Under the Radar

Under the Radar 3: Ergonomics


00:00:00   welcome back to under the radar a show

00:00:01   about independent iOS development I am

00:00:03   Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06   the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:07   minutes so let's get started our goal

00:00:10   for under the radar is for it to be a

00:00:13   show that covers all of the various

00:00:15   aspects of what it means to be a

00:00:17   developer whether that independent or

00:00:19   working in a corporate job like we want

00:00:21   to talk a lot about all the various

00:00:22   things that are important to people who

00:00:24   are in development jobs and so in our

00:00:26   first type first episode we talked about

00:00:28   and it was more business oriented and

00:00:29   then we talked about selling more coding

00:00:30   last week this week we're going to take

00:00:32   a slightly softer topic but our goal is

00:00:34   to kind of make sure that we're covering

00:00:35   a lot of things and we're not just

00:00:36   diving into one thing too much and

00:00:38   hopefully that makes it a lot more

00:00:39   interesting and a bit more varied to

00:00:41   listen to and so this week we're gonna

00:00:43   talk about making your ideal work

00:00:48   environment and what that looks like for

00:00:49   us the experiences we've had in setting

00:00:51   that up as well as just kind of like

00:00:53   things that you should be thinking about

00:00:54   because being a developer is kind of a

00:00:57   funny job we go to work by sitting you

00:01:01   know we go into an office whatever that

00:01:02   looks like we sit down in a chair and we

00:01:04   push buttons on a keyboard and a mouse

00:01:06   and sort of at the end of that out comes

00:01:09   some code and that's that's our

00:01:11   profession but as a result like the way

00:01:13   in which we spend our time when we're

00:01:15   supposed sitting for you know 40 50 60

00:01:17   hours a week or whatever your particular

00:01:19   work environment looks like the way in

00:01:21   which we do that is very important

00:01:22   because if it doesn't make us the most

00:01:24   productive we're kind of shooting

00:01:26   ourselves in the foot

00:01:27   and along those lines there's also

00:01:29   things like economics and problems with

00:01:31   RSI and things that I know myself a

00:01:33   worried about and had to have had some

00:01:35   problems with that I wanted to sort of

00:01:37   dive into but so Marco what is your

00:01:39   current ideal work environment look like

00:01:42   so basically I've I've set up my home

00:01:45   office cuz you know I work only from

00:01:47   home I don't have I don't have any other

00:01:48   offices that I go to or work from and

00:01:51   that's a whole other topic we might be

00:01:53   able to get through today but we'll

00:01:54   certainly talk about in the future I

00:01:56   have a desk that I maybe I didn't quite

00:02:00   steal it

00:02:01   i'ma go she ate it as part of my exit

00:02:04   from tumblr which is an electrically

00:02:05   raising and lowering desk I love having

00:02:08   the standing desk because a while ago I

00:02:10   developed some pretty bad back problems

00:02:12   I was taking way

00:02:14   too many road trips and was basically

00:02:16   spending way too much time in cars over

00:02:19   over a span of about a year and so I

00:02:21   eventually developed lower back problems

00:02:24   I herniated discs and everything so in

00:02:26   order to avoid that and to to kind of

00:02:29   fix that I had to make a bunch of

00:02:31   changes in my life one of which was for

00:02:33   almost a year I think I exclusively

00:02:36   stood while working and at first I had

00:02:39   rigged this up by stacking two six-packs

00:02:43   stacked with Ikea bookshelves spanning

00:02:46   across them so it ends up that is about

00:02:48   the height difference that you can put a

00:02:50   keyboard and mouse on and then another

00:02:52   set of those on the back for the monitor

00:02:54   to kind of make a makeshift standing

00:02:56   desk from one that is normally a sitting

00:02:58   desk and then eventually we we decided

00:03:01   to make it official and get really nice

00:03:02   electric ones because everyone else in

00:03:03   the office wanted them to and and it's

00:03:06   nice people to convert easily back and

00:03:07   forth between standing and sitting so

00:03:09   you can do things like stand in the

00:03:10   morning and then when you're tired in

00:03:12   the afternoon you can sit for the

00:03:13   afternoon it's nice to have that kind of

00:03:15   variety if you have any kind of back

00:03:16   problem and it's also just like you know

00:03:17   probably slightly better for you there's

00:03:19   various studies most of achar

00:03:21   conflicting and inconclusive like most

00:03:22   studies but yeah it's probably a good

00:03:24   thing to mix standing with sitting in

00:03:27   your day if you can however whatever

00:03:29   form that takes I also had RSI scares

00:03:32   earlier so a long time ago I switched

00:03:35   from regular you know kind of keyboards

00:03:37   to the split ergonomic keyboard layout

00:03:40   originally it was the Microsoft natural

00:03:43   something-something 4000 and I used

00:03:45   those for a long time it's a great

00:03:47   keyboard and then a couple years ago now

00:03:50   or maybe 1 and 1/2 years ago now they

00:03:51   they released the Microsoft sculpt

00:03:53   ergonomic keyboard which is kind of an

00:03:55   update to it and it's another split ergo

00:03:58   keyboard and I like it a lot I reviewed

00:04:00   it on my site eyelid Lisa show notes you

00:04:02   can see all these I've tried other organ

00:04:04   AMA keyboards as well including the

00:04:06   Kinesis freestyle - and the Matias our

00:04:08   GoPro and they're they're both very good

00:04:11   as well I still prefer the sculpt but

00:04:13   anyway switching to an Ergo keyboard

00:04:15   really was one of the biggest things -

00:04:18   to help me with RSI issues and after

00:04:21   that switch I no longer have any pain

00:04:23   almost ever since I don't know ten years

00:04:26   ago when I made that switch I had

00:04:27   occasionally tried to switch back to a

00:04:30   non split keyboard or I've like gone on

00:04:32   trips where I have to bring a laptop but

00:04:33   I'm using a laptop keyboard more heavily

00:04:36   than usual and every time I switch to an

00:04:38   on split keyboard even for a few days I

00:04:41   do start getting pain again and so now I

00:04:44   just know I know about myself but this

00:04:46   is just something that I will probably

00:04:47   not be able to ever switch back to full

00:04:50   time to like the regular layout which of

00:04:52   course has you know a lot of interesting

00:04:53   ramifications with things like working

00:04:55   from iPads and stuff like that but my

00:04:56   physical layout is standing the standing

00:04:59   desk most of which I usually am sitting

00:05:02   at it these days I don't I don't stand

00:05:03   often anymore

00:05:04   but sometimes I'll put it up to stance

00:05:06   but most of the time I'm sitting I'm

00:05:08   sitting on a Herman Miller and body

00:05:09   chair get a good chair how many chairs

00:05:11   do you buy in your life like really well

00:05:13   if you do my previous method of buying

00:05:16   them from Staples and they're like 60

00:05:17   bucks then the number might be pretty

00:05:18   high but if when you get a good chair

00:05:21   you tend to keep it for like 10 years at

00:05:23   least the Herman Miller embody is great

00:05:25   the Aeron is also very good

00:05:26   I think the embodies better but you know

00:05:29   it's up to you go to a fancy chair store

00:05:31   in try the mountain but yeah that's

00:05:33   basically it standing desk Herman Miller

00:05:35   and body chair and split keyboard and

00:05:38   the Apple Magic Mouse which everybody

00:05:40   hates yeah yeah I was about to actually

00:05:43   say it's like I have a very similar

00:05:44   setup I have the same chair and keyboard

00:05:46   but mouse wise what I found is actually

00:05:48   gaming mice are really great for

00:05:52   development work which is mote is a

00:05:54   funny thing to say because like they're

00:05:55   all kinds I mean I think that Mouse I

00:05:57   have is this thing it's like the the

00:05:59   Razer DeathAdder 8000 or something like

00:06:02   me they always have these very scary

00:06:03   sounding names like it's something

00:06:05   something terribly terrifying but is it

00:06:07   full of blue LEDs I had a choice I could

00:06:10   get a model with or without the LED and

00:06:11   I opted to get the non LED version just

00:06:15   you know for for stylistic reasons but

00:06:17   yes the what I love about a mouse like

00:06:20   that though is it has incredibly light

00:06:22   touch on the buttons obviously if you're

00:06:25   playing some kind of first-person

00:06:26   shooter and you're you know clean them

00:06:28   that button lots and lots of times and

00:06:30   you need a very light trigger it sort of

00:06:32   like it has a like a feather trigger on

00:06:34   it which is really is which I found to

00:06:36   be really nice first is like I've dapple

00:06:38   like the Apple mice I have a whole like

00:06:40   closet of them because they

00:06:41   you know that you get one every time you

00:06:42   buy an iMac but I've never used one

00:06:45   because they're just if it feels like

00:06:47   I'm trying to like I don't know it's

00:06:49   like hold onto this bulb of this black

00:06:50   bar of soap or something like it's

00:06:52   clinching my hand in a really awkward

00:06:53   way so but otherwise yeah I've a very

00:06:56   similar setup for you is have a desk

00:06:59   that I have a desk that I got the I like

00:07:02   the IKEA standing desk so it has like a

00:07:04   little the motor thing and it's like the

00:07:05   IKEA thing there's a couple hundred

00:07:06   dollars I think it wasn't all that

00:07:08   expensive I've never used it standing I

00:07:10   got it

00:07:11   when I needed a new desk and I was like

00:07:13   well I'm gonna pay the few extra hundred

00:07:14   dollars to get a standing mode so that

00:07:16   if I need to at some point or it becomes

00:07:18   something that I want to do I can I've

00:07:20   always found standing to feel a bit

00:07:22   awkward like I don't know if I just feel

00:07:23   like I've gotten so used to I sit down

00:07:25   when I work and like breaking the habit

00:07:28   of like sitting down and they're

00:07:31   standing up doesn't feel like working

00:07:32   you just gotta be a bit weird but I have

00:07:35   it there just in case of course the

00:07:37   other amusing thing about my working

00:07:38   setup that I wanted to mention is the

00:07:40   thing that I've seen most people who end

00:07:42   up complaining about problems with

00:07:44   ergonomics or problems they in my

00:07:46   experience it's one of two things

00:07:47   they're using a regular keyboard and

00:07:49   they need to try using a split keyboard

00:07:51   or theory their screen is too low down

00:07:55   because I for some reason I don't really

00:07:58   know who Apple is designing they're

00:07:59   their computers for all of their

00:08:02   computers like most specifically the

00:08:04   iMac or the cinema displays the stands

00:08:07   are ridiculously short this the computer

00:08:10   is only if you just put it on its own

00:08:11   stand you'd be like four or five inches

00:08:14   above the table and for every promise

00:08:16   ever you know for unless you have a very

00:08:17   strangely proportioned torso that means

00:08:20   that you're going to be looking down at

00:08:22   the screen all day and that's terrible

00:08:26   for you like it's sort of I notice this

00:08:28   myself whenever I would have to like I'm

00:08:30   forced to work from a laptop for for

00:08:32   more than a few hours because typically

00:08:34   I never use a laptop except for like

00:08:35   when I'm at you know like at a

00:08:36   conference for a week or watc something

00:08:38   like that where I have to I have to use

00:08:41   a laptop but I immediately noticed like

00:08:42   my shoulders get all tight I'll start to

00:08:45   get like pain in my neck and all kinds

00:08:46   of things because you're looking down so

00:08:48   for me I kind of I don't even know if I

00:08:52   should say this but I kind of I'm kind

00:08:53   of a hoarder of Apple packaging

00:08:55   so every Apple device I've ever bought I

00:08:57   have the packaging for still but so my

00:08:59   iMac is stacked on a MacBook Pro box on

00:09:04   top of that is an iPad box and it's sort

00:09:07   of late it's about it's sort of put on

00:09:09   there and I have a strap over it to keep

00:09:11   it together but I raises it up by maybe

00:09:13   maybe about six inches or so and for me

00:09:16   that's perfect sort of like I'm the one

00:09:19   thing I remember was background was in

00:09:21   college I had this really this is this

00:09:24   random like mandatory class that ever

00:09:26   Elvis off computer science majors had to

00:09:28   take that was basically like how to not

00:09:30   end up hurting yourself being a software

00:09:32   engineer and they were talking about all

00:09:34   these things about ergonomics and about

00:09:36   like how you like work life types of

00:09:39   things but the biggest thing I remember

00:09:40   they said it's like which we want to

00:09:41   look if when you set up your work

00:09:43   environment there should be no tension

00:09:45   in any part of you like everything

00:09:47   should be neutral like your elbows

00:09:48   should be at a nice 90 degree angle your

00:09:50   shoulders should be relaxed your legs

00:09:52   should be at a nice 90 degree angle like

00:09:54   everything nothing should be in tension

00:09:55   and the only way I've ever been able to

00:09:57   do that it's to lift my imac up put my

00:09:59   keyboard at normal at like this is

00:10:02   actually a nice thing about having a

00:10:03   standing desk because you can make your

00:10:04   table height whatever you want so like

00:10:05   my table height is nice and low and for

00:10:08   me I found that to work really well yeah

00:10:10   definitely and that's like this one of

00:10:12   the worries I have but our industry in

00:10:14   general but although this problem

00:10:15   usually kind of solved itself through

00:10:17   force through RSI and neck and shoulder

00:10:20   problems is that it seems like the the

00:10:23   default developer workstation has

00:10:26   shifted over the last 10 years it used

00:10:28   to be a desktop computer but now I think

00:10:32   for almost every working developer that

00:10:35   I that I've encountered in real life

00:10:37   they're almost always working on a

00:10:38   laptop full time it's a 15-inch MacBook

00:10:40   Pro exactly yeah everyone has that is

00:10:42   like the workhorse computer it's not

00:10:44   it's not the new MacBook one it's not

00:10:46   the MacBook Air it isn't even the 13 the

00:10:48   most common computer by far that I see

00:10:50   developers using is the 15-inch MacBook

00:10:52   Pro Nomad and even if they like web

00:10:54   developers developers even if they're

00:10:56   web developers or something else

00:10:57   it's a 15-inch MacBook Pro almost always

00:10:59   but the problem is so many developers

00:11:03   work full-time on a laptop sitting on a

00:11:06   desk without external stuff just like on

00:11:09   cup itself and you know if it's somebody

00:11:11   I know who I wouldn't mind you know

00:11:13   ribbing a bit I'll a some like you know

00:11:14   it's a by chance do you have like neck

00:11:15   and shoulder soreness or problems

00:11:17   because hunching over a laptop is really

00:11:20   not good long term as you said like it

00:11:22   you really should be looking straight

00:11:24   ahead you should be looking at you

00:11:26   should be typing on a keyboard that is

00:11:27   you know by proper ergonomics the

00:11:29   keyboard needs to be fairly far from the

00:11:31   screen so it's it's kind of impossible

00:11:34   to get good at good ergonomics out of a

00:11:35   laptop if you have a laptop and you're

00:11:37   working at the same desk every day one

00:11:40   set up I did the setup I did four years

00:11:41   when I was working on a laptop was you'd

00:11:44   have the external keyboard mouse and and

00:11:46   and monitor and the laptop would be

00:11:49   propped up on a stand next to it so the

00:11:50   laptop would be the second monitor the

00:11:52   the external monitor would be the

00:11:54   primary and then you'd have the keyboard

00:11:56   and mouse at so you could you can

00:11:57   simulate a a really nice desktop by

00:12:00   using a laptop with external peripherals

00:12:02   and a stand and if you're gonna work be

00:12:05   working on a laptop full time that is by

00:12:07   far the setup I recommend because you

00:12:08   get double the screen space you don't

00:12:10   have to deal with the weirdness of the

00:12:11   laptop working in clamshell mode which

00:12:13   is never good it's always a hack it's

00:12:15   always unreliable there's occasionally

00:12:18   some heat issues there were some melting

00:12:19   the screen issues no it's really it's

00:12:23   not it's not reliably good but having

00:12:26   the side by side on a stand setup is

00:12:28   great and if you have to work on a

00:12:30   laptop full-time that is the way to do

00:12:31   it

00:12:32   ergonomically and I I wonder about how

00:12:35   this how this ends up working with like

00:12:37   if we have a future where we're working

00:12:39   more on iOS devices

00:12:40   you know the the smartphone I'm not too

00:12:44   worried about the ergonomics of

00:12:45   smartphones but that might also have the

00:12:48   the kind of like neck looking down issue

00:12:50   I am a little concerned about what

00:12:52   happens if if we get really into tablets

00:12:54   as an industry of like working on

00:12:56   tablets because you use your hands on a

00:13:01   tablet keyboard the way you would on a

00:13:03   desktop keeper like on a smartphone

00:13:04   using your thumbs you're not yeah so

00:13:06   it's it's a whole different position and

00:13:08   a smartphone I don't think would be

00:13:10   fatiguing in the same way because of

00:13:12   like the way you're holding it in your

00:13:13   hand seems like a very natural position

00:13:15   for your hand to be in yeah your fingers

00:13:17   are fairly neutral exactly on a small

00:13:19   tablet you're probably the same thing on

00:13:20   a big tablet you might be doing on so

00:13:23   typing touch typing style or you might

00:13:25   be using an external keyboard and that I

00:13:28   think is gonna have economic challenges

00:13:30   similar to what laptops have if not a

00:13:31   little bit worse because everything's a

00:13:32   little bit more cramped and we don't yet

00:13:34   know the long-term economic of these

00:13:37   things you know we've had computers like

00:13:39   PC style computers we've had those for

00:13:41   decades to be able to study the

00:13:43   ergonomics of long-term use and and the

00:13:46   effects of this use we've had so much

00:13:48   time to study this and to figure out you

00:13:50   know good or gonna make practices on

00:13:52   this and what's good and what's not with

00:13:54   all these new devices that we have

00:13:55   they're just too young we just haven't

00:13:57   had the time yet to figure out like what

00:13:58   happens

00:13:59   ergonomically if you work on a tablet

00:14:01   for 10 hours a day for 10 years like we

00:14:02   just don't know yet and I'm a little

00:14:05   scared if the industry moves more

00:14:06   towards these things that actually makes

00:14:09   it harder to get good ergonomics because

00:14:11   like the world of desktops and laptops

00:14:13   and PCs every person can kind of pick

00:14:16   what works for them and mix and match

00:14:17   and there's tons of availability of like

00:14:19   of things you can do

00:14:20   keyboards you can use mice you can use

00:14:23   arrangements of the set up kinds of

00:14:25   setups there's all this variety as we

00:14:27   move towards these these kind of

00:14:28   all-in-one integrated devices and iPads

00:14:31   and phones and everything I feel like

00:14:32   the the amount of variety possible is

00:14:35   substantially smaller as we keep moving

00:14:37   towards everything must be as small and

00:14:39   thin and light as possible small and

00:14:42   thin and light are often in conflict

00:14:44   with good ergonomics which is one of the

00:14:46   one of the problems Apple has with the

00:14:48   design of it's probably as you mentioned

00:14:50   the whole reason the the iMac and Cinema

00:14:53   Display stand is so short is because it

00:14:55   looks worse when it's taller like it

00:14:58   doesn't look as nice and that's why it's

00:15:00   short to make it look better and

00:15:02   oftentimes proper ergonomics don't look

00:15:05   that good it's always as balance it has

00:15:06   to be struck and and I hope by talking

00:15:09   about it here I think my main hope is

00:15:12   that people especially young people for

00:15:14   whom like it's not too late yet like I

00:15:16   hope that people really take seriously

00:15:19   their own ergonomics because the

00:15:22   problems can accumulate quickly you know

00:15:24   like I I first had RSI pain after only

00:15:27   about a year and a half of working

00:15:29   full-time as a programmer I was like 23

00:15:32   or something I was very young still and

00:15:33   it came on immediately like it was it

00:15:36   was so quick

00:15:37   I developed my bag problem when I was

00:15:38   only like 25 you know like this stuff

00:15:41   can happen when you're young and the

00:15:43   earlier you catch it the better and the

00:15:46   earlier you develop good habits the

00:15:47   better yeah I had a similar experience

00:15:50   like our very early on in my career I

00:15:52   discovered that if I typed for if I

00:15:54   especially if after like a session we're

00:15:57   like you really get in the zone and like

00:15:58   you're really working and like you have

00:15:59   the moat the thing where the days where

00:16:01   you like you look up and said wow I've

00:16:03   just been sitting in exactly the same

00:16:04   position for five hours straight like I

00:16:06   haven't moved because I've been so

00:16:08   focused on what it is I'm building which

00:16:10   is awesome like from a development

00:16:11   perspective then I'd like get up and

00:16:13   it's like wow like that like it hurts

00:16:15   and then you start to have the thoughts

00:16:17   of this like if I can't type like I

00:16:19   can't I can't do my job like it's it's a

00:16:21   kind of one of those scary you'd like

00:16:23   disability type of things like if I if I

00:16:26   ever ended up hurting myself like it

00:16:27   would be like my hands are what I use to

00:16:29   make my do to do my work like I can't

00:16:32   there's not really I'm sure that could

00:16:33   work out ways around it but it's such a

00:16:36   such a vital thing and like you said

00:16:38   it's like and what the reason I wanted

00:16:39   this early on early topic for me is it's

00:16:41   like it's an important thing like it's

00:16:43   it's one of the few things that as a

00:16:45   profession like we just professionally

00:16:46   you have to take care of yourself with

00:16:48   because if you lose the ability to type

00:16:51   or to type without community to type

00:16:53   comfortably like it's gonna be a pretty

00:16:55   serious problem and all of these types

00:16:58   of pain whether it's like wrist wrist

00:17:00   style paint or or neck and shoulder or

00:17:03   back pain all of those things come on

00:17:06   very slowly and then leave very slowly

00:17:08   these aren't like oh I'm sore for one

00:17:10   day and then it's normal they could last

00:17:12   weeks or months and it's over weeks or

00:17:15   months that the bad habits get built

00:17:16   and that the problem gets exacerbated

00:17:19   again they come on slowly and they leave

00:17:21   slowly so it is important like feeling

00:17:23   any wrist or neck or back pain is not

00:17:27   normal like if you feel any of that pain

00:17:29   after any day

00:17:30   you're doing something wrong and so

00:17:32   there's always room for improvement you

00:17:34   know the more you move around during the

00:17:35   day you'll help your back how you sit if

00:17:38   you sit like with good posture if that

00:17:40   helps a lot how you use or don't use arm

00:17:43   rests and wrist rests if you have a

00:17:46   keyboard look it please use a split

00:17:49   keyboard if you can

00:17:50   if you can't or refuse to at minimum

00:17:53   please do not use the feet on the back

00:17:56   of the keyboard that elevated up because

00:17:59   that is working against you so hard any

00:18:02   keyboard you type on should be either

00:18:03   flat or should actually be what they

00:18:06   call negative tilted which is that the

00:18:07   front of it should be higher than the

00:18:09   back at which no keyboard has that

00:18:12   option that I know of except natural

00:18:14   keyboards to do that that is like the

00:18:16   more comfortable and better for RSI

00:18:18   angle that a keyboard should be at the

00:18:21   feet on the back that prop it up that

00:18:22   all of us used it like in the 90s into

00:18:24   thousands because we didn't know any

00:18:25   better if you're typing up words on a

00:18:27   keyboard that's like that's the back of

00:18:28   it is higher than the front you're

00:18:30   actually making your wrist tilt in a

00:18:32   horrible position that can really

00:18:34   exacerbate problems and bring on RSI

00:18:36   faster and and this it's just like this

00:18:38   kind of basic stuff like this a lot of

00:18:39   people just don't know this like if you

00:18:41   just if you have a properly aligned

00:18:43   keyboard and you have your monitor at

00:18:46   the correct height and your and your

00:18:48   desk is at the correct height even if

00:18:50   you don't have a fancy electric raising

00:18:52   lowering desk you can probably adjust

00:18:53   the legs in your desk to different

00:18:55   heights so most desks have that having

00:18:57   the proper height of everything just the

00:18:58   basics of that that is so important and

00:19:01   it goes so far and for many people

00:19:03   myself included these minor changes or

00:19:06   the or caring about these few minor

00:19:08   areas that's all you need to prevent RSI

00:19:11   you know and I don't know what my future

00:19:12   holds but I know I've been able to work

00:19:14   now full time for what ten years at

00:19:17   least and I only had our site issues

00:19:20   that that first year and only until I

00:19:22   made these changes and now I'm fine so

00:19:25   really they can have a big difference

00:19:26   and one thing that's also probably worth

00:19:28   mentioning is in my experience I haven't

00:19:30   had a corporate job in a long time but

00:19:32   whenever I did any time I went to my

00:19:34   boss and said hey I'm having some RSI

00:19:37   related things can you like could I get

00:19:39   a different keyboard could I get a

00:19:40   different stand for my laptop like every

00:19:42   time they like fall over themselves big

00:19:44   carry but for me because from their

00:19:46   perspective like it sounds like a

00:19:47   horrible live like workers comp

00:19:48   liability situation if I write if all of

00:19:51   a sudden it's like so I was working you

00:19:53   know doing the doing the job and with

00:19:54   equipment you provided for me and now

00:19:57   I'm unable to work like that's that's

00:19:59   their problem in a pretty serious way

00:20:01   yeah and this stuff isn't expensive yeah

00:20:03   and like

00:20:04   if you're independent it's like I spend

00:20:05   the money on this like I I remember when

00:20:07   I was first starting out like buying a

00:20:08   chair that was like but you know like I

00:20:10   don't know like an embodied chair is at

00:20:11   least least a grand yeah there's like

00:20:13   1300 or something yeah it's like it's an

00:20:14   expensive thing when you're starting up

00:20:16   it's like if I don't get a good chair

00:20:19   like I'm just gonna end up regretting it

00:20:22   later it's like it's kind of one of

00:20:23   these things that you have to just sort

00:20:24   of invest in because you're gonna spend

00:20:25   so many hours sitting in this chair

00:20:28   every day yeah and you don't and you

00:20:31   know we're not saying that you that the

00:20:32   only good chair is $1300 but when you

00:20:36   spend good money in this area to get

00:20:38   something really really good that is a

00:20:40   good use of money so it's not like

00:20:42   totally required that you can't get any

00:20:44   work done until you spend two grand on

00:20:46   your physical office setup or whatever

00:20:47   but it is money well spent if you can

00:20:50   and and stuff like a natural keyboard I

00:20:52   mean that's like it's a natural

00:20:53   keyboards like 50 bucks like it's not a

00:20:54   ton of money compared to a computer so

00:20:57   that like that kind of stuff changing

00:20:59   your monitor height can usually be free

00:21:01   if you can find some Apple boxes that

00:21:03   haven't been thinned out too much that

00:21:05   can usually be free you know stuff like

00:21:08   that it these small changes putting down

00:21:10   those stupid stands on your on the back

00:21:12   of your keyboard is also free like most

00:21:14   of the stuff you can do very easily this

00:21:17   episode of under the radar is brought to

00:21:18   you by NS screen cast and a screen cast

00:21:21   feature short focus screen cast on iOS

00:21:23   development every week you're going to

00:21:25   find a new fantastically produced

00:21:27   episode that will help you build and

00:21:28   enhance your development skills now you

00:21:30   can watch these videos on NS screencast

00:21:32   site @ NS screencast comm you can also

00:21:36   watch them from the comfort of your

00:21:37   couch with their brand new Apple TV app

00:21:39   all this cost just 9 dollars a month or

00:21:42   $100 a year both team plans available -

00:21:45   and you can go there right now go to any

00:21:47   screencast.com slash first crack to get

00:21:50   30% off your first month and they have a

00:21:53   whole bunch of videos up there that you

00:21:54   can watch for free so you can see what

00:21:56   it is like what their videos are like

00:21:57   they're very high quality videos and

00:21:59   then when you pay you have access to the

00:22:00   full library not just the free ones and

00:22:02   they are such high quality videos yeah

00:22:05   and I just wanted to mention something

00:22:06   from my own experience that was very

00:22:08   similar to any screen cast like it is an

00:22:10   awesome tool and it reminded me a lot of

00:22:12   actually of a the way in which I'd and

00:22:14   back in the day I learned how to program

00:22:16   on Ruby on Rails which

00:22:17   there was a similar thing for rails

00:22:19   development cover of rails casts

00:22:21   originally I remember being a little

00:22:23   timid to sort of like sign up for things

00:22:25   and like buy videos it's like come on I

00:22:26   can like read the documentation I'll be

00:22:28   fine but I remember one of these things

00:22:30   that I found when I start that's

00:22:31   ultimately like I've been she had you

00:22:33   know but the bullet I signed up and I

00:22:35   found that it was compressing

00:22:36   dramatically the time it took for me to

00:22:38   learn something because watching

00:22:39   somebody else who knows what they're

00:22:40   doing show you how to do the thing that

00:22:42   you're trying to learn is just so much

00:22:44   more powerful and effective from a time

00:22:47   perspective then ever sort of slogging

00:22:49   through it yourself or maybe eventually

00:22:51   you'll get there but from an efficiency

00:22:53   perspective from its respecting your own

00:22:55   time perspective something like this a

00:22:57   resource like this is very powerful

00:22:58   thank you so much to end a screencast go

00:23:00   to NS screencast comm slash first crack

00:23:03   for 30% off your first month thanks a

00:23:06   lot to NS screencast for sponsoring the

00:23:07   show and relay FM alright and I think

00:23:11   the last sort of topic along an idea our

00:23:13   ideal work environment it seemed like we

00:23:14   couldn't brave sort of wade into this

00:23:17   topic without at least barely slightly

00:23:18   touching on the things that we listened

00:23:20   to while we code because I think one of

00:23:22   the most universal things about

00:23:23   programmers is if you go into an office

00:23:25   if you if you're trying to find where

00:23:27   the development team is it's always the

00:23:29   group of people just aniline wearing

00:23:31   headphones that there's something about

00:23:33   developers that we just love to listen

00:23:35   to things and I know you're a bit of

00:23:36   your headphone tastes are quite refined

00:23:43   but I was just curious what do you

00:23:45   normally listen to and how does that go

00:23:47   for you when you're working you're

00:23:48   developing I mean to me it's it's all

00:23:49   about isolation right and and that's why

00:23:52   developers wear headphones while they're

00:23:54   working most of the time if they're

00:23:55   working in an office because you need

00:23:58   quiet you need isolation so you can

00:23:59   concentrate and private officers are

00:24:02   probably way better for this I don't

00:24:03   know I've never worked in one but the

00:24:05   the open-plan which is where I think

00:24:07   most developers funding I was working

00:24:08   these days is so hard to get any work

00:24:11   done if you don't have some kind of

00:24:13   isolating headphones with music playing

00:24:14   so I think working in silence is

00:24:17   probably better if you could actually

00:24:19   get silence but in the absence of that

00:24:22   option when you're working in an

00:24:24   open-plan the best thing you can do is

00:24:26   first of all if you can if you can help

00:24:27   it find a seat or a desk that doesn't

00:24:31   face the door so that when as people

00:24:33   come in and out you aren't constantly

00:24:35   visually distracted but yes also then

00:24:37   when you're listening to you know put

00:24:39   headphones on block out the sound and

00:24:41   put on something and I don't really care

00:24:43   what it is what what helps the most is

00:24:45   if you if you put on music that you

00:24:48   don't have to really think about for a

00:24:50   while so like shuffle is bad because if

00:24:53   you're shuffling through your whole

00:24:54   music library you're gonna have these

00:24:55   constant jarring transitions between

00:24:57   songs and there's gonna be some songs

00:24:59   that come on that you don't want to hear

00:25:00   right now you're gonna have to skip them

00:25:01   and all that is distracting what I like

00:25:04   to do is put on something that it's

00:25:05   gonna play straight through no shuffle

00:25:08   long shows or long albums they're going

00:25:10   to play straight through that I already

00:25:12   know so I'm not gonna have to think

00:25:14   about it and that won't be distracting

00:25:16   and it will provide a nice constant

00:25:18   level of noise not something super quiet

00:25:20   that will not be as good as blocking out

00:25:23   at blocking at the sound and for me that

00:25:24   is fish lots and lots of fish for many

00:25:28   reasons that talked about a lot in other

00:25:29   places so I'm not gonna go too far into

00:25:30   it here first of all just like it but

00:25:32   second of all fish provides these these

00:25:35   live show sales that every concert they

00:25:38   do you can buy it as a live show it's

00:25:40   nice because it's it's just different

00:25:41   enough each time that it doesn't feel

00:25:44   like you're listening to the same album

00:25:45   on repeat but it's the same enough that

00:25:47   they're still the same songs generally

00:25:49   that you know so it's the same enough

00:25:51   that it isn't super distracting and

00:25:52   their long shows you can you know you

00:25:55   can buy hours and hours and hours of

00:25:57   fish shows every year that you know new

00:26:00   ones every year that come out so it

00:26:02   provides what I want which is that that

00:26:04   kind of straight through playback of

00:26:06   something that I can just jump in hit

00:26:08   play and then not think about it for the

00:26:10   next three hours as I work and it's just

00:26:12   it's there it's consistent it's nice

00:26:14   it's I like it I enjoy it it's

00:26:16   motivating for me and it really serves

00:26:18   to help me to keep focused yeah I think

00:26:21   I am similar like you know I like the

00:26:23   isolation I like kind of something to

00:26:25   keep my mind it's almost like I want to

00:26:27   activate and have a certain part of my

00:26:29   brain active that isn't my development

00:26:30   part but it keeps it busy so I'm not

00:26:32   thinking about it for me I listen to

00:26:34   cheesy pop music like as cheesy as can

00:26:37   be like tea like like as that's what I

00:26:39   love and I don't know why I think like

00:26:40   the pepperiness of it is is really

00:26:42   helpful to me

00:26:43   but you just gotta find something

00:26:45   that'll keep your brain engaged in what

00:26:47   it's doing without being distracted by

00:26:49   other things and you just find it you

00:26:52   put it on and then yeah it's like what

00:26:54   does it say you plug in and off you go

00:26:56   exactly and because you know we work in

00:26:58   these long bursts

00:27:00   you know programmers tend to work in

00:27:01   these big chunks of time or you know

00:27:02   some people call it being in the zone

00:27:04   whatever whatever you call it this is

00:27:06   generally how almost every program works

00:27:08   that I've ever heard of or talked to and

00:27:09   so like you can't you can't be in a

00:27:11   constantly interrupted environment you

00:27:13   can't be like in an open environment

00:27:15   where everyone's asking your questions

00:27:17   every five minutes or you have to get up

00:27:18   constantly go do something or II have to

00:27:19   keep going in and out of meetings all

00:27:20   day it's very hard to get good

00:27:22   programming worked on in that kind of

00:27:23   environment so anything you can do to

00:27:25   keep yourself in the zone keep yourself

00:27:27   focused usually is worth it good closed

00:27:30   headphones I'll put a link in the show

00:27:31   notes to my favorite closed pair which

00:27:33   is only like 150 bucks

00:27:34   the audio technica ath m50x and it's you

00:27:38   know good clothes headphones with good

00:27:41   music that you like that you don't have

00:27:42   to think much about that can last for a

00:27:44   long time at moderate volume please

00:27:46   don't blow your ears out because that's

00:27:47   another thing that does not grow back

00:27:48   over time so please keep it at moderate

00:27:50   volume just enough to block out the

00:27:52   world not enough to blast your ears out

00:27:53   yeah highly recommended alright I think

00:27:56   that's it for today's show thank you so

00:27:59   much for the warm reception you've given

00:28:00   us so far recommend us in overcast and

00:28:02   otherwise we'll see you again next week

00:28:03   see you