Under the Radar

Under the Radar 11: Ad-Funded Apps


00:00:00   welcome to under the radar show about

00:00:02   independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04   Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:07   the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08   minutes so let's get started so this

00:00:10   week we're going to talk a little bit

00:00:11   about I add an ad driven app revenue

00:00:14   models because there's some news this

00:00:17   past week that I ad was shutting down

00:00:21   part of its offerings and the it's

00:00:24   showing on what's called the app Network

00:00:25   and a lot of people it was very

00:00:27   confusing message and a lot of people

00:00:28   kind of thought this was shutting down

00:00:29   all of AI ad and it's kind of confusing

00:00:32   as to what parts of I add are left and

00:00:34   and David's you know since you have a

00:00:36   lot of experience with AD funded apps I

00:00:39   and and I think most most developers who

00:00:42   most people hear from in podcasts and

00:00:45   stuff don't have a lot of experience I'm

00:00:47   you know most developers who in podcast

00:00:48   and who have blogs and stuff are trying

00:00:50   to sell paid apps or at least free apps

00:00:52   with paid and net purchases and I I

00:00:54   don't hear a lot of discussion from

00:00:56   people who have much or any experience

00:00:59   especially significant experience with

00:01:02   app driven or with AD driven revenue

00:01:05   models and apps and and you do so I love

00:01:08   to hear a lot from you on this with your

00:01:10   experiences and your thoughts around you

00:01:13   know what's going on with ads what what

00:01:16   kind of led to this point what the

00:01:18   reality is of AD funded app development

00:01:21   today and then what this what this

00:01:23   announcement really means and what it

00:01:25   might mean for you so but I definitely

00:01:27   wanted to dive into a little bit at

00:01:28   first like the background of where I'm

00:01:30   coming from with ads and so like

00:01:32   whenever I think about revenue for an

00:01:34   application the first thing obviously is

00:01:35   like you think about well how am I going

00:01:37   to make money and you can really make us

00:01:39   make money in three main ways like you

00:01:41   can have an ongoing payment from

00:01:43   somebody you know something like a

00:01:44   subscription you can get a one-time

00:01:46   payment from your youth from your

00:01:48   customer where yunus which is the

00:01:50   typical sort of like paid upfront model

00:01:51   and then you'd have something where you

00:01:54   get no payment from your customer and so

00:01:56   you're either than relying on

00:01:57   advertising where someone else is paying

00:01:59   you for that customer to use your

00:02:01   application or you have just no revenue

00:02:04   at all in which case you're probably you

00:02:05   know you're going for some kind of

00:02:06   market share play or something where

00:02:09   direct revenue isn't important to you

00:02:12   and so why would you end up using

00:02:14   advertising it's an application that's

00:02:15   gonna have a lot of people and the

00:02:18   majority of which who don't want to

00:02:19   actually pay to use your application

00:02:21   with money which is a lot of

00:02:23   applications especially in the iOS App

00:02:25   Store and so I've used advertising in

00:02:29   almost all of my app or it for almost

00:02:31   the entire like length of my history of

00:02:33   being an app developer for I one of my

00:02:36   earliest apps I even originally built my

00:02:39   own app Network and like we're just

00:02:40   trying to do direct sales for it and

00:02:42   that didn't really work in scale and so

00:02:43   I pretty quickly moved to I think back

00:02:45   then this was probably in 2009 ish it

00:02:50   was probably AdMob I think was the big

00:02:51   one back then then at you know I ad was

00:02:55   introduced in 2010 and so I jumped on to

00:02:59   using that as quickly as I could and I

00:03:02   had always did pretty well for me you

00:03:03   know so apples it was apples platform it

00:03:05   was nice and integrated into the

00:03:07   platform and it did well you know I go

00:03:09   it's got pretty good fill rates like

00:03:11   which is the amount of times that I ask

00:03:12   for an ad that actually get one back for

00:03:15   me it was usually like three quarters to

00:03:16   almost like 98 percent I think often for

00:03:19   fill rates I had pretty quality ads good

00:03:21   revenue and I was overall generally

00:03:24   pretty happy with it like over time

00:03:26   there the quality of I ad is certainly

00:03:29   changed but I think it's probably more

00:03:30   in some ways a reflection on how the

00:03:33   store has changed in you know since like

00:03:35   2010 we're now a lot of the ads are just

00:03:38   for you know sort of like the candy

00:03:41   crush a game of war kind of games where

00:03:46   the it's all about trying to drive

00:03:47   downloads for apps that are you know

00:03:50   then use you know purchased to you know

00:03:52   sort of to get revenue from people and

00:03:54   so that's where most of my ads are for

00:03:55   which means you know they're not it's

00:03:57   not great they're not awesome things but

00:03:59   at this point like perhaps or

00:04:02   advertising probably makes somewhere

00:04:04   between 40 to 45 percent of the revenue

00:04:06   I get and it's definitely like the

00:04:08   biggest source of revenue from my most

00:04:10   important apps to me and so that's kind

00:04:13   of a weird place to find myself now that

00:04:15   I find that I add is going to be

00:04:18   shutting down or closing or doing

00:04:20   something dramatic

00:04:22   in the next couple of and if I think by

00:04:24   June or so it'll be changing and I don't

00:04:26   think we know exactly what it's going to

00:04:28   look like after that but it's definitely

00:04:29   going to be different so III know that

00:04:33   you know you talk about you talk about

00:04:34   the fill rate and I've heard various

00:04:35   things I've heard from people who aren't

00:04:36   happy with I adds fill rate I've heard

00:04:38   it is it getting worse over time um it

00:04:41   varies and so this is one of those funny

00:04:42   things with advertising like I've heard

00:04:44   from some people who get like because

00:04:46   it's all based the adverts did the ants

00:04:47   that you get are always going to be

00:04:48   based on the demographics of the people

00:04:51   who you use your app and how they use it

00:04:54   and some kind of you know secret

00:04:56   algorithm that is trying to pair people

00:04:58   up and so for my apps for like

00:05:00   audiobooks and pedometer plus plus I've

00:05:02   usually had pretty good fill rates um I

00:05:04   wouldn't say they've gone down over time

00:05:05   maybe there's some of the rates have

00:05:07   gone down over time but those are even

00:05:09   really hard to track because they're so

00:05:10   cyclical like every January first my

00:05:14   like advertising rates drop by at least

00:05:17   a half because everyone's advertising

00:05:19   budgets you know we're sort of all spent

00:05:21   up until then and no one buys ads at

00:05:23   first like the first couple weeks of

00:05:25   January and so things like cycle

00:05:27   dramatically but like I would say I had

00:05:29   is it's it's maybe it's gotten done down

00:05:32   slightly I think overall in the

00:05:34   advertising market I think in a lot of

00:05:36   ways things are going down and the weird

00:05:39   thing did you then start having to like

00:05:40   balance those like what kind of ads are

00:05:42   you even talking about like most of my

00:05:44   apps only do banner ads you can also do

00:05:46   interstitials and all kind of and sort

00:05:49   of more aggressive forms of advertising

00:05:51   that completely take over the

00:05:52   application until you watch a 30-second

00:05:54   video or those types of things well

00:05:56   which obviously get better and better

00:05:57   rates accordingly right but of course

00:06:00   annoy people more and more yeah I mean

00:06:03   that's always a tricky balance with

00:06:04   advertising is like what works is being

00:06:07   more intrusive and more annoying and and

00:06:10   like you can there are things that work

00:06:12   that aren't intrusive and annoying that

00:06:14   there's always this constant tension

00:06:15   there's pressure to you know make a

00:06:17   little bit more or to combat some other

00:06:20   kind of downturn by just making things a

00:06:22   little bit more annoying or a little bit

00:06:23   more creepy and you know data privacy

00:06:25   issues or things like that there's

00:06:26   always these pressures and a lot of

00:06:28   times people have to cave to those

00:06:31   things in order to even survive to have

00:06:33   their business to survive it's it's a

00:06:34   very

00:06:35   tricky balance and in some areas like in

00:06:37   podcasting right now we are lucky that

00:06:40   podcast advertising right now is still

00:06:42   very high quality and and that you know

00:06:44   we're able to command great rates and

00:06:45   have ads that aren't too annoying at

00:06:47   because of the nature of the medium and

00:06:49   the market conditions right now but apps

00:06:51   I think are similar to the web in in

00:06:54   that it's very very hard to get great ad

00:06:57   rates for in-app ads I mean it have you

00:07:00   found that to either to the case yeah I

00:07:03   think so I mean it's every I set up say

00:07:05   I'm so making almost half of my revenue

00:07:07   from them so I mean there is money to be

00:07:09   made there but yeah it's the volumes you

00:07:12   need to make a living doing it is pretty

00:07:15   substantial this may be the better way

00:07:17   to look at it in much the same ways like

00:07:19   with the web or something where like you

00:07:21   say with a podcast like the number of

00:07:22   listeners you have to have before you

00:07:24   can have you know it's not a substantial

00:07:27   revenue coming from a podcast is

00:07:29   dramatically less than the number of

00:07:32   users you need for an out you know for

00:07:34   an application to have any kind of any

00:07:35   kind of sort of real tangible revenue

00:07:37   you're talking about probably you know

00:07:40   tens if not hundreds of thousands of

00:07:42   users a day of your application before

00:07:44   you're going to be getting into that

00:07:45   into into something that you could

00:07:47   really like make a run at which is and

00:07:50   they have to keep doing it all the time

00:07:51   being in some ways it's nice because

00:07:53   advertising is based on people using

00:07:56   your application and so it's nicely in

00:07:57   some ways it's nice I've always said I

00:07:59   like that it aligns my people using the

00:08:02   application with the revenue I get so if

00:08:05   I engage people more if I make people

00:08:07   really like the app and come back to it

00:08:08   time and time again my revenue goes up

00:08:11   which is nice but it still always

00:08:14   creates all these weird tensions for

00:08:15   like well what if there was another way

00:08:17   that I could get people back into the

00:08:18   application what if I sent them a push

00:08:20   notification it said hey you know how

00:08:23   you haven't checked your steps in a

00:08:25   while maybe you should you've earned the

00:08:26   new step bomb yeah like there's so many

00:08:29   things that you start to get into that

00:08:31   get cross all kinds of lines that like

00:08:35   it's a really it forces you to really be

00:08:38   thoughtful in a way that isn't is a bit

00:08:40   weird like sometimes I like just the

00:08:42   paid app that's the paid model which is

00:08:44   nice because it's simple like in some

00:08:46   ways I can just be lazy about it and be

00:08:48   like well thank you

00:08:49   money I gave them app like that's great

00:08:51   that's nice and simple versus all having

00:08:53   to really think about like does this

00:08:55   cross the line is this like too

00:08:57   is this too aggressive is this too

00:09:00   annoying is this going to like work in a

00:09:04   way that is going to ruin my reputation

00:09:06   but like you could make me more money

00:09:08   but really make the app not so good to

00:09:11   use like it's some really hard questions

00:09:13   that things like advertising force you

00:09:15   dad to face up to well and I think you

00:09:18   know among like the the kind of like

00:09:20   Apple enthusiast community I think ads

00:09:22   and apps are taboo that I you know you

00:09:24   don't see people like Panik making apps

00:09:27   with ads in them like the idea of the of

00:09:29   like the the the high-end in the kind of

00:09:32   craft app scene almost nobody in that

00:09:35   scene uses ads

00:09:37   in any apps that people have actually

00:09:38   heard of and used like some people will

00:09:40   have like a secret app on the side you

00:09:42   know that like like like I've heard like

00:09:44   it like David Barnard a tap cubby always

00:09:45   talked about he has he has mirror app

00:09:47   and that his you know that's like we're

00:09:49   where he experiments with with revenue

00:09:51   model stuff and they have ads and that

00:09:52   that's fine but like you know you like

00:09:54   you don't see like tweet bought five

00:09:56   free with ads or pay to unlock them but

00:09:59   that's you hardly ever see ads in that

00:10:01   in that kind of like high-end app

00:10:03   development community and I think

00:10:05   ultimately I think that's temporary I

00:10:08   think we will get to a point where ads

00:10:10   start moving in just because the other

00:10:12   revenue models are getting so much

00:10:14   harder you know because I just like it

00:10:15   is that's a really good point that like

00:10:17   it does make sense for apps that are

00:10:20   used frequently like you know if you

00:10:23   have some kind of like quick utility app

00:10:25   that is hardly ever used that look the

00:10:27   kind of thing you keep on your phone for

00:10:29   occasional use or maybe if you're

00:10:31   traveling mean them something like that

00:10:33   or maybe it's like a special kind of

00:10:35   like unit converter that you only need

00:10:37   four times a year but you're really glad

00:10:39   it's there in those kind of instances ad

00:10:41   funded apps probably don't make a lot of

00:10:42   sense but if it's something like the

00:10:46   like a newsreader where you're going

00:10:48   into that every single day you know like

00:10:50   then then and spending meaningful time

00:10:51   in it then I think that makes a lot of

00:10:53   sense and that actually have you found

00:10:56   like is it possible for ads in in

00:10:59   frequently used apps in a high pressure

00:11:02   in an environment where there's a lot of

00:11:05   pressure to keep the upfront price down

00:11:06   like the a store might ads make more

00:11:09   money for like daily use apps than a

00:11:13   paid upfront model code I think probably

00:11:15   I mean I think that's an analyst II

00:11:17   that's why I do like why I have ads and

00:11:21   so many of my applications it's because

00:11:23   I that is a way to make more money

00:11:25   probably than I would from paid apps and

00:11:27   for I mean it's a bit I haven't done too

00:11:29   many of these now because most of my

00:11:31   apps I just I like my default is that

00:11:33   the app will be free with some other

00:11:35   form of revenue whether that's an in-app

00:11:37   purchase or ads or probably both but

00:11:40   back in the day I used to do the kind of

00:11:42   way you'd have the like ad version that

00:11:44   was free and the paid version that was

00:11:46   you know you let you charge for and was

00:11:48   like people could choose like do you

00:11:50   want the ad free or the other one and

00:11:52   there was a time when they sort of gave

00:11:54   each other a run for their money but I

00:11:56   don't know probably for the least the

00:11:57   last three or four years it's been in

00:12:00   almost entirely in the free like and I

00:12:02   know this is my own behavior

00:12:03   like that's in some ways the expectation

00:12:05   for apps in the App Store now is that

00:12:08   they're going to be free to free to

00:12:10   download and there may be some other

00:12:11   things that are have it either

00:12:13   advertising or an in-app purchase later

00:12:15   but if it's not free you just there's a

00:12:17   massive wall and it feels like the wall

00:12:19   is getting bigger and bigger now and so

00:12:21   if you want to make your goal is to make

00:12:23   it like a living from it from an app

00:12:25   there's a very good chance that

00:12:26   advertising will need to be something

00:12:28   that you at least strongly consider if

00:12:30   not implement and use in your

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00:14:18   under the radar in all of real afm so

00:14:21   getting back to I add what was the

00:14:24   announcement so the announcement said

00:14:25   that they were shutting down the app

00:14:26   network can you go into what that was

00:14:28   and what's left this is all very

00:14:31   ambiguous and as somebody who like I

00:14:33   said makes a very substantial amount of

00:14:35   my revenue from I had I've tried my best

00:14:37   to understand this be both from the

00:14:40   official announcement they made and the

00:14:42   various bits are like rumors are like

00:14:44   leaks or other things that sort of like

00:14:46   before Apple actually made their

00:14:47   official announcement there was a bunch

00:14:49   of articles from all over the place

00:14:50   because people kind of talking about

00:14:51   that Apple was going to be scaling down

00:14:53   their sales team they were going to be

00:14:55   changing things around so like they

00:14:57   specifically said that the iadapt

00:14:59   network will be discontinued as of June

00:15:02   30th of this year although we are no

00:15:04   longer accepting new ads into the apps

00:15:06   into the network advertising campaigns

00:15:08   will continue to run and be still

00:15:10   earning advertising revenue until June

00:15:12   30th as best I understand like the

00:15:14   iadapt network is one it's a term I was

00:15:18   I spent the last like a couple of days

00:15:20   trying to find a definition for what

00:15:22   that actually means and I haven't found

00:15:24   any like hits it the exactly like it

00:15:28   could be that the app network is the

00:15:30   power

00:15:30   if I add right now that you use two if I

00:15:34   wanted to promote my app like I could

00:15:35   put make an ad for pedometer plus plus I

00:15:38   could put it into my ad and then other

00:15:40   apps that are showing I ads would be

00:15:43   sure you know then promoting it for me

00:15:44   and I'd pay for that it could be that I

00:15:47   think it's also possible that it's the

00:15:49   sort of the whole way that which ads are

00:15:51   being collected and aggregated right now

00:15:53   both from that and then from the

00:15:55   original thing like back in 2010 when I

00:15:58   had was first launched it was supposed

00:15:59   to be about big brands and you know

00:16:01   there was Steve Jobs talked up on the

00:16:02   stage talking about how they were gonna

00:16:04   partner with all these big brands to

00:16:06   make these really emotional experiences

00:16:08   and you know to raise and elevate the

00:16:11   thing which I thought lasted like a

00:16:12   month didn't last very long that's it

00:16:15   that's probably fair to say I remember

00:16:16   there was a like because a Nissan Leaf

00:16:18   had won there were a couple of like big

00:16:21   brands that had them but it just didn't

00:16:22   seem I think it might have literally

00:16:23   only been a couple yeah

00:16:25   and that never really went anywhere and

00:16:27   so I don't think it's that but it seems

00:16:28   like the I had as we know it now is

00:16:31   going to be going away from what other

00:16:34   not necessarily from Apple's direct

00:16:36   announcements but from some of the other

00:16:37   leaks it sounds like they are going to

00:16:38   be continuing to there will continue to

00:16:41   be an i ad framework in iOS I'm not

00:16:45   completely sure on that like it's

00:16:46   possible in iOS 10 that it's just gonna

00:16:48   go away

00:16:48   that would seem a little weird but it's

00:16:51   possible and it may be replaced by

00:16:53   something more how griff mcore

00:16:55   straightforward or it's entirely

00:16:56   possible that Apple is just gonna sort

00:16:58   of back away from this whole thing I

00:17:00   mean I think the reality though is

00:17:01   either way whatever is going to happen

00:17:02   as of June 30th the revenue models that

00:17:06   are based like my own on you know

00:17:08   substantially hanai ad are likely going

00:17:10   to need to be prepared for a change

00:17:13   exactly what that looks like I'm still

00:17:15   honestly working out for myself but

00:17:17   whatever we're do whatever it is it's

00:17:19   likely not going to be as performant in

00:17:21   terms of revenue or as from a fill rate

00:17:23   perspective and all these things as you

00:17:25   know the major thing they're doing now

00:17:27   because it definitely doesn't sound like

00:17:28   they're just like oh we're going to

00:17:30   taking what we have and going in a

00:17:31   different direction there's definitely

00:17:32   like we're discontinuing a large swath

00:17:34   of this I'm going to be potentially

00:17:37   replacing it with something or maybe not

00:17:38   at all but it's definitely a big massive

00:17:41   change if you use I ad

00:17:43   coming you know coming in in June

00:17:45   presumably like you know right after WWC

00:17:48   maybe like going at bill announced or

00:17:50   cheering WC they'll announce what's

00:17:52   going to replace it or what we need to

00:17:53   do which will be a little short notice

00:17:54   but something's definitely coming yeah I

00:17:58   mean it's interesting like if you think

00:17:59   back about like why I ad was created in

00:18:02   the first place it was to to basically

00:18:04   like Apple saw that ad networks on

00:18:06   mobile were becoming a thing ad funded

00:18:08   apps for life had become you know a big

00:18:10   revenue stream and they were all these

00:18:12   kind of creepy ad companies coming in

00:18:15   and trying to make these kind of crappy

00:18:17   atom beds for apps and so I imagine the

00:18:21   reason I ad exists is because Apple you

00:18:23   know Steve said it right and say she

00:18:24   said in that announcement that like

00:18:26   these things frankly suck and that we

00:18:28   think we can do better and you know

00:18:30   Apple wanted what they want to control

00:18:32   over this monetization method for

00:18:34   themselves but it didn't really play out

00:18:36   that way what what has played out is

00:18:38   turns out Apple is not not a very good

00:18:40   ad company it just seems like it's not

00:18:42   the kind of thing Apple is good at we

00:18:45   especially with all their stances on

00:18:46   privacy and everything else like it just

00:18:48   seems like running and running a big ad

00:18:49   network kind of conflicts with what they

00:18:52   do but the it maybe it's the lesser of

00:18:55   two evils because you know like the if

00:18:57   they don't run the ad network then the

00:18:59   third-party ad networks are the only

00:19:01   choice for developers who have ad

00:19:03   supported apps rather than just being

00:19:05   like a backup choice so I wonder like

00:19:08   you know assuming it's an men see when I

00:19:11   first heard the the the app network was

00:19:14   being heard and I thought they meant

00:19:15   those little templates developers could

00:19:17   use to just make their you know rather

00:19:18   than having the whole interactive

00:19:19   experience it was like this template

00:19:20   that you as any any developer could sign

00:19:23   up and you basically get like an image

00:19:24   and the if you if it was tapped it would

00:19:26   show like a little App Store slide up

00:19:27   sheet so you wouldn't have to really do

00:19:29   any custom programming there wouldn't be

00:19:31   any custom interactivity it would just

00:19:32   be a banner image for your app and

00:19:34   people tap it and it shows the App Store

00:19:35   page and I actually I did you ever pay

00:19:39   for those do you ever buy those before

00:19:40   I've tried them they never worked for me

00:19:43   I mean I think they only work for an

00:19:44   application that you are going if you

00:19:47   are like really going if the value of a

00:19:50   each customer to you is quite a lot you

00:19:52   know which I imagine if you're one of

00:19:54   these like free-to-play game kind of

00:19:56   things you can probably get two

00:19:57   where you know if you're paying a few

00:19:59   dollars to acquire a new user that's

00:20:01   actually worthwhile to you overall

00:20:03   because you know the average value of a

00:20:05   customer is bigger than that but for me

00:20:08   it never made sense like even for my

00:20:09   paid applications there's my average

00:20:11   that the amount of money I typically

00:20:13   would get from somebody is just so low

00:20:15   in comparison that it just never made

00:20:17   sense yeah that's too bad so so it could

00:20:21   be that they're shutting that down

00:20:22   because the economics have just made it

00:20:24   not that effective for most developers

00:20:26   or it could be that the app network

00:20:28   might mean running all AI ads in

00:20:31   people's apps in which case they would

00:20:33   just because like the the new Apple news

00:20:35   app still uses I ad and so maybe they're

00:20:38   saying everything else is being shut

00:20:41   down except for the ones running in

00:20:42   Apple's own apps or maybe they're saying

00:20:45   only those you know special developer

00:20:47   template ones are getting shipped and

00:20:48   who knows but assuming it's assuming

00:20:50   it's the former that like that nobody

00:20:53   will be able to use I ad in their apps

00:20:54   anymore which which is which would be

00:20:56   the part that you're thinking would

00:20:58   probably be like the worst case scenario

00:20:59   here where would you go

00:21:01   what would you do next like are there

00:21:03   third-party options that are any good is

00:21:05   is there any kind of like clear winner

00:21:08   like what what is that what is the

00:21:09   landscape like as far as you know so

00:21:12   this is the part that makes me really

00:21:14   sad like with this news and I totally

00:21:17   understand you know it's like it's

00:21:18   always been a bit of an odd thing for

00:21:20   Apple to be in the advertising business

00:21:21   because so much of what they do is

00:21:23   completely orthogonal to that like

00:21:25   they're not in general they're all about

00:21:27   like having a really strong privacy and

00:21:29   having all kinds of things like that

00:21:30   that are all about like we want to know

00:21:32   is at least about you and do we're gonna

00:21:34   give you a premium experience which is

00:21:36   typically not the advertising model and

00:21:40   sort of always liked is that like hey

00:21:41   they have this advertising network and

00:21:43   so I can kind of like why I just I don't

00:21:46   actually use and do any backfilling in

00:21:48   any of my apps like I don't do the thing

00:21:50   where it's like even though I don't get

00:21:51   100% Phil I'm okay with that because I'm

00:21:54   like you know what my ads are good and

00:21:55   I've never had like seen a Naiad in my

00:21:57   application that made me feel really

00:22:00   uncomfortable like I don't feel great

00:22:01   about some of them but you notice if you

00:22:03   with just like if you just open the

00:22:06   floodgates to like every advertiser

00:22:07   every ad ever we all kind of know where

00:22:10   that goes like you

00:22:11   look at the web right now the kind of

00:22:13   ads that you start to see at the bottom

00:22:15   of like hey if you liked this story you

00:22:16   may also like these other stories about

00:22:18   like horrible things or just total scams

00:22:20   like yeah like it's it's it's terrible

00:22:23   and that's where ultimately I imagine a

00:22:25   lot of advertising will go in Apps as

00:22:28   well and I like that at least I felt

00:22:29   like you know like apple with I ad was

00:22:31   like a firewall against that and I could

00:22:33   say you know but okay maybe I'm making a

00:22:36   bit less money doing this but I feel

00:22:38   confident that what I'm gonna end up

00:22:39   with isn't like terrible and make me

00:22:42   feel squirm and you know I'm gonna get

00:22:43   screenshots from people being like look

00:22:45   at the ad that your app we're showing me

00:22:46   and for you know for some awful thing so

00:22:49   where I'm going now is kind of a weird

00:22:51   and open question like there are so many

00:22:55   ad networks that's like it's kind of

00:22:58   crazy and a lot of them have like really

00:23:00   complicated or confusing names you know

00:23:02   like we have AdMob ad colony ad Falcon

00:23:05   ad rally mod Fox tap it fado be a

00:23:08   vongole tap jump is real these are

00:23:13   actual ones that I was recently just

00:23:14   like I was quickly before we were

00:23:16   preparing I was like pulling in these

00:23:17   names and I'm like those are some ad

00:23:18   networks that exist right now and it

00:23:20   sounds like like parody names yeah but

00:23:23   like that's what we have and there's

00:23:24   dozens of them and I mean I imagine the

00:23:26   biggest ones like AdMob is probably one

00:23:28   of the bigger ones because it's run by

00:23:29   Google who is obviously like one of the

00:23:31   biggest advertising companies in the

00:23:32   world if not the biggest

00:23:33   I'm sure Apple loves that there's you

00:23:36   think you can do some things with

00:23:37   Facebook there's a few others that are

00:23:39   kind of big but what I'm gonna facing

00:23:42   now is like it's this weird question of

00:23:44   like well do I just pick another one and

00:23:46   hope for the best do I use kind of an

00:23:47   aggregator which is a lot of the way a

00:23:50   lot of people do this type of thing

00:23:51   where you'll download this big massive

00:23:55   blob of like third-party code you'll

00:23:57   shove it into your application and it

00:23:59   includes the all the SDKs for like

00:24:01   dozens of different advertising networks

00:24:04   and you'll sign up for all of them and

00:24:05   you'll kind of be bidding back and forth

00:24:07   between them so that whoever has the

00:24:09   best ad for you right now you'll show

00:24:11   and they'll switch between them

00:24:12   dynamically but like the more you do

00:24:15   that the less control you ultimately

00:24:17   have and what you're showing in your app

00:24:19   and also like thing that always makes me

00:24:21   nervous is now like the more third-party

00:24:24   code I have

00:24:24   put in my application like that's really

00:24:26   scary both from like customer privacy

00:24:29   concerns and things like they could be

00:24:32   doing all kinds of things in my

00:24:33   applications that I maybe wouldn't

00:24:35   really like you know it's like you for

00:24:38   all I know like they're gonna be popping

00:24:39   up all kinds of permission requests in

00:24:42   my application that my customers assume

00:24:44   are me asking for it rather than them

00:24:47   like that's not something that they

00:24:48   could entirely do because I'm running

00:24:50   their code that I probably can't see the

00:24:53   source Oh not to mention like making

00:24:55   Network requests or anything like that I

00:24:57   mean like or even even just like like

00:24:59   any kind of use of like private API is

00:25:02   if they get in trouble for that then

00:25:03   really you're getting in trouble for

00:25:04   that like it's it's a huge risk yeah and

00:25:07   I love that I add at least like it was a

00:25:09   system framework like it shipped in the

00:25:11   OS I had to bundle nothing it was just

00:25:13   in the same way if that's just like me

00:25:14   including you're using healthkit in my

00:25:17   application or using AV foundation like

00:25:19   using I add there's just a thing and if

00:25:21   I'm not going to be able to do that like

00:25:22   at some point I'm going to have to

00:25:24   include some code that I don't really

00:25:27   want to include or I have to decide that

00:25:30   you know what I'm just going to have to

00:25:32   radically change my business and move

00:25:34   away from this because there's

00:25:37   ultimately like there's going to be some

00:25:38   kind of a line that I have to find

00:25:40   between like how comfortable I am I with

00:25:43   you know whoever they are and I'm sure

00:25:44   if I talk to the the salesman at these

00:25:46   various companies I'm sure that all the

00:25:47   oh no we're you know we take privacy

00:25:49   very importantly very seriously it's

00:25:50   very important to us oh sure but like I

00:25:53   felt comfortable when Apple did that but

00:25:55   I there's very few companies that I

00:25:57   would feel comfortable about that and

00:25:59   ultimately I'll probably like my gut

00:26:01   says I'll end up at least experiment

00:26:02   least initially planning to go to

00:26:04   something like Google if not not because

00:26:06   I think Google's are you know like a not

00:26:08   creepy company but at least they're big

00:26:09   enough company that if they were doing

00:26:13   something truly dubious like it would be

00:26:16   well known and they would probably be

00:26:18   held more accountable to it than like

00:26:19   some kind of fly-by-night VC funded

00:26:22   thing that just sort of appeared one day

00:26:24   and I was like oh you know we have great

00:26:25   rates and awesome ads like maybe you do

00:26:28   but I don't really you don't have a lot

00:26:30   of history there in a way that you know

00:26:32   more unless worried like if goo if

00:26:33   Google's beings really sketchy at least

00:26:35   I'm at there's people who are going to

00:26:37   know that

00:26:38   and like you know hold them accountable

00:26:40   to that at least somewhat but I don't

00:26:43   know it's really something that I'm kind

00:26:45   of struggling with through right now is

00:26:46   exactly where I'm gonna go cuz you know

00:26:48   if I had truly did just go away and just

00:26:51   disappeared from my app it's like there

00:26:53   goes you know 40% of my business like in

00:26:57   terms of revenue just disappeared and so

00:26:58   I need to work out how far down that

00:27:01   road I feel comfortable with with you

00:27:03   know like other people's code other

00:27:05   people's that you know showing things in

00:27:09   maps that really maybe I don't agree

00:27:10   with or like but you know ultimately I

00:27:14   have to ship a product that I feel

00:27:16   comfortable with so it's gonna be a

00:27:18   really interesting next couple of months

00:27:19   as I'd kind of filter through that

00:27:21   all right well best of luck I think your

00:27:23   plan sounds about right I think I agree

00:27:25   that you know going to go into like one

00:27:28   of the biggest companies that is most

00:27:30   reputable and you know admob or Google

00:27:32   it like you know but that that makes the

00:27:33   most sense I think you're right I think

00:27:35   like even though any ad company is

00:27:38   creepy to some degree I think the the

00:27:40   giant ones like Google like that's

00:27:42   probably they're probably the least

00:27:43   creepy among a bunch of very creepy

00:27:46   companies yeah like the smaller ones are

00:27:48   way scarier to me so all right oh that's

00:27:51   I think that wraps it up for today and

00:27:53   best of luck with that and I hope I'm

00:27:55   sure we'll be talking about this more as

00:27:57   as you get new experience with these

00:27:59   things over time and so I look forward

00:28:01   to hearing more about it and as as this

00:28:03   whole thing unfolds yeah so thanks a lot

00:28:06   to everybody for listening please

00:28:08   recommend us an overcast and if you can

00:28:11   reviews on iTunes if anybody still uses

00:28:12   that and we will talk to you next week

00:28:15   thank you for everyone for listening and

00:28:16   we'll see you next week bye