Under the Radar

Under the Radar 111: Universal Mac Apps?


00:00:00   welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02   independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04   Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06   the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08   minutes so let's get started so before

00:00:11   we dive into our actual main topic for

00:00:12   today I just wanted to have a brief

00:00:14   I guess programming note that we are

00:00:17   also we've started to publish these

00:00:20   episodes on YouTube as well as our

00:00:22   regular RSS syndication means and this

00:00:27   is mostly just an experiment we're not

00:00:28   changing anything about the core show

00:00:30   it's just something you know we're

00:00:31   continuing on relay continuing to

00:00:33   publish via RSS and mp3 like that is the

00:00:35   main that is the show but this is an

00:00:38   experiment that we're trying so I just

00:00:40   wanted to mention it in case that is a

00:00:42   preferred mechanism for you that if you

00:00:43   like you know listening to things via

00:00:46   YouTube for whatever reason that is

00:00:47   something that's there there'll be a

00:00:48   link in the show notes or I'm sure if

00:00:50   you just go to youtube and search for

00:00:51   under-the-radar you'll you'll find it so

00:00:53   I just wanted to mention that briefly so

00:00:55   please like comment and subscribe like

00:00:56   comment subscribe smash that like button

00:00:59   do all those things hit the bell I think

00:01:01   you're supposed to hit a bell I'm not

00:01:03   ready there a bell there - there's a bow

00:01:04   is that different bums up I think it's

00:01:06   different from like or a thumbs up like

00:01:09   I think thumbs up is liking and if the

00:01:11   Bell is wanting if you want

00:01:13   notifications I think I wanna you and

00:01:14   hit that Bell different from subscribing

00:01:16   yeah I mean if there's any button

00:01:18   underneath something and it's positive

00:01:19   go ahead and press any of you push it

00:01:23   three times just in case like you can go

00:01:25   back to all of our like you know 100 and

00:01:27   whatever episodes do it on all exactly

00:01:30   go ahead and do it for all of the other

00:01:31   all of our past episodes and maybe leave

00:01:33   some comments yeah anyway so our main

00:01:38   topic today is we're going to talk

00:01:41   through this week there was a article

00:01:44   published on Bloomberg by mark Berman

00:01:47   which is you know the way many of these

00:01:49   Apple news things start and basically he

00:01:54   has a tip a lead a rumor that Apple is

00:01:59   working on a secret project codenamed

00:02:02   marzipan which is a a a project to

00:02:07   create a unified system for iOS and Mac

00:02:11   apps

00:02:12   run together and this is something that

00:02:15   we've talked about I was looking up and

00:02:17   we way back in the early days of the

00:02:19   show even we were talking about some of

00:02:22   the challenges of being Iowa's

00:02:24   developers and coming to the Mac and you

00:02:26   know wishing for there to be an easier

00:02:28   path and so you know if this actually is

00:02:30   a thing

00:02:30   which in a certain sense like whenever I

00:02:34   saw this it's like it seems eventually

00:02:37   this was going to happen you know to use

00:02:40   the infinite time scale argument like

00:02:41   this was somewhat inevitable that

00:02:43   eventually Apple was going to

00:02:44   consolidate their platforms and if you

00:02:46   know the rumors true and they're going

00:02:47   to be doing it in you know next summer

00:02:49   probably would be their goal you know

00:02:51   with WDC iOS 12 on the next version of

00:02:54   Mac OS like it's going to be if that's

00:03:00   actually true like this is a really

00:03:01   interesting thing and I think it will

00:03:02   create a lot of interesting

00:03:04   opportunities for you know for

00:03:07   development I think it would be really

00:03:09   interesting from a learning like the

00:03:13   abilities that you get from learning how

00:03:15   to make Apple apps that suddenly you can

00:03:18   make them on multiple platforms and

00:03:19   distribute them in potentially in

00:03:21   different ways I think there's a lot of

00:03:23   implications potentially on the business

00:03:24   side and is probably mixed news for

00:03:28   existing Mac developers that suddenly

00:03:30   you know being a all the skills and

00:03:33   Deveaux things that you have from being

00:03:35   a Mac developer maybe slightly less

00:03:37   significant or unique so anyway it

00:03:39   seemed like an interesting thing to kind

00:03:41   of unpack given you know given our

00:03:44   history with this topic and you know

00:03:46   there's a huge disclaimer that this is

00:03:48   just a rumor published in one article

00:03:50   literally today as we record like an

00:03:52   hour so so this is not only like you

00:03:56   know unabashedly our hot take on it and

00:03:59   we haven't had a whole lot of time to

00:04:00   think about it and we have no no

00:04:01   additional information but also it's

00:04:03   simply one article from mark ermine and

00:04:05   his track record has been okay but not

00:04:08   perfect so especially you know recently

00:04:10   it seems like it's kind of getting worse

00:04:11   honestly but you know so take this all

00:04:14   with a grain of salt this is a rumor

00:04:16   this is not fact this has not been

00:04:18   confirmed or commented on by Apple and

00:04:19   probably won't be for some time if ever

00:04:21   so all that said I am soup

00:04:26   excited about this so like to me you

00:04:31   know I'm an iOS developer I happen to

00:04:33   have made a couple of little mac apps

00:04:34   but it was like pulling teeth because I

00:04:37   am NOT an app kit expert

00:04:40   I am NOT a Mac development expert even

00:04:42   though I have used the Mac for a very

00:04:43   long time I have not developed for it

00:04:47   really and in any serious capacity ever

00:04:49   I've done little toy things but that's

00:04:51   that's about it so for me when I program

00:04:55   on the Mac it feels first of all feels

00:04:58   very antiquated and in some ways not

00:05:01   everything but in some ways because app

00:05:03   kit is a much older API than UI kit it

00:05:06   has a lot more back Zhu Ike it was

00:05:08   created in part from the lessons they

00:05:10   learned from app kit like ten years

00:05:12   earlier or whatever it was so you know

00:05:15   app kit is very very cumbersome for me

00:05:19   as an iOS developer to use because it's

00:05:22   I take this thing but that I'm familiar

00:05:23   with and change a lot of how it works

00:05:27   add a whole bunch of stuff you have to

00:05:28   deal with make a lot of stuff different

00:05:30   for no good reason by modern standards

00:05:33   like maybe it was that way for some time

00:05:35   or forever ago but you know now it's

00:05:37   like if you look at what the needs are

00:05:38   now for these platforms like a lot of

00:05:40   things are just different for for no

00:05:42   good reason anymore or for legacy

00:05:45   reasons that that no longer apply or

00:05:47   shouldn't need to apply and so ab kit

00:05:50   development is very slow very cumbersome

00:05:53   for iOS developers and because of that

00:05:57   it's also just expensive you know and in

00:06:00   the time the time it takes and the

00:06:03   resources it takes if you have to hire

00:06:06   Mac programmers there are way fewer of

00:06:09   them than there are I Oh s programmers

00:06:11   so it's it's probably more expensive for

00:06:13   big companies as well and the Mac user

00:06:15   base is smaller than the iOS user base

00:06:18   by a good amount and so the result of

00:06:21   this has been so far that iOS developers

00:06:24   big and small which basically means all

00:06:27   app developers these days like pretty

00:06:29   much every major business and service

00:06:31   has iOS apps almost every major

00:06:34   developer either days either ignores the

00:06:37   Mac completely as a platform for their

00:06:40   or service or they treat it as a

00:06:42   second-class citizen because it has

00:06:45   smaller numbers of people and it's way

00:06:48   harder and more expensive for most

00:06:49   people to develop for so this is a

00:06:53   problem so even if you ignore the

00:06:55   technical arguments even if fans of apke

00:06:58   can tell us why it's better in certain

00:07:00   ways which it is or why it's more

00:07:02   advanced in a lot of ways which it is or

00:07:04   why things are done this way for good

00:07:06   reasons which they are all of that is

00:07:08   secondary to this massive economics

00:07:11   problem of there's tons of people

00:07:14   writing iOS code and who can write iOS

00:07:16   code it's like this massive like

00:07:19   universal language now for mobile apps

00:07:21   because of the market realities of these

00:07:23   platforms so like every business is

00:07:25   writing iOS apps but the Mac is like you

00:07:30   know if we get to it maybe someday or if

00:07:34   you write a Mac app it's maybe an

00:07:36   electron app or some other kind of you

00:07:38   know wrapper or you're like

00:07:39   cross-platform language where you're

00:07:41   really just writing like JavaScript or

00:07:42   web code or something like that and it's

00:07:45   being run in in WebKit on a Mac which is

00:07:47   fine you know like big apps like slack

00:07:50   are done that way it's fine but it's not

00:07:53   good and there's lots of major downsides

00:07:56   to that kind of app like especially like

00:07:57   memory usage and performance stuff like

00:07:59   that native integration type stuff so

00:08:02   that's not a great situation to be in

00:08:03   and also just a lot of apps just don't

00:08:05   have native apps in the math they just

00:08:07   use websites it's like all right well

00:08:09   you can log in to our website and do

00:08:11   this and I'm just I am a huge example of

00:08:14   this in my own head obviously you know

00:08:16   this is exactly how overcast works like

00:08:17   I don't have a Mac app I have considered

00:08:20   making a Mac app before there are a

00:08:21   couple of podcast apps that that have

00:08:24   made Mac apps and usually they have

00:08:26   killed them you just like the the other

00:08:29   indie podcast apps that made Mac

00:08:31   versions seem to like stop development

00:08:34   afterwards like it seemed like they just

00:08:36   like that was too much of a burden and

00:08:38   it just you know was the last nail in

00:08:39   the coffin or something and I'm afraid

00:08:41   of that happening to me if I if I would

00:08:43   do the same thing because it's a totally

00:08:45   different platform like if I were to if

00:08:47   I were to try to port overcast to Mac

00:08:49   today I could I could very easily just

00:08:53   copy over and use the core library

00:08:56   functions of things like the database

00:08:58   the sync engine and most or all of the

00:09:01   audio engine because like all those

00:09:02   low-level frameworks have been unified

00:09:04   for the most part with not a lot of

00:09:06   exceptions at least in the way I'm using

00:09:07   them but the UI would have to be

00:09:11   completely rewritten from scratch and

00:09:15   you could make an argument and many

00:09:17   people have that you should write custom

00:09:21   UIs from scratch for a completely

00:09:23   different new platform than than what

00:09:25   you've written before because and in an

00:09:28   ideal world that's true in an ideal

00:09:30   world yes I would write a whole custom

00:09:32   Mac UI because the Mac is not iOS you

00:09:36   know controlled controls are totally

00:09:38   different the environments totally

00:09:39   different windowing is totally different

00:09:41   like there's all sorts of major platform

00:09:44   differences between the two that you

00:09:46   shouldn't just like be running an iOS

00:09:48   app in a window on the Mac like that's

00:09:50   that's not a great way to do this but

00:09:52   the reality is because developing on the

00:09:56   Mac is such a huge investment for for an

00:10:00   established iOS developer and because

00:10:03   there are way more of us than Mac

00:10:04   developers and and that's probably going

00:10:07   to continue to go that direction because

00:10:09   of this of these economic differences

00:10:11   the reality is not that we are choosing

00:10:14   between having good Mac apps and having

00:10:18   some kind of cross-platform thing the

00:10:21   reality is that we're choosing between

00:10:22   having the cross-platform thing or no

00:10:25   Mac apps and it's not to say that the

00:10:28   entire Mac App Market will go a way that

00:10:29   exists today we don't know what this is

00:10:31   this could be just another option this

00:10:33   could be like another framework you can

00:10:35   use you know a platform that you can use

00:10:37   to develop Mac apps with it as an

00:10:38   alternative to advocate that's how I

00:10:41   would guess they would do it because

00:10:42   Apple has a whole bunch of app kit code

00:10:44   themselves they're not gonna get rid of

00:10:45   that kid so I think the existing like

00:10:47   Mac market is fine and they would be

00:10:50   totally you know totally totally fine to

00:10:53   keep going in that way I don't think

00:10:55   this is a threat to them in this short

00:10:56   term in the long term it probably is but

00:10:59   I think in the long term it's very clear

00:11:00   that Apple has not been moving app kit

00:11:03   forward very aggressively they have not

00:11:05   been investing heavily into it

00:11:07   just like the rest of the Mac basically

00:11:08   and I think the biggest threat honestly

00:11:11   probably to Mac developers is just the

00:11:14   devaluing in some ways of their unique

00:11:16   skill like it reminds me of people who

00:11:18   were say Fortran developers or COBOL

00:11:20   developers right like if you have this

00:11:22   very distinctive skill that if you are a

00:11:24   app kit genius like that is a unique

00:11:28   marketable valuable thing right now that

00:11:31   if a company decides they want a Mac app

00:11:33   there's not as many people who can do an

00:11:36   exceptional job of that and in a weird

00:11:40   way that meat might be slightly devalued

00:11:42   by this just in the sense that if it's

00:11:44   now it's something that is possible for

00:11:45   a broader range of people you know to do

00:11:48   but I mean the thing is like it's it's a

00:11:52   weird thing when you start to get into

00:11:53   like well these apps won't be as good

00:11:54   potentially which is I think a common

00:11:57   reaction to this kind of thing it's like

00:11:58   well they're you know people are just

00:11:59   gonna make blown up iPhone apps maybe

00:12:02   that's true

00:12:03   I mean in many ways it makes me think of

00:12:05   the iPad though where I think for years

00:12:08   the iPad and the way that it was sort of

00:12:11   technically structured was that while it

00:12:13   was still UIKit under you know in terms

00:12:15   of the libraries you were using you know

00:12:17   you the way that you were encouraged to

00:12:20   develop an iPad app was that it was a

00:12:23   completely separate sort of visual fork

00:12:27   in your application that you would you

00:12:30   know you would launch into your I've had

00:12:31   app or we would launch into your iPhone

00:12:33   app and then with the size classing

00:12:36   changes and the introduction of the

00:12:38   slide over and thus you know the one

00:12:40   quarter with ipad apps and all these

00:12:42   things that largely went away I think

00:12:45   they there was the encouragement started

00:12:47   to become that it's it's like being a an

00:12:50   adaptable iPhone app is good enough and

00:12:54   is probably sufficient for most

00:12:55   situations and may not be optimized that

00:12:57   when you are running that app on you

00:13:00   know a big on the biggest where for the

00:13:02   12 inch iPad pro like it's not going to

00:13:05   be ideal potentially but it works and it

00:13:07   will be there and it's certainly better

00:13:09   than just having the like the 2x iPhone

00:13:12   blow-up version which was what you know

00:13:16   the situation we found ourselves in

00:13:18   before and I expect we would have a

00:13:19   similar thing

00:13:20   moving to the Mac where you know most if

00:13:25   you if your app has an iPad app imagine

00:13:28   running that iPad app on a Mac and you

00:13:30   are probably pretty close to something

00:13:32   that is very usable workable like would

00:13:36   feel not and it may not feel native in

00:13:39   the sense of what we consider native now

00:13:41   but the reality is from probably for an

00:13:44   increasing number of people what feel is

00:13:46   native and natural is iOS and the Mac is

00:13:49   the foreign thing and it could even be

00:13:52   reassuring and encouraging to somebody

00:13:55   who comes to you know if they come to

00:13:57   the Mac and the Mac feels like iOS like

00:14:00   the thing they know that may actually be

00:14:03   a positive rather than a negative for

00:14:04   them and so I think the like dismissing

00:14:09   this in any way for like it's like oh

00:14:10   it's going to lead to these kind of you

00:14:13   know these shovel where you know I

00:14:15   iPhone apps they're just gonna be blown

00:14:17   up onto the screen or you know running

00:14:18   in teeny little windows it's like maybe

00:14:20   but like having something like if

00:14:24   suddenly they're now being a million new

00:14:26   apps available for the Mac like that

00:14:29   would be awesome

00:14:30   that would be I think like there's no

00:14:31   world in which that's a bad thing

00:14:33   I don't think like having that

00:14:35   opportunity like I like that as

00:14:37   something you know maybe they won't work

00:14:40   wonderfully maybe it's not perfect but

00:14:42   it's not like the Mac is this

00:14:44   flourishing ecosystem that is you know

00:14:47   is continuing to grow and develop and

00:14:49   attract new developers you know had you

00:14:51   know in droves it's like no it's not and

00:14:54   that it's like I think this is a it's

00:14:57   easy to perhaps get stuck on the ideal

00:15:00   sense of what pop you could imagine

00:15:02   versus the pragmatic reality of if Apple

00:15:05   went down this road if they made it

00:15:07   really easy for iOS developers to

00:15:09   essentially just add like you know this

00:15:11   app can run on the Mac and when it's in

00:15:12   the Mac it has maybe a slightly

00:15:14   different size class but otherwise like

00:15:17   it's pretty much just the same like

00:15:19   that's pretty cool to me like I'm on

00:15:21   board with that I think that would be

00:15:22   really interesting and overall like it

00:15:26   just creates so much more opportunity

00:15:27   and it creates such a value an increased

00:15:29   value in learning how to make Iowa you

00:15:31   know iOS apps or UI kid or whatever the

00:15:33   new thing is it's like the that that all

00:15:36   that skill and development that we've

00:15:38   developed now suddenly becomes that much

00:15:40   more valuable and interesting we respond

00:15:43   to this week by fresh books to all the

00:15:45   freelancers out there you know how

00:15:46   important it is to make smart decisions

00:15:47   for your business fresh books can save

00:15:50   you hours and hours with their cloud

00:15:53   accounting software for freelancers that

00:15:55   is ridiculously easy to use by

00:15:57   simplifying tasks like invoicing

00:15:58   tracking expenses and getting paid

00:16:00   online fresh books has drastically

00:16:02   reduced the time it takes for over 10

00:16:04   million people to deal with their

00:16:06   paperwork fresh books it has so many

00:16:08   great features that make it just easy to

00:16:10   get paid so for instance when you email

00:16:12   a client fresh books can show you

00:16:13   whether they've seen the invoice or not

00:16:15   which puts an end to the guessing game

00:16:17   and the awkward conversations and they

00:16:20   automate late-payment email reminders so

00:16:22   you can spend less time chasing down

00:16:23   late payments and more time just doing

00:16:26   your work fresh books may not have over

00:16:28   10 million users but they've managed to

00:16:30   stay a pretty small company also lending

00:16:32   the title of small giant on Forbes list

00:16:34   of best small companies this year if

00:16:36   you're listening to this and you are not

00:16:38   using fresh books yet now is the time to

00:16:40   try it fresh books is offering an

00:16:42   unrestricted 30-day free trial for

00:16:44   listeners of this show with no credit

00:16:46   card required all you have to do is go

00:16:48   to fresh books comm slash radar and

00:16:51   enter under the radar in the how did you

00:16:53   hear about us section thank you so much

00:16:55   to fresh books for their support of this

00:16:56   show so you mentioned a minute ago the

00:16:59   the idea of being ideal versus pragmatic

00:17:03   and I think this is this is the overall

00:17:04   theme of this of this kind of concept

00:17:07   like assuming this is real or or you

00:17:09   know if this happens real versus

00:17:12   pragmatic is a is an argument that a lot

00:17:15   of people have trouble with because a

00:17:17   lot like it's it seems unfair or unjust

00:17:21   or non-ideal to two especially for

00:17:25   people who really care a lot which is

00:17:27   pretty pretty common in the Mac fan

00:17:29   community because that's the kind of

00:17:31   people who historically have loved Apple

00:17:32   products cuz Apple really cared a lot

00:17:33   but it's it's very common like mental

00:17:37   friction ticket over that like sometimes

00:17:39   the best solution is actually the most

00:17:41   pragmatic one which might not be the the

00:17:45   the like you know

00:17:46   objectively like best quality one or the

00:17:49   one that you want or the one that you

00:17:51   think should be like everyone article

00:17:53   forever ago my blog called right versus

00:17:55   pragmatic that was actually about

00:17:56   bathroom trashcan placement but but this

00:17:59   is you know it's a similar argument

00:18:01   which is like you can make a good

00:18:03   argument that what should happen is

00:18:05   everyone who wants to make a mac app

00:18:08   should do it like the most like native

00:18:10   original old-school way which is app kit

00:18:12   sorry classic my people that's I know

00:18:14   this is not old-school to you but you

00:18:17   know app kit is old-school these days

00:18:19   and and you can make a great argument

00:18:21   that all Mac apps should be app kit and

00:18:23   should be fully native and should be

00:18:25   designed from scratch for the Mac with

00:18:27   the Mac in mind and you're right that

00:18:29   should be the case but the reality is

00:18:31   different the reality is that the Mac is

00:18:34   a neglected platform by a lot of people

00:18:37   these days including on many levels

00:18:39   Apple you know Apple is not able to keep

00:18:43   up with their own apps doing very well

00:18:45   on the Mac anymore you know Apple

00:18:47   versions of of their cross-platform apps

00:18:50   the Mac versions like photos usually

00:18:53   have fewer features or you know or like

00:18:55   no it's like these are fewer features or

00:18:57   they have more bugs or you know or they

00:19:00   don't even really take advantage fully

00:19:01   of the Mac itself or they're just kind

00:19:04   of weird designs that never get touched

00:19:05   like reminders and so even Apple can't

00:19:09   keep up with their own apps their own

00:19:12   first party apps on this platform even

00:19:14   they are having trouble maintaining

00:19:15   these two different platforms and

00:19:16   justifying the effort it takes to to you

00:19:18   know move the Mac forward meaningfully

00:19:19   so if they're if are only you know the

00:19:24   the ideal choice is everyone should

00:19:25   invest infinitely into the Mac until

00:19:27   everything can be great but that isn't

00:19:29   one of our choices in reality in reality

00:19:31   our choices are well here's how people

00:19:33   actually work here's the actual

00:19:34   economics actual trade-offs that are

00:19:36   involved here and so our actual choice

00:19:40   is between moving the direction like

00:19:42   this rumor which is a more unified UI

00:19:45   framework more unified app platform

00:19:47   between Mac and iOS or having the Mac

00:19:50   continue to languish having a lot more

00:19:52   apps switch to like you know the WebKit

00:19:55   electron kind of style where everything

00:19:57   is non native anyway and bad

00:19:59   performing and a huge ram hog which

00:20:02   makes your max suck more like that's the

00:20:04   alternative here it's it's not the

00:20:07   alternative is not that we're gonna you

00:20:09   know educate the world into using app

00:20:11   kit that's not that ship has sailed

00:20:12   that's not going to happen so if these

00:20:15   are our options which newsflash they are

00:20:18   I'd rather have the option that gives us

00:20:20   more Mac apps than the option that gives

00:20:23   us fewer crappier ones and I think -

00:20:27   it's also this creates so many

00:20:29   interesting possibilities like the in

00:20:32   some of them are kind of tangential but

00:20:35   like for me I'm kind of excited about

00:20:37   the positive being able to ship iOS apps

00:20:41   without needing a sandbox or app review

00:20:45   potentially that's interesting like

00:20:47   suddenly that like I mean it's so so you

00:20:51   know that all of the apps for the most

00:20:52   part that I've ever shipped have gone

00:20:55   have to go through app review if go you

00:20:56   know are from the App Store and that

00:20:58   constrains and limits the types of

00:21:01   things that I can do the types of risks

00:21:03   I want to take you know like I have been

00:21:06   bit by app review enough times that you

00:21:08   know there's a certain consciousness and

00:21:10   carefulness that I have to adopt when

00:21:12   I'm working on my apps

00:21:13   it's kind of interesting that if for me

00:21:16   to be able to use the skills I have at

00:21:17   this point potentially to ship apps you

00:21:20   know if I would hope anyway that if you

00:21:23   know if Apple did something like this

00:21:24   they wouldn't be you know only available

00:21:26   you'd only be you know somehow able to

00:21:28   run these apps if they were came from

00:21:30   the Mac App Store like hopefully you

00:21:32   would be able to just run them independe

00:21:33   independe anew as Mac apps you know with

00:21:36   the developer ID code signing you know

00:21:38   that kind of that that level of security

00:21:39   that I could just you know sign it

00:21:42   myself put it out on my website and

00:21:43   distribute it like that's a really

00:21:45   interesting opportunity and possibility

00:21:47   and allows for new things and like

00:21:50   that's really cool to me like those

00:21:51   types of things are not restrict goal of

00:21:55   this but as I creates these new

00:21:57   opportunities and I just I love I love

00:21:59   situations that it's like you create it

00:22:01   it takes something that is existing and

00:22:03   creates new opportunities for it then I

00:22:05   don't exactly know like if tomorrow

00:22:07   Apple announced this platform then it's

00:22:09   like you know we've added this great new

00:22:10   thing you know you

00:22:12   can with relatively little effort make a

00:22:15   well your existing iOS apps run nicely

00:22:17   and natively on the Mac like I don't

00:22:20   know exactly what I would do I would

00:22:22   give some serious thought to what I

00:22:24   could do with that because there's a lot

00:22:27   of interesting things that I think

00:22:28   become possible in that world and I

00:22:30   think that I could imagine wanting to

00:22:32   try and experiment with in a bit more of

00:22:34   a creative way and it's nice to not have

00:22:37   it over the back of my mind well this

00:22:39   has to go through app review this has to

00:22:40   you know be conformant with all of the

00:22:42   app review stuff and so if it if I now

00:22:45   have this you know this alternative

00:22:47   place that I can go in experiment that's

00:22:49   really cool too and a lot of the initial

00:22:52   reaction has also focused on user

00:22:55   pricing expectations and and things like

00:22:58   devaluing a Mac apps to iOS app levels

00:23:00   and this is certainly a reasonable

00:23:03   concern for people to have but I think I

00:23:07   kind of think a combination of two

00:23:09   conflicting viewpoints either a it won't

00:23:10   do that but be that ship has already

00:23:12   sailed and that already has happened you

00:23:15   know the Mac justifies higher prices

00:23:19   today for a lot of apps not because they

00:23:22   were difficult to write but but because

00:23:25   or you know not that I assume Africa

00:23:28   developers wouldn't classify it as

00:23:29   difficult but you know what I mean like

00:23:30   not because they were written an app kit

00:23:32   that's not why they're expensive

00:23:32   compared to iOS apps and you know and I

00:23:36   think if you look at the actual pricing

00:23:38   history of a lot of Mac apps there's

00:23:39   already been downward pressure on

00:23:41   pricing by by quite a lot and for quite

00:23:43   a long time ever since the iOS App Store

00:23:46   shipped at all so I think that ship has

00:23:50   already sailed to a large degree and if

00:23:54   if there is already pressure on your app

00:23:57   to get its price down that pressure will

00:24:00   still be there if there wasn't already

00:24:03   pressure on your app to get its price

00:24:04   down well first of all you probably

00:24:05   aren't charging enough but second of all

00:24:08   the reason why Mac apps have been able

00:24:11   to charge good money is often because

00:24:13   they actually deliver meaningful value

00:24:16   to people in a way that they are willing

00:24:18   to pay for and so that's things like

00:24:22   apps people use to get their work done

00:24:23   very specialized apps that

00:24:26   there really aren't good alternatives

00:24:27   for apps that save people significant

00:24:30   amounts of time in their day and you

00:24:32   know like that's the reason why app

00:24:35   prices have been pushed down is not

00:24:37   because Apple won't give us you know

00:24:38   trials or upgrades or whatever it is in

00:24:40   the App Store like whatever we're

00:24:41   complaining about that year that's not

00:24:43   the reason why prices have been pushed

00:24:45   down the reason is because on iOS

00:24:48   there's tons of developers so there's

00:24:49   tons of competition and most developers

00:24:52   expect to be able to make money from

00:24:54   from just good work regardless of how

00:24:57   much you value it delivers to the

00:24:59   customer on the Mac the apps that make

00:25:01   money are not just any Mac apps they're

00:25:04   apps that like you know I'm willing to

00:25:06   pay like 50 bucks for an app that helps

00:25:08   me produce podcast every week because

00:25:09   that's my job I'm willing I'm willing to

00:25:11   pay good money for tools like I think I

00:25:14   think my my get app was like 80 bucks I

00:25:16   consider that a great value paint code

00:25:18   my icon drawing app I think was a

00:25:20   hundred that was also a great value you

00:25:22   know the the apps that I use to get my

00:25:25   job done or that save me significant

00:25:27   time are valuable and are worth paying

00:25:30   for and if this iOS you know to Mac

00:25:34   crossover app thing happens that will

00:25:37   still be the case the only risk to

00:25:40   pricing on it on the large scale I think

00:25:43   is that this will bring a lot more

00:25:46   developers to the platform and so there

00:25:49   will just be more competition but I

00:25:51   think you know history of the world has

00:25:54   proven that that's generally a good

00:25:56   thing even if it might not be good for

00:25:58   certain people who are there now who

00:26:01   have had the platform more to themselves

00:26:03   and have kind of locked up the whole

00:26:04   market just by the you know difficulty

00:26:07   or obscurity of the platform you know as

00:26:09   part of a commuting factor if you now

00:26:11   have more competition more people can

00:26:13   develop Mac apps yeah that might not be

00:26:15   good for like the handful of people who

00:26:16   are there already but it's really good

00:26:18   for the users and for pretty much

00:26:20   everyone else and all those new

00:26:21   developers who can now make careers here

00:26:23   where they weren't before so that those

00:26:26   are the concerns but I think and I think

00:26:29   those are you know either unwarranted or

00:26:31   missing the big picture and I think too

00:26:34   if you're if your business if it's

00:26:37   stated sustainability is

00:26:39   fragile to the degree that in ink the

00:26:42   introduction of additional competitors

00:26:45   makes it fall apart yeah like you were

00:26:48   in a bad position to start with and like

00:26:50   I feeI really have genuine sympathy for

00:26:53   people who find themselves in that

00:26:54   situation I've been in that situation

00:26:56   like early days of the eye I mean early

00:26:59   days of being an iOS developer like wait

00:27:01   you know whatever eight years ago it was

00:27:03   really like I could make good money from

00:27:05   being in the App Store just because

00:27:06   there weren't that many other apps in

00:27:08   the App Store

00:27:09   so being one of them was great but

00:27:11   eventually like that gravy train came

00:27:14   you know came to an end and I had to

00:27:15   adapt and had to move on and that

00:27:18   process has been difficult and that

00:27:19   process has not always been comfortable

00:27:21   but I think that is the reality and it's

00:27:24   the understanding that you know the

00:27:27   position I found myself in back then was

00:27:29   not because of something that I was

00:27:32   entitled to or had you know uniquely

00:27:35   achieved it's like it was it was more a

00:27:38   circumstance of timing of luck of being

00:27:42   the right place at the right time

00:27:43   and eventually that time changed and I

00:27:46   think it'll be the same thing here and

00:27:48   it's like it's just going to be this

00:27:49   question of fine you know you're finding

00:27:51   a way to bridge the gap and it's like

00:27:53   well if you're an existing Mac app and

00:27:55   you have like if anything you have this

00:27:57   great head start because you can

00:27:59   presumably make apps that still stand

00:28:02   out and that are still better than an

00:28:05   app that is not really you know is not

00:28:07   coming from somebody with the you know

00:28:09   that length of experience even if it's

00:28:11   you are still you know developing an iOS

00:28:14   or whatever the equivalent you know

00:28:16   framework that this is going to be you

00:28:18   know I would imagine and expect that if

00:28:20   you are a lifelong Mac developer and

00:28:22   Jewish and you'd start developing a new

00:28:24   Mac app with these tools it should be

00:28:27   better it should be more informed have

00:28:29   more you know have standout in a way

00:28:31   that would you know give it an advantage

00:28:33   but the reality is yeah it's like if

00:28:35   it's like you could imagine the over the

00:28:37   word it's like well people are just

00:28:38   gonna expect to get the mac app for free

00:28:40   when they get them to get the iPhone app

00:28:42   and it's like yeah probably

00:28:44   they already expect that they're ready

00:28:45   they already do and this is just in one

00:28:47   other the next form of that and this is

00:28:49   this is the next place this is going to

00:28:51   happen and that's not great that's

00:28:53   uncomfortable but I think it's also in

00:28:55   some ways it's necessary for the

00:28:57   platform to move forward and so it's

00:28:59   really sad and tricky and complicated

00:29:01   and I have great sympathy for people

00:29:03   they find themselves in the situation

00:29:04   but that's you know that that's where

00:29:07   that that's where this tide is rising

00:29:08   too and we're just going to have to you

00:29:10   know get in our boats and hope for the

00:29:11   best

00:29:12   thanks for listening everybody I'm gonna

00:29:14   talk to you next week bye