Under the Radar

Under the Radar 9: State of the Apple Watch


00:00:00   welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02   independent iOS development I'm Marco

00:00:04   Arment and I'm David Smith under the

00:00:06   radar is never longer than 30 minutes so

00:00:08   let's get started so today I think what

00:00:12   we wanted to dive into and talk a bit

00:00:13   about is the sort of the state of the

00:00:16   Apple watch as an app platform and we're

00:00:19   going to talk a little bit about my own

00:00:20   experience recently doing a lot of watch

00:00:23   OS work essentially the last quarter of

00:00:26   2015 all I did was work on watch apps a

00:00:30   little bit my experience there and then

00:00:32   also kind of looking forward to what we

00:00:35   think could make the Apple watch a

00:00:37   better platform than it is today for

00:00:38   apps and app developers my big app that

00:00:42   I launched last year was sleepless plus

00:00:45   which is a watch app we're not gonna

00:00:46   talk too much about it but it was all

00:00:48   about the watch it's a sleep tracker and

00:00:49   motion tracker and then after I got that

00:00:51   out the door I spent a lot of time

00:00:53   working on pedometer plus plus for Apple

00:00:56   watch which was pedometer plus plus is a

00:00:58   step counter sort of fitness tracker

00:01:00   that had mostly been on the on the

00:01:02   phones for a long time and I had

00:01:05   originally done a watch OS 1 app for it

00:01:08   but it was very limited because at that

00:01:11   time watch OS 1 apps run on your Renick

00:01:14   all entirely ran on the phone and so

00:01:16   there was no way to get the watch's data

00:01:18   actually to just be displayed on the

00:01:21   watch which is a little bit weird so

00:01:22   like you if you only wore the watch all

00:01:25   day long and you then you like start the

00:01:27   watch app it would be only be showing

00:01:29   you data from your phone's activity

00:01:31   which was weird

00:01:32   watch rest whoo I could finally fix that

00:01:33   and so I spent what I thought would be a

00:01:35   few weeks turned out to be a few months

00:01:37   getting the data sync portion of that

00:01:40   together so that the watch app now

00:01:41   displays like this merged set of data

00:01:43   between the watch and the phone and that

00:01:49   took a lot longer than I think mostly

00:01:50   because like sync is as I was always

00:01:52   like sync is hard there's a lot of

00:01:53   really complicated things here and it's

00:01:55   not even like regular user data sync

00:01:58   where there's some basic rules about it

00:01:59   it's is like it's it's trying I have to

00:02:03   analyze your activity through the day

00:02:04   and work out what number to show for

00:02:08   your step count as you go through it but

00:02:10   I got through all that and you know ship

00:02:12   the app

00:02:13   of December in 2015 and one thing that I

00:02:18   did that I was very glad I did is I

00:02:20   included a bunch of little analytics

00:02:22   about the watch apps use because I

00:02:26   wanted to see how it's actually being

00:02:29   used in practice and initially when I

00:02:33   launched looked like something right

00:02:36   around eleven percent of people who were

00:02:40   using pedometer plus plus had Apple

00:02:42   watches that's pretty good yeah which is

00:02:44   pretty good it's better than I thought

00:02:46   it was I was expecting the number

00:02:47   probably to be liked like four or five

00:02:49   maybe so 11 is pretty good and after

00:02:52   Christmas it's now up to about 13 and a

00:02:54   half percent of phenomenal plus plus

00:02:57   users you know have an Apple watch

00:02:59   paired it's kind of interesting like

00:03:02   it's building something for a relatively

00:03:06   narrow group of my users but I think was

00:03:08   still valuable to do and hopefully that

00:03:12   percentage will grow over time and of

00:03:14   course it's funny like of that you know

00:03:16   over the 13 and 1/2 percent people who

00:03:18   have watches something like 80% of them

00:03:20   have the watch app installed and then

00:03:22   20% of them are using the complication

00:03:24   which was probably the most employed the

00:03:27   for my perspective is like the coolest

00:03:28   part of the app was the complication so

00:03:30   you can see your step counts grow but

00:03:32   only 20% of people who have watches use

00:03:36   it which is something like 2% overall so

00:03:39   that's a bit mixed but that's sort of

00:03:41   the way these things go I think yeah

00:03:44   that that part is interesting I mean you

00:03:46   know you talk about like like how how do

00:03:49   you decide how whether to whether to do

00:03:51   a feature like this that's gonna require

00:03:53   tons and tons of work you know because

00:03:55   you're really you know building this

00:03:56   whole thing from scratch really on this

00:03:57   different platform and everything and

00:03:58   then it ends up that you know 2% of your

00:04:01   user base will ever use it is is that is

00:04:05   that worth doing or when is it worth

00:04:06   doing yeah and so it's I've definitely

00:04:10   gone through like several phases with

00:04:11   this we're like when I first saw that

00:04:13   number I was like like crying inside is

00:04:17   so much it took so much and like I loved

00:04:19   it like it's I use it all the time it's

00:04:21   a I think it's a great feature and so I

00:04:22   like in some ways like I'm I'm I can

00:04:26   remind myself that

00:04:27   if it's a feature that I personally use

00:04:28   and it takes some time to build like at

00:04:30   least I'll use it I'll enjoy it and so

00:04:33   and like these things will get better

00:04:34   over time

00:04:36   but it's definitely what if I'd known

00:04:38   that number up front I'm not sure it

00:04:41   would have been as easy to justify

00:04:43   development on this because overall I

00:04:47   wouldn't say adding watch support to the

00:04:49   app has had a significant impact in its

00:04:51   sales there's a very small bump in sales

00:04:55   when I released the update just as you

00:04:58   sort of normally get from like little

00:05:00   press outlets picking it up or it's like

00:05:02   slightly new and slightly noteworthy but

00:05:05   beyond that like the app wasn't featured

00:05:07   which kind of surprised me which is

00:05:09   weird thing to say like I don't be like

00:05:10   stuck up oh they should have featured me

00:05:11   but like because as far as I'm concern

00:05:15   in terms of new apps on the watch I was

00:05:16   kind of more hopeful than I would

00:05:18   normally get my hopes up for for getting

00:05:20   featured and that didn't happen so it's

00:05:21   like from a sales perspective it didn't

00:05:23   really add too much and so when I look

00:05:28   at it it's like I'm glad I did it but

00:05:30   mostly not for like right now I think

00:05:33   it's more better if it's more important

00:05:35   as a get it like keeping the app

00:05:38   relevant keeping the app current and not

00:05:42   creating a big gap between like where

00:05:46   the state of the art would be and where

00:05:48   the app is and like that's a good and

00:05:51   important thing because pedometer plus

00:05:52   plus is like it's my biggest earning app

00:05:55   and so it's important to me that it's

00:05:57   like well taken care of but the actual

00:06:00   details and when you see things like

00:06:01   yeah like a pretty small percentage of

00:06:03   people are actually using it it's a hard

00:06:05   thing to say that's interesting I mean

00:06:07   and and I wonder how much of it is like

00:06:10   being even being featured and and having

00:06:12   this kind of like you know any kind of

00:06:14   like app store prominence I wonder what

00:06:16   the value of being featured really is

00:06:18   for watch apps because not only of

00:06:21   course do fewer people have Apple

00:06:22   watches which you know would be a

00:06:24   separate issue but even as somebody who

00:06:27   uses using Apple watch for like you know

00:06:30   seven or eight months or were however

00:06:32   long it's been

00:06:33   I never browsed the App Store for new

00:06:36   watch apps and I wonder like it just

00:06:38   took the pattern of using the watch and

00:06:40   being a watch owner

00:06:41   how often do you go browsing the app

00:06:43   store for new watch apps compared to how

00:06:45   often you go for the phone link in the

00:06:46   phone you launch the app store Apple you

00:06:48   know if you're kind of bored looking for

00:06:50   new stuff you launch the app store a

00:06:51   browser and you see what's featured to

00:06:52   see the top lists on the watch I mean

00:06:55   you like as an Apple watch user do you

00:06:57   how often do you open the the watch app

00:06:59   store if ever is there I mean I guess

00:07:02   you look you launch the companion app

00:07:04   and you can go in there and browse the

00:07:05   apps there but does anybody actually do

00:07:07   that I don't know like it's like people

00:07:12   are definitely finding the apps

00:07:13   somewhere because like sleep us+ is only

00:07:15   a watch app like without a lot I've had

00:07:17   on Apple watch it's completely useless

00:07:18   and it's had a pretty strong uptick in

00:07:22   terms of people finding it so I don't

00:07:23   know exactly where they're finding it

00:07:25   from I don't it's word of mouth if it's

00:07:27   just like people finding it online or

00:07:31   whatever but they're deafening it's

00:07:32   somewhere like mostly when I go into the

00:07:35   companion app and it has like the two

00:07:37   tabs or you think you can search and

00:07:38   there's a featured area there like I go

00:07:41   in there mostly just to kind of see if

00:07:44   there's anything new and interesting but

00:07:46   not as much for myself and there is

00:07:48   certainly something aspect to it that

00:07:50   the nature of the watch and the way that

00:07:52   it's kind of more of a like a glancing

00:07:55   interaction model where you're not gonna

00:07:58   be just like sitting down and if you're

00:08:00   bored like browsing around on thing or

00:08:02   like you know with your phone like if

00:08:03   you're you're bored you have some time

00:08:05   you're on a train or something like

00:08:06   you're gonna spend a lot of time you

00:08:08   could quite easily be like oh let me go

00:08:09   see if there's a new game or something

00:08:11   new - interesting - go or you know look

00:08:13   on the internet and you know read reddit

00:08:15   or RSS or Twitter or slack or whatever

00:08:17   it is like whereas on the watch once you

00:08:20   kind of have your use case that you are

00:08:22   comfortable with like whatever it's

00:08:24   doing like and so for this case it's

00:08:26   like it's unless you're really look like

00:08:28   looking - how could I make my watch a

00:08:31   better fitness tracker for me beyond

00:08:33   like the built-in activity app for

00:08:35   example like I don't know if you're

00:08:37   really gonna go looking for that in the

00:08:38   same way because like there's no app

00:08:41   store on the watch itself like there's

00:08:43   no little watch icon that you know you

00:08:44   go to the honeycomb screen and then hit

00:08:47   App Store and it shows you a bunch of

00:08:48   apps and I mean I think it's probably

00:08:50   for the best like I'm not sure if that

00:08:52   would actually be a good interaction but

00:08:55   but with the lack of that like I don't

00:08:56   know how you would find good watch apps

00:08:58   other than just going to the companion

00:09:00   app which is a really odd place to go

00:09:02   anyway cuz it's not part of the App

00:09:04   Store like in some ways it seems like it

00:09:06   should be in the App Store like you

00:09:10   could replace that middle was it the

00:09:11   what's it now the Explorer tab the one

00:09:13   that's changed like 10 times it's like

00:09:15   if if you have a watch it should be like

00:09:17   maybe that should be like you know a

00:09:19   watch or TV OS or like all the different

00:09:21   like all these other secondary platforms

00:09:24   that are harder to find apps for then

00:09:26   like maybe it should be fine there but

00:09:28   yeah I don't know it's it's a weird

00:09:31   thing to to think how people actually

00:09:33   find watch apps these days I really

00:09:35   don't know I mean to some degree the

00:09:37   value of having a watch app is political

00:09:39   with Apple in the sense that Apple is

00:09:43   more likely to promote apps that take

00:09:45   better advantage of all their platforms

00:09:47   and all their features so Apple is

00:09:49   probably happier to promote an iOS app

00:09:52   that has a nice companion watch app than

00:09:55   they would be to promote a similar iOS

00:09:57   app that has no watch app and so it you

00:10:00   know in some ways the the reason to have

00:10:02   a watch app and to take advantage of new

00:10:04   watch features is to increase the

00:10:07   likelihood of Apple featuring your your

00:10:09   iPhone you know but that doesn't really

00:10:12   help you if you're trying to figure out

00:10:14   like how much time to put into your

00:10:16   Apple watch app and and how to make it

00:10:18   more useful and I wonder I mean I was

00:10:21   kind of expecting that you mentioned

00:10:23   that the the percentage of pedometer

00:10:25   plus plus users with the Apple watch

00:10:27   before and after Christmas did increase

00:10:30   but it's increases because I would have

00:10:31   expected you said it went from like 11

00:10:33   to about 13% is that right yeah went up

00:10:35   two and a half percent from 11 to 13 and

00:10:36   a half yeah so that I would have

00:10:39   expected a bigger jump from that

00:10:41   honestly and and I've heard from a few

00:10:44   people here and there I've picked up a

00:10:46   few other little tidbits of like app

00:10:47   sales for watch people and almost all of

00:10:51   them reportedly noticeable jump like on

00:10:53   Christmas Day and the day after compared

00:10:56   to what it was previously so I think

00:10:58   it's clear that there are a lot of

00:10:59   watches out there and and that there are

00:11:01   a lot that were given as gifts for

00:11:03   Christmas this year but I I would have

00:11:06   expected the jump to be bigger

00:11:08   so in terms of like absolute numbers

00:11:10   here I mean obviously nothing's gonna be

00:11:12   as big as the iPhone install base on day

00:11:14   one or even in year one or even in year

00:11:17   five for that matter but I wonder are

00:11:21   there enough watch owners out there to

00:11:23   to make this worth doing yet maybe the

00:11:27   best thing to answer to that is I don't

00:11:28   I can't think of anyone who I'm aware of

00:11:31   who has had like a runaway success on

00:11:34   the watch with most promotions like new

00:11:37   platforms I mean we have a little bit of

00:11:39   this problem the TV as well but like

00:11:40   there is with the iPhone and certainly

00:11:42   with the iPad there were you know

00:11:44   stories of people who put a lot of time

00:11:46   and effort like really made a good app

00:11:48   and there was enough uptick from the

00:11:51   customer side and a strong and a fine

00:11:54   financial part of that that it was like

00:11:56   wow you know like they have like the

00:11:57   overnight success and I'm not aware of

00:12:00   static of that on the watch at this

00:12:03   point like so it's I think it's a good

00:12:05   thing to do from in terms if you want to

00:12:08   build a fully featured robust or a fully

00:12:12   rounded app like it's part part of like

00:12:14   part of that bar now probably includes a

00:12:16   watch app but I D I don't want sure if

00:12:19   there's a strong direct incentive for it

00:12:22   that like if you build a watch what

00:12:24   watch app your app will be more

00:12:26   successful it's a bit more soft than

00:12:29   that and like if anything honestly for

00:12:31   me like part of why I got into watch

00:12:33   apps is it was an area that I think is

00:12:36   growing I don't think it has grown yet

00:12:40   and so part of me was like I just want

00:12:42   to be an expert at this platform that I

00:12:46   think in two or three years which is a

00:12:50   bit of a long game to be playing but

00:12:52   like in several years will be more

00:12:54   increasingly relevant I'd rather be an

00:12:57   expert on it like the only way you can

00:13:00   have you know five years experience in

00:13:02   five years is to have started now and I

00:13:05   didn't want to describe so like you know

00:13:06   the old joke when you've people who want

00:13:08   like eight years Swift experience now or

00:13:11   something like it's like well you can't

00:13:12   really do that but if you start on day

00:13:14   one at the very least you can have as

00:13:16   mote them the most that you can and so

00:13:18   like since watch OS or watch kit back

00:13:20   then

00:13:20   watchkit one was out like it's just

00:13:23   something that I think is important for

00:13:25   my fur life I think that I enjoy and

00:13:27   it's an important for my business down

00:13:29   the road to continue to be good at but

00:13:31   in like in then here and now it's a much

00:13:34   squishy or like it's like a baby it's

00:13:36   good

00:13:37   maybe it'll increase slightly the chance

00:13:39   that someone will download it or that

00:13:41   Apple will feature it or something like

00:13:44   that but it's a much it's not a direct

00:13:46   like cause and effect like this will

00:13:48   help make your app more successful I

00:13:50   think at this point anyway III think

00:13:53   though it is you know making it more

00:13:54   more likely that Apple will feature it

00:13:56   and I think it also it also plays into

00:13:58   like for the chances of your iOS app

00:14:00   succeeding it also plays into like first

00:14:02   of all like the people who have watches

00:14:04   even though it's a small percentage of

00:14:06   iPhone users it's not a random percent

00:14:08   it isn't a random subset it is like it

00:14:11   is it is kind of like the the early

00:14:12   adopters the people who are willing to

00:14:15   spend spend more money probably and able

00:14:17   to spend more money so like it is it is

00:14:19   a market that I think is it has outsized

00:14:22   relevance compared to its actual numbers

00:14:24   and also it it can be used as as a

00:14:28   feature comparison so like if I'm

00:14:29   looking to two different pedometer apps

00:14:30   in the App Store and I have an Apple

00:14:32   watch and one of them has a watch app

00:14:34   and one doesn't then even if I don't

00:14:37   intend to use that watch app or even if

00:14:39   I think I'll use it and in reality never

00:14:41   would and therefore wouldn't show up in

00:14:42   those numbers I think I'm more likely to

00:14:44   pick the one with the watch app because

00:14:46   you know it's like people who buy like a

00:14:50   giant SUV because they might someday go

00:14:53   off-road with it yeah even if they never

00:14:55   do which most never do that's still it

00:14:57   that that is a selling point to them up

00:14:59   front where like they might choose like

00:15:01   so people might choose your app even if

00:15:03   they have never planned even if they

00:15:05   have no plans to ever use the watch if

00:15:06   they might choose your app simply

00:15:08   because it has a watch app over someone

00:15:10   else's that doesn't so it there is more

00:15:12   value to it I think up front for an i/o

00:15:14   site but that that argument becomes less

00:15:17   relevant when you're talking about apps

00:15:18   that run only or primarily on the watch

00:15:21   like sleep plus plus you know like you

00:15:23   know apps where like the iPhone app is

00:15:25   basically non-existent or unimportant

00:15:27   and so I think it's it's hard to argue

00:15:30   today for spending a ton of time with a

00:15:33   watch I bet it's it's easy to

00:15:34   argue for having a watch app for a

00:15:38   four-year Iowa for your existing iOS app

00:15:40   if it's relevant to have one but it's

00:15:42   harder to argue for spending a whole lot

00:15:44   of time on it does that make sense yeah

00:15:47   I think so and it's also probably

00:15:49   keeping in mind that a really good watch

00:15:52   app is by its nature very simple and so

00:15:58   on the like one thing that if it's like

00:16:01   it's probably it's important to make

00:16:03   sure that you don't think of a watch app

00:16:05   as a fully-fledged like really

00:16:08   complicated sophisticated thing like

00:16:09   it's for to do well it should really

00:16:12   only probably have like one or two

00:16:14   actions that you can take or like what

00:16:17   like sleep loss plus for example like

00:16:19   has one button that in the entire app

00:16:21   and that's it and I think that works

00:16:24   well for it because all it does is you

00:16:26   say like I'm going to sleep I'm waking

00:16:27   up from sleep and it's just you know so

00:16:29   like a toggle button on and off and like

00:16:33   pedometer plus plus is the only from an

00:16:35   action perspective is the same thing

00:16:36   like you can say like I'm going for a

00:16:37   walk and it'll start you know I would

00:16:39   work out where it tracks your heart rate

00:16:41   and all kinds of other stuff and then

00:16:42   you get to the end of your workout and

00:16:43   you hit stop and so like it's it's nice

00:16:46   in that sense of like having a basic

00:16:48   watch app is a good thing

00:16:50   beyond rather than being like a

00:16:52   detriment it's actually probably a plus

00:16:53   and so trying to hit that basic level is

00:16:57   easier than it would be like if you

00:16:59   compared to say the same way to like I'm

00:17:01   having an iPad app like making your app

00:17:03   Universal having a iPad app that is

00:17:07   useful and fits on the platform is

00:17:09   probably a lot more work than a watch

00:17:11   app and so if you're looking for

00:17:13   something to like extend out your app a

00:17:15   little bit like you've got that basic

00:17:16   feature set lock down and you're like oh

00:17:18   what we know how could I make like add

00:17:20   that little like 5 percent boost like

00:17:22   you might be easier to add it on the

00:17:24   watch then it would be to like go to the

00:17:26   iPad or a platform like that that it

00:17:28   just would require a lot more of you

00:17:30   yeah all right this episode of under the

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00:19:17   radar thank you so much to igloo for

00:19:19   supporting under the radar and all of

00:19:21   relay fm so I wanted to spend the second

00:19:24   half of this now you know we talked in

00:19:26   the first half about the Apple watch

00:19:28   kind of the reality of being an Apple

00:19:31   watch developer today from your

00:19:33   perspective and you really are like one

00:19:35   of the world's most prominent Apple

00:19:37   watch developers honestly the Apple

00:19:39   watch today I think I think we've

00:19:41   figured out is not a great app

00:19:44   development platform yet what do you

00:19:46   think could make it a great app

00:19:48   development platform there's two aspects

00:19:52   to that like there's the hardware side

00:19:53   and the software side and like on the

00:19:56   hardware side like obviously the watch

00:19:58   will get better and

00:19:59   better and better and the more it gets

00:20:02   better the more easy like their the more

00:20:05   capable it will be like there'll be more

00:20:06   things that it will be able to do

00:20:08   because as it is right now like the

00:20:10   watch is kind of it's pretty slow it

00:20:13   doesn't have a lot of memory it's as a

00:20:15   result some of the way like the apps are

00:20:16   structured has to be kind of funny and

00:20:19   different than what you might like and

00:20:21   like those types of things will just

00:20:23   come and I would when I look at those

00:20:25   like I'm less worried about the choices

00:20:28   Apple will make there because I imagine

00:20:29   like just by Moore's law and the their

00:20:32   history like it'll keep getting faster

00:20:34   better have longer battery life like

00:20:37   battery life is a big one I think for me

00:20:39   because like one of the hardest things I

00:20:41   have come you know like for like C++ is

00:20:44   like keep telling people like oh you

00:20:45   wear it overnight so you don't charge it

00:20:47   overnight and like things like that or

00:20:49   much we much easier cells if the watch

00:20:51   had I don't even know like like a week

00:20:53   battery just like to be able to run all

00:20:55   the time or things like that and

00:20:57   hopefully over time also like as the

00:20:59   hardware gets better and it's more

00:21:00   compelling and there's just it's been

00:21:02   out for longer it'll be a bigger more

00:21:04   people with it and like that's a helpful

00:21:06   thing from a marketing perspective but I

00:21:10   think the biggest and more interesting

00:21:11   things are assuming that basic level of

00:21:14   like the hardware each year will get

00:21:16   better and like you know the Apple watch

00:21:18   that we have now is fairly old insofar

00:21:23   as like they announced it was it's

00:21:25   September of 2014 yeah it's it's like a

00:21:29   year and change old already yeah because

00:21:32   like that's what else it didn't ship

00:21:34   until you know April 2015

00:21:37   but like the hardware from at least what

00:21:39   they were showing and what its feature

00:21:41   set was and how capable it was was

00:21:43   locked down way back then and so I'm

00:21:47   hopeful the next one which who knows

00:21:49   maybe it'll come out in the spring I

00:21:51   think seems to be like where the most

00:21:52   sort of the best that like that they

00:21:54   even the best money right now would be

00:21:55   like sometime in spring there'll be a

00:21:57   new one like it could have a disparate

00:21:59   unlike a one year performance gain so

00:22:02   like assuming those like that be great I

00:22:04   really hope that we see a lot of changes

00:22:08   around just making it more capable which

00:22:11   is a weird thing to say but like they

00:22:12   like complications for example which I

00:22:14   think are like the watch face in general

00:22:17   like most in my own personal use almost

00:22:20   all of my use happens on that watch face

00:22:22   and that I would love to see that just

00:22:26   get better and better and better and

00:22:27   like the way it's structured now is very

00:22:30   much designed around battery life that

00:22:32   you know the watch face is only visible

00:22:35   when you flip your wrist up for example

00:22:37   which is frustrating sometimes like an

00:22:40   obviously oh no you can't have it on all

00:22:42   the time but even having something there

00:22:45   more persistently or being able to be

00:22:48   more aggressive about lighting up the

00:22:49   screen things like that could be really

00:22:51   helpful and as a result like

00:22:53   complications don't update very

00:22:55   frequently which I think you can from my

00:22:58   own test it's like you can update a

00:22:59   complication at most maybe about 40

00:23:03   times a day that's interesting like for

00:23:07   pedometer is a bit you know it's like a

00:23:08   case where I know that the most because

00:23:10   you can it's not like the data is

00:23:13   real-time so you know every time you

00:23:15   take a step your step count goes up by

00:23:17   one but I can only update the

00:23:19   complication you know whatever like

00:23:21   forty four th times a day maybe about

00:23:24   every half hour say and like I'd love to

00:23:27   see that get better to be more frequent

00:23:29   to be more semi real-time that obviously

00:23:33   there's timing things like part of why

00:23:35   Apple has the complication structured

00:23:37   such that you like send data and it's

00:23:39   like baked in for a particular period of

00:23:42   time is so that it's instantaneous when

00:23:44   you raise your wrist the data's are

00:23:45   ready there rather than like raising

00:23:47   your wrist and then loading the data I

00:23:49   think that's fair enough but making that

00:23:52   much more frequent and that's that's

00:23:54   kind of how like the entire the entire

00:23:56   watch OS is kind of developed that way

00:23:58   it kind of feels like the old Mac os10

00:24:01   dashboard where like everything is kind

00:24:04   of in the state of suspended animation

00:24:05   until you go and look at it at which

00:24:07   point you see old data and then a few

00:24:10   seconds later new data flashes in and or

00:24:14   or you go in and you see nothing and

00:24:16   then if you take and you did it so it's

00:24:17   like either way I don't love that as a

00:24:19   user or a developer and I recognize why

00:24:22   I have to do it because it does save a

00:24:24   whole lot of power

00:24:25   and this is really a very power and

00:24:28   especially CPU constrained device where

00:24:32   in memory so like they can't keep all

00:24:34   the stuff in memory they can't keep

00:24:35   refreshing it constantly but over time I

00:24:39   hope they can with with Hardware

00:24:41   improvements because the the idea of

00:24:44   like of having to go to a glance and

00:24:46   then wait a second or two for it to

00:24:48   update and then seeing new stuff pop in

00:24:50   its clunky and it's better than nothing

00:24:53   so like you know if that's what they had

00:24:54   to do to get this product at the door

00:24:55   this year with today's technology that's

00:24:58   great I'd rather have it than not have

00:24:59   it but it is really clunky and so once

00:25:03   it becomes possible to have basically

00:25:05   real-time updates and and to have things

00:25:08   always be running and being updated you

00:25:10   know on a much more frequent basis I

00:25:12   hope they choose to take advantage of

00:25:15   that and to allow that rather than to

00:25:18   just kind of Bank the power savings and

00:25:21   keep making this thing thinner you know

00:25:23   or something like that you know because

00:25:25   that would it would totally transform

00:25:27   the usefulness of apps and using apps on

00:25:30   this platform if we could have things be

00:25:33   refreshed more frequently and have

00:25:34   things be more real-time yeah and

00:25:36   there's certainly a limit to it in like

00:25:38   in the positive way that I think Apple

00:25:40   could probably get there is there's

00:25:41   obviously it doesn't have to be like

00:25:42   update every 30 seconds like there's a

00:25:46   probably some functional limit that

00:25:48   below which like once they're if they

00:25:50   can get rather than being updated every

00:25:52   30 minutes if I could update every I

00:25:55   don't know five minutes three minutes

00:25:57   like at a certain point it's it's good

00:25:59   enough and that kind of an improvement

00:26:02   it makes me more hopeful that we'll get

00:26:04   there because that kind of like the

00:26:07   battery life improvement that you would

00:26:09   imagine you'd have to have to get from

00:26:11   that like to compress it just that much

00:26:13   is more likely than if it was something

00:26:17   where you know you have a constantly

00:26:18   running socket connection from your

00:26:21   watch is probably not realistic but

00:26:25   hopefully we can get something like that

00:26:27   and then also I just hope that we can do

00:26:30   so much okay wait we can do custom watch

00:26:33   faces is something that I'd love to see

00:26:36   as well see that I would love custom

00:26:38   watch faces

00:26:39   but I'm not sure they'll ever actually

00:26:40   offer it that it's really the ADA that

00:26:42   is not a given but they will that Apple

00:26:44   will ever allow that but I would love

00:26:46   that I would that would get me very

00:26:49   interested in watch development if I

00:26:51   could make my own face for it and right

00:26:52   now all the faces and all the

00:26:55   complications they all have pretty

00:26:57   annoying limitations and pretty big

00:27:00   limitations or shortcomings in my

00:27:02   opinion or just just difference of

00:27:03   differences of opinion of how I would do

00:27:05   things and it's it's kind of a baseline

00:27:07   level of frustration I have at the watch

00:27:09   third party faces I think are a really

00:27:12   big challenge for Apple to enable in a

00:27:14   way that is compatible with power goals

00:27:18   and everything else and security goals

00:27:20   and and just branding and consistency

00:27:23   goals it is challenging for them to

00:27:24   offer that but I think the the benefits

00:27:27   of offering that would transform the

00:27:29   watch as a platform so much that I think

00:27:32   that's a challenge they should undertake

00:27:33   and I think that's that's a line they

00:27:35   should cross whether they will is a very

00:27:37   different story and honestly I'm not

00:27:38   that hopeful sure I mean even if it was

00:27:41   like like in some part of me it's like

00:27:42   if we don't get custom watch faces at

00:27:44   least I won't like more like if they

00:27:48   have Apple wants to make all of them

00:27:50   then they need to make more than they

00:27:51   have now in terms of like the only one

00:27:53   that like you have the modular face

00:27:55   which is that's like it's like the

00:27:57   kitchens like the Swiss Army knife well

00:27:58   face but what if I want something like

00:28:02   sort of in-between that like I think for

00:28:04   me what I would love is a watch face

00:28:06   that was big time on there like firm for

00:28:10   like two-thirds of the display and then

00:28:11   like the three modular complications on

00:28:13   the bottom like I think for me that's

00:28:15   what I would love but like such a thing

00:28:17   doesn't exist like the time is always

00:28:18   this small quote the small thing in the

00:28:20   top right corner and like so if they you

00:28:22   don't give them to us as custom

00:28:23   developers at least they could give us

00:28:24   thousands more and or dozens more and

00:28:27   then I think I'd I'd be a lot happier

00:28:29   yeah but see there's always it's it's

00:28:31   like the 80% problem there's always

00:28:32   gonna be something about whatever they

00:28:34   offer us in the built-in faces that

00:28:36   isn't what we would actually want and

00:28:38   they're gonna be blind to certain things

00:28:41   where there's gonna be things they would

00:28:42   never do that there is a strong market

00:28:44   for that if a third-party developer did

00:28:47   it

00:28:47   it could really you know expand the

00:28:49   platform and make it more useful for

00:28:51   people and and reach into new ideas and

00:28:53   new

00:28:53   I guess that Apple didn't or wouldn't

00:28:54   consider and I think third party watch

00:28:57   faces are like that is the software

00:29:00   unicorn for me on this platform like I

00:29:02   don't know if Apple will ever do it as I

00:29:05   said I would bet against it honestly but

00:29:07   if they ever do I'd be very excited

00:29:09   about that and I think that's a good

00:29:12   place to stop but I think we'll see

00:29:14   hopefully in the next couple weeks or a

00:29:16   couple months we'll have some more

00:29:17   information from Apple on this and then

00:29:18   hopefully we'll be pleasantly surprised

00:29:20   yeah this is this is a product that I

00:29:22   really look forward to wherever it is

00:29:24   two to five years from now and and I

00:29:27   hope I hope in the meantime we can we

00:29:29   can get some good use out of it as well

00:29:30   so thanks a lot to our sponsor a glue

00:29:32   thanks for everyone to listening for

00:29:34   listening and we will talk to you next

00:29:36   week