The Incomparable

87: Where Do the Dragons Go to the Bathroom?


00:00:06   the incomparable podcast number 87 april [TS]

00:00:11   twenty well [TS]

00:00:15   welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:00:18   and this week we have a theme we're [TS]

00:00:21   going to be talking about dragons [TS]

00:00:23   because you know dragons are common [TS]

00:00:26   feature of fantasy literature and you [TS]

00:00:28   find them in science fiction to they [TS]

00:00:29   seem to be this month MacGuffin but it's [TS]

00:00:33   this common thread that no matter what [TS]

00:00:35   else you find a fat fantasy world can be [TS]

00:00:36   dragons or gonna be disappointed and the [TS]

00:00:38   dragons are often wise or evil or [TS]

00:00:41   all-powerful but they seem to be a key [TS]

00:00:43   element that that uh travels through so [TS]

00:00:46   many different fantasy novels and it's a [TS]

00:00:49   long history as well so we thought of [TS]

00:00:51   Lisa Schmeisser my co-hosts assemble [TS]

00:00:53   elisa I Lisa and I were talking after a [TS]

00:00:57   McCaffrey died who is the author of the [TS]

00:00:59   dragonriders of Pern series of novels on [TS]

00:01:02   how effective it was for her and I [TS]

00:01:05   didn't read that series and a little bit [TS]

00:01:06   of it long ago but it got us talking [TS]

00:01:09   about the fact that dragged into this [TS]

00:01:11   common theme we like to talk about big [TS]

00:01:12   issues on the cobbles so we thought we [TS]

00:01:14   would we would talk dragons there be [TS]

00:01:16   dragons this episode so we brought in [TS]

00:01:18   some other dragon slayers as well [TS]

00:01:20   Torrey Smith welcomed or e2 incomparable [TS]

00:01:23   hello what hello and Sarah Barbara hello [TS]

00:01:26   were heading to having major fuckup [TS]

00:01:28   thanks for coming on so we're going to [TS]

00:01:31   talk about big themes and specifics to [TS]

00:01:33   because there's so much to talk about [TS]

00:01:34   with dragons and Lisa you wish before [TS]

00:01:37   the podcast Lisa you're saying about [TS]

00:01:39   dragons but I say I haven't read [TS]

00:01:42   anything I haven't sought out or [TS]

00:01:45   consciously looked for any dragon themed [TS]

00:01:47   fantasy since about ninth grade but when [TS]

00:01:50   I learned that anne mccaffrey had died [TS]

00:01:52   in i believe was november last year I [TS]

00:01:54   was still very affected by it because [TS]

00:01:56   our dragonriders of Pern series was [TS]

00:01:58   something that provided with hours of [TS]

00:02:01   entertainment and daydreaming from about [TS]

00:02:05   fourth grade to eighth grader so and so [TS]

00:02:07   when an author who shapes that much of [TS]

00:02:10   your free time during adolescence dies [TS]

00:02:13   it obviously has an effect on you and [TS]

00:02:16   actually prompted by her death I went [TS]

00:02:18   back and reread many of the books in the [TS]

00:02:19   series [TS]

00:02:20   well I recommend that the interesting i [TS]

00:02:22   read them through adult eyes and I read [TS]

00:02:24   them coming from the perspective of a [TS]

00:02:26   reader in the 21st century [TS]

00:02:28   and it was interesting to note what what [TS]

00:02:32   held up and and what absolutely does not [TS]

00:02:34   haha yeah i feel we should give mcafee [TS]

00:02:38   her props because she really did help [TS]

00:02:40   break open the door for women in science [TS]

00:02:44   fiction a lot of ways I mean she I think [TS]

00:02:46   she was one of the first woman to win [TS]

00:02:47   wasn't a nebula [TS]

00:02:49   um I have to be I'm not on that up my [TS]

00:02:52   rewards baidu Murder She the the fact [TS]

00:02:55   that she said her first step series of [TS]

00:02:57   Dragon Rider books with a female [TS]

00:02:58   protagonist and that it's a woman who [TS]

00:03:01   was doing this was kind of a big deal [TS]

00:03:02   the time and her non dragon work is is [TS]

00:03:06   pretty was pretty groundbreaking to this [TS]

00:03:09   there's a series that starts a book [TS]

00:03:10   called the ship was saying oh yes [TS]

00:03:13   yeah where were they take the brain of [TS]

00:03:15   they take the brain of the terminally [TS]

00:03:16   lady they stick in a ship and from the [TS]

00:03:18   splits it leave it it's a classic riff [TS]

00:03:21   on a trip that you saw a lot in that [TS]

00:03:23   period because I can also remember i [TS]

00:03:25   think a ray bradbury or Harlan Ellison [TS]

00:03:27   story about an autistic person who was [TS]

00:03:29   sent to explore another planet and the [TS]

00:03:31   argument was well since their brain [TS]

00:03:33   processes things differently they're [TS]

00:03:34   able to their able to parse the data [TS]

00:03:37   from different planets more effectively [TS]

00:03:38   than humans and robots can so you know [TS]

00:03:40   clearly the idea that differently abled [TS]

00:03:42   people could bring experiences and [TS]

00:03:45   perspectives to the table that humankind [TS]

00:03:46   could use and therefore their valuable [TS]

00:03:48   like that wasn't that reverberate [TS]

00:03:49   through science fiction the sixties and [TS]

00:03:50   seventies McCaffrey picked it up [TS]

00:03:52   embroidered it turned into an epic space [TS]

00:03:54   romance [TS]

00:03:54   um but looping back to the Dragons of it [TS]

00:04:00   is painfully evident she was never a [TS]

00:04:02   biologist [TS]

00:04:03   oh yeah oh well and and the unfortunate [TS]

00:04:08   thing is I i did trained as a biologist [TS]

00:04:10   LOL well the thing is if she mentions [TS]

00:04:14   all up in McCaffrey's planet all of her [TS]

00:04:17   dragons teleport and someone wants to [TS]

00:04:20   ask for water the Dragons go to the [TS]

00:04:21   bathroom she goes well they obviously go [TS]

00:04:23   to the bathroom and the teleportation [TS]

00:04:24   avoid so nobody ever has to show you [TS]

00:04:26   medicine and bearing in mind when I was [TS]

00:04:30   in sixth grade and skipping out cat's [TS]

00:04:31   litter boxes i thought this is a great [TS]

00:04:33   thing all be hard it's it's it's a [TS]

00:04:35   telepathic best friend you never have to [TS]

00:04:37   clean up after and it will love me a [TS]

00:04:38   defendant [TS]

00:04:39   lima over the planet mom because you [TS]

00:04:42   don't want is your buddy all you do you [TS]

00:04:44   do your dream especially picked but then [TS]

00:04:46   you read this is somebody who's an adult [TS]

00:04:48   and who has you know taking psychology [TS]

00:04:50   courses and all I could think was that's [TS]

00:04:52   an awful lot of biomass that's getting [TS]

00:04:55   deposited to avoid the most kind of [TS]

00:04:58   closed system so basically the depleting [TS]

00:05:00   the planet over time with dragon poop [TS]

00:05:02   how's that sustainable this is not a [TS]

00:05:04   phosphorus on that planet anymore it's [TS]

00:05:05   terrible [TS]

00:05:06   boron is the thing that she's decided to [TS]

00:05:08   use it also makes no sense i looked at [TS]

00:05:12   and she thought she was the first woman [TS]

00:05:13   to win any nebula of any kind and the [TS]

00:05:16   first woman to win the hugo there yeah [TS]

00:05:19   yeah yeah yeah she was groundbreaking [TS]

00:05:21   and you know when again as an adolescent [TS]

00:05:24   in the early eighties when a lot of the [TS]

00:05:27   very visible space and fantasy things [TS]

00:05:29   are exposed to primarily male like the [TS]

00:05:31   Hamid or the lord of the rings or on TV [TS]

00:05:34   there with star blazers or star trek to [TS]

00:05:36   have this world where you know women [TS]

00:05:38   were effectively running the show and [TS]

00:05:40   could impress these huge dragons and [TS]

00:05:42   have adventures and and become equal to [TS]

00:05:46   men that was tremendously exciting and [TS]

00:05:48   it wasn't until much much later that I [TS]

00:05:50   really really well but then I realized [TS]

00:05:51   that really the dragons are just kind of [TS]

00:05:53   giant wish-fulfillment machines they [TS]

00:05:56   giant metaphors [TS]

00:05:59   yeah there's not a whole lot of cultural [TS]

00:06:01   resonance but you know as a book series [TS]

00:06:03   it's something that you know I what some [TS]

00:06:05   kids go through horse faces i went [TS]

00:06:07   through dragonface i noticed we have you [TS]

00:06:08   know what kind a few different authors [TS]

00:06:09   in our list year were compiling series [TS]

00:06:11   and a lot of them are female authors and [TS]

00:06:13   I've wondered if that's I mean this end [TS]

00:06:15   and writing in that period of time into [TS]

00:06:17   the essence of the most notable Ursula K [TS]

00:06:19   Le Guin dragons are a key theme in the [TS]

00:06:22   RC novels which I remember reading as a [TS]

00:06:25   kid and just loving and then she did [TS]

00:06:29   this amazing thing where she completely [TS]

00:06:30   wreck on her history with the other wind [TS]

00:06:35   which is a beautiful book and strange [TS]

00:06:37   and different sort of recast all of your [TS]

00:06:39   thinking about her work from 20 years [TS]

00:06:40   before and then there's the Temeraire [TS]

00:06:43   series by naomi is lasting a blanking at [TS]

00:06:46   the moment and think no Vic isn't it yes [TS]

00:06:49   sochi in the temperature is modern [TS]

00:06:51   and she's still writing entries in it [TS]

00:06:53   but you know I don't want to get into [TS]

00:06:54   this like you know our dragons if you go [TS]

00:06:56   girl thing and I don't know what our boy [TS]

00:06:58   thing bombs or something but everything [TS]

00:07:01   else is science fiction rings and swords [TS]

00:07:04   everything else getting everything else [TS]

00:07:05   science explains he's a guy I think [TS]

00:07:07   but rocket but it's a you know it's [TS]

00:07:09   worth it to bring our wolves [TS]

00:07:11   it's a right but you know there's that [TS]

00:07:12   there's title hopes exactly there's that [TS]

00:07:15   I'm i think is a funny thing about [TS]

00:07:17   dragons that was at their their giant [TS]

00:07:19   like overpowering force you know I was [TS]

00:07:21   wondering if there's a relationship [TS]

00:07:22   between the way the little kids love [TS]

00:07:24   dinosaurs and the way fantasy novelist [TS]

00:07:26   love dragons [TS]

00:07:27   I think it's not just set vanishing [TS]

00:07:30   almost love them but readers loves them [TS]

00:07:33   and they write what page [TS]

00:07:36   yeah this is true if people like [TS]

00:07:38   vampires then you find a bunch of [TS]

00:07:40   vampire books and sadly unfortunately [TS]

00:07:42   why do we have to try empire drag my [TS]

00:07:45   dragons yes that's repeatability we [TS]

00:07:49   could spend a billion dollars sparkling [TS]

00:07:51   vampire dragons [TS]

00:07:53   yeah there's nothing more magical about [TS]

00:07:54   about dragons and there are about [TS]

00:07:56   dinosaurs sell because actually this it [TS]

00:07:58   right so it's sort of Komodo dragons you [TS]

00:08:03   know it's that we have quoted dragons at [TS]

00:08:04   the local zoo here in Seattle I can't [TS]

00:08:06   take my children verifying yeah the [TS]

00:08:08   thing is you walk into the Komodo dragon [TS]

00:08:09   enclosure where children were small go [TS]

00:08:11   in there and the kids are cluster on the [TS]

00:08:13   glass and the Komodo dragons are looking [TS]

00:08:14   at them like I'm gonna eat that one and [TS]

00:08:16   that one they don't hide don't hide it [TS]

00:08:18   like not going in there anymore so [TS]

00:08:20   there's that primal thing is something [TS]

00:08:22   how many things are bigger than human [TS]

00:08:24   beings that aren't you know there's the [TS]

00:08:25   big cats there's elephants that are [TS]

00:08:27   there threatening a certain way but but [TS]

00:08:29   you know the Komodo dragon is freaking [TS]

00:08:31   enormous and crazy and you're like but I [TS]

00:08:33   know there's a great Bitan cryptonomicon [TS]

00:08:35   where one of the characters i think it's [TS]

00:08:37   supposed to be in world war two with a [TS]

00:08:39   Japanese soldier is like washed ashore [TS]

00:08:41   on some Island is part of the convoluted [TS]

00:08:43   plot netbook ACCC's Komodo dragons and [TS]

00:08:46   one comes out like it's one of the guys [TS]

00:08:47   he's with and they're thinking they've [TS]

00:08:49   lost their minds because they never seen [TS]

00:08:51   anything like this before but I there's [TS]

00:08:52   that thing like it's so big like [TS]

00:08:54   dinosaurs dragons are so huge and [TS]

00:08:56   powerful and they're often magic they [TS]

00:08:58   can teleport or they in the tremor [TS]

00:09:01   series they have [TS]

00:09:02   the you know they obviously can't fly in [TS]

00:09:05   violation of laws of physics but they [TS]

00:09:06   also have here they can speak from birth [TS]

00:09:09   or even while they're in the egg so [TS]

00:09:10   there's that [TS]

00:09:11   what if there's a theme there that that [TS]

00:09:13   dragon journey for communication miss [TS]

00:09:15   tonight again with the burn things I [TS]

00:09:18   went in the cafe decide to write the [TS]

00:09:19   origin of the Dragons she has a [TS]

00:09:21   geneticist go in and engineer them so [TS]

00:09:23   they're telepathic and she did in the [TS]

00:09:27   engineer also builds in a failed state [TS]

00:09:28   that the Dragons have to find a human to [TS]

00:09:31   whom will be subordinate otherwise [TS]

00:09:33   they'll die in the reasons as a [TS]

00:09:34   fail-safe is because the last thing you [TS]

00:09:35   want is an independently thinking alpha [TS]

00:09:37   predator uncontrolled rampaging this [TS]

00:09:40   planet [TS]

00:09:40   um but the magic element I i wonder if [TS]

00:09:46   it has something to do with the fact [TS]

00:09:46   that dragons are so ubiquitous in human [TS]

00:09:50   cultures and have been since bc times i [TS]

00:09:53   remember reading an article in The New [TS]

00:09:54   York Times a couple years ago that [TS]

00:09:55   pointed out that dragons have hit [TS]

00:09:57   virtually every continent save [TS]

00:09:59   Antarctica every single almost every [TS]

00:10:01   continent has a civilization that has [TS]

00:10:03   had dragons as part of its mythology [TS]

00:10:05   lower creation story and one person was [TS]

00:10:08   the arising that this is because a [TS]

00:10:10   dragon is essentially an amalgamation of [TS]

00:10:11   a bear you know in terms of the body [TS]

00:10:14   size proportion and of Reptoids like [TS]

00:10:17   snakes and Komodo dragons and of big [TS]

00:10:19   cats and those are the kind of predators [TS]

00:10:21   that were most likely to pick off for a [TS]

00:10:23   fish ancestors and so if this this [TS]

00:10:25   amalgamation of alpha predators that can [TS]

00:10:27   kill us has been in our subconscious [TS]

00:10:29   since we were preferable dragons our way [TS]

00:10:32   that we ve atmosphere and and try to try [TS]

00:10:35   to turn to something divine I feel like [TS]

00:10:37   some of our will old myths are very much [TS]

00:10:40   you know they indicate this as well [TS]

00:10:42   because like all the old myths are [TS]

00:10:44   dragons are bad [TS]

00:10:45   they're here they're scary and they have [TS]

00:10:47   to be defeated like st. george of the [TS]

00:10:49   Dragon and you know the the myth of [TS]

00:10:50   Fafnir in Norse mythology but like [TS]

00:10:53   recent stories about dragons are all [TS]

00:10:56   dragons are friendly you know they're [TS]

00:10:58   dangerous but you can make friends with [TS]

00:10:59   them and get them to fly around places [TS]

00:11:01   that's it's good it's funny that bonding [TS]

00:11:03   thing to its you know if you are the [TS]

00:11:06   Temeraire Series last year we should we [TS]

00:11:08   could talk about some specifics at the [TS]

00:11:09   temporaries I quite like I picked up i [TS]

00:11:12   think amazon had like a free the first [TS]

00:11:14   novel as a free kindle book or it was [TS]

00:11:16   incredibly cheap and I looked at reviews [TS]

00:11:17   I'm like I don't want to drag in novel [TS]

00:11:20   and short can be awful and some dragons [TS]

00:11:22   at the time of Lord Nelson and they're [TS]

00:11:24   using military campaigns ridiculous and [TS]

00:11:26   i started reading it and it's fantastic [TS]

00:11:28   i'm not a military history buff [TS]

00:11:30   I'm not like a Napoleonic war guy and [TS]

00:11:32   not even the period novel person it's [TS]

00:11:35   it's a beautiful book and the the it's [TS]

00:11:37   it presents an entirely realistic world [TS]

00:11:39   in which you know it's like there's a [TS]

00:11:41   great starter life like Night Live [TS]

00:11:43   sketch of your scale which is this what [TS]

00:11:45   if series is what if Caesar and had a [TS]

00:11:47   Piper Cub the intonation Caesar drop and [TS]

00:11:49   stop them [TS]

00:11:50   what sort of my record what if what if [TS]

00:11:53   Nelson army and Napoleon had dragons and [TS]

00:11:57   what it reads like them is you know the [TS]

00:11:58   real military battle she thought out how [TS]

00:12:00   you would have military engagements [TS]

00:12:02   among you know a lot about a dragon some [TS]

00:12:05   which can breathe fire and they can fly [TS]

00:12:06   and you have the outfit the dragons are [TS]

00:12:09   like ships so they have these guys [TS]

00:12:10   strapped with carabiners all over the [TS]

00:12:12   dragon and harnessed so they can be [TS]

00:12:14   engaging and you know they disengaged [TS]

00:12:16   your hand and combat in the air and it's [TS]

00:12:18   it's really quite lovely but the they [TS]

00:12:21   you know they get to this human [TS]

00:12:22   relationship as this was talking about [TS]

00:12:24   with the bonding in the dragonriders of [TS]

00:12:26   Pern you know now we know that is [TS]

00:12:29   clearly playing towards that is the [TS]

00:12:30   Dragons bond even in the egg I think to [TS]

00:12:33   someone and that person is sort of [TS]

00:12:34   ruined in society so the flyers in [TS]

00:12:36   England their outfit for other [TS]

00:12:38   consumption they have to live out in the [TS]

00:12:39   middle of nowhere with the Dragons [TS]

00:12:40   they're basically I kind of a band so [TS]

00:12:42   the story of the novel start with a [TS]

00:12:44   fellow is authorized the apple tree and [TS]

00:12:48   has no interest in being a dragonrider [TS]

00:12:49   they manage to steal an egg from the [TS]

00:12:51   French that the Chinese are given the [TS]

00:12:53   french for some Imperial Dragon and the [TS]

00:12:55   dragon bonds with him is the only [TS]

00:12:57   appropriate person [TS]

00:12:58   so he has to leave this whole career so [TS]

00:13:00   it's it's very moving and they develop [TS]

00:13:01   this very touching relationship in the [TS]

00:13:03   dragon is incredibly smart and I think [TS]

00:13:05   every three of the novel's now and I'm [TS]

00:13:07   surprised every time I pick it up and [TS]

00:13:09   like really i'm reading this and you [TS]

00:13:11   know it's it's um it's lovely stuff [TS]

00:13:15   Sarah do you have a favorite to have [TS]

00:13:16   some dragon favorites [TS]

00:13:18   oh i have to admit i actually just [TS]

00:13:21   really picked up my and efficacy read [TS]

00:13:23   was one of the first sort of dragon [TS]

00:13:25   books that i read and i I've kept my [TS]

00:13:26   copy to the years and they were very [TS]

00:13:28   well and I i have to agree that that the [TS]

00:13:32   the dragonriders of Pern serious did not [TS]

00:13:35   wear nearly falling from i started [TS]

00:13:38   rereading the the dragonriders of Pern [TS]

00:13:41   the the one with lesson Jackson then the [TS]

00:13:45   characters just didn't really behave [TS]

00:13:48   quite like I remember them but no no [TS]

00:13:50   they really don't do that [TS]

00:13:51   no it's it's so unfortunate because i [TS]

00:13:54   love them so much when I was like that [TS]

00:13:56   old and then there's like portion has [TS]

00:13:58   like the the romance of riding a horse [TS]

00:14:00   that the verses are already horse [TS]

00:14:02   I don't know the reality of riding horse [TS]

00:14:04   is actually very often and once they [TS]

00:14:06   don't think the reality of taking care [TS]

00:14:07   of a horse I bet your partner practical [TS]

00:14:08   part of the problem is to is again when [TS]

00:14:10   you read these books through the 21st [TS]

00:14:12   century perspective these characters or [TS]

00:14:14   either very poorly served by the author [TS]

00:14:17   was a mccafe really seems to have it in [TS]

00:14:19   for a sort of women where they're [TS]

00:14:20   simultaneously awesome insufferable um [TS]

00:14:23   and the men are just as high-handed [TS]

00:14:26   bossy you snobs maybe it's except for [TS]

00:14:30   the very select few and the way she [TS]

00:14:32   writes gay men is just the way she [TS]

00:14:35   raised the game is just a hate crime and [TS]

00:14:37   it's for its time period [TS]

00:14:41   well II and again we should probably [TS]

00:14:43   give her credit for incorporating them [TS]

00:14:45   as healthy functioning matter-of-fact [TS]

00:14:46   members in a society because that was [TS]

00:14:49   pretty rare in the sixties and seventies [TS]

00:14:50   and and to be honest i missed it when i [TS]

00:14:54   first started reading the books as a [TS]

00:14:55   fourth and fifth grader it wasn't until [TS]

00:14:56   like the penny dropped during puberty [TS]

00:14:58   that I'm like hey wait a minute and you [TS]

00:15:02   know so credit McCaffrey for being able [TS]

00:15:03   to write it in that way but then when [TS]

00:15:05   you go back and again you read the books [TS]

00:15:07   you're like wow this this is just [TS]

00:15:11   is this man does dismount the dragon he [TS]

00:15:14   pisses off a dragon it's making yeah i'm [TS]

00:15:18   i'm not a game of thrones watcher but I [TS]

00:15:20   understand other dragons and game is [TS]

00:15:22   thrown in there are a game of thrones [TS]

00:15:25   yeah there's some there are definitely [TS]

00:15:26   dragons and they're not as they're not [TS]

00:15:30   really characters per se i feel like [TS]

00:15:32   they're more plot points the the exiled [TS]

00:15:35   queen and spoiler by the way I'm wearing [TS]

00:15:40   what I'm wearing right now [TS]

00:15:42   [Music] [TS]

00:15:46   so she has these three dragon eggs that [TS]

00:15:49   she gets as a present when she gets [TS]

00:15:50   married and after her husband dies she [TS]

00:15:54   put them in the fire and they like maybe [TS]

00:15:56   they've been stone forever and put them [TS]

00:15:59   in the fire husband's funeral pyre and [TS]

00:16:01   they emerge and they the first time that [TS]

00:16:06   anybody seen dragons in the world for [TS]

00:16:08   like hundreds of years and so is it was [TS]

00:16:10   the symbol of her old family so it's not [TS]

00:16:13   like she's coming back her family's [TS]

00:16:15   coming back into power and you know the [TS]

00:16:17   Dragons for it like a herald of that so [TS]

00:16:19   i have to say the dragons are not really [TS]

00:16:21   they're talking about a lot but they're [TS]

00:16:24   not much as characters in the game of [TS]

00:16:27   thrones like Harry Potter or two is you [TS]

00:16:29   know you have all the dragons throughout [TS]

00:16:30   harrypotter but they're not actually [TS]

00:16:31   that interesting there's sort of plot [TS]

00:16:33   devices and they don't have they seem to [TS]

00:16:35   be kind of dumb beasts I i like how [TS]

00:16:37   they're basically the fantasy equivalent [TS]

00:16:39   of the Yellowstone wolves because you [TS]

00:16:42   know the u.s. Park Service has been [TS]

00:16:43   involved in improving the wolves in [TS]

00:16:46   Yellowstone and tracking them and [TS]

00:16:48   studying them and basically you have a [TS]

00:16:50   bunch of wizards who are or who are [TS]

00:16:52   magical ecologists and their job is to [TS]

00:16:55   identify always different species of [TS]

00:16:57   dragons and keep them on a preserve and [TS]

00:16:59   monitor their well-being and make sure [TS]

00:17:01   that they're not being hunted to [TS]

00:17:02   extinction abuse and I thought that was [TS]

00:17:03   just a wonderful colorful detail on the [TS]

00:17:05   books that you know they don't learn [TS]

00:17:08   rigorous science at Hogwarts but they [TS]

00:17:12   certainly do practice a sort of ethology [TS]

00:17:13   ecology and I thought that was really [TS]

00:17:15   cool [TS]

00:17:16   that's agree that's very funny I never [TS]

00:17:18   thought about the way it's true it's the [TS]

00:17:19   end what you contribute to the dragon [TS]

00:17:21   Restoration Fund only three galleons and [TS]

00:17:23   two signals will feed the dragon 45 [TS]

00:17:25   minutes possibly disorder one of my [TS]

00:17:28   favorite um one of my favorite discworld [TS]

00:17:31   books is guards guards and it's the book [TS]

00:17:33   that introduces a character who arguably [TS]

00:17:36   has become the moral linchpin of the [TS]

00:17:38   discworld universe i'm talking about [TS]

00:17:40   terry pratchett discworld but in guards [TS]

00:17:42   guards what happens is somebody who [TS]

00:17:44   wants to take over as cities throne [TS]

00:17:46   summons a dragon from the dimensions [TS]

00:17:47   wizards and exiled them and naturally [TS]

00:17:52   the dragon then becomes the king of the [TS]

00:17:53   city but the citizen at the same time [TS]

00:17:57   there's also the won't you donate to the [TS]

00:17:58   dragon fun because [TS]

00:18:00   in the discworld society matrons instead [TS]

00:18:03   of breeding horses and dogs actually [TS]

00:18:05   breathe miniature dragons and they have [TS]

00:18:09   pedigrees for them in shows but the joke [TS]

00:18:11   is these dragons always blowing [TS]

00:18:12   themselves up because they're their body [TS]

00:18:14   chemistry is so volatile it every time [TS]

00:18:16   they try to set something on fire they [TS]

00:18:17   end up exploding oh dear the discworld [TS]

00:18:20   book is another one that points out [TS]

00:18:22   um you know that the kid that the idea [TS]

00:18:26   of dry dragons as part of a magical [TS]

00:18:28   ecology and the difference between you [TS]

00:18:31   know tiny pet miniature swamp dragons [TS]

00:18:34   and the real live magical I can take [TS]

00:18:36   over your mind and I happen to live in a [TS]

00:18:38   different dimension because I can't [TS]

00:18:39   stand humanity you know mythical beasts [TS]

00:18:42   dragons are always it's like a genie or [TS]

00:18:45   something i always only solutions [TS]

00:18:47   depending on the book but they're often [TS]

00:18:48   like only slightly under control and [TS]

00:18:50   they could in a moment you know p.m. [TS]

00:18:51   world-spanning destroying beast or at [TS]

00:18:54   least wipe out some cities all the stuff [TS]

00:18:56   that were talking about like we all seem [TS]

00:18:58   to be referencing stuff that was written [TS]

00:18:59   within a pretty specific period [TS]

00:19:01   um and I was wondering if if the dragons [TS]

00:19:05   moment has passed or dragons are or are [TS]

00:19:07   not trendy right now and if that's a [TS]

00:19:09   reflection of water pop culture or if [TS]

00:19:12   this is a reflection of the fact that [TS]

00:19:15   we're all out of our our teens [TS]

00:19:18   well I think too that mean there's two [TS]

00:19:19   popular series though I mean the [TS]

00:19:21   temporary series i don't think is not [TS]

00:19:22   like wild bestsellers I think they've [TS]

00:19:24   done well in the family she's written a [TS]

00:19:25   center seventh or eighth book now so [TS]

00:19:27   they have certainly done at least [TS]

00:19:28   reasonably well and the eragon series [TS]

00:19:30   which I have not read by christopher [TS]

00:19:32   paolini i think is a pressing the names [TS]

00:19:34   right and easy then he started like a [TS]

00:19:37   says 17 or something and yeah he was he [TS]

00:19:40   was 14 I think and I've read some of the [TS]

00:19:42   dialogue and it's sort of extra couple [TS]

00:19:44   but you know it's been sort of it's that [TS]

00:19:46   sort of genre but how many books is he [TS]

00:19:48   into four or five and it's come to the [TS]

00:19:50   conclusion of the of the arc so it may [TS]

00:19:52   be more I mean it's kind of costco thing [TS]

00:19:53   it's like you have a hundred different [TS]

00:19:54   dragon story is going on her to really [TS]

00:19:56   big ones but I feel like they've kind of [TS]

00:19:59   dropped out of consciousness they seem [TS]

00:20:01   to become a plot device opposed to a [TS]

00:20:02   driving force as much maybe in fantasy [TS]

00:20:05   and it's become more sophisticated a [TS]

00:20:07   magic is a big thing you read everything [TS]

00:20:09   you do with fantasy now has to develop [TS]

00:20:11   an entire we were just [TS]

00:20:12   but the magician's of a recent [TS]

00:20:14   uncomfortable so you know to book [TS]

00:20:16   universe there Harry Potter world is all [TS]

00:20:19   about these sort of intricacies of [TS]

00:20:20   spells interactions of spells and things [TS]

00:20:22   like that I wonder if that's if that's [TS]

00:20:24   sort of i'm walking as replace the big [TS]

00:20:26   giant rampaging Beast excision repair I [TS]

00:20:34   think you just want my mind glad I'm [TS]

00:20:36   trying I'm trying to think if there's [TS]

00:20:37   some sort of larger societal parallel [TS]

00:20:39   aware because we're heading into an [TS]

00:20:40   information society our fantasy is [TS]

00:20:42   beginning to reflect that bias similarly [TS]

00:20:45   uh you know it's like the same way [TS]

00:20:48   vampires should become protagonist they [TS]

00:20:50   were always you know the other yes I [TS]

00:20:53   mean it's no dragons are not becoming [TS]

00:20:55   buddies too funny [TS]

00:20:57   yeah I mean there's nothing of the movie [TS]

00:20:59   thing like their movies in which dragons [TS]

00:21:01   like even schrack you know what the [TS]

00:21:03   dragon is evil and 7600 you're a lady [TS]

00:21:06   dragon oh you're in love with a donkey [TS]

00:21:09   sweet pretty sweet that there was a big [TS]

00:21:13   surprise but do you know or the wasn't [TS]

00:21:15   how to tame a dragon [TS]

00:21:17   how to train your dragon yeah it was is [TS]

00:21:20   someone to motor Dragonheart i'm not i [TS]

00:21:22   can't think of all the movies that have [TS]

00:21:23   dragons and then we'll get the hobbit [TS]

00:21:25   coming up soon to the two-part Hobbit [TS]

00:21:27   will have small dragon was the dragon of [TS]

00:21:30   my channel done over everybody's I mean [TS]

00:21:33   it'sit's you can't make him nice [TS]

00:21:36   there's no way to make him nice and [TS]

00:21:37   cuddly no definitely not ya gonna bring [TS]

00:21:40   that know what's funny is an interesting [TS]

00:21:43   read Tolkien like I remember reading the [TS]

00:21:45   hop into the hobbit and you read Lord of [TS]

00:21:47   the Rings doesn't really have you got [TS]

00:21:48   the horrible creatures that the Black [TS]

00:21:51   Riders their beasts that are some kind [TS]

00:21:52   of evil stench Aryan thing but but the [TS]

00:21:56   the silmarillion has some drag incident [TS]

00:21:59   they do crazy things like hypnotize [TS]

00:22:01   people for the rest of their lives and [TS]

00:22:02   so forth with always occupying halls and [TS]

00:22:04   there's things like that that was always [TS]

00:22:07   think I never understood about fairy [TS]

00:22:08   tales was why would dragons want to do [TS]

00:22:10   something as mundane as occupy Castle [TS]

00:22:12   you're a dragon you have unlimited power [TS]

00:22:13   when they get out of hoarding all this [TS]

00:22:17   jewels and gold [TS]

00:22:19   I mean don't go shopping with it what I [TS]

00:22:22   do is it requested to ask you earlier [TS]

00:22:23   story is so do you have a drag [TS]

00:22:25   is there a dragon if affinity you have [TS]

00:22:28   some particular novel series that [TS]

00:22:30   affected you that you like to talk about [TS]

00:22:33   looking back [TS]

00:22:35   actually I never would have a dragon [TS]

00:22:38   phase as such was more like things i [TS]

00:22:40   like just happen to have dragons in and [TS]

00:22:43   a lot of things like just happen to have [TS]

00:22:45   dragons in them [TS]

00:22:46   oh maybe it's just that i read in [TS]

00:22:48   mccaffrey at exactly the right point in [TS]

00:22:50   my life [TS]

00:22:51   yeah when dragonsong & Dragons singer [TS]

00:22:55   you know and mentally her just hit me it [TS]

00:22:58   just the right point in high school and [TS]

00:23:00   middle school [TS]

00:23:02   oh ok how much troubled history today [TS]

00:23:05   and McCaffrey podcast I dreamed of [TS]

00:23:07   having only one had ever read her [TS]

00:23:10   together one of her novels when I was a [TS]

00:23:12   kid but it was but it was that girl [TS]

00:23:14   anything right a McCaffrey was something [TS]

00:23:15   that girls red and it was an acceptable [TS]

00:23:17   form of fantasy and i was reading sort [TS]

00:23:19   of Shannara which was something also [TS]

00:23:20   that girls on a red but it wasn't it was [TS]

00:23:22   like that was acceptable to go out the [TS]

00:23:24   sword book and the girls had the dragon [TS]

00:23:25   book and feel like there's used to be a [TS]

00:23:27   split like that partly the portrayal of [TS]

00:23:29   dragons to was like no boy these days [TS]

00:23:32   going to go around reading Twilight she [TS]

00:23:34   said yeah I'm sure there are some but [TS]

00:23:37   yeah that's right now the region and [TS]

00:23:38   also sure he's too sensitive caring [TS]

00:23:41   sensitive caring vampires isn't there [TS]

00:23:43   it's either conventional wisdom were [TS]

00:23:44   published studies that point out the [TS]

00:23:46   girls are much more willing to read [TS]

00:23:48   books with male protagonists boys [TS]

00:23:50   typically do not pick up books with [TS]

00:23:52   female protagonists right and with the [TS]

00:23:54   McCaffrey ye novels that lead into the [TS]

00:23:57   driveway leading to Pern that's [TS]

00:23:58   dragonsong dragon senior dragon drums [TS]

00:24:01   for the first to the protagonist is [TS]

00:24:03   always a young woman is trying to break [TS]

00:24:05   into a male-oriented profession so [TS]

00:24:07   that's not going to provide an entryway [TS]

00:24:08   for young men and then with the adult [TS]

00:24:12   fare which is dragonflight and then the [TS]

00:24:15   empty million dragon tales that came [TS]

00:24:17   after it again these inverse to UM that [TS]

00:24:20   much of the action centers around women [TS]

00:24:23   who are writing gold dragons and again [TS]

00:24:25   i'm sure guys read those because if you [TS]

00:24:27   go through / fan forums there are plenty [TS]

00:24:31   of guys who are weighing in on the stuff [TS]

00:24:33   but I do wonder if you're 14 year old [TS]

00:24:34   boy or like why don't care about some [TS]

00:24:36   broad riding a dragon [TS]

00:24:38   now there's some other stuff that you [TS]

00:24:39   want to read and she hot [TS]

00:24:43   she says she said her some more vampire [TS]

00:24:46   yeah and I knew it's a yeah it's um you [TS]

00:24:51   know so I want everything to be like the [TS]

00:24:52   dragon unicom unicorn paradox which is [TS]

00:24:56   you know unicorns of course to attract [TS]

00:24:58   unicorn i was talking about somebody [TS]

00:24:59   recently and I said you know how to [TS]

00:25:01   attract unicorn and they said no and I [TS]

00:25:02   said well I understand mythology right [TS]

00:25:04   near the young female version no one [TS]

00:25:07   else maybe what I need a virgin universe [TS]

00:25:09   doesn't even know if he wasn't female [TS]

00:25:11   virtually championship assumed i guess [TS]

00:25:13   you could be you could be an ancient [TS]

00:25:15   male or female version 2 is true but [TS]

00:25:18   there's that sort of you know the [TS]

00:25:19   virginal purity and you have to have the [TS]

00:25:21   woman you know there's that scene if you [TS]

00:25:23   remember in the mortadella Arthur but [TS]

00:25:26   add what's the the Arthur or 30 and [TS]

00:25:29   retelling once and future king is it I [TS]

00:25:31   well remember that terrible everyone [TS]

00:25:35   goes all you have to describe i'll [TS]

00:25:36   describe four meters bring in brief [TS]

00:25:39   terms but the kids from the Orkneys [TS]

00:25:42   including Arthur's to the Sun bastard [TS]

00:25:46   son they go off hunting a unicorn and [TS]

00:25:49   they sort of what they capture young [TS]

00:25:51   woman they tired of the trees they can [TS]

00:25:52   attract unicorn and then they kill it if [TS]

00:25:55   you bring its head back to their mother [TS]

00:25:57   is Morgan favorite is the mother in that [TS]

00:25:59   orgasm from mother [TS]

00:26:01   alright yeah yeah and they wanted to [TS]

00:26:03   impress her and she's of course [TS]

00:26:05   horrified I mean she's evil herself but [TS]

00:26:07   is more fighting this and is that always [TS]

00:26:09   that notion of you kill a unicorn it's [TS]

00:26:10   and harry potter of course it's [TS]

00:26:12   everywhere else you're taking some kind [TS]

00:26:14   of purity and beauty of the world nobody [TS]

00:26:16   thinks that way about dragons accepted [TS]

00:26:18   the discworld the whole way that started [TS]

00:26:19   up in once and future king was that more [TS]

00:26:24   gals going out with night from the court [TS]

00:26:28   and she was portraying the virgin and [TS]

00:26:30   you know what you're supposed to be [TS]

00:26:33   hinting at you know [TS]

00:26:34   well of course they're not catching [TS]

00:26:35   anything yes well she's got four sons [TS]

00:26:42   but the kids see this and they think oh [TS]

00:26:44   mom must really want a unicorn right and [TS]

00:26:49   they think they're doing something for [TS]

00:26:51   mom it's kind of heartbreaking it i was [TS]

00:26:54   about to say that the the relationship [TS]

00:26:56   between orgasms her son's is one of the [TS]

00:26:57   most heartbreaking things you're reading [TS]

00:26:58   a book let's follow him [TS]

00:27:00   I mean th weight pulls no punches when [TS]

00:27:02   he shows how toxic or absent love from a [TS]

00:27:06   parent can really really warm a child [TS]

00:27:08   for life and the people who do it [TS]

00:27:09   deliberately to their children are [TS]

00:27:10   monsters [TS]

00:27:11   it's yes it's angry and heartbreaking [TS]

00:27:15   that's right the dysfunctional family [TS]

00:27:16   told in Arthurian legend it's pretty [TS]

00:27:18   there's a good recommendation is a good [TS]

00:27:20   recognition for an uplifting novel [TS]

00:27:22   though it's great but it's fun it's [TS]

00:27:23   perfect best casting margarita broadcast [TS]

00:27:25   1i in on that one I can talk about are [TS]

00:27:28   three-inch never will get it will get [TS]

00:27:30   you back for r 3 and r 3 legends coming [TS]

00:27:32   soon I'm comfortable here is enough the [TS]

00:27:35   others a million things to talk about [TS]

00:27:37   Excalibur the movie but the but the [TS]

00:27:38   unicorn think so that you know unicorns [TS]

00:27:40   are always supposed to be pure and I [TS]

00:27:42   always thought that was kind of this [TS]

00:27:43   funny thing because you have the again [TS]

00:27:45   you know whether it's a female or girl [TS]

00:27:47   thing that the interest in dragons are [TS]

00:27:49   the Spanish novels with dragons in [TS]

00:27:51   sci-fi novels with dragons and the [TS]

00:27:53   unicorn we don't get novels written [TS]

00:27:55   about you ? coins are boring it's sort [TS]

00:27:57   of like heaven as an afterlife sorry [TS]

00:27:59   I've got the harp and the wings now what [TS]

00:28:01   am I supposed to be doing your are [TS]

00:28:02   living in perfect bliss is right and [TS]

00:28:04   that's for that say yes something like [TS]

00:28:05   okay I got you record and i have i have [TS]

00:28:08   a slight it's funny you mention that [TS]

00:28:10   though because one of the things I did [TS]

00:28:11   stick in RR pre-show notes in Gabrielle [TS]

00:28:15   case for his fantasy epic the field of [TS]

00:28:16   our tapestry which is made up of three [TS]

00:28:18   separate novels on the longest road the [TS]

00:28:21   wandering fire and the summer tree and I [TS]

00:28:24   just name them in reverse order by the [TS]

00:28:26   way I'm anyway there are two instances [TS]

00:28:30   of dragons in that series and the first [TS]

00:28:33   is a dragon that was read by the forces [TS]

00:28:36   of darkness and has been biding its time [TS]

00:28:38   for thousands of years and is just [TS]

00:28:41   basically mindless killing machine and [TS]

00:28:43   then there's a second dragon and it's a [TS]

00:28:45   dragon that's definitely made of crystal [TS]

00:28:47   but the thing is um it is apparently the [TS]

00:28:50   foundational force for a doorman [TS]

00:28:51   civilization this this this civilization [TS]

00:28:54   of doors evolved to serve [TS]

00:28:55   the dragon into worship her in a weird [TS]

00:28:58   kind of Episcopalian way where they just [TS]

00:29:00   have really nice public spaces and they [TS]

00:29:03   make statues and then just go about [TS]

00:29:04   their daughters business but this [TS]

00:29:06   dragons obviously supposed to represent [TS]

00:29:07   some sort of civilizing force and over [TS]

00:29:11   the course of the massive three-book war [TS]

00:29:13   it's evident that the two dragons are [TS]

00:29:15   supposed to be headed for a showdown [TS]

00:29:17   but what happens instead is some young [TS]

00:29:19   upstart takes his unicorn uses it to [TS]

00:29:21   kill a dragon instead so the world and [TS]

00:29:24   themes colliding also its a spoiler horn [TS]

00:29:28   but the series is like 30 years old so [TS]

00:29:30   you deserve to be spoiled if you haven't [TS]

00:29:32   read it but but if it was it was [TS]

00:29:37   interesting because they use the unicorn [TS]

00:29:38   in a purely Marshall sense throughout [TS]

00:29:40   that entire series where the unicorn [TS]

00:29:43   descends from whatever divine plan [TS]

00:29:45   happens to have lift on it bonds with [TS]

00:29:49   this one young boy and all they do is go [TS]

00:29:52   and kill things I mean he writes that [TS]

00:29:54   Unicorn to battle the Unicorn is [TS]

00:29:56   basically a living sword he kills things [TS]

00:29:58   and that he comes home wipes off the [TS]

00:29:59   blood hangs with the uniform until the [TS]

00:30:01   next battle my god [TS]

00:30:03   ya know horrible and we that is in this [TS]

00:30:05   but it's all absolutely recommend that [TS]

00:30:07   the fan of our tapestry it is i think i [TS]

00:30:10   did i put in like the new the new canon [TS]

00:30:12   Tom it's one of the two it's one of two [TS]

00:30:15   badass unicorns in fantasy literature [TS]

00:30:16   and it won't be gaudy or from metal [TS]

00:30:19   angles so Marie O'Keefe books I think [TS]

00:30:22   gaudy or shows up in a swiftly tilting [TS]

00:30:27   planet which is the third of the books [TS]

00:30:29   about meg and Charles Wallace and I'm [TS]

00:30:32   going off of memory here because i [TS]

00:30:34   haven't read this book site remember the [TS]

00:30:35   other ways he stern as opposed to evil [TS]

00:30:38   right is nice but he's a badass i mean [TS]

00:30:41   yeah he does he is not break any [TS]

00:30:43   nonsense whatsoever and there is a scene [TS]

00:30:47   where is the birth of a unicorn but [TS]

00:30:48   basically Madeleine L'Engle on her whole [TS]

00:30:50   thing with the importances their [TS]

00:30:52   otherworldly and they symbolize justice [TS]

00:30:55   and the fearlessness and the pitiless [TS]

00:30:59   required to uphold higher ideal [TS]

00:31:01   sometimes right and again it's a very [TS]

00:31:04   militant almost warrior like unicorn [TS]

00:31:06   compared to how it's lovely [TS]

00:31:08   that's attracted to young women who [TS]

00:31:09   would mysteriously have never had a [TS]

00:31:11   boyfriend and you know what's going [TS]

00:31:14   another one which is Diana [TS]

00:31:15   professionalizing Peter friend who the [TS]

00:31:18   killer unicorn university i started [TS]

00:31:20   reading one like a short story about [TS]

00:31:22   where the unicorns are all deadly and [TS]

00:31:25   hunted and they have been up in their [TS]

00:31:26   fangs and they like to kill people and [TS]

00:31:28   there are telepathic people who are [TS]

00:31:30   bonded to unicorns and it's the sort of [TS]

00:31:33   hilarious i thought it was like a joke [TS]

00:31:34   story because it seems so absurd but I [TS]

00:31:37   think she now has I'm understand for [TS]

00:31:39   website but she has for such as two [TS]

00:31:42   books out but there's some other stuff [TS]

00:31:43   coming out looks like as well as two [TS]

00:31:45   short works into a long work so i must [TS]

00:31:49   read this now i think i think killer [TS]

00:31:51   unit mornings are the new like the new [TS]

00:31:53   dragons [TS]

00:31:53   look we have met the dragon they are now [TS]

00:31:56   do they fly that's always the question [TS]

00:31:57   you request you know some unicorns are [TS]

00:31:59   also winged horses as it's not me some [TS]

00:32:01   pic it was a pickled pigs and record all [TS]

00:32:03   right that's what they are [TS]

00:32:04   that's weird out of the title of the [TS]

00:32:06   episode the pegacorn sorry you've been [TS]

00:32:08   so quiet have we have we just gibberish [TS]

00:32:09   average you out of existence i have to [TS]

00:32:11   mean I've been very quiet because i [TS]

00:32:13   haven't read any of the things you you [TS]

00:32:15   are discussing and I my one unicorn book [TS]

00:32:18   in front of his is a brusque ovals [TS]

00:32:20   influence the unicorns which is a young [TS]

00:32:22   adult novel you might remember bruce [TS]

00:32:24   coville from my teacher is an alien same [TS]

00:32:28   no no I don't know I don't always work [TS]

00:32:31   what's so hat is so as fantasy or so [TS]

00:32:34   this is both an alias you definitely it [TS]

00:32:37   so definitely definitely sort of fat [TS]

00:32:39   young adult fantasy sci fi am so anyway [TS]

00:32:41   in Atlanta horns is actually kind of [TS]

00:32:43   that almost a dark fantasy of unicorns [TS]

00:32:45   we're gonna be no there's some good [TS]

00:32:48   unicorns therapist and bad unicorns but [TS]

00:32:50   it's it's kind of fascinating because [TS]

00:32:53   young girl gets pulled into the length [TS]

00:32:55   unicorns and she has to defeat the bad [TS]

00:32:57   unicorns with the help of the good [TS]

00:32:59   unicorns and isn't very dark for for an [TS]

00:33:02   apple for 12 year old but it lasts [TS]

00:33:07   unicorns are not quite the subject of [TS]

00:33:09   this podcast so well it's funny I think [TS]

00:33:11   we have the unicorn dragon dialectic [TS]

00:33:13   aerate the the battlements we are the [TS]

00:33:15   first it's the battle between the forces [TS]

00:33:18   but even that's I think that's what it [TS]

00:33:20   comes down to for me is [TS]

00:33:21   I've been trying to figure out this is [TS]

00:33:23   we started talking with the podcast [TS]

00:33:24   while ago is is you know it is it plays [TS]

00:33:27   a convenient plot device you know we [TS]

00:33:29   talked about it being a maybe an [TS]

00:33:31   archetype temple thing that's deeply [TS]

00:33:33   rooted in our brains for some reason you [TS]

00:33:36   know unicorns also seem to be all over [TS]

00:33:38   the place and they're in across there's [TS]

00:33:40   sort of a common trope to and if dragons [TS]

00:33:43   disappeared we get more unicorns they [TS]

00:33:45   start populating the universe more I [TS]

00:33:47   don't know maybe goes it with the whole [TS]

00:33:49   big information society type of thing [TS]

00:33:51   where there's no longer huge frontiers [TS]

00:33:54   to team with big myth with big dangerous [TS]

00:33:56   animals that could kill you and we've [TS]

00:33:58   now got to the point where we're trying [TS]

00:34:00   to coexist with the species that are [TS]

00:34:02   still left in a highly regulated world [TS]

00:34:05   I mean you think about we we we live in [TS]

00:34:07   a world where TV show is just shut down [TS]

00:34:09   because three brace horses were died [TS]

00:34:11   during the filming of the episode of [TS]

00:34:12   business [TS]

00:34:13   what was that it was luck which [TS]

00:34:17   intensely pedigreed show on HBO i'm in [TS]

00:34:20   Dustin Hoffman was in it and it had a [TS]

00:34:22   great cast and David melt was behind it [TS]

00:34:24   is generally top of the field but [TS]

00:34:27   because it was a show about horses at a [TS]

00:34:28   racetrack [TS]

00:34:29   I'm over the course of filming the 13 [TS]

00:34:31   episodes that will make up the series [TS]

00:34:33   three different horses had to be put [TS]

00:34:34   down [TS]

00:34:35   no dear and it's raised a lot of well [TS]

00:34:38   it's it's raised questions that people [TS]

00:34:39   have been asking for years about the [TS]

00:34:43   moral and ethical obligations of using [TS]

00:34:45   animals for entertainment and you know [TS]

00:34:48   as a society first-world Westerners are [TS]

00:34:51   kind of moving into a new phase of our [TS]

00:34:53   relationship with animals we no longer [TS]

00:34:55   regard them as beasts of burden and as [TS]

00:34:58   and as food and as a commodity to be [TS]

00:35:02   bred and used as we please where we are [TS]

00:35:05   now beginning to get to the point were [TS]

00:35:07   actively concerned about the emotional [TS]

00:35:08   lives of animals and their living [TS]

00:35:09   conditions and what our moral [TS]

00:35:11   responsibility to two other two other [TS]

00:35:16   you know living systems on this planet [TS]

00:35:18   are and so maybe fantasy is beginning to [TS]

00:35:21   reflect that because we're going from [TS]

00:35:22   less of a how can i use and exert my [TS]

00:35:24   dominion over this uncomfortable force [TS]

00:35:26   into how do i maintain my status is a [TS]

00:35:31   moral or ethical being while working [TS]

00:35:33   with completely different species [TS]

00:35:35   you see reflected a lot of different [TS]

00:35:39   ways i think too i mean that's [TS]

00:35:40   interesting you bring that up in [TS]

00:35:42   relationship to I mean there's there's [TS]

00:35:44   the older areas of both fantasy and [TS]

00:35:47   science fiction which were not just [TS]

00:35:49   male-dominated it was these great you [TS]

00:35:50   know empires and things crashing to the [TS]

00:35:53   ground and huge forces and everything [TS]

00:35:56   had to be subject to the will of the [TS]

00:35:58   whatever the wizard or the king and so [TS]

00:36:01   forth and forces arrayed and then as [TS]

00:36:03   things become more and more morally [TS]

00:36:05   ambiguous like well you know we own this [TS]

00:36:07   dragons like to really own the dragon [TS]

00:36:09   and you everyone a dragon maybe the [TS]

00:36:11   dragon is leasing itself to you and its [TS]

00:36:12   really got its own power and his dragons [TS]

00:36:14   you [TS]

00:36:15   that's what I would be actually very [TS]

00:36:17   curious to see when all these books are [TS]

00:36:19   written and then like what exactly the [TS]

00:36:21   relationship that the dragon is with the [TS]

00:36:22   human part is if any will leave the [TS]

00:36:27   reader there's a reader reader exercise [TS]

00:36:29   would you please restart the areas but [TS]

00:36:31   yeah it's a big money it's also i think [TS]

00:36:34   i'm trying to think back historically [TS]

00:36:36   you know even like reading for the 19th [TS]

00:36:39   century I know that fantasy is not a [TS]

00:36:41   monitor John response fiction is of [TS]

00:36:43   course you know at least you have to go [TS]

00:36:45   back to the eighteen eighties or [TS]

00:36:46   something but I'm a the job of the the [TS]

00:36:49   idea of having fantastical animals in [TS]

00:36:52   books isn't new but they're used very [TS]

00:36:54   allegorically and I can't think of [TS]

00:36:56   examples before the 20th century in [TS]

00:36:58   which you would have you know these [TS]

00:37:00   giant beasts maybe it was partly because [TS]

00:37:02   we didn't believe that anything that big [TS]

00:37:03   existed you know in the Western in [TS]

00:37:06   Western literature at least that we [TS]

00:37:07   didn't have experience with you know [TS]

00:37:09   elephants and we went to Africa or will [TS]

00:37:11   be reports back that sounded ridiculous [TS]

00:37:12   or fighting skeletons of dinosaurs [TS]

00:37:15   things like that the bones of dinosaurs [TS]

00:37:16   that it was just beyond the scope of we [TS]

00:37:19   can encompass so it's sort of a modern [TS]

00:37:21   phenomenon even think about stuff that's [TS]

00:37:23   that big now bear in mind i know my not [TS]

00:37:27   my I have no survey knowledge of [TS]

00:37:29   literature in the 15th to 18th centuries [TS]

00:37:32   um Big Apple the education but from what [TS]

00:37:36   I can recall of history of up from my [TS]

00:37:40   history lessons in school one of the [TS]

00:37:42   predominant themes of Correspondence [TS]

00:37:45   when people colonize the new worlds was [TS]

00:37:47   they go fishing [TS]

00:37:48   and then see a sturgeon that was easily [TS]

00:37:50   you know 12 feet long or they go into [TS]

00:37:54   the woods and run across bears or deer [TS]

00:37:56   that were larger than anything that ever [TS]

00:37:58   encountered in Europe so so from about [TS]

00:38:01   the fifteen sixteen hundreds we've had [TS]

00:38:03   people who have sponges really vivid [TS]

00:38:06   correspondences of I've come to this [TS]

00:38:08   brave new world where there are monsters [TS]

00:38:10   of tremendous sighs um you know they're [TS]

00:38:14   there is an experience i don't know that [TS]

00:38:15   i have that would be reflected in [TS]

00:38:16   whatever the fictional traditions of the [TS]

00:38:19   time would be or if that would even be a [TS]

00:38:21   factor or if this was for it would just [TS]

00:38:23   be something that would be transmitted [TS]

00:38:25   through through folktales or popular [TS]

00:38:27   accounts something to keep in mind there [TS]

00:38:29   is whole you know the one that got away [TS]

00:38:31   trip [TS]

00:38:33   uh oh you should have seen the fish it [TS]

00:38:36   was this is big [TS]

00:38:37   people tend to remember this is bo [TS]

00:38:40   bigger house you know bigger than a [TS]

00:38:43   casual bigger than there's also a they [TS]

00:38:46   did this go back as far as I think at [TS]

00:38:47   least the 12th century of Marco Polo and [TS]

00:38:49   then he was he was describing unicorns [TS]

00:38:52   but he was actually describing like when [TS]

00:38:53   Officer I think that's right that's like [TS]

00:38:56   the the manatees being mistaken for her [TS]

00:38:59   mates because he's perfect those were [TS]

00:39:02   some lonely since then and I think even [TS]

00:39:05   goes back rather than that there and [TS]

00:39:07   soon i remember there being a camera [TS]

00:39:09   name but there's this Greek a traveler [TS]

00:39:11   who travels in released and then found [TS]

00:39:13   him fantastic piece i would have to go [TS]

00:39:15   looking up again but Jason and the [TS]

00:39:17   Argonauts uh did that's a myth all [TS]

00:39:19   centered on its own [TS]

00:39:21   oh I was talking about his historical I [TS]

00:39:24   know you mean around and come together [TS]

00:39:26   was a facilities but it was um yeah [TS]

00:39:29   right because he brought yeah his [TS]

00:39:31   reports were a mix of like complete [TS]

00:39:32   fiction and and historical accuracy [TS]

00:39:34   right so that yeah people took them [TS]

00:39:36   hundreds years to figure out what it [TS]

00:39:37   actually was actually real elsewhere in [TS]

00:39:39   the world [TS]

00:39:40   yeah exactly i so i think we definitely [TS]

00:39:42   like have these stories where people [TS]

00:39:45   were had this story where they would [TS]

00:39:50   just say like oh my god I went to this [TS]

00:39:52   place and I saw these big things like [TS]

00:39:54   you will not believe the things I saw [TS]

00:39:57   and and what's really interesting about [TS]

00:39:59   these books the books that we've listed [TS]

00:40:01   here the more modern ones that people [TS]

00:40:03   are they're not really like oh no not [TS]

00:40:06   you won't believe what I saw anymore [TS]

00:40:08   they're all like oh well we've now [TS]

00:40:10   created this world you know you do is [TS]

00:40:11   we're going to try and make it [TS]

00:40:12   believable as possible [TS]

00:40:15   that's funny so we really so we've come [TS]

00:40:17   to this so i think our panel conclusion [TS]

00:40:19   is that a is that the more of the world [TS]

00:40:22   that we know the lesser is to explore [TS]

00:40:23   the more these things that are sort of [TS]

00:40:25   outside like dragons or improbable like [TS]

00:40:28   an acquaintance they've been pushed out [TS]

00:40:29   right [TS]

00:40:30   it is an ecological problems notice [TS]

00:40:32   there's no niche left for them in our [TS]

00:40:33   fantasy month so all we posit this then [TS]

00:40:35   so is the alien series of movies are [TS]

00:40:38   those the Dragons of outer space [TS]

00:40:40   you know their their scaly they're [TS]

00:40:42   freaky they breathe fire in the form of [TS]

00:40:44   acid they kill people are arguing is [TS]

00:40:46   that was that we had to push them with [TS]

00:40:48   exiled in the outer space [TS]

00:40:49   definitely definitely and they're such I [TS]

00:40:53   think I don't know that I agree i think [TS]

00:40:56   it's more just you know generic bad guy [TS]

00:40:59   how do you make something that's scary [TS]

00:41:01   well the saurian species as always it's [TS]

00:41:03   always lizard people right we're always [TS]

00:41:05   freaked out about lizard people in outer [TS]

00:41:06   space and the insect people definitely [TS]

00:41:09   to the whole yet that's you know that's [TS]

00:41:11   a subject for the podcast always want to [TS]

00:41:13   talk about the great writer James T at [TS]

00:41:16   Tiptree jr. Alice Sheldon we will do a [TS]

00:41:19   podcast I'm trying to some enough people [TS]

00:41:21   to read her because she's so if you read [TS]

00:41:24   James Tiptree too much your soul dies a [TS]

00:41:26   little bit even as it flies in the air [TS]

00:41:28   its people must read her biography it's [TS]

00:41:31   a marvelous she's a kick crazy but she [TS]

00:41:33   is she is these novels these insect [TS]

00:41:35   characters who are always being preyed [TS]

00:41:37   upon because they're been tortured their [TS]

00:41:40   tears are producing alcohol finer than [TS]

00:41:43   any substance in the universe perfect [TS]

00:41:45   tiptree but we are sort of freaked out [TS]

00:41:48   about insects but I think about saurian [TS]

00:41:50   species and star trek with the skirt [TS]

00:41:54   coming to make his makeshift weapon to [TS]

00:41:55   kill the poor the disabled the lizard [TS]

00:41:58   creature and it is in the original [TS]

00:42:00   series of V there's that mean that [TS]

00:42:03   people have this whole thing [TS]

00:42:05   crazy people believe that lizards have [TS]

00:42:06   invaded our planet [TS]

00:42:08   run it and it's like this really [TS]

00:42:09   widespread me it's sort of the [TS]

00:42:11   terrifying how many people have a this [TS]

00:42:13   lizard person thing going on so I wonder [TS]

00:42:16   if that's part of the two you know [TS]

00:42:17   lizards dragons you know that there's a [TS]

00:42:19   there's there's a series I'm about what [TS]

00:42:23   would have happened if the dinosaurs [TS]

00:42:23   hadn't died off and had instead involved [TS]

00:42:26   up commented analog and it is killing me [TS]

00:42:30   not for the series because basically the [TS]

00:42:32   whole thing comes down to that lately [TS]

00:42:34   and it's is a no-no not Dinotopia that's [TS]

00:42:39   the get the kids version i think i saw [TS]

00:42:41   that movie the Fantastic them being [TS]

00:42:43   either leave done interviews like holy [TS]

00:42:44   cats dinosaurs thanks crystal exist this [TS]

00:42:46   was holy cats [TS]

00:42:47   we have humans human-like by bipedal [TS]

00:42:51   animals that are little blooded and [TS]

00:42:53   smarter than we are [TS]

00:42:54   oh IC totally different series i hope [TS]

00:42:56   you all saw the recent paper that was [TS]

00:42:58   talking about the wasn't about camera it [TS]

00:43:01   was about issue of handedness in [TS]

00:43:04   chemical structures found in meteorites [TS]

00:43:06   and the relationship to life on the [TS]

00:43:07   planet and it finished with the line [TS]

00:43:09   which I hope you also i wish with a line [TS]

00:43:11   that was if this happened the same and [TS]

00:43:14   other planets as possible there are [TS]

00:43:15   super-intelligent dinosaurs out there [TS]

00:43:16   and we should beware of them and i'm not [TS]

00:43:17   kidding this is peer-reviewed paper and [TS]

00:43:20   that was the last long after all this [TS]

00:43:22   destruction of august time the consensus [TS]

00:43:27   of the scientific community that is if [TS]

00:43:28   there's life out there and it's going to [TS]

00:43:30   get to us we should be very afraid [TS]

00:43:32   I think so i think there's we have it [TS]

00:43:35   considers Drake's equation and that's [TS]

00:43:38   like a very like pine skies for the [TS]

00:43:40   equation where you know there's probably [TS]

00:43:42   life out there but the length of their [TS]

00:43:44   civilization and how long they exist and [TS]

00:43:47   you know the level of their technology [TS]

00:43:48   is such that we're probably never going [TS]

00:43:50   to see them [TS]

00:43:51   yeah that's right you have to be the [TS]

00:43:52   sweet spot where you actually you're [TS]

00:43:53   still alive and they're still alive when [TS]

00:43:55   they get right yeah exactly like you [TS]

00:43:57   know what you need [TS]

00:43:58   they have to prevent themselves from [TS]

00:43:59   blowing themselves up and you know via [TS]

00:44:01   nuclear you know devastation or [TS]

00:44:02   something whatever their analog is a [TS]

00:44:06   murder [TS]

00:44:07   yeah so it's I think for the most part [TS]

00:44:10   we've we've concluded that probably [TS]

00:44:12   there's life out there because there's a [TS]

00:44:13   lot of space but probably not going to [TS]

00:44:15   see it anytime soon but they might be [TS]

00:44:19   dragons there [TS]

00:44:20   there might be giants it's a great bands [TS]

00:44:23   a new cover band of sorry [TS]

00:44:25   yes i do they have opposable thumbs [TS]

00:44:29   that's always come how do they hold the [TS]

00:44:31   sword yeah with their minds that's all [TS]

00:44:34   about the dinosaur [TS]

00:44:35   I mean all thought dinosaurs are [TS]

00:44:38   telepathic right like a pretty much [TS]

00:44:39   every single one of these series they [TS]

00:44:41   they communicate telepathically with the [TS]

00:44:42   the humans are the only one that's you [TS]

00:44:45   know the the temper when they actually [TS]

00:44:47   oh but they do have some kind of deep [TS]

00:44:49   bonding [TS]

00:44:50   yeah actually one series i read as a [TS]

00:44:51   child with the Dragons didn't it was I'm [TS]

00:44:54   canyons pit dragons yes yes that was a [TS]

00:44:57   fantastic series it is and i think one [TS]

00:44:59   of the things I liked about it was how [TS]

00:45:01   complex and realistic the whole [TS]

00:45:04   planetary society seemed compared to a [TS]

00:45:07   lot of other dragon centric societies [TS]

00:45:09   but yes [TS]

00:45:10   what's interesting with the way you'll [TS]

00:45:11   entreats the Dragons is the relationship [TS]

00:45:14   between the people the Dragons a lot [TS]

00:45:16   more like the relationship between [TS]

00:45:17   peoples and any sort of specific class [TS]

00:45:19   of animal you know here here on earth [TS]

00:45:21   it's not [TS]

00:45:21   oh I have a telepathic best friend who [TS]

00:45:23   could set you onto five you think [TS]

00:45:26   they're like they're fighting dogs in in [TS]

00:45:28   the dragon degrees [TS]

00:45:29   oh yeah well I friends convinced me to [TS]

00:45:32   watch the neverending story and which I [TS]

00:45:34   never saw when I was a kid [TS]

00:45:35   meaning it's i would say it's worth [TS]

00:45:39   watching because it is yes it is the [TS]

00:45:41   most peculiar movie i think i have that [TS]

00:45:43   are like in an era of peculiar movies [TS]

00:45:45   there's all these inexplicable things is [TS]

00:45:48   just very weird it feels like it was [TS]

00:45:50   edited from two different movies in [TS]

00:45:52   another language with a friend mechanism [TS]

00:45:53   put on english and it's possible that's [TS]

00:45:55   what the case was but there is a dragon [TS]

00:45:57   looks like a giant dog it's a lot of [TS]

00:45:59   muppets in the film and and we have a [TS]

00:46:01   giant parrot [TS]

00:46:02   yeah that's get more like a very strange [TS]

00:46:04   neck and is so there's the end of the [TS]

00:46:09   movie spoiler horn the end of the movie [TS]

00:46:10   is the kid from the real world is flying [TS]

00:46:13   the dragon back into the real world [TS]

00:46:14   where it's chasing down the bullies who [TS]

00:46:16   bothered him at the beginning of the [TS]

00:46:17   movie you know it's been with you yeah [TS]

00:46:19   and for that we need writing for you [TS]

00:46:21   know exactly you're gonna drag that's [TS]

00:46:25   why it's popular in the Y a world right [TS]

00:46:27   now Puff the Magic Dragon [TS]

00:46:29   huh who hasn't dreamed of alicia a [TS]

00:46:32   dragon on your enemies experience [TS]

00:46:33   different different different type of [TS]

00:46:35   Dragon I think you'd make friends with [TS]

00:46:38   them [TS]

00:46:39   yeah he's your friend yeah kids don't [TS]

00:46:41   you implanted kicked out of school [TS]

00:46:44   that's my take on it well at the risk of [TS]

00:46:47   not I'm sorry dragging this on I have to [TS]

00:46:49   say it's been delightful talk dragons [TS]

00:46:54   with you all and we'll have to come back [TS]

00:46:56   and talk about unicorns more James [TS]

00:46:58   Tiptree and the once and future king in [TS]

00:47:00   the future but I thank you all for being [TS]

00:47:03   here tonight my co-host Lisa Schmeisser [TS]

00:47:05   who with him we cook this idea of [TS]

00:47:06   together thank you I'll Glenn did all [TS]

00:47:08   the heavy one thing really well and [TS]

00:47:11   endorse me thank you for being on your [TS]

00:47:13   first time on our podcast thank you very [TS]

00:47:14   much help to come out again thank you [TS]

00:47:16   very much absolutely Sarah barber thank [TS]

00:47:18   you for being here also another [TS]

00:47:19   first-timer thank you for coming out and [TS]

00:47:20   talking dragons with us thank you for [TS]

00:47:22   having me so much and we will be back [TS]

00:47:24   again soon i have no idea what's gonna [TS]

00:47:25   happen the next episode of the [TS]

00:47:27   incomparable may be other games shows [TS]

00:47:28   something in saying that you will you [TS]

00:47:30   will curse us for airing but we hope to [TS]

00:47:32   have you back soon [TS]

00:47:33   thanks for listening [TS]

00:47:35   [Music] [TS]

00:47:48   so you've been so quiet have we have we [TS]

00:47:51   just jibber-jabber you out of existence [TS]

00:47:53   are you just shocked by us [TS]

00:47:55   hello Sarah we lost her [TS]

00:48:00   Cooper what's a little bit because I was [TS]

00:48:04   feeling so back to something and the [TS]

00:48:05   cavern in be [TS]