Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today we

00:00:12 ◼   ► wanted to talk about us something that

00:00:14 ◼   ► is relevant for this time of year

00:00:16 ◼   ► insofar as coming out of WDC looking

00:00:20 ◼   ► forward to this fall when all of these

00:00:22 ◼   ► new technologies all these new platforms

00:00:24 ◼   ► are you know certainly going to be

00:00:25 ◼   ► released this is usually a good time to

00:00:28 ◼   ► think about building something new too

00:00:30 ◼   ► you know to build a new app to explore

00:00:33 ◼   ► something whatever that may be and the

00:00:36 ◼   ► first step in starting a project like

00:00:39 ◼   ► that in diving into building something

00:00:40 ◼   ► is of course coming up with the idea for

00:00:43 ◼   ► what that thing is ideas are a funny

00:00:46 ◼   ► thing I think a lot of people put a bit

00:00:49 ◼   ► too much weight on ideas that you can

00:00:52 ◼   ► kind of it's like you have the concept

00:00:54 ◼   ► of like oh yeah I'm you I'm just the

00:00:55 ◼   ► idea guy kind of a mindset like there

00:00:58 ◼   ► that the idea in and of itself is an

00:00:59 ◼   ► important and valuable thing and while

00:01:02 ◼   ► the idea is useful and an essential part

00:01:05 ◼   ► of building something by and large the

00:01:08 ◼   ► idea for exactly what you actually are

00:01:09 ◼   ► doing is is less important and what you

00:01:13 ◼   ► need to do those whenever you're you

00:01:15 ◼   ► have an idea you haven't I think thought

00:01:16 ◼   ► of you know I'm gonna do this I'm gonna

00:01:17 ◼   ► build an app that does X at least I

00:01:20 ◼   ► found it's important to have a way to

00:01:22 ◼   ► look at that and say is this worth doing

00:01:25 ◼   ► how can I characterize this idea and

00:01:28 ◼   ► understand if it's worth pursuing and

00:01:30 ◼   ► partly what I think we're gonna unpack

00:01:33 ◼   ► today is about how Muir's ago I did an

00:01:36 ◼   ► episode of my previous podcast

00:01:38 ◼   ► developing perspective or I kind of

00:01:39 ◼   ► unpacked this and I came up with a

00:01:40 ◼   ► framework there that I think is a

00:01:42 ◼   ► helpful way to think about this and I

00:01:44 ◼   ► think it's still very relevant and

00:01:46 ◼   ► socially we can kind of update the ideas

00:01:48 ◼   ► in it but essentially and I think about

00:01:51 ◼   ► ideas it's to understand that like

00:01:53 ◼   ► conceptually an idea is either easy or

00:01:55 ◼   ► hard to do in terms of to implement like

00:01:58 ◼   ► we have this concept of I wanted to do

00:02:00 ◼   ► something is that is that a trivial

00:02:02 ◼   ► thing to do or is it a really hard thing

00:02:03 ◼   ► to do and then some ideas have a very

00:02:07 ◼   ► high reward potential and some ideas

00:02:09 ◼   ► have a very low reward potential and so

00:02:12 ◼   ► you end up when you you know you

00:02:13 ◼   ► we have two axes and these sort of

00:02:16 ◼   ► mutually exclusive directions and so you

00:02:18 ◼   ► have the perfect like you know like

00:02:20 ◼   ► business journal concept of like now we

00:02:22 ◼   ► have four quadrants and we can think

00:02:25 ◼   ► about our idea in those four quadrants

00:02:26 ◼   ► because there's some interesting

00:02:28 ◼   ► characteristics of taking an idea and

00:02:30 ◼   ► thinking of it in that way like is this

00:02:32 ◼   ► easy high-reward is this easy low reward

00:02:34 ◼   ► hard low reward or hard high reward and

00:02:38 ◼   ► if you can't think of an idea through

00:02:40 ◼   ► that way you're gonna potentially

00:02:42 ◼   ► struggle to know if it's a good idea to

00:02:44 ◼   ► pursue so before we dive into that

00:02:46 ◼   ► thought I was curious if Marco if you

00:02:48 ◼   ► have ever when you have an idea of to

00:02:51 ◼   ► start something like when you were

00:02:52 ◼   ► thinking of building overcast or when

00:02:54 ◼   ► you were thinking of building Instapaper

00:02:55 ◼   ► or the magazine or any of your sort of

00:02:56 ◼   ► the products that you went all Tamiya

00:02:58 ◼   ► to build when you had the idea did you

00:03:00 ◼   ► think concretely about it before you

00:03:03 ◼   ► start it or did you just get started at

00:03:06 ◼   ► that time for for almost everything I've

00:03:08 ◼   ► done I've just gotten started on it it's

00:03:10 ◼   ► it's only been fairly recent in my life

00:03:13 ◼   ► and career that I've started actually

00:03:14 ◼   ► trying to evaluate these things in a

00:03:17 ◼   ► more objective and honest way before I

00:03:19 ◼   ► just dive in and and devote months or

00:03:21 ◼   ► years to to doing them because it's you

00:03:24 ◼   ► know evaluating your own ideas is really

00:03:27 ◼   ► hard and especially for you know for

00:03:31 ◼   ► people like us who like to build things

00:03:33 ◼   ► and who get pleasure out of building

00:03:34 ◼   ► things it is so easy and so tempting to

00:03:37 ◼   ► just jump in and start doing it and

00:03:39 ◼   ► often you know and often you know that

00:03:41 ◼   ► is that works out well for a lot of

00:03:43 ◼   ► people but there's also a lot of times

00:03:46 ◼   ► where it doesn't because fundamentally

00:03:48 ◼   ► there were some kind of disagreement

00:03:50 ◼   ► between how valuable the idea was in

00:03:53 ◼   ► your head and how valuable the market

00:03:55 ◼   ► decides that it is at once once you put

00:03:57 ◼   ► it out there and it's you know I don't

00:04:00 ◼   ► know if you can really develop that

00:04:01 ◼   ► skill to be able to evaluate your idea

00:04:04 ◼   ► early and and that's part of the

00:04:07 ◼   ► justification for doing like a Minimum

00:04:09 ◼   ► Viable Product early where like rather

00:04:12 ◼   ► than you know having having some grand

00:04:14 ◼   ► idea that you think about for years and

00:04:16 ◼   ► you are waiting for someone to come

00:04:17 ◼   ► along and I don't know pay you a million

00:04:19 ◼   ► dollars for your idea or something which

00:04:20 ◼   ► never happens by the way

00:04:22 ◼   ► I can do a quick diversion right now on

00:04:24 ◼   ► the value of ideas by themselves and

00:04:27 ◼   ► basically any app developer I mean most

00:04:31 ◼   ► of our audience has probably been

00:04:32 ◼   ► pitched somebody's terrible idea before

00:04:34 ◼   ► and you know that they they're like oh I

00:04:37 ◼   ► have this great idea it's a secret

00:04:38 ◼   ► though you gotta promise not to steal it

00:04:39 ◼   ► or actually sometimes it'll make you

00:04:41 ◼   ► sign an NDA before they'll tell you

00:04:43 ◼   ► their idea or they will have patented

00:04:46 ◼   ► their idea or they will think they are

00:04:48 ◼   ► patenting their idea even though they've

00:04:49 ◼   ► only maybe just applied for one or are

00:04:51 ◼   ► thinking about applying for one and all

00:04:54 ◼   ► of these common failings reflect a and

00:04:58 ◼   ► overvaluation of ideas by a lot of

00:05:00 ◼   ► people and the reality is these days

00:05:04 ◼   ► when people ask me to you know sign an

00:05:06 ◼   ► NDA your agree to keep their idea secret

00:05:08 ◼   ► before the Telamon theater I just say no

00:05:09 ◼   ► thanks because what has happened over

00:05:12 ◼   ► the last I don't know 10 years the

00:05:14 ◼   ► people in pitching me to terrible ideas

00:05:16 ◼   ► is I haven't I have literally never

00:05:19 ◼   ► heard an idea from somebody that was

00:05:21 ◼   ► worth agreeing to any kind of terms to

00:05:24 ◼   ► hear the idea it has never happened not

00:05:27 ◼   ► a single time and and the main problem

00:05:30 ◼   ► people have is like you know the the

00:05:33 ◼   ► reason why their idea doesn't exist or

00:05:36 ◼   ► that they know that it does exist and

00:05:38 ◼   ► they just haven't heard of the product

00:05:39 ◼   ► is so often because it's a bad idea or

00:05:43 ◼   ► because it's impossible or because the

00:05:45 ◼   ► market doesn't care and or you know the

00:05:48 ◼   ► more like the cases that these things do

00:05:50 ◼   ► exist and they just didn't notice or

00:05:52 ◼   ► they didn't find the one that existed or

00:05:54 ◼   ► it's something or it did exist but it

00:05:56 ◼   ► failed on it went away and that's also

00:05:57 ◼   ► something worth knowing so the the

00:05:59 ◼   ► actual value of the raw idea it is very

00:06:02 ◼   ► very hard for people to to honestly get

00:06:05 ◼   ► that so as I was saying earlier there is

00:06:07 ◼   ► some value in trying to get something

00:06:10 ◼   ► out there quickly in a minimal way that

00:06:12 ◼   ► will let the market then tell you

00:06:14 ◼   ► whether your idea is good or not but a

00:06:16 ◼   ► lot of times that just isn't possible or

00:06:18 ◼   ► the the the barrier between zero and

00:06:22 ◼   ► Minimum Viable products is just too high

00:06:24 ◼   ► to to be able to take a big risk on

00:06:27 ◼   ► before you have some idea of how good an

00:06:29 ◼   ► idea is so you do have to at some point

00:06:31 ◼   ► to help the skill of evaluating whether

00:06:34 ◼   ► your idea is

00:06:36 ◼   ► actually worth doing or not and I mean

00:06:38 ◼   ► the easiest way to do that is to just

00:06:40 ◼   ► look at the market look at similar

00:06:42 ◼   ► things because I mean if nothing has

00:06:44 ◼   ► ever been done like that before

00:06:46 ◼   ► again chances are you're just not

00:06:48 ◼   ► finding it

00:06:49 ◼   ► but if truly nothing is ever badonk that

00:06:51 ◼   ► don't that before try to find something

00:06:53 ◼   ► that's at least close or at least

00:06:55 ◼   ► similar in some way find some kind of

00:06:57 ◼   ► guidance in the market already to see

00:06:59 ◼   ► like what might the reward for this

00:07:02 ◼   ► actually be and and be honest with

00:07:04 ◼   ► yourself about that - you know like I

00:07:06 ◼   ► mean I mean you're probably the master

00:07:08 ◼   ► of this because you have released so

00:07:10 ◼   ► many apps you have more experience than

00:07:13 ◼   ► anybody I know in putting out an idea

00:07:17 ◼   ► and seeing how it does in the market I

00:07:18 ◼   ► mean how do you how do you address this

00:07:20 ◼   ► so I think the thing that I've come to

00:07:23 ◼   ► learn over the years of shipping lots

00:07:26 ◼   ► and lots and lots of apps is the degree

00:07:29 ◼   ► to which while that the idea itself

00:07:31 ◼   ► doesn't really doesn't really matter

00:07:35 ◼   ► ultimately and by that I mean like there

00:07:38 ◼   ► are many very successful apps in the App

00:07:40 ◼   ► Store that don't do anything novel at

00:07:45 ◼   ► least like ostensibly like they are a

00:07:47 ◼   ► to-do list app they are a weather app so

00:07:50 ◼   ► like I you know like I've made a weather

00:07:53 ◼   ► app which is one of the most kind of

00:07:55 ◼   ► absurd things to do in many ways because

00:07:57 ◼   ► all I had it's like I'm going into a

00:08:00 ◼   ► category where there's an actual like

00:08:03 ◼   ► top-level category in the App Store

00:08:05 ◼   ► saying this is a category of apps like

00:08:07 ◼   ► there isn't a to-do list category like

00:08:09 ◼   ► they all have to get you know shoehorned

00:08:10 ◼   ► into utilities but with weather apps

00:08:12 ◼   ► like there was an actual place in the

00:08:14 ◼   ► App Store that says like here's all of

00:08:15 ◼   ► the weather apps with the implication

00:08:17 ◼   ► that there are a lot of them and there

00:08:20 ◼   ► are and they're all displaying what is

00:08:22 ◼   ► functionally the same thing they're just

00:08:25 ◼   ► displaying it in a different way and so

00:08:28 ◼   ► why did I make him a weather app and

00:08:30 ◼   ► it's like the idea I had for check the

00:08:33 ◼   ► weather the app I'm talking about it was

00:08:35 ◼   ► like a very basic kind of concept of

00:08:36 ◼   ► like I wanted to be able to fly swipe

00:08:39 ◼   ► left and right to see the hourly view

00:08:43 ◼   ► and the daily view and swipe up to get a

00:08:45 ◼   ► radar view that was the only sort of

00:08:48 ◼   ► concept that I had before I started

00:08:52 ◼   ► which as a like if that's if that's all

00:08:55 ◼   ► I have is my idea is a pretty weak thing

00:08:59 ◼   ► like that's not something that you would

00:09:00 ◼   ► imagine it's going to like set the world

00:09:01 ◼   ► on fire and it's so easy to have an

00:09:04 ◼   ► arranged this sometimes with people who

00:09:06 ◼   ► get frustrated with they say oh I wish I

00:09:08 ◼   ► was India I just don't have a good idea

00:09:11 ◼   ► like you don't really need an idea so

00:09:15 ◼   ► much as you just need the willingness to

00:09:17 ◼   ► build something and then in in this is

00:09:20 ◼   ► where gets a bit awkward sometimes from

00:09:21 ◼   ► a developer's perspective it's like you

00:09:23 ◼   ► have to work out not so much what if

00:09:25 ◼   ► your idea is valuable so much as a said

00:09:27 ◼   ► can you sell whatever you it is your

00:09:30 ◼   ► building like at the end of the day is

00:09:32 ◼   ► there enough that's slightly different

00:09:36 ◼   ► in whatever it is you're building that

00:09:38 ◼   ► is going to get the people's attention

00:09:40 ◼   ► and you know how to have a little hook

00:09:42 ◼   ► because that's ultimately more what

00:09:45 ◼   ► you're selling probably than the idea

00:09:46 ◼   ► like if you really did come up with a

00:09:48 ◼   ► truly revolutionary novel idea that no

00:09:52 ◼   ► one has ever thought of or thinker

00:09:54 ◼   ► imagined before like wow that's awesome

00:09:57 ◼   ► like good on you you know you deserve

00:09:59 ◼   ► your accolades your Nobel Prize like

00:10:02 ◼   ► that's great but more likely than not if

00:10:05 ◼   ► you're making an app for the App Store

00:10:06 ◼   ► it's not that like the things that are

00:10:08 ◼   ► these weird out of the blue run away

00:10:11 ◼   ► successes tend to be more like random

00:10:14 ◼   ► like I almost imagine like the idea for

00:10:16 ◼   ► flappy bird right like I doubt the

00:10:19 ◼   ► developer for that sat down and said oh

00:10:21 ◼   ► I have this great genius idea like this

00:10:23 ◼   ► bird that jumps up and down and then

00:10:24 ◼   ► runs into pipes and like this is gonna

00:10:26 ◼   ► be it and I could turned out that was

00:10:28 ◼   ► huge I don't think you could have

00:10:30 ◼   ► characterized that as happen it being

00:10:31 ◼   ► huge ahead of time and so well I think

00:10:35 ◼   ► there's there's some amount of being

00:10:37 ◼   ► able to you to think about it it's so

00:10:39 ◼   ► important as like as a developer to

00:10:42 ◼   ► focus on the thing that is going to be

00:10:43 ◼   ► important isn't so much the idea like

00:10:44 ◼   ► you can have it the worst idea but you

00:10:48 ◼   ► know ingeniously implemented and be more

00:10:51 ◼   ► successful than the best idea poorly

00:10:53 ◼   ► implemented and so when I go through and

00:10:56 ◼   ► I'm thinking about what do I we know is

00:10:57 ◼   ► it do I want to build something it's

00:10:59 ◼   ► usually either you know is this

00:11:01 ◼   ► something

00:11:01 ◼   ► that I like it's it's you know it

00:11:05 ◼   ► scratches my own itch which is usually a

00:11:06 ◼   ► great place to start for an idea that

00:11:08 ◼   ► you have like rather than trying to

00:11:10 ◼   ► imagine a concept that some took far-off

00:11:14 ◼   ► somewhere that like I think people who

00:11:16 ◼   ► do this activity that I'm not really

00:11:19 ◼   ► related to to or you know think about

00:11:22 ◼   ► will do and trying to like project

00:11:26 ◼   ► yourself into that to make some things

00:11:27 ◼   ► like make something that makes sense to

00:11:29 ◼   ► you haven't I haven't think about the

00:11:30 ◼   ► ideas that you have for products or

00:11:32 ◼   ► things that are close and relevant to

00:11:34 ◼   ► you that's scratching it and you are

00:11:36 ◼   ► doing something in a way that you want

00:11:38 ◼   ► because at the very least you'll

00:11:39 ◼   ► understand it and then once you have

00:11:42 ◼   ► those types of ideas like you just just

00:11:44 ◼   ► like build it and you know this is

00:11:46 ◼   ► certainly the like you call it a Minimum

00:11:48 ◼   ► Viable Product or you could just call it

00:11:49 ◼   ► like not getting too stuck in the weeds

00:11:51 ◼   ► but a lot of the way that I've ended up

00:11:53 ◼   ► building things is I worry too I worry a

00:11:56 ◼   ► lot less about if it's a good idea and

00:11:58 ◼   ► maybe a better question is is that you

00:12:01 ◼   ► know could I make a good version of

00:12:02 ◼   ► whatever it is unbuilding like I have a

00:12:04 ◼   ► lot of my ideas for games for example

00:12:06 ◼   ► like I have I mean I have a big my how

00:12:10 ◼   ► many focus lists I have this big list of

00:12:11 ◼   ► things that I have an app idea I put it

00:12:15 ◼   ► in there

00:12:16 ◼   ► and I've been doing this for years and

00:12:18 ◼   ► there's a lot of junk in there there's a

00:12:21 ◼   ► few things that went on subsequently

00:12:24 ◼   ► like other people sort of implemented

00:12:25 ◼   ► the idea that I had had and we're

00:12:27 ◼   ► successful with it which is always kind

00:12:29 ◼   ► of a funny feeling and I think that is

00:12:30 ◼   ► where a lot of people's kind of

00:12:32 ◼   ► secretiveness about things or things can

00:12:34 ◼   ► come from that feeling of like oh man

00:12:36 ◼   ► someone else did what I you know did my

00:12:38 ◼   ► idea it's like well that's simultaneous

00:12:40 ◼   ► invention this is just the way it always

00:12:41 ◼   ► happens yeah all the time all the time

00:12:43 ◼   ► like you're not as special as you think

00:12:44 ◼   ► you are when you have your novel idea

00:12:46 ◼   ► but mostly like I would could like have

00:12:48 ◼   ► great ideas for games but I don't know

00:12:51 ◼   ► how to build a game and I don't really

00:12:53 ◼   ► want to learn how to do that and I don't

00:12:55 ◼   ► think that'd be a constructive use of my

00:12:56 ◼   ► time and so I don't build those things

00:12:58 ◼   ► and that's okay like those are

00:13:02 ◼   ► potentially good ideas but I would have

00:13:04 ◼   ► terrible execution for them so there's

00:13:08 ◼   ► no point of me pursuing those ideas we

00:13:09 ◼   ► want to make sense for me to do and this

00:13:11 ◼   ► is the advice I usually give yeah many

00:13:14 ◼   ► people are kind of asking

00:13:14 ◼   ► subs questions it's like what do you

00:13:16 ◼   ► think you could make a good version of

00:13:18 ◼   ► like what are you an expert in what is a

00:13:21 ◼   ► topic that you know more about than most

00:13:24 ◼   ► other people and there may not be a

00:13:27 ◼   ► martyr like a business case or a market

00:13:29 ◼   ► there which would be unfortunate like

00:13:31 ◼   ► ideally you have this great expertise in

00:13:33 ◼   ► an area that is relevant to a lot of

00:13:36 ◼   ► people but if you either way that's a

00:13:39 ◼   ► great place to start what do you think

00:13:41 ◼   ► about you know is this idea like could I

00:13:43 ◼   ► build a good version of this like do you

00:13:45 ◼   ► understand it could you you know do you

00:13:47 ◼   ► use it a lot like I might like the

00:13:50 ◼   ► imagine part of why you made overcast

00:13:52 ◼   ► because you listened to a lot of

00:13:53 ◼   ► podcasts and so you have a lot of

00:13:54 ◼   ► opinions you have a lot of ideas that

00:13:57 ◼   ► are not the the big idea and maybe

00:13:59 ◼   ► that's multum Utley where I'm heading

00:14:01 ◼   ► with this line of thought is the the big

00:14:04 ◼   ► idea

00:14:05 ◼   ► like the thing that you would like pitch

00:14:06 ◼   ► somebody they're like it's like uber but

00:14:09 ◼   ► for dogs okay that version of the idea

00:14:12 ◼   ► what you're trying to like boil it down

00:14:14 ◼   ► that's not the important part like the

00:14:16 ◼   ► important part is the teeny little

00:14:18 ◼   ► details that you're going to it will go

00:14:21 ◼   ► into actually building that product that

00:14:22 ◼   ► will make it a success or a failure like

00:14:26 ◼   ► those are the parts the little choices

00:14:28 ◼   ► that you're gonna make which you

00:14:30 ◼   ► probably aren't even thinking about when

00:14:32 ◼   ► you start off with like the grand idea

00:14:34 ◼   ► and so the quicker that you can get to a

00:14:36 ◼   ► point that you can say like okay do I

00:14:39 ◼   ► have a good ideas way down at that basic

00:14:41 ◼   ► tactical level for what's what am i

00:14:43 ◼   ► doing that's different or interesting

00:14:45 ◼   ► you know which problem is my actually

00:14:47 ◼   ► solving like that's where the really

00:14:49 ◼   ► interesting work will that will happen

00:14:51 ◼   ► and the sooner you can get to there the

00:14:53 ◼   ► better exactly there's so much like

00:14:55 ◼   ► fretting and focusing and anxiety about

00:14:57 ◼   ► people's ideas but it really does not

00:15:00 ◼   ► like the idea matter so little or in

00:15:04 ◼   ► many cases is so impossible to actually

00:15:07 ◼   ► do like just doing something doing

00:15:10 ◼   ► something boring well is way more

00:15:13 ◼   ► valuable in general and then doing some

00:15:15 ◼   ► crazy awesome idea and and a little tip

00:15:20 ◼   ► here if your idea begins with it's like

00:15:23 ◼   ► X but for Y if X is something worth a

00:15:28 ◼   ► dollars or more just don't even do that

00:15:31 ◼   ► idea because people will just like that

00:15:33 ◼   ► means that that thing is so big that why

00:15:35 ◼   ► people will just use X for that thing

00:15:38 ◼   ► it's just not worth it also there's also

00:15:42 ◼   ► like significant scale issues of like

00:15:44 ◼   ► you know saying something you know

00:15:46 ◼   ► something like like your example it's

00:15:47 ◼   ► it's like uber for dogs like you know

00:15:49 ◼   ► how much is involved in starting a

00:15:50 ◼   ► company like uber

00:15:51 ◼   ► it's like immense scale here that it's

00:15:54 ◼   ► it's so much easier to to do things that

00:15:59 ◼   ► are within the scope of what one person

00:16:01 ◼   ► or a very small company can do and so

00:16:04 ◼   ► many ideas are based on what you see

00:16:05 ◼   ► like in the consumer or web and the

00:16:07 ◼   ► consumer app world but those companies

00:16:09 ◼   ► built themselves up to that over years

00:16:12 ◼   ► and usually with millions and millions

00:16:15 ◼   ► of dollars in funding and with very

00:16:17 ◼   ► large staffs and also with a lot of luck

00:16:19 ◼   ► and timing that that you probably won't

00:16:21 ◼   ► have so it's important to contextualize

00:16:24 ◼   ► your ideas to like just in in time and

00:16:27 ◼   ► in scale you know like you can't build a

00:16:30 ◼   ► new Facebook today because Facebook is

00:16:32 ◼   ► Facebook and Facebook built Facebook 10

00:16:35 ◼   ► years ago 15 years ago like a it's a

00:16:37 ◼   ► different time now and so whatever the

00:16:39 ◼   ► big idea is going to be that you can

00:16:41 ◼   ► start as one person today is not

00:16:44 ◼   ► probably going to resemble a billion

00:16:46 ◼   ► plus dollar company that exists already

00:16:48 ◼   ► today take a quick break here and talk

00:16:50 ◼   ► about our sponsor this week it's

00:16:52 ◼   ► Braintree Braintree makes payments and

00:16:55 ◼   ► your job a whole lot easier so why make

00:16:57 ◼   ► payment integration more difficult than

00:16:59 ◼   ► it has to be brain trees powerful full

00:17:02 ◼   ► stack payment platform allows you to

00:17:04 ◼   ► accept nearly any type of payment from

00:17:06 ◼   ► any device with just one integration

00:17:08 ◼   ► it's flexible to your systems needs and

00:17:10 ◼   ► supports most programming languages so

00:17:12 ◼   ► whether you're using Java Ruby or Python

00:17:13 ◼   ► you'll always have a range of

00:17:15 ◼   ► server-side and client-side SDKs

00:17:17 ◼   ► available the Braintree code supports

00:17:19 ◼   ► Android iOS and JavaScript clients and

00:17:22 ◼   ► it takes just 10 lines of code to

00:17:24 ◼   ► implement Braintree makes payments and

00:17:26 ◼   ► your job a whole lot easier

00:17:28 ◼   ► learn more at Braintree payments comm

00:17:31 ◼   ► slash radar that is Braintree payments

00:17:34 ◼   ► comm slash radar thanks a lot to

00:17:36 ◼   ► Braintree for supporting under the radar

00:17:38 ◼   ► and all of real AFM I wanted to talk

00:17:41 ◼   ► about

00:17:42 ◼   ► something that has bitten me before and

00:17:44 ◼   ► that I think a lot of people don't think

00:17:45 ◼   ► about which is so you know we just

00:17:48 ◼   ► finished talking about how you should

00:17:50 ◼   ► you know keep in mind your scale as one

00:17:54 ◼   ► person or as as you know maybe maybe you

00:17:56 ◼   ► have a partner to try and make an app

00:17:58 ◼   ► with you but chances are you're like

00:17:59 ◼   ► between one and three people and you

00:18:01 ◼   ► might you might also be doing this

00:18:02 ◼   ► part-time while you still work a

00:18:03 ◼   ► full-time job to pay the bills so the

00:18:05 ◼   ► scale of what you can do is of course

00:18:07 ◼   ► limited compared to what somebody like

00:18:09 ◼   ► Facebook could do for exams for example

00:18:11 ◼   ► and you mentioned earlier you know like

00:18:13 ◼   ► how you view ideas for games and I do

00:18:16 ◼   ► too and I don't make the games that I

00:18:19 ◼   ► have ideas for for most of the same

00:18:20 ◼   ► reasons you don't meet to give you have

00:18:21 ◼   ► ideas for that we don't know how to make

00:18:23 ◼   ► games in my case I barely even play

00:18:25 ◼   ► games and I might have an idea for a

00:18:28 ◼   ► decent game that sounds like a good idea

00:18:29 ◼   ► but there's a very big difference

00:18:31 ◼   ► between the idea and being able to make

00:18:33 ◼   ► a fun game and then being able to make a

00:18:35 ◼   ► fun game that's successful and one of

00:18:38 ◼   ► the problems even if you are one of the

00:18:41 ◼   ► lucky few who can make a fun successful

00:18:43 ◼   ► game a lot of times this the people who

00:18:47 ◼   ► do this are bitten by a failure to plan

00:18:50 ◼   ► ahead for what happens next

00:18:52 ◼   ► or at least they're surprised what

00:18:54 ◼   ► happens next and in a bad way when

00:18:56 ◼   ► you're planning an app when you're

00:18:57 ◼   ► thinking of an idea when you're choosing

00:18:59 ◼   ► what to do also consider the end game

00:19:02 ◼   ► how does this story end if you succeed

00:19:05 ◼   ► right because you know you can you

00:19:07 ◼   ► you're probably focused on getting from

00:19:09 ◼   ► the present day to the launch day and

00:19:11 ◼   ► what what can you possibly do to make

00:19:13 ◼   ► this thing succeed or to make this thing

00:19:15 ◼   ► good and make people like this thing but

00:19:18 ◼   ► then think about - what happens if you

00:19:20 ◼   ► do succeed does that put you in a place

00:19:23 ◼   ► that you want to be and does this put

00:19:25 ◼   ► you in a business that you want to

00:19:26 ◼   ► operate so for example you launch you

00:19:31 ◼   ► launch some kind of big game based on or

00:19:34 ◼   ► some kind of fun game based on a really

00:19:36 ◼   ► good idea that you had what happens in

00:19:39 ◼   ► the App Store - good ideas they get

00:19:41 ◼   ► copied I think they get copied quickly

00:19:44 ◼   ► and brutally and thoroughly and

00:19:47 ◼   ► shamelessly copy I mean they the the

00:19:49 ◼   ► degree of copying the app store

00:19:51 ◼   ► especially in games is is just brutal

00:19:55 ◼   ► what happens if you have this great idea

00:19:57 ◼   ► for a game you can put it out there you

00:20:00 ◼   ► can even try to patent it or trademark

00:20:02 ◼   ► it and try try to protect it on some

00:20:04 ◼   ► level but your protections won't really

00:20:06 ◼   ► work in the grand scheme of things and

00:20:09 ◼   ► what if you have a good idea if your

00:20:12 ◼   ► idea succeeds at all it'll be copied

00:20:14 ◼   ► immediately so what would you do you

00:20:17 ◼   ► know if you if you release this thing

00:20:18 ◼   ► like are you planning for that or are

00:20:20 ◼   ► you aware that's going to happen are you

00:20:21 ◼   ► okay with that happening what happens if

00:20:23 ◼   ► it does happen can your business survive

00:20:25 ◼   ► will your will your projections about

00:20:27 ◼   ► what this might bring in be changed if

00:20:30 ◼   ► somebody else comes out with the same

00:20:31 ◼   ► thing for free you know if you're

00:20:33 ◼   ► charging something for yours or if

00:20:35 ◼   ► they're just succeeds more you know like

00:20:37 ◼   ► that you can you can look at things like

00:20:38 ◼   ► threes in 2048 and like there's so many

00:20:41 ◼   ► examples of this where like a big game

00:20:43 ◼   ► comes out but then somebody else comes

00:20:45 ◼   ► out or many people come out with like a

00:20:47 ◼   ► free version that is similar even if it

00:20:50 ◼   ► isn't exactly the same it could be it

00:20:51 ◼   ► could just be similar and that version

00:20:53 ◼   ► gets way more attention because it was

00:20:54 ◼   ► free or because it just it caught on

00:20:56 ◼   ► better or something else so you have to

00:20:58 ◼   ► plan for the immediate future of your

00:21:01 ◼   ► app of like what happens a month later

00:21:03 ◼   ► two months later a year later and you

00:21:05 ◼   ► also have to plan for what happens if

00:21:08 ◼   ► this succeeds on an ongoing basis then

00:21:11 ◼   ► what kind of business am I in and what

00:21:12 ◼   ► kind of involvement does that require

00:21:15 ◼   ► what kind of overhead does that require

00:21:17 ◼   ► and in something I want to do and this

00:21:18 ◼   ► is something I failed at in the past

00:21:20 ◼   ► with the magazine in particular where I

00:21:23 ◼   ► was so focused on building the app

00:21:26 ◼   ► building the magazine's app and building

00:21:28 ◼   ► like the technical side of it and the

00:21:29 ◼   ► reading experience that I really didn't

00:21:32 ◼   ► put enough thought into what happens if

00:21:35 ◼   ► this succeeds then then I have to put

00:21:38 ◼   ► out a magazine issue every two weeks

00:21:40 ◼   ► forever like that's a lot of work I have

00:21:42 ◼   ► to be an editor I have to deal with

00:21:44 ◼   ► writers I have to deal with people's

00:21:45 ◼   ► pitches and and I have to you know deal

00:21:48 ◼   ► with payments and processing and editing

00:21:50 ◼   ► and rights management and all so much

00:21:53 ◼   ► stuff it's like that's a lot of work and

00:21:55 ◼   ► I have no experience doing that and I do

00:21:57 ◼   ► I really want to be obligated every two

00:22:00 ◼   ► weeks to be putting out like a big book

00:22:01 ◼   ► block of content and the answer of

00:22:04 ◼   ► course was no this similarly happened to

00:22:08 ◼   ► me on a much

00:22:09 ◼   ► shorter but more intense timescale with

00:22:11 ◼   ► peace my AdBlocker from last summer

00:22:12 ◼   ► which is you know I I released this app

00:22:15 ◼   ► thinking that it would kind of fly under

00:22:18 ◼   ► the radar thing and thinking that it

00:22:21 ◼   ► would kind of you know be a moderate

00:22:23 ◼   ► success maybe you know maybe have a few

00:22:26 ◼   ► tens of thousands of users at most which

00:22:29 ◼   ► would be a great success for most apps

00:22:30 ◼   ► and and that would be and I would just

00:22:33 ◼   ► kind of you know let it kind of run and

00:22:35 ◼   ► put it in low maintenance mode and

00:22:37 ◼   ► forget about it because it wouldn't need

00:22:38 ◼   ► much maintenance allegedly and I I found

00:22:41 ◼   ► out very quickly first of all that that

00:22:43 ◼   ► piece succeeded beyond my wildest

00:22:46 ◼   ► expectations

00:22:47 ◼   ► it was it shot up to the top of the

00:22:49 ◼   ► charts and it was bring in good money

00:22:53 ◼   ► but it was also bringing a lot of

00:22:55 ◼   ► negative attention and exposure to

00:22:58 ◼   ► possible lawsuits and reputation damage

00:23:02 ◼   ► and all sorts of problems that was

00:23:05 ◼   ► bringing with me because it turns out

00:23:06 ◼   ► the ad blocking business is just really

00:23:09 ◼   ► messy and however you fall on the on the

00:23:12 ◼   ► politics of that it is a messy business

00:23:15 ◼   ► to be in and I I didn't quite foresee

00:23:19 ◼   ► that or think about that enough before I

00:23:22 ◼   ► did it

00:23:22 ◼   ► and it turned out I hated being in that

00:23:25 ◼   ► position it was it was like really

00:23:28 ◼   ► really ruining things for me in a lot of

00:23:31 ◼   ► ways just mostly like I couldn't take

00:23:34 ◼   ► the stress of it and and I was it was it

00:23:36 ◼   ► was a bad scene so I I hadn't properly

00:23:38 ◼   ► thought through like is this the

00:23:40 ◼   ► business I really want to be in if this

00:23:42 ◼   ► succeeds and I now as I think about

00:23:46 ◼   ► current and future projects that I do

00:23:48 ◼   ► now I think a lot more about that also

00:23:50 ◼   ► which is like you know so for so much of

00:23:53 ◼   ► my career I was worried about what

00:23:55 ◼   ► happened you know how would this thing

00:23:56 ◼   ► fail and and why would it fail and can I

00:23:58 ◼   ► prevent it from failing but you also

00:24:00 ◼   ► have to think about if it succeeds is

00:24:02 ◼   ► that even where you want to go yeah and

00:24:05 ◼   ► I think there's so much of this to of

00:24:07 ◼   ► there's this I definitely run into this

00:24:10 ◼   ► too and in many ways this is a problem

00:24:12 ◼   ► that I do I think I have I deal with it

00:24:13 ◼   ► from a similar problem but from a

00:24:15 ◼   ► different direction where I like the

00:24:19 ◼   ► thing that I don't keep into a take into

00:24:21 ◼   ► account typically

00:24:22 ◼   ► is that if I build a product and put out

00:24:24 ◼   ► in the store people are gonna expect it

00:24:26 ◼   ► to be updated and and supported and

00:24:29 ◼   ► supported and like that's a perfectly

00:24:30 ◼   ► reasonable thing and I very like a

00:24:33 ◼   ► couple years ago I started to realize

00:24:35 ◼   ► like I've gone through this pattern of

00:24:37 ◼   ► the mirror I have an idea I built it I

00:24:40 ◼   ► put it into the app store so many times

00:24:42 ◼   ► that the number of apps and things that

00:24:44 ◼   ► I am responsible for is there's too much

00:24:49 ◼   ► like it's kind of mind-bending that's

00:24:51 ◼   ► like sometimes I'll you know get a

00:24:53 ◼   ► customer support email for an app and

00:24:55 ◼   ► I'm like what happens this did I build

00:24:58 ◼   ► this like even I forgot about this

00:25:00 ◼   ► like and that's not good like this is

00:25:03 ◼   ► but I definitely ran into that same

00:25:05 ◼   ► problem and so as a result I am much

00:25:07 ◼   ► more careful about committing to a

00:25:10 ◼   ► project and heading down that road than

00:25:13 ◼   ► I used to be like I can imagine like

00:25:15 ◼   ► past past me what if it looked at this

00:25:18 ◼   ► fall and been like oh man look at all

00:25:20 ◼   ► this crazy stuff we can do in messaging

00:25:22 ◼   ► like I need to have like 10 sticker

00:25:23 ◼   ► packs on day one I need to have any kind

00:25:26 ◼   ► of thing I could ever possibly imagine

00:25:28 ◼   ► for iMessage like just throw sort of

00:25:30 ◼   ► like throw all the spaghetti at the wall

00:25:32 ◼   ► and see what sticks and maybe that sort

00:25:36 ◼   ► of works like there's something to it

00:25:37 ◼   ► it's a viable way to sort of test out a

00:25:41 ◼   ► market in in some ways but the

00:25:43 ◼   ► difficulty is making sure that you're

00:25:45 ◼   ► comfortable with what that looks like if

00:25:47 ◼   ► more things stick then you actually are

00:25:50 ◼   ► thinking will stick and being sure that

00:25:54 ◼   ► you're gay like you're saying getting

00:25:55 ◼   ► into businesses that you like because I

00:25:57 ◼   ► think this is a such an easy thing to

00:26:00 ◼   ► like it's so easy to underestimate the

00:26:04 ◼   ► difficulty of success because you it's

00:26:07 ◼   ► so easy to just think of success as the

00:26:10 ◼   ► like it's it's the dancing in the meadow

00:26:13 ◼   ► with oh yeah it's like it's great every

00:26:16 ◼   ► everything just this is exactly what I

00:26:17 ◼   ► wanted like it's it's popular it's been

00:26:20 ◼   ► well respected it's bringing in money

00:26:21 ◼   ► like what could be wrong it's like well

00:26:24 ◼   ► depending on why it's succeeding or what

00:26:28 ◼   ► it is or the time amount of time and

00:26:31 ◼   ► effort that it took for it to succeed

00:26:32 ◼   ► you may not actually like that like I

00:26:35 ◼   ► think of

00:26:36 ◼   ► two of I had the idea when a while a

00:26:39 ◼   ► while back that I wanted to was like you

00:26:41 ◼   ► know I think I could make a really cool

00:26:42 ◼   ► feed reader this was even before Google

00:26:45 ◼   ► Reader announced that they were gonna

00:26:46 ◼   ► close and then started working on it and

00:26:48 ◼   ► then Google Reader and Island State

00:26:49 ◼   ► they're gonna close and I was like great

00:26:52 ◼   ► this is perfect like I've been working

00:26:53 ◼   ► on this project and now there's this

00:26:55 ◼   ► great marketing opportunity so I went

00:26:57 ◼   ► for it like I made feed Wrangler and

00:26:59 ◼   ► well I wouldn't say that I regret making

00:27:01 ◼   ► feed Wrangler and it like it's still

00:27:03 ◼   ► ongoing to this day like it's been a

00:27:05 ◼   ► successful product for me there was a

00:27:07 ◼   ► period where I'd had no idea what it

00:27:09 ◼   ► would mean to actually like have a web

00:27:12 ◼   ► service that's you know at any amount in

00:27:14 ◼   ► any appreciable scale and so I spent the

00:27:17 ◼   ► better part of you know a few months

00:27:18 ◼   ► like hardly sleeping hardly seeing my

00:27:22 ◼   ► family like constantly dealing with

00:27:23 ◼   ► server fires and scaling issues and like

00:27:26 ◼   ► that's great insofar as like I released

00:27:29 ◼   ► it and people liked it and so it was

00:27:32 ◼   ► successful but I wasn't prepared for

00:27:34 ◼   ► that success and so in many ways that

00:27:39 ◼   ► would probably have a great idea and I

00:27:40 ◼   ► think ultimately a lot of these things

00:27:42 ◼   ► kind of in my mind they feed back into

00:27:44 ◼   ► this part of me that's it's like the the

00:27:47 ◼   ► classic like a fear of missing out kind

00:27:49 ◼   ► of a mindset where when I think of say

00:27:51 ◼   ► even feed Wrangler like yeah at the time

00:27:55 ◼   ► I had such this anxiety about well I

00:27:58 ◼   ► have the ability to do this and I could

00:28:01 ◼   ► do it and if I don't like someone else

00:28:03 ◼   ► will and they may be really successful

00:28:05 ◼   ► and like the fear of missing that

00:28:08 ◼   ► opportunity may clouded my judgment as

00:28:11 ◼   ► to what I was actually getting involved

00:28:12 ◼   ► in and I think that is a pattern that

00:28:15 ◼   ► happens you know more often than we

00:28:17 ◼   ► wished it did where it's easy to focus

00:28:21 ◼   ► on like like somebody is like somebody

00:28:24 ◼   ► this fall is gonna make a sticker pack

00:28:26 ◼   ► that's gonna make thousands of dollars

00:28:28 ◼   ► almost certainly like just look at the

00:28:31 ◼   ► top paid list in the App Store and kind

00:28:34 ◼   ► of it blows my mind a little bit like

00:28:35 ◼   ► the things that are making lots of money

00:28:37 ◼   ► in the App Store these days like the App

00:28:39 ◼   ► Store is a weird place but that's the

00:28:40 ◼   ► topic for another day but just because

00:28:43 ◼   ► that's maybe true it doesn't mean that I

00:28:46 ◼   ► want to get into that business and be

00:28:48 ◼   ► chasing whatever it's going to be

00:28:50 ◼   ► successful there I need to be

00:28:51 ◼   ► comfortable saying you know what I'm

00:28:53 ◼   ► gonna miss out I'm gonna choose to miss

00:28:54 ◼   ► out on that potential opportunity and

00:28:57 ◼   ► focus on something a business that I

00:28:58 ◼   ► want to be in a business that I think

00:29:00 ◼   ► isn't just a good idea but it's an idea

00:29:02 ◼   ► that I want to live with going forward

00:29:04 ◼   ► and can see myself being in this

00:29:06 ◼   ► industry you know being in a bit like

00:29:08 ◼   ► right now I make health and fitness apps

00:29:09 ◼   ► and I love making health and fitness

00:29:11 ◼   ► apps like that's my focus and I can see

00:29:13 ◼   ► being in that focus for a you know

00:29:14 ◼   ► forever because it's rewarding it's fun

00:29:17 ◼   ► it's personal it's great like that's the

00:29:20 ◼   ► way that I can look at these ideas and

00:29:21 ◼   ► say are they worth doing can I live with

00:29:24 ◼   ► it you know for the rest of my life is

00:29:25 ◼   ► sensibly are these for the rest of my

00:29:26 ◼   ► career and that's what I didn't do with

00:29:29 ◼   ► peace and now I've learned there you go

00:29:31 ◼   ► good learning experience

00:29:32 ◼   ► alright we're out of time this week

00:29:34 ◼   ► thanks for listening everybody and we

00:29:36 ◼   ► will talk to you next week

00:29:37 ◼   ► bye