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Under the Radar

Under the Radar 38: Psychological Tricks

 

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show but

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS and recently Mac app

00:00:04 ◼   ► development I'm Marco Arment and I'm

00:00:06 ◼   ► David Smith under the radar is never

00:00:08 ◼   ► longer than 30 minutes so let's get

00:00:10 ◼   ► started

00:00:11 ◼   ► so today we wanted to dive into a little

00:00:14 ◼   ► bit about talking about the best term

00:00:17 ◼   ► for it is probably cycled the

00:00:18 ◼   ► psychological tricks that are often

00:00:21 ◼   ► employed in apps to boosting retention

00:00:24 ◼   ► engagement addictiveness or things are

00:00:28 ◼   ► you trying to boost it in-app purchases

00:00:29 ◼   ► a lot of these things you often see in

00:00:32 ◼   ► in a like in these kind of in-app

00:00:35 ◼   ► purchase focused applications these you

00:00:37 ◼   ► know sort of pay to play games or things

00:00:39 ◼   ► i've noticed a lot of them in like I was

00:00:41 ◼   ► recently trying out took them on go and

00:00:43 ◼   ► I kept seeing these kind of these trends

00:00:46 ◼   ► in these tricks and these things that

00:00:47 ◼   ► are going on into it and our point in

00:00:49 ◼   ► this is definitely ought to be there's

00:00:50 ◼   ► F&T atopic to talk through about like

00:00:52 ◼   ► the moralizing part of that of like

00:00:53 ◼   ► sometimes these things can get kind of

00:00:55 ◼   ► abusive or really awkward and the way

00:00:58 ◼   ► that they're being used but I think

00:00:59 ◼   ► moreover woder is an interesting topic

00:01:01 ◼   ► as app developers was to think through

00:01:04 ◼   ► how these different ask these different

00:01:06 ◼   ► tricks that you can do can be used

00:01:08 ◼   ► positively in your applications you know

00:01:10 ◼   ► there's some positive things that you

00:01:11 ◼   ► can do when you're aware of these and

00:01:13 ◼   ► also it's kind of a strange experience

00:01:15 ◼   ► that I've had myself that when I started

00:01:17 ◼   ► kind of researching and looking into

00:01:19 ◼   ► these types of topics is that once

00:01:21 ◼   ► you're aware of them you start noticing

00:01:23 ◼   ► them in a lot of different places and

00:01:26 ◼   ► it's kind of like if you ever see

00:01:27 ◼   ► someone do a magic trick and then they

00:01:30 ◼   ► show you how it's done and then they do

00:01:32 ◼   ► the trick again the second time you see

00:01:35 ◼   ► it it has a very different experience

00:01:37 ◼   ► and it can still be interesting and

00:01:38 ◼   ► compelling but it's a it's it's overall

00:01:41 ◼   ► it's a it's nice to have that awareness

00:01:42 ◼   ► of what's going on and she knows we're

00:01:44 ◼   ► gonna kind of talk through some of these

00:01:45 ◼   ► things and I think the first one I

00:01:47 ◼   ► wanted to dive in and talk about is the

00:01:49 ◼   ► concept of loss aversion and so this is

00:01:52 ◼   ► something that you it's like a

00:01:53 ◼   ► psychological phenomena and where people

00:01:55 ◼   ► are much more affected by the prospect

00:01:58 ◼   ► of losing something they have then the

00:02:02 ◼   ► prospect of gaining something new or you

00:02:05 ◼   ► can phrase it in a lot of different ways

00:02:06 ◼   ► but essentially it's like if you have

00:02:07 ◼   ► something or you feel like you have

00:02:09 ◼   ► something you will work way harder to

00:02:11 ◼   ► keep that thing

00:02:13 ◼   ► then you would in regaining it or hadn't

00:02:16 ◼   ► gaining it in the first place and so

00:02:17 ◼   ► you'll see this so often in games like

00:02:19 ◼   ► the first time I remember ever seeing

00:02:20 ◼   ► this sort of concept really driven home

00:02:23 ◼   ► for me was in a game the first time in

00:02:26 ◼   ► like an in-app purchase game where

00:02:27 ◼   ► you're going down here you're doing your

00:02:29 ◼   ► run and you get to the end you die and

00:02:31 ◼   ► the whole thing pops up and it says

00:02:33 ◼   ► would you like to continue for three

00:02:36 ◼   ► crystals or whatever it is like them

00:02:38 ◼   ► whatever the made-up Smurf berry thing

00:02:40 ◼   ► that they're they're using in the game

00:02:42 ◼   ► and all but they're directly doing their

00:02:45 ◼   ► is they're tying in to loss aversion

00:02:47 ◼   ► because you've gotten to this point in

00:02:50 ◼   ► the game you know you oh wow this is my

00:02:51 ◼   ► new high score this is this thing that

00:02:52 ◼   ► I've worked towards I want to keep it I

00:02:55 ◼   ► want to keep it going and you'll be so

00:02:57 ◼   ► much more apt to do it at that moment

00:02:59 ◼   ► then you would to just start again and

00:03:01 ◼   ► try and get there get there in the same

00:03:03 ◼   ► place and as that can be a little bit

00:03:05 ◼   ► tricky and a little bit perhaps not a

00:03:07 ◼   ► not ideal but you can also on the

00:03:08 ◼   ► positive side think of something like

00:03:10 ◼   ► like streaks in a fitness app so in my

00:03:13 ◼   ► app activity plus plus I have this thing

00:03:15 ◼   ► where it tracks how long you've had you

00:03:17 ◼   ► know each hits your standing goal or

00:03:19 ◼   ► your move goal or your exercise goal and

00:03:22 ◼   ► that you don't want to break a streak

00:03:24 ◼   ► because you feel like you have it and

00:03:26 ◼   ► you don't want to lose it and the reason

00:03:29 ◼   ► that that is so said like the concept of

00:03:31 ◼   ► keeping a streak going is so effective

00:03:33 ◼   ► is this concept of loss aversion it's

00:03:35 ◼   ► this weird feeling of people just don't

00:03:38 ◼   ► like giving up things they have and

00:03:40 ◼   ► often since some ways irrationally if

00:03:42 ◼   ► you compare the effort that which

00:03:44 ◼   ► someone will go to keep something they

00:03:45 ◼   ► have versus just you know gaining it

00:03:49 ◼   ► again or gaining it in the first place

00:03:50 ◼   ► and so it's kind of a weird aspect is

00:03:54 ◼   ► this something that you've ever run into

00:03:55 ◼   ► like can you think of apps where you

00:03:57 ◼   ► feel yourself being manipulated by loss

00:03:59 ◼   ► aversion oh yeah

00:04:01 ◼   ► Mario 3 because in Mario 3 the best

00:04:04 ◼   ► possible powerup in the game is the

00:04:06 ◼   ► hammer suit also called the sledgehammer

00:04:08 ◼   ► suit the hammer Brothers suit whatever

00:04:09 ◼   ► it is and you get like one of these in

00:04:12 ◼   ► the whole game you're lucky if you get

00:04:13 ◼   ► one and just like any other powerup if

00:04:16 ◼   ► you get hit you lose it that's it and

00:04:18 ◼   ► the sledgehammer suit is so much better

00:04:20 ◼   ► than anything else in the game is like

00:04:21 ◼   ► those sledgehammers can kill everything

00:04:23 ◼   ► ghosts even like the big thumps like in

00:04:26 ◼   ► the

00:04:26 ◼   ► the Catholic they kill everything it's

00:04:28 ◼   ► amazing and you get one maybe in the

00:04:32 ◼   ► whole game and so you gotta like really

00:04:34 ◼   ► save it up and like I'm so afraid of

00:04:36 ◼   ► using it and then just getting hit and

00:04:37 ◼   ► losing it that I often will go through a

00:04:40 ◼   ► whole game and forget I even have it and

00:04:41 ◼   ► never even use it

00:04:42 ◼   ► sure I know that's total the Rockets

00:04:45 ◼   ► yeah it's fine it's this is the weird

00:04:48 ◼   ► thing like people act irrationally about

00:04:51 ◼   ► like this fear you have of losing

00:04:53 ◼   ► something you have and it's a powerful

00:04:57 ◼   ► tool I think as as developers for us to

00:05:00 ◼   ► like you can think of in our apps like

00:05:02 ◼   ► are there things that we can do where we

00:05:03 ◼   ► make people feel like they have

00:05:04 ◼   ► something that they don't want to lose

00:05:07 ◼   ► because it really can be strongly

00:05:10 ◼   ► impactful like it's this really weird

00:05:12 ◼   ► conditioning thing that people really

00:05:15 ◼   ► don't want to give up what they have and

00:05:17 ◼   ► whether that's yeah it's like I think of

00:05:20 ◼   ► things there's so many things in games

00:05:21 ◼   ► where that same kind of thing happens

00:05:24 ◼   ► where you're trying to make someone

00:05:27 ◼   ► scared of losing something they have I

00:05:30 ◼   ► mean I think you're even like in Pokemon

00:05:31 ◼   ► go is the where I noticed this recently

00:05:33 ◼   ► was they have this this the thing where

00:05:35 ◼   ► like you discover a Pokemon yeah that's

00:05:38 ◼   ► great but if you don't like feed it

00:05:40 ◼   ► raspberries and use the fancy balls it

00:05:42 ◼   ► may run away and having something appear

00:05:45 ◼   ► and then disappear is way more painful

00:05:49 ◼   ► than never finding it which is it what

00:05:52 ◼   ► kind of a weird thing but it's that that

00:05:54 ◼   ► kind of behavior you can totally see the

00:05:57 ◼   ► way like a way that game like that is

00:05:58 ◼   ► structured is entirely to manipulate you

00:06:01 ◼   ► into making sure that you always feel

00:06:02 ◼   ► like you have to use all your things

00:06:04 ◼   ► because you never want to lose the thing

00:06:05 ◼   ► that you just got and that's kind of

00:06:10 ◼   ► weird I don't know like it's it's a

00:06:12 ◼   ► strange thing how people just mindset

00:06:14 ◼   ► just can be they can act against what is

00:06:16 ◼   ► sort of their rational best interest I

00:06:18 ◼   ► suppose you know you see as you said

00:06:20 ◼   ► like you know once you notice this you

00:06:22 ◼   ► kind of see it everywhere like this is

00:06:24 ◼   ► in so many games and you know app

00:06:27 ◼   ► developers you know that this is

00:06:28 ◼   ► relevant to non game developers to some

00:06:31 ◼   ► degree as well I mean obviously a lot of

00:06:33 ◼   ► these kind of tricks or psychological

00:06:36 ◼   ► plays obviously they tend to have I

00:06:39 ◼   ► think the most direct

00:06:40 ◼   ► uses in games especially in that

00:06:43 ◼   ► purchase driven game as you said but

00:06:45 ◼   ► there are certainly places and apps that

00:06:47 ◼   ► you can use a lot of this stuff to like

00:06:49 ◼   ► you know loss aversion is is kind of the

00:06:51 ◼   ► idea between like a time-limited trial

00:06:53 ◼   ► where you you can you can try out this

00:06:56 ◼   ► app and have these great features but

00:06:58 ◼   ► then after you know 30 days or whatever

00:07:00 ◼   ► those features stop working and you have

00:07:02 ◼   ► to pay and buy the app if you want to

00:07:04 ◼   ► keep using those so it's like you had

00:07:05 ◼   ► them you know how good they are and then

00:07:08 ◼   ► oh now they're gone you got you better

00:07:10 ◼   ► pay you know that's it can work the same

00:07:12 ◼   ► way there for us oh sure I mean even in

00:07:15 ◼   ► some ways I makes me think a little bit

00:07:16 ◼   ► about though it's part of what makes

00:07:18 ◼   ► subscription pricing compelling where

00:07:22 ◼   ► you've built up this sense which is sort

00:07:24 ◼   ► of like the lock-in kind of concept but

00:07:27 ◼   ► if you build up a you know like I have

00:07:30 ◼   ► an RSS sinking system that I run and if

00:07:32 ◼   ► you build up all your they have all my

00:07:34 ◼   ► RSS feeds tied into it and like part of

00:07:38 ◼   ► why you may keep paying for it isn't

00:07:40 ◼   ► necessarily because you use it but you

00:07:42 ◼   ► don't want to lose the ability to use it

00:07:44 ◼   ► or you don't want to but like you've

00:07:46 ◼   ► built up a collection of notes in

00:07:49 ◼   ► Evernote or something and you don't want

00:07:51 ◼   ► to you keep paying almost like your

00:07:54 ◼   ► plebs like you're paying like a ransom

00:07:56 ◼   ► to this thing because you don't want it

00:07:58 ◼   ► just like oh well if I stop paying all

00:08:00 ◼   ► the stuff that I've built up over time

00:08:01 ◼   ► will just go away and you may that above

00:08:04 ◼   ► what it actually is reasonable to value

00:08:06 ◼   ► it at because you for you don't to lose

00:08:08 ◼   ► it and like it's interesting that like

00:08:11 ◼   ► it sort of digs into these really deep

00:08:15 ◼   ► parts of P of you where you start to

00:08:16 ◼   ► like act irrationally totally and so the

00:08:20 ◼   ► next one I wanted to talk about and this

00:08:22 ◼   ► is a kind of a fascinating one when you

00:08:24 ◼   ► actually sort of get into read like this

00:08:25 ◼   ► is a weird one almost as a parent I've

00:08:27 ◼   ► noticed myself since I was like did the

00:08:29 ◼   ► research into kind of how reinforcement

00:08:32 ◼   ► was the topic which is no I'm the

00:08:35 ◼   ► concept of how if you're trying to

00:08:37 ◼   ► condition a behavior into something or

00:08:41 ◼   ► someone you know so you have this sort

00:08:44 ◼   ► of experience and reward cycle where you

00:08:46 ◼   ► know if you're maybe this maybe this

00:08:48 ◼   ► rather than getting into parenting so

00:08:50 ◼   ► you think it's like taking care of a dog

00:08:51 ◼   ► or something right like the dog does the

00:08:53 ◼   ► you know you tell it to sit

00:08:55 ◼   ► it's it's you give it a treat you tell

00:08:56 ◼   ► it to sit it's it's you give it a treat

00:08:58 ◼   ► like that's a very simple reinforcement

00:09:00 ◼   ► cycle like the direct positive they do

00:09:03 ◼   ► the action they get the read they get

00:09:05 ◼   ► the reward but the funny thing is in

00:09:08 ◼   ► there's a lot of sort of research that

00:09:09 ◼   ► backs this up is that the strongest and

00:09:12 ◼   ► most powerful form of conditioning is

00:09:15 ◼   ► where you have they call variable

00:09:19 ◼   ► reinforcement where it is still

00:09:21 ◼   ► predictable insofar as the average

00:09:24 ◼   ► number of reinforcing events is sort of

00:09:27 ◼   ► still somewhat constant but the timing

00:09:31 ◼   ► in which they happen is not the same you

00:09:34 ◼   ► know so in the example of trying to

00:09:35 ◼   ► train a drug say if ever if roughly

00:09:37 ◼   ► every third time the dog sits you were

00:09:40 ◼   ► to give it a give it a treat but if you

00:09:44 ◼   ► did it on exactly every third and then

00:09:47 ◼   ► it's much as a much weaker reinforcer

00:09:49 ◼   ► then just on average giving it every

00:09:51 ◼   ► third and this is the concept of science

00:09:55 ◼   ► behind slot machines and many many

00:09:57 ◼   ► things where you if you add just a

00:10:00 ◼   ► little bit of randomness in it so that

00:10:01 ◼   ► the person can get the feeling that on

00:10:04 ◼   ► average they're being fairly rewarded

00:10:05 ◼   ► because if I if it doesn't feel fair

00:10:08 ◼   ► then it's kind of self-defeating because

00:10:11 ◼   ► it's it's consistent enough that it

00:10:13 ◼   ► feels fair but on any particular

00:10:14 ◼   ► opportunity they don't know if they're

00:10:16 ◼   ► going to be rewarded or not it is really

00:10:20 ◼   ► powerful for creating that kind of

00:10:22 ◼   ► classically addictive kind of behavior

00:10:24 ◼   ► where you want to keep trying the the

00:10:28 ◼   ► reinforced activity and you keep trying

00:10:30 ◼   ► and trying and trying in in the hopes

00:10:32 ◼   ► that you'll get it but you never know

00:10:34 ◼   ► when you're going to get it and so

00:10:35 ◼   ► creates this you know it's the cycle and

00:10:37 ◼   ► you know you can imagine this on the

00:10:39 ◼   ► more you know tricky side with a lot of

00:10:42 ◼   ► a lot of things in apps where you kind

00:10:44 ◼   ► of you get an item that will be

00:10:46 ◼   ► upgradeable or has some other value down

00:10:49 ◼   ► the road or like in Pokemon go there was

00:10:52 ◼   ► the thing with eggs where like you get

00:10:53 ◼   ► an egg and you never know what's in it

00:10:55 ◼   ► sometimes it's gonna be something boring

00:10:57 ◼   ► and sometimes it's going to be awesome

00:10:59 ◼   ► and as long as it happen as long as it's

00:11:01 ◼   ► consistent enough that you feel like

00:11:02 ◼   ► it's fair you'll keep trying it in a

00:11:04 ◼   ► more strong way but even in like in a

00:11:07 ◼   ► weird way on the positive side I was

00:11:08 ◼   ► thinking about in a lot of my apps I

00:11:11 ◼   ► have confetti to celebrate when you hit

00:11:13 ◼   ► your goals and in a weird way I'm using

00:11:17 ◼   ► variable reinforcement to get people to

00:11:19 ◼   ► keep opening my app because they don't

00:11:23 ◼   ► know if they've hit their goal when they

00:11:25 ◼   ► open the app you know every it's like if

00:11:28 ◼   ► the whole point of the app is to show

00:11:30 ◼   ► them how many steps they've taken and so

00:11:33 ◼   ► as someone goes around their day every

00:11:34 ◼   ► time you open the app you have this

00:11:36 ◼   ► feeling of like you know it's like

00:11:38 ◼   ► you're pulling the arm on the slot

00:11:39 ◼   ► machine in some ways and saying like

00:11:40 ◼   ► have I done it yet have I done it yet

00:11:42 ◼   ► have it done it yet I did hurray but

00:11:46 ◼   ► that's it's variable you never know when

00:11:48 ◼   ► it's gonna happen you know if it's like

00:11:49 ◼   ► the third time you open the app and

00:11:51 ◼   ► every day you got confetti well it's not

00:11:52 ◼   ► really it it wouldn't be nearly as

00:11:54 ◼   ► compelling and so you is this but if as

00:11:57 ◼   ► long as you add that variability that

00:11:58 ◼   ► randomness into it is where it starts to

00:12:01 ◼   ► get really interesting that's amazing

00:12:03 ◼   ► it's gif and see even that I mean like

00:12:05 ◼   ► the way you're doing it is a little bit

00:12:07 ◼   ► different than like a like a slot

00:12:08 ◼   ► machine kind of thing like the way

00:12:09 ◼   ► you're doing it is based on reaching a

00:12:12 ◼   ► goal whereas like the the just kind of

00:12:15 ◼   ► randomly fail and randomly give people

00:12:17 ◼   ► what they want sometimes that that just

00:12:19 ◼   ► feels a little bit dirty to be I don't

00:12:21 ◼   ► know I mean it's kind of the problem all

00:12:23 ◼   ► these things kind of feel a little bit

00:12:25 ◼   ► dirty if you think about them as like a

00:12:27 ◼   ► way to manipulate people but you know

00:12:29 ◼   ► the with a lot of these things there are

00:12:31 ◼   ► obviously like ways to do it in a way

00:12:34 ◼   ► that makes that let you sleep at night

00:12:36 ◼   ► so you know with this this though I I

00:12:39 ◼   ► have a hard time coming up with those

00:12:41 ◼   ► ways that aren't actually driven by

00:12:43 ◼   ► things that are within the user to

00:12:45 ◼   ► control in reality like your app sure

00:12:47 ◼   ► and that's the thing that's so

00:12:49 ◼   ► interesting about this is a topic that I

00:12:51 ◼   ► kind of found fascinating as a developer

00:12:53 ◼   ► because it's like if you can it's like

00:12:56 ◼   ► if you can be aware of these things and

00:12:57 ◼   ► find ways to judiciously and responsibly

00:13:00 ◼   ► use them in your app it can be really

00:13:02 ◼   ► compelling like that's I mean in many

00:13:05 ◼   ► ways this is what makes things like

00:13:07 ◼   ► Facebook or Twitter or Instagram

00:13:09 ◼   ► effective it's the same this exact same

00:13:11 ◼   ► concept where

00:13:12 ◼   ► you keep going to the thing in the hope

00:13:14 ◼   ► like it's like you never know if you're

00:13:16 ◼   ► gonna open up Twitter and it's just some

00:13:19 ◼   ► it's kind of like more boring or not

00:13:22 ◼   ► interesting to you but every now and

00:13:24 ◼   ► then you get this really interesting

00:13:25 ◼   ► exciting thing or you feel like wow I'm

00:13:27 ◼   ► the first person to know this things it

00:13:28 ◼   ► happened just a moment ago and that

00:13:31 ◼   ► conditions you don't want to go into

00:13:32 ◼   ► there and in a lot of apps like that can

00:13:34 ◼   ► be a useful thing that can be a helpful

00:13:37 ◼   ► thing to actually think back to thank us

00:13:40 ◼   ► my first WWDC hack in 2009 I remember I

00:13:44 ◼   ► signed up for one of the UI design labs

00:13:46 ◼   ► and the person who was you know looking

00:13:50 ◼   ► at my apps design one of his comments

00:13:52 ◼   ► was do you have a place in your app that

00:13:56 ◼   ► has a constantly changing sort of set of

00:14:02 ◼   ► items or a set of anything because if

00:14:05 ◼   ► you do you can start to even create this

00:14:08 ◼   ► this habit and this you know this

00:14:10 ◼   ► pattern that people will start to do to

00:14:12 ◼   ► go and check it you know it's in this

00:14:13 ◼   ► case if there's an audiobook app and

00:14:15 ◼   ► it's like he wasn't wondering if I

00:14:16 ◼   ► should start to do something where you

00:14:18 ◼   ► know each day I put a new you know a

00:14:22 ◼   ► particular book and spotlight it or

00:14:24 ◼   ► something and it creates that same

00:14:26 ◼   ► pattern it's where you even if sometimes

00:14:28 ◼   ► you'll go there and there's nothing it's

00:14:30 ◼   ► it's like oh it's not for me it's not

00:14:31 ◼   ► for me oh that's interesting I've never

00:14:33 ◼   ► seen that the first is you have that one

00:14:35 ◼   ► experience of going there and being

00:14:37 ◼   ► rewarded for it it starts to build that

00:14:39 ◼   ► habit and starts to build it in and that

00:14:41 ◼   ► can be a good thing but like this one in

00:14:43 ◼   ► particular is really worrying to me a

00:14:46 ◼   ► lot of ways and as a side note it always

00:14:48 ◼   ► kind of bothers me when I see app

00:14:50 ◼   ► descriptions in the App Store where it

00:14:52 ◼   ► has like super addictive as listed as a

00:14:56 ◼   ► positive bullet point like you know what

00:15:00 ◼   ► I'm talking about you'll have the little

00:15:01 ◼   ► thing and it's like this it's like an

00:15:02 ◼   ► anti ad like being like being on the top

00:15:04 ◼   ► grossing list I think is also kind of an

00:15:05 ◼   ► anti ad four-and-a-half is it's like oh

00:15:07 ◼   ► if I've down was that I'm probably gonna

00:15:09 ◼   ► spend a lot of money

00:15:10 ◼   ► I always just drove me crazy or it's the

00:15:13 ◼   ► guilty these things and it's like

00:15:15 ◼   ► warning super addictive and like it's

00:15:18 ◼   ► not really a warning in the way that

00:15:19 ◼   ► it's like a health and safety label like

00:15:20 ◼   ► they're trying to pitch it is like he's

00:15:22 ◼   ► like try this app you'll get super

00:15:23 ◼   ► addicted to it like

00:15:25 ◼   ► translated your head as warning huge

00:15:27 ◼   ► ripoff it's like I don't want like the

00:15:29 ◼   ► last thing I the last thing my life

00:15:30 ◼   ► needs is another is like something to be

00:15:33 ◼   ► addicted to like that's that's not ever

00:15:35 ◼   ► going to be a good thing in my life and

00:15:38 ◼   ► so that's definitely something that I

00:15:39 ◼   ► I'd never find like this in particular

00:15:41 ◼   ► like you start to look out for it where

00:15:43 ◼   ► anytime there's kind of a random random

00:15:45 ◼   ► way in which you're reinforced it's like

00:15:47 ◼   ► oh no

00:15:47 ◼   ► take a step back like I'm being messed

00:15:50 ◼   ► with some someone someone is

00:15:51 ◼   ► manipulating me in a way that I may or

00:15:53 ◼   ► may not actually like exactly alright we

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00:17:11 ◼   ► under the radar and all of relay fm

00:17:13 ◼   ► alright the next one of these things

00:17:15 ◼   ► that I thought would be fun to talk to

00:17:17 ◼   ► dive into a little bit is not as much of

00:17:20 ◼   ► a trick like the first two bar but is

00:17:22 ◼   ► something that is a psychological

00:17:23 ◼   ► phenomenon that is pervasive in people

00:17:25 ◼   ► and that is impatience oh boy so this is

00:17:29 ◼   ► something that I start to notice and

00:17:31 ◼   ► obviously none of us like waiting right

00:17:34 ◼   ► like we always feel like we want things

00:17:36 ◼   ► faster better if like faster and

00:17:38 ◼   ► even with less waiting and you see this

00:17:41 ◼   ► in games a lot like I mean you might

00:17:43 ◼   ► also see it in podcast audiences that

00:17:45 ◼   ► only listen to 30-minute podcasts that's

00:17:47 ◼   ► true we may be a particularly impatient

00:17:49 ◼   ► group so maybe this will resonate with

00:17:50 ◼   ► our audience but in a lot of games

00:17:52 ◼   ► you'll have a thing where this is

00:17:54 ◼   ► concept of like a timeout or a weight or

00:17:56 ◼   ► an energy meter that you have to fill up

00:17:58 ◼   ► and if you don't you know when you've

00:18:00 ◼   ► spent all your energy you have to wait

00:18:01 ◼   ► 24 hours while you recharge you know or

00:18:04 ◼   ► you can pay money to recharge your

00:18:07 ◼   ► energy meter or I don't you know it gets

00:18:10 ◼   ► very convoluted at a certain point but

00:18:11 ◼   ► it's always tying back to this concept

00:18:13 ◼   ► of impatience that we don't want to wait

00:18:15 ◼   ► that we don't like to have a timeout or

00:18:17 ◼   ► anything like if there's something that

00:18:18 ◼   ► we can do to feel like we're saving time

00:18:21 ◼   ► he'll like we will disproportionately

00:18:23 ◼   ► value it but the interesting thing I was

00:18:26 ◼   ► thinking when I was kind of preparing

00:18:27 ◼   ► this episode is I was thing about smart

00:18:29 ◼   ► speed so and when you made smart speed

00:18:33 ◼   ► like it is in it's a straight a

00:18:35 ◼   ► fascinating feature because it taps into

00:18:37 ◼   ► my sense of impatience in such a way

00:18:39 ◼   ► that if I don't listen to audio from run

00:18:42 ◼   ► through sparked speed like I feel like

00:18:45 ◼   ► I'm wasting my time and that is a really

00:18:48 ◼   ► powerful like I remember reading at an

00:18:50 ◼   ► episode of developing respective years a

00:18:51 ◼   ► couple years ago about this where it's

00:18:52 ◼   ► like it's an insidious feature like in

00:18:54 ◼   ► the best possible way that like smart

00:18:56 ◼   ► speed tadka has now like gotten into my

00:18:59 ◼   ► brain such that if I'd listened to

00:19:01 ◼   ► something that isn't smart speed it's

00:19:02 ◼   ► like why am I doing this I'm wasting

00:19:04 ◼   ► time 10% that could be you know I could

00:19:06 ◼   ► have 10% more audio listened to in a

00:19:09 ◼   ► particular amount of time because that's

00:19:10 ◼   ► what smarts B does and I wouldn't notice

00:19:12 ◼   ► it because that's the whole cool thing

00:19:14 ◼   ► with smart speed you know just shortens

00:19:16 ◼   ► those silences that I never hear anyway

00:19:17 ◼   ► it really ruins YouTube for me I have a

00:19:19 ◼   ► very hard time watching youtube videos

00:19:20 ◼   ► because like these are so slow sure I

00:19:24 ◼   ► mean it's true I've definitely had that

00:19:27 ◼   ► same thought when I was going through

00:19:28 ◼   ► WWDC videos I was like oh man I wish I

00:19:30 ◼   ► could smart speed these right and it's

00:19:32 ◼   ► time tapping into that sense of

00:19:33 ◼   ► impatience like we hate waiting we hate

00:19:36 ◼   ► feeling like things couldn't if it could

00:19:38 ◼   ► be faster we want it to be faster I

00:19:40 ◼   ► guess in some ways we could just tap tap

00:19:42 ◼   ► for me like how this is relevant to app

00:19:43 ◼   ► developers perspective it's like well we

00:19:45 ◼   ► could always just make everything faster

00:19:46 ◼   ► like that's a definitely a good thing

00:19:48 ◼   ► that people hate waiting so if we can

00:19:50 ◼   ► make our apps patter if that faster

00:19:51 ◼   ► better perform

00:19:52 ◼   ► and etc then that's cool and if there's

00:19:55 ◼   ► any areas that we can take out weights

00:19:57 ◼   ► then people will definitely like it and

00:19:59 ◼   ► will notice and appreciate that but I

00:20:02 ◼   ► guess on the flip side is if we

00:20:03 ◼   ► introduce artificial weights we can

00:20:06 ◼   ► potentially find ways to make people

00:20:08 ◼   ► work to avoid them

00:20:09 ◼   ► yeah that's ooh have you seen like any

00:20:12 ◼   ► of the big games like I think the worst

00:20:14 ◼   ► ones like the real racing games yes like

00:20:17 ◼   ► you try these games out like on your

00:20:18 ◼   ► Apple TV or something and like oh it's

00:20:20 ◼   ► this free racing game it looks pretty

00:20:21 ◼   ► good all right cool and it's like oh

00:20:23 ◼   ► well congratulations you just bought

00:20:25 ◼   ► this upgrade for your car with these

00:20:27 ◼   ► cool with use coins you earned it's

00:20:29 ◼   ► going to be installed over the next 45

00:20:31 ◼   ► minutes or you can pay more coins and

00:20:34 ◼   ► have it installed faster it's like it's

00:20:35 ◼   ► such man it drives me crazy like

00:20:38 ◼   ► unfortunately I've never gotten too into

00:20:40 ◼   ► these games but I've seen them enough

00:20:41 ◼   ► and every time I see it it just makes me

00:20:43 ◼   ► angry like I just feel like there's

00:20:46 ◼   ► that's just a progress bar to nothing

00:20:47 ◼   ► and it's just a completely artificial

00:20:49 ◼   ► delay insert for no reason other than to

00:20:52 ◼   ► try to get more people to pay more money

00:20:54 ◼   ► for nothing like they're getting nothing

00:20:58 ◼   ► for it's I don't know I mean I say this

00:21:01 ◼   ► as somebody who you know my app is

00:21:03 ◼   ► funded by people paying for nothing but

00:21:05 ◼   ► still like it just feels really

00:21:07 ◼   ► manipulative and wrong to me when I see

00:21:09 ◼   ► it when I see the way these games do it

00:21:10 ◼   ► sure yeah and it's like you can take

00:21:13 ◼   ► advantage of people's impatience in

00:21:15 ◼   ► positive ways like I just said of a

00:21:16 ◼   ► smart speed right like I don't think you

00:21:18 ◼   ► necessarily set out to do it that

00:21:19 ◼   ► specifically in mind but like for me as

00:21:21 ◼   ► a user that's why I why I use over house

00:21:24 ◼   ► to listen to podcasts and I now use it

00:21:27 ◼   ► to listen to audiobooks to like I use it

00:21:29 ◼   ► to listen to everything that I listen to

00:21:30 ◼   ► you that's audio related is I'll put it

00:21:32 ◼   ► into run it through overcast because in

00:21:34 ◼   ► my mind the impatience in me thinks that

00:21:37 ◼   ► if I'm not I'm wasting time and I you

00:21:41 ◼   ► know it has tremendous retention as a

00:21:44 ◼   ► result like I think it's a well it's a

00:21:46 ◼   ► really powerful feature in that way and

00:21:47 ◼   ► if you can find these little hooks that

00:21:49 ◼   ► people make people feel like they're

00:21:50 ◼   ► saving time that's huge but yeah like

00:21:52 ◼   ► you the flip side of it can be so so

00:21:56 ◼   ► awkward where you it's like this

00:21:57 ◼   ► artificial scarcity kind of concept

00:21:59 ◼   ► where people are just like inventing

00:22:01 ◼   ► things that take longer or need more

00:22:05 ◼   ► what Evers to create or use when you

00:22:09 ◼   ► know it's just a it's just a number in a

00:22:12 ◼   ► database somewhere it's not any that

00:22:14 ◼   ► doesn't cost anything to create yeah

00:22:16 ◼   ► like you have to create this out the

00:22:18 ◼   ► sense of artificial scarcity this is

00:22:20 ◼   ► like oh you know we only have so many

00:22:22 ◼   ► installers in the virtual car each car

00:22:24 ◼   ► garage who are able to install new

00:22:26 ◼   ► spoilers like that's really what they're

00:22:30 ◼   ► saying it's like there's only so many of

00:22:31 ◼   ► these virtual guys who are able to run

00:22:33 ◼   ► around like no there's not like you just

00:22:34 ◼   ► you just you know flip flip a number

00:22:38 ◼   ► around and then it's done it's that

00:22:39 ◼   ► doesn't cost you know doesn't take time

00:22:41 ◼   ► or effort so yeah it's like impatience

00:22:44 ◼   ► is it is a tricky tricky one for for me

00:22:47 ◼   ► to feel okay with when you start using

00:22:49 ◼   ► it too much in an app and anything that

00:22:50 ◼   ► isn't other than just like making it

00:22:52 ◼   ► faster yeah like it's more you know like

00:22:53 ◼   ► if you're if you are creating artificial

00:22:56 ◼   ► delays just for the purpose of people

00:22:59 ◼   ► paying you money that feels a little bit

00:23:01 ◼   ► weird and I can't think of a lot of good

00:23:03 ◼   ► ways to do that off the top of my head

00:23:04 ◼   ► whereas if you are taking something that

00:23:06 ◼   ► is slow for like I don't know quote

00:23:09 ◼   ► natural reasons and you are adding value

00:23:13 ◼   ► to the world or something by making that

00:23:15 ◼   ► faster that's obviously a very different

00:23:18 ◼   ► kind of game you're playing like that

00:23:19 ◼   ► that is like adding to the world that is

00:23:21 ◼   ► making things better for people or like

00:23:23 ◼   ► inserting artificial delays so that like

00:23:26 ◼   ► kids beg their parents to let them pay

00:23:28 ◼   ► you more money I don't know that just

00:23:30 ◼   ► feels wrong yeah and there's a lot of

00:23:31 ◼   ► this thing they can go that way but

00:23:33 ◼   ► anyway we can move on to our next slide

00:23:35 ◼   ► we get too too stuck in the weeds of

00:23:37 ◼   ► moralizing about it because it just

00:23:39 ◼   ► makes me sad so I think the last place

00:23:42 ◼   ► we've sort of wanted to touch on is the

00:23:44 ◼   ► in US gets a bit more social I think is

00:23:46 ◼   ► sort of the a combination of sort of the

00:23:48 ◼   ► fear of missing out or what you'd call a

00:23:50 ◼   ► fail I think it's what the hipsters call

00:23:52 ◼   ► FOMO and competition so this is these

00:23:58 ◼   ► are very similar so like at least

00:24:00 ◼   ► fundamentally and I thought I went to

00:24:02 ◼   ► Wikipedia when I was preparing for this

00:24:03 ◼   ► and I thought they had a really

00:24:04 ◼   ► interesting definition of the fear of

00:24:06 ◼   ► missing out and it's there a pervasive

00:24:09 ◼   ► apprehension that others might be having

00:24:11 ◼   ► rewarding experiences from which we are

00:24:13 ◼   ► absent it is such a true thing and this

00:24:18 ◼   ► is a lot

00:24:18 ◼   ► I think people say why things like

00:24:20 ◼   ► Twitter are really and Facebook are so

00:24:24 ◼   ► compelling and interesting for you

00:24:26 ◼   ► because you feel like you're never

00:24:27 ◼   ► missing out in someone else's experience

00:24:29 ◼   ► and in a weird way you're almost part of

00:24:31 ◼   ► it because you can see what they're

00:24:35 ◼   ► doing you know you can see go on

00:24:37 ◼   ► Instagram and see a picture of every

00:24:39 ◼   ► meal they've had and so even if you do

00:24:41 ◼   ► weren't there and you didn't you have

00:24:43 ◼   ► that same meal you still sort of got to

00:24:44 ◼   ► experience a little bit of it and it

00:24:46 ◼   ► kind of can create that feeling of it

00:24:48 ◼   ► helps you deal with that that that you

00:24:51 ◼   ► know the apprehension that someone else

00:24:52 ◼   ► could be having an experience that

00:24:53 ◼   ► you're not having and so a lot of apps

00:24:56 ◼   ► have sharing built into them you have

00:24:59 ◼   ► this concept of sharing what you're

00:25:02 ◼   ► doing to create that kind of that that

00:25:06 ◼   ► reinforcement or that people can go and

00:25:08 ◼   ► feel like they're experiencing other

00:25:09 ◼   ► people's lives and not missing out as a

00:25:13 ◼   ► result you know and so a lot of apps

00:25:14 ◼   ► will have a little share button or

00:25:15 ◼   ► something like that and you can on the

00:25:17 ◼   ► flip side are similarly related to it

00:25:19 ◼   ► you have like the competition side of

00:25:21 ◼   ► things which is where you can kind of

00:25:24 ◼   ► share your experiences almost in a

00:25:26 ◼   ► overtly challenging way that like you're

00:25:29 ◼   ► almost saying like this is my experience

00:25:31 ◼   ► is yours is good which is in some ways

00:25:35 ◼   ► you're like directly tapping into

00:25:36 ◼   ► someone's fear of missing out by saying

00:25:38 ◼   ► like I just went for a great run you

00:25:41 ◼   ► know I look these are my steps or you

00:25:43 ◼   ► didn't like kid the Fitbit I think has a

00:25:45 ◼   ► whole lot of this and watch OS 3 has

00:25:46 ◼   ► this in the activity sharing like you

00:25:48 ◼   ► have this concept of saying like here's

00:25:50 ◼   ► something I did can you do any better

00:25:51 ◼   ► which is a really powerful way to make

00:25:54 ◼   ► people attach to something you're doing

00:25:56 ◼   ► because it feels more personal and it

00:25:58 ◼   ► almost says like taps into like

00:25:59 ◼   ► elementary school peer pressure kind of

00:26:02 ◼   ► stuff that if someone else is doing it

00:26:03 ◼   ► then maybe I should do it too oh and

00:26:05 ◼   ► also like that that kind of it helps you

00:26:08 ◼   ► and your app latch on to and likely

00:26:11 ◼   ► profit from people's existing

00:26:14 ◼   ► competitive relationships in their lives

00:26:16 ◼   ► so like if you have like you know two

00:26:17 ◼   ► friends who are always trying to outdo

00:26:19 ◼   ► each other or are having like a friendly

00:26:21 ◼   ► competition with with you know the

00:26:23 ◼   ► activity they have in a day or whatever

00:26:24 ◼   ► else to have them competing in a way

00:26:26 ◼   ► that means using your app more is good

00:26:29 ◼   ► news for you yeah because it

00:26:31 ◼   ► that's ultimately like so much of this

00:26:34 ◼   ► ultimately is coming down to trying to

00:26:37 ◼   ► find ways that are beyond just like the

00:26:41 ◼   ► fundamental functionality of your app

00:26:42 ◼   ► but finding other ways for making people

00:26:44 ◼   ► to want to keep opening it you know it's

00:26:46 ◼   ► like it's retention I guess is the like

00:26:48 ◼   ► the KPI the keeper I don't know the

00:26:53 ◼   ► parking lot yeah it's the thing that you

00:26:56 ◼   ► that you're that you're kind of looking

00:26:57 ◼   ► for where and this is I mean I ran into

00:26:59 ◼   ► this a lot with like a lot of my apps

00:27:01 ◼   ► are now supported from advertising and

00:27:03 ◼   ► if you have an advertising supported app

00:27:05 ◼   ► like you want to have people keep

00:27:07 ◼   ► opening your app and so anything you can

00:27:09 ◼   ► do to give them a reason to do that is

00:27:12 ◼   ► you know is pretty interesting like and

00:27:15 ◼   ► in sharing or these kind of these

00:27:16 ◼   ► competitive kinds of things it's you can

00:27:18 ◼   ► get into really funny places too and you

00:27:20 ◼   ► start to think about it of you know when

00:27:23 ◼   ► someone shares their steps with someone

00:27:27 ◼   ► else and say you have a system in your

00:27:28 ◼   ► app where you sent them a push

00:27:29 ◼   ► notification there's nothing I've

00:27:32 ◼   ► actually gotten into but I've been

00:27:33 ◼   ► trying to think through those kinds of

00:27:34 ◼   ► things you can get into really funny

00:27:36 ◼   ► questions of should you show the

00:27:39 ◼   ► information in the app because you just

00:27:42 ◼   ► say that you know so ins you know Marco

00:27:44 ◼   ► sent you a step challenge or something

00:27:46 ◼   ► or should you be specific about it or

00:27:49 ◼   ► you know someone just updated they're

00:27:51 ◼   ► sort of like you'll see this I think on

00:27:52 ◼   ► Matt actually on Facebook but I've seen

00:27:54 ◼   ► these on other people's like phones and

00:27:57 ◼   ► screenshots we have like so-and-so

00:27:58 ◼   ► updated their status and you don't tell

00:28:00 ◼   ► anybody why like what actually they did

00:28:02 ◼   ► oh yeah well the worst one is like this

00:28:04 ◼   ► person you know commented on your photo

00:28:06 ◼   ► but they won't tell you what the comment

00:28:07 ◼   ► is sure it's like and the reason is

00:28:09 ◼   ► because it creates it improves retention

00:28:12 ◼   ► and going to something if you have to go

00:28:15 ◼   ► to the app to find out and so you can

00:28:17 ◼   ► take advantage of the fact that people

00:28:18 ◼   ► are competitive and we don't miss out on

00:28:20 ◼   ► other people's experiences and you can

00:28:23 ◼   ► tap into that in an app that it's like

00:28:25 ◼   ► by making it social you can make it

00:28:26 ◼   ► compelling a little weird in some ways

00:28:30 ◼   ► but overall like a lot of this it people

00:28:33 ◼   ► are doing this moron thing on their own

00:28:35 ◼   ► and maybe you can be aware of it and see

00:28:37 ◼   ► it as an opportunity for helping your

00:28:38 ◼   ► app to spread like I love when my apps

00:28:41 ◼   ► are growing because of social sharing

00:28:42 ◼   ► that people are saying you know I

00:28:45 ◼   ► you know I I got your app I loved it I

00:28:47 ◼   ► recommended it to three friends like

00:28:49 ◼   ► that's awesome that's like the really

00:28:50 ◼   ► positive version of this but you know

00:28:52 ◼   ► maybe it says with all these things like

00:28:53 ◼   ► there's definitely this balance of you

00:28:56 ◼   ► can use it in a good way or you can use

00:28:57 ◼   ► it in a not so good way and maybe at the

00:29:00 ◼   ► very least if you're aware of it you'll

00:29:01 ◼   ► be able to better take care of yourself

00:29:03 ◼   ► as a result yeah all right we're out of

00:29:06 ◼   ► time this week thanks a lot for

00:29:08 ◼   ► listening everybody please use these

00:29:10 ◼   ► tricks responsibly and use them to make

00:29:13 ◼   ► people's lives better not worse make the

00:29:14 ◼   ► world a better place don't subtract from

00:29:16 ◼   ► it thanks everyone and we'll see you

00:29:18 ◼   ► next week bye