Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome back to under the radar a show

00:00:01 ◼   ► about independent iOS development I am

00:00:03 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:07 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started our goal

00:00:10 ◼   ► for under the radar is for it to be a

00:00:13 ◼   ► show that covers all of the various

00:00:15 ◼   ► aspects of what it means to be a

00:00:17 ◼   ► developer whether that independent or

00:00:19 ◼   ► working in a corporate job like we want

00:00:21 ◼   ► to talk a lot about all the various

00:00:22 ◼   ► things that are important to people who

00:00:24 ◼   ► are in development jobs and so in our

00:00:26 ◼   ► first type first episode we talked about

00:00:28 ◼   ► and it was more business oriented and

00:00:29 ◼   ► then we talked about selling more coding

00:00:30 ◼   ► last week this week we're going to take

00:00:32 ◼   ► a slightly softer topic but our goal is

00:00:34 ◼   ► to kind of make sure that we're covering

00:00:35 ◼   ► a lot of things and we're not just

00:00:36 ◼   ► diving into one thing too much and

00:00:38 ◼   ► hopefully that makes it a lot more

00:00:39 ◼   ► interesting and a bit more varied to

00:00:41 ◼   ► listen to and so this week we're gonna

00:00:43 ◼   ► talk about making your ideal work

00:00:48 ◼   ► environment and what that looks like for

00:00:49 ◼   ► us the experiences we've had in setting

00:00:51 ◼   ► that up as well as just kind of like

00:00:53 ◼   ► things that you should be thinking about

00:00:54 ◼   ► because being a developer is kind of a

00:00:57 ◼   ► funny job we go to work by sitting you

00:01:01 ◼   ► know we go into an office whatever that

00:01:02 ◼   ► looks like we sit down in a chair and we

00:01:04 ◼   ► push buttons on a keyboard and a mouse

00:01:06 ◼   ► and sort of at the end of that out comes

00:01:09 ◼   ► some code and that's that's our

00:01:11 ◼   ► profession but as a result like the way

00:01:13 ◼   ► in which we spend our time when we're

00:01:15 ◼   ► supposed sitting for you know 40 50 60

00:01:17 ◼   ► hours a week or whatever your particular

00:01:19 ◼   ► work environment looks like the way in

00:01:21 ◼   ► which we do that is very important

00:01:22 ◼   ► because if it doesn't make us the most

00:01:24 ◼   ► productive we're kind of shooting

00:01:26 ◼   ► ourselves in the foot

00:01:27 ◼   ► and along those lines there's also

00:01:29 ◼   ► things like economics and problems with

00:01:31 ◼   ► RSI and things that I know myself a

00:01:33 ◼   ► worried about and had to have had some

00:01:35 ◼   ► problems with that I wanted to sort of

00:01:37 ◼   ► dive into but so Marco what is your

00:01:39 ◼   ► current ideal work environment look like

00:01:42 ◼   ► so basically I've I've set up my home

00:01:45 ◼   ► office cuz you know I work only from

00:01:47 ◼   ► home I don't have I don't have any other

00:01:48 ◼   ► offices that I go to or work from and

00:01:51 ◼   ► that's a whole other topic we might be

00:01:53 ◼   ► able to get through today but we'll

00:01:54 ◼   ► certainly talk about in the future I

00:01:56 ◼   ► have a desk that I maybe I didn't quite

00:02:00 ◼   ► steal it

00:02:01 ◼   ► i'ma go she ate it as part of my exit

00:02:04 ◼   ► from tumblr which is an electrically

00:02:05 ◼   ► raising and lowering desk I love having

00:02:08 ◼   ► the standing desk because a while ago I

00:02:10 ◼   ► developed some pretty bad back problems

00:02:12 ◼   ► I was taking way

00:02:14 ◼   ► too many road trips and was basically

00:02:16 ◼   ► spending way too much time in cars over

00:02:19 ◼   ► over a span of about a year and so I

00:02:21 ◼   ► eventually developed lower back problems

00:02:24 ◼   ► I herniated discs and everything so in

00:02:26 ◼   ► order to avoid that and to to kind of

00:02:29 ◼   ► fix that I had to make a bunch of

00:02:31 ◼   ► changes in my life one of which was for

00:02:33 ◼   ► almost a year I think I exclusively

00:02:36 ◼   ► stood while working and at first I had

00:02:39 ◼   ► rigged this up by stacking two six-packs

00:02:43 ◼   ► stacked with Ikea bookshelves spanning

00:02:46 ◼   ► across them so it ends up that is about

00:02:48 ◼   ► the height difference that you can put a

00:02:50 ◼   ► keyboard and mouse on and then another

00:02:52 ◼   ► set of those on the back for the monitor

00:02:54 ◼   ► to kind of make a makeshift standing

00:02:56 ◼   ► desk from one that is normally a sitting

00:02:58 ◼   ► desk and then eventually we we decided

00:03:01 ◼   ► to make it official and get really nice

00:03:02 ◼   ► electric ones because everyone else in

00:03:03 ◼   ► the office wanted them to and and it's

00:03:06 ◼   ► nice people to convert easily back and

00:03:07 ◼   ► forth between standing and sitting so

00:03:09 ◼   ► you can do things like stand in the

00:03:10 ◼   ► morning and then when you're tired in

00:03:12 ◼   ► the afternoon you can sit for the

00:03:13 ◼   ► afternoon it's nice to have that kind of

00:03:15 ◼   ► variety if you have any kind of back

00:03:16 ◼   ► problem and it's also just like you know

00:03:17 ◼   ► probably slightly better for you there's

00:03:19 ◼   ► various studies most of achar

00:03:21 ◼   ► conflicting and inconclusive like most

00:03:22 ◼   ► studies but yeah it's probably a good

00:03:24 ◼   ► thing to mix standing with sitting in

00:03:27 ◼   ► your day if you can however whatever

00:03:29 ◼   ► form that takes I also had RSI scares

00:03:32 ◼   ► earlier so a long time ago I switched

00:03:35 ◼   ► from regular you know kind of keyboards

00:03:37 ◼   ► to the split ergonomic keyboard layout

00:03:40 ◼   ► originally it was the Microsoft natural

00:03:43 ◼   ► something-something 4000 and I used

00:03:45 ◼   ► those for a long time it's a great

00:03:47 ◼   ► keyboard and then a couple years ago now

00:03:50 ◼   ► or maybe 1 and 1/2 years ago now they

00:03:51 ◼   ► they released the Microsoft sculpt

00:03:53 ◼   ► ergonomic keyboard which is kind of an

00:03:55 ◼   ► update to it and it's another split ergo

00:03:58 ◼   ► keyboard and I like it a lot I reviewed

00:04:00 ◼   ► it on my site eyelid Lisa show notes you

00:04:02 ◼   ► can see all these I've tried other organ

00:04:04 ◼   ► AMA keyboards as well including the

00:04:06 ◼   ► Kinesis freestyle - and the Matias our

00:04:08 ◼   ► GoPro and they're they're both very good

00:04:11 ◼   ► as well I still prefer the sculpt but

00:04:13 ◼   ► anyway switching to an Ergo keyboard

00:04:15 ◼   ► really was one of the biggest things -

00:04:18 ◼   ► to help me with RSI issues and after

00:04:21 ◼   ► that switch I no longer have any pain

00:04:23 ◼   ► almost ever since I don't know ten years

00:04:26 ◼   ► ago when I made that switch I had

00:04:27 ◼   ► occasionally tried to switch back to a

00:04:30 ◼   ► non split keyboard or I've like gone on

00:04:32 ◼   ► trips where I have to bring a laptop but

00:04:33 ◼   ► I'm using a laptop keyboard more heavily

00:04:36 ◼   ► than usual and every time I switch to an

00:04:38 ◼   ► on split keyboard even for a few days I

00:04:41 ◼   ► do start getting pain again and so now I

00:04:44 ◼   ► just know I know about myself but this

00:04:46 ◼   ► is just something that I will probably

00:04:47 ◼   ► not be able to ever switch back to full

00:04:50 ◼   ► time to like the regular layout which of

00:04:52 ◼   ► course has you know a lot of interesting

00:04:53 ◼   ► ramifications with things like working

00:04:55 ◼   ► from iPads and stuff like that but my

00:04:56 ◼   ► physical layout is standing the standing

00:04:59 ◼   ► desk most of which I usually am sitting

00:05:02 ◼   ► at it these days I don't I don't stand

00:05:03 ◼   ► often anymore

00:05:04 ◼   ► but sometimes I'll put it up to stance

00:05:06 ◼   ► but most of the time I'm sitting I'm

00:05:08 ◼   ► sitting on a Herman Miller and body

00:05:09 ◼   ► chair get a good chair how many chairs

00:05:11 ◼   ► do you buy in your life like really well

00:05:13 ◼   ► if you do my previous method of buying

00:05:16 ◼   ► them from Staples and they're like 60

00:05:17 ◼   ► bucks then the number might be pretty

00:05:18 ◼   ► high but if when you get a good chair

00:05:21 ◼   ► you tend to keep it for like 10 years at

00:05:23 ◼   ► least the Herman Miller embody is great

00:05:25 ◼   ► the Aeron is also very good

00:05:26 ◼   ► I think the embodies better but you know

00:05:29 ◼   ► it's up to you go to a fancy chair store

00:05:31 ◼   ► in try the mountain but yeah that's

00:05:33 ◼   ► basically it standing desk Herman Miller

00:05:35 ◼   ► and body chair and split keyboard and

00:05:38 ◼   ► the Apple Magic Mouse which everybody

00:05:40 ◼   ► hates yeah yeah I was about to actually

00:05:43 ◼   ► say it's like I have a very similar

00:05:44 ◼   ► setup I have the same chair and keyboard

00:05:46 ◼   ► but mouse wise what I found is actually

00:05:48 ◼   ► gaming mice are really great for

00:05:52 ◼   ► development work which is mote is a

00:05:54 ◼   ► funny thing to say because like they're

00:05:55 ◼   ► all kinds I mean I think that Mouse I

00:05:57 ◼   ► have is this thing it's like the the

00:05:59 ◼   ► Razer DeathAdder 8000 or something like

00:06:02 ◼   ► me they always have these very scary

00:06:03 ◼   ► sounding names like it's something

00:06:05 ◼   ► something terribly terrifying but is it

00:06:07 ◼   ► full of blue LEDs I had a choice I could

00:06:10 ◼   ► get a model with or without the LED and

00:06:11 ◼   ► I opted to get the non LED version just

00:06:15 ◼   ► you know for for stylistic reasons but

00:06:17 ◼   ► yes the what I love about a mouse like

00:06:20 ◼   ► that though is it has incredibly light

00:06:22 ◼   ► touch on the buttons obviously if you're

00:06:25 ◼   ► playing some kind of first-person

00:06:26 ◼   ► shooter and you're you know clean them

00:06:28 ◼   ► that button lots and lots of times and

00:06:30 ◼   ► you need a very light trigger it sort of

00:06:32 ◼   ► like it has a like a feather trigger on

00:06:34 ◼   ► it which is really is which I found to

00:06:36 ◼   ► be really nice first is like I've dapple

00:06:38 ◼   ► like the Apple mice I have a whole like

00:06:40 ◼   ► closet of them because they

00:06:41 ◼   ► you know that you get one every time you

00:06:42 ◼   ► buy an iMac but I've never used one

00:06:45 ◼   ► because they're just if it feels like

00:06:47 ◼   ► I'm trying to like I don't know it's

00:06:49 ◼   ► like hold onto this bulb of this black

00:06:50 ◼   ► bar of soap or something like it's

00:06:52 ◼   ► clinching my hand in a really awkward

00:06:53 ◼   ► way so but otherwise yeah I've a very

00:06:56 ◼   ► similar setup for you is have a desk

00:06:59 ◼   ► that I have a desk that I got the I like

00:07:02 ◼   ► the IKEA standing desk so it has like a

00:07:04 ◼   ► little the motor thing and it's like the

00:07:05 ◼   ► IKEA thing there's a couple hundred

00:07:06 ◼   ► dollars I think it wasn't all that

00:07:08 ◼   ► expensive I've never used it standing I

00:07:10 ◼   ► got it

00:07:11 ◼   ► when I needed a new desk and I was like

00:07:13 ◼   ► well I'm gonna pay the few extra hundred

00:07:14 ◼   ► dollars to get a standing mode so that

00:07:16 ◼   ► if I need to at some point or it becomes

00:07:18 ◼   ► something that I want to do I can I've

00:07:20 ◼   ► always found standing to feel a bit

00:07:22 ◼   ► awkward like I don't know if I just feel

00:07:23 ◼   ► like I've gotten so used to I sit down

00:07:25 ◼   ► when I work and like breaking the habit

00:07:28 ◼   ► of like sitting down and they're

00:07:31 ◼   ► standing up doesn't feel like working

00:07:32 ◼   ► you just gotta be a bit weird but I have

00:07:35 ◼   ► it there just in case of course the

00:07:37 ◼   ► other amusing thing about my working

00:07:38 ◼   ► setup that I wanted to mention is the

00:07:40 ◼   ► thing that I've seen most people who end

00:07:42 ◼   ► up complaining about problems with

00:07:44 ◼   ► ergonomics or problems they in my

00:07:46 ◼   ► experience it's one of two things

00:07:47 ◼   ► they're using a regular keyboard and

00:07:49 ◼   ► they need to try using a split keyboard

00:07:51 ◼   ► or theory their screen is too low down

00:07:55 ◼   ► because I for some reason I don't really

00:07:58 ◼   ► know who Apple is designing they're

00:07:59 ◼   ► their computers for all of their

00:08:02 ◼   ► computers like most specifically the

00:08:04 ◼   ► iMac or the cinema displays the stands

00:08:07 ◼   ► are ridiculously short this the computer

00:08:10 ◼   ► is only if you just put it on its own

00:08:11 ◼   ► stand you'd be like four or five inches

00:08:14 ◼   ► above the table and for every promise

00:08:16 ◼   ► ever you know for unless you have a very

00:08:17 ◼   ► strangely proportioned torso that means

00:08:20 ◼   ► that you're going to be looking down at

00:08:22 ◼   ► the screen all day and that's terrible

00:08:26 ◼   ► for you like it's sort of I notice this

00:08:28 ◼   ► myself whenever I would have to like I'm

00:08:30 ◼   ► forced to work from a laptop for for

00:08:32 ◼   ► more than a few hours because typically

00:08:34 ◼   ► I never use a laptop except for like

00:08:35 ◼   ► when I'm at you know like at a

00:08:36 ◼   ► conference for a week or watc something

00:08:38 ◼   ► like that where I have to I have to use

00:08:41 ◼   ► a laptop but I immediately noticed like

00:08:42 ◼   ► my shoulders get all tight I'll start to

00:08:45 ◼   ► get like pain in my neck and all kinds

00:08:46 ◼   ► of things because you're looking down so

00:08:48 ◼   ► for me I kind of I don't even know if I

00:08:52 ◼   ► should say this but I kind of I'm kind

00:08:53 ◼   ► of a hoarder of Apple packaging

00:08:55 ◼   ► so every Apple device I've ever bought I

00:08:57 ◼   ► have the packaging for still but so my

00:08:59 ◼   ► iMac is stacked on a MacBook Pro box on

00:09:04 ◼   ► top of that is an iPad box and it's sort

00:09:07 ◼   ► of late it's about it's sort of put on

00:09:09 ◼   ► there and I have a strap over it to keep

00:09:11 ◼   ► it together but I raises it up by maybe

00:09:13 ◼   ► maybe about six inches or so and for me

00:09:16 ◼   ► that's perfect sort of like I'm the one

00:09:19 ◼   ► thing I remember was background was in

00:09:21 ◼   ► college I had this really this is this

00:09:24 ◼   ► random like mandatory class that ever

00:09:26 ◼   ► Elvis off computer science majors had to

00:09:28 ◼   ► take that was basically like how to not

00:09:30 ◼   ► end up hurting yourself being a software

00:09:32 ◼   ► engineer and they were talking about all

00:09:34 ◼   ► these things about ergonomics and about

00:09:36 ◼   ► like how you like work life types of

00:09:39 ◼   ► things but the biggest thing I remember

00:09:40 ◼   ► they said it's like which we want to

00:09:41 ◼   ► look if when you set up your work

00:09:43 ◼   ► environment there should be no tension

00:09:45 ◼   ► in any part of you like everything

00:09:47 ◼   ► should be neutral like your elbows

00:09:48 ◼   ► should be at a nice 90 degree angle your

00:09:50 ◼   ► shoulders should be relaxed your legs

00:09:52 ◼   ► should be at a nice 90 degree angle like

00:09:54 ◼   ► everything nothing should be in tension

00:09:55 ◼   ► and the only way I've ever been able to

00:09:57 ◼   ► do that it's to lift my imac up put my

00:09:59 ◼   ► keyboard at normal at like this is

00:10:02 ◼   ► actually a nice thing about having a

00:10:03 ◼   ► standing desk because you can make your

00:10:04 ◼   ► table height whatever you want so like

00:10:05 ◼   ► my table height is nice and low and for

00:10:08 ◼   ► me I found that to work really well yeah

00:10:10 ◼   ► definitely and that's like this one of

00:10:12 ◼   ► the worries I have but our industry in

00:10:14 ◼   ► general but although this problem

00:10:15 ◼   ► usually kind of solved itself through

00:10:17 ◼   ► force through RSI and neck and shoulder

00:10:20 ◼   ► problems is that it seems like the the

00:10:23 ◼   ► default developer workstation has

00:10:26 ◼   ► shifted over the last 10 years it used

00:10:28 ◼   ► to be a desktop computer but now I think

00:10:32 ◼   ► for almost every working developer that

00:10:35 ◼   ► I that I've encountered in real life

00:10:37 ◼   ► they're almost always working on a

00:10:38 ◼   ► laptop full time it's a 15-inch MacBook

00:10:40 ◼   ► Pro exactly yeah everyone has that is

00:10:42 ◼   ► like the workhorse computer it's not

00:10:44 ◼   ► it's not the new MacBook one it's not

00:10:46 ◼   ► the MacBook Air it isn't even the 13 the

00:10:48 ◼   ► most common computer by far that I see

00:10:50 ◼   ► developers using is the 15-inch MacBook

00:10:52 ◼   ► Pro Nomad and even if they like web

00:10:54 ◼   ► developers developers even if they're

00:10:56 ◼   ► web developers or something else

00:10:57 ◼   ► it's a 15-inch MacBook Pro almost always

00:10:59 ◼   ► but the problem is so many developers

00:11:03 ◼   ► work full-time on a laptop sitting on a

00:11:06 ◼   ► desk without external stuff just like on

00:11:09 ◼   ► cup itself and you know if it's somebody

00:11:11 ◼   ► I know who I wouldn't mind you know

00:11:13 ◼   ► ribbing a bit I'll a some like you know

00:11:14 ◼   ► it's a by chance do you have like neck

00:11:15 ◼   ► and shoulder soreness or problems

00:11:17 ◼   ► because hunching over a laptop is really

00:11:20 ◼   ► not good long term as you said like it

00:11:22 ◼   ► you really should be looking straight

00:11:24 ◼   ► ahead you should be looking at you

00:11:26 ◼   ► should be typing on a keyboard that is

00:11:27 ◼   ► you know by proper ergonomics the

00:11:29 ◼   ► keyboard needs to be fairly far from the

00:11:31 ◼   ► screen so it's it's kind of impossible

00:11:34 ◼   ► to get good at good ergonomics out of a

00:11:35 ◼   ► laptop if you have a laptop and you're

00:11:37 ◼   ► working at the same desk every day one

00:11:40 ◼   ► set up I did the setup I did four years

00:11:41 ◼   ► when I was working on a laptop was you'd

00:11:44 ◼   ► have the external keyboard mouse and and

00:11:46 ◼   ► and monitor and the laptop would be

00:11:49 ◼   ► propped up on a stand next to it so the

00:11:50 ◼   ► laptop would be the second monitor the

00:11:52 ◼   ► the external monitor would be the

00:11:54 ◼   ► primary and then you'd have the keyboard

00:11:56 ◼   ► and mouse at so you could you can

00:11:57 ◼   ► simulate a a really nice desktop by

00:12:00 ◼   ► using a laptop with external peripherals

00:12:02 ◼   ► and a stand and if you're gonna work be

00:12:05 ◼   ► working on a laptop full time that is by

00:12:07 ◼   ► far the setup I recommend because you

00:12:08 ◼   ► get double the screen space you don't

00:12:10 ◼   ► have to deal with the weirdness of the

00:12:11 ◼   ► laptop working in clamshell mode which

00:12:13 ◼   ► is never good it's always a hack it's

00:12:15 ◼   ► always unreliable there's occasionally

00:12:18 ◼   ► some heat issues there were some melting

00:12:19 ◼   ► the screen issues no it's really it's

00:12:23 ◼   ► not it's not reliably good but having

00:12:26 ◼   ► the side by side on a stand setup is

00:12:28 ◼   ► great and if you have to work on a

00:12:30 ◼   ► laptop full-time that is the way to do

00:12:31 ◼   ► it

00:12:32 ◼   ► ergonomically and I I wonder about how

00:12:35 ◼   ► this how this ends up working with like

00:12:37 ◼   ► if we have a future where we're working

00:12:39 ◼   ► more on iOS devices

00:12:40 ◼   ► you know the the smartphone I'm not too

00:12:44 ◼   ► worried about the ergonomics of

00:12:45 ◼   ► smartphones but that might also have the

00:12:48 ◼   ► the kind of like neck looking down issue

00:12:50 ◼   ► I am a little concerned about what

00:12:52 ◼   ► happens if if we get really into tablets

00:12:54 ◼   ► as an industry of like working on

00:12:56 ◼   ► tablets because you use your hands on a

00:13:01 ◼   ► tablet keyboard the way you would on a

00:13:03 ◼   ► desktop keeper like on a smartphone

00:13:04 ◼   ► using your thumbs you're not yeah so

00:13:06 ◼   ► it's it's a whole different position and

00:13:08 ◼   ► a smartphone I don't think would be

00:13:10 ◼   ► fatiguing in the same way because of

00:13:12 ◼   ► like the way you're holding it in your

00:13:13 ◼   ► hand seems like a very natural position

00:13:15 ◼   ► for your hand to be in yeah your fingers

00:13:17 ◼   ► are fairly neutral exactly on a small

00:13:19 ◼   ► tablet you're probably the same thing on

00:13:20 ◼   ► a big tablet you might be doing on so

00:13:23 ◼   ► typing touch typing style or you might

00:13:25 ◼   ► be using an external keyboard and that I

00:13:28 ◼   ► think is gonna have economic challenges

00:13:30 ◼   ► similar to what laptops have if not a

00:13:31 ◼   ► little bit worse because everything's a

00:13:32 ◼   ► little bit more cramped and we don't yet

00:13:34 ◼   ► know the long-term economic of these

00:13:37 ◼   ► things you know we've had computers like

00:13:39 ◼   ► PC style computers we've had those for

00:13:41 ◼   ► decades to be able to study the

00:13:43 ◼   ► ergonomics of long-term use and and the

00:13:46 ◼   ► effects of this use we've had so much

00:13:48 ◼   ► time to study this and to figure out you

00:13:50 ◼   ► know good or gonna make practices on

00:13:52 ◼   ► this and what's good and what's not with

00:13:54 ◼   ► all these new devices that we have

00:13:55 ◼   ► they're just too young we just haven't

00:13:57 ◼   ► had the time yet to figure out like what

00:13:58 ◼   ► happens

00:13:59 ◼   ► ergonomically if you work on a tablet

00:14:01 ◼   ► for 10 hours a day for 10 years like we

00:14:02 ◼   ► just don't know yet and I'm a little

00:14:05 ◼   ► scared if the industry moves more

00:14:06 ◼   ► towards these things that actually makes

00:14:09 ◼   ► it harder to get good ergonomics because

00:14:11 ◼   ► like the world of desktops and laptops

00:14:13 ◼   ► and PCs every person can kind of pick

00:14:16 ◼   ► what works for them and mix and match

00:14:17 ◼   ► and there's tons of availability of like

00:14:19 ◼   ► of things you can do

00:14:20 ◼   ► keyboards you can use mice you can use

00:14:23 ◼   ► arrangements of the set up kinds of

00:14:25 ◼   ► setups there's all this variety as we

00:14:27 ◼   ► move towards these these kind of

00:14:28 ◼   ► all-in-one integrated devices and iPads

00:14:31 ◼   ► and phones and everything I feel like

00:14:32 ◼   ► the the amount of variety possible is

00:14:35 ◼   ► substantially smaller as we keep moving

00:14:37 ◼   ► towards everything must be as small and

00:14:39 ◼   ► thin and light as possible small and

00:14:42 ◼   ► thin and light are often in conflict

00:14:44 ◼   ► with good ergonomics which is one of the

00:14:46 ◼   ► one of the problems Apple has with the

00:14:48 ◼   ► design of it's probably as you mentioned

00:14:50 ◼   ► the whole reason the the iMac and Cinema

00:14:53 ◼   ► Display stand is so short is because it

00:14:55 ◼   ► looks worse when it's taller like it

00:14:58 ◼   ► doesn't look as nice and that's why it's

00:15:00 ◼   ► short to make it look better and

00:15:02 ◼   ► oftentimes proper ergonomics don't look

00:15:05 ◼   ► that good it's always as balance it has

00:15:06 ◼   ► to be struck and and I hope by talking

00:15:09 ◼   ► about it here I think my main hope is

00:15:12 ◼   ► that people especially young people for

00:15:14 ◼   ► whom like it's not too late yet like I

00:15:16 ◼   ► hope that people really take seriously

00:15:19 ◼   ► their own ergonomics because the

00:15:22 ◼   ► problems can accumulate quickly you know

00:15:24 ◼   ► like I I first had RSI pain after only

00:15:27 ◼   ► about a year and a half of working

00:15:29 ◼   ► full-time as a programmer I was like 23

00:15:32 ◼   ► or something I was very young still and

00:15:33 ◼   ► it came on immediately like it was it

00:15:36 ◼   ► was so quick

00:15:37 ◼   ► I developed my bag problem when I was

00:15:38 ◼   ► only like 25 you know like this stuff

00:15:41 ◼   ► can happen when you're young and the

00:15:43 ◼   ► earlier you catch it the better and the

00:15:46 ◼   ► earlier you develop good habits the

00:15:47 ◼   ► better yeah I had a similar experience

00:15:50 ◼   ► like our very early on in my career I

00:15:52 ◼   ► discovered that if I typed for if I

00:15:54 ◼   ► especially if after like a session we're

00:15:57 ◼   ► like you really get in the zone and like

00:15:58 ◼   ► you're really working and like you have

00:15:59 ◼   ► the moat the thing where the days where

00:16:01 ◼   ► you like you look up and said wow I've

00:16:03 ◼   ► just been sitting in exactly the same

00:16:04 ◼   ► position for five hours straight like I

00:16:06 ◼   ► haven't moved because I've been so

00:16:08 ◼   ► focused on what it is I'm building which

00:16:10 ◼   ► is awesome like from a development

00:16:11 ◼   ► perspective then I'd like get up and

00:16:13 ◼   ► it's like wow like that like it hurts

00:16:15 ◼   ► and then you start to have the thoughts

00:16:17 ◼   ► of this like if I can't type like I

00:16:19 ◼   ► can't I can't do my job like it's it's a

00:16:21 ◼   ► kind of one of those scary you'd like

00:16:23 ◼   ► disability type of things like if I if I

00:16:26 ◼   ► ever ended up hurting myself like it

00:16:27 ◼   ► would be like my hands are what I use to

00:16:29 ◼   ► make my do to do my work like I can't

00:16:32 ◼   ► there's not really I'm sure that could

00:16:33 ◼   ► work out ways around it but it's such a

00:16:36 ◼   ► such a vital thing and like you said

00:16:38 ◼   ► it's like and what the reason I wanted

00:16:39 ◼   ► this early on early topic for me is it's

00:16:41 ◼   ► like it's an important thing like it's

00:16:43 ◼   ► it's one of the few things that as a

00:16:45 ◼   ► profession like we just professionally

00:16:46 ◼   ► you have to take care of yourself with

00:16:48 ◼   ► because if you lose the ability to type

00:16:51 ◼   ► or to type without community to type

00:16:53 ◼   ► comfortably like it's gonna be a pretty

00:16:55 ◼   ► serious problem and all of these types

00:16:58 ◼   ► of pain whether it's like wrist wrist

00:17:00 ◼   ► style paint or or neck and shoulder or

00:17:03 ◼   ► back pain all of those things come on

00:17:06 ◼   ► very slowly and then leave very slowly

00:17:08 ◼   ► these aren't like oh I'm sore for one

00:17:10 ◼   ► day and then it's normal they could last

00:17:12 ◼   ► weeks or months and it's over weeks or

00:17:15 ◼   ► months that the bad habits get built

00:17:16 ◼   ► and that the problem gets exacerbated

00:17:19 ◼   ► again they come on slowly and they leave

00:17:21 ◼   ► slowly so it is important like feeling

00:17:23 ◼   ► any wrist or neck or back pain is not

00:17:27 ◼   ► normal like if you feel any of that pain

00:17:29 ◼   ► after any day

00:17:30 ◼   ► you're doing something wrong and so

00:17:32 ◼   ► there's always room for improvement you

00:17:34 ◼   ► know the more you move around during the

00:17:35 ◼   ► day you'll help your back how you sit if

00:17:38 ◼   ► you sit like with good posture if that

00:17:40 ◼   ► helps a lot how you use or don't use arm

00:17:43 ◼   ► rests and wrist rests if you have a

00:17:46 ◼   ► keyboard look it please use a split

00:17:49 ◼   ► keyboard if you can

00:17:50 ◼   ► if you can't or refuse to at minimum

00:17:53 ◼   ► please do not use the feet on the back

00:17:56 ◼   ► of the keyboard that elevated up because

00:17:59 ◼   ► that is working against you so hard any

00:18:02 ◼   ► keyboard you type on should be either

00:18:03 ◼   ► flat or should actually be what they

00:18:06 ◼   ► call negative tilted which is that the

00:18:07 ◼   ► front of it should be higher than the

00:18:09 ◼   ► back at which no keyboard has that

00:18:12 ◼   ► option that I know of except natural

00:18:14 ◼   ► keyboards to do that that is like the

00:18:16 ◼   ► more comfortable and better for RSI

00:18:18 ◼   ► angle that a keyboard should be at the

00:18:21 ◼   ► feet on the back that prop it up that

00:18:22 ◼   ► all of us used it like in the 90s into

00:18:24 ◼   ► thousands because we didn't know any

00:18:25 ◼   ► better if you're typing up words on a

00:18:27 ◼   ► keyboard that's like that's the back of

00:18:28 ◼   ► it is higher than the front you're

00:18:30 ◼   ► actually making your wrist tilt in a

00:18:32 ◼   ► horrible position that can really

00:18:34 ◼   ► exacerbate problems and bring on RSI

00:18:36 ◼   ► faster and and this it's just like this

00:18:38 ◼   ► kind of basic stuff like this a lot of

00:18:39 ◼   ► people just don't know this like if you

00:18:41 ◼   ► just if you have a properly aligned

00:18:43 ◼   ► keyboard and you have your monitor at

00:18:46 ◼   ► the correct height and your and your

00:18:48 ◼   ► desk is at the correct height even if

00:18:50 ◼   ► you don't have a fancy electric raising

00:18:52 ◼   ► lowering desk you can probably adjust

00:18:53 ◼   ► the legs in your desk to different

00:18:55 ◼   ► heights so most desks have that having

00:18:57 ◼   ► the proper height of everything just the

00:18:58 ◼   ► basics of that that is so important and

00:19:01 ◼   ► it goes so far and for many people

00:19:03 ◼   ► myself included these minor changes or

00:19:06 ◼   ► the or caring about these few minor

00:19:08 ◼   ► areas that's all you need to prevent RSI

00:19:11 ◼   ► you know and I don't know what my future

00:19:12 ◼   ► holds but I know I've been able to work

00:19:14 ◼   ► now full time for what ten years at

00:19:17 ◼   ► least and I only had our site issues

00:19:20 ◼   ► that that first year and only until I

00:19:22 ◼   ► made these changes and now I'm fine so

00:19:25 ◼   ► really they can have a big difference

00:19:26 ◼   ► and one thing that's also probably worth

00:19:28 ◼   ► mentioning is in my experience I haven't

00:19:30 ◼   ► had a corporate job in a long time but

00:19:32 ◼   ► whenever I did any time I went to my

00:19:34 ◼   ► boss and said hey I'm having some RSI

00:19:37 ◼   ► related things can you like could I get

00:19:39 ◼   ► a different keyboard could I get a

00:19:40 ◼   ► different stand for my laptop like every

00:19:42 ◼   ► time they like fall over themselves big

00:19:44 ◼   ► carry but for me because from their

00:19:46 ◼   ► perspective like it sounds like a

00:19:47 ◼   ► horrible live like workers comp

00:19:48 ◼   ► liability situation if I write if all of

00:19:51 ◼   ► a sudden it's like so I was working you

00:19:53 ◼   ► know doing the doing the job and with

00:19:54 ◼   ► equipment you provided for me and now

00:19:57 ◼   ► I'm unable to work like that's that's

00:19:59 ◼   ► their problem in a pretty serious way

00:20:01 ◼   ► yeah and this stuff isn't expensive yeah

00:20:03 ◼   ► and like

00:20:04 ◼   ► if you're independent it's like I spend

00:20:05 ◼   ► the money on this like I I remember when

00:20:07 ◼   ► I was first starting out like buying a

00:20:08 ◼   ► chair that was like but you know like I

00:20:10 ◼   ► don't know like an embodied chair is at

00:20:11 ◼   ► least least a grand yeah there's like

00:20:13 ◼   ► 1300 or something yeah it's like it's an

00:20:14 ◼   ► expensive thing when you're starting up

00:20:16 ◼   ► it's like if I don't get a good chair

00:20:19 ◼   ► like I'm just gonna end up regretting it

00:20:22 ◼   ► later it's like it's kind of one of

00:20:23 ◼   ► these things that you have to just sort

00:20:24 ◼   ► of invest in because you're gonna spend

00:20:25 ◼   ► so many hours sitting in this chair

00:20:28 ◼   ► every day yeah and you don't and you

00:20:31 ◼   ► know we're not saying that you that the

00:20:32 ◼   ► only good chair is $1300 but when you

00:20:36 ◼   ► spend good money in this area to get

00:20:38 ◼   ► something really really good that is a

00:20:40 ◼   ► good use of money so it's not like

00:20:42 ◼   ► totally required that you can't get any

00:20:44 ◼   ► work done until you spend two grand on

00:20:46 ◼   ► your physical office setup or whatever

00:20:47 ◼   ► but it is money well spent if you can

00:20:50 ◼   ► and and stuff like a natural keyboard I

00:20:52 ◼   ► mean that's like it's a natural

00:20:53 ◼   ► keyboards like 50 bucks like it's not a

00:20:54 ◼   ► ton of money compared to a computer so

00:20:57 ◼   ► that like that kind of stuff changing

00:20:59 ◼   ► your monitor height can usually be free

00:21:01 ◼   ► if you can find some Apple boxes that

00:21:03 ◼   ► haven't been thinned out too much that

00:21:05 ◼   ► can usually be free you know stuff like

00:21:08 ◼   ► that it these small changes putting down

00:21:10 ◼   ► those stupid stands on your on the back

00:21:12 ◼   ► of your keyboard is also free like most

00:21:14 ◼   ► of the stuff you can do very easily this

00:21:17 ◼   ► episode of under the radar is brought to

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00:22:02 ◼   ► they are such high quality videos yeah

00:22:05 ◼   ► and I just wanted to mention something

00:22:06 ◼   ► from my own experience that was very

00:22:08 ◼   ► similar to any screen cast like it is an

00:22:10 ◼   ► awesome tool and it reminded me a lot of

00:22:12 ◼   ► actually of a the way in which I'd and

00:22:14 ◼   ► back in the day I learned how to program

00:22:16 ◼   ► on Ruby on Rails which

00:22:17 ◼   ► there was a similar thing for rails

00:22:19 ◼   ► development cover of rails casts

00:22:21 ◼   ► originally I remember being a little

00:22:23 ◼   ► timid to sort of like sign up for things

00:22:25 ◼   ► and like buy videos it's like come on I

00:22:26 ◼   ► can like read the documentation I'll be

00:22:28 ◼   ► fine but I remember one of these things

00:22:30 ◼   ► that I found when I start that's

00:22:31 ◼   ► ultimately like I've been she had you

00:22:33 ◼   ► know but the bullet I signed up and I

00:22:35 ◼   ► found that it was compressing

00:22:36 ◼   ► dramatically the time it took for me to

00:22:38 ◼   ► learn something because watching

00:22:39 ◼   ► somebody else who knows what they're

00:22:40 ◼   ► doing show you how to do the thing that

00:22:42 ◼   ► you're trying to learn is just so much

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00:22:47 ◼   ► perspective then ever sort of slogging

00:22:49 ◼   ► through it yourself or maybe eventually

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00:22:55 ◼   ► time perspective something like this a

00:22:57 ◼   ► resource like this is very powerful

00:22:58 ◼   ► thank you so much to end a screencast go

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00:23:07 ◼   ► show and relay FM alright and I think

00:23:11 ◼   ► the last sort of topic along an idea our

00:23:13 ◼   ► ideal work environment it seemed like we

00:23:14 ◼   ► couldn't brave sort of wade into this

00:23:17 ◼   ► topic without at least barely slightly

00:23:18 ◼   ► touching on the things that we listened

00:23:20 ◼   ► to while we code because I think one of

00:23:22 ◼   ► the most universal things about

00:23:23 ◼   ► programmers is if you go into an office

00:23:25 ◼   ► if you if you're trying to find where

00:23:27 ◼   ► the development team is it's always the

00:23:29 ◼   ► group of people just aniline wearing

00:23:31 ◼   ► headphones that there's something about

00:23:33 ◼   ► developers that we just love to listen

00:23:35 ◼   ► to things and I know you're a bit of

00:23:36 ◼   ► your headphone tastes are quite refined

00:23:43 ◼   ► but I was just curious what do you

00:23:45 ◼   ► normally listen to and how does that go

00:23:47 ◼   ► for you when you're working you're

00:23:48 ◼   ► developing I mean to me it's it's all

00:23:49 ◼   ► about isolation right and and that's why

00:23:52 ◼   ► developers wear headphones while they're

00:23:54 ◼   ► working most of the time if they're

00:23:55 ◼   ► working in an office because you need

00:23:58 ◼   ► quiet you need isolation so you can

00:23:59 ◼   ► concentrate and private officers are

00:24:02 ◼   ► probably way better for this I don't

00:24:03 ◼   ► know I've never worked in one but the

00:24:05 ◼   ► the open-plan which is where I think

00:24:07 ◼   ► most developers funding I was working

00:24:08 ◼   ► these days is so hard to get any work

00:24:11 ◼   ► done if you don't have some kind of

00:24:13 ◼   ► isolating headphones with music playing

00:24:14 ◼   ► so I think working in silence is

00:24:17 ◼   ► probably better if you could actually

00:24:19 ◼   ► get silence but in the absence of that

00:24:22 ◼   ► option when you're working in an

00:24:24 ◼   ► open-plan the best thing you can do is

00:24:26 ◼   ► first of all if you can if you can help

00:24:27 ◼   ► it find a seat or a desk that doesn't

00:24:31 ◼   ► face the door so that when as people

00:24:33 ◼   ► come in and out you aren't constantly

00:24:35 ◼   ► visually distracted but yes also then

00:24:37 ◼   ► when you're listening to you know put

00:24:39 ◼   ► headphones on block out the sound and

00:24:41 ◼   ► put on something and I don't really care

00:24:43 ◼   ► what it is what what helps the most is

00:24:45 ◼   ► if you if you put on music that you

00:24:48 ◼   ► don't have to really think about for a

00:24:50 ◼   ► while so like shuffle is bad because if

00:24:53 ◼   ► you're shuffling through your whole

00:24:54 ◼   ► music library you're gonna have these

00:24:55 ◼   ► constant jarring transitions between

00:24:57 ◼   ► songs and there's gonna be some songs

00:24:59 ◼   ► that come on that you don't want to hear

00:25:00 ◼   ► right now you're gonna have to skip them

00:25:01 ◼   ► and all that is distracting what I like

00:25:04 ◼   ► to do is put on something that it's

00:25:05 ◼   ► gonna play straight through no shuffle

00:25:08 ◼   ► long shows or long albums they're going

00:25:10 ◼   ► to play straight through that I already

00:25:12 ◼   ► know so I'm not gonna have to think

00:25:14 ◼   ► about it and that won't be distracting

00:25:16 ◼   ► and it will provide a nice constant

00:25:18 ◼   ► level of noise not something super quiet

00:25:20 ◼   ► that will not be as good as blocking out

00:25:23 ◼   ► at blocking at the sound and for me that

00:25:24 ◼   ► is fish lots and lots of fish for many

00:25:28 ◼   ► reasons that talked about a lot in other

00:25:29 ◼   ► places so I'm not gonna go too far into

00:25:30 ◼   ► it here first of all just like it but

00:25:32 ◼   ► second of all fish provides these these

00:25:35 ◼   ► live show sales that every concert they

00:25:38 ◼   ► do you can buy it as a live show it's

00:25:40 ◼   ► nice because it's it's just different

00:25:41 ◼   ► enough each time that it doesn't feel

00:25:44 ◼   ► like you're listening to the same album

00:25:45 ◼   ► on repeat but it's the same enough that

00:25:47 ◼   ► they're still the same songs generally

00:25:49 ◼   ► that you know so it's the same enough

00:25:51 ◼   ► that it isn't super distracting and

00:25:52 ◼   ► their long shows you can you know you

00:25:55 ◼   ► can buy hours and hours and hours of

00:25:57 ◼   ► fish shows every year that you know new

00:26:00 ◼   ► ones every year that come out so it

00:26:02 ◼   ► provides what I want which is that that

00:26:04 ◼   ► kind of straight through playback of

00:26:06 ◼   ► something that I can just jump in hit

00:26:08 ◼   ► play and then not think about it for the

00:26:10 ◼   ► next three hours as I work and it's just

00:26:12 ◼   ► it's there it's consistent it's nice

00:26:14 ◼   ► it's I like it I enjoy it it's

00:26:16 ◼   ► motivating for me and it really serves

00:26:18 ◼   ► to help me to keep focused yeah I think

00:26:21 ◼   ► I am similar like you know I like the

00:26:23 ◼   ► isolation I like kind of something to

00:26:25 ◼   ► keep my mind it's almost like I want to

00:26:27 ◼   ► activate and have a certain part of my

00:26:29 ◼   ► brain active that isn't my development

00:26:30 ◼   ► part but it keeps it busy so I'm not

00:26:32 ◼   ► thinking about it for me I listen to

00:26:34 ◼   ► cheesy pop music like as cheesy as can

00:26:37 ◼   ► be like tea like like as that's what I

00:26:39 ◼   ► love and I don't know why I think like

00:26:40 ◼   ► the pepperiness of it is is really

00:26:42 ◼   ► helpful to me

00:26:43 ◼   ► but you just gotta find something

00:26:45 ◼   ► that'll keep your brain engaged in what

00:26:47 ◼   ► it's doing without being distracted by

00:26:49 ◼   ► other things and you just find it you

00:26:52 ◼   ► put it on and then yeah it's like what

00:26:54 ◼   ► does it say you plug in and off you go

00:26:56 ◼   ► exactly and because you know we work in

00:26:58 ◼   ► these long bursts

00:27:00 ◼   ► you know programmers tend to work in

00:27:01 ◼   ► these big chunks of time or you know

00:27:02 ◼   ► some people call it being in the zone

00:27:04 ◼   ► whatever whatever you call it this is

00:27:06 ◼   ► generally how almost every program works

00:27:08 ◼   ► that I've ever heard of or talked to and

00:27:09 ◼   ► so like you can't you can't be in a

00:27:11 ◼   ► constantly interrupted environment you

00:27:13 ◼   ► can't be like in an open environment

00:27:15 ◼   ► where everyone's asking your questions

00:27:17 ◼   ► every five minutes or you have to get up

00:27:18 ◼   ► constantly go do something or II have to

00:27:19 ◼   ► keep going in and out of meetings all

00:27:20 ◼   ► day it's very hard to get good

00:27:22 ◼   ► programming worked on in that kind of

00:27:23 ◼   ► environment so anything you can do to

00:27:25 ◼   ► keep yourself in the zone keep yourself

00:27:27 ◼   ► focused usually is worth it good closed

00:27:30 ◼   ► headphones I'll put a link in the show

00:27:31 ◼   ► notes to my favorite closed pair which

00:27:33 ◼   ► is only like 150 bucks

00:27:34 ◼   ► the audio technica ath m50x and it's you

00:27:38 ◼   ► know good clothes headphones with good

00:27:41 ◼   ► music that you like that you don't have

00:27:42 ◼   ► to think much about that can last for a

00:27:44 ◼   ► long time at moderate volume please

00:27:46 ◼   ► don't blow your ears out because that's

00:27:47 ◼   ► another thing that does not grow back

00:27:48 ◼   ► over time so please keep it at moderate

00:27:50 ◼   ► volume just enough to block out the

00:27:52 ◼   ► world not enough to blast your ears out

00:27:53 ◼   ► yeah highly recommended alright I think

00:27:56 ◼   ► that's it for today's show thank you so

00:27:59 ◼   ► much for the warm reception you've given

00:28:00 ◼   ► us so far recommend us in overcast and

00:28:02 ◼   ► otherwise we'll see you again next week

00:28:03 ◼   ► see you