Under the Radar 19: Improving the App Store, Part 1
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welcome to under the radar a show about
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independent iOS app development I'm
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Marco Arment
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and I'm David Smith under the radar is
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never longer than 30 minutes so let's
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get started so today we're going to
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unpack some of the things that we think
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might make the App Store better and if
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you were a listener to developing
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perspective the show I did before this
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one you might know that I look about a
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year ago I did a long long series
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actually two years ago I did a long
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series about things that I thought could
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make the App Store better and we both
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kind of make it make our livings inside
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of the App Store and so as you would
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imagine we have a lot of concerns
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thoughts goals like things we'd like we
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think about in the abstract because it's
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a place we spend a lot of time both as a
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customer but also as a as a producer
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it's easy I think for us to look at the
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App Store and to just kind of like whine
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about it to look at and say oh I wish I
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did this I wish you did that like we all
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have some kind of like pet things that
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we think might make it better for
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whatever that you know better might mean
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to us but it's challenging it's
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difficult for unless perhaps to take the
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sort of like the step back and say you
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know the App Store is the way it is you
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know and whining about that isn't going
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to change it we can look at it we can
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learn from it and it's like our job as a
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developers is to understand how we can
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make a living inside of sort of it as as
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it exists and hope that Apple is doing
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things on their end to make it better
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but from the outside it seems like you
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know sometimes when I think of have the
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office or too much I start to get sad
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and I go and like I'm trying to be a
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good student of the App Store and
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understand like what's being successful
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what's working you know go to the
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top-grossing list which isn't
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necessarily the most constructive place
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because that's not really the kind of
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apps I'm making you know but I go there
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and I look at like them but the top mode
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the top grossing app we're at right now
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as a recording is clash Royale and I go
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to its IEP list and it's like what would
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you like to buy a fistful of gems a
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pouch of gems a bucket of gems a barrel
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of gem the mountain of gems or a
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wagonload of gems is that really what I
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thought you were Joe
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that is that is the list of the top
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in-app purchases in the top-grossing
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half right now and it's kind of sad too
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when I think about like I go to W
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you see every year and almost always
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they'll have like Apple will have a big
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slide that talks about how much money
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they've paid out to developers
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last year it was something like 14
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billion dollars or something and rather
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than that being like exciting and
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encouraging and being like yeah let's
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you know let's let's do this guy's it
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just kind of makes me sad because I look
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at that number and I just think well I
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guess that's a lot of wagons full of
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gems just not great yeah I mean look
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that that number you know outside of any
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information on the distribution of those
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stats like you know the median might be
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a little more interesting although
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honestly it we probably be pretty sad to
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just in the opposite direction but yeah
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I mean like when you have these these
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mega hit games that are bringing in
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hundreds of thousands of dollars a day
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or more that that's that's roughly what
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we're talking about here it's you could
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be bringing in millions of dollars a day
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from our perspective it's it's it's
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really easy to look at that and be like
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wow why am I even in the App Store if
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that's what succeeds but that's you know
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that's not a very productive way to look
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at it or encourage me to look at it I
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think a better way to look at it is we
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aren't even playing the same game as
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these people and the what we need to be
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concerned about is is there a game that
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we can play here like is there a spot
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for us in the App Store where we can
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succeed I think you know there's enough
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apps by smaller shops that aren't
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abusive games like this if there's
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enough apps that do succeed that the
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answer to that is is almost certainly
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yes there is a spot but that doesn't
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mean necessarily that it's easy to get
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into one of those spots although it
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might not necessarily need to be easy
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but that also doesn't mean that Apple's
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you know doing everything they can to
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make sure the rest of the store is
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healthy besides just that top grocery
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list and there's lots of areas I think
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for potential improvement that we're
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gonna talk about yeah and I think it's
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one thing everything that motivated I
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think this discussion I wanted to sort
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of talk about it now is that if the
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first time in a long time I feel like
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there's outward signs that the App Store
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is going to be changing this year and
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most significant of which is Phil
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Schiller is now taking responsibility
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for it which I mean I think Phil is
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awesome and that's really encouraging to
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me but even just the simple fact of
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there's a change in leadership there
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a change in responsibility like in my
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mind can only be better be good and I
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think I'm encouraged that even Phil is
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kind of publicly in a few random sort of
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tweets or things when people are
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bringing to his attention like there's
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weird issues in the AppStore like a
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private link in the show notes to a
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tweet someone sent to him showing a sort
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of like a featured area in the App Store
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for the puzzle games and it's just full
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chock-full of the 2048 clones and you
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kind of have the ne his response to that
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it's like that shouldn't happen we'll
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look into it
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thank you and the fact that he's that
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kind of thing is even happening at any
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level makes me encourage and so I think
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we wanted to do for the rest of the
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episode is to kind of think through what
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are some things that we would like to
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see done you know like we were if we
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were sitting down in a room with Phil
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and he was like you know as independent
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developers what could I do to make the
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App Store better for you like what would
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that be and think through what what that
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would actually be and things that we
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could think about that would make you
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know the App Store an objectively better
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place both as a customer or as a you
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relay event all right I think that one
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of the biggest things I'd like to see I
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just want to see signs of motion signs
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that Apple believes that this isn't as
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good as it could be and is willing to
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take the steps to prioritize real change
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and experimentation and improvement in
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the App Store because the App Store is
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now just under 8 years old for being
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almost 8 it really has not changed very
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much from the way it was launched there
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have been small improvements here and
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there but almost unchanged the entire
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industry Apple included have we learned
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nothing since it started you know
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obviously we've learned something so I
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think it's it's upon Apple 2 to just
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show that like they're willing to make
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changes over time as we learn what works
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what doesn't what's healthy what's not
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and so far we've seen very little of
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that so that's what I my number-one hope
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is not any any one particular change but
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just I really hope that Apple just shows
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signs of not being complacent not
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thinking that what they have now is the
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inevitable end and as good as it can get
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I agree yeah and I think seeing and I
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said nej in some ways it's any change
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like there are certainly things that
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like pet things that I would like and
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we'll certainly talk about but just
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having a sense that the App Store is
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going somewhere and that I could explain
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if I if I look towards might like my own
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personal future of like should this be
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the place that I'm making my living if
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it seems like it's going getting worse
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and worse or at least you know sort of
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has plateaued at a not great level like
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that's not an encouraging thing to look
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forward to and to seek to kind of invest
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in two versus something that seems like
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even if it's just a slow incremental
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process of getting better and better
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that would be great that would be
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encouraging like that would be in
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motivating and something that would be
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work you know make it feel more
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worthwhile to put all the you know sort
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of all the time and attention that I'm
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putting into the App Store currently
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yeah I mean that's because like I feel
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like where it is now is not in a very
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encouraging place for people like us
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you know right now like we can get by
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but it's hard and there's not a lot of
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headroom it doesn't feel like it's it's
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on its way up anymore it feels like it's
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on its way down but at least for people
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like us you know and it feels like we
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have fewer and fewer options over time
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of like how to make a decent living in
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the App Store
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a lot of this is just market forces at
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work here a lot of this is not within
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Apple's control to change by far the
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biggest problem in the App Store for for
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you know Indies to get by is just that
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there's a massive amount of relentless
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competition not only for exactly the
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same things that your apps do like you
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know I really support cast app there's
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already a whole bunch of podcast apps
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out there so that's problem number one
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problem number two anything I do in mine
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that that will be different or
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noteworthy other people will be able to
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you know nothing I'm not like I don't
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have any kind of magical abilities that
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nobody else can duplicate you know it
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anybody can do the same things I do and
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if you have an app that is popular at
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all that will happen because number
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three there are absolutely to Hans of
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developers out there they all are trying
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to make the same living out of the same
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pie and the pie is growing but so is
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that pool developers and then finally
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number four there are lots of other
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things competing for everyone's
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attention all the time on their phones
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as well so even if your app does pretty
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well against other similar apps you're
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also competing with literally everything
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else they have available on their phone
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which is everything in the consumer web
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world right now basically he's so like
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you're competing with those top grossing
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games or like instead of listening to a
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podcast they could choose to go play a
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clash or whatever you know so you you
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are competing with all of those things
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because this this is the hot place to be
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the the level of competition is just
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and ruthless yeah I mean I think I would
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sir like before the show I went and took
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a look at just trying to put quantify
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just how big the AppStore is and how
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much it's continuing to even grow and
00:11:19
◼
►
honestly at the end of looking at all
00:11:21
◼
►
this I just had tremendous sympathy for
00:11:22
◼
►
the poor app reviewers because right now
00:11:24
◼
►
in the App Store I think they're defined
00:11:27
◼
►
a couple of conflicting numbers but the
00:11:28
◼
►
number is somewhere in the ballpark of
00:11:29
◼
►
around 2 million apps and it seems like
00:11:32
◼
►
there's they're being added to the store
00:11:34
◼
►
at roughly two thousand a day seems to
00:11:38
◼
►
be the best number I could get kind of
00:11:40
◼
►
looking around which means that during
00:11:41
◼
►
this show like during 30 minutes of this
00:11:43
◼
►
show something like 42 apps will have
00:11:45
◼
►
launched and that's just new app that's
00:11:48
◼
►
it doesn't let even updates like the
00:11:50
◼
►
poor people in app review I don't even
00:11:51
◼
►
know how that's like how to conceive of
00:11:54
◼
►
the workload that those poor people must
00:11:56
◼
►
have even you can't release apps that
00:11:58
◼
►
quickly even me I mean I'm famous for
00:12:00
◼
►
having lots of haves and I look at this
00:12:02
◼
►
and it's like how like the first thing
00:12:04
◼
►
that I think of that Apple needs to work
00:12:06
◼
►
on is understanding if they're going to
00:12:08
◼
►
do something about that early on in the
00:12:10
◼
►
App Store they used to always get up on
00:12:12
◼
►
stage and talk about they'd be you know
00:12:13
◼
►
we now we have a hundred thousand apps
00:12:15
◼
►
now we have five hundred thousand apps
00:12:17
◼
►
we have a million apps like as though
00:12:18
◼
►
having a big number were something
00:12:21
◼
►
desirous and in the early stages maybe
00:12:24
◼
►
it was to say like you know they really
00:12:26
◼
►
when they were first building out the
00:12:27
◼
►
App Store it was an important thing to
00:12:28
◼
►
have lots of apps and to cover all the
00:12:30
◼
►
different goals and things that people
00:12:32
◼
►
might want to do on their phones but my
00:12:34
◼
►
suspicion is at this point that all
00:12:36
◼
►
those say 2,000 new apps every day I
00:12:38
◼
►
can't imagine all of them or at least
00:12:41
◼
►
even the majority of them are really
00:12:43
◼
►
adding to the platform and making it
00:12:45
◼
►
better and stronger and puts a
00:12:47
◼
►
tremendous load I'm sure on the app
00:12:49
◼
►
review team and so it means that like
00:12:50
◼
►
you and I when we submit a bug fix
00:12:52
◼
►
updates say like you know we have
00:12:53
◼
►
something some problem in our half we
00:12:54
◼
►
submit it we have to wait at least a
00:12:56
◼
►
week to get it reviewed and out into the
00:12:58
◼
►
store and I can't imagine so I don't
00:13:00
◼
►
imagine some of that is coming from just
00:13:02
◼
►
the sheer volume of junk and like that's
00:13:05
◼
►
say 2000 is the right number it's like
00:13:07
◼
►
2008 apps are being new maps are being
00:13:09
◼
►
approved like how many what's the number
00:13:11
◼
►
of apps that are getting rejected it's
00:13:14
◼
►
just got it like there's got to be
00:13:16
◼
►
things that Apple can do on that end and
00:13:17
◼
►
I don't know if it's changing the review
00:13:19
◼
►
guidelines making it so that there's
00:13:21
◼
►
some kind of extra barriers to actually
00:13:24
◼
►
submitting apps to try and make it you
00:13:25
◼
►
know or being just sort of harsher
00:13:28
◼
►
in-app review and having higher
00:13:30
◼
►
standards understood from more editorial
00:13:33
◼
►
opinionated side to make it so that
00:13:35
◼
►
people get the answer so very quickly
00:13:38
◼
►
you would expect that if the process of
00:13:41
◼
►
just sort of putting sort of knock or
00:13:43
◼
►
not high-level apps into the App Store
00:13:45
◼
►
became unsuccessful after a while people
00:13:47
◼
►
would stop doing that it would be a
00:13:49
◼
►
waste of time and not really worth the
00:13:50
◼
►
effort or something but if that's so
00:13:53
◼
►
risky though like any anything they do
00:13:55
◼
►
to try to make subjective judgments I
00:13:57
◼
►
feel like is is just asking for trouble
00:14:00
◼
►
because I mean they already have a lot
00:14:01
◼
►
of these things now and they do often
00:14:02
◼
►
get crap for making a bad decision
00:14:04
◼
►
usually usually warranted anything they
00:14:07
◼
►
do to try to sell like okay well now
00:14:08
◼
►
your app doesn't have to just follow
00:14:10
◼
►
these rules it also has to be like
00:14:12
◼
►
worthy a little bit to some degree even
00:14:14
◼
►
if it's just a minor degree this has to
00:14:16
◼
►
be like worthy of being included in the
00:14:18
◼
►
store it has to have value to somebody
00:14:20
◼
►
and they already define that minimum
00:14:22
◼
►
functionality rule which is you know
00:14:24
◼
►
vague and that just refers to a level of
00:14:26
◼
►
functionality what if there was also a
00:14:27
◼
►
level of minimum quality again that
00:14:30
◼
►
there have been rules that are kind of
00:14:31
◼
►
eluded this and the guidelines since the
00:14:32
◼
►
beginning but they haven't really been
00:14:34
◼
►
enforced very much the problem though is
00:14:36
◼
►
that this isn't just like Phil Schiller
00:14:38
◼
►
making those decisions this is probably
00:14:40
◼
►
hundreds of employees in a preview
00:14:43
◼
►
whoo-hoo all have to be making the
00:14:45
◼
►
decisions constantly they're not gonna
00:14:47
◼
►
be able to kick every one of them up to
00:14:48
◼
►
a manager for approval so you're gonna
00:14:50
◼
►
have to have to come up with rules that
00:14:53
◼
►
can be consistently enforced with a with
00:14:56
◼
►
a large staff the more room for
00:14:57
◼
►
subjectivity there is the harder it is
00:15:00
◼
►
to achieve consistency and they already
00:15:03
◼
►
have issues with this anything they do
00:15:05
◼
►
to make the rules to basically raise the
00:15:07
◼
►
bar of their minimum quality standards
00:15:08
◼
►
they're gonna get so many more
00:15:11
◼
►
problematic rejections
00:15:12
◼
►
so much more bad press about problematic
00:15:14
◼
►
rejections and they're gonna have people
00:15:16
◼
►
like us complaining so it's it's a hard
00:15:18
◼
►
balance to strike I don't think they've
00:15:20
◼
►
struck the right balance yet you know
00:15:22
◼
►
certainly raising the bar is is
00:15:25
◼
►
oh sure yeah I mean and I look at that
00:15:26
◼
►
and it's like I don't and no Envy how
00:15:29
◼
►
they would make the decision but it
00:15:30
◼
►
seems like it's either you have to
00:15:32
◼
►
take the approach of like the Google
00:15:34
◼
►
Playstore like the bar is like is this
00:15:37
◼
►
basically functional and not malware
00:15:39
◼
►
kind of at least conceptually I mean I'm
00:15:41
◼
►
not a Google Play expert but the app
00:15:43
◼
►
review process there is much more
00:15:45
◼
►
streamlined and straightforward as it
00:15:46
◼
►
says best I understand it where you have
00:15:48
◼
►
very lowest low bars and you know you
00:15:51
◼
►
approach the sort of problem almost more
00:15:53
◼
►
on the like on the demand side rather
00:15:56
◼
►
than the supply side like you just let
00:15:57
◼
►
anybody who wants to have an app be in
00:15:59
◼
►
the store if you do that you just need
00:16:01
◼
►
to build the store itself like the
00:16:03
◼
►
front-end into that such that users can
00:16:06
◼
►
very easily and quickly get away from
00:16:08
◼
►
things that aren't great and only and
00:16:11
◼
►
are driven towards things that are good
00:16:12
◼
►
because I think you could probably say
00:16:14
◼
►
like the best the ultimate goal of the
00:16:15
◼
►
app store like if you had to try and
00:16:18
◼
►
boil it down is that any time a customer
00:16:20
◼
►
downloads an app they're getting a good
00:16:23
◼
►
experience like that would be seeing a
00:16:25
◼
►
reasonable goal for what the app store
00:16:26
◼
►
is trying to do that a user says I have
00:16:29
◼
►
a need or I want to be amused or
00:16:31
◼
►
entertained or whatever it is and they
00:16:33
◼
►
go to the App Store now the things that
00:16:35
◼
►
they find there are going to give them a
00:16:38
◼
►
positive experience and you know there's
00:16:41
◼
►
a lot of things that the Apple could do
00:16:42
◼
►
for maybe on the editorial side to
00:16:44
◼
►
dramatically you know improve that
00:16:46
◼
►
structure where right now you know of
00:16:48
◼
►
the in the App Store app like there's
00:16:50
◼
►
the featured area the top charts area
00:16:53
◼
►
and the explore area the featured area
00:16:55
◼
►
they certainly I think they do a pretty
00:16:57
◼
►
good job like there are very rarely
00:16:58
◼
►
things in that first tab of the App
00:17:00
◼
►
Store that I look at and I see and that
00:17:02
◼
►
I'm like if someone downloaded that that
00:17:04
◼
►
they're gonna have a bad experience if
00:17:06
◼
►
the in the top charts area it's starts
00:17:10
◼
►
to get a lot more questionable and
00:17:11
◼
►
there's a little bit of like cell
00:17:12
◼
►
filtering of that that obviously people
00:17:14
◼
►
in order to get beyond one of those
00:17:16
◼
►
lists lots of people had to have they
00:17:18
◼
►
thought that your app was good but it
00:17:20
◼
►
starts to get more questionable and then
00:17:22
◼
►
you get into the Explorer tab like that
00:17:23
◼
►
poor third tab in the App Store app
00:17:25
◼
►
which has been three or four different
00:17:27
◼
►
things over the last eight years and
00:17:29
◼
►
just feels like it's always turning over
00:17:31
◼
►
and it never quite finds its way but you
00:17:33
◼
►
know like that's the place that you will
00:17:35
◼
►
start to very quickly kind of get into
00:17:37
◼
►
areas where it's the quality or at least
00:17:40
◼
►
the the robustness of those apps or it
00:17:43
◼
►
becomes more and more problematic as you
00:17:46
◼
►
maybe if apical can't fix it on there
00:17:48
◼
►
like on the review side maybe it's just
00:17:50
◼
►
let's just focus on editorial its staff
00:17:52
◼
►
up dramatically really go through the
00:17:55
◼
►
app store and it's like if we think
00:17:56
◼
►
these apps aren't good like we're you
00:17:58
◼
►
know maybe it's like we just flag them
00:17:59
◼
►
as such and we say like you know this is
00:18:01
◼
►
a bee app and it's not going to show up
00:18:02
◼
►
into certain places or it's going to be
00:18:04
◼
►
very be prioritized and the way that
00:18:06
◼
►
people can find it but it's still there
00:18:08
◼
►
like I don't know is that better I hope
00:18:10
◼
►
they would do something like that behind
00:18:11
◼
►
the scenes though I figured they
00:18:12
◼
►
probably aren't but if they did it would
00:18:15
◼
►
probably not be wise for us to know
00:18:17
◼
►
about that because I think that would
00:18:20
◼
►
cause issues you know ultimately what we
00:18:22
◼
►
what we want Apple to do is to make it
00:18:24
◼
►
easier for apps like ours to to be
00:18:28
◼
►
successful and and to be found by people
00:18:30
◼
►
in the app store but it's worth
00:18:32
◼
►
challenging the assumption that our abs
00:18:34
◼
►
are better you know like it likes sure
00:18:35
◼
►
if you look at what's actually in the
00:18:37
◼
►
App Store and if you look at that top
00:18:39
◼
►
grossing list and you see what succeeds
00:18:40
◼
►
it's probably hard for Apple look at
00:18:42
◼
►
that and think they have to do anything
00:18:44
◼
►
differently than what they're doing now
00:18:46
◼
►
in in like content choosing or or or
00:18:49
◼
►
steering the rules in such a way to
00:18:50
◼
►
encourage or discourage different types
00:18:52
◼
►
of apps than what they're getting now
00:18:53
◼
►
because what they're doing now is
00:18:55
◼
►
working very well just not people like
00:18:58
◼
►
us but it's working very well for some
00:18:59
◼
►
people and it's working very well it by
00:19:02
◼
►
many metrics for apples customers in the
00:19:05
◼
►
way that people are downloading a bunch
00:19:06
◼
►
of apps they are playing these games and
00:19:08
◼
►
putting their coins in it does work for
00:19:11
◼
►
a lot of people now just not us so is
00:19:16
◼
►
that really a problem like do you think
00:19:17
◼
►
Apple sees it as a problem and do you
00:19:19
◼
►
think it actually is a problem it's a
00:19:21
◼
►
tough question it's really hard to
00:19:23
◼
►
separate obviously the my own personal
00:19:26
◼
►
views and business from like sort of
00:19:28
◼
►
just like the more objective if this was
00:19:30
◼
►
not what I did and I was just a you know
00:19:32
◼
►
someone who just went to the Apple store
00:19:33
◼
►
bought an iPhone and opened up the App
00:19:36
◼
►
Store like and it is definitely a trap
00:19:38
◼
►
and I think you're sort of pointing good
00:19:39
◼
►
right to point it out is of the in these
00:19:42
◼
►
types of discussions in our community
00:19:43
◼
►
that you can very easily slip into the
00:19:46
◼
►
very subjective just like indie apps are
00:19:49
◼
►
better kind of a mindset and you end up
00:19:53
◼
►
with like well it's like if there's not
00:19:54
◼
►
a vibrant independent community of app
00:19:57
◼
►
of app makers that some
00:19:59
◼
►
like the world is a sad and terrible
00:20:01
◼
►
place and you know and you could argue
00:20:03
◼
►
in some ways it's like you know smaller
00:20:05
◼
►
companies tend to take bigger risks and
00:20:06
◼
►
so more innovation happens or those
00:20:08
◼
►
types of kind of more justifications in
00:20:10
◼
►
some ways what I hope is that if Apple
00:20:13
◼
►
is happy with the majority of sort of
00:20:16
◼
►
successful businesses in the App Store
00:20:17
◼
►
or a lot of the money for the App Store
00:20:19
◼
►
whatever coming from those types of
00:20:20
◼
►
games and being or even just being game
00:20:22
◼
►
focused in general that the majority si
00:20:24
◼
►
gets its games and big companies like
00:20:26
◼
►
Thea in the top ten grossing apps there
00:20:29
◼
►
are other things that aren't games
00:20:30
◼
►
there's things like Spotify or like
00:20:32
◼
►
services like that big companies the
00:20:34
◼
►
reality may be it's like and like the
00:20:36
◼
►
hard thing to say to myself is maybe
00:20:38
◼
►
that's fine with Apple and they're
00:20:41
◼
►
totally cool with that and in some ways
00:20:42
◼
►
their actions thus far are ready to
00:20:44
◼
►
indicate that they are and there's the
00:20:47
◼
►
you know the introspection I'm saying
00:20:48
◼
►
like if that's the reality it's like am
00:20:51
◼
►
I just in the wrong place at this point
00:20:53
◼
►
it's like it's not something that I
00:20:54
◼
►
really want to make a change about I'm
00:20:57
◼
►
not saying like oh I want to get out of
00:20:58
◼
►
the App Store but it's like and I look
00:21:00
◼
►
at that I'm like maybe at some point I
00:21:02
◼
►
will have to though because it would
00:21:05
◼
►
just sort of not be economically viable
00:21:07
◼
►
to do what I do and that would make me
00:21:09
◼
►
sad but yeah like it's it's not up to me
00:21:12
◼
►
to decide what goes into the App Store
00:21:13
◼
►
or what apps should you know should the
00:21:16
◼
►
App Store be geared around making viable
00:21:18
◼
►
obviously I'd like for it to be more
00:21:20
◼
►
viable for me and I think you could make
00:21:22
◼
►
a reasonable argument that it's
00:21:24
◼
►
important to have some base level of the
00:21:27
◼
►
smaller developers like us kind of
00:21:28
◼
►
filling in cracks and pushing boundaries
00:21:30
◼
►
and when new things come out you know
00:21:33
◼
►
it's like well I've made my business in
00:21:35
◼
►
a lot of ways about watching Apple and
00:21:37
◼
►
how they push your new technology out in
00:21:40
◼
►
there and their phones or in the in iOS
00:21:43
◼
►
looking for new opportunities and as
00:21:45
◼
►
soon as I can jumping on those and being
00:21:47
◼
►
able to take advantage of being smaller
00:21:49
◼
►
and being able to make those kinds of
00:21:50
◼
►
decisions that maybe bigger companies
00:21:53
◼
►
and that seems like a good thing but
00:21:55
◼
►
it's certainly for my it's like it's
00:21:56
◼
►
very selfish and self-centred to say
00:21:58
◼
►
like if the App Store doesn't make my
00:22:00
◼
►
business model work then you know it's
00:22:02
◼
►
not good the way that the App Store
00:22:05
◼
►
bothers me now that with like what
00:22:06
◼
►
succeeds and what doesn't you know not
00:22:07
◼
►
only from from just like a you know an
00:22:10
◼
►
obvious like envy that those aren't my
00:22:12
◼
►
apps in the top
00:22:13
◼
►
grossing position but what bothers me
00:22:15
◼
►
that I think might be relevant here to
00:22:17
◼
►
Apple and to the users is that the the
00:22:20
◼
►
apps that succeed today I think make the
00:22:22
◼
►
iPhone look a bit like a cheap flea
00:22:24
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market it is not it is not like a high a
00:22:28
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high fashion or a high quality branding
00:22:32
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angle that we see now today with like
00:22:35
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all these you know basically like casino
00:22:37
◼
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games that isn't there not this is not
00:22:40
◼
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like a classy great experience for a lot
00:22:43
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of people and it doesn't it doesn't make
00:22:45
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Apple's products look good to know that
00:22:47
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most people are using them most of the
00:22:49
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time to like you know throw coins into
00:22:52
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and into a psychologically abusive game
00:22:54
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that their friends and family made them
00:22:57
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like obligated to play like I don't know
00:23:00
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it and you know obviously people you
00:23:02
◼
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know it's a little bit snobby to me to
00:23:03
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say because like obviously a lot of
00:23:04
◼
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people do enjoy these games and are
00:23:06
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perfectly fine with that and I and I
00:23:07
◼
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don't want to diminish their enjoyment
00:23:09
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►
of those but do you think from Apple's
00:23:11
◼
►
point of view do you think that's really
00:23:12
◼
►
what they want the iPhone to to be in
00:23:14
◼
►
practice like do they do they care and
00:23:17
◼
►
does that really fit the way they want
00:23:19
◼
►
to brand this device I wouldn't think so
00:23:22
◼
►
like I mean this is the funny thing of
00:23:24
◼
►
you know I was in a fan of Apple before
00:23:26
◼
►
I was an Apple developer like I and the
00:23:30
◼
►
thing that I think is so it's like that
00:23:33
◼
►
a fundamental level when I try and think
00:23:35
◼
►
of the things that I associate with
00:23:37
◼
►
Apple and with you know sort of thick
00:23:39
◼
►
they're brand more generally is that
00:23:41
◼
►
there's a certain amount of trying to be
00:23:44
◼
►
more like it's more aspirational in the
00:23:47
◼
►
sense of they're trying to make it
00:23:48
◼
►
better they're not just trying to make
00:23:50
◼
►
like the they're not trying to just make
00:23:52
◼
►
a basic works is sufficient is fine
00:23:56
◼
►
phone like they're trying to make the
00:23:58
◼
►
best of anything and in most of the
00:24:01
◼
►
things that they do that whether or not
00:24:04
◼
►
they hit it or not is a whole other
00:24:05
◼
►
question but you know their goal their
00:24:07
◼
►
mission is to make the best and to have
00:24:12
◼
►
you know when you go into an Apple store
00:24:13
◼
►
that you always come out with a good
00:24:15
◼
►
experience like it's not they're not
00:24:17
◼
►
trying to be mediocre or sufficient
00:24:19
◼
►
they're always trying to be better and
00:24:21
◼
►
if you would apply that kind of mindset
00:24:24
◼
►
to the App Store you
00:24:26
◼
►
imagine you'd end up with a different
00:24:27
◼
►
app store you'd imagine if you know it's
00:24:29
◼
►
like if they're willing to take that
00:24:30
◼
►
risk of you know they don't make the
00:24:34
◼
►
hundreds of different very variations of
00:24:36
◼
►
the iPhone they try and make one that's
00:24:38
◼
►
really really good and is the best and
00:24:40
◼
►
in the same way it's like they rather
00:24:41
◼
►
than trying to have all the different
00:24:44
◼
►
you know it's like you go into an Apple
00:24:45
◼
►
store it doesn't feel like going into
00:24:46
◼
►
Walmart it's like the App Store is much
00:24:49
◼
►
more like going into Walmart or
00:24:50
◼
►
something like that
00:24:51
◼
►
or where you're yeah but it's that kind
00:24:53
◼
►
of a feeling right it's like you go in
00:24:55
◼
►
and you see a charger whatever it's you
00:24:57
◼
►
know some some iPhone accessory on the
00:24:59
◼
►
wall of an Apple store and you expect
00:25:02
◼
►
that that is going to be good Veit you
00:25:04
◼
►
know it meets a certain basic level of
00:25:06
◼
►
criteria and versus if you go into a you
00:25:08
◼
►
know the Walmart er you go into Amazon
00:25:10
◼
►
and you're presented with probably 10
00:25:13
◼
►
times the number of choices you have a
00:25:15
◼
►
much harder to you know decision and
00:25:17
◼
►
you're in a harder position to make that
00:25:19
◼
►
choice because they haven't curated it
00:25:21
◼
►
for you they haven't looked at it and
00:25:23
◼
►
said we think these are the best or
00:25:26
◼
►
these are the ones that you should try
00:25:27
◼
►
and I would hope if they did the same
00:25:30
◼
►
kind of mindset on to the App Store that
00:25:32
◼
►
you could end up with a better
00:25:32
◼
►
experience in a better place like
00:25:34
◼
►
overall and one that would fit I think
00:25:36
◼
►
students like the Apple brand better you
00:25:39
◼
►
know like the Google Play Store I think
00:25:40
◼
►
makes sense for Google like that sort of
00:25:41
◼
►
they're things like we you know we index
00:25:44
◼
►
all the information everywhere like
00:25:46
◼
►
they're sort of mindset around having
00:25:48
◼
►
the store that isn't strongly curated in
00:25:50
◼
►
the same way like it seems like that
00:25:52
◼
►
would be a better fit potentially but an
00:25:54
◼
►
Apple could potentially take the other
00:25:56
◼
►
to take the other extreme and say like
00:25:57
◼
►
you know what this is where we're gonna
00:25:59
◼
►
go and I think that would fit for them
00:26:00
◼
►
and you know ultimately obviously I
00:26:02
◼
►
would like that I think I would - I mean
00:26:05
◼
►
like I was getting on a plane recently
00:26:07
◼
►
and I wanted to download a whole bunch
00:26:08
◼
►
of like new good games and seeing what
00:26:10
◼
►
was actually successful in the top
00:26:12
◼
►
charts and and just trying just trying
00:26:14
◼
►
to find good games for myself to play on
00:26:16
◼
►
the plane like if nothing else the App
00:26:18
◼
►
Store should have tons of good games
00:26:19
◼
►
right but it honestly had a lot of
00:26:21
◼
►
trouble finding any that had any kind of
00:26:23
◼
►
depth whatsoever most of them are like
00:26:24
◼
►
you know really like stupid simple like
00:26:28
◼
►
shallow things that like you play it for
00:26:30
◼
►
10 seconds like oh that's all it is okay
00:26:32
◼
►
like it was actually really hard to find
00:26:34
◼
►
good stuff I I feel like I feel like we
00:26:36
◼
►
need better stuff in the App Store and
00:26:39
◼
►
we need Apple to
00:26:40
◼
►
to think about how they can how they can
00:26:42
◼
►
get better stuff in there how they can
00:26:44
◼
►
incentivize and sustain the development
00:26:47
◼
►
of better apps not just more apps yeah
00:26:50
◼
►
and I think there's some big problems
00:26:52
◼
►
here around like it's like the old what
00:26:54
◼
►
they caught the broken window problem
00:26:56
◼
►
mm-hmm you know where you have if you're
00:26:58
◼
►
in a neighborhood if you had a house
00:27:00
◼
►
that has you know has derelict and has
00:27:03
◼
►
some broken windows in it like it starts
00:27:06
◼
►
it has it has this different other thing
00:27:09
◼
►
it's like oh it starts to affect things
00:27:11
◼
►
that even aren't just that one house
00:27:12
◼
►
it's like if the bar and the expectation
00:27:15
◼
►
for going to the App Store isn't high
00:27:17
◼
►
enough it's gonna have knock-on effects
00:27:20
◼
►
to lots of other apps and other people
00:27:22
◼
►
like you end up with customers who have
00:27:24
◼
►
different have different expectations
00:27:25
◼
►
they'll look at the App Store and say I
00:27:27
◼
►
you know it's like you're more tense
00:27:30
◼
►
like things like I think about like
00:27:31
◼
►
their discussion last week or about
00:27:32
◼
►
pricing where it's harder in some ways
00:27:36
◼
►
to make a set into to convince someone
00:27:38
◼
►
to have a paid a friend app and to
00:27:40
◼
►
download it and in some of that I could
00:27:43
◼
►
imagine he's coming from a place of a
00:27:45
◼
►
there's a tremendous competition which
00:27:47
◼
►
is I've sort of always it's gonna have a
00:27:49
◼
►
downward pressure on pricing but also
00:27:51
◼
►
like if you don't have good expectations
00:27:56
◼
►
that what you're downloading is going to
00:27:57
◼
►
be good is going to be worth it because
00:28:00
◼
►
you've been burned before like that's
00:28:03
◼
►
going to discourage you from going in
00:28:04
◼
►
going ahead and downloading other apps
00:28:06
◼
►
and paying for them upfront and so you
00:28:08
◼
►
end up with you know more free apps and
00:28:09
◼
►
if your app is free then you have
00:28:11
◼
►
different like you enter this there's
00:28:13
◼
►
kind of vicious cycle because the amount
00:28:15
◼
►
of time that you're able you sort of
00:28:17
◼
►
sort of can justify putting into
00:28:18
◼
►
something if you expect to only be able
00:28:20
◼
►
to make money back from it you know
00:28:23
◼
►
either from consumable and a purchase or
00:28:25
◼
►
even just like if you're just putting it
00:28:26
◼
►
out with ads in it like you're sort of
00:28:29
◼
►
the value of each customer to you and
00:28:31
◼
►
for the the downside of having a
00:28:33
◼
►
customer have a bad experience like it
00:28:34
◼
►
just continues to shrink down in kind of
00:28:36
◼
►
this negative cycle exactly all right
00:28:41
◼
►
well we're out of time today I think
00:28:42
◼
►
we're gonna continue this discussion
00:28:43
◼
►
next week and with maybe some specific
00:28:46
◼
►
suggestions on like how Apple can really
00:28:48
◼
►
make the App Store better specific areas
00:28:50
◼
►
that might be worth experimenting with
00:28:52
◼
►
so thanks a lot for listening
00:28:54
◼
►
we will talk to you next week bye