0:00:00welcome to under the radar our show but
0:00:02independent iOS app development I'm
0:00:04Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
0:00:06the radar is never longer than 30
0:00:08minutes so let's get started so today
0:00:11what I wanted to talk through is and the
0:00:14broader concepts but something that
0:00:16started from a sort of my initial
0:00:19planning for getting ready to go in a 10
0:00:20WWDC this year where one of the things
0:00:24that I was thinking about is the
0:00:26interactions that I tend to have at the
0:00:28can at the actual convention at the you
0:00:32know on the floor and something that has
0:00:33happened several times is I'll you know
0:00:35be walking around and I'll just randomly
0:00:37bump into somebody and start to you know
0:00:38chatting and it's like as we start
0:00:42talking eventually we get to a point
0:00:43that they're like oh wait you're the guy
0:00:46who did pedometer plus plus like I love
0:00:48that app or something like that where
0:00:49you have this interaction where it's
0:00:51like eventually they do sort of it did
0:00:53this there's this discovery of a comment
0:00:56and like a common ground it's almost an
0:00:57accident
0:00:58yeah it's and that accidental nature of
0:01:01it is the problem is the problem that I
0:01:03wanted to talk about today because what
0:01:05I've been thinking about is like well
0:01:08what most companies do when they're
0:01:10encounter this kind of a thing it's like
0:01:11if you walk around WTC you will see
0:01:14people wearing like 1password shirts and
0:01:16you know they work fragile bits or
0:01:18you'll see you know companies with omni
0:01:21shirts on or whatever and you'll know
0:01:23they work for Omni and so if you like on
0:01:25here and when we talk to someone who
0:01:26works there like you know how to go how
0:01:28to go about doing that but it feels
0:01:30weird in some ways at least initially it
0:01:33started feeling weird and I was like try
0:01:35and like make shirts that say you know
0:01:37it's like my apps and have like
0:01:39phenomena or plus plus or sleep plus
0:01:40plus or under the radar even or even
0:01:43just my name like put on it and it it's
0:01:47weird because it feels a bit like like
0:01:50like self-promotion in that way feels a
0:01:54bit odd and the more I've thought about
0:01:56this I need to probably not think about
0:01:59it in those ways but it seemed like an
0:02:00interesting topic to talk about because
0:02:02I struggle with this with this weird
0:02:04tension of it's like if I were if I was
0:02:06working for a bigger company and I was
0:02:08going to a convention
0:02:10that company said hey you know here's
0:02:12you know five t-shirts that have a
0:02:14various products on it would love it if
0:02:15you could wear them during the thing and
0:02:16you know see if that can you know start
0:02:18a conversation help a conversation along
0:02:20like I wouldn't feel weird about doing
0:02:23that it would be like yeah totally you
0:02:24know I'm a team player let's do this
0:02:26but when it's like me promoting myself
0:02:28it feels a bit weird and that tension is
0:02:32a strange thing I think in some ways
0:02:33it's unique to being an indie but I
0:02:36think a lot of people probably struggle
0:02:38with this type of thing when your brand
0:02:39is more personal rather than sort of
0:02:44more corporate yeah I mean this is I
0:02:47think a lot of this plays into what I
0:02:49think would probably be like the
0:02:51stereotypical geek personality that many
0:02:54people in our industry I think us
0:02:57included I have which is you know it's
0:03:01it's hard for people with this
0:03:02personality type to self-promote it's
0:03:05hard for them to like brag about
0:03:07themselves and promote promote their
0:03:10work a lot of times and this is
0:03:13something I had to just get over over
0:03:15the years honestly and I'm still not
0:03:16great at it but it's it's really hard
0:03:20for certain personality types to to be
0:03:23willing to do that and I think what it
0:03:26what helps to to distinguish here
0:03:28between like times you should and
0:03:30shouldn't do that or wet we know when or
0:03:33where you shouldn't shouldn't do that is
0:03:34to recognize that there are lots of
0:03:36situations in which you know like like
0:03:39walking around WTC tons of people there
0:03:42are wearing their own t-shirts like
0:03:45there that is if there's ever a time in
0:03:48place to wear your own t-shirt of the
0:03:50app you make or the company you work for
0:03:52it's at a conference full of other
0:03:55people doing the exact same thing like
0:03:58the the cost of you doing that the risk
0:04:00of you doing that is absolutely lowest
0:04:02they're at during that week and there's
0:04:06also you know situations like like if
0:04:09you are at a you know a tech meetup or
0:04:11you know it just any place where you're
0:04:13where you're know you're gonna be
0:04:13stranded by other software developers or
0:04:15other people in your in your business
0:04:18who are probably going to also be doing
0:04:20the same thing like that's totally fine
0:04:22and in fact
0:04:24not only are you like you know not only
0:04:25will will the world tolerate your
0:04:27self-promotion during that time but as
0:04:30you mentioned like for purposes like
0:04:31starting up conversations or trying to
0:04:33meet people who make the apps you like
0:04:35it's actually helpful you actually
0:04:37you're actually helping people find you
0:04:39who want to find you or who are
0:04:41interested in your in your app or or who
0:04:42know who you are or who want to know who
0:04:45you are so it's like you're actually
0:04:47helping help by by being self
0:04:49promotional in certain contexts such as
0:04:52those kind of you know real-life
0:04:53gatherings of similar types of people
0:04:55and that you know it's just one of those
0:04:57things where you just kind of have to
0:05:00you just kind of had to think of it from
0:05:03the other person's perspective of like
0:05:04if I wear a shirt that identifies me as
0:05:08the maker of this app or that or as the
0:05:11host of the show or whatever is the
0:05:14other person more likely to think I'm
0:05:16being like an arrogant jerk or more
0:05:18likely to recognize that from for people
0:05:23who want to who are who are who are
0:05:24interested in saying hi to me and and
0:05:27will and that'll make their job actually
0:05:29easier and they will appreciate that
0:05:30rather than trying to guess wait is that
0:05:32underscore there's just a line on a
0:05:35shirt but that could be an underscore or
0:05:36it could just be like a line because
0:05:39it's kind of hard to put your name on a
0:05:40shirt so I you know like there are so
0:05:44many contexts like that in which you're
0:05:46actually helping the other people by
0:05:48doing that yeah and it's it's an
0:05:51interesting thing too because I think
0:05:53about the tension your soul I can
0:05:55examine that there's a similar example
0:05:57that's also a bit of a tension is like
0:05:59the degree to which you talk about or
0:06:02like mentioned when people say nice
0:06:04things about your products right it's
0:06:08like similar in this way where if
0:06:09there's this strange tension around you
0:06:12notice it's like if someone writes a
0:06:14nice review of one of one of my apps do
0:06:16I like you know put that on Twitter put
0:06:18on my blog it's like that feels a little
0:06:20weird like retweeting when people say
0:06:22nice things about you like that's a
0:06:24little gauche I guess like it's not
0:06:26great but I think it what I've been
0:06:29trying to work through is why that feels
0:06:30weird versus what I'm increasingly
0:06:33coming to grips with about being fine
0:06:34with of the like it's good for people
0:06:37too
0:06:37know who you are and to know what you're
0:06:39associated with and like that's just
0:06:42building a brand versus being it's like
0:06:44what can you start to get to the
0:06:46question of what kind of brand do you
0:06:48want to be and that's I think the more
0:06:51interesting place to or like I need to
0:06:53get comfortable with like the first step
0:06:55like I am I am a brand like I have a
0:06:57following online I do things in a public
0:07:01in a public way like I make apps that
0:07:03are used by hundreds of thousands of
0:07:05people like that's an important thing
0:07:06and I need just be okay with that and
0:07:09it's like okay well what kind of brand
0:07:10do I want to be because even big
0:07:12companies have different brands that
0:07:13makes like they have different
0:07:16personalities to them like there's ones
0:07:18that are very kind of like a casual or
0:07:22very formal or very inviting and you
0:07:25know even down to the things like I'm
0:07:26thinking about like I'm working on that
0:07:28you know what what design should I have
0:07:29for like my shirt and it's like well
0:07:32it's probably gonna be kind of geeky
0:07:33like I'm going to make something that's
0:07:35a little bit that that's not just like a
0:07:38picture of an app icon like it's going
0:07:41to be a little bit silly and that
0:07:42probably speaks more to like the
0:07:45personality of my company in my own
0:07:46personality and I think that works but
0:07:49it's like an important thing that I
0:07:51really if it's kind of bad in some ways
0:07:53like I've been doing this for so long
0:07:55but I'm still have these like these
0:07:57basic elements of marketing that I'm
0:07:59just not really comfortable with or have
0:08:01really thought through I mean I think it
0:08:04really does have a lot to do with the
0:08:06context you know as I said earlier like
0:08:08you know there are some context in which
0:08:09people actually are being helped by by
0:08:12your marketing and you know - like your
0:08:15example of like do you retweet things
0:08:17that are complimentary in the context of
0:08:20people who follow you on twitter who are
0:08:22going to see this they don't need that
0:08:25that that is not really helping them to
0:08:26hear how awesome you are because they
0:08:28already follow you they already think
0:08:29you're awesome they don't need to see
0:08:30everyone else thinking you're awesome
0:08:32and you're retweeting that and it just
0:08:33makes you look arrogant but if you have
0:08:36a page for your product like a webpage
0:08:38or even like people who could use the
0:08:40description field on the app store for
0:08:41this purpose put-put
0:08:44endorsements they're like put positive
0:08:46reviews like the way people pull out
0:08:48call quotes like like you know people
0:08:50like people do a movie posters
0:08:51and you know put in the ellipses so
0:08:53everything sounds good you know I think
0:08:55like if if prominent people or
0:08:58publications or anybody really says
0:09:02something nice about you yet maybe don't
0:09:04retweet it but put it on your marketing
0:09:06page because in that kind of context
0:09:08that is not only appropriate but can be
0:09:11helpful to people who are visiting to
0:09:13kind of see like you know who else has
0:09:15vetted this app who you know is are
0:09:17there any big publications or names that
0:09:19I've heard of who've said nice things
0:09:21about this like that's actually useful
0:09:22information in that context so I think
0:09:26you know it's it's tempting to just step
0:09:29back and say well I I don't feel
0:09:31comfortable doing any of this so I'm
0:09:33just gonna let people find my stuff but
0:09:35people won't find your stuff like that's
0:09:37not how this works and that's that's
0:09:40kind of it's it's almost a naive view of
0:09:44like how how this world works now that
0:09:48it's very tempting to to think it's a
0:09:51very appealing notion to think that you
0:09:54know I can just put something good out
0:09:55there and it'll it'll get found people
0:09:58will find it and sometimes that does
0:10:01really happen but it really helps a lot
0:10:04if you can grease the wheels a little
0:10:05bit if you could get a lot more people
0:10:07to look at it first and the way you do
0:10:10that is is some kind of promotion some
0:10:13kind of telling people what you're about
0:10:15and I think the line that has to be
0:10:19drawn is figuring out when such
0:10:21promotion would be considered
0:10:23inappropriate and not doing it in those
0:10:25places but then finding the
0:10:27opportunities where it is appropriate or
0:10:29where it is even helpful and trying to
0:10:32focus your efforts there and that's that
0:10:34isn't always an easy line for a lot of
0:10:36people to find you know and certain
0:10:38certain products make an easier harder
0:10:40certain personality types make that
0:10:41easier or harder to it to figure out
0:10:42where that line is but there are places
0:10:45where it is totally appropriate to
0:10:47market yourself and to market your app
0:10:49and it isn't really if you think about
0:10:53it it isn't even really that hard to
0:10:55think about what those places might be
0:10:56you know obviously there's conferences
0:10:57and person things and I would say
0:10:59anywhere where like you're going to a
0:11:00meeting and everybody like passes out
0:11:02business cards that's not that's not
0:11:03what I'm talking about that's just
0:11:05waste of paper but that is actually a
0:11:08thing I've been wondering it's like
0:11:09should I have business cards like I've
0:11:11met business cards in years I I think in
0:11:13our business the answer of generally is
0:11:15no yeah but like this is every now and
0:11:17I'm like I wonder if I'll at some point
0:11:19I'll run into somebody who would be
0:11:21important to be able to for them to know
0:11:24like reach back out to me and it's like
0:11:26I have no I have nothing to give you is
0:11:28like I can write my name on your hand
0:11:30like that's all I've got like it's not
0:11:33it's not great but it's the same kind of
0:11:35thing because like there are
0:11:36opportunities like that like what you're
0:11:38just saying it's like having those
0:11:39contexts where it's completely
0:11:40appropriate to interact in a marketing
0:11:43way and say like it's like I'm this
0:11:45person here's my app and I have
0:11:47something to hand to them like it's if
0:11:49you went to a trade show and had a booth
0:11:51like you'll have things to hand out to
0:11:53people because it's a context rupee if
0:11:55someone wants to receive that you want
0:11:56to be able to give it to them right
0:11:57exactly and that's like there are so
0:12:00many contexts like that in which your
0:12:02self-promotion is welcome or helpful and
0:12:05so for instance we talked in the past
0:12:07about about pitching the press on your
0:12:09app this is a great example of this kind
0:12:11of thing where you know a web site that
0:12:13posts links to things and reviews things
0:12:15every day like daring fireball or Mac
0:12:17stories or I'm or these sites need
0:12:20things to post every day you're not
0:12:22putting them out by suggesting hey might
0:12:25want me and maybe check this out that I
0:12:26just made it it solves this problem like
0:12:28that you're not like you know I mean you
0:12:31can be you can do it badly in a way this
0:12:33seems spamming but if you just do it
0:12:35like a human in a respectful way it
0:12:38tends to be welcomed and that isn't to
0:12:41say that they are guaranteed to to link
0:12:43to you to cover you to give you a
0:12:44positive review but you have to at least
0:12:46do the first step of like letting people
0:12:48know about your app because sites like
0:12:51that need things to post every day so by
0:12:54you promoting your app to them you are
0:12:56not annoying them you are helping them
0:12:59do their job like that so and so find
0:13:02places we're hearing about your app will
0:13:06help people do a job in a way that is
0:13:09not spammy or annoying yeah so like for
0:13:11me like you know blind the email blasts
0:13:14when people blast email all over me I
0:13:16don't I don't appreciate that very much
0:13:18and one of the main reasons is because
0:13:20like the the lists that people tend to I
0:13:24assume by often include bad addresses
0:13:28things like overcast support a dress a
0:13:31hat like that's not an appropriate place
0:13:33to send promotional stuff about your
0:13:35service to make developers lives easier
0:13:36but you know if like people run websites
0:13:40that review apps and there's no there's
0:13:43a contact form there or there's an email
0:13:45address there for like hey hey send your
0:13:47you know PR inquiries or whatever here
0:13:49like that is the appropriate place that
0:13:51they're asking you to do that there so
0:13:52find places like that and and use that
0:13:55to your advantage because honestly in
0:13:58this business you have to be some degree
0:14:01of self promotional because there's so
0:14:03much out there there's so many other
0:14:04apps there's so many other services
0:14:06there's so many other consultants no
0:14:08matter what you're doing in the in the
0:14:10mobile app development business it's
0:14:12crowded these days and you have to stand
0:14:15out somehow there are so many people out
0:14:18there who don't do any reasonable amount
0:14:20of self-promotion who can't do it right
0:14:22or who don't do it right if you can just
0:14:25do that correctly at all you don't even
0:14:27have to be great it just just be ok at
0:14:29it and that will put you in like the top
0:14:315% of pretty much everybody else out
0:14:33there doing the exact same thing as you
0:14:35so that helps a lot and I would even
0:14:37argue that if you're the kind of person
0:14:40who who is just really having a hard
0:14:42time with self-promotion and who really
0:14:44can't do it I would argue that you're
0:14:47probably better off working for a
0:14:49company than working on your own because
0:14:51it's such an important part of working
0:14:53on your own that if you can't do it
0:14:55someone else should be doing it for you
0:14:57yeah and I think that's a great part
0:14:59like aspect that I need always need to
0:15:01remind myself about where just because
0:15:04like I got into this business to write
0:15:06software like to sit open Xcode and work
0:15:09in there and just because that's what
0:15:11I'm good at and just because that's what
0:15:13I like like doing most doesn't somehow
0:15:16mean that the other aspects of running a
0:15:19software business like go away that like
0:15:21they're not going to like somehow like
0:15:23oh well that's what I do so I'm just
0:15:25going to do that it's like no there are
0:15:26many aspects to running a business that
0:15:28I have to do and like some of them I can
0:15:31outsource
0:15:32like I have an accountant who files my
0:15:34taxes for me because that's in a very
0:15:36vital important part of my business but
0:15:38it's something that I really don't want
0:15:40to do that's something that she is way
0:15:42better at doing than I am so I have her
0:15:45have someone do that and so when I think
0:15:47about something like marketing which is
0:15:48a which is really but all of this is
0:15:50like this is promotion and publicity and
0:15:51marketing like it there are it's a
0:15:53division within a bigger company it's
0:15:56even if it's not something that I want
0:15:57to do or feel qualified or skilled at
0:16:00doing it's still something that's
0:16:01important for me to get you know develop
0:16:04that skill get better at etc because
0:16:07it's not gonna if it doesn't happen it's
0:16:09not like that's fine it's problematic
0:16:11for my business and in in a big way -
0:16:14its key of having the mindset after that
0:16:16if I don't do this then all the work I'm
0:16:18doing in Xcode is in many ways kind of
0:16:22diminished because fewer people are
0:16:25going to benefit from it you know fewer
0:16:26people are going to see the products I
0:16:27make and that's like I'm sort of like
0:16:30shooting myself in the foot and so it's
0:16:32like it has to be done and so it's like
0:16:35yeah it's these thing weird things are
0:16:36having to relieve think about how can I
0:16:38get better at this like how can I find
0:16:40be ok with and like under you know with
0:16:44marketing myself what are things that I
0:16:45should be doing that I don't you know
0:16:47like a lot of my apps don't have good
0:16:48really great websites or social media
0:16:52presences or things like there are
0:16:54aspects of them that I think about that
0:16:55I'm like should I be doing more in that
0:16:57should I not like does it matter
0:16:59and maybe in our business like
0:17:00specifically in the app store I don't
0:17:02know the degree to which you having a
0:17:04good website matters but it's definitely
0:17:07something that I know I have to keep
0:17:09reminding myself because my default is
0:17:11never gonna be oh like focus ton on
0:17:14marketing because that's not what I'm
0:17:16like good at or skill that and got into
0:17:18this business to do in the first place
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0:19:37know you can get things fixed quickly I
0:19:39I just I cannot recommend Pingdom enough
0:19:42because here's what you don't want to
0:19:44happen you don't want for you know for
0:19:47you to be out all day and then you
0:19:49launch your Twitter app and then you see
0:19:52that six hours ago people on Twitter
0:19:54started telling you hey your site's down
0:19:56hey your site's down hey your site's to
0:19:58you that's that's
0:20:00not good that's not good for your
0:20:02reputation it's not good for possibly
0:20:04your income if your site is what
0:20:06generates your money it certainly does
0:20:08not look very professional if you have
0:20:10to wait until people on Twitter tell
0:20:11your site is down before you realize
0:20:13it's down with Pingdom you are the first
0:20:15to know it can check your site as often
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0:20:19can send push notifications it can send
0:20:21emails it can do all those things or
0:20:23some of those things none of those
0:20:24things or some of those things
0:20:25conditionally based on how severe it is
0:20:27it is so great I again I've been using
0:20:30it since 2007 strongly recommend it
0:20:32check it out go to Pingdom calm for a
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0:20:41all right so I think it's interesting to
0:20:45to consider you know all these these
0:20:47marketing angles and everything as you
0:20:50know what's appropriate and what's not
0:20:53obviously we can talk about this
0:20:54academically and and it seems like I
0:20:58have a slightly easier time than you do
0:21:00or at least I
0:21:01I started earlier the path towards self
0:21:03promotion so you know at as you as you
0:21:08know all the same things I do you know
0:21:09as you can think about the same things
0:21:11rationally what are the irrational
0:21:13pressures or fears or conflicts that you
0:21:17feel about this that other people might
0:21:19relate to that you know and and can you
0:21:23talk about maybe like just like the
0:21:25feeling side of this like once you know
0:21:27what you should be doing what still
0:21:29stops you from doing it and what might
0:21:31be a way that you could overcome that
0:21:32yeah the one that comes to mind the most
0:21:35and I think this is it's like at the
0:21:38core of so much of these challenges is
0:21:41that feeling of
0:21:42it's like putting yourself out there
0:21:45where I mean I still do every time I
0:21:48write up an email to the press I always
0:21:52have this feeling of like I can be so
0:21:54proud of my app and what it does and how
0:21:57well it works
0:21:58and I'm sitting down to write this to
0:22:00somebody and I get nervous and worried
0:22:03and like what if they don't like it what
0:22:05if they hate it what if they are gonna
0:22:07you know reject me or be mean to me or
0:22:10whatever like you can give these various
0:22:12like you know sort of visceral feelings
0:22:13about
0:22:14that and I think around marketing and a
0:22:16lot of these kind of like self
0:22:17promotional things there is certainly an
0:22:19element of that of this whenever anytime
0:22:21that you are sort of really sort of
0:22:24putting out your name in a way in a
0:22:26public obvious way intentionally drawing
0:22:29attention to yourself it's like you're
0:22:31also setting yourself up for the
0:22:32possibility of someone not liking you
0:22:35and I think the thing that you have to
0:22:39at certain point come to grips with is a
0:22:42like there's always going to be people
0:22:44who don't like you like no matter how
0:22:45likeable you are there's always going to
0:22:47be that and there's a certain amount of
0:22:49just like you have to get Bo be okay
0:22:51with that and not like get your you know
0:22:53your value from other people like you
0:22:55have to you know if I look at something
0:22:57I make and I think it's good then that
0:22:59at a certain point has to be enough that
0:23:01it is a can't it doesn't have to just be
0:23:03validated externally and but then it's
0:23:07also just V being and being aware that
0:23:09that's probably also not what's gonna
0:23:11happen like the number of times I've had
0:23:13the negative version of that you are
0:23:16like I can remember them because that's
0:23:19just the way human nature is that we
0:23:20think like the impact of the negative is
0:23:23what is disproportionate the impact are
0:23:25the positive you know hundred people can
0:23:27say a nice thing and one person can say
0:23:28a mean thing and you remember that mean
0:23:30thing but overall like that's not my
0:23:34experience and it's but it's having to
0:23:37overcome the emotional part of that of
0:23:40that feeling of just like that
0:23:41nervousness and the shyness I mean and
0:23:43it's the same thing that happens in in
0:23:46life like I remember we talked about
0:23:49this a couple weeks ago with going to
0:23:50tap YouTube EDC and looks like it's that
0:23:52same feeling of when I'd see someone
0:23:55that I'd recognize it's like oh should I
0:23:57go say hi like I'd love to meet them but
0:24:00being nervous about that and being
0:24:01nervous how the conversation will go and
0:24:02all these types of things when in
0:24:04reality it goes fine like that's just
0:24:07not the that's just not the reality like
0:24:10people are generally very polite and
0:24:12very nice and it'll go well but that
0:24:15certainly is a like a genuine feeling to
0:24:17overcome of that feeling of like is this
0:24:19good enough is it going to go well
0:24:22and so anytime you're drawing attention
0:24:23to yourself like that's just part of the
0:24:26bio that's just part of it but there's
0:24:27definitely that like kind of irrational
0:24:29feeling of like oh no like what if what
0:24:31if people don't like me oh sure I mean
0:24:33and and there's not I mean that's that's
0:24:36hard for like you know III would expect
0:24:38a lot of people who like computers who
0:24:42were roughly our age probably had a
0:24:44rough time socially in school growing up
0:24:46I sure did and it's and a lot of those
0:24:49pressures like come right back to life
0:24:50feeling like you're in high school again
0:24:52or middle school again and like getting
0:24:54socially rejected or romantically
0:24:55rejected and and there's like these
0:24:57deep-rooted scars that so many of us
0:24:59have from from growing up in that kind
0:25:01of situation and so it's really hard to
0:25:04overcome that feeling but the good thing
0:25:05is as you mentioned like you know people
0:25:07are generally nice and polite because
0:25:10you know what we aren't in high school
0:25:11anymore like everyone around us now as
0:25:14like as an adult and usually they're a
0:25:16lot like us similar back and so it's the
0:25:22the chances of like getting really
0:25:24scarred and and and rejected in the ways
0:25:27that we're all like consciously or
0:25:29subconsciously afraid of I think are
0:25:31pretty low you know we're we're adults
0:25:33now we're in we're in an industry now
0:25:34we're like you know we won like this we
0:25:37won the world like we don't have to
0:25:40worry about about about all those like
0:25:41emotional pressures anymore and you know
0:25:44in this industry and the way things work
0:25:46both in person and online you're not
0:25:49likely to get rejected if the worst that
0:25:53you can generally expect is to be
0:25:55ignored or to be lost in in the shuffle
0:25:58because there's just so much out there
0:26:00and that's you can't really if that
0:26:02happens and it will it happens to all of
0:26:04us you can't really take that personally
0:26:06because it's probably not for personal
0:26:09reasons like you know if if Apple
0:26:11doesn't pick you to be featured or if a
0:26:14website doesn't pick you to to write
0:26:16about or doesn't pick your app to review
0:26:17that week it might be because they
0:26:20didn't like it and they looked at it but
0:26:21it's probably not because of that it's
0:26:23probably because they got too much stuff
0:26:25and the order slipped through the cracks
0:26:27or they weren't or whatever yours did
0:26:29that's not that kind of thing they were
0:26:30looking for that week or you know
0:26:32there's so many other reasons that it is
0:26:34generally you know
0:26:36due to if if you if you do get ignored
0:26:39or passed over for something in this
0:26:41business that it's probably not personal
0:26:43it's probably not about your app your
0:26:45app might not even been looked at that's
0:26:46the reality of of getting rejected in
0:26:49this business today is that it's
0:26:51generally due to people being
0:26:52overwhelmed not due to anything personal
0:26:56against you and so the risk of putting
0:26:58yourself out there is is pretty low
0:27:00really and I think it's also that like
0:27:04one of the most impressive things is
0:27:07confidence and whether that is true
0:27:10confidence or kind of like more of a
0:27:12fake it till you make it kind of thing
0:27:14but the like that's something that I
0:27:19think Jen like universally people find
0:27:21impressive like coming back to high
0:27:23school or whatever like it's like the
0:27:24people because like the kids who were
0:27:25confident even if they're like comet
0:27:28like confidently strange are still cool
0:27:31like in in a way that is there is that
0:27:35is like that is the thing that we're
0:27:37sort of in in many ways and this is what
0:27:38I strived I'm sort of striving toward
0:27:40it's like being confident in what I make
0:27:43being confident in so sort of like the
0:27:45person I am and being able to be
0:27:48authentic about that then it is like
0:27:51that's something that's attractive
0:27:52that's something that is interesting and
0:27:54engaging and will start conversations
0:27:55and will open doors and those types of
0:27:58things I mean in some ways it's being
0:28:00hidden it's like even just having the
0:28:02confidence to ship in the first place is
0:28:04a huge thing to have accomplished and in
0:28:07marketing there's that same type of
0:28:09thing it's like that when I run into
0:28:10somebody and they ask me what apps they
0:28:12like in the OPI Co what apps do you say
0:28:14say oh what are you doing oh I'm a cap
0:28:15so have I ever have I heard of any it's
0:28:18like not being like oh probably not like
0:28:20the non confident responsive or it's
0:28:22like oh I make an app called pedometer
0:28:23plus plus it you know and yeah start
0:28:26with that don't even start with I make
0:28:27apps
0:28:28start with I make this particular ad
0:28:30here's what it is here's what's called
0:28:31here's what it does here's why you want
0:28:33it it's exactly and having that
0:28:34confidence that like this is something
0:28:35that they were going to be interested in
0:28:37and maybe they are maybe they won't but
0:28:39it's way better and it's gonna come
0:28:40across so much more appealing in a much
0:28:43more appealing way if you start with
0:28:45that confidence versus being like oh
0:28:47well you know I do stuff
0:28:49I kind of make stuff like that's not
0:28:51appealing that's not that you're not
0:28:52promoting yourself and you're doing your
0:28:54work a discredit as a result exactly all
0:28:58right that's all the time we have for
0:28:59this week everybody see is coming up
0:29:01really quickly now so we'll be talking
0:29:02about that probably more next week I
0:29:04would imagine everyone listening thank
0:29:06you for listening and I will see you at
0:29:08WTC wearing my own shirt nice I hope you
0:29:12do too all right
0:29:13see you next week all right bye