Roderick on the Line

Ep. 275: "I Want an Adult"


01:00:00   what are you paying for the place [TS]

01:00:05   exactly where are we staying yeah am I [TS]

01:00:08   staying with you that only happened [TS]

01:00:13   because in that four months she and I [TS]

01:00:15   talked on Twitter with a bunch of other [TS]

01:00:18   people who were also fun and funny all [TS]

01:00:20   day you know by the time she made that [TS]

01:00:22   phone call we knew each other yeah yeah [TS]

01:00:25   and what when would that have ever [TS]

01:00:27   happened before you know so anyway this [TS]

01:00:29   proposal was like why don't we just buy [TS]

01:00:32   it and and declare it a UNESCO site and [TS]

01:00:36   we'll govern it and we won't let Nazis [TS]

01:00:41   and we won't let boobs and butts and we [TS]

01:00:45   will restore it to what it was which was [TS]

01:00:49   like a like a true human accomplishment [TS]

01:00:52   and every was like between a national [TS]

01:00:55   park and a Superfund site right what [TS]

01:00:58   starts as a Superfund site but we'd like [TS]

01:01:00   to eventually turn it into a national [TS]

01:01:01   parks leaves a little bit and it seemed [TS]

01:01:07   it seemed briefly plausible like wow [TS]

01:01:11   right the people at Twitter don't care [TS]

01:01:13   anymore all they want as money they just [TS]

01:01:15   want to get out I think probably most of [TS]

01:01:18   them and give them their money you know [TS]

01:01:22   they made their money gets to keep their [TS]

01:01:24   accounts yeah you guys that's great jack [TS]

01:01:26   like here's some money is that what you [TS]

01:01:28   is that would that make you happy but [TS]

01:01:29   you can't beam back to your home planet [TS]

01:01:31   yeah you can go now go with your money [TS]

01:01:35   human emotions are strange [TS]

01:01:37   I mean emotions and leave it to us give [TS]

01:01:43   it back to us right but that idea that [TS]

01:01:46   every single thing needs to be monetized [TS]

01:01:49   to within an inch of its life that [TS]

01:01:51   Facebook doesn't have enough money and [TS]

01:01:53   that they need a billion more customers [TS]

01:01:55   because they need what to control [TS]

01:01:58   everything right what's your end game [TS]

01:02:02   what's the end game this you'll know [TS]

01:02:04   this will have been super successful in [TS]

01:02:06   what happens when what happened yeah [TS]

01:02:08   precisely and is the stuff you're doing [TS]

01:02:10   now is this the direction that you [TS]

01:02:12   consider moving too [TS]

01:02:13   other success and are we we are nothing [TS]

01:02:17   right we are just we a hundred thousand [TS]

01:02:21   people come and go every second matrix [TS]

01:02:23   batteries we're pod boys yeah I'm saying [TS]

01:02:26   just can't see on Ariz or the garden [TS]

01:02:29   hose in our neck I want to reach out to [TS]

01:02:31   people and say do you have a good idea [TS]

01:02:32   like the guy that had the idea of URLs [TS]

01:02:38   gave it to the world for free I mean he [TS]

01:02:43   just said here you go right I'm not [TS]

01:02:47   gonna copyright dot-com this is a thing [TS]

01:02:50   that needed to happen right and here it [TS]

01:02:54   is like I built it it didn't take that [TS]

01:02:56   much it was like a brainstorm I had and [TS]

01:02:58   it took a couple of little bits to build [TS]

01:03:01   but it didn't you know the idea that [TS]

01:03:05   Twitter or Facebook represent that some [TS]

01:03:09   intellectual property that we we we all [TS]

01:03:14   know was the result of like a one night [TS]

01:03:16   brainstorm and offend a few weeks of [TS]

01:03:19   coding like it isn't the same as [TS]

01:03:22   building the the infrastructure to bring [TS]

01:03:26   water to New York City right it just [TS]

01:03:28   isn't it was some guys in a dorm who [TS]

01:03:30   were like hahaha what if we what if we [TS]

01:03:34   made a website where you could judge [TS]

01:03:36   people's faces and thumbs-up thumbs-down [TS]

01:03:39   I mean it was it was like sick and it [TS]

01:03:41   score from the from the very dawn but [TS]

01:03:45   but Twitter I mean you know you know how [TS]

01:03:47   Twitter got me and you were there like [TS]

01:03:49   it was it was like oh I don't here why [TS]

01:03:52   don't we do this it'll be like an SMS [TS]

01:03:54   for friends and we can say like oh I'm [TS]

01:03:57   going to the taco place and then [TS]

01:03:58   everybody you won't have to text [TS]

01:04:00   everybody individually had a good run [TS]

01:04:01   like that's not a fucking idea that's [TS]

01:04:05   worth a billion dollars it's just a [TS]

01:04:07   fucking idea that you could have had and [TS]

01:04:10   given as much as you a little bit of [TS]

01:04:14   what happens in pharmaceuticals where [TS]

01:04:16   you come up with no like an axiom or [TS]

01:04:18   something they say you come up with [TS]

01:04:19   always the big allergy one like claritin [TS]

01:04:21   you come up with some new formulation [TS]

01:04:23   and you get a patent on it for how [TS]

01:04:25   many years like five years or whatever [TS]

01:04:26   is and then you have to re-up your [TS]

01:04:27   patent so you've got to figure out what [TS]

01:04:29   most of them I think end up doing is [TS]

01:04:31   slightly changing the delivery mechanism [TS]

01:04:33   and getting a patent on that we were [TS]

01:04:35   able to like string this out longer and [TS]

01:04:37   longer bridge like MIT can we Houston do [TS]

01:04:39   we like start giving the clarity in a [TS]

01:04:40   way at prices that are normal for [TS]

01:04:41   everybody it's like well that's not [TS]

01:04:43   really how this model works right we [TS]

01:04:46   move the button yay for us sorry about [TS]

01:04:49   the Nazis yeah you see that a lot where [TS]

01:04:52   where I feel like I've seen that several [TS]

01:04:55   startups that I that I have like sort of [TS]

01:04:58   tangential knowledge of where they had [TS]

01:05:01   15 employees and they felt like they [TS]

01:05:04   needed 50 in order to build the business [TS]

01:05:07   so they hired 50 but then they've got 50 [TS]

01:05:09   employees and they need to earn money to [TS]

01:05:13   pay the 50 employees so they need a [TS]

01:05:15   hundred employees to make enough money [TS]

01:05:16   to pay the 50 employees and it's just [TS]

01:05:18   this like this mentality of the [TS]

01:05:22   voracious growth that no one wants to [TS]

01:05:25   run a 15 person company anymore that's [TS]

01:05:28   really good and sleek and makes an [TS]

01:05:31   income for everybody and is stable and [TS]

01:05:34   it's not growing by leaps and bounds and [TS]

01:05:36   you're not gonna sell it for fifteen [TS]

01:05:39   million dollars when you're 28 years old [TS]

01:05:41   it's just a job that you gave yourself [TS]

01:05:44   but that's like pleasing and you go home [TS]

01:05:47   at night and you feel satisfied by your [TS]

01:05:48   work like my mom was talking about her [TS]

01:05:51   brother the other day and she said well [TS]

01:05:53   he retired from you know so hyoe at 50 [TS]

01:05:59   and I said he retired at 50 she said [TS]

01:06:04   yeah that's what used to happen you'd [TS]

01:06:05   started a job when you were 20 and then [TS]

01:06:07   50 you'd worked there 30 years and you [TS]

01:06:09   retired with a full retirement I was [TS]

01:06:13   like am I just hearing about this for [TS]

01:06:15   the first time is this what people talk [TS]

01:06:17   about when they say this that things [TS]

01:06:19   have changed what do you mean what did [TS]

01:06:23   he do then oh you know he got a sailboat [TS]

01:06:26   and he did some stuff and I'm like 50 [TS]

01:06:29   I'm 50 yeah [TS]

01:06:31   I'm 50 I don't I don't have what are you [TS]

01:06:36   talking about yeah she's like think [TS]

01:06:37   about the people that join [TS]

01:06:39   the army when they're 20 Beirut ISIL [TS]

01:06:41   vote for a retired of forty retired [TS]

01:06:45   because she was rich or been retired [TS]

01:06:47   because she had done twenty years at a [TS]

01:06:48   company and guys she used Excel in the [TS]

01:06:50   Air Force for twenty years twenty years [TS]

01:06:54   she retired yeah from the Air Force yeah [TS]

01:06:56   yeah with with my fears thank you for [TS]

01:06:59   your service freedom you know Mike [TS]

01:07:17   Squires has did did a pretty good stint [TS]

01:07:21   in the Marine Corps really Mike grew up [TS]

01:07:25   in a in a very rural Washington town and [TS]

01:07:28   the and the kind of the writing was on [TS]

01:07:31   the wall about how life was gonna go and [TS]

01:07:33   he decided that he was not gonna go that [TS]

01:07:37   way [TS]

01:07:38   and joined the Marines the family math [TS]

01:07:39   business yeah he was he said you know [TS]

01:07:42   I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take over [TS]

01:07:44   from my from the from the weakest uncle [TS]

01:07:48   as the young younger enforcer for the [TS]

01:07:57   yeah uncle Tony [TS]

01:08:01   sorry pal come take a walk with us in [TS]

01:08:05   the desert the keys to the pickup truck [TS]

01:08:12   you shall wear the crap he joined the [TS]

01:08:16   Marines that he got out he got out of [TS]

01:08:18   his little town he got out of the cycle [TS]

01:08:20   of rural shittiness took the midnight [TS]

01:08:23   train going anywhere [TS]

01:08:24   did the streetlight people and then very [TS]

01:08:32   crucially he did not go back to his [TS]

01:08:35   little shitty town with his duffel bag [TS]

01:08:37   and like hug his high school sweetheart [TS]

01:08:39   he went to Seattle and he bought a bass [TS]

01:08:41   guitar and was like fuck it but what he [TS]

01:08:45   did in the Marines was sat at a [TS]

01:08:48   typewriter yeah and he's got that's a [TS]

01:08:50   lot of people I mean he go [TS]

01:08:52   big biceps and he's got tattoos that say [TS]

01:08:54   like USMC anyway impugning my Corps or [TS]

01:08:58   Marines in general but that's that's [TS]

01:08:59   part of what makes me laugh in a way [TS]

01:09:01   I'll never laugh publicly is like when [TS]

01:09:03   everybody's always just jizzing [TS]

01:09:04   themselves so hard over the troops in [TS]

01:09:06   the first-responder is that it's like [TS]

01:09:07   yeah but you know they also they got [TS]

01:09:11   their education and their pension and [TS]

01:09:13   everything paid for in a way that my [TS]

01:09:14   kids teacher does not the you know the [TS]

01:09:18   the support staff Merlyn is just as [TS]

01:09:21   important as those frontline troops the [TS]

01:09:22   wrestler is important as the notes I am [TS]

01:09:24   mocking Mike just because it's gender [TS]

01:09:29   salutely kick my ass sure even right now [TS]

01:09:33   even as fat as he is you know one of [TS]

01:09:51   those one of those things when I'm [TS]

01:09:52   sitting around not thinking about [TS]

01:09:53   burying shipping containers in the [TS]

01:09:55   desert to put Donald Rumsfeld yeah you [TS]

01:09:58   know a big a big a big idea that isn't [TS]

01:10:02   really even that big is the idea of [TS]

01:10:03   national service that encompasses things [TS]

01:10:06   other than the army and you know the [TS]

01:10:09   Israeli model of 18 to 20 everybody [TS]

01:10:12   serves but you can choose to work for [TS]

01:10:17   the National Park Service cut trail [TS]

01:10:19   leave cut trail he worked for the [TS]

01:10:20   Department of the Interior you work for [TS]

01:10:23   the National Endowment for the Arts you [TS]

01:10:26   you know you do two years of public [TS]

01:10:29   service in one of a million different [TS]

01:10:34   ways but it'd be considered equivalent [TS]

01:10:37   to military service because if you do [TS]

01:10:40   totally agree voluntary work at the at [TS]

01:10:43   the National Endowment for the Arts [TS]

01:10:44   making it easier or you work for the [TS]

01:10:47   Department of Transportation like that [TS]

01:10:50   is that is an equivalent service to your [TS]

01:10:54   country and your people and the idea [TS]

01:10:56   that there you know [TS]

01:10:58   there are there are people risking their [TS]

01:11:01   lives on battlefields but in question [TS]

01:11:07   you know if the person who is driving [TS]

01:11:09   the truck that's bringing the bottled [TS]

01:11:10   water to the people that are doing that [TS]

01:11:14   work on the battlefield [TS]

01:11:15   is as integral to that machine as the [TS]

01:11:19   fighter then the people who are making [TS]

01:11:22   the roads back home work better and the [TS]

01:11:25   people that are making America stronger [TS]

01:11:27   by having a more devoted national [TS]

01:11:30   commitment to the arts are also engaged [TS]

01:11:32   in the same battle my kids my kids [TS]

01:11:34   principal works about 12 hours a day and [TS]

01:11:36   can't afford to live in San Francisco [TS]

01:11:37   yeah she's in East Bay yeah [TS]

01:11:40   and that's that's insane and that is a [TS]

01:11:42   terrible miss allocation of resources [TS]

01:11:45   but also it is it speaks to a like a [TS]

01:11:50   like a core to climb in our values that [TS]

01:11:53   I cannot I cannot yell enough about yeah [TS]

01:11:58   and I think people are both you know [TS]

01:11:59   people people may feel like this is all [TS]

01:12:03   some kind of crusty attitude and that [TS]

01:12:07   that once we turn the next corner and [TS]

01:12:12   we're all wearing heads-up displays and [TS]

01:12:13   walking around with Madame Butterfly [TS]

01:12:16   strapped in our Underpants I think it [TS]

01:12:22   does the cloud is like we are producing [TS]

01:12:26   7 milliliters effluvium hour it doesn't [TS]

01:12:32   waste your check it doesn't moisture [TS]

01:12:34   check - bump it was Nixon that won it [TS]

01:12:45   that took us into China right yeah it's [TS]

01:12:47   affixing yeah and as much as that's a [TS]

01:12:50   Mussolini made the trains run on time [TS]

01:12:52   argument yeah I also feel that it may [TS]

01:12:55   one day be a liberal Democrat or a [TS]

01:12:58   liberal politician that reintroduces the [TS]

01:13:01   idea of a compulsory national service a [TS]

01:13:05   peacetime draft [TS]

01:13:07   but that draft includes a and to work at [TS]

01:13:13   the Department of Transportation is [TS]

01:13:15   considered equivalent to having been in [TS]

01:13:17   the Army because because it is [TS]

01:13:19   ultimately and that if we you know we we [TS]

01:13:25   spend I spent a lot of time in the last [TS]

01:13:28   year talking to people in the military [TS]

01:13:29   and officers in the military and for the [TS]

01:13:32   most part they say the same thing which [TS]

01:13:35   is that they consider themselves [TS]

01:13:36   apolitical [TS]

01:13:39   but that they support the military and [TS]

01:13:42   so they support politicians that support [TS]

01:13:45   the military and those politicians tend [TS]

01:13:48   to be more Republican than Democrats so [TS]

01:13:50   that's how they fall but really right [TS]

01:13:53   they support the military and that is [TS]

01:13:55   their church and when you say to them [TS]

01:13:59   well alright but what about this weapons [TS]

01:14:02   platform that is a hundred times over [TS]

01:14:06   budget has been proved over and over [TS]

01:14:09   again to not work it was designed at a [TS]

01:14:12   time when the mission was different than [TS]

01:14:14   it is now so there's no mission for it [TS]

01:14:16   anymore it's a total boondoggle and if [TS]

01:14:19   they keep crashing how do you feel about [TS]

01:14:21   that and they're like well the billions [TS]

01:14:25   of dollars that we pour into that go to [TS]

01:14:26   the people that work for the military [TS]

01:14:29   and the companies that support the [TS]

01:14:31   military so even though it is a [TS]

01:14:33   shitstorm I believe that in the end it [TS]

01:14:37   benefits the country because it benefits [TS]

01:14:41   the military and that's the point at [TS]

01:14:43   which you realize like oh right they are [TS]

01:14:48   I understand that they're nonpartisan [TS]

01:14:51   but also they should not be in charge of [TS]

01:14:54   that decision mm-hmm because they have a [TS]

01:14:58   they can't be blamed for self-interest [TS]

01:15:02   makes it sound more nefarious than it is [TS]

01:15:04   but they they can't be faulted for doing [TS]

01:15:07   the thing that they think is right that [TS]

01:15:08   happens to support I mean they do yeah I [TS]

01:15:11   can fault them but but i but i but i do [TS]

01:15:14   feel like we have listeners we have less [TS]

01:15:16   producer we should thank the further [TS]

01:15:17   service they love it thank you all for [TS]

01:15:19   your service [TS]

01:15:21   I know we do and I know and I mean I'm [TS]

01:15:23   engaged in this debate with with several [TS]

01:15:25   of them offline but they lady M me and [TS]

01:15:29   they say that thing you said is wrong [TS]

01:15:32   and I say you're wrong and then we have [TS]

01:15:35   a lively discussion because everybody [TS]

01:15:37   loves to start that way but but note [TS]

01:15:40   that that is why we have civilian [TS]

01:15:42   oversight of the military but the [TS]

01:15:44   problem is that if you put into office [TS]

01:15:45   people that get into office by saying I [TS]

01:15:48   will reflexively support the military [TS]

01:15:50   without ever questioning them yeah you [TS]

01:15:53   get into this situation where you know [TS]

01:15:55   the like in Rome I hate to oh my god I'm [TS]

01:16:00   so going to cliche rule was as soon as [TS]

01:16:12   you stepped into Rome as a general or as [TS]

01:16:16   a as a Roman soldier you no longer were [TS]

01:16:21   in the Army in the city of Rome you were [TS]

01:16:26   a civilian you could not enter Rome as a [TS]

01:16:30   member of the army so the armies were [TS]

01:16:32   always outside of Rome [TS]

01:16:34   and the reason was that they were [TS]

01:16:38   worried obviously that or it was a way [TS]

01:16:40   of dealing with the fact that a that a [TS]

01:16:42   general could come back from it from a [TS]

01:16:44   triumphant battle and march into the [TS]

01:16:47   city and get himself elected the Caesar [TS]

01:16:52   in the in the in the frenzy of [TS]

01:16:56   outpouring of joy at the returning [TS]

01:17:00   conquering army so the army would return [TS]

01:17:03   and as soon as they walked in to town [TS]

01:17:05   they were civilians and it kept them you [TS]

01:17:12   know it kept them in check and it's not [TS]

01:17:14   that Roman generals didn't sometimes [TS]

01:17:17   ascend and a couple of notable times [TS]

01:17:19   marched in anyway but that was the that [TS]

01:17:23   was their mentality their way of church [TS]

01:17:26   and stating and we've kind of lost that [TS]

01:17:30   we've lost a crucial element of civilian [TS]

01:17:34   oversight [TS]

01:17:34   because our civilian our civilian like [TS]

01:17:42   branch of government has abdicated its [TS]

01:17:45   oversight responsibilities it's gotten [TS]

01:17:48   to enthrall you know there are too many [TS]

01:17:51   congressmen that are in thrall of the [TS]

01:17:53   military and there's too much money [TS]

01:17:54   floating around that they don't want to [TS]

01:17:56   miss out on mm-hmm [TS]

01:17:58   they all went to business school so [TS]

01:18:00   they're just looking for business [TS]

01:18:01   they're not they got no there's no [TS]

01:18:03   morality to it anymore [TS]

01:18:06   i-i-i jumped into an online conversation [TS]

01:18:10   and you might help me with this yeah [TS]

01:18:12   sure [TS]

01:18:12   hope anyway I can't there was I started [TS]

01:18:16   following a bunch of OPSEC people about [TS]

01:18:18   a year ago because I wanted out of the [TS]

01:18:20   of the thing where people were yelling [TS]

01:18:22   at each other yeah oh god I made a real [TS]

01:18:26   mistake oh my god it's like it's like [TS]

01:18:29   4chan with a CS degree you are poem with [TS]

01:18:32   your intent black hat but at one point [TS]

01:18:37   somebody in the academic CS community [TS]

01:18:40   was sending out tweets to the people in [TS]

01:18:45   their community saying we're having [TS]

01:18:47   we're starting a group like a an online [TS]

01:18:52   pink group where we're discussing ethics [TS]

01:18:57   in CS and we're trying to get a second [TS]

01:19:00   computer science computer science okay [TS]

01:19:02   we're trying to get academics people [TS]

01:19:05   that are working in the field people [TS]

01:19:08   that are you know theoretical about it [TS]

01:19:10   we're trying to get everybody together [TS]

01:19:12   to talk about you know to build a [TS]

01:19:17   framework of talking about ethics in in [TS]

01:19:19   computer science and so you know this [TS]

01:19:24   was an open invitation on the part of an [TS]

01:19:27   organizer to kind of you know come in [TS]

01:19:28   present your CV explain who you are and [TS]

01:19:33   from the basis of that will you know [TS]

01:19:37   will include you in this conversation [TS]

01:19:38   and it was kind of you know it's like a [TS]

01:19:40   typical sort of like who are you how do [TS]

01:19:43   you rank and we're gonna we're going to [TS]

01:19:45   include you in this conversation [TS]

01:19:47   with priority if you teach at Stanford [TS]

01:19:50   versus if you're a 24 year old coder [TS]

01:19:53   right right which made sense but I wrote [TS]

01:19:56   him and said hi I am NOT in computer [TS]

01:19:59   science but I really want to be engaged [TS]

01:20:03   in the conversation around ethics in [TS]

01:20:06   computer science and I humbly submit [TS]

01:20:11   that you could have some civilian lay [TS]

01:20:15   people in this conversation because it [TS]

01:20:18   feels like you guys might get into a [TS]

01:20:21   little bit of a think bubble with one [TS]

01:20:23   another because some of the presumptions [TS]

01:20:26   that you're all operating from maybe are [TS]

01:20:29   the wellspring of some of these ethical [TS]

01:20:34   questions that you're struggling with [TS]

01:20:36   like maybe it's up maybe it's up above [TS]

01:20:40   some of your first presumptions or maybe [TS]

01:20:42   it's just a thing that you never looked [TS]

01:20:43   at this this way because you all think a [TS]

01:20:46   certain way but it seems like some lay [TS]

01:20:51   thinkers might have a have a place here [TS]

01:20:54   I mean in putting it it would be putting [TS]

01:20:57   it strongly to say you'd be the court [TS]

01:20:58   jester but you could be there to be a [TS]

01:21:00   smart person asking a question that [TS]

01:21:01   doesn't come up very often right which [TS]

01:21:03   sometimes might be a silly obvious [TS]

01:21:05   questions and other time it might be [TS]

01:21:06   thought-provoking and help them to [TS]

01:21:08   clarify their thinking on something by [TS]

01:21:10   having to explain it to Adam that's like [TS]

01:21:11   you that's right and and if you you know [TS]

01:21:15   if your explanation to a numbnuts is [TS]

01:21:17   well everybody knows what this is [TS]

01:21:19   and the numbnuts says that's not true [TS]

01:21:22   yeah you do maybe come at things from a [TS]

01:21:26   different from a different way you can't [TS]

01:21:28   talk about ethics in computer science [TS]

01:21:31   without recognizing that you're talking [TS]

01:21:35   about ethics and not computer science [TS]

01:21:38   because if you're talking about ethics [TS]

01:21:40   and computer science and you think [TS]

01:21:42   you're talking about computer science [TS]

01:21:43   then you're going to come to the same [TS]

01:21:45   conclusions you came to before if you're [TS]

01:21:48   talking about ethics you're talking on a [TS]

01:21:50   different discipline and computer [TS]

01:21:52   scientists aren't experts at it you're [TS]

01:21:55   there there's nothing to suggest that [TS]

01:21:57   being good at computers means that [TS]

01:21:59   you're also good at the [TS]

01:22:00   Effects of what computers can and are [TS]

01:22:03   doing that is a separate discipline [TS]

01:22:07   anyway he wrote back and said I agree [TS]

01:22:12   how like how we're not meeting in a [TS]

01:22:19   Convention Center and giving speeches [TS]

01:22:21   we're creating an online community of [TS]

01:22:23   people that are doing this work and [TS]

01:22:25   we're using you know in these short [TS]

01:22:30   burst conversations we're using all the [TS]

01:22:32   nomenclature of our field and we're just [TS]

01:22:36   bippity-boppity-boo pack and forth with [TS]

01:22:39   c++ talky-talk how are you going to [TS]

01:22:49   engage in that conversation with us and [TS]

01:22:53   I said I cannot I cannot engage that way [TS]

01:22:59   with you and if the if the ethical if [TS]

01:23:03   what you're doing is creating like an [TS]

01:23:04   online community where people are [TS]

01:23:06   bounding or bouncing ideas off of each [TS]

01:23:08   other there's no there isn't a place for [TS]

01:23:10   me to tell hop in because nobody wants [TS]

01:23:15   to sit and explain to a layperson [TS]

01:23:16   something that everybody else in the [TS]

01:23:18   room gets in 140 characters right but I [TS]

01:23:22   guess I'm just if you are someone who is [TS]

01:23:25   organizing this community if you're [TS]

01:23:28   impelled to do it [TS]

01:23:30   let me just plant that seed in your head [TS]

01:23:32   that add a certain point other people [TS]

01:23:37   need to be a people that are not in [TS]

01:23:41   computer science or people who are not [TS]

01:23:43   biologists need to be part of the [TS]

01:23:47   bioethics conversation or the computer [TS]

01:23:49   science ethics conversation and you guys [TS]

01:23:54   you know people in computer science need [TS]

01:23:57   to acknowledge that and not have it be a [TS]

01:24:01   thing where you present your paper and [TS]

01:24:03   then a bunch of people are butthurt [TS]

01:24:05   about it and you're like but we did [TS]

01:24:07   everything we try you know why are you [TS]

01:24:09   so mad at us like that because this is [TS]

01:24:12   what we're in and I'm [TS]

01:24:14   get angry letters but this is where we [TS]

01:24:15   are with drone warfare because the [TS]

01:24:18   people that were doing the ethics talk [TS]

01:24:21   we're also the people that were [TS]

01:24:22   procuring and flying those drones and [TS]

01:24:25   there wasn't anybody in the chain that [TS]

01:24:27   was like okay let's let's come up with a [TS]

01:24:30   let's come up with a order of engagement [TS]

01:24:35   here or like a like a let's come up with [TS]

01:24:37   a a way that this is gonna integrate [TS]

01:24:41   into our civilian laws and our civilian [TS]

01:24:46   morals the people that we're doing that [TS]

01:24:48   work were in the military and or were in [TS]

01:24:53   the Congress authorizing the military to [TS]

01:24:55   do what I want and I know they're you [TS]

01:24:58   know I they're they're people in the [TS]

01:25:00   military that I argue with about this [TS]

01:25:03   but it was never it was never put forth [TS]

01:25:06   that's like how there's no monroe [TS]

01:25:08   doctrine about it right in a way it [TS]

01:25:11   violates the monroe doctrine so i don't [TS]

01:25:15   know how to do that other than in places [TS]

01:25:17   like this right yeah i mean you and i [TS]

01:25:18   sit and talk and we do we traipse over [TS]

01:25:22   into computer science ethics and we we [TS]

01:25:24   bumble around and I knock a vase off a [TS]

01:25:26   shelf and you say some things that I [TS]

01:25:29   don't understand and then we bumble you [TS]

01:25:31   know we waltz over into the next room [TS]

01:25:33   and we we yell about business for a [TS]

01:25:37   while and you you talk into your shoe [TS]

01:25:40   but where else are those conversations [TS]

01:25:43   happening hmm I don't know I mean I can [TS]

01:25:48   only kind of argue this by analogy and I [TS]

01:25:50   guess we're like I feel like um cuz I [TS]

01:25:53   don't know anything about any of this [TS]

01:25:54   stuff but I do at least have a wreckin [TS]

01:25:56   like everybody I've got a wreckin you [TS]

01:25:58   know it just seems like there there are [TS]

01:26:00   there are situations where well first of [TS]

01:26:04   all let's take it as read that we're [TS]

01:26:05   looking when you're when you're talking [TS]

01:26:07   about any rapidly evolving an important [TS]

01:26:10   topic in public discourse it is very [TS]

01:26:12   useful to have a lot of Vestas an [TS]

01:26:14   England a lot of boffins you want a lot [TS]

01:26:16   of real smart people who understand the [TS]

01:26:18   history of the problem how we've tried [TS]

01:26:22   to address it in the past how much of [TS]

01:26:25   the way you've just in the past is [TS]

01:26:26   useful in the future [TS]

01:26:27   the kind of stuff that you would expect [TS]

01:26:29   I mean if you're gonna if you're gonna [TS]

01:26:30   have a stuff you're gonna have something [TS]

01:26:32   about about medicine across the United [TS]

01:26:36   States it's probably good to invite some [TS]

01:26:37   doctors like um that would never argue [TS]

01:26:39   against that in a million years but like [TS]

01:26:41   there is that dumb liberal arts part of [TS]

01:26:44   me that thinks that well you know it [TS]

01:26:45   would be nice to have some people who [TS]

01:26:46   are doctors slash something's as well [TS]

01:26:49   amoebans people who are not doctors but [TS]

01:26:52   others kind of slash people and because [TS]

01:26:54   you know i think i do feel like a group [TS]

01:26:58   think too strong a word but like i do [TS]

01:27:00   feel like there's this thing of like [TS]

01:27:01   well we're all smart people in this room [TS]

01:27:02   will understand this problem so let's [TS]

01:27:04   get to solving it when like some of the [TS]

01:27:06   most useful stuff that you can have for [TS]

01:27:08   input in an in kind of a group project [TS]

01:27:09   is people who have differing views on [TS]

01:27:11   how we frame the problem right how we [TS]

01:27:14   ask the right questions and i I think [TS]

01:27:18   that I think that there is a fetishism [TS]

01:27:20   for getting the right answer that [TS]

01:27:22   sometimes can skate right past whether [TS]

01:27:26   we ever ask the correct question about [TS]

01:27:28   this absolutely and that that's where I [TS]

01:27:30   think there's a role for people who are [TS]

01:27:31   lay people or nearly lay people is to be [TS]

01:27:34   able to like be the dummy in the room [TS]

01:27:36   maybe in some cases but like I look no [TS]

01:27:39   further than what we've been describing [TS]

01:27:41   for a lot of this episode which is oh [TS]

01:27:43   should I not have done that well why was [TS]

01:27:46   there no one there to say look you know [TS]

01:27:48   I may not be much smarter than the [TS]

01:27:51   average bear that but if you would ask [TS]

01:27:52   me about this and you described it [TS]

01:27:54   accurately what the scope of this change [TS]

01:27:57   to your system would do just as a [TS]

01:27:59   garden-variety user a dummy like me [TS]

01:28:03   could have told you that's a stupid [TS]

01:28:04   shitty idea that's gonna be costly to [TS]

01:28:07   your reputation it's gonna potentially [TS]

01:28:10   expose you to risks that were utterly [TS]

01:28:11   unnecessary for what you're trying to do [TS]

01:28:13   and here I'm talking about stuff like [TS]

01:28:14   these apps that do stuff like pull down [TS]

01:28:15   all your contacts for no great reason [TS]

01:28:17   like there's all kinds of risks to that [TS]

01:28:19   that somebody like me could have gone [TS]

01:28:20   did you did you kind of like just did [TS]

01:28:23   you kind of just you know sniff test [TS]

01:28:28   that with what everybody normal cuz [TS]

01:28:30   anybody normal would have gone oh that [TS]

01:28:32   that does not make me feel good help me [TS]

01:28:34   understand why that's the thing you need [TS]

01:28:35   to do without telling me about it you [TS]

01:28:38   know so I don't know I don't know if [TS]

01:28:40   that goes from medicine I don't know if [TS]

01:28:41   that [TS]

01:28:41   4cs all the time but like you know [TS]

01:28:43   having somebody in there to ask a [TS]

01:28:46   perhaps illogical question not not just [TS]

01:28:50   for the purpose of being the smart guy [TS]

01:28:51   with the pipe who's disruptive but to be [TS]

01:28:53   able to to bring an outside voice and an [TS]

01:28:56   outside opinion to making sure that you [TS]

01:28:59   have provided a good answer to a [TS]

01:29:01   question that needed to be asked I think [TS]

01:29:03   it goes for I think it goes for [TS]

01:29:05   everything and the thing is that if you [TS]

01:29:08   run a North Face store and a guy with a [TS]

01:29:11   really long beard full of sticks and [TS]

01:29:13   twigs comes in and rants yeah for for 40 [TS]

01:29:19   minutes about your product you don't [TS]

01:29:24   forget it and you probably send a memo [TS]

01:29:27   to somebody but if enough people do it [TS]

01:29:31   you redesign your product and that's how [TS]

01:29:35   a business interacts with its customers [TS]

01:29:38   but online Facebook has too many [TS]

01:29:42   customers they get a million angry [TS]

01:29:46   emails a day from people saying this was [TS]

01:29:49   a shitty idea and the way you do that is [TS]

01:29:51   by managing the responses in a way to [TS]

01:29:54   seem polite and they seem like you're [TS]

01:29:56   like you're listening when actually [TS]

01:29:58   somebody it's closer in some ways to I [TS]

01:29:59   mean I've mentioned this in other places [TS]

01:30:01   before but this the gig economy [TS]

01:30:04   ride-sharing service that I use has [TS]

01:30:06   never has not only never gotten the [TS]

01:30:09   location of my office correct but [TS]

01:30:11   consistently gets it wrong in exactly [TS]

01:30:13   the same way mm-hmm and I haven't even [TS]

01:30:15   tried to address it because I got a [TS]

01:30:16   feeling I know what's gonna happen [TS]

01:30:17   what's gonna happen is what I'm trying [TS]

01:30:18   to say is I want to essentially file a [TS]

01:30:20   civilian bug to say there's something [TS]

01:30:22   with your system that gets the location [TS]

01:30:25   of my office wrong by a right turn and [TS]

01:30:28   over half a block every time it's [TS]

01:30:30   something repeatable it's a repeatable [TS]

01:30:32   bug but like if I do that it's just [TS]

01:30:34   gonna sound like I'm bitching and I'm [TS]

01:30:35   not bitching I'm trying to say like you [TS]

01:30:37   know this is this is I don't know if [TS]

01:30:38   this is indicative of anything bigger [TS]

01:30:40   but like maybe exploring that dumb [TS]

01:30:42   experience I've had four times now could [TS]

01:30:44   tell you something about your system but [TS]

01:30:46   now I'm already editing myself on that [TS]

01:30:48   because I don't want to be just some [TS]

01:30:49   dingaling when they say thank you you [TS]

01:30:50   know thank you very much for your input [TS]

01:30:51   we're always improving the service [TS]

01:30:53   here's your weekly update [TS]

01:30:54   exactly you're you are literally saying [TS]

01:30:56   let me help you make your product better [TS]

01:30:58   and there is no way to do it I mean I I [TS]

01:31:01   told you I think that I tried to call [TS]

01:31:03   snapchat on the phone about eight eight [TS]

01:31:08   months ago tell me more I want to hear [TS]

01:31:11   this I said listen I I just you know I'm [TS]

01:31:14   saying this to myself I'm saying it to [TS]

01:31:15   the air I have a simple question I just [TS]

01:31:17   need to talk to a certain person I've [TS]

01:31:19   looked online there doesn't appear to be [TS]

01:31:22   a way to reach that person and I just [TS]

01:31:24   need to ask an operator to put me [TS]

01:31:27   through to the person I need to talk to [TS]

01:31:28   you so question click let's have a [TS]

01:31:30   simple question for them yeah and I [TS]

01:31:32   called the phone number and that it was [TS]

01:31:35   snapchat phone number and it said hi [TS]

01:31:37   thanks for calling snapchat if you'd [TS]

01:31:39   like to talk to us just tweet us at [TS]

01:31:41   snapchat beep click and I was like the [TS]

01:31:49   kind of information that maybe you [TS]

01:31:52   wouldn't want to say publicly right what [TS]

01:31:53   if you've discovered a vulnerability [TS]

01:31:55   this happened my friends who work on a [TS]

01:31:57   password management app we're trying to [TS]

01:31:59   send get encryption in place to send a [TS]

01:32:02   critical zero-day exploit bug report to [TS]

01:32:06   a company and they're like hey thanks [TS]

01:32:07   for interest go sign up for our bug [TS]

01:32:09   bounty over here and like no you don't [TS]

01:32:10   understand the fucking red wire now like [TS]

01:32:14   yeah we need to go get in like a skiff [TS]

01:32:16   and talk about this thing that has been [TS]

01:32:18   a problem for weeks or months and you [TS]

01:32:20   didn't know about it like oh that's cool [TS]

01:32:21   thanks glad you're man here's a pin you [TS]

01:32:23   know right tweet us on Twitter and [TS]

01:32:30   that'll be a good thing for you well and [TS]

01:32:33   so and my thing wasn't like clipped the [TS]

01:32:35   red wire now but it was time sensitive [TS]

01:32:36   and it was real and it was solvable by a [TS]

01:32:41   person somewhere well I spent a couple [TS]

01:32:46   of weeks and not just trying everything [TS]

01:32:50   and I tried I mean I did all these like [TS]

01:32:52   go online and backward and look up phone [TS]

01:32:56   numbers and it was it was well I called [TS]

01:32:59   like it was like get human there's one [TS]

01:33:01   where you can go and find the secret [TS]

01:33:02   number from us places yeah I died I [TS]

01:33:04   tried that I tried called the [TS]

01:33:06   California business great Better [TS]

01:33:10   Business Bureau all these different [TS]

01:33:11   things and everything every phone number [TS]

01:33:14   I got funneled me back to that couch at [TS]

01:33:20   the and I could not and so I I tweeted [TS]

01:33:29   and said hi I'd like to talk to someone [TS]

01:33:34   can you contact me and then they wrote [TS]

01:33:40   back two days later and were like yeah [TS]

01:33:41   follow us and we'll DM and I followed [TS]

01:33:45   them and they said hey and I said hey I [TS]

01:33:49   have a question about this and they were [TS]

01:33:51   like oh and I swear to you they said [TS]

01:33:54   call this number right and the number [TS]

01:33:56   was like just tweet us at like it was a [TS]

01:33:59   it was an ultimate there was no way [TS]

01:34:04   through and it was intentional it was I [TS]

01:34:08   mean like that is a word I reserved for [TS]

01:34:10   special occasions it's somewhat Kafka [TS]

01:34:12   esque where it's difficult to understand [TS]

01:34:15   why this is happening and there's some [TS]

01:34:17   level of recursion and repetition where [TS]

01:34:19   like you're in the castle [TS]

01:34:20   what's crazy about science fiction is [TS]

01:34:23   that it that it gets so many things [TS]

01:34:25   right but it often gets things really [TS]

01:34:27   wrong and that was what was so amazing [TS]

01:34:29   about Star Wars or Blade Runner where [TS]

01:34:31   they were the first science fiction [TS]

01:34:33   films that made things look dirty right [TS]

01:34:35   and we were like wow that looks so real [TS]

01:34:37   what Kafka missed he was so right but [TS]

01:34:43   what he missed was that there would be a [TS]

01:34:44   giant yellow smiley face on everything [TS]

01:34:46   great but it wasn't but but it's also [TS]

01:34:49   not clean right you want to think like [TS]

01:34:51   all those science fiction movies were [TS]

01:34:53   there giant giant smiley places on [TS]

01:34:55   everything it's at least clean yeah but [TS]

01:34:57   this is both dirty and smiley face II [TS]

01:35:00   and every interaction I had with [TS]

01:35:03   snapchat was just like hi oh my god [TS]

01:35:06   thank you hey tweet us and it's like [TS]

01:35:12   look I'm not 14 I don't have a question [TS]

01:35:15   about like my boyfriend took a booby [TS]

01:35:17   picture of me and if I did I wouldn't [TS]

01:35:19   want [TS]

01:35:20   tweet you right but I have like a [TS]

01:35:22   grown-up question I want to speak to one [TS]

01:35:24   grown-up anyway eventually and I don't [TS]

01:35:26   even remember how I did it [TS]

01:35:28   I got a phone call from a live person [TS]

01:35:32   there Wow and I don't remember what I [TS]

01:35:36   think it was through their Twitter [TS]

01:35:37   account I said look I want somebody to [TS]

01:35:39   talk to me about I want an adult and and [TS]

01:35:45   it came out of the blue I was not [TS]

01:35:47   expecting it I got a phone call and it [TS]

01:35:49   was a kid who was who said hey hi this [TS]

01:35:53   is Jeremy at snapchat here's my question [TS]

01:36:02   he was like yeah well um hang on let me [TS]

01:36:09   let me call you back [TS]

01:36:11   and then he called me back two minutes [TS]

01:36:14   later and said sure here's the here it [TS]

01:36:18   is here's the number should be arriving [TS]

01:36:20   in the mail it's coming to you now [TS]

01:36:23   anything else and I was like wow yeah [TS]

01:36:26   just one other thing I took me a month [TS]

01:36:29   to get to the point where I could have [TS]

01:36:32   this two-minute conversation where you [TS]

01:36:33   totally solved my problem Wow why did it [TS]

01:36:37   take a month because it's a because to [TS]

01:36:40   me it feels like this conversation took [TS]

01:36:42   a month but it didn't it just took two [TS]

01:36:43   minutes right and I knew it was I knew [TS]

01:36:46   it was a two-minute conversation and I'm [TS]

01:36:47   grateful for your help [TS]

01:36:49   you've done more than I imagined can you [TS]

01:36:52   fucking make that a little bit easier [TS]

01:36:54   for people he's like pop well I'm just [TS]

01:36:57   on the solution team yeah I know you are [TS]

01:37:07   how a good fish taco to dance port [TS]

01:37:11   Jeremy or Jeremy [TS]

01:37:14   [Music] [TS]

01:37:17   Hey [TS]

01:37:19   [Music] [TS]

01:37:19   [Music] [TS]

00:00:01   [Music] [TS]

00:00:04   hi John hi Merlin how's it going good [TS]

00:00:09   how are you young very well that's good [TS]

00:00:11   so early I do I just got a phone call [TS]

00:00:15   from local public radio station and they [TS]

00:00:19   wanted to know if I would come on a [TS]

00:00:21   panel today to talk about whether or not [TS]

00:00:24   amazon.com new bubbles that they built [TS]

00:00:27   in Seattle are gonna be an icon like the [TS]

00:00:32   Space Needle you might need to bring me [TS]

00:00:35   up to speed here I am not totally up to [TS]

00:00:37   date on the what are you the Emerald [TS]

00:00:40   City what do you call Jetson now well we [TS]

00:00:42   were the Jet City that was a very cool [TS]

00:00:44   name yeah and and I think an organic [TS]

00:00:48   name Jet City Jet City once we got a [TS]

00:00:50   fight yeah we made the Jets yeah yep yep [TS]

00:00:53   yep and then once you're always Emerald [TS]

00:00:55   City is that is that that is that organ [TS]

00:00:57   no Emerald City is something it's a [TS]

00:01:01   nickname that came about as the result [TS]

00:01:04   of a like one of those let's take [TS]

00:01:08   suggestions from the audience [TS]

00:01:09   title now things where they're like hey [TS]

00:01:12   what should we call our city and people [TS]

00:01:14   I think we're like we're out we already [TS]

00:01:16   have a name Jet City and they were oh [TS]

00:01:19   let's call it Emerald City and it's like [TS]

00:01:23   who said that you know hey you in the [TS]

00:01:26   back stand up whoo why did you say that [TS]

00:01:27   they're like I don't work for a [TS]

00:01:29   publicity firm don't mind me at the name [TS]

00:01:37   of the odds place yeah oh that's not [TS]

00:01:39   good yeah giant Seattle biospheres yeah [TS]

00:01:48   Oh God and are people gonna live in them [TS]

00:01:52   or they just oh they just green houses [TS]

00:01:55   don't I say just green houses I new to [TS]

00:01:57   this so so I yeah a few years ago I was [TS]

00:02:01   I was downtown I had a I have a friend [TS]

00:02:04   that works at an architecture firm and [TS]

00:02:06   he was he invited he invited us to come [TS]

00:02:11   by and see the see what's going on and [TS]

00:02:13   they're a big big company that are [TS]

00:02:14   making big big things [TS]

00:02:16   and one of the things that have they had [TS]

00:02:19   on their drawing board were these giant [TS]

00:02:20   very organic looking spheres and I was [TS]

00:02:24   intrigued because they were pretty [TS]

00:02:27   cool-looking on the on the design table [TS]

00:02:29   and he said yeah Amazon wants us to [TS]

00:02:31   build these but like in the center of [TS]

00:02:33   downtown and I thought that'll never [TS]

00:02:37   happen first of all but wouldn't that be [TS]

00:02:41   cool if you built like a big thing like [TS]

00:02:43   that like a public space business yeah [TS]

00:02:45   look like I mean looks like if you've [TS]

00:02:47   seen the Polish or movie biosphere [TS]

00:02:49   they're big round and they they have a [TS]

00:02:53   kind of a who's the guy with the who's [TS]

00:02:56   the guy with the geodesic domes the guy [TS]

00:02:59   show about him you know that one guy [TS]

00:03:01   with the name it's HR guy culture it's [TS]

00:03:05   like the HR HR Pufnstuf HR snuffleupagus [TS]

00:03:10   these are the appear to be three [TS]

00:03:14   tripartite of three big interconnected [TS]

00:03:17   bubbles with what looks like green trees [TS]

00:03:19   inside and they look pretty big right [TS]

00:03:23   they're super big and they are [TS]

00:03:30   Buckminster Fuller oh that's it Bucky [TS]

00:03:33   Bucky balls yeah they're there and [TS]

00:03:38   they're built unlike bucky balls which [TS]

00:03:40   are built with regular sort of [TS]

00:03:41   triangular components these are made [TS]

00:03:44   with very organic like the type of the [TS]

00:03:48   type of shapes that you'd see inside of [TS]

00:03:50   an actual but like a soap bubble or [TS]

00:03:51   something swirling they kind of feel [TS]

00:03:55   like to serve irregular patterns it [TS]

00:03:57   isn't like I'm just seeing a bunch of [TS]

00:03:59   triangles right and I hate to keep [TS]

00:04:01   referencing the movie avatar but it [TS]

00:04:03   feels like something the movie Avatar [TS]

00:04:06   yes yes yeah so anyway I was and then [TS]

00:04:10   they started building him and I was like [TS]

00:04:11   I never expected that they would [TS]

00:04:13   actually go through with this very [TS]

00:04:14   ambitious idea to build these orbs in [TS]

00:04:20   the center of town and what a what a [TS]

00:04:22   bold move for a company that I think of [TS]

00:04:25   as being pretty culturally conservative [TS]

00:04:26   within themselves [TS]

00:04:28   you know Amazon is not [TS]

00:04:29   very has not typically been like we love [TS]

00:04:32   everybody they're much more like their [TS]

00:04:35   typical tech company that hides behind [TS]

00:04:38   security keys and everything you know [TS]

00:04:42   it's like harder to get into to [TS]

00:04:45   amazon.com or to Microsoft in downtown [TS]

00:04:48   Seattle it's harder to get in than it is [TS]

00:04:50   to get into the White House you know the [TS]

00:04:52   there's so many different levels of [TS]

00:04:54   security and it's like security I mean [TS]

00:04:57   what do you guys got in there like like [TS]

00:04:59   gold bars what are you so scared of but [TS]

00:05:03   but they they started building when they [TS]

00:05:06   built them for a long time and they [TS]

00:05:07   screwed up traffic in both directions [TS]

00:05:08   downtown for ever and they built two big [TS]

00:05:13   office towers on either side which are [TS]

00:05:15   also interesting architectural II [TS]

00:05:18   interesting but then as they got closer [TS]

00:05:21   to opening these bubbles they were like [TS]

00:05:24   oh we were never gonna let any one go in [TS]

00:05:30   them [TS]

00:05:30   oh no Snorks allowed right oh no these [TS]

00:05:34   are just for us oh boy it seems like [TS]

00:05:37   that's kind of thing you wanna mention [TS]

00:05:38   yeah well but even I mean they didn't [TS]

00:05:43   mention it because they never considered [TS]

00:05:45   that it would be something to the public [TS]

00:05:50   and so here you have this this like [TS]

00:05:55   basically yeah Space Station Earth I'm [TS]

00:05:58   seeing like a anytime you look at the [TS]

00:06:01   right thing here it looks like a like a [TS]

00:06:02   side what do you call that it that's so [TS]

00:06:04   early it looks like a slice the edge off [TS]

00:06:08   you show from the side one like yeah [TS]

00:06:10   yeah yeah I mean like we need to show [TS]

00:06:12   the fantastic for building one or two [TS]

00:06:14   three four five stories yeah okay [TS]

00:06:18   anything you got about ten feet in the [TS]

00:06:20   story plus you got a little bit of [TS]

00:06:21   overhead so these things are probably [TS]

00:06:22   like at least like what 80 100 feet tall [TS]

00:06:25   they're big they're big and they take up [TS]

00:06:27   the space between of a block well and [TS]

00:06:31   they've already on either side they have [TS]

00:06:33   big office towers so the whole thing is [TS]

00:06:36   a is you know it's a whole city block [TS]

00:06:39   for this campus [TS]

00:06:41   and they've done you know they they put [TS]

00:06:43   these buildings in they hired 10,000 [TS]

00:06:45   people and on the ground floor of their [TS]

00:06:49   buildings they have a fat belly sandwich [TS]

00:06:51   shop and a Thai restaurant and a cool [TS]

00:06:54   burger place that puts lavender on their [TS]

00:06:57   burgers and you know all this stuff and [TS]

00:06:59   if you have a key card I'm sure you can [TS]

00:07:01   go in and just charge your food but the [TS]

00:07:06   campus did not it you know it's not [TS]

00:07:08   built there are so many different eras [TS]

00:07:11   of like downtown architecture fashion [TS]

00:07:15   and we've both lived in cities San [TS]

00:07:18   Francisco is a real example of this [TS]

00:07:22   where a building gets built and it has a [TS]

00:07:23   very kind of open unfriendly sun-baked [TS]

00:07:28   Plaza with some cements in there that [TS]

00:07:34   you could suppose I guess maybe sit on a [TS]

00:07:37   shake I mean no it's just it doesn't [TS]

00:07:40   want to go away it's really tough and [TS]

00:07:43   and that was the I that was an idea that [TS]

00:07:45   was supposed to be that was supposed to [TS]

00:07:47   engage people you know these big plazas [TS]

00:07:49   and it just they didn't think through [TS]

00:07:51   how actual people want to be this campus [TS]

00:07:58   really I mean those bubbles really draw [TS]

00:08:01   you you you you come to them and you [TS]

00:08:03   look at them and you're like I want to [TS]

00:08:05   what is the first thought you have I [TS]

00:08:07   want to go in mm-hmm because there's [TS]

00:08:09   there's trees in there it looks like it [TS]

00:08:13   Scott probably it's playing like tubular [TS]

00:08:16   bells or music for airports like all [TS]

00:08:20   right it's it's like the future I want [TS]

00:08:23   to go in and then you get the kinda like [TS]

00:08:26   giant Christmas ornaments like they're [TS]

00:08:28   very I mean have to say they're I don't [TS]

00:08:30   mean this is too much of a compliment [TS]

00:08:32   but they're very attractive as you say [TS]

00:08:33   like if you saw is Hugo what is that and [TS]

00:08:35   how do I get inside yeah how do I get [TS]

00:08:37   inside and you know the other public [TS]

00:08:40   buildings that have a similar effect in [TS]

00:08:42   Seattle are the downtown library which [TS]

00:08:45   was just look for that right now [TS]

00:08:47   oh it's modern [TS]

00:08:50   but it's like somebody got tired of [TS]

00:08:52   folding a box it's really i keep since [TS]

00:08:56   the day it was opened i described it as [TS]

00:08:58   a spaceport on a minor planet it's just [TS]

00:09:03   like oh that's it huh I mean that there [TS]

00:09:05   are buses that used to be pretty popular [TS]

00:09:07   yeah it was like a mining planet like [TS]

00:09:10   six millenia ago and that's the space [TS]

00:09:12   board and it's a typical of contemporary [TS]

00:09:14   architecture like at some point not that [TS]

00:09:17   long after it opened the escalator [TS]

00:09:19   stopped working then pretty soon there's [TS]

00:09:21   somebody there with some scaffolding and [TS]

00:09:23   a sign that says no access trying to fix [TS]

00:09:25   it but they're not working that hard and [TS]

00:09:28   then the other example is the EMP which [TS]

00:09:31   was you know which was a again a folly [TS]

00:09:35   of a rich person and and and when you [TS]

00:09:42   saw it on the drawing board you were [TS]

00:09:43   like wow we're gonna get a Frank Giri [TS]

00:09:45   right in the middle of town and Frank [TS]

00:09:48   Gehry designed it but because Paul Allen [TS]

00:09:50   owned it Paul Allen got involved and was [TS]

00:09:53   like I know that you built this that you [TS]

00:09:55   designed this to be all silver but what [TS]

00:09:57   if it was red white and blue and green [TS]

00:10:02   and yellow and Frank Gehry was like well [TS]

00:10:06   no I don't I don't want that that's not [TS]

00:10:09   what I am building and Paul Allen was [TS]

00:10:11   like yeah but don't you think that [TS]

00:10:13   colors would make people like it more [TS]

00:10:16   kind of psychedelic huh [TS]

00:10:18   and Frank Gehry was like no I don't [TS]

00:10:20   think that and then Paul Allen said and [TS]

00:10:23   we're gonna need some meeting rooms in [TS]

00:10:24   there like square boxes with chairs big [TS]

00:10:28   big long chair rooms and Frankie was [TS]

00:10:32   like that's not what what I was building [TS]

00:10:34   and then he said and then you know on [TS]

00:10:36   the outside there should be some some [TS]

00:10:38   things where we can put posters that [TS]

00:10:40   like advertise upcoming shows and so if [TS]

00:10:43   you go to Frank Gehry's website I guess [TS]

00:10:47   he's got a website but if you look at [TS]

00:10:49   stop hearing Hervey let's say he does [TS]

00:10:52   not acknowledge the EMP he washed his [TS]

00:10:54   hands he's like I did well and more on [TS]

00:10:58   it he doesn't make any money from the [TS]

00:10:59   probably oh yeah he's like take my name [TS]

00:11:01   off of the credit mm-hmm [TS]

00:11:03   no I'm sure he took the money yeah but [TS]

00:11:06   but but what Paul Ellen did was he he he [TS]

00:11:09   got this here he got this thing built [TS]

00:11:12   but it was but he needed it to be [TS]

00:11:13   something that wasn't that you know but [TS]

00:11:15   he was thinking in terms of the big like [TS]

00:11:21   key card buildings in the suburbs that [TS]

00:11:23   he came up in it sounds like a fairly [TS]

00:11:28   classic design problem or an [TS]

00:11:30   anti-pattern in design which is you know [TS]

00:11:33   I it's probably easy to overstate this [TS]

00:11:35   but one problem for people who are [TS]

00:11:37   outside of design and don't approach it [TS]

00:11:38   from a certain point of view is to think [TS]

00:11:40   that it's really it's it's a coat of [TS]

00:11:42   paint it's wrapping it's maybe you know [TS]

00:11:45   branding but you haven't really thought [TS]

00:11:47   about how the space is going to be used [TS]

00:11:49   and so when you that is revealed when [TS]

00:11:51   somebody says stuff like yeah yeah so [TS]

00:11:53   basically what we want to we want a [TS]

00:11:55   fancy building the cool people will like [TS]

00:11:57   but we want the inside to be pretty [TS]

00:11:58   pedestrian and we want to put posters [TS]

00:12:00   outside mm-hmm and and we should you [TS]

00:12:02   know and it when you look in from [TS]

00:12:04   outside like so that's what they did [TS]

00:12:06   with these amazon bubbles if you look in [TS]

00:12:08   from outside you see oh inside these [TS]

00:12:12   incredibly organic structures there are [TS]

00:12:16   wisely them all white walls right [TS]

00:12:19   squared off with no windows and doors [TS]

00:12:22   and inside I'm sure there are like AV [TS]

00:12:26   equipment and PowerPoint stuff and ports [TS]

00:12:29   and I'm sure there's a folding table out [TS]

00:12:32   front where you get your lanyard and it [TS]

00:12:35   they just built a convention center that [TS]

00:12:38   no one is allowed in and and so that you [TS]

00:12:44   know the idea that you would build [TS]

00:12:46   something like that and then not let [TS]

00:12:48   people come is is an example of the kind [TS]

00:12:51   of like the kind of tech tone-deafness [TS]

00:12:56   that goes with this this new idea in in [TS]

00:13:01   big companies that you're going to [TS]

00:13:02   locate your campus in the center of [TS]

00:13:04   downtown and that's gonna be appealing [TS]

00:13:08   to employees because they're they're not [TS]

00:13:10   going to be out at some suburban campus [TS]

00:13:11   they're gonna be right in the heart of [TS]

00:13:12   the action and Seattle is a cool city [TS]

00:13:15   mountain [TS]

00:13:16   there and get your coffee and people and [TS]

00:13:19   you know I'm sure in their in their [TS]

00:13:21   brochures when they're trying to attract [TS]

00:13:24   the prospective employees there's like a [TS]

00:13:27   picture of a girl with pink hair and [TS]

00:13:29   there's somebody throwing the fish at [TS]

00:13:32   the market and they're like come to [TS]

00:13:34   Seattle don't you know don't move out to [TS]

00:13:36   Mountain View California right but what [TS]

00:13:40   the city what the company isn't doing is [TS]

00:13:43   repaying the city for all that cool [TS]

00:13:47   culture that they're using to attract [TS]

00:13:49   employees by adding anything back [TS]

00:13:52   they're just like yeah come to Seattle [TS]

00:13:54   and we'll just we'll just really I mean [TS]

00:13:56   I stating facts are these really [TS]

00:13:59   actually this is actually true they [TS]

00:14:00   actually are not gonna have like a lot [TS]

00:14:02   of this is a place that somebody's it [TS]

00:14:04   was kind of pitched as a public project [TS]

00:14:06   but it's actually not going to be such a [TS]

00:14:08   public project is that true I I do not [TS]

00:14:11   believe it was ever pitched as a public [TS]

00:14:13   project I think it's a tale in here are [TS]

00:14:15   they've got that means that retail only [TS]

00:14:16   frame is long people but boy I don't [TS]

00:14:18   know about that I my sense of it is they [TS]

00:14:21   stop you at the door and if you want to [TS]

00:14:25   arrange a tour a small number of people [TS]

00:14:30   per year I guess like civic leaders I'm [TS]

00:14:34   sure I'll get a tour right I'm sure that [TS]

00:14:36   I'm at some point someone will say hey [TS]

00:14:38   we're going to the get an Amazon thing [TS]

00:14:41   you want to come and it's gonna be [TS]

00:14:42   because it's specific leader but like [TS]

00:14:48   your regular person who came here from [TS]

00:14:50   st. Louis to spend a week in Seattle [TS]

00:14:53   because they've always wanted to [TS]

00:14:55   whoo-hoo were like yeah we should go [TS]

00:14:57   look at the Amazon orbs and they walk [TS]

00:14:59   down there and you look at them and then [TS]

00:15:03   you walk over to the door and you're [TS]

00:15:04   like can we get in and no and then you [TS]

00:15:08   pull your camera out and then somebody [TS]

00:15:10   with a earpiece is like no pictures I [TS]

00:15:12   mean you know that I'm exaggerating that [TS]

00:15:14   but but that's about it [TS]

00:15:16   right that's a family look so hard a [TS]

00:15:18   part of it is deliberately open belting [TS]

00:15:20   a good sign this is a headline from a [TS]

00:15:22   week ago today is that there will be a [TS]

00:15:24   visitor center and mics [TS]

00:15:27   it's places that have a visitor center [TS]

00:15:29   are not open to everybody right you can [TS]

00:15:33   get tours you can get like a full [TS]

00:15:35   90-minute Amazon HQ tour you go to oh [TS]

00:15:39   their visitor centers called the [TS]

00:15:40   understory [TS]

00:15:41   no Discovery exhibit yeah okay it's [TS]

00:15:46   gonna have 300 endangered plant species [TS]

00:15:49   in it but it says you know there's a [TS]

00:15:52   there's an article in geek wire in a [TS]

00:15:54   couple of years Amazon employees Amazon [TS]

00:15:57   employees will be able to walk on a [TS]

00:15:58   suspension bridge over a forest land and [TS]

00:16:01   settle into a nest perched within a [TS]

00:16:03   mature tree for a brainstorming session [TS]

00:16:06   and it's just like like three-quarters [TS]

00:16:09   of that sentence is really appealing but [TS]

00:16:11   what it really is saying is Amazon [TS]

00:16:13   employees are gonna have brainstorming [TS]

00:16:15   sessions in this place and Amazon [TS]

00:16:18   employees you know like and and the [TS]

00:16:21   brainstorming session is probably gonna [TS]

00:16:23   happen you know within for like inside [TS]

00:16:26   an organic skiffs no I don't think so [TS]

00:16:29   I think they're their meeting rooms [TS]

00:16:31   inside oh geez maybe you can go sit in a [TS]

00:16:35   hammock but you know my experience of oh [TS]

00:16:37   I went and toured the medium offices a [TS]

00:16:40   couple of times huh and they had they [TS]

00:16:43   had a bunch of sleeping cubbies have you [TS]

00:16:47   been there [TS]

00:16:48   no there were like little pods like [TS]

00:16:51   built into the wall and and they had [TS]

00:16:53   curtains on them and you could pull the [TS]

00:16:54   curtains back inside there was like not [TS]

00:16:56   just a mattress it was like a Japanese [TS]

00:16:58   hotel room how often do they clean him I [TS]

00:17:00   well so I didn't ask that my first [TS]

00:17:03   question was how often do people go in [TS]

00:17:06   and you can take naps in here what is [TS]

00:17:09   what is the highest level inside the [TS]

00:17:11   organization of someone who uses this at [TS]

00:17:12   least weekly and the answer was no one [TS]

00:17:15   has ever used these to take a nap [TS]

00:17:16   because if you went in and took a nap [TS]

00:17:19   yeah you would be looked at like someone [TS]

00:17:24   who was trying to take a nap during the [TS]

00:17:25   work day you could probably you could [TS]

00:17:27   probably smoke weed in the office and [TS]

00:17:28   get less kickback then if you went and [TS]

00:17:31   slept took a nap during work but there [TS]

00:17:33   are the facilities there for six people [TS]

00:17:35   to be sleeping simultaneously [TS]

00:17:37   and I said do people ever like go in [TS]

00:17:40   here and fucking the eat at night uh-huh [TS]

00:17:43   it's like no no no one ever goes in [TS]

00:17:45   there why would you go in there it's [TS]

00:17:46   creepy it's like you know I don't know [TS]

00:17:47   how and probably they're cleaned every [TS]

00:17:49   day probably they have a dedicated [TS]

00:17:52   cleaning person to clean them but as far [TS]

00:17:54   as I could tell pulling the employees of [TS]

00:17:56   medium no one had ever gone in those [TS]

00:17:58   pots and I was like if I worked at [TS]

00:18:00   medium I would be in that pot ever I [TS]

00:18:02   would work from there [TS]

00:18:03   oh absolutely and the bring an iPad and [TS]

00:18:06   recline are they yeah I'd be in there [TS]

00:18:07   the reply was well you wouldn't work a [TS]

00:18:09   medium for that for long T and so tell [TS]

00:18:13   me yeah right I mean you could go down [TS]

00:18:14   to Amazon orbs and sit around and have [TS]

00:18:18   brainstorming sessions but to really [TS]

00:18:20   like sit in sit in a hammock and watch [TS]

00:18:22   the endangered butterflies fly around [TS]

00:18:24   you have to be a vice president or [TS]

00:18:25   higher anyway it's so it's so it's like [TS]

00:18:28   this it's an incredible missed [TS]

00:18:30   opportunity that is that from from [TS]

00:18:36   inside their their hive mind I'm sure [TS]

00:18:41   they're because because you can already [TS]

00:18:44   feel it this was this radio show was [TS]

00:18:45   about like Amazon wants this to be a [TS]

00:18:48   tourist destination they thought of they [TS]

00:18:50   were thinking that when they built it [TS]

00:18:52   like we want people to come see this we [TS]

00:18:54   want people to wear t-shirts and to be [TS]

00:18:57   like oh Seattle that you mean the Orab [TS]

00:18:59   City you know they had that in mind but [TS]

00:19:04   but they couldn't they didn't make the [TS]

00:19:08   leap to think if we're gonna build this [TS]

00:19:11   it's gonna be an incredibly attractive [TS]

00:19:13   nuisance to everyone like okay so it's [TS]

00:19:17   got these endangered species you can't [TS]

00:19:19   just open it up to everybody to just [TS]

00:19:21   come through like a like a mall but you [TS]

00:19:23   gotta have a way to pay $15 at least to [TS]

00:19:26   go in and and and sit around I mean you [TS]

00:19:30   know the Space Needle is not free right [TS]

00:19:32   but there you pay money and you go in it [TS]

00:19:34   something you know some way for the city [TS]

00:19:39   to access it and whatever the retail is [TS]

00:19:41   I'm sure that it's a I'm sure that it's [TS]

00:19:44   like fifty square feet on an understory [TS]

00:19:47   that's selling you t-shirts that have [TS]

00:19:48   the orbs on [TS]

00:19:49   you know there's no like that's not [TS]

00:19:52   there's not gonna be a Fendi store in it [TS]

00:19:54   well I thank God for that [TS]

00:19:56   yeah I'm looking at images here of the [TS]

00:19:59   blight of my own city which is this [TS]

00:20:01   Salesforce tower you seen that you mean [TS]

00:20:05   the largest tower in San Francisco is [TS]

00:20:07   visible from every Japan town that's [TS]

00:20:10   what they say oh shit it's the [TS]

00:20:14   salesforce.com Tower it's like if if [TS]

00:20:17   Darth Vader made a water rocket I was [TS]

00:20:20   like not like this style of architecture [TS]

00:20:21   personally it looks good in London but I [TS]

00:20:24   don't know if it's so much here Utama [TS]

00:20:26   orbs well no i'm talking here about the [TS]

00:20:29   tower but i guess my question is this is [TS]

00:20:31   all brand new to me i've known about [TS]

00:20:32   this for now for 20 minutes and 30 [TS]

00:20:33   seconds are you opposed to the bubbles [TS]

00:20:37   differently than you would be for [TS]

00:20:39   another kind of building that was mostly [TS]

00:20:42   not meant to be public like you don't [TS]

00:20:45   have this do you have the same feeling [TS]

00:20:46   about the towers that are astride the [TS]

00:20:49   bubbles as you do about the bubbles [TS]

00:20:50   themselves do you think he gets a lot of [TS]

00:20:51   different bill of goods here well I do [TS]

00:20:54   think that if if Amazon wants to like [TS]

00:21:07   the the libertarianism that is at the [TS]

00:21:11   heart of the way that that company [TS]

00:21:13   interacts with Seattle suggests that [TS]

00:21:15   they don't owe us anything right they [TS]

00:21:17   built their company from the ground up [TS]

00:21:20   they built it they brought good clean [TS]

00:21:22   jobs to town [TS]

00:21:23   yeah they built it themselves and their [TS]

00:21:24   only obligation to us is that they're [TS]

00:21:28   bringing young people and they're paying [TS]

00:21:29   them a lot of money and those people [TS]

00:21:30   increased our tax base and whether or [TS]

00:21:34   not they created a traffic fuckup and [TS]

00:21:38   whether or not this like the sewers and [TS]

00:21:42   infrastructure in downtown is built were [TS]

00:21:44   built to accommodate 50,000 new people [TS]

00:21:47   who are all flushing their toilets at [TS]

00:21:50   the same time whether or not any of [TS]

00:21:52   those things any of those larger [TS]

00:21:54   questions of how we interact with each [TS]

00:21:58   other like they will do the minimum to [TS]

00:22:02   be in compliance [TS]

00:22:03   but they don't think of them they don't [TS]

00:22:06   think of themselves as integrated [TS]

00:22:10   they're their thing they built it the [TS]

00:22:13   money belongs to them and they bought [TS]

00:22:17   that land and they can do what they want [TS]

00:22:18   with it [TS]

00:22:19   and if Bezos wanted to erect a glass [TS]

00:22:22   penis 80 stories tall he wouldn't be the [TS]

00:22:25   first rich guy to build a glass penis in [TS]

00:22:27   downtown Seattle there literally is a [TS]

00:22:30   building that looks like a penis and [TS]

00:22:31   downtown's it's a green penis which is [TS]

00:22:36   the which is a bad color for a penis [TS]

00:22:38   that's what most farm fresh peas are [TS]

00:22:40   full of green penis I'm not a doctor if [TS]

00:22:46   your penis is green it may be a side [TS]

00:22:49   effect yeah but but so so the [TS]

00:22:56   combination of like like ego and hubris [TS]

00:23:03   that would allow a company to say we're [TS]

00:23:09   doing this in the center of your city we [TS]

00:23:12   have the right to do it because we get [TS]

00:23:15   to do whatever we want because money [TS]

00:23:17   we're not obligated to you in any way [TS]

00:23:21   shape or form to make it I mean we have [TS]

00:23:24   to make it accessible because that's the [TS]

00:23:26   code we have to make it like you have to [TS]

00:23:29   be able to walk through it but we have [TS]

00:23:31   no further obligation to make it to have [TS]

00:23:34   it interact with you at all if you don't [TS]

00:23:36   have a lanyard you know you're barely [TS]

00:23:40   welcome at the fat belly sandwich shop [TS]

00:23:43   which is ostensibly open to the public [TS]

00:23:44   because they don't have a capacity to [TS]

00:23:46   use their cash registers don't don't [TS]

00:23:49   accept money or whatever but at the same [TS]

00:23:53   time they want to be loved [TS]

00:23:55   and that's the thing that that's the [TS]

00:23:58   cognitive disconnect they don't [TS]

00:24:01   understand why people are mad at them [TS]

00:24:03   they feel hurt and put upon when people [TS]

00:24:07   complain well I'm also like this seems [TS]

00:24:10   like there's this kind of cereal like um [TS]

00:24:12   this feeling of being oh we're so you [TS]

00:24:14   know we're so misunderstood yeah yeah [TS]

00:24:17   you guys you guys describe all of this [TS]

00:24:18   evilness to us that is not only not [TS]

00:24:21   factual but it's just just unfair and [TS]

00:24:24   like we take such a beating from the [TS]

00:24:25   public you know especially given all the [TS]

00:24:27   good that we're doing yeah look at all [TS]

00:24:29   this stuff we've done look at what we've [TS]

00:24:31   done for you but you know this time an [TS]

00:24:34   aggrieved ad thing [TS]

00:24:35   it's an aggrieved ad yeah and when you [TS]

00:24:38   think about it like all right well you [TS]

00:24:39   just you know you've got 50,000 people [TS]

00:24:42   now that you brought into town nobody [TS]

00:24:45   can move you didn't think of that [TS]

00:24:47   because that's not your problem because [TS]

00:24:49   as soon as they leave the door of your [TS]

00:24:52   building it's not your problem anymore [TS]

00:24:54   yeah but it is your problem where it's [TS]

00:24:56   our problem and I mean I I'm definitely [TS]

00:24:59   the idea that they sell they sell [TS]

00:25:02   working in Seattle as a big part of [TS]

00:25:05   their compensation package because it's [TS]

00:25:09   the old argument they used to make to us [TS]

00:25:11   and rock and roll like oh you know [TS]

00:25:14   you're so lucky you get to play rock and [TS]

00:25:18   roll and it's like oh man it's my job [TS]

00:25:20   I'd like to also get money but part of [TS]

00:25:23   the money has got to be just but I'll [TS]

00:25:25   say yeah I mean it is and I'm saying [TS]

00:25:27   fairness but like you know Silicon [TS]

00:25:29   Valley San Francisco superscooper costly [TS]

00:25:32   even if you're making pretty good dough [TS]

00:25:35   New York City you know tough to get an [TS]

00:25:37   apartment that's bigger than a closet [TS]

00:25:39   you could have a quality of life in [TS]

00:25:41   Seattle with a similar kind of job with [TS]

00:25:44   a big growing company that's you your [TS]

00:25:47   quality of life is gonna be higher than [TS]

00:25:48   it would be if you're living in some [TS]

00:25:50   kind of a hovel in Mountain View oh [TS]

00:25:52   absolutely I mean the the argument that [TS]

00:25:55   they're making is not wrong my my [TS]

00:25:58   argument is that is taking like you're [TS]

00:26:04   sucking from the city but you're sucking [TS]

00:26:09   thing from the city that nobody owns [TS]

00:26:11   like you can't pay anybody for the cool [TS]

00:26:15   artists that are loafing around you're [TS]

00:26:17   certainly not going to pay them for [TS]

00:26:18   their art but you you're you don't feel [TS]

00:26:22   a responsibility to you're bringing your [TS]

00:26:25   people in who don't have culture right [TS]

00:26:28   there 24 and they have computer science [TS]

00:26:31   degrees and they don't know and they [TS]

00:26:33   live in an apartment with nothing on the [TS]

00:26:35   wall like they like having access to [TS]

00:26:37   like good saw and like that yeah they [TS]

00:26:39   like you good they look good good [TS]

00:26:40   restaurants they like to go to you know [TS]

00:26:42   they're learning to go to shows that's [TS]

00:26:44   wonderful I mean Seattle will [TS]

00:26:46   enculturate the people that work here [TS]

00:26:48   because they will if they if they allow [TS]

00:26:51   themselves [TS]

00:26:52   I'm sure Amazon has programs where it's [TS]

00:26:54   like hey come to a show with us or you [TS]

00:26:57   know like like after work groups of [TS]

00:26:59   people that go do things how you see it [TS]

00:27:01   you see them you see a group of people [TS]

00:27:03   show up at a thing and you're like oh [TS]

00:27:04   look it's a bunch of young Amazon people [TS]

00:27:06   all in a herd with one another like and [TS]

00:27:08   that is the process of the culture how [TS]

00:27:14   the culture of a city works but what [TS]

00:27:16   they don't acknowledge is that that has [TS]

00:27:18   a cost on the people that are already [TS]

00:27:21   living in the city who are making the [TS]

00:27:23   thing that they're that they're selling [TS]

00:27:25   which is like an intact culture where [TS]

00:27:28   there's a music scene and where there [TS]

00:27:30   are you know there's room for artists [TS]

00:27:34   that don't have a lot of money to live [TS]

00:27:35   this is the thing about San Francisco [TS]

00:27:37   that when I'm down there and talking to [TS]

00:27:39   musicians I did this show while I was [TS]

00:27:42   there last week where we covered the [TS]

00:27:45   music of a couple of Wes Anderson films [TS]

00:27:47   Rushmore and Royal Tenenbaums and it was [TS]

00:27:53   you know they were probably 30 to 40 [TS]

00:27:56   musicians and most of them were either [TS]

00:28:01   old San Francisco people like the flamin [TS]

00:28:06   Groovy's were there Wow and who did [TS]

00:28:10   these days what would you do I ended up [TS]

00:28:15   doing Judy as a punk and I did a song [TS]

00:28:19   yeah which was super fun and I did [TS]

00:28:25   the Rolling Stones tune [TS]

00:28:28   I am waiting mm-hmm which is not one of [TS]

00:28:31   their greatest tunes but but the band [TS]

00:28:35   behind me was really great and Kelly [TS]

00:28:38   Stoltz was there who's a friend of mine [TS]

00:28:42   Stoltz I know that name can we stole to [TS]

00:28:45   the San Francisco in her though Kelly [TS]

00:28:50   Stoltz was mobbed up with that the kind [TS]

00:28:52   of like the Oringer kind of groups yeah [TS]

00:28:56   yeah yeah yeah okay yeah he's a great [TS]

00:28:59   musician and he hilariously covered the [TS]

00:29:03   the echo and the Bunnymen to the seminal [TS]

00:29:06   whichever one of their records people [TS]

00:29:08   consider seminal he covered that record [TS]

00:29:11   in its entirety early last year they [TS]

00:29:14   heard it and came to him and said we [TS]

00:29:19   need a rhythm guitar player oh shut up [TS]

00:29:20   you already know all the songs he's in [TS]

00:29:24   the bunny was a Russian train the record [TS]

00:29:26   I guess it must have been I'm not I'm [TS]

00:29:28   not [TS]

00:29:32   it's not that I'm against them my face [TS]

00:29:34   among them kissing the tour toys show [TS]

00:29:38   it's good ass good s record I bet it is [TS]

00:29:40   mm-hm sounds like The Killers but but so [TS]

00:29:50   Kelly is in the echo and the Bunnymen [TS]

00:29:52   and he's out there you know those guys [TS]

00:29:53   are they're very old and crusty last [TS]

00:29:59   time I saw him when he's okay did I [TS]

00:30:01   didn't tell you the story I open no I [TS]

00:30:04   opened for them oh yeah okay and he came [TS]

00:30:11   off the stage he was you know III tried [TS]

00:30:14   to interact with them a couple of times [TS]

00:30:16   and he very definitely was like boy I [TS]

00:30:19   wanted Beauregard atarid are like [TS]

00:30:23   completely unintelligible and I think he [TS]

00:30:25   knows that he is and he talks throughout [TS]

00:30:28   the show into the microphone dark hair [TS]

00:30:30   no bugger [TS]

00:30:31   I was loving it but he got off the stand [TS]

00:30:45   I'm standing by the backstage stairs he [TS]

00:30:47   gets up the stage people are like yeah [TS]

00:30:49   somebody throws a towel around his [TS]

00:30:50   shoulders and then there's an EMT a [TS]

00:30:54   medic standing there he comes down the [TS]

00:30:57   stairs and the medic hands him an oxygen [TS]

00:30:59   mask somebody do that from me and he [TS]

00:31:03   takes like four big drafts of this like [TS]

00:31:07   just just big big lungfuls of pure [TS]

00:31:11   oxygen and then he's like locked by a [TS]

00:31:14   very rare and off you want what lights a [TS]

00:31:17   cigarette and walks off and I and then [TS]

00:31:20   the EMT is packing up his stuff and I'm [TS]

00:31:22   like hey is that a real thing [TS]

00:31:26   and the guy's like no no that's not [TS]

00:31:31   gonna do anything for you but he wanted [TS]

00:31:33   it and I was here and had oxygen and [TS]

00:31:37   they hate whatever the extra hundred [TS]

00:31:39   fifty dollars is and he said like I [TS]

00:31:41   think it's just kind of a like boosts I [TS]

00:31:43   mean like a maybe get a little head rush [TS]

00:31:45   but I think it's more like you feel like [TS]

00:31:48   I got off stage and got some pure oxygen [TS]

00:31:50   I don't think and then he's kind of like [TS]

00:31:52   me which I thought was cute and funny I [TS]

00:31:58   was founded eight years after the [TS]

00:32:02   Beatles broke up and the time from [TS]

00:32:06   forming echo and the Bunnymen until now [TS]

00:32:07   is 40 years so that feels pretty good [TS]

00:32:11   did you read the thing that as of a [TS]

00:32:15   couple of days ago the Berlin Wall has [TS]

00:32:17   been down longer than it was up I reject [TS]

00:32:20   that that's very great that's very [TS]

00:32:22   troubling to me this is that night oh my [TS]

00:32:24   goodness we've had an entire Cold War [TS]

00:32:26   and all we've been doing is yelling [TS]

00:32:28   about sleeping pods in San Francisco [TS]

00:32:31   [Music] [TS]

00:32:35   that Salesforce tower that's handsome so [TS]

00:32:38   you have you been in it doesn't shower [TS]

00:32:40   allow you to go Eva and I rock behind [TS]

00:32:42   avoid downtown these days [TS]

00:32:45   but yeah I don't know you know it's the [TS]

00:32:47   other part of its that's weird again I'm [TS]

00:32:49   just I'm just I'm not reading anything [TS]

00:32:51   much while we're talking I'm going about [TS]

00:32:53   what you're saying but it what you're [TS]

00:32:55   describing also the let's say the [TS]

00:32:58   obvious thing it's it is what what some [TS]

00:33:02   of these companies do is weird and at [TS]

00:33:05   the least tone-deaf but also they're [TS]

00:33:08   like this kind of shocked surprised that [TS]

00:33:12   people don't like what they're doing [TS]

00:33:14   once they're kind of clocked doing what [TS]

00:33:16   they're doing you know like whether that [TS]

00:33:18   stuff with your data or you know stuff [TS]

00:33:20   with your other data or building a [TS]

00:33:22   bubble there's this whole sense of like [TS]

00:33:24   oh what do you mean like we're just [TS]

00:33:26   we're just making tech techniques like [TS]

00:33:29   why you guys getting all mad at us like [TS]

00:33:30   like the fact that like you know I [TS]

00:33:32   didn't realize we had to like ask [TS]

00:33:33   permission to make your city good look [TS]

00:33:38   at us making you're making your stupid [TS]

00:33:40   fucking town into a destination for the [TS]

00:33:42   most desirable men in America like Wow [TS]

00:33:44   how dare you get mad do we put some [TS]

00:33:46   ferns in a pot downtown oh man there [TS]

00:33:55   wasn't a Jimmy John's downtown before [TS]

00:33:57   and now there is one song right yeah so [TS]

00:34:00   thank you you know I mean it's I guess [TS]

00:34:03   you could overstate this but like you [TS]

00:34:06   know it's kind of got the meme of like [TS]

00:34:08   oh you know should I not have done that [TS]

00:34:09   where it's like oh that thing we're like [TS]

00:34:12   you this app downloads your entire [TS]

00:34:13   contact list and uploads it to the clewd [TS]

00:34:16   supposed to do that makes people [TS]

00:34:19   frustrated that we now collate all that [TS]

00:34:21   data against these perma cookies from [TS]

00:34:23   facebook is that weird that is that bad [TS]

00:34:25   and you're like yeah man that are bad [TS]

00:34:27   like you know if you not only should you [TS]

00:34:30   have asked about that but you shouldn't [TS]

00:34:32   have done it you shouldn't have done it [TS]

00:34:33   and needed to ask but doing it and not [TS]

00:34:35   asking is mega gross I don't know if [TS]

00:34:38   this has happened to you oh you don't [TS]

00:34:39   have a Facebook account or ever go on [TS]

00:34:41   there I have a deactivated Facebook [TS]

00:34:43   account that I have to use sometimes to [TS]

00:34:46   log into something but I don't post [TS]

00:34:47   there or read there right [TS]

00:34:50   and now so I try not to talk about it [TS]

00:34:52   but if you ask I will tell you I think [TS]

00:34:53   III I am one of the OGS at knowing that [TS]

00:34:56   place is a fucking garbage fire your [TS]

00:34:58   welcome it in my case I yeah but what [TS]

00:35:06   what what happened the other day was I I [TS]

00:35:10   got a DM last time I heard about you [TS]

00:35:16   getting a DM it was that you hadn't [TS]

00:35:18   gotten somebody free tickets for a show [TS]

00:35:20   fast enough [TS]

00:35:21   uh-huh that's the last one I remember [TS]

00:35:22   cuz that's where you go you go to [TS]

00:35:24   Facebook and you go past for somebody [TS]

00:35:26   that they hadn't given you a free thing [TS]

00:35:27   fast and I get the MS people give me the [TS]

00:35:30   MS and and I don't I don't mind him I'll [TS]

00:35:33   take you DM sure um you know don't do it [TS]

00:35:36   all the time I don't want I don't want [TS]

00:35:38   to hear about things I don't want to [TS]

00:35:39   hear about but if you've got something [TS]

00:35:40   you want to tell me it is literally [TS]

00:35:45   something private you know there you go [TS]

00:35:47   I mean it isn't private that you're [TS]

00:35:49   showing me your pictures your family cuz [TS]

00:35:51   I don't know you yeah that's not a thing [TS]

00:35:53   that needed to be private but but if you [TS]

00:35:55   have a question or you want to talk to [TS]

00:35:57   me yeah [TS]

00:35:57   so anyway I got a DM and I did what I [TS]

00:36:01   often do which is I went and clicked on [TS]

00:36:03   the thing to see their profile because I [TS]

00:36:05   want to know who I'm talking to because [TS]

00:36:06   a lot of times somebody will be like [TS]

00:36:09   yeah and I'm like do I know you and then [TS]

00:36:15   I go on their Facebook page I'm like I [TS]

00:36:17   do know you like you're the guy that I [TS]

00:36:20   went on that long road trip with I [TS]

00:36:21   wouldn't have remembered your name but [TS]

00:36:23   you and I are friends [TS]

00:36:25   yep so I got as opposed to being for [TS]

00:36:28   example a public relations person who [TS]

00:36:30   acts like they know you [TS]

00:36:31   exactly not that cuz that's the thing [TS]

00:36:34   that this person comes on the thing and [TS]

00:36:36   they're like hey hey what's up man or [TS]

00:36:39   something in it and you know usually you [TS]

00:36:41   know when it's a bot or when it's a [TS]

00:36:42   patrol but this was just it's just [TS]

00:36:44   plausible enough like did I tell you I [TS]

00:36:47   started getting emails from ben shapiro [TS]

00:36:49   do you know who that is yeah and and [TS]

00:36:52   these emails started coming into my [TS]

00:36:54   inbox and the problem is I know eight [TS]

00:36:58   people whose names are some combination [TS]

00:37:02   of Ben Shapiro [TS]

00:37:04   sure sure sure sure I know like are they [TS]

00:37:06   also the future of the conservative [TS]

00:37:08   movement yeah no they're not right I [TS]

00:37:12   have a lot of friends that are like I [TS]

00:37:14   have a lot of friends that are named [TS]

00:37:15   Shapiro I have a lot of friends that [TS]

00:37:16   whose names you know are in the in the [TS]

00:37:18   larger family but but not the larger [TS]

00:37:22   family event just the smaller family I [TS]

00:37:25   have 40 friends named Ben so I was [TS]

00:37:28   getting these emails and I would open [TS]

00:37:29   them because I'm like Oh Ben Shapiro's [TS]

00:37:31   got a question or oh yeah ben shapiro [TS]

00:37:33   wants me to and then i would open and [TS]

00:37:35   i'd be like ah sticky on you yeah and so [TS]

00:37:41   anyway this facebook DM was from a [TS]

00:37:44   person that seemed plausible and I went [TS]

00:37:48   to click on their thing and I and I [TS]

00:37:51   couldn't get to their profile it was [TS]

00:37:53   like uh you would click on and it would [TS]

00:37:55   say you know actions a thumbs up delete [TS]

00:38:00   block and I'm like stuff I don't want to [TS]

00:38:03   do any of those things I just want to [TS]

00:38:05   see who this is that's trying to talk to [TS]

00:38:06   me and I click on it again I click over [TS]

00:38:09   here I click on the little wheel I click [TS]

00:38:11   on the on the widget I click on the flag [TS]

00:38:13   and it's like would you like to add this [TS]

00:38:17   person to your contacts would you like [TS]

00:38:18   to save this conversation options would [TS]

00:38:22   you like to give them a wave would you [TS]

00:38:23   like to give him a poke a little little [TS]

00:38:27   pat on the fanny and I'm like no no no [TS]

00:38:29   no no I want to see who the fuck this is [TS]

00:38:33   couldn't do it and and dedicated five [TS]

00:38:37   minutes to a 5 frustrating minutes to [TS]

00:38:40   trying to figure out why I couldn't see [TS]

00:38:43   who this was uh-huh well a day or two [TS]

00:38:47   later I read a thing that says Facebook [TS]

00:38:50   has decided to incur open up messenger [TS]

00:38:57   their shit EDM platform to people that [TS]

00:39:01   don't even have Facebook pages because [TS]

00:39:04   they want their DM program to to be the [TS]

00:39:10   new SMS oh it's like as a green bubble [TS]

00:39:12   text yeah [TS]

00:39:14   I know right I mean somebody from [TS]

00:39:15   outside the ecosystem you [TS]

00:39:17   right but because China I guess won't [TS]

00:39:21   allow Facebook but they don't want to [TS]

00:39:23   miss out on the on the a billion [TS]

00:39:26   customers they've figured out a [TS]

00:39:27   workaround which is now you can just use [TS]

00:39:29   messenger [TS]

00:39:30   well what they've done is they've [TS]

00:39:32   introduced now into the system the [TS]

00:39:34   possibility that some spammer comes out [TS]

00:39:38   of nowhere and I don't even I can't [TS]

00:39:39   verify their Facebook's bug slash [TS]

00:39:43   features was you had to prove that you [TS]

00:39:45   or you equals equals zero that your name [TS]

00:39:46   is you I thought that too but now [TS]

00:39:50   there's this person and now subsequently [TS]

00:39:53   they've come back a second time and been [TS]

00:39:55   like wave hi mmm [TS]

00:39:58   but it's a spam because they haven't [TS]

00:40:00   said anything they're not asking me [TS]

00:40:02   anything I don't want to just like be on [TS]

00:40:03   there waving at you whoever you are but [TS]

00:40:07   like there's still the possibility that [TS]

00:40:08   the third time they're gonna write me [TS]

00:40:10   they're gonna say hey don't you remember [TS]

00:40:14   you know because it's like don't you [TS]

00:40:15   remember me they might actually be [TS]

00:40:16   somebody that I know right no I I I'm [TS]

00:40:19   you're explaining this just fine I know [TS]

00:40:20   exactly what you're talking about [TS]

00:40:22   but you have to determine is this an [TS]

00:40:24   actual person if this is a person can I [TS]

00:40:26   judge what their intent is because I'm [TS]

00:40:29   so fucking sick of being punked out by [TS]

00:40:31   PR people and robots that it has made me [TS]

00:40:34   suspicious and a little cynical about [TS]

00:40:37   that and it's sort of like the way that [TS]

00:40:40   anybody who ever knew me mostly would [TS]

00:40:43   not call me on the phone like you've [TS]

00:40:45   called me on the phone I pick up it says [TS]

00:40:47   it's John I pick it up but like but like [TS]

00:40:49   it's a pretty good sign that it's not [TS]

00:40:51   anybody I know or want to talk to you if [TS]

00:40:53   they if they call me on the phone and my [TS]

00:40:55   various spam filtering apps on iPhone [TS]

00:40:58   tell me that like the vast majority of [TS]

00:40:59   phone calls I get are garbage it just it [TS]

00:41:01   says it right there and at a certain [TS]

00:41:03   point you know you have to we have a [TS]

00:41:06   permissive model of communication that [TS]

00:41:08   used to be a really good idea which is [TS]

00:41:10   that whether you're talking about a [TS]

00:41:11   telephone you're talking about email the [TS]

00:41:13   democratizing force of that was that [TS]

00:41:14   anybody can reach out to anybody and [TS]

00:41:16   like it's it is it's a great [TS]

00:41:18   democratizing idea but like now we're at [TS]

00:41:20   a point where when you reach a point [TS]

00:41:21   where most of the inbound communication [TS]

00:41:23   is harassment or junk maybe that's a [TS]

00:41:26   model that we need to flip around and [TS]

00:41:27   until that model is flipped around I go [TS]

00:41:29   out [TS]

00:41:29   do I spend 15 minutes on due diligence [TS]

00:41:31   before 30 to spending 30 seconds saying [TS]

00:41:33   thanks for the note yeah right because [TS]

00:41:35   that's just how my fucking broken brain [TS]

00:41:37   is it's like I don't want to get in a [TS]

00:41:38   conversation with a PR person and and [TS]

00:41:40   feed them stuff that makes them think [TS]

00:41:42   that they are cleft onto me and can [TS]

00:41:44   count on me to go you know promote their [TS]

00:41:46   energy drink or whatever just I'm just a [TS]

00:41:49   tired of that it's just blue so you but [TS]

00:41:53   I was sitting thinking about the [TS]

00:41:55   internal logic at Facebook where they [TS]

00:41:58   have one of the largest media companies [TS]

00:42:02   and tech companies in the world although [TS]

00:42:04   they said I'm not a media company and [TS]

00:42:06   they are worth billions and billions [TS]

00:42:08   everybody there is richer than Croesus [TS]

00:42:11   said are you saying I don't think I know [TS]

00:42:16   the reference well it's fun then is this [TS]

00:42:20   bleeding over from your other goddamn [TS]

00:42:22   show I think I just learned about the [TS]

00:42:24   fenestration that was a very good [TS]

00:42:25   episode crease did you like it you know [TS]

00:42:28   you want me to tell you the truth yes I [TS]

00:42:30   absolutely was not super into it [TS]

00:42:32   for the two or three episodes I listened [TS]

00:42:34   to and I thought this calculation for [TS]

00:42:36   John I don't like this show that much [TS]

00:42:37   and then I listened to more of them and [TS]

00:42:39   I've come to really enjoy it and I think [TS]

00:42:41   I think some episodes are way better [TS]

00:42:42   than others in a way that will [TS]

00:42:44   eventually balance out but your [TS]

00:42:45   chemistry is actually really good and [TS]

00:42:47   ken is genuinely fucking funny yeah I [TS]

00:42:50   think the bouncing checks joke is the [TS]

00:42:52   stupidest the smart joke I've ever heard [TS]

00:42:54   and he had it ready he wrote it the [TS]

00:42:56   night before anyway yeah I just I give a [TS]

00:42:58   thumbs-up I'll go listen to I'm the [TS]

00:43:00   bus's it's a good show there were the [TS]

00:43:02   first couple were pretty stiff we were [TS]

00:43:04   trying to figure out how to do it yeah I [TS]

00:43:06   think that Ken he's so funny and I and [TS]

00:43:09   I've been meaning to he's so funny and [TS]

00:43:11   fast and I can you know why I like him [TS]

00:43:12   because I you know you start to like [TS]

00:43:14   somebody when they make the joke that [TS]

00:43:16   you would have made and I'm like oh this [TS]

00:43:17   guy's good fast I think I just want to [TS]

00:43:21   empower him to interrupt me more you [TS]

00:43:23   know he's very polite right and vice for [TS]

00:43:26   doing a podcast with you that a lot of [TS]

00:43:27   people could take yeah yeah I want him [TS]

00:43:30   to I want him to say yeah I want him to [TS]

00:43:34   say his joke mm-hmm you know he's got [TS]

00:43:36   the joke and he's being he's like a [TS]

00:43:39   little microphone shy like he doesn't [TS]

00:43:42   want to jump in [TS]

00:43:43   is my step on you yeah but but we were [TS]

00:43:45   sitting across from each other at a [TS]

00:43:46   table so I can see him so if he's gonna [TS]

00:43:49   like jump in it there it'll be visible [TS]

00:43:52   on his eyes then it went you know if you [TS]

00:43:54   listen to that show it's not really very [TS]

00:43:56   edited we just don't talk over each [TS]

00:43:58   other because we're looking at each [TS]

00:43:59   other and but yeah I'm proud of it I [TS]

00:44:03   think it's getting better all the time [TS]

00:44:04   well good for you I'm glad I'm glad [TS]

00:44:06   you're doing it yeah thanks I don't [TS]

00:44:08   think it's Croesus I think it's Croesus [TS]

00:44:10   mmm but but it doesn't I liked those [TS]

00:44:13   names it sound like it might be somebody [TS]

00:44:15   from ancient Greek Greece or Rome or it [TS]

00:44:16   could be somebody from West Virginia [TS]

00:44:20   Cletus well Croesus was very rich King [TS]

00:44:23   Croesus and when you say richer than [TS]

00:44:26   Croesus you're saying that that's a way [TS]

00:44:28   of describing you are describing someone [TS]

00:44:31   as being rich I'll save that barometer [TS]

00:44:34   okay thank you but but so thinking about [TS]

00:44:38   internally in Facebook uh-huh there the [TS]

00:44:41   business culture that if that is saying [TS]

00:44:45   rather than saying let's improve the [TS]

00:44:48   user experience for the billion people [TS]

00:44:50   who are using our platform let's make it [TS]

00:44:53   better for them let's make it a better [TS]

00:44:56   environment let's make it a better [TS]

00:44:59   product their mentality is how do we get [TS]

00:45:03   another billion people to use this and [TS]

00:45:07   if getting another billion people to use [TS]

00:45:09   this makes it worse for the billion [TS]

00:45:11   customers we have that's not our problem [TS]

00:45:14   like we need to just keep patching the [TS]

00:45:18   holes in in our program because people [TS]

00:45:22   are you know they got nowhere else to go [TS]

00:45:23   if they want to show pictures to their [TS]

00:45:25   grandma but what we want is a is a [TS]

00:45:28   billion more users that's our business [TS]

00:45:30   model and that's so different from what [TS]

00:45:33   the attitude of business was up until [TS]

00:45:36   recent times you know the attitude of [TS]

00:45:39   business back when it was the customer's [TS]

00:45:41   always right what you want to do is get [TS]

00:45:44   a customer for life and keep them happy [TS]

00:45:46   and that person will will tell their [TS]

00:45:49   friends and come back and use your [TS]

00:45:51   buying tires this time they'll be back [TS]

00:45:54   in a few years [TS]

00:45:54   right and [TS]

00:45:57   he contrasts that with now which is just [TS]

00:45:59   like well you know you have to use our [TS]

00:46:01   product cuz we're because we bought all [TS]

00:46:03   the competitors and we're just you know [TS]

00:46:06   you're not gonna like it but you can't [TS]

00:46:10   log in to any of the other things you [TS]

00:46:13   want to do on the web without using us [TS]

00:46:15   now because because basically we've made [TS]

00:46:18   it so that either you one click into [TS]

00:46:24   this this new thing through Facebook or [TS]

00:46:26   you spend 15 minutes filling out a form [TS]

00:46:29   and it's like okay you're right yet my [TS]

00:46:32   laziness and my like my my laziness is [TS]

00:46:37   my culpability but it's just it's so I [TS]

00:46:43   don't I don't know we you and I both [TS]

00:46:46   have many many many many opportunities [TS]

00:46:47   on our various shows to talk about how [TS]

00:46:51   disappointed we are in the Internet but [TS]

00:46:54   but this this situation or Amazon has [TS]

00:46:57   built some orbs now I just got a letter [TS]

00:47:00   just as we were sitting here from radio [TS]

00:47:02   station and they're saying they don't [TS]

00:47:18   need me on the show they're gonna have [TS]

00:47:20   some architects come on instead and the [TS]

00:47:24   the woman Amana who I was speaking to [TS]

00:47:27   and I kind of ranted at her for a while [TS]

00:47:28   about this she says I guess Amazon does [TS]

00:47:33   have a few ways to let the public see [TS]

00:47:35   the spheres limited but they have a [TS]

00:47:39   visitor exhibit section and they do [TS]

00:47:41   cooperate tours that's nice but you have [TS]

00:47:46   to schedule them and they are only on [TS]

00:47:47   Wednesdays so I guess technically the [TS]

00:47:51   public if they plan in advance can [TS]

00:47:52   interact with them a bit but I still [TS]

00:47:55   think it's an interesting conversation [TS]

00:47:56   thanks for your time oh and I don't mean [TS]

00:48:01   to mock her she's trying to do a radio [TS]

00:48:03   she's got a job to do but bringing in [TS]

00:48:07   architects I mean you know you know what [TS]

00:48:08   the generals run the war you know I'm [TS]

00:48:09   saying that's right [TS]

00:48:10   gonna be like well I think Barbara for [TS]

00:48:14   um there's not enough electrical outlets [TS]

00:48:18   but but so Amazon is covering their ass [TS]

00:48:21   and anybody that's listening to this [TS]

00:48:23   show that works at Amazon that is a [TS]

00:48:24   partisan is gonna say you can go on [TS]

00:48:27   Wednesdays yeah I mean it's you know [TS]

00:48:29   it's booked through March of 2024 but [TS]

00:48:33   get your name on a list yeah yeah yeah I [TS]

00:48:41   guess it's it's you know I don't know [TS]

00:48:44   it's easy to there's so many things to [TS]

00:48:45   be outraged about these days for good [TS]

00:48:47   reasons and there's so many things to [TS]

00:48:49   outraged about that statement I'm sorry [TS]

00:48:52   Philip bug there's so much stuff that um [TS]

00:48:55   just kind of Royals inside of you and [TS]

00:48:57   like so for me like I just don't talk [TS]

00:48:58   about Facebook anymore because I don't [TS]

00:49:00   want to be that guy who's like yeah well [TS]

00:49:03   no you're just figuring that out boop [TS]

00:49:04   boop I hate that guy on the Internet [TS]

00:49:05   stop being that person on the Internet [TS]

00:49:07   oh oh you didn't notice that till no you [TS]

00:49:10   know it's like oh god just don't do that [TS]

00:49:13   so I don't do that because I don't think [TS]

00:49:14   there's anything that fruitful in me [TS]

00:49:15   going see I told you Facebook was bad [TS]

00:49:17   and dumb but there's also this that's [TS]

00:49:21   too much called a lobster trap but not [TS]

00:49:22   too too much but there are these kinds [TS]

00:49:24   of things where you're like well well I [TS]

00:49:26   guess we got to where we are now and how [TS]

00:49:28   do we feel about that and it's like the [TS]

00:49:30   the Menino one the now discredited myth [TS]

00:49:33   but the still useful analogy of the frog [TS]

00:49:34   in boiling water where it becomes a [TS]

00:49:36   question of well if we need to get [TS]

00:49:37   another billion users and we need to get [TS]

00:49:38   this adoption to move up if it's bad I [TS]

00:49:43   think that's a huge issue for Twitter [TS]

00:49:44   where they're not growing anywhere near [TS]

00:49:46   where they need to for their valuation [TS]

00:49:48   so then you get into this thing and [TS]

00:49:50   saying like well you know we can just [TS]

00:49:52   keep moving these buttons around and now [TS]

00:49:53   you can thread tweets and there's all [TS]

00:49:54   this kind of stuff even though I mean of [TS]

00:49:57   course the chorus the response that is [TS]

00:49:59   well what about what about the abuse and [TS]

00:50:01   Nazis is that a thing you're gonna make [TS]

00:50:02   a button for cuz that's really upsetting [TS]

00:50:03   to a lot of people who've been here from [TS]

00:50:05   the beginning but you have to you end up [TS]

00:50:08   doing this kind of funny calculation in [TS]

00:50:10   your head of saying like oh okay if [TS]

00:50:11   you're saying if they want to get [TS]

00:50:13   another billion users or whatever it is [TS]

00:50:15   on Facebook or on Twitter then it [TS]

00:50:17   becomes this weird I guess it becomes a [TS]

00:50:18   balancing act of how many people will [TS]

00:50:20   tolerate those changes for how long [TS]

00:50:23   or that just goes somewhere else at the [TS]

00:50:25   time when you and I you know during the [TS]

00:50:27   full full fruition of our relationship I [TS]

00:50:30   feel like the big thing was MySpace and [TS]

00:50:32   there was a time when everybody thought [TS]

00:50:33   there's no way anything will be bigger [TS]

00:50:35   than myspace it was such a juggernaut [TS]

00:50:37   and then I think Facebook you know kind [TS]

00:50:39   of took that over and myspace still has [TS]

00:50:41   its demographics and localities where [TS]

00:50:43   it's very popular but I don't know I [TS]

00:50:45   don't have a smart opinion about this [TS]

00:50:46   but like as somebody who is outside of [TS]

00:50:49   the boiling pot I'm a frog outside the [TS]

00:50:50   pod I I do think it's interesting that [TS]

00:50:54   people using Facebook seem to bring to [TS]

00:51:00   it the approximate joy of draining a [TS]

00:51:01   wound near their eye it's the same way I [TS]

00:51:04   felt I never saw anybody look happy [TS]

00:51:06   using a blackberry and these days I [TS]

00:51:08   never see anybody happy there's nobody [TS]

00:51:11   who's excited about Facebook anymore as [TS]

00:51:13   a veteran user that's might maybe not [TS]

00:51:15   entirely true but people have been using [TS]

00:51:16   it for five or more years I think by and [TS]

00:51:18   large they will all tell you that they [TS]

00:51:21   do it out of this grudging sense of [TS]

00:51:22   obligation now maybe it's because of [TS]

00:51:24   their family and they need to post [TS]

00:51:26   photos there maybe it's because of their [TS]

00:51:27   work but you know I mean if who looks [TS]

00:51:30   forward to using LinkedIn like who's [TS]

00:51:32   excited about you know what I mean and I [TS]

00:51:35   don't know I mean I don't I don't know [TS]

00:51:36   where the inflection point comes maybe [TS]

00:51:38   some of the improvements they make that [TS]

00:51:40   attract another billion people are also [TS]

00:51:41   good for the people who are already [TS]

00:51:42   there but and that's kind of the [TS]

00:51:44   interesting balancing act is that the [TS]

00:51:46   kinds of things that make the system [TS]

00:51:48   more permissive are generally the kinds [TS]

00:51:50   of things that make other people feel [TS]

00:51:51   more exposed when you make it easier for [TS]

00:51:54   randos and new accounts to get to me [TS]

00:51:56   without any way for me to control that [TS]

00:51:58   like that's not good for me that's not [TS]

00:52:00   good for anybody and I'm a fucking 51 [TS]

00:52:02   year old white guy I have the easiest [TS]

00:52:04   thing in the whole world but did you for [TS]

00:52:07   example did you see the New York Times [TS]

00:52:07   article yesterday I believe it was about [TS]

00:52:10   buying followers did you see that [TS]

00:52:12   article no followers huh [TS]

00:52:16   can you still buy Paul oh absolutely but [TS]

00:52:19   this I'll leave it to you to go go look [TS]

00:52:21   it up at your leisure but I thought it [TS]

00:52:23   was everybody's been talking about it a [TS]

00:52:25   lot especially on political Twitter the [TS]

00:52:27   last couple days because they used some [TS]

00:52:30   data visualizations data analysis that's [TS]

00:52:33   extremely interesting [TS]

00:52:35   long story short this particular company [TS]

00:52:39   that sells followers for one thing they [TS]

00:52:42   are basically taking in some cases [TS]

00:52:44   acquiring the accounts of real people [TS]

00:52:46   and like like those the the zombie the [TS]

00:52:49   zombie that eats out an ant's brain like [TS]

00:52:52   it turns your account into one of their [TS]

00:52:54   follower accounts now that they can [TS]

00:52:55   deploy but it leaves a fingerprint you [TS]

00:52:57   can sometimes see that there are these [TS]

00:53:00   changes or these new accounts that are [TS]

00:53:01   all happening at roughly the same time [TS]

00:53:03   and when somebody buys X number of [TS]

00:53:05   followers it's it's a thousand [TS]

00:53:08   fingerprints are left behind of like [TS]

00:53:10   this certain pattern that is very almost [TS]

00:53:12   easy to detect because a lot of hard [TS]

00:53:14   work went into it but when you look at [TS]

00:53:16   it it's it's staggering how similar the [TS]

00:53:18   pattern is so you see these these these [TS]

00:53:20   nerds at the New York Times do this [TS]

00:53:22   great work and then you think like man [TS]

00:53:24   first of all Twitter it was the [TS]

00:53:26   Twitter's very good API to let them do [TS]

00:53:28   that analysis they have a very [TS]

00:53:29   permissive API that's fairly powerful [TS]

00:53:31   for doing data analysis that's super [TS]

00:53:33   cool but jesus fucking christ how hard [TS]

00:53:35   would it be for them to do that how hard [TS]

00:53:37   would it be for them to go in and look [TS]

00:53:40   for patterns that are just blindingly [TS]

00:53:42   obvious this for a long time was the [TS]

00:53:44   boobs and butts problem where every time [TS]

00:53:46   time you post something a picture of a [TS]

00:53:48   boob or a butt would favorite it and I [TS]

00:53:50   think that's kind of gone down the part [TS]

00:53:53   that astonished me about that though was [TS]

00:53:54   there was such a similarity to every one [TS]

00:53:57   of the accounts you don't even need to [TS]

00:53:58   have deep learning to go like Oh are [TS]

00:54:00   there boobs in this picture just the [TS]

00:54:01   very way there was always a pin tweet [TS]

00:54:03   that was about this kind of subject [TS]

00:54:05   matter [TS]

00:54:05   they're always these kinds of things in [TS]

00:54:07   the bio there's always you can even look [TS]

00:54:09   at the links to the like dot are you [TS]

00:54:10   sites or whatever it's just kind of shit [TS]

00:54:12   we're like I don't even barely know how [TS]

00:54:14   to use fucking Excel and I could see the [TS]

00:54:15   pattern if I had if I had if I had two [TS]

00:54:18   months of Perl I'd be able to write [TS]

00:54:19   something that would be able to identify [TS]

00:54:20   plus or minus twenty percent probably [TS]

00:54:23   thousands of these accounts so that's I [TS]

00:54:26   mean now I am fucking ranting but that's [TS]

00:54:28   the part that's frustrating is like this [TS]

00:54:29   is their party guys this is their this [TS]

00:54:32   is their house this is your couch dude [TS]

00:54:35   you're letting everybody come in and [TS]

00:54:36   shit on and then like we're at work [TS]

00:54:38   she's expected to sit there and go wow [TS]

00:54:39   that was a really good shit yeah that [TS]

00:54:40   was awesome great like why don't they [TS]

00:54:42   use some of that firepower they've got [TS]

00:54:44   when I mean and a cynical person would [TS]

00:54:46   say well I'll tell you why [TS]

00:54:48   there's a reason they they don't do [TS]

00:54:50   anything to try and curtail the most [TS]

00:54:52   extreme voices and it's the same reason [TS]

00:54:54   that clickbait headlines get lots of [TS]

00:54:56   comments every comment and every comment [TS]

00:54:58   is at least three page views every time [TS]

00:55:00   we're outraged and reload we are [TS]

00:55:02   engaging at a level that is exactly the [TS]

00:55:05   kind of metric that they are selling [TS]

00:55:06   right now so you know it's like that old [TS]

00:55:08   thing was that [TS]

00:55:09   what's-his-name says about like you know [TS]

00:55:11   never expect anybody to understand [TS]

00:55:12   something that you know jeopardizes [TS]

00:55:14   their job that's the frustrating part [TS]

00:55:16   and then they just play it off legit and [TS]

00:55:17   go yeah we're trying real hard here's [TS]

00:55:18   our update like sorry for all the Nazis [TS]

00:55:20   I mean I when I say that the old [TS]

00:55:26   business model was customer's always [TS]

00:55:28   right I know that there are there's a [TS]

00:55:31   lot of eye rolling about my 1940s idea [TS]

00:55:36   of what capitalism is but this isn't [TS]

00:55:41   better and it isn't an evolution it is a [TS]

00:55:47   very a very narrow idea of what business [TS]

00:55:52   is and it's you know the narrow idea of [TS]

00:55:56   people that have only studied business [TS]

00:55:58   and they have not I mean it's the in [TS]

00:56:03   some ways the rise of the business [TS]

00:56:04   school because it used to be that you [TS]

00:56:08   went to university and you studied [TS]

00:56:10   things and then you went and you started [TS]

00:56:12   a business and if you go to business [TS]

00:56:14   school and you study business you are [TS]

00:56:18   studying you know in a lot of ways a [TS]

00:56:21   very kind of culty discipline where [TS]

00:56:27   things are in fashion and out of fashion [TS]

00:56:29   and just but you're also you're starting [TS]

00:56:32   with these infrastructural things that [TS]

00:56:36   without regard to what it is that you [TS]

00:56:38   are quote unquote selling they're just [TS]

00:56:40   very very foreign to someone like you or [TS]

00:56:42   me like you didn't get into music by [TS]

00:56:44   saying hey what what what kind of music [TS]

00:56:46   should I be recording to sell the most [TS]

00:56:48   records right or how can I sell t-shirts [TS]

00:56:50   what's a good way to sell t-shirts I [TS]

00:56:51   know I'll make some band music yes right [TS]

00:56:54   like you know they're going to business [TS]

00:56:56   school with no novel idea they're not [TS]

00:56:59   going there because they built a better [TS]

00:57:01   Mouse [TS]

00:57:01   and they want to sell it they're going [TS]

00:57:03   there just like I'm going to get into [TS]

00:57:05   business and then they learn business [TS]

00:57:09   and then are frantically casting about [TS]

00:57:12   trying to find a way to have something [TS]

00:57:16   to do a business about yeah to do a [TS]

00:57:17   business mm-hm and and so some of them [TS]

00:57:21   think like oh I'm gonna you know I'm [TS]

00:57:23   gonna go out and talk to inventors and [TS]

00:57:25   some and a lot of them are just like [TS]

00:57:27   what what can I get that will attract [TS]

00:57:29   attention to me long enough that I can [TS]

00:57:31   cash out and then there are these models [TS]

00:57:34   like Twitter there was a there was a [TS]

00:57:37   proposal and I forget exactly who made [TS]

00:57:39   it and I thought and I responded to it [TS]

00:57:42   kind of like this is amazing why don't [TS]

00:57:44   we do this and I know that it is a [TS]

00:57:46   flawed premise but also it's it was a it [TS]

00:57:51   was suggestive of a way of thinking [TS]

00:57:54   which was why don't we put together a [TS]

00:57:59   like a multinational entity to buy [TS]

00:58:04   Twitter that is the current valuation [TS]

00:58:06   and make it a non-profit because it is [TS]

00:58:11   in its older version was such a benefit [TS]

00:58:16   to the world honestly I think it was you [TS]

00:58:20   know it did fulfill the promise of like [TS]

00:58:23   what would happen if everybody could [TS]

00:58:24   just talk and you know so many of my [TS]

00:58:27   friends came from Twitter like people [TS]

00:58:30   that I know in real life who changed my [TS]

00:58:33   job if it hadn't been for Twitter I [TS]

00:58:35   would have not I mean I done podcast [TS]

00:58:37   before but I mean real talk if I had not [TS]

00:58:39   been on Twitter I would not have met [TS]

00:58:40   Scott and Adam I would not have done you [TS]

00:58:42   look nice today and I would not have [TS]

00:58:43   seen podcasts as a thing that I could do [TS]

00:58:45   as something like my job right stop if [TS]

00:58:48   it weren't for Twitter and favor that [TS]

00:58:49   would have happened [TS]

00:58:50   me too right I would never have I mean I [TS]

00:58:53   met Amy man after a show and she was [TS]

00:58:56   like you covered my song and and you did [TS]

00:58:59   it wrong and I was like I know but I [TS]

00:59:01   didn't practice that much and she was [TS]

00:59:03   like yeah well pretty good kid keep it [TS]

00:59:06   up and I was like loll you're Amy man [TS]

00:59:09   high five but then the next day she [TS]

00:59:12   followed me on Twitter [TS]

00:59:14   and I was like wow you know shit and so [TS]

00:59:18   I followed her back and I was like hey [TS]

00:59:20   what's up and she was like loll and I [TS]

00:59:23   said and and then within four months she [TS]

00:59:33   said will you fly back to having never [TS]

00:59:36   seen her since she said will you fly [TS]

00:59:38   back to New York City and do a show in [TS]

00:59:40   Central Park with me [TS]

00:59:41   where we cover Simon & Garfunkel and [TS]

00:59:44   Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel are going [TS]

00:59:46   to be there and I said only happen [TS]