and that's one of the
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benefits of doing your own products
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because it I find my own to-do list I
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basically take the indulgence of doing
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cool things like this because it let's
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be honest it is largely an indulgence to
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be able to do stuff like this cuz you
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know a lot of times you're not gonna get
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paid back on I mean I did this entire
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watch offline playback feature and so
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far it's being used by something like
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0.2% of users every day it's it's very
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very low according to my awesome
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home-built analytics which I also built
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but there's actually isn't awesome it is
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home built analytics I would not
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describe it as awesome but so you know
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it's being used by very few people it
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probably isn't the best idea for
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business to have done it if I am honest
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with myself but it was a really hard
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problem that that satisfied me immensely
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while working on it it is right am I in
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my wheelhouse of like low-level audio
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stuff that I enjoy working on so much
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and it gave me a competitive advantage
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even though it's a very very small one
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but it gave me a competitive advantage
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at least for the time being and I'm you
00:12:49
◼
►
know I'm sure that won't last very long
00:12:50
◼
►
but for the time being it's there and so
00:12:53
◼
►
all those it just it forms motivation
00:12:57
◼
►
like when it has a combination like that
00:12:58
◼
►
whereas if you are somebody who doesn't
00:13:01
◼
►
like working on low level C code for
00:13:03
◼
►
dealing with core audio stuff or you
00:13:06
◼
►
know whatever it whatever your hard
00:13:08
◼
►
problem that's facing you might be if
00:13:11
◼
►
that doesn't interest you I totally get
00:13:14
◼
►
why you wouldn't want to do it or you
00:13:15
◼
►
know why you'd why you procrastinated or
00:13:17
◼
►
you know just try to find ways around
00:13:21
◼
►
and there's lots of things like that for
00:13:22
◼
►
me just not this kind of thing yeah
00:13:25
◼
►
because I feel like what I'm hearing is
00:13:27
◼
►
it's the a it's like the first step is
00:13:30
◼
►
to kind of try and understand yourself
00:13:33
◼
►
and understand what things are going to
00:13:38
◼
►
mix you know what things are you going
00:13:41
◼
►
to enjoy building are you gonna be
00:13:42
◼
►
motivated to build what's the kind of
00:13:44
◼
►
thing you know what would be like Lola
00:13:46
◼
►
who audio stuff just sounds awful to me
00:13:48
◼
►
like my little experience with that has
00:13:51
◼
►
always been you know pain and suffering
00:13:55
◼
►
rather than you know joy and delight and
00:13:58
◼
►
so like for me you know it's like those
00:14:00
◼
►
probably aren't the directions to that
00:14:02
◼
►
you know would motivate me to go into
00:14:04
◼
►
and I think maybe there's something a
00:14:05
◼
►
interesting and understanding that you
00:14:08
◼
►
know in you and I in some ways are as
00:14:10
◼
►
similar at premium professionally as two
00:14:14
◼
►
people could be in some ways you know
00:14:16
◼
►
we've both been doing the same basically
00:14:18
◼
►
the same job for the last eight years
00:14:21
◼
►
you know we do it in fair in sort of
00:14:23
◼
►
fairly similar ways we make our living
00:14:26
◼
►
fairly similarly yeah but even there
00:14:28
◼
►
even still we have these varied I think
00:14:29
◼
►
very different preferences and things
00:14:34
◼
►
that we would act the parts of the job
00:14:35
◼
►
that we actually enjoy and so it's good
00:14:39
◼
►
to just I think be introspective
00:14:40
◼
►
probably first and understanding you
00:14:44
◼
►
know it when I see myself
00:14:46
◼
►
procrastinating I think one of the
00:14:48
◼
►
things that I've started to try and ask
00:14:50
◼
►
myself it's like why don't I want to do
00:14:53
◼
►
that because usually there's a reason
00:14:55
◼
►
and sometimes it's a good reason and
00:14:58
◼
►
sometimes you know it's a bad reason but
00:15:00
◼
►
you know the end up with lots of the but
00:15:02
◼
►
you end up with the you know this funny
00:15:03
◼
►
situation of at a certain point like
00:15:05
◼
►
either you know when you're independent
00:15:09
◼
►
you either will be in the situation
00:15:10
◼
►
where the thing just won't get done
00:15:13
◼
►
because there's not like there's someone
00:15:15
◼
►
else on the team who it can get punted
00:15:17
◼
►
to it's like it's you're you're going to
00:15:20
◼
►
do it or you're not and so trying to at
00:15:24
◼
►
least understand why you're not doing it
00:15:26
◼
►
you know there are many features and I
00:15:28
◼
►
mean I have whole apps that you know
00:15:30
◼
►
I've sort of I've half-heartedly built
00:15:33
◼
►
I didn't it's nice for some reason
00:15:36
◼
►
didn't catch my imagination I guess you
00:15:38
◼
►
could say it's like if it if it didn't
00:15:40
◼
►
if it doesn't have that getting can't
00:15:42
◼
►
get over that initial hump it'll just
00:15:44
◼
►
sit there and kind of languish and even
00:15:46
◼
►
when it might from a business
00:15:50
◼
►
perspective be a good idea or you know
00:15:52
◼
►
from a just in a utility to the world's
00:15:56
◼
►
perspective might be a good thing like
00:15:58
◼
►
theirs if it doesn't catch my attention
00:16:02
◼
►
I know I won't really be able to do it
00:16:05
◼
►
and so it is something that I don't but
00:16:06
◼
►
I think increasingly and this is where I
00:16:09
◼
►
was trying to think I'm sort of coming
00:16:11
◼
►
around to is well while I think that is
00:16:14
◼
►
how I've acted for for a long time now
00:16:18
◼
►
like I look at my board my business and
00:16:19
◼
►
I think you know like I think I'm by
00:16:23
◼
►
allowing myself to do the things that
00:16:27
◼
►
only the things that I enjoy I'm
00:16:29
◼
►
probably hurting the effectiveness of my
00:16:33
◼
►
of my business which is you know which
00:16:36
◼
►
is problematic in some ways but honestly
00:16:38
◼
►
like the more fundamental thing that I'm
00:16:40
◼
►
starting to worry about and I'm starting
00:16:41
◼
►
to think about a lot more is I'm not
00:16:45
◼
►
getting better at a very fast rate
00:16:49
◼
►
anymore that you know my skills and my
00:16:51
◼
►
abilities as I go down this would be you
00:16:56
◼
►
know as I keep doing the things that I'm
00:16:57
◼
►
good at and enjoy doing I get better I
00:17:01
◼
►
get incrementally better at doing those
00:17:02
◼
►
things but I don't tackle these bigger
00:17:05
◼
►
harder problems and you know it's like
00:17:06
◼
►
your example of like a password reset
00:17:08
◼
►
form or an email change form like it's
00:17:12
◼
►
not that that's a hard text problem to
00:17:14
◼
►
do but I know for myself
00:17:15
◼
►
I have all these features sort of in
00:17:17
◼
►
that vein that I haven't done
00:17:20
◼
►
and as a result like they're probably
00:17:23
◼
►
disproportionately more difficult to do
00:17:26
◼
►
than they should be because it shouldn't
00:17:28
◼
►
be that hard to do a lot some of these
00:17:30
◼
►
things they're fairly straightforward
00:17:31
◼
►
but if you put them off for long enough
00:17:33
◼
►
and you know at a certain point it
00:17:35
◼
►
actually does become difficult because
00:17:36
◼
►
you become very rusty at doing those
00:17:39
◼
►
kinds of things yeah I mean otherwise it
00:17:41
◼
►
would take a lot of rust to be too rusty
00:17:43
◼
►
to make an email change form but sure
00:17:44
◼
►
you know and there's a couple things
00:17:46
◼
►
there I want to unpack
00:17:47
◼
►
you know one of them the the getting
00:17:49
◼
►
better at new things and learning the
00:17:51
◼
►
things that I think we should we should
00:17:52
◼
►
come back to but also you know I think
00:17:54
◼
►
it's important that as I mentioned like
00:17:56
◼
►
one of the one of the benefits of
00:17:58
◼
►
working for yourself is being able to to
00:18:01
◼
►
look at a lot of the things that that
00:18:03
◼
►
the world wants you to do or that you
00:18:06
◼
►
think you're obligated to do and on some
00:18:09
◼
►
of those you can just say no and not all
00:18:11
◼
►
of them and you know some of them are
00:18:12
◼
►
more important than others some of them
00:18:13
◼
►
there's there's more ramifications if
00:18:15
◼
►
you if you don't do them you know that
00:18:18
◼
►
you should think about but you know like
00:18:20
◼
►
so many things I think there's a healthy
00:18:23
◼
►
balance to be found you know you're an
00:18:25
◼
►
indie you have the ability to not do
00:18:28
◼
►
stuff you don't want to do and you have
00:18:31
◼
►
the ability as I said earlier to to you
00:18:33
◼
►
know take the indulgence of working on
00:18:36
◼
►
something that might not be worth the
00:18:38
◼
►
time you're putting into it in pure
00:18:40
◼
►
business terms but that you might want
00:18:41
◼
►
to do anyway it's it's kind of like
00:18:45
◼
►
eating dessert well you know that's
00:18:47
◼
►
that's why I use I use the term
00:18:48
◼
►
indulgence because like you're allowed
00:18:50
◼
►
to give yourself that you're allowed to
00:18:51
◼
►
do these something cool that that it
00:18:54
◼
►
doesn't make sense for that from the
00:18:55
◼
►
business as long as you don't only do
00:18:57
◼
►
that as long as you don't you don't do
00:18:58
◼
►
that out of balance such that your
00:19:00
◼
►
business will suffer and you won't be
00:19:02
◼
►
able to do this anymore like and that's
00:19:03
◼
►
this is a balance that many many
00:19:06
◼
►
companies and Indies have a hard time
00:19:09
◼
►
striking you know everyone has like
00:19:11
◼
►
their pet project they would love to do
00:19:12
◼
►
or their their their preferred way of
00:19:14
◼
►
doing things and and if it's if it
00:19:17
◼
►
doesn't make sense business-wise to do
00:19:19
◼
►
you can still do it sometimes you know
00:19:21
◼
►
you can have fun with things you can
00:19:23
◼
►
have side projects you can you can you
00:19:25
◼
►
know take the the indulgence of doing
00:19:27
◼
►
some kind of like crazy ridiculous thing
00:19:29
◼
►
to make your app 1% better because you
00:19:31
◼
►
just wanted to do it that just can't be
00:19:33
◼
►
all you do and similarly you know the
00:19:35
◼
►
list of things that like it's a huge
00:19:38
◼
►
problem if you don't do them there are a
00:19:40
◼
►
few things on there that that's true for
00:19:41
◼
►
but that isn't true for the whole list
00:19:43
◼
►
and as an indie I feel like you should
00:19:45
◼
►
you should let yourself have that that's
00:19:47
◼
►
part you know we as Indies we do a lot
00:19:49
◼
►
of a lot more you know administration
00:19:53
◼
►
and management of stuff like taxes and
00:19:55
◼
►
accounting all stuff like we take on a
00:19:57
◼
►
lot of burdens there and we also take a
00:19:59
◼
►
huge risk compared
00:20:01
◼
►
people who work for other people and I
00:20:03
◼
►
think part of the reason we take that
00:20:05
◼
►
and part of the payoff of doing that is
00:20:07
◼
►
this ability to to you know miss spend
00:20:11
◼
►
some of our time because we can we can
00:20:13
◼
►
decide to do that as long as it doesn't
00:20:15
◼
►
cause problems for the business as a
00:20:17
◼
►
whole you know as long as we keep
00:20:18
◼
►
everything a balance this episode of
00:20:20
◼
►
under the radar is brought to you by a
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◼
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they sent one of me one of these to try
00:20:59
◼
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out the thing that well I'm I loves to
00:21:01
◼
►
see that it's you know says that it can
00:21:03
◼
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charge my phone up to five times when I
00:21:05
◼
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was really curious to see is how that
00:21:06
◼
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would work with something other than a
00:21:08
◼
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phone and so I took my 12 inch macbook a
00:21:10
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USB a two USBC connector plugged it in
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and it reports itself as a 10 watt
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charger which is great you know you
00:21:16
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never know when you're gonna need to get
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some work done and your laptops running
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Thank You jewelry away for their support
00:22:01
◼
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of this show and all of real afm all
00:22:04
◼
►
right so I think it is worth coming back
00:22:06
◼
►
a little bit to what you said earlier
00:22:07
◼
►
about you know that you're you aren't
00:22:09
◼
►
getting better as quickly as you used to
00:22:11
◼
►
or as quickly as you want to and that's
00:22:14
◼
►
if you do like the indie indulgence I do
00:22:17
◼
►
it I want kind of thing like for too
00:22:18
◼
►
long then this this is a problem that
00:22:21
◼
►
like you will only do the things that
00:22:23
◼
►
you want to do and you won't get better
00:22:26
◼
►
other things and hi I have the same
00:22:29
◼
►
problem in in a lot of areas you know
00:22:31
◼
►
it's so you know for example things like
00:22:33
◼
►
I haven't really been pressured to learn
00:22:34
◼
►
Swift because why would I you know look
00:22:37
◼
►
as we've discussed like wait there's
00:22:39
◼
►
some reasons I'm kind of interested in
00:22:40
◼
►
it a little bit and everything but like
00:22:42
◼
►
when it comes down to you know what I
00:22:44
◼
►
actually do day to day there's nothing
00:22:46
◼
►
really pushing me to learn it right this
00:22:47
◼
►
second or to convert or anything or to
00:22:49
◼
►
write new code and Swift you know right
00:22:51
◼
►
there is no like you know big standard
00:22:53
◼
►
we also talked about how neither of us
00:22:54
◼
►
are very heavy unit testers
00:22:56
◼
►
there's nothing forcing us to become
00:22:57
◼
►
heavy unit testers but you know certain
00:23:02
◼
►
things do it bring new topics to us and
00:23:05
◼
►
new skills to us out of necessity so
00:23:07
◼
►
things like you know when when it when
00:23:09
◼
►
the AppStore economic landscape shifts
00:23:12
◼
►
around we're forced to do different
00:23:13
◼
►
types of business models are forced to
00:23:15
◼
►
try things like freemium and ads and
00:23:17
◼
►
things like that and and so I feel like
00:23:20
◼
►
just being in this ecosystem does push
00:23:24
◼
►
us into a few new things here and there
00:23:26
◼
►
but obviously not you know every kind of
00:23:29
◼
►
thing I'm wondering like is there is
00:23:30
◼
►
there a specific kind of area or example
00:23:33
◼
►
that that you feel like you you know
00:23:35
◼
►
should be getting better in but just are
00:23:38
◼
►
not being pressured to I mean I think
00:23:40
◼
►
the hardest thing about that question is
00:23:42
◼
►
that it's it falls a lot in the it's
00:23:46
◼
►
like the it's an unknown loss that it's
00:23:50
◼
►
like it's hard for me to know exactly if
00:23:53
◼
►
there's a particular area where I'm
00:23:54
◼
►
deficient because in some ways by the
00:23:57
◼
►
very nature of it being a deficiency
00:23:59
◼
►
being an area that I'm not exposed to
00:24:01
◼
►
being something that I'm not
00:24:03
◼
►
you know it's forcing myself to
00:24:06
◼
►
undertake I don't understand what I'm
00:24:10
◼
►
missing out on and so it's it's tricky
00:24:13
◼
►
like but I think about the situations
00:24:15
◼
►
where like I used to be really scared
00:24:20
◼
►
about dealing with low-level core
00:24:22
◼
►
graphic stuff like that was an area like
00:24:25
◼
►
doing animations or things like that
00:24:27
◼
►
that I used to think
00:24:28
◼
►
we're really it was it was just this
00:24:31
◼
►
whole this little black box that I never
00:24:32
◼
►
opened up that it was just terrifying to
00:24:34
◼
►
me and I read more recently like I've
00:24:39
◼
►
gotten used to that and like I in
00:24:41
◼
►
activity plus plus was in area where
00:24:43
◼
►
it's like I hit this wall where I was
00:24:45
◼
►
trying to make this animation and all of
00:24:47
◼
►
a sudden it's like the only way I'm
00:24:48
◼
►
going to be able to do this is if I drop
00:24:50
◼
►
down a level and so I it's like well I
00:24:54
◼
►
really liked this thought I had in my
00:24:56
◼
►
mind for what the animation would look
00:24:58
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like and so I dived I drove in and I
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really you know like learned all this
00:25:02
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crazy stuff and got it to work and it's
00:25:05
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like now I have this whole other tool
00:25:07
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set that I can you know as I'm looking
00:25:11
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at problems in you know my other apps
00:25:13
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are in new apps I have this whole tool
00:25:14
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set that I just completely didn't have
00:25:16
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before and these capabilities that I
00:25:18
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didn't even like I sort of
00:25:20
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intellectually knew probably existed but
00:25:23
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I didn't really understand what that
00:25:24
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meant and I think that is like that
00:25:26
◼
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experience that you can sort of
00:25:29
◼
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intellectually know that something is
00:25:32
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possible but until you've actually done
00:25:34
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it it can be really you don't really
00:25:37
◼
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know what you're missing out on and I
00:25:39
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think when I the the thing that I was
00:25:40
◼
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trying to sort of Chasen myself with in
00:25:44
◼
►
this experience or like in this thought
00:25:46
◼
►
process that I've been having recently
00:25:47
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is the I don't know what all those
00:25:50
◼
►
things are that I'm missing and but I
00:25:53
◼
►
know that they exist and I want to try
00:25:58
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and motivate myself to tackle problems
00:26:00
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that are difficult so that I can
00:26:02
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discover what those things are because
00:26:05
◼
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you know the things that I do understand
00:26:07
◼
►
the things that I have a great handle on
00:26:09
◼
►
are the things that are easier are the
00:26:11
◼
►
things that came more naturally to me
00:26:12
◼
►
like another area that I think is
00:26:14
◼
►
something that I'm trying to think about
00:26:16
◼
►
more is having a better understanding
00:26:18
◼
►
around graphic design not necessarily in
00:26:23
◼
►
terms of like app design but in terms of
00:26:25
◼
►
you know like actual art type of things
00:26:28
◼
►
and having a better sense of that worry
00:26:30
◼
►
wreck right now with this big scary
00:26:31
◼
►
thing that like I could never do that
00:26:33
◼
►
but I guess history has shown me that
00:26:35
◼
►
all these things that I say oh I could
00:26:37
◼
►
never do that are probably just things
00:26:39
◼
►
that I haven't
00:26:40
◼
►
tried and applied myself too and it's
00:26:44
◼
►
it's an interesting reminder that you
00:26:47
◼
►
know that's the skills that I have now
00:26:49
◼
►
at some point probably look like they
00:26:52
◼
►
you know these other things look to me
00:26:54
◼
►
now do yeah that's fair but you know I
00:26:57
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think also like the life of an indie is
00:26:59
◼
►
its broad like they're they're you know
00:27:03
◼
►
like I think graphic design is a good
00:27:04
◼
►
example because like there are lots of
00:27:06
◼
►
things like deep Lilla programming
00:27:08
◼
►
things that that we won't need to know
00:27:12
◼
►
or shouldn't know because we have to be
00:27:14
◼
►
a little more broad and we have to also
00:27:16
◼
►
know about things like accounting and
00:27:19
◼
►
and business setup to some minor degree
00:27:22
◼
►
and things like graphic design a
00:27:24
◼
►
marketing like we like there is so much
00:27:26
◼
►
out there that we need to know that like
00:27:28
◼
►
you know you you might have already
00:27:30
◼
►
picked up lots of these things along the
00:27:32
◼
►
way but you might not be giving yourself
00:27:33
◼
►
credit for them like it you might you
00:27:35
◼
►
know it sounds like certain things that
00:27:37
◼
►
you perceive as like these big walls
00:27:38
◼
►
that that are intimidating to you in
00:27:40
◼
►
some way that those things count in
00:27:43
◼
►
professional development or betterment
00:27:45
◼
►
but that the the things that you that
00:27:48
◼
►
you pickable on the way of being an
00:27:49
◼
►
independent person and doing things the
00:27:51
◼
►
way that you do them especially like so
00:27:53
◼
►
thoroughly and and analytically you've
00:27:55
◼
►
built and picked up lots of skills along
00:27:57
◼
►
the way in that area that you probably
00:28:00
◼
►
don't even that you you probably just
00:28:03
◼
►
you know did it so gradually or so
00:28:04
◼
►
automatically or did it without thinking
00:28:06
◼
►
too much about you know how you were
00:28:09
◼
►
bettering yourself during that time that
00:28:10
◼
►
you aren't even giving yourself credit
00:28:12
◼
►
but that all counts like you were
00:28:14
◼
►
getting better you you've been getting
00:28:15
◼
►
better lots of things over time they
00:28:17
◼
►
just might not be like low-level API is
00:28:19
◼
►
sure and I mean maybe yeah I think
00:28:21
◼
►
you're it's you're probably true that
00:28:22
◼
►
I'm being oh I'm being too hard on
00:28:24
◼
►
myself with this this thought process
00:28:26
◼
►
but yeah I think maybe that may be the
00:28:29
◼
►
final takeaway to think about this it's
00:28:31
◼
►
just I think it is probably a good thing
00:28:33
◼
►
to be conscious of how we're approaching
00:28:37
◼
►
difficult problems to see if we're not
00:28:41
◼
►
doing them we're not approaching them
00:28:43
◼
►
for the right reasons
00:28:44
◼
►
because fair enough I'm never going to
00:28:45
◼
►
be as good of an icon designer as
00:28:47
◼
►
someone like Louie Mantia I mean to be
00:28:50
◼
►
fair enough very few people yeah
00:28:52
◼
►
right and so like it's not like my goal
00:28:55
◼
►
is to do that it's not that I'm trying
00:28:56
◼
►
to be everything and to accomplish all
00:28:59
◼
►
like to do everything all my own but
00:29:03
◼
►
just because I can't get to that end
00:29:05
◼
►
it's probably still good for me to look
00:29:08
◼
►
at something and say well what could I
00:29:09
◼
►
do you know what could I learn what's in
00:29:11
◼
►
what's one area that I can try and solve
00:29:14
◼
►
the difficult problem and by doing so
00:29:16
◼
►
make myself better and that is almost
00:29:20
◼
►
certainly going to be a productive
00:29:21
◼
►
exercise and with that we're out of time
00:29:23
◼
►
this week thank you everybody for
00:29:24
◼
►
listening and we'll talk to you next