The Incomparable

92: Nick Fury`s Google Hangout


00:00:07   the incomparable podcast number 92 may [TS]

00:00:14   welcome back everybody to the [TS]

00:00:15   incomparable podcast I'm Jason smell [TS]

00:00:17   your host and on this edition of the [TS]

00:00:20   incomparable we're going to be talking [TS]

00:00:22   about the summer blockbuster spectacular [TS]

00:00:26   written and directed by tvs joss whedon [TS]

00:00:30   it's the Avengers wildly popular movie [TS]

00:00:34   rapidly served ready to surpass every [TS]

00:00:37   other movie ever made by anybody except [TS]

00:00:39   James Cameron is the greatest grossing [TS]

00:00:41   movie of all time or something like that [TS]

00:00:44   marvel's culmination of years of [TS]

00:00:46   plotting and planning that began with [TS]

00:00:49   the little scene that happened at the [TS]

00:00:51   end of the credits of iron man the [TS]

00:00:53   avengers big hit the summer to kick off [TS]

00:00:56   the summer movie season here to discuss [TS]

00:00:59   the matter are my guess a fine panel one [TS]

00:01:03   of the finest ever assembled in fact [TS]

00:01:05   they're like my own little Avengers if I [TS]

00:01:08   were Nick Fury so who would be who [TS]

00:01:12   that's the question that I have for [TS]

00:01:14   myself i'd like to introduce my very own [TS]

00:01:16   Hawkeye and more in hide and I'll man i [TS]

00:01:19   was really rooting for Hawkeye i'm [TS]

00:01:20   pretty pretty sight [TS]

00:01:22   I mean he doesn't you know now's your [TS]

00:01:23   time but I appreciate it thanks Jason [TS]

00:01:25   good to be here [TS]

00:01:26   I'm glad to have you here also joining [TS]

00:01:29   me is my own captain america himself ben [TS]

00:01:32   boychuk hi Ben [TS]

00:01:33   yeah kinda wanted to be iron man but [TS]

00:01:36   hello what you actually were a big fan [TS]

00:01:38   of iron man huge yeah alright you can be [TS]

00:01:40   armed and then how about that [TS]

00:01:42   goody it could be our man owed and you [TS]

00:01:44   could have an iron man 2i justify just [TS]

00:01:47   argued for it [TS]

00:01:48   pretty much yeah yeah now then wanted it [TS]

00:01:51   i did what i would not deprive him of [TS]

00:01:52   that joy now please welcome the Norse [TS]

00:01:54   god of thunder John siracusa you know [TS]

00:01:58   Jason I think of you I think of Nick [TS]

00:02:01   Fury so this is such such a perfect [TS]

00:02:03   match samuel l jackson Jason smells just [TS]

00:02:05   like peanut butter and jelly the eye [TS]

00:02:07   patch [TS]

00:02:08   yeah it i would even John the Hulk [TS]

00:02:11   because sometimes he gets really angry [TS]

00:02:12   about things but all the secret dan is [TS]

00:02:16   I'm always angry [TS]

00:02:17   thank you John thank you I soft-serve [TS]

00:02:19   that one to you I now [TS]

00:02:20   we work as a team maybe I should be [TS]

00:02:22   what's-her-name and like without Hawkeye [TS]

00:02:25   with scarlett johansson are ya i can be [TS]

00:02:27   Scarlett Johansson the dance Hawkeye ok [TS]

00:02:30   good times and now he was a [TS]

00:02:33   mild-mannered scientists before he was [TS]

00:02:35   bombarded with gamma radiation don't [TS]

00:02:37   make him angry you wouldn't like him [TS]

00:02:38   when he's angry [TS]

00:02:39   it's an eco hi Andy well actually if dan [TS]

00:02:43   was going to be Hawkeye can I be Charles [TS]

00:02:45   on a super in chester the third know you [TS]

00:02:48   got the boss'll accent I can talk about [TS]

00:02:50   my sister Maria you can have a little [TS]

00:02:52   hole you can only be Maxwell cute clear [TS]

00:02:54   a good word rash podcast is a different [TS]

00:02:58   night of magic episode [TS]

00:02:59   no yes that's next next thursday we have [TS]

00:03:01   to match the aftermath episode so anyway [TS]

00:03:05   we are talking about the adventures a [TS]

00:03:06   joss whedon a creator of my favorite TV [TS]

00:03:10   show of all time buffy the vampire [TS]

00:03:11   slayer' and a previously had only [TS]

00:03:13   directed one movie which was a serenity [TS]

00:03:16   the follow-on to the Firefly TV series [TS]

00:03:18   which is actually had a fine film in its [TS]

00:03:21   own right but and Marvel gave him the [TS]

00:03:24   keys and basically said we have been [TS]

00:03:26   setting up this ridiculous film that's [TS]

00:03:28   going to include a billion different [TS]

00:03:29   characters and four years now and we [TS]

00:03:33   need somebody to actually make it not [TS]

00:03:36   stink and they brought in joss whedon to [TS]

00:03:39   do that and I think the tenor of the [TS]

00:03:41   reviews that I read when the movie came [TS]

00:03:43   out seem to be very much along the lines [TS]

00:03:46   of critics saying they dreaded seeing [TS]

00:03:49   this movie figuring that it would be a [TS]

00:03:51   soulless culmination of corporate [TS]

00:03:53   synergy and that they were pleasantly [TS]

00:03:55   surprised that it was funny and that it [TS]

00:03:59   you know it managed to focus on the [TS]

00:04:01   characters and not just become [TS]

00:04:03   spider-man 3 basically to pick one [TS]

00:04:06   example or one of the latter-day pre [TS]

00:04:09   Christopher Nolan Batman movies that's [TS]

00:04:11   just a complete mess in a disaster like [TS]

00:04:14   Arnold Schwarzenegger is mr. freeze [TS]

00:04:15   boy that movie was really bad chill out [TS]

00:04:17   okay so that was really that in [TS]

00:04:21   spider-man 3 or like the pinnacle of you [TS]

00:04:23   know more villains or heroes just stick [TS]

00:04:25   everything in there and I'm sure I'm [TS]

00:04:27   sure it'll be good and they and they're [TS]

00:04:29   always terrible and the Avengers i think [TS]

00:04:32   from the outside it seemed like that was [TS]

00:04:35   a natural guess if you had to guess what [TS]

00:04:37   was going to come of this movie was [TS]

00:04:38   going to be that was a mess and the [TS]

00:04:40   reason it exists is because the people [TS]

00:04:43   in [TS]

00:04:43   our whole you know planning said we will [TS]

00:04:46   make a lot of money let us let's make [TS]

00:04:47   this movie and and so a lot of the [TS]

00:04:51   reviews seem to be it has it's much [TS]

00:04:53   better than it has any right to be [TS]

00:04:55   which I think really brings me to to my [TS]

00:04:58   first question knowing that andy has [TS]

00:05:00   seen it and didn't really like it [TS]

00:05:01   um you know it is is it a good movie [TS]

00:05:04   fundamentally or is the reaction that [TS]

00:05:08   people have had especially the critics [TS]

00:05:10   have had to the Avengers more that it's [TS]

00:05:13   not a it's not the disaster that it [TS]

00:05:15   really could have been because that's [TS]

00:05:16   not a ringing endorsement right I I to [TS]

00:05:20   argue that it's actually a pretty good [TS]

00:05:22   movie and well I think a lot of the [TS]

00:05:24   criticisms that have been level that it [TS]

00:05:25   had been level at the plot I I think [TS]

00:05:28   that's actually the least important [TS]

00:05:29   thing here because I think no matter [TS]

00:05:31   what the plot i think no matter what [TS]

00:05:33   kind of plot we're going to do it was [TS]

00:05:34   gonna be bad like we're talking [TS]

00:05:37   superhero movies here right [TS]

00:05:39   superhero movie plots are you know not [TS]

00:05:41   really usually the highest caliber a and [TS]

00:05:44   to be fair superhero comic plots are not [TS]

00:05:47   really the highest calendar right like [TS]

00:05:48   however right like there's clearly very [TS]

00:05:50   little respect for them otherwise they [TS]

00:05:52   wouldn't just retcon them every time [TS]

00:05:54   they felt like it was convenient [TS]

00:05:56   so you know in that sense I think it you [TS]

00:05:59   know the the movie delivered really well [TS]

00:06:01   on what i was looking forward to which [TS]

00:06:04   was to say let's take these interesting [TS]

00:06:06   characters with them in a situation and [TS]

00:06:08   see how they sort of bounce off each [TS]

00:06:10   other and you know Joss Whedon's really [TS]

00:06:12   well-suited to that because he's done a [TS]

00:06:13   lot of work with ensemble cast before [TS]

00:06:15   and that was going to be tough with the [TS]

00:06:16   movie with all these people who would [TS]

00:06:18   basically carried their own films to [TS]

00:06:20   varying degrees of success so I think [TS]

00:06:23   you know it was entertaining and yeah i [TS]

00:06:25   think the the addition of you know [TS]

00:06:28   having some humor and some interesting [TS]

00:06:30   drama and conflict in there i thought it [TS]

00:06:32   really it worked really well [TS]

00:06:34   well we didn't you know his his his [TS]

00:06:36   history everything he's done is really [TS]

00:06:37   been an ensemble show and one not one [TS]

00:06:39   way or another and this definitely felt [TS]

00:06:41   like we were watching a joss whedon TV [TS]

00:06:43   show series you know season long story [TS]

00:06:45   arc played out over two-and-a-half hours [TS]

00:06:48   and he gives everybody there moments and [TS]

00:06:49   you know in many ways this was a an [TS]

00:06:51   inspired choice for a writer and [TS]

00:06:53   director it in in that sense that he he [TS]

00:06:56   was able to bring some personality and [TS]

00:06:59   get everybody there moments and make it [TS]

00:07:02   not seem like a complete mess while also [TS]

00:07:04   honoring to dance point the [TS]

00:07:07   ridiculousness of a superhero team-up [TS]

00:07:11   movie right down very important right [TS]

00:07:13   down to the part where the superheroes [TS]

00:07:15   fight each other over a misunderstanding [TS]

00:07:16   because you've got to have that right [TS]

00:07:19   always and in this case we get we get [TS]

00:07:21   Iron Man and Thor especially facing off [TS]

00:07:25   against each other with some which is [TS]

00:07:28   perfect because geeks are always about [TS]

00:07:29   well who would win in the wind [TS]

00:07:31   that's right but will captain America [TS]

00:07:32   would come in and break it up that's [TS]

00:07:33   what would happen [TS]

00:07:34   clearly clearly he's such a killjoy [TS]

00:07:38   yeah that's Steve Rogers [TS]

00:07:41   i feel kind of like the people who watch [TS]

00:07:43   serenity who had no idea what fireflies [TS]

00:07:46   because i'm not a big comic book guy and [TS]

00:07:49   I game and I guess I know who these [TS]

00:07:50   people are right but if you haven't [TS]

00:07:52   watched you know a short 13 episodes [TS]

00:07:54   season of television or something to [TS]

00:07:56   familiarize with you with these [TS]

00:07:58   characters then the ensemble structure [TS]

00:08:00   of a movie really hurts the the chances [TS]

00:08:04   of the movie really landing with the [TS]

00:08:06   audience in terms of like I was serious [TS]

00:08:08   movie and I really connect with these [TS]

00:08:09   characters because you just don't have [TS]

00:08:10   enough screen time to give to each one [TS]

00:08:12   of them so Joss is the king of trying to [TS]

00:08:15   give everyone a little moment but you [TS]

00:08:16   know the bottom line is it's like a [TS]

00:08:18   two-and-a-half-hour movie and there's a [TS]

00:08:19   lot of characters and there's a lot of [TS]

00:08:21   moving parts and can you really get [TS]

00:08:22   seven satisfying story arcs plus by the [TS]

00:08:25   way the overall story arc and you know [TS]

00:08:27   just this just too many moving parts you [TS]

00:08:29   don't have time you don't have the [TS]

00:08:30   screen time to develop these guys so if [TS]

00:08:31   you if there's a backstory that you buy [TS]

00:08:33   into or if you've seen all the other [TS]

00:08:35   movies or whatever then at least you're [TS]

00:08:37   coming in with something but I saw a [TS]

00:08:39   couple of the other movies or whatever I [TS]

00:08:41   but i do i'm not particularly familiar [TS]

00:08:43   with these characters so all i had to go [TS]

00:08:46   on was the the stuff that you ride it so [TS]

00:08:47   it was it was I think I went in [TS]

00:08:49   expecting it to be a real uphill battle [TS]

00:08:53   for him to be able to have these many [TS]

00:08:55   moving pieces in a movie be successful [TS]

00:08:58   in any way I I came out of it thinking [TS]

00:09:00   that he did as well as i could imagine [TS]

00:09:03   he could do to connect to someone like [TS]

00:09:05   me I and I guess that one coming out of [TS]

00:09:08   the movie i guess i decided that the [TS]

00:09:10   thing that really makes me hate a movie [TS]

00:09:12   is not so much stupid plot in the [TS]

00:09:14   superhero movie but like bad writing and [TS]

00:09:17   bad acting and bad choices and so [TS]

00:09:21   basically if you can if you have ok [TS]

00:09:23   writing it's not embarrassingly bad and [TS]

00:09:25   it's clever in some way I'm going to [TS]

00:09:27   forgive a lot so that's what I came out [TS]

00:09:29   of this movie I was like Frances it's a [TS]

00:09:31   silly superhero movie but it didn't like [TS]

00:09:34   offend me i didn't come out of it saying [TS]

00:09:35   all that was just terrible and i can't [TS]

00:09:37   believe i spend my money and I'm like [TS]

00:09:38   it's mine was fun like and I don't think [TS]

00:09:42   that's the reaction a lot of people are [TS]

00:09:43   having and I also imagine maybe if I had [TS]

00:09:45   seen this as a younger child that would [TS]

00:09:47   have allowed being excited me more but I [TS]

00:09:49   came out of it [TS]

00:09:50   smiling and then immediately for [TS]

00:09:51   everything about the movie i would watch [TS]

00:09:53   the 13-episode [TS]

00:09:54   Joss Whedon's Avengers TV series but it [TS]

00:09:57   would have been canceled [TS]

00:09:58   yeah right after after episode 10 I mean [TS]

00:10:01   they would have in order to Arizona [TS]

00:10:02   order would have been in 1974 I don't [TS]

00:10:05   know I've seen all the movies that were [TS]

00:10:07   in the run-up to the Avengers with the [TS]

00:10:08   exception of the incredible hulk which [TS]

00:10:10   was the edward norton and he was [TS]

00:10:13   replaced by mark ruffalo in the [TS]

00:10:15   adventures but I i saw the two Iron [TS]

00:10:17   Man's and/or in captain america and you [TS]

00:10:19   know I I think comic book familiarity is [TS]

00:10:21   not as necessary but definitely familiar [TS]

00:10:24   with those those movies that there's [TS]

00:10:27   little bits little strands especially [TS]

00:10:30   from Captain America that very clearly [TS]

00:10:31   that which Johnson we can I think did an [TS]

00:10:33   uncredited rewrite of that data that [TS]

00:10:37   that drop in here i did i did see that [TS]

00:10:40   1i didn't feel like because i saw that [TS]

00:10:42   one and because of the Iron Man's that [TS]

00:10:43   those those guys I felt like I knew what [TS]

00:10:47   they were talking about a little bit [TS]

00:10:48   more i rewatched all of them with my [TS]

00:10:51   friend and occasional and comfortable [TS]

00:10:53   panelist Tony similar before like in the [TS]

00:10:55   months leading up to the Avengers and [TS]

00:10:57   they actually aside from the fact that [TS]

00:10:58   you know they recover recast the Hulk [TS]

00:11:01   they actually hang together not that bad [TS]

00:11:03   and they just I just saw this today [TS]

00:11:04   there's a Time Warner that Marvel [TS]

00:11:05   released there is a timeline which which [TS]

00:11:07   is great because i love the section of [TS]

00:11:09   it that's like Nick Fury is big week [TS]

00:11:11   we're good like apparently like for the [TS]

00:11:13   movies are happening at the same time [TS]

00:11:14   yeah [TS]

00:11:15   Agent Coulson has to hop around to like [TS]

00:11:17   three different location they do [TS]

00:11:18   actually weave them together and in the [TS]

00:11:21   course of those movies which is [TS]

00:11:22   impressive like there's even a little [TS]

00:11:24   scene and iron man two at the end where [TS]

00:11:26   Nick theories debriefing you know Tony [TS]

00:11:28   Stark and on the tvs in the background [TS]

00:11:30   they're talking about the Hulk rampaging [TS]

00:11:32   over the college campus which I totally [TS]

00:11:35   missed the first time around but it's [TS]

00:11:37   definitely there [TS]

00:11:38   it's very little subtle background thing [TS]

00:11:40   Nick Fury project manager he has he has [TS]

00:11:43   a Gantt chart that is really ever see [TS]

00:11:46   all those displays with just wanna just [TS]

00:11:48   get the holographic display technology [TS]

00:11:51   on the shield helicarrier is really [TS]

00:11:52   wasted on Nick Fury iphone i just my [TS]

00:11:55   favorite too i don't know who made this [TS]

00:11:56   week but I just laughed so hard at the [TS]

00:11:58   it's a shame he'll never be able to see [TS]

00:12:00   his own movie in 3d for nectar it's a [TS]

00:12:06   fake or is it [TS]

00:12:08   camera on is on his patch that goes [TS]

00:12:10   right into his brain i could see in 40 [TS]

00:12:12   he's that good he's that awesome venue [TS]

00:12:15   you did you see all the movies on the [TS]

00:12:17   run up to this [TS]

00:12:18   yeah every single one of them and I [TS]

00:12:20   thought it was i I thought the Avengers [TS]

00:12:22   was it was a was a fine spectacle III is [TS]

00:12:26   it is it a great film know is pretty [TS]

00:12:28   good yeah my son loved it [TS]

00:12:31   I liked it a lot I i wanted to see it [TS]

00:12:34   again before we before we did this [TS]

00:12:35   podcast didn't get the chance but I [TS]

00:12:38   thought you know I i agree with the [TS]

00:12:41   comment you know if you're if you're you [TS]

00:12:44   know if you're a preteen or teenage boy [TS]

00:12:47   you know if this if I were that age now [TS]

00:12:49   I would be head over heels for this for [TS]

00:12:52   the Avengers I thought I thought it [TS]

00:12:54   worked well i mean i thought it was [TS]

00:12:55   delivered everything that you wanted it [TS]

00:12:58   was favorite fairly smart about it and [TS]

00:13:02   you know he had you had your great [TS]

00:13:04   fights and you had some you had some [TS]

00:13:06   decent dialogue my only real complaint [TS]

00:13:07   about it was I thought I thought Hawkeye [TS]

00:13:12   and BlackWidow were sort of [TS]

00:13:15   underdeveloped in the Hawkeye in [TS]

00:13:18   particular was a laser-like are you know [TS]

00:13:22   he's possessed for most of the Yeah Yeah [TS]

00:13:24   right it's tough it's tough when you're [TS]

00:13:26   the two humans in the group full of [TS]

00:13:28   superheroes right like after the world's [TS]

00:13:30   best assassins but like it's a little [TS]

00:13:32   rough but that's okay because the earth [TS]

00:13:34   is being invaded by aliens who can be [TS]

00:13:35   taken down by a guy with a bow and arrow [TS]

00:13:37   set and a woman with a common [TS]

00:13:39   commercially available handgun recover [TS]

00:13:41   who two handguns Andy come on [TS]

00:13:43   oh wait a minute wait a minute there [TS]

00:13:45   were cops there too if only they'd [TS]

00:13:47   started firing into the air maybe they [TS]

00:13:49   could end this in about two minutes [TS]

00:13:50   instead of the 20 minutes it took to [TS]

00:13:52   defeat the entire alien invasion no skin [TS]

00:13:54   tight outfits and you're forgetting no [TS]

00:13:56   skin tight outfits [TS]

00:13:57   she's a much better shot than those cops [TS]

00:13:59   she ancient shield can create a [TS]

00:14:01   Helicarrier of 800 million tons that can [TS]

00:14:04   hover and 3d holographic technology they [TS]

00:14:07   cannot develop a zipper that can stay up [TS]

00:14:09   to the neckline of a female recruit they [TS]

00:14:11   can they don't want to [TS]

00:14:13   ah the researchers the zipper that stays [TS]

00:14:16   open just the right amount that's where [TS]

00:14:18   the hard for sure you can make a zipper [TS]

00:14:19   the state totally upwards over the falls [TS]

00:14:21   down but can you [TS]

00:14:21   take one that stays in the exact right [TS]

00:14:23   position that's the secret [TS]

00:14:24   I think they did a nice job with her in [TS]

00:14:26   that opening scene with her though I [TS]

00:14:27   mean I don't know I enjoyed that the [TS]

00:14:29   scene where she's being interrogated was [TS]

00:14:30   a very joss whedon scene and then she [TS]

00:14:33   disappeared for the rest of the movie [TS]

00:14:34   yeah I mean well that's that again you [TS]

00:14:36   have to divvy up this time between six [TS]

00:14:38   different characters so you know [TS]

00:14:40   everybody got a little bit of time but [TS]

00:14:41   but there was still another program I've [TS]

00:14:44   had a big problem with the Black Widow [TS]

00:14:46   because she had a common malady and [TS]

00:14:49   action movies she had invulnerable [TS]

00:14:50   female action hero syndrome where we [TS]

00:14:53   can't really care a damn about this [TS]

00:14:55   character because it's impossible to [TS]

00:14:56   land a punch on her it's impossible for [TS]

00:14:58   the screenwriter to have her show any [TS]

00:15:00   amount of vulnerability or who put any [TS]

00:15:02   challenge before her that she isn't [TS]

00:15:04   forty percent over qualified to handle [TS]

00:15:06   all on around anything about ellen [TS]

00:15:09   ripley is one of the remains is the [TS]

00:15:11   greatest female action hero action [TS]

00:15:13   character in movies because she keeps [TS]

00:15:15   getting the the snot kicked out of her [TS]

00:15:18   but Kim becoming back and surrounding it [TS]

00:15:19   she keeps having problems which he then [TS]

00:15:21   has to solve black widow was melba toast [TS]

00:15:24   just dry and uninteresting because as [TS]

00:15:26   you know how long that fight sequence [TS]

00:15:28   with Hawkeye go did ha Kyle and one [TS]

00:15:30   single punch [TS]

00:15:32   was there any sort of action ever taken [TS]

00:15:35   against her that she had to take the [TS]

00:15:37   blow or in any way get hurt or or [TS]

00:15:40   affected that scene where she's like [TS]

00:15:42   questioning loci that here i'm thinking [TS]

00:15:45   of his early movie so I still have a lot [TS]

00:15:46   of faith in it but in this flick that [TS]

00:15:48   could actually turn out to be pretty [TS]

00:15:49   good at home and look he's really [TS]

00:15:51   getting into her head and the great this [TS]

00:15:54   is where we actually find her to be [TS]

00:15:55   developed as a real characters know it [TS]

00:15:57   turns out that she was just playing him [TS]

00:15:59   all along to get the information that [TS]

00:16:01   she needed again she's absolutely [TS]

00:16:03   invulnerable we cannot risk of creating [TS]

00:16:06   a character who that's female and real [TS]

00:16:08   at the same time she's terrified when [TS]

00:16:10   the Hulk appears no i mean that that is [TS]

00:16:12   she is she is kinda freaked out and and [TS]

00:16:14   and extremely vulnerable in those scenes [TS]

00:16:17   and we keep cutting nonsensically though [TS]

00:16:19   I was like that that didn't ring true to [TS]

00:16:22   me because like out now she's going to [TS]

00:16:23   be scared but the Hang she's scared of [TS]

00:16:24   this is the same woman that was totally [TS]

00:16:26   not scared and for the rest of the movie [TS]

00:16:28   and much more dangerous situation so [TS]

00:16:29   he's turning green and my foot is [TS]

00:16:31   trapped and I'm terrified to make sense [TS]

00:16:33   to me I assume the reason for that is [TS]

00:16:34   that there really [TS]

00:16:35   try to get across the fact that the Hulk [TS]

00:16:36   is not the hottest air is supposed to be [TS]

00:16:39   terrifying [TS]

00:16:39   he can do anything on control movement [TS]

00:16:41   ok but if it again this is this blaze [TS]

00:16:44   the incompetents of the screenplay when [TS]

00:16:46   it the screenplay needs the hope to be [TS]

00:16:48   an unstoppable uncontrollable killing [TS]

00:16:51   machine [TS]

00:16:51   he's on the Helicarrier now he's gonna [TS]

00:16:53   tear the whole place apart because he [TS]

00:16:54   has no focus and direction he's just [TS]

00:16:57   wanting destruction just as the Hulk is [TS]

00:16:59   defined as in a classical way but the [TS]

00:17:01   end of the movie we need the Hulk to not [TS]

00:17:03   to simply say oh I'm gonna start beating [TS]

00:17:05   the crap out of these colorful humans [TS]

00:17:07   that are right next to me [TS]

00:17:08   we need him to actually just attack the [TS]

00:17:10   aliens and do things that are actually [TS]

00:17:12   intelligent for the hope to do now [TS]

00:17:14   that's when the Hulk is not a random our [TS]

00:17:16   engine of destruction The Hulk is [TS]

00:17:18   actually controlled somehow by intellect [TS]

00:17:21   and then what was that thing about the [TS]

00:17:23   very end after after this whole build-up [TS]

00:17:24   about how Bruce Banner can just barely [TS]

00:17:27   key he's training himself to keep the [TS]

00:17:29   whole control and not let him out [TS]

00:17:31   turns out that he could have done that [TS]

00:17:32   anytime he wanted in a very willful [TS]

00:17:34   fashion and i'm not saying this [TS]

00:17:36   necessarily makes absolutely no sense in [TS]

00:17:39   context for the character but this is a [TS]

00:17:41   clear case of the screenwriter deciding [TS]

00:17:43   i want that I don't care this is [TS]

00:17:44   completely consistent with everything [TS]

00:17:46   we've been telling the audience all [TS]

00:17:47   along [TS]

00:17:48   at this point we're running out of [TS]

00:17:49   screen time we need the whole to do with [TS]

00:17:51   a screenwriter wants me to do and [TS]

00:17:53   therefore i'm going to redefine the [TS]

00:17:54   whole to do whatever I wanted to do so I [TS]

00:17:56   don't see what I'm not I'm not clear on [TS]

00:17:58   what you're arguing there because the [TS]

00:17:59   whole idea is that he's keeping the [TS]

00:18:01   whole can check and at the end he [TS]

00:18:04   deploys the whole key has no problem [TS]

00:18:06   letting the Hulk out his problem is [TS]

00:18:08   keeping the Hulk in well he has control [TS]

00:18:11   over in the end the whole threat of the [TS]

00:18:13   Hulk on the Helicarrier was that it when [TS]

00:18:15   the when the Hulk got out of committee [TS]

00:18:17   got out on the Helicarrier did the Hulk [TS]

00:18:19   say oh wait a minute i'm here among [TS]

00:18:21   friends I should basically sit here [TS]

00:18:22   quietly or at least go after this [TS]

00:18:24   low-key guy that everybody so upset [TS]

00:18:26   about [TS]

00:18:26   now he was wanted engine of destruction [TS]

00:18:28   who almost killed a fellow team member [TS]

00:18:30   at the end of the movie did he just [TS]

00:18:32   randomly start punching buildings that [TS]

00:18:34   he randomly attack other members of the [TS]

00:18:36   Avengers no he only went after the [TS]

00:18:38   aliens and also is the the scenes were [TS]

00:18:40   really shot as though the Hulk at focus [TS]

00:18:43   and the photo hope the whole kind of [TS]

00:18:44   purpose towards one target and not the [TS]

00:18:47   there you can simply define him as a [TS]

00:18:48   random engine of destruction when you [TS]

00:18:50   need another threat on the Helicarrier [TS]

00:18:52   and then simply redefined him when you [TS]

00:18:54   just needed someone is going to solve [TS]

00:18:55   this again these incredibly intimidating [TS]

00:18:57   aliens who can be shot by a 9-millimeter [TS]

00:18:59   gun and brought completely down about [TS]

00:19:02   that was his character arc but the ark [TS]

00:19:04   was made up of two points services you [TS]

00:19:07   ended up with with with note with no [TS]

00:19:10   line in between [TS]

00:19:11   hey wait he had a nice pep talk he had a [TS]

00:19:13   nice pep talk from that janitor that's [TS]

00:19:15   on crashed into a building [TS]

00:19:17   yeah like it felt like there was seven [TS]

00:19:19   scenes involving the hook that were [TS]

00:19:20   omitted from the movie and like I see [TS]

00:19:23   the character arc they would have liked [TS]

00:19:24   to have drama the just I guess there [TS]

00:19:26   just wasn't time to put in so you gotta [TS]

00:19:27   establish one thing up front and then at [TS]

00:19:29   the end the situation resolved then [TS]

00:19:31   there's no middle process by which she [TS]

00:19:32   resolved the situation like you i can [TS]

00:19:34   fill in the blanks myself by saying like [TS]

00:19:36   okay [TS]

00:19:37   when the hell comes upon him in a rage [TS]

00:19:39   he can't control it because it's like an [TS]

00:19:40   extension of whatever he was feeling at [TS]

00:19:42   the time you became the Hulk but if you [TS]

00:19:43   purposely becomes the Hulk the Hulk [TS]

00:19:45   inherits that purpose and like I can [TS]

00:19:47   manufacture stuff but the point that [TS]

00:19:49   wasn't in the movie was that all thats [TS]

00:19:50   all in my head I i have to have to admit [TS]

00:19:53   i was listening and trying to speak but [TS]

00:19:55   for the first 10 or 15 minutes but now [TS]

00:19:57   all I was hearing was you know it wasn't [TS]

00:20:00   as crappy everyone thought it was going [TS]

00:20:01   to be really crappy it was only mediocre [TS]

00:20:03   i didn't i didn't totally hate it I did [TS]

00:20:06   I thought I thought that before for a [TS]

00:20:07   comic book movie where we don't expect a [TS]

00:20:09   good plot if you don't want if you don't [TS]

00:20:12   think I movie needs a plot you know it's [TS]

00:20:14   actually you can actually get it down [TS]

00:20:16   your throat okay and this it's it's like [TS]

00:20:19   going to a seafood restaurant thing you [TS]

00:20:20   know what two dollar ninety-nine cent [TS]

00:20:22   baked lamb platter [TS]

00:20:24   I really thought I'd be puking my guts [TS]

00:20:25   out for three days after instead it was [TS]

00:20:28   a bland tasteless nutritionist meal that [TS]

00:20:31   i actually was able to eat my body [TS]

00:20:34   simple process [TS]

00:20:35   well did you see the spider man did you [TS]

00:20:37   see the spider-man trailer though [TS]

00:20:38   speaking of that I think right you know [TS]

00:20:40   let's compare that to how the movie that [TS]

00:20:42   you imagine the new spider-man will be [TS]

00:20:44   compared to the Avengers like you know [TS]

00:20:46   it is kind of like it is damning with [TS]

00:20:49   faint praise is to say that it wasn't [TS]

00:20:50   you know that we didn't have a grand [TS]

00:20:52   vacations anyone so terrible but I think [TS]

00:20:54   expectations do affect how much you [TS]

00:20:56   enjoy a movie not so much the how good [TS]

00:20:58   the movie actually is but it affects how [TS]

00:21:00   much you in [TS]

00:21:00   enjoy it so if you go in if you go in [TS]

00:21:03   expecting dumb entertainment and you get [TS]

00:21:04   dumb entertainment you be coming out [TS]

00:21:06   feeling satisfied it doesn't change the [TS]

00:21:08   quality of the movie like certainly if [TS]

00:21:10   you asked everyone on this panel make [TS]

00:21:11   your list of your top 500 movies the [TS]

00:21:13   avengers probably wouldn't be on it [TS]

00:21:15   right but it really does depend on how [TS]

00:21:17   you go in and like for example the [TS]

00:21:19   spider-man movie I don't think there's [TS]

00:21:21   any way I could watch that and not come [TS]

00:21:24   out being angry about it just looks [TS]

00:21:25   terrible to me [TS]

00:21:26   yeah everyone's this one I managed to go [TS]

00:21:28   in and say I don't expect much what I [TS]

00:21:30   got was a few chuckles got to see some [TS]

00:21:31   things blow up and then I left no no [TS]

00:21:33   this is the starting line for the movie [TS]

00:21:34   begins when the opening credits start [TS]

00:21:37   with the first frame of actual movie [TS]

00:21:39   whatever you expected and I i do agree [TS]

00:21:41   that you go in with certain expectations [TS]

00:21:43   i gotta admit that my expectations for [TS]

00:21:44   the first christopher nolan batman movie [TS]

00:21:46   i love Christopher Nolan I expected it [TS]

00:21:48   to be a certain minimal level of good i [TS]

00:21:50   wasn't expecting it to be fantastic but [TS]

00:21:53   by frame one of that movie that movie [TS]

00:21:55   was on its own it's my responsibility as [TS]

00:21:58   a credible film viewer to simply stop [TS]

00:22:01   thinking about what i expected it to be [TS]

00:22:03   and start seeing it as what it actually [TS]

00:22:05   was [TS]

00:22:06   I was incredible film critics sure but [TS]

00:22:08   as a viewer no fewer as of you you don't [TS]

00:22:10   you don't have a readout every I don't [TS]

00:22:12   really think that you can make it [TS]

00:22:13   anybody can make a dress sensible [TS]

00:22:15   argument about what they liked her [TS]

00:22:16   didn't like about the movie based on [TS]

00:22:18   what they thought the movie was going to [TS]

00:22:20   be the filmmakers not responsible for [TS]

00:22:21   what you thought was going to be their [TS]

00:22:23   only responsible for what had what they [TS]

00:22:25   actually put on the screen that's the [TS]

00:22:26   only thing that I'm judging joss whedon [TS]

00:22:28   on what was actually on the screen was [TS]

00:22:30   actually on the screen was again it [TS]

00:22:32   wasn't an awful movie it was just your [TS]

00:22:34   basic transformers two style on solano [TS]

00:22:38   crashing oh I think you need to watch [TS]

00:22:41   transformers two again not but there was [TS]

00:22:44   no plot no characterization just [TS]

00:22:46   flashing lights that lasted for two and [TS]

00:22:47   a half hours [TS]

00:22:48   oh i don't iike real artist did not make [TS]

00:22:50   me even smile once i was checking my was [TS]

00:22:53   checking my watch for the last 40 [TS]

00:22:54   minutes of this movie it was that I was [TS]

00:22:56   honestly surprised I wasn't already home [TS]

00:22:58   I mean saying that there's no character [TS]

00:23:00   development in the Avengers is I think I [TS]

00:23:02   think overstating the case massively [TS]

00:23:03   because okay you know what would happen [TS]

00:23:06   with this captain america think about [TS]

00:23:07   Black Widow I mean if you what does what [TS]

00:23:09   does Hawkeye want and not to be in this [TS]

00:23:12   movie Hawkeye was the worst part of the [TS]

00:23:13   moment [TS]

00:23:14   to be possessed i'm saying i don't think [TS]

00:23:16   we need to necessarily know what the [TS]

00:23:17   every single character thinks about [TS]

00:23:19   every other character again it's a [TS]

00:23:20   two-and-a-half-hour movie with seven men [TS]

00:23:22   you know characters you can basically [TS]

00:23:23   hold their own exactly you you have so [TS]

00:23:25   much time to develop these things you [TS]

00:23:27   can develop these things not just within [TS]

00:23:29   and not with an entire scene you can [TS]

00:23:30   develop these these relationship with [TS]

00:23:32   one look okay there's just no real [TS]

00:23:35   conflict the the nose I'm sorry no [TS]

00:23:38   serious conflict between these people [TS]

00:23:40   other than ok your captain america [TS]

00:23:42   you're the old guy I'm iron man I'm the [TS]

00:23:43   new guy rear ever go wait now we got a [TS]

00:23:47   common enemy now let's go find the [TS]

00:23:48   common enemy ever ver I I think you're [TS]

00:23:52   being completely unfair and I lighting [TS]

00:23:54   is the Transformers i think is actually [TS]

00:23:55   I was going to say I i think our I think [TS]

00:23:59   the reason that this movie has been [TS]

00:24:00   popular and has resonated with audiences [TS]

00:24:01   and that that it it maintained so much [TS]

00:24:04   of its box office between the first and [TS]

00:24:05   second week is that our blockbuster [TS]

00:24:07   expectations and yeah and i will use [TS]

00:24:09   that word expectations are so low that [TS]

00:24:11   so many of these movies are so terrible [TS]

00:24:13   and transformers is a great example that [TS]

00:24:15   makes a lot of money but you know having [TS]

00:24:17   seen a couple of those movies where they [TS]

00:24:19   are they are so bad they have no [TS]

00:24:22   redeeming value and on it on such [TS]

00:24:24   another level of terribleness you know I [TS]

00:24:26   this is not a perfect movie also i'm [TS]

00:24:28   very confused why you are ripping into [TS]

00:24:29   this movie to a degree and yet you said [TS]

00:24:31   you gave it like a b-minus like a so is [TS]

00:24:33   it is it a dr is it a be right because [TS]

00:24:34   in my mind i agree with you that this is [TS]

00:24:37   a be kind of movie it is not a fantastic [TS]

00:24:40   movie but the dialogue is funny i think [TS]

00:24:42   there is interesting character [TS]

00:24:44   interaction i think the whole interplay [TS]

00:24:45   between Tony Stark and and banner is a [TS]

00:24:49   really interesting that he tested me off [TS]

00:24:52   he kind of offers from a job and they [TS]

00:24:53   drive off at the end there's some [TS]

00:24:55   interest he's the only one Tony Stark is [TS]

00:24:57   the only one who trusts that banner is [TS]

00:24:59   actually going to come back and not run [TS]

00:25:00   away it and that's not a huge story arc [TS]

00:25:03   but there are little bits that that pull [TS]

00:25:05   you through those characters it you know [TS]

00:25:07   and I found it that the action was [TS]

00:25:08   following below in a way that the [TS]

00:25:10   Transformers movies are our i would say [TS]

00:25:13   incompetently directed where you can't [TS]

00:25:15   you actually don't even know where you [TS]

00:25:17   are what you're seeing and although the [TS]

00:25:18   plot is a silly plot in many ways I just [TS]

00:25:22   I for me this movie succeeds a [TS]

00:25:27   in so many different ways given the [TS]

00:25:31   given the Givens of this film which is [TS]

00:25:33   you've gotta stuff seven you know seven [TS]

00:25:36   superheroes in it and and you have no [TS]

00:25:39   choice in the matter [TS]

00:25:40   and I realized that that's knowing that [TS]

00:25:42   there's a you know Marvel cabal but [TS]

00:25:44   saying just Whedon yeah you know [TS]

00:25:46   here here's your bag of stuff make a [TS]

00:25:48   movie out of this you know we don't care [TS]

00:25:50   what you do but but this is all you get [TS]

00:25:52   and so you know so i think the [TS]

00:25:55   Transformers comparison is really unfair [TS]

00:25:56   i think well you can say that this movie [TS]

00:25:59   isn't it isn't far from perfect without [TS]

00:26:01   saying that it is a a a soulless by [TS]

00:26:05   metal part III found the weak part of [TS]

00:26:09   the with the tie I without intending to [TS]

00:26:12   a my dark right at that one hole in your [TS]

00:26:14   armor that went right to your heart and [TS]

00:26:15   I apologize for that the low blow LOL [TS]

00:26:18   blow transformers I I stand by that but [TS]

00:26:21   I apologize for framing writer named but [TS]

00:26:24   there's your here's why I said it was a [TS]

00:26:26   b-minus movie and this is this is [TS]

00:26:27   something that I actually liked about [TS]

00:26:28   the movie I can easily imagine i imagine [TS]

00:26:31   iron man 3 I imagine captain america too [TS]

00:26:34   i imagine Thor to imagine an origin [TS]

00:26:37   movie for Black Widow and Hawkeye and [TS]

00:26:40   and I imagine the next attempt at Marvel [TS]

00:26:42   to reboot and create a whole franchise [TS]

00:26:44   and I think iron man 3 get lucky okay [TS]

00:26:48   we'll get back look into expectations [TS]

00:26:49   here just only as a as a mathematical [TS]

00:26:51   thing i'm expecting iron man 3 to have [TS]

00:26:53   26 minutes of good stuff in it I'm [TS]

00:26:56   expecting captain america to have maybe [TS]

00:26:58   18 minutes with a good stuff in it and [TS]

00:27:00   so on and so on and so on and I feel so [TS]

00:27:01   this is two-and-a-half this like sort of [TS]

00:27:03   two-and-a-half-hour montage of only the [TS]

00:27:06   good parts of all these five movies that [TS]

00:27:09   are probably going to get made but [TS]

00:27:10   you're probably not to be terribly [TS]

00:27:11   interested in seeing and also when I [TS]

00:27:14   spend my my 11 bucks or that my case [TS]

00:27:16   eight bucks for matinee together and I [TS]

00:27:18   it's okay to be entertained by flashing [TS]

00:27:21   lights good smell good smashy-smashy [TS]

00:27:23   really great action sequences and there [TS]

00:27:25   are some really fantastic action [TS]

00:27:27   sequences here and I think that does [TS]

00:27:29   deliver on that on that way I think that [TS]

00:27:31   Roger Ebert really delivered the money [TS]

00:27:33   quote by saying that is exactly the [TS]

00:27:35   superhero movie that superhero fans want [TS]

00:27:38   it is not the superhero movie that that [TS]

00:27:39   superhero fan [TS]

00:27:40   just deserve so decent enough that is [TS]

00:27:44   not good enough though is negative and [TS]

00:27:46   it's good enough for be- if you're about [TS]

00:27:49   it if and I'm not responsible for what [TS]

00:27:51   other people think about this movie if [TS]

00:27:53   you--if anyway if everybody else thought [TS]

00:27:55   that was a really good solid effort [TS]

00:27:56   that's fine i'm not challenging that I'm [TS]

00:27:58   only stating my own personal opinion my [TS]

00:28:00   fundamental problems with it are that I [TS]

00:28:02   really do see basic story structure [TS]

00:28:06   flaws with it because you start off with [TS]

00:28:09   a problem of every single really great [TS]

00:28:11   action movie you're always moving [TS]

00:28:12   towards one goal there could be false [TS]

00:28:15   Dunn's towards that goal [TS]

00:28:17   I mean Ellen Ripley is her goal is to [TS]

00:28:19   get herself and Newt off of that off of [TS]

00:28:21   the planet into safety and you think [TS]

00:28:23   that ok good she's gonna make it before [TS]

00:28:25   the self-destruct sequence ends all she [TS]

00:28:27   has to do is cross over here and get the [TS]

00:28:28   elevator [TS]

00:28:29   holy crap she's in the alien Queens next [TS]

00:28:31   we've got a whole new movie now but but [TS]

00:28:33   the goal is still the same goal with [TS]

00:28:35   this one [TS]

00:28:36   oh my god we got it low key is this [TS]

00:28:37   really incredible badass villain at [TS]

00:28:39   least in the first third of the movie we [TS]

00:28:40   gotta stop him from opening this portal [TS]

00:28:42   i'll bring this massive invasion flee [TS]

00:28:43   away he we could we screwed up okay [TS]

00:28:45   we've got to fight off these massive [TS]

00:28:47   invasion [TS]

00:28:48   oh wait no we have to we have to we have [TS]

00:28:50   to stop this nuclear missile that [TS]

00:28:51   somehow been fired for some reason from [TS]

00:28:53   hitting midtown Manhattan you can't keep [TS]

00:28:55   changing the end this definition of your [TS]

00:28:58   movie and they've done it three times [TS]

00:28:59   the other thing is that there's the [TS]

00:29:02   entire I got the talk about how [TS]

00:29:04   wonderful love these action sequences [TS]

00:29:06   are the whole Helicarrier in peril [TS]

00:29:09   sequence fantastic start to finish but [TS]

00:29:12   then after it of course there's that's [TS]

00:29:13   the at the end of the sequence in any [TS]

00:29:15   movies like now let's give 10 minutes of [TS]

00:29:17   exposition scenes let the audience catch [TS]

00:29:19   their breath so I'm catching my breath I [TS]

00:29:21   realized that wow that entire scene was [TS]

00:29:23   absolutely pointless we could cut that [TS]

00:29:26   entire sequence and so long sequence out [TS]

00:29:29   of the movie [TS]

00:29:30   collapse the work begins and ends and [TS]

00:29:32   cut then been pasted those two ends of [TS]

00:29:33   the movie together the movie would not [TS]

00:29:35   be affected there was no reason for that [TS]

00:29:38   seem to exist except to have this big [TS]

00:29:41   action sequence in which the Helicarrier [TS]

00:29:43   is imperil you don't think there's a [TS]

00:29:44   sequence in there to actually get the [TS]

00:29:46   people to work together because I [TS]

00:29:47   thought that was for me the big part of [TS]

00:29:49   that point was that the you know we had [TS]

00:29:50   people who are at each other's throats [TS]

00:29:52   before that and actually found a point [TS]

00:29:53   with [TS]

00:29:54   aight we need to work together in order [TS]

00:29:55   to actually get out of this Jam before [TS]

00:29:57   we all buy it there's no there's already [TS]

00:29:59   sequence before that and after that does [TS]

00:30:01   that [TS]

00:30:02   what annoyed me is that why they are [TS]

00:30:04   included the the script was not agile [TS]

00:30:06   enough to really explain what loki was [TS]

00:30:08   doing aboard the Helicarrier there's [TS]

00:30:10   something there's some bits of dialogue [TS]

00:30:12   that indicate that Loki's on the [TS]

00:30:14   Helicarrier because he got full of [TS]

00:30:16   himself and full of ego and he didn't [TS]

00:30:17   realize that he was in danger of being [TS]

00:30:19   captured [TS]

00:30:20   there's no other data log that dedicated [TS]

00:30:22   that no this is part of his plan so that [TS]

00:30:24   he could be on the Helicarrier [TS]

00:30:25   influencing events and then there'd be a [TS]

00:30:28   big barrel the moment that he could [TS]

00:30:29   incite from inside the Helicarrier at [TS]

00:30:32   the end i will again in that moment [TS]

00:30:35   after those moments after the scene i'm [TS]

00:30:37   thinking there really is no reason for [TS]

00:30:39   low key to put himself on board the [TS]

00:30:41   Helicarrier and if i'm confused as to [TS]

00:30:43   why that whole sequence existed or while [TS]

00:30:45   okie wound up on board that way why he [TS]

00:30:48   decided to stick around like that that's [TS]

00:30:50   got iphone as though i'm a careful and a [TS]

00:30:53   viewer that that's the fault of the [TS]

00:30:54   screenplay I'm well I'm willing to stick [TS]

00:30:56   my neck out and say that no it's not [TS]

00:30:57   because i wasn't paying attention it was [TS]

00:30:58   because I think that's a flaw in the [TS]

00:31:00   screenplay and I all I won't go to other [TS]

00:31:02   things that I think are just basically [TS]

00:31:03   wrong with the way this movie is [TS]

00:31:05   structured but it's just such [TS]

00:31:06   fundamental problems that i think would [TS]

00:31:08   have been eliminated and the [TS]

00:31:09   conceptually speaking would've been [TS]

00:31:11   eliminated and up in a preliminary draft [TS]

00:31:13   the screenplay where you're looking at [TS]

00:31:15   that big wall of notecards saying oh [TS]

00:31:17   great sequence great sequence great [TS]

00:31:18   sequence for a sequence you have [TS]

00:31:19   unfortunately this is not necessary we [TS]

00:31:21   can't really justify how that happens so [TS]

00:31:23   either have to create that justification [TS]

00:31:25   or if you remove these scenes [TS]

00:31:27   that's why I was saying that I felt it [TS]

00:31:29   was a really great story board but with [TS]

00:31:31   no story so so John siracusa I'd like to [TS]

00:31:35   congratulate you you are not the most [TS]

00:31:37   negative person on the podcast this one [TS]

00:31:39   is one here let's book is like it [TS]

00:31:41   because there's only one thing that I [TS]

00:31:43   really disagree with andy about like [TS]

00:31:44   everything he said that that's bad about [TS]

00:31:46   the movies right different things that [TS]

00:31:48   are bad about the movie that the breath [TS]

00:31:49   where I part ways with them i think is [TS]

00:31:51   is the idea that I guess we're doing two [TS]

00:31:53   different things here i would give this [TS]

00:31:55   movie a C or a c-minus [TS]

00:31:57   ah but I would give my experience of [TS]

00:31:58   watching the movie plus it and I'm [TS]

00:32:01   separating like how good is this movie [TS]

00:32:03   in terms of did you make a good movie [TS]

00:32:04   versus how much that i enjoy when we [TS]

00:32:06   we've all enjoyed Tara [TS]

00:32:07   the movies sometimes you can enjoy them [TS]

00:32:09   because they're terrible and part of my [TS]

00:32:11   enjoyment of this was because like I'm [TS]

00:32:12   enjoying the sloppiness the silliness of [TS]

00:32:14   a put these flaws that he's pointing out [TS]

00:32:16   of the movie are real like everything he [TS]

00:32:18   said about why the heck is lucky there [TS]

00:32:19   and it's confusing and there's lots of [TS]

00:32:21   flabby part of the end with a flying [TS]

00:32:22   around with these aliens who we don't [TS]

00:32:24   care about and it's like it just yet but [TS]

00:32:26   but my experience of watching movies [TS]

00:32:29   about getting about with expectations [TS]

00:32:30   like I'm paying money to be entertained [TS]

00:32:32   for a short period of time and I'm able [TS]

00:32:33   to separate how good a movie is it [TS]

00:32:36   versus how much should I enjoy my night [TS]

00:32:37   out going to watch this movie you know [TS]

00:32:39   what I mean I and so everything that he [TS]

00:32:42   said about the movie i agree without hit [TS]

00:32:44   here's my my attempt to get them again [TS]

00:32:47   inside and his head is that I know I [TS]

00:32:49   happen to know that Andy does read comic [TS]

00:32:51   books and probably from his perspective [TS]

00:32:53   and he knows these characters probably [TS]

00:32:56   thinks they deserved a lot better than [TS]

00:32:58   they got and I can relate to that like [TS]

00:32:59   where you know there's a property that [TS]

00:33:01   you take seriously or derive great [TS]

00:33:03   enjoyment of and so make some sloppy [TS]

00:33:05   movie out of it and you get angry about [TS]

00:33:07   it because you're like you know those [TS]

00:33:09   Ted though these guys like they don't [TS]

00:33:11   deserve to be in a stupid sloppy movie [TS]

00:33:12   it's as if like for example someone took [TS]

00:33:14   out a lord of the rings and made some [TS]

00:33:16   silly schlocky summer action movie we're [TS]

00:33:19   going to get the ring but I mean [TS]

00:33:20   somebody argue that they actually did [TS]

00:33:21   that but like you know I'm gonna pick [TS]

00:33:23   another property that you know and you [TS]

00:33:26   know part of it i would be or you know [TS]

00:33:28   or the Star Wars prequels for that [TS]

00:33:29   matter like there's some property that [TS]

00:33:31   you feel like deserves respect like for [TS]

00:33:32   example if you're big you're big Batman [TS]

00:33:34   fan and you go to Batman Begins you're [TS]

00:33:36   like yeah that's that's what you should [TS]

00:33:38   be doing with that man but if you go to [TS]

00:33:40   batman robin and someone comes out of [TS]

00:33:41   Batman Robin goes not expected to be [TS]

00:33:43   crapping it was and I enjoyed myself you [TS]

00:33:44   get mad at that person was like what do [TS]

00:33:46   you mean to enjoy Batman and Robin don't [TS]

00:33:47   they understand the true nature of the [TS]

00:33:49   dark knight and you I i can address that [TS]

00:33:52   i'm reminded of something that Jerry [TS]

00:33:54   Seinfeld used to say when people ask you [TS]

00:33:56   all to argue get like lots of fans of [TS]

00:33:58   the Seinfeld show to your stand-up act [TS]

00:33:59   and that does that help them like on [TS]

00:34:01   your side and he said that gets me on my [TS]

00:34:04   side for the first five minutes but [TS]

00:34:06   after that i'm totally on my own there [TS]

00:34:08   they become like a normal audience again [TS]

00:34:10   and i have to their i I've seen like for [TS]

00:34:13   my saw the watchman movie they had me [TS]

00:34:16   for the first well that's probably bad [TS]

00:34:17   example because the first scene 5 [TS]

00:34:19   minutes is [TS]

00:34:20   it's just a as a mini-movie in and of [TS]

00:34:22   itself is a wonderful wonderful piece of [TS]

00:34:24   art but what I'm getting at is that I [TS]

00:34:27   didn't take very long before I sort of [TS]

00:34:29   drop away everything that I know about [TS]

00:34:31   comics and everything that I'm hoping [TS]

00:34:33   this to be I'm not I'm not 12 years old [TS]

00:34:35   and I think oh my god it's Russia ash [TS]

00:34:37   and he's walking and talking this is [TS]

00:34:39   awesome [TS]

00:34:40   it'sit's it really does a go a different [TS]

00:34:42   way [TS]

00:34:43   the only I'll say one thing my only real [TS]

00:34:45   comic book geek reaction to this whole [TS]

00:34:48   movie was I'll really like samuel l [TS]

00:34:51   jackson as Nick Fury because this is the [TS]

00:34:54   first time in any Marvel related [TS]

00:34:56   anything that I've seen Nick Fury look [TS]

00:34:59   like samuel l jackson read it [TS]

00:35:00   immediately think what a piece of crap [TS]

00:35:03   this lazy artist who didn't want to draw [TS]

00:35:06   a head of invested espionage agency and [TS]

00:35:09   actually engage the reader into thinking [TS]

00:35:11   of investing this character i know i [TS]

00:35:14   know this famous movie character that [TS]

00:35:16   looks like a badass [TS]

00:35:17   I know if I draw this character to look [TS]

00:35:19   exactly like him [TS]

00:35:20   Ellen automatically think of him as a [TS]

00:35:22   badass i don't have to actually write [TS]

00:35:24   anything this is awesome [TS]

00:35:26   so those those really the beginning of [TS]

00:35:27   the end the only bit of it where I had [TS]

00:35:30   my comic book reader brain engage in [TS]

00:35:33   that I i spent the entire two-and-a-half [TS]

00:35:35   move two and a half hours this movie as [TS]

00:35:37   a movie viewer well i kinda want to go [TS]

00:35:39   back to something and he said about food [TS]

00:35:42   you know the the the oyster plates in [TS]

00:35:45   the empty calories in the end and you go [TS]

00:35:48   to a place you go to I don't know their [TS]

00:35:50   name a chain think of a no applebees [TS]

00:35:54   terrible terrible just did you know but [TS]

00:35:58   but you know kind of what you're getting [TS]

00:36:02   then you also know you also know that if [TS]

00:36:06   you're going to a a place like any sort [TS]

00:36:10   of upscale restaurant you just you just [TS]

00:36:11   you just know and so with respect to the [TS]

00:36:14   with respect to this film as a film that [TS]

00:36:18   you know what you expect from from the [TS]

00:36:22   Avengers or from any of these Marvel [TS]

00:36:24   properties is spectacle that's what [TS]

00:36:27   you're expecting I I never expected I [TS]

00:36:32   never expect [TS]

00:36:34   did I don't know Goodfellas or something [TS]

00:36:36   I was thinking of me the films that I [TS]

00:36:39   love I mean like birds Brazil or [TS]

00:36:41   something i didn't have never expected [TS]

00:36:43   anything like that from any of these [TS]

00:36:46   films the only things that have come [TS]

00:36:49   close to that are the the Nolan Batman [TS]

00:36:53   movies maybe and one of one of your [TS]

00:36:57   favorite films Jason in mind the [TS]

00:37:00   incredibles but i i i went to the [TS]

00:37:05   Avengers thinking this is going to be [TS]

00:37:08   cool to see mid midtown Manhattan laid [TS]

00:37:11   to waste it and if you don't have to [TS]

00:37:13   worry about who the aliens are it's just [TS]

00:37:16   going to be cool to see you know mass [TS]

00:37:19   destruction done up in in beautiful CGI [TS]

00:37:22   that you know the kind of thing that you [TS]

00:37:25   you got every month back in the [TS]

00:37:27   seventies and eighties when when I was [TS]

00:37:29   you know reading The Avengers an Ironman [TS]

00:37:31   and and and those books that's that's [TS]

00:37:35   what i wanted and that's what I got I [TS]

00:37:37   got a spectacle and and funny dialogue [TS]

00:37:40   oh yeah you know for those wide [TS]

00:37:42   spectacle you would have like [TS]

00:37:43   transformers two but like I think name [TS]

00:37:45   is complaint and and my complaint anyone [TS]

00:37:47   who thinks this movie isn't a great [TS]

00:37:48   movies that we didn't even get diehard [TS]

00:37:50   where it's like a straight through [TS]

00:37:51   action movie with some kind of like you [TS]

00:37:53   can do a silly action movie and not have [TS]

00:37:55   these just big gaping plot holes and [TS]

00:37:58   wasted characters an uncompleted story [TS]

00:38:00   arc center like it can be done [TS]

00:38:02   I you know so that's not okay so cant [TS]

00:38:05   cannot be done if the Givens are that [TS]

00:38:08   we've set up to iron man movies a Hulk [TS]

00:38:11   movie a captain america movie in a [TS]

00:38:12   community you have to take these [TS]

00:38:13   characters and you have to base it on [TS]

00:38:15   the Avengers comic books to some degree [TS]

00:38:17   and you know and we've we've set up the [TS]

00:38:19   the Cosmic Cube and we set up low key [TS]

00:38:22   and then edit it [TS]

00:38:24   I mean so that's one of one of my [TS]

00:38:25   questions and I realize it doesn't make [TS]

00:38:27   the movie better or worse based on the [TS]

00:38:29   degree of difficulty but I'm not [TS]

00:38:30   convinced that a movie like diehard [TS]

00:38:32   could possibly have come out of the the [TS]

00:38:36   Givens no because you're not compared to [TS]

00:38:38   die hard here you're comparing to the [TS]

00:38:40   expendables right you're comparing to a [TS]

00:38:42   movie that's full of like you know a [TS]

00:38:44   bunch of different guys it's essentially [TS]

00:38:46   a different movie diehard isn't [TS]

00:38:47   an ensemble movie die hard is a one guy [TS]

00:38:49   vs one bad guy movie you can you imagine [TS]

00:38:52   a better movie with the same characters [TS]

00:38:54   answer i can certainly imagine a better [TS]

00:38:55   movie with the same characters [TS]

00:38:56   constraints the other day and he pointed [TS]

00:38:58   out this parts of the movie that like [TS]

00:39:00   this there was flab and there's this [TS]

00:39:02   part that didn't make sense and it [TS]

00:39:04   doesn't it takes less time to make [TS]

00:39:05   things make sense sometimes it it could [TS]

00:39:07   have been fixed up right and maybe you [TS]

00:39:11   could even argue that since this is a [TS]

00:39:12   writer-director which we don't usually [TS]

00:39:13   see in a big movie like this at this [TS]

00:39:16   level that they gave him the keys now [TS]

00:39:18   you could argue that he didn't have [TS]

00:39:21   somebody saying you need to clear you [TS]

00:39:25   need to clear this up they just sort of [TS]

00:39:26   went with it and of course his shame is [TS]

00:39:28   that he made a movie that made it you [TS]

00:39:29   know gazillion dollars but I think you [TS]

00:39:31   could argue that maybe this movie could [TS]

00:39:34   have been better as certainly could have [TS]

00:39:36   been better as is if some stuff was [TS]

00:39:38   clearer and some character relationships [TS]

00:39:40   were clear i actually think that a lot [TS]

00:39:42   of Andy's complaints about like while [TS]

00:39:43   okies not on the Helicarrier I think [TS]

00:39:45   they actually are addressed in the movie [TS]

00:39:47   I just don't think they're addressed [TS]

00:39:48   clearly enough for you to notice them [TS]

00:39:50   without studying it at which point you [TS]

00:39:52   know you're no longer enjoy the movie [TS]

00:39:54   you're studying a screenplay [TS]

00:39:55   I mean again we're talking about a guy [TS]

00:39:56   who specializes in TV shows so you know [TS]

00:39:59   a guy who works with 13 hours of stuff [TS]

00:40:01   yeah [TS]

00:40:02   again I I'm and i am sure that there is [TS]

00:40:05   plenty of stuff that was also cut out of [TS]

00:40:07   this movie right i mean i think i heard [TS]

00:40:08   him reference the fact that they had [TS]

00:40:10   some stuff with the with the love [TS]

00:40:11   interest from Captain America but [TS]

00:40:13   decided you know that just doesn't [TS]

00:40:14   doesn't fit in still doesn't everyone [TS]

00:40:16   more appendage to it to attack wouldn't [TS]

00:40:18   really true but but at the same time you [TS]

00:40:21   know if you watch captain america right [TS]

00:40:23   like you kind of find yourself wondering [TS]

00:40:25   well you know that movie ends literally [TS]

00:40:27   with the last line being him but you [TS]

00:40:29   know that's what captain america 2 is [TS]

00:40:31   for i found myself i found myself [TS]

00:40:33   wondering why captain america a lot in [TS]

00:40:34   this movie like why is he the hair at [TS]

00:40:36   all what is he doing exactly you know [TS]

00:40:40   could they have gotten a gender to pull [TS]

00:40:41   that lever I I should correct myself [TS]

00:40:44   there are two things that kind of put me [TS]

00:40:47   back in a comic viewer mode when that [TS]

00:40:49   the second thing was this i have it i [TS]

00:40:51   went through this with the captain [TS]

00:40:53   america movie too [TS]

00:40:54   I really think that you stowed Lee [TS]

00:40:56   misunderstand the character and totally [TS]

00:40:58   screw up the character if you make him [TS]

00:41:00   superhuman [TS]

00:41:01   in any way that the the hope of what [TS]

00:41:03   makes captain america such a great [TS]

00:41:05   character is that all that all that that [TS]

00:41:07   world war two mad science it just [TS]

00:41:10   brought him to the pinnacle of human of [TS]

00:41:12   human potential it didn't give him any [TS]

00:41:14   still like a vulnerable guy who can't [TS]

00:41:16   jump 20 feet he can't catch up to a [TS]

00:41:18   speeding car he's got this really [TS]

00:41:20   kick-ass or kick-ass field that's very [TS]

00:41:23   very useful also very very useful that [TS]

00:41:25   if he gets thrown into their into the [TS]

00:41:26   character cable people go into [TS]

00:41:28   hibernation you can revive them also [TS]

00:41:30   very useful but every time there was a [TS]

00:41:32   God so he's punching through the [TS]

00:41:34   punching bag and I was just lifting the [TS]

00:41:36   new one up with one hand [TS]

00:41:37   okay but that's not something that I [TS]

00:41:39   faulted the movie for but i did i just [TS]

00:41:41   had to correct that something earlier [TS]

00:41:43   but that is this is another really [TS]

00:41:45   important point that I they also feel [TS]

00:41:47   like nice we made I don't really demand [TS]

00:41:50   even that a movie be perfect and have no [TS]

00:41:52   potholes no more than I demand that a [TS]

00:41:55   magician onstage never palma card and [TS]

00:41:57   never never [TS]

00:41:59   the this never would never point the [TS]

00:42:01   actor if I'm actually looking at his [TS]

00:42:02   left hand I can't i can actually see him [TS]

00:42:04   doing the move that makes the trick work [TS]

00:42:06   early early in the two in the trick [TS]

00:42:08   though the true magic is making sure [TS]

00:42:11   you're not looking at that hand to see [TS]

00:42:14   what the floor see like the giveaway for [TS]

00:42:16   a great movie i have to like a FYI i [TS]

00:42:19   didn't understand the usual suspects the [TS]

00:42:21   first time I watched it but man it was [TS]

00:42:24   so engaging I wanted to watch the second [TS]

00:42:26   and third and four top fourth time there [TS]

00:42:28   are other movies where they're just huge [TS]

00:42:30   plot holes that didn't even occur to me [TS]

00:42:32   until the second or third or fourth time [TS]

00:42:33   I watched it I didn't want them four [TS]

00:42:35   times because because I'm an obsessed [TS]

00:42:38   fan it's because man is such a good [TS]

00:42:40   movie i want to see it again so i added [TS]

00:42:43   to the list of crimes in the Avengers is [TS]

00:42:45   that it just wasn't a good enough movie [TS]

00:42:47   that I didn't notice all the things that [TS]

00:42:49   were wrong with it the first time I [TS]

00:42:51   honestly I almost it's I admitted that I [TS]

00:42:55   felt as though I i was home from this [TS]

00:42:57   movie about 30 minutes before it ended [TS]

00:42:59   because i was just about as i was bored [TS]

00:43:02   about halfway through about 20 minutes [TS]

00:43:04   or 30 minutes after that I was actually [TS]

00:43:05   starting to laugh at some of the [TS]

00:43:07   absurdities are seeing on the screen it [TS]

00:43:09   was again a good move a good movie hides [TS]

00:43:13   its flaws by just being so cap [TS]

00:43:14   debating and bring you into this world [TS]

00:43:15   so much that you don't even you you're [TS]

00:43:18   just being the magician's telling you [TS]

00:43:19   don't look at my left hand why would you [TS]

00:43:21   want to look at my left hand there's [TS]

00:43:22   nothing interesting happening my left [TS]

00:43:23   and you want to be looking at my right [TS]

00:43:24   hand and Sweden was absolutely unable to [TS]

00:43:28   do that for two-and-a-half hours maybe I [TS]

00:43:30   got hot i'd buy this movie that because [TS]

00:43:32   i felt like i was totally immersed in it [TS]

00:43:34   you can pick up on a lot of these things [TS]

00:43:35   and united we can talk about the [TS]

00:43:38   different different expectations and [TS]

00:43:39   different you know perceptions of it but [TS]

00:43:41   you know I and their stuff you bring up [TS]

00:43:43   now and you're right you're absolutely [TS]

00:43:44   valid points and issues to be made there [TS]

00:43:46   i guess for me it comes down to didn't [TS]

00:43:48   matter to me in terms of coming out that [TS]

00:43:50   movie and feeling like I enjoyed it i [TS]

00:43:52   mean and you can draw a line and say [TS]

00:43:54   there are movies you know should we [TS]

00:43:56   expect all movies to be you know [TS]

00:43:58   critically excellent as well as [TS]

00:43:59   enjoyable or can we you know judge these [TS]

00:44:02   things on different scales I mean as [TS]

00:44:04   John pointed out i think you know [TS]

00:44:04   something like die hard or you know [TS]

00:44:06   something like that man begins yeah I [TS]

00:44:08   think this stuff is crosses over a [TS]

00:44:09   little bit they can go from being you [TS]

00:44:11   know can be both enjoyable and [TS]

00:44:13   critically excellent but at the same [TS]

00:44:15   time you know if you come out of the [TS]

00:44:17   movie in feel like you know hey I [TS]

00:44:19   enjoyed that two-and-a-half hours and [TS]

00:44:21   then doesn't matter if the plot is [TS]

00:44:22   really nonsensical that's let that stuff [TS]

00:44:25   that's definitely something if you come [TS]

00:44:27   out thinking a great experience that's [TS]

00:44:29   in that is really the the whole point [TS]

00:44:32   also I believe that it's not necessary [TS]

00:44:34   that anyone type of movie or anyone [TS]

00:44:37   movie is better than the rest [TS]

00:44:39   I feel as though there is a letter [TS]

00:44:41   regardless of how you get to the end [TS]

00:44:44   credits there are some movies that just [TS]

00:44:48   achieve a flawless victory and to say [TS]

00:44:51   that [TS]

00:44:51   raiders of the lost ark is not as good a [TS]

00:44:53   movie as the third man innocent whether [TS]

00:44:56   or not as good movies yojimbo or not as [TS]

00:44:58   good movie as Annie Hall because they're [TS]

00:45:00   totally different movies that style that [TS]

00:45:02   I don't think that makes any sense [TS]

00:45:03   whatsoever [TS]

00:45:04   the point is that when you get to that [TS]

00:45:06   end of the movie did you have just [TS]

00:45:09   there's there's some ways that don't [TS]

00:45:11   just satisfy you with by the time I got [TS]

00:45:13   to the I felt as though by the time i [TS]

00:45:15   left the theater I got my eleven dollars [TS]

00:45:16   worth [TS]

00:45:17   there's somebody that really go beyond [TS]

00:45:18   that and they just stick with you [TS]

00:45:20   I mean that there's there's there's a [TS]

00:45:22   scene in the abyss that I probably think [TS]

00:45:24   about at least once a month since the [TS]

00:45:26   first time I saw that movie [TS]

00:45:27   we're not gonna get we you know John and [TS]

00:45:30   I can get four hours out of any Star [TS]

00:45:31   Wars movie we're probably not here for [TS]

00:45:33   hours and have adventures discussion [TS]

00:45:34   absolutely on the rate we're going it's [TS]

00:45:37   so so why would I didn't want to say you [TS]

00:45:39   know a movies and I don't think this is [TS]

00:45:41   the case with windy and the Avengers [TS]

00:45:43   movies hit you in different ways i have [TS]

00:45:44   had movies that I've seen in certain [TS]

00:45:48   circumstances where it's at home or in a [TS]

00:45:49   theater that have hit me perfectly and [TS]

00:45:51   I've enjoyed the experience so much and [TS]

00:45:54   i watch it back later and I realized [TS]

00:45:56   that it's got flaws and it is the magic [TS]

00:45:58   is gone and I've also had movies that [TS]

00:46:00   everybody liked that I hated and I've [TS]

00:46:03   revisited later and gone [TS]

00:46:04   oh this is so bad you know and and so I [TS]

00:46:07   think sometimes it is about you know [TS]

00:46:11   your whether it's the point of view and [TS]

00:46:13   you can escape hype either you know that [TS]

00:46:15   you don't ever see a movie out of any [TS]

00:46:18   context of it and so you know for me I [TS]

00:46:22   went in having heard the good reviews [TS]

00:46:25   and having seen the other movies i [TS]

00:46:27   enjoyed the movie although I I could [TS]

00:46:30   list flaws that i found while I was [TS]

00:46:32   sitting there including I actually think [TS]

00:46:33   that the last part III really enjoyed [TS]

00:46:35   the last half III thought the first half [TS]

00:46:37   the building that they did that a was [TS]

00:46:40   was too slow I i dislike the first 45 [TS]

00:46:44   minutes but I came out having had a [TS]

00:46:47   great time and and actually wanting to [TS]

00:46:50   see it again which is completely opposed [TS]

00:46:53   to andy's reaction to it and I think [TS]

00:46:55   that's interesting because I don't think [TS]

00:46:56   uh on the details of [TS]

00:47:00   criticism of the flaws of the movie [TS]

00:47:01   where that far apart there are the [TS]

00:47:03   Transformers business is beyond the pale [TS]

00:47:05   but other than that but uh and yet right [TS]

00:47:09   and yet yet Andy is walking away with a [TS]

00:47:13   very different set of feelings about it [TS]

00:47:15   then that I was and I you know I i I'm [TS]

00:47:18   not a gigantic lifelong Avengers fan [TS]

00:47:20   I've seen the other Marvel movies and [TS]

00:47:21   some of them are good and some are ok [TS]

00:47:23   and yet I I came out and I do love Joss [TS]

00:47:27   Whedon's work except for dollhouse which [TS]

00:47:29   I thought was terrible but um I you know [TS]

00:47:32   I enjoyed it and I would see it and [TS]

00:47:33   would see it again and I haven't seen a [TS]

00:47:35   movie twice in the theater since the JJ [TS]

00:47:38   Abrams Star Trek movie actually it's [TS]

00:47:39   been it's been awhile and i would go see [TS]

00:47:41   this movie again because i did enjoy it [TS]

00:47:44   so I I you know I think and then dan I [TS]

00:47:46   mean and and Ben seem to be certainly in [TS]

00:47:49   that same boat and I find that [TS]

00:47:50   fascinating that we could in some ways [TS]

00:47:52   agree on the specifics of the flaws of [TS]

00:47:55   the movie and yet wildly disagree on [TS]

00:47:57   whether we thought the movie was [TS]

00:47:58   enjoyable and I don't you know I don't [TS]

00:48:00   really know how to quantify that it you [TS]

00:48:04   know about why you know that it's [TS]

00:48:05   something to be reconciled that very [TS]

00:48:07   subjective thing at that point and we [TS]

00:48:08   can we can agree or disagree you know we [TS]

00:48:10   can agree to a certain extent [TS]

00:48:11   objectiveness about whether or not this [TS]

00:48:13   movie you know is kind of fix it [TS]

00:48:16   critically excellent movie let's put it [TS]

00:48:17   that way and yet different you know [TS]

00:48:20   subjectively on whether or not we [TS]

00:48:21   enjoyed it and i think that you know [TS]

00:48:23   that's fine [TS]

00:48:24   this room for this room for everybody is [TS]

00:48:25   exactly say I'm communities [TS]

00:48:27   I'm a friend haha I maps i'm actually [TS]

00:48:30   not challenging anybody's claim that [TS]

00:48:32   they and let's say anybody anybody [TS]

00:48:35   anybody and you read it [TS]

00:48:38   exactly so I mean I i certainly think [TS]

00:48:41   its paws it's an enjoyable movie you [TS]

00:48:43   mean you mean capable of being enjoyed [TS]

00:48:46   by someone is that what type III where I [TS]

00:48:48   approve of [TS]

00:48:49   I will not I will I will I will say [TS]

00:48:53   Jason your your inner circle friends [TS]

00:48:55   here nothing can happen here that you [TS]

00:48:57   don't want to happen we just want to go [TS]

00:48:58   around the room if you just be quiet for [TS]

00:49:00   20 minutes and talk about how your [TS]

00:49:01   fandom of Joss Whedon has affected each [TS]

00:49:03   of us in our lives in turn and after [TS]

00:49:05   that after we're done talking we're [TS]

00:49:07   gonna give you two options and we hope [TS]

00:49:08   you choose the right one but it's [TS]

00:49:09   completely in your tent who wants to [TS]

00:49:11   start [TS]

00:49:12   well I found the Black Widow is very [TS]

00:49:14   much like Buffy and I've written an [TS]

00:49:16   essay about how what she means to me and [TS]

00:49:19   and how the feminism is a spout but now [TS]

00:49:22   you failed to see the parallels between [TS]

00:49:24   Buffy and the love boat where sometimes [TS]

00:49:27   they had good episodes but I saw Salina [TS]

00:49:29   very very bad i did not fail to see them [TS]

00:49:32   conduct Jason again I thought we all [TS]

00:49:36   agreed that you'd be quiet just let [TS]

00:49:38   anyone speak and turn again [TS]

00:49:40   well as the host I really can't this is [TS]

00:49:44   my therapy session I'm the therapist [TS]

00:49:46   here not you and not go daddy o's on the [TS]

00:49:48   podcast Jason this is an intervention [TS]

00:49:50   just joss whedon is that what you used [TS]

00:49:53   to collect you did it in pursuing this [TS]

00:49:54   lifestyle you've neglected to factor in [TS]

00:49:56   the fact that joss whedon is [TS]

00:49:57   unfortunately a television producer and [TS]

00:49:59   therefore has not no soul but less solar [TS]

00:50:02   then a novelist or some other movies [TS]

00:50:05   with screenwriter would have ok i wanna [TS]

00:50:07   i wanna step away from the overarching a [TS]

00:50:10   view of the movie and why Andy dislikes [TS]

00:50:14   it and why India's horribly wrong [TS]

00:50:16   no I i wanna i wanna talk about the [TS]

00:50:18   characters a little bit more and [TS]

00:50:19   specifically what I wanted to bring up [TS]

00:50:22   is the Hulk because the Hulk has had you [TS]

00:50:27   know we all of us got to see Bill Bixby [TS]

00:50:29   as as children on cps he was on the run [TS]

00:50:33   from a crusading newspaper reporter [TS]

00:50:35   don't have those anymore and he would be [TS]

00:50:39   angry and he turned into lou ferrigno [TS]

00:50:40   well not all of those cases are sorry [TS]

00:50:43   Dan all of us who are not ten years old [TS]

00:50:46   anyway that was the first place many of [TS]

00:50:48   many Americans saw the whole it and then [TS]

00:50:51   we've seen two movies angley's Hulk with [TS]

00:50:53   Eric Bana and and then the edmonton the [TS]

00:50:57   edward norton hall incredible hulk and [TS]

00:51:00   now we've got Mark Ruffalo as banner and [TS]

00:51:03   a Gruffalo ask cgi blob as the whole and [TS]

00:51:09   I so here-here's the thing i think the [TS]

00:51:12   Hulk is a really problematic character [TS]

00:51:15   yes I think you might actually make my [TS]

00:51:19   own high school girlfriend is is married [TS]

00:51:21   to the world's largest you know like [TS]

00:51:24   this [TS]

00:51:25   super fan of The Incredible Hulk he's [TS]

00:51:26   like mr. Hulk guy and i never i don't [TS]

00:51:30   understand i think you're a fan of the [TS]

00:51:31   whole iin it always baffled me like he's [TS]

00:51:33   a fan of anger or or a tornado right I [TS]

00:51:36   guess anybody who listens to John's [TS]

00:51:38   podcast probably a pic and so this is [TS]

00:51:42   the thing I liked how Banner and the [TS]

00:51:45   Hulk were handled in the Avengers i [TS]

00:51:47   think this is one of the things that [TS]

00:51:48   this movie did a pretty good job because [TS]

00:51:50   we've seen the Hulk botched I a lot [TS]

00:51:55   lately and I thought that banner was an [TS]

00:51:57   interesting character when women [TS]

00:51:58   scarlett johansson goes to get him and [TS]

00:52:01   then when he's on the Helicarrier and [TS]

00:52:03   he's talking to Tony Stark and he's got [TS]

00:52:05   you know that they have that interesting [TS]

00:52:07   interaction which I talked about earlier [TS]

00:52:09   and that the Hulk to is not just a [TS]

00:52:13   tornado and we can we can argue about [TS]

00:52:15   why he's not always that way but he has [TS]

00:52:17   some great moments including the I think [TS]

00:52:21   applause moment in the movie where he [TS]

00:52:23   gets listens to Loki speech and then [TS]

00:52:27   just use and like a rag doll just [TS]

00:52:30   smashes him around [TS]

00:52:31   um I i thought this movie was the best [TS]

00:52:35   take on the Hulk I've seen maybe ever [TS]

00:52:40   only because I feel like everybody else [TS]

00:52:42   had no idea how to use the Hulk and it [TS]

00:52:44   becomes the Hulk in and of itself is not [TS]

00:52:46   an interesting that interesting no [TS]

00:52:47   banner banner as a person is is I think [TS]

00:52:49   far more interesting especially if he's [TS]

00:52:51   just a rage monster who just got her are [TS]

00:52:52   and bashes things and it doesn't even [TS]

00:52:54   talk right right because there's no [TS]

00:52:56   motivation there's no complexity there's [TS]

00:52:58   no I mean the struggle of him not to [TS]

00:53:01   Hulk out is the interesting part of that [TS]

00:53:04   character right and i think they gave [TS]

00:53:07   Ruffalo more to do than they did in [TS]

00:53:09   either the northerner bona versions [TS]

00:53:11   which were defined solely by the fact [TS]

00:53:12   that he's on the run right he's on the [TS]

00:53:15   defensive and this time they actually [TS]

00:53:17   gave him something stuff to do that felt [TS]

00:53:18   proactive and yeah I don't know hehe [TS]

00:53:22   bring much more interesting here to me [TS]

00:53:25   than he did in either the prior to move [TS]

00:53:27   yeah i think i think the secret is that [TS]

00:53:29   the Hulk really doesn't work as a star [TS]

00:53:30   in character for all the reasons that [TS]

00:53:32   you mentioned he works very very good as [TS]

00:53:34   a supporting character or when he is [TS]

00:53:37   simply [TS]

00:53:38   that presence where imagine that that [TS]

00:53:41   they might imagine that that that toward [TS]

00:53:43   that tornado movie from about seven or [TS]

00:53:45   eight years ago where where the entire [TS]

00:53:47   movie was about the tornado as opposed [TS]

00:53:49   to everybody who the meteorologist is [TS]

00:53:52   tracking the tornado the mainland [TS]

00:53:53   visitors toss twister thank you very [TS]

00:53:54   much helen hunt with Helen with hell I [TS]

00:53:57   find that's terrible terrible movie [TS]

00:53:59   exactly but but but in terms of [TS]

00:54:02   developing story [TS]

00:54:03   you can't you you it's hard to do a [TS]

00:54:04   whole movie about that where the central [TS]

00:54:06   character is the Holt you can do a very [TS]

00:54:08   good character if he is this presidency [TS]

00:54:12   it's okay better better better example [TS]

00:54:14   the better movie imagine jaws but the [TS]

00:54:16   entire movie was from the perspective of [TS]

00:54:18   the shark it shouldn't be about the [TS]

00:54:20   shark it should be about all the people [TS]

00:54:22   of the problems of a shark represents [TS]

00:54:24   the Hulk is the villain in some ways [TS]

00:54:25   right [TS]

00:54:26   yeah even my goodness if you would like [TS]

00:54:29   to do you prefer less poverty and he [TS]

00:54:31   he's he's supremely I mean in in a genre [TS]

00:54:34   with superheroes where everybody is [TS]

00:54:36   supremely powerful and they say fight [TS]

00:54:38   you know when they're cranky but they [TS]

00:54:42   all come together and made the villain [TS]

00:54:44   has is is all-powerful and undefeatable [TS]

00:54:46   and then is easily defeated right in the [TS]

00:54:48   in this whole genre of that what the [TS]

00:54:50   Hulk is interesting about the Hulk feels [TS]

00:54:53   uncontrollable and you don't know what [TS]

00:54:55   he's going to do and he actually in [TS]

00:54:57   injects a a level of that that you don't [TS]

00:55:02   get from other superheroes that are kind [TS]

00:55:04   of more boring that the Hulk is this you [TS]

00:55:06   know uncontrollable he's a force of [TS]

00:55:08   undefined yeah exactly and and that's [TS]

00:55:10   that's great but he's not really a [TS]

00:55:13   character in and he and Andy's point is [TS]

00:55:16   not a lead in any way shape or form and [TS]

00:55:21   so the way he's deployed in the Avengers [TS]

00:55:23   in some ways it's brilliant that you [TS]

00:55:24   know because he has all of these other [TS]

00:55:27   things going on and then the Hulk just [TS]

00:55:29   needs to do his little Hulk bit which he [TS]

00:55:31   does really well and mark mark ruffalo [TS]

00:55:33   is the best banner that I've seen any [TS]

00:55:35   and anything I guess [TS]

00:55:37   oh yes got that kind of rumpled but he [TS]

00:55:40   you believe he's a scientist right you [TS]

00:55:41   believe he's a genius scientist which is [TS]

00:55:43   what banner is supposed to be and you [TS]

00:55:45   believe he's sad about this situation [TS]

00:55:47   yeah more than anything else I think you [TS]

00:55:49   believe that [TS]

00:55:50   he is working very very hard every [TS]

00:55:52   second of his life never to let his [TS]

00:55:55   emotions get out of control [TS]

00:55:58   yeah yeah I think I think and I you know [TS]

00:56:00   you can arise or lowes and and bonded to [TS]

00:56:03   a certain extent as actors but yeah [TS]

00:56:05   those movies did not they didn't really [TS]

00:56:07   do a good job of that character and it [TS]

00:56:11   never of the banner character anyways [TS]

00:56:13   for me but like India what Hulk was what [TS]

00:56:16   Bruce Banner was asked to do in this [TS]

00:56:17   movie was mostly done with that you know [TS]

00:56:19   gamma rays find the blood and whatever [TS]

00:56:21   like that was so stupid like but i [TS]

00:56:23   wanted the character I want to see more [TS]

00:56:25   of is I haven't seen the thor movie and [TS]

00:56:28   I thought he was amusing and so i think [TS]

00:56:29   i'm now going to watch the movie because [TS]

00:56:30   i think it will be funny [TS]

00:56:32   whether it's intentionally funny or not [TS]

00:56:33   and I iron man i like that and it is [TS]

00:56:36   funny and the house is actually not a [TS]

00:56:38   bad movie [TS]

00:56:39   Tony Stark is always amusing just [TS]

00:56:41   because you know a robert downey jr is [TS]

00:56:43   charismatic and you know that silly and [TS]

00:56:45   stuff i don't think that will take that [TS]

00:56:47   seriously don't take iron man himself [TS]

00:56:48   that seriously but I think that's money [TS]

00:56:50   and the but mark ruffalo Mike boy I I [TS]

00:56:53   when I saw this I thought he was the one [TS]

00:56:54   who was in that Hulk movie that I didn't [TS]

00:56:55   see and I was kind of sad to find that [TS]

00:56:57   it was at norton yeah he could I think [TS]

00:57:00   he could actually you're saying you [TS]

00:57:01   can't make the whole command character [TS]

00:57:02   you can do it probably like I like a [TS]

00:57:06   vampire movie where the vampires trying [TS]

00:57:07   not to drink other people's blood or [TS]

00:57:09   like like he's trying to contain you [TS]

00:57:11   know where the struggle is between the [TS]

00:57:13   main character who has this beast within [TS]

00:57:15   our werewolf movie worries like oh I [TS]

00:57:17   don't want to change into the werewolf [TS]

00:57:18   the werewolf is a character in a [TS]

00:57:19   werewolf movie but if you sympathize [TS]

00:57:20   with the poor guy who's to changing into [TS]

00:57:22   a werewolf or maybe changing into [TS]

00:57:24   werewolf like American Werewolf in [TS]

00:57:25   London or something you can do a good [TS]

00:57:26   Hulk movie and it's not about the Hulk [TS]

00:57:28   any more than American Werewolf in [TS]

00:57:29   London is about the werewolf but the guy [TS]

00:57:31   is the werewolf and you know banner is [TS]

00:57:33   Hulk I've only just we've only just [TS]

00:57:35   waiting on a show but a vampire doesn't [TS]

00:57:37   like Frank yeah cancer in her well [TS]

00:57:42   vampires aren't crazy rage monsters and [TS]

00:57:44   I and that arc you could do a movie with [TS]

00:57:46   that arc-like in the beginning of the [TS]

00:57:47   movie he's a raging monster and then [TS]

00:57:49   banner learns to control them and [TS]

00:57:50   actually ends up using this thing about [TS]

00:57:51   himself that he hates to do to save [TS]

00:57:53   someone he loves this Avengers was not [TS]

00:57:55   that movie but you can imagine that [TS]

00:57:57   movie existing right and i think that [TS]

00:57:59   would be a a good movie night with the [TS]

00:58:02   Hulk is lead character but involving the [TS]

00:58:04   Hulk i like i like the arc that and [TS]

00:58:07   again it may be an arc that is two [TS]

00:58:08   points and you have to sort of there [TS]

00:58:10   might be a third point but it [TS]

00:58:12   that banner has in the sense that he's [TS]

00:58:14   brought in kind of knot on his own by [TS]

00:58:17   the Black Widow and her entire shield [TS]

00:58:18   task force and when he wakes up it in [TS]

00:58:22   you know on the beach and I don't know [TS]

00:58:24   where he is like in Coney Island her I [TS]

00:58:26   mean he's in New Jersey somewhere he's [TS]

00:58:28   not in New York yet when he after he [TS]

00:58:31   dropped off the Helicarrier and uh you [TS]

00:58:34   know he could just walk away to that [TS]

00:58:37   music from The Incredible Hulk TV series [TS]

00:58:39   paladin awesome as the the right he's [TS]

00:58:43   walking over the bridge and you will [TS]

00:58:44   never see him again [TS]

00:58:45   look it up then and and and Tony Stark's [TS]

00:58:47   the only ones like where's banner and [TS]

00:58:49   everybody's like manner [TS]

00:58:50   he's not coming back are you kidding [TS]

00:58:52   because they were he's a monster and [TS]

00:58:54   he's no he's not controllable and [TS]

00:58:55   they've written them off and Tony [TS]

00:58:56   Stark's like no no he's gonna compare oh [TS]

00:58:58   right right that's the key [TS]

00:58:59   I'm like there and and he does so so [TS]

00:59:01   it's so I like that where it's like that [TS]

00:59:03   is that moment where banner is taking [TS]

00:59:05   some responsibility he has a little bit [TS]

00:59:07   of a a path that he walks down and and [TS]

00:59:09   for a character I don't know for the [TS]

00:59:11   Hulk I i was happy that the whole got a [TS]

00:59:14   little bit of that attention because the [TS]

00:59:15   Hulk is so Miss so easily miss handled [TS]

00:59:19   and for lots of good reasons [TS]

00:59:21   let's see those those other minor but I [TS]

00:59:22   i think this was i had already crossed [TS]

00:59:24   over the point of being bored with this [TS]

00:59:26   movie so maybe my immediate reaction to [TS]

00:59:29   that seem suspect but when Harry that [TS]

00:59:31   the Harry Dean Stanton type guy wasn't [TS]

00:59:33   Harry Dean Stanton who finds y-yes ankle [TS]

00:59:35   is inexplicably Harry Dean states [TS]

00:59:37   looking old [TS]

00:59:38   he's got a glowing object in the trunk [TS]

00:59:39   of his car to i really wanted better to [TS]

00:59:41   say wow that was intense [TS]

00:59:43   the terraces hulkbusters are always [TS]

00:59:46   intense but it's like it's like I would [TS]

00:59:49   like to think that someone who took the [TS]

00:59:50   screenwriting more seriously would find [TS]

00:59:53   a reason for the guy to not react though [TS]

00:59:55   yep you're about well yesterday we had [TS]

00:59:58   an enormous hooking blue guy I [TS]

00:59:58   an enormous hooking blue guy I [TS]

01:00:00   always keep a change of clothes on hand [TS]

01:00:02   in case the guy who crashes through the [TS]

01:00:03   roof from an improbable I'd need to come [TS]

01:00:05   from the naked girls but three of the [TS]

01:00:07   fiber not all of them come down naked [TS]

01:00:09   was a guy who had the blue trunks on and [TS]

01:00:11   i gave him a cocoa i think i gave her i [TS]

01:00:14   don't know why they keep crashing in [TS]

01:00:15   here but you know old happy I get paid [TS]

01:00:17   the same whether a helpfully naked guy [TS]

01:00:20   who came crashing through the roof from [TS]

01:00:21   an improbable hide or not it [TS]

01:00:23   they call me old movie you know a [TS]

01:00:25   different reason why just why it was our [TS]

01:00:29   that was an odd odd scene III I cannot [TS]

01:00:33   explain i SAT there thinking why and why [TS]

01:00:35   Harry Dean Stanton I guess why not [TS]

01:00:38   what ya oh my god it's Harry Dean [TS]

01:00:40   Stanton well because because help [TS]

01:00:41   because he makes every movie more [TS]

01:00:43   awesome that's just smart [TS]

01:00:45   sure sure I'll give you that I'm so Andy [TS]

01:00:51   speaking of your frame of mind and i [TS]

01:00:54   know john has a story about something [TS]

01:00:56   odd that happened in the theater when he [TS]

01:00:58   was watching this I'm now picturing that [TS]

01:01:00   you went down to the front of the [TS]

01:01:01   theater with a cook with the couple of [TS]

01:01:04   foot cardboard of foldable robots and [TS]

01:01:08   just began mst3k movie that as it [TS]

01:01:11   unspooled just to get to get out but [TS]

01:01:16   John can you take can you tell the story [TS]

01:01:19   of the person who was sitting next to [TS]

01:01:20   your wife in the movie theater because [TS]

01:01:21   that's just bizarre [TS]

01:01:22   it was bizarre was very bizarre to me so [TS]

01:01:24   that the person sitting out sitting next [TS]

01:01:26   to my wife I was annexed to her eye she [TS]

01:01:29   was sketching with colored pencils on a [TS]

01:01:33   pad from it from the start of the movie [TS]

01:01:35   like not like she took it out halfway [TS]

01:01:37   through and she got bored from the start [TS]

01:01:38   of the movie sketching with colored [TS]

01:01:39   pencils on a pad with a flashlight so [TS]

01:01:41   she could see the pad because it's not [TS]

01:01:43   backlit I and she was not drawing [TS]

01:01:45   pictures of the Avengers but what she [TS]

01:01:47   was doing was a lot of shading with Shh [TS]

01:01:51   Shh and that that boggles my mind [TS]

01:01:53   because it wasn't a little kid dragged [TS]

01:01:55   there by her parents didn't appear to be [TS]

01:01:58   a girl there with a boyfriend or other [TS]

01:01:59   significant other I I don't understand [TS]

01:02:02   why she was in the theater because why [TS]

01:02:04   do you go to a movie theater and draw [TS]

01:02:07   unrelated things on a pad with a [TS]

01:02:10   flashlight was it reserves really warm [TS]

01:02:12   that day maybe she just wanted to get [TS]

01:02:14   the app I was it was kicks it was it [TS]

01:02:16   tonight show there was a red sox game so [TS]

01:02:19   I found the Fenway theater I it was a [TS]

01:02:23   very strange to me and it didn't bother [TS]

01:02:25   me because I couldn't hear the shading [TS]

01:02:27   or didn't you know it wasn't like but [TS]

01:02:29   that was my cause I got you know but my [TS]

01:02:30   wife is next and kept asking her to stop [TS]

01:02:32   and she would like put the light away [TS]

01:02:34   for a second and try to cover up the [TS]

01:02:35   light and draw some more as I why are [TS]

01:02:37   you in the movies why do you think $11 [TS]

01:02:39   to be sitting here to drawing on your [TS]

01:02:41   sketch patch maybe just maybe you were [TS]

01:02:43   the subject of some sort of experiment [TS]

01:02:44   john III Hawks out and and if it was [TS]

01:02:48   actually bother but i would have been [TS]

01:02:49   much more rude about it and I would have [TS]

01:02:51   been very annoyed this is a movie like [TS]

01:02:53   this this is a question I was going to [TS]

01:02:54   ask everybody earlier who who is going [TS]

01:02:56   to see this movie again Jason are you [TS]

01:02:57   said he would and I'll probably catch it [TS]

01:03:00   on the rental when it comes out but i'd [TS]

01:03:03   like to see it again on the big screen [TS]

01:03:05   yeah if I could take my my i want to [TS]

01:03:07   show my kids a couple more the Marvel [TS]

01:03:09   movies and then I think if it's still [TS]

01:03:10   playing will take them and send Mandy is [TS]

01:03:12   not going to see this again even if it's [TS]

01:03:13   like living on TV and these detailed [TS]

01:03:16   notes all the one else I'll be honest if [TS]

01:03:19   a group of friends were going and [TS]

01:03:21   inviting me along i would go and I would [TS]

01:03:22   be very I'd be quiet for the [TS]

01:03:24   two-and-a-half hours i would probably [TS]

01:03:25   bring a sketchpad little flashlight but [TS]

01:03:27   yeah I mean like on your own it i don't [TS]

01:03:31   think it is not it's not like it's not [TS]

01:03:33   like sex in the city two I don't feel as [TS]

01:03:35   though I've been emotionally scarred by [TS]

01:03:36   the experience of seeing this movie I [TS]

01:03:38   just thought it was a mediocre movie [TS]

01:03:39   that's why i like but like it was that [TS]

01:03:40   would you netflix it would you like say [TS]

01:03:42   you're bored some night you're like I'm [TS]

01:03:44   gonna watch a movie tonight and how this [TS]

01:03:45   came out of Netflix imagine it's [TS]

01:03:47   actually on streaming would you stream [TS]

01:03:48   it would you watching Navy yes but yes [TS]

01:03:50   maybe see this this is this is a quirk [TS]

01:03:52   of mine in which when I see a movie I [TS]

01:03:54   don't like the my foot my second [TS]

01:03:56   favorite kind of movie behind the movies [TS]

01:03:58   that I legitimately like are the ones [TS]

01:04:00   where I just see lots of laws of them [TS]

01:04:02   because i feel as though if I [TS]

01:04:03   keep watching it also understand what [TS]

01:04:06   specifically I didn't like about it and [TS]

01:04:08   so when it comes to streaming and I will [TS]

01:04:10   but i will be doing in a snarky sort of [TS]

01:04:12   way or a smug way I really want to see [TS]

01:04:14   it again at a later date when I'm [TS]

01:04:17   removed from my first experience with it [TS]

01:04:19   i want to come amber but i'm running a [TS]

01:04:21   blog post to mexico after my tweet i got [TS]

01:04:23   a lot of questions about a lot of [TS]

01:04:24   reactions and people who were really [TS]

01:04:26   interested in like exactly why I didn't [TS]

01:04:28   like it so I went into three much time I [TS]

01:04:31   really want to look back at that block [TS]

01:04:33   peace and see was I on the money or what [TS]

01:04:36   is there something here that I just [TS]

01:04:37   didn't see the first time so yeah I i [TS]

01:04:40   definitely will see the second time I I [TS]

01:04:41   don't think I've ever going to see this [TS]

01:04:42   movie again unless I don't pay Sonya my [TS]

01:04:45   son gets all did not mean like even if I [TS]

01:04:47   don't think I'm netflix it was on TV I [TS]

01:04:49   don't think i would watch it unless I [TS]

01:04:51   was trying to show it to my son because [TS]

01:04:52   i think you know for your old gear once [TS]

01:04:54   it becomes 12 and maybe want to see that [TS]

01:04:56   but like and I don't think that and [TS]

01:04:57   again I enjoyed the experience of [TS]

01:04:59   watching was just not one of those [TS]

01:05:00   movies that I ever really have an urge [TS]

01:05:01   just to watch a second time and there's [TS]

01:05:04   a whole whole bunch of movies that fall [TS]

01:05:05   into this category some movies after you [TS]

01:05:06   see it like I've got to see that again [TS]

01:05:08   and some like here's an example that [TS]

01:05:10   will probably be controversial [TS]

01:05:11   I don't think I'm ever gonna see [TS]

01:05:12   inception again I saw it once in the [TS]

01:05:13   theater I was like me and like I'm never [TS]

01:05:16   gonna watch that movie again you know if [TS]

01:05:17   it was on TV I would not so inception [TS]

01:05:19   let me watch again but I you know I [TS]

01:05:22   don't know if that speaks to that I've [TS]

01:05:26   compartmentalizing these movies that [TS]

01:05:27   don't connect everybody just didn't [TS]

01:05:29   connect with me or I feel like there's [TS]

01:05:30   nothing else I can get out of it or that [TS]

01:05:32   it can only be downhill from there but [TS]

01:05:33   that's that's how I felt about the [TS]

01:05:35   adventures [TS]

01:05:36   I might watch inception again only [TS]

01:05:38   because it got so much praise and I [TS]

01:05:41   better hate it and I found well I found [TS]

01:05:44   it I found it really worthy of analysis [TS]

01:05:49   because I thought about it a lot for [TS]

01:05:52   days afterward but the in the end I [TS]

01:05:55   decided that I really didn't like it so [TS]

01:05:57   if i watch it again it would be liked it [TS]

01:05:59   so was I just in a bad mood because [TS]

01:06:01   everybody else seemed to like it and i [TS]

01:06:03   decided i hate it but I i may also just [TS]

01:06:05   say why would i inflict this movie on [TS]

01:06:07   myself a second time I think I [TS]

01:06:09   understand why people like Inception the [TS]

01:06:10   same way i think i understand why people [TS]

01:06:12   like the adventures in some respects I [TS]

01:06:13   understand why people like the [TS]

01:06:14   Transformers it you know I but I just [TS]

01:06:17   like I look down to the people who like [TS]

01:06:19   the Transformers and I guess I'm one of [TS]

01:06:20   the people who was able to an ironic we [TS]

01:06:22   enjoyed the goofiness of the Avengers [TS]

01:06:25   and then say okay well I saw that movie [TS]

01:06:26   you know that it was a it was a it's [TS]

01:06:30   it's a summer blockbuster silly movie [TS]

01:06:32   yeah I i will be much more angry if the [TS]

01:06:36   next dark knight movie is awful and in [TS]

01:06:37   fact i'm getting increasingly angry [TS]

01:06:39   about the dark knight which criticized [TS]

01:06:40   as I feel that the Batman begin with so [TS]

01:06:42   much better movie like this so much but [TS]

01:06:44   the flaws in the dark night when I came [TS]

01:06:46   out of it I was like yeah these problems [TS]

01:06:48   but unlike the more just like sits with [TS]

01:06:50   me and I've seen it a second time like [TS]

01:06:52   man this is not as good as Batman Begins [TS]

01:06:54   what happened here why does everybody [TS]

01:06:55   like this movie I don't know any legends [TS]

01:06:59   good in it but don't keep watching it I [TS]

01:07:00   think every time you watch The Dark [TS]

01:07:02   Knight gets worse [TS]

01:07:04   well I've only seen that I don't see the [TS]

01:07:05   ones because that movie I really don't [TS]

01:07:07   want to see again [TS]

01:07:08   actually I'm planning to rewatch that [TS]

01:07:09   and batman begins before the next one is [TS]

01:07:12   how I do things now do my homework i [TS]

01:07:15   I've seen I've seen inception two or [TS]

01:07:18   three times I'm I I don't think it's a [TS]

01:07:20   perfect movie I think it's a really good [TS]

01:07:21   movie it's I think it has basic flaws [TS]

01:07:24   that it just can't get around you really [TS]

01:07:26   have to start a movie like that with 45 [TS]

01:07:28   minutes of just laying out just read [TS]

01:07:30   taking the the top off the box the board [TS]

01:07:33   game and reading off the rules making [TS]

01:07:34   sure everybody around the table [TS]

01:07:36   understands what happens when you pass [TS]

01:07:38   by go and what the rules are for this [TS]

01:07:40   that and the other is that that kind of [TS]

01:07:42   limits how great a movie could be i did [TS]

01:07:44   like the second Batman movie because [TS]

01:07:46   they really i felt as though there was a [TS]

01:07:48   real purpose to it in which in there's a [TS]

01:07:51   natural consequence to me there was a [TS]

01:07:53   natural consequence to what Bruce Wayne [TS]

01:07:56   went through for the first movie and [TS]

01:07:58   that consequence was am I just going to [TS]

01:08:01   single-handedly solve all the problems [TS]

01:08:03   in Gotham and because batman was [TS]

01:08:05   fighting Punk's Gotham will be fine [TS]

01:08:08   no I have to take a larger pro at larger [TS]

01:08:10   stance basically a lot more holistic [TS]

01:08:12   stance towards fixing everything and [TS]

01:08:14   also realizing that the fact that I'm [TS]

01:08:16   here dressed as a bat which was my own [TS]

01:08:18   little psychosis to begin with his it is [TS]

01:08:21   in itself creating brand new problems up [TS]

01:08:23   in the form of a brand new hire class of [TS]

01:08:26   psychotic will set fire to 60 million [TS]

01:08:29   dollars just to make the point that he [TS]

01:08:31   doesn't give a damn about the 60 million [TS]

01:08:33   dollars [TS]

01:08:33   it really is about just being randomly [TS]

01:08:35   randomly randomly randomly sick against [TS]

01:08:38   the against the population once the [TS]

01:08:40   third movie is that we should do a we [TS]

01:08:42   should do an episode about the the three [TS]

01:08:44   movies because we've beaten we just [TS]

01:08:47   superhero movie episode will be to beat [TS]

01:08:49   on it a little bit but I don't get too [TS]

01:08:51   far field here this is not the [TS]

01:08:52   christopher nolan i will i'll i will [TS]

01:08:54   just say that that will be one hell of [TS]

01:08:56   an achievement if he can do through or [TS]

01:08:58   it in [TS]

01:08:58   I'm sorry should I should limit this to [TS]

01:09:00   my own personal perspective i don't [TS]

01:09:02   think i've ever seen their that there [TS]

01:09:04   are very few movies movie series where [TS]

01:09:06   123 all great movies they don't lose it [TS]

01:09:10   by the third movie no spider-man 3 well [TS]

01:09:12   into to interject on that point and [TS]

01:09:14   bring it back up [TS]

01:09:15   a bit i I'm very interested by the fact [TS]

01:09:17   that you know the no one approach is to [TS]

01:09:20   say it's done right and sure warner [TS]

01:09:23   brothers will reboot it because [TS]

01:09:24   inevitably they will but from an [TS]

01:09:26   artistic point of view you know what to [TS]

01:09:28   say i'm gonna you know basically tell [TS]

01:09:30   this story it's got a beginning a middle [TS]

01:09:31   and an end and that's unusual in and I [TS]

01:09:35   think superhero friend in any sort of [TS]

01:09:36   franchise movie to a large extent but [TS]

01:09:38   especially in superhero movies because [TS]

01:09:40   you know coming from a background where [TS]

01:09:42   we have titles that have lasted you know [TS]

01:09:44   50 or 60 years right stuff doesn't end [TS]

01:09:47   there always needs to be and that's the [TS]

01:09:50   trap that spider-man fell into you know [TS]

01:09:51   they're in terms of we need to keep [TS]

01:09:53   outdoing ourselves and keep having [TS]

01:09:55   bigger and better things and in some [TS]

01:09:56   ways the Avengers is the pinnacle of [TS]

01:09:58   that right it's the city not just we're [TS]

01:10:00   going to take a whole bunch of movies [TS]

01:10:01   about what character and you know make [TS]

01:10:03   them more and more spectacular every [TS]

01:10:04   time it's we're gonna take you know [TS]

01:10:06   movies about six different characters [TS]

01:10:07   and make them even more spectacular so [TS]

01:10:10   you know the problem here really becomes [TS]

01:10:12   in some ways it's like a superhero arms [TS]

01:10:13   race you know where you've got well now [TS]

01:10:15   we have to see Thor 2 and Captain [TS]

01:10:17   America 2 and then the avengers 2 has to [TS]

01:10:19   build on that and it's like a certain [TS]

01:10:20   point you just can't sustain the weight [TS]

01:10:22   and our liberties angela has a billion [TS]

01:10:25   dollars that scary as hell right and so [TS]

01:10:27   they had to say you know again the sort [TS]

01:10:30   of come full circle and when we were [TS]

01:10:32   talking earlier about expectations you [TS]

01:10:34   know where we do have a lot of [TS]

01:10:35   expectations for good of real about the [TS]

01:10:37   fact that you know we've seen how [TS]

01:10:38   superhero movies tend to progress and [TS]

01:10:40   franchises where they feel like we have [TS]

01:10:42   to keep outdoing the last installment [TS]

01:10:44   and I think you know no one has done for [TS]

01:10:46   the most part a good job of proving that [TS]

01:10:48   you don't necessarily have to do that [TS]

01:10:49   although you know as we could say there [TS]

01:10:51   is the argument that the the dark knight [TS]

01:10:53   is overloaded in some ways but you know [TS]

01:10:57   the Avengers did a fairly good job of [TS]

01:10:58   this saying like hey we can we can bring [TS]

01:11:01   all these things together and in turn [TS]

01:11:02   this into a franchise movie that doesn't [TS]

01:11:03   necessarily have to be like whoo utterly [TS]

01:11:06   spectacular to the point that collapses [TS]

01:11:08   under its own weight i don't know i [TS]

01:11:10   think i think that's an interesting [TS]

01:11:11   dilemma that superhero movies have to [TS]

01:11:13   fend with is this idea of things just go [TS]

01:11:15   on forever right you can't nobody dies [TS]

01:11:18   it's super here with me what one real [TS]

01:11:20   one really big boon is that now that we [TS]

01:11:22   have a superhero movie that has become [TS]

01:11:23   the number-one grossing movie almost [TS]

01:11:26   certainly become the number-one grossing [TS]

01:11:27   movie of all time [TS]

01:11:28   that means a lot of other studios are [TS]

01:11:31   going to start to take a risk on other [TS]

01:11:33   superior properties and so I I there's [TS]

01:11:36   so many great characters out there that [TS]

01:11:38   that just need that 250 million dollar [TS]

01:11:41   budget and Fantastic Four could have [TS]

01:11:43   been a great movie particularly if you [TS]

01:11:45   get rid of the entire origin and just [TS]

01:11:47   start from day one page one [TS]

01:11:49   they are super hero team we understand [TS]

01:11:51   that concept just move over from there [TS]

01:11:53   but you can't do that as a [TS]

01:11:54   hundred-million-dollar movie you really [TS]

01:11:56   have to spend the money and put all the [TS]

01:11:58   screen and so I would love to see a [TS]

01:12:00   Wonder Woman movie that's actually made [TS]

01:12:02   that they I want to see them actually [TS]

01:12:04   crack that story i'd love to see justice [TS]

01:12:06   league movie and all these things maybe [TS]

01:12:08   are going under happens [TS]

01:12:09   Warner Brothers kicking himself now [TS]

01:12:10   right thinking wait how come we had [TS]

01:12:12   Superman Batman movies how come we [TS]

01:12:14   didn't do this [TS]

01:12:14   joss whedon is that guy we fired off of [TS]

01:12:16   the Wonder Woman project okay good [TS]

01:12:19   hey didn't you bring the actress he [TS]

01:12:20   wanted to play wonder woman to his [TS]

01:12:22   adventures [TS]

01:12:22   cobie smulders is isn't it and she was [TS]

01:12:25   one of the rumor people but right you [TS]

01:12:26   are meaty stated that she was his choice [TS]

01:12:28   for his choice interesting i would have [TS]

01:12:30   been interesting choice [TS]

01:12:31   so actually something and he said that I [TS]

01:12:33   want to mention and as critical as i [TS]

01:12:34   have been about the dark knight i will [TS]

01:12:37   say this i feel like Christopher Nolan's [TS]

01:12:39   movies even even though including [TS]

01:12:42   inception actually he makes ambitious [TS]

01:12:45   movies he he is trying lots of stuff is [TS]

01:12:49   ambitious is the word I would use right [TS]

01:12:51   and in if I I feel like joss whedon [TS]

01:12:55   personally I I feel he did a good job of [TS]

01:12:57   assembling a crowd-pleasing movie out of [TS]

01:13:00   the component parts that he was given by [TS]

01:13:01   Marvel I wouldn't call this ambitious [TS]

01:13:05   right I I conceptually in any way I I [TS]

01:13:09   feel like this was he was given a task [TS]

01:13:11   and he performed it admirably better [TS]

01:13:14   than we could have expected [TS]

01:13:17   it's not the same feeling as something [TS]

01:13:18   like in the dark knight where I feel [TS]

01:13:20   which I dislike but I felt he was very [TS]

01:13:24   ambitious and trying he's trying to make [TS]

01:13:26   a fantastic motion picture period me [TS]

01:13:29   that did the Batman movies feel more [TS]

01:13:30   like drama where's the Avengers feels [TS]

01:13:32   more like how many really action and [TS]

01:13:34   then where is action and yeah [TS]

01:13:36   yeah exactly but I think the you know [TS]

01:13:38   the Batman movies are more you know in [TS]

01:13:40   some ways you look at the movies in and [TS]

01:13:42   see the third one obviously but feels it [TS]

01:13:44   reads kinda like a tragedy in a lot of [TS]

01:13:46   ways [TS]

01:13:46   yeah but already it really really is [TS]

01:13:48   universally the Batman movies i think [TS]

01:13:51   that it's not necessarily doesn't it [TS]

01:13:52   doesn't necessarily have to be about the [TS]

01:13:54   superhero comic book it really is the [TS]

01:13:56   state the standard story of here is a [TS]

01:13:58   guy who never had this traumatic event [TS]

01:14:01   that is shaped his entire life he finds [TS]

01:14:03   himself at a crossroads where you can [TS]

01:14:05   either do this the knock-on effects of [TS]

01:14:07   this event can either [TS]

01:14:08   absolutely and utterly destroy him or he [TS]

01:14:11   can turn that vengeance elsewhere and [TS]

01:14:14   something positive and that's just a [TS]

01:14:15   classic movie mode teeth you just [TS]

01:14:17   articulated so many different ways but I [TS]

01:14:19   guess something just occurred to me is [TS]

01:14:21   maybe that maybe the best of the fairest [TS]

01:14:24   way for me to really talk about the [TS]

01:14:26   Avengers is Islam like that show on the [TS]

01:14:29   Food Network shows chopped where they [TS]

01:14:31   get a basket of ingredients that four [TS]

01:14:34   different chefs have to they don't know [TS]

01:14:35   what's in the basket they see it they [TS]

01:14:37   have 20 minutes to make something out of [TS]

01:14:38   it where the theme ingredients in the [TS]

01:14:40   basket were ground hamburger a roll or [TS]

01:14:43   lettuce tomato and tartar sauce and joss [TS]

01:14:46   whedon made a hamburger out of that and [TS]

01:14:49   that's perfectly fine and it was a [TS]

01:14:50   perfect hamburger but a guy like Chris [TS]

01:14:52   Nolan said that's too obvious let's do [TS]

01:14:55   something brand-new the people haven't [TS]

01:14:56   really seen before are totally expecting [TS]

01:14:58   out of this before and they're two very [TS]

01:15:01   good meals but one of them just you'll [TS]

01:15:03   be telling people you don't you don't [TS]

01:15:05   tell people about a month later [TS]

01:15:06   oh my god this guy he took ground beef [TS]

01:15:09   and a ham and a hamburger role and [TS]

01:15:11   lettuce and tomato and made it into a [TS]

01:15:13   hamburger you forget about that and in [TS]

01:15:15   10 minutes later [TS]

01:15:17   well and you know there's some [TS]

01:15:18   interesting subjects i think that are [TS]

01:15:19   you know I think there isn't some [TS]

01:15:22   interesting topics that for like an [TS]

01:15:23   adventure movie I didn't I i haven't [TS]

01:15:25   followed a lot of superhero comics in [TS]

01:15:27   many years but i was intrigued by at [TS]

01:15:29   least the premise of the civil war [TS]

01:15:31   storyline that the Avengers happened did [TS]

01:15:34   what was the last 34 years ago and i [TS]

01:15:38   think that there is potentially an [TS]

01:15:39   interesting storyline in that then again [TS]

01:15:40   I don't know if you do it in a 2822 [TS]

01:15:43   two-and-a-half-hour movie but for me [TS]

01:15:45   especially you know the question for me [TS]

01:15:47   and maybe this is something that comes [TS]

01:15:48   up more in [TS]

01:15:49   in captain america 2 but this idea of [TS]

01:15:51   Captain America as a character who is [TS]

01:15:53   now you know the man out of time and [TS]

01:15:55   left at a point where you know Cee the [TS]

01:15:58   whole power struggle of the world was [TS]

01:16:00   very different right like there was this [TS]

01:16:02   idea like America were on the side of [TS]

01:16:04   the good were beaten up you know the [TS]

01:16:05   Nazis their evil unquestionably and now [TS]

01:16:07   all of a sudden you know things are much [TS]

01:16:09   less black and white in the modern day [TS]

01:16:11   and so you know I i would really love to [TS]

01:16:14   see a movie either adventures of captain [TS]

01:16:15   america along those lines were there is [TS]

01:16:17   more shades of gray and more discussion [TS]

01:16:20   about like you know well what does it [TS]

01:16:22   mean to have these superheroes together [TS]

01:16:24   you know are they all on the same side [TS]

01:16:25   do they really have different agendas [TS]

01:16:26   maybe you know I don't know I think that [TS]

01:16:29   that could be an interesting rich vein [TS]

01:16:31   there [TS]

01:16:31   I don't know that you have to get that [TS]

01:16:32   serious especially with the with the [TS]

01:16:34   Marvel Universe I mean it looks like [TS]

01:16:36   they're heading out [TS]

01:16:37   it almost seems as though if what i've [TS]

01:16:41   read is correct we will be leaving Earth [TS]

01:16:45   more you know as things go forward and [TS]

01:16:49   that it's going to become more of a more [TS]

01:16:53   of an interplanetary type of thing and [TS]

01:16:55   how that worked great for Green Lantern [TS]

01:16:57   well maybe that maybe they'll get it [TS]

01:17:00   right maybe they want mean you know that [TS]

01:17:02   the last then the the credit scene with [TS]

01:17:06   the the appearance of Thanos I had to [TS]

01:17:09   look him up by the wait for you out [TS]

01:17:10   there but maybe maybe that's the way [TS]

01:17:13   it's headed and maybe you know I mean [TS]

01:17:15   how do you yeah I give them a certain [TS]

01:17:19   amount of credit for trying to make some [TS]

01:17:23   of these things plausible for the big [TS]

01:17:26   screen in ways that they you could [TS]

01:17:28   simply take you know you know take as [TS]

01:17:30   they came at you in the pages of a comic [TS]

01:17:33   book I mean how do you do how do you do [TS]

01:17:36   the mandarin i don't know i mean well i [TS]

01:17:39   guess we're gonna find out and iron man [TS]

01:17:40   3 somehow but more importantly how do [TS]

01:17:43   you do the Mandarin without seriously [TS]

01:17:45   cheesing off the Chinese but yeah well [TS]

01:17:48   that's right and casting bank Kingsley [TS]

01:17:50   presume it's a matter of mandarin for [TS]

01:17:52   the modern era a new mandarin he's a [TS]

01:17:55   matter and orange an orange magnet is [TS]

01:17:57   trying to take over the world supply of [TS]

01:17:59   oranges here here's a here's our dusty [TS]

01:18:01   and the memory [TS]

01:18:02   he reached he renounced his natural [TS]

01:18:04   citizenship and the citizenship of every [TS]

01:18:06   other nation in the world and had [TS]

01:18:09   cosmetic surgery so he doesn't look like [TS]

01:18:11   he's from anyone if he did that because [TS]

01:18:14   he had a lot of facebook stock topical [TS]

01:18:18   reference take actually I billionaire [TS]

01:18:21   III what i wanted to mention also that a [TS]

01:18:25   and I i think this came up in the [TS]

01:18:28   previous podcast one of the things I i [TS]

01:18:30   well rewatching captain america actually [TS]

01:18:32   with my kids the other week i was sad as [TS]

01:18:36   I was when it's not the first time that [TS]

01:18:37   because of the Avengers and because this [TS]

01:18:39   movie was coming they they do the story [TS]

01:18:43   where he is frozen and thaws out in the [TS]

01:18:46   present day which is perfectly [TS]

01:18:47   interesting story to tell [TS]

01:18:49   except I I felt like they really missed [TS]

01:18:52   the opportunity to tell more stories in [TS]

01:18:55   the past with the Howling Commandos [TS]

01:18:57   which we see only briefly [TS]

01:18:59   yeah that's not in a montage which is [TS]

01:19:01   among the blood moons that film but yeah [TS]

01:19:03   and um I was actually thinking that it [TS]

01:19:06   would be nice if they made a captain [TS]

01:19:07   america 2 obviously they're gonna have [TS]

01:19:10   to deal with him in the present day [TS]

01:19:11   because of the Avengers I I'm actually [TS]

01:19:13   kind of hoping that they might do a [TS]

01:19:14   little back and forth kind of thing [TS]

01:19:16   where they can flash back into world war [TS]

01:19:18   two because I really thought that was [TS]

01:19:21   some of the you know that was that was [TS]

01:19:22   some really big potential stuff in that [TS]

01:19:24   movie in and they they had to blow [TS]

01:19:26   through it because they had to get to [TS]

01:19:27   the point where they get him waking up [TS]

01:19:29   with in Times Square with with Nick Fury [TS]

01:19:32   his eye patch and I thought that was [TS]

01:19:34   unfortunate so that's another thing is I [TS]

01:19:36   can't blame the Avengers for really [TS]

01:19:38   thought you were gonna say Nick Fury and [TS]

01:19:39   his ipad and Nick Fury is just there is [TS]

01:19:42   playing angry birds you know he nick [TS]

01:19:45   fury he will the entire the entire [TS]

01:19:47   Helicarrier is probably just run from an [TS]

01:19:49   ipad while they play Galaga they did [TS]

01:19:52   that they did it they got illegal mame [TS]

01:19:54   roms that's what I do that's all rogue [TS]

01:19:57   they've gone I I'll be I'll be very [TS]

01:20:00   impressed if they can make Captain [TS]

01:20:03   America work I didn't think that the [TS]

01:20:04   character work in the first movie I [TS]

01:20:06   didn't think you really work in the [TS]

01:20:07   second movie i think it's possible that [TS]

01:20:09   in this this could be just my own [TS]

01:20:11   perspective but i don't think that the [TS]

01:20:13   leave when they redesigned the captain [TS]

01:20:14   america costume [TS]

01:20:15   the second time he still just looks like [TS]

01:20:18   oh that just looks so weird and so [TS]

01:20:20   totally not like anything that anybody [TS]

01:20:23   would design for anybody to actually [TS]

01:20:25   wear and I know that they justified it a [TS]

01:20:27   little bit by making it designed by a [TS]

01:20:30   big fan boy of Captain America who would [TS]

01:20:33   never deviate from the world war two [TS]

01:20:35   bond poster in any way but it's like [TS]

01:20:37   yeah you what you really need to what [TS]

01:20:39   you really need to communicate about [TS]

01:20:40   Captain America is that he is really [TS]

01:20:44   really is on some level right about [TS]

01:20:46   everything and you may disagree with it [TS]

01:20:48   may be very inconvenient but he's right [TS]

01:20:51   about almost everything in the fact that [TS]

01:20:52   he has that kind of credibility is the [TS]

01:20:54   reason why at least in the comic books [TS]

01:20:55   the Norse god of thunder will happily [TS]

01:20:58   take orders from him and that's not [TS]

01:20:59   something that you can really turn in [TS]

01:21:01   about an hour's worth of movie [TS]

01:21:03   development that really something that [TS]

01:21:04   took decades of different stories to [TS]

01:21:07   really develop that credibility so i'll [TS]

01:21:09   be really impressive anybody can really [TS]

01:21:11   make Captain America work on the on the [TS]

01:21:12   screen [TS]

01:21:13   yeah because the problem in the Marvel [TS]

01:21:16   Universe now that I know much about it [TS]

01:21:18   beyond this movie but can you can you [TS]

01:21:20   really have a coherent story with these [TS]

01:21:23   people in it that's not kind of a jokey [TS]

01:21:26   just Whedon kind of sarcastic comment [TS]

01:21:28   think because there's there's actually [TS]

01:21:30   no way you could do a serious taking [TS]

01:21:32   this because they're their powers don't [TS]

01:21:35   line up with any sort of reasonable grid [TS]

01:21:37   and so you i was really hope I was [TS]

01:21:40   really hoping that they would have made [TS]

01:21:41   them it was really hoping that they [TS]

01:21:43   would find an excuse for 24 y Hawkeye [TS]

01:21:46   really makes sense in this movie why why [TS]

01:21:49   would somebody chooses the PO an arrow [TS]

01:21:51   at and i was thinking i was at was as i [TS]

01:21:54   was thinking about it saying well maybe [TS]

01:21:56   the way that you do is you say that he's [TS]

01:21:58   not necessarily there to shoot some of [TS]

01:22:00   the bow and arrow is like sort of a [TS]

01:22:01   tactician but on the on that point [TS]

01:22:04   security scanners are looking for [TS]

01:22:08   firearms and bullets they are looking [TS]

01:22:10   for pieces of wood and string so maybe [TS]

01:22:12   that's why he chose that weapon became [TS]

01:22:13   really good at it but it does come down [TS]

01:22:15   to seriously that at one point when when [TS]

01:22:18   shield is monitoring this huge fight for [TS]

01:22:21   the survival of Earth when they see how [TS]

01:22:24   shocked i fired an arrow at that little [TS]

01:22:27   ship and it exploded [TS]

01:22:28   don't we have like a jillion advanced [TS]

01:22:31   tactical fighters on this well we just [TS]

01:22:33   send some of those fighters down there [TS]

01:22:34   because it seems like maybe these guys [TS]

01:22:36   are really easy to kill a bow and arrow [TS]

01:22:38   and you know well they were exploding [TS]

01:22:40   tip but like even when you just have [TS]

01:22:42   like Iron Man vs thor are you gonna get [TS]

01:22:45   like a demigod versus a guy in a robot's [TS]

01:22:48   like it doesn't end the people who have [TS]

01:22:49   no powers you can't put them all in the [TS]

01:22:51   same movie and then make them fight each [TS]

01:22:53   other like why would you even why would [TS]

01:22:54   you allow the defenseless woman in a [TS]

01:22:56   skin-tight suit even on that battlefield [TS]

01:22:57   she's got a handgun she'll be fine she's [TS]

01:22:59   magic right you mean you brought this up [TS]

01:23:01   before I love the bit where she was just [TS]

01:23:03   oh look there's a loaf there's an alien [TS]

01:23:05   like a little like you know jetski fine [TS]

01:23:07   i know i'll jump from this rooftop I [TS]

01:23:09   just grabbed onto it and then good [TS]

01:23:11   happens yeah you can fly you know their [TS]

01:23:13   way through their ways to solve these [TS]

01:23:14   problems either he either we did not [TS]

01:23:17   find the solutions or didn't care to [TS]

01:23:18   find this loop and I think the [TS]

01:23:20   characters themselves like their powers [TS]

01:23:22   that you can't it's like having batman [TS]

01:23:24   superman movie together unless Batman is [TS]

01:23:26   everything Batman owns is made of [TS]

01:23:27   kryptonite that movie is over [TS]

01:23:29   ok for first of all a batman superman [TS]

01:23:31   movie would be everything okay [TS]

01:23:35   everything because you better is that [TS]

01:23:39   you'd better believe that one of [TS]

01:23:41   batman's most strongest qualities is [TS]

01:23:43   that he has thought about everything as [TS]

01:23:46   mr. he's eating kryptonite first [TS]

01:23:47   breakfast cereal [TS]

01:23:48   thanks i know some somewhere in the bad [TS]

01:23:51   k if he has a solution for getting rid [TS]

01:23:53   of Superman if need be and that's that's [TS]

01:23:56   that's why the big Richard but i love i [TS]

01:23:59   did like the fact that came back the [TS]

01:24:00   Avengers they at least found a way to [TS]

01:24:02   say here's why [TS]

01:24:03   haka is an asset to shield but because [TS]

01:24:05   he's the bow and arrow guy but he's the [TS]

01:24:07   guy you put in the helicopter to observe [TS]

01:24:09   the battle and see the patterns of [TS]

01:24:11   battle that are happening saying okay we [TS]

01:24:13   really need to move our forces right [TS]

01:24:14   here because that got that platoon over [TS]

01:24:16   there swinging in of over forty third [TS]

01:24:18   street if we get two guys with the [TS]

01:24:20   robber appropriate weapons and under at [TS]

01:24:22   an elevated position on this corner we [TS]

01:24:24   can take them up before they can invade [TS]

01:24:26   this place but they didn't really stick [TS]

01:24:28   with that they just simply said the guy [TS]

01:24:30   you got 33 arrows remember you can't [TS]

01:24:34   fire more than 33 of these before you [TS]

01:24:36   have to go back to the joke shop for [TS]

01:24:37   more arrows [TS]

01:24:38   ok so we're running a temp before [TS]

01:24:42   so I have one more topic which I wanted [TS]

01:24:44   to bring up which is there a couple [TS]

01:24:46   things in this movie that i found odd [TS]

01:24:48   for a summer blockbuster we have the [TS]

01:24:53   fact that I shield is using the Cosmic [TS]

01:24:58   Cube technology to build weapons like [TS]

01:25:01   the red skull built-in captain america [TS]

01:25:03   and therefore and the heroes find this [TS]

01:25:07   out and they're very angry at nick fury [TS]

01:25:09   and if you're basically kind of like [TS]

01:25:10   goes away for the rest of the movie [TS]

01:25:12   because they're mad at him because he's [TS]

01:25:14   using these cosmic powers that shouldn't [TS]

01:25:15   be meddled with to build lots of weapons [TS]

01:25:17   for his tactical you know level 2 or [TS]

01:25:20   whatever it is [TS]

01:25:22   tactical squad and then separate from [TS]

01:25:24   that there's also the shadowy group of [TS]

01:25:27   of silhouette Eduardo world's leader [TS]

01:25:30   figure type conspirators who who make [TS]

01:25:34   decisions like let's send a nuclear [TS]

01:25:36   missile into the middle of Manhattan and [TS]

01:25:39   I found these I found these kind of odd [TS]

01:25:41   choices that there that in the midst of [TS]

01:25:43   this summer blockbusters like a least a [TS]

01:25:46   hand wave that's like oh the you know [TS]

01:25:49   the the military-industrial government [TS]

01:25:52   shadowy conspiracy complex they're bad [TS]

01:25:54   they're very bad it just it just seemed [TS]

01:25:57   totally the am I the only one it seemed [TS]

01:25:59   very strong are bad [TS]

01:26:01   well yes but it just sort of bizarre [TS]

01:26:05   what was it i mean i'm not even sure a [TS]

01:26:07   message that they had the big screens [TS]

01:26:09   and so once you've got those six big [TS]

01:26:10   screens like well I guess we have to [TS]

01:26:12   have an international conspiracy or we [TS]

01:26:13   do with these big screens because if [TS]

01:26:15   they were all i can to buy the nike [TS]

01:26:17   purchasing department yeah they were on [TS]

01:26:19   iphone screens it's not it's not [TS]

01:26:21   menacing they were gonna there were only [TS]

01:26:22   going to be five members of the [TS]

01:26:23   conspiracy but they had the extra screen [TS]

01:26:25   so they brought in an extra guy [TS]

01:26:26   yeah those are those my favorite [TS]

01:26:27   characters in the movie remember those [TS]

01:26:29   guys in the screen for what great [TS]

01:26:30   characters you silhouette one silhouette [TS]

01:26:33   to silhouette female i mean i think i [TS]

01:26:35   think that goes towards making making [TS]

01:26:38   Nick Fury more ambiguous like he's not [TS]

01:26:40   just totally the guys want to manipulate [TS]

01:26:42   them with pretending you found the cards [TS]

01:26:43   are the body and like it makes him at [TS]

01:26:45   least have some interest otherwise [TS]

01:26:46   otherwise here it comes [TS]

01:26:48   Broyles from fringe where he's like why [TS]

01:26:50   that is even there just keep me informed [TS]

01:26:52   yeah okay alright alright well just [TS]

01:26:54   talking but please Nick Fury hell as one [TS]

01:26:57   time he has one characteristic that [TS]

01:26:59   actually could possibly make him a [TS]

01:27:01   character and that his will is that he's [TS]

01:27:03   willing to do whatever it takes to [TS]

01:27:04   manipulate these people into it is that [TS]

01:27:05   they don't even you know but that mean [TS]

01:27:07   again he gets his his five minutes of [TS]

01:27:09   character development in the movie and [TS]

01:27:10   then they move on [TS]

01:27:11   yeah yeah I just I just thought it was [TS]

01:27:13   strange that the midst of the superhero [TS]

01:27:15   action that we get the shadowy [TS]

01:27:18   government figures who decide that [TS]

01:27:19   they're going to bomb Manhattan with a [TS]

01:27:21   ball we know it's not going to happen [TS]

01:27:23   because all our heroes it's just odd [TS]

01:27:24   that it was even there I just wish that [TS]

01:27:26   I was an ok element I just wish they'd [TS]

01:27:29   clarify as usual he just we'd just did [TS]

01:27:32   not want to define anything and really [TS]

01:27:34   settle on anything it makes sense if [TS]

01:27:36   especially if you're going to be using [TS]

01:27:37   shield in the future [TS]

01:27:39   it makes sense to sort of established [TS]

01:27:41   here is what shield actually is there [TS]

01:27:43   not a law unto themselves are not a [TS]

01:27:45   bunch of rogues are financed by I don't [TS]

01:27:47   know [TS]

01:27:48   tungsten mind from alien the alien slave [TS]

01:27:50   camps or they are actually there's [TS]

01:27:53   there's some sort of a joint the joint [TS]

01:27:55   decision of the will of the above world [TS]

01:27:58   governments say we need a way to sort of [TS]

01:28:00   combat threats that we can't directly go [TS]

01:28:03   through for individual like un sort of [TS]

01:28:05   stuff that I sort of inferred that [TS]

01:28:07   that's what was going on there's some [TS]

01:28:08   sort of an advisory council that has to [TS]

01:28:11   approve what shield does even though [TS]

01:28:13   fury has a whole bunch of autonomy but [TS]

01:28:16   as were saying about an hour [TS]

01:28:18   so there's so much that we just have to [TS]

01:28:20   fill in it is this is this is the madlib [TS]

01:28:22   script where there's like there's a line [TS]

01:28:24   that we have to pick a verb to describe [TS]

01:28:26   exactly what's happening sort of settle [TS]

01:28:28   it in our minds we're sort of would hope [TS]

01:28:30   the screenwriter would have written that [TS]

01:28:31   down for us [TS]

01:28:33   well i think you know you know [TS]

01:28:35   everything you need to know what the [TS]

01:28:36   fact that you know it's one of those [TS]

01:28:38   guys is powers boothe it so it's gotta [TS]

01:28:44   be it's gotta be bad [TS]

01:28:46   sinister here so here's the thing if you [TS]

01:28:49   are the member of a committee of some [TS]

01:28:51   sort that hit that has international [TS]

01:28:53   security ramifications you have a choice [TS]

01:28:57   the guy when they're prepping your your [TS]

01:28:59   your camera setup to have your screen [TS]

01:29:02   the Helicarrier they say would you like [TS]

01:29:05   to be lit from the front or the back if [TS]

01:29:08   you choose the back that's a bad sign [TS]

01:29:11   I just choose choose neither that's a [TS]

01:29:14   bad sign that's like that's like saying [TS]

01:29:15   we picked a logo for our organization [TS]

01:29:17   and its a skull just no no bad idea [TS]

01:29:22   let's not blame them it's probably skype [TS]

01:29:24   doing some sort of auto exposure and [TS]

01:29:26   screwing it up [TS]

01:29:27   I just assumed it was a google hangout [TS]

01:29:28   if this it is it's nick fury google [TS]

01:29:34   hangout the most the most sinister [TS]

01:29:36   google hang in there accidentally [TS]

01:29:37   broadcasting it live to is the worst [TS]

01:29:39   part [TS]

01:29:40   wait is this is this way on the internet [TS]

01:29:42   on the internet now [TS]

01:29:43   oh crap yeah screening or five [TS]

01:29:48   chatroulette guy the take baths was [TS]

01:29:52   naked from the waist down what do you [TS]

01:29:53   think we should do about these aliens up [TS]

01:29:55   no we're not going to do that and you [TS]

01:29:57   can just stop doing that right now [TS]

01:29:58   you're so self scarlet witch's that you [TS]

01:30:01   put your sequels take your mask off and [TS]

01:30:05   put your top back home [TS]

01:30:06   ok so we are going to close that what [TS]

01:30:11   this was very interesting but we're [TS]

01:30:13   going to end it here [TS]

01:30:14   I i want to thank my panel of [TS]

01:30:17   superheroes who have come so far to talk [TS]

01:30:22   about this fascinating and successful [TS]

01:30:24   and yet you know divisive blue movie [TS]

01:30:29   first off bu you heard him [TS]

01:30:32   youyou saw him as a mild-mannered [TS]

01:30:33   scientists and then he did indeed become [TS]

01:30:35   as predicted a green rage monster and [TS]

01:30:38   Enoch oh thank you for being here [TS]

01:30:39   I think we agreed that I was Charles [TS]

01:30:41   Anderson Winchester the person with [TS]

01:30:43   superior surgical skills who some house [TS]

01:30:45   seems aloof because of his inability to [TS]

01:30:47   really connect with people i reject to [TS]

01:30:50   this idea that I hope especially a [TS]

01:30:52   friend going if you're gonna give me a [TS]

01:30:53   franchise you're gonna be the franchise [TS]

01:30:55   that failed twice as going to a third [TS]

01:30:57   third field reboot I reject this count [TS]

01:31:00   Gordon and a splash again this is your [TS]

01:31:04   comment and not mine and debts as as [TS]

01:31:06   with my comments about I'm trying to [TS]

01:31:08   make him angry but he's not Latin [TS]

01:31:09   rational and you're being emotional it's [TS]

01:31:12   not know now he's turning into mr. Spock [TS]

01:31:14   dr. strange more like it [TS]

01:31:16   it's fair who've in alta I'll take dr. [TS]

01:31:19   strange okay good i will that will take [TS]

01:31:21   dr. strange thank you very much that was [TS]

01:31:22   our iron man ben boychuk thank you been [TS]

01:31:25   for being here [TS]

01:31:26   a pleasure as always dan morgan who did [TS]

01:31:29   you want to be I want you know I decides [TS]

01:31:32   which i think i can be Coulson if you're [TS]

01:31:34   going to be fury i think i should be [TS]

01:31:36   Coulson that is I mean I got shot at [TS]

01:31:38   this is your last podcast yes it will [TS]

01:31:40   never be back at least we are choosing [TS]

01:31:42   to be male characters I wouldn't advise [TS]

01:31:44   it can I be the Enchantress ok so my so [TS]

01:31:48   Dan more in my very own Agent Coulson it [TS]

01:31:50   was nice knowing you it's a shame you're [TS]

01:31:51   a week away from retirement and thanks [TS]

01:31:53   for being here less at least I got to [TS]

01:31:55   shoot looking ahead pleasure being your [TS]

01:31:57   case and for whom i leaving out why it's [TS]

01:32:00   john siracusa who I don't even know who [TS]

01:32:03   you were I think I ended up actually [TS]

01:32:04   picking Scarlett Johansson's character [TS]

01:32:06   whose name I can't remember the Black [TS]

01:32:07   Widow forgettable our own black widow [TS]

01:32:09   John siracusa that's me [TS]

01:32:12   thanks for being here thank you Jason [TS]

01:32:14   thanks for not thanks for being the [TS]

01:32:17   sidekick to captain bring-down instead [TS]

01:32:20   of being captain bring-down it was new [TS]

01:32:22   and different interesting [TS]

01:32:23   we're not bringing it down we're keeping [TS]

01:32:26   it real keep it real [TS]

01:32:27   excellent that just simply there's a car [TS]

01:32:29   waiting outside that will take you to a [TS]

01:32:31   facility that can help you with this [TS]

01:32:33   Joss Whedon problem but it will only [TS]

01:32:35   take you there if you yourself agree [TS]

01:32:38   that this job sweden first fixation is [TS]

01:32:40   starting to destroy your life and the [TS]

01:32:42   lives of those around you and this is [TS]

01:32:43   the time for me to ask you yes or no [TS]

01:32:45   will you get into that car Jason and I i [TS]

01:32:49   feel i don't need to get in the car [TS]

01:32:51   because the beautiful thing about the [TS]

01:32:52   podcast as therapy wait for my book on [TS]

01:32:56   podcasts therapy will be out next spring [TS]

01:33:00   once the podcast is done and the [TS]

01:33:03   recording session ends i will awake [TS]

01:33:05   refreshed and will not remember anything [TS]

01:33:08   about this and will be completely healed [TS]

01:33:11   like this was a beautiful three [TS]

01:33:13   exactly i can quit anytime I like [TS]

01:33:17   that's right podcasts are what keep me [TS]

01:33:20   sane [TS]

01:33:20   I get watch your netflix another season [TS]

01:33:24   of dollhouse I can't watch you do tho [TS]

01:33:26   cell [TS]

01:33:27   oh here's a protip don't watch any [TS]

01:33:30   season of dollhouse [TS]

01:33:32   anyway I'm gonna make just waiting tank [TS]

01:33:33   but that's okay [TS]

01:33:35   they wouldn't like me when I'm angry or [TS]

01:33:36   I wouldn't like them when they're i I've [TS]

01:33:39   lost that anyway another couple coats [TS]

01:33:41   over their heads we can see you we can't [TS]

01:33:43   hear you dead end [TS]

01:33:45   so thank you all for being here and [TS]

01:33:48   thanks for this great discussion of the [TS]

01:33:49   Avengers and until our next episode of [TS]

01:33:52   the incomparable thanks listeners for [TS]

01:33:54   tuning in I'm Jason Snell see you next [TS]

01:33:56   time [TS]

01:33:58   [Music] [TS]

01:34:04   [Music] [TS]