The Incomparable

63: Like a Good Book Exploded


00:00:06   the incomparable contest number 60 every [TS]

00:00:10   october twenty LM welcome back to the [TS]

00:00:16   uncomfortable podcast i am your host [TS]

00:00:17   Jason L we're in the midst of talking [TS]

00:00:20   about gigantic fantasy novels in our [TS]

00:00:22   previous podcast we talked about George [TS]

00:00:23   RR Martin's latest dance with dragons [TS]

00:00:25   and in this edition we're going to [TS]

00:00:28   continue our massive fantasy tome [TS]

00:00:29   discussion with Patrick Rafa's new book [TS]

00:00:32   The Wise Man's Fear joining me on this [TS]

00:00:36   podcast as always are [TS]

00:00:38   dan morgan serenity Caldwell John [TS]

00:00:40   siracusa and Scott McNulty now i should [TS]

00:00:43   say that the wise man's fear is the [TS]

00:00:45   sequel to the name of the wind that [TS]

00:00:48   we've covered in episode number 29 of [TS]

00:00:50   the uncomfortable titled magic fridge [TS]

00:00:53   however I wasn't actually on that [TS]

00:00:54   podcast because at the time I did not [TS]

00:00:57   know the name of the wind illustration [TS]

00:00:59   it's george mr. but I thought they call [TS]

00:01:02   the wind Mariah comments concerns anyway [TS]

00:01:05   they the the sequel also a giant [TS]

00:01:08   thousand-page fantasy novel The Wise [TS]

00:01:10   Man's Fear by Patrick Rothfuss and I've [TS]

00:01:12   read that one too [TS]

00:01:13   i I'm fully up to date on the both saga [TS]

00:01:19   as it were can't even pronounce his name [TS]

00:01:21   that's pretty good but you read the [TS]

00:01:22   first one and the second one [TS]

00:01:24   yes I have read I've read them I've read [TS]

00:01:26   them both i read the first one so i [TS]

00:01:27   could listen to my own podcast so it's [TS]

00:01:30   supposedly supposedly there is only one [TS]

00:01:32   left [TS]

00:01:33   that's really yeah I i kept I kept [TS]

00:01:36   waiting for the kill [TS]

00:01:38   killer chronicles day 3 and at the end [TS]

00:01:39   of book 3 is like wow I thought I told [TS]

00:01:42   you this would only go three days but I [TS]

00:01:43   think we're over time so let's just come [TS]

00:01:45   back and finish it booked for no I think [TS]

00:01:48   my my first question for everybody is do [TS]

00:01:51   you think that book 3 will finish the [TS]

00:01:54   past or are we going to get some present [TS]

00:01:56   our is the framing story going to become [TS]

00:01:58   the primary story at the end of this [TS]

00:02:00   this run [TS]

00:02:01   well think of how think about it done so [TS]

00:02:03   far like what's the overall story arc of [TS]

00:02:05   these supposed three books it's like bad [TS]

00:02:07   guys killed his parents and I'm assuming [TS]

00:02:10   it's going to be like he comes of age [TS]

00:02:11   and [TS]

00:02:12   and has some sort of conflict with these [TS]

00:02:14   bad guys to kill his parents but we got [TS]

00:02:15   2,000 pages and what does he really done [TS]

00:02:17   to progress in that story arc well get [TS]

00:02:20   bad guys to kill his parents we got that [TS]

00:02:22   out of college [TS]

00:02:23   yeah he was called you learn how to make [TS]

00:02:25   magic fridge and he kind of learned a [TS]

00:02:28   little bit of magic stuff and he figured [TS]

00:02:30   out the guys who killed his parents are [TS]

00:02:31   real [TS]

00:02:32   that's good that's a step out and that [TS]

00:02:33   basically is that it exists and that [TS]

00:02:36   they're bad but they're only here only [TS]

00:02:37   figured out they exist because of [TS]

00:02:39   proving the existence of some guys to [TS]

00:02:41   fought them right [TS]

00:02:42   I love that piece that's it's like it's [TS]

00:02:44   like discovering exoplanets by seeing [TS]

00:02:45   the gravitational shifts in like the [TS]

00:02:47   stars or whatever [TS]

00:02:48   well he likes the you know he's probably [TS]

00:02:50   on the guy but seriously 2,000 pages he [TS]

00:02:53   has not made a really significant [TS]

00:02:56   progress in his quest to avenge the [TS]

00:02:58   death of his parents and fight like that [TS]

00:03:00   time was spent a lot of time doing other [TS]

00:03:02   things two thousand pages with other [TS]

00:03:04   things but so what I say is he gonna [TS]

00:03:06   finish up or we can have time I don't [TS]

00:03:07   think he's gonna have time to just get [TS]

00:03:09   through the main story arc in book 3 and [TS]

00:03:10   let alone to have like present-day stuff [TS]

00:03:12   where the old John it turns out he never [TS]

00:03:14   actually found who killed his parents he [TS]

00:03:16   just he just gave up and working about [TS]

00:03:18   working apartment have a basic story and [TS]

00:03:20   then where do you go to do with the [TS]

00:03:22   present-day stop rafas is not afraid as [TS]

00:03:24   an author to just skip over stuff like [TS]

00:03:26   when he there was a shipwreck at the [TS]

00:03:29   trial the trial was really exactly yeah [TS]

00:03:31   and then what happened yeah no I think [TS]

00:03:34   it's good i think it's great and I think [TS]

00:03:35   that's how he can end it in three books [TS]

00:03:37   because he'll just say okay and then a [TS]

00:03:39   bunch of stuff happened that sounds [TS]

00:03:41   really interesting but I'm not gonna [TS]

00:03:41   tell you about it and here's the climate [TS]

00:03:44   and I kept those guys keep my parents [TS]

00:03:45   that felt good [TS]

00:03:46   what was kind of cool about this book is [TS]

00:03:48   that we do start to see the the the [TS]

00:03:51   things about clothes that that make him [TS]

00:03:53   such a legendary figure right we see him [TS]

00:03:55   doing all this stuff that nobody else [TS]

00:03:56   has done you know I see him going to [TS]

00:03:58   that crazy fairy realm we see him [TS]

00:03:59   training with the warrior guys we seem [TS]

00:04:02   like you know murder that entire caravan [TS]

00:04:04   basically and these are all things that [TS]

00:04:06   then become stories of him and we we do [TS]

00:04:08   start to realize that some of the [TS]

00:04:09   stories are inflated and out of [TS]

00:04:10   proportion I'd that's my favorite part [TS]

00:04:12   of it honestly is hearing is in the [TS]

00:04:15   present framing story when the people in [TS]

00:04:17   the bar arguing about like the stories [TS]

00:04:20   about clothes [TS]

00:04:21   it is I find that fascinating that [TS]

00:04:23   little bit of metafiction it's like all [TS]

00:04:24   these world you know these characters [TS]

00:04:25   are our [TS]

00:04:26   thing about this legendary figure oh no [TS]

00:04:28   he was 20 feet tall no sword was this [TS]

00:04:30   thing or whatever I kind of enjoyed that [TS]

00:04:32   part of it [TS]

00:04:33   yeah I you know it's for me that the [TS]

00:04:37   strange thing is that is that not that [TS]

00:04:39   he is bold enough to say well suffice it [TS]

00:04:42   to say there was a shipwreck and i ended [TS]

00:04:44   up naked penny listen town right because [TS]

00:04:46   that's kind of funny [TS]

00:04:47   the weird thing to me is there are these [TS]

00:04:51   things that feel like digressions and [TS]

00:04:53   they're probably important to the [TS]

00:04:54   overall story but still at one point so [TS]

00:04:59   i think i'm watching a story of a guy [TS]

00:05:01   coming of age and learning things in the [TS]

00:05:02   University and then at one point it's [TS]

00:05:04   like well we're gonna take this [TS]

00:05:05   diversion and you're going to go to this [TS]

00:05:07   other town where there's a guy who's [TS]

00:05:10   kind of like a king but he's not a king [TS]

00:05:12   and you're gonna be in you're going to [TS]

00:05:13   be in his service so you go there [TS]

00:05:15   there's this whole digression I'm [TS]

00:05:16   learning how to play a game and out what [TS]

00:05:18   all the coins me and I'm going to meet [TS]

00:05:19   the guy and I'm gonna befriend him like [TS]

00:05:21   this is a strange digression and then [TS]

00:05:23   the King says I'm gonna send you on a [TS]

00:05:24   mission [TS]

00:05:25   it's like wait now we're in a digression [TS]

00:05:26   inside the digression and we're not done [TS]

00:05:30   yet [TS]

00:05:30   and then we are on the mission there's [TS]

00:05:32   the the he goes into the fairy realm and [TS]

00:05:34   now what it's like with three what we're [TS]

00:05:37   inside the the round parentheses and [TS]

00:05:39   then inside the square bat brackets and [TS]

00:05:41   then inside the curly brackets right [TS]

00:05:43   it's like how deep in its its brackets [TS]

00:05:46   all the way down Jason yeah wise man's [TS]

00:05:48   inception evidence that it's it's framed [TS]

00:05:50   in this story the framing students with [TS]

00:05:53   you right after the framing stories that [TS]

00:05:55   were four levels and it's in a book that [TS]

00:05:57   you're reading in the story of your own [TS]

00:06:00   what so so that's the part that that's [TS]

00:06:02   the part that killed me is like he's [TS]

00:06:03   bold enough to say i'm not going to talk [TS]

00:06:05   about the trial I'm not gonna talk about [TS]

00:06:06   the shipwreck and yet something else [TS]

00:06:08   like you're going to meet the guy and [TS]

00:06:10   learn about the court and often but i [TS]

00:06:12   think it's far east and then and then [TS]

00:06:14   you're going to go on a mission and [TS]

00:06:15   you're going to meet new people and [TS]

00:06:16   you're gonna have adventures with him in [TS]

00:06:18   the trees and learn with this guy who's [TS]

00:06:20   got martial arts skills and then you're [TS]

00:06:21   going to go to fairyland have a lot of [TS]

00:06:23   very sex for a while then you'll come [TS]

00:06:25   back it's like you know wow [TS]

00:06:27   and they don't have sex with ninjas but [TS]

00:06:29   i think that the i think i made this [TS]

00:06:31   point in our the podcast about the first [TS]

00:06:33   book is that I think the book is really [TS]

00:06:35   about storytelling right so and can both [TS]

00:06:37   isn't building his own legend so we [TS]

00:06:39   and I have to we have to you know it's [TS]

00:06:41   kind of a shaggy dog story right where [TS]

00:06:43   he's just kind of popped around and [TS]

00:06:45   doing all these kinds of crazy things [TS]

00:06:46   and the real story is the framing story [TS]

00:06:49   that isn't really much of a story but [TS]

00:06:51   he's telling his own story and and then [TS]

00:06:54   so he's telling the story of how he got [TS]

00:06:55   to where he is but dude can we actually [TS]

00:06:57   trust what he's saying I don't know but [TS]

00:06:59   that's a whole part i agree with [TS]

00:07:00   Scotland and that's fascinating i mean [TS]

00:07:02   if you've ever known somebody who is [TS]

00:07:03   really great it like likes it now you [TS]

00:07:05   sit down in a bar and have a drink with [TS]

00:07:06   them and they tell like really [TS]

00:07:08   engrossing stories other life I've had [TS]

00:07:09   it I've met a couple people over the [TS]

00:07:11   years were just like it's fascinating [TS]

00:07:12   you just always want to know what [TS]

00:07:14   happened after that right and I think [TS]

00:07:15   that that clothes very much that that [TS]

00:07:18   kind of figure where it's just like [TS]

00:07:20   you're just kinda hooked on what he's [TS]

00:07:22   telling you and and you don't [TS]

00:07:26   necessarily you know to a certain extent [TS]

00:07:27   maybe you want your wonder where it goes [TS]

00:07:29   all goes like you know overall but at [TS]

00:07:32   the same time you're just too engrossed [TS]

00:07:33   in these stories to necessarily care [TS]

00:07:35   immediately maybe at the end you really [TS]

00:07:37   can't wait well what is the point of [TS]

00:07:38   that but i think i think there's a time [TS]

00:07:40   when you're reading it and you're in it [TS]

00:07:41   where it's just it is very engrossing [TS]

00:07:43   let's recall how this story begins [TS]

00:07:46   though allowed his book begins around [TS]

00:07:47   this book begins when I don't know how [TS]

00:07:48   many it is because we're all reading it [TS]

00:07:49   electronically but it seems like a big [TS]

00:07:52   big hunk of pages where it's like high [TS]

00:07:54   drinks at hog works and he has no money [TS]

00:07:56   and then is often the distance and he's [TS]

00:07:58   borrowing money from debbie and Ambrose [TS]

00:08:00   is on his case because Ambrose is me and [TS]

00:08:02   that went on for a long time like Jesus [TS]

00:08:04   did we do a whole like look at this [TS]

00:08:06   stuff but they gonna go somewhere so I [TS]

00:08:07   was relieved when days are finally let's [TS]

00:08:10   do something different they repeated [TS]

00:08:11   every single thing from the first book [TS]

00:08:13   within the first year you wanted 200 [TS]

00:08:15   then finally that I had to invent [TS]

00:08:16   something yeah like I was given a poison [TS]

00:08:19   and i had to get my my tuition and it [TS]

00:08:21   was large and I fucking say what you [TS]

00:08:24   will about the University stuff but it's [TS]

00:08:26   all it's all written so enjoy i believe [TS]

00:08:28   that I don't mind it so much and despite [TS]

00:08:31   any i'm a sucker for university stories [TS]

00:08:33   so yeah it's it's repetitive and it's [TS]

00:08:35   boring but it's fun and there's music [TS]

00:08:37   and and you get to I feel like you're [TS]

00:08:39   learning more about the world in it [TS]

00:08:41   well we learned about that in the first [TS]

00:08:42   book though that's why i was happy when [TS]

00:08:44   he left and when he went through all [TS]

00:08:45   these digressions i found the [TS]

00:08:47   digressions much more interesting then [TS]

00:08:49   university life even though as Jason [TS]

00:08:51   points out they seem to go nowhere haha [TS]

00:08:53   i like each aggression was like oh [TS]

00:08:56   that's a cool little setting and now [TS]

00:08:57   okay i was another little setting out [TS]

00:08:58   the ferry sex with blonde but even in [TS]

00:09:00   the very sex they had the thing to live [TS]

00:09:01   in the tree which is interesting and [TS]

00:09:03   then we're on to something else and the [TS]

00:09:04   story about the moon and and and I [TS]

00:09:07   before we go any further I want to [TS]

00:09:08   recommend highly chill Walton who wrote [TS]

00:09:10   a book that i just read that i liked a [TS]

00:09:11   lot Joe Walton the author Welsh author [TS]

00:09:15   is blogging a reread analysis of these [TS]

00:09:19   books on tor.com and it's fascinating [TS]

00:09:23   actually because it sounds like there [TS]

00:09:25   are lots and lots of things that are [TS]

00:09:27   really embedded in this story in the [TS]

00:09:29   first book and the second one apparently [TS]

00:09:31   rafas wrote all these books is first [TS]

00:09:33   draft before we went back so we have to [TS]

00:09:35   go rewrite so he knows so this it's not [TS]

00:09:37   like he's making it up as he goes along [TS]

00:09:39   their stuff in there and and it blew my [TS]

00:09:41   mind reading the blog post because [TS]

00:09:42   they're there is the story that's being [TS]

00:09:44   told here in a lot of detail like the [TS]

00:09:48   one that really blew me away is in the [TS]

00:09:51   in the second book when he said that the [TS]

00:09:53   Court of the mire and the mire it has [TS]

00:09:55   has married the loculus lady and she is [TS]

00:10:01   up [TS]

00:10:01   she hates um whatever the demo room yeah [TS]

00:10:05   the gypsies the edema ruh which which [TS]

00:10:07   both as a member of and one of the [TS]

00:10:10   reasons is because her cousin sister on [TS]

00:10:15   something ran off and married one that's [TS]

00:10:18   totally closed mother his mother in yeah [TS]

00:10:21   and in fact if you look at the first [TS]

00:10:22   book one of the songs the song that his [TS]

00:10:25   mother yells at his father for singing [TS]

00:10:27   ends with a rhyme that at the time [TS]

00:10:31   looked like she was saying that she [TS]

00:10:34   lacked less and it turns out that it's [TS]

00:10:36   the name of the lattice character who is [TS]

00:10:39   his mother's real name and so I love [TS]

00:10:41   that the fact that it upon scrutiny this [TS]

00:10:45   story actually has more going on than [TS]

00:10:47   you'd think because I you know you get [TS]

00:10:50   the sense of that I notice of it like [TS]

00:10:52   when he's in Fairyland everything [TS]

00:10:54   fullerene says is in rhymed couplets [TS]

00:10:58   even though it's not written as verse [TS]

00:10:59   she speaks in verse so you have to sort [TS]

00:11:02   of read [TS]

00:11:03   out loud and figure out that that's what [TS]

00:11:04   she's doing lots of nice touches like [TS]

00:11:06   that i think crank up my my estimation [TS]

00:11:09   of this story a lot that it is it does [TS]

00:11:11   feel rich even though i am laughing to [TS]

00:11:13   my stuff when we're in a digression [TS]

00:11:15   inside aggression inside and aggression [TS]

00:11:17   inside a frame i still don't call that a [TS]

00:11:19   good story though that's maybe like he [TS]

00:11:22   has interesting it that's kind of like [TS]

00:11:24   soap opera plot points where things [TS]

00:11:25   interact now and I wouldn't say so [TS]

00:11:27   there's a writing question or conflict [TS]

00:11:30   and and the character that goes through [TS]

00:11:32   some sort of change and like it i I [TS]

00:11:34   don't I mean I like those in those [TS]

00:11:36   worlds in those settings and i enjoy [TS]

00:11:38   reading you know about them and stuff [TS]

00:11:39   but in terms of storytelling I want a [TS]

00:11:42   story like it dipped ability even [TS]

00:11:44   something as big and flabby is Lord of [TS]

00:11:46   the Rings still has an overall story the [TS]

00:11:48   ring they got destroyed they have this [TS]

00:11:49   big long journey that you know that it [TS]

00:11:52   is a bunch of crap in the middle but [TS]

00:11:53   there's still an arc now maybe the third [TS]

00:11:55   book will do that but so far it's been [TS]

00:11:56   two books of treading water pleasant [TS]

00:11:58   treading water in some cases but it's [TS]

00:12:00   entirely an arc i would argue that the [TS]

00:12:03   character changes from book 12 i mean if [TS]

00:12:05   you look at where he is when he starts [TS]

00:12:06   out you know in terms of like we get his [TS]

00:12:08   backstory and then I think the scene the [TS]

00:12:11   scene in that whole book that gave me [TS]

00:12:12   the most sort of like recognition of [TS]

00:12:15   this this character change changing is [TS]

00:12:16   when he murders that entire caravan [TS]

00:12:18   right like in cold blood essentially [TS]

00:12:20   right like that's that is a very [TS]

00:12:23   different guy that like that is not a [TS]

00:12:24   university studio i'm happy to be [TS]

00:12:26   learning stuff just hanging out with my [TS]

00:12:28   friends having some drinks playing some [TS]

00:12:29   music no and then I murder a whole bunch [TS]

00:12:31   of people he was always a hothead and [TS]

00:12:33   jerk low [TS]

00:12:34   ya know there's a difference between a [TS]

00:12:36   hot-headed jerk and murdering people and [TS]

00:12:38   what I don't know I didn't see it out of [TS]

00:12:40   character because he was always getting [TS]

00:12:41   it under his skin anytime anyone said [TS]

00:12:43   anything about his quote unquote erase [TS]

00:12:44   but really just his profession or [TS]

00:12:47   whatever the Gypsy people you know I [TS]

00:12:48   hate them and he was ready to kill them [TS]

00:12:49   and second everybody but yet but that's [TS]

00:12:51   if that's going to be where they're [TS]

00:12:53   going to go with the story there's a [TS]

00:12:54   bunch of other stuff there that doesn't [TS]

00:12:56   contribute to that and and I don't like [TS]

00:12:57   i said i think the things that I like [TS]

00:12:59   the best are the things that aren't [TS]

00:13:00   actually contributing to the story and [TS]

00:13:02   that works against my estimation of his [TS]

00:13:04   overall story [TS]

00:13:06   John you're right you're in digman [TS]

00:13:07   wrapped in a riddle is true and it was [TS]

00:13:09   the story is the story of how he becomes [TS]

00:13:13   the man in the framing story the right [TS]

00:13:15   so it's not yet it's stories like him [TS]

00:13:17   tracking down who killed his parents [TS]

00:13:19   that's what contributed to making him [TS]

00:13:21   the character that he is he's not he's [TS]

00:13:23   not really getting any closer to be the [TS]

00:13:25   guy that I disagree with that I don't [TS]

00:13:27   know my vision of the guy in the framing [TS]

00:13:28   story is that he's much older than the [TS]

00:13:30   guy in the regular story so I don't know [TS]

00:13:32   maybe he is there no no it's supposed to [TS]

00:13:34   be like 34 is yeah he's they say that [TS]

00:13:37   he's he he yeah he said he's actually [TS]

00:13:39   surprisingly gotta lose all of his magic [TS]

00:13:41   powers and all this physical ability in [TS]

00:13:43   a very short time they have one bright [TS]

00:13:45   but does he lose it though that's the [TS]

00:13:47   question right because he is just acting [TS]

00:13:49   or is he we don't know does he lose it [TS]

00:13:51   or lose faith [TS]

00:13:52   I mean that's the real question right [TS]

00:13:53   because he gets beaten up at one point [TS]

00:13:55   but it doesn't matter whether he's [TS]

00:13:56   allowing that to happen yeah but it does [TS]

00:13:58   he let i think i do i read it into it [TS]

00:14:01   that he allowed that to happen because [TS]

00:14:02   he was a you know trying to keep he's [TS]

00:14:05   hiding from something we don't know what [TS]

00:14:07   or why [TS]

00:14:08   well I i read that as him screwing up [TS]

00:14:10   legitimately because he and I grace for [TS]

00:14:13   over one was saying they're about lack [TS]

00:14:14   of faith that you know they're so [TS]

00:14:15   there's clearly something has shaken him [TS]

00:14:17   to my reading because you know clearly [TS]

00:14:19   the whole twist there at the end is that [TS]

00:14:21   bast hire these guys right to come in [TS]

00:14:23   try and trick him into being him all his [TS]

00:14:26   old self again and it didn't work so you [TS]

00:14:30   know you can certainly make the argument [TS]

00:14:32   that he's he's doing this and all [TS]

00:14:33   putting on a show but that that and [TS]

00:14:35   maybe that you know lives up to his epic [TS]

00:14:37   nature oh I knew I knew you were trying [TS]

00:14:40   to trick me best so I played against you [TS]

00:14:42   right but it felt a little too genuine [TS]

00:14:44   to me the way that he starts to do [TS]

00:14:46   something right and then screws up even [TS]

00:14:48   like figuring out he's like martial arts [TS]

00:14:50   moves that's that's what he would do if [TS]

00:14:52   he was faking it but no I don't know [TS]

00:14:53   I've his entire his entire frame of [TS]

00:14:57   reference for me and these in this [TS]

00:14:58   framing story just he feels broken every [TS]

00:15:01   scene you read about him in the in the [TS]

00:15:03   framing story I mean it's like his hair [TS]

00:15:05   is dulled and he just has sort of a you [TS]

00:15:07   know a hunch when he works and you can [TS]

00:15:09   still sort of get the the spark of where [TS]

00:15:11   what he used to be when he's telling me [TS]

00:15:13   stories but and a general thing like you [TS]

00:15:16   you look at him virtually look through [TS]

00:15:19   the the way that roughness is describing [TS]

00:15:21   the character and you don't you see a [TS]

00:15:23   shred of the man he used to be at least [TS]

00:15:25   thats that's how i see it it is a sad [TS]

00:15:28   sack that I suppose the counter-argument [TS]

00:15:30   to that is he supposed to be this [TS]

00:15:31   masterful performance to like it's in [TS]

00:15:33   some ways it's like he's piece body into [TS]

00:15:35   the role [TS]

00:15:36   yeah that he was performing they could [TS]

00:15:38   still say that he was faking it and he [TS]

00:15:40   is a sad so yes he's kind of like Bill [TS]

00:15:41   Murray what they could they couldn't [TS]

00:15:44   it's more I think it's more interesting [TS]

00:15:45   if he's not [TS]

00:15:46   yeah so what do we think about whe about [TS]

00:15:49   Jenna who is continues to be kind of [TS]

00:15:51   this weird character that just she's--oh [TS]

00:15:53   she's so she's so great and and yes [TS]

00:15:56   she's so she's also so mysterious and [TS]

00:15:58   she has a mysterious patron and and with [TS]

00:16:01   the exception of the scene where she [TS]

00:16:02   basically where he eavesdrops on her as [TS]

00:16:05   she tells the the girl that she can be a [TS]

00:16:07   prostitute of various kinds or she can [TS]

00:16:09   find another line of work to be in which [TS]

00:16:11   i thought was kind of interesting but I [TS]

00:16:13   i find her problematic because she does [TS]

00:16:15   seem kind of like this flat empty [TS]

00:16:17   oh it's the love of his life but she's [TS]

00:16:19   not that interesting she's I feel like [TS]

00:16:21   maybe because her story is so wrapped up [TS]

00:16:25   in the overarching story we only see her [TS]

00:16:28   in one in one perspective exactly and [TS]

00:16:30   you only see him from which will be a [TS]

00:16:32   very clever reveal but at the same time [TS]

00:16:34   we have two books of her being [TS]

00:16:35   completely flat and boring well so is [TS]

00:16:37   Ambrose Ambrose another flight character [TS]

00:16:38   we have no Ambrose is completely [TS]

00:16:40   one-dimensional he's not even a [TS]

00:16:41   character there's a lot of I complain [TS]

00:16:43   about the characters in the first one [TS]

00:16:44   and it continues to be the case in the [TS]

00:16:45   Second a lot of cookie cutter character [TS]

00:16:47   and even even the main character i still [TS]

00:16:48   think it's still kind of marry soon [TS]

00:16:50   within the way that he's good at [TS]

00:16:51   everything that he tries in an annoying [TS]

00:16:53   way and another issue i'll get to when [TS]

00:16:55   we get to a later section but that's it [TS]

00:16:58   jenna is the flat test because she's so [TS]

00:17:00   one-dimensional but Ambrose is also one [TS]

00:17:02   dimension but we just accept that will [TS]

00:17:04   hear the antagonist is not that [TS]

00:17:05   important he's he's not the main [TS]

00:17:07   antagonist and I keep waiting for [TS]

00:17:08   clothes to kill him and have it [TS]

00:17:11   basically ruin his life [TS]

00:17:13   yeah battle things happen I mean we are [TS]

00:17:15   alluded to the fact they basically gets [TS]

00:17:17   kicked out right well accepted yes he [TS]

00:17:19   actually does it kill Leon von clairol [TS]

00:17:21   story [TS]

00:17:22   yeah yeah I don't know it doesn't [TS]

00:17:24   officially get kicked out he's just [TS]

00:17:25   strongly suggested that he leave so it's [TS]

00:17:27   unclear whether we've seen that or not [TS]

00:17:29   but I mean if he murdered Ambrose and [TS]

00:17:31   like really had to leave like that would [TS]

00:17:32   just differ is a self-defense what you [TS]

00:17:35   it's interesting that all the settings [TS]

00:17:36   that he seems to be put in are ones [TS]

00:17:39   where there's an authority that has [TS]

00:17:41   control over his life he goes right from [TS]

00:17:42   the University where we had a book and a [TS]

00:17:44   half practically of his life being ruled [TS]

00:17:46   by the rules of this university where [TS]

00:17:48   you have to pay tuition and you have to [TS]

00:17:49   do this but you can't do bad magic and [TS]

00:17:51   these people blah blah and it goes right [TS]

00:17:53   into the mayor Harvey process that guy's [TS]

00:17:55   name [TS]

00:17:55   whereas another another place where he's [TS]

00:17:57   not in control he's got to be nice to [TS]

00:17:58   the Kingsley guy are also is gonna hang [TS]

00:18:00   him or kill my keys at the mercy of a [TS]

00:18:01   rule system bronze ring yeah he's all he [TS]

00:18:04   has been defined system in any second if [TS]

00:18:06   you runs afoul of the system it's a [TS]

00:18:07   life-threatening thing either because [TS]

00:18:09   he's gonna be poor and destitute out on [TS]

00:18:10   the street and out of the university or [TS]

00:18:11   biggest are just gonna hang them because [TS]

00:18:13   the guys capricious and very powerful [TS]

00:18:14   and then he goes into the Adem same [TS]

00:18:17   situation should we kill them should be [TS]

00:18:19   trained him i don't know like he's [TS]

00:18:20   always at the mercy of will train him [TS]

00:18:22   and ven killing right [TS]

00:18:25   didn't see that one coming he's always [TS]

00:18:27   at the mercy of these systems that he [TS]

00:18:29   did invent so and even in the face [TS]

00:18:32   another situation like this character [TS]

00:18:33   goes from one set of I think of it like [TS]

00:18:36   school like if you are in a school [TS]

00:18:38   system where you have to abide by the [TS]

00:18:40   set of rules that you think arbitrary [TS]

00:18:41   unfair whatever every place he goes it's [TS]

00:18:43   like school program where someone else [TS]

00:18:45   is in charge of him [TS]

00:18:46   it does it does have that IDC assertive [TS]

00:18:48   feeling to it though doesn't it where he [TS]

00:18:50   wanders around from place to place in [TS]

00:18:52   there you know I the odyssey is a little [TS]

00:18:54   like the original anthology series this [TS]

00:18:57   myth like and now there will be some [TS]

00:18:59   adventures here for a while and then he [TS]

00:19:00   will move on but boring bureaucratic [TS]

00:19:02   because it's like a rule principle is [TS]

00:19:04   managing this the King's gonna hang your [TS]

00:19:06   you didn't follow the right rules for [TS]

00:19:08   these ninja people's it's the bureau and [TS]

00:19:10   kisses the Cyclops have a very clear set [TS]

00:19:12   of rules roddis on the door to the [TS]

00:19:14   Cyclops's cave it said you know [TS]

00:19:16   employees must hand wash hands before [TS]

00:19:18   they return to work and you know all [TS]

00:19:20   that sort of thing right there ass ring [TS]

00:19:22   without the event the LED ring for the [TS]

00:19:24   Cyclops would ring and you [TS]

00:19:26   yeah exactly so can I talk about women [TS]

00:19:30   I don't know why Ren doesn't bring this [TS]

00:19:32   up because she's supposed to be the [TS]

00:19:33   female representative but I continued [TS]

00:19:35   date especially in fact happen [TS]

00:19:37   yeah I haven't had a chance to talk [TS]

00:19:38   about the women you to talk right also [TS]

00:19:42   so artists artists of the sex part of [TS]

00:19:44   the women [TS]

00:19:45   in this book gets to have guests to have [TS]

00:19:49   sex with the sexy supernatural being in [TS]

00:19:52   the universe is at a time [TS]

00:19:55   Maria and who teaches him the ways of [TS]

00:19:57   players right we don't know and a ninja [TS]

00:20:00   warrior woman who mixes casual [TS]

00:20:02   commitment free sex in with her training [TS]

00:20:04   and who if you knock her up won't be on [TS]

00:20:07   you for any responsibility because she [TS]

00:20:08   doesn't believe you had anything to do [TS]

00:20:09   with that baby [TS]

00:20:10   well that's her closer this is yeah this [TS]

00:20:13   is that what you Larry Ultimate Male and [TS]

00:20:15   the sex fantasy book where all your [TS]

00:20:17   desires will be fulfilled in multiple [TS]

00:20:19   possible ways you have your main [TS]

00:20:20   leverages you have your sex goddess you [TS]

00:20:22   have your warrior woman is just there [TS]

00:20:23   for casual sex now for fun [TS]

00:20:25   well we did go eighteen hundred pages [TS]

00:20:27   with him being a virgin [TS]

00:20:28   I know but like it's just ridiculous [TS]

00:20:30   like it I its juvenile it's silly its [TS]

00:20:34   movement I'll that the female characters [TS]

00:20:36   are it's it's a parody of itself I don't [TS]

00:20:38   know if he meant it to be a parody but [TS]

00:20:40   like can you add and I got so so this is [TS]

00:20:44   this is my theory on on women and in [TS]

00:20:47   general the the way that the killer [TS]

00:20:50   chronicles are lined up is that because [TS]

00:20:53   it is a story of both and the way he is [TS]

00:20:55   going it's very much I feel like every [TS]

00:20:58   single character and this includes [TS]

00:20:59   Ambrose antenna and everybody else is [TS]

00:21:01   seen through his eyes and as such is [TS]

00:21:03   told through the perspective of him at [TS]

00:21:05   that point I feel like I'm and I may be [TS]

00:21:08   terribly wrong but I feel like the [TS]

00:21:10   reason why didn't it comes across as [TS]

00:21:11   boring the reason why Ambrose comes [TS]

00:21:13   across as one-dimensional because we're [TS]

00:21:15   only seeing both perspective at the age [TS]

00:21:18   that he's at and hopefully when we get [TS]

00:21:22   into the third book i'm crossing my [TS]

00:21:24   fingers that things become more [TS]

00:21:26   three-dimensional but it's the older guy [TS]

00:21:28   telling the story that I brought this up [TS]

00:21:29   in the first podcast like I was in on [TS]

00:21:31   that theory but it's the older one [TS]

00:21:33   telling story its not I know what you're [TS]

00:21:34   saying like what is he telling it from [TS]

00:21:36   like this is what I thought when I was [TS]

00:21:37   18 and I was an idiot and what we don't [TS]

00:21:40   have a counterexample right because [TS]

00:21:41   they're there are no women in the [TS]

00:21:43   framing story really right [TS]

00:21:44   no I mean it's well any have em and [TS]

00:21:46   that's the other part that that's the [TS]

00:21:47   part we see through chroniclers eyes [TS]

00:21:48   right we have we have no I idea of how [TS]

00:21:51   we treat women how women are described [TS]

00:21:52   there's no baseline we only have the the [TS]

00:21:54   past narrative quote relating the [TS]

00:21:56   stories of women so [TS]

00:21:58   but if you were telling the story when [TS]

00:21:59   you were 16 wouldn't you be saying about [TS]

00:22:01   boys I was such an idiot a 16 here's [TS]

00:22:03   what I thought about x y&z but he never [TS]

00:22:04   does that [TS]

00:22:05   well I don't know I feel like there's a [TS]

00:22:07   fair amount of I was an idiot overlaid [TS]

00:22:09   in a lot of this story jumped off a roof [TS]

00:22:11   right but that's what he doesn't say [TS]

00:22:13   that about the women he doesn't say all [TS]

00:22:14   night long for dinner and she was so [TS]

00:22:16   wonderful you know he doesn't have that [TS]

00:22:18   contrast that we do have one at least [TS]

00:22:20   one Orie who I think is one you know a [TS]

00:22:22   female character that's actually not a [TS]

00:22:25   mite yeah some i will develop a question [TS]

00:22:28   that one right but I'm saying like she's [TS]

00:22:31   not she's not a sex object [TS]

00:22:33   she's not you know I you serious flow [TS]

00:22:35   jerk [TS]

00:22:36   I think she's got interesting there's a [TS]

00:22:38   there's a story there is a story behind [TS]

00:22:40   the only one that's not available for [TS]

00:22:41   sex is the mentally handicapped one [TS]

00:22:43   because him being sexually attracted [TS]

00:22:44   there would be too creepy [TS]

00:22:46   I don't know if she's mentally [TS]

00:22:47   handicapped well you know I mean I think [TS]

00:22:49   your brain is broken [TS]

00:22:50   yeah but she I assume she's a neighbor [TS]

00:22:52   who went into yahoo and that was that [TS]

00:22:54   was my just clearly not so it's not [TS]

00:22:56   appropriate for couples to be telling us [TS]

00:22:58   that love who I caught a glimpse of her [TS]

00:22:59   leg in this sexy drag that she was [TS]

00:23:01   wearing up from the sewers you know it's [TS]

00:23:02   not but every other every other woman we [TS]

00:23:05   hear that about [TS]

00:23:06   he sets up his friend for one of them [TS]

00:23:08   know to be yeah there's music there's a [TS]

00:23:10   couple other girls in the series you [TS]

00:23:11   love any girl who he who isn't described [TS]

00:23:14   in terms of how they are attractive to [TS]

00:23:16   the male's accepted because except the [TS]

00:23:18   grill there's the there's the other girl [TS]

00:23:21   got a feeling she's always always [TS]

00:23:23   describe how beautiful she is and how [TS]

00:23:25   are ya tractor dark Debbie same deal [TS]

00:23:27   very attractive sexy girl was flirting [TS]

00:23:29   over their desk arguing over money [TS]

00:23:31   Dennis certainly like that's that's the [TS]

00:23:34   thing with coats [TS]

00:23:35   I don't know I thought is it just a [TS]

00:23:37   hound dog what can you say what I feel [TS]

00:23:39   like it's flirting all in different ways [TS]

00:23:41   though because i wouldn't call i [TS]

00:23:43   wouldn't call the Fela flirting the same [TS]

00:23:45   on the same level as the Debbie flirting [TS]

00:23:46   or on the same level as the ferroli [TS]

00:23:48   including every possible type of [TS]

00:23:50   learning well but I'm just saying the [TS]

00:23:52   the fact that they're different like you [TS]

00:23:54   read you read juvenile books bye bye [TS]

00:23:56   guys who are you know clearly a little [TS]

00:23:58   bit sex craved or putting funneling us [TS]

00:24:01   it's an obsession into that and you get [TS]

00:24:03   all the female [TS]

00:24:07   it wasn't there were no female [TS]

00:24:08   characters intelligent but yeah I'm just [TS]

00:24:12   saying like when you read it when you [TS]

00:24:14   read a book by an author who is clearly [TS]

00:24:16   a little sex-crazed all of the women [TS]

00:24:18   come across the exact same way so it's [TS]

00:24:20   all like all of all the women you know [TS]

00:24:22   our sexy for this exact same reason you [TS]

00:24:25   always hear legs come up benefiting [TS]

00:24:26   robert jordan yes Robert Jordan is a [TS]

00:24:30   perfect example if you want an author [TS]

00:24:32   who is terrible at women robert jordan [TS]

00:24:34   terry terry goodkind is another perfect [TS]

00:24:36   example of this where it's just to all [TS]

00:24:38   of the all of the women have very [TS]

00:24:40   similar yeah all the women have very [TS]

00:24:42   similarly descriptive characteristics [TS]

00:24:45   and the thing that I find interesting [TS]

00:24:46   about this is yes Dana is completely [TS]

00:24:49   wonder she's one-dimensional she's [TS]

00:24:51   two-dimensional she's floating and [TS]

00:24:53   whatever but could both says hey that he [TS]

00:24:54   puts her up on a pedestal at the very [TS]

00:24:56   beginning with a book he says this is [TS]

00:24:58   the girl that was completely unreachable [TS]

00:24:59   and this is why and it wasn't like he [TS]

00:25:02   doesn't go just she's unreachable [TS]

00:25:04   because she's pretty [TS]

00:25:05   it's very much like this she is this [TS]

00:25:07   unknowable object and literally [TS]

00:25:09   unreachable [TS]

00:25:10   yes effort for months at a time doesn't [TS]

00:25:12   it cellphone store like magic magic [TS]

00:25:14   cellphone have magic and they can't have [TS]

00:25:16   magic phones he's gonna he's gonna [TS]

00:25:17   artifice 18 I think you can make one in [TS]

00:25:19   the fishery in about a month right now [TS]

00:25:22   she's writing her own Queen Killer [TS]

00:25:23   chronicles yeah exactly [TS]

00:25:25   well I fascinating i would be relaxed [TS]

00:25:27   that's one of the things that word cloud [TS]

00:25:29   my thought was a really funny theory [TS]

00:25:31   which is that he is obsessed with [TS]

00:25:33   finding the champion and the charians [TS]

00:25:36   hey opposition is this other group that [TS]

00:25:41   is the mirror your idea mirror so what [TS]

00:25:43   so what if she's obsessed with finding [TS]

00:25:45   me a mirror and they're working like the [TS]

00:25:48   opposite side of the same case this [TS]

00:25:50   entire time and different did anyone [TS]

00:25:52   assumed that her her patron was one of [TS]

00:25:54   the Chandra and I mean oh yeah kind of [TS]

00:25:56   more ideas maybe the guy he's playing [TS]

00:25:57   the board game with two yeah yeah [TS]

00:26:00   mm but who knows I mean that could be [TS]

00:26:02   the that's just a lot of the economy of [TS]

00:26:04   characters talking there which is her [TS]

00:26:06   perhaps we've seen her patron and we [TS]

00:26:08   already know who he is it was the guy [TS]

00:26:10   who is playing chess with i'm going to [TS]

00:26:11   call cheat on that because that [TS]

00:26:13   character like you have to put in [TS]

00:26:15   something that makes a suspected that [TS]

00:26:16   guy was a hundred percent straight-up [TS]

00:26:18   he's especially is a good guy and [TS]

00:26:19   and that's what makes me suspect its [TS]

00:26:21   batteries you know what I mean he's yeah [TS]

00:26:25   it doesn't see it doesn't seem like that [TS]

00:26:26   kind of book doesn't seem like the kind [TS]

00:26:28   of book worries like pulling like that's [TS]

00:26:29   like a new uniforms room murder where [TS]

00:26:31   you make like the one guy who didn't [TS]

00:26:32   expect it's the priest has been friendly [TS]

00:26:34   the whole time lots of cheap move you [TS]

00:26:35   know what I mean yeah I mean I feel like [TS]

00:26:37   there are no new characters introduced [TS]

00:26:39   this book all the time that i don't i [TS]

00:26:40   feel like it's definitely somebody we've [TS]

00:26:43   heard of before but I don't I don't [TS]

00:26:45   necessarily feel like if somebody yeah [TS]

00:26:47   somebody could both knows well one of [TS]

00:26:50   the Chandra and could be absolutely be [TS]

00:26:52   the case i love that though I i do love [TS]

00:26:55   the fact that there is this super scary [TS]

00:26:58   band of supernatural creatures where if [TS]

00:27:01   you if you speak about them a little too [TS]

00:27:03   much they will come and kill you because [TS]

00:27:04   they don't want to be known as the bad [TS]

00:27:06   of them for not being known really well [TS]

00:27:08   what was your reason to kill everybody [TS]

00:27:11   well because everything kill everybody [TS]

00:27:12   so they just wiped off the map so nobody [TS]

00:27:14   even associated oh my god those people [TS]

00:27:16   died I don't know who did it we're [TS]

00:27:18   talking again [TS]

00:27:19   I mean the whole book is surrounded [TS]

00:27:21   around the the concept of names and [TS]

00:27:24   stories and that kind of so it makes [TS]

00:27:26   perfect sense that you know nameservers [TS]

00:27:28   stories are dangerous means that the [TS]

00:27:30   most dangerous thing i mean i love that [TS]

00:27:32   that everybody does to ride this whole [TS]

00:27:34   thing about him being like you're you're [TS]

00:27:35   searching for fairy tales right like [TS]

00:27:37   that was always you know kind of [TS]

00:27:39   interesting is our date but they accept [TS]

00:27:41   every other movie is very specifically a [TS]

00:27:44   ridiculous has come on [TS]

00:27:45   well it's you know even in a magical [TS]

00:27:47   world you've got to have limits right [TS]

00:27:49   you've got to have you've got to have [TS]

00:27:51   the high-end that that's not actually [TS]

00:27:53   going to happen is beyond the pale [TS]

00:27:54   yeah exactly so do we like this book [TS]

00:27:58   actually i cani cani list of all the [TS]

00:28:00   things i like about it but i do like a [TS]

00:28:02   bunch of things i'm not at all right [TS]

00:28:03   let's do that [TS]

00:28:05   whoo not real genius Jason I like the [TS]

00:28:08   women characters that I like the the the [TS]

00:28:12   shipwreck [TS]

00:28:13   yeah it's resetting shipwrecked not so I [TS]

00:28:16   like almost all the many settings that [TS]

00:28:18   they put everything in the little stuff [TS]

00:28:20   like a dragon hunt in the last one right [TS]

00:28:22   which is well i didn't i didn't like [TS]

00:28:23   that but the dragon the Severn I like [TS]

00:28:26   that whole setup that was fun them in [TS]

00:28:27   we left it before it got to be boring or [TS]

00:28:29   stupid that the Adem and admir and Tempe [TS]

00:28:32   and the whole talking with gestures and [TS]

00:28:34   hit that character that character in [TS]

00:28:36   particular is one of my favorite [TS]

00:28:37   characters he was interesting and [TS]

00:28:39   strange and in the beginning you thought [TS]

00:28:41   he was quite mysterious guy but he gets [TS]

00:28:43   back to the village realize he's just [TS]

00:28:44   kind of like a lowly runt of the litter [TS]

00:28:46   and he really shouldn't have done what [TS]

00:28:48   he did I like those guys like that [TS]

00:28:51   culture that was a funny little story [TS]

00:28:52   there [TS]

00:28:53   I like the thing in the tree that was a [TS]

00:28:55   good idea that thing that knows all [TS]

00:28:56   possible yeah and tries to cause the [TS]

00:28:59   most harm based on info that's it like [TS]

00:29:01   all these things are our basis of you [TS]

00:29:02   can imagine like yours best fantasy and [TS]

00:29:04   science fiction having a little stories [TS]

00:29:05   in each one of these settings they'd all [TS]

00:29:06   be good you know the tree I just for a [TS]

00:29:09   second I what I love about the tree is [TS]

00:29:11   that it is completely consistent with [TS]

00:29:13   the the kind of many worlds idea that [TS]

00:29:15   that the tree sees all the possible [TS]

00:29:18   things and knows that if it says certain [TS]

00:29:20   words those only appear in this eventual [TS]

00:29:23   outcome so it says those words which is [TS]

00:29:25   just wow what a crazy idea and you can [TS]

00:29:29   see why nobody would want to listen to [TS]

00:29:30   it and why it would be really evil [TS]

00:29:32   anybody in the face around but even [TS]

00:29:34   they're scared of it's like you don't [TS]

00:29:35   even don't even go there don't even talk [TS]

00:29:36   don't do not engage with that thing [TS]

00:29:38   whose name I can't pronounce right [TS]

00:29:39   don't talk to the tree and then there's [TS]

00:29:42   also the tree and terms of the parallels [TS]

00:29:44   the tree with the ATM where there's the [TS]

00:29:47   tree that has the like the sword will [TS]

00:29:50   stand ya ya crazy so all those little [TS]

00:29:53   settings i like the sword where you have [TS]

00:29:55   to memorize the entire history out yes [TS]

00:29:57   every prior owner there's so many that's [TS]

00:29:59   that's what it makes you want to read [TS]

00:30:01   these books ever there's so many those [TS]

00:30:02   little touches a good sorry Bob rich so [TS]

00:30:04   many little things in there it's just [TS]

00:30:05   they do not hold together into a [TS]

00:30:07   cohesive hold it's a story that i think [TS]

00:30:09   is going to be successful but all little [TS]

00:30:10   pieces I like chronicles you know it's [TS]

00:30:12   like it's like a good book exploded and [TS]

00:30:15   these are the pieces and I particularly [TS]

00:30:16   think Martin Martin wow this is little [TS]

00:30:19   piece like this one shiny boy but you [TS]

00:30:20   have deployed of the book is that he is [TS]

00:30:23   telling how he became a legend so he's [TS]

00:30:25   telling all these little stories because [TS]

00:30:26   all these little stories are how legends [TS]

00:30:28   are you know that's how our culture [TS]

00:30:30   deals with the story search the group of [TS]

00:30:32   stories that stand alone [TS]

00:30:34   and they're super cool and then they get [TS]

00:30:36   you know exaggerated throughout the time [TS]

00:30:38   and then suddenly he is all-powerful [TS]

00:30:39   when he's really just a guy who's kind [TS]

00:30:42   of collapsing under the pressure of the [TS]

00:30:44   legend that he kind of helped create and [TS]

00:30:47   the people who don't know how you [TS]

00:30:48   reproduce that i can draw the line on [TS]

00:30:50   that when I was like come on people [TS]

00:30:51   I think everyone figures out of [TS]

00:30:53   reproduction marks if you don't figure [TS]

00:30:55   out a reproduction works [TS]

00:30:56   you are not successful as a society as a [TS]

00:30:59   people [TS]

00:31:00   you figured you did something people [TS]

00:31:01   figure out I'm sorry homunculus it's a [TS]

00:31:03   it's a fantasy book maybe it doesn't [TS]

00:31:05   work that way mrs. Jarrow i love the [TS]

00:31:06   fact though that they're very insistent [TS]

00:31:08   on it because it does it just puts that [TS]

00:31:09   point that you need to maybe reexamine [TS]

00:31:12   your maybe it will wait a second is that [TS]

00:31:13   just my culture who thinks that I mean [TS]

00:31:15   obviously not but it's such a funny [TS]

00:31:17   moment of like but no yourself only [TS]

00:31:19   there were some experiment we could run [TS]

00:31:21   to you yes well maybe we had the means [TS]

00:31:23   the scientific method to figure out this [TS]

00:31:25   eternal mystery but they don't they live [TS]

00:31:27   they live in the rocks they don't have [TS]

00:31:29   any of value they live in rocks or was [TS]

00:31:31   it was exciting to hear it was like man [TS]

00:31:33   mommies or something i forget what the [TS]

00:31:34   slang term was for you believe in it was [TS]

00:31:37   a mister mister mom's you believe [TS]

00:31:39   Michael Michael Keaton's you believe it [TS]

00:31:41   oh so we purchased second miss what else [TS]

00:31:45   what else John anything hot and i think [TS]

00:31:47   that's it for all the things that i like [TS]

00:31:49   that it be [TS]

00:31:51   yeah but that's basically no but I i [TS]

00:31:53   agree with you completely that the the [TS]

00:31:55   thing as much as i mock these [TS]

00:31:57   regressions inside digressions lot of [TS]

00:31:59   the aggressions were really fun and and [TS]

00:32:02   and rich and and enjoyable on the on [TS]

00:32:06   their own pull apart even if the larger [TS]

00:32:09   thing I'm will wait wait a second are we [TS]

00:32:10   ever gonna get back to all this other [TS]

00:32:12   stuff that's going on where you want to [TS]

00:32:14   do you want to get back yeah just hang [TS]

00:32:16   out here and can't wait till we see den [TS]

00:32:17   again [TS]

00:32:18   no yeah that's where it's all unrequited [TS]

00:32:21   an awkward I'd forgotten she exists and [TS]

00:32:24   now we're back and looking for her and [TS]

00:32:25   Severn loan it's like just come come on [TS]

00:32:27   tell me who you're but what who your [TS]

00:32:30   patron is no answer [TS]

00:32:31   he's got no la now got like a suppliant [TS]

00:32:34   I cannot tell you who my patron is oh [TS]

00:32:37   but I love you but but no but I can't [TS]

00:32:39   tell you because the polygonal your [TS]

00:32:42   understatement [TS]

00:32:43   now I have to go kill a dragon [TS]

00:32:47   and I could take the dragon yeah my [TS]

00:32:49   absolute favorite parts about this book [TS]

00:32:52   are well two things 1i love the fact [TS]

00:32:56   that these are you know to almost [TS]

00:32:58   thousand-page books and what this one is [TS]

00:33:01   a thousand pages i think we're 994 pages [TS]

00:33:05   that don't feel like thousand-page books [TS]

00:33:08   i read each of these i read them [TS]

00:33:10   back-to-back because I happened to pick [TS]

00:33:12   up a name of the wind after wise man's [TS]

00:33:14   fear would come out and I read those [TS]

00:33:16   back-to-back in two days just because no [TS]

00:33:19   just the clothes [TS]

00:33:20   yes i know it say I didn't have day [TS]

00:33:23   three and it drove me insane [TS]

00:33:25   we're at a tavern I was at the tavern of [TS]

00:33:27   my apple pie and cider the tavern of my [TS]

00:33:30   room I think you know what's what's most [TS]

00:33:32   impressive about that though really is [TS]

00:33:35   the amount of mocking before you read [TS]

00:33:38   those [TS]

00:33:38   yes when when other people are reading [TS]

00:33:40   those books just just that I i was i was [TS]

00:33:44   mocking these books i was mocking these [TS]

00:33:45   books because dan was rereading and [TS]

00:33:47   gloating does not become you mr. know i [TS]

00:33:49   was curious I was like oh yeah well i [TS]

00:33:52   was looking over her shoulder it's like [TS]

00:33:53   oh weird magic words and they're [TS]

00:33:56   traveling i have read this but are there [TS]

00:33:59   more true so yeah you should have [TS]

00:34:01   continued marketing business for all [TS]

00:34:02   valid mocks me they are they are valid [TS]

00:34:05   marks but you know what it's an [TS]

00:34:06   incredibly well-written book and it's [TS]

00:34:08   not it is not incredibly well-written [TS]

00:34:10   yes yes yes I was John that's what's [TS]

00:34:13   giving you coming back if anything it's [TS]

00:34:15   the writing I mean in the parts that you [TS]

00:34:17   enjoy it was poorly written and when I [TS]

00:34:19   don't know probably was party wouldn't [TS]

00:34:21   hold together structure of the sentences [TS]

00:34:23   and stuff like that like it's competent [TS]

00:34:25   and the idiosyncrasies are charming [TS]

00:34:27   instead of irritating for the most part [TS]

00:34:29   but i think we call that good writing [TS]

00:34:32   yeah I you know what I'm not saying it's [TS]

00:34:33   Hemingway I'm just saying it's you know [TS]

00:34:35   it's not having what if you can write a [TS]

00:34:37   thousand-page book if it was poorly Rand [TS]

00:34:40   and you wouldn't be coming back but this [TS]

00:34:41   is this is the opposite of him it was [TS]

00:34:43   not Cormac McCarthy yeah you can keep if [TS]

00:34:46   you can keep me occupied for an entire [TS]

00:34:49   day for a thousand-page book and make it [TS]

00:34:51   feel like I've only read two hundred [TS]

00:34:53   pages i count that is good ring it's [TS]

00:34:55   it's a book limbus yes it's a paper and [TS]

00:34:57   i will give you that it is paige Turner [TS]

00:34:59   is not [TS]

00:35:00   it's not citizen calibre page for [TS]

00:35:01   everything ok kindle clicker also i mean [TS]

00:35:03   i respect you that I really really [TS]

00:35:05   respect his ability to work [TS]

00:35:08   music into this and to work like 40 [TS]

00:35:10   Lian's i am back dialogue and all of [TS]

00:35:13   that it's it's really really interesting [TS]

00:35:15   to see those those fields and those sort [TS]

00:35:17   of things interweaving and the music [TS]

00:35:19   stuff i mean coming from a classical [TS]

00:35:21   music background and reading these books [TS]

00:35:24   it's really really touching some of the [TS]

00:35:27   things in here [TS]

00:35:28   strike right at the core of people like [TS]

00:35:31   especially me like as a musician I'm [TS]

00:35:33   like yep i completely identify with what [TS]

00:35:35   you're talking about [TS]

00:35:36   and the way you're saying this is [TS]

00:35:38   exactly how i feel and it's you know you [TS]

00:35:40   don't find that all that often where [TS]

00:35:42   someone can capture passion accurately [TS]

00:35:44   on the page and I really that was really [TS]

00:35:46   impressive i'm still going with my [TS]

00:35:48   exploding book theory because it's like [TS]

00:35:50   for example that little piece that piece [TS]

00:35:52   of the music you know I recognize that [TS]

00:35:54   as it was a good party even though i'm [TS]

00:35:55   not a musical person as as a good part [TS]

00:35:57   of the book there are many aspects of [TS]

00:35:59   this that are exemplary I just don't [TS]

00:36:01   think they all fit together into an [TS]

00:36:03   overall really good book really good [TS]

00:36:05   story to pay trying to because i love [TS]

00:36:07   little nuggets and it's like I'm it's [TS]

00:36:08   like a video game with is really cool [TS]

00:36:09   you know maybe really cool boss battles [TS]

00:36:13   are really cool levels here and there [TS]

00:36:14   and there's lots of director in between [TS]

00:36:15   when you're done it doesn't hold up and [TS]

00:36:16   is like so as a cohesive whole story so [TS]

00:36:19   even though I keep wanting to go through [TS]

00:36:21   but I want to get to the night next [TS]

00:36:22   interesting nugget I keep turning the [TS]

00:36:23   pages and each of those each of those [TS]

00:36:25   nuggets is good and they're good aspects [TS]

00:36:27   of it i don't think i like the mix is [TS]

00:36:29   right i don't think the formula don't [TS]

00:36:31   think he's got it down yet [TS]

00:36:32   you know you're a rat you're a rat in a [TS]

00:36:34   maze John now looking for that next [TS]

00:36:36   piece of GMO you know they're good [TS]

00:36:38   pieces of cheese here and there you know [TS]

00:36:39   exploded off of the large wheel of [TS]

00:36:41   cheese most of its amazed and it is not [TS]

00:36:45   a way to weigh 250 pages medicine got [TS]

00:36:49   your veteran fantasy reader what do you [TS]

00:36:51   think I completely disagree with John [TS]

00:36:55   because i think that the the beauty of [TS]

00:36:58   this this story is that it is so [TS]

00:37:01   fragmented and kind of building up into [TS]

00:37:03   this framing story which I know I keep [TS]

00:37:05   repeating this but I think that's the [TS]

00:37:07   the whole thing is about storytelling [TS]

00:37:09   and [TS]

00:37:10   how you know these different things are [TS]

00:37:12   going to weave together to form this [TS]

00:37:14   legend of this guy and I think it's [TS]

00:37:16   built like I could be sorely [TS]

00:37:18   disappointed because I am assuming that [TS]

00:37:20   it's going to build up to something in [TS]

00:37:22   book 3 and something will happen but if [TS]

00:37:24   it doesn't then i will agree with John [TS]

00:37:26   retroactive with high- assuming the [TS]

00:37:28   explanation book 3 will be disappointed [TS]

00:37:30   and I can't believe Scott isn't also [TS]

00:37:31   assuming that as my fellow passive we [TS]

00:37:33   have an optimist and is optimist aren't [TS]

00:37:37   you just assuming whatever the [TS]

00:37:38   explanation I haven't booked three it's [TS]

00:37:39   going to be disappointing for you know [TS]

00:37:41   there's no there's no way they can [TS]

00:37:42   explain anything to build up to the hype [TS]

00:37:44   they have over at the two brothers john [TS]

00:37:47   says the glass is half empty [TS]

00:37:48   Scott's as half-full I say it's got half [TS]

00:37:51   as much stuff as it contains exactly [TS]

00:37:55   I i have faith in I think that he [TS]

00:37:57   process is a very good storyteller and I [TS]

00:38:00   have a feeling that he will have a [TS]

00:38:03   satisfying conclusion and I appreciate [TS]

00:38:07   that it will only be three books so even [TS]

00:38:09   if it isn't that satisfying it didn't [TS]

00:38:10   take that long to read them is a good [TS]

00:38:12   short story teller don't have a good [TS]

00:38:14   novelist that's a good short stories in [TS]

00:38:16   that last novel alright damn red you [TS]

00:38:22   have things to say about I mean it [TS]

00:38:23   sounds it sounds like reading your very [TS]

00:38:25   positive about it i'm very positive [TS]

00:38:27   about it was it's the first series i've [TS]

00:38:29   read in a while that made me really [TS]

00:38:30   excited to start reading fantasy books [TS]

00:38:32   again and that's that is a hard thing to [TS]

00:38:34   do [TS]

00:38:35   yes what about you damn i actually [TS]

00:38:38   really like I agree a lot with Scott [TS]

00:38:40   because he's smart but you know how it [TS]

00:38:42   pains me and so I I know but I i think [TS]

00:38:46   we talked about this a little bit in the [TS]

00:38:47   name of the wind podcast about the idea [TS]

00:38:48   of this being a book more about [TS]

00:38:50   storytelling and I think you know that's [TS]

00:38:54   a subject that happens we really [TS]

00:38:55   interesting to me and perhaps that's why [TS]

00:38:56   I found it so entertaining and enjoyable [TS]

00:38:58   that sort of meta aspect of well what is [TS]

00:39:03   a fantasy legend right we have so many [TS]

00:39:04   books that are about these [TS]

00:39:05   larger-than-life heroes and the [TS]

00:39:08   adventures they go on and so it's kind [TS]

00:39:10   of interesting to have them be you know [TS]

00:39:12   that flipped on their head to a certain [TS]

00:39:13   extent and be like yes they're all these [TS]

00:39:15   stories but we are hearing them through [TS]

00:39:16   this person's point of view and for you [TS]

00:39:18   know this person basically appears to be [TS]

00:39:20   you know a bartender [TS]

00:39:22   yeah there's some there's some [TS]

00:39:24   interesting contradiction is going you [TS]

00:39:25   know on an errand and again like Scott I [TS]

00:39:28   think you know the third book if we're [TS]

00:39:30   building to an end here then it [TS]

00:39:33   hopefully it pays off on all the stuff [TS]

00:39:36   that we've sort of had put out there and [TS]

00:39:39   I I'd certainly and enjoyed the first [TS]

00:39:41   two and look forward to reading the [TS]

00:39:42   third one [TS]

00:39:43   Jason how do you feel about these books [TS]

00:39:46   aah SI not a regular fantasy writer you [TS]

00:39:49   know I i enjoyed them [TS]

00:39:50   I i I'm kind of in the middle in that I [TS]

00:39:54   i agree that I a lot of this is about [TS]

00:39:59   storytelling and the framing story is [TS]

00:40:00   important because he's building his own [TS]

00:40:02   legend in his own way and so there may [TS]

00:40:05   be some level of not necessarily [TS]

00:40:07   unreliability but he chooses the stories [TS]

00:40:09   he tells and and I think that's [TS]

00:40:11   interesting i like the richness of the [TS]

00:40:12   world and the fact that he does seem to [TS]

00:40:15   be planting seeds of of stuff early on [TS]

00:40:18   that in hindsight or if you go and read [TS]

00:40:20   a blog on the internet you can see he [TS]

00:40:22   knows what was happening in the second [TS]

00:40:24   book in the first book and so it's [TS]

00:40:25   internally consistent which I like I [TS]

00:40:28   also shared John's feeling that there [TS]

00:40:30   are there are times when I thought yes [TS]

00:40:34   the individual moments hold together [TS]

00:40:35   better than the book as a whole and that [TS]

00:40:38   it's a little bit you know chamblee and [TS]

00:40:40   and rambly and and and messy and it [TS]

00:40:45   would make me laugh saying that were [TS]

00:40:46   five digression is down but uh but that [TS]

00:40:49   I i do think that he's got a you know [TS]

00:40:52   he's got a lot of skill on display and [TS]

00:40:57   my concern though is is that job I [TS]

00:41:01   worried that John may be right i think [TS]

00:41:03   i've got some hope that that this will [TS]

00:41:05   come off but it is you know the [TS]

00:41:09   University stuff does feel like we we we [TS]

00:41:11   already have a lot of that we're getting [TS]

00:41:13   it again and you know i'm not entirely [TS]

00:41:17   sure if the if the overarching story is [TS]

00:41:20   maybe a little too messy and not [TS]

00:41:23   progressing as fast as maybe I prefer [TS]

00:41:26   but you know i'm enjoying the moments [TS]

00:41:28   and I'm enjoying the richness of it and [TS]

00:41:31   so I'm willing to take the ride even if [TS]

00:41:33   if it ever got some concerns about [TS]

00:41:36   about some of the details so you know I [TS]

00:41:37   i agree with everybody everybody's right [TS]

00:41:39   god bless us everyone [TS]

00:41:42   now I think we all agree they were all [TS]

00:41:43   when the third book comes out we'll all [TS]

00:41:45   read it like even though i said all [TS]

00:41:46   these bad things about it like it keep I [TS]

00:41:48   keeps me reading because i want those [TS]

00:41:50   fun little parts and I'm not offended by [TS]

00:41:53   him too i just think alike but jason [TS]

00:41:54   said is true i think he has lots of raw [TS]

00:41:56   talent he just doesn't know how to [TS]

00:41:57   harness it yet in my opinion it doesn't [TS]

00:41:59   mean that the book is not worth reading [TS]

00:42:00   it just means that i can given his [TS]

00:42:03   talent and these things these little [TS]

00:42:04   things that he's made I can envision a [TS]

00:42:06   better book than what he's written if he [TS]

00:42:08   could have that the same town focused [TS]

00:42:10   more into into a hole like he hasn't [TS]

00:42:12   quite figured that out yet i think i [TS]

00:42:14   think that he is trying to tell a [TS]

00:42:16   destroyed story though and that's that's [TS]

00:42:18   what i have been doing that I know I [TS]

00:42:20   know what you're saying I know the thing [TS]

00:42:21   you're describing I wish I could [TS]

00:42:22   remember there was some story right [TS]

00:42:23   there is very similar to this of a guy [TS]

00:42:25   telling about legend of itself with that [TS]

00:42:26   going forward and back and maybe there's [TS]

00:42:28   been several of them that's why i can't [TS]

00:42:29   remember it [TS]

00:42:30   I if he's going for that he could pull [TS]

00:42:32   that off better than he's doing here [TS]

00:42:34   I i'm not sure i'd rather read that [TS]

00:42:36   story then a different one with the same [TS]

00:42:39   guy but like it's I I just think he's [TS]

00:42:42   got a lot of raw talent and it's the [TS]

00:42:44   farthest first books like this first in [TS]

00:42:46   a second book [TS]

00:42:47   yeah I think that kind of shows and [TS]

00:42:50   again being a big Stephen King fan he's [TS]

00:42:53   I he's the author was most books that I [TS]

00:42:55   think about every single thing Steven [TS]

00:42:56   can get similar problems he was a young [TS]

00:42:58   author where he had some raw talent but [TS]

00:43:00   he was just kind of a mess right and it [TS]

00:43:02   took just years and years and many many [TS]

00:43:04   books for him to just figure it out and [TS]

00:43:06   push it together and I get that vibe i [TS]

00:43:08   think Patrick Rothfuss is better in his [TS]

00:43:10   first two novels and Stephen King was in [TS]

00:43:11   his first you know several of them so [TS]

00:43:14   he's got stuff I have to say John I I'm [TS]

00:43:17   sorry to do this it's not as if Stephen [TS]

00:43:20   King is one of your favorite movies from [TS]

00:43:22   the 80s but i will say you know rafas is [TS]

00:43:26   way better [TS]

00:43:27   stylistically as a rather than early [TS]

00:43:29   books true but Stephen King does get his [TS]

00:43:32   now together around i like i like [TS]

00:43:34   stephen king but what what his books [TS]

00:43:36   lack that I think I see in the patrick [TS]

00:43:38   rothfuss stuff is just a tie I like the [TS]

00:43:42   style i think that Stephen King has [TS]

00:43:43   always been somebody who's got a style [TS]

00:43:45   but his voice sounds the same in every [TS]

00:43:46   book and [TS]

00:43:47   and I know he's got a lot of things i'm [TS]

00:43:50   not trying to slag on on Stephen King [TS]

00:43:52   here i'm just saying that I don't I [TS]

00:43:54   rothfuss bring some stuff to the table [TS]

00:43:56   that I think Stephen King doesn't but I [TS]

00:43:57   think you're right in the sense that [TS]

00:43:58   stephen king is very good at [TS]

00:44:01   constructing his books in a way that I'm [TS]

00:44:03   not sure Patrick Rothfuss has got that's [TS]

00:44:05   mostly what I'm getting at is stephen [TS]

00:44:06   king is with workmanlike I'm not holding [TS]

00:44:08   out as a great author but he really did [TS]

00:44:10   figure out from his early stories where [TS]

00:44:13   he was and knows how to tell stories how [TS]

00:44:14   to tell scary and 22 his later start [TS]

00:44:16   like at his turning point thinking this [TS]

00:44:18   is obscure be unless you're sixteen [TS]

00:44:20   kingdom but the book bag of bones which [TS]

00:44:21   was not a very good book and not one of [TS]

00:44:23   my favorites but I'd noted that when i [TS]

00:44:25   was reading it as a turning point in his [TS]

00:44:26   writing where he actually finally had a [TS]

00:44:28   little tiny bit of style chops on [TS]

00:44:31   display and ruthless does have more [TS]

00:44:32   style than steaming and probably ever [TS]

00:44:35   will but it's just so loose and on [TS]

00:44:38   unencumbered by anything whereas Stephen [TS]

00:44:40   King was messy and disorganized and bad [TS]

00:44:44   writing and he finally got a little bit [TS]

00:44:45   of style around bag of bones which [TS]

00:44:46   nobody read and then afterwards you sort [TS]

00:44:48   of pulled it together but yeah he did [TS]

00:44:51   Stephen King is work he works the [TS]

00:44:53   formula and you know what you're gonna [TS]

00:44:54   get when you read one of his books but [TS]

00:44:56   it's solid it's every one of his stories [TS]

00:44:58   later ones after that are just [TS]

00:44:59   constructed solidly almost like a [TS]

00:45:02   Hollywood movie only ten times longer [TS]

00:45:04   now write it up right all right well [TS]

00:45:08   this is gonna be the longest book club [TS]

00:45:10   podcast we've ever done but it's almost [TS]

00:45:12   about is the equivalent of about 10,000 [TS]

00:45:15   pages will soothe yeah war 1 2015 oh [TS]

00:45:19   thank you bring it back around I do [TS]

00:45:22   yeah yeah I i don't i don't regret right [TS]

00:45:25   reading either of these series that's [TS]

00:45:28   good that's our new bra write books [TS]

00:45:30   you're done you want those moments of [TS]

00:45:32   your life back now we have a we should [TS]

00:45:35   have our podcast later about you know [TS]

00:45:37   books we regret like oh yeah that's on [TS]

00:45:39   the left is one of those that's why [TS]

00:45:41   maybe reading one area that's the [TS]

00:45:44   problem ya series though because when [TS]

00:45:45   with unfinished serious because then you [TS]

00:45:47   get to the last book and you can [TS]

00:45:48   retroactively Lee regret reading [TS]

00:45:49   everything business last book just is [TS]

00:45:52   completely crap [TS]

00:45:53   excellent yes know what i will do a [TS]

00:45:57   podcast that is books authors or series [TS]

00:46:01   that we regret or refused to read it [TS]

00:46:04   basically will be the the the 60-minute [TS]

00:46:07   hate oh i watch that on CBS 150 minutes [TS]

00:46:12   a CSI hate ya SI hay [TS]

00:46:15   alright well we've covered 2,000 pages [TS]

00:46:19   worth it only took us two thousand [TS]

00:46:20   minutes so until next time on the book [TS]

00:46:24   club where our topic will be if you'd [TS]

00:46:27   like to read ahead the a4 mentioned [TS]

00:46:30   ready player one not we'll share some [TS]

00:46:32   pages long shirt no very short quick [TS]

00:46:34   read sure to be a lot to talk about [TS]

00:46:36   about that and then we'll cart back in [TS]

00:46:38   what you're reading as well because we [TS]

00:46:41   didn't have time to read anything else [TS]

00:46:42   you're reading 2,000 page long fantasy [TS]

00:46:44   novels about about Mitch's whatever not [TS]

00:46:49   going to talk about what's his facebook [TS]

00:46:50   stream d know we might talk about Neal [TS]

00:46:54   Stephenson to i gotta finish reading the [TS]

00:46:56   allstate speaking of a thousand-page but [TS]

00:46:58   that's what I'm really right gotta get [TS]

00:46:59   to it and finish reading ready player [TS]

00:47:01   one first off [TS]

00:47:02   yeah I'm in the midst I know it's hard [TS]

00:47:04   to it's hard to read [TS]

00:47:06   I never learned to read i have hired a [TS]

00:47:07   guy to read through that he summarizes [TS]

00:47:10   it for you know he sounds like this [TS]

00:47:14   yes it's damned or in fact I the Dan [TS]

00:47:19   morons title soundboard i actually just [TS]

00:47:21   use that voice when reading 2 j's he [TS]

00:47:23   calls me and reads me a chapter a night [TS]

00:47:24   before I go to bed [TS]

00:47:26   it pays great guys mm that's why you [TS]

00:47:28   have no time [TS]

00:47:29   that's why I have a job yeah alright so [TS]

00:47:33   until we return with the another edition [TS]

00:47:35   of the book club i would like to thank [TS]

00:47:37   my guest John siracusa thank you for [TS]

00:47:38   being here and talking about the good [TS]

00:47:41   and the bad of patrick rothfuss very [TS]

00:47:43   welcome [TS]

00:47:44   ren called well thank you for being here [TS]

00:47:47   and talking about 2,000 pages worth of [TS]

00:47:48   fantasy it's always a pleasure [TS]

00:47:51   Scott mcnoltey i'm glad you were here to [TS]

00:47:55   provide your traditional wit and [TS]

00:47:57   perspective [TS]

00:47:58   well thank you i feel like this was a [TS]

00:47:59   good podcast that exploded [TS]

00:48:02   well it was a podcast of exploded that's [TS]

00:48:05   every leaving SS and leaving is evident [TS]

00:48:07   arts that's right leaving good parts [TS]

00:48:09   scattered around amidst the wreckage and [TS]

00:48:13   Dan Morgan thank you for being here as [TS]

00:48:16   you are on practically every part make [TS]

00:48:19   it sound like I don't have a life no [TS]

00:48:21   your consistency reading where a [TS]

00:48:23   consistent bandit you're too busy that [TS]

00:48:26   is the name of my marbles consistent too [TS]

00:48:28   busy recording podcaster read books [TS]

00:48:31   sadly i'm reading a book right now as we [TS]

00:48:33   are automatically claims a lot it does I [TS]

00:48:35   alright until next time I Jason Snelling [TS]

00:48:39   for the uncomfortable thanks for [TS]

00:48:40   listening to buy always read read kids [TS]

00:48:44   reading is fundamental stand school [TS]

00:48:48   [Music] [TS]