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H.I. #97: Tesla in Space


01:00:00   possibly not be true who would ever

01:00:01   confess to a crime that they haven't

01:00:03   committed and I was watching this I just

01:00:05   kept thinking why don't we have

01:00:08   professional jurors I don't understand

01:00:12   why it's like an advantage to pull a

01:00:17   bunch of randos off the street and have

01:00:22   them being the one in in the trial

01:00:25   circumstances

01:00:26   well because here's the thing I feel

01:00:28   like having watched a bunch of these

01:00:29   episodes this idea kept coming into my

01:00:33   head that part of the problem

01:00:34   is not even just that you can manipulate

01:00:37   a person into confessing a crime that

01:00:39   they did not commit the other half of

01:00:42   the problem is the way that the

01:00:44   prosecution can manipulate the jury to

01:00:48   get a win for the prosecution because

01:00:51   the jurors are unfamiliar with what the

01:00:53   system is surely it would be an

01:00:56   advantage to have people who are

01:00:59   professional jurors who are familiar

01:01:02   with how the whole system works doing

01:01:05   this who don't have to a newbie

01:01:08   explained every time here's what police

01:01:11   procedures should be who don't have to

01:01:13   anew every time be introduced to and

01:01:17   convinced and sold on the idea that a

01:01:20   confession is not as a reliable piece of

01:01:23   evidence as you think it is it's just

01:01:25   blowing my mind thinking about the

01:01:26   man-hours as a society we must invest in

01:01:31   re-explaining stuff too every brand-new

01:01:36   pool of jurors that exists and I'm just

01:01:41   what like is there something that I'm

01:01:42   missing here is there an argument

01:01:43   against professional jurors I've never

01:01:45   really thought about it until yesterday

01:01:48   and today when I was watching these

01:01:49   episodes but it's just like I can't get

01:01:50   this out of my head why is this not a

01:01:52   thing that we have oh you're making my

01:01:55   head explode

01:01:55   I've thought of so many things to say I

01:01:57   can't remember the moment well I mean

01:02:00   every jurisdiction is different and I

01:02:02   finally talked about jurisdictions in

01:02:04   which I've have experiences like a

01:02:06   journalist and have lived in the first

01:02:08   thing I'd say is in most of the places

01:02:10   I've lived we do have professional do

01:02:13   their code judges and in a lot of

01:02:16   jurisdictions you can choose if you wish

01:02:18   to be judged by the judge the

01:02:21   professional juror instead of a jury of

01:02:24   civilians and the reason most people

01:02:27   don't do that is because juries are

01:02:30   actually in the defense's best interest

01:02:32   in most cases and they would prefer to

01:02:34   have a jury so suggesting that a juries

01:02:36   are too easily manipulated by the

01:02:37   prosecution I think it's the exact

01:02:39   opposite and they're too easily

01:02:40   manipulated by the defense well I think

01:02:42   we could say that they're too easily

01:02:43   manipulated right well fair enough and

01:02:46   we have this thing that it's enshrined

01:02:47   in law in some places that you can be

01:02:50   tried by your peers and it's not

01:02:52   enshrined in law that you can be tried

01:02:55   by professionally appointed government

01:02:58   appointed officials who are part of like

01:03:01   the establishment and I think that would

01:03:04   cause an even bigger problem if everyone

01:03:05   was being tried by government appointees

01:03:07   you can see that's the thin end of a

01:03:09   wedge that's going to get really

01:03:10   problematic really quickly I think when

01:03:13   you say it like professional jurors

01:03:15   you've got this nice idea in your head

01:03:16   of like you know just smart super fair

01:03:19   impartial people but they have to be

01:03:21   appointed and who appoints them a

01:03:23   government and as soon as you say

01:03:25   government appointed officials are going

01:03:27   to be deciding who's innocent and guilty

01:03:28   you've totally lost this tried by your

01:03:31   peers component of the law that is so

01:03:34   sacred to so many people yeah I don't

01:03:36   think the judge gets around that though

01:03:38   like when you say oh you can be tried by

01:03:40   professional juror who was a judge to me

01:03:42   that the terrifying thing about the

01:03:43   judge is that they are one person I feel

01:03:46   like I would almost never want to roll

01:03:48   the dice on a single person because a

01:03:50   single person is too unreliable that's

01:03:52   why you have multiple jurors there you

01:03:55   do actually there are some cases by the

01:03:56   way that can be heard by three judges

01:03:58   okay that's much better

01:03:59   we're splitting hairs now but no no but

01:04:01   that does make a difference if I had to

01:04:03   choose between like a trial by jury and

01:04:06   three judges that is much more of a real

01:04:09   consideration although that does start

01:04:11   getting into against some of the America

01:04:13   specific scary stuff first like but the

01:04:14   judges need to be elected and then it's

01:04:16   like oh god now that's a little

01:04:17   different affair or even appointed but

01:04:19   also I haven't got numbers on this but

01:04:21   I'm almost certain that you get far more

01:04:23   acquittals from juries than you do from

01:04:25   judges so if you

01:04:26   like thinking of being wrongly accused

01:04:29   CGP grey i think you may want to

01:04:31   consider that the jury I think you do

01:04:33   raise a good point that there may be a

01:04:36   thin end of the wedge here which is how

01:04:40   does a professional jury member become

01:04:43   one of those people when you say like

01:04:45   their government to point it I was

01:04:46   saying like oh no but that they wouldn't

01:04:48   be like that it's like ah but obviously

01:04:49   ultimately the legal system in some way

01:04:52   would need to be deciding who is able to

01:04:54   become a professional juror and I

01:04:59   haven't really thought this through I'm

01:05:00   just I'm just thinking this out loud now

01:05:02   but I mean I don't know how much you

01:05:03   know about the UK justice system gray

01:05:05   but one thing they do this doesn't

01:05:08   really apply to you know murder trials

01:05:10   and stuff but you do have volunteer

01:05:13   magistrates through the country and

01:05:15   these are normally people who are like

01:05:16   respected people in good jobs and

01:05:19   they're and they'll volunteer a couple

01:05:20   of days a month to sit in the

01:05:23   magistrate's court and they become just

01:05:25   like a judge doing like high-volume

01:05:28   stuff with people who've you know had

01:05:30   minor run-ins with the law and they have

01:05:32   like a professional little committee

01:05:34   with them that advises them and tells

01:05:36   them how the law works and things they

01:05:37   can do but they sit there and show their

01:05:39   own discretion and and make decisions so

01:05:42   you mean like it like it's a civil court

01:05:43   no it's a proper court like it's a

01:05:45   Criminal Court but it's for more low

01:05:48   stakes infringement I don't know a lot

01:05:50   about it except I know a few people who

01:05:52   do it an old boss of mine at the BBC was

01:05:54   a magistrate for many years so once or

01:05:56   twice a month she would have to go and

01:05:57   do it and she would just sit there and

01:05:59   people would make their case to her and

01:06:02   she would decide whether they got a

01:06:04   rough ride or an easy ride and she had

01:06:06   experts there they'd be like a

01:06:07   magistrate's assistant that would tell

01:06:09   her here's what you can deal with his

01:06:11   what you can do you could sentence up to

01:06:13   this or you could do that but they got

01:06:15   to show the discretion and they were

01:06:16   almost like community judges but I mean

01:06:19   this is for low stakes stuff she wasn't

01:06:21   sitting there deciding whether or not

01:06:22   someone murdered their girlfriend yeah I

01:06:25   don't know I feel like you have

01:06:27   immediately thrown all of these monkey

01:06:28   wrenches into my poorly thought-out

01:06:30   ideas but I still have this emotional

01:06:32   response to what I view as like oh

01:06:34   you're just gonna have 12 randos pulled

01:06:38   off the streets

01:06:39   and they're unfamiliar with the whole

01:06:41   process and because I'm watching the

01:06:43   show about false confessions obviously

01:06:44   my concern is about being manipulated

01:06:46   into convicting someone but then again

01:06:48   like my scales of justice are weighed

01:06:50   very heavily on it's it's far worse to

01:06:54   convict an innocent person than to let a

01:06:56   guilty person go for you by far so

01:06:58   that's where my concern is but

01:07:00   nonetheless their inexperience allows

01:07:03   them to be manipulated by the defense as

01:07:07   well I don't know it's just it seems

01:07:09   like it's just in tremendous advantage

01:07:12   for the jurors not to all be noobs at

01:07:16   the job of handling people's lives I

01:07:18   don't know a way around this yeah I say

01:07:21   you made you feel that we're having to

01:07:23   reinvent the wheel every trial to my

01:07:25   mind the problem is also that you're

01:07:26   having these noobs go up against the

01:07:29   experts and so the trial lawyers on both

01:07:33   sides are able to see how jurors react

01:07:38   to different things over time or

01:07:40   different cases or different ways to

01:07:42   present things I just I feel like it is

01:07:44   extraordinarily asymmetric I just don't

01:07:49   think this is good or Eve even things

01:07:50   like you know my dad's a lawyer

01:07:51   and that basically excludes him from

01:07:54   ever being able to be on a jury ever

01:07:56   like when he's been called in to jury

01:07:57   duty it's like oh you're a lawyer get

01:07:59   out of here like we don't want you on

01:08:01   the jury have you ever been summoned for

01:08:03   jury duty I haven't but I'm gonna in a

01:08:06   bit of a funny situation getting

01:08:07   overseas but I received a summons and

01:08:11   then there's like a form that you fill

01:08:13   out that says lol I live 2,000 miles

01:08:16   away it's not it's not going to happen

01:08:18   I'm not coming back to North Carolina to

01:08:20   sit on a jury have you I never have no I

01:08:23   remember once being in a in a court

01:08:26   covering a trial and there was like a

01:08:28   fire evacuation in the court building

01:08:30   and we had to go out through the jury

01:08:32   room it was so exciting and getting to

01:08:34   go into the jury room and all their

01:08:35   personal stuff was lying around and it

01:08:37   was like oh this is so naughty because

01:08:38   they're so sacred to the jury getting to

01:08:40   go through their room was like a real

01:08:42   treat I imagine it was there and it was

01:08:45   like also often in the lunch break I

01:08:47   would go out into at the markets and get

01:08:49   food and like jurors from cases who I

01:08:51   was covering would be

01:08:53   out getting themselves a hot dog and a

01:08:54   milkshake as well and a bit like at the

01:08:57   airport when you're like really

01:08:58   conscientious about doing the right

01:08:59   thing I would make such an effort to not

01:09:02   look at them or talk to any jurors or be

01:09:03   seen going anywhere near any of them it

01:09:05   was crazy because you're very

01:09:09   responsible very response very

01:09:11   responsible member of the media

01:09:12   unlike in America all the crazy stuff

01:09:14   that can happen where you take a

01:09:15   bewildered guy you put him up through a

01:09:17   perp walk right in front of some cameras

01:09:18   and tell him to apologize to the world

01:09:20   for the thing that he's done it's like

01:09:21   oh absolutely crazy that that kind of

01:09:24   thing can happen in American media with

01:09:25   juries but if I was ever called I mean

01:09:29   of course I would do everything within

01:09:31   my human power to not sit on that jury

01:09:33   the number one thing being is I'd be

01:09:36   like I will disregard all eyewitness

01:09:39   testimony no matter what I'm pretty sure

01:09:41   just that would get me disqualified from

01:09:44   a jury immediately like I will not

01:09:46   listen to any of your eyewitness

01:09:47   testimony I really wouldn't want to be

01:09:49   in a jury because I think I would just

01:09:51   freak out at the idea that like I have

01:09:53   to sit in this little box when they tell

01:09:55   me to sit in the box and I can only take

01:09:56   breaks when they tell me it's time to

01:09:58   take breaks

01:09:59   I feel like now if I want to go to the

01:10:00   bathroom I'm gonna go to the bathroom

01:10:02   and I don't care what you guys are doing

01:10:03   I would make a terrible juror so no I

01:10:05   wouldn't I wouldn't want to be in the

01:10:06   box I would do and say anything to not

01:10:10   be on a jury so I don't think that

01:10:12   that's gonna happen anytime soon there

01:10:14   was a case in Scotland just recently

01:10:16   that I've just caught up on my screen I

01:10:17   was reading about it where it was a one

01:10:20   of those nightmare white-collar criminal

01:10:22   property fraud type trials and the jury

01:10:25   had to sit for 20 months for the case I

01:10:29   mean he might as well be in prison if

01:10:31   that's happening apparently they needed

01:10:32   like counselling and psychological

01:10:34   treatment afterwards to go back to the

01:10:36   real world and because of Scottish law

01:10:38   is really strict about the 12 jurors

01:10:39   thing and there were 12 of them if one

01:10:41   of them left or something the whole

01:10:43   trial would have collapsed so they all

01:10:44   had to like make sure they could see it

01:10:45   through so the trial didn't fall in a

01:10:47   hey this is why I don't want to be on

01:10:48   the jury I would forget it like screw

01:10:52   your trial I'm going home what happened

01:10:54   to those people do any of them have like

01:10:56   did they lose their jobs or like did

01:10:58   they just lose a bunch of money to their

01:11:00   employer I have to pay them all that

01:11:01   time sometimes big chunky a lot of 20

01:11:04   months yeah I know at least in the u.s.

01:11:06   you basically

01:11:06   screw it if you get on a jury there's

01:11:09   some amount of compensation that you get

01:11:10   that is insulting Lelo like here have a

01:11:13   dollar a day I feel like you know what

01:11:15   keep your goddamn dollar don't think

01:11:17   like you're paying me and we're even now

01:11:18   you take this dollar and you shove it up

01:11:21   your ass for me losing a day of my life

01:11:23   so your employer doesn't have to pay but

01:11:25   presumably they can't sack you like you

01:11:26   must be allowed to go back to your job I

01:11:28   hope all right yeah I don't know I don't

01:11:30   know how it works with the work like

01:11:31   that

01:11:31   I don't know but it doesn't sound fun

01:11:33   one last thing though that's again

01:11:37   watching the show just hammered into me

01:11:40   as thoroughly as an idea can be hammered

01:11:42   into a person even someone who is the

01:11:44   son of a lawyer is the idea of just like

01:11:46   the police are not your friends never

01:11:49   talk to the police hmm

01:11:51   ever for any reason it's like the world

01:11:55   shouldn't be this way but it it totally

01:11:59   is and it just makes me feel bad seeing

01:12:03   people get caught up in the idea that

01:12:05   like oh I'm just trying to help the

01:12:07   police because they need to clear me as

01:12:09   the boyfriend so they can move on and

01:12:10   find who the real killer is hmm what is

01:12:13   like that's not really the police's

01:12:15   motivation the police's motivation is to

01:12:17   close this case as fast as possible and

01:12:19   you're sitting right in front get the

01:12:20   clearance up on the board yeah exactly

01:12:22   like you are a file that's a stack of

01:12:26   files that needs to go away

01:12:27   and if I was ever pulled in to talk to

01:12:31   the police about anything it's like I

01:12:33   will say nothing unless my attorney is

01:12:34   here and be like oh we didn't want to

01:12:36   talk to you because the Queen was

01:12:37   assassinated and you were in the crowd

01:12:39   we have you on CCTV we know you didn't

01:12:42   do it we just want to know if you saw

01:12:44   anything that could help us I'd be like

01:12:45   I'm not saying a goddamn word until my

01:12:47   attorney is here I know how you people

01:12:48   work I wonder if it would be any

01:12:50   different than if someone like you

01:12:51   really loved hello had something had

01:12:53   happened to them whether or not you'd be

01:12:55   like more eager to help the police just

01:12:56   out of can't some kind of devotion to

01:12:59   obviously it's different if the person's

01:13:00   died but but say you know someone you

01:13:02   loved was kidnapped and you were

01:13:04   thinking well I've got to just do

01:13:06   everything I can to help the police to

01:13:07   you know get this person back or yeah I

01:13:10   mean I know kidnapping said not pretty

01:13:12   rare but kidnappings are rare but it

01:13:15   puts you in a really difficult position

01:13:16   as the only thing which I think it never

01:13:18   the details of a never

01:13:20   crossed my mind but watching this

01:13:22   documentary it also really solidified is

01:13:24   in every episode it's it's somebody who

01:13:27   has lost a very close loved one right

01:13:30   it's it's a girlfriend or its parents or

01:13:32   it's a child or it's a spouse and it

01:13:35   never really quite occurred to me how

01:13:37   horrible this situation is where it's

01:13:39   like okay you you have lost your wife

01:13:41   and then you're going to spend 16 hours

01:13:46   a day for the next three days being

01:13:49   interrogated by the police while you're

01:13:52   in the middle of the worst emotional

01:13:56   event of your entire life and I think I

01:14:01   just it had never really crossed me the

01:14:03   true horror of that like you're in a

01:14:06   daze but you also have these people who

01:14:09   are just asking you questions about

01:14:11   absolutely everything and you're

01:14:12   obviously the number one suspect of

01:14:14   what's going on it's like it's not bad

01:14:15   enough that you've lost a loved one but

01:14:18   you're also getting like bullied at the

01:14:21   same time that this is going on

01:14:23   obviously the police have to talk to the

01:14:25   people who are the most likely suspects

01:14:27   because when someone dies is like well

01:14:29   let's put that family up on the board

01:14:31   like it's probably one of these people

01:14:33   so I don't know how to resolve that but

01:14:36   it just seems inhumanly cruel to

01:14:40   immediately start questioning someone

01:14:43   when you find out like Oh their

01:14:46   girlfriend has died let's take them to

01:14:48   the station right now to do an interview

01:14:52   I can't imagine talking to anyone under

01:14:56   those circumstances so be like I'm sorry

01:14:58   I need to go curl up in a ball and just

01:15:01   cry for days for a while like you can

01:15:05   call me in a week and maybe I can put

01:15:07   together a coherent sentence like I

01:15:09   can't talk to police officers now it

01:15:11   just seems so cruel but you don't need

01:15:13   to obviously you know that you need to

01:15:14   try and sort out crimes as soon as

01:15:16   possible after they happen before

01:15:18   evidence vanishes but let's put that to

01:15:20   one side because it is it that is an

01:15:21   interesting conflict do you think that

01:15:24   you are being naive to think that you

01:15:28   can get a confession or someone to tell

01:15:30   the truth just with

01:15:32   logic or catching them out in a lie or

01:15:35   do you think like in a real world where

01:15:38   bad people do bad things and then lie

01:15:40   about them that you need to use some

01:15:43   Dark Arts to get to the truth sometimes

01:15:45   and it's unrealistic to expect this sort

01:15:49   of goody-two-shoes fair's fair approach

01:15:52   and when you're dealing with bad people

01:15:53   sometimes a bit of tricking them can get

01:15:55   you to the truth I think that the legal

01:16:00   system is so important that you can't

01:16:04   have it be the system that uses the dark

01:16:06   arts I mean that to me is like okay

01:16:08   professional jurors maybe there's a thin

01:16:10   end of a wedge here where the government

01:16:11   starts appointing the people who are

01:16:12   going to decide who is innocent and who

01:16:14   is not innocent but if you say like oh

01:16:17   the police can use tricks to try to

01:16:20   catch the bad guys I just can never get

01:16:23   behind that because I feel like it

01:16:27   sullies the entire system and also just

01:16:31   my own personal belief here that I just

01:16:32   don't I don't think those tricks are

01:16:35   meaningful because of my disregard of

01:16:39   human memory I don't think it's

01:16:40   meaningful I think it is too easy to get

01:16:43   people to talk about things that they

01:16:46   just remember very poorly even in

01:16:48   trivial ways that documentary that you

01:16:50   had may watch episode 3 I'm sure link to

01:16:52   if people want to watch this specific

01:16:53   one I watch that and obviously there was

01:16:56   no recording of the second day of the

01:16:58   questioning of this guy so I don't who

01:17:00   knows what happened but if we're just

01:17:01   going on what we saw in the documentary

01:17:04   I loved what I saw that policeman doing

01:17:08   was just kind of like building a rapport

01:17:11   even though he's faking and being

01:17:13   insincere and I can't believe the guy

01:17:14   didn't see through it like do you think

01:17:16   it's wrong for a policeman to try and

01:17:17   build a rapport with someone who they

01:17:19   thinks a suspect build up a level of

01:17:22   trust even though it's insincere in the

01:17:24   hope that you get to the truth I think

01:17:26   that's a that's a trickier question have

01:17:29   you happened to see also on Netflix

01:17:32   there's a series which they fixed

01:17:34   analyze series but it's called mine

01:17:35   hunter have you happened to watch I just

01:17:36   finished it last night

01:17:38   yeah so no spoilers for mine hunter for

01:17:41   the listeners but this is a mean plot

01:17:44   device in

01:17:46   Hunter is like building up insincere

01:17:47   rapport yeah criminals the big

01:17:49   difference there is I feel like in that

01:17:54   show the FBI agents are talking to

01:17:56   convicted criminals so I think there's a

01:17:58   big difference when you talk about

01:17:59   someone who has already been convicted

01:18:01   at that point like do you want to build

01:18:03   up a false rapport with them to get

01:18:04   information like whatever I don't have a

01:18:06   lot of problem with that but I do have

01:18:09   much more of a problem when you're

01:18:12   talking about someone who is presumed

01:18:14   innocent someone who is just a suspect

01:18:16   and yeah I have even more of a problem

01:18:20   with it when the rapport that you're

01:18:22   building is all pointing in a particular

01:18:26   direction so the police officer is

01:18:28   saying things like well we all get into

01:18:31   fights with the people we love the most

01:18:32   and he's like well I've never thought

01:18:34   about divorcing my wife but I sure have

01:18:36   thought about strangling her to death

01:18:38   you know what I mean and it's like

01:18:40   that's not building rapport that's how

01:18:44   you start planting ideas in the mind of

01:18:47   someone going through trauma it seems

01:18:50   like it's rapport building and if the

01:18:53   person was guilty maybe it would be

01:18:55   which is also partly why I selected that

01:18:58   episode because I feel like of all the

01:18:59   episodes that is maybe the most

01:19:00   ambiguous one hmm but it's like it's

01:19:03   rapport building but it's rapport

01:19:05   building that's pointing toward

01:19:07   something so that's why I can't go along

01:19:10   with it because it's also a person who

01:19:12   is presumed innocent I mean we discuss

01:19:14   this issue a bit I always feel like you

01:19:16   see it in very black-and-white terms I

01:19:18   don't feel like you sort of see some of

01:19:20   the shades of grey involved but in some

01:19:22   ways I think maybe you're right to be

01:19:25   that way when the stakes are so high and

01:19:26   it's important that a system retains so

01:19:30   much integrity so it's it's it's hard to

01:19:32   argue against you although I think in

01:19:34   practice like I feel like a lot of

01:19:36   crimes might go unsolved but I know

01:19:40   you're kind of you know I'd rather have

01:19:41   ten unsolved crimes than one falsely

01:19:43   imprisoned person but yeah I mean again

01:19:46   this is this is where the criminal

01:19:48   justice system to me is is the most

01:19:49   perfect example of this way I think

01:19:51   about a lot of things in society where

01:19:53   you can just there are outcomes you want

01:19:56   and there are dials that you can turn

01:19:59   on this big machine to try to get the

01:20:01   outcomes that you want but you don't

01:20:04   know exactly how far to turn all of

01:20:07   those dials you don't know where to

01:20:08   precisely tune them you can only have

01:20:12   answers about tuning too far in one

01:20:15   direction or tuning too far in the other

01:20:17   direction and so yeah I'm particularly

01:20:19   with criminal justice I'm always leaning

01:20:21   on the side of if we have to tune too

01:20:24   far in the direction of letting too many

01:20:26   people go that is a vastly preferable

01:20:28   option to convicting innocent people but

01:20:33   there are shades of gray here but I just

01:20:35   I I feel like I can't sign below the

01:20:39   document that says I'm okay with using

01:20:43   Dark Arts and tricks in the pursuit of

01:20:45   justice even if you have the most noble

01:20:49   of police officers behind that pursuit I

01:20:51   hope you don't use any of these

01:20:52   techniques on me when you lull me into

01:20:54   talking about SpaceX and a lot of us

01:20:57   could get myself into trouble but I'm

01:20:59   the interviewer here coming alive you're

01:21:01   the cop you're the cop I uh I could see

01:21:04   why you'd think that Brady tell me more

01:21:05   I'm just digging myself deeper and

01:21:08   deeper yeah can I have an inbox full of

01:21:10   Elon Musk fans now I'm making casual

01:21:13   comments about the commercial nature of

01:21:15   Tesla just unrelated to build rapport to

01:21:18   you baby listeners don't know that we

01:21:22   did discuss the commercial interests of

01:21:25   the world for 20 minutes before we

01:21:26   started recording coz I was trying to

01:21:28   Prime I did like that Falcon heavy stuff

01:21:32   you know I know I know I thought it was

01:21:33   ghosts don't worry the people no hello

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01:23:51   and thanks to Harry's for supporting the

01:23:53   show let's talk about hotmail for sir ok

01:23:59   let's talk about a hotmail okay I

01:24:01   actually have a lot of thoughts about

01:24:02   hotmail ok I know I thought you might I

01:24:04   thought you might so there was a story

01:24:08   going around the other day about

01:24:09   insurance companies and profiling they

01:24:12   were using to set people's insurance

01:24:14   rates and I think the original story was

01:24:16   if people had a name that sounded though

01:24:18   of a certain ethnicity they were having

01:24:20   higher insurance rates set and that was

01:24:23   obviously considered quite unfair and by

01:24:25   most people but

01:24:26   in the second day as the story rolled on

01:24:28   it emerged that insurance companies were

01:24:31   setting higher rates for people who were

01:24:33   using hot mail addresses than other

01:24:35   words they thought if you use hotmail

01:24:39   you're obviously a greater insurance

01:24:40   risk and you would have to pay higher

01:24:42   premiums to insure you like car

01:24:44   insurance or is just like an insurance

01:24:46   company in general if it's car insurance

01:24:48   I have a theory about this think it was

01:24:50   car insurance in the story I read what

01:24:53   do you think about that profiling by a

01:24:55   choice of email sex this is kind of

01:24:58   delightful because I think these stories

01:25:00   come up with insurance okay isn't it

01:25:04   this might be the most boring thing to

01:25:06   ever say but I think it is fascinating

01:25:09   the constraints that we want to put on

01:25:13   insurance companies versus their

01:25:16   actuarial knowledge of the world right

01:25:19   so if anybody has accurate actuarial

01:25:23   knowledge of the world it is insurance

01:25:27   companies they will know correlations

01:25:30   and expenses that is their their whole

01:25:32   job but then there is this intersection

01:25:36   where insurance companies run into the

01:25:38   real world where we say like oh no no oh

01:25:40   no no insurance company this correlation

01:25:43   is not okay you can't use this and I

01:25:48   feel like insurance companies are just

01:25:50   at this this real intersection of these

01:25:53   two things where's like they can know

01:25:55   things but we forced them to pretend

01:25:58   like they don't know things well I

01:26:00   thought was it will get to a point where

01:26:02   they're no longer like sharing risks

01:26:03   right well yeah if they become old

01:26:05   knowing insurance ceases to be insurance

01:26:07   it just becomes paying first yeah but

01:26:09   that's exactly like that is the super

01:26:10   fascinating thing right because the only

01:26:13   reason insurance exists is because they

01:26:15   don't know everything but as their

01:26:18   knowledge increases you are 100% right

01:26:22   that the insurance company just trends

01:26:25   toward the cost of the thing right and

01:26:27   then it's like wait there's no business

01:26:28   here at all right so is like insurance

01:26:31   companies can only exist in a world that

01:26:32   has some amount of in certainty and then

01:26:35   we want to enforce uncertainty on them

01:26:39   as well

01:26:40   like the hotmail thing my total guests

01:26:42   here for car insurance is that I'd be

01:26:44   willing to bet that hotmail users trend

01:26:46   much older on average than the general

01:26:50   population and I'm gonna say that much

01:26:53   older people are going to have higher

01:26:55   rates of car accidents than the general

01:26:57   that's not true I think older people get

01:26:59   cheaper car insurance I think it's young

01:27:02   21 year old males that are most likely

01:27:04   to wrap their car around a tree and that

01:27:07   to me is the prime example of do you

01:27:09   allow an insurance company to do this is

01:27:11   the teenage boy driving a car if a car

01:27:14   is going to be destroyed a teenage boy

01:27:16   is going to do it and this is legal or

01:27:19   not legal in various jurisdictions to

01:27:21   say something like can you charge a

01:27:23   teenage boy higher car insurance and

01:27:27   some places say yes some places say no I

01:27:30   was just suspecting that you would also

01:27:32   have a higher incidence of accident for

01:27:35   older drivers I'm at least thinking of

01:27:39   places in America where I'm always

01:27:40   horrified by people who are like wildly

01:27:44   unqualified to be drivers who still have

01:27:46   driver's licenses that is just my theory

01:27:49   like what might hotmail be correlated

01:27:51   with I mean you probably are right

01:27:53   because you usually are but that

01:27:54   wouldn't have been my guess I hadn't

01:27:55   thought of hotmail users as being older

01:27:57   I can see why you would say that but I

01:27:59   thought it would be more the case that

01:28:01   they were figuring hotmail users were

01:28:03   less professional and therefore maybe

01:28:07   less likely to be very responsible big

01:28:11   yeah or just like you know anyone who's

01:28:13   using hotmail has obviously made poor

01:28:15   decisions in their life so they're going

01:28:17   to make poor decisions on the road could

01:28:18   also just be yes I had it since you're a

01:28:26   boy great yeah no so I've just kept it

01:28:28   so I do have my hotmail account I do

01:28:30   have other I do have numerous other no

01:28:33   of course you do but don't use that when

01:28:34   you're applying for your insurance right

01:28:36   that's that's what you don't want to do

01:28:37   this is another dial of society that I

01:28:40   don't really know how to adjust because

01:28:42   in in general I feel like I'm okay with

01:28:44   insurance companies charging different

01:28:45   rates to different people but there

01:28:49   would come a point where it's simply not

01:28:51   insurance anymore if you just know too

01:28:53   much about

01:28:54   everybody so that like there's going to

01:28:56   need to be something like that but I

01:28:57   think the hotmail thing is funny and I

01:29:00   personally don't have any problem with

01:29:02   it whatsoever I don't know how people

01:29:05   would react to this but I suspect that

01:29:06   there are going to be vastly more and

01:29:09   more things like this that come to light

01:29:12   through big data analysis and through

01:29:14   through this kind of thing where some of

01:29:18   my favorite examples of this are

01:29:19   innocuous questions you can ask people

01:29:23   that will very rapidly zero in on things

01:29:28   like who do they vote for in the last

01:29:30   election and so you ask people questions

01:29:32   like do you like dogs better than cats

01:29:35   and questions like that that seem like

01:29:38   they have nothing to do with anything

01:29:39   and if you are picking really well

01:29:43   chosen questions that have been

01:29:45   developed from enormous databases of

01:29:48   people's preferences you can

01:29:51   surprisingly quickly zero in with a very

01:29:54   high confidence interval on what did a

01:29:57   person vote for in the previous election

01:29:58   or all these kinds of things where again

01:30:00   like people imagine that they are vastly

01:30:03   different from other people but then

01:30:04   they're not like there are patterns that

01:30:06   exist here

01:30:06   you know how they traditionally have

01:30:08   some problems with political polling

01:30:09   because people aren't always honest

01:30:12   about who they vote for do you think it

01:30:13   will ever get to a stage where those

01:30:15   companies will ring people up and say do

01:30:18   you like dogs do you like hamburgers

01:30:20   where do you go on holiday and not even

01:30:22   ask you who you voted for and say thank

01:30:24   you very much and say okay Democrat

01:30:26   voter well I wonder if it'll ever get to

01:30:28   that point where they just don't trust

01:30:29   your answer to who do you vote for and

01:30:31   they use the other stuff to get to the

01:30:33   truth instead I haven't seen something

01:30:35   like that I have some come across some

01:30:37   research which does things like using

01:30:40   similar methods to estimate voter

01:30:44   dishonesty right where you are looking

01:30:48   at some information that you can gather

01:30:49   about a person and then looking at their

01:30:51   actual response and you can't know

01:30:55   obviously perfectly but you can put

01:30:58   higher or lower confidence intervals on

01:31:00   was this person reporting the truth and

01:31:04   it becomes very quickly very unlikely or

01:31:07   very likely if you can gather enough

01:31:10   information on this kind of thing so I

01:31:12   do kind of think that that's the case I

01:31:14   mean again this is this is much more an

01:31:16   issue in the United States where you

01:31:18   have to motivate people to go vote but

01:31:22   this is this is a real science now of

01:31:24   trying to drill down to very very

01:31:28   particular individual people and knowing

01:31:30   like when do you want to send them stuff

01:31:32   in the mail to try to motivate them to

01:31:34   vote and you can do that because you're

01:31:37   highly confident about who they will

01:31:40   vote for with the information that

01:31:42   you're sending so I think that is kind

01:31:44   of a thing already but either way I

01:31:46   think insurance companies are gonna be

01:31:48   at the forefront of this because they

01:31:49   they are the ones who are at the

01:31:52   bleeding edge of being able to extract

01:31:55   value from knowing more and more about

01:31:59   what data represents about a person's

01:32:02   actions in the world

01:32:02   actions in the world

00:00:00   I like this podcast it's pretty cool and

00:00:03   if you're someone who met someone who

00:00:06   knows Brady I can confirm this podcast

00:00:09   is legit

00:00:10   Brady and gray have influenced

00:00:12   real-world events such as the New

00:00:14   Zealand flag referendum and a poll on

00:00:16   some radio website or something about

00:00:18   top audio personalities so rest assured

00:00:21   reader this podcast is legit five stars

00:00:27   we've been getting a lot of reviews

00:00:29   Brady what was that you've met someone

00:00:32   who knows someone who I don't even get

00:00:34   that that was your call Brady you wanted

00:00:37   like acquaintances that your wife was

00:00:40   talking to when hello internet was

00:00:42   mentioned in reference to you you wanted

00:00:44   that person when they went to go look up

00:00:46   the reviews on iTunes to see that the

00:00:48   podcast was a big deal I've be crated

00:00:51   back to myself this is the danger of

00:00:53   this podcast sometimes when I make

00:00:54   people oh this and they'll say some line

00:00:56   at me like and I'll be like what are you

00:00:58   talking about but you said that the

00:01:01   things I say on the show you're missing

00:01:03   out on your own in jokes I say a lot of

00:01:05   rubbish I can't remember all of it you

00:01:07   asked for something Brady and to quote

00:01:10   Henry is cool one on iTunes yep five

00:01:14   stars for Brady so he looks more popular

00:01:16   five stars

00:01:17   I appreciate the five stars yeah we have

00:01:20   a ton of reviews they're very fun to

00:01:22   read through and there was a very

00:01:24   consistent theme through all of them

00:01:26   have a hello internet reviewed numbers

00:01:28   going like up high enough you know has

00:01:30   there been a noticeable bump well I mean

00:01:32   Brady we're trying to quench your thirst

00:01:35   for recognition we're trying to feed

00:01:38   your Hannity here I guess the question

00:01:40   really it's not for me to answer if the

00:01:44   reviews are enough I don't know if there

00:01:46   is any number of reviews that will be

00:01:49   enough for you look great I will go

00:01:53   along with being stitched up like this

00:01:54   and you know because I deserve oh yes

00:01:56   yes dude stuff I'm pulling this just out

00:01:58   of the air I'm making up things but if

00:02:04   they put it in the right context like I

00:02:06   didn't know the number right I don't

00:02:08   know the number now it occurred to me

00:02:11   that if anyone ever goes

00:02:13   and looks checks will we look like we

00:02:17   know what we're doing right without even

00:02:19   having looked myself I just said if you

00:02:20   haven't left a review go and do it

00:02:23   because it'll look good for us like I'm

00:02:25   not there like sitting there watching a

00:02:27   counter and like keeping a notebook of

00:02:29   the scores and ringing people up and

00:02:31   saying have you looked at my reviews

00:02:32   right it just occurred to me right not

00:02:34   like the Radio Times contest right where

00:02:36   that was occurring right no this is

00:02:38   totally different that kind of got a bit

00:02:40   out of control but I don't think that

00:02:41   was my fault either that was a perfect

00:02:43   storm that was nobody's fault I mean you

00:02:45   can say what you want Brady

00:02:46   but according to Raven ho 27 Brady's

00:02:50   vanity knows no bounds five stars

00:02:53   I'm just telling you what I'm reading

00:02:55   here in black and white so when we were

00:02:57   having the discussion last time there

00:02:58   was a thing which I did not realize

00:03:00   which is that iTunes does the counting

00:03:04   of reviews separately for every country

00:03:07   or I feel like that's a bit of a strange

00:03:10   decision to make I don't quite

00:03:13   understand why iTunes would say that Oh

00:03:15   UK reviews are going to be in a

00:03:17   different group than us reviews I don't

00:03:19   quite understand that they do that

00:03:21   across the whole platform great cuz when

00:03:22   I go and look at what the top podcasts

00:03:24   are it's always like 95,000 BBC podcasts

00:03:28   which I'll come to in another episode

00:03:29   sometime because I have thoughts about

00:03:30   that and then there's like a couple of

00:03:32   American ones and then that's it it's

00:03:34   like does anyone else in the world make

00:03:36   podcasts other than the baby say whereas

00:03:38   I'm sure in America it's not completely

00:03:40   dominated by the baby season I can get

00:03:43   behind the idea of regional

00:03:45   recommendations waiting a bit of white

00:03:48   yeah a bit of waiting so when we were

00:03:49   talking about having whatever it was

00:03:51   like 600 views I think we were both

00:03:53   looking at the iTunes U K store and so

00:03:57   we're now closing in on like 1,100 of

00:04:00   views on the U case or the US store

00:04:03   though as you might imagine that's where

00:04:06   the big explosion occurred because it

00:04:08   seems like most of our listeners are in

00:04:09   America or at least the plurality of

00:04:12   listeners are in America and we went

00:04:14   from something like I think it was

00:04:15   somewhere like 2000 reviews to 4333

00:04:21   reviews on the US store I feel like

00:04:23   that's quite a bump it's such a bump

00:04:25   that

00:04:26   while I am making fun of you for your

00:04:28   vanity that bump makes it feel like

00:04:31   10,000 is within our grasp like it's a

00:04:33   thing that is possible

00:04:35   Harry's : for the numbers now hey I'm

00:04:37   just saying look before it never really

00:04:40   crossed my mind but now it's like oh I

00:04:43   can see it on the horizon it's not close

00:04:46   but it's within our grasp Brady so I'm

00:04:50   looking at this 4,000 number and I am

00:04:52   finding myself thinking this needs to

00:04:54   get to 10,000 I said 10,000 as a joke

00:04:57   but it's a joke that has lodged itself

00:04:59   in my mind so I can see that like we're

00:05:02   close there we're close I would be

00:05:03   willing to bet if you summed up all of

00:05:07   the different country stores we actually

00:05:10   probably do have 10,000 are pretty close

00:05:12   to 10,000 but I feel like that doesn't

00:05:14   count if your wife's friends

00:05:17   acquaintances are looking up the show

00:05:18   they're not going to sum it up that's

00:05:20   not how that works I would love to see

00:05:22   it actually hit 10,000 on at least one

00:05:24   of the stores probably the US store I

00:05:26   feel like right if we can get to 10,000

00:05:28   in the UK it'll be like we've cracked

00:05:29   America that's like every overseas

00:05:31   entertainers dream isn't it you know

00:05:33   yeah sure we've done well here in the

00:05:35   colonies in that but if we can crack

00:05:37   America we can make it anywhere

00:05:40   meanwhile we have eight reviews in the

00:05:42   de poele store

00:05:43   I'll take her I'll take the I hope we're

00:05:44   doing well in the pollen I hope you have

00:05:45   a high five star rating over there I was

00:05:47   making that up I haven't like set up a

00:05:49   VPN hidden the poll to see what I mean

00:05:52   great lady you can on iTunes you can

00:05:54   scroll down to the very bottom and click

00:05:55   the little flag and then you can switch

00:05:57   to a different country to try to see how

00:05:58   you're doing in different spots all

00:06:00   right but anyway so yes I have found it

00:06:02   interesting the reviews make me laugh

00:06:04   people are always funny on the internet

00:06:05   but aside from the reviews mocking your

00:06:08   vanity there was also a very consistent

00:06:10   theme which is people saying like I love

00:06:13   this podcast but it's really hard to

00:06:15   describe why I have no ability to

00:06:18   describe why I like the show and why I

00:06:20   listen to it but I really like it five

00:06:22   stars so I enjoyed those as well I

00:06:24   sympathize with you people because I

00:06:26   have the same problem every time I tell

00:06:28   someone I'd do a podcast oh I do a

00:06:30   podcast oh what's a code and then I've

00:06:32   got a let's say hello internet which I'm

00:06:34   a bit embarrassed about and they like

00:06:35   are really oh what's that about and then

00:06:38   I'm like

00:06:39   it's kind of like nerdy stuff and flags

00:06:43   I feel like we've lured a lot of like

00:06:45   vexillology people in under false

00:06:47   pretenses and we haven't been delivering

00:06:49   lately I think we need a flag bonanza

00:06:52   sometime soon I'll see what we can do

00:06:54   there but in the meantime I couldn't

00:06:57   help but check and just load it up in

00:06:58   Nepal store yeah all right what are we

00:07:03   on let me guess

00:07:04   I'm gonna go with two you are exactly

00:07:09   right two reviews in the fall but the

00:07:15   store is listing us as not having

00:07:17   received enough ratings to display an

00:07:19   average for this podcast so get on it

00:07:21   Nepalese did they write anything one

00:07:24   review is from Nepal and then they put

00:07:27   the Nepal flag emoji

00:07:28   which I feel like is his on point not

00:07:30   realizing that their review would only

00:07:32   be displayed in Nepal Nepal we need to

00:07:35   let's aim for a target in Nepal of eight

00:07:38   thousand eight hundred years because

00:07:40   there's the high of Mount Everest in

00:07:42   meters I can't any think we're gonna get

00:07:43   past 29,000 which would be in fate for

00:07:45   it now Freddie that's that's insanity

00:07:47   don't ask for unreasonable goals don't

00:07:49   do that

00:07:50   just the reasonable goals the reason

00:07:51   we're goals on the horizon so close the

00:07:57   last time Brady we were discussing the

00:07:59   airline safety videos and since that

00:08:02   episode went up I discovered that it is

00:08:04   still Comic Relief season in British

00:08:08   Airways comic relief meaning they're

00:08:10   taking a break from anything funny I got

00:08:12   to see the video twice the space of like

00:08:14   eight hours because I ended up flying

00:08:16   out to the continent and back on the

00:08:19   same day and I was like oh my god I

00:08:20   can't believe I can't believe this like

00:08:21   Here I am

00:08:22   and as I oh god it's so awful I took a

00:08:25   little video I put up on Twitter Comic

00:08:27   Relief season maybe it never ends well

00:08:29   it's not even Comic Relief year this

00:08:31   year so they're clearly not bounded by

00:08:32   any season here they're just going for I

00:08:35   really resent that video as like the

00:08:37   kids and watching it anymore but anyway

00:08:39   the biggest universal piece of feedback

00:08:41   that I received from people is hey why

00:08:44   are you watching this anyway why don't

00:08:45   you just put on your headphones like a

00:08:46   normal person and not not paying

00:08:48   attention to this hmm you know what

00:08:50   that's an excellent point this is

00:08:52   one of these moments where I realized

00:08:55   that there is something that I have not

00:08:56   really weighted in my life which is as I

00:09:01   have mentioned on the show my mom was a

00:09:03   flight attendant for many many many

00:09:04   years and like because of that I always

00:09:08   felt like when the flight attendants are

00:09:11   doing the safety demonstration you

00:09:14   should pay attention because it's rude

00:09:16   not to pay attention I also feel like I

00:09:19   something I could be told off for like

00:09:20   because being at airports and Airlines

00:09:22   is always a time of like we've talked

00:09:24   about before you're like hyper

00:09:25   conscientious mmm you answer all the

00:09:28   questions you know how have you did you

00:09:29   pack any scissors no I didn't you were

00:09:31   very deliberate yeah and I feel like if

00:09:33   I don't watch the safety video I'm doing

00:09:35   something wrong and they could like

00:09:36   throw me off the plane or or worse yet

00:09:38   tell me off in front of other people hmm

00:09:40   so I feel like I kind of deliberately

00:09:43   would take off my headphones and watch

00:09:44   the video just to be like bit of a goody

00:09:46   two-shoes and show you the it fly

00:09:47   attendants that yes I'm doing what I'm

00:09:49   supposed to do I'm a good person yeah

00:09:51   there is definitely a part of that

00:09:52   there's like such a different mindset

00:09:54   when you're at airports and when you're

00:09:56   flying it's like you're a different

00:09:57   person

00:09:57   any other there is a deliberateness and

00:10:01   showing that like I'm a person who's

00:10:03   paying attention yeah you want to be

00:10:05   sane to do the right thing right I'm in

00:10:07   the exit row and I'm not a person that

00:10:09   you have to worry about flight attendant

00:10:11   I'm a reasonable person I'm not gonna

00:10:12   cause any problems here I also realized

00:10:15   that a transfer had happened in my mind

00:10:18   that when I was a kid and growing up and

00:10:21   if I was on an airplane with my parents

00:10:23   you know my mom would like we take out

00:10:25   the safety card and she look we know

00:10:27   let's look at where the exits are let's

00:10:28   make sure you recognize visually where

00:10:29   the exits are because as she used to

00:10:32   always say if you like if this plane is

00:10:33   going down my son is going to survive

00:10:36   right he's gonna know where the exits

00:10:38   are he's gonna get out of this and it's

00:10:40   like okay yeah now if the planes going

00:10:41   down I'm gonna make sure I'm not one of

00:10:43   the people who dies on this plane and

00:10:44   then that's also just paying attention

00:10:46   to the flight attendants during the

00:10:47   safety demonstration but they were

00:10:50   always people when I was a kid and I

00:10:55   never really thought about it but there

00:10:57   has been this very slow very gradual

00:11:00   transition over time too

00:11:03   the frequency of getting a safety

00:11:05   demonstration from an actual human going

00:11:07   down and the probability of watching a

00:11:09   video going up even on relatively small

00:11:13   planes where it's been the longer

00:11:15   holdout that there's a person doing the

00:11:17   safety demonstration even on the smaller

00:11:19   planes now it's very very likely that

00:11:20   you're going to be watching an actual

00:11:22   video and somehow this transition

00:11:24   happened so slowly and gradually that I

00:11:28   feel like the respect that I felt I

00:11:30   needed to accord a human being

00:11:32   transferred to the machine that's just

00:11:35   showing me this stupid comedy video

00:11:38   that's why the safety videos have

00:11:40   bothered me is because I've always felt

00:11:41   like I need to watch this out of some

00:11:43   kind of respect but I don't think I do

00:11:45   anymore

00:11:46   especially not if they're going to be

00:11:48   propagandizing me with ten thousand

00:11:50   viewings of the same unfunny thing I

00:11:52   feel like you know what safety video

00:11:53   that doesn't have specifics about this

00:11:55   airplane anyway I don't need to watch

00:11:57   you I don't need to pay attention and I

00:11:59   think if the flight attendant is just

00:12:01   going to think worse of me because I put

00:12:03   my headphones on when I don't want to

00:12:05   watch the safety video I think I'm just

00:12:06   gonna eat that in terms of social

00:12:08   respectability I think that's that's

00:12:10   what's gonna happen going forward that

00:12:12   observation you makes interesting though

00:12:13   isn't it because even when they show

00:12:16   safety videos now on most of the planes

00:12:18   I've been on the flight attendants will

00:12:20   still sort of stand in the corridor and

00:12:22   they might wave their arms once or twice

00:12:24   in the general direction of an excerpt

00:12:26   but they always seem to be sort of

00:12:27   standing there unnecessarily

00:12:29   maybe that's why they're standing there

00:12:31   because they're tapping into that old

00:12:33   emotion that if someone's standing there

00:12:35   like if they're making the effort you

00:12:37   have to make the effort and if they just

00:12:38   went about their business and made

00:12:40   coffee and sat down and you know checked

00:12:43   their hair in the mirror you wouldn't

00:12:44   watch the video but because they are

00:12:46   standing there and they're making the

00:12:47   effort you make the effort

00:12:49   it's probably like a rule I bet that

00:12:51   they do have to stand there even then

00:12:53   the number of things that the flight

00:12:54   attendants are actually doing has

00:12:56   dramatically decreased oh yeah or maybe

00:12:59   the one of their jobs is to make sure

00:13:00   people are watching and that's a good

00:13:01   place to do it from that's why they

00:13:03   stand there they must have to stand

00:13:04   there for a reason I mean the reason is

00:13:06   not to tell off people with headphones

00:13:07   on because they certainly don't then I'm

00:13:10   the only sucker sitting there watching

00:13:12   the safety video and thinking how God

00:13:14   not again don't make me watch the joke

00:13:16   about the sea

00:13:17   belt one more time they don't tell you

00:13:19   off if you're wearing your headphones so

00:13:20   I don't know what you're listening to

00:13:21   you could be listening to that too yes

00:13:23   I'm sure that's what I'm doing as I'm

00:13:25   looking at my iPad with my headphones on

00:13:27   and clearly writing stuff on the screen

00:13:30   oh yes I'm I'm making notes on the

00:13:32   safety video that's that's what I'm

00:13:33   doing right now I'm certainly not doing

00:13:35   my crash notes I do just want to be

00:13:40   clear though that even though I am going

00:13:42   to pay less attention to the safety

00:13:43   videos in the future I reserve the right

00:13:45   to complain about safety videos in the

00:13:46   future oh yeah reserving the right to

00:13:49   complain is like the hello Internet my

00:13:53   motto yeah this is the hello Internet

00:13:55   subtitle well it sounds like it's time

00:13:57   to talk about spy sex then hello

00:14:01   Internet

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00:15:45   saving freelancers so much time I'm so

00:15:49   not looking forward to this

00:15:50   why not breathing because although I

00:15:53   will battle on and will not cave to the

00:15:56   cheer pressure mm-hmm I know I'm gonna

00:15:58   get okay you know you're waiting in to a

00:16:00   forest of to your pressure I know how

00:16:02   people feel about SpaceX and they're

00:16:03   starting to not like if I say anything

00:16:06   negative more than they used to so just

00:16:09   to put it in context at the time of

00:16:11   recording it's just a day actually I

00:16:13   think since SpaceX had this historic

00:16:16   historic moment for the company where

00:16:19   they did their first launch of the

00:16:21   so-called Falcon Heavy which is the more

00:16:24   powerful rocket which can throw things

00:16:26   further out into space and it's a big

00:16:28   milestone in the efforts to you know get

00:16:31   to Mars because you're going to need

00:16:32   these bigger rockets to get beyond Earth

00:16:34   orbit yeah my understanding is that this

00:16:36   is like a cargo rocket that's the idea

00:16:38   of it is it's it's for transporting a

00:16:41   non-trivial amount of stuff into space

00:16:43   yeah I imagine it what can also probably

00:16:45   transport manned craft I don't know

00:16:49   where exactly where that's heading but

00:16:50   what they had in at this time of course

00:16:51   was this Tesla Roadster car which

00:16:54   resulted in quite a substantial amount

00:16:56   of publicity they used Elon Musk's red

00:16:59   car with a mannequin astronaut at the

00:17:01   wheel as like their test payload mm-hmm

00:17:04   and it was all very successful so how am

00:17:07   I gonna do this gray do I get my gripes

00:17:09   out the way first or do i do them last

00:17:11   or do we go chronological or oh I wasn't

00:17:14   going to watch this live I was aware it

00:17:17   was happening because of Twitter but I

00:17:18   was not paying much attention and I

00:17:20   actually got a phone call from Duke of

00:17:23   Venezuela and he said are you watching

00:17:26   are you gonna watch it so I said alright

00:17:27   I'll watch oh and I watched him he

00:17:30   didn't call me no I totally missed out

00:17:32   on this because I was busy watching a

00:17:33   chick flick at the time I really didn't

00:17:35   have any idea well I was in the bath

00:17:38   when he code so I can top that

00:17:42   by anyway so I watched up I watched the

00:17:45   livestream along with all the other

00:17:48   SpaceX diehards and the rest of the

00:17:50   world and so I'm willing to talk about

00:17:52   on hello Internet if you were because

00:17:54   you have watched as well now gray at my

00:17:56   request haven't you but lately it's been

00:17:58   a very busy week but yes you sent me the

00:18:00   video you told me the relevant sections

00:18:03   to watch and so I I have seen the the

00:18:06   take off to reveal and the landing part

00:18:10   of the of the launch mera yet so let me

00:18:14   say when people criticize things that

00:18:15   doesn't mean they don't necessarily like

00:18:17   it gray and I criticize Star Wars all

00:18:19   day long but where Star Wars fans mm-hmm

00:18:22   so just because I say negative things

00:18:24   you know that just happens you know

00:18:26   that's just part of being a critic right

00:18:30   which is what we sometimes do but my

00:18:33   overall feeling watching the launch was

00:18:36   one of very great excitement more than I

00:18:40   would have expected partly maybe because

00:18:42   it was live and I knew you know

00:18:43   something could go wrong and I felt

00:18:45   myself really really hoping nothing

00:18:46   would go wrong mm-hmm

00:18:48   which is you know nice in itself and

00:18:50   also for the first time I was sort of

00:18:54   thinking do you know what we might

00:18:56   actually go like to Mars and stuff while

00:18:58   I'm still alive that's a very exciting

00:19:01   feeling mm-hmm so I was very excited by

00:19:05   it I thought it it looked fantastic

00:19:07   they're getting so good at covering

00:19:09   these things now and coverage has

00:19:10   improved so much that of course it's

00:19:12   gonna look fantastic but you know the

00:19:14   shots were good and the tracking shots

00:19:15   were good the landing of the two

00:19:18   boosters when they came back down like

00:19:20   in sync and landed was remarkable I

00:19:22   don't think that will ever get old the

00:19:24   sight of those boosters landing like a

00:19:26   couple of newborn giraffes trying to

00:19:28   walk on ice and you think surely those

00:19:30   things are gonna fall over and they

00:19:32   stuck it which was amazing I know the

00:19:33   one out to sea had a big smash and

00:19:36   didn't land properly but I think that is

00:19:38   a fantastic looking thing and I think

00:19:40   that's becoming the new kind of iconic

00:19:41   image of launchers like in the days of

00:19:44   Saturn the iconic shot was always you

00:19:46   know that one with us like a camera on

00:19:47   the on the gantry and you're really

00:19:50   close to the rocket and you'd always see

00:19:51   the fire and the ice falling off and

00:19:53   you'd see us a go past I know the exact

00:19:55   shot

00:19:55   you're talking about that is that that

00:19:57   is the iconic we're flying in a space

00:19:59   yeah funnily enough I think the iconic

00:20:02   shot now is those are those boosters

00:20:03   landing which is funny because it's not

00:20:05   the launch but I agree that that is

00:20:07   really impressive and it's way more

00:20:11   impressive than the launch yeah I found

00:20:15   watching the launch much more

00:20:17   interesting than I expected

00:20:20   it's one of those things where I don't

00:20:21   really have any sense of scale like I

00:20:23   don't actually understand what is the

00:20:26   size of this compared to like a Saturn 5

00:20:28   rocket I don't understand but on the

00:20:31   video it just looks huge and it looks

00:20:33   powerful with all of those boosters it

00:20:36   should look like a hell of a thing

00:20:37   taking off but I would say watching the

00:20:40   two boosters then return to Earth and

00:20:43   land vertically simultaneously I mean it

00:20:46   literally gave me chills I thought like

00:20:48   that is just such a crazy technological

00:20:53   achievement that it's it's just

00:20:55   impossible to fathom

00:20:57   obviously the launch of the payload is

00:21:01   the part that really matters here but

00:21:03   the booster landing is incredible and

00:21:06   it's it's a thing that in our previous

00:21:09   conversations about SpaceX I feel like I

00:21:11   didn't really understand at that point

00:21:12   in time and this one was like wow that

00:21:14   is amazing to see I don't get all

00:21:16   excited about it because I think oh wow

00:21:18   this is gonna make space travel cheaper

00:21:19   like that's just boring accounting the

00:21:22   thing that about it that I'm amazed by

00:21:24   is just how awesome it looks like it

00:21:25   just looks like made up so good on them

00:21:28   but just one last thing about the launch

00:21:30   and the coverage of the launch that I

00:21:32   watched and this is where I will upset

00:21:35   some people

00:21:35   the editorial decision that was made to

00:21:39   give so much prominence to the cheering

00:21:42   and hollering of the SpaceX employees

00:21:47   who were watching this happen which made

00:21:49   it feel more like a sporting event than

00:21:52   a scientific moment or an engineering

00:21:54   moment and I'm not opposed to them

00:21:55   getting excited and cheering and like a

00:21:58   lot of people said to me ah it added to

00:22:01   the drama and I think a little bit of it

00:22:03   maybe would have added to the drama

00:22:05   cutting to them occasionally or showing

00:22:06   them but I thought it was

00:22:09   too much for me it was laid on too thick

00:22:11   they were carrying on like a bunch of

00:22:13   frat boys and from the shots they showed

00:22:15   they were mainly boys so I don't feel

00:22:17   bad saying that they were carrying on

00:22:19   like pork chops at one point I heard

00:22:22   them go spook spook spooks like they

00:22:26   were superbowl people drinking from a

00:22:29   keg before the game for me it was like

00:22:32   it trampled all over the moment and it

00:22:35   wasn't like a bit of like controlled

00:22:37   excitement where the cool heads of the

00:22:39   of the engineers were saying come on

00:22:41   everyone let's come down I know you're

00:22:42   excited but this is like this is serious

00:22:44   business here

00:22:44   it was just like hollering and whooping

00:22:47   and no I thought it was too much and it

00:22:50   was an editorial decision because they

00:22:52   deliberately injected it all the way

00:22:54   through and they were cheering for every

00:22:56   single step that happened which you know

00:22:57   because they're engineers I get that

00:22:59   they're excited and each step was

00:23:00   another milestone for them okay we've

00:23:02   now gone to full electronic control

00:23:04   inside the rocket like come on man this

00:23:10   is like this is undignified

00:23:12   you're such a party pooper I'm not

00:23:18   objecting to their excitement and a

00:23:20   little bit of it it was very American

00:23:22   and it trampled all over the moment for

00:23:25   me and I know how much that upsets

00:23:27   people because it's all about the

00:23:28   employees and they had their names

00:23:30   written on the on the rocket and they're

00:23:32   the heroes of the day but I don't think

00:23:34   it was done with a very good Sensibility

00:23:36   I also would love to know where their

00:23:40   contingency was if the rocket had blown

00:23:42   up like were they going to cut that fade

00:23:44   or were they still going to show those

00:23:45   people then fall in a heap I'd love to

00:23:47   know what the plan was but we'll never

00:23:49   know because thankfully it didn't blow

00:23:51   up yes thankfully it didn't blow up

00:23:52   Brady you like space exploration much

00:23:55   better when it's boring guys and ties in

00:23:58   Houston not finding a proxy nuclear war

00:24:01   with the Soviet Union oh well I mean

00:24:05   obviously I'm a real fan of it but like

00:24:07   I love the dignity of then they were

00:24:10   bottling it up because they knew they

00:24:11   had a job to do and when they got

00:24:13   excited they be told hang on don't be

00:24:15   excited there's more to come come on

00:24:16   well we're professionals we're

00:24:18   scientists were engineers we know the

00:24:19   risks here and I know these people

00:24:21   weren't like on shift

00:24:22   I was gonna say I don't think this was

00:24:24   like the people in the night crew yeah

00:24:27   bunch of people who were standing around

00:24:29   like it looked like engineers who had

00:24:31   worked on the thing yeah and and it's

00:24:33   great that they were made so much a part

00:24:34   of it I just thought I don't know they

00:24:37   were turned up to lay out they was laid

00:24:39   on too thick and it was a bit like can

00:24:41   everyone just shut up for a minute I'm

00:24:42   trying to hear what's going on and like

00:24:44   I don't think they got the balance right

00:24:46   of that part of the broadcast and here

00:24:48   we're just talking about cosmetics of

00:24:49   course this is just the broadcast this

00:24:51   has got nothing to do with the

00:24:53   accomplishment or the fate and yes I

00:24:55   know they're happy and I know they're

00:24:57   proud and I know they're responsible and

00:24:58   I know all that stuff but I'm not the

00:25:01   only one who thought that by the way

00:25:02   what did you think you watched it what

00:25:04   did you think I'm laughing because I had

00:25:06   a bit of a different reaction I was

00:25:07   aware that there was a ton of cheering

00:25:10   and that's obviously like an editorial

00:25:12   decision

00:25:12   I didn't mind because I do think it

00:25:15   makes it more exciting to watch than if

00:25:18   they just had the audio feed from

00:25:20   Mission Control and you were hearing the

00:25:22   the people who were actually working

00:25:23   just saying whatever they need to say

00:25:26   sort of like when we when we've

00:25:28   discussed the audio logs from plane

00:25:30   crashes I'm always struck by how

00:25:34   professional those recordings are and

00:25:36   how calm the pilots are under

00:25:40   circumstances where I would be screaming

00:25:42   and they're just like we're reporting

00:25:44   the second engine is out on the

00:25:45   right-hand side it's like oh my god dude

00:25:49   but that's what you need when it's a

00:25:51   professional environment right I want a

00:25:52   playlist who's able to just do that

00:25:54   because it is like keep it together man

00:25:56   I'm fine with the yelling in the

00:25:59   excitement because part of what SpaceX

00:26:02   is doing here is almost like a

00:26:03   recruitment video for like future

00:26:05   engineers for working at SpaceX like you

00:26:07   want a thing that's exciting so I

00:26:09   totally get that at one point they had

00:26:11   two commentators who just start talking

00:26:13   and then for me that's where am I think

00:26:15   like stop talking comment are you

00:26:16   talking over the thing like I don't want

00:26:18   to hear it whatever user just show me

00:26:19   the feet I can see it on the screen I

00:26:22   don't need to talking heads telling me

00:26:24   that I'm looking at a rocket going into

00:26:26   space like obviously they turned it into

00:26:28   a sports coverage I have the hollering

00:26:30   you know frat boys they've got the

00:26:32   glitzy good-looking young commentators

00:26:35   who are sitting there at the day

00:26:36   giving us some punditry and filling time

00:26:38   and that they're turning until uh yeah

00:26:40   it's the Superbowl of space the thing

00:26:42   that it made me think of it's like this

00:26:45   is an old rage comic which I wonder if

00:26:46   anybody can find on the internet it's

00:26:48   forever old but it always made me laugh

00:26:49   so hard and it was a comic that somebody

00:26:51   made when the Royal Wedding happened

00:26:53   years ago and it shows that like a guy

00:26:55   who's sitting at home who doesn't really

00:26:57   care about the Royal Wedding and he just

00:26:58   turns it on and he's watching it he

00:27:00   starts getting more and more into the

00:27:01   Royal Wedding

00:27:02   and then Katie Couric is doing the

00:27:04   narration about what's happening on the

00:27:06   wedding and like the caption has like

00:27:07   shut the fuck up Katie Couric I just

00:27:09   want to watch as pretty princess getting

00:27:10   married that was kind of my feeling with

00:27:12   the space launch is like when the two

00:27:13   commentators start talking is like shut

00:27:15   the fuck up I just want to watch the

00:27:16   rocket I don't really want to hear your

00:27:18   comments on this so that's where it

00:27:20   bothered me more is like the words but

00:27:22   the cheering I don't know personally I

00:27:24   can see why some people might think it

00:27:27   was a bit much because it was a lot but

00:27:31   the cheering I was okay with I think it

00:27:34   made it more exciting to watch so I

00:27:35   can't get with you on this one I would

00:27:38   have cut to the cheering mm-hmm as it

00:27:40   lifted off the pad mm-hmm but all the

00:27:42   other cheering throughout the whole

00:27:44   process from like three or four minutes

00:27:46   before to five minutes after it just

00:27:49   been little de Anna you know what it did

00:27:52   make it more exciting

00:27:53   but open-heart surgery would be more

00:27:55   exciting if you had a thousand people

00:27:56   cheering as it happened it doesn't mean

00:27:58   it's like appropriate that's not what

00:28:00   was really going on the people who are

00:28:01   making this happened well I just I don't

00:28:04   know I like the image in my head of

00:28:06   broadcaster Brady who's managing all the

00:28:08   live streams for SpaceX and the Rockets

00:28:11   going up you have your hand on the dial

00:28:13   for how much crowd cheering we can hear

00:28:15   and you turn it up as the rocket goes up

00:28:17   you give it a second dip and then Brady

00:28:19   turns it down that's enough of that

00:28:22   people just turns it and I would have

00:28:23   had okay now's a good time cut to the

00:28:25   frat boys let's see them jumping up and

00:28:27   down give them a few seconds well

00:28:30   include er include them as part of it

00:28:32   but it just overwhelmed it anyway

00:28:34   obviously obviously I'm in the minority

00:28:36   here and so be it let's get to the

00:28:39   business of the car in space okay all

00:28:42   right so to the final stage we had

00:28:45   bolted this Tesla Roadster

00:28:48   which I didn't realize of course I

00:28:50   should have realized cuz of course it

00:28:51   always has to be this way was going to

00:28:52   like do some laps of the earth before it

00:28:54   got flung out into the far reaches of

00:28:57   the solar system mm-hmm and I have a few

00:28:59   thoughts about it but the first thing I

00:29:01   have to say is I was not prepared for

00:29:06   how awesome it would look like when they

00:29:09   started cutting to those shots and you

00:29:10   had the live stream of it and like the

00:29:12   thing was just slowly rotating and the

00:29:14   earth was just like creeping into shock

00:29:17   behind

00:29:17   spaceman star man in the red car it was

00:29:20   like I couldn't stop looking at it and I

00:29:23   was like like I had to show people I

00:29:26   would like say to my wife oh my goodness

00:29:27   you just have to look at this and I'd be

00:29:29   watching her and she'd be like yeah okay

00:29:30   I've seen it but like I found it

00:29:32   completely hypnotic artistically it was

00:29:36   like it looked impressive yeah I'll

00:29:39   completely agree with you there this is

00:29:41   how I was aware the event occurred

00:29:42   because when I was done watching my

00:29:45   chick flick and I've turned on Twitter

00:29:46   realize like what are all these pictures

00:29:48   is from space of this car like I had a

00:29:51   weird experience of the pictures look so

00:29:55   in some sense so strange like I had a

00:29:58   very hard time understanding out of

00:30:00   context what is this actually a

00:30:02   photograph of and so I had to do a

00:30:04   little bit of digging around about like

00:30:05   what does this situation actually look

00:30:08   like not just from the the camera that's

00:30:10   on the the front of this car like what

00:30:13   is what is the actual situation that I'm

00:30:15   looking at but the pictures themselves

00:30:17   they're very impressive but there's

00:30:20   almost like sort of like the Maryland

00:30:22   point where a photo can become so

00:30:24   impressive it becomes unreal looking

00:30:26   like I have a hard time looking at those

00:30:29   photos and thinking of them as real even

00:30:32   though I know they are it's just like

00:30:34   I'm looking at a car floating above the

00:30:36   earth my brain does not process this as

00:30:38   a real image it looks very strange so

00:30:41   should they have sent a car to space or

00:30:43   not yeah of course why not

00:30:46   what can be the reason to not do well

00:30:48   here's what I think about it it looked

00:30:52   amazing as like an artistic project as a

00:30:55   piece of art I think that warrants it

00:30:58   like it just you know sometimes you have

00:30:59   to do something

00:31:00   I mean musk himself

00:31:01   sometimes you just have to do something

00:31:03   because it's fun and a bit crazy hmm

00:31:05   and I think that completely justifies it

00:31:06   and I think you know and whether or not

00:31:08   they sent up sculpture or a bright red

00:31:12   car with the with an astronaut the wheel

00:31:14   which was a bit more funny or whatever

00:31:16   they decided to send up okay they they

00:31:18   decided to make it an artistic project

00:31:20   the main argument that burns on the

00:31:23   internet about this was if they're going

00:31:24   to spend all that money could they have

00:31:26   used a payload that had a bit more

00:31:27   scientific value like they didn't want

00:31:29   to risk some billion-dollar satellite

00:31:30   but could they have sent something up

00:31:32   that was like more useful and that's

00:31:34   like you know I think your position

00:31:36   that's clear from your noise I

00:31:38   understand the reason why people want to

00:31:40   go down that road

00:31:41   yeah but they that road never ends okay

00:31:45   well you could always in theory spend

00:31:48   more money in a more practical way

00:31:51   there's a never a time that is not true

00:31:55   that argument on its own I find never

00:31:59   convincing oh this money could have been

00:32:01   spent in a more effective way of course

00:32:03   all money that could be true so I just

00:32:07   don't find that interesting I agree with

00:32:09   you and I think doing something artistic

00:32:11   and fun is good mm-hmm

00:32:13   here's the one problem I have with it

00:32:15   though and that is the muddy water that

00:32:19   is created by the commercial aspect of

00:32:23   it because ela must run SpaceX and he's

00:32:26   got grand plans for it he also runs

00:32:28   Tesla which is you know losing a bit of

00:32:31   money at the moment and they're trying

00:32:32   to make a successful business out of it

00:32:33   this was fantastic publicity and

00:32:35   promotion for the Tesla company and I

00:32:39   think that's where it starts getting a

00:32:41   bit blurrier between doing something for

00:32:43   fun and something artistic that just

00:32:45   tickled the world and inspired people

00:32:46   which is what it did without question

00:32:49   it's a very inspiring thing to do and a

00:32:51   very viral thing to do and in fairness

00:32:54   to Tesla and Elon Musk I do think they

00:32:56   showed restraint you know they didn't

00:32:58   have big bright Tesla signs everywhere

00:33:00   and make it look too commercial I think

00:33:02   they showed a lot of dignity in that

00:33:04   respect the dashboard said don't panic

00:33:06   it didn't say for 25 percent off your

00:33:10   next Tesla offer code spaceman right at

00:33:12   your local dealer right looks like

00:33:14   that's not what they did

00:33:15   so yeah there was not an overabundance

00:33:18   of commercial this year exactly they did

00:33:20   show restraint but I do think it is

00:33:22   still a little bit muddy

00:33:24   I mean he's you know they're paying for

00:33:26   it themselves it's not I don't know how

00:33:27   much taxpayer money went into this whole

00:33:29   thing I don't know if they you know are

00:33:31   paying the normal rates for the use of

00:33:33   the NASA facilities or not but you know

00:33:35   they're paying for it so to some extent

00:33:37   I'm completely on board with them doing

00:33:39   what they want with their rocket but you

00:33:41   do know I worry about the

00:33:42   commercialization of space and coca-cola

00:33:44   billboards and things like that and this

00:33:46   still was a little bit promotional and I

00:33:48   think that's what left me with a little

00:33:50   bit of unease about it like you can't

00:33:53   just say ah I did this for fun because I

00:33:55   thought it would be funny and I just

00:33:56   needed some weight there's certainly a

00:33:58   marketing and promotional agenda at play

00:34:02   here that is legitimate and no one's

00:34:05   breaking any rules or anything but it

00:34:06   just feels a bit like okay yeah I

00:34:10   selling a few cars while you're there

00:34:11   are you mate okay so yeah I feel like I

00:34:14   I don't understand the parameters of

00:34:16   what you mean by muddied the only

00:34:19   comparison I could think of here is like

00:34:20   Steve Jobs being so involved in Pixar

00:34:23   and Apple and so then you had like cross

00:34:26   promotion between those companies but I

00:34:29   feel like at least from what I have read

00:34:32   about the greater musk Empire like the

00:34:36   Solar City Tesla and SpaceX are

00:34:38   companies that are sharing a lot of

00:34:40   technology between them yeah so there's

00:34:43   something to me that I just I do not

00:34:45   think that these companies are as

00:34:47   separate as normal companies would be so

00:34:51   I guess I'm just I'm not quite

00:34:54   understanding what you're saying money

00:34:56   people complaining about a lack of

00:34:57   quarantining between his different

00:34:59   business is it more like the humanity

00:35:01   star it's just the fact that there's

00:35:03   like a tesla going around earth I feel

00:35:05   like this was like a big milestone for

00:35:07   space exploration certainly that's how

00:35:10   it's been pitched and having a carrot

00:35:13   virtus man bolted to the front of it

00:35:15   feels like cheapening it a bit and by

00:35:19   the way I'm also well aware that I wear

00:35:21   an amiga watch that was the one they

00:35:23   wore on the moon and all the marketing

00:35:24   involved with it as well say like I'm

00:35:26   aware this goes back to the days of NASA

00:35:28   too

00:35:29   right this was a bit more overt

00:35:30   obviously a bright red car with a

00:35:32   mannequin at the steering wheel rather

00:35:34   than oh we need a watch who are we gonna

00:35:35   get out what just from it's certainly

00:35:37   easier to spot on the live stream than

00:35:39   the bridge I've watched the astronauts

00:35:41   are wearing when they landed on the moon

00:35:42   yes that's for sure it just felt

00:35:44   promotional it's a bit like did you have

00:35:46   to try and flog your cars at the same

00:35:47   time too

00:35:49   don't get me wrong I like the whimsy of

00:35:51   it and like the fun of it and I'm

00:35:53   totally on board with that and it

00:35:55   totally worked on me it totally worked

00:35:57   on me but at the same time I was

00:35:59   thinking I yep pocketing a few extra

00:36:01   bucks there Hey

00:36:01   yeah let's push the business it's like

00:36:04   if you know when if Neil Armstrong and

00:36:05   Buzz Aldrin went to the moon and they

00:36:07   stuck a flag in the soil and it had the

00:36:09   General Motors logo on it instead of

00:36:10   America because General Motors had paid

00:36:12   them you know five hundred million you'd

00:36:15   be thinking man that was a pretty

00:36:17   historic moment to be vlogging cars I

00:36:20   think that there is something

00:36:21   interesting about your thoughts here

00:36:24   that I can't quite grasp why I don't

00:36:28   agree with you on this and I think like

00:36:32   so the General Motors one is an

00:36:33   interesting comparison and it's like I

00:36:35   agree under that circumstance if they

00:36:36   got out and they put a GM flag on the

00:36:38   moon because GM sponsored the NASA space

00:36:41   flight it would feel like oh that's sad

00:36:44   but I wouldn't feel that way if in an

00:36:47   alternate universe of history the United

00:36:50   States government wasn't actually the

00:36:52   primary mover and the primary mover was

00:36:55   GE like an n GE was the entity that was

00:36:59   doing the space exploration in a much

00:37:02   more direct way I guess this is partly

00:37:04   like I don't really care what the entity

00:37:07   is and in some ways like when NASA does

00:37:11   a thing they're selling the idea that

00:37:14   America has nuclear superiority during

00:37:17   the Cold War and when SpaceX is doing a

00:37:21   thing they are selling the idea of

00:37:24   increased cargo capacity to space I

00:37:26   don't see those things as wildly

00:37:29   different I'll tell you where the

00:37:32   problem comes from and I know there's a

00:37:33   difference here between a businessman

00:37:36   and a commercial entity and for example

00:37:38   say governments and politicians right

00:37:41   but people have a resist

00:37:43   well some people have a resistance to

00:37:45   people in positions of great power and

00:37:47   authority using that to give themselves

00:37:50   even more and the best example I could

00:37:52   think of was say you elected a leader of

00:37:55   a country you know you elected someone

00:37:57   your president or prime minister and

00:37:59   they happen to own a bunch of hotels or

00:38:02   golf courses or something like that and

00:38:04   when they became leader they started

00:38:07   using all their facilities and their

00:38:09   commercial interests in the duties of

00:38:12   their political office you'd start to

00:38:15   think hang on you're using that to your

00:38:16   advantage to feather your own nest and

00:38:18   like you shouldn't be leveraging that

00:38:20   position of power yeah and I taught I

00:38:22   totally agree with you that right like

00:38:24   that's also a case but that seems much

00:38:25   more like a like a conflict of interest

00:38:27   yeah between the role of a civil servant

00:38:30   and the role of a businessperson I said

00:38:32   at the start I say a difference but he

00:38:34   is leveraging a position of great brute

00:38:37   force and power financial power and you

00:38:40   know privilege and collaboration with

00:38:42   the government and things that help

00:38:43   SpaceX like the SpaceX has a lot of

00:38:45   government contracts so he's like he's

00:38:47   got into this position of great power

00:38:48   and great influence and then bolting his

00:38:52   car from his other company on the front

00:38:54   while he's at it

00:38:55   fear was in this in a similar vein it's

00:38:58   not the same but it feels in a similar

00:39:00   vein it's like okay so you've built this

00:39:02   rocket company and you're getting all

00:39:03   these government contracts and you're

00:39:05   like you're launching from a NASA

00:39:07   facility and that and while you're there

00:39:09   you're thinking oh let's Chuck a Tesla

00:39:12   on the front as well because that will

00:39:14   help my other business it's not the same

00:39:16   mm-hmm I don't think he's done anything

00:39:17   well I'm sure he hasn't done anything

00:39:19   improper he wouldn't have been allowed

00:39:21   to do it but it just has that feeling to

00:39:23   it of I came I that's enough enough what

00:39:27   else do you want to sell while you're at

00:39:28   it hmm

00:39:29   that's just a little feeling in the back

00:39:30   of the head about it I did think it was

00:39:31   cold though I did love it I did love it

00:39:33   okay here's a question for you if we

00:39:36   could go back in time and you're able to

00:39:38   make the decision about what the payload

00:39:40   should be would you change it would you

00:39:43   say I think it would be better if it's

00:39:46   not a Tesla if it's a different payload

00:39:48   you know if the decision was totally

00:39:50   down to you what's happening is like

00:39:51   Elon Musk has brought you on and an

00:39:53   advisor and he's saying I may have lost

00:39:55   perspective on this

00:39:56   you Brady we all know from the podcast

00:39:58   yeah you're hugely influential podcast

00:40:01   that you are the number one fan of space

00:40:03   what do you think we should do yeah I

00:40:04   would say to him I think this is a good

00:40:07   idea I think the visual of a cool sports

00:40:09   car with an astronaut at the wheel will

00:40:12   really capture people's imaginations but

00:40:15   I think I mean he's in an impossible

00:40:17   position that if you're gonna use a car

00:40:18   cause he owns a car company but I would

00:40:20   say to him is there something else that

00:40:22   would have equal impact and be equally

00:40:25   clever and funny that hasn't got such a

00:40:27   direct attachment to you a because of

00:40:31   the commercial appearance of it and

00:40:33   because of maybe the slightly

00:40:35   egotistical appearance of it I'd say to

00:40:37   him I love the idea I probably wouldn't

00:40:41   have said to him I love the idea because

00:40:42   I was wrong I didn't realize how cold it

00:40:44   would look but now that I do realize how

00:40:46   cool yet in this scenario you are both

00:40:48   future Brady who knows how it works and

00:40:49   Asprey who's doing the advice right so

00:40:52   my my advice with all this knowledge of

00:40:54   hindsight would be brilliant idea it's

00:40:56   gonna really capture people but do it in

00:40:59   a way that makes you look a bit less

00:41:02   egotistical in a way that looks less

00:41:05   like you're trying to do something

00:41:07   commercial is this something else is

00:41:09   there another way we could do it and

00:41:11   achieve all the same good things without

00:41:13   that kind of akina's to it I don't know

00:41:16   if I'd have that idea but that's what I

00:41:18   say they're just listening to that all I

00:41:19   can imagine is if I was the CEO of

00:41:21   company and you were my advisor there

00:41:22   I'd be coming like okay great but I'm

00:41:25   really busy what is your suggestion if

00:41:26   you don't have another suggestion we're

00:41:28   going with this well I'd say can I have

00:41:30   more than the 30 seconds that gray just

00:41:32   gave me okay you can have until the next

00:41:33   episode of hello internet that's how

00:41:35   much time you I don't astok and that

00:41:38   achiness like just to put things in the

00:41:41   right context that achiness is less than

00:41:42   how fantastic I thought it was like on

00:41:45   the cosmic scales of this there is no

00:41:48   doubt that launching a Tesla into space

00:41:52   means that way more people watch this

00:41:56   launch than ever would have yes I'm not

00:41:59   convinced that this actually sells a lot

00:42:02   of Tesla's but it's sure like I can

00:42:05   guarantee that there's like increased

00:42:07   the viewership of the livestream

00:42:10   50% 60% I bet it is some enormous amount

00:42:15   this is a concrete load because it just

00:42:18   makes it such a thing and the subsequent

00:42:20   coverage yeah I bet you're a hassle cars

00:42:22   I know people that are looking at the

00:42:23   cars now as a result and then also just

00:42:25   increases like the brand awareness so

00:42:27   which is also probably what the chief

00:42:29   executive would have laughed me out of

00:42:30   in the office when I went in there with

00:42:31   mine is not a commercial Hey are you

00:42:34   worried let's you work at a company

00:42:35   you're in the wrong place but yeah the

00:42:38   the showmanship of it was very good do

00:42:42   you want to hear my idea okay what's

00:42:43   your idea if we're gonna be a key in

00:42:45   about money what do you think of this

00:42:46   you know how I had that screen on it

00:42:48   that said don't panic the display on the

00:42:50   screen I'm assuming that wasn't actually

00:42:52   being displayed on the screen and it was

00:42:54   stuck on permanently like I don't know

00:42:57   the answer to that but my address' is

00:42:58   that that's like a piece of cardboard or

00:43:00   something stuck on there with don't

00:43:01   panic written on her but either way

00:43:03   right if it is a functioning screen if

00:43:06   they had some capability to change what

00:43:11   was written on the screen and every

00:43:13   second they could put another name on

00:43:14   there CGP grey Brady Haran dirt from

00:43:19   various table I'm Jane Smith Cyndi

00:43:23   Lauper are cycling every second with the

00:43:26   earth and the background that everything

00:43:27   and a camera capturing it all and you

00:43:30   could buy your name on that screen for a

00:43:32   hundred bucks and you could screen grab

00:43:35   the moment your name was on the screen

00:43:36   in the car with the astronaut and the

00:43:37   earth behind how many do Rick and they

00:43:40   would have sold a million I mean they

00:43:43   tell they'd sell a lot obviously you'd

00:43:45   need an auction for that Brady you

00:43:46   couldn't just have a flat price for that

00:43:48   let's just say it's a hundred bucks H

00:43:49   and they sold a million that make a

00:43:52   hundred million bucks like this now it

00:43:56   totally trips my like that's

00:43:57   disgustingly commercial for you okay

00:44:00   it's good to know where your line is

00:44:02   yeah that's why I find this conversation

00:44:04   interesting because it never really

00:44:05   crossed my mind about the commercial

00:44:07   nature of it and I feel like I don't

00:44:08   feel that for this at all I think it's

00:44:10   just cool but then it's like oh but if

00:44:12   you are auctioning screen time with like

00:44:14   now that cross was my boundary now it's

00:44:17   too much that's completely what they did

00:44:18   it's the only difference is they didn't

00:44:20   auction it he just took it for himself

00:44:21   with his car

00:44:23   and gave himself all the screen time

00:44:24   gave his Carol the screen time it's

00:44:26   exactly what happened yeah I don't know

00:44:27   it just feels different this is what

00:44:32   makes life interesting is it's

00:44:33   fundamentally impossible to be perfectly

00:44:36   consistent on all things like that way

00:44:37   lies madness and in lots of these

00:44:40   conversations you just have to think

00:44:41   like why do I think that or like why

00:44:43   does this feel different and sometimes

00:44:45   there really isn't any answer I mean

00:44:47   it's also my professional upbringing

00:44:48   coming out here and I am aware of that I

00:44:50   mean I worked for the BBC for a long

00:44:51   time and the BBC is very sensitive to

00:44:53   people exploiting its power for

00:44:56   commercial purposes so if someone calls

00:44:58   you up at the BBC as a journalist says

00:45:00   I've got a great idea for a story it's

00:45:01   about a new car I've made do you want to

00:45:04   come and make a film about it you very

00:45:06   quickly have to make editorial judgments

00:45:09   versus commercial judgments and is this

00:45:11   person just trying to use the power of

00:45:12   the BBC to sell cars is this a

00:45:14   legitimate story so I do have a very

00:45:16   sensitive radar to this so I guess when

00:45:19   I see it happening in the world and I

00:45:21   see people using spotlights to sell

00:45:24   things which is a perfectly fair thing

00:45:27   to do and a very American thing to do

00:45:28   I'm perhaps more sensitive to it and I

00:45:31   think our you know everyone wants to

00:45:34   make a buck any bit of spot light or

00:45:36   camera time as a chance to make a buck I

00:45:38   feel like this is the perfect time for a

00:45:41   commercial break this episode of Hello

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00:46:58   do a lot is actually upload pictures

00:47:00   that aren't photos but maybe scans of

00:47:03   like important documents like like a

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00:47:08   that you can give to someone else they

00:47:09   can have on their wall or most recently

00:47:12   I actually had a friend create bit of a

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00:47:16   but they sent me a really really lovely

00:47:18   high-res version of it that I'd like to

00:47:20   have on the wall so what I'm doing is

00:47:22   getting a fractured and I'll have my own

00:47:24   brilliant copy already on a piece of

00:47:26   glass or maybe get pictures from other

00:47:28   sources for example NASA have loads of

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00:47:33   there high-resolution in the public

00:47:34   domain and if there's a real cracker why

00:47:37   don't you get that put on a piece of

00:47:38   glass and put up on the wall I remember

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00:48:16   from here our thanks to fracture for

00:48:18   supporting this podcast and my personal

00:48:20   thanks to fracture for getting me out of

00:48:22   a few jams when it comes time for buying

00:48:24   presents but but it's not over yet with

00:48:27   SpaceX there's one last thing that Brady

00:48:31   wants to talk about with this and what

00:48:32   is that Brady well I have been unable to

00:48:35   get the answer to this definitively and

00:48:37   I think it's because basics are

00:48:39   deliberately being obscure about it

00:48:42   obviously the car was bolted on to the

00:48:45   stage of the rocket it had to be be

00:48:48   when it was going around the earth it

00:48:49   still had to do another big blast off to

00:48:51   start it's huge or but through the solar

00:48:54   system out towards the asteroid belt but

00:48:57   obviously all the camera angles were

00:48:59   quite artfully cropped so that we never

00:49:01   actually saw any part of like that stage

00:49:04   really did we most of the angles the

00:49:06   idea was to make it look like the car

00:49:07   was on his own because that was a better

00:49:09   shot and I'm alright with that you know

00:49:11   that's just prettiness and now obviously

00:49:14   it's done it's big burn and it's going

00:49:16   out now towards the orbit of Mars and

00:49:18   beyond as it starts this eternal loop

00:49:20   around the solar system it hasn't been

00:49:23   made entirely clear to me whether or not

00:49:25   the car has been separated from the

00:49:28   rocket after the rocket burn happened I

00:49:30   suspect it hasn't been although if you

00:49:32   look at the official Tesla animation of

00:49:34   this whole thing the car is drifting on

00:49:37   its own out towards Mars because that's

00:49:39   like a beautiful thought isn't it that

00:49:40   the cars driving on its own with David

00:49:43   Bowie playing and things like that I

00:49:45   don't know I don't know the answer yet

00:49:46   it's interesting comparing how SpaceX

00:49:49   treats this stuff compared to NASA I

00:49:52   mean NASA drowns you in detail and tells

00:49:55   you every single little thing that's

00:49:56   happening to the point that it's almost

00:49:58   overwhelming and too much detail and

00:50:00   SpaceX of obviously are coming at it a

00:50:02   lot of the time from a more pyaari

00:50:04   standpoint and what looks good and what

00:50:06   sells well and I think the boated nosov

00:50:10   the car to the rocket stage is a really

00:50:12   good example of this

00:50:13   they're very silent on it and this is

00:50:16   where you see the PR coming into things

00:50:18   more this was the thing when I was

00:50:20   mentioning before that the image seemed

00:50:21   unreal was my number one question upon

00:50:25   seeing those images was what it exactly

00:50:27   is the physical situation here because I

00:50:29   don't understand and I hadn't seen the

00:50:32   launch at that point so I thought oh

00:50:33   everybody who's seen the launch must

00:50:34   just know and I don't have any

00:50:37   perspective on it so I went googling

00:50:39   around and trying to find it and I was

00:50:40   really aware of the same thing like I

00:50:41   can't find any information on is the

00:50:44   Tesla just on its own or is it connected

00:50:47   to something I couldn't quite find it

00:50:49   and eventually in some reddit thread

00:50:52   somewhere someone linked to this image

00:50:55   which I don't think is an official image

00:50:57   at all but they were trying to explain

00:50:58   what the situation is and the thing that

00:51:01   I have just sent Brady to look at

00:51:02   shows that the Tesla is mounted on the

00:51:06   top of a rocket almost like if you

00:51:09   imagine if you had like a trophy at home

00:51:12   someone was giving you a Tesla trophy

00:51:14   there would be a base and then a

00:51:16   narrower part for the trophy and then

00:51:18   they would have a Tesla on the top of it

00:51:20   that's what it looks like and when I was

00:51:23   watching the livestream

00:51:26   after having seen this image I could see

00:51:29   that they show the rocket launching and

00:51:32   then there's a very strategic moment

00:51:33   where the livestream switches to a map

00:51:36   they start playing the spaceman music

00:51:39   and then it comes back and it just shows

00:51:41   the Tesla as though it's floating in

00:51:42   space and what I think happened there is

00:51:45   that they blew the hood off the top of

00:51:49   the rocket so that the Tesla is now

00:51:52   exposed to outer space and then all of

00:51:55   the camera angles are just from the side

00:51:58   or just from the front so that you don't

00:52:00   see the rocket that the Tesla is

00:52:02   actually connected to and thinking about

00:52:04   it it has to be connected to the rocket

00:52:08   for that into the orbit and if it's

00:52:12   connected to that Rockets like well

00:52:13   where's that rocket going to go if it's

00:52:15   pushing the Tesla it's just going to be

00:52:17   right behind the Tesla I don't think

00:52:18   there's any point in separating them so

00:52:21   I mean you would there would be things

00:52:23   you would separate just so I'm clear on

00:52:24   what I'm saying here I don't think

00:52:25   they've been particularly unclear about

00:52:27   what happened when it was circling

00:52:28   around the earth mm-hmm and I've just

00:52:30   sent you and link to a picture that Elon

00:52:33   Musk himself put on Instagram that shows

00:52:35   like the mounted trophy car that's never

00:52:37   been a secret and the fact that they

00:52:39   just had all the camera angles cropped

00:52:41   so that it makes a better photo to show

00:52:43   in the car in space I can live with that

00:52:45   why make a messy photo showing the rest

00:52:47   of the rocket when you don't need to the

00:52:49   thing I'm less clear about is it would

00:52:51   be common to do like an injection burst

00:52:53   to leave the Earth's orbit and then

00:52:55   leave your rocket behind hmm that's what

00:52:58   they have to do with probes like you

00:53:00   know the telescope's that they send out

00:53:02   far into space as well they eventually

00:53:04   have to get rid of that huge hulking

00:53:05   rocket behind and you have a payload

00:53:07   separation so I thought it was possible

00:53:10   this just like a tiny tiny little rocket

00:53:12   or charge or something that will give

00:53:14   the car an extra push

00:53:15   and the rocket will like eventually

00:53:18   start trailing behind that's what you

00:53:19   would normally do because all the

00:53:21   imagery and the official animations

00:53:23   basics shows the car on its own like

00:53:25   drifting past Mars and the cars on its

00:53:27   own now it's no longer bolted to the top

00:53:29   of the rocket but that they didn't show

00:53:31   that happening and I haven't showed it

00:53:32   happening they don't talk about it I

00:53:34   don't think it's like a conspiracy or

00:53:37   anything like that I just think from PR

00:53:38   reasons they don't want the image that

00:53:41   we all have to be a car stuck to a

00:53:45   runner for a million years going through

00:53:47   space so they want us to be thinking

00:53:49   it's just the car with the astronaut on

00:53:51   its own and whether that's the case or

00:53:53   not I still don't know maybe there is

00:53:54   the case it's suspiciously quiet to me

00:53:57   it may be by the time this podcast goes

00:53:59   out I'll know differently you know I'll

00:54:00   do a Mia culpa but I think they're being

00:54:02   a little bit

00:54:04   pyaari at the moment yeah at the time of

00:54:06   the recording it is unclear to both of

00:54:08   us what the final situation is for this

00:54:11   Tesla in space for millions of years

00:54:14   someone just sent me a tweet there cuz

00:54:17   I've been tweeting about this today

00:54:18   someone just sent me a tweet from a

00:54:20   tweet and a retweets I don't know how

00:54:21   legit this is but it sounds legit

00:54:23   already though someone with a bluetick

00:54:26   tweeted I now have confirmation that the

00:54:29   Tesla remains attached to the Falcons

00:54:31   second stage which is being observed by

00:54:34   asteroid experts it makes sense he'd

00:54:36   want to attached to the main rocket

00:54:37   because it'll be easier to track and all

00:54:39   that sort of stuff but I'm becoming

00:54:41   increasingly convinced until Elin must

00:54:45   tweets me back and tells me otherwise

00:54:47   that don't have an image of this car

00:54:49   floating through space on its own there

00:54:51   is a hulking great rocket stage attached

00:54:53   to the bottom of it again doesn't matter

00:54:56   still awesome still made nice photos but

00:54:59   it shows an interesting difference

00:55:00   what's going to happen now with

00:55:01   commercial space exploration

00:55:03   NASA's always is transparent almost to a

00:55:05   fault aren't they they tell you too much

00:55:07   and the commercial guys are going to be

00:55:10   a lot more will just show you what we

00:55:12   think is gonna get us the most retweets

00:55:13   well Brady now so once those retweets to

00:55:16   you know they do yeah that's true

00:55:19   everybody wants to retweet oh yeah

00:55:22   forgot about the kids spider-man gate

00:55:23   okay let's keep the retweets you know my

00:55:26   little nephew listens to the podcast

00:55:27   he's like you

00:55:28   bedtime thing right I was with him

00:55:30   recently and we were talking about when

00:55:33   uncle Brady spoke on the podcast about

00:55:35   spider-man in space and he was like I

00:55:39   think he said something along the lines

00:55:40   of I really wanted to see spider-man in

00:55:42   space sounds really cool

00:55:43   I sort of smugly to smile to myself and

00:55:46   thought well he's just a little boy he

00:55:47   doesn't really understand what we're

00:55:48   talking about on the podcast does he and

00:55:50   I'm like yeah it looks pretty cool

00:55:51   doesn't it what do you think uncle Brady

00:55:53   thought about that and he just looked at

00:55:55   me really solemnly and said you didn't

00:55:56   like it ago but I think it's good he

00:56:02   knew exactly what I was complaining

00:56:03   about but he's stupid it was awesome

00:56:07   put me in my place

00:56:09   uncle Brady party pooper so Brady I've

00:56:15   been getting into a lot of documentaries

00:56:16   lately yeah and I recommended one to you

00:56:20   to watch and I understand that you

00:56:23   you've seen an episode of it and this is

00:56:25   the Netflix documentary called the

00:56:28   confession tapes hmm it's about this

00:56:30   thing that we have touched upon on the

00:56:33   show which is my belief in the frailty

00:56:35   and the easily manipulated nature of

00:56:40   human memories and his documentary

00:56:44   series it's like a series of TV shows I

00:56:46   thought it was very very interesting to

00:56:49   see but what they're doing in each

00:56:50   episode is they're talking about a trial

00:56:55   where it is believed that the defendant

00:56:59   has submitted into evidence a false

00:57:02   confession for one reason or another I

00:57:04   find this stuff personally horrifying on

00:57:08   a variety of levels and I thought you

00:57:11   might want to watch it before the show

00:57:12   did you think it was good I watched one

00:57:14   episode I watched episode three the

00:57:17   third one on your advice and yes it was

00:57:19   it was pretty good thought it was

00:57:22   alright I don't know why that episode

00:57:24   was the one you decided to recommend to

00:57:25   me I'm sure you'll tell me but I love

00:57:28   this stuff by the way and I'm gonna

00:57:29   watch all of them cuz I find it

00:57:31   fascinating but I do feel like I'm

00:57:33   getting a little bit jaded by like

00:57:35   criminal stuff and podcasts and

00:57:37   documentaries is all the rage at the

00:57:39   moment it's everywhere you look and this

00:57:41   sort of wrong

00:57:42   convicted people thing has become a big

00:57:44   since cereal has become a real big thing

00:57:47   and everyone loves jumping on her and as

00:57:49   far as those things go I thought this

00:57:52   one that you got me to watch was a

00:57:53   pretty standard run-of-the-mill an

00:57:57   exceptional case that made me a little

00:58:00   bit yeah

00:58:01   I wasn't outraged by it didn't move my

00:58:04   emotional needle very much but I thought

00:58:07   it was well made and good and it's made

00:58:09   me wanna watch more and I guess in some

00:58:12   ways the typical blender solvent maybe

00:58:14   is a good reason that you chose me to

00:58:16   watch this one because it was so typical

00:58:18   of this sort of forced confession thing

00:58:20   but yeah I wanted to mention it because

00:58:21   I feel like it didn't have any

00:58:22   particular special circumstances some of

00:58:25   the other episodes have particularly the

00:58:26   first one which is a two-parter have

00:58:28   what I regard as somewhat appalling

00:58:30   special circumstances with regards to

00:58:32   confessions yeah but in this episode it

00:58:35   is that like here is how just a normal

00:58:38   person gets sucked into this thing it's

00:58:40   a guy whose girlfriend is killed in a

00:58:44   bar and then the bar is set on fire and

00:58:45   he's brought in to the police and as

00:58:49   these things go the police start

00:58:50   questioning him and he eventually gives

00:58:53   a confession which he says is a false

00:58:55   confession there are a couple of things

00:58:57   that I was just thinking about watching

00:59:01   this and and you say that crime stuff is

00:59:05   very popular like it's very zeitgeist II

00:59:08   at the moment and it's like man people

00:59:10   sure do you love crime it's a thing I'm

00:59:13   aware like if I'm in a bookstore mo he's

00:59:16   always aware of like oh there's a whole

00:59:17   section which is just called true crime

00:59:19   which is a thousand books alright just

00:59:22   about criminal stuff and yeah it feels

00:59:25   like there's an overabundance of crime

00:59:27   podcasts that exist in the world but

00:59:31   this is a thing that I I still wonder

00:59:34   about is does the average person really

00:59:39   have any idea about false confessions or

00:59:44   how unreliable human eye witness

00:59:47   testimony is and in this episode in

00:59:50   particular one at one of the jurors

00:59:52   makes a few comments about not being

00:59:55   aware

00:59:56   of things are simply not believing like

00:59:58   well someone had a confession like how

00:59:59   could