Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I am

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so for this

00:00:10 ◼   ► week's topic I thought it might if we

00:00:13 ◼   ► might respond a little bit and possibly

00:00:16 ◼   ► disagree a little bit with with a topic

00:00:18 ◼   ► that our friends over at release notes

00:00:20 ◼   ► covered about a week ago in release

00:00:22 ◼   ► notes episode number 140 called like

00:00:24 ◼   ► watching paint dry and release notes is

00:00:27 ◼   ► a very good podcast that I highly

00:00:28 ◼   ► recommend for developers who listen to

00:00:31 ◼   ► this should also listen to that they

00:00:32 ◼   ► cover a lot more a lot of like the

00:00:34 ◼   ► business stuff they their motto is like

00:00:35 ◼   ► everything but the code and so

00:00:38 ◼   ► definitely love that show I've listened

00:00:39 ◼   ► to it for a while they have a conference

00:00:41 ◼   ► love that show love those guys and so

00:00:43 ◼   ► this episode they they did was about

00:00:46 ◼   ► basically as their they both have small

00:00:50 ◼   ► software companies Charles Perry has has

00:00:53 ◼   ► a company that recently launched an app

00:00:55 ◼   ► called meta tax which is for tax for tax

00:00:58 ◼   ► preparing professionals like not for you

00:01:00 ◼   ► to do your taxes but like for your

00:01:01 ◼   ► accountant to to reference while they do

00:01:03 ◼   ► taxes for lots of people and then Joe's

00:01:06 ◼   ► company bombing brain makes tools for

00:01:08 ◼   ► pro audio and video producers and they

00:01:12 ◼   ► so they both have these these companies

00:01:14 ◼   ► that kind of appeal to like you know pro

00:01:16 ◼   ► users of some kind and these are not

00:01:18 ◼   ► mass consumer apps and this episode they

00:01:20 ◼   ► did number 140 was was kind of about how

00:01:24 ◼   ► they they both are like taking their

00:01:26 ◼   ► their corporate voice more seriously now

00:01:29 ◼   ► like kind of dropping some of the some

00:01:31 ◼   ► of the the pretense of like being indie

00:01:33 ◼   ► and making themselves appear like a

00:01:36 ◼   ► serious company so like for example

00:01:38 ◼   ► using we instead of I and you know kind

00:01:41 ◼   ► of separating like their personal blogs

00:01:43 ◼   ► even if it's about business that kind of

00:01:45 ◼   ► separating their personal names and

00:01:48 ◼   ► blogs from the company and not having

00:01:49 ◼   ► like a company blog anymore of like them

00:01:51 ◼   ► complaining about the app store stuff

00:01:52 ◼   ► like that like separating those out so

00:01:54 ◼   ► that their companies appear to be more

00:01:57 ◼   ► professional you know kind of more like

00:01:59 ◼   ► other big companies do where you tend to

00:02:02 ◼   ► have like this kind of corporate almost

00:02:05 ◼   ► non voice like it's not it's kind of a

00:02:07 ◼   ► void of personality like there's not

00:02:10 ◼   ► you're not like the the personality of

00:02:12 ◼   ► an individual you're

00:02:13 ◼   ► projecting the image of like a serious

00:02:15 ◼   ► company and I think it's worth

00:02:18 ◼   ► discussing kind of the pros and cons of

00:02:20 ◼   ► that decision of that kind of approach

00:02:22 ◼   ► of like whether whether you should be

00:02:24 ◼   ► you know if you're an indie developer or

00:02:27 ◼   ► like us like whether you should just

00:02:28 ◼   ► kind of own that and and show

00:02:30 ◼   ► personality in your apps and just use

00:02:32 ◼   ► the pronoun I instead of we and things

00:02:34 ◼   ► like that or whether you should appeal

00:02:36 ◼   ► appeal to people's more conservative

00:02:39 ◼   ► sides and and appear to be this this

00:02:42 ◼   ► bigger company yeah what have you found

00:02:44 ◼   ► in this game this regard David so when I

00:02:46 ◼   ► first started doing development price

00:02:49 ◼   ► set like seven ish years ago like as an

00:02:52 ◼   ► independent I remember going through

00:02:54 ◼   ► this and trying to decide well how I

00:02:55 ◼   ► wanted to do it I think in the early

00:02:56 ◼   ► days of my business I would always use

00:02:59 ◼   ► like you always talk about it's like we

00:03:00 ◼   ► do this we do that to try and appear big

00:03:02 ◼   ► like refer to the company like almost

00:03:04 ◼   ► like as its own it like as a third

00:03:06 ◼   ► person and this these types of things

00:03:09 ◼   ► and I think I was doing that week almost

00:03:11 ◼   ► like to avoid like the imposter syndrome

00:03:13 ◼   ► kind of stuff where it's like I wanted

00:03:15 ◼   ► to hate to feel like I was a real

00:03:17 ◼   ► company not just a guy but I think

00:03:20 ◼   ► recently I've very strongly gone in the

00:03:22 ◼   ► other direction with that and more and

00:03:25 ◼   ► more I do everything and make it quite

00:03:28 ◼   ► clear that it's like I'm a person I'm an

00:03:31 ◼   ► individual who makes an app like most of

00:03:33 ◼   ► my apps websites are now like hosted off

00:03:36 ◼   ► my own personal site you know David -

00:03:37 ◼   ► myths org is like where people would go

00:03:39 ◼   ► to find my apps like that's linked to

00:03:41 ◼   ► and is shown in the app store

00:03:44 ◼   ► description for my app in some of my

00:03:46 ◼   ► apps even like I'll have little notes

00:03:47 ◼   ► that say like you know this app was made

00:03:49 ◼   ► by David Smith a independent developer

00:03:52 ◼   ► and herndon like thank you for

00:03:54 ◼   ► supporting it or those types of comes

00:03:56 ◼   ► like I'm trying to make it very clear

00:03:58 ◼   ► that's where I went and for me I

00:04:01 ◼   ► switched around

00:04:02 ◼   ► mostly because I made peace with the

00:04:05 ◼   ► fact that my goal is not to be a big

00:04:08 ◼   ► company my goal is not to ever grow

00:04:11 ◼   ► because like there's something to be

00:04:13 ◼   ► said maybe for like faking it until you

00:04:15 ◼   ► make it like if your goal is to be a big

00:04:17 ◼   ► company to have lots of employees to

00:04:19 ◼   ► have a big presence and so on to like

00:04:22 ◼   ► say okay I'm going to pretend like I'm

00:04:24 ◼   ► one of those because that's what my goal

00:04:26 ◼   ► is

00:04:27 ◼   ► to become but once I just really made

00:04:30 ◼   ► peace with the fact that was not my goal

00:04:32 ◼   ► I wasn't like faking until I make it

00:04:33 ◼   ► like I'd already made it I'm the one

00:04:35 ◼   ► person shop that I kind of like being I

00:04:38 ◼   ► was like then it's just kind of like

00:04:40 ◼   ► silly pretense to do and in many ways it

00:04:43 ◼   ► really it I was losing some of the

00:04:45 ◼   ► opportunities that I could probably

00:04:47 ◼   ► otherwise get by appealing to people

00:04:49 ◼   ► more personally like it's it's a funny

00:04:52 ◼   ► thing like you'll get a customer service

00:04:53 ◼   ► response to somebody and they're kind of

00:04:55 ◼   ► really mean and belligerent and kind of

00:04:57 ◼   ► grumpy at you and you ruin you respond

00:05:00 ◼   ► personally like in a more kind of like

00:05:02 ◼   ► it's like hi this is like I don't know

00:05:03 ◼   ► what you're expecting like I'm a person

00:05:05 ◼   ► very often I'll get the like they just

00:05:08 ◼   ► sort of calmed down like oh I'm so sorry

00:05:10 ◼   ► like I'm used to yelling at customer

00:05:11 ◼   ► service representatives of big faceless

00:05:13 ◼   ► corporations but it feels a little bit

00:05:16 ◼   ► more awkward when they're just like

00:05:18 ◼   ► yelling at you know yelling at a person

00:05:19 ◼   ► and so I'm sorry I found I get a lot of

00:05:21 ◼   ► benefit from just saying like hey I'm

00:05:23 ◼   ► one person and you know people like that

00:05:25 ◼   ► it seems yeah I mean because III think

00:05:28 ◼   ► like if you if you act like a big

00:05:32 ◼   ► company people will treat you like a big

00:05:34 ◼   ► company exactly and and that there are

00:05:37 ◼   ► there are pros and cons to that like you

00:05:39 ◼   ► know Charles Perry's Metta tax software

00:05:41 ◼   ► for tax preparers like if you're if

00:05:44 ◼   ► you're appealing to a more like a more

00:05:47 ◼   ► narrow professional market like that and

00:05:49 ◼   ► charging I think he charms like a

00:05:50 ◼   ► hundred bucks for something like that

00:05:51 ◼   ► you know that's this is like you know

00:05:54 ◼   ► pro software at a decent price you know

00:05:57 ◼   ► this is not consumer level stuff in that

00:06:00 ◼   ► kind of context I think showing the

00:06:03 ◼   ► personality of like being one person you

00:06:06 ◼   ► know and we'll get into like kind of

00:06:08 ◼   ► like personality and attitude also in a

00:06:10 ◼   ► bit which i think is also part of this

00:06:11 ◼   ► but being like the the hi I'm going to

00:06:13 ◼   ► dependent person kind of thing in that

00:06:15 ◼   ► kind of context could be a downside you

00:06:17 ◼   ► kind of like it maybe those buyers might

00:06:19 ◼   ► want the appearance of a big serious

00:06:21 ◼   ► company like the or that just might be

00:06:22 ◼   ► the norm in that field but when you're

00:06:25 ◼   ► doing something like what you and I do

00:06:26 ◼   ► which is consumer apps where you know

00:06:29 ◼   ► you like you you know we have apps that

00:06:31 ◼   ► are not going to be bought for a hundred

00:06:33 ◼   ► dollars by professionals getting their

00:06:36 ◼   ► job done we have apps that people buy

00:06:37 ◼   ► because like kind of for fun or for

00:06:39 ◼   ► entertainment or

00:06:40 ◼   ► for for you know more more mass-market

00:06:44 ◼   ► casual use and I feel like in that area

00:06:49 ◼   ► there is not much of an upside to

00:06:52 ◼   ► appearing to be a big company whereas

00:06:55 ◼   ► you know so there are areas where that

00:06:56 ◼   ► is an upside you know like like Charles

00:06:58 ◼   ► uh like meta tax there but but I don't

00:07:00 ◼   ► think that the kind of apps that we do

00:07:02 ◼   ► are those areas so again is this is one

00:07:05 ◼   ► of those things where the answer is it

00:07:07 ◼   ► depends and and different things work

00:07:09 ◼   ► for different people but I think it's

00:07:11 ◼   ► important to recognize where your target

00:07:14 ◼   ► market really is what kind of accurately

00:07:16 ◼   ► making and what people think of you and

00:07:18 ◼   ► what people want to think of you before

00:07:21 ◼   ► you decide kind of which of these

00:07:22 ◼   ► approaches to take because like like you

00:07:24 ◼   ► know what I do an overcast is also it's

00:07:27 ◼   ► completely the I'm one person approach

00:07:30 ◼   ► in in like the support page and

00:07:32 ◼   ► everything it in order to try to defuse

00:07:34 ◼   ► people's anger into what they perceive

00:07:37 ◼   ► as like some kind of chatbot for a big

00:07:39 ◼   ► company that will never get read because

00:07:41 ◼   ► they're angry at most big companies

00:07:42 ◼   ► because most big companies don't help

00:07:44 ◼   ► them right in my feedback form in the

00:07:47 ◼   ► app I say hi I'm one person and before

00:07:51 ◼   ► they can even get the email address

00:07:53 ◼   ► there's a there's this like two sentence

00:07:54 ◼   ► thing up top the debate basically says

00:07:56 ◼   ► that I I'm just one person and also I

00:08:00 ◼   ► don't have time to respond to most

00:08:01 ◼   ► emails and so that immediately diffuses

00:08:04 ◼   ► a lot of anger they might have towards

00:08:07 ◼   ► like I can't get this to work your

00:08:09 ◼   ► company sucks and and I really don't get

00:08:12 ◼   ► a lot of those emails like I even with

00:08:14 ◼   ► Instapaper I got way more because I was

00:08:15 ◼   ► I was less heavy handed with instapaper

00:08:17 ◼   ► about about the kind of like I'm one

00:08:19 ◼   ► person approach with overcast I went

00:08:21 ◼   ► very heavy-handed on that and the emails

00:08:24 ◼   ► I get are generally extremely civil

00:08:26 ◼   ► extremely nice I hardly ever get you

00:08:29 ◼   ► know anger at all and also because I say

00:08:33 ◼   ► right there in the feedback form I don't

00:08:35 ◼   ► have time to respond to most emails I'm

00:08:36 ◼   ► sorry that sets expectations for support

00:08:40 ◼   ► also because you know a lot of people

00:08:41 ◼   ► you know if if they think you're a big

00:08:43 ◼   ► company they're going to expect maybe

00:08:45 ◼   ► not helpful support but they will expect

00:08:49 ◼   ► fast support responses and because you

00:08:52 ◼   ► know that because that's what most big

00:08:53 ◼   ► companies you can

00:08:54 ◼   ► you can contact them and you can get

00:08:56 ◼   ► support of some kind and it might not be

00:08:58 ◼   ► very helpful but you will get a person

00:09:01 ◼   ► who responds to you soon and if they

00:09:04 ◼   ► don't get that and they think you're big

00:09:05 ◼   ► company they get mad if you're a small

00:09:09 ◼   ► if you're one person and you say I'm one

00:09:11 ◼   ► person and also sorry I can't really

00:09:14 ◼   ► respond to you most of the time and then

00:09:16 ◼   ► you don't respond to them I feel like

00:09:18 ◼   ► that's that actually leaves them feeling

00:09:20 ◼   ► Lessing then then if they if they go if

00:09:24 ◼   ► they think you're a big company and they

00:09:26 ◼   ► email you and they don't get a response

00:09:28 ◼   ► have you have you I mean I know you

00:09:30 ◼   ► actually do support cuz you're a good

00:09:31 ◼   ► person but I mean I think there's

00:09:34 ◼   ► something to that for sure like it

00:09:36 ◼   ► there's a bigger person know there's

00:09:39 ◼   ► something to be said for setting

00:09:41 ◼   ► expectations appropriately for what

00:09:44 ◼   ► you're trying to like like project and I

00:09:48 ◼   ► mean I remember I've heard people the

00:09:50 ◼   ► funny thing alpha-1 sometimes get it

00:09:51 ◼   ► when people who ask me like what's my

00:09:52 ◼   ► support phone number and like it's like

00:09:56 ◼   ► you know which is like a reasonable in

00:09:57 ◼   ► some ways a reasonable a reasonable

00:09:58 ◼   ► question like if you were a big company

00:10:01 ◼   ► like if I was a big software company

00:10:03 ◼   ► like I would imagine I can call someone

00:10:06 ◼   ► at Microsoft to get support like I'm

00:10:08 ◼   ► sure there's no hundred number maybe I

00:10:09 ◼   ► mean I wouldn't surprise me but they're

00:10:12 ◼   ► like I don't think like but you know

00:10:14 ◼   ► what are you gonna call like they're

00:10:15 ◼   ► gonna like call my own phone number like

00:10:17 ◼   ► like where is how is that gonna work

00:10:19 ◼   ► it's like it's trying to set

00:10:21 ◼   ► expectations because maybe like at its

00:10:24 ◼   ► core so much of this it's just about

00:10:25 ◼   ► like honesty maybe it's like it's like

00:10:28 ◼   ► this is who I am this is what we're like

00:10:30 ◼   ► what I'm the level of support I provide

00:10:33 ◼   ► this is the types of apps I do and I'm

00:10:35 ◼   ► just like being transparent about that

00:10:36 ◼   ► and so like with support when I say like

00:10:39 ◼   ► it's like you can email sometimes I mean

00:10:41 ◼   ► I have I hire someone who does a lot of

00:10:43 ◼   ► deals like the front level of support

00:10:45 ◼   ► for me so that my response or like the

00:10:47 ◼   ► response time is pretty good in that

00:10:48 ◼   ► regard but every now and then like I'll

00:10:50 ◼   ► get people who email me directly just

00:10:52 ◼   ► like they find my contact information or

00:10:53 ◼   ► though you know sent that reply me on

00:10:56 ◼   ► Twitter or something like that and I'm

00:10:58 ◼   ► less responsive there but I don't I

00:11:00 ◼   ► haven't gotten a lot of negativity

00:11:02 ◼   ► around that because I think they know

00:11:04 ◼   ► what they're doing like they're they

00:11:05 ◼   ► know that they're contacting me as the

00:11:07 ◼   ► person

00:11:08 ◼   ► not me as the company or not like you

00:11:11 ◼   ► know they're not contacting pedometer

00:11:12 ◼   ► plus plus they're contacting David Smith

00:11:14 ◼   ► and the expectations I think you have

00:11:17 ◼   ► for when you like sort of out of the

00:11:19 ◼   ► cold email somebody is are very

00:11:22 ◼   ► different than if you're just for when

00:11:23 ◼   ► you're you know feel like you're

00:11:24 ◼   ► responding to a company especially a

00:11:26 ◼   ► company that you've paid a lot of money

00:11:27 ◼   ► to and so just trying to be honest and

00:11:30 ◼   ► transparent about that I think is a

00:11:31 ◼   ► really helpful thing

00:11:33 ◼   ► absolutely so our sponsor this week is

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00:12:48 ◼   ► the show

00:12:49 ◼   ► so moving on a little bit from like

00:12:52 ◼   ► whether you want to appear as a company

00:12:53 ◼   ► versus an individual i I wanted to

00:12:57 ◼   ► mention kind of personality of an app

00:12:59 ◼   ► and whether your app should kind of like

00:13:02 ◼   ► even just in things like the copy that

00:13:04 ◼   ► you have in the app the the wording for

00:13:06 ◼   ► things the micro copy the help text the

00:13:09 ◼   ► even even like the major features of the

00:13:11 ◼   ► app or the the branding of at the name

00:13:14 ◼   ► the icon every like in all aspects of

00:13:16 ◼   ► the app whether whether you want it to

00:13:19 ◼   ► have a a personality a strong

00:13:22 ◼   ► personality or a kind of more neutral

00:13:25 ◼   ► theme and voice and I think there's a

00:13:28 ◼   ► lot to be said for both sides of this

00:13:31 ◼   ► the the the more neutral voice it would

00:13:34 ◼   ► should be kind of like the default kind

00:13:36 ◼   ► of the the corporate voice /no voice

00:13:40 ◼   ► depending on how you look at it that I I

00:13:43 ◼   ► think is the safe choice it's the

00:13:44 ◼   ► easiest choice so it's easy to have a

00:13:47 ◼   ► neutral personality because if you look

00:13:50 ◼   ► at like Apple's apps Apple's apps all

00:13:52 ◼   ► have an initial personality if you look

00:13:54 ◼   ► at other platforms windows Google like

00:13:56 ◼   ► you all these things they have neutral

00:13:58 ◼   ► personalities at the system level and

00:14:00 ◼   ► the reason they have neutral

00:14:02 ◼   ► personalities is because they don't want

00:14:04 ◼   ► to alienate people because as soon as

00:14:06 ◼   ► you add any personality to it to to the

00:14:09 ◼   ► app or or to the system or anything like

00:14:11 ◼   ► that

00:14:11 ◼   ► you do run the risk that that's not

00:14:15 ◼   ► going to work well for some people that

00:14:17 ◼   ► some people are are maybe not gonna get

00:14:20 ◼   ► it or they're gonna be confused like

00:14:21 ◼   ► wait why is that kind of appearing like

00:14:24 ◼   ► smart at me like like they're they're

00:14:27 ◼   ► they're gonna they're not gonna like it

00:14:29 ◼   ► it's gonna rub them the wrong way it's

00:14:31 ◼   ► very hard to create a personality that

00:14:34 ◼   ► spans across all cultures all ages all

00:14:38 ◼   ► languages in a way that that nobody is

00:14:41 ◼   ► really offended and at big companies

00:14:43 ◼   ► like Microsoft and Apple and Google they

00:14:46 ◼   ► have to consider that because they serve

00:14:48 ◼   ► the entire world and and if they if they

00:14:51 ◼   ► have something that is slightly rubbing

00:14:53 ◼   ► somebody the wrong way that could mean

00:14:55 ◼   ► like millions of people don't buy it or

00:14:57 ◼   ► think worse of it or something and and

00:14:59 ◼   ► so it makes a lot of sense if you're a

00:15:02 ◼   ► really big company like that to to

00:15:04 ◼   ► basically not have personality in your

00:15:06 ◼   ► apps or to have very very little of it

00:15:08 ◼   ► and I think a lot of people look at

00:15:12 ◼   ► those big companies and they say well I

00:15:14 ◼   ► want my app to appear to be as good as

00:15:16 ◼   ► theirs and so therefore the right

00:15:18 ◼   ► approach for me is also to have this

00:15:20 ◼   ► kind of neutral personality and to not

00:15:22 ◼   ► put much you know voice or flair in in

00:15:26 ◼   ► the app and I think again this is one of

00:15:29 ◼   ► those things where it depends on the

00:15:31 ◼   ► business I you know if you look at again

00:15:33 ◼   ► picking charles's meta tax is great

00:15:35 ◼   ► example I bet the world of tax

00:15:37 ◼   ► preparation does not really want their

00:15:40 ◼   ► tax reference app to be making jokes at

00:15:42 ◼   ► them like that would just rub them the

00:15:44 ◼   ► wrong way it would make it look a mature

00:15:47 ◼   ► issue it would it would make them feel

00:15:48 ◼   ► like wait a minute what did I could

00:15:50 ◼   ► spend $100 on this is supposed to be a

00:15:52 ◼   ► serious reference tool and I need to

00:15:54 ◼   ► know it's serious because I'm doing

00:15:55 ◼   ► serious work with it at the same time

00:15:58 ◼   ► though if you look at other apps

00:16:01 ◼   ► especially and I said like consumer

00:16:02 ◼   ► absolute like what we make I think a

00:16:04 ◼   ► really great example of this is carrot

00:16:06 ◼   ► weather I was gonna say the same thing

00:16:08 ◼   ► yep

00:16:09 ◼   ► it is the extreme archetype for the

00:16:12 ◼   ► strong personality in an application

00:16:14 ◼   ► like it makes a point of insulting you

00:16:18 ◼   ► on a regular basis or at least making

00:16:21 ◼   ► odd comments and like it's as though the

00:16:24 ◼   ► app was made by this kind of crazy robot

00:16:26 ◼   ► or I don't even know or AI am not sure

00:16:29 ◼   ► what it's exactly the posed to be clear

00:16:31 ◼   ► this crazy weather thing that you know

00:16:34 ◼   ► has a strong personality and you love it

00:16:37 ◼   ► or you hate it like it's it's very

00:16:38 ◼   ► unlikely to be kind of like yeah I feel

00:16:41 ◼   ► neutral about this we know weather

00:16:43 ◼   ► overlord that's you know making jokes

00:16:45 ◼   ► about me yeah but like so-so carrot

00:16:48 ◼   ► weather is you know it's a weather app

00:16:50 ◼   ► like there are a billion weather apps

00:16:52 ◼   ► and they are differentiated by in part

00:16:55 ◼   ► this incredibly strong polarizing

00:16:59 ◼   ► personality they've added to that app

00:17:00 ◼   ► and it kind of makes sense it works for

00:17:03 ◼   ► them because a you know most people

00:17:06 ◼   ► don't need their weather app to be a

00:17:08 ◼   ► hundred percent serious all the time and

00:17:10 ◼   ► there are enough people looking for

00:17:12 ◼   ► weather apps that you you can have a

00:17:15 ◼   ► polarizing personality like that in your

00:17:18 ◼   ► weather app and even if you a lien eight

00:17:20 ◼   ► ninety percent of people out there you

00:17:23 ◼   ► can still make a really good business

00:17:25 ◼   ► out of their remaining ten percent and

00:17:26 ◼   ► you can look at that and you can say

00:17:28 ◼   ► well that's bad business you know why

00:17:30 ◼   ► why don't you make an app that appeals

00:17:31 ◼   ► to more people and then you can do

00:17:33 ◼   ► better and and of course it isn't

00:17:35 ◼   ► actually that simple in reality you know

00:17:36 ◼   ► in reality we have all these complicated

00:17:38 ◼   ► factors and contributing factors in the

00:17:40 ◼   ► case of something like this like in iOS

00:17:42 ◼   ► consumer apps having some personality

00:17:45 ◼   ► like that while it will lose you some

00:17:46 ◼   ► people for sure and in carrot where

00:17:48 ◼   ► those case I

00:17:49 ◼   ► use carrot weather because I don't like

00:17:51 ◼   ► that personally I find it a little bit

00:17:54 ◼   ► much so I don't use it but I know a lot

00:17:56 ◼   ► of people who do use it and who enjoy it

00:17:57 ◼   ► a lot and the reason I know about it is

00:17:59 ◼   ► because a I saw it once and it made an

00:18:03 ◼   ► impression and I remembered it which is

00:18:06 ◼   ► something you can't say about things

00:18:07 ◼   ► that have a neutral voice they usually

00:18:08 ◼   ► don't do that so I remember it made an

00:18:10 ◼   ► impression and B it got a lot of press

00:18:14 ◼   ► because it was noteworthy it was

00:18:16 ◼   ► different it there are so many weather

00:18:19 ◼   ► apps out there and it's very hard for

00:18:22 ◼   ► any of them to stand out in any way to

00:18:24 ◼   ► get press or to big get remembered by

00:18:26 ◼   ► people who aren't using them every day

00:18:27 ◼   ► and this one did it got press it gets

00:18:30 ◼   ► remembered it has like you know about

00:18:33 ◼   ► you and I have never talked about that

00:18:34 ◼   ► before I had no idea that you had used

00:18:36 ◼   ► it but now I know because like you know

00:18:38 ◼   ► we we this app has made a splash for

00:18:41 ◼   ► itself and has its own brand and

00:18:44 ◼   ► personality that are established now

00:18:45 ◼   ► that people know that people remember

00:18:47 ◼   ► and and it stands out from the pack

00:18:48 ◼   ► because it has personality so adding

00:18:51 ◼   ► personality to an app and the stronger

00:18:53 ◼   ► you do it the more stream this is adding

00:18:55 ◼   ► personality to an app is a risk but it's

00:18:58 ◼   ► a risk that might be worth it for the

00:19:00 ◼   ► payoff and it's you know it's really up

00:19:03 ◼   ► to you and and up to the market of the

00:19:05 ◼   ► app whether that's a risk worth taking

00:19:07 ◼   ► and how far you want to take it you know

00:19:09 ◼   ► in their case you know as it like for me

00:19:11 ◼   ► they took it too far

00:19:12 ◼   ► but they're obviously doing well with

00:19:14 ◼   ► everybody else so and you know III have

00:19:17 ◼   ► a different app I use anyway so it's

00:19:18 ◼   ► fine it's like and you know and and in

00:19:21 ◼   ► overcast

00:19:22 ◼   ► I have personality and there are two I

00:19:23 ◼   ► don't do it is I don't do it to the

00:19:24 ◼   ► extent that they do I kind of my

00:19:27 ◼   ► personality is more like a little bit of

00:19:28 ◼   ► accent here and there like some of the

00:19:29 ◼   ► microcopy around certain things and

00:19:31 ◼   ► everything but it's not like it's not

00:19:33 ◼   ► that heavy handed and because for me I

00:19:36 ◼   ► thought that was the right balance

00:19:37 ◼   ► because I want overcast to be semi

00:19:39 ◼   ► mass-market but I also know that I need

00:19:42 ◼   ► to stand out because there's already a

00:19:44 ◼   ► mass-market podcasts app on the phone

00:19:45 ◼   ► called podcast that's always there and

00:19:48 ◼   ► heavily promoted and heavily indicated

00:19:49 ◼   ► by everything so you know I knew that I

00:19:52 ◼   ► wasn't going to win the battle with no

00:19:54 ◼   ► personality but I also I didn't want to

00:19:57 ◼   ► give so much personality that it turned

00:19:59 ◼   ► off a big section of the audience so

00:20:01 ◼   ► it's always it's a bow

00:20:03 ◼   ► you have to strike and I think it's it's

00:20:06 ◼   ► it's part of your overall design and

00:20:08 ◼   ► branding of the entire app you know you

00:20:10 ◼   ► should be considering this with any

00:20:12 ◼   ► design decision Kyle you know a lot of

00:20:14 ◼   ► you know even in overcast being this

00:20:17 ◼   ► this app with this kind of like bright

00:20:19 ◼   ► orange and white color theme like that's

00:20:21 ◼   ► also part of the personality of the app

00:20:23 ◼   ► it's like I'm not gonna just pick you

00:20:25 ◼   ► know blue like everybody else everybody

00:20:27 ◼   ► picks blue no offense everything

00:20:29 ◼   ► everybody picks blue and the reason

00:20:31 ◼   ► everybody picks blue is goes back to

00:20:32 ◼   ► what I said earlier about Microsoft and

00:20:34 ◼   ► Apple that it's it's very hard to pick

00:20:36 ◼   ► colors that don't offend or have

00:20:40 ◼   ► negative connotations to some culture

00:20:42 ◼   ► somewhere and one of the reasons why all

00:20:44 ◼   ► your icons in your computer are blue is

00:20:46 ◼   ► because blue is is like probably the one

00:20:49 ◼   ► of the most neutral but appealing colors

00:20:51 ◼   ► that exists that can be the same around

00:20:54 ◼   ► the whole world and not really offend

00:20:56 ◼   ► anybody where if you pick like red then

00:20:58 ◼   ► you know red might mean unlucky in

00:21:00 ◼   ► country X Y or Z or you know something

00:21:02 ◼   ► like that it's like there's there are

00:21:04 ◼   ► always these these cultural baggages on

00:21:06 ◼   ► all the on all design and color and

00:21:08 ◼   ► personality choices that you have to

00:21:09 ◼   ► kind of walk around if you're a giant

00:21:10 ◼   ► company but as a smaller company as we

00:21:13 ◼   ► as we've been talking about as a smaller

00:21:14 ◼   ► company we have the freedom to to not do

00:21:17 ◼   ► that we have the freedom to to to be a

00:21:20 ◼   ► little bit polarizing for the benefit of

00:21:24 ◼   ► having people notice us and remember us

00:21:27 ◼   ► and maybe get some press and maybe get

00:21:29 ◼   ► some some people who who resonates with

00:21:32 ◼   ► ya because I think at its core I mean

00:21:34 ◼   ► there's the marketing aspect of like you

00:21:36 ◼   ► need to have something if you will

00:21:39 ◼   ► ideally your app it's probably gonna

00:21:41 ◼   ► have some sense of like word-of-mouth

00:21:43 ◼   ► advertising to it there's gonna be some

00:21:45 ◼   ► aspect to it that like you someone likes

00:21:47 ◼   ► the app and they're gonna show someone

00:21:49 ◼   ► else and there is a you have to have

00:21:52 ◼   ► something distinctive about your

00:21:54 ◼   ► application for that really to catch on

00:21:57 ◼   ► and to work and like that

00:21:59 ◼   ► distinctiveness could it be something

00:22:01 ◼   ► more like fundamental like it's just

00:22:04 ◼   ► really good its Reno it's just really

00:22:06 ◼   ► solidly constructed but like that's a

00:22:08 ◼   ► harder thing to get to such a degree

00:22:11 ◼   ► that someone's going to be like wow let

00:22:13 ◼   ► me show you this app that you know like

00:22:14 ◼   ► all the way it always renders that 60

00:22:16 ◼   ► frames a second

00:22:17 ◼   ► and sinks really quickly like that's

00:22:19 ◼   ► unlikely to be something that is a hook

00:22:21 ◼   ► that is like something that really grabs

00:22:23 ◼   ► someone's you know imagination and makes

00:22:25 ◼   ► them want to tell people about it and so

00:22:28 ◼   ► when you do something like this when

00:22:29 ◼   ► you're talking when you're thinking

00:22:30 ◼   ► about your application and you give it a

00:22:32 ◼   ► give it a stronger personality or you

00:22:34 ◼   ► have lots of little touches that maybe

00:22:37 ◼   ► are a bit more Arthur are less safe

00:22:41 ◼   ► you're giving yourself the opportunity

00:22:43 ◼   ► to have more of those hooks to have more

00:22:46 ◼   ► of those things that the press will

00:22:47 ◼   ► latch onto that people your customers

00:22:50 ◼   ► will latch onto and be like show other

00:22:51 ◼   ► people you're like I'm thinking about

00:22:52 ◼   ► like an overcast at the bottom of your

00:22:54 ◼   ► settings screen where it tells you how

00:22:55 ◼   ► much time you've saved with smart speed

00:22:57 ◼   ► it's like it's a little touch that in is

00:23:01 ◼   ► a great opportunity for someone to share

00:23:04 ◼   ► the application with someone else even

00:23:06 ◼   ► if you add these little things into it

00:23:09 ◼   ► you're trying to give it a little bit

00:23:10 ◼   ► more you know like personality or like

00:23:14 ◼   ► non neutral non neutrality maybe even is

00:23:17 ◼   ► a better way to say it like you give

00:23:19 ◼   ► yourself the opportunity and being a

00:23:21 ◼   ► small company like I like that I'm I

00:23:24 ◼   ► feel fine doing those because I don't

00:23:26 ◼   ► it's not like I have to go before some

00:23:28 ◼   ► kind of committee to be like is this an

00:23:30 ◼   ► accept like is this silliness okay like

00:23:32 ◼   ► there's not like the Ministry of

00:23:34 ◼   ► silliness that I have to go to and say

00:23:35 ◼   ► I'd like to have this little silly this

00:23:37 ◼   ► little silly touch to the application is

00:23:39 ◼   ► that okay I would love to see like a

00:23:41 ◼   ► conference room at Apple and on the

00:23:44 ◼   ► front of the door in like sterile bland

00:23:46 ◼   ► San Francisco Texas stenciled Ministry

00:23:49 ◼   ► of silliness yeah but it's sure though

00:23:53 ◼   ► like I imagine in some ways there is

00:23:54 ◼   ► that that those voices in bigger

00:23:56 ◼   ► companies that look at something and be

00:23:58 ◼   ► like no that's that's not like that

00:24:01 ◼   ► maybe that people could take that the

00:24:02 ◼   ► wrong way or maybe that's not do you

00:24:05 ◼   ► know like oh that doesn't fit with our

00:24:06 ◼   ► corporate brand or a feel I mean or even

00:24:08 ◼   ► like I think about like in pedometer

00:24:10 ◼   ► plus plus I had a little thing it when

00:24:12 ◼   ► you hit your goal confetti falls from

00:24:14 ◼   ► the top of the screen which is a little

00:24:16 ◼   ► bit of tight a little bit of personality

00:24:18 ◼   ► a little bit of sleight of silliness

00:24:19 ◼   ► that is probably the one with it's

00:24:23 ◼   ► probably only a slight exaggeration to

00:24:25 ◼   ► say like that feature is one of the

00:24:27 ◼   ► biggest reasons the app has been

00:24:28 ◼   ► successful

00:24:29 ◼   ► because people love it like they like

00:24:32 ◼   ► that feeling of getting their goal and

00:24:34 ◼   ► getting confetti and it's an it doesn't

00:24:36 ◼   ► have to be there the app doesn't need is

00:24:38 ◼   ► something like that but putting it there

00:24:41 ◼   ► by making it a little bit more fun a

00:24:43 ◼   ► little bit more a little bit more silly

00:24:44 ◼   ► I people it endears itself to people and

00:24:48 ◼   ► like I like that I can take advantage of

00:24:50 ◼   ► that and you know have you give people

00:24:53 ◼   ► that fun of like hey check this out I

00:24:54 ◼   ► just got my goal and you know confetti

00:24:56 ◼   ► is falling from the sky yeah it seems

00:24:59 ◼   ► like like maybe like the more

00:25:01 ◼   ► commoditized a market is and like the

00:25:04 ◼   ► harder it is to stand out otherwise like

00:25:06 ◼   ► I mean you would know better than

00:25:07 ◼   ► anybody else how many other pedometer

00:25:08 ◼   ► apps are there on the store it's

00:25:10 ◼   ► probably not a small number no it isn't

00:25:12 ◼   ► anymore but yeah I mean when you

00:25:14 ◼   ► launched it was a smaller perk as you

00:25:15 ◼   ► launch like the second you possibly

00:25:17 ◼   ► could but yeah it's not a small number

00:25:18 ◼   ► now and so stuff like that will help you

00:25:21 ◼   ► stand out now because you know it's it's

00:25:24 ◼   ► it's a large market of mostly

00:25:26 ◼   ► undifferentiated apps anything you can

00:25:28 ◼   ► do to differentiate yourself and to give

00:25:30 ◼   ► people a little bit of that little

00:25:31 ◼   ► niceness a little delight little moments

00:25:34 ◼   ► of delight that that is that helps you

00:25:36 ◼   ► stand out and you know in in like

00:25:38 ◼   ► business-wise you can you know this

00:25:40 ◼   ► could integrate into your business model

00:25:41 ◼   ► as well like you know if you look at an

00:25:43 ◼   ► app let's let's say like one of those

00:25:45 ◼   ► like hipster camera apps if they limit

00:25:47 ◼   ► the amount of shots you can take and

00:25:50 ◼   ► it's like like what didn't have some

00:25:51 ◼   ► dismantle it's like you can like you

00:25:54 ◼   ► like paper shot like an old Polaroid

00:25:55 ◼   ► it's like an old film camera like like

00:25:58 ◼   ► oh you get you could buy a roll of film

00:25:59 ◼   ► or whatever that's part of their

00:26:02 ◼   ► business model and people hated it but

00:26:04 ◼   ► they talked about it and it worked you

00:26:05 ◼   ► know in in a more I guess positive way

00:26:09 ◼   ► you know in an overcast the the whole

00:26:11 ◼   ► patronage model patronage works because

00:26:15 ◼   ► from day one I've been giving the app

00:26:18 ◼   ► the voice and personality of one person

00:26:21 ◼   ► like not a big company one person so

00:26:24 ◼   ► when I say hey please give me money if

00:26:26 ◼   ► you feel like it that means a lot more

00:26:29 ◼   ► than if it was a bland voiced company

00:26:32 ◼   ► saying that I I think it would be less

00:26:35 ◼   ► successful you know but at the same time

00:26:37 ◼   ► it's a risk is like you know some people

00:26:38 ◼   ► just think I'm a jerk and won't give me

00:26:40 ◼   ► any money but you know it's

00:26:42 ◼   ► think overall I think I found a decent

00:26:44 ◼   ► balance there and and i think i think

00:26:46 ◼   ► many apps could benefit from finding

00:26:49 ◼   ► that kind of balance because as you said

00:26:51 ◼   ► earlier this is something that the big

00:26:53 ◼   ► companies they won't do because their

00:26:56 ◼   ► Ministry of silliness will reject it all

00:26:57 ◼   ► like do something if you want to stand

00:27:00 ◼   ► out from the big companies do something

00:27:02 ◼   ► they will never do because then they

00:27:05 ◼   ► can't Sherlock you they like they can't

00:27:07 ◼   ► put you out of business through that way

00:27:08 ◼   ► like they that it's a way you will be

00:27:10 ◼   ► able to stand out and one way you can

00:27:12 ◼   ► always stand out as an indie is with

00:27:14 ◼   ► personality because the big companies

00:27:16 ◼   ► will never do it and it's I think in

00:27:18 ◼   ► many ways like it's the great thing of

00:27:20 ◼   ► it's the hardest thing for someone else

00:27:22 ◼   ► to copy oh yeah like if I'm if I imbue

00:27:27 ◼   ► my applications with my own personality

00:27:29 ◼   ► like you know like my sense of humor the

00:27:31 ◼   ► way I the way I see the world someone

00:27:33 ◼   ► else may be able to come along and copy

00:27:35 ◼   ► my features they may be able to copy my

00:27:38 ◼   ► UI but those little touches are going to

00:27:41 ◼   ► be very hard for them to copy for them

00:27:43 ◼   ► to copy and so if my features start

00:27:46 ◼   ► showing up in other applications like

00:27:49 ◼   ► okay that the features there but it's

00:27:51 ◼   ► not gonna feel the same as when

00:27:53 ◼   ► someone's using that feature inside of

00:27:55 ◼   ► my application because the reason it was

00:27:57 ◼   ► there and the way that like it loses the

00:27:59 ◼   ► context around it that made it

00:28:02 ◼   ► distinctive and like in the crowded kind

00:28:04 ◼   ► of insane marketplace that is the App

00:28:06 ◼   ► Store like makings doing anything that

00:28:09 ◼   ► is hard to be copied can only probably

00:28:11 ◼   ► be a good thing yeah and other

00:28:13 ◼   ► industries learn this lesson long ago

00:28:14 ◼   ► like this this is how the fashion

00:28:16 ◼   ► industry works big time like it's so

00:28:18 ◼   ► much based on reputation and and like

00:28:20 ◼   ► long term branding and personality and

00:28:22 ◼   ► everything I'm like what does this brand

00:28:23 ◼   ► mean we know what do they stand for and

00:28:25 ◼   ► someone else can make the same shirt

00:28:27 ◼   ► that's cost less the people will buy

00:28:29 ◼   ► your shirt because they like you know

00:28:31 ◼   ► the horse and your ads or whatever so

00:28:32 ◼   ► it's like we have a lot to learn from

00:28:34 ◼   ► other industries about this as well but

00:28:36 ◼   ► you know software doesn't it doesn't all

00:28:38 ◼   ► have to be safely blandly voiced it can

00:28:43 ◼   ► be and there's many instances where that

00:28:45 ◼   ► is the right choice but not all exactly

00:28:48 ◼   ► and I think ultimately you just have to

00:28:50 ◼   ► make sure the it's the most important

00:28:51 ◼   ► thing like the biggest takeaway

00:28:52 ◼   ► hopefully from today's show is this is

00:28:54 ◼   ► something that's important to be a

00:28:56 ◼   ► conscious

00:28:56 ◼   ► choice that it's something that you if

00:28:59 ◼   ► you view and whenever you sit down to

00:29:00 ◼   ► make software you have to decide like

00:29:02 ◼   ► where are you on the spectrum what are

00:29:03 ◼   ► your goals what are you trying to

00:29:05 ◼   ► ultimately do with this piece of

00:29:06 ◼   ► software and then you'll have to align

00:29:09 ◼   ► that with the way you build it how much

00:29:11 ◼   ► personality you put into your

00:29:12 ◼   ► application how big you appear how fancy

00:29:15 ◼   ► you appear how much silliness you allow

00:29:17 ◼   ► and as long as it's a conscious choice

00:29:20 ◼   ► you're probably doing you know in a good

00:29:22 ◼   ► place because you're able to have it be

00:29:24 ◼   ► consistent and then impactful for your

00:29:27 ◼   ► customers exactly alright well we're out

00:29:29 ◼   ► of time for this week and there's a good

00:29:31 ◼   ► discussion so thank you very much for

00:29:32 ◼   ► listening everybody they took on for

00:29:34 ◼   ► sponsoring thanks to release notes for

00:29:36 ◼   ► being good go listen to that show you

00:29:38 ◼   ► should be subscribing to it and we'll

00:29:40 ◼   ► talk to you next week