Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show but

00:00:01 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:03 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:07 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started one star

00:00:10 ◼   ► useless but a terrible review so today

00:00:15 ◼   ► we're going to talk about the review

00:00:17 ◼   ► system in the App Store

00:00:19 ◼   ► mr. star I think we're gonna start off

00:00:21 ◼   ► by talking about a little bit of way

00:00:23 ◼   ► it's structured and it's maybe some of

00:00:25 ◼   ► its origins and some of the implications

00:00:27 ◼   ► of like the way our customers actually

00:00:29 ◼   ► see that and then towards the end I

00:00:31 ◼   ► think we're going to dive into a little

00:00:32 ◼   ► bit of the way as a developer we should

00:00:34 ◼   ► approach using you know you asking for

00:00:39 ◼   ► reviews and dealing with reviews that

00:00:41 ◼   ► are given to us and so on so the review

00:00:45 ◼   ► system in the App Store is very much you

00:00:47 ◼   ► can kind of tell that it is based on the

00:00:51 ◼   ► review system for something like a movie

00:00:54 ◼   ► or music or something you know the

00:00:56 ◼   ► origins of the App Store's I've

00:00:57 ◼   ► certainly call from iTunes and so you

00:01:00 ◼   ► can kind of see that the trickiness of

00:01:05 ◼   ► that is that it was definitely not

00:01:06 ◼   ► designed for something like software

00:01:07 ◼   ► that changes all the time that already

00:01:10 ◼   ► changes often you know a movie or

00:01:12 ◼   ► something you publish it and it's the

00:01:14 ◼   ► same forever a software changes on a

00:01:16 ◼   ► regular basis and so it was definitely a

00:01:18 ◼   ► early on especially very awkward because

00:01:21 ◼   ► reviews would just stay around forever

00:01:22 ◼   ► and you have reviews bad reviews you

00:01:25 ◼   ► know for you really said busted version

00:01:27 ◼   ► you get a bunch of one-star reviews you

00:01:30 ◼   ► submit the fix those one-star reviews

00:01:32 ◼   ► were still there and so the vendor shape

00:01:33 ◼   ► will went through and changed it so that

00:01:35 ◼   ► now your reviews that are visible

00:01:38 ◼   ► initially to the user are always based

00:01:40 ◼   ► on your most recent version which is

00:01:43 ◼   ► sometimes problematic when you first

00:01:45 ◼   ► release a new version because that means

00:01:46 ◼   ► that if you don't have I think it's five

00:01:48 ◼   ► or so reviews for your application you

00:01:52 ◼   ► don't just doesn't show any of them I

00:01:54 ◼   ► think it's just essentially to prevent

00:01:56 ◼   ► for the situation where if your first

00:01:57 ◼   ► review was a one-star review or your

00:01:59 ◼   ► first review is a five-star review

00:02:00 ◼   ► they're not gonna say that that's their

00:02:02 ◼   ► the rating for your your app just

00:02:04 ◼   ► because you only have one so you need a

00:02:07 ◼   ► certain number of them so it's a little

00:02:08 ◼   ► awkward when you submit a new update and

00:02:10 ◼   ► someone comes to look at your app and it

00:02:12 ◼   ► says hey there's

00:02:13 ◼   ► no you know there's no right ranking for

00:02:15 ◼   ► this app which thank you sir it's an

00:02:17 ◼   ► implication at least if it's like that's

00:02:19 ◼   ► not good well it's not necessarily bad

00:02:21 ◼   ► directly but anyway that's sort of the

00:02:24 ◼   ► way it goes but I think star ratings

00:02:27 ◼   ► especially are very powerful indicator

00:02:30 ◼   ► to our customers about the quality of

00:02:33 ◼   ► our apps because they're one of the few

00:02:35 ◼   ► things that are shown to the user when

00:02:38 ◼   ► they first you know and then they're

00:02:39 ◼   ► first looking at the list of apps so you

00:02:42 ◼   ► know that isn't from me maybe it's the

00:02:44 ◼   ► right way to say it you know so they you

00:02:45 ◼   ► if you search for one of my apps in the

00:02:47 ◼   ► App Store it pops up you'll see the icon

00:02:49 ◼   ► I made the name I gave it the first few

00:02:52 ◼   ► lines of the description it's

00:02:53 ◼   ► screenshots and then the stars and the

00:02:56 ◼   ► stars are the only part of that that are

00:02:57 ◼   ► all right isn't marketing isn't just me

00:02:59 ◼   ► making stuff up because obviously

00:03:00 ◼   ► everyone's gonna say my app is great my

00:03:02 ◼   ► app is awesome the stars have this vague

00:03:05 ◼   ► sense of objectivity to them and so I

00:03:08 ◼   ► think they have probably a fairly

00:03:11 ◼   ► significant impact on what customers

00:03:13 ◼   ► think about an app and with how you know

00:03:16 ◼   ► how likely they are to download it and I

00:03:17 ◼   ► think I've seen that definitely in terms

00:03:19 ◼   ► of my own downloads where I know that if

00:03:22 ◼   ► my star rating starts to go down or I do

00:03:24 ◼   ► a new update and the star rating

00:03:27 ◼   ► disappears for a couple of days that it

00:03:29 ◼   ► can have a noticeable immuno reduction

00:03:32 ◼   ► in downloads that if it's not like they

00:03:35 ◼   ► go to zero but it's you know there's 20

00:03:36 ◼   ► 30 percent of my downloads will start

00:03:38 ◼   ► will go away for a period until I'm able

00:03:41 ◼   ► to build that up and so I think it's

00:03:44 ◼   ► something that we have to deal with as

00:03:45 ◼   ► developers to make sure that we're like

00:03:48 ◼   ► aware of that the importance of this and

00:03:50 ◼   ► then also it's like really awkward

00:03:51 ◼   ► because you get into all the tricky

00:03:54 ◼   ► things that you can get into where

00:03:55 ◼   ► people start you know paying people to

00:03:57 ◼   ► review their apps paying people to give

00:03:58 ◼   ► it five star reviews which you know it

00:04:01 ◼   ► eventually if Apple you know catches you

00:04:03 ◼   ► doing that they'll pull you out of the

00:04:04 ◼   ► App Store for that kind of thing but

00:04:06 ◼   ► it's this really strange tension of

00:04:07 ◼   ► where is the appropriateness there you

00:04:10 ◼   ► know how how is asking for a review fine

00:04:13 ◼   ► is asking for a review in a in the app

00:04:16 ◼   ► okay is it fine out somewhere outside of

00:04:18 ◼   ► the app etc but it's all a big mess but

00:04:20 ◼   ► ultimately and probably the best place

00:04:21 ◼   ► to start is just the importance of that

00:04:25 ◼   ► star rating and

00:04:26 ◼   ► trying to keep it up yeah I mean it

00:04:30 ◼   ► looks like a lot of the AppStore it's

00:04:32 ◼   ► the kind of thing where like the system

00:04:33 ◼   ► is not perfect we as developers have to

00:04:36 ◼   ► basically grin and bear it we have to

00:04:38 ◼   ► work around its flaws or tolerate its

00:04:39 ◼   ► flaws or you know somehow just

00:04:41 ◼   ► accommodate them but also like it's hard

00:04:45 ◼   ► to imagine a lot of better systems like

00:04:48 ◼   ► I have tons of ideas and how they could

00:04:49 ◼   ► improve user reviews on the App Store

00:04:52 ◼   ► but it's not going to be like a massive

00:04:55 ◼   ► improvement like it's if they're gonna

00:04:57 ◼   ► have user reviews at all they're doing

00:04:59 ◼   ► an okay job of it again not not a

00:05:02 ◼   ► wonderful job but an okay job of it you

00:05:03 ◼   ► know and and again like changing it

00:05:05 ◼   ► would be incremental not revolutionary

00:05:07 ◼   ► and and I do think it is it serves a

00:05:12 ◼   ► useful purpose to have user reviews like

00:05:14 ◼   ► you know I've often thought there's a

00:05:16 ◼   ► lot of contexts in which there are no

00:05:18 ◼   ► user reviews you know on your own sales

00:05:22 ◼   ► page like that's how the web works like

00:05:24 ◼   ► you know if you go to buy software and

00:05:26 ◼   ► you go to the company's website they're

00:05:28 ◼   ► not gonna have a set well they usually

00:05:29 ◼   ► aren't going to have a section of random

00:05:32 ◼   ► user submitted unfiltered reviews you

00:05:35 ◼   ► know they're gonna handpick you know

00:05:36 ◼   ► they're gonna cherry-pick what good

00:05:38 ◼   ► things have been said about them and

00:05:39 ◼   ► that's gonna be all you see and it's

00:05:41 ◼   ► weird to have like on the page that

00:05:44 ◼   ► everybody will go to even if somebody

00:05:46 ◼   ► goes to your site for an iOS app fully

00:05:48 ◼   ► intends to get it you send them through

00:05:51 ◼   ► to click through to the App Store page

00:05:52 ◼   ► for them to actually download it and

00:05:53 ◼   ► they're seeing that those star reviews

00:05:55 ◼   ► so you can't escape your customers will

00:05:57 ◼   ► always see those star reviews so they

00:05:59 ◼   ► are probably important from that point

00:06:03 ◼   ► of view however I really don't know how

00:06:08 ◼   ► important the nitty gritty details are

00:06:11 ◼   ► for customers so for instance I think

00:06:14 ◼   ► the average star rating that people see

00:06:16 ◼   ► is probably fairly important you know

00:06:18 ◼   ► you said you've seen a dip in downloads

00:06:20 ◼   ► when that when it's been too early for a

00:06:22 ◼   ► version to show a rating can you tell

00:06:24 ◼   ► have you did have you like isolated

00:06:26 ◼   ► enough variables to really have any idea

00:06:28 ◼   ► whether it matters whether it's like two

00:06:30 ◼   ► star 4 star average um not not quite to

00:06:35 ◼   ► that level I don't like I think there's

00:06:37 ◼   ► I've seen

00:06:39 ◼   ► measurable impacts when you have a bad

00:06:41 ◼   ► version that is a really bad rating

00:06:44 ◼   ► where the you know the number it's like

00:06:47 ◼   ► I don't know if there's a difference

00:06:49 ◼   ► between being four four and a half or

00:06:52 ◼   ► five you're like if you're on the high

00:06:54 ◼   ► end like the difference between those I

00:06:56 ◼   ► haven't been at quite been able to

00:06:57 ◼   ► narrow it down but I think there's

00:06:58 ◼   ► definitely an impact like if you have a

00:06:59 ◼   ► really bet really low rating is really

00:07:02 ◼   ► bad and probably even in some ways worse

00:07:04 ◼   ► than having no rating at all because

00:07:07 ◼   ► like the people it's like the active and

00:07:09 ◼   ► the active statement of like this app is

00:07:11 ◼   ► bad rather than like I don't know what

00:07:13 ◼   ► is this app that's true but but there is

00:07:16 ◼   ► definitely something funny there too I

00:07:18 ◼   ► think it's also interesting that in the

00:07:20 ◼   ► app store they show the number of

00:07:21 ◼   ► reviews that have been left like in the

00:07:25 ◼   ► little parentheses after the star rating

00:07:26 ◼   ► and I feel like that number is also

00:07:28 ◼   ► probably somewhat indicative as well

00:07:30 ◼   ► because think if the efficient you know

00:07:32 ◼   ► it's like five stars four views or

00:07:34 ◼   ► whatever you know a very small number

00:07:36 ◼   ► I probably carries a lot less weight

00:07:38 ◼   ► than if you have you know 1,600 reviews

00:07:42 ◼   ► and the average rating is five stars

00:07:43 ◼   ► like that also care has more weight to

00:07:45 ◼   ► it probably that but yeah it's a really

00:07:48 ◼   ► awkward thing to try and like actually

00:07:50 ◼   ► isolate and work out the impact because

00:07:53 ◼   ► it's such a fluid thing and it's not you

00:07:55 ◼   ► know as a devout as a developer we don't

00:07:57 ◼   ► have any direct control over and so it's

00:07:59 ◼   ► like you can like run an experiment of

00:08:00 ◼   ► like let me try running the App Store if

00:08:02 ◼   ► I have a five star review let me see if

00:08:04 ◼   ► I have a four star review so Joe is just

00:08:06 ◼   ► kind of more anecdotal and kind of just

00:08:08 ◼   ► gut feeling about how it how it works

00:08:11 ◼   ► yeah I mean you know as somebody like I

00:08:14 ◼   ► buy things and Amazon all the time I

00:08:16 ◼   ► occasionally will look for new apps on

00:08:18 ◼   ► either iOS or even the Mac App Store and

00:08:20 ◼   ► as a buyer like that what I'm looking at

00:08:22 ◼   ► reviews I hardly ever read any actual

00:08:26 ◼   ► post posted review text right but I

00:08:28 ◼   ► almost always will look at the average

00:08:31 ◼   ► star rating and the and the approximate

00:08:33 ◼   ► number of ratings and that's the one

00:08:34 ◼   ► thing like when I'm buying something on

00:08:36 ◼   ► Amazon you know if I'm buying like

00:08:37 ◼   ► something where there's a lot of fairly

00:08:40 ◼   ► commoditized similar competition like a

00:08:42 ◼   ► cable you know something like that like

00:08:44 ◼   ► if there's one that has 900 reviews and

00:08:48 ◼   ► a four and a half star average and

00:08:50 ◼   ► there's one that has five reviews on

00:08:52 ◼   ► five star Everidge you know that that

00:08:54 ◼   ► stands out to me and I will pick the

00:08:56 ◼   ► more popular one those figure I will

00:08:57 ◼   ► figure there's probably some reason why

00:08:59 ◼   ► they have so many more that that's

00:09:00 ◼   ► probably a good sign it's just a larger

00:09:02 ◼   ► sample set so to achieve a decent

00:09:04 ◼   ► average with that big of a sample set is

00:09:06 ◼   ► a pretty good sign compared to something

00:09:08 ◼   ► with five reviews right and I have to

00:09:10 ◼   ► imagine that most people will do the

00:09:12 ◼   ► same thing with App Store reviews

00:09:14 ◼   ► because it's it you know whatever we

00:09:16 ◼   ► think of our apps and and our position

00:09:18 ◼   ► of the market the way the way I think

00:09:21 ◼   ► the market has has shown us over and

00:09:23 ◼   ► over again that it actually works is

00:09:24 ◼   ► very much like people buying basic

00:09:26 ◼   ► cable's on ahem azan where it's like

00:09:28 ◼   ► they're looking at a list of a thousand

00:09:30 ◼   ► apps about looked the same and they're

00:09:32 ◼   ► gonna just pick the one that has like

00:09:34 ◼   ► you know that shows up near the top

00:09:36 ◼   ► probably the one that's free if there is

00:09:38 ◼   ► one that's free which is they're almost

00:09:39 ◼   ► always is and they're gonna pick the one

00:09:41 ◼   ► that has a decent looking you know name

00:09:44 ◼   ► and icon and screenshot maybe and

00:09:46 ◼   ► they're gonna and with decent ratings so

00:09:48 ◼   ► in the aggregate I do think these are

00:09:52 ◼   ► very important to to kind of just keep

00:09:54 ◼   ► your average up and to try to get a good

00:09:57 ◼   ► number of reviews that being said I

00:09:59 ◼   ► think the specifics of like if you have

00:10:03 ◼   ► an app that has mostly good reviews and

00:10:04 ◼   ► there's one angry person who leaves a 1

00:10:06 ◼   ► star and trashes you in their review

00:10:08 ◼   ► even if even with stuff that isn't even

00:10:09 ◼   ► true I mean look I my attitude both in

00:10:13 ◼   ► you know personally and in my software

00:10:16 ◼   ► development style my attitude inspires

00:10:19 ◼   ► extreme feelings in some people and I

00:10:23 ◼   ► get a lot of of those extremes and and

00:10:26 ◼   ► some of that is great if most of it is

00:10:28 ◼   ► great you know most of my reviews tend

00:10:30 ◼   ► to be pretty positive but there's always

00:10:32 ◼   ► with anything I do I could write a blog

00:10:34 ◼   ► post saying the sky is blue and there

00:10:36 ◼   ► will be one person raging against it on

00:10:38 ◼   ► Twitter you know it's like anything I do

00:10:40 ◼   ► because of my attitude and style there

00:10:43 ◼   ► it okay it will anger a certain number

00:10:46 ◼   ► of people right and so everything I do

00:10:48 ◼   ► always has a small percentage of really

00:10:52 ◼   ► negative response or reviews on it so

00:10:55 ◼   ► you know even the best versions of

00:10:56 ◼   ► overcast the best version of Instapaper

00:10:58 ◼   ► like even like the most uncontroversial

00:11:00 ◼   ► updates there's always a one-star review

00:11:02 ◼   ► or two or three or four you know they're

00:11:04 ◼   ► always there

00:11:05 ◼   ► some of them get really rude and some of

00:11:07 ◼   ► them are really personal but whatever it

00:11:08 ◼   ► doesn't really so

00:11:10 ◼   ► basically I've stopped reading them like

00:11:13 ◼   ► because it's just I found it mostly

00:11:15 ◼   ► unhelpful to read the reviews I find it

00:11:19 ◼   ► much more helpful to pay attention to

00:11:22 ◼   ► what people are saying via email and

00:11:24 ◼   ► Twitter and even though I don't usually

00:11:26 ◼   ► even respond to those and sometimes

00:11:28 ◼   ► that's gets overwhelming I can't even

00:11:29 ◼   ► read them all honestly but but usually I

00:11:32 ◼   ► am able to keep up with reading them and

00:11:34 ◼   ► you know the more engaged somebody is

00:11:38 ◼   ► with trying to contact you and trying to

00:11:40 ◼   ► use your app I think the more useful

00:11:44 ◼   ► their feedback tends to be and so App

00:11:46 ◼   ► Store reviews are kind of the bottom of

00:11:48 ◼   ► the barrel like somebody can look at

00:11:51 ◼   ► your app for three seconds and leave a

00:11:52 ◼   ► review and they don't even like they

00:11:54 ◼   ► didn't get to your contact link they

00:11:56 ◼   ► didn't they didn't find your Twitter

00:11:57 ◼   ► username like it's like there there's a

00:11:58 ◼   ► lower barrier to entry there and to some

00:12:01 ◼   ► degree that means you're gonna get more

00:12:02 ◼   ► feedback that way which is often a good

00:12:04 ◼   ► thing but it also means that the level

00:12:07 ◼   ► of engagement these users and level of

00:12:08 ◼   ► effort these users is pretty pretty low

00:12:10 ◼   ► on average and so you're gonna get more

00:12:13 ◼   ► of the crap that you should mentally

00:12:16 ◼   ► filter out coming in through that

00:12:18 ◼   ► channel than through other channels and

00:12:19 ◼   ► so the way I look at like individual

00:12:23 ◼   ► reviews the ones that are like onestart

00:12:25 ◼   ► angry and everything is you know if I

00:12:27 ◼   ► see one

00:12:28 ◼   ► which again I've been seeing fewer and

00:12:30 ◼   ► fewer because I stopped reading the

00:12:31 ◼   ► reviews for the most part but if I if I

00:12:33 ◼   ► see one making a reasonable point I will

00:12:37 ◼   ► take mental note you know like okay this

00:12:39 ◼   ► person really really hates you know my

00:12:41 ◼   ► decision to remove this feature six

00:12:43 ◼   ► months ago whatever okay you know that

00:12:46 ◼   ► that's that's like kind of like an

00:12:47 ◼   ► upvote in my head of like maybe I should

00:12:49 ◼   ► reconsider that or or whatever else or

00:12:52 ◼   ► maybe people want a way to address this

00:12:53 ◼   ► problem that I removed forever ago but

00:12:56 ◼   ► for the most part I don't think you have

00:12:59 ◼   ► to worry that much about any individual

00:13:02 ◼   ► review both score wise or its content

00:13:05 ◼   ► because what matters way more to the

00:13:07 ◼   ► people who are actually browsing for

00:13:09 ◼   ► your app is the the number of reviews in

00:13:12 ◼   ► the average star rating and I would be

00:13:13 ◼   ► very surprised if a lot of people

00:13:15 ◼   ► actually went through and read a

00:13:17 ◼   ► meaningful number of review

00:13:19 ◼   ► now this obviously is a bigger problem

00:13:22 ◼   ► if you don't have very many reviews and

00:13:24 ◼   ► so we'll get into this but like you know

00:13:27 ◼   ► all the the the problem of like the

00:13:29 ◼   ► occasional one-star angry people is

00:13:31 ◼   ► magnified the fewer reviews you have

00:13:33 ◼   ► because the you know the few reviews to

00:13:35 ◼   ► kind of bury it or average it out or

00:13:36 ◼   ► whatever else and so I've been lucky

00:13:39 ◼   ► that overcast has almost always had a

00:13:41 ◼   ► very large number of reviews and I think

00:13:44 ◼   ► we'll talk after the after sponsor break

00:13:45 ◼   ► about kind of how and why and and when

00:13:48 ◼   ► and when not to ask for reviews because

00:13:51 ◼   ► I think I think that does have an impact

00:13:53 ◼   ► but first let's talk about our sponsor

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00:14:11 ◼   ► recruiters make job hunting the worst

00:14:12 ◼   ► they try to sell you one roles that you

00:14:14 ◼   ► don't actually want and all this crap

00:14:16 ◼   ► and then job boards make you feel like

00:14:18 ◼   ► you're throwing your resume into a black

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00:15:07 ◼   ► show yeah because I think what the thing

00:15:10 ◼   ► that's so tricky with all of these

00:15:11 ◼   ► things with reviews is this planning

00:15:13 ◼   ► this balance between like it's um it's

00:15:18 ◼   ► it's a really it's an odd part of the

00:15:19 ◼   ► development process because we don't

00:15:22 ◼   ► have any direct control over it but it

00:15:25 ◼   ► has a direct impact on us and there are

00:15:27 ◼   ► very few things I think in the

00:15:28 ◼   ► development process like one of the

00:15:29 ◼   ► things that I love about being a

00:15:30 ◼   ► developer is that like I'm telling my

00:15:32 ◼   ► app what

00:15:33 ◼   ► like it's a little bit control freaky

00:15:35 ◼   ► like I enjoy that I can control all the

00:15:38 ◼   ► behaviors all the aesthetics everything

00:15:41 ◼   ► and everything in my app I can control

00:15:42 ◼   ► because it exists you know as a result

00:15:45 ◼   ► of like sitting on Xcode and making it

00:15:47 ◼   ► but the reviews are completely out of my

00:15:49 ◼   ► control like I have no direct way of

00:15:51 ◼   ► doing that and instead and I think like

00:15:53 ◼   ► we're just saying it's it's like any

00:15:55 ◼   ► individual reviews probably not all that

00:15:57 ◼   ► important but it's more important though

00:15:59 ◼   ► is that we are able to encourage our

00:16:02 ◼   ► customers to go there and a high enough

00:16:06 ◼   ► volume of customers to go there such

00:16:09 ◼   ► that you have a representative sample

00:16:10 ◼   ► and obviously I prefer to be

00:16:12 ◼   ► representative of customers who love my

00:16:15 ◼   ► app and want to give it five stars and

00:16:16 ◼   ► talk about it lovely but at the very

00:16:19 ◼   ► least I want that number to be

00:16:20 ◼   ► significant so that it isn't just

00:16:22 ◼   ► drowned out by the one person who's

00:16:24 ◼   ► angry or even just given that bad

00:16:27 ◼   ► impression of like why does this app

00:16:29 ◼   ► only have seven reviews like you kind of

00:16:31 ◼   ► least in my mind I start to like I don't

00:16:33 ◼   ► know what but exactly what the

00:16:34 ◼   ► multiplier is but I'm like if the app

00:16:36 ◼   ► you know it's like there's a certain

00:16:37 ◼   ► like the audience and the customer base

00:16:40 ◼   ► of this app is probably some multiplier

00:16:41 ◼   ► of that and so if it's only like seven

00:16:44 ◼   ► maybe the app is kind of is only used by

00:16:46 ◼   ► a few handful of people and isn't that

00:16:48 ◼   ► good and so there's a strange tension

00:16:50 ◼   ► though and there was this that's

00:16:53 ◼   ► probably three or four year years now

00:16:55 ◼   ► but there was a big hoo-ha a couple

00:16:57 ◼   ► years ago where around the like little

00:17:01 ◼   ► pop-up dialogue said a lot of apps use

00:17:03 ◼   ► where it you know you're using the app

00:17:06 ◼   ► using the app then all of a sudden it

00:17:08 ◼   ► pops up and says hey we're gonna review

00:17:10 ◼   ► my app and there was an app there was a

00:17:12 ◼   ► library called he was operator that was

00:17:15 ◼   ► used in just over hundreds and hundreds

00:17:17 ◼   ► of apps and got you know had this very

00:17:21 ◼   ► aggressive version of that and I think

00:17:23 ◼   ► it's that's it's something that I try

00:17:25 ◼   ► and always avoid in my apps like I've

00:17:26 ◼   ► never really felt great about doing this

00:17:29 ◼   ► because the reality is like the reviews

00:17:32 ◼   ► are primarily beneficial to me and

00:17:36 ◼   ► they're beneficial to future potential

00:17:38 ◼   ► customers the actual current customer

00:17:41 ◼   ► who's using it the review doesn't really

00:17:43 ◼   ► benefit them in any way directly other

00:17:45 ◼   ► than like

00:17:46 ◼   ► the vague sense that it makes my it

00:17:48 ◼   ► helps me which helps them because it

00:17:51 ◼   ► helps me to be wanting to make the app

00:17:53 ◼   ► better for them but it's mostly just

00:17:55 ◼   ► they're doing me a favor and so I need

00:17:59 ◼   ► to look at it from that perspective and

00:18:00 ◼   ► I think you know automats I've avoided

00:18:02 ◼   ► putting in things to kind of ask for

00:18:05 ◼   ► them for that because it is asking them

00:18:08 ◼   ► a favor and it's like you don't want to

00:18:10 ◼   ► you want to be really thoughtful if

00:18:11 ◼   ► anytime you ask your audience for

00:18:13 ◼   ► something but then I also look in the

00:18:16 ◼   ► App Store and next reason this is top of

00:18:18 ◼   ► mind for me is I just went through and

00:18:19 ◼   ► added a little section in the settings

00:18:22 ◼   ► area of pedometer plus plus where it

00:18:24 ◼   ► says you know would you like please

00:18:26 ◼   ► leave a review leave me a review really

00:18:28 ◼   ► helps thank you essentially I can have a

00:18:30 ◼   ► little button to go to the App Store to

00:18:32 ◼   ► leave a review and I hadn't had one in

00:18:35 ◼   ► there for a long time yep usually was

00:18:37 ◼   ► reviewed fairly well but I was starting

00:18:38 ◼   ► to look at look at it from the

00:18:40 ◼   ► perspective of a new customer and I went

00:18:42 ◼   ► into the App Store and I started you

00:18:43 ◼   ► know searching for the terms that you

00:18:44 ◼   ► would search for if you were going to

00:18:46 ◼   ► try and find that app and what I was

00:18:49 ◼   ► noticing is that I had various massively

00:18:52 ◼   ► disproportionately lower number of

00:18:53 ◼   ► reviews then my cus customers and based

00:18:56 ◼   ► on like where we rank together our

00:18:57 ◼   ► downloads are fairly similar which makes

00:19:00 ◼   ► me think that a lot of it is coming just

00:19:01 ◼   ► from the fact that I'm pretty sure a lot

00:19:03 ◼   ► of those competitive competing apps have

00:19:06 ◼   ► the like in-your-face pop-up hey go

00:19:08 ◼   ► download the app and enough people go do

00:19:10 ◼   ► that that their numbers look good but

00:19:13 ◼   ► from a fresh customers perspective that

00:19:14 ◼   ► means that my app looks like nobody uses

00:19:16 ◼   ► it or being a very few or

00:19:18 ◼   ► disproportionately fewer that you know

00:19:20 ◼   ► our start of the actual average star

00:19:22 ◼   ► rating is very similar but I have a

00:19:25 ◼   ► tenth of the number of users or reviews

00:19:27 ◼   ► left and so it's like now I've added

00:19:28 ◼   ► this I don't feel great about it but I

00:19:32 ◼   ► think putting it in AB you know it's in

00:19:33 ◼   ► the bottom of the settings area it's the

00:19:35 ◼   ► kind of thing that you'd probably only

00:19:36 ◼   ► find if you are you know you've used the

00:19:41 ◼   ► app a little bit and it's also you know

00:19:44 ◼   ► it's never in it's never end going to be

00:19:46 ◼   ► in the course of the core functionality

00:19:48 ◼   ► of the app so in this case like showing

00:19:49 ◼   ► you your steps it's not like you open it

00:19:51 ◼   ► up to see your steps and you know your

00:19:53 ◼   ► steps are hidden away behind something

00:19:54 ◼   ► asking you to go and do it but I think

00:19:56 ◼   ► the reality is not having one of those

00:19:58 ◼   ► was

00:19:59 ◼   ► kind of disadvantaged disadvantaged we

00:20:03 ◼   ► was putting my putting myself at a

00:20:04 ◼   ► disadvantage that it probably didn't

00:20:06 ◼   ► need to be yeah I mean I I kind of came

00:20:09 ◼   ► around to that as well and I came up

00:20:11 ◼   ► with a a similar solution for overcast

00:20:14 ◼   ► and an overcast 1.0 was released in was

00:20:17 ◼   ► 2014 it was it was kind of right in the

00:20:20 ◼   ► middle of a lot of this debate about

00:20:22 ◼   ► about uh the the irate dialog box and

00:20:24 ◼   ► and I mean these and these these rape my

00:20:27 ◼   ► app boxes are now so ubiquitous like you

00:20:29 ◼   ► know big apps like Instagram does it it

00:20:31 ◼   ► bothered me all the time my bank chase

00:20:33 ◼   ► the Chase Bank app does it I'm like

00:20:35 ◼   ► really like I'm trying to posit a check

00:20:37 ◼   ► and like this is like business stuff and

00:20:39 ◼   ► you're interrupting my business stuff

00:20:40 ◼   ► with my business bank for your stupid

00:20:43 ◼   ► rape my app dialog for a bank app like

00:20:44 ◼   ► that but yes it they're so ubiquitous

00:20:46 ◼   ► and I I think you know what you said is

00:20:50 ◼   ► is perfect about like you know you're

00:20:53 ◼   ► asking the app is interrupting good

00:20:55 ◼   ► usage of your app to do themselves an

00:20:58 ◼   ► advertising favor and that's that's it

00:21:00 ◼   ► kind of rubs me the wrong way as a

00:21:01 ◼   ► customer and user of these apps and so

00:21:04 ◼   ► in my apps I've always kind of been you

00:21:07 ◼   ► know not only refusing to do that kind

00:21:10 ◼   ► of interruption but for a while I would

00:21:13 ◼   ► like with Instapaper and the magazine I

00:21:14 ◼   ► never had a link even in settings or

00:21:17 ◼   ► anything to rate cuz I just thought like

00:21:19 ◼   ► kind of like the the pure angle kind of

00:21:21 ◼   ► like back before I would do colon

00:21:23 ◼   ► keywords after a title of an app you

00:21:25 ◼   ► know I used to think well this is I want

00:21:27 ◼   ► to do things like the pure proper way

00:21:28 ◼   ► and this is just how things should work

00:21:29 ◼   ► and sometimes how things should work

00:21:32 ◼   ► isn't how things do work and and so you

00:21:35 ◼   ► have to find some kind of compromise and

00:21:37 ◼   ► so you know with all these little you

00:21:39 ◼   ► know app store realities or shortcomings

00:21:40 ◼   ► you know like like the keyword title

00:21:42 ◼   ► thing I found a compromise of with

00:21:43 ◼   ► overcast I actually couldn't name it

00:21:45 ◼   ► overcast there was there was another app

00:21:47 ◼   ► in the store with an exact name was a

00:21:49 ◼   ► cloud file really dirty app so it wasn't

00:21:51 ◼   ► even like the same kind of thing but I

00:21:53 ◼   ► had to call it overcast something so I

00:21:55 ◼   ► called her an overcast : podcast player

00:21:57 ◼   ► like the the most basic honest short key

00:22:00 ◼   ► word thing I could prove I could really

00:22:01 ◼   ► come up with and and so with the with

00:22:04 ◼   ► the user ratings thing I had a a similar

00:22:08 ◼   ► kind of compromise with overcast 1.0

00:22:12 ◼   ► it was it was clear this kind of thing

00:22:14 ◼   ► was important so I wanted I wanted to

00:22:15 ◼   ► address it somehow and so I just put in

00:22:18 ◼   ► the settings area and in the settings

00:22:20 ◼   ► screen it's still there now it's been

00:22:22 ◼   ► unchanged since version 1.0 I have on

00:22:26 ◼   ► the server side a when when overcast

00:22:29 ◼   ► syncs it the the part of the sync

00:22:32 ◼   ► response is the cached ratings count

00:22:36 ◼   ► from iTunes because you can get it

00:22:38 ◼   ► through the iTunes API this is the

00:22:40 ◼   ► iTunes Search API so you can get your

00:22:42 ◼   ► own ratings count from your server or

00:22:43 ◼   ► directly from your app that way so the

00:22:46 ◼   ► app keeps a record of the ratings count

00:22:48 ◼   ► for the current version and so in the

00:22:51 ◼   ► settings screen again it's been in there

00:22:52 ◼   ► since 1.0 I have a simple item right

00:22:55 ◼   ► next to the feedback item that says

00:22:56 ◼   ► please rate overcast and below it it

00:22:59 ◼   ► says 2014 people have rated this version

00:23:02 ◼   ► and if that number is less than I think

00:23:05 ◼   ► 50 it says only X people have rated this

00:23:08 ◼   ► version and right below that it says

00:23:11 ◼   ► overcast will never interrupt you for

00:23:13 ◼   ► ratings and I think enough piece has

00:23:17 ◼   ► worked remarkably so my thinking here is

00:23:20 ◼   ► it's a simple polite relatively compact

00:23:23 ◼   ► thing that encourages people who like

00:23:27 ◼   ► the app to go support it in this way

00:23:29 ◼   ► but it's not pushy about it and

00:23:31 ◼   ► clarifies right there that they will

00:23:33 ◼   ► never be interrupted so this is telling

00:23:35 ◼   ► them that you know I thought about this

00:23:37 ◼   ► very carefully like this is telling them

00:23:39 ◼   ► that I respect them it's tell them right

00:23:42 ◼   ► there I will never interrupt them for

00:23:43 ◼   ► ratings so it's telling them I respect

00:23:45 ◼   ► them I won't do this thing that everyone

00:23:46 ◼   ► does that you hate and also please

00:23:50 ◼   ► please rate it and if the number seems

00:23:52 ◼   ► low especially when it's low enough to

00:23:54 ◼   ► be prefixed with only that's kind of an

00:23:55 ◼   ► additional push like here's how much I

00:23:57 ◼   ► can actually use your support right now

00:23:59 ◼   ► and I've never had to call attention to

00:24:02 ◼   ► it in like in on Twitter or anything

00:24:04 ◼   ► else like or I've never called attention

00:24:06 ◼   ► to it in the app like it's just there in

00:24:07 ◼   ► settings and it has always gotten enough

00:24:09 ◼   ► reviews with remarkable speed that and

00:24:13 ◼   ► part of that so you know I've been

00:24:14 ◼   ► fortunate with overcast the user base is

00:24:15 ◼   ► pretty sizeable now but even back like

00:24:17 ◼   ► in the early days it was always that way

00:24:19 ◼   ► that kind of approach like when you just

00:24:21 ◼   ► respect people and and you you let

00:24:23 ◼   ► people who like the app

00:24:25 ◼   ► supported in this way in a reasonable

00:24:27 ◼   ► way and without getting in their face

00:24:29 ◼   ► and annoying in them that's great now

00:24:31 ◼   ► that being said that's not gonna apply

00:24:33 ◼   ► to every app and that's unfortunate you

00:24:34 ◼   ► know it's one of the defenses back in

00:24:37 ◼   ► the day when when these boxes were being

00:24:39 ◼   ► debated was well they work and we need

00:24:41 ◼   ► them and so I I think what you have to

00:24:46 ◼   ► just keep in mind is that that's not the

00:24:48 ◼   ► only approach that can work and while

00:24:51 ◼   ► you do probably need some kind of easy

00:24:53 ◼   ► way for people to rate your app doing it

00:24:55 ◼   ► in a more respectful way like what we

00:24:58 ◼   ► are doing and in our apps not you know

00:24:59 ◼   ► not to toot our own horn too much but

00:25:00 ◼   ► like doing this in a way that doesn't

00:25:02 ◼   ► interrupt your user and annoy them is I

00:25:05 ◼   ► think a far superior way to do it

00:25:08 ◼   ► because it works well enough so like you

00:25:10 ◼   ► don't need to be more pushy about it

00:25:12 ◼   ► obviously these kind of ways do work

00:25:14 ◼   ► well enough and it doesn't compromise

00:25:15 ◼   ► the user experience and it doesn't annoy

00:25:17 ◼   ► your your legitimate good customers so

00:25:19 ◼   ► to me it's a win-win yeah and I think

00:25:22 ◼   ► too there's like these kind of things I

00:25:25 ◼   ► always do do also take the other I

00:25:27 ◼   ► always try and take the other

00:25:28 ◼   ► perspective to Oh finally I find the a

00:25:31 ◼   ► rating style log very offensive or at

00:25:33 ◼   ► least very annoying but I sometimes do

00:25:37 ◼   ► wonder if my how many of my customers

00:25:39 ◼   ► actually have that same a that same

00:25:41 ◼   ► experience in the same perspective and

00:25:43 ◼   ► it reminds me in many ways have the same

00:25:44 ◼   ► way that like I don't like using a apps

00:25:47 ◼   ► that have banner ads in them but I make

00:25:51 ◼   ► apps that have Henner head's in them

00:25:52 ◼   ► that I people use on a regular basis and

00:25:55 ◼   ► doesn't seem to be a problem for people

00:25:56 ◼   ► like fievel's thresholds for what they

00:25:58 ◼   ► can support if they're annoyed by or

00:26:00 ◼   ► what they consider you know undesirable

00:26:04 ◼   ► they're certainly different I think then

00:26:06 ◼   ► what I have and which is fine but it's

00:26:10 ◼   ► also something that I was trying to keep

00:26:11 ◼   ► in the back of my mind as I'm working on

00:26:12 ◼   ► through these kinds of things is that

00:26:14 ◼   ► well I may think that these things are

00:26:17 ◼   ► really annoying maybe some people don't

00:26:19 ◼   ► don't think they're annoying maybe some

00:26:21 ◼   ► people think that they're actually

00:26:22 ◼   ► useful they're like oh yeah I'd love to

00:26:23 ◼   ► support the SAP I didn't know I could do

00:26:25 ◼   ► that or you know this is something that

00:26:27 ◼   ► I enjoy doing and they like being

00:26:29 ◼   ► prompted to do it in the feeling of

00:26:30 ◼   ► empowerment of that or whatever but I

00:26:33 ◼   ► think whenever I was trying to wrestle

00:26:35 ◼   ► with this a little bit is I think the

00:26:36 ◼   ► approach that it probably makes sense

00:26:38 ◼   ► for most developers

00:26:39 ◼   ► is to like to keep keep an open mind in

00:26:43 ◼   ► terms of like what I was just saying

00:26:44 ◼   ► with myself of like well I may find

00:26:46 ◼   ► these annoying my customers may not but

00:26:49 ◼   ► not to take that to mean a as like a

00:26:51 ◼   ► blank check if I can just like do

00:26:52 ◼   ► whatever I want because someone might

00:26:54 ◼   ► like it but to view it from perspective

00:26:57 ◼   ► of like this is important this is

00:26:59 ◼   ► something that I think I've been

00:27:01 ◼   ► negligent in for a lot of my apps of

00:27:03 ◼   ► making sure that I'm to giving them

00:27:05 ◼   ► every opportunity to succeed and having

00:27:07 ◼   ► a good rich set of reviews in the App

00:27:10 ◼   ► Store is probably an important part of

00:27:12 ◼   ► that but the way to approach it is to

00:27:15 ◼   ► not just like jump all the way to 11 and

00:27:19 ◼   ► be like yeah like just throw dialog

00:27:21 ◼   ► boxes up every time they launch the app

00:27:23 ◼   ► like no that's probably not right but

00:27:26 ◼   ► instead when this is the approach thing

00:27:27 ◼   ► I'm kind of planning to take with my

00:27:30 ◼   ► apps going forward it's like I'm gonna

00:27:31 ◼   ► I'm gonna do this incrementally like I

00:27:33 ◼   ► used to have no dialog boxes at all I

00:27:35 ◼   ► would just have the like a sentence or

00:27:38 ◼   ► two in my release notes was the place

00:27:39 ◼   ► that I typically did it where like in my

00:27:42 ◼   ► changelog at the bottom I'd be like hey

00:27:43 ◼   ► if you have a minute right or maybe

00:27:45 ◼   ► that'd be great

00:27:45 ◼   ► not only does nobody read those but

00:27:47 ◼   ► people who do see them there never gets

00:27:48 ◼   ► the bottom yeah so like that was you

00:27:52 ◼   ► know by far the least of the least

00:27:53 ◼   ► obtrusive version that hasn't been

00:27:56 ◼   ► working perfectly so now I'm gonna put

00:27:58 ◼   ► it in the settings area right I'm gonna

00:28:00 ◼   ► I'm gonna I'm gonna put it there and I'm

00:28:02 ◼   ► gonna engage the response then I'll see

00:28:05 ◼   ► how that goes and I'm gonna if that's

00:28:07 ◼   ► not enough if that's still not quite

00:28:09 ◼   ► getting the outcome that I'd like I can

00:28:10 ◼   ► you know put it in a different part of

00:28:12 ◼   ► the settings area right now it's in the

00:28:13 ◼   ► bottom maybe I'll move it up to the top

00:28:14 ◼   ► and if that doesn't work maybe I'll

00:28:16 ◼   ► periodically show it on the main screen

00:28:18 ◼   ► but not in a modal way like this is even

00:28:21 ◼   ► the mindset I'm trying to take though of

00:28:22 ◼   ► like keeping my options open being

00:28:25 ◼   ► respectful always and not wanting to do

00:28:26 ◼   ► things that are complete you know like

00:28:29 ◼   ► super user hostile but like keeping an

00:28:32 ◼   ► open mind and doing this in

00:28:33 ◼   ► incrementally and seeing like where is

00:28:34 ◼   ► that point because my suspicion is and I

00:28:36 ◼   ► think your experience certainly is a

00:28:38 ◼   ► good example of this is like you can

00:28:39 ◼   ► find a place where you're kind of

00:28:42 ◼   ► hitting that balance between getting the

00:28:44 ◼   ► outcome that you need because you don't

00:28:45 ◼   ► do not that probably much of a

00:28:47 ◼   ► difference between having you know one

00:28:49 ◼   ► thousand and two thousand user reviews

00:28:51 ◼   ► in the App Store for example like

00:28:53 ◼   ► my guess is once you hit forward four

00:28:54 ◼   ► digits like people are they get you got

00:28:56 ◼   ► a sense of like wow that's a lot of

00:28:57 ◼   ► reviews and so just gotta get whatever

00:29:00 ◼   ► we have a mechanism such that you can

00:29:02 ◼   ► hit that number consistently and once

00:29:04 ◼   ► you can do that I think you're probably

00:29:05 ◼   ► gonna be fine and so I'm just gonna

00:29:06 ◼   ► start as basic as I can and I'm just

00:29:08 ◼   ► gonna keep dialing it up slowly until I

00:29:10 ◼   ► hit that point and see you know see

00:29:12 ◼   ► where that actually is I give this

00:29:14 ◼   ► approach four stars that seems

00:29:16 ◼   ► reasonable I withhold the fifth until

00:29:18 ◼   ► you do my favorite pet feature all right

00:29:20 ◼   ► we're out of time this week thank you

00:29:22 ◼   ► very much everybody for listening and we

00:29:24 ◼   ► will talk to you next week bye