Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar or show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today we

00:00:12 ◼   ► wanted to talk a little bit about a

00:00:14 ◼   ► couple of different topics but largely

00:00:15 ◼   ► around that the the theme of shutting

00:00:18 ◼   ► something down and specifically drawing

00:00:21 ◼   ► on some of the experiences from this

00:00:22 ◼   ► past week where the app vesper which was

00:00:25 ◼   ► made by brent simmons dave wiskus and

00:00:28 ◼   ► John Gruber announced that they are

00:00:29 ◼   ► going to be closing down after you know

00:00:31 ◼   ► several your run of being in the App

00:00:33 ◼   ► Store and they handled that process both

00:00:36 ◼   ► really well and I think that's something

00:00:37 ◼   ► that I think we wanted to expand upon a

00:00:40 ◼   ► little bit and talk about how to

00:00:42 ◼   ► actually walk through closing something

00:00:44 ◼   ► down when it's time you know the time

00:00:46 ◼   ► has come for it to be shut down how to

00:00:48 ◼   ► do it in a classy and you know good for

00:00:50 ◼   ► your users kind of way and then also

00:00:52 ◼   ► they've they've both written a lot of

00:00:55 ◼   ► post mortems and kind of thoughts about

00:00:57 ◼   ► the process and some of them are relates

00:00:58 ◼   ► to the modern App Store and ways of

00:01:02 ◼   ► pricing things and where things that may

00:01:04 ◼   ► have worked out differently you know if

00:01:05 ◼   ► they have it approached the app

00:01:07 ◼   ► differently would it have been

00:01:07 ◼   ► successful in a different way I think

00:01:10 ◼   ► are all very relevant to you know to us

00:01:12 ◼   ► in our discussion but I think first the

00:01:14 ◼   ► best place to start is just to talk

00:01:15 ◼   ► about the way they shut down vesper and

00:01:17 ◼   ► so you know Brent posted and they didn't

00:01:20 ◼   ► serve this last update I just think it's

00:01:21 ◼   ► been quite a while since they had done a

00:01:23 ◼   ► previous update and they didn't update

00:01:25 ◼   ► and basically all it does is it adds the

00:01:26 ◼   ► ability to export all of your data out

00:01:28 ◼   ► of the app they made the app free so

00:01:31 ◼   ► that you it just because like why not

00:01:34 ◼   ► and they've turned off the ability to

00:01:36 ◼   ► create new sync accounts which and then

00:01:39 ◼   ► their sync service will be going away

00:01:40 ◼   ► soon and overall I was when I saw that

00:01:42 ◼   ► it was like that is just like the classy

00:01:44 ◼   ► way to do it like they've put in the

00:01:46 ◼   ► extra effort even though necessarily

00:01:48 ◼   ► there's nothing not a specific return

00:01:50 ◼   ► for this effort because the app has

00:01:53 ◼   ► become now free they put in the effort

00:01:56 ◼   ► to make it so that if you're an existing

00:01:57 ◼   ► customer you're taken care of and

00:01:58 ◼   ► whenever I see you I'm gonna see some

00:02:00 ◼   ► like that I like I was not surprised

00:02:02 ◼   ► given the people who are doing this but

00:02:03 ◼   ► it was a good reminder that there will

00:02:06 ◼   ► come a time with all of our products

00:02:07 ◼   ► where we have to just you know probably

00:02:09 ◼   ► gonna have to you know turn things off

00:02:10 ◼   ► and it's something

00:02:13 ◼   ► worth planning for and thinking through

00:02:14 ◼   ► and then you know probably encourage

00:02:16 ◼   ► also just the being thoughtful about

00:02:18 ◼   ► what's best for your customers in that

00:02:19 ◼   ► situation you know it's it's an

00:02:22 ◼   ► unfortunate reality that in in this

00:02:24 ◼   ► business basically nothing is permanent

00:02:27 ◼   ► this is one of the reasons you know

00:02:29 ◼   ► going back kind of to the to the big

00:02:31 ◼   ► picture for a second like the the the

00:02:33 ◼   ► possibility for the apps we we use and

00:02:36 ◼   ► possibly depend on to ultimately shut

00:02:38 ◼   ► down or be sold or whatever the case may

00:02:41 ◼   ► be to change in a way that either shuts

00:02:43 ◼   ► them down completely or that make it so

00:02:44 ◼   ► that we can't or don't want to use them

00:02:46 ◼   ► anymore really underscores the

00:02:48 ◼   ► importance of keeping your data if

00:02:51 ◼   ► possible in open formats or at least

00:02:53 ◼   ► preserving the option like what vesper

00:02:56 ◼   ► did to export into open formats and

00:02:59 ◼   ► there's there some discussion too about

00:03:02 ◼   ► like whether they are morally obligated

00:03:04 ◼   ► to open-source it or not I I think in

00:03:08 ◼   ► Brent's original post he made a pretty

00:03:11 ◼   ► good case for why like they might

00:03:13 ◼   ► open-source it but it's not necessarily

00:03:15 ◼   ► a sure thing that they should or need to

00:03:17 ◼   ► because like this is really old code

00:03:19 ◼   ► because it was it was originally written

00:03:20 ◼   ► for iOS 6 and a lot of it is not

00:03:23 ◼   ► particularly useful in the modern era of

00:03:25 ◼   ► like modern iOS capabilities that they

00:03:28 ◼   ► like now here at the same thing today

00:03:30 ◼   ► you'd use way less code and ultimately I

00:03:32 ◼   ► don't believe that anybody is entitled

00:03:34 ◼   ► to the source could have another

00:03:35 ◼   ► application if they if they paid five

00:03:37 ◼   ► bucks for it once two years ago like

00:03:38 ◼   ► that's that to me is just not not a

00:03:41 ◼   ► thing I think it's a it's a courtesy if

00:03:43 ◼   ► you can open-source that it's kind of

00:03:44 ◼   ► interesting a little bit but it's not

00:03:46 ◼   ► you know the panacea that some people

00:03:48 ◼   ► think they need and deserve and and if

00:03:50 ◼   ► you if it's very important to you to

00:03:52 ◼   ► have open source stuff if an app goes

00:03:54 ◼   ► out of business I think the only way you

00:03:56 ◼   ► can actually do that is to use an app

00:03:58 ◼   ► that is open source from the beginning

00:03:59 ◼   ► anyway so you know I've gone through a

00:04:03 ◼   ► few product transitions myself the only

00:04:07 ◼   ► thing that's actually shut down is the

00:04:08 ◼   ► magazine but you know who knows what

00:04:11 ◼   ► what the future will hold there it's

00:04:13 ◼   ► tough but it's the reality I mean this

00:04:14 ◼   ► was an you know vesper was an app that

00:04:16 ◼   ► that all of its creators were very clear

00:04:18 ◼   ► that they would have liked to have more

00:04:21 ◼   ► time to spend working on it they would

00:04:22 ◼   ► have liked for it to continue and to be

00:04:24 ◼   ► worth working on but it didn't bring in

00:04:26 ◼   ► enough

00:04:27 ◼   ► money to be full timing comes to justify

00:04:30 ◼   ► the work that it would have taken to

00:04:31 ◼   ► make it really the next level and to

00:04:33 ◼   ► make the mac app and to make everything

00:04:35 ◼   ► else it needed that's just how it goes

00:04:36 ◼   ► sometimes that you know that's just the

00:04:38 ◼   ► reality of product development sometimes

00:04:41 ◼   ► it doesn't work out and when you're when

00:04:44 ◼   ► you're choosing to work on a side

00:04:46 ◼   ► project like this was for all three of

00:04:48 ◼   ► its developers it has to somehow justify

00:04:50 ◼   ► the time you're putting into it and in

00:04:52 ◼   ► this case also the the money that they

00:04:55 ◼   ► were paying to host the sync service and

00:04:56 ◼   ► to end a license the font and so you

00:04:59 ◼   ► know they had ongoing costs they were

00:05:02 ◼   ► faced with the problem of time

00:05:04 ◼   ► investment that it needed and there

00:05:06 ◼   ► simply wasn't enough revenue coming in

00:05:08 ◼   ► to make it worth it and that's

00:05:11 ◼   ► unfortunate on so many levels for so

00:05:13 ◼   ► many reasons especially with with this

00:05:16 ◼   ► group of people and with this app

00:05:17 ◼   ► because it was a very good app and these

00:05:19 ◼   ► were very high-profile developers who

00:05:21 ◼   ► they got a lot of good publicity from

00:05:23 ◼   ► themselves and others because of their

00:05:25 ◼   ► position and because it was a good app

00:05:26 ◼   ► and it still didn't work out so I think

00:05:28 ◼   ► there's a lot we can unpack from this

00:05:30 ◼   ► and a lot we can learn from this from

00:05:32 ◼   ► the market today

00:05:33 ◼   ► yeah and it's I think there's something

00:05:35 ◼   ► to to be said that it's it's it is it's

00:05:39 ◼   ► a very strange thing to say but in a

00:05:40 ◼   ► small way I find it slightly encouraging

00:05:43 ◼   ► that the vesper didn't work out and and

00:05:46 ◼   ► I want to explain that but I mean is any

00:05:49 ◼   ► project that any of us do even if it has

00:05:52 ◼   ► everything going for it in terms of you

00:05:55 ◼   ► you know there's not a lot of things

00:05:56 ◼   ► that you could kind of imagine or draw

00:05:59 ◼   ► up that would be like put the app put

00:06:00 ◼   ► your app if you whatever you're working

00:06:02 ◼   ► on and in a better place as a starting

00:06:04 ◼   ► off point then I think what vesper had

00:06:06 ◼   ► but it's a reminder of how even if you

00:06:10 ◼   ► have everything going for you and you

00:06:11 ◼   ► make something awesome that's not

00:06:13 ◼   ► necessarily going to be enough that like

00:06:16 ◼   ► and that's in some ways I find that

00:06:19 ◼   ► encouraging because it's a reminder that

00:06:20 ◼   ► you it's not but even having all those

00:06:24 ◼   ► things you want you're not guarantee

00:06:25 ◼   ► success so even if you don't have those

00:06:27 ◼   ► things you're in suddenly in a weird way

00:06:29 ◼   ► much the same in the same boat you know

00:06:31 ◼   ► your there's going to be a certain a

00:06:33 ◼   ► certain degree of look about whether

00:06:35 ◼   ► it's you know whether it's going to hit

00:06:37 ◼   ► the right group whether you approach

00:06:38 ◼   ► things in the right way

00:06:40 ◼   ► I mean in reading through their post

00:06:41 ◼   ► mortems about the experience it's like

00:06:43 ◼   ► there's things that they look back and

00:06:44 ◼   ► they made choices that they would do

00:06:46 ◼   ► differently now and there are people who

00:06:49 ◼   ► really understand the AppStore who are

00:06:50 ◼   ► very smart developers and designers and

00:06:52 ◼   ► you know they made decisions that in

00:06:54 ◼   ► some ways they wish they would have

00:06:55 ◼   ► changed too and I don't have any weird

00:06:57 ◼   ► way it's like it's nice to have that the

00:06:59 ◼   ► humanity of that of like yeah it's

00:07:00 ◼   ► difficult it's tough and it's a good

00:07:03 ◼   ► reminder that if you know I when I

00:07:05 ◼   ► launch things if they don't work out the

00:07:06 ◼   ► way that I might want them to be it's

00:07:08 ◼   ► like that's just that's just the table

00:07:10 ◼   ► stakes that's just the reality of the

00:07:12 ◼   ► game of making software and putting it

00:07:13 ◼   ► into a market that sometimes it's not

00:07:16 ◼   ► gonna work

00:07:16 ◼   ► and it's also a good reminder to of you

00:07:19 ◼   ► know it's so easy I think to discredit

00:07:21 ◼   ► an initiative like that that's nice for

00:07:24 ◼   ► kind of a problem where it's like when

00:07:26 ◼   ► you see someone punch something and they

00:07:28 ◼   ► have the big publicity it's like yeah

00:07:30 ◼   ► that's nice I suppose but like that's

00:07:32 ◼   ► not a guarantee of success either

00:07:33 ◼   ► ultimately the work and effort that

00:07:36 ◼   ► it'll take for something to be

00:07:37 ◼   ► successful isn't just based on who you

00:07:41 ◼   ► are that it there's more to it than that

00:07:42 ◼   ► and that just seems like a good reminder

00:07:44 ◼   ► that this is as sad as it is as a as an

00:07:48 ◼   ► event that's exactly it I mean like you

00:07:50 ◼   ► know I've said for years and nobody

00:07:52 ◼   ► believes me because I have I'm the

00:07:53 ◼   ► benefit I'm the beneficiary of publicity

00:07:56 ◼   ► because I have an audience but I've said

00:07:59 ◼   ► for years that you know having a built

00:08:01 ◼   ► an audience or being like a quote famous

00:08:03 ◼   ► developer or whatever else it does help

00:08:05 ◼   ► you a lot at launch time it is something

00:08:07 ◼   ► that can basically guarantee you a

00:08:10 ◼   ► certain minimum level of success at

00:08:12 ◼   ► launch but it is not a substitute for a

00:08:16 ◼   ► good product market fit it is not going

00:08:20 ◼   ► to save you from market realities and is

00:08:22 ◼   ► not really going to help you that much

00:08:24 ◼   ► in the law it'll help a little bit it's

00:08:26 ◼   ► not gonna help you that much in the long

00:08:27 ◼   ► term you know in this case Vesper was a

00:08:31 ◼   ► note-taking app and it was it things a

00:08:33 ◼   ► little bit differently than another

00:08:34 ◼   ► note-taking app so it had like a couple

00:08:36 ◼   ► of you of unique features and design

00:08:37 ◼   ► choices and also of course it looked

00:08:40 ◼   ► really nice but you know I was using

00:08:41 ◼   ► designed more in the feature sense there

00:08:43 ◼   ► and they did a whole bunch of custom UI

00:08:47 ◼   ► text field jumbling basically like

00:08:50 ◼   ► worked to work around UI tech field

00:08:52 ◼   ► limitations to make it really

00:08:54 ◼   ► to do what they wanted to right before

00:08:56 ◼   ► all that stuff became a lot easier so

00:08:59 ◼   ► they had they had like you know market

00:09:01 ◼   ► timing problem number one of the hate

00:09:04 ◼   ► they did a whole lot of work to to hack

00:09:07 ◼   ► around UI text fields problems right

00:09:09 ◼   ► before the api's made unnecessary they

00:09:11 ◼   ► also did a huge amount of design and

00:09:14 ◼   ► work making a clean simple design

00:09:17 ◼   ► looking app running on iOS 6 and then

00:09:19 ◼   ► iOS 7 came in and changed everything

00:09:22 ◼   ► about design and made a whole bunch of

00:09:23 ◼   ► that stuff easier later they had the

00:09:26 ◼   ► issue of when they launched the the

00:09:28 ◼   ► third-party notes category was a lot

00:09:31 ◼   ► healthier than it is now because Apple

00:09:33 ◼   ► Notes was terrible and then in the

00:09:35 ◼   ► meantime Apple Notes got really good it

00:09:38 ◼   ► got that big update was it iOS 8 I think

00:09:40 ◼   ► so yeah with cloud kit I think so they

00:09:43 ◼   ► came out and it was first using it and

00:09:45 ◼   ► would dramatically improve the sink

00:09:47 ◼   ► system and that you didn't have to use

00:09:48 ◼   ► web dev and I think that was eight yeah

00:09:50 ◼   ► eight or nine whenever it was you know

00:09:52 ◼   ► Apple Notes got a ton better like

00:09:55 ◼   ► massively so and to everyone's great

00:09:57 ◼   ► surprise I think I mean I don't think

00:09:59 ◼   ► anybody expected Apple to ever really

00:10:01 ◼   ► care that much about their Notes app and

00:10:03 ◼   ► to add the level of features that they

00:10:04 ◼   ► did but anyway Apple Notes comes out is

00:10:07 ◼   ► awesome and takes away much of vespers

00:10:10 ◼   ► market gain or rather much of Esper's

00:10:13 ◼   ► purpose in the market I think not all of

00:10:16 ◼   ► it of course because you know there's a

00:10:17 ◼   ► lot of things that vesper still did

00:10:18 ◼   ► better for a lot of people but it

00:10:21 ◼   ► certainly took a lot of the window that

00:10:22 ◼   ► out of those sales so it was it was

00:10:24 ◼   ► impacted a lot by the market in general

00:10:26 ◼   ► but also I think in John Gruber's post

00:10:30 ◼   ► earlier his big post-mortem about it I

00:10:32 ◼   ► think he just pointed also that the

00:10:35 ◼   ► pricing model was just also fairly

00:10:37 ◼   ► outdated and that's something I think we

00:10:39 ◼   ► have a lot to say about here so

00:10:41 ◼   ► originally a five dollar upfront app no

00:10:43 ◼   ► in-app purchase no recurring revenue

00:10:45 ◼   ► stream just five dollars and once

00:10:46 ◼   ► upfront same model I used back in the

00:10:48 ◼   ► day for instapaper sort of what I used

00:10:51 ◼   ► at the beginning of overcast but not

00:10:52 ◼   ► really a very popular model lots of

00:10:54 ◼   ► people use it especially in the early

00:10:56 ◼   ► days and the advantages of that model

00:10:58 ◼   ► are plenty I mean first of all it's very

00:11:00 ◼   ► very simple

00:11:01 ◼   ► as we discussed earlier in earlier

00:11:02 ◼   ► episodes about pricing in planning paid

00:11:04 ◼   ► upfront takes basically no work for the

00:11:06 ◼   ► developer you don't do you don't do

00:11:08 ◼   ► any in-app purchase code you don't do

00:11:09 ◼   ► any receipt checking any restore

00:11:11 ◼   ► purchases any anything really you just

00:11:13 ◼   ► kind of set the price in iTunes Connect

00:11:15 ◼   ► and that's it you're done so there's

00:11:17 ◼   ► lots of advantage of the developer it

00:11:18 ◼   ► also takes care of a lot of like

00:11:19 ◼   ► ambiguities of whether somebody bought

00:11:21 ◼   ► it at the right time or whatever you

00:11:22 ◼   ► know it it's all a lot of problems there

00:11:24 ◼   ► it also creates a few problems there is

00:11:27 ◼   ► no clear way to upgrade pricing there

00:11:29 ◼   ► you know it people have to pay before

00:11:32 ◼   ► they can even see the app so you have a

00:11:34 ◼   ► lot of unhappy people who buy the app

00:11:35 ◼   ► you get their money and then they kind

00:11:37 ◼   ► of don't like it so you it's kind of

00:11:39 ◼   ► like kind of unfair it's not really good

00:11:40 ◼   ► for customer satisfaction or your

00:11:43 ◼   ► reputation if the app doesn't live up to

00:11:45 ◼   ► it and people are unhappy with you and

00:11:47 ◼   ► then of course the big problem is that

00:11:50 ◼   ► these days it's really hard to get

00:11:52 ◼   ► people to pay for apps upfront that

00:11:54 ◼   ► that's a big one and I think we'll talk

00:11:56 ◼   ► more about that but first we'll talk

00:11:58 ◼   ► about our sponsor this episode is

00:11:59 ◼   ► brought to you by Linode a combination

00:12:01 ◼   ► of high performance SSD Linux servers

00:12:03 ◼   ► spread across eight data centers around

00:12:05 ◼   ► the world makes Linode a fantastic

00:12:07 ◼   ► solution for your server infrastructure

00:12:09 ◼   ► in geek speek there are VPS host but

00:12:11 ◼   ► there are really really good VPS O's you

00:12:13 ◼   ► can get a server up and running in under

00:12:14 ◼   ► a minute with plans starting at just $10

00:12:16 ◼   ► a month which now will get you two

00:12:18 ◼   ► gigabytes of RAM at that $10 month level

00:12:20 ◼   ► it's incredible you'll be able to choose

00:12:22 ◼   ► your resource level your Linux distro

00:12:23 ◼   ► and your nodes location and data centers

00:12:26 ◼   ► right from the manager tool and once

00:12:28 ◼   ► you're up and running you can easily

00:12:29 ◼   ► deploy boot and resize your virtual

00:12:31 ◼   ► server with just a few clicks

00:12:32 ◼   ► now Linode servers offer

00:12:34 ◼   ► industry-leading native SSD enterprise

00:12:37 ◼   ► grade storage this is amazing SSDs great

00:12:40 ◼   ► speeds no i/o problems that I've ever

00:12:43 ◼   ► had with them they're fantastic

00:12:44 ◼   ► these are running powerful Intel i5

00:12:46 ◼   ► Zeon's which are the fastest you can get

00:12:49 ◼   ► in the cloud market and they have access

00:12:50 ◼   ► to a 40 gigabit back-end network with

00:12:52 ◼   ► multiple levels of redundancy

00:12:54 ◼   ► there's also an API that allows you to

00:12:56 ◼   ► easily automate tasks or develop custom

00:12:57 ◼   ► applications in the cloud I actually use

00:12:59 ◼   ► the API whenever you set up a new server

00:13:01 ◼   ► I have a big script that as a whole

00:13:02 ◼   ► thing for me all using the node API and

00:13:05 ◼   ► all the way nodes pricing tiers feature

00:13:06 ◼   ► hourly billing with a monthly cap and

00:13:08 ◼   ► all plans and add-on services like

00:13:09 ◼   ► backups and node balancers so you can

00:13:12 ◼   ► pay per hour if you want to but once you

00:13:14 ◼   ► reach the rate that would have been the

00:13:15 ◼   ► monthly rate it caps you there so you

00:13:17 ◼   ► don't ever pay more than you have to we

00:13:19 ◼   ► recommend it Linode is awesome

00:13:20 ◼   ► I have all

00:13:21 ◼   ► stuff hosted there now and anyway as a

00:13:23 ◼   ► listener of this show if you sign up at

00:13:24 ◼   ► lynda.com slash radar you'll not only be

00:13:27 ◼   ► supporting us but you'll also get $20

00:13:29 ◼   ► towards any Linode plan so go to

00:13:31 ◼   ► lynda.com slash radar to learn more sign

00:13:34 ◼   ► up and take advantage that $20 credit or

00:13:36 ◼   ► use promo code radar 20 at checkout

00:13:38 ◼   ► thank you so much to Linode for

00:13:39 ◼   ► supporting the show so one thing that I

00:13:42 ◼   ► wanted to sort of talk a little bit

00:13:44 ◼   ► through is related to this sort of this

00:13:47 ◼   ► concept of you know charging five

00:13:49 ◼   ► dollars upfront and the in my recent

00:13:53 ◼   ► experience it's something that I've sort

00:13:55 ◼   ► of started to wrap my my hands around is

00:13:57 ◼   ► the concept that is whenever I'm

00:13:59 ◼   ► building something it is so easy to

00:14:02 ◼   ► focus on the say the first month that

00:14:06 ◼   ► the app is going to be in market that

00:14:08 ◼   ► I'm gonna build something I'm gonna put

00:14:09 ◼   ► on the App Store and it's gonna go out

00:14:11 ◼   ► and my focus and my thinking and you

00:14:15 ◼   ► know both around the design the

00:14:17 ◼   ► development and everything pricing

00:14:18 ◼   ► marketing it's all about that first sort

00:14:21 ◼   ► of wave and in many ways that makes

00:14:24 ◼   ► sense that's logical like that's that is

00:14:26 ◼   ► after you know see you spend months and

00:14:28 ◼   ► months building something like that

00:14:29 ◼   ► first month is really exciting and

00:14:30 ◼   ► important to say at first day you know

00:14:32 ◼   ► we're seeing yourself you know hopefully

00:14:34 ◼   ► you know zoom up the add the charts in

00:14:35 ◼   ► the app store like that's really cool

00:14:36 ◼   ► but in the reality is that like

00:14:41 ◼   ► sustainable long-term viable businesses

00:14:44 ◼   ► are not made really at all in that first

00:14:47 ◼   ► month that in my experience in order for

00:14:52 ◼   ► you to have something that is viable

00:14:54 ◼   ► long term you have to have a model that

00:14:57 ◼   ► will work a year from now 18 months from

00:15:01 ◼   ► now and have an ongoing component to it

00:15:04 ◼   ► that works and does what you need it to

00:15:06 ◼   ► do and that is I worry that I think

00:15:09 ◼   ► we're as I've gone through this there's

00:15:12 ◼   ► so many I feel like I've had the

00:15:14 ◼   ► discussion in my mind and out loud

00:15:15 ◼   ► dozens and dozens of times about oh

00:15:18 ◼   ► what's the best model for pricing in the

00:15:19 ◼   ► App Store but at the end of the day I

00:15:21 ◼   ► think the simple like question that is

00:15:24 ◼   ► probably helpful as we think through

00:15:26 ◼   ► these types of things for our own

00:15:27 ◼   ► applications is how will I make money a

00:15:31 ◼   ► year from now doing what I'm doing and

00:15:34 ◼   ► if you don't have a good answer

00:15:35 ◼   ► then it's probably not a great you know

00:15:38 ◼   ► set up and if you actually remember back

00:15:39 ◼   ► one of the early episodes of

00:15:41 ◼   ► under-the-radar

00:15:42 ◼   ► we're talking about activity plus plus

00:15:44 ◼   ► and you know we were going back and

00:15:46 ◼   ► forth whether it should be free or paid

00:15:47 ◼   ► and there's an activity trapper tracking

00:15:50 ◼   ► app that I made and we ended up deciding

00:15:52 ◼   ► to do the paid upfront model and there

00:15:55 ◼   ► was a variety of reasons for that but

00:15:56 ◼   ► nevertheless it was an interesting and

00:15:57 ◼   ► recent data point for the same process

00:16:00 ◼   ► and what happened is I think which I

00:16:02 ◼   ► could have predicted would happen and I

00:16:04 ◼   ► was fine with happening but you know the

00:16:06 ◼   ► first couple weeks I didn't I was very

00:16:09 ◼   ► happy with it and then it very quickly

00:16:10 ◼   ► just fell down and is now continuing and

00:16:14 ◼   ► in a stable level that that stable level

00:16:16 ◼   ► is very close to zero it's not zero it's

00:16:21 ◼   ► you know it's just sort of mumbling

00:16:24 ◼   ► along on the bottom and if you look at

00:16:26 ◼   ► the you know the actual curve of it it's

00:16:27 ◼   ► very very minimal income at this point

00:16:29 ◼   ► and that for that particular app was

00:16:32 ◼   ► fine you know for what I was doing but

00:16:35 ◼   ► there's an example of that problem of it

00:16:37 ◼   ► if you can't have a good way of making

00:16:40 ◼   ► money down the road then your business

00:16:43 ◼   ► model is always gonna be stuck and I

00:16:45 ◼   ► think that is I think the most

00:16:46 ◼   ► fundamental problem with the paid

00:16:48 ◼   ► upfront model that we have right now

00:16:49 ◼   ► because every it's sort of like it's

00:16:53 ◼   ► almost like the opposite of the the

00:16:55 ◼   ► marginal cost advantage we know we're

00:16:57 ◼   ► over time like once I've made a piece of

00:16:59 ◼   ► software I can sell the next copy for

00:17:02 ◼   ► free essentially I don't have to build

00:17:03 ◼   ► it twice I made it once and I can keep

00:17:05 ◼   ► selling it and so you know the marginal

00:17:08 ◼   ► cost of that each subsequent purchase

00:17:11 ◼   ► goes down for me but in a weird way

00:17:15 ◼   ► acquiring your next customer after

00:17:17 ◼   ► you've gotten the first one gets

00:17:19 ◼   ► incrementally harder as you go and in

00:17:23 ◼   ► some in some ways necessarily that you

00:17:25 ◼   ► may have that initial burst of people

00:17:28 ◼   ► who are interested in it who are you

00:17:29 ◼   ► know sort of passionate about you're

00:17:30 ◼   ► doing or love in this case they love

00:17:32 ◼   ► notes apps or they take lots of notes

00:17:34 ◼   ► like you're the easy low-hanging fruit

00:17:37 ◼   ► type of customers that you may be able

00:17:40 ◼   ► to acquire but then each day you go on

00:17:43 ◼   ► from there if you want to be able to

00:17:45 ◼   ► have a sustainable and reliable income

00:17:47 ◼   ► stream

00:17:48 ◼   ► you have to have a way of getting more

00:17:49 ◼   ► and more people and you're starting to

00:17:51 ◼   ► get farther and farther from your own

00:17:53 ◼   ► you know through your own circles in

00:17:55 ◼   ► terms of if you're you know D what we

00:17:57 ◼   ► were just saying earlier about well it's

00:17:58 ◼   ► easy if you have a built-in audience

00:17:59 ◼   ► it's like well that's great

00:18:01 ◼   ► that first week but that doesn't help

00:18:03 ◼   ► you a month later or a year later when

00:18:06 ◼   ► everybody in your circle is aware of it

00:18:08 ◼   ► they know about it they've bought it or

00:18:10 ◼   ► have not bought it or you know and

00:18:11 ◼   ► that's where you find yourself and so

00:18:14 ◼   ► that's the thing that the interesting

00:18:15 ◼   ► thing that I've started to try and

00:18:17 ◼   ► filter my thinking through around

00:18:19 ◼   ► pricing and around business models is

00:18:21 ◼   ► it's not really caring too much about

00:18:24 ◼   ► that first you know that that first

00:18:26 ◼   ► period and thinking almost exclusively

00:18:28 ◼   ► about a year from now and if you don't

00:18:31 ◼   ► if you having a good plan for what that

00:18:32 ◼   ► looks like and if you do if you can

00:18:35 ◼   ► focus on that I feel like you're in a

00:18:36 ◼   ► much better place and maybe you're gonna

00:18:38 ◼   ► discount and lose a bit of potential

00:18:40 ◼   ► revenue that first week or so but

00:18:42 ◼   ► overall you know you'll make them you'll

00:18:44 ◼   ► make it back dramatically if you have a

00:18:46 ◼   ► much better position years down the road

00:18:48 ◼   ► especially if this is something that you

00:18:50 ◼   ► want to do long-term exactly I mean you

00:18:53 ◼   ► know you have to think about like your

00:18:55 ◼   ► from now because like we've like anybody

00:18:57 ◼   ► who has ever had a paid app in the store

00:18:59 ◼   ► has seen the exact same curve that you

00:19:01 ◼   ► that you've seen on activity plus plus

00:19:04 ◼   ► and probably many of your other apps

00:19:05 ◼   ► which is like that big long spike that

00:19:07 ◼   ► first like couple days or week where

00:19:08 ◼   ► it's great and then just a pretty quick

00:19:11 ◼   ► drop and then kind of a plateau kind of

00:19:14 ◼   ► like an asymptotic curve look into zero

00:19:17 ◼   ► basically that work kind of stays

00:19:18 ◼   ► indefinitely low or gets gradually lower

00:19:21 ◼   ► if it isn't at zero yet and you know

00:19:24 ◼   ► I've seen that I saw that with many of

00:19:26 ◼   ► my apps I saw that with instapaper every

00:19:28 ◼   ► every major version I saw it with bug

00:19:29 ◼   ► shot the whole thing I I saw it with

00:19:31 ◼   ► overcast when when like I longed even

00:19:34 ◼   ► though it was free it still had that one

00:19:36 ◼   ► time paid purchase so it was it kind of

00:19:39 ◼   ► had the same shape it was just a little

00:19:40 ◼   ► bit different dynamic but same shape of

00:19:42 ◼   ► great first couple of months and then

00:19:44 ◼   ► gradual decline you know and and just

00:19:47 ◼   ► slowly declining over time and that's

00:19:48 ◼   ► one of the reasons I switched to

00:19:50 ◼   ► recurring subscription payments for it

00:19:52 ◼   ► is because scription payments it's not

00:19:55 ◼   ► easy it's it's actually harder to get

00:19:57 ◼   ► people to pay that way but at least the

00:19:59 ◼   ► curve is going in the other direction

00:20:01 ◼   ► and it's not even going that far in the

00:20:03 ◼   ► direction and I'm going to have to add

00:20:04 ◼   ► more things behind that pay wall to make

00:20:07 ◼   ► it more healthy than it is now because

00:20:09 ◼   ► right now basically what happened with

00:20:11 ◼   ► overcast as a quick aside here the

00:20:14 ◼   ► patronage model I was trying to get five

00:20:15 ◼   ► percent of users to pay before there

00:20:18 ◼   ► were any features when it was just

00:20:20 ◼   ► goodwill based I achieved about one and

00:20:24 ◼   ► a half percent and it kind of plateaued

00:20:26 ◼   ► of that and so when I added dark mode

00:20:29 ◼   ► and file upload but is I think it's

00:20:31 ◼   ► mostly about dark mode just having those

00:20:34 ◼   ► two desirable features behind the

00:20:35 ◼   ► paywall rather than nothing made it go

00:20:37 ◼   ► from about 1.8 1.9 percent to about 3

00:20:40 ◼   ► percent but it is now plateauing at

00:20:43 ◼   ► about 3 percent that that that rate has

00:20:45 ◼   ► stopped growing and really I needed to

00:20:47 ◼   ► be more like 5 percent to really sustain

00:20:49 ◼   ► this healthily and so I'm going to have

00:20:52 ◼   ► to put more new features behind that and

00:20:54 ◼   ► so just so everyone knows like nothing

00:20:56 ◼   ► works perfectly like you know I no

00:20:59 ◼   ► matter what we say like you know when we

00:21:01 ◼   ► long something is here's how we think

00:21:02 ◼   ► it's going to go it doesn't always go

00:21:05 ◼   ► that way and you know when Vesper

00:21:07 ◼   ► launched at 5 bucks up front they

00:21:09 ◼   ► thought that was gonna work great

00:21:10 ◼   ► because for many people and for a while

00:21:11 ◼   ► it worked ok but then the market moved

00:21:15 ◼   ► over time they they found that you know

00:21:17 ◼   ► they ran into competition and other

00:21:18 ◼   ► another issues and it didn't work out so

00:21:21 ◼   ► well in the end so one thing that I

00:21:23 ◼   ► would definitely say is to basically

00:21:26 ◼   ► keep your mind and options open on

00:21:29 ◼   ► pricing and and how you make money

00:21:31 ◼   ► because even if you pick a certain model

00:21:34 ◼   ► at the beginning you will probably have

00:21:36 ◼   ► to change that and what and what you

00:21:38 ◼   ► think is the way to go might not be the

00:21:41 ◼   ► way to go 1 2 3 years from now you know

00:21:44 ◼   ► I'm now in that point with overcast

00:21:46 ◼   ► where I'm making enough that it's you

00:21:49 ◼   ► know it's it's okay

00:21:50 ◼   ► I'm not losing money on it but I would

00:21:52 ◼   ► ideally like to be making more to really

00:21:55 ◼   ► justify pouring even more time and

00:21:57 ◼   ► resources into it and having a little

00:21:58 ◼   ► bit more a little bit more Headroom on

00:22:00 ◼   ► the budget and so I got to figure out

00:22:03 ◼   ► something else like that's it like I'm

00:22:04 ◼   ► not I'm not just gonna sit here and do

00:22:06 ◼   ► nothing I got to figure something else

00:22:07 ◼   ► now the paid upfront model I think works

00:22:10 ◼   ► really well if your business model is I

00:22:13 ◼   ► don't care about next year

00:22:15 ◼   ► and there's lots of legitimate cases

00:22:17 ◼   ► where that is where that is true like if

00:22:19 ◼   ► you're making like a little special

00:22:20 ◼   ► utility app that is gonna be probably

00:22:22 ◼   ► not able to justify a whole bunch of

00:22:24 ◼   ► your ongoing time and your ongoing

00:22:25 ◼   ► maintenance ongoing updates and you're

00:22:28 ◼   ► maybe gonna have a lot of those that

00:22:29 ◼   ► probably makes more sense to be like all

00:22:31 ◼   ► right paid upfront it's a simple thing

00:22:32 ◼   ► people are gonna like buy it use it once

00:22:33 ◼   ► or twice and then their need for it will

00:22:35 ◼   ► go away or whatever else that's fine but

00:22:38 ◼   ► if you if you're trying to make

00:22:39 ◼   ► something that's gonna be like a

00:22:40 ◼   ► Productivity app that people are going

00:22:42 ◼   ► to ideally use every day for years

00:22:44 ◼   ► you're going to need a different model

00:22:46 ◼   ► because I think we've seen over and over

00:22:48 ◼   ► again that paid upfront for that is

00:22:49 ◼   ► really hard to make work yeah and I

00:22:52 ◼   ► think it's also an interesting that

00:22:55 ◼   ► there's there's some interesting

00:22:56 ◼   ► realities I think about the app store

00:22:57 ◼   ► too and I've noticed these in myself and

00:23:00 ◼   ► this is like a tricky thing too

00:23:03 ◼   ► in some ways I feel embarrassed about

00:23:04 ◼   ► talking about it but I noticed my in my

00:23:06 ◼   ► own when I'm in the App Store like now I

00:23:08 ◼   ► go to you know on my iPhone I open up

00:23:10 ◼   ► the App Store if I'm looking for an app

00:23:13 ◼   ► and I see that it's paid I have

00:23:16 ◼   ► tremendous reluctance to download it me

00:23:19 ◼   ► too

00:23:20 ◼   ► I feel bad about saying that because I'm

00:23:23 ◼   ► a software developer I'm an indie

00:23:25 ◼   ► software developer like I make my living

00:23:26 ◼   ► from people giving me money in the App

00:23:28 ◼   ► Store but I don't want to give anyone

00:23:30 ◼   ► else money and I think the reality about

00:23:33 ◼   ► that that I'm like which is where it's

00:23:34 ◼   ► like that's kind of in some ways a

00:23:35 ◼   ► profound thing to observe about myself

00:23:37 ◼   ► is if I don't want to do it why would

00:23:40 ◼   ► anyone else want to do it and give me

00:23:42 ◼   ► money like that's just the experience

00:23:44 ◼   ► we've had in the App Store and then you

00:23:46 ◼   ► could unpack like thousands of different

00:23:48 ◼   ► reasons why that's the case why I don't

00:23:51 ◼   ► want to pay money for apps in the App

00:23:53 ◼   ► Store anymore you know maybe it had been

00:23:55 ◼   ► burned in the past there's there's such

00:23:57 ◼   ► incredible competition there's a lots of

00:23:59 ◼   ► free alternatives you know it's like

00:24:00 ◼   ► unless it is an app essentially unless

00:24:02 ◼   ► the app was made by a friend of mine or

00:24:04 ◼   ► I absolutely have to have it for some

00:24:07 ◼   ► reason I would probably won't buy it I

00:24:09 ◼   ► will find a free alternative and that's

00:24:11 ◼   ► just like the reality and I could have

00:24:14 ◼   ► some high-minded ideals that oh no it's

00:24:16 ◼   ► you know a devalue software it makes our

00:24:17 ◼   ► craft less special or valuable or

00:24:20 ◼   ► whatever you could kind of imagine but

00:24:22 ◼   ► like that's the reality that when I look

00:24:24 ◼   ► at something I'm like mmm maybe not or

00:24:26 ◼   ► maybe I don't need it that much and

00:24:27 ◼   ► and having that honesty about myself I

00:24:30 ◼   ► think helps me understand my customers

00:24:32 ◼   ► better and understand the realities of

00:24:33 ◼   ► the store that we're selling in and

00:24:37 ◼   ► that's instructive I think that having

00:24:40 ◼   ► that feeling of saying like you know if

00:24:42 ◼   ► I'm not willing to provide for you know

00:24:44 ◼   ► pay for software hmm maybe why should I

00:24:46 ◼   ► expect that someone else would and that

00:24:48 ◼   ► leads me to you know now increasingly

00:24:50 ◼   ► like my focus is on you know free apps

00:24:52 ◼   ► and finding ways to make money in those

00:24:55 ◼   ► and I think overall that's better free

00:24:58 ◼   ► is great because it makes it there were

00:25:01 ◼   ► saying earlier where it gets

00:25:02 ◼   ► incrementally harder to find that next

00:25:07 ◼   ► customer in some ways a free app has the

00:25:08 ◼   ► opposite been because it's as you go it

00:25:12 ◼   ► starts you know you it has a much more

00:25:15 ◼   ► frictionless spreading phenomenon where

00:25:18 ◼   ► you know if someone if someone has your

00:25:19 ◼   ► app they like it they can tell someone

00:25:22 ◼   ► else and there's no cost for that

00:25:23 ◼   ► exchange it's not this like well here's

00:25:26 ◼   ► this app I really like it you know but

00:25:28 ◼   ► it there's no but there's not like but

00:25:30 ◼   ► it's a couple bucks like there's not the

00:25:31 ◼   ► sort of this apology that you have to

00:25:33 ◼   ► add to that if you're recommending it to

00:25:34 ◼   ► somebody yeah this is a barrier that

00:25:36 ◼   ► people have to have to decide whether

00:25:38 ◼   ► they want to go over or not I mean

00:25:39 ◼   ► ideally you don't want to put big

00:25:41 ◼   ► barriers in front of people before they

00:25:43 ◼   ► even have seen how good your app is

00:25:45 ◼   ► exactly like I mean you you want and I

00:25:49 ◼   ► think even there's this funny theater of

00:25:51 ◼   ► I feel like I have to keep in mind that

00:25:55 ◼   ► while I'm sitting in my office working

00:25:57 ◼   ► in Xcode making something it's so easy

00:25:59 ◼   ► to almost to like become precious about

00:26:02 ◼   ► my software and to like it over

00:26:04 ◼   ► emphasize what it is that something

00:26:06 ◼   ► could feel like if you know I've poured

00:26:08 ◼   ► my heart into this it's a you know it

00:26:10 ◼   ► you can make you can give it these

00:26:12 ◼   ► feelings that aren't really constructive

00:26:15 ◼   ► where at the end of the day it's just

00:26:16 ◼   ► it's an app that's going to be going

00:26:17 ◼   ► into a store with 2 million other apps

00:26:19 ◼   ► and is special and unique and as much of

00:26:22 ◼   ► a special snowflake is you feel like it

00:26:24 ◼   ► is it's probably not as specialists you

00:26:27 ◼   ► think it actually is and so being

00:26:30 ◼   ► realistic about that and understanding

00:26:31 ◼   ► that you know people aren't going to

00:26:33 ◼   ► want to just pay you money because they

00:26:35 ◼   ► your app is special like they won't know

00:26:37 ◼   ► it's special and even if they do know

00:26:39 ◼   ► it's special they may not care

00:26:41 ◼   ► I couldn't said it better myself I mean

00:26:43 ◼   ► it this is a very competitive market

00:26:45 ◼   ► it's so competitive there's so many

00:26:48 ◼   ► other apps out there you have to

00:26:50 ◼   ► convince people that they need yours and

00:26:52 ◼   ► if there's any barriers in front of that

00:26:55 ◼   ► they're going to cost you dearly and you

00:26:58 ◼   ► have to make money somewhere and it used

00:27:01 ◼   ► to be really easy to just put a paid up

00:27:02 ◼   ► front price on it and that worked pretty

00:27:04 ◼   ► well but that was back when the market

00:27:06 ◼   ► was less competitive and people were

00:27:08 ◼   ► more exploratory with how they spent

00:27:10 ◼   ► their money on the app store people

00:27:11 ◼   ► didn't people weren't already like kind

00:27:13 ◼   ► of burnt out on spending money on apps

00:27:15 ◼   ► to try them out that worked very well

00:27:17 ◼   ► for maybe two years at the be in the App

00:27:19 ◼   ► Store now it's different and how it's

00:27:22 ◼   ► harder it's a mature market there's way

00:27:24 ◼   ► more competition it's just harder and it

00:27:27 ◼   ► can be done but it's also going to be

00:27:29 ◼   ► very hard to do it in a way that can

00:27:32 ◼   ► fund somebody's lifestyle to be a

00:27:35 ◼   ► full-time job to work on a basic iOS app

00:27:38 ◼   ► that charges a couple bucks like you had

00:27:40 ◼   ► there has to be more to your strategy

00:27:42 ◼   ► than that and it's not easy and it's

00:27:44 ◼   ► getting a harder every year and there is

00:27:47 ◼   ► still a market there but you have to be

00:27:49 ◼   ► really savvy at trying to get it you

00:27:53 ◼   ► have to try a lot of things you have to

00:27:55 ◼   ► be willing to challenge lots of

00:27:56 ◼   ► assumptions and you have to be willing

00:27:58 ◼   ► to swallow your pride on a lot of the

00:28:00 ◼   ► stuff and it's unfortunate but that's

00:28:02 ◼   ► the reality of a very competitive low

00:28:04 ◼   ► profit business yeah I think those are

00:28:06 ◼   ► those two things that you just pointed

00:28:08 ◼   ► out are the key to all of this it's have

00:28:10 ◼   ► being creative and flexible about

00:28:12 ◼   ► approaches and then being humble about

00:28:14 ◼   ► your approach to things and not over

00:28:17 ◼   ► emphasizing or over exaggerating what

00:28:20 ◼   ► you're doing exactly I mean like I've

00:28:22 ◼   ► thought about like putting ads and

00:28:23 ◼   ► overcast like shed something I never

00:28:25 ◼   ► would have thought of years ago but now

00:28:27 ◼   ► I have a situation where I make no money

00:28:29 ◼   ► from 97% of the user base so I could

00:28:32 ◼   ► make some possibly even good money from

00:28:35 ◼   ► them if I put ads in it it's something

00:28:36 ◼   ► that I was all snobby about before but

00:28:38 ◼   ► now I'm actively considering it because

00:28:40 ◼   ► again like why should I leave that

00:28:42 ◼   ► option on or off the table whatever they

00:28:44 ◼   ► why should I not consider that option

00:28:46 ◼   ► because you know I once found them kind

00:28:49 ◼   ► of annoying like could is it possible to

00:28:51 ◼   ► do it well I don't know but we could

00:28:53 ◼   ► talk about that different episode when

00:28:54 ◼   ► we have more time

00:28:54 ◼   ► but that's you know you have to consider

00:28:56 ◼   ► everything now because it's it's so

00:28:59 ◼   ► competitive make no assumptions alright

00:29:03 ◼   ► and with that we are out of time thanks

00:29:05 ◼   ► a lot for listening everybody and we

00:29:06 ◼   ► will talk to you next week bye