Under the Radar

Under the Radar 78: Difficult Indulgences


00:00:00   welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02   independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04   Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:07   the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08   minutes so let's get started so you as

00:00:13   the listener would probably not be aware

00:00:14   of this but Marco and I have actually

00:00:18   been doing a fair bit of traveling

00:00:19   recently and so we've the you know we've

00:00:21   been having an interesting cycle of

00:00:23   recording shows slightly out of sequence

00:00:25   or bunching them up but for me the most

00:00:28   most recent thing was the last last week

00:00:30   I went on a 110 mile Appalachian Trail

00:00:37   like backpacking trip and did by myself

00:00:40   and ended up with a lot of time too

00:00:43   so I guess as I was wandering around to

00:00:46   think about you know anything about

00:00:50   think about my work think about whether

00:00:51   the things I was making and as a result

00:00:54   of that I think it came with it with a

00:00:55   topic that would be interesting to

00:00:56   discuss here I guess you could say I

00:00:58   developed some perspective

00:00:59   well I while I was out on my walk and

00:01:05   specifically the something that I kept

00:01:06   coming back to was this feeling that one

00:01:10   of the things that is the biggest

00:01:12   challenge I faced in in my work and I

00:01:15   think as an independent is something

00:01:17   that is a pretty common challenge to to

00:01:22   deal with it's this feeling of how do

00:01:24   you deal with like difficult hard often

00:01:28   not particularly interesting problems

00:01:31   that are necessary or are part of the

00:01:34   you know the part of the work that you

00:01:36   do because you know I was as I was

00:01:38   walking along I was thinking about kind

00:01:39   of like the tasks that I'd like to do in

00:01:41   my apps you know what are the big

00:01:42   features what are the things that I want

00:01:44   to tackle and I noticed that almost

00:01:48   everything on the list at this point you

00:01:50   know for a lot of my apps are fairly

00:01:52   mature the things that I run into now

00:01:55   are these difficult hard problems that

00:02:00   you know I know we're solvable it's not

00:02:02   like I'm doing doing some kind of R&D

00:02:04   thing where I'm junior I just want to

00:02:06   like go and invent some crazy new thing

00:02:09   it's like these aren't problems that I

00:02:10   feel like ours should be in the realm of

00:02:12   solvable but they're difficult

00:02:13   but they're hard and being motivated to

00:02:17   tackle them when it isn't the situation

00:02:20   that I have you know have a boss who's

00:02:23   assigning them to me like here's this

00:02:25   feature that you must implement you know

00:02:26   here's what you're going to work on for

00:02:28   the next three weeks if that were the

00:02:30   case that might be a little bit easier

00:02:31   but you know when I have to choose to

00:02:35   essentially I have to choose to

00:02:36   undertake the pain that I know is going

00:02:38   to be implementing that feature going

00:02:40   down the road of you know lots of dead

00:02:43   ends lots of features lots of you know

00:02:45   false starts and you know it attempts at

00:02:48   this particular solution that turns out

00:02:50   to not work out being motivated to do

00:02:53   that is something that I struggle with

00:02:56   but in retrospect when I look at it I

00:02:58   always yeah it's like some of the

00:02:59   features that I'm most proud of tend to

00:03:02   be you know features where I was able to

00:03:05   get over that hump and actually start

00:03:07   working actually get into it actually

00:03:09   solve it you know and then I can look

00:03:11   back and it's usually that's that's the

00:03:13   cool stuff that's the stuff that

00:03:15   separates my apps from you know my

00:03:18   competitors are trying to tackle these

00:03:20   features and one thing that I think and

00:03:24   so as a surface a jumping in point for

00:03:25   this I would wanted to say is I've

00:03:27   always admired with you Marco that it

00:03:29   seems like these are you kind of these

00:03:31   are the features that you almost seem to

00:03:34   relish in doing that going off on these

00:03:36   several month like vision quests where

00:03:39   you dive down into these really

00:03:42   complicated low-level or hard to solve

00:03:46   problems and then you know coming back

00:03:47   with really cool solutions is something

00:03:50   that you've done time and time again for

00:03:52   all of the products that you've made and

00:03:54   so as I was sitting there we're

00:03:56   wandering around and being thinking

00:03:57   about this I was like you know what I

00:03:58   need to do I need to ask Marco like how

00:04:01   do you motivate yourself to tackle those

00:04:05   kinds of problems when you know they're

00:04:06   going to be difficult to get started

00:04:08   with I think it's a lot of like what's

00:04:13   what satisfies you as a programmer like

00:04:15   what do you most like to do and you know

00:04:19   this is different for a lot of people

00:04:21   typically you know what's what's fairly

00:04:23   common among most programmers is that we

00:04:25   like to generally work on new things at

00:04:26   least you know so that's

00:04:27   that's like one-one you know big gimme

00:04:30   is like you know we are almost always

00:04:32   motivated to to work on something new

00:04:34   that's it that interests us for me one

00:04:37   of those things is tricky low-level code

00:04:42   some kind of like you know low-level

00:04:46   dealing with bits or bytes or sound or

00:04:50   algorithm type things that aren't too

00:04:53   academically hard but that require like

00:04:56   low-level messing around I always really

00:05:00   enjoy that stuff so you know it in in

00:05:03   overcast there's things like the audio

00:05:04   engine you know all the effects the be

00:05:08   smart speed of voice boost effects you

00:05:10   know that that stuff always I just did

00:05:13   enjoy it and when when there's something

00:05:15   like that that I enjoy you know like

00:05:17   most programmers I would I think I would

00:05:19   rather work on the kind of thing I enjoy

00:05:21   even if it means you know ignoring or

00:05:24   procrastinating the more boring things

00:05:27   that I probably should also do I think

00:05:28   this is a problem most programmers have

00:05:30   the only question is what those

00:05:31   interesting things are I mean to me like

00:05:34   here I was like writing this crazy you

00:05:36   know watch offline transcoding engine

00:05:40   and at the same time ice overcast is

00:05:44   almost three years old and I've never

00:05:46   had an email change form and my password

00:05:48   resets are I think a little bit broken

00:05:50   that that is totally backwards

00:05:53   priorities like I really like I get

00:05:55   emails from people I'd say almost every

00:05:59   day saying hey is there a way for me to

00:06:02   change my account email address and the

00:06:04   answer is no there isn't and there

00:06:06   really should be I should have done that

00:06:08   like on week one or week two overcast

00:06:11   almost three years ago but I haven't

00:06:13   because it's it's never you know the

00:06:17   idea of doing that is like you know

00:06:19   terminally uninteresting to me to the

00:06:22   point where anything else that I have to

00:06:24   do with the app has taken priority over

00:06:27   that for the last two two-and-a-half

00:06:28   years and so for me like diving into

00:06:32   these really hard tricky problems is you

00:06:36   know it's often procrastination and it's

00:06:39   off it's just it's what I like to do

00:06:41   it's like

00:06:41   anything I like to do for me like what's

00:06:44   what's heavily motivating usually is

00:06:47   either things that are things that make

00:06:50   me money directly like like you know

00:06:53   writing an ad system writing that system

00:06:55   has actually been a lot more work than I

00:06:56   expected it to be it's you know it's not

00:06:58   I'm not like writing a whole network

00:07:00   like Adsense or anything but just

00:07:03   putting the parts in place to have a

00:07:04   decent ad system that's that's but

00:07:07   that's good for both me and the buyers

00:07:09   of the ads and the users and you know

00:07:12   and all the different like little

00:07:13   management tools you need like the

00:07:15   ability to like to monitor how they're

00:07:17   doing and give people stats and issue

00:07:18   refunds if necessary and things like

00:07:20   that you know I I'm having to build all

00:07:22   this stuff from scratch and I'm I've

00:07:24   been mostly motivated to do that pretty

00:07:26   well because it is directly related to

00:07:29   how I'm making money and it's doing well

00:07:31   so far so that that motivates me on that

00:07:33   angle but also I get very heavily

00:07:35   motivated by doing something cool with

00:07:38   you know with low level stuff you know

00:07:40   like this morning so we're doing were

00:07:43   actually doing live shows we as we

00:07:45   mentioned on this show I think a couple

00:07:47   of weeks ago we are doing under the

00:07:49   radar live at Cocoa conf at WBC that

00:07:52   COCOMs running a conference called next

00:07:53   door which is like literally next door

00:07:56   down the block from the from Muska or

00:07:58   from the San Jose Convention Center

00:08:00   where WBC is being held and we will be

00:08:02   doing this show live that week on the

00:08:05   Tuesday because I think June 6th right

00:08:07   at about 1:45 p.m. Pacific and and I'm

00:08:12   also also doing ATP live the day before

00:08:15   then the evening before at Coco Kampf

00:08:17   I mean sorry adult conf rather and so

00:08:20   we're doing these live shows and I

00:08:22   thought you know it would be nice if I

00:08:24   had a soundboard app for ATP and a timer

00:08:27   app for this show and to show on my

00:08:31   computer screen during the show so this

00:08:34   morning I I spent this morning writing a

00:08:37   sound board there are a million sound

00:08:39   board apps out there but none of them

00:08:40   were exactly what I wanted I wanted of

00:08:41   course my own custom thing because I'm

00:08:43   I'm picky like that and so I spent the

00:08:45   morning writing a sound board I was

00:08:46   woken up early by my allergies I

00:08:48   couldn't breathe anymore so I figured

00:08:49   let's get to programming it can't sleep

00:08:51   anymore so let's get the program

00:08:53   so so that was you know novel it was

00:08:57   kind of dealing with audio stuff because

00:08:59   of course I had to build in things like

00:09:00   automatically detecting when the out

00:09:02   when the output device becomes

00:09:03   unavailable and putting up a little

00:09:05   alert thing on the top so I don't you

00:09:08   know so I noticed that if I'd happens

00:09:09   during recording stuff I'm never gonna

00:09:11   really need like I'm really glad that

00:09:13   that makes no no sense I shouldn't have

00:09:16   written my own soundboard app there's

00:09:18   there's many of them in the App Store on

00:09:20   the Mac App Store there's probably even

00:09:22   more in iOS and there's probably eat

00:09:25   there's even more of them outside of the

00:09:27   App Store but I wrote it anyway because

00:09:29   I had a few hours to kill I was

00:09:31   delirious from waking up too early on

00:09:33   allergy medicine and I decided you know

00:09:35   what this is gonna be a fun thing to do

00:09:36   and I approached the the watch offline

00:09:40   playback thing with pretty much the same

00:09:43   motivations - the allergy component

00:09:45   because it was at the winter time and my

00:09:49   motivation there was really like I I

00:09:52   want to you know IIIi was I wanted to

00:09:56   make this feature and why I wanted to

00:09:58   make it I guess we can get into some

00:09:59   other time or maybe later but I wanted

00:10:01   to make this feature and I knew it was

00:10:04   not going to be used by a lot of people

00:10:07   but I thought if I'm going to do this

00:10:09   feature I need to do it well and the

00:10:12   biggest problem was you know on the like

00:10:15   transferring files to the watch like

00:10:17   there's no I couldn't do smart speed on

00:10:18   the watch and the trend the file

00:10:20   transfers were giant and too slow to

00:10:22   chance to transfer so I decided let me

00:10:25   see if I can write a transcoding engine

00:10:26   because you know I I phones are pretty

00:10:28   fast these days and so what this this

00:10:31   was kind of like a like a perfect storm

00:10:34   of motivations for me to do something

00:10:37   which is that it was a hard technical

00:10:40   challenge none of my competitors as far

00:10:43   as I know were doing it and it

00:10:47   accomplished something that I think most

00:10:51   people thought wasn't possible or

00:10:52   wouldn't have thought to do and I love

00:10:55   that combination like to me that's a

00:10:57   huge motivator and then to end it to

00:11:00   also involve you know there's this

00:11:01   low-level audio stuff that I enjoy so

00:11:03   much was it was just the cherry on top

00:11:06   and then of course up

00:11:07   zatia trying to make the transcodes

00:11:08   faster it's a fun game to play when

00:11:11   you're a programmer of like hey you know

00:11:12   if I if I change the way I do this it

00:11:14   becomes 10 times faster let's see how

00:11:15   many times I can do that and it it ends

00:11:19   up just being very satisfying and this

00:11:21   is this was one of the problems with

00:11:24   being an indie and not having anybody

00:11:26   like telling me what I need to be

00:11:28   working on that often times these kind

00:11:30   of deep dives into difficult technical

00:11:33   features often times these are not a

00:11:34   good idea often times they're not an

00:11:36   efficient use of your time in fact I

00:11:38   would say probably most of the time they

00:11:40   aren't an efficient use of your time but

00:11:43   because I define my own you know to-do

00:11:47   list basically and that's one of the

00:11:49   benefits of doing your own products

00:11:51   because it I find my own to-do list I

00:11:53   basically take the indulgence of doing

00:11:57   cool things like this because it let's

00:11:58   be honest it is largely an indulgence to

00:12:00   be able to do stuff like this cuz you

00:12:02   know a lot of times you're not gonna get

00:12:03   paid back on I mean I did this entire

00:12:05   watch offline playback feature and so

00:12:08   far it's being used by something like

00:12:10   0.2% of users every day it's it's very

00:12:13   very low according to my awesome

00:12:14   home-built analytics which I also built

00:12:16   but there's actually isn't awesome it is

00:12:19   home built analytics I would not

00:12:20   describe it as awesome but so you know

00:12:23   it's being used by very few people it

00:12:25   probably isn't the best idea for

00:12:27   business to have done it if I am honest

00:12:29   with myself but it was a really hard

00:12:31   problem that that satisfied me immensely

00:12:34   while working on it it is right am I in

00:12:37   my wheelhouse of like low-level audio

00:12:39   stuff that I enjoy working on so much

00:12:40   and it gave me a competitive advantage

00:12:44   even though it's a very very small one

00:12:45   but it gave me a competitive advantage

00:12:47   at least for the time being and I'm you

00:12:49   know I'm sure that won't last very long

00:12:50   but for the time being it's there and so

00:12:53   all those it just it forms motivation

00:12:57   like when it has a combination like that

00:12:58   whereas if you are somebody who doesn't

00:13:01   like working on low level C code for

00:13:03   dealing with core audio stuff or you

00:13:06   know whatever it whatever your hard

00:13:08   problem that's facing you might be if

00:13:11   that doesn't interest you I totally get

00:13:14   why you wouldn't want to do it or you

00:13:15   know why you'd why you procrastinated or

00:13:17   you know just try to find ways around

00:13:19   doing it

00:13:21   and there's lots of things like that for

00:13:22   me just not this kind of thing yeah

00:13:25   because I feel like what I'm hearing is

00:13:27   it's the a it's like the first step is

00:13:30   to kind of try and understand yourself

00:13:33   and understand what things are going to

00:13:38   mix you know what things are you going

00:13:41   to enjoy building are you gonna be

00:13:42   motivated to build what's the kind of

00:13:44   thing you know what would be like Lola

00:13:46   who audio stuff just sounds awful to me

00:13:48   like my little experience with that has

00:13:51   always been you know pain and suffering

00:13:55   rather than you know joy and delight and

00:13:58   so like for me you know it's like those

00:14:00   probably aren't the directions to that

00:14:02   you know would motivate me to go into

00:14:04   and I think maybe there's something a

00:14:05   interesting and understanding that you

00:14:08   know in you and I in some ways are as

00:14:10   similar at premium professionally as two

00:14:14   people could be in some ways you know

00:14:16   we've both been doing the same basically

00:14:18   the same job for the last eight years

00:14:21   you know we do it in fair in sort of

00:14:23   fairly similar ways we make our living

00:14:26   fairly similarly yeah but even there

00:14:28   even still we have these varied I think

00:14:29   very different preferences and things

00:14:34   that we would act the parts of the job

00:14:35   that we actually enjoy and so it's good

00:14:39   to just I think be introspective

00:14:40   probably first and understanding you

00:14:44   know it when I see myself

00:14:46   procrastinating I think one of the

00:14:48   things that I've started to try and ask

00:14:50   myself it's like why don't I want to do

00:14:53   that because usually there's a reason

00:14:55   and sometimes it's a good reason and

00:14:58   sometimes you know it's a bad reason but

00:15:00   you know the end up with lots of the but

00:15:02   you end up with the you know this funny

00:15:03   situation of at a certain point like

00:15:05   either you know when you're independent

00:15:09   you either will be in the situation

00:15:10   where the thing just won't get done

00:15:13   because there's not like there's someone

00:15:15   else on the team who it can get punted

00:15:17   to it's like it's you're you're going to

00:15:20   do it or you're not and so trying to at

00:15:24   least understand why you're not doing it

00:15:26   you know there are many features and I

00:15:28   mean I have whole apps that you know

00:15:30   I've sort of I've half-heartedly built

00:15:32   or I

00:15:33   I didn't it's nice for some reason

00:15:36   didn't catch my imagination I guess you

00:15:38   could say it's like if it if it didn't

00:15:40   if it doesn't have that getting can't

00:15:42   get over that initial hump it'll just

00:15:44   sit there and kind of languish and even

00:15:46   when it might from a business

00:15:50   perspective be a good idea or you know

00:15:52   from a just in a utility to the world's

00:15:56   perspective might be a good thing like

00:15:58   theirs if it doesn't catch my attention

00:16:02   I know I won't really be able to do it

00:16:05   and so it is something that I don't but

00:16:06   I think increasingly and this is where I

00:16:09   was trying to think I'm sort of coming

00:16:11   around to is well while I think that is

00:16:14   how I've acted for for a long time now

00:16:18   like I look at my board my business and

00:16:19   I think you know like I think I'm by

00:16:23   allowing myself to do the things that

00:16:27   only the things that I enjoy I'm

00:16:29   probably hurting the effectiveness of my

00:16:33   of my business which is you know which

00:16:36   is problematic in some ways but honestly

00:16:38   like the more fundamental thing that I'm

00:16:40   starting to worry about and I'm starting

00:16:41   to think about a lot more is I'm not

00:16:45   getting better at a very fast rate

00:16:49   anymore that you know my skills and my

00:16:51   abilities as I go down this would be you

00:16:56   know as I keep doing the things that I'm

00:16:57   good at and enjoy doing I get better I

00:17:01   get incrementally better at doing those

00:17:02   things but I don't tackle these bigger

00:17:05   harder problems and you know it's like

00:17:06   your example of like a password reset

00:17:08   form or an email change form like it's

00:17:12   not that that's a hard text problem to

00:17:14   do but I know for myself

00:17:15   I have all these features sort of in

00:17:17   that vein that I haven't done

00:17:20   and as a result like they're probably

00:17:23   disproportionately more difficult to do

00:17:26   than they should be because it shouldn't

00:17:28   be that hard to do a lot some of these

00:17:30   things they're fairly straightforward

00:17:31   but if you put them off for long enough

00:17:33   and you know at a certain point it

00:17:35   actually does become difficult because

00:17:36   you become very rusty at doing those

00:17:39   kinds of things yeah I mean otherwise it

00:17:41   would take a lot of rust to be too rusty

00:17:43   to make an email change form but sure

00:17:44   you know and there's a couple things

00:17:46   there I want to unpack

00:17:47   you know one of them the the getting

00:17:49   better at new things and learning the

00:17:51   things that I think we should we should

00:17:52   come back to but also you know I think

00:17:54   it's important that as I mentioned like

00:17:56   one of the one of the benefits of

00:17:58   working for yourself is being able to to

00:18:01   look at a lot of the things that that

00:18:03   the world wants you to do or that you

00:18:06   think you're obligated to do and on some

00:18:09   of those you can just say no and not all

00:18:11   of them and you know some of them are

00:18:12   more important than others some of them

00:18:13   there's there's more ramifications if

00:18:15   you if you don't do them you know that

00:18:18   you should think about but you know like

00:18:20   so many things I think there's a healthy

00:18:23   balance to be found you know you're an

00:18:25   indie you have the ability to not do

00:18:28   stuff you don't want to do and you have

00:18:31   the ability as I said earlier to to you

00:18:33   know take the indulgence of working on

00:18:36   something that might not be worth the

00:18:38   time you're putting into it in pure

00:18:40   business terms but that you might want

00:18:41   to do anyway it's it's kind of like

00:18:45   eating dessert well you know that's

00:18:47   that's why I use I use the term

00:18:48   indulgence because like you're allowed

00:18:50   to give yourself that you're allowed to

00:18:51   do these something cool that that it

00:18:54   doesn't make sense for that from the

00:18:55   business as long as you don't only do

00:18:57   that as long as you don't you don't do

00:18:58   that out of balance such that your

00:19:00   business will suffer and you won't be

00:19:02   able to do this anymore like and that's

00:19:03   this is a balance that many many

00:19:06   companies and Indies have a hard time

00:19:09   striking you know everyone has like

00:19:11   their pet project they would love to do

00:19:12   or their their their preferred way of

00:19:14   doing things and and if it's if it

00:19:17   doesn't make sense business-wise to do

00:19:19   that

00:19:19   you can still do it sometimes you know

00:19:21   you can have fun with things you can

00:19:23   have side projects you can you can you

00:19:25   know take the the indulgence of doing

00:19:27   some kind of like crazy ridiculous thing

00:19:29   to make your app 1% better because you

00:19:31   just wanted to do it that just can't be

00:19:33   all you do and similarly you know the

00:19:35   list of things that like it's a huge

00:19:38   problem if you don't do them there are a

00:19:40   few things on there that that's true for

00:19:41   but that isn't true for the whole list

00:19:43   and as an indie I feel like you should

00:19:45   you should let yourself have that that's

00:19:47   part you know we as Indies we do a lot

00:19:49   of a lot more you know administration

00:19:53   and management of stuff like taxes and

00:19:55   accounting all stuff like we take on a

00:19:57   lot of burdens there and we also take a

00:19:59   huge risk compared

00:20:01   people who work for other people and I

00:20:03   think part of the reason we take that

00:20:05   and part of the payoff of doing that is

00:20:07   this ability to to you know miss spend

00:20:11   some of our time because we can we can

00:20:13   decide to do that as long as it doesn't

00:20:15   cause problems for the business as a

00:20:17   whole you know as long as we keep

00:20:18   everything a balance this episode of

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00:22:01   of this show and all of real afm all

00:22:04   right so I think it is worth coming back

00:22:06   a little bit to what you said earlier

00:22:07   about you know that you're you aren't

00:22:09   getting better as quickly as you used to

00:22:11   or as quickly as you want to and that's

00:22:13   so you know

00:22:14   if you do like the indie indulgence I do

00:22:17   it I want kind of thing like for too

00:22:18   long then this this is a problem that

00:22:21   like you will only do the things that

00:22:23   you want to do and you won't get better

00:22:26   other things and hi I have the same

00:22:29   problem in in a lot of areas you know

00:22:31   it's so you know for example things like

00:22:33   I haven't really been pressured to learn

00:22:34   Swift because why would I you know look

00:22:37   as we've discussed like wait there's

00:22:39   some reasons I'm kind of interested in

00:22:40   it a little bit and everything but like

00:22:42   when it comes down to you know what I

00:22:44   actually do day to day there's nothing

00:22:46   really pushing me to learn it right this

00:22:47   second or to convert or anything or to

00:22:49   write new code and Swift you know right

00:22:50   now

00:22:51   there is no like you know big standard

00:22:53   we also talked about how neither of us

00:22:54   are very heavy unit testers

00:22:56   there's nothing forcing us to become

00:22:57   heavy unit testers but you know certain

00:23:02   things do it bring new topics to us and

00:23:05   new skills to us out of necessity so

00:23:07   things like you know when when it when

00:23:09   the AppStore economic landscape shifts

00:23:12   around we're forced to do different

00:23:13   types of business models are forced to

00:23:15   try things like freemium and ads and

00:23:17   things like that and and so I feel like

00:23:20   just being in this ecosystem does push

00:23:24   us into a few new things here and there

00:23:26   but obviously not you know every kind of

00:23:29   thing I'm wondering like is there is

00:23:30   there a specific kind of area or example

00:23:33   that that you feel like you you know

00:23:35   should be getting better in but just are

00:23:38   not being pressured to I mean I think

00:23:40   the hardest thing about that question is

00:23:42   that it's it falls a lot in the it's

00:23:46   like the it's an unknown loss that it's

00:23:50   like it's hard for me to know exactly if

00:23:53   there's a particular area where I'm

00:23:54   deficient because in some ways by the

00:23:57   very nature of it being a deficiency

00:23:59   being an area that I'm not exposed to

00:24:01   being something that I'm not

00:24:03   you know it's forcing myself to

00:24:06   undertake I don't understand what I'm

00:24:10   missing out on and so it's it's tricky

00:24:13   like but I think about the situations

00:24:15   where like I used to be really scared

00:24:20   about dealing with low-level core

00:24:22   graphic stuff like that was an area like

00:24:25   doing animations or things like that

00:24:27   that I used to think

00:24:28   we're really it was it was just this

00:24:31   whole this little black box that I never

00:24:32   opened up that it was just terrifying to

00:24:34   me and I read more recently like I've

00:24:39   gotten used to that and like I in

00:24:41   activity plus plus was in area where

00:24:43   it's like I hit this wall where I was

00:24:45   trying to make this animation and all of

00:24:47   a sudden it's like the only way I'm

00:24:48   going to be able to do this is if I drop

00:24:50   down a level and so I it's like well I

00:24:54   really liked this thought I had in my

00:24:56   mind for what the animation would look

00:24:58   like and so I dived I drove in and I

00:24:59   really you know like learned all this

00:25:02   crazy stuff and got it to work and it's

00:25:05   like now I have this whole other tool

00:25:07   set that I can you know as I'm looking

00:25:11   at problems in you know my other apps

00:25:13   are in new apps I have this whole tool

00:25:14   set that I just completely didn't have

00:25:16   before and these capabilities that I

00:25:18   didn't even like I sort of

00:25:20   intellectually knew probably existed but

00:25:23   I didn't really understand what that

00:25:24   meant and I think that is like that

00:25:26   experience that you can sort of

00:25:29   intellectually know that something is

00:25:32   possible but until you've actually done

00:25:34   it it can be really you don't really

00:25:37   know what you're missing out on and I

00:25:39   think when I the the thing that I was

00:25:40   trying to sort of Chasen myself with in

00:25:44   this experience or like in this thought

00:25:46   process that I've been having recently

00:25:47   is the I don't know what all those

00:25:50   things are that I'm missing and but I

00:25:53   know that they exist and I want to try

00:25:58   and motivate myself to tackle problems

00:26:00   that are difficult so that I can

00:26:02   discover what those things are because

00:26:05   you know the things that I do understand

00:26:07   the things that I have a great handle on

00:26:09   are the things that are easier are the

00:26:11   things that came more naturally to me

00:26:12   like another area that I think is

00:26:14   something that I'm trying to think about

00:26:16   more is having a better understanding

00:26:18   around graphic design not necessarily in

00:26:23   terms of like app design but in terms of

00:26:25   you know like actual art type of things

00:26:28   and having a better sense of that worry

00:26:30   wreck right now with this big scary

00:26:31   thing that like I could never do that

00:26:33   but I guess history has shown me that

00:26:35   all these things that I say oh I could

00:26:37   never do that are probably just things

00:26:39   that I haven't

00:26:40   tried and applied myself too and it's

00:26:44   it's an interesting reminder that you

00:26:47   know that's the skills that I have now

00:26:49   at some point probably look like they

00:26:52   you know these other things look to me

00:26:54   now do yeah that's fair but you know I

00:26:57   think also like the life of an indie is

00:26:59   its broad like they're they're you know

00:27:03   like I think graphic design is a good

00:27:04   example because like there are lots of

00:27:06   things like deep Lilla programming

00:27:08   things that that we won't need to know

00:27:12   or shouldn't know because we have to be

00:27:14   a little more broad and we have to also

00:27:16   know about things like accounting and

00:27:19   and business setup to some minor degree

00:27:22   and things like graphic design a

00:27:24   marketing like we like there is so much

00:27:26   out there that we need to know that like

00:27:28   you know you you might have already

00:27:30   picked up lots of these things along the

00:27:32   way but you might not be giving yourself

00:27:33   credit for them like it you might you

00:27:35   know it sounds like certain things that

00:27:37   you perceive as like these big walls

00:27:38   that that are intimidating to you in

00:27:40   some way that those things count in

00:27:43   professional development or betterment

00:27:45   but that the the things that you that

00:27:48   you pickable on the way of being an

00:27:49   independent person and doing things the

00:27:51   way that you do them especially like so

00:27:53   thoroughly and and analytically you've

00:27:55   built and picked up lots of skills along

00:27:57   the way in that area that you probably

00:28:00   don't even that you you probably just

00:28:03   you know did it so gradually or so

00:28:04   automatically or did it without thinking

00:28:06   too much about you know how you were

00:28:09   bettering yourself during that time that

00:28:10   you aren't even giving yourself credit

00:28:12   but that all counts like you were

00:28:14   getting better you you've been getting

00:28:15   better lots of things over time they

00:28:17   just might not be like low-level API is

00:28:19   sure and I mean maybe yeah I think

00:28:21   you're it's you're probably true that

00:28:22   I'm being oh I'm being too hard on

00:28:24   myself with this this thought process

00:28:26   but yeah I think maybe that may be the

00:28:29   final takeaway to think about this it's

00:28:31   just I think it is probably a good thing

00:28:33   to be conscious of how we're approaching

00:28:37   difficult problems to see if we're not

00:28:41   doing them we're not approaching them

00:28:43   for the right reasons

00:28:44   because fair enough I'm never going to

00:28:45   be as good of an icon designer as

00:28:47   someone like Louie Mantia I mean to be

00:28:50   fair enough very few people yeah

00:28:52   right and so like it's not like my goal

00:28:55   is to do that it's not that I'm trying

00:28:56   to be everything and to accomplish all

00:28:59   like to do everything all my own but

00:29:03   just because I can't get to that end

00:29:05   it's probably still good for me to look

00:29:08   at something and say well what could I

00:29:09   do you know what could I learn what's in

00:29:11   what's one area that I can try and solve

00:29:14   the difficult problem and by doing so

00:29:16   make myself better and that is almost

00:29:20   certainly going to be a productive

00:29:21   exercise and with that we're out of time

00:29:23   this week thank you everybody for

00:29:24   listening and we'll talk to you next

00:29:26   week right