Under the Radar 28: Wear Your Own T-Shirt
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welcome to under the radar our show but
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independent iOS app development I'm
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Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
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the radar is never longer than 30
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minutes so let's get started so today
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what I wanted to talk through is and the
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broader concepts but something that
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started from a sort of my initial
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planning for getting ready to go in a 10
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WWDC this year where one of the things
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that I was thinking about is the
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interactions that I tend to have at the
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can at the actual convention at the you
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know on the floor and something that has
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happened several times is I'll you know
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be walking around and I'll just randomly
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bump into somebody and start to you know
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chatting and it's like as we start
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talking eventually we get to a point
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that they're like oh wait you're the guy
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who did pedometer plus plus like I love
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that app or something like that where
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you have this interaction where it's
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like eventually they do sort of it did
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this there's this discovery of a comment
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and like a common ground it's almost an
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yeah it's and that accidental nature of
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it is the problem is the problem that I
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wanted to talk about today because what
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I've been thinking about is like well
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what most companies do when they're
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encounter this kind of a thing it's like
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if you walk around WTC you will see
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people wearing like 1password shirts and
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you know they work fragile bits or
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you'll see you know companies with omni
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shirts on or whatever and you'll know
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they work for Omni and so if you like on
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here and when we talk to someone who
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works there like you know how to go how
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to go about doing that but it feels
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weird in some ways at least initially it
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started feeling weird and I was like try
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and like make shirts that say you know
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it's like my apps and have like
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phenomena or plus plus or sleep plus
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plus or under the radar even or even
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just my name like put on it and it it's
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weird because it feels a bit like like
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like self-promotion in that way feels a
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bit odd and the more I've thought about
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this I need to probably not think about
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it in those ways but it seemed like an
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interesting topic to talk about because
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I struggle with this with this weird
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tension of it's like if I were if I was
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working for a bigger company and I was
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going to a convention
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that company said hey you know here's
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you know five t-shirts that have a
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various products on it would love it if
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you could wear them during the thing and
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you know see if that can you know start
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a conversation help a conversation along
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like I wouldn't feel weird about doing
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that it would be like yeah totally you
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know I'm a team player let's do this
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but when it's like me promoting myself
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it feels a bit weird and that tension is
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a strange thing I think in some ways
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it's unique to being an indie but I
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think a lot of people probably struggle
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with this type of thing when your brand
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is more personal rather than sort of
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more corporate yeah I mean this is I
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think a lot of this plays into what I
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think would probably be like the
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stereotypical geek personality that many
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people in our industry I think us
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included I have which is you know it's
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it's hard for people with this
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personality type to self-promote it's
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hard for them to like brag about
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themselves and promote promote their
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work a lot of times and this is
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something I had to just get over over
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the years honestly and I'm still not
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great at it but it's it's really hard
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for certain personality types to to be
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willing to do that and I think what it
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what helps to to distinguish here
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between like times you should and
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shouldn't do that or wet we know when or
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where you shouldn't shouldn't do that is
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to recognize that there are lots of
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situations in which you know like like
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walking around WTC tons of people there
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are wearing their own t-shirts like
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there that is if there's ever a time in
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place to wear your own t-shirt of the
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app you make or the company you work for
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it's at a conference full of other
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people doing the exact same thing like
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the the cost of you doing that the risk
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of you doing that is absolutely lowest
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they're at during that week and there's
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also you know situations like like if
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you are at a you know a tech meetup or
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you know it just any place where you're
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where you're know you're gonna be
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stranded by other software developers or
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other people in your in your business
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who are probably going to also be doing
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the same thing like that's totally fine
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not only are you like you know not only
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will will the world tolerate your
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self-promotion during that time but as
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you mentioned like for purposes like
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starting up conversations or trying to
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meet people who make the apps you like
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it's actually helpful you actually
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you're actually helping people find you
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who want to find you or who are
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interested in your in your app or or who
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know who you are or who want to know who
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you are so it's like you're actually
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helping help by by being self
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promotional in certain contexts such as
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those kind of you know real-life
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gatherings of similar types of people
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and that you know it's just one of those
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things where you just kind of have to
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you just kind of had to think of it from
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the other person's perspective of like
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if I wear a shirt that identifies me as
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the maker of this app or that or as the
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host of the show or whatever is the
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other person more likely to think I'm
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being like an arrogant jerk or more
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likely to recognize that from for people
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who want to who are who are who are
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interested in saying hi to me and and
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will and that'll make their job actually
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easier and they will appreciate that
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rather than trying to guess wait is that
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underscore there's just a line on a
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shirt but that could be an underscore or
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it could just be like a line because
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it's kind of hard to put your name on a
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shirt so I you know like there are so
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many contexts like that in which you're
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actually helping the other people by
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doing that yeah and it's it's an
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interesting thing too because I think
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about the tension your soul I can
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examine that there's a similar example
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that's also a bit of a tension is like
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the degree to which you talk about or
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like mentioned when people say nice
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things about your products right it's
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like similar in this way where if
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there's this strange tension around you
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notice it's like if someone writes a
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nice review of one of one of my apps do
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I like you know put that on Twitter put
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on my blog it's like that feels a little
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weird like retweeting when people say
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nice things about you like that's a
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little gauche I guess like it's not
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great but I think it what I've been
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trying to work through is why that feels
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weird versus what I'm increasingly
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coming to grips with about being fine
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with of the like it's good for people
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know who you are and to know what you're
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associated with and like that's just
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building a brand versus being it's like
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what can you start to get to the
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question of what kind of brand do you
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want to be and that's I think the more
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interesting place to or like I need to
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get comfortable with like the first step
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like I am I am a brand like I have a
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following online I do things in a public
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in a public way like I make apps that
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are used by hundreds of thousands of
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people like that's an important thing
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and I need just be okay with that and
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it's like okay well what kind of brand
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do I want to be because even big
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companies have different brands that
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makes like they have different
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personalities to them like there's ones
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that are very kind of like a casual or
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very formal or very inviting and you
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know even down to the things like I'm
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thinking about like I'm working on that
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you know what what design should I have
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for like my shirt and it's like well
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it's probably gonna be kind of geeky
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like I'm going to make something that's
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a little bit that that's not just like a
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picture of an app icon like it's going
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to be a little bit silly and that
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probably speaks more to like the
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personality of my company in my own
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personality and I think that works but
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it's like an important thing that I
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really if it's kind of bad in some ways
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like I've been doing this for so long
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but I'm still have these like these
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basic elements of marketing that I'm
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just not really comfortable with or have
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really thought through I mean I think it
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really does have a lot to do with the
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context you know as I said earlier like
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you know there are some context in which
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people actually are being helped by by
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your marketing and you know - like your
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example of like do you retweet things
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that are complimentary in the context of
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people who follow you on twitter who are
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going to see this they don't need that
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that that is not really helping them to
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hear how awesome you are because they
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already follow you they already think
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you're awesome they don't need to see
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everyone else thinking you're awesome
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and you're retweeting that and it just
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makes you look arrogant but if you have
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a page for your product like a webpage
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or even like people who could use the
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description field on the app store for
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this purpose put-put
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endorsements they're like put positive
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reviews like the way people pull out
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call quotes like like you know people
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like people do a movie posters
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and you know put in the ellipses so
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everything sounds good you know I think
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like if if prominent people or
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publications or anybody really says
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something nice about you yet maybe don't
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retweet it but put it on your marketing
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page because in that kind of context
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that is not only appropriate but can be
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helpful to people who are visiting to
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kind of see like you know who else has
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vetted this app who you know is are
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there any big publications or names that
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I've heard of who've said nice things
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about this like that's actually useful
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information in that context so I think
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you know it's it's tempting to just step
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back and say well I I don't feel
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comfortable doing any of this so I'm
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just gonna let people find my stuff but
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people won't find your stuff like that's
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not how this works and that's that's
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kind of it's it's almost a naive view of
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like how how this world works now that
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it's very tempting to to think it's a
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very appealing notion to think that you
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know I can just put something good out
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there and it'll it'll get found people
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will find it and sometimes that does
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really happen but it really helps a lot
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if you can grease the wheels a little
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bit if you could get a lot more people
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to look at it first and the way you do
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that is is some kind of promotion some
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kind of telling people what you're about
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and I think the line that has to be
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drawn is figuring out when such
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promotion would be considered
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inappropriate and not doing it in those
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places but then finding the
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opportunities where it is appropriate or
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where it is even helpful and trying to
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focus your efforts there and that's that
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isn't always an easy line for a lot of
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people to find you know and certain
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certain products make an easier harder
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certain personality types make that
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easier or harder to it to figure out
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where that line is but there are places
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where it is totally appropriate to
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market yourself and to market your app
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and it isn't really if you think about
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it it isn't even really that hard to
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think about what those places might be
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you know obviously there's conferences
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and person things and I would say
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anywhere where like you're going to a
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meeting and everybody like passes out
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business cards that's not that's not
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what I'm talking about that's just
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waste of paper but that is actually a
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thing I've been wondering it's like
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should I have business cards like I've
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met business cards in years I I think in
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our business the answer of generally is
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no yeah but like this is every now and
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I'm like I wonder if I'll at some point
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I'll run into somebody who would be
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important to be able to for them to know
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like reach back out to me and it's like
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I have no I have nothing to give you is
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like I can write my name on your hand
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like that's all I've got like it's not
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it's not great but it's the same kind of
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thing because like there are
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opportunities like that like what you're
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just saying it's like having those
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contexts where it's completely
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appropriate to interact in a marketing
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way and say like it's like I'm this
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person here's my app and I have
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something to hand to them like it's if
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you went to a trade show and had a booth
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like you'll have things to hand out to
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people because it's a context rupee if
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someone wants to receive that you want
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to be able to give it to them right
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exactly and that's like there are so
00:12:00
◼
►
many contexts like that in which your
00:12:02
◼
►
self-promotion is welcome or helpful and
00:12:05
◼
►
so for instance we talked in the past
00:12:07
◼
►
about about pitching the press on your
00:12:09
◼
►
app this is a great example of this kind
00:12:11
◼
►
of thing where you know a web site that
00:12:13
◼
►
posts links to things and reviews things
00:12:15
◼
►
every day like daring fireball or Mac
00:12:17
◼
►
stories or I'm or these sites need
00:12:20
◼
►
things to post every day you're not
00:12:22
◼
►
putting them out by suggesting hey might
00:12:25
◼
►
want me and maybe check this out that I
00:12:26
◼
►
just made it it solves this problem like
00:12:28
◼
►
that you're not like you know I mean you
00:12:31
◼
►
can be you can do it badly in a way this
00:12:33
◼
►
seems spamming but if you just do it
00:12:35
◼
►
like a human in a respectful way it
00:12:38
◼
►
tends to be welcomed and that isn't to
00:12:41
◼
►
say that they are guaranteed to to link
00:12:43
◼
►
to you to cover you to give you a
00:12:44
◼
►
positive review but you have to at least
00:12:46
◼
►
do the first step of like letting people
00:12:48
◼
►
know about your app because sites like
00:12:51
◼
►
that need things to post every day so by
00:12:54
◼
►
you promoting your app to them you are
00:12:56
◼
►
not annoying them you are helping them
00:12:59
◼
►
do their job like that so and so find
00:13:02
◼
►
places we're hearing about your app will
00:13:06
◼
►
help people do a job in a way that is
00:13:09
◼
►
not spammy or annoying yeah so like for
00:13:11
◼
►
me like you know blind the email blasts
00:13:14
◼
►
when people blast email all over me I
00:13:16
◼
►
don't I don't appreciate that very much
00:13:18
◼
►
and one of the main reasons is because
00:13:20
◼
►
like the the lists that people tend to I
00:13:24
◼
►
assume by often include bad addresses
00:13:28
◼
►
things like overcast support a dress a
00:13:31
◼
►
hat like that's not an appropriate place
00:13:33
◼
►
to send promotional stuff about your
00:13:35
◼
►
service to make developers lives easier
00:13:36
◼
►
but you know if like people run websites
00:13:40
◼
►
that review apps and there's no there's
00:13:43
◼
►
a contact form there or there's an email
00:13:45
◼
►
address there for like hey hey send your
00:13:47
◼
►
you know PR inquiries or whatever here
00:13:49
◼
►
like that is the appropriate place that
00:13:51
◼
►
they're asking you to do that there so
00:13:52
◼
►
find places like that and and use that
00:13:55
◼
►
to your advantage because honestly in
00:13:58
◼
►
this business you have to be some degree
00:14:01
◼
►
of self promotional because there's so
00:14:03
◼
►
much out there there's so many other
00:14:04
◼
►
apps there's so many other services
00:14:06
◼
►
there's so many other consultants no
00:14:08
◼
►
matter what you're doing in the in the
00:14:10
◼
►
mobile app development business it's
00:14:12
◼
►
crowded these days and you have to stand
00:14:15
◼
►
out somehow there are so many people out
00:14:18
◼
►
there who don't do any reasonable amount
00:14:20
◼
►
of self-promotion who can't do it right
00:14:22
◼
►
or who don't do it right if you can just
00:14:25
◼
►
do that correctly at all you don't even
00:14:27
◼
►
have to be great it just just be ok at
00:14:29
◼
►
it and that will put you in like the top
00:14:31
◼
►
5% of pretty much everybody else out
00:14:33
◼
►
there doing the exact same thing as you
00:14:35
◼
►
so that helps a lot and I would even
00:14:37
◼
►
argue that if you're the kind of person
00:14:40
◼
►
who who is just really having a hard
00:14:42
◼
►
time with self-promotion and who really
00:14:44
◼
►
can't do it I would argue that you're
00:14:47
◼
►
probably better off working for a
00:14:49
◼
►
company than working on your own because
00:14:51
◼
►
it's such an important part of working
00:14:53
◼
►
on your own that if you can't do it
00:14:55
◼
►
someone else should be doing it for you
00:14:57
◼
►
yeah and I think that's a great part
00:14:59
◼
►
like aspect that I need always need to
00:15:01
◼
►
remind myself about where just because
00:15:04
◼
►
like I got into this business to write
00:15:06
◼
►
software like to sit open Xcode and work
00:15:09
◼
►
in there and just because that's what
00:15:11
◼
►
I'm good at and just because that's what
00:15:13
◼
►
I like like doing most doesn't somehow
00:15:16
◼
►
mean that the other aspects of running a
00:15:19
◼
►
software business like go away that like
00:15:21
◼
►
they're not going to like somehow like
00:15:23
◼
►
oh well that's what I do so I'm just
00:15:25
◼
►
going to do that it's like no there are
00:15:26
◼
►
many aspects to running a business that
00:15:28
◼
►
I have to do and like some of them I can
00:15:32
◼
►
like I have an accountant who files my
00:15:34
◼
►
taxes for me because that's in a very
00:15:36
◼
►
vital important part of my business but
00:15:38
◼
►
it's something that I really don't want
00:15:40
◼
►
to do that's something that she is way
00:15:42
◼
►
better at doing than I am so I have her
00:15:45
◼
►
have someone do that and so when I think
00:15:47
◼
►
about something like marketing which is
00:15:48
◼
►
a which is really but all of this is
00:15:50
◼
►
like this is promotion and publicity and
00:15:51
◼
►
marketing like it there are it's a
00:15:53
◼
►
division within a bigger company it's
00:15:56
◼
►
even if it's not something that I want
00:15:57
◼
►
to do or feel qualified or skilled at
00:16:00
◼
►
doing it's still something that's
00:16:01
◼
►
important for me to get you know develop
00:16:04
◼
►
that skill get better at etc because
00:16:07
◼
►
it's not gonna if it doesn't happen it's
00:16:09
◼
►
not like that's fine it's problematic
00:16:11
◼
►
for my business and in in a big way -
00:16:14
◼
►
its key of having the mindset after that
00:16:16
◼
►
if I don't do this then all the work I'm
00:16:18
◼
►
doing in Xcode is in many ways kind of
00:16:22
◼
►
diminished because fewer people are
00:16:25
◼
►
going to benefit from it you know fewer
00:16:26
◼
►
people are going to see the products I
00:16:27
◼
►
make and that's like I'm sort of like
00:16:30
◼
►
shooting myself in the foot and so it's
00:16:32
◼
►
like it has to be done and so it's like
00:16:35
◼
►
yeah it's these thing weird things are
00:16:36
◼
►
having to relieve think about how can I
00:16:38
◼
►
get better at this like how can I find
00:16:40
◼
►
be ok with and like under you know with
00:16:44
◼
►
marketing myself what are things that I
00:16:45
◼
►
should be doing that I don't you know
00:16:47
◼
►
like a lot of my apps don't have good
00:16:48
◼
►
really great websites or social media
00:16:52
◼
►
presences or things like there are
00:16:54
◼
►
aspects of them that I think about that
00:16:55
◼
►
I'm like should I be doing more in that
00:16:57
◼
►
should I not like does it matter
00:16:59
◼
►
and maybe in our business like
00:17:00
◼
►
specifically in the app store I don't
00:17:02
◼
►
know the degree to which you having a
00:17:04
◼
►
good website matters but it's definitely
00:17:07
◼
►
something that I know I have to keep
00:17:09
◼
►
reminding myself because my default is
00:17:11
◼
►
never gonna be oh like focus ton on
00:17:14
◼
►
marketing because that's not what I'm
00:17:16
◼
►
like good at or skill that and got into
00:17:18
◼
►
this business to do in the first place
00:17:20
◼
►
we are brought to you this week by
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◼
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Pingdom start monitoring your websites
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they do this by offering powerful and
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performance of your server your database
00:17:49
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or your entire website and by the way
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you don't actually have to own the
00:17:53
◼
►
website you can monitor other people's
00:17:54
◼
►
websites for things like uptime or
00:17:56
◼
►
changes like underscore and I we we used
00:18:00
◼
►
to run these checks to monitor the WDC
00:18:02
◼
►
site for changes so that we could be the
00:18:05
◼
►
first to know when the new year of WBC
00:18:07
◼
►
tickets were announced and we could go
00:18:09
◼
►
buy them before the lottery system it
00:18:10
◼
►
actually worked really well didn't it
00:18:11
◼
►
yeah I mean their their ability to
00:18:14
◼
►
detect changes is way better than any
00:18:17
◼
►
other system I've ever used so it's like
00:18:19
◼
►
when we were back in the day when it was
00:18:21
◼
►
this mad rush to get it to get to WB DC
00:18:23
◼
►
and oh man I'm so glad those aren't the
00:18:25
◼
►
days anymore but yeah that's like I'd
00:18:27
◼
►
get you know my phone would just light
00:18:28
◼
►
up like a Christmas tree
00:18:29
◼
►
every time tickets were available for
00:18:31
◼
►
WGC and I would know like within a few
00:18:34
◼
►
seconds of the you know Apple publishing
00:18:36
◼
►
the change I knew about it because
00:18:38
◼
►
Pingdom is really on it and really
00:18:40
◼
►
responsive to like detecting these kinds
00:18:42
◼
►
of things yeah I mean and I've I have
00:18:45
◼
►
used Pingdom myself since April of 2007
00:18:49
◼
►
firstly you know use it a tumbler you
00:18:51
◼
►
said it Instapaper use it at overcast
00:18:53
◼
►
and I use it for my own blog for during
00:18:55
◼
►
during most of that time as well I still
00:18:57
◼
►
use it then so I have been using Pingdom
00:19:00
◼
►
for longer than the iPhone has been out
00:19:02
◼
►
the first iPhone like so to give you
00:19:06
◼
►
some idea you know way before they're
00:19:07
◼
►
responsive I've been using them for a
00:19:08
◼
►
long time I have a lot of experience
00:19:11
◼
►
with them they're great I strongly
00:19:13
◼
►
recommend that if you have any kind of
00:19:16
◼
►
website or web service that you care
00:19:19
◼
►
about at all from a blog to a service
00:19:22
◼
►
that your apps depend on to a marketing
00:19:24
◼
►
page or whatever else have Pingdom
00:19:26
◼
►
monitor it because first of all you'd be
00:19:28
◼
►
surprised how often you have a little
00:19:30
◼
►
outages at your host and that's good to
00:19:31
◼
►
know and when you know doing things like
00:19:33
◼
►
deciding what what hosts to go with or
00:19:35
◼
►
what kind of hosts to go with and you
00:19:37
◼
►
know you can get things fixed quickly I
00:19:39
◼
►
I just I cannot recommend Pingdom enough
00:19:42
◼
►
because here's what you don't want to
00:19:44
◼
►
happen you don't want for you know for
00:19:47
◼
►
you to be out all day and then you
00:19:49
◼
►
launch your Twitter app and then you see
00:19:52
◼
►
that six hours ago people on Twitter
00:19:54
◼
►
started telling you hey your site's down
00:19:56
◼
►
hey your site's down hey your site's to
00:19:58
◼
►
you that's that's
00:20:00
◼
►
not good that's not good for your
00:20:02
◼
►
reputation it's not good for possibly
00:20:04
◼
►
your income if your site is what
00:20:06
◼
►
generates your money it certainly does
00:20:08
◼
►
not look very professional if you have
00:20:10
◼
►
to wait until people on Twitter tell
00:20:11
◼
►
your site is down before you realize
00:20:13
◼
►
it's down with Pingdom you are the first
00:20:15
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to know it can check your site as often
00:20:17
◼
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as once a minute and it can text you it
00:20:19
◼
►
can send push notifications it can send
00:20:21
◼
►
emails it can do all those things or
00:20:23
◼
►
some of those things none of those
00:20:24
◼
►
things or some of those things
00:20:25
◼
►
conditionally based on how severe it is
00:20:27
◼
►
it is so great I again I've been using
00:20:30
◼
►
it since 2007 strongly recommend it
00:20:32
◼
►
check it out go to Pingdom calm for a
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14-day free trial and use code radar to
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get 20% off at checkout thanks a lot to
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ping them for sponsoring us once again
00:20:41
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all right so I think it's interesting to
00:20:45
◼
►
to consider you know all these these
00:20:47
◼
►
marketing angles and everything as you
00:20:50
◼
►
know what's appropriate and what's not
00:20:53
◼
►
obviously we can talk about this
00:20:54
◼
►
academically and and it seems like I
00:20:58
◼
►
have a slightly easier time than you do
00:21:00
◼
►
or at least I
00:21:01
◼
►
I started earlier the path towards self
00:21:03
◼
►
promotion so you know at as you as you
00:21:08
◼
►
know all the same things I do you know
00:21:09
◼
►
as you can think about the same things
00:21:11
◼
►
rationally what are the irrational
00:21:13
◼
►
pressures or fears or conflicts that you
00:21:17
◼
►
feel about this that other people might
00:21:19
◼
►
relate to that you know and and can you
00:21:23
◼
►
talk about maybe like just like the
00:21:25
◼
►
feeling side of this like once you know
00:21:27
◼
►
what you should be doing what still
00:21:29
◼
►
stops you from doing it and what might
00:21:31
◼
►
be a way that you could overcome that
00:21:32
◼
►
yeah the one that comes to mind the most
00:21:35
◼
►
and I think this is it's like at the
00:21:38
◼
►
core of so much of these challenges is
00:21:41
◼
►
that feeling of
00:21:42
◼
►
it's like putting yourself out there
00:21:45
◼
►
where I mean I still do every time I
00:21:48
◼
►
write up an email to the press I always
00:21:52
◼
►
have this feeling of like I can be so
00:21:54
◼
►
proud of my app and what it does and how
00:21:57
◼
►
well it works
00:21:58
◼
►
and I'm sitting down to write this to
00:22:00
◼
►
somebody and I get nervous and worried
00:22:03
◼
►
and like what if they don't like it what
00:22:05
◼
►
if they hate it what if they are gonna
00:22:07
◼
►
you know reject me or be mean to me or
00:22:10
◼
►
whatever like you can give these various
00:22:12
◼
►
like you know sort of visceral feelings
00:22:14
◼
►
that and I think around marketing and a
00:22:16
◼
►
lot of these kind of like self
00:22:17
◼
►
promotional things there is certainly an
00:22:19
◼
►
element of that of this whenever anytime
00:22:21
◼
►
that you are sort of really sort of
00:22:24
◼
►
putting out your name in a way in a
00:22:26
◼
►
public obvious way intentionally drawing
00:22:29
◼
►
attention to yourself it's like you're
00:22:31
◼
►
also setting yourself up for the
00:22:32
◼
►
possibility of someone not liking you
00:22:35
◼
►
and I think the thing that you have to
00:22:39
◼
►
at certain point come to grips with is a
00:22:42
◼
►
like there's always going to be people
00:22:44
◼
►
who don't like you like no matter how
00:22:45
◼
►
likeable you are there's always going to
00:22:47
◼
►
be that and there's a certain amount of
00:22:49
◼
►
just like you have to get Bo be okay
00:22:51
◼
►
with that and not like get your you know
00:22:53
◼
►
your value from other people like you
00:22:55
◼
►
have to you know if I look at something
00:22:57
◼
►
I make and I think it's good then that
00:22:59
◼
►
at a certain point has to be enough that
00:23:01
◼
►
it is a can't it doesn't have to just be
00:23:03
◼
►
validated externally and but then it's
00:23:07
◼
►
also just V being and being aware that
00:23:09
◼
►
that's probably also not what's gonna
00:23:11
◼
►
happen like the number of times I've had
00:23:13
◼
►
the negative version of that you are
00:23:16
◼
►
like I can remember them because that's
00:23:19
◼
►
just the way human nature is that we
00:23:20
◼
►
think like the impact of the negative is
00:23:23
◼
►
what is disproportionate the impact are
00:23:25
◼
►
the positive you know hundred people can
00:23:27
◼
►
say a nice thing and one person can say
00:23:28
◼
►
a mean thing and you remember that mean
00:23:30
◼
►
thing but overall like that's not my
00:23:34
◼
►
experience and it's but it's having to
00:23:37
◼
►
overcome the emotional part of that of
00:23:40
◼
►
that feeling of just like that
00:23:41
◼
►
nervousness and the shyness I mean and
00:23:43
◼
►
it's the same thing that happens in in
00:23:46
◼
►
life like I remember we talked about
00:23:49
◼
►
this a couple weeks ago with going to
00:23:50
◼
►
tap YouTube EDC and looks like it's that
00:23:52
◼
►
same feeling of when I'd see someone
00:23:55
◼
►
that I'd recognize it's like oh should I
00:23:57
◼
►
go say hi like I'd love to meet them but
00:24:00
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being nervous about that and being
00:24:01
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nervous how the conversation will go and
00:24:02
◼
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all these types of things when in
00:24:04
◼
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reality it goes fine like that's just
00:24:07
◼
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not the that's just not the reality like
00:24:10
◼
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people are generally very polite and
00:24:12
◼
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very nice and it'll go well but that
00:24:15
◼
►
certainly is a like a genuine feeling to
00:24:17
◼
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overcome of that feeling of like is this
00:24:19
◼
►
good enough is it going to go well
00:24:22
◼
►
and so anytime you're drawing attention
00:24:23
◼
►
to yourself like that's just part of the
00:24:26
◼
►
bio that's just part of it but there's
00:24:27
◼
►
definitely that like kind of irrational
00:24:29
◼
►
feeling of like oh no like what if what
00:24:31
◼
►
if people don't like me oh sure I mean
00:24:33
◼
►
and and there's not I mean that's that's
00:24:36
◼
►
hard for like you know III would expect
00:24:38
◼
►
a lot of people who like computers who
00:24:42
◼
►
were roughly our age probably had a
00:24:44
◼
►
rough time socially in school growing up
00:24:46
◼
►
I sure did and it's and a lot of those
00:24:49
◼
►
pressures like come right back to life
00:24:50
◼
►
feeling like you're in high school again
00:24:52
◼
►
or middle school again and like getting
00:24:54
◼
►
socially rejected or romantically
00:24:55
◼
►
rejected and and there's like these
00:24:57
◼
►
deep-rooted scars that so many of us
00:24:59
◼
►
have from from growing up in that kind
00:25:01
◼
►
of situation and so it's really hard to
00:25:04
◼
►
overcome that feeling but the good thing
00:25:05
◼
►
is as you mentioned like you know people
00:25:07
◼
►
are generally nice and polite because
00:25:10
◼
►
you know what we aren't in high school
00:25:11
◼
►
anymore like everyone around us now as
00:25:14
◼
►
like as an adult and usually they're a
00:25:16
◼
►
lot like us similar back and so it's the
00:25:22
◼
►
the chances of like getting really
00:25:24
◼
►
scarred and and and rejected in the ways
00:25:27
◼
►
that we're all like consciously or
00:25:29
◼
►
subconsciously afraid of I think are
00:25:31
◼
►
pretty low you know we're we're adults
00:25:33
◼
►
now we're in we're in an industry now
00:25:34
◼
►
we're like you know we won like this we
00:25:37
◼
►
won the world like we don't have to
00:25:40
◼
►
worry about about about all those like
00:25:41
◼
►
emotional pressures anymore and you know
00:25:44
◼
►
in this industry and the way things work
00:25:46
◼
►
both in person and online you're not
00:25:49
◼
►
likely to get rejected if the worst that
00:25:53
◼
►
you can generally expect is to be
00:25:55
◼
►
ignored or to be lost in in the shuffle
00:25:58
◼
►
because there's just so much out there
00:26:00
◼
►
and that's you can't really if that
00:26:02
◼
►
happens and it will it happens to all of
00:26:04
◼
►
us you can't really take that personally
00:26:06
◼
►
because it's probably not for personal
00:26:09
◼
►
reasons like you know if if Apple
00:26:11
◼
►
doesn't pick you to be featured or if a
00:26:14
◼
►
website doesn't pick you to to write
00:26:16
◼
►
about or doesn't pick your app to review
00:26:17
◼
►
that week it might be because they
00:26:20
◼
►
didn't like it and they looked at it but
00:26:21
◼
►
it's probably not because of that it's
00:26:23
◼
►
probably because they got too much stuff
00:26:25
◼
►
and the order slipped through the cracks
00:26:27
◼
►
or they weren't or whatever yours did
00:26:29
◼
►
that's not that kind of thing they were
00:26:30
◼
►
looking for that week or you know
00:26:32
◼
►
there's so many other reasons that it is
00:26:34
◼
►
generally you know
00:26:36
◼
►
due to if if you if you do get ignored
00:26:39
◼
►
or passed over for something in this
00:26:41
◼
►
business that it's probably not personal
00:26:43
◼
►
it's probably not about your app your
00:26:45
◼
►
app might not even been looked at that's
00:26:46
◼
►
the reality of of getting rejected in
00:26:49
◼
►
this business today is that it's
00:26:51
◼
►
generally due to people being
00:26:52
◼
►
overwhelmed not due to anything personal
00:26:56
◼
►
against you and so the risk of putting
00:26:58
◼
►
yourself out there is is pretty low
00:27:00
◼
►
really and I think it's also that like
00:27:04
◼
►
one of the most impressive things is
00:27:07
◼
►
confidence and whether that is true
00:27:10
◼
►
confidence or kind of like more of a
00:27:12
◼
►
fake it till you make it kind of thing
00:27:14
◼
►
but the like that's something that I
00:27:19
◼
►
think Jen like universally people find
00:27:21
◼
►
impressive like coming back to high
00:27:23
◼
►
school or whatever like it's like the
00:27:24
◼
►
people because like the kids who were
00:27:25
◼
►
confident even if they're like comet
00:27:28
◼
►
like confidently strange are still cool
00:27:31
◼
►
like in in a way that is there is that
00:27:35
◼
►
is like that is the thing that we're
00:27:37
◼
►
sort of in in many ways and this is what
00:27:38
◼
►
I strived I'm sort of striving toward
00:27:40
◼
►
it's like being confident in what I make
00:27:43
◼
►
being confident in so sort of like the
00:27:45
◼
►
person I am and being able to be
00:27:48
◼
►
authentic about that then it is like
00:27:51
◼
►
that's something that's attractive
00:27:52
◼
►
that's something that is interesting and
00:27:54
◼
►
engaging and will start conversations
00:27:55
◼
►
and will open doors and those types of
00:27:58
◼
►
things I mean in some ways it's being
00:28:00
◼
►
hidden it's like even just having the
00:28:02
◼
►
confidence to ship in the first place is
00:28:04
◼
►
a huge thing to have accomplished and in
00:28:07
◼
►
marketing there's that same type of
00:28:09
◼
►
thing it's like that when I run into
00:28:10
◼
►
somebody and they ask me what apps they
00:28:12
◼
►
like in the OPI Co what apps do you say
00:28:14
◼
►
say oh what are you doing oh I'm a cap
00:28:15
◼
►
so have I ever have I heard of any it's
00:28:18
◼
►
like not being like oh probably not like
00:28:20
◼
►
the non confident responsive or it's
00:28:22
◼
►
like oh I make an app called pedometer
00:28:23
◼
►
plus plus it you know and yeah start
00:28:26
◼
►
with that don't even start with I make
00:28:28
◼
►
start with I make this particular ad
00:28:30
◼
►
here's what it is here's what's called
00:28:31
◼
►
here's what it does here's why you want
00:28:33
◼
►
it it's exactly and having that
00:28:34
◼
►
confidence that like this is something
00:28:35
◼
►
that they were going to be interested in
00:28:37
◼
►
and maybe they are maybe they won't but
00:28:39
◼
►
it's way better and it's gonna come
00:28:40
◼
►
across so much more appealing in a much
00:28:43
◼
►
more appealing way if you start with
00:28:45
◼
►
that confidence versus being like oh
00:28:47
◼
►
well you know I do stuff
00:28:49
◼
►
I kind of make stuff like that's not
00:28:51
◼
►
appealing that's not that you're not
00:28:52
◼
►
promoting yourself and you're doing your
00:28:54
◼
►
work a discredit as a result exactly all
00:28:58
◼
►
right that's all the time we have for
00:28:59
◼
►
this week everybody see is coming up
00:29:01
◼
►
really quickly now so we'll be talking
00:29:02
◼
►
about that probably more next week I
00:29:04
◼
►
would imagine everyone listening thank
00:29:06
◼
►
you for listening and I will see you at
00:29:08
◼
►
WTC wearing my own shirt nice I hope you
00:29:12
◼
►
do too all right
00:29:13
◼
►
see you next week all right bye