Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar of show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:07 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today we

00:00:11 ◼   ► wanted to talk about sure locking which

00:00:14 ◼   ► is a term that is often strikes fear

00:00:18 ◼   ► into the hearts of independent

00:00:20 ◼   ► developers but first before I get into

00:00:22 ◼   ► the actual like our personal experiences

00:00:24 ◼   ► with it I didn't want to take a moment

00:00:26 ◼   ► to explain what it is and where the term

00:00:28 ◼   ► comes from because it is an entirely

00:00:29 ◼   ► non-obvious term so it goes back to a

00:00:33 ◼   ► utility that was written back many many

00:00:36 ◼   ► many years ago that I can't even

00:00:39 ◼   ► honestly it was before my time on the

00:00:40 ◼   ► Mac but there's utility called Watson

00:00:42 ◼   ► that did something and then Apple came

00:00:45 ◼   ► along and created and shipped with the

00:00:47 ◼   ► OS an application called Sherlock which

00:00:50 ◼   ► did everything that Watson did and

00:00:52 ◼   ► effectively put Watson out of business

00:00:54 ◼   ► so Sherlock he has taken on the

00:00:56 ◼   ► connotation of any time Apple or I guess

00:01:00 ◼   ► you could probably generalize this to

00:01:01 ◼   ► you know the platform vendor takes a

00:01:05 ◼   ► feature or functionality or a whole

00:01:07 ◼   ► stock in application and copies it and

00:01:10 ◼   ► ships it sort of by default into the

00:01:13 ◼   ► operating system which as you would

00:01:16 ◼   ► expect is often something that is a

00:01:18 ◼   ► little bit scary for that developer who

00:01:21 ◼   ► just got copied because now the thing

00:01:24 ◼   ► that you've been working so hard on

00:01:25 ◼   ► building the thing that hopefully had

00:01:26 ◼   ► some kind of unique business you know

00:01:28 ◼   ► business run around it and was useful to

00:01:30 ◼   ► customers suddenly everyone gets for

00:01:32 ◼   ► free and large in some ways it's like

00:01:35 ◼   ► being the inevitable first thought is

00:01:37 ◼   ► well I'm out of business now which isn't

00:01:40 ◼   ► always the case but is something I think

00:01:42 ◼   ► that we thought we wanted to unpack and

00:01:44 ◼   ► this is top of mind for me right now

00:01:46 ◼   ► because I kind of have expectations of

00:01:49 ◼   ► some of the things that I'm working on

00:01:51 ◼   ► now that will inevitably be Sherlock

00:01:53 ◼   ► which we'll talk about a little bit

00:01:54 ◼   ► later and so it's something that I think

00:01:58 ◼   ► it's always worth thinking about that

00:02:00 ◼   ► while on the plus side it's awesome that

00:02:02 ◼   ► you know when Apple creates capabilities

00:02:04 ◼   ► and opportunities on their platform you

00:02:06 ◼   ► know they had a new API

00:02:07 ◼   ► you know when they added the motion

00:02:09 ◼   ► coprocessor to the iPhone like that was

00:02:11 ◼   ► awesome for me I made an app

00:02:12 ◼   ► called me have a sub susceptor and built

00:02:14 ◼   ► this whole sort of line of business for

00:02:17 ◼   ► myself because of that like they created

00:02:18 ◼   ► that opportunity now if Apple went the

00:02:20 ◼   ► you know the next step and created their

00:02:22 ◼   ► own stuff tracker then suddenly it

00:02:25 ◼   ► becomes you know problematic and

00:02:27 ◼   ► something that I wouldn't be as excited

00:02:29 ◼   ► about and that tension between these two

00:02:31 ◼   ► things so we know what Apple chooses to

00:02:34 ◼   ► support in terms of like creating an API

00:02:37 ◼   ► to encourage the development in an area

00:02:39 ◼   ► and the areas where apple says you know

00:02:41 ◼   ► what this is so fundamental to the

00:02:43 ◼   ► applicant you know to the use of this

00:02:45 ◼   ► device or the use of this operating

00:02:47 ◼   ► system that we're gonna build this in

00:02:48 ◼   ► you know it's like if Apple didn't have

00:02:51 ◼   ► a camera app on the iPhone that would

00:02:54 ◼   ► feel really weird

00:02:55 ◼   ► even if third parties could make awesome

00:02:57 ◼   ► camera apps like it's such a fundamental

00:02:58 ◼   ► part of it and so you know Apple is in

00:03:01 ◼   ► this process of gradually expanding out

00:03:04 ◼   ► what is considered sort of default or

00:03:06 ◼   ► what comes with it and I think we both

00:03:08 ◼   ► you and I Marco have some experience

00:03:10 ◼   ► with this and I think we will start off

00:03:12 ◼   ► the for this episode is talk a little

00:03:14 ◼   ► bit about some of our past examples so I

00:03:17 ◼   ► was wondering if you could start us off

00:03:18 ◼   ► by telling the story of Instapaper and

00:03:21 ◼   ► reading lists sure yeah so this was my

00:03:24 ◼   ► first Sherlock as a developer basically

00:03:27 ◼   ► I made Instapaper which was a save web

00:03:30 ◼   ► pages for reading later service back in

00:03:33 ◼   ► something like 2008 it was really a long

00:03:36 ◼   ► time ago might even the fall of was 7 it

00:03:40 ◼   ► was a very long time ago I don't even

00:03:41 ◼   ► remember right now but ever ad in that

00:03:43 ◼   ► ballpark and yeah an insta paper was you

00:03:45 ◼   ► know there's this this fairly successful

00:03:47 ◼   ► app that is actually still around I

00:03:51 ◼   ► don't I don't use it anymore but it's

00:03:52 ◼   ► still around and basically the the idea

00:03:56 ◼   ► of it is you know you save web pages

00:03:58 ◼   ► sorry later and you then go into you

00:04:01 ◼   ► know you're on a page you save it you go

00:04:03 ◼   ► into the in paper app and you can get a

00:04:05 ◼   ► list of everything you save and and that

00:04:07 ◼   ► list syncs between different devices on

00:04:09 ◼   ► the website you can save things from

00:04:11 ◼   ► your Mac to read on your phone or our

00:04:12 ◼   ► iPad so there's like cross-device saving

00:04:15 ◼   ► and syncing and everything's safe for

00:04:16 ◼   ► offline use and everything saved in this

00:04:19 ◼   ► nice like text only customisable nice

00:04:22 ◼   ► reading view and different parts that

00:04:24 ◼   ► had been done before but the combin

00:04:26 ◼   ► of those things was never done before

00:04:27 ◼   ► and so I kind of felt like I like owned

00:04:30 ◼   ► that concept which is kind of a naive

00:04:31 ◼   ► place to be honestly but that's what I

00:04:33 ◼   ► felt at the time and and then over the

00:04:36 ◼   ► next coming couple years a couple of

00:04:38 ◼   ► competitors did the same thing and then

00:04:39 ◼   ► eventually Apple in say I guess I had to

00:04:42 ◼   ► look it up in in 2011 Apple announced

00:04:46 ◼   ► that Mac OS lion would include this

00:04:50 ◼   ► feature in Safari called reading list

00:04:52 ◼   ► and at first it was really simple it was

00:04:56 ◼   ► like you get to save a bookmark to read

00:04:58 ◼   ► later and it shows up in this list and

00:05:00 ◼   ► it was basically like a faster version

00:05:01 ◼   ► of bookmarks there were none of the

00:05:03 ◼   ► other features there was no cross-device

00:05:05 ◼   ► sync there was no textview there was no

00:05:07 ◼   ► like you know mobile version there was

00:05:10 ◼   ► nothing in iOS about it so at first I

00:05:12 ◼   ► was like oh well this isn't this I even

00:05:13 ◼   ► wear these blog posts like this isn't a

00:05:15 ◼   ► competitor to instigate because it

00:05:16 ◼   ► doesn't have all these things I'm not

00:05:17 ◼   ► sure locked yet haha and then over the

00:05:20 ◼   ► next couple of years like 2012 2008 they

00:05:22 ◼   ► slowly added pretty much all of the

00:05:24 ◼   ► other features they they added it to iOS

00:05:26 ◼   ► they added sync they added offline

00:05:28 ◼   ► downloading of the pages that you save

00:05:30 ◼   ► they added their text view which is kind

00:05:32 ◼   ► of a separate thing and so like anyway

00:05:34 ◼   ► they basically slowly added all of

00:05:36 ◼   ► instigators core features and we're

00:05:38 ◼   ► they've kind of left it alone for the

00:05:39 ◼   ► last couple years because I think it's

00:05:42 ◼   ► basically a complete feature at this

00:05:43 ◼   ► point what instapaper was it is the

00:05:46 ◼   ► essence of that service and it's missing

00:05:47 ◼   ► tons and tons of features that

00:05:49 ◼   ► Instapaper has but it doesn't matter

00:05:51 ◼   ► what matters is that it's built in and

00:05:54 ◼   ► it's convenient and it's free and

00:05:56 ◼   ► everyone has it by default and I kept

00:06:00 ◼   ► talking like over those over the years

00:06:02 ◼   ► as reading lists came out and then

00:06:04 ◼   ► slowly got better and slowly moved more

00:06:06 ◼   ► into a direct competitor of Instapaper

00:06:09 ◼   ► I kept telling myself like yeah this is

00:06:11 ◼   ► fine it's not really gonna compete with

00:06:13 ◼   ► me it's not gonna affect my sales it

00:06:15 ◼   ► might even help my sales people are

00:06:16 ◼   ► gonna find it and then realize they want

00:06:18 ◼   ► something better and come find mine and

00:06:20 ◼   ► as far as I can tell I don't I don't

00:06:24 ◼   ► know if any of those things were true

00:06:26 ◼   ► in retrospect I mean I I wasn't as good

00:06:29 ◼   ► of a business person back then not that

00:06:31 ◼   ► I'm great now but I'm less bad now and

00:06:34 ◼   ► so it's hard to tell whether various

00:06:37 ◼   ► business failures or

00:06:40 ◼   ► were because of other things like my

00:06:42 ◼   ► pricing decisions at the time or

00:06:44 ◼   ► marketing decisions or whatever else or

00:06:46 ◼   ► whether it was because of an because of

00:06:48 ◼   ► reading lists and and any other

00:06:50 ◼   ► competition that was out there but the

00:06:52 ◼   ► main one I think was reading list

00:06:53 ◼   ► because it was built in and for a while

00:06:55 ◼   ► like before extensions reading lists had

00:06:58 ◼   ► way more of a privileged position than I

00:07:00 ◼   ► did because there were buttons all over

00:07:02 ◼   ► the OS for adding linkster to reading

00:07:04 ◼   ► list and you couldn't do that before

00:07:05 ◼   ► extensions you couldn't have your app

00:07:07 ◼   ► but up here in those kind of buttons so

00:07:08 ◼   ► and there's actually still a couple

00:07:10 ◼   ► places I think like a nail where there's

00:07:12 ◼   ► still no system share sheet but there's

00:07:14 ◼   ► a couple of menus that that have like

00:07:16 ◼   ► open copy and add to reading list so

00:07:18 ◼   ► there's still a few few places like that

00:07:20 ◼   ► but anyway so all that time I kept

00:07:23 ◼   ► thinking like oh I'll be fine I'll still

00:07:26 ◼   ► be the deluxe option and then oh well

00:07:29 ◼   ► they're not going to copy all my

00:07:30 ◼   ► features and basically they're really

00:07:33 ◼   ► good at copying the features that matter

00:07:34 ◼   ► and even if they don't copy them all

00:07:37 ◼   ► they copy a lot that matter and they

00:07:39 ◼   ► they often are good enough I do think

00:07:41 ◼   ► there is a danger in sure locking that

00:07:43 ◼   ► we often want to minimize in our heads

00:07:47 ◼   ► or deny or try to turn around into a

00:07:49 ◼   ► positive thing but the reality is when

00:07:52 ◼   ► when the platform vendor that you're on

00:07:55 ◼   ► neutralizes the main features that you

00:07:57 ◼   ► have has an advantage by adding them

00:07:59 ◼   ► themselves it's a pretty big deal it it

00:08:02 ◼   ► probably does really affect your

00:08:04 ◼   ► business there might be cases where

00:08:06 ◼   ► that's not true but it's certainly not

00:08:09 ◼   ► going to be a great thing now how much

00:08:11 ◼   ► of a bad thing it'll be is probably very

00:08:14 ◼   ► dependent on the situation and on you

00:08:16 ◼   ► and your products in your customer base

00:08:17 ◼   ► and in most cases I don't think it's

00:08:20 ◼   ► going to be incredibly fatal I think

00:08:22 ◼   ► it's very rare where it's really fatal

00:08:23 ◼   ► but because you know you can look at the

00:08:26 ◼   ► other side of this is you can look at

00:08:27 ◼   ► the apps that are that come by default

00:08:29 ◼   ► on Macs and iOS devices

00:08:31 ◼   ► how many note-taking apps are there

00:08:33 ◼   ► there's been a Notes app on the iPhone

00:08:35 ◼   ► since day one of the iPhone before there

00:08:37 ◼   ► were apps there was notes and there was

00:08:39 ◼   ► weather and there were stocks and all

00:08:41 ◼   ► these things and now there are

00:08:43 ◼   ► third-party replacements for all those

00:08:45 ◼   ► categories there's tons of them and some

00:08:47 ◼   ► of them do really well so I don't think

00:08:50 ◼   ► sure locking are having the platform

00:08:53 ◼   ► vendor

00:08:53 ◼   ► the same feature that you do either

00:08:55 ◼   ► before or after you get there I don't

00:08:57 ◼   ► think it's fatal to your business but it

00:08:59 ◼   ► is a large effect on your business like

00:09:01 ◼   ► there's no denying that when Apple made

00:09:03 ◼   ► their Notes app better a couple years

00:09:05 ◼   ► ago and they moved it to cloudkit and

00:09:07 ◼   ► they made it sink and add all of the

00:09:08 ◼   ► rich text stuff to it like there's no

00:09:10 ◼   ► denying that hurt a lot of other notes

00:09:13 ◼   ► apps pretty badly it there they can

00:09:16 ◼   ► still exist but it's harder for them to

00:09:18 ◼   ► exist so like this is a a force that

00:09:22 ◼   ► moves throughout markets that you need

00:09:24 ◼   ► to be aware of and it is it is almost

00:09:27 ◼   ► certainly nothing it's almost certainly

00:09:29 ◼   ► never good for you like my whole idea

00:09:31 ◼   ► people will find this and one upgrade to

00:09:32 ◼   ► a better one pretty sure that's bogus

00:09:34 ◼   ► in retrospect like it's never good for

00:09:37 ◼   ► you the only question is how bad is it

00:09:38 ◼   ► for you and it might not be too horrible

00:09:40 ◼   ► but that also might change in the future

00:09:42 ◼   ► so it's definitely something to keep a

00:09:44 ◼   ► very close eye on yeah and I think

00:09:47 ◼   ► there's a very what you're saying there

00:09:48 ◼   ► I think is like the the key I think

00:09:52 ◼   ► reality that I've come to grips with is

00:09:53 ◼   ► debate is that something like being sure

00:09:56 ◼   ► locked is it puts in a tremendous weight

00:10:00 ◼   ► on the like customer demand for your

00:10:04 ◼   ► product like it pushes it down quote you

00:10:06 ◼   ► know substantially it also in some way

00:10:09 ◼   ► probably creates customer interest in

00:10:11 ◼   ► your product or in your product category

00:10:13 ◼   ► but the relative sizes of those two

00:10:16 ◼   ► forces are very disproportionate I think

00:10:19 ◼   ► there's a much stronger push down then

00:10:21 ◼   ► there is a push up and so you'll get a

00:10:24 ◼   ► few people who are like like you were

00:10:26 ◼   ► saying the hopeful kind of like yeah you

00:10:28 ◼   ► know it's just like the built in one but

00:10:30 ◼   ► better I'm looking for the better thing

00:10:32 ◼   ► and it's a great story we tell ourselves

00:10:33 ◼   ► oh but I think it's not just a story

00:10:36 ◼   ► because I think it's it is true and that

00:10:39 ◼   ► does happen but it is like for every one

00:10:42 ◼   ► of those people there's ten people who

00:10:44 ◼   ► now will never even consider looking for

00:10:47 ◼   ► something else and so it's a tremendous

00:10:50 ◼   ► offset down and it's you know I saw my

00:10:53 ◼   ► example was perhaps slightly less

00:10:55 ◼   ► dramatic but like I the most significant

00:11:00 ◼   ► story locking I've ever had was for an

00:11:01 ◼   ► app that I wrote called emoji plus plus

00:11:03 ◼   ► which math coin custom keyboards were

00:11:06 ◼   ► first introduced

00:11:07 ◼   ► the emoji picker at the time was this

00:11:10 ◼   ► kind of awful keyboard thing through was

00:11:14 ◼   ► just a one big massive list of all the

00:11:16 ◼   ► emojis you could ever find anything

00:11:17 ◼   ► organized in this very haphazard way and

00:11:20 ◼   ► so I decided you know what I think I

00:11:22 ◼   ► have a better way of organizing emoji

00:11:24 ◼   ► I'm gonna make it so that you can

00:11:26 ◼   ► they're gonna be organized by category

00:11:27 ◼   ► and you can quickly jump from category

00:11:30 ◼   ► to category by moving a slider on the

00:11:32 ◼   ► edge you know drag dragging if your

00:11:35 ◼   ► finger up and down that and it had a few

00:11:38 ◼   ► other kind of bonus features like you

00:11:39 ◼   ► could add favorites and that type of

00:11:41 ◼   ► features but the most part it was just

00:11:43 ◼   ► this very quick easy to understand

00:11:45 ◼   ► organized version of add emoji keyboard

00:11:47 ◼   ► I released it it went well had a nice

00:11:49 ◼   ► big launched and did fairly well in the

00:11:51 ◼   ► next version of iOS there was how do you

00:11:55 ◼   ► think was not even the next major

00:11:56 ◼   ► version I think it was in a point

00:11:57 ◼   ► release it was qualms he had like there

00:12:00 ◼   ► was very quickly a new emoji keyboard in

00:12:02 ◼   ► iOS that was roughly the same as emoji

00:12:05 ◼   ► plus plus but turned 90 degrees and I

00:12:09 ◼   ► have no way of saying I have no way of

00:12:12 ◼   ► knowing if that was based on emoji plus

00:12:14 ◼   ► plus if that was something that had been

00:12:15 ◼   ► in works for months you know I'd have no

00:12:17 ◼   ► visibility into that but the reality was

00:12:20 ◼   ► now the thing that made my app unique

00:12:23 ◼   ► and special and interesting was

00:12:25 ◼   ► completely gone because that app was

00:12:27 ◼   ► better than mine because and they

00:12:30 ◼   ► believe it's still the case third-party

00:12:32 ◼   ► keyboards are kind of you know like

00:12:34 ◼   ► don't quite work right they take longer

00:12:36 ◼   ► to switch to every now and then you'll

00:12:38 ◼   ► switch to one and it doesn't work like

00:12:39 ◼   ► there's all kinds of issues and things

00:12:41 ◼   ► that whereas the built-in one works

00:12:43 ◼   ► perfectly and so you know emoji plus

00:12:46 ◼   ► plus isn't really a thing anymore

00:12:48 ◼   ► I don't even think I still have it in

00:12:50 ◼   ► the App Store because you know as new

00:12:52 ◼   ► motors have been added you know I would

00:12:54 ◼   ► nor defer to still be relevant I need to

00:12:56 ◼   ► keep adding all these emojis but for the

00:12:57 ◼   ► like one person who's downloading it a

00:13:00 ◼   ► week it just doesn't make sense and so

00:13:02 ◼   ► in that case like it just killed the app

00:13:04 ◼   ► and in some ways I don't feel bad about

00:13:08 ◼   ► that like I would obviously I wish the

00:13:10 ◼   ► that line of business was still going

00:13:11 ◼   ► and thriving it but I will say it one

00:13:14 ◼   ► slightly upside of being you know

00:13:17 ◼   ► Sherlock tore about being copied by

00:13:19 ◼   ► Apple is that it is a you know

00:13:21 ◼   ► nice kind of validation of your work to

00:13:25 ◼   ► you know it's like to be copied by such

00:13:27 ◼   ► a big you know a significant

00:13:29 ◼   ► organization that in general I quite

00:13:31 ◼   ► respect their products like it's kind of

00:13:33 ◼   ► cool that maybe something I made was

00:13:35 ◼   ► then copied and put into iOS but you

00:13:38 ◼   ► know nevertheless like it just

00:13:39 ◼   ► completely killed that product in that

00:13:41 ◼   ► line of business and I think that is

00:13:43 ◼   ► just the reality more more than more

00:13:46 ◼   ► over than not that if you know if Apple

00:13:48 ◼   ► is gonna come in and say you know this

00:13:50 ◼   ► is something that we want to do they

00:13:51 ◼   ► certainly have the resources they have

00:13:52 ◼   ► the ability to do that and a copy and

00:13:55 ◼   ► replace and then more often than not

00:13:58 ◼   ► it's unlike you know is it will lead to

00:14:00 ◼   ► a like an epic shift in terms of you

00:14:04 ◼   ► know there was the period before and

00:14:05 ◼   ► then there's the period after and now

00:14:08 ◼   ► the after period is almost certainly

00:14:10 ◼   ► going to be harder it's gonna be slower

00:14:12 ◼   ► and it's gonna be you know it's a tough

00:14:14 ◼   ► as an uphill battle because now all of a

00:14:18 ◼   ► sudden your customers are an ardent or

00:14:19 ◼   ► in general not going to be going to the

00:14:21 ◼   ► App Store to look for an app to do this

00:14:22 ◼   ► if somehow it just if immediately it

00:14:24 ◼   ► does exactly what they need they'll just

00:14:26 ◼   ► stick there because there is nothing few

00:14:28 ◼   ► things more powerful in software than

00:14:31 ◼   ► defaults I think in it's like the more

00:14:34 ◼   ► you in which is useful like axiom for

00:14:36 ◼   ► software development in general that

00:14:38 ◼   ► like what however you we ship our apps

00:14:40 ◼   ► to our customers whatever the default

00:14:42 ◼   ► settings are or whatever the default

00:14:43 ◼   ► mode is the vast majority of people will

00:14:46 ◼   ► never shift from that and so we need to

00:14:48 ◼   ► as developers I think be thoughtful of

00:14:50 ◼   ► that and make sure our defaults are you

00:14:51 ◼   ► know the will be the best thing for the

00:14:53 ◼   ► most people but on the flip side

00:14:55 ◼   ► whatever Apple shifts ships as default

00:14:58 ◼   ► in their OS is gonna have a tremendously

00:15:00 ◼   ► powering effect and the vast majority of

00:15:02 ◼   ► people are just gonna stay there and

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00:16:54 ◼   ► supporting this show so with all that

00:16:58 ◼   ► doom and gloom

00:16:59 ◼   ► in the back of my mind I recently have

00:17:03 ◼   ► been thinking a lot about what is going

00:17:05 ◼   ► to be happening to my Apple watch sleep

00:17:08 ◼   ► tracker sleepless Plus which at this

00:17:11 ◼   ► point exists in a market that without a

00:17:14 ◼   ► Apple option which seems entirely

00:17:19 ◼   ► unstable going forward because it is

00:17:22 ◼   ► seems inevitable that Apple is going to

00:17:23 ◼   ► get into these sleep tracking business

00:17:25 ◼   ► on the Apple watch and if anything I'm

00:17:27 ◼   ► kind of surprised that sleepless plus

00:17:30 ◼   ► has been able to go as long as it has

00:17:31 ◼   ► without a first party option and it's

00:17:35 ◼   ► something that I've been wrestling with

00:17:36 ◼   ► recently about how this app it will I

00:17:39 ◼   ► think it's fair to say inevitably be

00:17:42 ◼   ► Sherlock that it isn't one of these

00:17:43 ◼   ► things where I will be surprised when

00:17:45 ◼   ► one day a version of watch OS comes out

00:17:49 ◼   ► it includes native sleep tracking like

00:17:51 ◼   ► if if that day doesn't come like

00:17:53 ◼   ► something has gone really wrong at Apple

00:17:55 ◼   ► from development perspective because

00:17:57 ◼   ► this is a clear obvious competitive

00:17:59 ◼   ► disadvantage that they currently have

00:18:00 ◼   ► compared to other fitness trackers you

00:18:02 ◼   ► know things like Fitbit or jawbone which

00:18:04 ◼   ► have sleep tracking built-in and while I

00:18:07 ◼   ► love that I'm filling the gap right now

00:18:09 ◼   ► you know with my app it seems kind of

00:18:11 ◼   ► inevitable that they're going to that

00:18:13 ◼   ► one day come in and do this and that's

00:18:17 ◼   ► tricky because I want to keep making

00:18:19 ◼   ► this app better I want to keep investing

00:18:20 ◼   ► into it in terms of you know with time

00:18:22 ◼   ► and energy but at the same time I don't

00:18:24 ◼   ► want to go too far down the road if one

00:18:26 ◼   ► day the entire purpose of the app is

00:18:28 ◼   ► going to disappear and so recently when

00:18:31 ◼   ► I've been kind of coming to grips with

00:18:33 ◼   ► hasn't been working on updates for sleep

00:18:34 ◼   ► plus plaus is this this thought of it's

00:18:37 ◼   ► probably wise for developers to think

00:18:40 ◼   ► through what sure locking of your app

00:18:42 ◼   ► would look like what it would mean

00:18:44 ◼   ► and then moreover are there any

00:18:47 ◼   ► opportunities that being sure locked

00:18:50 ◼   ► would present to you and sometimes that

00:18:52 ◼   ► there won't be and sometimes it'll just

00:18:53 ◼   ► be sadness and death but sometimes there

00:18:57 ◼   ► might be an opportunity you know so like

00:18:59 ◼   ► in the case of this of my apps the plus

00:19:01 ◼   ► plus I'm thinking about it from a

00:19:02 ◼   ► perspective of are there you know when

00:19:05 ◼   ► Apple inevitably creates their sleep

00:19:06 ◼   ► tracker almost certainly it's going to

00:19:08 ◼   ► be better than mine and I like something

00:19:11 ◼   ► has gone wrong again because what

00:19:14 ◼   ► there's so many serve hacks and things I

00:19:16 ◼   ► have to do on the watch to do what I do

00:19:17 ◼   ► because you know continuously monitoring

00:19:20 ◼   ► someone's activity level throughout that

00:19:22 ◼   ► evening throughout the night you know is

00:19:25 ◼   ► not something that the add the watch is

00:19:26 ◼   ► really geared towards doing I mean has

00:19:28 ◼   ► some good API is for it and you know I

00:19:30 ◼   ► can make it work but I imagine Apple if

00:19:33 ◼   ► they built it into at the OS level could

00:19:35 ◼   ► do a much better job of categorizing

00:19:36 ◼   ► user's activity this would be running

00:19:38 ◼   ► all the time and could automatically cut

00:19:40 ◼   ► and you go to sleep and when you wake up

00:19:42 ◼   ► there's some really cool things that

00:19:44 ◼   ► they can do there but I just can't do

00:19:46 ◼   ► and so for me I'm starting to look

00:19:48 ◼   ► forward to this as a one day this will

00:19:50 ◼   ► come

00:19:50 ◼   ► I want to make advanced of the time I

00:19:53 ◼   ► have now you know in terms of in a weird

00:19:55 ◼   ► way it's like I want to gobble up all

00:19:56 ◼   ► the possible revenue I can but

00:19:58 ◼   ► Apple watch sleep tracking now because

00:20:00 ◼   ► that'll inevitably kind of diminish

00:20:02 ◼   ► dramatically and then - I'm looking

00:20:05 ◼   ► forward to it in the sense of none

00:20:08 ◼   ► essence I'm looking forward to it

00:20:09 ◼   ► happening but I'm trying to develop with

00:20:11 ◼   ► it in mind and so a lot of the features

00:20:13 ◼   ► I'm working on now are if Apple creates

00:20:16 ◼   ► a new a their own version that generates

00:20:19 ◼   ► awesome data and puts that into

00:20:20 ◼   ► healthkit what can I do with that like

00:20:22 ◼   ► can I work on the maybe the

00:20:24 ◼   ► interpretation and the analysis side of

00:20:26 ◼   ► sleep tracking more than the data

00:20:28 ◼   ► collection side and still have value to

00:20:31 ◼   ► customers who may want to say wow my app

00:20:34 ◼   ► my window my watch collects all this

00:20:36 ◼   ► data but how can I interpret it and turn

00:20:39 ◼   ► it more maybe into the way that I do

00:20:40 ◼   ► with things like pedometer plus plus

00:20:42 ◼   ► where it's like the phone collects this

00:20:44 ◼   ► the step data but my app is all about

00:20:46 ◼   ► interpreting it and making it meaningful

00:20:48 ◼   ► and so I think this is an important

00:20:52 ◼   ► thing for news to think of to think of

00:20:53 ◼   ► where you know what what would being

00:20:56 ◼   ► Sherlock two mean to me and just take an

00:20:58 ◼   ► approach of if you view it as inevitable

00:21:01 ◼   ► if you think that this will one day

00:21:02 ◼   ► happen and at least keep it in back of

00:21:04 ◼   ► your mind

00:21:05 ◼   ► I think you can be ready for it and

00:21:06 ◼   ► it'll still be bad it'll still probably

00:21:09 ◼   ► not be a good thing for your business

00:21:10 ◼   ► but at least it may not be utterly

00:21:12 ◼   ► catastrophic yeah and you know I think

00:21:17 ◼   ► one area that you can kind of be safer

00:21:20 ◼   ► in is by trying to figure out what types

00:21:23 ◼   ► of needs and needs you can solve

00:21:26 ◼   ► features you can implement design

00:21:29 ◼   ► choices you can make that Apple wouldn't

00:21:31 ◼   ► do or that your platform vendor wouldn't

00:21:34 ◼   ► do you know and and so I overcast all

00:21:36 ◼   ► these like all these like nitpicky

00:21:37 ◼   ► detail settings and all the advanced

00:21:39 ◼   ► audio processing and all and just to

00:21:41 ◼   ► hold a very uh napple like design of

00:21:44 ◼   ► just like a different style I have a

00:21:45 ◼   ► more human style all my microcopy is

00:21:47 ◼   ► very human and Apple either can't or

00:21:50 ◼   ► won't do any of those things because

00:21:52 ◼   ► like it isn't their style or they would

00:21:54 ◼   ► have to please too many people or they

00:21:56 ◼   ► have to serve too many markets or

00:21:57 ◼   ► whatever else so like the Apple version

00:21:58 ◼   ► of your app will will we know how Apple

00:22:03 ◼   ► does things we know they kind of do like

00:22:04 ◼   ► the middle 80% of every problem and so

00:22:07 ◼   ► if you can better serve the edges you

00:22:09 ◼   ► can you can still have a business even

00:22:11 ◼   ► with them

00:22:12 ◼   ► locking and you know and so like what

00:22:14 ◼   ► I've seen like you know overcast is is

00:22:17 ◼   ► you know my current project obviously

00:22:18 ◼   ► and overcast I I started writing it

00:22:21 ◼   ► after the Apple podcast app on iOS

00:22:24 ◼   ► existed so like I knew I was getting

00:22:27 ◼   ► sure locked from day one of even

00:22:29 ◼   ► beginning to work on the app and I still

00:22:31 ◼   ► decided to do it and part of my strategy

00:22:34 ◼   ► there were just like I will do some

00:22:37 ◼   ► things that they won't and and some

00:22:39 ◼   ► people will want those things and I knew

00:22:41 ◼   ► going in that this was gonna be an

00:22:42 ◼   ► uphill battle I knew that was going to

00:22:44 ◼   ► be by far and away my biggest competitor

00:22:47 ◼   ► and it was and is and probably will be

00:22:49 ◼   ► for the foreseeable future because of

00:22:51 ◼   ► what you said right before the break

00:22:52 ◼   ► like it's already installed on

00:22:54 ◼   ► everyone's phone it's already there like

00:22:55 ◼   ► you have to well there's like a box now

00:22:58 ◼   ► that prompts you but anyway it's

00:22:58 ◼   ► basically already there if you search

00:23:00 ◼   ► for podcast on the App Store a lot of

00:23:03 ◼   ► times Apple will just show their giant

00:23:04 ◼   ► podcast card or they'll show an ad for

00:23:07 ◼   ► the road app yeah like I'm at a huge

00:23:10 ◼   ► disadvantage there but I'm still able to

00:23:13 ◼   ► business because I work on the edges I

00:23:15 ◼   ► work where Apple won't or areas they

00:23:18 ◼   ► don't serve very well also when Apple

00:23:20 ◼   ► does something like that like with the

00:23:23 ◼   ► put you know the podcasts app or their

00:23:25 ◼   ► Notes app or their weather app whatever

00:23:26 ◼   ► else like how many features has the

00:23:28 ◼   ► weather app gotten since its release in

00:23:30 ◼   ► 2007 not not a lot like when when they

00:23:35 ◼   ► when they release an app when they do

00:23:37 ◼   ► their version of something it tends to

00:23:39 ◼   ► be basically a one-shot deal like they

00:23:42 ◼   ► show their hand and then that's about it

00:23:45 ◼   ► for a long time possibly forever so once

00:23:48 ◼   ► you do get sure locked or if you come

00:23:51 ◼   ► pre Sherlock like I did with overcast

00:23:52 ◼   ► yeah then you can kind of already know

00:23:54 ◼   ► like you know the fear before you are

00:23:57 ◼   ► sure locked it's like what's he gonna be

00:23:58 ◼   ► is it gonna totally crush me and a lot

00:24:01 ◼   ► of times their version of something

00:24:03 ◼   ► isn't that great or isn't very deluxe or

00:24:05 ◼   ► isn't you know isn't very good like I

00:24:06 ◼   ► mentioned earlier reading lists reading

00:24:09 ◼   ► list is really basic and it lacks some

00:24:12 ◼   ► pretty big things like its text mode is

00:24:14 ◼   ► terrible you don't have customizable

00:24:15 ◼   ► like fonts too much degree you don't you

00:24:18 ◼   ► it's there's not really even like a good

00:24:19 ◼   ► dark mode like reading a bed is very

00:24:21 ◼   ► bright like it's it just isn't very good

00:24:24 ◼   ► it's it's not it is

00:24:25 ◼   ► a great solution to this problem so like

00:24:28 ◼   ► you know sitting it with podcasts Apple

00:24:30 ◼   ► has been making a podcast app since the

00:24:32 ◼   ► beginning of podcast apps and it's

00:24:34 ◼   ► always been like ok but kind of

00:24:37 ◼   ► confusing kind of burdened by the

00:24:38 ◼   ► baggage of the iTunes Music Store and

00:24:41 ◼   ► their podcast interface and like okay

00:24:43 ◼   ► it's just like it was a known quantity I

00:24:45 ◼   ► knew what I was going up against and

00:24:47 ◼   ► that helped me formulate a plan for how

00:24:49 ◼   ► I was gonna do that effectively like how

00:24:51 ◼   ► will I do things that Apple won't do and

00:24:53 ◼   ► that they've already shown that they

00:24:55 ◼   ► either aren't capable or aren't willing

00:24:56 ◼   ► to do yeah because I think that is the

00:24:59 ◼   ► key point for us to be working it's like

00:25:02 ◼   ► moving forward as developers is the if

00:25:05 ◼   ► we develop our apps with this in mind

00:25:07 ◼   ► and if we whether or not it will

00:25:09 ◼   ► actually end up happening if we could

00:25:10 ◼   ► assume that it's going to be inevitable

00:25:12 ◼   ► but we see we try and predict either

00:25:14 ◼   ► what they would do or we look at what

00:25:16 ◼   ► they have done and see what is an

00:25:18 ◼   ► opportunity besides that and that's just

00:25:21 ◼   ► the reality like that is where we are

00:25:23 ◼   ► going to be able to make the best runs

00:25:25 ◼   ► at you know creating a business or

00:25:27 ◼   ► making an interesting products to

00:25:29 ◼   ► customers is you know we are undone it's

00:25:32 ◼   ► unlikely that we are going to be able to

00:25:33 ◼   ► uh napple over a search out Apple Apple

00:25:36 ◼   ► like we don't have the resources or the

00:25:38 ◼   ► skills or the brand recognition or being

00:25:40 ◼   ► installed by default like that's just

00:25:42 ◼   ► not going to happen but what we can do

00:25:44 ◼   ► is look at it and say this is what

00:25:46 ◼   ► they're going to do or this is what they

00:25:48 ◼   ► have done in the case of like the

00:25:49 ◼   ► podcasts app and you just say like well

00:25:52 ◼   ► what can I do differently and just put

00:25:54 ◼   ► our time and energy and effort into that

00:25:56 ◼   ► being different part that is I think

00:25:59 ◼   ► where we're going to have them the best

00:26:01 ◼   ► traction and the highest probability of

00:26:02 ◼   ► success and at a certain point you get

00:26:05 ◼   ► less scared as a result as you know

00:26:08 ◼   ► because the things that they're you know

00:26:10 ◼   ► if Apple comes in and does something

00:26:12 ◼   ► like you say they're going to do it in a

00:26:14 ◼   ► very particular way and it's important

00:26:15 ◼   ► just as I think in general it's an

00:26:17 ◼   ► important thing for us to be sort of

00:26:19 ◼   ► students and people who kind of

00:26:21 ◼   ► understand and look at the app store in

00:26:23 ◼   ► the way it works and make sure we

00:26:25 ◼   ► understand you know how the top charts

00:26:27 ◼   ► work how keyword searching works like

00:26:28 ◼   ► wouldn't be a student of that it's also

00:26:30 ◼   ► important to be a student of how Apple

00:26:32 ◼   ► makes their software so that we can make

00:26:33 ◼   ► sure we're building ours such that there

00:26:36 ◼   ► the overlap if it exists will won't be

00:26:39 ◼   ► and the degree to which we can exploit

00:26:43 ◼   ► ever we make only slightly overlap we're

00:26:47 ◼   ► almost certainly like we're increasing

00:26:49 ◼   ► the upward force and decreasing the

00:26:51 ◼   ► downward force in our app and you know

00:26:53 ◼   ► fair enough maybe there will always be a

00:26:54 ◼   ► stronger downward force and there will

00:26:56 ◼   ► be an upward force created by Sherlock

00:26:58 ◼   ► Inge but at the very least we can shift

00:27:00 ◼   ► the balance between those two ever so

00:27:02 ◼   ► slightly in our favor just by being a

00:27:04 ◼   ► bit more thoughtful and honestly I know

00:27:08 ◼   ► a lot people don't to hear this it is

00:27:09 ◼   ► really really useful when someone

00:27:11 ◼   ► searching the App Store for something

00:27:13 ◼   ► that they get on their phone for free if

00:27:14 ◼   ► your app is free upfront whether you

00:27:16 ◼   ► have an in-app purchase or however you

00:27:17 ◼   ► make money afterwards being free upfront

00:27:20 ◼   ► is will do you a lot of favors if you

00:27:22 ◼   ► have been sure locked sure yeah because

00:27:24 ◼   ► then you're free against free and it

00:27:26 ◼   ► isn't free against page so exactly like

00:27:29 ◼   ► that was a huge problem I have with

00:27:30 ◼   ► Instapaper that for my entire ownership

00:27:32 ◼   ► of it it was paid up front and on day

00:27:35 ◼   ► one that was fine but you know three or

00:27:38 ◼   ► four years in that became very much not

00:27:40 ◼   ► fine and yeah anything you can do to

00:27:42 ◼   ► reduce the friction if you can

00:27:44 ◼   ► especially you know if you're doing

00:27:45 ◼   ► system stuff if you can import data from

00:27:48 ◼   ► the system in any way and then export it

00:27:50 ◼   ► back outs to anything that makes it

00:27:52 ◼   ► easier for people to try your app this

00:27:54 ◼   ► is good business anyway that for any app

00:27:56 ◼   ► but it's particularly effective and

00:27:58 ◼   ► necessary if you have been Sherlock buy

00:28:01 ◼   ► stuff built into the OS it is incredibly

00:28:03 ◼   ► beneficial to you to make it very easy

00:28:06 ◼   ► and free for people to try your app so

00:28:08 ◼   ► they can see the difference that helps a

00:28:10 ◼   ► lot all right and with that we are out

00:28:13 ◼   ► of time this week so thank you very much

00:28:15 ◼   ► for listening everybody and we'll talk

00:28:16 ◼   ► to you next week bye