62: The Pig is Chekhov`s Gun
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the incomparable podcast number 62
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October Atlantia LM
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we're back on the uncomfortable podcast
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I'm your host Jason smell and it is time
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for another edition of our part where we
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meet over skype because we don't
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actually have a booklet really only the
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internet we are here to discuss to 1000
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page long fantasy novels a dance with
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dragons by george RR martin and the wise
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man's fear by Patrick Rothfuss now this
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conversation is in fact going to be so
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long that we're going to start adhere to
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one episode about a dance with dragons
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take a break and come back with a second
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episode about the wise man's fear so
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joining me today to talk about these
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gigantic fantasy tomes are damned Ouran
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High Dam digestion I just want to let
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you know that i put the Dan in dance
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with dragons good dance with dragons
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really exactly i am in fact right now
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with dragons with dragons excellent
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serenity Caldwell is here as well I am
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do you have any dragons dear you I have
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no dragons I am dragon free shame
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John syracuse also joins us hi John no
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spoilers no spoilers you're going to be
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silent for for the first half of this
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podcast because you haven't you haven't
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read the game of thrones books or have
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you only read the first one I've never
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had anything my wife actually started
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reading them after seeing the TV show
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but I'm i don't have room for that in my
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life right now you watch the TV show and
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want to remain unspoiled exactly right
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so we would otherwise spoil that
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whatever six this season supporters for
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2017 John you're cool that's right well
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it'll spoil everything in-between right
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by exactly and we rely for debt and
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Scott Mykelti also joins us he reads
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everything hi Scott
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hello yes it does it's good to hear your
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it's good to be hurt alright so I dance
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with dragons haven't booked in the ne a
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song of ice and fire series which will
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cover roughly seven between seven and
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nine t-ball use by the time it's done
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I think volume up volume 74 i'm really
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looking forward to yeah that'll be good
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that's like a good one huh her all the
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pieces all the pieces will be in place
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yeah a hop with heffalumps the story can
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really begin that that's when they go to
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hogwarts well Tony kill off the last of
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the main characters and we've met
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entirely new cast the people you think
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are being characters are not they're not
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in fact it's an entire book of volume 72
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is entirely about raff the sweetling
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awesome he finally gets his due he gets
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he gets killed
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well as a call back there was one of our
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previous episodes on remember which one
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but yes one of the many previous
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episodes so so dance with dragons i
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think the first thing to talk about
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about this book is that the previous
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book a feast for crows is this weird
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really weird book where he took chunks
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of the book he was writing and pulled
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them out and published them in order to
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not go ten years between books but as a
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result the structure of a dance with
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dragons is very strange because sort of
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midway through characters from the other
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book reappear and the first part of the
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book is in parallel with that other book
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to the point where as I was as i was
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reading it I kept thinking you know in
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the end they're going to need to just
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tear the this book and the other book
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apart stick them together in order for
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anybody to make sense of it because I
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you know I it it's not a very good
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experience you've got it's just it's
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very strange because because you know
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characters just reappear midway through
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and you're like oh right she was in a
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cliffhanger at the end of the last book
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and then we didn't hear from her for 500
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pages it's very strange
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Jason it's actually a pretty good
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experience if you actually have a red a
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feast for crows in six years because as
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it turns out you don't remember anything
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that happened anyways I i concur
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it's coming pretty much coming fresh
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into it like it's a whole new story who
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are as somebody who hadn't read a feast
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for crows and then went into it read it
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and that immediately read Dance with
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Dragons i think i finished feast for
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crows three days before dance with
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dragons came out it actually in my
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opinion holds together just fine
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it's a it's a little weird
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to overlap but at the same time I mean
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I've read enough weird fantasy books
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weather like this is going to be in the
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present then this is going to be in the
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past and this is gonna yeah but what
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would work better if you just took the
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chapters in feast for crows and sort of
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slaughtered them into dance with dragons
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and made it one giant 1,500 pages of
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wednesday i mean to find better if
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honestly I actually like telling the
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stories and chunks because when that
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what like when you think of what's the
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one before it storm of swords is that
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the the big giant one argue that's yeah
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3 the the thing that really frustrates
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me about the RR martin series is just
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the rapid you know interchange of
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characters and being like all right word
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cliffhanger and then we don't get to
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find out what happens to this person for
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500 pages because we're going to go
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visit all the other characters so
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actually having having a feast for crows
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just focus mostly on the Lannisters and
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focus on their story i actually found
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really nice because it was very easy to
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it's like all the characters you hate in
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one convenient location
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well and then they give you so much to
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hate about them so and then yeah if you
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want you to hate what exactly Minnesota
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to its true but now I actually I don't
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feel like it was a it was weird and i
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actually prefer it that way I i gotta
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say you know on sort of a connected
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topic two characters that I hate is that
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the dance with dragons also finally gave
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me another narrator that I actually
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liked or like as a character who I
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actually you know if you're positively
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about I guess subject like might be
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stronger because i'm not sure there is
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more than then like one or two that i
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like but that was refreshing
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there are so many people there are so
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many characters in these books are just
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like you know you really read a chapter
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from the point of view of Cersei and
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you're like man I cannot get behind you
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no matter what you do
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so who do you like I like Sir Barristan
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ah sir Barristan using he's like he's a
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stalwart dude right like he is he's one
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of the few like legitimately honorable
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people in this in this world and so it
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is refreshing to every once in awhile in
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a world that is so populated with
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admittedly fascinating you know
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characters from different shades of gray
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it is nice at least to get one character
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who seems to have a code that they hang
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onto yes but he's challenged right
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even he is conflicted and challenge but
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in a way that like he tries to really
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you know stick to his beliefs as he goes
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through that and anything that makes it
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that keeps him from being boring I I
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just you know it's nice to have a
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character who is who is someone that you
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can actually think I'll man you know I
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hope this I hope this guy survives is
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not good
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there's so many characters words like
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man I don't care if you live or die
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you know I actually really enjoyed ?
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tell in this book which I wasn't
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expecting to he's whining he's a
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complete 24 he's a complete idiot but i
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actually do we follow the fire the
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spoiler and Jason
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[Music]
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yes yes okay if you would be dumb he got
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eaten by a freaking dragon i know but
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what he meant well no you know what i
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find i found his entire character arc
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hilarious and the the fact that he you
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know i'm going to travel across the
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world to get a girl to marry me a girl
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that I have never seen a girl who may or
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may not exist
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I just we're going to just kill off
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random members of our party it was just
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such an entertaining story to follow and
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he was so naive right but I guess part
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of me felt like in a book that's a
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thousand pages if you had cut out that
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entire subplot would it have mattered
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no no no not even remotely that kind of
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stops me in my tracks because they're I
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think there are a lot of really good
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stories and arcs in this book and it
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just a boggles my mind that we we spend
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our time on on people like when Martel
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who you know I like some of the
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characters and some of the like
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situations they drew with him but I got
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to the end of it but really you brought
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this guy in just so you can have them
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put on you know basically burned from
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head to toe so that that it that
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illustrates the destructive power of the
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Dragons right I don't know if you need
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that illustration but that's kind of his
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purposes you know he goes after her
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he thinks he can control these dragons
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and he can't because only one person
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really can but Kenny who can she
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we don't know it just seems a long way
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to go to prove a point in defense of
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Quentin Martel I think this sets up a
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very nice thing for the other Targaryen
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the because i feel like this is a this
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is a crazy lady harder to call of course
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he's going to get murdered but i think
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it's an i think it's an interesting pre
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parallel and I mean it also might as
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well call him Prince red herring and
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Magoffin you know it cuts it kept the
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early Denarius stuff from being flat out
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boring so the first third of this book I
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almost walked away and didn't pick it
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back up and it was very very lucky that
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it got interesting about i don't know
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how many kindle pages in but it was at
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least a third of the way through the
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book where it finally the story finally
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picked up and was finally something that
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I felt like I could dig into that you
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didn't like her story because there's
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too much kind of municipal regulation
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well and that
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municipal municipal wrangling is fine as
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somebody who you know watched all the
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seasons of The West Wing and loved it
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but they made it very dull well I was
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back in forth and back and forth reopen
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the fighting pits now I'm not gonna
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reopen the fighting pits no seriously
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reopen the fighting pits now I'm not
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going to do like it was like like 50
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pages of that don't forget the O but
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what about my roguish secret lover that
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you don't know where he's back however
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but I can't love it but I do love her
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but I can't have a great about the
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fighting pits mention the red but I can
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shoot we mentioned in earlier books I
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mean I don't exist but he's mentioned
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several times
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yes but is he mentioned as like her her
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◼
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lusty love her paramour
[TS]
00:10:31
◼
►
yeah it's got like she's got like a
[TS]
00:10:33
◼
►
crush on him or in the earlier book i
[TS]
00:10:35
◼
►
think and then you know it's not they
[TS]
00:10:36
◼
►
don't actually consummated until this
[TS]
00:10:37
◼
►
book buddies can you know he's clearly
[TS]
00:10:40
◼
►
got like some swagger behind him you
[TS]
00:10:42
◼
►
know he's trying to sort of seducers RZ
[TS]
00:10:44
◼
►
swarthy and swashbuckling and all that
[TS]
00:10:47
◼
►
was going to complain about the the
[TS]
00:10:49
◼
►
Dornish men and also the iron board that
[TS]
00:10:53
◼
►
i felt like one of my big complaints
[TS]
00:10:54
◼
►
about the previous book is that we get
[TS]
00:10:56
◼
►
introduced to all of these people in
[TS]
00:10:58
◼
►
Dorne who who are like this there that
[TS]
00:11:00
◼
►
like the sisters slow sir whatever
[TS]
00:11:03
◼
►
michael dorn he's awesome he's great
[TS]
00:11:07
◼
►
elephant yeah it would've been better
[TS]
00:11:09
◼
►
without that if if the if the door had
[TS]
00:11:12
◼
►
been wharf and Klingons there is no
[TS]
00:11:14
◼
►
order in slaying a dragon that would
[TS]
00:11:17
◼
►
have been great
[TS]
00:11:17
◼
►
yes to the opposition I I feel like we
[TS]
00:11:20
◼
►
we're so we're how many thousands of
[TS]
00:11:22
◼
►
pages into the series now and suddenly
[TS]
00:11:24
◼
►
he's opened these whole sections of
[TS]
00:11:27
◼
►
storyline that our characters we've
[TS]
00:11:29
◼
►
never met before who are just sort of
[TS]
00:11:31
◼
►
like conniving and yet it also feels
[TS]
00:11:35
◼
►
like they're they're doomed to failure
[TS]
00:11:38
◼
►
like when Martel I don't know that
[TS]
00:11:39
◼
►
that's actually one of my frustrations
[TS]
00:11:41
◼
►
about this book and the previous book is
[TS]
00:11:42
◼
►
that they're just big chunks that I feel
[TS]
00:11:45
◼
►
like if i had invested in that story
[TS]
00:11:47
◼
►
line since the beginning of the series I
[TS]
00:11:49
◼
►
might feel different about it but having
[TS]
00:11:51
◼
►
them be added it's a little bit like
[TS]
00:11:53
◼
►
when they added characters to lost and
[TS]
00:11:56
◼
►
everybody's like oh great sure
[TS]
00:11:58
◼
►
four characters with missiles just I
[TS]
00:12:00
◼
►
think they deliberately added I mean the
[TS]
00:12:02
◼
►
door door has mentioned earlier on but i
[TS]
00:12:05
◼
►
think they added that he added them
[TS]
00:12:07
◼
►
specifically as sort of a a
[TS]
00:12:08
◼
►
counterweight because the idea being and
[TS]
00:12:11
◼
►
and I agree it seems sort of back
[TS]
00:12:13
◼
►
filling in some ways to make these guys
[TS]
00:12:14
◼
►
like you know so powerful that that
[TS]
00:12:17
◼
►
their allegiance will actually make a
[TS]
00:12:19
◼
►
difference right in this war mean that's
[TS]
00:12:20
◼
►
the whole point right
[TS]
00:12:21
◼
►
a lot of people are concerned like all
[TS]
00:12:23
◼
►
of the Dornishmen why would some other
[TS]
00:12:24
◼
►
force or whatever like we could be in
[TS]
00:12:26
◼
►
trouble and so they're kind of supposed
[TS]
00:12:29
◼
►
to be a big deal but at the same time it
[TS]
00:12:32
◼
►
does seem kind of late for them to come
[TS]
00:12:35
◼
►
into the picture and make a difference
[TS]
00:12:38
◼
►
once were five books and X thousand
[TS]
00:12:40
◼
►
pages in and during the whole--you know
[TS]
00:12:42
◼
►
open the fighting pits close the
[TS]
00:12:44
◼
►
fighting pits that you need to have some
[TS]
00:12:46
◼
►
kind of anchor to the main storyline of
[TS]
00:12:50
◼
►
you know the Westeros war and stuff so
[TS]
00:12:52
◼
►
you don't get lost in this whole thing
[TS]
00:12:53
◼
►
of ohh I there are people in masks
[TS]
00:12:56
◼
►
killing other people and slavers don't
[TS]
00:12:59
◼
►
like me and all the stuff i see what
[TS]
00:13:00
◼
►
they were trying to do with the within a
[TS]
00:13:03
◼
►
narrow storyline and they're trying to
[TS]
00:13:04
◼
►
say oh yes ruling a city not the easiest
[TS]
00:13:07
◼
►
of work but again I feel like they
[TS]
00:13:09
◼
►
proved that in feast for crows with
[TS]
00:13:12
◼
►
Circe's crazy downfall and I'm not
[TS]
00:13:14
◼
►
trying I'm not sure if they if the
[TS]
00:13:16
◼
►
initial intention was to contrast again
[TS]
00:13:18
◼
►
with your saying Jason about merging the
[TS]
00:13:20
◼
►
books contrasting Circe's crazy crappy
[TS]
00:13:22
◼
►
management of the government vs dean
[TS]
00:13:25
◼
►
heiresses still not very successful but
[TS]
00:13:27
◼
►
maybe more tempered but it's more
[TS]
00:13:31
◼
►
idealistic yeah that's the whole point
[TS]
00:13:33
◼
►
and cheese for us she set up to be
[TS]
00:13:35
◼
►
another one of these characters that
[TS]
00:13:37
◼
►
were supposed to root for i think which
[TS]
00:13:39
◼
►
I it was weird because I felt like
[TS]
00:13:40
◼
►
coming in and i said this i think in the
[TS]
00:13:42
◼
►
earlier podcast where we talked to a
[TS]
00:13:44
◼
►
game of thrones never really found
[TS]
00:13:46
◼
►
myself sympathizing with I mean I guess
[TS]
00:13:47
◼
►
I I there was some sympathy in terms of
[TS]
00:13:49
◼
►
like her situation being kind of crappy
[TS]
00:13:51
◼
►
but is because the whole book is
[TS]
00:13:53
◼
►
predicated on the idea that like her
[TS]
00:13:55
◼
►
father who was insane was kicked out as
[TS]
00:13:57
◼
►
king it's like yeah I guess I don't see
[TS]
00:13:59
◼
►
why you should be in charge then I mean
[TS]
00:14:01
◼
►
and so I think we're supposed to to feel
[TS]
00:14:03
◼
►
more positive about her after she's
[TS]
00:14:05
◼
►
tried really hard to run this city and
[TS]
00:14:08
◼
►
like row and become a real queen
[TS]
00:14:10
◼
►
I'm a real queen yeah I i think i think
[TS]
00:14:14
◼
►
that's where there he was trying to go
[TS]
00:14:16
◼
►
with that but it does get bogged down in
[TS]
00:14:18
◼
►
seemingly in my new show once she gets
[TS]
00:14:21
◼
►
the chance to basically leave the city
[TS]
00:14:25
◼
►
and go back to Westeros which is what
[TS]
00:14:27
◼
►
she wants to do supposedly and she says
[TS]
00:14:29
◼
►
no I can't abandon my people and you're
[TS]
00:14:32
◼
►
like no just you and that would be far
[TS]
00:14:35
◼
►
too interesting i will stay here
[TS]
00:14:37
◼
►
tell me more about the coup the tax code
[TS]
00:14:39
◼
►
yeah man that pig mask
[TS]
00:14:42
◼
►
yeah well I mean plus we do have we do
[TS]
00:14:44
◼
►
have an intersection with the the main
[TS]
00:14:46
◼
►
ish story which is the chi sort of
[TS]
00:14:49
◼
►
crosses paths with Tyrion right like
[TS]
00:14:51
◼
►
unknowingly but he does show up on this
[TS]
00:14:55
◼
►
other content on content continent
[TS]
00:14:58
◼
►
well he's down in the bottom of the
[TS]
00:14:59
◼
►
fighting pits women dragon attack
[TS]
00:15:01
◼
►
happens
[TS]
00:15:02
◼
►
yeah exactly and so they get and you
[TS]
00:15:04
◼
►
can't think these two characters again
[TS]
00:15:06
◼
►
are set on this collision course and
[TS]
00:15:08
◼
►
then as so often happens in this books
[TS]
00:15:10
◼
►
they totally miss each other which was
[TS]
00:15:12
◼
►
kind of annoying who knew that the
[TS]
00:15:13
◼
►
dwarves and the pig and the dog it in
[TS]
00:15:17
◼
►
the Attic oh yeah that the wedding at
[TS]
00:15:19
◼
►
Joffrey's wedding would have done
[TS]
00:15:20
◼
►
babbling yeah vitally important very
[TS]
00:15:23
◼
►
important apparently the piggies
[TS]
00:15:25
◼
►
checkouts coming there is that sad
[TS]
00:15:28
◼
►
moment or the end where we're Tyrion
[TS]
00:15:30
◼
►
tells his his friend the other door fee
[TS]
00:15:32
◼
►
a set basically you're there
[TS]
00:15:35
◼
►
they've been eat there's no way they've
[TS]
00:15:38
◼
►
survived sorry dear
[TS]
00:15:40
◼
►
we have to go where we joined up with
[TS]
00:15:42
◼
►
the mercenaries now poor little tiny
[TS]
00:15:45
◼
►
female dwarf I felt so terribly bad for
[TS]
00:15:49
◼
►
her the entire sheet you know a lot of
[TS]
00:15:51
◼
►
RR Martin's women get screwed around in
[TS]
00:15:54
◼
►
this book but I I mean they do a very
[TS]
00:15:57
◼
►
good job painting her as kind of the
[TS]
00:15:59
◼
►
paragon of innocence and just watching
[TS]
00:16:02
◼
►
it shatter away piece by terribly torn
[TS]
00:16:06
◼
►
off pieces just a little heartbreaking
[TS]
00:16:08
◼
►
little said you know her brother was
[TS]
00:16:11
◼
►
killed horribly and and and all she's
[TS]
00:16:15
◼
►
got is the pig and the dog and
[TS]
00:16:17
◼
►
oh and the Empyrean won't love her no he
[TS]
00:16:20
◼
►
it's true i might be the noblest thing
[TS]
00:16:22
◼
►
that he does though ya know it's true i
[TS]
00:16:24
◼
►
think and and you know I i really like I
[TS]
00:16:27
◼
►
really have always liked period although
[TS]
00:16:29
◼
►
i think he is a good example of a
[TS]
00:16:32
◼
►
character who is it got many many gray
[TS]
00:16:35
◼
►
areas but it's also very likeable and I
[TS]
00:16:38
◼
►
think we talked about that a bit in the
[TS]
00:16:39
◼
►
in the podcast about the TV show to
[TS]
00:16:41
◼
►
which is that you know his flaws are
[TS]
00:16:44
◼
►
that they're all up until you know the
[TS]
00:16:46
◼
►
end of the previous book he's really
[TS]
00:16:47
◼
►
loyal to his family huh yeah right up
[TS]
00:16:51
◼
►
until a certain point basically up into
[TS]
00:16:53
◼
►
a point where he learns that that was
[TS]
00:16:55
◼
►
not reciprocated right right you know
[TS]
00:16:56
◼
►
that he was not treated with the same
[TS]
00:16:58
◼
►
loyalty that he was giving a little long
[TS]
00:17:00
◼
►
so you know shoots dead wood cross but
[TS]
00:17:01
◼
►
ok as you do
[TS]
00:17:03
◼
►
yeah yeah yeah oh so I i have a question
[TS]
00:17:05
◼
►
about about about Tyrion story in this
[TS]
00:17:08
◼
►
book and it's where the horse go oh no
[TS]
00:17:11
◼
►
wait thats the question he asks 'i I was
[TS]
00:17:14
◼
►
a little disappointed that his story was
[TS]
00:17:16
◼
►
this goes back to a point i think red
[TS]
00:17:18
◼
►
made which is you know you wait so long
[TS]
00:17:20
◼
►
to get back to that character and I feel
[TS]
00:17:22
◼
►
as if george RR martin is writing seven
[TS]
00:17:24
◼
►
novels or eight novels about all the
[TS]
00:17:26
◼
►
characters in these books but you only
[TS]
00:17:28
◼
►
get up you know one seventh of the novel
[TS]
00:17:31
◼
►
each time interleaved with all the other
[TS]
00:17:34
◼
►
novels I don't know so i was a little
[TS]
00:17:36
◼
►
disappointed in interior story arc where
[TS]
00:17:38
◼
►
he's spent a lot of time traveling right
[TS]
00:17:40
◼
►
now not really doing anything brushes
[TS]
00:17:44
◼
►
with gray scale w/e i mean but the gray
[TS]
00:17:47
◼
►
scales are far more interesting victim
[TS]
00:17:48
◼
►
elsewhere write and so sometimes i think
[TS]
00:17:51
◼
►
i think the question for me is Tyrion
[TS]
00:17:52
◼
►
like if you look at the Arkin about what
[TS]
00:17:54
◼
►
he did in this book right
[TS]
00:17:56
◼
►
he traveled around a lot he introduced
[TS]
00:17:59
◼
►
us to a lot of other characters but
[TS]
00:18:01
◼
►
there's very little action that he
[TS]
00:18:03
◼
►
undertakes right and that's that's this
[TS]
00:18:06
◼
►
point after especially having such a
[TS]
00:18:08
◼
►
major action in the last book right is
[TS]
00:18:11
◼
►
you know if we have that culminating
[TS]
00:18:14
◼
►
point at the end of feast for crows and
[TS]
00:18:15
◼
►
and you know dance of dragons is largely
[TS]
00:18:18
◼
►
he's largely introspective right he
[TS]
00:18:20
◼
►
spends a lot of his time thinking about
[TS]
00:18:21
◼
►
things and not actually doing much again
[TS]
00:18:25
◼
►
i feel this is one of our Martin
[TS]
00:18:27
◼
►
sweetnesses is that he tries i mean i
[TS]
00:18:30
◼
►
stand that you need to have character
[TS]
00:18:32
◼
►
arcs in a in a long series and and
[TS]
00:18:35
◼
►
having the introspective moments and
[TS]
00:18:36
◼
►
having Denarius showing that she can
[TS]
00:18:39
◼
►
rule things and having Circe's fall from
[TS]
00:18:41
◼
►
Greece you know these are all important
[TS]
00:18:43
◼
►
things but I don't necessarily know if
[TS]
00:18:45
◼
►
keen can craft them properly
[TS]
00:18:48
◼
►
like I feel like we could have very
[TS]
00:18:51
◼
►
easily figured out that yes curious
[TS]
00:18:53
◼
►
Tyrion was feeling guilty and was
[TS]
00:18:55
◼
►
feeling problems and and wants nothing
[TS]
00:18:57
◼
►
more than to find Tasha but she has been
[TS]
00:19:00
◼
►
yesterday you know embark on this side
[TS]
00:19:03
◼
►
journey is as part of you know his
[TS]
00:19:04
◼
►
penance for fleeing fleeing west coast
[TS]
00:19:08
◼
►
but I feel like that could have been
[TS]
00:19:09
◼
►
wrapped up by a different writer and
[TS]
00:19:11
◼
►
like two chapters even I mean Tyrion
[TS]
00:19:13
◼
►
gets what six or seven chapters in this
[TS]
00:19:16
◼
►
beginning middle end what beginning
[TS]
00:19:18
◼
►
middle end it's not that there's that
[TS]
00:19:20
◼
►
there's a very definite structure that
[TS]
00:19:21
◼
►
you can do here but it feels like a lot
[TS]
00:19:23
◼
►
of middle here
[TS]
00:19:24
◼
►
yes very much does well it'sit's all
[TS]
00:19:26
◼
►
middle for Tyrion in this book it's all
[TS]
00:19:28
◼
►
metal for like this whole book is all
[TS]
00:19:30
◼
►
middle really yeah a lot of it is i mean
[TS]
00:19:32
◼
►
granted there are I you know having
[TS]
00:19:35
◼
►
having been critical I think there are
[TS]
00:19:36
◼
►
things i really enjoyed um I no no no he
[TS]
00:19:40
◼
►
that's right i didn't enjoy anything
[TS]
00:19:41
◼
►
about this book no I I mean all right
[TS]
00:19:45
◼
►
well okay hardest john-john storyline
[TS]
00:19:48
◼
►
uh-oh jon jon is one of the other most
[TS]
00:19:50
◼
►
of the characters see the problem with
[TS]
00:19:51
◼
►
John storyline as much as you know I
[TS]
00:19:54
◼
►
guess maybe my point of view is tempered
[TS]
00:19:55
◼
►
by looking back and thinking about where
[TS]
00:19:57
◼
►
that story line ends you will be
[TS]
00:20:01
◼
►
betrayed oh yeah whatever whatever your
[TS]
00:20:04
◼
►
sister will appear otherwise she's not
[TS]
00:20:06
◼
►
my sister really well it's similar but
[TS]
00:20:09
◼
►
if you will be betrayed you don't had
[TS]
00:20:12
◼
►
well I mean I thought I really actually
[TS]
00:20:15
◼
►
kind of in you know I liked his dilemma
[TS]
00:20:17
◼
►
right with trying to figure out like all
[TS]
00:20:20
◼
►
should I you know bring the wild things
[TS]
00:20:21
◼
►
over he's like all right I'm gonna do
[TS]
00:20:22
◼
►
this and like everybody else was like
[TS]
00:20:25
◼
►
you're nuts
[TS]
00:20:26
◼
►
Graham it was any but it was just its
[TS]
00:20:30
◼
►
decision that from you know from John's
[TS]
00:20:31
◼
►
perspective been seeing it through
[TS]
00:20:32
◼
►
John's perspective like this is actually
[TS]
00:20:34
◼
►
kind of makes sense right
[TS]
00:20:36
◼
►
this this seems like a you know I get an
[TS]
00:20:37
◼
►
unpopular decision but one that needs to
[TS]
00:20:39
◼
►
be made and there is a good argument
[TS]
00:20:41
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that like these least these people are
[TS]
00:20:44
◼
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even if they don't always you know see
[TS]
00:20:45
◼
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eye-to-eye with us they're not creepy
[TS]
00:20:47
◼
►
dead things you know stalking us but at
[TS]
00:20:51
◼
►
the same time yet there is a lot of
[TS]
00:20:52
◼
►
there's a lot of wrangling there's a lot
[TS]
00:20:55
◼
►
of back-and-forth with him I think that
[TS]
00:20:56
◼
►
storyline mirrors Denarius is storyline
[TS]
00:20:59
◼
►
as well right because they're both
[TS]
00:21:00
◼
►
struggling Colin struggling with our and
[TS]
00:21:03
◼
►
you know doing kind of administrative
[TS]
00:21:04
◼
►
things and getting coming to grips with
[TS]
00:21:06
◼
►
decisions and then getting our trade and
[TS]
00:21:10
◼
►
everyone's like oh what's going on are
[TS]
00:21:12
◼
►
always so inevitably that you know for
[TS]
00:21:13
◼
►
books down the road they can get married
[TS]
00:21:15
◼
►
right and because of Westeros killer
[TS]
00:21:17
◼
►
kill everybody else engine light right
[TS]
00:21:20
◼
►
because he's the actual air of the
[TS]
00:21:22
◼
►
Targaryen and his mother is Ned sister
[TS]
00:21:25
◼
►
and his father is the Prince Targaryen
[TS]
00:21:29
◼
►
who's who starts off the the whole war
[TS]
00:21:32
◼
►
that leads to the unit opposing the king
[TS]
00:21:35
◼
►
and everything right are we still going
[TS]
00:21:37
◼
►
on sat theory I I am I agree
[TS]
00:21:40
◼
►
what's up that's plausible theory I
[TS]
00:21:41
◼
►
don't we get we get we get new
[TS]
00:21:44
◼
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information about John's mother though
[TS]
00:21:46
◼
►
in this book don't we
[TS]
00:21:48
◼
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I feel like there's that there's that
[TS]
00:21:49
◼
►
entire story about John's mother is
[TS]
00:21:52
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►
there i don't think so there's all i
[TS]
00:21:55
◼
►
remember when i think of John's mother
[TS]
00:21:57
◼
►
all I remember is the first episode of
[TS]
00:21:59
◼
►
the TV show which shall be like don't
[TS]
00:22:01
◼
►
talk about your mother when I come back
[TS]
00:22:04
◼
►
yeah yeah no I said I think about what
[TS]
00:22:07
◼
►
jokes nose and because he's he's stabbed
[TS]
00:22:10
◼
►
me and the failure and when I always
[TS]
00:22:13
◼
►
friends so it was stabbed in the back by
[TS]
00:22:14
◼
►
all his resume so here's what to do with
[TS]
00:22:17
◼
►
it is my problem with it is the same
[TS]
00:22:19
◼
►
problem i had with the the searcy
[TS]
00:22:21
◼
►
cliffhanger in the last book which is in
[TS]
00:22:23
◼
►
Game of Thrones they chopped off his
[TS]
00:22:26
◼
►
head and he's dead and that's and that's
[TS]
00:22:28
◼
►
you know towards the end of the book and
[TS]
00:22:29
◼
►
you like how they're going to get out of
[TS]
00:22:30
◼
►
this one oh geez he's dead but but the
[TS]
00:22:33
◼
►
seriously thing and especially with John
[TS]
00:22:36
◼
►
I feel like there's so much run up to it
[TS]
00:22:38
◼
►
and it's like it's a cliffhanger and
[TS]
00:22:39
◼
►
there's no way I mean either he's not
[TS]
00:22:41
◼
►
dead or he's going to transfer his
[TS]
00:22:43
◼
►
spirit into some other person or
[TS]
00:22:45
◼
►
whatever but so it feels so artificial
[TS]
00:22:49
◼
►
that it leads to this point and it feels
[TS]
00:22:51
◼
►
so false that were being given a
[TS]
00:22:52
◼
►
cliffhanger that we know is not going to
[TS]
00:22:55
◼
►
be paid off whereas with Ned it
[TS]
00:22:57
◼
►
it's very clear that he was dead and not
[TS]
00:22:58
◼
►
coming back so I felt like that was
[TS]
00:23:01
◼
►
really unnecessary that if that's what
[TS]
00:23:03
◼
►
you're building up to is this is the
[TS]
00:23:05
◼
►
shocking moment that you're not going to
[TS]
00:23:07
◼
►
really be able to pay off
[TS]
00:23:09
◼
►
you know I i would really love i was
[TS]
00:23:11
◼
►
thinking just think about this what
[TS]
00:23:12
◼
►
you're saying is that i really would
[TS]
00:23:13
◼
►
love this to be end up being the story
[TS]
00:23:15
◼
►
of all the middlemen who you know keep
[TS]
00:23:18
◼
►
everything running and like they're
[TS]
00:23:19
◼
►
they're quite unsung victories I'm
[TS]
00:23:21
◼
►
thinking again about one of my other
[TS]
00:23:23
◼
►
favorite characters Davos Seaworth try
[TS]
00:23:25
◼
►
to get any night this book i love who
[TS]
00:23:27
◼
►
was killed off off-screen in the
[TS]
00:23:29
◼
►
previous book and only now do we
[TS]
00:23:31
◼
►
discover he wasn't killed it's all part
[TS]
00:23:33
◼
►
of a plan how you knew he wasn't killed
[TS]
00:23:35
◼
►
on the last yeah but what I was like no
[TS]
00:23:38
◼
►
but there's there's every possibility
[TS]
00:23:39
◼
►
even realize what we've seen and liked
[TS]
00:23:41
◼
►
it could happen
[TS]
00:23:42
◼
►
he's not that central of a character
[TS]
00:23:44
◼
►
he's a very likeable character but he's
[TS]
00:23:45
◼
►
not like a central character um and and
[TS]
00:23:49
◼
►
i don't know i like the idea of all the
[TS]
00:23:50
◼
►
middlemen being like yeah hey we're not
[TS]
00:23:52
◼
►
the big guys in decision-making you know
[TS]
00:23:54
◼
►
big guys and power making all the
[TS]
00:23:55
◼
►
decisions we just kind of slipped from
[TS]
00:23:56
◼
►
place to place but in the end you know
[TS]
00:23:58
◼
►
we're probably the most important people
[TS]
00:24:00
◼
►
here and i also thought I don't know
[TS]
00:24:03
◼
►
what do you guys think I want to ask you
[TS]
00:24:05
◼
►
what did you think of the beyond
[TS]
00:24:07
◼
►
storyline haha oh my god
[TS]
00:24:10
◼
►
creepy i never thought i would feel any
[TS]
00:24:13
◼
►
sort of pity for beyond great joy but
[TS]
00:24:18
◼
►
boy did I pity at pool yeah after that
[TS]
00:24:24
◼
►
it was interesting I mean it was brutal
[TS]
00:24:26
◼
►
and and disturbing this you know that
[TS]
00:24:30
◼
►
was a great story with you if you take
[TS]
00:24:31
◼
►
it was it was it was fascinating via the
[TS]
00:24:34
◼
►
best part of the book we talk about
[TS]
00:24:35
◼
►
middles beyond healing story came to an
[TS]
00:24:39
◼
►
end right he betrayed he betrayed the
[TS]
00:24:42
◼
►
Starks and and all that and history came
[TS]
00:24:45
◼
►
to an end and and then with this story
[TS]
00:24:47
◼
►
we get a complete story arc from feeling
[TS]
00:24:50
◼
►
where he starts at the lowest of the low
[TS]
00:24:52
◼
►
points and by the end is is calling
[TS]
00:24:57
◼
►
himself by his own name again and has
[TS]
00:25:00
◼
►
taken a take the women and basically
[TS]
00:25:02
◼
►
jumped jumped out of the castle to run
[TS]
00:25:05
◼
►
away to to the King means tried he tried
[TS]
00:25:08
◼
►
to atone right he's actually trying to
[TS]
00:25:10
◼
►
redeem him
[TS]
00:25:10
◼
►
so yeah yeah after he's and he's broken
[TS]
00:25:13
◼
►
and battered and that and that that's an
[TS]
00:25:14
◼
►
arterial knocked out yeah like that
[TS]
00:25:16
◼
►
that's he starts in one place and ends
[TS]
00:25:19
◼
►
up in another yeah thats oh so in this
[TS]
00:25:21
◼
►
book full of medals i really loved that
[TS]
00:25:24
◼
►
the feelings story was an actual story
[TS]
00:25:28
◼
►
with progression and and consequences
[TS]
00:25:30
◼
►
and yeah I i think yeah maybe that was
[TS]
00:25:32
◼
►
the best part of the book
[TS]
00:25:35
◼
►
trying to think of any others yeah we
[TS]
00:25:36
◼
►
got a couple chapters here and there for
[TS]
00:25:38
◼
►
some people who were in feast for crows
[TS]
00:25:39
◼
►
we got a little we get like one Jamie
[TS]
00:25:41
◼
►
chapter maybe to Jamie all that happens
[TS]
00:25:44
◼
►
with Jamie he goes to negotiate with me
[TS]
00:25:46
◼
►
with river i well know we thought that
[TS]
00:25:49
◼
►
we thought that uh that the debris and
[TS]
00:25:51
◼
►
was was baby dead which again is
[TS]
00:25:54
◼
►
bullshit hanger
[TS]
00:25:55
◼
►
yeah there's no way that but she shows
[TS]
00:25:57
◼
►
up at the end this question I mean she
[TS]
00:25:59
◼
►
might be dead and brought back because
[TS]
00:26:01
◼
►
that's what you happening but we did
[TS]
00:26:03
◼
►
they ever resolved i can honestly can't
[TS]
00:26:06
◼
►
remember because at the end of at the
[TS]
00:26:08
◼
►
end of book 3 there's a creek
[TS]
00:26:09
◼
►
cliffhanger where it turns out you know
[TS]
00:26:11
◼
►
cabins alive right yeah well she's the
[TS]
00:26:13
◼
►
great she's like the Grey Lady Rainicorn
[TS]
00:26:15
◼
►
she's stealing hard and she's gotten
[TS]
00:26:17
◼
►
right she's gotten especially
[TS]
00:26:19
◼
►
resurrected and so she appears and yeah
[TS]
00:26:24
◼
►
so that that's just what we don't see
[TS]
00:26:25
◼
►
her appear again after that right now
[TS]
00:26:27
◼
►
yeah yeah we do she she appears your
[TS]
00:26:29
◼
►
cruise i can't speak right or doesn't
[TS]
00:26:31
◼
►
speak clearly and and that's uh that's
[TS]
00:26:34
◼
►
obviously where because we see that with
[TS]
00:26:36
◼
►
Breanna it's with the the midst of the
[TS]
00:26:39
◼
►
Brotherhood yeah the guy who turned out
[TS]
00:26:42
◼
►
log beric Dondarrion and his rights
[TS]
00:26:44
◼
►
exactly marrying men
[TS]
00:26:45
◼
►
exactly so so I'm thoresen all those
[TS]
00:26:49
◼
►
right guys right so that's where Jamie's
[TS]
00:26:52
◼
►
going just like Jane let go
[TS]
00:26:54
◼
►
going in the end brands related and all
[TS]
00:26:56
◼
►
that but that that's clearly just you
[TS]
00:27:00
◼
►
know bridge by chapter to keep it alive
[TS]
00:27:02
◼
►
and not dealing with it right now
[TS]
00:27:04
◼
►
whereas some of these other storylines
[TS]
00:27:06
◼
►
like I was going to bring up brand who
[TS]
00:27:09
◼
►
kind of vanished
[TS]
00:27:10
◼
►
yeah is back and he didn't he that's a
[TS]
00:27:13
◼
►
bizarre story because he's like LED he
[TS]
00:27:16
◼
►
and then some people from the lowlands
[TS]
00:27:18
◼
►
are led into the far north by a guy who
[TS]
00:27:21
◼
►
is apparently a essentially a a dead guy
[TS]
00:27:23
◼
►
or a white Walker or whatever he is he's
[TS]
00:27:25
◼
►
a he said he's an animated corpse but
[TS]
00:27:28
◼
►
residents functional yeah and we'll just
[TS]
00:27:31
◼
►
as a ranger and arguably I mean you know
[TS]
00:27:34
◼
►
my first thought was that it's his uncle
[TS]
00:27:36
◼
►
yeah yeah benjamin has been
[TS]
00:27:38
◼
►
disappearances what book one yahoo news
[TS]
00:27:40
◼
►
be giving up my first book yeah yeah
[TS]
00:27:42
◼
►
very beginning so um that's weird and
[TS]
00:27:44
◼
►
then and there but that's not the weird
[TS]
00:27:46
◼
►
part because then there's a really
[TS]
00:27:48
◼
►
well scene where there's like the
[TS]
00:27:49
◼
►
hillside and it's covered in snow and
[TS]
00:27:51
◼
►
they try to go up it turns out there
[TS]
00:27:52
◼
►
like dead bodies everywhere in the snow
[TS]
00:27:54
◼
►
and they tried to kill them and they go
[TS]
00:27:55
◼
►
into the cave and then Brandon his
[TS]
00:27:59
◼
►
friends get to meet with the tree people
[TS]
00:28:00
◼
►
who are the children the children which
[TS]
00:28:03
◼
►
is that that's that was weird stuff that
[TS]
00:28:06
◼
►
was very creepy and then the a/c the
[TS]
00:28:09
◼
►
past two trees yet if they can kind of
[TS]
00:28:12
◼
►
interact but they can't really be CRO
[TS]
00:28:14
◼
►
and animal residents to write because he
[TS]
00:28:16
◼
►
he interacts with with a peon about this
[TS]
00:28:20
◼
►
point in the godswood he actually sees
[TS]
00:28:22
◼
►
that my thing is it is it with with
[TS]
00:28:25
◼
►
Cersei to I mean there there are several
[TS]
00:28:27
◼
►
points right right yeah our by trees and
[TS]
00:28:29
◼
►
it's like it is that as if the tree is
[TS]
00:28:31
◼
►
looking at me it's like that's because
[TS]
00:28:33
◼
►
it is great the tree just didn't agree
[TS]
00:28:37
◼
►
you know brands whole storyline here
[TS]
00:28:39
◼
►
actually reminds me of something that
[TS]
00:28:40
◼
►
happens and wise man's fear which I'll
[TS]
00:28:42
◼
►
save for the wine Spencer section of the
[TS]
00:28:44
◼
►
podcast but it's their parallels the
[TS]
00:28:47
◼
►
trees are the security cameras
[TS]
00:28:49
◼
►
yeah Westeros well um and then we have a
[TS]
00:28:53
◼
►
couple chapters from Astra Greyjoy's the
[TS]
00:28:57
◼
►
Greyjoy's in general career choice i
[TS]
00:28:59
◼
►
don't understand she's kind of an
[TS]
00:29:01
◼
►
interesting character I like her as a
[TS]
00:29:03
◼
►
character i think this book to
[TS]
00:29:04
◼
►
unfortunately didn't give her a Watson
[TS]
00:29:05
◼
►
yeah I liked her as a character before
[TS]
00:29:08
◼
►
she got her own point of view I liked
[TS]
00:29:10
◼
►
her when we initially met her through so
[TS]
00:29:14
◼
►
yeah I had a new she was happy when
[TS]
00:29:17
◼
►
she's well because it was that
[TS]
00:29:18
◼
►
uninteresting things in the last book
[TS]
00:29:19
◼
►
where it's where there's going to be a
[TS]
00:29:21
◼
►
king smooth and we're gonna pick a guy
[TS]
00:29:22
◼
►
and she says I'll be the king and those
[TS]
00:29:25
◼
►
they know you're a girl you can't be the
[TS]
00:29:27
◼
►
king and why you are get you and then
[TS]
00:29:29
◼
►
they send her off and you mean yeah so I
[TS]
00:29:32
◼
►
i took and we have a while to remember
[TS]
00:29:34
◼
►
who she was because that wasn't that
[TS]
00:29:37
◼
►
interesting the Ironborn of the Dornish
[TS]
00:29:38
◼
►
do not interest me only Michael Dore the
[TS]
00:29:41
◼
►
Dornish makes sense to me because they
[TS]
00:29:43
◼
►
at least have some power and they seem
[TS]
00:29:45
◼
►
to be interweaved with the Targaryen xin
[TS]
00:29:48
◼
►
a to a great extent i mean right but
[TS]
00:29:50
◼
►
yeah I have no idea why the Ironborn in
[TS]
00:29:53
◼
►
this book like they're what one or two
[TS]
00:29:55
◼
►
chapters with Victorian or Victarion or
[TS]
00:29:57
◼
►
whatever
[TS]
00:29:58
◼
►
yeah all of the other great joys I have
[TS]
00:30:00
◼
►
no idea is trying to do the same thing
[TS]
00:30:02
◼
►
as Martel right yes
[TS]
00:30:04
◼
►
everybody's trying to go Mary Mary
[TS]
00:30:06
◼
►
Dennis we could understand that LOL and
[TS]
00:30:09
◼
►
the missing Targaryen yeah gone
[TS]
00:30:12
◼
►
we got a couple of chapters of area who
[TS]
00:30:14
◼
►
I do well I love that remains one of my
[TS]
00:30:17
◼
►
favorite character that again we had
[TS]
00:30:18
◼
►
that kind of false cliff later was like
[TS]
00:30:20
◼
►
ooh she's blind
[TS]
00:30:22
◼
►
oh but it's just temporary she's not
[TS]
00:30:24
◼
►
yeah should get better
[TS]
00:30:27
◼
►
I mean she's joined she's trying to join
[TS]
00:30:29
◼
►
an organization that's all about false
[TS]
00:30:31
◼
►
facing I mean you kind of knew from the
[TS]
00:30:33
◼
►
beginning you know I just I i have no
[TS]
00:30:36
◼
►
idea why the Greyjoy's with the
[TS]
00:30:38
◼
►
exception
[TS]
00:30:40
◼
►
you know with one exception i have no
[TS]
00:30:41
◼
►
idea why the Greyjoy's are have been in
[TS]
00:30:43
◼
►
this series from the start because
[TS]
00:30:45
◼
►
everything i read is just kind of like
[TS]
00:30:47
◼
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okay what we already have X people
[TS]
00:30:49
◼
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competing for the throne it would be
[TS]
00:30:51
◼
►
real it would really suck if after you
[TS]
00:30:53
◼
►
know 8,000 pages it turned out that the
[TS]
00:30:55
◼
►
only reason we have to we have to read
[TS]
00:30:56
◼
►
about the door
[TS]
00:30:58
◼
►
nish people let me and the Greyjoy's is
[TS]
00:31:00
◼
►
because in the end you know they're
[TS]
00:31:03
◼
►
needed for some plot complication and
[TS]
00:31:05
◼
►
therefore we've spent a thousand pages
[TS]
00:31:08
◼
►
on them because getting into something
[TS]
00:31:09
◼
►
that was very soon and of arcane Oh
[TS]
00:31:11
◼
►
Westeros law that says when there are
[TS]
00:31:14
◼
►
two or three kids competing for the
[TS]
00:31:16
◼
►
undisputed that the ceremony can do that
[TS]
00:31:19
◼
►
right on Tuesday that's that's and
[TS]
00:31:21
◼
►
Daenerys from having like learned all
[TS]
00:31:22
◼
►
her like lawyerly stuff running that
[TS]
00:31:24
◼
►
city with you call over to a loophole
[TS]
00:31:26
◼
►
whatever Honor I have Jackie it all
[TS]
00:31:28
◼
►
turns into a courtroom or on our western
[TS]
00:31:30
◼
►
sea god pretty much know what the aria
[TS]
00:31:33
◼
►
stuff is good because that's a great
[TS]
00:31:34
◼
►
character and again it there's not
[TS]
00:31:37
◼
►
really much of an arc there but there's
[TS]
00:31:39
◼
►
a little bit i mean she's learning she
[TS]
00:31:41
◼
►
learns she learns how to follow the guy
[TS]
00:31:43
◼
►
and and ascend assassinate him basically
[TS]
00:31:46
◼
►
so that she she has some progression in
[TS]
00:31:48
◼
►
her character
[TS]
00:31:49
◼
►
it's a little frustrating because her
[TS]
00:31:50
◼
►
progression is you will become a
[TS]
00:31:52
◼
►
faceless assassin but it's there's no
[TS]
00:31:54
◼
►
doubt that that's important because we
[TS]
00:31:56
◼
►
had the whole thing in the last book
[TS]
00:31:57
◼
►
where you know where they're learning
[TS]
00:31:59
◼
►
the wherewithal the Meister's train and
[TS]
00:32:01
◼
►
and and there's the guy who takes the
[TS]
00:32:04
◼
►
form of the other guy who gets killed in
[TS]
00:32:06
◼
►
the prologue and all that's it it's
[TS]
00:32:08
◼
►
clear that that's really important for
[TS]
00:32:10
◼
►
later but
[TS]
00:32:12
◼
►
you know again it's just that's an
[TS]
00:32:13
◼
►
interesting point well now that you
[TS]
00:32:15
◼
►
brought that up in the prologue samples
[TS]
00:32:16
◼
►
right every book has a prologue and
[TS]
00:32:18
◼
►
epilogue and they're always pretty much
[TS]
00:32:19
◼
►
like one-offs right one-off narrators
[TS]
00:32:21
◼
►
and dance of dragons is no different at
[TS]
00:32:24
◼
►
the beginning we had that the wildling
[TS]
00:32:26
◼
►
skin-changer right is there several the
[TS]
00:32:30
◼
►
wolves and and tries to eat people and
[TS]
00:32:33
◼
►
crazy stuff and then doesn't really
[TS]
00:32:35
◼
►
become he's mentioned i believe a couple
[TS]
00:32:37
◼
►
times by the wild things but not seen
[TS]
00:32:39
◼
►
again right and then at the end we have
[TS]
00:32:43
◼
►
sir Kevin who is it that is actually
[TS]
00:32:47
◼
►
more of an interesting situation because
[TS]
00:32:49
◼
►
we also get the surprise return of
[TS]
00:32:51
◼
►
another character who is totally not in
[TS]
00:32:53
◼
►
this book
[TS]
00:32:53
◼
►
varus right we sort of squirrels himself
[TS]
00:32:56
◼
►
way I kind of like the app me again
[TS]
00:32:58
◼
►
he saved all the good stuff in the end
[TS]
00:33:00
◼
►
it's like I wanted to read the end of
[TS]
00:33:01
◼
►
the book and like that's all the only
[TS]
00:33:02
◼
►
part I cared about but you know we have
[TS]
00:33:04
◼
►
basically the death of a couple major
[TS]
00:33:05
◼
►
character is there and kill Vera skills
[TS]
00:33:08
◼
►
pycelle and Kevin Lannister right right
[TS]
00:33:11
◼
►
because it's all part of the plot to
[TS]
00:33:13
◼
►
which plot C apart
[TS]
00:33:16
◼
►
fuck somebody claimed his own baby is
[TS]
00:33:18
◼
►
playing his own game to write like
[TS]
00:33:20
◼
►
clearly just like he's got he's got an
[TS]
00:33:22
◼
►
agenda right I was like to him I think
[TS]
00:33:25
◼
►
he's you know he's like totally
[TS]
00:33:27
◼
►
untrustworthy I think he's a I think
[TS]
00:33:28
◼
►
he's a great character he's a
[TS]
00:33:30
◼
►
fascinating yeah it's nice to see him
[TS]
00:33:33
◼
►
so with all of this all of the said you
[TS]
00:33:38
◼
►
know and there is so much as it is a
[TS]
00:33:40
◼
►
thousand pages long
[TS]
00:33:42
◼
►
you know I want to ask about this book
[TS]
00:33:45
◼
►
in the context of the series because
[TS]
00:33:46
◼
►
there's really only there's no other way
[TS]
00:33:48
◼
►
to enjoy it or talk about it or anything
[TS]
00:33:51
◼
►
did you guys get the sense that because
[TS]
00:33:56
◼
►
again I i alluded to this at the
[TS]
00:33:57
◼
►
beginning he says oh it's a second book
[TS]
00:33:59
◼
►
series so two more books will all be
[TS]
00:34:01
◼
►
wrapped up i read this book thinking at
[TS]
00:34:04
◼
►
the pace that he's going
[TS]
00:34:06
◼
►
this will take 10 more books because I
[TS]
00:34:08
◼
►
felt to me like it up a little
[TS]
00:34:09
◼
►
the story the fact that well now i'm
[TS]
00:34:13
◼
►
concerned that if if he thinks he's got
[TS]
00:34:15
◼
►
two books to tell the rest of the story
[TS]
00:34:16
◼
►
i'm going to feel like we invested it
[TS]
00:34:19
◼
►
you know 8,000 pages to get to a
[TS]
00:34:21
◼
►
resolution that takes a hundred because
[TS]
00:34:23
◼
►
because we're all your aren't you
[TS]
00:34:25
◼
►
you're gonna feel a little bit that like
[TS]
00:34:27
◼
►
there's a point where it's just like we
[TS]
00:34:29
◼
►
have to skip forward like oh yeah two
[TS]
00:34:31
◼
►
years later
[TS]
00:34:32
◼
►
yeah it just it seems like the pacing is
[TS]
00:34:34
◼
►
all off if if this is booked five of
[TS]
00:34:37
◼
►
seven because we don't have a you know
[TS]
00:34:40
◼
►
watching that watching the TV show with
[TS]
00:34:43
◼
►
my wife she's got these expectations
[TS]
00:34:45
◼
►
about how to eros is gonna come to
[TS]
00:34:47
◼
►
westeros a-- i'm sitting in she's never
[TS]
00:34:50
◼
►
gonna come to westeros she's still not
[TS]
00:34:52
◼
►
in Westeros she may never get to
[TS]
00:34:53
◼
►
Westeros it's taken forever
[TS]
00:34:55
◼
►
it's like you know if he can he can
[TS]
00:34:58
◼
►
spend book six kind of bringing everyone
[TS]
00:35:00
◼
►
together and then book 7 which could be
[TS]
00:35:02
◼
►
like you know 4,000 pages finishing the
[TS]
00:35:05
◼
►
whole thing and tying itself is just a
[TS]
00:35:07
◼
►
big party except heart one book 7 part 2
[TS]
00:35:10
◼
►
and exactly like the Harry Potter movies
[TS]
00:35:13
◼
►
yeah exactly yeah so I don't I think he
[TS]
00:35:15
◼
►
could do it I don't know if he is
[TS]
00:35:17
◼
►
disciplined enough to do it because he
[TS]
00:35:20
◼
►
enjoys writing this stuff that he thinks
[TS]
00:35:22
◼
►
about all this cool stuff he's like oh
[TS]
00:35:23
◼
►
this is so cool i need to write about
[TS]
00:35:25
◼
►
you know two characters that I've never
[TS]
00:35:27
◼
►
heard of but not have this complicated
[TS]
00:35:29
◼
►
roster reeling exactly and that's all
[TS]
00:35:32
◼
►
any it's like he gives he's still
[TS]
00:35:34
◼
►
unfolding right success without worries
[TS]
00:35:36
◼
►
about this world is still like
[TS]
00:35:38
◼
►
propagating in some ways and yet we're
[TS]
00:35:40
◼
►
at the same time we're all going
[TS]
00:35:42
◼
►
can you blow rein it in a little bit and
[TS]
00:35:44
◼
►
sort of focus
[TS]
00:35:46
◼
►
let's make a circle at least with the
[TS]
00:35:47
◼
►
brand stuff I felt like brand who has
[TS]
00:35:49
◼
►
been on a path where they've been
[TS]
00:35:51
◼
►
taunting us
[TS]
00:35:52
◼
►
he's been saying oh well together the
[TS]
00:35:53
◼
►
crow the three-eyed crow all that I feel
[TS]
00:35:55
◼
►
like we actually got somewhere with that
[TS]
00:35:57
◼
►
now we're which was good that was that
[TS]
00:36:00
◼
►
felt like forward motion to me but it
[TS]
00:36:02
◼
►
just it see it's so strange that and he
[TS]
00:36:05
◼
►
said you know he's this is we're seeing
[TS]
00:36:07
◼
►
building as as he goes and he releases
[TS]
00:36:09
◼
►
the installments but that's just a bad
[TS]
00:36:11
◼
►
feeling about this that there is no he's
[TS]
00:36:14
◼
►
gonna it's not two books worth of story
[TS]
00:36:17
◼
►
that are left user there's a great world
[TS]
00:36:19
◼
►
but the plot has started to take a
[TS]
00:36:21
◼
►
backseat to the world building but some
[TS]
00:36:24
◼
►
of the best characters regular catlin to
[TS]
00:36:26
◼
►
your point to kill catlin it's shocking
[TS]
00:36:27
◼
►
and then he makes the point of saying
[TS]
00:36:29
◼
►
haha but she's not dead she's been
[TS]
00:36:31
◼
►
resurrected in some way and then we
[TS]
00:36:33
◼
►
essentially two books go by where she's
[TS]
00:36:35
◼
►
in one chapter you know right and so
[TS]
00:36:38
◼
►
what was more
[TS]
00:36:39
◼
►
what was the point just lurking in the
[TS]
00:36:41
◼
►
background all will become clear
[TS]
00:36:43
◼
►
well you'll find out three bucks from
[TS]
00:36:46
◼
►
yeah you've got these kids because of
[TS]
00:36:48
◼
►
key characters and Jamie and this jamie
[TS]
00:36:49
◼
►
said but they can't all be important at
[TS]
00:36:51
◼
►
the end right like that yes yes they
[TS]
00:36:53
◼
►
could you never know Jaime and Brienne
[TS]
00:36:54
◼
►
are are really interesting important
[TS]
00:36:56
◼
►
characters they're basically not in this
[TS]
00:36:58
◼
►
either and then there's something I just
[TS]
00:37:00
◼
►
feel some frustration that like you've
[TS]
00:37:01
◼
►
got these really good characters we're
[TS]
00:37:02
◼
►
basically not seeing them and instead
[TS]
00:37:04
◼
►
you're introducing me to these new
[TS]
00:37:07
◼
►
characters like these Ironborn
[TS]
00:37:09
◼
►
characters and the Dornish characters
[TS]
00:37:10
◼
►
were conspiring and and they're just not
[TS]
00:37:12
◼
►
that interesting and so that that's a
[TS]
00:37:14
◼
►
frustration and you know I appreciate
[TS]
00:37:16
◼
►
authors trying to prostrate the readers
[TS]
00:37:18
◼
►
a little bit in order to tell a good
[TS]
00:37:19
◼
►
story but when you move you know main
[TS]
00:37:21
◼
►
characters off the board for you know
[TS]
00:37:23
◼
►
for a decade
[TS]
00:37:25
◼
►
that's kind of tough and I think I feel
[TS]
00:37:27
◼
►
like he might feel as though his readers
[TS]
00:37:30
◼
►
will feel ripped off if the book is you
[TS]
00:37:32
◼
►
know 400 pages long which I don't think
[TS]
00:37:35
◼
►
necessarily would be a bad plate
[TS]
00:37:37
◼
►
I don't know all these books need to be
[TS]
00:37:38
◼
►
thousand-page long he could tell the
[TS]
00:37:40
◼
►
story he can stick to the main
[TS]
00:37:41
◼
►
characters progressing along I'd be fine
[TS]
00:37:44
◼
►
with that if it was 400 good pages as
[TS]
00:37:47
◼
►
opposed to a thousand you know overall
[TS]
00:37:50
◼
►
mostly mediocre pages with you know some
[TS]
00:37:52
◼
►
good ideas here and some bad pages there
[TS]
00:37:54
◼
►
I think we'd all be like yeah that's
[TS]
00:37:56
◼
►
still pretty don't think that's I don't
[TS]
00:37:58
◼
►
think that's a serious writing
[TS]
00:37:59
◼
►
analytically and I i think the I i think
[TS]
00:38:02
◼
►
if he gave you four pages it would be
[TS]
00:38:03
◼
►
400 pages of the same stuff so you might
[TS]
00:38:05
◼
►
as well get a thousand out of it because
[TS]
00:38:07
◼
►
that's but that's the pace that's what
[TS]
00:38:09
◼
►
it's gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna
[TS]
00:38:11
◼
►
make it up in volume
[TS]
00:38:12
◼
►
yeah and just set up the way he's riding
[TS]
00:38:14
◼
►
slowly but surely i'm not selling these
[TS]
00:38:17
◼
►
books at a loss on the plus side
[TS]
00:38:19
◼
►
apparently he has stated publicly that
[TS]
00:38:21
◼
►
there are no more new POV characters
[TS]
00:38:24
◼
►
being introduced after this book and all
[TS]
00:38:26
◼
►
whatever we had what another the
[TS]
00:38:29
◼
►
freighter comes to be on a helicopter
[TS]
00:38:31
◼
►
drops a few characters are all my god
[TS]
00:38:34
◼
►
Jason you're just spoiled the whole
[TS]
00:38:35
◼
►
knows where his it's an island island
[TS]
00:38:38
◼
►
moves so any Indian thousand pages of
[TS]
00:38:42
◼
►
your time invested in this what what do
[TS]
00:38:47
◼
►
you think what was the what was the
[TS]
00:38:48
◼
►
verdict about about dance with dragons
[TS]
00:38:51
◼
►
I'll say I enjoyed it but having now
[TS]
00:38:54
◼
►
talked about it and realized all the
[TS]
00:38:56
◼
►
issues I had with it i'm not really in
[TS]
00:38:59
◼
►
any hurry to go back and really like I
[TS]
00:39:01
◼
►
thought about rereading this series
[TS]
00:39:03
◼
►
before because I couldn't remember most
[TS]
00:39:05
◼
►
of what happened and I thought about
[TS]
00:39:07
◼
►
that i thought about a little more and I
[TS]
00:39:09
◼
►
said you know what
[TS]
00:39:10
◼
►
no I don't there's not enough time I
[TS]
00:39:12
◼
►
just don't care enough and I think as
[TS]
00:39:14
◼
►
each book goes on i think it's unlikely
[TS]
00:39:16
◼
►
i will ever read these books I just kind
[TS]
00:39:18
◼
►
of wanted to be done
[TS]
00:39:19
◼
►
I mean I want to be done and done well
[TS]
00:39:20
◼
►
but i also just kind of wanted to be
[TS]
00:39:22
◼
►
over at this point
[TS]
00:39:24
◼
►
yeah I as somebody who you know I'd read
[TS]
00:39:26
◼
►
the first two books way back when and
[TS]
00:39:29
◼
►
then reread the entire series this year
[TS]
00:39:32
◼
►
and it took me something like four or
[TS]
00:39:34
◼
►
five months to finish all these
[TS]
00:39:36
◼
►
including dance with dragons and you
[TS]
00:39:39
◼
►
know they're good stories they're
[TS]
00:39:42
◼
►
engrossing but when I was you know Glenn
[TS]
00:39:45
◼
►
was asking if he should read them
[TS]
00:39:46
◼
►
because he'd never read them and I'm
[TS]
00:39:47
◼
►
like I have a hard time recommending
[TS]
00:39:50
◼
►
these books to anybody because it's not
[TS]
00:39:52
◼
►
I mean it's not that they're they're not
[TS]
00:39:53
◼
►
well-written and they don't have
[TS]
00:39:54
◼
►
interesting concepts but I'm like if I
[TS]
00:39:57
◼
►
if I had spent five months reading you
[TS]
00:40:00
◼
►
know a lot of other really good fiction
[TS]
00:40:02
◼
►
what I have been just as happy not
[TS]
00:40:04
◼
►
having this book in my life and not
[TS]
00:40:06
◼
►
having this book series in my life and I
[TS]
00:40:07
◼
►
think unfortunately I think the answer
[TS]
00:40:09
◼
►
is yes I'm like I'm not sure if there's
[TS]
00:40:11
◼
►
anything here that I it's got its got
[TS]
00:40:14
◼
►
into that hardest to recommend point
[TS]
00:40:15
◼
►
right like a book if you read a book if
[TS]
00:40:17
◼
►
there's only Booker to you be this is
[TS]
00:40:19
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really promising yeah I should tell
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00:40:21
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people read this or if it was you know
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over and complete and I thought like
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00:40:25
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that you would you would have a full
[TS]
00:40:26
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picture of it but right now you're in
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the middle so it's like right
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00:40:29
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recommending a book to somewhere in the
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middle of it
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00:40:31
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I don't know how it turns out is in the
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00:40:33
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balance recommending lost at season 4
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yeah i think the game of films the the
[TS]
00:40:38
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whole series now is in this interesting
[TS]
00:40:40
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kind of cultural inflection point right
[TS]
00:40:42
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because people who would never in a
[TS]
00:40:45
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thousand years read fantasy novel are
[TS]
00:40:48
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picking up a game of thrones because of
[TS]
00:40:49
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the HBO series which i think is great
[TS]
00:40:51
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because it opens them up to a new genre
[TS]
00:40:53
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but i think on the other hand if I were
[TS]
00:40:55
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charged george RR martin i would feel
[TS]
00:40:57
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incredible journey thanks
[TS]
00:40:59
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rgr driver
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00:41:00
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anybody i would feel an incredible
[TS]
00:41:04
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amount of pressure to to you know live
[TS]
00:41:07
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up to these people's expectations and I
[TS]
00:41:09
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think the first book was the best book
[TS]
00:41:11
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out of the the five so far so kind of I
[TS]
00:41:16
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don't know it's a tough spot for him to
[TS]
00:41:18
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be and of course you know he can cry on
[TS]
00:41:20
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giant piles of money but exactly
[TS]
00:41:22
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alright and I I think I kind of agree
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00:41:25
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with that this was their parts of it
[TS]
00:41:27
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that I really liked and parts of it that
[TS]
00:41:28
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I felt frustrated by and I ate reminded
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00:41:31
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me of what i like about the series and
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00:41:33
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it made me think you know again nervous
[TS]
00:41:35
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thoughts about the building of this of
[TS]
00:41:38
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of the series and how it's gonna get
[TS]
00:41:39
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resolved but um but I still like the
[TS]
00:41:41
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series about by the next ball be there
[TS]
00:41:43
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by the next book 15 minute delay my ear
[TS]
00:41:46
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and he's acting like this point throwing
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00:41:48
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it away i mean i threw away through a
[TS]
00:41:50
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wheel a time after seven books and I
[TS]
00:41:53
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don't regret that but you know who knows
[TS]
00:41:55
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that was a smart plan as someone who has
[TS]
00:41:58
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read all of them who is my friend keeps
[TS]
00:42:00
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trying to convince me like all you have
[TS]
00:42:01
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the last ones with the ones have been
[TS]
00:42:03
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written by the other guy try and
[TS]
00:42:04
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actually pretty good i'm like i'm not
[TS]
00:42:06
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going for more books of craft just ate
[TS]
00:42:08
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two books that you think are all right
[TS]
00:42:10
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with it
[TS]
00:42:10
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read some of his original fiction and
[TS]
00:42:12
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this is why I don't read the harry
[TS]
00:42:14
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potter and harrypotter harrypotter all
[TS]
00:42:17
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of those books are energy are enjoyable
[TS]
00:42:19
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you know they have some crappy parts but
[TS]
00:42:22
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i would say each individual book is
[TS]
00:42:24
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light-hearted enough and fun enough that
[TS]
00:42:26
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you don't regret reading them i read the
[TS]
00:42:28
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first one and I regretted alright so
[TS]
00:42:30
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we're going to stop it there
[TS]
00:42:32
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we're going to press save on this
[TS]
00:42:34
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edition of the incomparable podcast
[TS]
00:42:36
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we're going to bring John syracuse it
[TS]
00:42:38
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back in and in our next episode we will
[TS]
00:42:40
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talk about Patrick Rothfuss 'as sequel
[TS]
00:42:43
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to the name of the wind all the wise
[TS]
00:42:45
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man's fear but until then I want to
[TS]
00:42:48
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thank everybody for listening i want to
[TS]
00:42:49
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thank my guest John siracusa serenity
[TS]
00:42:52
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Caldwell damn Lauren and Scott McNulty
[TS]
00:42:54
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for the uncomfortable podcast I'm Jason
[TS]
00:42:57
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Snell we'll see you next time
[TS]
00:42:59
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[Music]
[TS]