Under the Radar

Under the Radar 36: Should You Release Every App?


00:00:00   welcome to under the radar a show but

00:00:02   independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04   Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06   the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:07   minutes so let's get started so in in

00:00:10   the absence of much iOS news the suite I

00:00:12   wanted to talk a little bit about the

00:00:13   Mac as I mentioned before I've been

00:00:15   getting slowly into with a couple of

00:00:18   small utility apps the first one being

00:00:20   quitter which I launched I don't know a

00:00:22   month ago something like that and now

00:00:24   I'm working on a basic podcast

00:00:26   post-production tool I want to talk a

00:00:29   little bit about the considerations

00:00:30   behind selling this mac app potentially

00:00:33   in the near future

00:00:34   you know both releasing it to the public

00:00:36   polishing it up and then whether to

00:00:38   charge money for it do I sell it in the

00:00:40   Mac App Store versus non Mac App Store

00:00:42   do I worry about piracy stuff like that

00:00:44   the first concern I had is do I want to

00:00:48   release this app to the public at all

00:00:50   when you're in the middle of building an

00:00:52   app and you're like oh this is kind of

00:00:54   fun you might think you know oh it's

00:00:57   right now i I've gotten to a point where

00:00:59   I can use it and it's kind of done for a

00:01:01   while then you might use it for a while

00:01:02   you might share with a couple of couple

00:01:04   of friends something like that and you

00:01:06   might think okay you know I should

00:01:07   release this this is useful the

00:01:09   difference between like the point you're

00:01:11   at at that at that moment where like you

00:01:13   have the app working for you and maybe a

00:01:16   couple hundred people versus something

00:01:18   that is releasable that's a very very

00:01:20   wide gap but I learned this when I did

00:01:22   quitter where I had like this basic

00:01:25   AppleScript first and then I had this

00:01:27   basic menu bar app and I thought you

00:01:29   know other people might find this useful

00:01:30   I should release this and to get from

00:01:33   that point to releasable in in a

00:01:36   responsible and and pleasant and likely

00:01:39   to succeed way was so much work because

00:01:42   what you don't realize when when you

00:01:44   when you have the initial app you don't

00:01:45   realize that there are like all the edge

00:01:48   cases that you're not considering that

00:01:51   because like you don't use them yourself

00:01:53   edge cases you know we had a whole show

00:01:54   on edge cases it's there's all the

00:01:57   education you're considering and the

00:01:58   standards for what is good enough are

00:02:01   way lower when it's just you or your

00:02:04   friends using an app like what's good

00:02:05   enough with the UI what's good enough

00:02:07   with input handling with edge case

00:02:09   handling in general you just need far

00:02:11   less polish and

00:02:13   and other stuff like that you that you

00:02:15   don't even think of at first but that is

00:02:17   actually that could be a lot of work or

00:02:18   expense or just a hassle is you know a

00:02:21   private app for yourself doesn't need a

00:02:23   public name that doesn't eat a decent

00:02:26   icon it doesn't need documentation you

00:02:29   don't need to worry about distribution

00:02:30   it doesn't need a website doesn't need

00:02:31   like an auto updater feed stuff like

00:02:34   that and once you have it working for

00:02:36   yourself it basically doesn't need any

00:02:38   maintenance because you know all the

00:02:40   limitations you avoid them yourself

00:02:43   and it just it works for you and you

00:02:45   consider it done if you release to the

00:02:47   public you have to go through this

00:02:49   massive polishing stage it seems like oh

00:02:53   you know this weekend I'll polish it up

00:02:54   and get it out there in practice it

00:02:56   usually takes a lot of time like you

00:02:59   don't you typically underestimate that

00:03:00   time it's it's not easy or fast and once

00:03:04   the app goes public people will have

00:03:07   expectations for it they will start

00:03:09   emailing you feature requests they will

00:03:11   expect improvements to all the bugs that

00:03:14   you didn't find because you didn't hit

00:03:15   an indie at any of the edge cases and

00:03:16   what started out as a as a simple idea

00:03:19   of all you know I've made this happen

00:03:21   for myself maybe I'll release it that

00:03:23   can quickly balloon into a much larger

00:03:25   project like what happened with Twitter

00:03:28   like there was a lot of temptation that

00:03:30   like you know quitter as it is right now

00:03:32   works fine for me but there was

00:03:35   immediate temptation once I released it

00:03:38   and started getting all these people

00:03:39   saying you know oh man this is great

00:03:41   it'd be even better if it did this or it

00:03:43   man you could really make this into a

00:03:45   bigger thing by adding this and it

00:03:47   quickly became very tempting to take

00:03:50   this what you--what was this very basic

00:03:52   little utility app and to try to make it

00:03:55   its own bigger product but then of

00:03:58   course like do I have time for that

00:04:00   bigger product do I want to even be in

00:04:02   that business like you know I'd start

00:04:04   competing with us with a whole other

00:04:06   market or products that frankly I don't

00:04:07   know anything about I don't know what

00:04:09   it's like to compete in that market you

00:04:10   know do I really want to be doing that

00:04:12   like it's a whole different ballgame

00:04:14   can I spare the time from my other

00:04:16   projects that I want to be doing to turn

00:04:19   this thing into a bigger thing like that

00:04:21   all the people are asking for that might

00:04:22   be tempting you know it's a very hard

00:04:24   balance to find and it can

00:04:26   so easily get totally out of control

00:04:28   before you even step back and realize

00:04:30   wait a minute

00:04:31   do I even want to be doing this as a Big

00:04:33   Apple do I want to just keep it as this

00:04:35   little thing that I spend you know a few

00:04:37   days on once and then never touch again

00:04:39   and this is a lesson that I've had to

00:04:42   learn many many times I have it I have

00:04:45   the tendency to build anything I can

00:04:47   think of and several times I've built

00:04:50   something and put it out into the like I

00:04:54   get it to that point where you're

00:04:55   talking about where it's like it's sort

00:04:56   of done it's useful enough it's kind of

00:04:59   at that cross that functional threshold

00:05:01   maybe you'd say done is in the biggest

00:05:03   quotation marks' ever yeah it's it's

00:05:05   like it's sort of functional maybe is a

00:05:08   better word than yes and I'm like okay

00:05:12   maybe I'll release this mail put this

00:05:13   out in the store maybe I'll like it's

00:05:15   maybe other people would find it useful

00:05:17   the thing that I find well that I now

00:05:21   have maybe it might be a bit strong to

00:05:23   call it the wisdom but I've been caught

00:05:26   up with it enough times to know that

00:05:27   there's a difference in the way you

00:05:30   approach building something if you're

00:05:32   building it as a product versus if

00:05:34   you're building it just as like on a

00:05:37   lark just a little hobby project a

00:05:39   little experimentation or a prototype

00:05:41   something like that you have to be more

00:05:44   thoughtful you have to think about how

00:05:47   it's going to be used and what even even

00:05:51   answering questions for you know what is

00:05:53   a typical user going to be and

00:05:56   optimizing it for them and sometimes

00:05:58   it's great if you are the typical user I

00:06:01   suppose but if you're not then you know

00:06:04   it gets starts to get really squishy and

00:06:06   tricky to make sure that you're actually

00:06:08   building a product that other people

00:06:10   would know how to use and you know I

00:06:12   have many utilities and things that I've

00:06:15   never released but I use myself or at

00:06:18   least what off perhaps moreover what

00:06:20   will happen is I'll build something use

00:06:22   it for myself for a long time and then

00:06:23   take like the lesson learned from using

00:06:26   it and turn it into an act you know fold

00:06:29   that into a product but the actual

00:06:31   product part is going to be very

00:06:33   different like necessarily and so it's

00:06:36   definitely a tricky thing to look at

00:06:38   something and say do I actually want

00:06:39   this to exist

00:06:40   outside of my own use or at least you

00:06:43   know my close friends or family you know

00:06:45   like there's a couple of apps or tools

00:06:46   that I use that you know I like I put

00:06:50   only exist on my wife and my phone and

00:06:52   that's fine like they don't have to be

00:06:54   products they can just be things

00:06:56   honestly what is that number I'm here

00:06:58   it's probably a lot

00:06:59   it's only a handful I mean most people

00:07:02   that number of zeros so like sure it's

00:07:03   it's greater than zero and a lot of

00:07:06   these things I guess I said are it's the

00:07:09   it's fighting the temptation to anytime

00:07:11   you have an idea to rush it out to

00:07:15   market versus trying to use it yourself

00:07:16   for a while and seeing if it actually is

00:07:20   something so a lot of times when I these

00:07:21   probably's things will ultimately end up

00:07:23   being a product that or will be a part

00:07:26   of bigger product but they start life is

00:07:28   just things to keep closed because I

00:07:30   used to rush things out I mean that's

00:07:31   part of why I ended up with the problem

00:07:33   of having dozens and dozens of apps in

00:07:36   the App Store because any time I had an

00:07:37   idea I'd build it I put it out and in to

00:07:40   start with I had the mindset of well if

00:07:42   I like you never know what's gonna be a

00:07:45   hit maybe I should just always push

00:07:46   things out and let the market tell me if

00:07:49   it's useful or cool there we have the

00:07:51   problem with that is like what if the

00:07:52   market tells me that what I'm doing is

00:07:54   like useful and cool but in a different

00:07:57   very different way or look at a very

00:08:00   different slant then I want to actually

00:08:02   use or build a product for then I'm kind

00:08:04   of like stuck into that and also I guess

00:08:07   there's a really weird thing of like is

00:08:10   it reasonable to put something out that

00:08:12   I don't have expectations to support for

00:08:14   example or like what level of support do

00:08:16   I expect to provide for something you

00:08:18   know is this just if it's just something

00:08:19   I built on a lark and put it and put out

00:08:21   into the world it's you know you

00:08:23   there's always especial if you put it

00:08:25   into like in you know into the App Store

00:08:27   or something like that then there's a

00:08:29   certain expectation I think that people

00:08:30   naturally have for what they should get

00:08:33   from that and so it definitely makes

00:08:35   sense for as you're going through this

00:08:36   process of you know do I want this thing

00:08:38   that I find useful to actually exist in

00:08:41   the world to make sure you have a good

00:08:43   answer to that that do I want to support

00:08:45   this do I want to chase down the various

00:08:48   bugs and issues that people are having

00:08:50   are people going to use this in a

00:08:51   professional context for example where

00:08:53   if there's

00:08:54   problem there's potentially financial

00:08:58   implications or more serious things that

00:09:01   could go wrong you know in quitter

00:09:02   if it doesn't quit Twitter for somebody

00:09:05   that's probably not a big deal but if it

00:09:08   if you're doing an app that could have a

00:09:09   bigger implication if it goes wrong like

00:09:12   there's some weird more like liability

00:09:15   type of questions that you have to be

00:09:16   comfortable with before you move forward

00:09:19   into an act and to into you know broader

00:09:21   distribution exactly and and all those

00:09:24   you know all the problems of are you

00:09:26   willing to support this and are you

00:09:28   ready to support it all those things

00:09:30   really do apply whether it's free or

00:09:33   paid although I will say though whether

00:09:35   you charge money at all makes a big

00:09:38   difference in the type of expectations

00:09:40   and entitlement that your customers will

00:09:42   feel to things like you know quality

00:09:44   like if somebody pays for an app they're

00:09:47   certainly going to expect you know it

00:09:49   better be good you know a better work

00:09:51   and have good features it also better

00:09:53   not crash or have bugs that they can

00:09:55   notice you know they expect you to

00:09:57   support it ongoing you know with updates

00:10:00   with maintenance and also as you

00:10:03   mentioned support you know if people

00:10:05   paid for an app even if they only paid a

00:10:07   dollar they expect a certain level of

00:10:10   support I mean heck people expect

00:10:12   support for free apps but they they

00:10:14   expect a lot more for paid apps it's not

00:10:16   proportional to the different like you

00:10:19   know they don't if they pay the dollar

00:10:20   versus paying nothing they don't expect

00:10:22   like $1 more support they expect a lot

00:10:24   more support psychologically they people

00:10:26   are very protective of having spent

00:10:29   money on something and they really get

00:10:30   angry if it doesn't matter to their

00:10:32   expectations if they paid even just $1

00:10:35   for it and the good thing is you know on

00:10:37   the Mac you can charge more but charging

00:10:40   more brings on even higher expectations

00:10:43   so you know if you if you are what I

00:10:45   would consider like a cheap app so on

00:10:47   iOS that probably like less than three

00:10:49   dollars maybe on the Mac I'd say under

00:10:51   $10 probably that is like one level of

00:10:55   aspect of expectations of you know

00:10:57   quality updates support if you charge

00:11:00   you know what I would call real money

00:11:02   and and that the the perception of what

00:11:04   real money is will vary by your market

00:11:06   but you know I'd say Iowa

00:11:08   maybe $10 on the Mac maybe $50 if you're

00:11:11   charging that you know that kind of like

00:11:12   what people think of as real money you

00:11:15   will be held to much higher expectations

00:11:17   like you know if people just paid you

00:11:20   $10 for your iOS app and it doesn't work

00:11:24   on the phone they by next month they're

00:11:27   gonna be mad like they're gonna be real

00:11:29   and understandably so because they pay

00:11:31   what they believe is a premium price and

00:11:32   you better be supporting that if they

00:11:34   spent $50 in your mac app and they email

00:11:37   you with a question you don't answer

00:11:38   that email that's that's gonna look

00:11:41   really bad for you in their eyes and

00:11:42   they're gonna get very angry about that

00:11:44   and so you have to really consider all

00:11:46   this and then and you know this goes

00:11:47   back to trying to estimate your market

00:11:49   if you talked about within the ideas

00:11:50   episode trying to estimate your market

00:11:52   of like it given all these all the

00:11:55   overhead of making a paid app and

00:11:58   selling a a paid app am I likely to

00:12:00   actually get enough copies sold to make

00:12:04   enough money from this that it will be

00:12:06   worth all that overhead in in my

00:12:08   business and in my life and is that

00:12:10   really worth it or not and it might be

00:12:12   easy to rationalize oh you know I made

00:12:14   this app it's kind of useful I should

00:12:15   charge you know ten bucks for it or

00:12:16   whatever or on iOS I got sharks two

00:12:19   bucks for it or whatever by the way that

00:12:20   multiple makes me sad but that's the

00:12:21   reality but anyways you know there

00:12:24   there's a temptation now you know I

00:12:25   could charge a few bucks for it make a

00:12:26   little bit of money but the reality is

00:12:28   making that money charging that's price

00:12:30   will have costs to you and you need to

00:12:33   make sure that you are being realistic

00:12:35   about your expectations of like how many

00:12:37   copies aren't really going to sell and

00:12:39   is that going to be worth making that

00:12:41   you know a few hundred dollars that I

00:12:43   might make from this or whatever it

00:12:44   might be and if you end up with saying

00:12:46   that it's not like then you have the

00:12:48   weird questions like well if I make it

00:12:49   free then why am I even releasing it

00:12:51   like fair enough there's a certain like

00:12:55   altruism or like you know being or maybe

00:12:59   like a exposure or marketing angles that

00:13:02   you could say yeah like long-term

00:13:02   reputation marketing kind of things yeah

00:13:05   or like those types of or like bigger

00:13:07   you know and broader sort of play I mean

00:13:09   sort of in the way that overcast is a

00:13:11   free app with in-app purchases in it to

00:13:14   support its development but it's you

00:13:16   know you've said many times that you

00:13:18   made it free to try and you know

00:13:20   establish it as

00:13:21   a big player in the in the space because

00:13:25   you had other motivations for that that

00:13:26   you wanted the platform to you know stay

00:13:29   competitive and open and so that can be

00:13:31   worthwhile even though it's not

00:13:33   financially the directly of the

00:13:35   financial incentive is there but like

00:13:37   there is a weird thing or you'll end up

00:13:38   with people away like well then why

00:13:39   don't you just open source it it's like

00:13:41   well then you kind of have two problems

00:13:42   like you have like you have the source

00:13:44   code and developer problem as well as

00:13:46   the the customer facing problem and you

00:13:49   have to manage and deal with those types

00:13:51   of things that it gets really

00:13:54   complicated to a point that you have to

00:13:56   decide like why am I doing this and you

00:13:58   have a good answer like a good concise

00:14:00   answer for like why would I want this to

00:14:02   exist in the world and if you have a

00:14:04   good answer awesome if you don't maybe

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00:16:08   all right so assuming that you have

00:16:11   decided that you want to release your

00:16:12   app and that you want to charge money

00:16:14   for it and and that it's a Mac app so

00:16:17   you know iOS that's a whole third pocket

00:16:19   we'll talk about that I know the shows

00:16:20   supposed you want to charge money for a

00:16:22   Mac app how do you do that and where do

00:16:24   you do that

00:16:25   the most obvious first choice is the Mac

00:16:28   App Store the Mac App Store though you

00:16:30   know as as we know by now the Mac App

00:16:33   Store is a mixed bag you know like like

00:16:35   the iOS App Store it builds a big wall

00:16:38   between you and your customers and this

00:16:40   has some benefits and some downsides the

00:16:43   obvious benefits are that you don't need

00:16:44   to deal with things like basic

00:16:46   distribution of versions updates and the

00:16:49   big thing you don't deal with payment

00:16:50   and those are those are all substantial

00:16:53   gains that you don't have to deal with

00:16:54   because those are all complicated to

00:16:56   different degrees I think payment being

00:16:58   the perfect the most complicated not

00:16:59   having to deal with that is is a huge

00:17:01   win it also kind of acts as a support

00:17:05   wall between you and your customers like

00:17:07   your customers might not contact you

00:17:09   directly they might like go to the Mac

00:17:11   App Store for that contact thing or they

00:17:12   might just blame Apple or blame the App

00:17:14   Store or whatever else if people have

00:17:16   problems and that's yeah probably it's

00:17:19   probably a good thing in the immediate

00:17:21   term if you don't think about too much

00:17:22   but in the long term it's probably a bad

00:17:23   thing buying from the store though a lot

00:17:26   of people prefer it it reduces issues

00:17:29   around things like trust you know if

00:17:31   people don't really trust you or you

00:17:32   don't seem legitimate or large they

00:17:35   might have trouble giving you money

00:17:36   whereas they tend to not have those

00:17:38   problems in the app stores and of course

00:17:40   it's easier for people to install stuff

00:17:42   from the app store usually when it works

00:17:43   if they don't have to fish out their

00:17:45   license key or anything like that so

00:17:46   like many customers do prefer

00:17:49   buying from the AppStore and that is not

00:17:50   to be underestimated but for those

00:17:54   benefits with the Mac App Store you pay

00:17:56   major costs

00:17:58   it is incredibly inflexible on pricing

00:18:01   models distribution update stuff like

00:18:03   that no there's no trials no paid

00:18:04   upgrades there's a lot of rules you also

00:18:07   have to go through a preview and to

00:18:08   enforce a lot of these rules and you

00:18:10   have to be sandboxed and these are all

00:18:12   pretty major restrictions for a lot of

00:18:15   Mac app businesses a lot of apps just

00:18:17   can't be sold to the App Store for some

00:18:19   of those requirements and a lot of them

00:18:21   maybe could be but it would be unwise

00:18:22   for them to be sold to the store and it

00:18:24   would be bad business for them the

00:18:27   biggest thing to me is is well the two

00:18:30   biggest things to me you you definitely

00:18:32   have less access and knowledge about

00:18:35   your customers and so you it's harder to

00:18:37   do things like build an email list for

00:18:40   you know new releases and stuff like

00:18:41   that and it's harder to like offer

00:18:42   certain people just can't things like

00:18:44   that and mostly to me they take a 30%

00:18:48   cut and 30% is a lot like it's it's easy

00:18:52   if we're you know for those of us who

00:18:54   were accustomed to iOS it's easy to

00:18:56   forget or two or two not really ever

00:18:58   think through like how much is 30%

00:19:00   exactly so just to give you an example

00:19:02   how much 30% is in practice suppose you

00:19:06   make you suppose you have a really good

00:19:07   app it makes $50,000 well you made

00:19:10   $50,000 what did the app actually make

00:19:12   so if you got $50,000 from Apple the app

00:19:15   made about seventy one thousand dollars

00:19:17   so you got fifty an Apple guy about 21

00:19:20   thousand so Apple got almost half of

00:19:22   what you got

00:19:23   if you sell outside of an app store

00:19:26   which you can't do in iOS really but if

00:19:28   you do it on the Mac that 30% cut that

00:19:31   is taken by your parent processor goes

00:19:32   down to maybe you know three to six

00:19:36   percent depending on how you're doing it

00:19:37   depending on international support

00:19:39   payment provider stuff like that but

00:19:41   it's it goes down you know almost order

00:19:43   of magnitude from from Apple's cut so in

00:19:47   that example just to give you some

00:19:48   numbers for your app that you made fifty

00:19:51   thousand dollars from an app store you

00:19:52   would have made about sixty six thousand

00:19:54   dollars from fat spring or sixty nine

00:19:56   thousand dollars from strike so these

00:19:58   are not small differences thirty percent

00:20:01   is a lot

00:20:02   and if you know if Apple brings that 15%

00:20:06   cut to a lot more places that will help

00:20:08   a lot 15% is also a lot but it's way

00:20:11   more competitive than 30 compared to

00:20:13   selling it yourself

00:20:14   so the App Store really is you you

00:20:19   really you get a lot of benefits for it

00:20:21   but you do pay dearly for those benefits

00:20:23   in a lot of different ways and for a lot

00:20:26   of people it's just not worth it sure

00:20:28   and the App Store - is this like it's a

00:20:32   weird thing to have the choice in some

00:20:34   ways coming from an iOS background where

00:20:36   like I just because I have no choice in

00:20:38   the matter like if I want to make I owe

00:20:39   a software and give it to someone else

00:20:41   beyond unless I'm within a big company

00:20:44   and I do an enterprise distribution

00:20:45   thing like the only option is the iOS

00:20:48   App Store so like whatever like I can

00:20:50   lobby and encourage Apple to change

00:20:53   policies or to make things happen but by

00:20:55   and large it's their store their rules I

00:20:57   do the best I can because you have the

00:20:59   choice on the Mac App Store you really

00:21:02   start to see that like the the hurdles

00:21:05   and the challenges that that situation

00:21:07   creates oh yeah I mean like you know the

00:21:11   App Store it's always kind of been like

00:21:12   this carrot and stick balance on iOS

00:21:15   they don't really need to offer much

00:21:16   carrot because the stick is so big like

00:21:18   iOS you have to use the App Store period

00:21:20   like there's no I mean yes I guess like

00:21:23   Cydia

00:21:23   exists or Cydia however it's pronounced

00:21:25   but that's you know not really easy to

00:21:27   build businesses they're you know you're

00:21:29   basically stuck with the App Store or

00:21:30   nothing on iOS on the Mac you know and

00:21:33   even Apple like they use they used to

00:21:34   tie major features to the App Store like

00:21:36   like iCloud and they just announced WC

00:21:39   this year these features are coming to

00:21:41   other apps you don't have to be in the

00:21:42   App Store anymore so it seems like on

00:21:44   the Mac Apple has recently kind of

00:21:46   shifted away from keeping much of a

00:21:50   stick around there so now they're

00:21:51   relying only on the carrot of like you

00:21:53   know what are the benefits of being in

00:21:55   the Mac App Store so now you kind of

00:21:56   look at it purely on business terms and

00:21:58   I don't think the Mac App Store is a

00:22:00   very appealing place for for new

00:22:02   businesses to go these days even the the

00:22:05   promotional value I think has proven to

00:22:07   be fairly minimal in actual installation

00:22:09   numbers from featured apps so it's

00:22:12   unfortunate because I would have been

00:22:13   nice if it worked better but it does

00:22:15   seem like a

00:22:16   has both failed in a way that it's most

00:22:18   likely to be elected forever and and

00:22:21   that most developers shouldn't go there

00:22:22   anymore because I think the thing that I

00:22:25   think of we're like why why would I use

00:22:27   the Mac App Store like if I since I now

00:22:29   have this choice like I can decide if I

00:22:31   want to go this is like a or B or both

00:22:33   like which obviously you can also do you

00:22:35   can sell in both places but say I'm

00:22:38   going to be in the half store like in my

00:22:40   mind the main reason on the Mac App

00:22:42   Store that I would want to be there and

00:22:43   this is speaking mostly just as a

00:22:45   customer for like why do want when do I

00:22:47   launch the App Store app on my Mac is

00:22:51   usually it's like if I have a very

00:22:53   specific utility or tool in mind yeah

00:22:56   we'll go and search in the Mac App Store

00:22:58   first and I do that mostly just because

00:23:01   I have it anyway it has that sense of

00:23:03   being curated that somebody else they

00:23:06   like a impartial you know to some

00:23:09   definition of impartial third party has

00:23:11   looked at this application and said it

00:23:13   meets a basic set of criteria don't

00:23:15   worry it's not going you're not

00:23:17   installing malware you're not installing

00:23:20   sort of something that doesn't actually

00:23:22   do what it says it's it has this basic

00:23:26   level of criteria so if I can find a

00:23:27   tool you know I'm just trying to do

00:23:29   something that do some random operation

00:23:30   that I need a utility for I'll go to the

00:23:33   Mac App Store and if I find it great

00:23:35   I'll get it from there if not you know

00:23:37   then I just go to google search around

00:23:39   in there and find it that way and so the

00:23:42   main benefit from being in the Mac App

00:23:45   Store from my perspective based on my

00:23:47   own experience is just as a marketing

00:23:49   tool just as being in the place that you

00:23:53   know there's a non and significant

00:23:55   number of people who may go there and

00:23:57   look and so it's like being on that

00:23:58   shelf is useful but if you're trying to

00:24:03   build a business that you know you're

00:24:05   making your living from something Mac

00:24:07   App Store on its own is unlikely to be

00:24:09   the right answer my guess is you're

00:24:12   gonna want to be at least in both if not

00:24:15   go here go your own and because once

00:24:18   you've gone down the road of doing it

00:24:20   your own you can start to realize a lot

00:24:22   of benefits and both in terms of like

00:24:23   you were saying in terms of the costs

00:24:25   and the money you can make as well as

00:24:27   just having

00:24:29   so much more flexibility about how

00:24:31   things work

00:24:32   you're never you're never stuck in the

00:24:34   situation of like oh I need to get this

00:24:36   you know this update the spokes update

00:24:38   through app review even though I purview

00:24:40   is great and down to like you know a day

00:24:42   or so now it's still a day is the longer

00:24:45   than you know one minute from now it'll

00:24:47   be available on my CDN and that's kind

00:24:51   of nice oh yeah and and just the

00:24:53   flexibility you gotta do yourself I mean

00:24:55   you know the downside is you have to

00:24:57   build it yourself and and there are

00:24:58   different degrees of building yourself

00:25:00   like if you use something like fast

00:25:02   spring or digital River

00:25:04   formally accelerate or Kagi like the

00:25:07   these things they they charge you know a

00:25:10   little bit more percentage like a few

00:25:11   more percentage points than like direct

00:25:13   credit card processing from stripe or

00:25:14   somewhere like that but they take care

00:25:15   of a lot of the just payment complexity

00:25:18   for you and you basically just provide

00:25:20   serial numbers and you will have some

00:25:23   support costs from these things you'll

00:25:25   have some issues but probably fewer you

00:25:27   know from Dilbert I talk to there's

00:25:28   probably fewer of those than from from

00:25:30   most places and so it seemed like a very

00:25:33   good balance to use the servers like

00:25:34   this versus like Mac App Store or

00:25:36   totally doing yourself because you only

00:25:38   pay a little bit more and and you know

00:25:41   that doing it yourself and you get a lot

00:25:42   so that's probably going to try first

00:25:44   you know something maybe I was looking

00:25:46   at faster bring earlier probably them

00:25:47   and then you know because you can always

00:25:48   change later with these things like with

00:25:50   it's it's very it's harder to move in or

00:25:53   out of the Mac App Store if you change

00:25:55   your mind later if you need to change

00:25:56   later but these kind of services it's

00:25:58   pretty easy to move between so the costs

00:26:00   of trying went out are pretty low so I

00:26:02   want to talk briefly about piracy

00:26:04   concerns because this is something like

00:26:06   you don't really have to think about an

00:26:08   iOS much because an iOS like I mean

00:26:11   there is iOS piracy certainly but it's

00:26:13   limited almost completely jailbreak

00:26:15   community and and you don't really it's

00:26:17   kind of like a losing battle like you

00:26:18   can't really fight the jailbreak

00:26:20   community on piracy so you're usually

00:26:22   better off not even trying and that is

00:26:25   largely true of Mac piracy as well but

00:26:27   not completely on the Mac you know it

00:26:30   with people using the Mac like you don't

00:26:32   have to be like a special class of user

00:26:35   the way like you know you like you kind

00:26:36   of have to like devote a lifestyle to be

00:26:38   a jailbreaker click on the Mac you can

00:26:40   pirate Mac apps if you really want to

00:26:42   and a lot of people do

00:26:43   and it's it's easier to do it and and so

00:26:46   you do have to worry about that as a Mac

00:26:48   software author of you have to worry

00:26:49   about piracy and and how this will

00:26:51   affect your app how will affect your

00:26:52   customers and generally I've talked to a

00:26:55   lot of developers about those recently

00:26:56   trying to figure out what I need to do

00:26:58   here and the number one is stay out of

00:27:01   the Mac App Store because Mac App Store

00:27:03   piracy is rampant because they all use

00:27:05   the same wrapper that everyone it's

00:27:06   cracked a million times and you kind of

00:27:08   can't do much about it as a Mac App

00:27:11   Store app also Mac App Store even

00:27:13   without piracy the Mac App Store license

00:27:14   allows for the same Apple ID to install

00:27:17   your app on like hundreds of Mac's so

00:27:19   that's a big problem if you have a

00:27:21   business app where like a whole office

00:27:23   full of computers might have your app

00:27:24   installed off of one purchase which is

00:27:26   not great so generally with piracy like

00:27:30   a little goes a long way you need to do

00:27:33   some piracy prevention you need to have

00:27:35   some kind of like license or a serial

00:27:37   number checking or something like that

00:27:40   just to prevent casual piracy you need

00:27:42   to put up some kind of barrier to make

00:27:44   paying you easier for most people than

00:27:48   pirating the app to a large extent your

00:27:51   app will be pirated anyway and you know

00:27:53   you can do things like you can scan the

00:27:55   internet occasionally trying to like

00:27:56   look for pirated serial numbers of your

00:27:58   own app and then ban them in a future

00:27:59   build of your app this is all examples

00:28:01   of like low-hanging fruit like a little

00:28:03   goes a long way here you should have

00:28:05   some kind of piracy avoidance mechanism

00:28:08   in your app and this is something you

00:28:09   have to worry about with your X

00:28:10   distribution but you know that's just a

00:28:13   cost of doing business and that's that's

00:28:14   part of you know that's part of you know

00:28:17   just the reality of a software business

00:28:20   on on a computer these days you know

00:28:21   it's less so on mobile but on a computer

00:28:23   that's that's still part of why you get

00:28:26   paid the big bucks

00:28:26   thank you yes and you know you have to

00:28:29   always balance for his legitimate

00:28:31   customers hurting them you know with

00:28:33   ever any kind of piracy prevention

00:28:34   system you pick but generally you know

00:28:37   in summary I don't know much about this

00:28:38   yet but it does seem like the common

00:28:40   wisdom among people is although it goes

00:28:42   a long way you need to do something but

00:28:44   you don't need to you don't need to go

00:28:45   crazy with it

00:28:46   sure and I think that's probably the

00:28:48   best path is it said you know build

00:28:51   something yourself do something basic

00:28:52   and then just don't worry about it

00:28:53   exactly

00:28:55   all right well we're out of time this

00:28:57   week thank you very much for listening

00:28:59   everybody I know this is officially in

00:29:00   iOS show but we will occasionally talk

00:29:02   about the Mac because it's related

00:29:03   thanks for listening and we'll see you

00:29:04   next week bye