0:00:00welcome to under the radar a show about
0:00:01independent iOS app development I'm
0:00:03Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
0:00:06the radar is never longer than 30
0:00:07minutes so let's get started so I am in
0:00:11the process of wrapping up development
0:00:13on my next app you I'm yes yes another
0:00:17one it's it's truly shocking and you
0:00:19know a revelation that I'd be working on
0:00:21a new app but I am and I'm at the point
0:00:24now where the app is mostly finished
0:00:29it's like functionally complete I'm
0:00:31getting ready to start sort of more
0:00:32broad testing and that kind of thing and
0:00:34it's an app that's geared in sort of in
0:00:36the health and fitness area that I've
0:00:38been doing recently to sort of join the
0:00:40ranks of pedometer plus plus and C++
0:00:42this one's about displaying the activity
0:00:46and fitness data collected by Apple
0:00:47watches you know hopefully a more useful
0:00:50way so I've come through like the part
0:00:53that I have a lot of comfort with in
0:00:55terms of sitting down and just building
0:00:57an app like the actual opening Xcode and
0:00:59coding that part I always feel good
0:01:01about but now I'm hitting an interesting
0:01:03a more challenging part of it at least
0:01:05for me that I thought it would be
0:01:07interesting to talk about and that's the
0:01:08process of working out the business
0:01:11model that I'm going to ultimately
0:01:13launch the app with and maybe some
0:01:15people would think that it would be a
0:01:17better idea to have the business model
0:01:19in mind before I make the app but that's
0:01:22just not the way I work I have an idea I
0:01:24start building it a few weeks later I
0:01:26have the app that's just how my process
0:01:29works so now I hit the point that I have
0:01:31to decide what am I going to do with
0:01:33this and you'd think at this point like
0:01:37I've been doing this for long enough and
0:01:38I've launched enough apps that I would
0:01:40just like immediately know what it isn't
0:01:42going to do but I kind of awkward
0:01:45reality as I looked at it and I'm like I
0:01:46don't really know what I want to do for
0:01:48this app like I could make it do do so
0:01:51many different things like the number of
0:01:53options available to app developers
0:01:55these days is kind of wild in terms of
0:01:58it's not just like an older sort of like
0:01:59the old days where it's like you could
0:02:01have a paid app or a free app or like
0:02:03push it free with ads and then like the
0:02:05introduced you know purchase and
0:02:06originally in a purchases were only in
0:02:07paid apps and so you could have like
0:02:09extra what they call like pay mia maps
0:02:11and
0:02:11then they added in a purchase for free
0:02:14apps we can do that now and this
0:02:16recently been a whole big wave of
0:02:18fitness apps being purchased by big
0:02:20companies and so that's even like this
0:02:22other kind of vague not like a business
0:02:23plan but they sort of like a concept of
0:02:26people are making fitness apps and
0:02:27eventually being purchased by bigger
0:02:29companies and making their money that
0:02:30way and so that leaves me in kind of a
0:02:33crazy thing and so I what I wanted to do
0:02:34this week is to sort of think out loud
0:02:38and get your your your thoughts Marco
0:02:41about how to proceed and kind of the
0:02:43considerations and the thoughts that go
0:02:45into this because I imagine anybody who
0:02:48is making an app a product something
0:02:50like that you have to go through this
0:02:51kind of mentality
0:02:53to think you know what's ultimately
0:02:55going to be best for you and the answer
0:02:58is probably different for everybody
0:02:59so thinking you know rather than just
0:03:01giving an answer explaining how I'm
0:03:04going to hopefully end up with an answer
0:03:06is probably more helpful so for me I
0:03:09think that one of the ways to look at
0:03:11this first off is if you have any any
0:03:14previous apps that you've made
0:03:16especially anything you've made in
0:03:17recent years you know since the economy
0:03:19always changes in the App Store any
0:03:21parallels you could draw from other apps
0:03:23of like what might be the best pricing
0:03:25model for like you know a similar app
0:03:27that you've made and how that's done
0:03:29sure and probably the closest have to
0:03:32this is it's really it's out of all my
0:03:35apps it's certainly going to be
0:03:35pedometer plus plus or sleep plus plus
0:03:37which are fitness apps and probably in
0:03:40many ways sleep plus plus is the actual
0:03:43a pedometer plus plus or in the early
0:03:44days have the same thing where like
0:03:46because it's an app that's tied to a
0:03:48particular platform like in when
0:03:51pedometer plus plus launched it was tied
0:03:53to the iPhone 5s and if you didn't have
0:03:55a 5s it was worthless to you and in you
0:03:58asleep plus plus if you don't give an
0:03:59Apple watch it's useless to you and we
0:04:01had this new app if you don't have an
0:04:02Apple watch it's not really gonna be
0:04:04able to show you anything useful so
0:04:05those are probably like the closest to
0:04:08the way I do now and those are both free
0:04:10with ads and an in-app purchase to
0:04:14remove the ads and in the case of
0:04:16pedometer plus plus the in-app purchase
0:04:17is structured as a consumable tip jar
0:04:20type of thing and in sleep us+ it's just
0:04:23like a one-time rake
0:04:24like any net purchase to remove ads with
0:04:27a nice little message saying thank you
0:04:28so much and pedometer plus plus does not
0:04:31have ads at all right it does okay I
0:04:34didn't it didn't initially launch with
0:04:36them initially it just launched with the
0:04:38tip jar but that I introduced ads a
0:04:42while after a while because the tip jar
0:04:45while conceptually I liked from a
0:04:48performance perspective didn't do that
0:04:50as well at least until I added advert
0:04:53ads to it and once I added ads like once
0:04:56there was both the carrot like hey
0:04:58support me this is great and the stick
0:05:00of I'm going to show ads in the app
0:05:01unless you pay like the combination of
0:05:04those two it led to a much more robust
0:05:07adoption of the tip jar and so I had it
0:05:10ads and it's been working much better
0:05:11since then because otherwise I'd find
0:05:13sort of the I launched it or I launched
0:05:15a big update and I'll get this kind of
0:05:16like this little wave of goodwill and
0:05:18then it drops to almost nothing and so
0:05:22that didn't really work in the long run
0:05:23that makes sense so now it seems like
0:05:27the the most logical conclusion then if
0:05:30you say that the new app is most similar
0:05:32to pedometer plus plus and apps like
0:05:34this and the pedometer plus plus and
0:05:36sleep plus plus both have this kind of
0:05:39you know ads with paid options to remove
0:05:41them models and they both work pretty
0:05:43well it seems on the surface that would
0:05:45be the best choice but with I ad
0:05:48shutting down this summer then obviously
0:05:50that there's a wrench into everything
0:05:51right exactly yeah and like I look at
0:05:53this and it's it's more complicated both
0:05:56because of that and also because in a
0:05:59weird way I also want like I kind of
0:06:01want diversity in my in my income stream
0:06:04and so like having everything be the
0:06:06same model sometimes it makes me wonder
0:06:08if that's problematic like if all of my
0:06:10money is coming from ads I mean it's
0:06:12sort of in the same way that like fair
0:06:13enough I can move to another advertising
0:06:15platform but you know if a there was
0:06:18some App Store policy change for example
0:06:20that changed the types of advertising
0:06:22that was that were allowed and it led to
0:06:25you know essentially meant that
0:06:27advertising rates collapsed like if all
0:06:29my income is coming from advertising
0:06:30then it's probably problematic or if the
0:06:35types of ads that are available you know
0:06:38become more and more skeezy and crumby
0:06:40then I can like and if my entire like
0:06:44business is based on that like that's
0:06:46not a great position either and so I end
0:06:48up with this weird thing if it's like
0:06:50there's a lot of things that I could do
0:06:51and when I was taking a step back and
0:06:54thinking in preparing for this episode I
0:06:56kept finally coming back to is it's like
0:06:58ultimately I have to decide and this is
0:06:59like really I think that like you can
0:07:01build and a business models to do what
0:07:03like one of four things you can either
0:07:05like maximize the money that you get now
0:07:08you can maximize the reliability of
0:07:12income you'll get later you can maximize
0:07:15the overall money the app will ever
0:07:18receive in its lifetime or you can try
0:07:21and maximize your user base which one of
0:07:24those things will vary dramatically
0:07:26dependent like will then decide which
0:07:28business model makes most sense for you
0:07:30because okay if I want the most money
0:07:32now well I should probably do like a
0:07:34paid app just like charge money up front
0:07:36hope for a little bit of press when the
0:07:38app launches you know kind of get a big
0:07:40big push have a couple of days with nice
0:07:43big sales and then it'll likely fall off
0:07:46pretty dramatically least that's my
0:07:49experience is that you end up with this
0:07:50very steep drop-off afterwards but you
0:07:53know in that first couple in that first
0:07:54cut in the first week or so you can
0:07:56actually make quite a lot more than you
0:07:59would probably be able to make from any
0:08:00of the other models and so you can make
0:08:02it now and like if I want reliable
0:08:04income something like advertising is
0:08:06great because it's there's no not there
0:08:09isn't kind of like this one time
0:08:11purchase nature to it where people just
0:08:13keep every time they open the app I make
0:08:16you know a fraction of a penny and so
0:08:18the more if people keep using the app
0:08:20there continues to be money coming in
0:08:23like overall revenue is probably going
0:08:25to be some combination of them like
0:08:28where it's like I'm gonna do everything
0:08:29I'm gonna have ads I'm gonna have in-app
0:08:32purchases to remove ads I may have NF
0:08:34purchases to do features like do
0:08:37everything you could possibly do to try
0:08:38and maximize things and then if I wanted
0:08:40to like Matt just maximize the user base
0:08:42well then kind of take the VC model and
0:08:44say you know
0:08:45just make it free like in hope that
0:08:48you'll work something out down the road
0:08:49like if once you have you know hundreds
0:08:52of thousands of customers using the app
0:08:53all the time then hey that's got to be
0:08:56worth something to someone right yeah I
0:08:58mean so I think so you know with
0:08:59overcast I obviously chose the pretty
0:09:02much the latter option but you know
0:09:04pretty much make it free at first I had
0:09:07like you know free with unlock to get
0:09:09all features now it's pretty much
0:09:11everything's free and and you you know
0:09:13you you pay if you feel like it which is
0:09:16almost like everything's free and the
0:09:20reason I did that was because I've
0:09:21wanted to maximize the user base really
0:09:23you know I have I have like political
0:09:24goals with with how I feel about how
0:09:27podcasting apps should and shouldn't be
0:09:28designed and I you know I want to like
0:09:31keep podcasting open and and you know
0:09:33reduce the influence of proprietary
0:09:35gatekeepers and everything and so for me
0:09:37it was important to maximize the user
0:09:39base first and then figure out money
0:09:41with that in mind like you know not
0:09:43necessarily later because I didn't delay
0:09:45making money but just like figure out a
0:09:48way to make money while also giving away
0:09:50as much as possible for free and so you
0:09:53know that that's the model I chose that
0:09:55though you know that was in the context
0:09:57of this entire ecosystem that had these
0:09:59other factors that I was playing to in
0:10:02in your situation here with this app you
0:10:04know with every app certain models will
0:10:07work better than others you know and and
0:10:09it depends so much on what the app is
0:10:10what the competition is how your market
0:10:13timing is you know what you know what
0:10:15the market is itself so something like
0:10:18pedometer plus plus that was that
0:10:20initially a paid app or was it always
0:10:22free upfront it's always free cuz it's
0:10:23because of in especially it was free
0:10:26because it required an iPhone 5s and
0:10:28there was no way that I could require
0:10:30you to have one before you purchased it
0:10:32and so I made it free because I was
0:10:35afraid that there would be lots of
0:10:36people who would pay for it and then
0:10:39immediately discover that it's worthless
0:10:41and go and get a refund or leave a
0:10:43one-star review and so it just never
0:10:45seemed like paid would be a viable
0:10:47option right and so therefore the same
0:10:50thing applies to this then because this
0:10:51requires an Apple watch so you know it's
0:10:53or what does it officially require it
0:10:55isn't you know basically it basically
0:10:56requires it right it basically record
0:10:58everybody it would be fairly useless
0:10:59that one right exactly so it seems like
0:11:02paid is right out the window which is
0:11:04unfortunate because actually something
0:11:06like this where you're saying like you
0:11:08know it's taking advantage of something
0:11:10new it's something that is a that is a
0:11:12small market there's probably going to
0:11:14be very little competition out there at
0:11:16least at first so that kind of condition
0:11:18usually is a really good fit for paid
0:11:21where you have people who are going to
0:11:23be motivated to get it and very little
0:11:25competition really and and especially it
0:11:28being new well that combination usually
0:11:30means go paid upfront because you kind
0:11:34of have to be free up front because we
0:11:35don't have real trials this would be a
0:11:38man this would be a great case for a
0:11:39trial but but those don't exist so
0:11:41instead you have to be free somewhat so
0:11:44the only question now is whether you
0:11:46lock some features whether you use ads
0:11:49or whether you just don't think about
0:11:50money with this app and use it for other
0:11:51purposes like promoting your other stuff
0:11:53or giving back to the world or whatever
0:11:56so going through those one by one I
0:11:58guess free with unlock is tricky certain
0:12:03apps there just really isn't a good
0:12:04place to put that locking barrier so
0:12:07like one of the examples I know I think
0:12:09James Thompson talked about this a while
0:12:11ago with P calc is you know where do you
0:12:13if you have a calculator that you want
0:12:16to be free upfront with a paid app
0:12:18purchase to unlock something what do you
0:12:20unlock like the nine button like it's
0:12:22it's hard it's like certain apps are
0:12:24just hard to figure out where to place
0:12:26that barrier in a way that the app isn't
0:12:29totally useless without it but that
0:12:31enough people will hit that barrier and
0:12:33be motivated to pay and certain apps the
0:12:36answer is just this doesn't fit well and
0:12:38there isn't a good place for it and
0:12:40certain apps you know there are plenty
0:12:41of places for it and the question is
0:12:43where do you put it and so in this case
0:12:45do you think there's a good spot to have
0:12:48a paid unlock like there's a good
0:12:50feature or set of features or limit that
0:12:52can be removed where enough people will
0:12:56hit that and want to pay but they won't
0:12:58hate you because it's so annoying every
0:13:00time they hit it the only one that comes
0:13:03to mind for an app like this is to do
0:13:05with some type of kind of artificial
0:13:07limit
0:13:08the amount of data that it will display
0:13:12so you'd have something you know it's
0:13:14sort of like being the same with like
0:13:15pedometer plus balls like it shows you
0:13:16historical data it would be like you can
0:13:19only see the current week unlock to see
0:13:21all kind of a thing
0:13:24is the only thing that I could sort of
0:13:26see because partitioning the feature set
0:13:29or the functionality in other ways like
0:13:30it feels so contrived like feels much
0:13:33more like the yeah like you don't use
0:13:35like you can do multiplication but you
0:13:37can't do division like that right
0:13:39exactly
0:13:40it completely kind of removes the point
0:13:43of the app if you start partitioning the
0:13:45features and so the only way I could
0:13:46ever really I could have a kind of
0:13:48imagine is to say like hey I'm only
0:13:50going to show you this amount of data
0:13:51you know if you scroll beyond that
0:13:52there'll be a little box that says hey
0:13:54would you like to see the rest of your
0:13:55data you know I'm holding it hostage for
0:13:57$2 at the bottom
0:14:00yeah and that's that's so tricky to do
0:14:02while also balancing like the users will
0:14:05to pay you because it's so easy to just
0:14:07appear really stingy or annoying or
0:14:10cheap with what you give them for free
0:14:11and what you don't and if they don't
0:14:13feel good about your app they usually
0:14:16won't pay to get past that barrier some
0:14:18people still will and they will hate you
0:14:19for it I've done that before with some
0:14:22apps like sometimes for like I really
0:14:24needed it to get my job done and they
0:14:26offered a free trial and I kept hitting
0:14:29walls and I just eventually I did pay in
0:14:32a lot of these cases and I but I just
0:14:34felt terrible I felt like I hated them
0:14:36for it and that kind of soured me on the
0:14:38whole company and on you know like their
0:14:40future products or my experience with
0:14:42the app or my willingness to recommend
0:14:43it to others so it's always a hard
0:14:45balance when you whenever you have these
0:14:46barriers but that being said if you have
0:14:49an app where a barrier like this makes
0:14:53sense and where you where you can find a
0:14:54good place for it and you implement that
0:14:56well it usually is a really good way to
0:14:59make a reasonable living like it you can
0:15:01usually get decent income that way
0:15:03without a lot of the problems of things
0:15:06like ads or paid upfront so usually that
0:15:09that is great when it works but it is
0:15:12really hard to make it work yeah and I
0:15:14think one thing that I always struggle
0:15:15with and I'm trying to think of this
0:15:16it's like
0:15:18it's what am i communicating to my
0:15:20customer because like the hardest part I
0:15:22think like that you have to get over and
0:15:24a little bit I think you're alluding to
0:15:25it for like it makes you feel bad is
0:15:27when you say like this part of the app
0:15:31is free like the the initial part like
0:15:34in typically it's like the core part
0:15:36like the main purpose of the app is free
0:15:38and then there's these extra things that
0:15:40are are like cost more like the weird
0:15:45thing that you have to keep in mind is
0:15:47in some ways what you're communicating
0:15:48to your customer is like the core part
0:15:50of the app is free or in some ways you
0:15:52could like it's not a great word but
0:15:54it's more helpful for this analogy it's
0:15:57like this part of the app is worthless
0:15:58and this other part somehow I'm saying
0:16:03is worth full but if you look at those
0:16:06as a customer
0:16:08they may look functionally identical
0:16:09right it's you're saying like if you
0:16:13know the ability to do this XY and Z
0:16:15shouldn't cost you anything and I'm
0:16:18telling you that it shouldn't cost you
0:16:19anything to do these things because I
0:16:21just gave you an app that you downloaded
0:16:23for free that does those things so I've
0:16:25communicated to you this is worthless
0:16:27but you know but this other thing
0:16:30that is essentially probably very
0:16:31similar to the other thing and is in
0:16:34many ways a contrived barrier like
0:16:37somehow it should be valuable and like
0:16:39there's a dissonance there that I feel
0:16:41like is is where it gets really hard
0:16:42like you can only really make the case
0:16:44for unlocking something when the thing
0:16:47that you're paying is like paying for
0:16:49feels different and like completely
0:16:54orthogonal to the thing that you the
0:16:57core part of the thing that you gave
0:16:58away for free you know so often you'll
0:17:00have something where there's a physical
0:17:02cost associated with it like you're
0:17:04paying for storage or for a sink you
0:17:07know to access sink or something where
0:17:10it's not the thing that I gave you for
0:17:12free just you know like I it's something
0:17:16totally different in a team's of a
0:17:17tangible way because when you do that I
0:17:20think maybe that's where you can get
0:17:21around that feeling of like I feel bad
0:17:23about this because I feel like they're
0:17:25just kind of you know like being cheap
0:17:27by you know creating this artificial
0:17:30limit
0:17:31it's tough too because when you put up a
0:17:33limit like that people who will hit it
0:17:36and they will they will try to
0:17:37rationalize not going past it so though
0:17:39if you put up a limit and you say well
0:17:41you can only see the last week of data
0:17:43or whatever you know whatever limit you
0:17:45put up yeah people are gonna hit that
0:17:46and they're first going to think well I
0:17:48guess I don't need that right like
0:17:50they're gonna try to convince themselves
0:17:51they don't need that because they don't
0:17:53really want to pay so we're gonna try to
0:17:55say well you know what I can get along
0:17:57fine without that and even if they would
0:17:59enjoy the app more with that even if
0:18:01they would get their $2.00 or whatever
0:18:03worth of enjoyment or value out of
0:18:06having gone past that barrier they will
0:18:08try very hard to convince themselves
0:18:10even if it's subconscious not to go past
0:18:12that barrier and so you'll have so many
0:18:14people who really could use the app who
0:18:16really could enjoy it a lot more if they
0:18:19would pay the two bucks but who have
0:18:20convinced themselves they don't need to
0:18:22because they would rather not and and
0:18:24like that's the issue I favor the
0:18:25overcast that's one of the reasons I
0:18:26want patron eggs eventually it's just
0:18:28very hard but I don't know and then we
0:18:30have we have a lot more better options
0:18:32or different options at least including
0:18:34ads but let's read an ad first because
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0:20:16so there's also ad supported apps to me
0:20:20like it sounds like it'd be a decent
0:20:22idea because it sounds like you get
0:20:24money for when the app is being used and
0:20:27no one has to decide whether to pay you
0:20:29or not because the ad is paying you
0:20:31automatically effectively if they use
0:20:33the app and they can maybe pay to remove
0:20:35it or something that's you know that's a
0:20:36separate discussion which I'm sure we'll
0:20:37have but at the heart of it you kind of
0:20:40automatically just get money slowly with
0:20:42usage of course there's downsides in
0:20:45practice things like you know privacy
0:20:48concerns annoyance concerns image
0:20:50concerns what do you think about after
0:20:51that yeah it's a it's an uncomfortable
0:20:57it's like it's like if you may have
0:20:59noticed that was an uncomfortable intake
0:21:01of breath yeah because I don't read I
0:21:04don't like using apps that have ads in
0:21:06them but I make a substantial amount of
0:21:10my revenue from ads and like there's a
0:21:14little bit of cognitive dissidence about
0:21:16that like it's like the ultimately the
0:21:17pragmatic part of like this is the
0:21:19practical way to make revenue but the
0:21:22reality is I never really like I don't
0:21:24my app is never made better by having an
0:21:27ad in it like it's not like oh wow well
0:21:30it's like people will love it when they
0:21:31can see ads for other you know for for a
0:21:35game of war or clash of clans or
0:21:38whatever like the like the latest
0:21:40creative play game is like which is
0:21:42essentially what most online ads seem or
0:21:44mobile ads seems to be these days
0:21:46therefore like I don't know those games
0:21:47or they're for a big brand like audible
0:21:49or Google or something like that
0:21:51and so putting those into my apps like
0:21:55always feels a little bit's not great
0:21:59but the reality is like like you said
0:22:02like it works well and I like
0:22:05conceptually the fact that I'm getting
0:22:08paid for use in a way that like it's a
0:22:12really nice virtuous cycle like I want
0:22:14to make an app that's really engaging
0:22:15and you wanna you know you want to keep
0:22:18opening up and looking at you know from
0:22:21showing you you know health and fitness
0:22:22data like hopefully it's motivating
0:22:24hopefully it's something that you want
0:22:25to go and check on a regular basis and
0:22:27so aligning a business model with that
0:22:29where it is something that the more you
0:22:31use it the more money I make like is
0:22:34great and in some ways it reminds me
0:22:35think of the way that like I almost kind
0:22:38of wish that there were was a mechanism
0:22:41kind of like quote musicians have with
0:22:45streaming services oh you don't want
0:22:47that conceptually I do I don't
0:22:50necessarily like it breaks down in
0:22:52certain ways obviously like all these
0:22:54things do but like conceptually you just
0:22:55add a bunch of zeros to the number
0:22:57basically then we want that version of
0:22:58it that version that version B so is so
0:23:00great right for the conceptually like
0:23:02every time someone listens to the song
0:23:03they get a bit of money and like if
0:23:05every time someone opens my app I got a
0:23:07bit of money that would be great
0:23:10like if the if such a thing sort of
0:23:11existed like if there was like a breath
0:23:13and Apple music there was like Apple app
0:23:15and people paid a certain amount of
0:23:17money and it was distributed around
0:23:18people based on what they used or
0:23:20something right like you could imagine a
0:23:21system that would sort of work in that
0:23:22way like it's hugely problematic and I'm
0:23:25not really advocating for that but like
0:23:27conceptually a version it would be like
0:23:30the business model that adds create but
0:23:33without the potential for kind of like
0:23:36not desirable aesthetics in my apps so
0:23:40like that would be great that doesn't
0:23:42exist and so you end up with ads and you
0:23:46ultimately I like I end up like most
0:23:48likely than not that's ultimately what
0:23:49I'll probably have to do is I look at
0:23:51and it's like you know if I have ads in
0:23:54this app I will if it's successful if
0:23:57it's just downloaded wildly then I will
0:23:59likely you know make a reasonable amount
0:24:01of semi reliable income from it
0:24:03and if P if it's sticky and people
0:24:05really like it and keep coming back to
0:24:07it like my revenue will continue to if
0:24:09not grow at least to stay stable in long
0:24:11term which is great like see our episode
0:24:13about work-life balance that we just did
0:24:16where I talked about like the more you
0:24:18can make your income kind of like
0:24:21passive and not related to what you're
0:24:22doing like the better and so ads are
0:24:25great for that because it's all based on
0:24:27work you've done in the past like
0:24:29continuing to pay you in the future I
0:24:30just wish it didn't make me feel so kind
0:24:33of like mmm whenever I do it yeah and it
0:24:37seemed like with ads like you could do
0:24:39something crazy like direct sales of ads
0:24:41but that's a lot of work it's the best
0:24:44for like privacy maximization really and
0:24:46it might be the classiest but that's a
0:24:48ton of work and as you go like kind of
0:24:50down the rabbit hole I'm like well I
0:24:51could join a network and then you know a
0:24:54small app network if that existed which
0:24:57I don't even know if it does but you
0:24:58know assuming that existed up then then
0:25:00we pool resources selling ads is a
0:25:02little bit easier I've maybe I don't
0:25:03have to do it anymore or I can I can you
0:25:05know share a salesperson with somebody
0:25:06else and as you get further down it's
0:25:08like well all these things are a lot of
0:25:09work until you get down to the well I
0:25:12can just plug in a module from a big ad
0:25:15provider where I might not have even
0:25:18beat I might not have even dealt with a
0:25:19human at all to be part of this thing
0:25:21you're getting who knows what ads from
0:25:23who knows where and they're doing who
0:25:25knows what with your customers private
0:25:26privacy and data but that's also the
0:25:28easiest for you I like that and so like
0:25:31with ads you like the the incentives are
0:25:34all towards getting creepier and
0:25:36creepier because the the easiest ways to
0:25:38get into ads and the most accessible
0:25:40ways against ads happen to also be the
0:25:43worst about privacy and customer data in
0:25:45most cases whereas you know anything
0:25:47better than that tends to take more work
0:25:49than most people can really devote to it
0:25:51exactly and that guy in my first ever
0:25:54foray into ads I did actually sell them
0:25:57direct like this was like way back early
0:25:59days of the app store because like ad
0:26:01networks didn't exist and like I would
0:26:04sell ads to you typically was to other
0:26:06app developers at very small very small
0:26:09amounts of money but it's like that was
0:26:12the best you could do back then but now
0:26:14yeah like you would just you install
0:26:16I add for the next couple of months or
0:26:19you know AdMob from Google or any of the
0:26:21million things like see our previous
0:26:23episode about ads where there's like so
0:26:24many networks and all kinds of things
0:26:26and you just kind of put it in and like
0:26:29in theory like and then money will start
0:26:31flowing and like that's great it's like
0:26:33in some ways this is an area though with
0:26:35like some you know the last version of
0:26:37like business model that I probably
0:26:39doesn't really fit from what I do but is
0:26:41interesting nevertheless is I am kind of
0:26:42envious of venture funded companies in
0:26:45this regard because they don't have a
0:26:47business model like they don't need well
0:26:50they have a different business model
0:26:50therapist this model is get really huge
0:26:53and worry about it later even though
0:26:55that usually means probably get bought
0:26:57before we have to worry about it exactly
0:26:59which is a business model it's just
0:27:00different for what we do yeah and like I
0:27:02look at that and I'm like in some ways
0:27:03that's actually kind of cool like to be
0:27:04able to just say like you know what I'm
0:27:05just gonna focus on making something
0:27:07cool and getting as many people as I can
0:27:10to use it and I don't need to worry
0:27:12about the financial part of that and in
0:27:15some ways like that's kind of
0:27:16interesting like I've definitely had the
0:27:19thought for some something like this of
0:27:20saying like you know what if I just went
0:27:21to like took that tack and like hope you
0:27:25know it's like MyFitnessPal got bought
0:27:27by Under Armour RunKeeper got bought by
0:27:30a6 like at some point is good COO you
0:27:33know if I was able to make some make a
0:27:35like a wildly successful health and
0:27:38fitness app that could it be picked up
0:27:39by some other company for you know it's
0:27:41probably in some ways more money than I
0:27:43could ever make from you know running
0:27:44AdMob ads in an application like that
0:27:48sounds kind of interesting it's like the
0:27:51risk dynamic on that just like goes
0:27:53through the roof where it's like or I
0:27:54could end up with having made this cool
0:27:56thing that ends up making me no money
0:27:58ever and that's kind of terrifying as
0:28:01well yeah all right well what do you
0:28:05think you're gonna do I have um have you
0:28:06come to any conclusions or you still
0:28:07gotta think about it I'm still gonna
0:28:09think about it I'm probably gonna do at
0:28:12like I think my default is gonna be ads
0:28:14like I don't think paid works
0:28:16I don't think unlocking features really
0:28:18works like I don't like the thought of
0:28:20right and to clarify it really works for
0:28:22this app on both exactly the whole point
0:28:25of this discussion is like whether it
0:28:26works in this particular case and like
0:28:28the reason we're going through it step
0:28:29by step
0:28:30that every app is different this is why
0:28:32this may or may not make sense for this
0:28:34app ads are like the easy thing I don't
0:28:38feel great about them but I think they
0:28:40are sort of like the obvious and
0:28:41straightforward choice I'll most
0:28:43certainly have an option to remove the
0:28:46ads I'm just in terms of that's often
0:28:48just it makes me feel better maybe it's
0:28:50like it's just like cleansing my
0:28:51conscience a little bit about not having
0:28:53ads to say like so you know like if you
0:28:55don't like them that's fine then it's
0:28:56just a paid app and you can give me
0:28:58money and we'll go away and if I'm
0:29:01feeling particularly daring or a little
0:29:03bit reckless in wild then maybe I just
0:29:04make it free but being a one-person shop
0:29:07who pays my mortgage with the revenue
0:29:10from my apps not having any revenue does
0:29:13not seem particularly wise yeah all
0:29:16right well that's all the time we have
0:29:18for today thanks a lot to our sponsor
0:29:19hover and we will talk to everybody next
0:29:21week bye