0:00:00welcome to under the radar a show about
0:00:02independent iOS app development I'm
0:00:04Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
0:00:06the radar is never longer than 30
0:00:08minutes so let's get started so today we
0:00:12wanted to talk again about the App Store
0:00:15and about how at the App Store is
0:00:17changing over time and especially around
0:00:20this time when iOS 10 is coming out and
0:00:22things are changing and especially this
0:00:24year where it seems like for the first
0:00:26time we're having all this change and I
0:00:29don't like tumult in the App Store where
0:00:31we're getting subscription of my model
0:00:33of changing their search ads coming
0:00:35they're purging old ad apps from the App
0:00:38Store they're changing app review review
0:00:40timing all kinds of things are changing
0:00:41in the App Store and all that change
0:00:44recently made me take a look back and do
0:00:48what I like I love doing most which is
0:00:50making a chart of course any time I kind
0:00:53of feel nostalgic or curious
0:00:55I'll try and make it to make a chart out
0:00:57of that and so what happened I did and
0:00:58this is a lot of we're gonna start
0:01:00talking about it's an article I wrote
0:01:01called evolving apps for business models
0:01:03which I'll have the link to in the show
0:01:05notes a lot of these things I feel are
0:01:07so easy to get stuck on like the way you
0:01:10feel now and these slow gradual changes
0:01:14are hard to really pin down for like
0:01:16what's actually been happening in the
0:01:17App Store because you know it's been
0:01:19quite a while since I've been it I
0:01:21submitted my first app I think my first
0:01:23app I submitted almost eight years ago
0:01:25and a lots changed since then
0:01:28and the interesting thing that I found
0:01:30is when I went back to my all like my
0:01:32app store sales data as far back as I
0:01:34had kept it and honestly I really wish I
0:01:36had my data all the way back to eight
0:01:39years ago but I just don't like I
0:01:41consolidated into a new like reporting
0:01:44system only like three or four years ago
0:01:46and certainly have dated back to then
0:01:47but then nevertheless you should release
0:01:49that oh it's awful it is it is one of
0:01:53those classic projects which I'm sure
0:01:54any developer can appreciate where it is
0:01:56it is designed to work for nobody but me
0:01:58like it like I do weird things it's a it
0:02:03makes no sense to anybody but me but for
0:02:05me it's perfect and like I have to run
0:02:07like these six scripts to get all the
0:02:09data in and the way I like it but it
0:02:11works for me so I would not recommend
0:02:13if you'd looking if you're looking for a
0:02:15sales and reporting system I'm sure
0:02:17there are many great hosted providers to
0:02:19do what you want to do don't roll your
0:02:21own I can tell you it's terrible but if
0:02:25you have this data you can go back and
0:02:27look at it
0:02:28the most striking chart and I think the
0:02:30thing that is most strongly drawn
0:02:32attention to this article was I did a
0:02:34chart of the percent of my revenue from
0:02:37three different sources from an I
0:02:38purchase from paid sales and from
0:02:40advertising and the truly remarkable
0:02:43thing from that graph is the way that
0:02:46advertising has just been steadily
0:02:49clawing away at paid sales over the last
0:02:52four years to such a in such a linear
0:02:55and clear way that when I first saw it I
0:02:58was like wow like my date is broken like
0:02:59there's no way there's this linear of a
0:03:01progression like I'm doing something
0:03:02wrong in my analysis but turns out check
0:03:05the data this is what it is like I went
0:03:07from a period in the beginning of 2012
0:03:09where only about 10% of my revenue
0:03:12kimkim advertising and now it's getting
0:03:15close to about 80% now my revenue comes
0:03:17from advertising and interestingly over
0:03:20that period in our purchased in revenue
0:03:22has remained almost they almost constant
0:03:25like not quite it's certainly gone up
0:03:26and down but roughly it's been hovering
0:03:29around 15 to 20 percent of my revenue
0:03:31and that's kind of fascinating to me
0:03:34because it shows how in sort of stark
0:03:37numbers how the App Store has been
0:03:39changing in a way that I kind of feel
0:03:42that this has been changing you know
0:03:43it's kind of the old thing we've talked
0:03:45about for so long about the race to the
0:03:47bottom about lack of trials or the death
0:03:52of a paid model or repeat the devaluing
0:03:54of software like all these things that
0:03:55you could kind of the things that we
0:03:57talked about a software developers I
0:03:58always find it reassuring where rather
0:04:00than just kind of like wishy-washy
0:04:01talking about things to actually look at
0:04:03the numbers and say like is that
0:04:04actually true and yeah like as somebody
0:04:07who has been doing this full-time who's
0:04:09been doing it with a lot of apps who's
0:04:10been doing it probably more more
0:04:12importantly who's tried about every
0:04:15business model you can think of the ones
0:04:17that have worked over time has changed
0:04:19and the business model now that seems
0:04:22most reliable for me is advertising and
0:04:24paid sales are now
0:04:26vanishingly small percentage of my SAP
0:04:28and even more crazies when I look at the
0:04:30chart you can see part of what makes a
0:04:31paid sales so terrible because there's
0:04:35these massive spikes where I launched a
0:04:36new out big spike in paid sales and then
0:04:38it just falls off again and that more
0:04:41than anything else the thing that I you
0:04:42know really don't like about paid sales
0:04:44and how just volatile that is when
0:04:46you're trying to make a living from it
0:04:47yeah I mean we've all I mean anybody
0:04:49who's ever had a paid app in the store
0:04:51has seen this exact same pattern before
0:04:54of like you know if you're lucky you
0:04:56have the launch where you have a decent
0:04:58spike and then no matter what no matter
0:05:00how lucky you were at launch it just
0:05:02drops off after a few days probably at
0:05:05most and starts to level off into you
0:05:08know basically a slowly declining
0:05:10plateau after the Hat of sadness and and
0:05:14uncertainty and what I found is that
0:05:17every time you know if I have a paid app
0:05:19suppose suppose I do like a 2.0 or 3.0
0:05:21like a major update even if they get a
0:05:24lot of press I might get spikes on that
0:05:27day but it's never as high as the
0:05:29initial launch spike and you know and
0:05:32like every every spike you have
0:05:34subsequent to an app's launch is usually
0:05:36smaller than the one before it
0:05:38to the point where now like even makes
0:05:40your holidays don't really impact me at
0:05:41all like used to be like Christmas used
0:05:43to be a major sales day and and now like
0:05:45paid apps don't even do that well it's
0:05:47it's it's kind of sad really but I guess
0:05:50it does you know as you're saying here
0:05:52it really does reflect the the reality
0:05:54of what people are doing a regardless of
0:05:55how we think things should be or how we
0:05:58wish things would be this shows you know
0:06:01what people are actually doing how
0:06:03people are choosing to spend money or
0:06:05not spend money in the App Store I think
0:06:06is very clear here yeah and I think it
0:06:09speaks to you also how I look at this
0:06:12graph and I think to myself how I glad I
0:06:14am that I've been willing to experiment
0:06:17a lot because the thing that I I think
0:06:21is most dangerous in the App Store is
0:06:23not being flexible and not trying new
0:06:26things and try not moving around because
0:06:28they've definitely been times as I've
0:06:30gone through this we're like oh my god I
0:06:33really want to do that do I not want to
0:06:34do that dwell and it's interesting to
0:06:38see so clearly that if I had
0:06:39and if I'd been stuck on one model if
0:06:41I'd said like no this is how I'm gonna
0:06:43do sell my software you know it just
0:06:45wouldn't have worked like if my revenue
0:06:46was just my paid sales number for
0:06:49example like if that's what I'd stuck to
0:06:51and committed to you know I would be
0:06:53consulted at this point almost certainly
0:06:55I would or I'd be working you know a
0:06:57nine-to-five job somewhere like there
0:06:59just is there it would I would not be
0:07:00able to live on that near diminishing Li
0:07:03small part of the pie now and so by
0:07:07being a little bit flexible on that it's
0:07:10you know reassuring that like that was
0:07:12the right choice because at the end what
0:07:14I wanted was to be an independent to be
0:07:16able to make you know make that software
0:07:17I want to make and then make a living
0:07:19from it and to do that it's like this is
0:07:22this is what this is what that takes and
0:07:24this is what that looks like now I
0:07:25suppose yeah I mean you know if you look
0:07:28at your graph the one that's not like a
0:07:30hundred percent graph but the one that's
0:07:32just like a pure spiky graph it's it's
0:07:34interesting to note that like you
0:07:35basically are making a pretty similar
0:07:38salary steadily since about 2013 and if
0:07:42you subtract the advertising from that
0:07:44you see what I think most developers
0:07:46have seen since 2013 which is a slowly
0:07:48declining curve and and a lot of sadness
0:07:52as things decline and seemingly can't
0:07:53get back up so really which were you
0:07:57know I think which we're gonna talk a
0:07:58little more about it seems like
0:08:00advertising is kind of not maybe not
0:08:02saved you but certainly has been a
0:08:05massive part of your success over the
0:08:07last few years and it seems like that is
0:08:10the kind of the missing part that a lot
0:08:12of us Indies have not had over the last
0:08:14few years to keep it steady you know
0:08:16instead we only have those paid sale and
0:08:19maybe if we're lucky in our purchase
0:08:20sales like what you have but they have
0:08:23about the same shape that your graph has
0:08:24which is everything's getting harder and
0:08:26harder and harder and money's just
0:08:28getting lower and lower over time and
0:08:32the willingness to experiment is
0:08:34literally what's making your business
0:08:36now because you know you can experiment
0:08:38with different apps but if everyone
0:08:40experiments with different apps but only
0:08:42one or two payment models you're missing
0:08:45out and part of the experimentation like
0:08:47you know in this in your case
0:08:48experimenting with ads and various and I
0:08:51purchase schemes has really helped you
0:08:53a bit over anybody who just tried to
0:08:55sell an app for a few bucks and hope
0:08:56that it works because that can work but
0:08:59it's certainly a lot harder to make that
0:09:01work and I think over time it's working
0:09:02less yeah I think it speaks to also
0:09:05something that I've found that's like an
0:09:08unintended benefit of advertising for me
0:09:10is the reliability of the income that it
0:09:14gives and that's certainly not to say
0:09:15that it's always been this like it's not
0:09:17the same day-to-day and advertising is
0:09:19notorious for especially the first day
0:09:22of a new financial quarter and
0:09:24especially the first day of a new year
0:09:25falling off cliffs because everyone's ad
0:09:29budgets kind of a big a you know they
0:09:31spend them up and then you get to the
0:09:32end of the month day and if a quarter
0:09:34and they're like oh no we got all this
0:09:35money let's just spend it and your rates
0:09:36go up nicely and then the first you know
0:09:38like you get you hit that January
0:09:40February March and then all of a sudden
0:09:42like if they just falls off so it's not
0:09:44like it's completely reliable and once
0:09:45you've been through one of those crazy
0:09:46cliffs once or twice you kind of know
0:09:48what you're looking for looking at but I
0:09:50find fascinating is on a day to day
0:09:52basis these my sales income from paid
0:09:55things where I'm relying on somebody to
0:09:57open their wallet and hand me and me $2
0:10:00the variability I found between that is
0:10:03is it always been way higher than from
0:10:06advertising base and I think it's
0:10:07largely because advertising is
0:10:09functionally a measure it's like this
0:10:11rough measure of the engagement of users
0:10:15in my application you know how many
0:10:16times they're opening it how long
0:10:17they're opening it like it's that
0:10:19overall usage number and the that number
0:10:24is very stable to a certain point that
0:10:27you know you hope you had your app has a
0:10:30I guess it brings on more users than it
0:10:34loses as you go you know suit that you
0:10:38want you need those downloads at the
0:10:39beginning and then you have some kind of
0:10:40retention over time that you know some
0:10:42people will stop using your app and then
0:10:44they're replaced hopefully by new people
0:10:46and if that number is gradually working
0:10:48its way up in order for your income to
0:10:50go down like obviously the rates can
0:10:52drop which sometimes happens but usually
0:10:54they're fairly stable and so as a result
0:10:55your income just becomes fairly flat
0:10:59because it's only increasing or
0:11:02decreasing by the very slow adjustments
0:11:05from the amount of new users you get
0:11:07in the numbered users that you're losing
0:11:09and so if you have a big spike in new
0:11:12users it's like yay that won't actually
0:11:14make a big difference to your revenue
0:11:16that day though it's like it that read
0:11:18that ripped that spike gets averaged out
0:11:20over the next you know a few months as
0:11:22your daily active sessions or whatever
0:11:26the right measure would be slowly works
0:11:28its way up and you know say you make a
0:11:30change and people don't like it and they
0:11:32leave the app it's like that'll likely
0:11:34I'll be offset and the same thing like
0:11:36that that it's a gradual decline and
0:11:39that as a develop as an independent as
0:11:41somebody who makes you like who pays my
0:11:43mortgage with my app revenue that is so
0:11:47reassuring that if this feeling that I
0:11:49don't have to check my sales report
0:11:51every day and worry that you know it's
0:11:54like it is has this been a good weekend
0:11:56has this like for a while had apps that
0:11:58would do really well on Sundays and you
0:12:01know I'd have a sometimes I'd have a
0:12:02Sunday where it's something like my
0:12:04sales just wouldn't be what they were
0:12:05and it's like whoa like there goes 15%
0:12:08of my weekly revenue because it was a
0:12:11holiday or because there was an issue on
0:12:14the app store and payments weren't
0:12:15processing for a few hours which is
0:12:17something that's happened before and you
0:12:19look at those whoa this is really scary
0:12:21at least with advertising and that kind
0:12:23of a model and you'd say in some ways
0:12:25subscriptions have a similar kind of
0:12:26feel to them but it's lovely to have the
0:12:29sense of these slow and slow increases
0:12:32and slow decreases over time rather than
0:12:34these huge spikes that are up and down
0:12:36which are just so stressful our sponsor
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0:13:19I've used them for a very long time now
0:13:20and one of the things that they just
0:13:22mentioned here in the script they're
0:13:23resizing I had to do that recently and I
0:13:26thought for sure I mean as an old
0:13:29computer user I thought there is no
0:13:31chance resizing a disk partition is
0:13:33going to work it's just there's no
0:13:35chance for that so I tried it first on a
0:13:37server that didn't matter very much and
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0:14:01databases now and it worked perfectly
0:14:04every time
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0:14:47off thank you very much to Linode for
0:14:49supporting this show all right so we've
0:14:51been talking about ads and your
0:14:54transition to a diversified income
0:14:56stream that includes ads in your apps
0:14:58and this got me thinking a while back
0:15:02you know maybe I should try ads in
0:15:05overcast because the problem I was
0:15:08facing so I wrote this big blog post
0:15:11kind of explaining all this in more
0:15:12detail but overcast has had you know
0:15:16three business models now though the
0:15:18first year roughly it was you know I
0:15:21always wanted to be free upfront because
0:15:23I have a lot of reasons why I want this
0:15:26why basically market share is more
0:15:28important to me than total revenue for
0:15:30this app I really want max
0:15:32market share and I'll try to get enough
0:15:34revenue somehow once I have that so I
0:15:36have the very first year I have you know
0:15:39free upfront and you get some of the
0:15:41features but you don't really get the
0:15:43best features things like smart speed
0:15:45and voice boost and like full playlists
0:15:47and everything like it was pretty
0:15:48limited and it was really annoying with
0:15:50with like how much in the app it was
0:15:51limited it basically it was not a very
0:15:54good app in this limited state and yet
0:15:57the vast majority of my users were using
0:15:59it in that state because most people
0:16:01didn't buy the one-time $5 an app
0:16:03purchase to unlock the cool stuff so
0:16:07trying to combat that problem about a
0:16:09year ago I switched to every feature was
0:16:12free and you just pay me what you want
0:16:15basically I did a monthly subscription a
0:16:19dollar a month and you could buy it
0:16:20ahead as long as you wanted it was not
0:16:22renewing it was the you know the old
0:16:23kind of solution where it doesn't auto
0:16:25renew so you basically just you know buy
0:16:27it for five years if you wanted to give
0:16:28me a bunch of money or just buy it for
0:16:29three months if you wanted to try it out
0:16:31but you didn't get anything for that and
0:16:33I was kind of banking on people's
0:16:35goodwill and it did work just not enough
0:16:38it it did work enough to get me a little
0:16:42over like I think just about one and a
0:16:45half percent or so or two percent
0:16:47roughly of of users to actually pay and
0:16:51subscribe but that was not really enough
0:16:54to really bring in meaningful revenue
0:16:56over time so instead I switched about
0:17:00six months ago I added a couple of
0:17:03features that had been very highly
0:17:04requested the main main one of which was
0:17:06dark mode a whole dark theme of the app
0:17:09i out of that too the app a that six
0:17:11months ago and that I added it only for
0:17:13people who were paying the voluntary
0:17:15patronage and that was weird for a
0:17:17number of reasons I mean first of all
0:17:19now it's still called patronage but now
0:17:22you get perks and so that's a little bit
0:17:24odd a lot of people have ejected to the
0:17:26terminology there and I understand why
0:17:29and then a lot of people are mad because
0:17:32people who had bought the original
0:17:34five-dollar unlock everything purchased
0:17:36the year earlier were very mad that here
0:17:38was a new feature that they did not get
0:17:40they were extremely mad and I heard from
0:17:42them constantly even literally for the
0:17:44last six months like it never stopped I
0:17:45kept here
0:17:46from them and so I don't want to make my
0:17:47early customers so mad and then and then
0:17:51the final problem was even that while it
0:17:53did provide a nice bump to the number of
0:17:55people who were paying it didn't provide
0:17:57enough of a bump to make it really a
0:17:59sustainable good income so I could
0:18:02sustain the service on that just barely
0:18:03but but I really need more to to both do
0:18:08what I want to do with it and to justify
0:18:10pouring a lot a lot of my time into it
0:18:12rather than having to start exploring
0:18:13new projects so I decided ads were worth
0:18:18a try because as you said like ads make
0:18:21a lot of sense now you know there's a
0:18:23reason why so much that we that we
0:18:26consume and use in today's technology
0:18:28world is ad funded there's a big reason
0:18:31for that and that is that you know you
0:18:34basically anybody can use everything
0:18:36they want for free you just have to
0:18:38tolerate these ads and most people don't
0:18:41mind ads you know I don't know anybody
0:18:43who loves ads but most people don't mind
0:18:45like they know people will give will
0:18:48take that trade off if the trade off is
0:18:50I would rather not pay but I'll take ads
0:18:53or you can pay and then you won't see
0:18:56ads most people will choose the the add
0:18:58option there because they don't want to
0:19:00pay and that's fine it seemed to make a
0:19:02lot of sense the the the main risk to
0:19:05this was of course that here I had this
0:19:08app that is very well regarded by a lot
0:19:11of people very it's used by a lot of
0:19:13people many of whom were very strongly
0:19:14opinionated and it looks you know had a
0:19:17good design you know has it has a good
0:19:19design it looks nice and a lot of people
0:19:22were going to see me triads and I've had
0:19:24various opinions of ads over the years
0:19:26and again I I don't love them either but
0:19:29I consider them kind of the the
0:19:30acceptable trade-off for what we're
0:19:32doing here so I was very very scared to
0:19:36release this this was this was the most
0:19:38nervous I've ever been about really seen
0:19:40anything since I've done a 1.0 and I
0:19:42released it and overall the the reaction
0:19:46was better than I expected it was it's
0:19:49not great I wouldn't say it's a great
0:19:51reaction but I would say it's a lot less
0:19:54horrible than I was predicting and that
0:19:56I was prepared for my star rating is in
0:19:59the crapper
0:20:00this was the this is the first time
0:20:02overcast has ever had a star rating
0:20:04below four-and-a-half I believe now I'm
0:20:06at two and a half something like that
0:20:08so my ratings destroyed and that's gonna
0:20:10hurt me a lot I hope that's only
0:20:12temporary we will find out I'm getting a
0:20:14lot of angry emails and tweets and lots
0:20:17of them lots of people who are not very
0:20:20kind about about this change but on the
0:20:23other hand I've gotten a whole lot of
0:20:24people who are totally ok with it and
0:20:27like that there's no longer this weird
0:20:29difference between like special features
0:20:32that patrons get and you know and this
0:20:35weird terminology of patron eggs that
0:20:38even though it is also including special
0:20:40features so now I simplified things so
0:20:44now you have these ads and if you don't
0:20:46want to see ads and then down the road I
0:20:48might add a few little things here but
0:20:49if you don't want to see ads you can buy
0:20:51the annual subscription which is a new
0:20:53Auto renewing kind and it's just called
0:20:55overcast premium so no more like patron
0:20:57eggs wording like you know no more
0:20:59messing with ideas of you know goodwill
0:21:02or charity over in that area because
0:21:05that was as I said problematic for a lot
0:21:06of people now it's just called premium
0:21:09you pay ten bucks a year you get ads
0:21:10this is a simplification even from the
0:21:13previous subscriptions they were a
0:21:15dollar a month so it was twelve dollars
0:21:17a year if you paid annually this is even
0:21:19cheaper ten ten dollars a year because
0:21:21it's nice and simple you know and I even
0:21:24adjusted on all the different currencies
0:21:25around the world so that like a lot of
0:21:26the Euro based ones we're gonna be like
0:21:28ten fifty euro and I said now just you
0:21:31know $9.99 is fine or 10 even whatever
0:21:33it is so made it very simple much
0:21:36clearer wording and a much honestly
0:21:38simpler business model there's ads in
0:21:40the app if you want to get rid of them
0:21:41you pay me ten bucks a year the the
0:21:44amazing thing about this is that I get
0:21:46recurring revenue from anybody who's
0:21:48actually using the app so I'm getting it
0:21:50somewhere whether it's the ad or whether
0:21:52it's subscriptions I'm getting recurring
0:21:53revenue from usage and it's exactly what
0:21:55you said earlier David it's like you
0:21:57know I'm incentivized to keep people
0:22:00using the app and to make the app good
0:22:02enough the people keep coming back and
0:22:04using it I don't I know longer have an
0:22:06incentive of like what am I gonna do to
0:22:08push people over the over like the next
0:22:10big version or what kind of crazy
0:22:12features can I come up with that'll make
0:22:14pay and you know anger everybody else
0:22:16like I really have to make the app
0:22:18better now and as long as I do that I
0:22:20make money from everybody who uses it
0:22:23and it's not like a massive amount more
0:22:25money but it is more and and the ads you
0:22:29know it's a little early to say how well
0:22:30the ads are working because it's only
0:22:31been a few days since I've had them in
0:22:32but even in these few days I've gotten a
0:22:35ton of more of more subscriptions it's
0:22:39not you know I haven't like doubled or
0:22:41anything and but that might happen who
0:22:43knows I haven't doubled yet but I
0:22:45certainly have a lot more subscribe or
0:22:47subscribers these are also now all in
0:22:50the new apple autumn renewing system so
0:22:51that means a year from now if they still
0:22:53subscribe I will get 85 percent instead
0:22:55of 70 percent from them which is a big
0:22:57deal
0:22:57and the ads are kind of making up the
0:23:00difference of you know trying to give me
0:23:03some money for everyone who's not a
0:23:05subscriber and you know right now the
0:23:07amount of money the ads are making is
0:23:08fairly modest but you know it's still
0:23:10very early and I still could experiment
0:23:12with different placements of the ad
0:23:14different formats of ads things like
0:23:16that and I think it's ended up working
0:23:20out the I mean I'm going to have to
0:23:22figure out how the heck to make
0:23:23everybody happy enough to stop giving me
0:23:241 star reviews and sending me nasty
0:23:26emails because my star rating is as I
0:23:28mentioned down from four and a half to
0:23:30two and a half with a very large volume
0:23:34so I don't know about that but the rest
0:23:36of it seems to be working ok sure and
0:23:39the reality is - it's the awkward thing
0:23:41of so much of this is coming I think
0:23:43from the change in business model like
0:23:47if this was if the app that you just
0:23:49released were overcast 1.0 I doubt you
0:23:53would have that same negativity because
0:23:55that's just the nature of these things
0:23:57where people are like oh I had this
0:23:59thing it's like you were giving me this
0:24:00great app for free with nothing in with
0:24:02no impingement at all upon me now it's a
0:24:05free app that is impinging on me
0:24:07slightly by showing me you know ads at
0:24:09the tops of some of the lists and so
0:24:12that change it's like it feels like
0:24:13you've taken something from me which
0:24:15we've done really but you know that's
0:24:17the way it feels I imagine and so you
0:24:19know over time I suppose in some ways
0:24:20it's one of the nice things where well
0:24:22one day I would love for the App Store
0:24:24to do like a rolling average of reviews
0:24:25the next time you do an update your
0:24:27review
0:24:28we'll reset again and you can hopefully
0:24:30put a lot of these one stars behind you
0:24:32you know and just sort of go from there
0:24:35yeah I think that's really you know what
0:24:38I'm doing here I mean and a lot of
0:24:41people have asked why I why I didn't
0:24:43release this as part of a bigger 3.0
0:24:45update and I think the results speak for
0:24:47themselves if I have leased this as part
0:24:50of a whole bunch of other features and
0:24:51changes and a big push similar to
0:24:54Apple's headphone jack thing the story
0:24:56would have been all about the ads and
0:24:59the star ratings would have been all
0:25:01about the ads and the reviews would be
0:25:02all about the ads and I feel like that I
0:25:05I'm better off making this transition to
0:25:07ad based now while I'm still in the
0:25:10two-point X series and then when I do a
0:25:12big 3.0 release down the road hopefully
0:25:14not too far down the road but when I do
0:25:16it down the road this story will already
0:25:19include like people who write about
0:25:20overcast people who review or guys
0:25:22people who use overcast will all already
0:25:24know okay this happens I had driven so
0:25:26that that'll be old news you know just
0:25:27like the headphone jack thing and the
0:25:29iPhone this week you know we all knew
0:25:30about it months ago so now it's old news
0:25:32I'm real kind of accepting it and moving
0:25:34on and just evaluating the iPhone on its
0:25:35other merits that's how this is gonna be
0:25:37I think with overcast 3.0 that you know
0:25:39I'm going to be able to now do things
0:25:42freely and and make the app great on its
0:25:45own merits and the story won't won't be
0:25:48just about the ads when I finally launch
0:25:50it and perhaps even more over it seems
0:25:52like imagine no not to speak for you but
0:25:55there's a slightly better incentive for
0:25:56you to really put that work into 3.0
0:25:59because if it if it feels more
0:26:02sustainable and viable it's not like
0:26:04doesn't feel like you're just putting
0:26:05more time after something that kind of
0:26:07is slowly decaying over time that you're
0:26:09just kind of you put all this effort
0:26:11into a 3.0 all these new features all
0:26:13those big updates and then it's like and
0:26:15it's not actually gonna make any
0:26:17difference at the end of the day like
0:26:18you could just leave the app as it is
0:26:19now and hope for the best that is
0:26:21entirely correct I mean I I was really
0:26:23you know not not in a very good
0:26:25psychological place about the app before
0:26:26long stats because revenue was just flat
0:26:29and and flat at not a particularly great
0:26:32level and I didn't really know what else
0:26:33to do it felt hopeless and now I have
0:26:36this big influx of subscribers and I
0:26:38have this nice little kind of side money
0:26:39from the ads
0:26:41and that is amazing and that has a
0:26:43little fire under me now you're totally
0:26:45right it has totally turned around my
0:26:47motivation I'm not thinking of like Oh
0:26:49what other apps could I make to make
0:26:50more money no now I'm just thinking how
0:26:53do I make this even more amazing and I
0:26:55have had an amazingly productive few
0:26:57days since since launching me HAP's
0:26:59arson selection the ads rather of just
0:27:02making the app incredibly better like
0:27:05getting a lot of stuff done on 3.0
0:27:06working through like some navigation
0:27:08changes and making some like custom
0:27:09animations and you know cool stuff like
0:27:11that that that you that you can kind of
0:27:13only do if you're making money or if you
0:27:16if you think you're going to make money
0:27:17I don't have like investing into it not
0:27:19just like bullet point features but like
0:27:21polish and fun new things and rethinking
0:27:25some of the design aspects and and you
0:27:28know I'm making I made the watch app a
0:27:30lot better you know for 3.0 also and now
0:27:32I can think about adding it today widget
0:27:34and all this bogus that now just called
0:27:35widgets all this stuff that I can now do
0:27:37because there's money coming in and at a
0:27:41reasonable rate now that I can I can be
0:27:43relatively assured of its future and and
0:27:46that's something I couldn't say before
0:27:47and and that made me you know honestly
0:27:49quite sad pretty much all all summer as
0:27:52I watched the sales just kind of
0:27:53flattened but now things have turned
0:27:55around and I am kind of on fire now and
0:27:59I'm like plowed through and doing all
0:28:01sorts of great stuff and it feels great
0:28:02and I think in the long run you know
0:28:04even though right now it is quite
0:28:06painful to see my rating go goes so far
0:28:08down the tubes and to get all these
0:28:09angry messages from people but I think
0:28:11long term it will be better for my users
0:28:14overall yeah and I think the thing that
0:28:16I love so much about this change is like
0:28:18you answer with are what they are like
0:28:19you can sometimes I feel like we can
0:28:20moralize about them and get all like
0:28:22fancy about it but at the end of the day
0:28:23they're just a tool for businesses to
0:28:25make money and what I love though is
0:28:27that it lets you like with the things
0:28:29that you're talking about the thing that
0:28:30I love about that is it's allowing you
0:28:32to not have to make this big case of
0:28:35like I always hate the three-point owes
0:28:36that feel like it's like the kitchen
0:28:38it's like everything in the kitchen sink
0:28:39right it's just I have to have these I
0:28:42have I did all my good features in
0:28:43version 1 I can made up some other stuff
0:28:45for version 2 version 3 here's just
0:28:47everything else I could think of is just
0:28:48an assault by feature checklist it's
0:28:50like now you can just say you know I'm
0:28:52just gonna polish I'm just gonna keep
0:28:54polishing this and
0:28:55make it better and better and better
0:28:56because I'm not trying to upsell you on
0:28:59a paid upgrade I'm not trying to do
0:29:00something like that I just want to make
0:29:01the app as like the absolute best it can
0:29:04be
0:29:04and that sounds like an awesome place
0:29:06for you to be it really man it feels
0:29:08great I mean you've been here before I'm
0:29:10sure like it feels great and so I'm I'm
0:29:12just so happy to finally kind of be like
0:29:14be back in it again and and to feel good
0:29:16about its financial future again it's
0:29:19awesome all right well here's hoping it
0:29:21goes well and we're out of time this
0:29:23week thank you everybody for listening
0:29:25and we will talk to you next week bye