0:00:00welcome to under the radar a show about
0:00:02independent iOS app development I'm
0:00:04Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
0:00:06the radar is never longer than 30
0:00:07minutes so let's get started so today we
0:00:09wanted to talk about speaking at
0:00:11conferences David and I have both done a
0:00:14lot of it David you're right in the
0:00:16middle of two conferences now and we a
0:00:20lot of developers you know both attend
0:00:22conferences and also many developers are
0:00:24asked to speak at developer conferences
0:00:26and so there's there's certainly a lot
0:00:29of I don't know if interest around this
0:00:32topic I'd say and we figured we go over
0:00:35like kind of what it's like to speak at
0:00:38a conference why you might want to why
0:00:40you might not want to the process
0:00:43involved and kind of had to manage it
0:00:44that seemed reasonable
0:00:45yeah and I think it's a kind of thing
0:00:47that I remember being very intimidated
0:00:51by when I was early in my career I
0:00:54didn't when I was in the phase where I
0:00:56would really only ever attend
0:00:57conferences and I'd kind of go and that
0:00:59see these people do this they this thing
0:01:01up on a stage and it would feel very
0:01:02scary and my hope is that we can kind of
0:01:05make that a little less scary or at
0:01:08least put some handles on it for if
0:01:09you're someone who is trying to think
0:01:12about getting into this or wanting to
0:01:14start doing conference speaking to make
0:01:17it a little bit less scary because it's
0:01:18but not really as scary as it may
0:01:20sometimes feel yeah and so you know
0:01:23first you know it's let's assume that
0:01:25there's a conference that you either
0:01:27want to submit a proposal to or that has
0:01:29asked you to speak so so assume
0:01:30basically that you're in the planning
0:01:31process or the deciding process one
0:01:34thing to think about is like is this the
0:01:37kind of thing you want to do and and
0:01:39what are you looking to get out of it it
0:01:41is not a quick or easy process it is it
0:01:44is not something you can just kind of
0:01:45blow off and and get on with your life
0:01:47it takes a lot of time to prepare for a
0:01:49conference speaking and you know like I
0:01:52mean I would say most of my talks I'm
0:01:54probably preparing for maybe a week
0:01:57ahead of time like salt a solid weekend
0:01:59I might not that might be spread out
0:02:00across you know more time spans but it's
0:02:04about of about a week of work I would
0:02:05say for a good talk is that is that
0:02:07about it right for you I'd say so I mean
0:02:09I think I probably spend typically two
0:02:12to three days
0:02:13is just getting the talk like I want it
0:02:17in terms of the structure and the slides
0:02:19and the overall kind of flow of it and
0:02:23then it's probably another couple of
0:02:25days this is where it starts to become
0:02:26more spread out but if just practicing
0:02:29of going through and doing it over and
0:02:31over again and especially depending on
0:02:33how long your conference slot is you
0:02:35know so sometimes I've done the
0:02:37conference speaking where I'm only doing
0:02:39you know 15 20 minute talks where
0:02:41rehearsal is a bit easier because you
0:02:43know doing a full run-through you can do
0:02:45pretty quickly but I've also done in
0:02:46talks where it's 45 minutes to an hour
0:02:48where then the rehearsal schedule gets a
0:02:51little bit longer and more drawn-out
0:02:52because if you want to do a single
0:02:54run-through takes you know it takes a
0:02:55full hour to do that run through but
0:02:58overall yeah I'd say it's about about a
0:03:00week if you want to do it well and I
0:03:03think that is something that I when I
0:03:06was first sort of mouth my the first
0:03:08time I ever said yes to doing a
0:03:09conference speak speech I remember
0:03:12having no real concept of how long it
0:03:14was going to take I was like oh you know
0:03:15it's the kind of thing maybe it's like
0:03:16I'll spend an afternoon kind of putting
0:03:19it together and you know how wrong I was
0:03:22about that I think is a good thing to
0:03:24say just because if you don't plan for
0:03:27it in that way and Vout and factor that
0:03:28in whether you can both they have afford
0:03:31the time for it and then if you actually
0:03:33just have the ability to do it is
0:03:36definitely something that if you're not
0:03:37expecting it like it's it's easy to
0:03:39imagine that you know the output only
0:03:43Tiffani were just trying to put together
0:03:45a 15-minute song
0:03:47it seems like that should be really easy
0:03:48but trying to have something that's
0:03:50concise and to the point in that period
0:03:52of time takes way more effort then you'd
0:03:55probably even imagine yeah I mean like
0:03:57like one of the places I usually start
0:03:59is by writing out the the bulk of what
0:04:02I'm going to say kind of like in like an
0:04:05outline format that's kind of like an
0:04:06informal outline so it's kind of like
0:04:08halfway between an outline and a
0:04:10blogpost because what the basis of any
0:04:13good talk is some kind of coherent story
0:04:16that runs through it so you know a good
0:04:18talk should basically read like like if
0:04:21you if you read transcription of it it
0:04:23should basically read like a good blog
0:04:25post you know like a persuasive essay or
0:04:27good story or something like that and so
0:04:30it really helps a lot to write it out
0:04:32you know even if you're not writing out
0:04:34exactly every word you want to say just
0:04:36to at least write out like a general
0:04:39overview that is readable so that you
0:04:41can then treat it a little bit like a
0:04:43blog post as you're writing it and be
0:04:45able to edit things move things around
0:04:47reframe things in ways that make more
0:04:49sense as a coherent story because if you
0:04:52don't do that and so and I've had talks
0:04:54where I've done that I've had talked to
0:04:55where I haven't done that the ones were
0:04:57the ones where I just opened up keynote
0:04:59and just started making slides have
0:05:01always been substantially worse the ones
0:05:05that I start out like just as if as a
0:05:07presentation that way I just always
0:05:09worse it my best talks I haven't done
0:05:12that many but ultimately like my good
0:05:14talks are the ones where I have written
0:05:16it out basically as as a blog post style
0:05:19of speaking and structurally first and
0:05:22then gone and made the slides from that
0:05:24point and this is all to say also that
0:05:26you know that that you should treat it
0:05:29not as this kind of full waterfall
0:05:32process of like you write it all out
0:05:33then you make the slides then you go
0:05:35give them all of my talks I have edited
0:05:38up until like the night before I've
0:05:41given them some times the same day I've
0:05:42given them I'm still editing them
0:05:43because what you realize during
0:05:47rehearsal which you should you should
0:05:49always rehearse your talks hopefully
0:05:52even more than once if you have the time
0:05:54before you give them because rehearsing
0:05:57it like by yourself running through it
0:05:58like actually like standing up with a
0:06:01clicker and having your lap up in
0:06:03presentation mode like actually like
0:06:05running through it as you would give it
0:06:06giving it to a room of nobody is
0:06:09incredibly valuable to get a sense for
0:06:12kind of what works what doesn't you know
0:06:13how it flows how it doesn't flow like
0:06:16what parts you stumble over what parts
0:06:18need to be rethought or don't belong or
0:06:20kind of break the rhythm or whatever
0:06:22else the the rehearsal part of it is
0:06:25invaluable and I highly highly recommend
0:06:28that you never give a talk that you have
0:06:30not rehearsed if it's this kind of
0:06:32format and we'll get to well I have some
0:06:34pics about this format that I get to
0:06:35later but in the kind of traditional
0:06:37format of you have a person standing in
0:06:39front of a crowd with a microphone and
0:06:41station clicker going through a slide
0:06:43deck and talking you need to have
0:06:44rehearsed that because otherwise it
0:06:47basically it shows if you haven't
0:06:49rehearsed it and it really helps to get
0:06:51a lot of the a lot of the the problems
0:06:53that you kind of stand them away if you
0:06:55go through some rehearsals and realize
0:06:57what doesn't work and edit what needs
0:06:58what needs to be edited yeah and I think
0:07:00- it's what I find is most helpful when
0:07:03I'm preparing some of the talk and I
0:07:05don't quite do that through the road
0:07:06that you do where you kind of outlined
0:07:07it like I tend to think it through in my
0:07:10head and it's the kind of thing that
0:07:13once I sign up for a talk I'll take in
0:07:15the back of my mind for like a month I'm
0:07:17kind of running through this vague sense
0:07:19of what I want to accomplish and I think
0:07:21one of the key things that I found is
0:07:22that if I can condense what I'm trying
0:07:26to say to you know a few sentences or a
0:07:311 minute kind of overview like I can
0:07:33kind of get this kernel of like this is
0:07:35the thing that I want the audience to
0:07:37come away with and I can be very concise
0:07:40and specific about that I always find
0:07:42that's very helpful for me to prepare a
0:07:44compelling talk and as I go through my
0:07:47rehearsals I can kind of judge if I'm
0:07:50going down any dead ends or things that
0:07:52aren't connecting back to that main
0:07:55point because the reality I think - is
0:07:57as like I used to be really scared of
0:08:01public speaking in and a lot of that was
0:08:04coming from overemphasizing I think the
0:08:06the reaction that your audience is going
0:08:08to have to your talk that you put all
0:08:11this time and effort into it and the
0:08:12reality and you kind of you in initially
0:08:14I used to think that everyone is going
0:08:16to be like hanging on every word and
0:08:18really thinking about it and and I can
0:08:20turn Eliza knit but then I started to go
0:08:22to conferences and I realized that I
0:08:24would I leave with a talk is a general
0:08:27impression far more often than I do like
0:08:29a specific like a detailed understanding
0:08:31or analysis of what someone just said
0:08:34like you kind of get this high level
0:08:36well that's kind of what they were
0:08:38saying and if what you want to do as
0:08:40you're preparing it I feel like is to
0:08:42make sure that that impression that
0:08:44you're going to be leaving someone with
0:08:45is the actual impression that you're
0:08:47trying to leave them with and so as you
0:08:49do it if you have this the core thesis
0:08:51that you can kind of compare all of your
0:08:53notes slides with compare all the
0:08:54like anecdotes or the lines of thinking
0:08:56you're doing towards I feel like that
0:08:58makes it a much more compelling thing
0:09:00because everything is just pointing back
0:09:01to the same point over and over and over
0:09:03again you know when when you're writing
0:09:06it or when you're thinking about what
0:09:07what it will be like to be to give a
0:09:09conference talk and maybe you're
0:09:10stressing out about it like one of the
0:09:12things that that I that I read I think
0:09:14it was like the there's that one book
0:09:16like a bad that everybody reads I giving
0:09:18presentations I've totally forgotten
0:09:19what it is this is well and I read like
0:09:23the first I'd rather the intro basically
0:09:25that's it because I don't read very very
0:09:27well but one of the things I learn from
0:09:29that which which is a very valuable
0:09:31lesson is that you know if you think
0:09:34about what people stressed out about
0:09:36most of the time people are stressed out
0:09:37with the project of giving the talk
0:09:39about what if I say too much or I
0:09:43stumble over a sentence or or I I fumble
0:09:46something or I don't say something right
0:09:47and the reality is that if you actually
0:09:50if you've been to conferences if you
0:09:53actually think about it and actually pay
0:09:54attention to what people are saying word
0:09:56for word detailing a little
0:09:58transcription for a minute in your mind
0:10:00and you'll see that people on stage are
0:10:02constantly fumbling look you know
0:10:04fumbling over their words are constantly
0:10:05saying or more alike and you are
0:10:09actually Auto correcting that in your
0:10:11head as you're listening so it doesn't
0:10:13really matter at all that is not that is
0:10:15not a kind of thing you need to worry
0:10:17about when you're doing that kind of
0:10:19public speaking it basically the room
0:10:20does not care if you say uh they just
0:10:23don't care so that's not that isn't we
0:10:25have to worry about and you're right
0:10:26that you also have to worry less about
0:10:28like the every single thing you're
0:10:29saying being greater accurate or tied
0:10:32together because the room is going to
0:10:34have very different levels of people
0:10:36paying attention especially you know
0:10:37look around a tech conference anybody
0:10:39you see with a laptop they're not paying
0:10:41attention to anyone with the phone in
0:10:42their hand they're not paying attention
0:10:43anyone who's going to get a coffee or
0:10:45drink they're not paying attention so
0:10:46you know you're talking to maybe a third
0:10:48of the room who's actually listening and
0:10:50but where it can help to have a coherent
0:10:53story is to keep people's attention like
0:10:57if you're kind of all over the place
0:10:58where there's some rough spots in the
0:11:00presentation where like you're throwing
0:11:01in stuff that didn't really need to be
0:11:02there or you're not really saying or
0:11:04telling some kind of long convoluted
0:11:06story doesn't really make sense or
0:11:07whatever else
0:11:08you're giving people opportunities to
0:11:10tune out and so if you can keep them
0:11:13engaged with something that's a little
0:11:14bit better rehearsed and edited more
0:11:16people will hear what you're trying to
0:11:18say and and people who want to pay
0:11:20attention will have an easier time
0:11:21paying attention and I think it's also
0:11:23bright fair to say it's always better to
0:11:24run short than run long yes
0:11:27you know you mean obviously conference
0:11:29organisers if you if you're somebody
0:11:30give you a slot you want to be
0:11:32respectful of you know if they say it's
0:11:33a half hour slot don't show up and do a
0:11:35ten minute talk like that probably
0:11:37wouldn't go well but on the flip side if
0:11:39you have to go one way or the other I
0:11:41always run short no one's ever gonna be
0:11:43like oh you know it's like if you leave
0:11:45the audience being like oh I wish you
0:11:47would just talk had talked for hours and
0:11:48hours it's like you're doing great don't
0:11:50worry about it but on the flip side if
0:11:52someone's like oh why won't he is like
0:11:54is he ever going to finish is this like
0:11:56where is this going that is far more
0:11:58problematic than things like being too
0:12:00short exactly and then I guess the nice
0:12:04thing to talk about is kind of like if
0:12:05you're going to do one of these talks
0:12:07kind of the mechanics of like what what
0:12:10should your presentation include what
0:12:12should it not include how to do certain
0:12:14things I mean number one that these
0:12:16presentations almost always include is
0:12:18slides you have some kind of slide deck
0:12:20usually from keynote or if if you are in
0:12:23the Microsoft world from PowerPoint and
0:12:24you go through the slide deck and and it
0:12:27can be like you know meaningfully
0:12:29structured or whatever else it could be
0:12:31heavily designed it could be very
0:12:34bare-bones it could be all pictures or
0:12:36all text or whatever else I would say
0:12:38from my experience making slides there's
0:12:41always going to be other people at the
0:12:43conference whose slides look way better
0:12:45than mine and that will make me feel bad
0:12:47but the reality is that spending a lot
0:12:50of time on your slides especially the
0:12:52kind of conference is that that
0:12:53listeners of the show would attend or be
0:12:55asked to speak at you know a lot of like
0:12:57kind of nerdy one spending a ton of time
0:12:59on your slides is a massive time sink
0:13:02that will never end and is probably not
0:13:04worth stressing too much out about like
0:13:07I mean one of my talks I gave at at
0:13:10singleton a few years back I didn't even
0:13:12have slides because I was like I had had
0:13:14a bad experience with slides and at a
0:13:16previous conference and I said all right
0:13:17next next time I do one no slides it was
0:13:19totally fine
0:13:20like if you have a good
0:13:22story to speak and you can keep people's
0:13:24attention well enough by what by just
0:13:26the words and it's a little bit harder
0:13:27but it's possible then doing without
0:13:29slides is actually kind of freeing and
0:13:31wonderful but you know if you're gonna
0:13:34have slides I would say again for the
0:13:37people listening to this show doing like
0:13:38you know geeky and programming types of
0:13:41conferences I would say don't spend a
0:13:44whole lot of time trying to make them in
0:13:46the most incredibly designed slides ever
0:13:48keep them very simple you know don't put
0:13:51a lot of text on them just keep it keep
0:13:52it simple you know you know single
0:13:54sentences or words pictures if you have
0:13:58to show pictures definitely don't be
0:14:00reading off of them you know simple
0:14:01stuff you can get from pretty much any
0:14:02you know guide on how to do good
0:14:05presentations and I think in many ways
0:14:07it reminds me of app design in the way
0:14:09that I have to approach it myself where
0:14:11I always admire slide decks that are
0:14:15beautiful and really well and put
0:14:17together and really clever but the
0:14:20reality is in the same way that I'm not
0:14:21really an app designer and I can't make
0:14:23like there's a certain kind of design
0:14:25that I love to look at in an app but I
0:14:27just can't do myself I understand that
0:14:30in the same way when I'm designing a
0:14:32keynote deck I can't make it look pretty
0:14:35in that way and so all of my - all of
0:14:37them the presentations I think I've ever
0:14:38given I opened up keynote I choose the
0:14:41first template which is a black
0:14:43background with white text that's very
0:14:45important by the way because if you if
0:14:47you you know at any conference you see
0:14:49like you see the problems when somebody
0:14:50has a white background basically this is
0:14:52being projected by a dim crappy
0:14:55projector onto a gray wall or or screens
0:14:58like anything that that has like a white
0:15:01edge it's gonna be all like you know
0:15:03this blurry white edge and those screws
0:15:05it just goes like a big big square in
0:15:06the middle the wall like whereas if you
0:15:08have a black background and white
0:15:11elements then those elements seem like
0:15:14they're floating in the middle of the
0:15:15wall there's you don't see the borders
0:15:17around it basically and that's why
0:15:19that's why Apple's slide deck so are
0:15:21always you know when they're presented
0:15:22things it's always black backgrounds
0:15:24with things just kind of floating in the
0:15:25middle that's why it looks better and
0:15:27it's easier to see for the people in the
0:15:28room and then beyond that I think like
0:15:31just like you said it's being careful to
0:15:33I for me my slides are usually
0:15:36like a short phrase like two or three
0:15:38words on each slide they're just there
0:15:40for emphasis they're not there to convey
0:15:42any information typically like every now
0:15:45and then they'll have a slide that's you
0:15:46know it's like it's a graph or it's a
0:15:48picture or diagram we're supposed to
0:15:50convey information but otherwise it's
0:15:52just you know essentially whatever
0:15:54sentence I'm saying right now if there's
0:15:56something I want to emphasize it's on
0:15:58the slide behind me and it's kind of
0:16:00like not like a transcript in that way
0:16:02but it's if you just went through and
0:16:05listened and looked at the slides
0:16:07they're just there to emphasize things
0:16:09but then actually also I wanted to
0:16:11mention too is it's the importance of if
0:16:13you actually are doing this and you
0:16:14actually think the experience of doing
0:16:15it so you know you signed up you've
0:16:16built this a presentation the actual
0:16:19experience of going and giving a talk
0:16:21something's to keep in mind one is you
0:16:24always want to ideally you'd always want
0:16:27to do it like a run-through in the in
0:16:30the venue but you ideally will have your
0:16:32slides on the machine that they're going
0:16:35to be run on you're going to want to
0:16:37have a clicker you want to stand on the
0:16:38stage and you know just hit next slide a
0:16:40few times make sure everything looks
0:16:42good make sure you feel comfortable with
0:16:43where everything is like the worst thing
0:16:46is if you just you know at the last
0:16:48minute hand somebody a drive which is
0:16:50kind of amusing but in conferences or
0:16:52the only situation and I can counter now
0:16:54where I ever have to use like old USB
0:16:56thumb drive yeah because that seems to
0:16:58be the universal way of getting
0:16:59conference slides to the organizers but
0:17:02you hand that to somebody like you don't
0:17:04want to be handing that to them the
0:17:05moment before you step onstage because
0:17:07who knows what's gonna happen when they
0:17:09go try and open that keynote deck and
0:17:11you want to do a quick run-through you
0:17:13want to make sure everything's together
0:17:14and for me at least I find too that it
0:17:16helps it makes me a little less nervous
0:17:18if I it's like if the all of the
0:17:21practical logistic parts are taken care
0:17:23of that I know I know where I'm gonna be
0:17:26I know what I'm going to hold in my hand
0:17:29what kind of microphone it's gonna be
0:17:30for example like it makes a big
0:17:32difference in terms of if you are gonna
0:17:33have a handheld microphone where you're
0:17:37gonna have to be aware of keeping that
0:17:38in this you know in a constant place
0:17:40where your mouth is if it's a lapel
0:17:42microphone where you have to be careful
0:17:43of how you move your shoulders because
0:17:45if you have a lapel microphone sometimes
0:17:47you need to be careful that you don't
0:17:48turn your head
0:17:50the opposite direction of your shoulders
0:17:51where suddenly you kid that you your
0:17:54voice starts to fall off from the
0:17:55microphone or if it's the really cool
0:17:57ones the ones that can like stick out of
0:17:58your ear and come down where you can
0:18:01have a bit more flexibility but it's a
0:18:03good thing to run through that and in my
0:18:05experience if you ask an organiser hey
0:18:08I'd love to do a quick run-through of my
0:18:10slides like I want to be more prepared I
0:18:13very rarely will you encounter an
0:18:14organizer who's like no no no you know
0:18:16that we can't do that like their other
0:18:18goal is for you to do well and so it's
0:18:21always a good idea to try and do that do
0:18:23a quick run-through make sure you feel
0:18:25comfortable in the space and are
0:18:27confident that everything's gonna work
0:18:28and so you don't have those things
0:18:30weighing on you as you're getting ready
0:18:32to actually do it alright so now we're
0:18:34going to talk about basically you know
0:18:37things like is it worth doing doing
0:18:39conference speaking and why you might
0:18:41want to in the format etc but first our
0:18:43sponsor which is always worth talking
0:18:45about our sponsor this week is Linode go
0:18:48to lynda.com slash radar to learn more
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0:20:16supporting this show so we basically
0:20:19talked so far about like if you want to
0:20:20do conference speaking like how you know
0:20:22some general tips and pointers as much
0:20:24as we can fit into like 18 minutes of
0:20:26how to do it kind of you know how to
0:20:27write and how to how to do some
0:20:29technical sides of it I want to talk a
0:20:31little bit about though reasons why you
0:20:33might want to do this at all and reasons
0:20:35why you might not want to do this at all
0:20:36this you know if you if you get to any
0:20:39level of notability in a field
0:20:43especially in the tech field you are
0:20:45likely to be asked to speak at some kind
0:20:47of event or conference and especially
0:20:50you know like in the in the in our
0:20:52little world of app and tech people we
0:20:54have lots of conferences big and small
0:20:56many of them are kind of more
0:20:59commercially run and where the speakers
0:21:01are getting paid a substantial amount
0:21:03and the tickets are cost a lot of money
0:21:05and they're usually larger and they
0:21:07usually appeal to like wide you know
0:21:09wider markets like a Java conference or
0:21:11whatever and then you have a lot of
0:21:13these like smaller indie ones that I
0:21:16think the iOS world has more of those
0:21:18typically where you have like smaller
0:21:20budgets oftentimes the speakers are not
0:21:23getting paid either at all or like that
0:21:25you know they might have their travel
0:21:27expenses and ticket covered but no
0:21:28additional money after that or some some
0:21:30small amount like you know under $2,000
0:21:33say obviously that their it varies for
0:21:35you whether that's consider a small
0:21:36amount but some something in that range
0:21:38you know and so you can you can look at
0:21:41like whether to do this as like
0:21:44basically if you're going to be a
0:21:46professional conference speaker if you
0:21:48are going to if you want to speak for
0:21:50money if the money is what drives you
0:21:52here you really need to be doing it a
0:21:54lot and that's why I like the people who
0:21:56speak on conference circuits they tend
0:21:58to make a small number of talks and give
0:22:01each one a high number of times
0:22:03sometimes they'll give the same talk all
0:22:04around the country or are on the world
0:22:06of different events for like a whole
0:22:08year because that's their business that
0:22:10they make one amazing talk that is
0:22:12applicable to a wide audience in a
0:22:13certain industry and they go around the
0:22:15world and they
0:22:16paid good money because that is
0:22:18effectively that that's their full-time
0:22:19job or that is most of their job or they
0:22:23you know maybe they use that to build
0:22:24credibility to sell more books or or
0:22:26they write books to increase their
0:22:27speaking fees my boss speaking so it's
0:22:30that is a whole career and if you want
0:22:32to do that that is a very different
0:22:33career than being a software developer
0:22:36and that might be well suited to you but
0:22:38I you know you have to decide we know
0:22:40whether that's the kind of career that
0:22:41you want and all the things come along
0:22:42with it like a lot of travel and things
0:22:44like that if if that's not your goal if
0:22:48your goal is simply to speak at a
0:22:51conference because it might be fun or
0:22:53you want to attend that conference and
0:22:55that's an easy way to attend it or you
0:22:58want to promote something that you are
0:23:00doing like an app you're making that's a
0:23:02very different job and that in that kind
0:23:04of case whether or how much you're being
0:23:07paid is way less important because
0:23:09chances are whatever they're going to
0:23:10offer you is not going to be worth the
0:23:13week plus of work that you're going to
0:23:15lose by if I agree to do this not to
0:23:18mention that you know the value of
0:23:19whatever stress it might put you through
0:23:21so the money part of it I think is
0:23:24almost irrelevant for most people who
0:23:26are in our kind of business because it's
0:23:29not going to be enough money where the
0:23:31money is going to matter to you
0:23:32in all likelihood so I would say ignore
0:23:36the money part of it and and really
0:23:37think about like do I want to do this to
0:23:40promote something or to give back to a
0:23:43conference I've I've loved for years or
0:23:45or to just get better at public speaking
0:23:48or whatever else and that's a very
0:23:50different question and so like to me
0:23:52I've actually decided over the last
0:23:54couple of years that it is almost never
0:23:56worth doing it for me because I get so
0:23:59much stress about it and I lose so much
0:24:02time to it and that even when I go to a
0:24:04conference to speak at it I end up not
0:24:06really able to enjoy that conference
0:24:08until my talk is over which is often at
0:24:11least halfway through it and and so it
0:24:13is and like all like the the fun like
0:24:16socializing and and and things that
0:24:17happened before my talk I basically
0:24:19don't enjoy or don't even get to attend
0:24:21so I I have recently found that I would
0:24:24rather just do like podcasts and
0:24:26occasional blog post to get my message
0:24:28out
0:24:29hardly ever speak at conferences and
0:24:31then just attend conferences because I
0:24:32enjoy them and that way I'm able to
0:24:34enjoy them rather than really do a lot
0:24:36of talks and that that's why I do almost
0:24:38no talks anymore what do you think so I
0:24:41think there's a tricky balance and I
0:24:44think for sure I think you're right in
0:24:45the sense that I don't do conferences
0:24:47for financial reasons like they're out
0:24:49there they're definitely a loss part of
0:24:52my professional career at this point
0:24:54like that's and going down the route of
0:24:55trying to do it more professionally
0:24:57where you would actually get reasonable
0:24:58speaking fees and things it's just a
0:24:59whole other world that I don't really
0:25:01have much interest in and I think when I
0:25:04was starting out I had the first time
0:25:06like a conference organizer reached out
0:25:07to me and said hey I think you'd be a
0:25:08good fit for this conference I remember
0:25:12it's like I wanted to do it mostly just
0:25:14just so that I would have done it and
0:25:17none it's nothing like a like a oh look
0:25:20at me I've done it kind of thing but a
0:25:22bit to eliminate this like the fear of
0:25:24it that I think public speaking is one
0:25:27of the things that it's so easy to get
0:25:30scared of to really have genuine honest
0:25:32fear about but the only way you can
0:25:35really get over that is to sort of work
0:25:37on it and try it and if you're well
0:25:39prepared it's a it's less scary than you
0:25:42might expect and largely I do conference
0:25:45speaking now just for the purpose of
0:25:47practicing and developing that skill to
0:25:50make it easier and better for myself
0:25:52down the road to give myself
0:25:54opportunities that I may not otherwise
0:25:56have to speak at there are some
0:25:58conferences that I you know have would
0:26:01have always wanted to go to for example
0:26:03and it's like you have the goal of like
0:26:05well maybe one day I could get to speak
0:26:06at that and the only way you're going to
0:26:08be sort of good enough to do that is if
0:26:10you have practiced and one thing I will
0:26:13say is a nice way to start out if you're
0:26:17kind of trying to feel this out for
0:26:18yourself is this something that's worth
0:26:20it for you is it something that you'd
0:26:21like to do is to start small and there's
0:26:24a lot of conferences that are small like
0:26:27really like I think of like Coco Kampf
0:26:29is an example of this where it's a
0:26:31relatively small multitrack conference
0:26:33that is probably able you know anyone
0:26:36with who is able to put in some
0:26:38preparation could probably speak at or
0:26:40another example there's a lot of user
0:26:41groups you know Wow
0:26:43often speaking is a bit more
0:26:44sophisticated a lot of local you know
0:26:47user groups will have monthly things
0:26:49where someone gets up and talks for 10
0:26:51minutes 20 minutes about something cool
0:26:52they're working on and you can kind of
0:26:53get a feel for it but it is a tricky
0:26:55question to say like is it worth it
0:26:58because I think it's something that you
0:27:01typically are doing for reasons other
0:27:03than strictly rational reasons like it's
0:27:06for me it's a lot of it's about
0:27:07conquering of fear and being comfortable
0:27:10doing this so that I don't have this
0:27:12part of my professional skill set that I
0:27:16feel like is do is you know isn't there
0:27:18because while the nature of being an
0:27:20developer and doing work you know
0:27:23largely by myself it's not that I need
0:27:25to keep working have tremendous
0:27:27communication skills but I would feel
0:27:29bad about letting those skills just sort
0:27:33of fall waste and so overall I think it
0:27:36is a tricky thing to find that balance
0:27:38and I think it is very important to
0:27:40understand that it is a huge cost and
0:27:42sink in terms of time that you know it
0:27:45we're all said and done like I'm
0:27:47speaking at all this year and that's a
0:27:50conference that's in Ireland so in
0:27:52addition to like roughly it may be a
0:27:54week's worth of prep I'm also going to
0:27:56be flying somewhere and dealing with jet
0:27:57lag and then dealing with jet lag on the
0:27:59way back in many ways we had these
0:28:01similar conversations when we're talk
0:28:02about going to WWDC like is it worth it
0:28:05to go to that where you know you can
0:28:07kind of get a lot of the the feeling of
0:28:09it without actually going you can get a
0:28:12lot of the information but there is
0:28:13something different about actually going
0:28:15and for me conference speaking is a
0:28:17great way to kind of get myself to go to
0:28:19more conferences because I feel it's a
0:28:22hard thing to sometimes decide uh-huh
0:28:24you know do I want to pay to travel
0:28:26don't want to pay to buy ticket and be
0:28:28away from my family to attend it makes
0:28:30it a little bit easier where I feel like
0:28:31I'm I'm accomplishing something by doing
0:28:34that that I'm getting better at speaking
0:28:35as a result and typically it's helpful
0:28:37that they pay for the accommodation the
0:28:39travel and the ticket but there is
0:28:42definitely a balance to be struck there
0:28:43between is am I getting enough out of it
0:28:46and the nice thing about conference
0:28:48speaking is you know if you really want
0:28:50to do it and pursue it a lot you can
0:28:52probably find opportunities to do that
0:28:53if you only want to do it one or two
0:28:54times you can probably find a way to do
0:28:56that
0:28:57like there's an easily scalable up and
0:28:59down between the two extremes yeah
0:29:02and I mean you know to close this out
0:29:04cuz we're out of time now I think I
0:29:06would say if you are on the fence about
0:29:07whether to speak at a conference reasons
0:29:10that you that you don't need to worry
0:29:12about are things like what if I'm
0:29:13terrible at it what if people laugh at
0:29:15me is like that that doesn't really
0:29:16happen in this community like that that
0:29:19literally never happens so you don't
0:29:21have to worry about that I think what
0:29:22you mainly have to worry about is is it
0:29:24worth it to me and and if you've never
0:29:26done it before it's a good reason just
0:29:29do it as you know just just try it just
0:29:30to find out if it's worth it for you you
0:29:32might find that you love it
0:29:33you might find that you hate it but you
0:29:35should you know if you have the
0:29:36opportunity to try it try it and then
0:29:39decide from there exactly and I think
0:29:41that's the right way to think about it
0:29:42just keep an open mind to it and it's an
0:29:45important thing to just try and if it
0:29:49doesn't work that's no problem
0:29:50but if you've learned something about
0:29:51yourself in the process alright thanks
0:29:54everybody for listening and we'll talk
0:29:55to you next week bye