Under the Radar 17: Work-Life Balance
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welcome to under the radar a show about
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independent iOS development I'm Marco
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Arment and I'm David Smith under the
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radar is never longer than 30 minutes so
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let's get started
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I have little hesitation there you
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almost said 15 almost so this week we're
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gonna be talking about work-life balance
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both of us are independent both of us
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have had jobs before and and and you've
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you did consulting for a while right I
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did yeah I did only very briefly so I'm
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not much of an authority on consulting
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but you are and so we kind of have had
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these these different job types and the
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the work-life balance can can vary a lot
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between them you know I think full-time
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employment when you're working forget
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somebody else you have like a
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nine-to-five kind of job at least you
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know you hope sometimes it's worse than
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that but that's generally going for when
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you're working full-time for somebody
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else you you are kind of not in control
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of your own work-life balance - - most -
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most of the degree but that might be a
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good thing sometimes like you know the
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full-time jobs can span the entire
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spectrum from worst to best work-life
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balance and that it really depends on
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the job and the conditions around it but
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when they're good when you have a nice
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easy you know or not easy but if when
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you have a good job at a well-run place
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working on something that's not totally
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crazy that can usually offer the best
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and most consistent work-life balance
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among all the different employment types
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in our business and that you know it's
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most likely to be a healthy work-life
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balance when you have like a big boring
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company that you're working for working
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on probably something that isn't that
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interesting of work to you necessarily
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and that you know that won't be like the
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trendy cool thing that all the Google
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people are talking about or whatever
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like you know stuff that we wouldn't be
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talking about on our tech podcast in all
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likelihood you know you work for a bank
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or insurance company or something like
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that like the the we think of these jobs
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oftentimes as like being boring but
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boring can be really good in a lot of
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ways and it can really offer an
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incredibly healthy work-life balance if
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most of the time you're not working
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incredibly long hours you're not having
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to work on the weekends or when you're
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home you know or on vacation like you
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know you don't really take work with you
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when you leave work so when you have one
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of these jobs that
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offer an incredible work/life balance
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and usually you know again it might not
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be like the most cutting-edge stuff in
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the consumer space to get working on you
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know you might not be building the next
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photo sharing app or whatever you
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probably also won't strike it rich doing
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this kind of thing because you probably
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are working for a more mature sheilo
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company where you're getting a typical
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salary for the kind of work you do
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you're probably not getting a lot of
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stock or stock options or at least of
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what you're getting will be fairly
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incrementally valuable so that you know
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there are downsides to this but it's it
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can really provide incredible work-life
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out because really once you leave work
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generally you're done for the day you
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don't have to be constantly on call
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constantly doing things answering emails
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you know at midnight when you're trying
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to go to bed and your boss is emailing
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you about crazy stuff I think usually
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doesn't happen in these bigger companies
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and they also can usually help manage
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vacation time a lot better you know like
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it when you when you work for yourself
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you know you you can take vacation
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whenever you want but often times I
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think we'll get to this oftentimes
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that's kind of a bad thing as well when
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you work for a big company
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you usually accrue vacation time on a
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certain fixed rate per year that you're
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working there per month that you're
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working there and usually they will even
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have to pay it out to you if you quit or
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get or I don't know if you get fire but
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it when you leave like these days are
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actually accounted for so like you earn
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vacation days and you are often forced
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to take them or like they or they won't
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they won't accumulate past a certain
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limit so you have to take a vacation you
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know kind of thing and oftentimes that
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is better than like a kind of freeform
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vacation policy if you're working for
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like a little startup or working for
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yourself where it's like you know you
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could they're like well you can take a
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vacation whenever you want but you can
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never stop working like it's often times
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that work-life balance that you get at a
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bigger company or at a more mature
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company is just unbeatable and then you
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also have if you're doing consulting
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work you know if you decide not to work
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for a big company a lot a lot of people
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on our business are doing consulting
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work and with consulting you are much
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more responsible for maintaining your
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own work-life balance then when you're
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working for somebody else and and it's
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kind of a weird middle ground it I think
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consulting if I had to take a guess in a
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broad generalization I
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it's a consulting probably offers the
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the least work-life balance
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health of all the different employment
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types that I've seen from people who do
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it because you you don't have a
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full-time boss but every client is kind
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of a boss so you kind of have like
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multiple bosses all of whom have
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different expectations on your time and
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your income is tied directly to the
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hours that you are working for them and
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you have to build them for the hours and
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they are paying for these hours so it's
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kind of hard to waste any and so if you
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stop working for say a night or a
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weekend like if you stop working the
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money stops coming in so there's a huge
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incentive to overwork and to not have a
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good work-life balance and the NL's
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oftentimes consulting work comes in
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waves so you might have really created
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times and then really dry time it's kind
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of hard to to keep things in balance
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there so I think consulting hard be the
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hardest then you have indie life where
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if you if you work on your own products
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or if you are the owner of a company or
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work is kind of different but you know
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if you work on your own stuff you it
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seems like you'd have the best work life
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balance possible but in reality you have
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many of the same pressures as
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consultants do where you kind of impose
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your own guilt on yourself like if I
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wait I'm not working right now so I'm
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not like I'm wasting time or I should be
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always doing something or this is
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unproductive time and like it makes it
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hard to enjoy like a vacation or even a
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night off like a night to watch TV with
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your spouse or go out or something like
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it makes it hard to enjoy that when you
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work for yourself and you know that like
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like I could be working right now I
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could be doing something right now and
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any time you're not spent working the
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work is just not moving forward there's
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no one else picking up the slack or the
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office isn't just closed for the day
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like just things just stop when you're
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not working and this can often lead to a
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harder than usual work-life balance to
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maintain so I don't know so so both of
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us are the last cut of our image and the
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independent developers who work for
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ourselves so and you don't really do any
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consulting anymore do you
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I don't you haven't for a few years
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right yeah so so both of us are totally
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dependent now we work only on our own
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but I mean well I guess we could let's
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start with kind of like a status update
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like how do you think your work-life
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balance is I think now like having now
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been I think I've been independent for
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about eight years and I've been haven't
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done consulting for probably three years
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or so like I've been fully fully
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independent for three or four years now
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I'd say I'm getting pretty good at it
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it's been the result though of a lot of
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effort in time and thought to get to
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here because by default you're not gonna
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have a good work-life balance like that
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was the thing that I sort of found when
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I weighed sort of quit my day job and
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it's like okay it's like this will be
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great I'll work from home I'll be able
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to like be around okay
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I've started going independent right
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when our first child was born I was like
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this is be great I'll be home I'll be
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around him as he's growing up this will
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be awesome and like the default state
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was terrible because I was I felt like I
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was I felt like concurrently felt like I
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was always working and like I was never
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working like I was in this weird tension
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where like I'm always thinking about
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work but I'm also always at home and so
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I'm always think about home stuff too
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and it was terrible over the course of
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the last few years though it's like it's
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we've found things that work for you
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know for fer me and my family to be able
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to be like okay yeah this works like I
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feel like I have a good sense of getting
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work done like I'm being productive and
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useful and not just like she's sitting
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on the deck Drina drinking martinis but
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I'm also at home when I need to be at
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home and my you know my kids understand
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how that works and my wife understands
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how that works and it seems to be
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that's good yeah I I have a lot to learn
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from you because you know I've been
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independent since late 2010 and I so you
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know about about five years and I have I
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have not found the balance yet I've kind
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of oscillate between what you know the
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former part of what you said of like
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constantly worrying about work and
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family stuff and just not getting enough
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work done and then feeling guilty I'm
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not getting enough work done or feeling
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regret that I can't do more like because
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you know I have a certain amount of time
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of the day I
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decided which I think we talked about
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I'm sure we will I've decided that it is
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not right for me to hire people like for
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what like I don't think I would be
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happier or necessarily even more
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productive if I hired people nothing not
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even to mention the problem of a
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forwarding them and then the other other
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issues with hiring somebody so like I
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I'm limited by what I can do and so I
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feel a burden from that of like I should
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work more or I wish I could work more
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but then when I have periods of working
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a lot I have a lot of trouble turning it
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off to go to sleep at night or to go out
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to dinner or something like I have a lot
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of trouble maintaining that balance and
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so usually I err more on the lazy side
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more recently of well I guess I'll you
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know I'll be with my family I'll help
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out around the house and I'll be present
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for everybody but then I regret not
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getting more work done and I don't know
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I mean I I still have a lot to learn I
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think and I think they think there comes
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to mind is I always remember like the
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insight that I think was most helpful
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when I was trying to work this out
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several years ago this is like it's the
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understanding that my work can hurt my
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family life as well as my family life
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can hurt my work that I remember when I
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was starting out it was easy to kind of
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think about it as sort most like my
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family life was the thing that would be
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hurt from working too much
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sort of like which is makes sense in
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some ways coming from like a more
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corporate environment where kind of like
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workaholism is more the typical problem
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that you would be worried about where
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you work too much and you never see your
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kids and all this kind of thing and I
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remember when I first started that was
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what I was worried about that my work
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was gonna hurt my family and then I also
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then when I found though it's like it
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goes the other way exactly in the same
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way that my family life can also hurt my
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work and its interests and like both of
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these states are such both of so like
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these things are undesirable like I
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don't want one to hurt the one or the
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one to hurt the other like that's why we
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call it work-life balance I guess like
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if you're trying to find something in
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the middle and in the end what I end up
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finding is it's like the old saying good
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fences make good neighbors like the best
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way that I found to be able to improve
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my work-life balance is to build Walt's
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or build fences between my work life and
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my family life both physically in terms
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of where I work
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of my time in terms of when I work in
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terms of the things that I do when I'm
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in one place versus the other and only
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when I've been able to kind of really
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split the two in part in in half if I
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found it to be at all functional because
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otherwise I'm always you always have
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like the guilt on one side or the guilt
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on the other and that's like it's
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neither productive nor helpful yeah I
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think that's probably where I have to
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explore like the fencing off both
00:11:34
◼
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physical and like you know scheduling
00:11:36
◼
►
wise because I'm just I'm terrible at
00:11:38
◼
►
that you know I I work in a home office
00:11:40
◼
►
my wife is here with me much of the time
00:11:43
◼
►
my kid is here with me much of the time
00:11:45
◼
►
he goes to school but you know that's
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◼
►
not every day and that's not all day and
00:11:49
◼
►
and I work it out and any hour of the
00:11:51
◼
►
day you know I will work in the morning
00:11:54
◼
►
sometimes I'll work at night sometimes
00:11:55
◼
►
like it just goes all over the place and
00:11:57
◼
►
and there's really no boundaries
00:11:59
◼
►
to when and where and how I get work
00:12:02
◼
►
done and as a result it is hard to have
00:12:06
◼
►
like long uninterrupted spans or it's
00:12:09
◼
►
not be thinking about work when I'm not
00:12:10
◼
►
at work you know it's it's hard to
00:12:12
◼
►
maintain his balance yeah and I think
00:12:14
◼
►
the thing that I found most helpful like
00:12:16
◼
►
along those lines is that as an example
00:12:19
◼
►
I and work every day at 5:00 p.m. and
00:12:22
◼
►
you would have a martini on the deck
00:12:24
◼
►
yeah and then I go and have a martini on
00:12:25
◼
►
the deck exactly but I found that that
00:12:29
◼
►
one little change had the biggest impact
00:12:31
◼
►
on my work-life balance like before that
00:12:34
◼
►
it was kind of this squishy wishy washy
00:12:35
◼
►
like oh but if I'm like in the zone and
00:12:38
◼
►
I really want to keep going or that's me
00:12:41
◼
►
whatever it's like you have this kind of
00:12:43
◼
►
this feeling of like well it's just you
00:12:46
◼
►
know I will work until I'm finished type
00:12:48
◼
►
of concept and the reality is like I'm
00:12:49
◼
►
never finished there's never a perfect
00:12:52
◼
►
opportunity to be like yes I have
00:12:55
◼
►
exactly finished tied this function up
00:12:57
◼
►
in a bow and now I'm gonna go upstairs
00:12:59
◼
►
and have dinner and you know be with my
00:13:01
◼
►
and so we ended up deciding like and I
00:13:03
◼
►
would drive my wife crazy - when it's
00:13:05
◼
►
like she has no idea when I'm gonna be
00:13:06
◼
►
home when I'm gonna when went what time
00:13:08
◼
►
we should do dinner what time the kids
00:13:09
◼
►
should we expect you know their daddy to
00:13:11
◼
►
be back yeah like a three-hour window
00:13:12
◼
►
like I'm gonna be doing something
00:13:13
◼
►
between 5:00 and 9:00 whenever my brain
00:13:16
◼
►
turn finally turns off yeah and so we
00:13:19
◼
►
found this like you know what it's like
00:13:21
◼
►
need to have a regular schedule and so
00:13:22
◼
►
like I come downstairs which we'll get
00:13:25
◼
►
to in a minute about workspace but like
00:13:26
◼
►
I come downstairs to start work sometime
00:13:29
◼
►
like is much more squishy like sometime
00:13:30
◼
►
between maybe 8:30 and 9:30 depending on
00:13:35
◼
►
what's going on in the morning but I
00:13:37
◼
►
always finished exactly 5:00 and that
00:13:40
◼
►
really helps to be able to say like if
00:13:43
◼
►
it's past five o'clock I'm not working
00:13:44
◼
►
unless obviously the units are like the
00:13:46
◼
►
exceptional situation of like you know
00:13:49
◼
►
some server explodes and I really need
00:13:51
◼
►
to go and do something but if beyond the
00:13:54
◼
►
the extraordinary search your
00:13:56
◼
►
circumstance that's what I do and for me
00:13:59
◼
►
that was really helpful to say like if
00:14:00
◼
►
it's past 5:00 I'm off work like I don't
00:14:03
◼
►
really need to worry about work I'll
00:14:04
◼
►
worry about it the next day and if it's
00:14:06
◼
►
before 5:00 I should be working like it
00:14:09
◼
►
helps on the other side if well if
00:14:10
◼
►
saying if things seem like they're going
00:14:12
◼
►
a bit tricky with you know or like I
00:14:14
◼
►
just want to be with my family or
00:14:15
◼
►
whatever it's like nope it's not five
00:14:17
◼
►
o'clock and I can look forward to it in
00:14:19
◼
►
that sense and then once I'm past it I
00:14:21
◼
►
can say nope that's like that's the
00:14:22
◼
►
firewall against it on the other side
00:14:24
◼
►
and having that kind of regular schedule
00:14:26
◼
►
like when I'm safe are there something
00:14:27
◼
►
magical about five o'clock like it could
00:14:29
◼
►
be any time but having a schedule that
00:14:31
◼
►
when I'm working I'm working and when
00:14:33
◼
►
I'm not I'm not has been the only thing
00:14:35
◼
►
that was been probably the biggest
00:14:36
◼
►
impact in our ability to kind of stay
00:14:39
◼
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stay sane around having complete
00:14:41
◼
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flexibility about our schedule all right
00:14:44
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we are sponsored this week by our
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corporate intranet at one of those
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can be right at your desk and you know
00:15:38
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maintaining your healthy work-life
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balance it's your choice now
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igloo is well-designed compared to most
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intranets that are usually you know
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these horrible things designed by nobody
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in the 90s if you Internet's are just
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drag-and-drop widget editor to do all
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this super easily now with with our
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mobile lives people are increasingly
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bringing in outside apps into companies
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you so much to a blue for supporting
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under the radar and all of real afm so
00:16:50
◼
►
one thing i wanted to extend on a little
00:16:52
◼
►
bit is sort of the extension of the
00:16:54
◼
►
concept of having a defined work
00:16:55
◼
►
schedule that separates your work life
00:16:58
◼
►
and your physical life is that works in
00:17:01
◼
►
some ways but you also what i found it
00:17:04
◼
►
only really works when you're able to
00:17:06
◼
►
physically separate yourself as well
00:17:07
◼
►
from the place that you go to work and
00:17:10
◼
►
the place that you go to not work and
00:17:13
◼
►
i've de tried all manner of things to do
00:17:16
◼
►
this and I when I first went independent
00:17:18
◼
►
it was kind of really are the house
00:17:21
◼
►
where we lived in didn't really work for
00:17:23
◼
►
this where it was a split foyer house
00:17:26
◼
►
and so they're only two levels and so no
00:17:28
◼
►
matter what there was always something
00:17:30
◼
►
that wasn't my office and next door to
00:17:32
◼
►
me no matter where I went and went in
00:17:34
◼
►
the house and for a while I actually got
00:17:37
◼
►
office space outside of my house so that
00:17:39
◼
►
I could do this like even though I could
00:17:41
◼
►
work from home I found like a teeny
00:17:43
◼
►
little like office down the road from
00:17:45
◼
►
where I live and I'd go there
00:17:47
◼
►
because in now I've thankfully we've
00:17:49
◼
►
changed houses and I have a place that's
00:17:51
◼
►
like I'm in this office way off in the
00:17:53
◼
►
corner in the basement that there's
00:17:55
◼
►
nothing else around the board I found is
00:17:58
◼
►
if I don't have a separate place to go
00:18:00
◼
►
like if I'm working in working my
00:18:02
◼
►
bedroom or at the kitchen table or
00:18:04
◼
►
something like that
00:18:05
◼
►
I was never it's so hard to keep your
00:18:10
◼
►
mind focused on the thing that you're
00:18:12
◼
►
supposed to be focused on and it's the
00:18:15
◼
►
one of the things that I've think iff is
00:18:17
◼
►
like give advice to somebody who is
00:18:19
◼
►
starting out working from home going
00:18:21
◼
►
independent becoming a consultant any of
00:18:23
◼
►
these things like find a place somewhere
00:18:25
◼
►
in your house that you only use for work
00:18:28
◼
►
miss goes when you're there it's like
00:18:30
◼
►
okay I'm here I've got all my it's all
00:18:32
◼
►
set up exactly how I like it for working
00:18:34
◼
►
and I'm working and when I leave there's
00:18:37
◼
►
I don't come back here unless I'm
00:18:39
◼
►
working you know it's like I don't sit
00:18:41
◼
►
here and go through the family pictures
00:18:42
◼
►
and organize them into albums on my work
00:18:44
◼
►
computer I do that on another place like
00:18:47
◼
►
all in any of the things that I needed
00:18:49
◼
►
to do aren't done at my work at my
00:18:51
◼
►
workstation my workstation is for
00:18:52
◼
►
working and that helps both me to be
00:18:57
◼
►
focused and also if you have children or
00:18:59
◼
►
other people in your house who are going
00:19:02
◼
►
to want your attention it means that you
00:19:04
◼
►
can fight they should have has this
00:19:05
◼
►
great benefit of being able to say like
00:19:07
◼
►
no no it's like he's in is like daddy's
00:19:09
◼
►
in the office don't bother him and you
00:19:12
◼
►
know obviously there's exception to that
00:19:13
◼
►
if something awesome and cool that's
00:19:14
◼
►
going on in the house and that I really
00:19:15
◼
►
want to know about and I should know
00:19:16
◼
►
about it's awesome that I'm available
00:19:18
◼
►
and here to see it but in by and large
00:19:21
◼
►
it's very easy to have that obvious vis
00:19:25
◼
►
visual separation it's like nope he's
00:19:27
◼
►
not here he's at work and then I come
00:19:30
◼
►
home and my wife and I always joke about
00:19:32
◼
►
this too because we'll actually use the
00:19:34
◼
►
terms like are you home like if I all go
00:19:37
◼
►
up I go upstairs at 4:00 like at 4:00
00:19:39
◼
►
o'clock to get a snack or something
00:19:41
◼
►
it's like are you home or are you not
00:19:43
◼
►
and it's like I actually I'm not home
00:19:45
◼
►
even though obviously I'm standing in
00:19:47
◼
►
Mike I'm standing in the kitchen in our
00:19:48
◼
►
in my home but it's like nope I'm not
00:19:50
◼
►
home I just need to needed to grab
00:19:52
◼
►
something and then I go back to work and
00:19:54
◼
►
it's like it's as though like I've left
00:19:55
◼
►
like I've got in the car my commute
00:19:57
◼
►
rather you in a car and driving down the
00:19:59
◼
►
road now he's walking down the stairs
00:20:01
◼
►
but I still have one that there's still
00:20:04
◼
►
something separate physically between my
00:20:06
◼
►
work and my not work that's really good
00:20:08
◼
►
I like that a lot they just gotta find a
00:20:10
◼
►
place in your house that you can do that
00:20:11
◼
►
yeah well in our unfinished basement
00:20:14
◼
►
maybe or our hot attic that should be
00:20:16
◼
►
good perfect well we'll figure something
00:20:18
◼
►
out I'll just put up a giant scream in
00:20:21
◼
►
the middle in the middle the room yeah
00:20:24
◼
►
and obviously yeah like everyone's
00:20:26
◼
►
houses are different denser like weather
00:20:27
◼
►
exactly how much you can do that and how
00:20:29
◼
►
practical it is to do it but it's it's
00:20:32
◼
►
just one of those things that it's all
00:20:33
◼
►
about trying to make it like make a
00:20:36
◼
►
clear line between when you're working
00:20:38
◼
►
and when you're not working and so the
00:20:39
◼
►
more that you can make the place that
00:20:41
◼
►
you work a place that he only is a place
00:20:43
◼
►
that you work like the better that will
00:20:45
◼
►
be and it's like trying to do weird
00:20:48
◼
►
sometimes it is feels a bit silly but
00:20:50
◼
►
like it's what I try and do like we have
00:20:53
◼
►
an upstairs office that we do other like
00:20:54
◼
►
other like homework things with rather
00:20:57
◼
►
than doing them in the same place that I
00:20:59
◼
►
do regular work which you know his works
00:21:02
◼
►
that works for us to have a bit you know
00:21:03
◼
►
in about two rooms that we can do that
00:21:05
◼
►
with but even if you don't have these X
00:21:08
◼
►
pace it's just kind of something to be
00:21:09
◼
►
aware of yeah definitely the other thing
00:21:12
◼
►
that I think is helpful to think about
00:21:15
◼
►
with work/life balance like taking a
00:21:16
◼
►
step back so like things like making
00:21:18
◼
►
good boundaries physically between your
00:21:19
◼
►
work in terms of your daily schedule in
00:21:22
◼
►
terms of your work space are helpful but
00:21:25
◼
►
there are also things that are kind of
00:21:27
◼
►
like there the the tactical day-in
00:21:29
◼
►
day-out kind of things that you can do
00:21:31
◼
►
but if you really want to have a good
00:21:33
◼
►
work-life balance I think you kind of
00:21:35
◼
►
also have to take the step back and look
00:21:37
◼
►
at it and say like what are the things
00:21:39
◼
►
that are constraining my ability to have
00:21:41
◼
►
a good work-life balance and I think
00:21:44
◼
►
about in like making sure I'm making
00:21:45
◼
►
conscious choices about those things
00:21:47
◼
►
like one thing I always remember is when
00:21:49
◼
►
I used to do consulting and this
00:21:51
◼
►
probably applies mostly to consulting
00:21:52
◼
►
but applies to a lot of things is when
00:21:55
◼
►
I'd start out I would respect my you
00:21:58
◼
►
like work email all the day like all the
00:22:00
◼
►
time so essentially if I'm awake I'll
00:22:02
◼
►
probably have checked my email in the
00:22:04
◼
►
last 20 minutes and I would respond to
00:22:08
◼
►
clients who D mail me something at
00:22:10
◼
►
whenever I saw it you know they would
00:22:12
◼
►
send me an email hey did you get a
00:22:14
◼
►
check this thing out or you know fix
00:22:16
◼
►
this thing and I'd respond it and I'd do
00:22:18
◼
►
it on the weekend late at night early in
00:22:20
◼
►
the morning if your first thing I when I
00:22:22
◼
►
wake up I pick up my phone and I'd
00:22:23
◼
►
respond and what I realized though is
00:22:26
◼
►
that I'm competin for for my clients
00:22:30
◼
►
because now they're as soon as you do it
00:22:32
◼
►
once they'll expect you to always do it
00:22:35
◼
►
and if you don't that can become like
00:22:38
◼
►
weird strangely problematic where
00:22:40
◼
►
they're like oh I emailed you and you
00:22:42
◼
►
didn't respond it's like yeah you
00:22:43
◼
►
emailed me at 8 o'clock on a Friday I
00:22:46
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didn't respond because I'm not working
00:22:48
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but if you don't actually follow through
00:22:51
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with that you have this terrible
00:22:52
◼
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boundary problem and like these you're
00:22:55
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making these commitments that you may
00:22:57
◼
►
not consciously be making to being
00:22:59
◼
►
available at times that you really
00:23:01
◼
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shouldn't be available and then that may
00:23:03
◼
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also like that might make certain people
00:23:05
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not able to work with you and I think
00:23:09
◼
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you have to choose that like when you're
00:23:11
◼
►
choosing what you're working on the
00:23:13
◼
►
people you choose to work for or with
00:23:15
◼
►
matter just as much as anything else
00:23:18
◼
►
you're deciding because like certain
00:23:20
◼
►
like certain employers will want you to
00:23:22
◼
►
be a workaholic and we want you to be
00:23:23
◼
►
24/7 on-call for email even if they
00:23:26
◼
►
don't technically say that that will be
00:23:28
◼
►
what they expect and it will seem it'll
00:23:29
◼
►
look bad if you don't do that whereas
00:23:32
◼
►
other employers or clients are more
00:23:35
◼
►
healthy themselves with their work-life
00:23:36
◼
►
balance and and they will you know they
00:23:39
◼
►
will be okay if you don't answer a
00:23:41
◼
►
Friday night email until Monday morning
00:23:43
◼
►
you know and and it's important if you
00:23:45
◼
►
can find those people and choose to work
00:23:48
◼
►
with them and you know it really matters
00:23:51
◼
►
a lot who you work for who your clients
00:23:53
◼
►
are yeah and and it's and then in
00:23:55
◼
►
addition to man mattering who they are
00:23:58
◼
►
it's like that you have to decide these
00:23:59
◼
►
things like it feels silly at first like
00:24:02
◼
►
I remember the first time I summer never
00:24:04
◼
►
ate but I realized that I was doing this
00:24:05
◼
►
and I would see like I would want to hit
00:24:08
◼
►
reply and start composing an email back
00:24:11
◼
►
and they're like wait it's nine o'clock
00:24:13
◼
►
on a Friday I should not do this and
00:24:15
◼
►
sometimes I'd like write it out but just
00:24:16
◼
►
leave it in drafts and at 9 a.m. on
00:24:19
◼
►
Monday morning I just go into my draft
00:24:22
◼
►
and I'd sit there and send them all
00:24:23
◼
►
which is if it's like is it really it
00:24:26
◼
►
was like a good like a baby
00:24:28
◼
►
step towards not actually checking it in
00:24:30
◼
►
the first place but giving the illusion
00:24:32
◼
►
of health via exactly but it at least
00:24:34
◼
►
the very least I was setting their
00:24:36
◼
►
expectation that I wasn't available
00:24:37
◼
►
right you like I always remember also
00:24:40
◼
►
with consulting you'd have these weird
00:24:41
◼
►
things where you start having like email
00:24:43
◼
►
conversations back and forth with your
00:24:45
◼
►
client at strange hours because you send
00:24:48
◼
►
them something and then they are sitting
00:24:50
◼
►
at their computer to having poor
00:24:51
◼
►
work-life balance and they were spawning
00:24:53
◼
►
back as you go back and forth and it's
00:24:55
◼
►
like you're having this conversation in
00:24:56
◼
►
at a time when you like you would never
00:24:59
◼
►
schedule a call with your client at that
00:25:00
◼
►
time you'd never think like oh this is
00:25:02
◼
►
like 10 o'clock on the weekend this is a
00:25:04
◼
►
perfect time for us to have a chat but
00:25:06
◼
►
it's like this little trap that just
00:25:08
◼
►
like sucks you in and then you're kind
00:25:11
◼
►
of you have to work really hard to break
00:25:13
◼
►
that pattern and get out of that cycle
00:25:15
◼
►
and then lastly the other boss sort of
00:25:20
◼
►
like taking a step back thing that I
00:25:21
◼
►
think you can do to improve your
00:25:22
◼
►
work-life balance is to look at your
00:25:26
◼
►
business and see if there are places
00:25:29
◼
►
that you can reduce the degree to which
00:25:32
◼
►
your revenue is directly tied to your
00:25:35
◼
►
time which in some ways is maybe an
00:25:37
◼
►
obvious thing to say like it's like if
00:25:38
◼
►
you can make money without doing
00:25:40
◼
►
anything that's better this is the
00:25:42
◼
►
promise of like every back page ad in a
00:25:44
◼
►
crappy magazine like make money while
00:25:46
◼
►
exactly but in a not sketchy way like
00:25:50
◼
►
looking at your business and saying like
00:25:52
◼
►
the biggest things that are going to get
00:25:54
◼
►
in the way of you having a productive
00:25:56
◼
►
work-life balance are things where you
00:25:59
◼
►
don't have control like you you don't
00:26:01
◼
►
have the control over your time in the
00:26:03
◼
►
same way like if you have a K perfectly
00:26:05
◼
►
and sort of did split between your time
00:26:10
◼
►
and your money then you can choose
00:26:13
◼
►
exactly how you want your day to go
00:26:14
◼
►
because your time isn't the thing that
00:26:17
◼
►
you're selling it that isn't the
00:26:18
◼
►
important thing you know so like if you
00:26:20
◼
►
look at you if you look at a business
00:26:21
◼
►
like I think conceptually most
00:26:23
◼
►
businesses kind of fall into two
00:26:24
◼
►
categories there's kind of like prepaid
00:26:26
◼
►
work you know things like consulting or
00:26:29
◼
►
even this podcast where we get paid by a
00:26:32
◼
►
sponsor for the episode but we have to
00:26:35
◼
►
make the episode and then once we've
00:26:36
◼
►
made it we get no more benefit from it
00:26:39
◼
►
two things that are kind of like post
00:26:41
◼
►
so like a product or a subscription or
00:26:43
◼
►
if you have a retainer in consulting
00:26:46
◼
►
like those types of things where you're
00:26:47
◼
►
making money without you having to do
00:26:49
◼
►
something directly usually it's because
00:26:52
◼
►
you've done something else in the past
00:26:53
◼
►
but in the present you know you're kind
00:26:56
◼
►
of living off the interest from and the
00:26:59
◼
►
last things and this was something that
00:27:02
◼
►
was the bit like when I made the shift
00:27:05
◼
►
from consulting to products which is now
00:27:08
◼
►
what I do almost 100% essentially of my
00:27:11
◼
►
of my income is from products is it I
00:27:15
◼
►
wanted to do it because I felt like if I
00:27:18
◼
►
didn't I wouldn't have control over my
00:27:20
◼
►
time because it was always going to be
00:27:22
◼
►
beholden to somebody else and so I had
00:27:24
◼
►
to look at my business and say you know
00:27:26
◼
►
what if I can do this if I can keep
00:27:27
◼
►
pulling even if it's just 20% of my
00:27:31
◼
►
businesses is you know is coming from
00:27:34
◼
►
something other than my time I'm gonna
00:27:36
◼
►
be able to make Bank my work-life
00:27:38
◼
►
20% better or at least have the
00:27:39
◼
►
opportunity to make it 20% better like
00:27:42
◼
►
if I don't follow through at that point
00:27:43
◼
►
like that's on me
00:27:45
◼
►
if I at this point have complete control
00:27:47
◼
►
over my time and I have a word bad
00:27:48
◼
►
work-life balance like there's no one to
00:27:50
◼
►
blame but myself I can't blame my boss I
00:27:52
◼
►
can't blame my clients I can only blame
00:27:54
◼
►
me but on the flip side I have the
00:27:56
◼
►
ability to control that and so looking
00:27:59
◼
►
at your business or looking at the way
00:28:00
◼
►
that you're structuring how you work
00:28:02
◼
►
such that you have you can break those
00:28:05
◼
►
ties is like sort of like the little
00:28:07
◼
►
catalyst that allows you to make any of
00:28:09
◼
►
the changes that we've talked about in
00:28:12
◼
►
this episode because if you had if you
00:28:14
◼
►
don't have that control then you can't
00:28:16
◼
►
change anything in the first you know
00:28:18
◼
►
anyway and so you're kind of stuck yeah
00:28:20
◼
►
I think that separating your your income
00:28:23
◼
►
and your business health from your time
00:28:26
◼
►
spent is obviously like that that is the
00:28:28
◼
►
Holy Grail but it isn't that
00:28:29
◼
►
unachievable like it's actually very
00:28:31
◼
►
doable and it might take a while and it
00:28:34
◼
►
might not be a hundred percent of of
00:28:36
◼
►
your income being separated out that way
00:28:37
◼
►
and being independent of your time and
00:28:39
◼
►
and you know you do have to still work
00:28:41
◼
►
on it occasionally like you can't like
00:28:42
◼
►
neglect things forever but anything that
00:28:45
◼
►
you can do to like build up you know a
00:28:47
◼
►
back catalogue of things that pay you or
00:28:49
◼
►
build up recurring revenue streams or
00:28:51
◼
►
things that are yeah things that are
00:28:53
◼
►
decoupled at all
00:28:54
◼
►
you will benefit from significantly
00:28:55
◼
►
exactly and it took me four and a half
00:28:58
◼
►
five years to be able to stop doing
00:29:01
◼
►
consulting like but it was a conscious
00:29:04
◼
►
choice that this is where I'm getting
00:29:05
◼
►
I'm heading I'm pointing my business in
00:29:07
◼
►
this direction and that sort of because
00:29:09
◼
►
at the end of it I like the result and
00:29:11
◼
►
so that made the work to get there
00:29:13
◼
►
worthwhile excellent alright thank you
00:29:16
◼
►
for listening everybody and it's all the
00:29:18
◼
►
time we have so we will talk to you next