Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show but

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so this

00:00:11 ◼   ► week I had a sad thing happened to me

00:00:14 ◼   ► that I wanted to unpack on the show so I

00:00:16 ◼   ► had to retire one of my apps and one of

00:00:20 ◼   ► the apps that obviously I have a lot of

00:00:21 ◼   ► apps and I've quietly retired many of

00:00:24 ◼   ► them in the past the ones that never had

00:00:26 ◼   ► any downloads the ones that just didn't

00:00:28 ◼   ► work out and you kind of just removed

00:00:30 ◼   ► them from the store and that's that but

00:00:32 ◼   ► I had one of them had removing out from

00:00:34 ◼   ► the store that wasn't one of those apps

00:00:36 ◼   ► that the had some success that was

00:00:38 ◼   ► something I was proud of being out there

00:00:40 ◼   ► I think this is actually the first app

00:00:42 ◼   ► of yours that I've ever both heard of

00:00:44 ◼   ► and downloaded that you're also now

00:00:46 ◼   ► killing the hakko it comes full circle

00:00:49 ◼   ► and the app was it's called check the

00:00:51 ◼   ► weather and it is a weather app that at

00:00:56 ◼   ► the time I launched it and I know

00:00:58 ◼   ► exactly when I was it was for week four

00:01:00 ◼   ► years ago as of last Monday the reason I

00:01:03 ◼   ► and I and sort of publicly announced its

00:01:05 ◼   ► end of life last Monday for that reason

00:01:07 ◼   ► when I was planning this and scheduling

00:01:09 ◼   ► it out and I looked at the schedule and

00:01:10 ◼   ► I was like wait I think I launched it a

00:01:12 ◼   ► wrestler or somewhere in middle of

00:01:14 ◼   ► October and it turned out it was for you

00:01:17 ◼   ► exactly four years ago so the app had a

00:01:19 ◼   ► four year life oh and it's just a you

00:01:21 ◼   ► know it's a weather app it's a strange

00:01:24 ◼   ► thing in some ways to try and describe

00:01:26 ◼   ► what it is or what it does what made it

00:01:27 ◼   ► special because the weather I have is

00:01:29 ◼   ► like they're all strange in the sense

00:01:31 ◼   ► that they all have the same basic data

00:01:34 ◼   ► and then the differences between all the

00:01:36 ◼   ► apps are just you know questions of

00:01:38 ◼   ► style of nuance but check the weather

00:01:43 ◼   ► always has kind of a special place for

00:01:44 ◼   ► me because it was the first app that I

00:01:47 ◼   ► ever felt that I kind of did it right no

00:01:50 ◼   ► you know it's it I started from the

00:01:52 ◼   ► beginning and said you know what what

00:01:54 ◼   ► happens if I take a run at a very

00:01:56 ◼   ► well-established category doing

00:01:59 ◼   ► everything right you know so doing

00:02:00 ◼   ► having a proper actual marketing plan

00:02:02 ◼   ► that was an actual thing that I did

00:02:04 ◼   ► before either than just kind of throwing

00:02:05 ◼   ► it over the wall or sending some blind

00:02:07 ◼   ► emails

00:02:08 ◼   ► and it was localized from day one it had

00:02:12 ◼   ► great voiceover supported all the things

00:02:14 ◼   ► that I kind of was about in my mind were

00:02:16 ◼   ► always the things that you had to do to

00:02:19 ◼   ► launch an app that was you know if

00:02:21 ◼   ► you're gonna do it right if you're going

00:02:22 ◼   ► to give it an honest chance and if

00:02:25 ◼   ► you're curious if your listener to this

00:02:26 ◼   ► show but you weren't a listener to the

00:02:28 ◼   ► podcast I used to do called developing

00:02:30 ◼   ► perspective I'll have links in the show

00:02:32 ◼   ► notes to I did a whole series of

00:02:34 ◼   ► episodes on developing perspective which

00:02:37 ◼   ► rather than being 30 minutes long is

00:02:38 ◼   ► only 15 minutes long so even though this

00:02:40 ◼   ► is a lot of episodes it wouldn't take

00:02:42 ◼   ► that long to catch up we're actually

00:02:43 ◼   ► walked through at the in real time as I

00:02:45 ◼   ► was building back in 2002

00:02:48 ◼   ► back in 2012 I walked through the

00:02:51 ◼   ► process of what went into this but

00:02:52 ◼   ► anyway the long and the short of it is I

00:02:54 ◼   ► had this app I launched it it did great

00:02:57 ◼   ► it had a very big spiky launch I think

00:02:59 ◼   ► it peaked at number three overall in the

00:03:02 ◼   ► App Store which at the time for me was

00:03:05 ◼   ► just you know mind-bending I actually

00:03:06 ◼   ► have very warm and specific memories of

00:03:09 ◼   ► that day when it launched just

00:03:11 ◼   ► celebrating having my wife found someone

00:03:14 ◼   ► to watch the kids and came into the

00:03:15 ◼   ► office with I think even Chuck's like

00:03:19 ◼   ► Chinese for dinner and a bottle of

00:03:20 ◼   ► champagne and we you know actually

00:03:22 ◼   ► celebrated exceda it all kind of worked

00:03:24 ◼   ► and it kind of all worked out but that

00:03:27 ◼   ► was four years ago

00:03:28 ◼   ► that's a long time ago in App Store

00:03:31 ◼   ► terms and so this week I now it will no

00:03:35 ◼   ► longer be supported and for something

00:03:37 ◼   ► like a weather app that means I'm

00:03:39 ◼   ► turning off the API at the backend and

00:03:43 ◼   ► that's kind of a sad thing but it was

00:03:46 ◼   ► kind of inevitable because the tricky

00:03:48 ◼   ► thing with someone Apple I checked the

00:03:49 ◼   ► weather is that at least the way that I

00:03:51 ◼   ► launched it is at the time we didn't

00:03:53 ◼   ► really have a lot of this kind of

00:03:53 ◼   ► subscription options you have we have

00:03:55 ◼   ► now and so I was really more sort of

00:03:57 ◼   ► like freer page where my options four

00:03:59 ◼   ► years ago I could have sort of done

00:04:01 ◼   ► subscriptions with some kind of you buy

00:04:03 ◼   ► an in-app purchase and then you buy

00:04:05 ◼   ► another one and then you buy another one

00:04:06 ◼   ► but there was certainly wouldn't have

00:04:07 ◼   ► been able to be Auto renewing so I made

00:04:09 ◼   ► it a free app and or so I made it a paid

00:04:11 ◼   ► app and I put that out in the air so I

00:04:14 ◼   ► had a whole lot of people who gave me

00:04:15 ◼   ► money

00:04:16 ◼   ► four years ago I think about a third of

00:04:18 ◼   ► the users bought it the first day you

00:04:21 ◼   ► know had a nice big

00:04:22 ◼   ► like he launched but most of you they've

00:04:24 ◼   ► never subsequently got it given me any

00:04:27 ◼   ► revenue and ongoing costs are really

00:04:31 ◼   ► rough especially when they aren't just

00:04:34 ◼   ► you know two or three Linode boxes

00:04:36 ◼   ► things like weather data and even fonts

00:04:39 ◼   ► actually like I had some custom fonts in

00:04:41 ◼   ► this application that had annual

00:04:43 ◼   ► subscriptions that I have to pay that's

00:04:45 ◼   ► the worst tell you one thing I mean like

00:04:48 ◼   ► you know server costs like you kind of

00:04:50 ◼   ► can't get around that but as somebody

00:04:52 ◼   ► who has licensed a lot of fonts for apps

00:04:55 ◼   ► over the years anything you can do to

00:04:57 ◼   ► avoid ongoing recurring costs in your

00:05:00 ◼   ► app you should do that and if you have a

00:05:02 ◼   ► fancy font you know try it try to get

00:05:04 ◼   ► one that you can license that for a flat

00:05:06 ◼   ► fee especially you know these days you

00:05:09 ◼   ► can often get decent fonts for either

00:05:11 ◼   ► free or for maybe a few hundred dollars

00:05:13 ◼   ► up front flat forever and that's if you

00:05:16 ◼   ► can do that that's great

00:05:17 ◼   ► sure because it's any of these things

00:05:20 ◼   ► like it was always a strange thing

00:05:22 ◼   ► because it forced me to every year I had

00:05:24 ◼   ► to sit down and decide do I still want

00:05:26 ◼   ► to pay for this font to this point the

00:05:28 ◼   ► opposite kind of a I followed the usual

00:05:30 ◼   ► trajectory like it had that big spike at

00:05:32 ◼   ► the beginning and then all you know kind

00:05:33 ◼   ► of felt almost nothing and it became

00:05:36 ◼   ► kind of like a charity project because

00:05:38 ◼   ► you know like I still used the app and I

00:05:40 ◼   ► mean through this week I was still using

00:05:42 ◼   ► the app but at some point I had to

00:05:44 ◼   ► decide you know did every year when I

00:05:46 ◼   ► get my email from font foundry and says

00:05:48 ◼   ► hey you know would like to charge you

00:05:50 ◼   ► another three or four hundred dollars

00:05:51 ◼   ► it's like great and every month when I

00:05:54 ◼   ► get my bills from the radar provider and

00:05:57 ◼   ► the weather data provider it's like mm

00:05:59 ◼   ► hmm you know this is fine I mean the

00:06:02 ◼   ► costs involved weren't killer at least

00:06:04 ◼   ► up until recently and that's part of why

00:06:06 ◼   ► I have to shut it down now because the

00:06:09 ◼   ► there's a change at pricing changed with

00:06:11 ◼   ► my radar provider that means that it

00:06:12 ◼   ► would just have gone from like oh it's

00:06:14 ◼   ► kind of fun it's a little charity

00:06:15 ◼   ► project to something that would have

00:06:18 ◼   ► just been kind of absurd to keep going

00:06:20 ◼   ► well I think I think ultimately the you

00:06:23 ◼   ► need to think about like you know what

00:06:25 ◼   ► and I think we'll get to this later like

00:06:26 ◼   ► what do you owe your users because in my

00:06:28 ◼   ► opinion the second you are losing money

00:06:31 ◼   ► like there is no acceptable amount of

00:06:33 ◼   ► money to be losing on and on

00:06:35 ◼   ► gong basis four and a half like to me

00:06:38 ◼   ► once you're losing money that's it it's

00:06:40 ◼   ► it's gone sure and I definitely don't

00:06:42 ◼   ► see you can see where you're coming from

00:06:43 ◼   ► like it is such a hard thing though from

00:06:46 ◼   ► the emotional perspective like what

00:06:48 ◼   ► you're saying makes total sense that you

00:06:49 ◼   ► know like if I'm running a business and

00:06:50 ◼   ► I have a division of my business that is

00:06:54 ◼   ► continue is making a loss with no

00:06:56 ◼   ► prospect of turning that around the

00:06:59 ◼   ► logical like good business move is to

00:07:02 ◼   ► just shut it down and move on but it's

00:07:06 ◼   ► hard when you kind of have something

00:07:07 ◼   ► that you feel more emotionally invested

00:07:09 ◼   ► in where it feels like oh no you know

00:07:12 ◼   ► this is like with my losses for this app

00:07:14 ◼   ► was my first big break like I want to

00:07:15 ◼   ► you know I feel sad for it to go and so

00:07:19 ◼   ► I think I definitely in this case I

00:07:21 ◼   ► probably did let it go longer than in

00:07:23 ◼   ► retrospect I should have and not

00:07:25 ◼   ► necessarily even just for the money

00:07:26 ◼   ► reasons so I think what you're saying

00:07:27 ◼   ► makes sense but even just in retrospect

00:07:29 ◼   ► as I think of the like the the burden it

00:07:33 ◼   ► places on you cognitively when you have

00:07:35 ◼   ► something that you're sort of you have

00:07:37 ◼   ► this affinity for and you're kind of

00:07:39 ◼   ► proud of but it isn't really going well

00:07:42 ◼   ► and you know every time an iOS update

00:07:44 ◼   ► comes out it's like mm should I do this

00:07:46 ◼   ► to check the weather

00:07:47 ◼   ► you know like Apple like the Apple watch

00:07:49 ◼   ► came out and I was like oh there's some

00:07:50 ◼   ► really cool things you could do for you

00:07:51 ◼   ► know weather app on the Apple watch

00:07:53 ◼   ► I was like man the app just doesn't make

00:07:55 ◼   ► money like it just really isn't getting

00:07:57 ◼   ► traction and I don't know if just

00:08:00 ◼   ► putting more effort into it

00:08:01 ◼   ► is we really going to get the outcome

00:08:02 ◼   ► but then everyone every every time

00:08:04 ◼   ► there's a big thing and have that that

00:08:06 ◼   ► sense of doubt I feel like that's the

00:08:07 ◼   ► kind of thing that honestly more than

00:08:09 ◼   ► the money is a bit better an incentive

00:08:11 ◼   ► to make sure that you know if when

00:08:13 ◼   ► something is clearly not going anywhere

00:08:15 ◼   ► that you just kind of say yep it's done

00:08:17 ◼   ► and move on anyway so that is why I have

00:08:21 ◼   ► gotten to the point that I had to pull

00:08:22 ◼   ► check the weather from the store and

00:08:25 ◼   ► it's probably worth mentioning a little

00:08:28 ◼   ► bit about kind of what that process

00:08:29 ◼   ► looks like

00:08:30 ◼   ► mechanically before we get into some of

00:08:33 ◼   ► the kind of the implications and things

00:08:35 ◼   ► that come out of that so when you decide

00:08:38 ◼   ► that you want to pull an app from the

00:08:39 ◼   ► App Store it's surprisingly easy to do

00:08:41 ◼   ► you just go into iTunes Connect you

00:08:44 ◼   ► click on the app there's no think it's

00:08:45 ◼   ► availability and pricing is the area in

00:08:47 ◼   ► the App Store that you can go into

00:08:49 ◼   ► all right in iTunes Connect that you go

00:08:50 ◼   ► to and say you know remove says you

00:08:51 ◼   ► removed from sale you used to have to go

00:08:53 ◼   ► in there and specifically select every

00:08:57 ◼   ► country that you didn't want it in until

00:08:58 ◼   ► use pet so let me select at the mall now

00:09:00 ◼   ► you can just push a button I think that

00:09:02 ◼   ► says remove some move from sale and that

00:09:05 ◼   ► worked pretty well it was gone from the

00:09:07 ◼   ► App Store and then you have the a more

00:09:10 ◼   ► interesting question perhaps of how you

00:09:12 ◼   ► communicate to your users so as most

00:09:15 ◼   ► people who download your app don't know

00:09:17 ◼   ► who you are they don't follow you on

00:09:19 ◼   ► twitter they don't read your blog and I

00:09:22 ◼   ► kind of struggled with this in this case

00:09:24 ◼   ► like I've certainly done the I have a

00:09:25 ◼   ► blog post mentioned on Twitter to kind

00:09:27 ◼   ► of put it out as best I could for most

00:09:30 ◼   ► of your users either you need to do a an

00:09:34 ◼   ► app update and just mention this in the

00:09:36 ◼   ► release notes that the app is going away

00:09:39 ◼   ► or you would probably need to have some

00:09:42 ◼   ► mechanism built into the application to

00:09:45 ◼   ► reach out to them some kind of messaging

00:09:46 ◼   ► scheme at this point the app has so few

00:09:49 ◼   ► users that I didn't decide that

00:09:50 ◼   ► something like that was worth doing of

00:09:53 ◼   ► like building a special build of the app

00:09:54 ◼   ► and putting it out there that popped up

00:09:56 ◼   ► a window that said hey your app your

00:09:58 ◼   ► data is gonna go away that's something

00:10:00 ◼   ► that you'd kind of would have to do if

00:10:01 ◼   ► you were you know if we're ever ayat e

00:10:04 ◼   ► of reasons there a variety of reasons

00:10:05 ◼   ► that you would have to turn something

00:10:06 ◼   ► off and in this case it's turning it off

00:10:09 ◼   ► because the user ship is fallen off

00:10:11 ◼   ► dramatically but I've certainly have

00:10:13 ◼   ► known have friends who ended having to

00:10:15 ◼   ► end a product in some ways because it

00:10:18 ◼   ► was too successful that it kind of had

00:10:20 ◼   ► gotten ahead of itself in terms of

00:10:21 ◼   ► usership

00:10:22 ◼   ► but didn't have a revenue model to back

00:10:24 ◼   ► it up and so a certain point they're

00:10:25 ◼   ► just like well I just have to turn it

00:10:27 ◼   ► off because the money is just kind of

00:10:29 ◼   ► running away from me so in that case you

00:10:30 ◼   ► probably have to build something into

00:10:31 ◼   ► the app to turn it off and then you need

00:10:35 ◼   ► some kind of mechanism to actually like

00:10:37 ◼   ► physically turn it off in this case

00:10:39 ◼   ► because I'm not hosting much myself

00:10:42 ◼   ► there's not like I have servers an

00:10:43 ◼   ► infrastructure that I have to physically

00:10:45 ◼   ► unwind I'm mostly I'm just stopping

00:10:48 ◼   ► paying for things and then the ultimate

00:10:51 ◼   ► providers will turn it off but it is

00:10:53 ◼   ► definitely something that I would say

00:10:55 ◼   ► that I never really thought of when I'm

00:10:57 ◼   ► you never cease e to not think about

00:10:58 ◼   ► when you're making something but that

00:11:01 ◼   ► what I would I would

00:11:02 ◼   ► she'd do if I needed to turn this off

00:11:04 ◼   ► you know like at some point if some of

00:11:06 ◼   ► my other projects that have Web Services

00:11:07 ◼   ► that I run were to go away it's kind of

00:11:10 ◼   ► a tricky question to be like well what

00:11:12 ◼   ► do I do with the data for example like

00:11:14 ◼   ► how do I safely and securely turn

00:11:16 ◼   ► everything off it's the kind of thing

00:11:19 ◼   ► where it can so easily get away from you

00:11:20 ◼   ► when you're developing like you can just

00:11:22 ◼   ► add things like oh this will be fine

00:11:23 ◼   ► this will be fine I just not even think

00:11:24 ◼   ► about like all the different services

00:11:25 ◼   ► you're starting up you know API

00:11:27 ◼   ► memberships you're sorting all the

00:11:28 ◼   ► different providers and everything and

00:11:30 ◼   ► it can get away from you pretty fast oh

00:11:31 ◼   ► sure I mean it's probably also worth

00:11:33 ◼   ► saying that a lot of these same

00:11:34 ◼   ► considerations come into play if you

00:11:36 ◼   ► ever transfer an app oh yeah so if you

00:11:38 ◼   ► ever sell an app it's something that's

00:11:40 ◼   ► probably worth it's just sort of as a as

00:11:42 ◼   ► a pro tip is keeping track in a document

00:11:44 ◼   ► or somewhere it just at a high level all

00:11:47 ◼   ► of the various things that you've ever

00:11:50 ◼   ► paid for or bought associated with the

00:11:53 ◼   ► development of an app in terms of yeah

00:11:55 ◼   ► like keeping track of like there's a

00:11:57 ◼   ► domain associated with this app you know

00:11:59 ◼   ► if you go to check the weather dock oh I

00:12:01 ◼   ► think it was like there's a domain and I

00:12:03 ◼   ► would need to remember to go and turn

00:12:05 ◼   ► off auto renew on that domain there's

00:12:08 ◼   ► all you know that were I think there's

00:12:10 ◼   ► three or four different weather data

00:12:12 ◼   ► providers that I have a created accounts

00:12:15 ◼   ► with at some point for this app and

00:12:16 ◼   ► while as you know if in some ways the

00:12:19 ◼   ► last some of them would just kind of

00:12:21 ◼   ► turn off on their own if they're

00:12:22 ◼   ► usership went to zero the reality is I

00:12:25 ◼   ► also should probably go and actually you

00:12:28 ◼   ► know terminate my account there so I'm

00:12:30 ◼   ► not don't have all of these open these

00:12:32 ◼   ► little open things in the future that

00:12:33 ◼   ► could come back and bite me in some

00:12:36 ◼   ► weird way and on the flip side on the

00:12:38 ◼   ► positives say hey the Apple had been

00:12:39 ◼   ► acquired and been shipped over to

00:12:40 ◼   ► somebody you're gonna have to be able to

00:12:42 ◼   ► give the new owner at the list of like

00:12:45 ◼   ► here's all the things that I actually

00:12:46 ◼   ► have to give you which is way more than

00:12:49 ◼   ► just the source code to the app where's

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00:13:40 ◼   ► and I've used it since the tumbler day

00:13:42 ◼   ► is very very long time it goes since

00:13:43 ◼   ► long before they were response here

00:13:44 ◼   ► before I even started podcasting at all

00:13:46 ◼   ► I've been using them for a very very

00:13:48 ◼   ► long time and I have had nothing but

00:13:50 ◼   ► great experiences with Pingdom that's

00:13:53 ◼   ► why I can personally recommend them even

00:13:54 ◼   ► they cannot pay me to say that I can

00:13:55 ◼   ► actually say that directly they are

00:13:57 ◼   ► awesome and you should be using them so

00:13:59 ◼   ► payment makes it very very easy to

00:14:00 ◼   ► monitor your sites all you need to do is

00:14:03 ◼   ► give them a URL that you want to monitor

00:14:04 ◼   ► and the various optional conditions you

00:14:06 ◼   ► want to check for and they take care of

00:14:08 ◼   ► the rest when they detect an outage you

00:14:10 ◼   ► can be immediately alerted so you can

00:14:12 ◼   ► fix the error before the downtime

00:14:14 ◼   ► affects you you don't want to be caught

00:14:16 ◼   ► with you know your site down and you

00:14:18 ◼   ► don't even knowing it and people on

00:14:20 ◼   ► Twitter telling you hey by the way you

00:14:21 ◼   ► know your site's been down for the last

00:14:22 ◼   ► couple hours no you want to be the first

00:14:24 ◼   ► person to learn and with a Pingdom you

00:14:26 ◼   ► will be the first person notified so you

00:14:27 ◼   ► can fix it before anybody else really

00:14:29 ◼   ► sees it go to Pingdom comm slash radar

00:14:32 ◼   ► for a 14-day free trial and use offer

00:14:34 ◼   ► code radar to get 20% off at checkout

00:14:37 ◼   ► thank you very much - Pingdom response

00:14:38 ◼   ► during our show so the other kind of

00:14:40 ◼   ► consideration or thing that i Eve this

00:14:42 ◼   ► is all this this process it made me

00:14:43 ◼   ► think of because it's probably only sort

00:14:45 ◼   ► of helpful to talk about the actual like

00:14:47 ◼   ► this the instances of this app but if I

00:14:49 ◼   ► take a step back and think about just in

00:14:52 ◼   ► general as I'm developing an app are

00:14:54 ◼   ► there lessons that I can learn from this

00:14:56 ◼   ► that I think would be useful going

00:14:59 ◼   ► forward and the first one that I was

00:15:01 ◼   ► trying to think of and came up with was

00:15:02 ◼   ► the importance of being careful about

00:15:05 ◼   ► what I'm communicating or promising to

00:15:09 ◼   ► my customers as I start out as I feel

00:15:14 ◼   ► like it's easy when you're starting out

00:15:15 ◼   ► and everything's kind of rosy and nice

00:15:18 ◼   ► to get a little carried away and kind of

00:15:22 ◼   ► make commitments that are down the road

00:15:24 ◼   ► going to be more difficult for you to

00:15:26 ◼   ► follow through on and you know it's a

00:15:29 ◼   ► tricky thing maybe on this case

00:15:30 ◼   ► the pricing where it's really not a

00:15:32 ◼   ► sustainable business model for an app

00:15:33 ◼   ► that has an ongoing cost to have a

00:15:35 ◼   ► one-time purchase upfront but in the

00:15:38 ◼   ► early days of the app I kind of gave the

00:15:40 ◼   ► impression whether implied or actual

00:15:42 ◼   ► enough to actually go back and look at

00:15:43 ◼   ► my communication to see what I actually

00:15:45 ◼   ► said but I kevin lee implied that you

00:15:47 ◼   ► know you buy this app and you have

00:15:49 ◼   ► weather data and there was no end date

00:15:52 ◼   ► put on that and that creates some really

00:15:55 ◼   ► awkward things that kind of kind of feel

00:15:57 ◼   ► like they tie my hands whether

00:15:59 ◼   ► necessarily or just because of the way

00:16:01 ◼   ► that i feel going forward that kind of

00:16:04 ◼   ► you know reduce my options because in

00:16:06 ◼   ► this case you know i said about a third

00:16:07 ◼   ► of the users bought it in one day so

00:16:10 ◼   ► whatever i communicated to those people

00:16:12 ◼   ► that first day when everything was

00:16:13 ◼   ► cheerful and rosy and i was so

00:16:15 ◼   ► optimistic about its future I kind of

00:16:19 ◼   ► have to live with going forward and it

00:16:21 ◼   ► definitely kind of makes me think of as

00:16:23 ◼   ► I launch things now or as I move forward

00:16:26 ◼   ► well there's also good for me to be

00:16:28 ◼   ► thinking about you know this is

00:16:29 ◼   ► sustainable and so on but it's even the

00:16:31 ◼   ► importance of being careful about what I

00:16:33 ◼   ► say that I'm not making pointers or

00:16:35 ◼   ► promises into the future it's kind of

00:16:38 ◼   ► like any time I see an accompanying that

00:16:40 ◼   ► now says something's unlimited or even

00:16:44 ◼   ► lifetime subscription or those types of

00:16:47 ◼   ► words I am immediately skeptical I

00:16:50 ◼   ► immediately think no that's you that

00:16:52 ◼   ► can't be right

00:16:54 ◼   ► you know you can't use those words with

00:16:56 ◼   ► actual honesty because you can't give

00:16:59 ◼   ► someone an unlimited something or a

00:17:01 ◼   ► lifetime of something because you're

00:17:03 ◼   ► making promises into the future that you

00:17:05 ◼   ► really can't stand behind and that's

00:17:08 ◼   ► probably a dangerous thing for me you

00:17:10 ◼   ► know for especially a small developer to

00:17:11 ◼   ► ever do well especially goes like when

00:17:13 ◼   ► you're when you have a paid upfront app

00:17:14 ◼   ► or you know any kind of and Wow however

00:17:16 ◼   ► people are paying for it if somebody

00:17:17 ◼   ► pays for your app there many people

00:17:20 ◼   ► maybe I don't even meet maybe even most

00:17:22 ◼   ► people have this expectation at the

00:17:24 ◼   ► moment of payment that I am paying for

00:17:26 ◼   ► this app for it to work forever and of

00:17:28 ◼   ► course in reality that's you know that's

00:17:30 ◼   ► not how anything in this industry works

00:17:32 ◼   ► but that is kind of like the mindset and

00:17:34 ◼   ► that's why people get so upset when an

00:17:37 ◼   ► app that they paid for two years ago all

00:17:39 ◼   ► of a sudden gets discontinued or

00:17:42 ◼   ► requires a paid upgrade to keep working

00:17:44 ◼   ► on

00:17:44 ◼   ► the newest whatever's you know people

00:17:46 ◼   ► they when they pay upfront as something

00:17:49 ◼   ► that's presented as a one-time fee they

00:17:51 ◼   ► really do assume even if it's

00:17:54 ◼   ► subconscious

00:17:55 ◼   ► they see that purchase as a lifetime

00:17:58 ◼   ► purchase when in fact that is impossible

00:18:00 ◼   ► to sustain I mean you know people

00:18:02 ◼   ► basically software needs ongoing revenue

00:18:06 ◼   ► streams because people expect ongoing

00:18:10 ◼   ► updates ongoing service ongoing

00:18:13 ◼   ► compatibility fixes and even ongoing

00:18:15 ◼   ► improvements and yet they pay once

00:18:18 ◼   ► upfront and and they and they expect all

00:18:20 ◼   ► those things to come for free forever so

00:18:22 ◼   ► like some kind of recurring subscription

00:18:24 ◼   ► or recurring revenue model but you know

00:18:26 ◼   ► whether its description or ads or other

00:18:27 ◼   ► other things the reason why this is so

00:18:30 ◼   ► helpful is because like that matches up

00:18:31 ◼   ► more to people's expectations of what

00:18:33 ◼   ► the product will do for them and how the

00:18:34 ◼   ► product will keep moving but you have

00:18:36 ◼   ► something like you had to check the

00:18:37 ◼   ► weather because it was about like three

00:18:38 ◼   ► or four bucks up front I think it was

00:18:40 ◼   ► yeah yeah so it was like you know

00:18:42 ◼   ► whatever it is three or four bucks up

00:18:42 ◼   ► front then you know people who pay three

00:18:45 ◼   ► or four bucks two three years ago you

00:18:47 ◼   ► know they're gonna expect that app to

00:18:49 ◼   ► still be working now if they're still

00:18:50 ◼   ► using it and you're going to get some

00:18:52 ◼   ► people who are very upset about this

00:18:54 ◼   ► discontinuation but I don't really see

00:18:56 ◼   ► how you could have kept it going

00:18:58 ◼   ► otherwise I mean if you had I mean we

00:19:01 ◼   ► could talk about different business

00:19:01 ◼   ► models and stuff but you know if it was

00:19:03 ◼   ► subscription funded from the very

00:19:05 ◼   ► beginning that would be another thing if

00:19:06 ◼   ► it were ad funded then you know it would

00:19:09 ◼   ► it would just kind of keep making money

00:19:11 ◼   ► through usage hopefully enough to cover

00:19:13 ◼   ► it but that's not even a guarantee and

00:19:16 ◼   ► you know so if there was ongoing revenue

00:19:18 ◼   ► you could you could possibly sustain it

00:19:20 ◼   ► more but people really do you know when

00:19:23 ◼   ► it comes to you know you know geeks like

00:19:25 ◼   ► us know to to doubt claims of unlimited

00:19:28 ◼   ► or a lifetime but when you have paid

00:19:31 ◼   ► upfront that is literally what people

00:19:32 ◼   ► expect they expect it to be a lifetime

00:19:34 ◼   ► purchase even though they might not care

00:19:36 ◼   ► in a year or two but the ones who still

00:19:39 ◼   ► use it they will care sure and I think

00:19:42 ◼   ► beyond even just the consideration of

00:19:44 ◼   ► like what's the best business model and

00:19:46 ◼   ► obviously like in retrospect I think of

00:19:48 ◼   ► myself four years ago being very naive

00:19:50 ◼   ► that this kind of would have worked

00:19:53 ◼   ► and I think the important thing there is

00:19:55 ◼   ► - it's a to think it through but like I

00:19:58 ◼   ► got so caught up in the actual process

00:20:00 ◼   ► of building it and thinking that it was

00:20:01 ◼   ► cool I don't think I thought four years

00:20:04 ◼   ► into the future about what would happen

00:20:06 ◼   ► and then me even if you don't have a

00:20:09 ◼   ► good alternative for the business model

00:20:11 ◼   ► like even if I'd still launched the app

00:20:12 ◼   ► you know paid up front app I likely

00:20:14 ◼   ► should have given some thought to how I

00:20:19 ◼   ► talked about it and how kind of the

00:20:21 ◼   ► expectations that I said yeah maybe I

00:20:22 ◼   ► should have said you know the app

00:20:24 ◼   ► includes weather data for two years and

00:20:26 ◼   ► maybe I don't have a good answer for

00:20:27 ◼   ► what happens in two years but they're

00:20:31 ◼   ► sort of the expectation that maybe down

00:20:33 ◼   ► the road there will be some more money

00:20:34 ◼   ► that you'll have to pay pay for me to

00:20:36 ◼   ► keep doing it and communicating that

00:20:38 ◼   ► rather than kind of if you don't say

00:20:40 ◼   ► anything like you're saying the

00:20:43 ◼   ► customers expectation is that it's like

00:20:45 ◼   ► well I make one payment and then it's

00:20:46 ◼   ► the rest of my life for as long as I

00:20:48 ◼   ► want to use it you know I will be

00:20:49 ◼   ► sitting there ready for them to help

00:20:51 ◼   ► them as however that goes well and for a

00:20:54 ◼   ► while that actually works for a lot of

00:20:57 ◼   ► apps like especially in the earlier days

00:20:58 ◼   ► of the apps were like four years ago and

00:21:00 ◼   ► you long says that was a totally

00:21:01 ◼   ► reasonable thing to do like when I

00:21:02 ◼   ► launched instapaper and you know day one

00:21:04 ◼   ► be Happ store in 2008 well it was more

00:21:07 ◼   ► like day 3 whatever doesn't hate it was

00:21:11 ◼   ► just an upfront paid app it was first 10

00:21:14 ◼   ► bucks then about a year later lowered it

00:21:16 ◼   ► to 5 bucks and stay that way for a long

00:21:18 ◼   ► time and the idea you know I was running

00:21:20 ◼   ► this big expensive web service behind it

00:21:22 ◼   ► but every month I just kept selling more

00:21:24 ◼   ► copies of the app and so the growth was

00:21:27 ◼   ► just funding it like just the additional

00:21:29 ◼   ► new copies that were selling every month

00:21:31 ◼   ► wasn't you know that was enough to fund

00:21:33 ◼   ► the app and overcast first year I did

00:21:35 ◼   ► the same thing with you know with with

00:21:37 ◼   ► the five dollar one-time on and I

00:21:38 ◼   ► purchased to unlock the the you know the

00:21:40 ◼   ► good features the same thing and it

00:21:42 ◼   ► worked fine for a little while but as

00:21:45 ◼   ► the App Store has gone on that that

00:21:47 ◼   ► incredible growth that we had in the

00:21:48 ◼   ► earlier years is harder and harder to

00:21:51 ◼   ► come by and the money you're getting

00:21:53 ◼   ► from each person is like is often going

00:21:55 ◼   ► down as we've had to you know lower

00:21:57 ◼   ► prices to be more competitive in the

00:21:58 ◼   ► market and so now you you really have to

00:22:02 ◼   ► think from the beginning how am I going

00:22:04 ◼   ► to get ongoing revenue from this whereas

00:22:06 ◼   ► even

00:22:06 ◼   ► as recent as four years ago when you

00:22:09 ◼   ► launched this we really didn't have to

00:22:10 ◼   ► think about that it wasn't you being

00:22:11 ◼   ► naive it was actually the conditions of

00:22:13 ◼   ► the market at the time you could just

00:22:16 ◼   ► fund an app entirely by its own growth

00:22:18 ◼   ► sure and you know it's how the good old

00:22:22 ◼   ► days but I mean never nevertheless like

00:22:24 ◼   ► the reality is it's something that I

00:22:26 ◼   ► mentioned here as a cautionary tale both

00:22:29 ◼   ► for myself and others that if you don't

00:22:32 ◼   ► think about this upfront eventually

00:22:35 ◼   ► you're going to have to deal with it I

00:22:37 ◼   ► mean it reminds me in a weird way of

00:22:38 ◼   ► like contract negotiation where I

00:22:40 ◼   ► remember getting the best advice I've

00:22:42 ◼   ► sung to a guy who was well he was my

00:22:43 ◼   ► lawyer but in this case he wasn't acting

00:22:45 ◼   ► as my lawyer because he's you know a

00:22:46 ◼   ► lawyer he was telling me like the reason

00:22:48 ◼   ► he likes doing contracts for developers

00:22:52 ◼   ► is his job he felt was to think through

00:22:56 ◼   ► all of the worst-case scenarios for them

00:22:59 ◼   ► that they don't want to think about that

00:23:01 ◼   ► they're sitting down with the client and

00:23:02 ◼   ► they're super excited like it's the

00:23:05 ◼   ► first big client they've ever gotten or

00:23:07 ◼   ► whatever and they're really excited

00:23:08 ◼   ► about it and they can talk about all the

00:23:10 ◼   ► fun things they're gonna do and the

00:23:11 ◼   ► awesome work they're gonna you know be

00:23:12 ◼   ► able to do and collaborate together and

00:23:15 ◼   ► you just don't think about these things

00:23:17 ◼   ► that what do we do do you know in in the

00:23:20 ◼   ► sense of a contract like what happens to

00:23:22 ◼   ► the code at the end of this project what

00:23:23 ◼   ► happens if you're sick and unable to

00:23:25 ◼   ► continue working what happens if you

00:23:28 ◼   ► just have massive disagreements and

00:23:30 ◼   ► don't get along like those kinds of

00:23:32 ◼   ► contingencies those kinds of things that

00:23:34 ◼   ► are you hope you never really hope for

00:23:36 ◼   ► you just hope it is always going to be

00:23:38 ◼   ► the best case you know in this case with

00:23:39 ◼   ► check the mother if the sales had just

00:23:40 ◼   ► kept going forever it would the Apple

00:23:43 ◼   ► just keep going forever but if you force

00:23:45 ◼   ► yourself to think about the weird

00:23:47 ◼   ► not-so-great things up front you can

00:23:51 ◼   ► just plan for them or at least have some

00:23:52 ◼   ► sense of what you might do and it

00:23:55 ◼   ► probably would have helped in this case

00:23:56 ◼   ► would have helped me avoid kind of it

00:23:58 ◼   ► feels a bit awkward and it feels a bit

00:24:00 ◼   ► more like I'm letting people down and

00:24:02 ◼   ► generally people have been really

00:24:03 ◼   ► gracious about it I think the nice thing

00:24:04 ◼   ► about a third of the users buying it in

00:24:06 ◼   ► the first day and probably about half of

00:24:09 ◼   ► the users buying it in the first month

00:24:11 ◼   ► is that that was all four years ago and

00:24:13 ◼   ► so I think they've stopped using the app

00:24:15 ◼   ► or if they have used it they've been

00:24:16 ◼   ► using it for four years and paying you

00:24:18 ◼   ► know less than a dollar a year is

00:24:20 ◼   ► some reasonable to them but if anything

00:24:23 ◼   ► it's just the cautionary tale of think

00:24:25 ◼   ► about these things think about what's

00:24:27 ◼   ► what this would look like down the road

00:24:28 ◼   ► and have if not a plan in specifics at

00:24:31 ◼   ► least a plan in general for how you're

00:24:33 ◼   ► gonna deal with it the other thing that

00:24:36 ◼   ► I've kind of been running into as I've

00:24:38 ◼   ► been unraveling it that it's kind of a

00:24:39 ◼   ► lesson that that would be worth talking

00:24:42 ◼   ► about is as much as I feel like I think

00:24:45 ◼   ► of the AppStore and the way people use

00:24:47 ◼   ► my app as only ever using the latest app

00:24:50 ◼   ► on the latest version of the OS which is

00:24:53 ◼   ► in general like surprisingly true as

00:24:56 ◼   ► I've been kind of unwinding this app and

00:24:59 ◼   ► working out what I need to turn off I

00:25:00 ◼   ► always went back and looked at old users

00:25:04 ◼   ► of the application and this is where

00:25:05 ◼   ► things get funny and why like I've

00:25:07 ◼   ► changed data providers for example and

00:25:09 ◼   ► I'm not sure and I need to make sure

00:25:12 ◼   ► that I go and turn off those first

00:25:13 ◼   ► accounts that I used to get weather data

00:25:15 ◼   ► from because people are still using the

00:25:17 ◼   ► app that hasn't you know really really

00:25:20 ◼   ► really old versions like I went and

00:25:22 ◼   ► looked in my analytics and I have people

00:25:23 ◼   ► who are using the app that was published

00:25:25 ◼   ► in 2013 still like as of a couple of

00:25:30 ◼   ► days ago I was you know still having

00:25:32 ◼   ► people who are using like hitting my

00:25:33 ◼   ► server hitting my web services with that

00:25:36 ◼   ► you know with that version string is

00:25:37 ◼   ► this like from people who using really

00:25:39 ◼   ► old iOS versions yes

00:25:41 ◼   ► it's usually it's if that's that is

00:25:43 ◼   ► usually the situation that it's like

00:25:44 ◼   ► somebody has an old iPod Touch or a an

00:25:49 ◼   ► old iPhone that can't be upgraded beyond

00:25:51 ◼   ► a certain point and I think like the

00:25:53 ◼   ► version they were using there was like

00:25:55 ◼   ► it's the last version that worked with

00:25:57 ◼   ► iOS 6 or with iOS 5 even like I mean

00:25:59 ◼   ► it's getting really far back in time and

00:26:03 ◼   ► so they're just stuck using that version

00:26:04 ◼   ► and if they're still using it

00:26:06 ◼   ► like in some ways you know good for them

00:26:07 ◼   ► that's that's fine but in yeah I usually

00:26:11 ◼   ► don't worry about those people in terms

00:26:13 ◼   ► of new development but when you turn

00:26:14 ◼   ► things off it is definitely something

00:26:17 ◼   ► that I felt like I have to think through

00:26:19 ◼   ► now is are there any things that old old

00:26:23 ◼   ► versions of the app do that I need to

00:26:26 ◼   ► think about now and in a weird way it

00:26:30 ◼   ► gives me thought to being careful

00:26:33 ◼   ► being thoughtful as I develop about what

00:26:35 ◼   ► I wear I put things in the app and

00:26:37 ◼   ► reminds me there's like physical feature

00:26:38 ◼   ► there's a mechanism in check the weather

00:26:40 ◼   ► to dynamically change some of the API

00:26:45 ◼   ► keys inside of the application so that

00:26:48 ◼   ► if I you know had a problem with where

00:26:50 ◼   ► the weather provider I could some in

00:26:52 ◼   ► some ways kind of switch things around

00:26:54 ◼   ► dynamically and it does that you know

00:26:56 ◼   ► through a web service and I'm glad it

00:26:59 ◼   ► I've definitely used that a few times

00:27:00 ◼   ► and especially for this is a good

00:27:02 ◼   ► reminder for me of building mechanisms

00:27:05 ◼   ► like that into our apps is probably a

00:27:06 ◼   ► good idea to at least to some degree

00:27:08 ◼   ► because you can't always rely on the App

00:27:12 ◼   ► Store updates being the way you change

00:27:14 ◼   ► that you know if something breaks I have

00:27:15 ◼   ► to go and submit it and even though app

00:27:17 ◼   ► review is amazing like recently I had an

00:27:19 ◼   ► up I had an update yesterday where I

00:27:21 ◼   ► submitted it in the morning in about

00:27:23 ◼   ► three hours later it was approved which

00:27:24 ◼   ► is crazy and awesome but that's only

00:27:27 ◼   ► ever gonna capture like 90 percent of

00:27:29 ◼   ► users and so at least give some thought

00:27:31 ◼   ► to what happens that ten percent of

00:27:33 ◼   ► users yeah it's also really nice to have

00:27:35 ◼   ► from day one a mechanism server-side to

00:27:38 ◼   ► to show a a message like show an alert

00:27:41 ◼   ► box to everybody with with server-side

00:27:43 ◼   ► provide a text I'm and you could have it

00:27:45 ◼   ► be like you know every time or just a

00:27:47 ◼   ► one time showing but somehow have

00:27:49 ◼   ► something in the in there in your apps

00:27:51 ◼   ► so that you could you know you know at

00:27:53 ◼   ► this point rather than have it you know

00:27:54 ◼   ► once everything shuts down rather than

00:27:56 ◼   ► the app just launching and erroring out

00:27:58 ◼   ► with some kind of server error that it

00:28:00 ◼   ► like you know and no internet connection

00:28:01 ◼   ► anything that's like that's not really

00:28:02 ◼   ► right you know then to have to have a

00:28:05 ◼   ► different method where you couldn't you

00:28:07 ◼   ► can like put a file and s3 somewhere

00:28:08 ◼   ► that basically that the app checks and

00:28:10 ◼   ► says are and then you can show a box

00:28:11 ◼   ► that says like sorry we've had to shut

00:28:13 ◼   ► down this app because of what blah blah

00:28:14 ◼   ► blah you know it's something that I have

00:28:17 ◼   ► occasionally built into my apps and I've

00:28:19 ◼   ► been very thankful every time I have I

00:28:21 ◼   ► think the last thing is the thought I

00:28:22 ◼   ► have is the as I finish up this app it's

00:28:26 ◼   ► a weird thing because I still have ideas

00:28:30 ◼   ► for what a cool weather app could be and

00:28:32 ◼   ► do and I had to go navigate a little bit

00:28:36 ◼   ► the thought of if I made another one

00:28:37 ◼   ► would it make people mad or feel like

00:28:39 ◼   ► they've I've cheated them out of

00:28:41 ◼   ► something or I should have just put that

00:28:42 ◼   ► into the app that they've already paid

00:28:43 ◼   ► for

00:28:44 ◼   ► but obviously the reality is and this is

00:28:46 ◼   ► the sort of the end of the

00:28:47 ◼   ► that I came to is you know if I decide

00:28:51 ◼   ► to make a weather app again it'll just

00:28:54 ◼   ► be a new thing and hopefully I may if

00:28:55 ◼   ► the reality is I just need to take the

00:28:57 ◼   ► lessons I learned from this put it into

00:28:59 ◼   ► it you know and that will be okay and

00:29:02 ◼   ► it's being careful of not making choices

00:29:06 ◼   ► just to avoid people being mad at you

00:29:08 ◼   ► because people are always gonna be mad

00:29:10 ◼   ► at you for something yeah and so in this

00:29:13 ◼   ► case I was having thought like you know

00:29:14 ◼   ► I don't know why I was part of why I

00:29:16 ◼   ► didn't pull check the weather is that at

00:29:18 ◼   ► some point I've always thought maybe a

00:29:19 ◼   ► you know I have these cool ideas for

00:29:21 ◼   ► weather app maybe I'll put them in to

00:29:22 ◼   ► check the weather and then I sort of

00:29:24 ◼   ► keep it around just to avoid people

00:29:26 ◼   ► being mad the reality is if I have those

00:29:28 ◼   ► ideas and I did some point down the road

00:29:30 ◼   ► I want to do it I should just do it and

00:29:32 ◼   ► if people are mad they're mad but I

00:29:34 ◼   ► won't be I'll be happy and I'll be glad

00:29:35 ◼   ► and I'll be making something that I'm

00:29:37 ◼   ► excited about and so that's just still

00:29:40 ◼   ► an encouraging thought that I get gave

00:29:42 ◼   ► myself this thing of this week is I went

00:29:44 ◼   ► in and had to hit the button to say you

00:29:46 ◼   ► know it's it's it's finally time to put

00:29:48 ◼   ► this to bed next time use a free font

00:29:50 ◼   ► there you go alright thanks for

00:29:52 ◼   ► listening everybody and we'll talk to

00:29:53 ◼   ► you next week

00:29:54 ◼   ► bye