0:00:00the incomparable podcast number 62
0:00:07October Atlantia LM
0:00:11we're back on the uncomfortable podcast
0:00:14I'm your host Jason smell and it is time
0:00:16for another edition of our part where we
0:00:18meet over skype because we don't
0:00:21actually have a booklet really only the
0:00:24internet we are here to discuss to 1000
0:00:27page long fantasy novels a dance with
0:00:29dragons by george RR martin and the wise
0:00:32man's fear by Patrick Rothfuss now this
0:00:36conversation is in fact going to be so
0:00:38long that we're going to start adhere to
0:00:41one episode about a dance with dragons
0:00:43take a break and come back with a second
0:00:46episode about the wise man's fear so
0:00:50joining me today to talk about these
0:00:52gigantic fantasy tomes are damned Ouran
0:00:56High Dam digestion I just want to let
0:00:59you know that i put the Dan in dance
0:01:01with dragons good dance with dragons
0:01:04really exactly i am in fact right now
0:01:06with dragons with dragons excellent
0:01:09serenity Caldwell is here as well I am
0:01:12do you have any dragons dear you I have
0:01:14no dragons I am dragon free shame
0:01:17John syracuse also joins us hi John no
0:01:21spoilers no spoilers you're going to be
0:01:23silent for for the first half of this
0:01:25podcast because you haven't you haven't
0:01:27read the game of thrones books or have
0:01:28you only read the first one I've never
0:01:30had anything my wife actually started
0:01:31reading them after seeing the TV show
0:01:33but I'm i don't have room for that in my
0:01:35life right now you watch the TV show and
0:01:37want to remain unspoiled exactly right
0:01:39so we would otherwise spoil that
0:01:42whatever six this season supporters for
0:01:442017 John you're cool that's right well
0:01:48it'll spoil everything in-between right
0:01:49by exactly and we rely for debt and
0:01:52Scott Mykelti also joins us he reads
0:01:54everything hi Scott
0:01:55hello yes it does it's good to hear your
0:01:59voice
0:01:59it's good to be hurt alright so I dance
0:02:03with dragons haven't booked in the ne a
0:02:08song of ice and fire series which will
0:02:10cover roughly seven between seven and
0:02:14nine t-ball use by the time it's done
0:02:19I think volume up volume 74 i'm really
0:02:23looking forward to yeah that'll be good
0:02:26that's like a good one huh her all the
0:02:28pieces all the pieces will be in place
0:02:30yeah a hop with heffalumps the story can
0:02:33really begin that that's when they go to
0:02:35hogwarts well Tony kill off the last of
0:02:38the main characters and we've met
0:02:40entirely new cast the people you think
0:02:42are being characters are not they're not
0:02:45in fact it's an entire book of volume 72
0:02:48is entirely about raff the sweetling
0:02:49awesome he finally gets his due he gets
0:02:53he gets killed
0:02:55well as a call back there was one of our
0:02:56previous episodes on remember which one
0:02:58but yes one of the many previous
0:03:00episodes so so dance with dragons i
0:03:02think the first thing to talk about
0:03:03about this book is that the previous
0:03:07book a feast for crows is this weird
0:03:10really weird book where he took chunks
0:03:14of the book he was writing and pulled
0:03:16them out and published them in order to
0:03:18not go ten years between books but as a
0:03:21result the structure of a dance with
0:03:23dragons is very strange because sort of
0:03:27midway through characters from the other
0:03:29book reappear and the first part of the
0:03:32book is in parallel with that other book
0:03:34to the point where as I was as i was
0:03:36reading it I kept thinking you know in
0:03:38the end they're going to need to just
0:03:39tear the this book and the other book
0:03:41apart stick them together in order for
0:03:43anybody to make sense of it because I
0:03:45you know I it it's not a very good
0:03:48experience you've got it's just it's
0:03:51very strange because because you know
0:03:53characters just reappear midway through
0:03:54and you're like oh right she was in a
0:03:56cliffhanger at the end of the last book
0:03:59and then we didn't hear from her for 500
0:04:00pages it's very strange
0:04:02Jason it's actually a pretty good
0:04:03experience if you actually have a red a
0:04:06feast for crows in six years because as
0:04:08it turns out you don't remember anything
0:04:10that happened anyways I i concur
0:04:13it's coming pretty much coming fresh
0:04:14into it like it's a whole new story who
0:04:16are as somebody who hadn't read a feast
0:04:20for crows and then went into it read it
0:04:22and that immediately read Dance with
0:04:24Dragons i think i finished feast for
0:04:25crows three days before dance with
0:04:27dragons came out it actually in my
0:04:29opinion holds together just fine
0:04:31it's a it's a little weird
0:04:33to overlap but at the same time I mean
0:04:35I've read enough weird fantasy books
0:04:37weather like this is going to be in the
0:04:38present then this is going to be in the
0:04:40past and this is gonna yeah but what
0:04:41would work better if you just took the
0:04:43chapters in feast for crows and sort of
0:04:45slaughtered them into dance with dragons
0:04:46and made it one giant 1,500 pages of
0:04:50wednesday i mean to find better if
0:04:52honestly I actually like telling the
0:04:56stories and chunks because when that
0:04:59what like when you think of what's the
0:05:00one before it storm of swords is that
0:05:02the the big giant one argue that's yeah
0:05:043 the the thing that really frustrates
0:05:07me about the RR martin series is just
0:05:10the rapid you know interchange of
0:05:12characters and being like all right word
0:05:14cliffhanger and then we don't get to
0:05:15find out what happens to this person for
0:05:17500 pages because we're going to go
0:05:19visit all the other characters so
0:05:21actually having having a feast for crows
0:05:23just focus mostly on the Lannisters and
0:05:26focus on their story i actually found
0:05:27really nice because it was very easy to
0:05:31follow
0:05:32it's like all the characters you hate in
0:05:34one convenient location
0:05:36well and then they give you so much to
0:05:38hate about them so and then yeah if you
0:05:40want you to hate what exactly Minnesota
0:05:42to its true but now I actually I don't
0:05:45feel like it was a it was weird and i
0:05:48actually prefer it that way I i gotta
0:05:49say you know on sort of a connected
0:05:52topic two characters that I hate is that
0:05:56the dance with dragons also finally gave
0:05:58me another narrator that I actually
0:05:59liked or like as a character who I
0:06:02actually you know if you're positively
0:06:06about I guess subject like might be
0:06:08stronger because i'm not sure there is
0:06:09more than then like one or two that i
0:06:11like but that was refreshing
0:06:14there are so many people there are so
0:06:15many characters in these books are just
0:06:16like you know you really read a chapter
0:06:19from the point of view of Cersei and
0:06:20you're like man I cannot get behind you
0:06:22no matter what you do
0:06:24so who do you like I like Sir Barristan
0:06:29ah sir Barristan using he's like he's a
0:06:33stalwart dude right like he is he's one
0:06:36of the few like legitimately honorable
0:06:38people in this in this world and so it
0:06:41is refreshing to every once in awhile in
0:06:43a world that is so populated with
0:06:44admittedly fascinating you know
0:06:46characters from different shades of gray
0:06:48it is nice at least to get one character
0:06:50who seems to have a code that they hang
0:06:51onto yes but he's challenged right
0:06:56even he is conflicted and challenge but
0:06:58in a way that like he tries to really
0:07:01you know stick to his beliefs as he goes
0:07:04through that and anything that makes it
0:07:06that keeps him from being boring I I
0:07:10just you know it's nice to have a
0:07:11character who is who is someone that you
0:07:13can actually think I'll man you know I
0:07:15hope this I hope this guy survives is
0:07:16not good
0:07:17there's so many characters words like
0:07:18man I don't care if you live or die
0:07:21you know I actually really enjoyed ?
0:07:24tell in this book which I wasn't
0:07:26expecting to he's whining he's a
0:07:27complete 24 he's a complete idiot but i
0:07:31actually do we follow the fire the
0:07:32spoiler and Jason
0:07:33[Music]
0:07:38yes yes okay if you would be dumb he got
0:07:42eaten by a freaking dragon i know but
0:07:45what he meant well no you know what i
0:07:48find i found his entire character arc
0:07:51hilarious and the the fact that he you
0:07:55know i'm going to travel across the
0:07:56world to get a girl to marry me a girl
0:07:59that I have never seen a girl who may or
0:08:01may not exist
0:08:01I just we're going to just kill off
0:08:03random members of our party it was just
0:08:05such an entertaining story to follow and
0:08:07he was so naive right but I guess part
0:08:10of me felt like in a book that's a
0:08:11thousand pages if you had cut out that
0:08:13entire subplot would it have mattered
0:08:16no no no not even remotely that kind of
0:08:19stops me in my tracks because they're I
0:08:21think there are a lot of really good
0:08:23stories and arcs in this book and it
0:08:26just a boggles my mind that we we spend
0:08:28our time on on people like when Martel
0:08:30who you know I like some of the
0:08:32characters and some of the like
0:08:33situations they drew with him but I got
0:08:35to the end of it but really you brought
0:08:37this guy in just so you can have them
0:08:38put on you know basically burned from
0:08:40head to toe so that that it that
0:08:42illustrates the destructive power of the
0:08:44Dragons right I don't know if you need
0:08:45that illustration but that's kind of his
0:08:47purposes you know he goes after her
0:08:49he thinks he can control these dragons
0:08:51and he can't because only one person
0:08:53really can but Kenny who can she
0:08:55we don't know it just seems a long way
0:08:57to go to prove a point in defense of
0:08:59Quentin Martel I think this sets up a
0:09:01very nice thing for the other Targaryen
0:09:04the because i feel like this is a this
0:09:06is a crazy lady harder to call of course
0:09:08he's going to get murdered but i think
0:09:10it's an i think it's an interesting pre
0:09:11parallel and I mean it also might as
0:09:14well call him Prince red herring and
0:09:18Magoffin you know it cuts it kept the
0:09:20early Denarius stuff from being flat out
0:09:22boring so the first third of this book I
0:09:24almost walked away and didn't pick it
0:09:26back up and it was very very lucky that
0:09:29it got interesting about i don't know
0:09:32how many kindle pages in but it was at
0:09:34least a third of the way through the
0:09:35book where it finally the story finally
0:09:36picked up and was finally something that
0:09:38I felt like I could dig into that you
0:09:40didn't like her story because there's
0:09:42too much kind of municipal regulation
0:09:45well and that
0:09:46municipal municipal wrangling is fine as
0:09:50somebody who you know watched all the
0:09:52seasons of The West Wing and loved it
0:09:54but they made it very dull well I was
0:09:58back in forth and back and forth reopen
0:10:01the fighting pits now I'm not gonna
0:10:02reopen the fighting pits no seriously
0:10:03reopen the fighting pits now I'm not
0:10:05going to do like it was like like 50
0:10:06pages of that don't forget the O but
0:10:08what about my roguish secret lover that
0:10:11you don't know where he's back however
0:10:13but I can't love it but I do love her
0:10:15but I can't have a great about the
0:10:16fighting pits mention the red but I can
0:10:20shoot we mentioned in earlier books I
0:10:24mean I don't exist but he's mentioned
0:10:26several times
0:10:27yes but is he mentioned as like her her
0:10:29lusty love her paramour
0:10:31yeah it's got like she's got like a
0:10:33crush on him or in the earlier book i
0:10:35think and then you know it's not they
0:10:36don't actually consummated until this
0:10:37book buddies can you know he's clearly
0:10:40got like some swagger behind him you
0:10:42know he's trying to sort of seducers RZ
0:10:44swarthy and swashbuckling and all that
0:10:47was going to complain about the the
0:10:49Dornish men and also the iron board that
0:10:53i felt like one of my big complaints
0:10:54about the previous book is that we get
0:10:56introduced to all of these people in
0:10:58Dorne who who are like this there that
0:11:00like the sisters slow sir whatever
0:11:03michael dorn he's awesome he's great
0:11:07elephant yeah it would've been better
0:11:09without that if if the if the door had
0:11:12been wharf and Klingons there is no
0:11:14order in slaying a dragon that would
0:11:17have been great
0:11:17yes to the opposition I I feel like we
0:11:20we're so we're how many thousands of
0:11:22pages into the series now and suddenly
0:11:24he's opened these whole sections of
0:11:27storyline that our characters we've
0:11:29never met before who are just sort of
0:11:31like conniving and yet it also feels
0:11:35like they're they're doomed to failure
0:11:38like when Martel I don't know that
0:11:39that's actually one of my frustrations
0:11:41about this book and the previous book is
0:11:42that they're just big chunks that I feel
0:11:45like if i had invested in that story
0:11:47line since the beginning of the series I
0:11:49might feel different about it but having
0:11:51them be added it's a little bit like
0:11:53when they added characters to lost and
0:11:56everybody's like oh great sure
0:11:58four characters with missiles just I
0:12:00think they deliberately added I mean the
0:12:02door door has mentioned earlier on but i
0:12:05think they added that he added them
0:12:07specifically as sort of a a
0:12:08counterweight because the idea being and
0:12:11and I agree it seems sort of back
0:12:13filling in some ways to make these guys
0:12:14like you know so powerful that that
0:12:17their allegiance will actually make a
0:12:19difference right in this war mean that's
0:12:20the whole point right
0:12:21a lot of people are concerned like all
0:12:23of the Dornishmen why would some other
0:12:24force or whatever like we could be in
0:12:26trouble and so they're kind of supposed
0:12:29to be a big deal but at the same time it
0:12:32does seem kind of late for them to come
0:12:35into the picture and make a difference
0:12:38once were five books and X thousand
0:12:40pages in and during the whole--you know
0:12:42open the fighting pits close the
0:12:44fighting pits that you need to have some
0:12:46kind of anchor to the main storyline of
0:12:50you know the Westeros war and stuff so
0:12:52you don't get lost in this whole thing
0:12:53of ohh I there are people in masks
0:12:56killing other people and slavers don't
0:12:59like me and all the stuff i see what
0:13:00they were trying to do with the within a
0:13:03narrow storyline and they're trying to
0:13:04say oh yes ruling a city not the easiest
0:13:07of work but again I feel like they
0:13:09proved that in feast for crows with
0:13:12Circe's crazy downfall and I'm not
0:13:14trying I'm not sure if they if the
0:13:16initial intention was to contrast again
0:13:18with your saying Jason about merging the
0:13:20books contrasting Circe's crazy crappy
0:13:22management of the government vs dean
0:13:25heiresses still not very successful but
0:13:27maybe more tempered but it's more
0:13:31idealistic yeah that's the whole point
0:13:33and cheese for us she set up to be
0:13:35another one of these characters that
0:13:37were supposed to root for i think which
0:13:39I it was weird because I felt like
0:13:40coming in and i said this i think in the
0:13:42earlier podcast where we talked to a
0:13:44game of thrones never really found
0:13:46myself sympathizing with I mean I guess
0:13:47I I there was some sympathy in terms of
0:13:49like her situation being kind of crappy
0:13:51but is because the whole book is
0:13:53predicated on the idea that like her
0:13:55father who was insane was kicked out as
0:13:57king it's like yeah I guess I don't see
0:13:59why you should be in charge then I mean
0:14:01and so I think we're supposed to to feel
0:14:03more positive about her after she's
0:14:05tried really hard to run this city and
0:14:08like row and become a real queen
0:14:10I'm a real queen yeah I i think i think
0:14:14that's where there he was trying to go
0:14:16with that but it does get bogged down in
0:14:18seemingly in my new show once she gets
0:14:21the chance to basically leave the city
0:14:25and go back to Westeros which is what
0:14:27she wants to do supposedly and she says
0:14:29no I can't abandon my people and you're
0:14:32like no just you and that would be far
0:14:35too interesting i will stay here
0:14:37tell me more about the coup the tax code
0:14:39yeah man that pig mask
0:14:42yeah well I mean plus we do have we do
0:14:44have an intersection with the the main
0:14:46ish story which is the chi sort of
0:14:49crosses paths with Tyrion right like
0:14:51unknowingly but he does show up on this
0:14:55other content on content continent
0:14:58well he's down in the bottom of the
0:14:59fighting pits women dragon attack
0:15:01happens
0:15:02yeah exactly and so they get and you
0:15:04can't think these two characters again
0:15:06are set on this collision course and
0:15:08then as so often happens in this books
0:15:10they totally miss each other which was
0:15:12kind of annoying who knew that the
0:15:13dwarves and the pig and the dog it in
0:15:17the Attic oh yeah that the wedding at
0:15:19Joffrey's wedding would have done
0:15:20babbling yeah vitally important very
0:15:23important apparently the piggies
0:15:25checkouts coming there is that sad
0:15:28moment or the end where we're Tyrion
0:15:30tells his his friend the other door fee
0:15:32a set basically you're there
0:15:35they've been eat there's no way they've
0:15:38survived sorry dear
0:15:40we have to go where we joined up with
0:15:42the mercenaries now poor little tiny
0:15:45female dwarf I felt so terribly bad for
0:15:49her the entire sheet you know a lot of
0:15:51RR Martin's women get screwed around in
0:15:54this book but I I mean they do a very
0:15:57good job painting her as kind of the
0:15:59paragon of innocence and just watching
0:16:02it shatter away piece by terribly torn
0:16:06off pieces just a little heartbreaking
0:16:08little said you know her brother was
0:16:11killed horribly and and and all she's
0:16:15got is the pig and the dog and
0:16:17oh and the Empyrean won't love her no he
0:16:20won't
0:16:20it's true i might be the noblest thing
0:16:22that he does though ya know it's true i
0:16:24think and and you know I i really like I
0:16:27really have always liked period although
0:16:29i think he is a good example of a
0:16:32character who is it got many many gray
0:16:35areas but it's also very likeable and I
0:16:38think we talked about that a bit in the
0:16:39in the podcast about the TV show to
0:16:41which is that you know his flaws are
0:16:44that they're all up until you know the
0:16:46end of the previous book he's really
0:16:47loyal to his family huh yeah right up
0:16:51until a certain point basically up into
0:16:53a point where he learns that that was
0:16:55not reciprocated right right you know
0:16:56that he was not treated with the same
0:16:58loyalty that he was giving a little long
0:17:00so you know shoots dead wood cross but
0:17:01ok as you do
0:17:03yeah yeah yeah oh so I i have a question
0:17:05about about about Tyrion story in this
0:17:08book and it's where the horse go oh no
0:17:11wait thats the question he asks 'i I was
0:17:14a little disappointed that his story was
0:17:16this goes back to a point i think red
0:17:18made which is you know you wait so long
0:17:20to get back to that character and I feel
0:17:22as if george RR martin is writing seven
0:17:24novels or eight novels about all the
0:17:26characters in these books but you only
0:17:28get up you know one seventh of the novel
0:17:31each time interleaved with all the other
0:17:34novels I don't know so i was a little
0:17:36disappointed in interior story arc where
0:17:38he's spent a lot of time traveling right
0:17:40now not really doing anything brushes
0:17:44with gray scale w/e i mean but the gray
0:17:47scales are far more interesting victim
0:17:48elsewhere write and so sometimes i think
0:17:51i think the question for me is Tyrion
0:17:52like if you look at the Arkin about what
0:17:54he did in this book right
0:17:56he traveled around a lot he introduced
0:17:59us to a lot of other characters but
0:18:01there's very little action that he
0:18:03undertakes right and that's that's this
0:18:06point after especially having such a
0:18:08major action in the last book right is
0:18:11you know if we have that culminating
0:18:14point at the end of feast for crows and
0:18:15and you know dance of dragons is largely
0:18:18he's largely introspective right he
0:18:20spends a lot of his time thinking about
0:18:21things and not actually doing much again
0:18:25i feel this is one of our Martin
0:18:27sweetnesses is that he tries i mean i
0:18:30under
0:18:30stand that you need to have character
0:18:32arcs in a in a long series and and
0:18:35having the introspective moments and
0:18:36having Denarius showing that she can
0:18:39rule things and having Circe's fall from
0:18:41Greece you know these are all important
0:18:43things but I don't necessarily know if
0:18:45keen can craft them properly
0:18:48like I feel like we could have very
0:18:51easily figured out that yes curious
0:18:53Tyrion was feeling guilty and was
0:18:55feeling problems and and wants nothing
0:18:57more than to find Tasha but she has been
0:19:00yesterday you know embark on this side
0:19:03journey is as part of you know his
0:19:04penance for fleeing fleeing west coast
0:19:08but I feel like that could have been
0:19:09wrapped up by a different writer and
0:19:11like two chapters even I mean Tyrion
0:19:13gets what six or seven chapters in this
0:19:15book
0:19:16beginning middle end what beginning
0:19:18middle end it's not that there's that
0:19:20there's a very definite structure that
0:19:21you can do here but it feels like a lot
0:19:23of middle here
0:19:24yes very much does well it'sit's all
0:19:26middle for Tyrion in this book it's all
0:19:28metal for like this whole book is all
0:19:30middle really yeah a lot of it is i mean
0:19:32granted there are I you know having
0:19:35having been critical I think there are
0:19:36things i really enjoyed um I no no no he
0:19:39didn't
0:19:40that's right i didn't enjoy anything
0:19:41about this book no I I mean all right
0:19:45well okay hardest john-john storyline
0:19:48uh-oh jon jon is one of the other most
0:19:50of the characters see the problem with
0:19:51John storyline as much as you know I
0:19:54guess maybe my point of view is tempered
0:19:55by looking back and thinking about where
0:19:57that story line ends you will be
0:20:01betrayed oh yeah whatever whatever your
0:20:04sister will appear otherwise she's not
0:20:06my sister really well it's similar but
0:20:09if you will be betrayed you don't had
0:20:12well I mean I thought I really actually
0:20:15kind of in you know I liked his dilemma
0:20:17right with trying to figure out like all
0:20:20should I you know bring the wild things
0:20:21over he's like all right I'm gonna do
0:20:22this and like everybody else was like
0:20:25you're nuts
0:20:26Graham it was any but it was just its
0:20:30decision that from you know from John's
0:20:31perspective been seeing it through
0:20:32John's perspective like this is actually
0:20:34kind of makes sense right
0:20:36this this seems like a you know I get an
0:20:37unpopular decision but one that needs to
0:20:39be made and there is a good argument
0:20:41that like these least these people are
0:20:43human
0:20:44even if they don't always you know see
0:20:45eye-to-eye with us they're not creepy
0:20:47dead things you know stalking us but at
0:20:51the same time yet there is a lot of
0:20:52there's a lot of wrangling there's a lot
0:20:55of back-and-forth with him I think that
0:20:56storyline mirrors Denarius is storyline
0:20:59as well right because they're both
0:21:00struggling Colin struggling with our and
0:21:03you know doing kind of administrative
0:21:04things and getting coming to grips with
0:21:06decisions and then getting our trade and
0:21:10everyone's like oh what's going on are
0:21:12always so inevitably that you know for
0:21:13books down the road they can get married
0:21:15right and because of Westeros killer
0:21:17kill everybody else engine light right
0:21:20because he's the actual air of the
0:21:22Targaryen and his mother is Ned sister
0:21:25and his father is the Prince Targaryen
0:21:29who's who starts off the the whole war
0:21:32that leads to the unit opposing the king
0:21:35and everything right are we still going
0:21:37on sat theory I I am I agree
0:21:40what's up that's plausible theory I
0:21:41don't we get we get we get new
0:21:44information about John's mother though
0:21:46in this book don't we
0:21:48I feel like there's that there's that
0:21:49entire story about John's mother is
0:21:52there i don't think so there's all i
0:21:55remember when i think of John's mother
0:21:57all I remember is the first episode of
0:21:59the TV show which shall be like don't
0:22:01talk about your mother when I come back
0:22:04yeah yeah no I said I think about what
0:22:07jokes nose and because he's he's stabbed
0:22:10me and the failure and when I always
0:22:13friends so it was stabbed in the back by
0:22:14all his resume so here's what to do with
0:22:17it
0:22:17it is my problem with it is the same
0:22:19problem i had with the the searcy
0:22:21cliffhanger in the last book which is in
0:22:23Game of Thrones they chopped off his
0:22:26head and he's dead and that's and that's
0:22:28you know towards the end of the book and
0:22:29you like how they're going to get out of
0:22:30this one oh geez he's dead but but the
0:22:33seriously thing and especially with John
0:22:36I feel like there's so much run up to it
0:22:38and it's like it's a cliffhanger and
0:22:39there's no way I mean either he's not
0:22:41dead or he's going to transfer his
0:22:43spirit into some other person or
0:22:45whatever but so it feels so artificial
0:22:49that it leads to this point and it feels
0:22:51so false that were being given a
0:22:52cliffhanger that we know is not going to
0:22:55be paid off whereas with Ned it
0:22:57it's very clear that he was dead and not
0:22:58coming back so I felt like that was
0:23:01really unnecessary that if that's what
0:23:03you're building up to is this is the
0:23:05shocking moment that you're not going to
0:23:07really be able to pay off
0:23:09you know I i would really love i was
0:23:11thinking just think about this what
0:23:12you're saying is that i really would
0:23:13love this to be end up being the story
0:23:15of all the middlemen who you know keep
0:23:18everything running and like they're
0:23:19they're quite unsung victories I'm
0:23:21thinking again about one of my other
0:23:23favorite characters Davos Seaworth try
0:23:25to get any night this book i love who
0:23:27was killed off off-screen in the
0:23:29previous book and only now do we
0:23:31discover he wasn't killed it's all part
0:23:33of a plan how you knew he wasn't killed
0:23:35on the last yeah but what I was like no
0:23:38but there's there's every possibility
0:23:39even realize what we've seen and liked
0:23:41it could happen
0:23:42he's not that central of a character
0:23:44he's a very likeable character but he's
0:23:45not like a central character um and and
0:23:49i don't know i like the idea of all the
0:23:50middlemen being like yeah hey we're not
0:23:52the big guys in decision-making you know
0:23:54big guys and power making all the
0:23:55decisions we just kind of slipped from
0:23:56place to place but in the end you know
0:23:58we're probably the most important people
0:24:00here and i also thought I don't know
0:24:03what do you guys think I want to ask you
0:24:05what did you think of the beyond
0:24:07storyline haha oh my god
0:24:10creepy i never thought i would feel any
0:24:13sort of pity for beyond great joy but
0:24:18boy did I pity at pool yeah after that
0:24:24it was interesting I mean it was brutal
0:24:26and and disturbing this you know that
0:24:30was a great story with you if you take
0:24:31it was it was it was fascinating via the
0:24:34best part of the book we talk about
0:24:35middles beyond healing story came to an
0:24:39end right he betrayed he betrayed the
0:24:42Starks and and all that and history came
0:24:45to an end and and then with this story
0:24:47we get a complete story arc from feeling
0:24:50where he starts at the lowest of the low
0:24:52points and by the end is is calling
0:24:57himself by his own name again and has
0:25:00taken a take the women and basically
0:25:02jumped jumped out of the castle to run
0:25:05away to to the King means tried he tried
0:25:08to atone right he's actually trying to
0:25:10redeem him
0:25:10so yeah yeah after he's and he's broken
0:25:13and battered and that and that that's an
0:25:14arterial knocked out yeah like that
0:25:16that's he starts in one place and ends
0:25:19up in another yeah thats oh so in this
0:25:21book full of medals i really loved that
0:25:24the feelings story was an actual story
0:25:28with progression and and consequences
0:25:30and yeah I i think yeah maybe that was
0:25:32the best part of the book
0:25:35trying to think of any others yeah we
0:25:36got a couple chapters here and there for
0:25:38some people who were in feast for crows
0:25:39we got a little we get like one Jamie
0:25:41chapter maybe to Jamie all that happens
0:25:44with Jamie he goes to negotiate with me
0:25:46with river i well know we thought that
0:25:49we thought that uh that the debris and
0:25:51was was baby dead which again is
0:25:54bullshit hanger
0:25:55yeah there's no way that but she shows
0:25:57up at the end this question I mean she
0:25:59might be dead and brought back because
0:26:01that's what you happening but we did
0:26:03they ever resolved i can honestly can't
0:26:06remember because at the end of at the
0:26:08end of book 3 there's a creek
0:26:09cliffhanger where it turns out you know
0:26:11cabins alive right yeah well she's the
0:26:13great she's like the Grey Lady Rainicorn
0:26:15she's stealing hard and she's gotten
0:26:17right she's gotten especially
0:26:19resurrected and so she appears and yeah
0:26:24so that that's just what we don't see
0:26:25her appear again after that right now
0:26:27yeah yeah we do she she appears your
0:26:29cruise i can't speak right or doesn't
0:26:31speak clearly and and that's uh that's
0:26:34obviously where because we see that with
0:26:36Breanna it's with the the midst of the
0:26:39Brotherhood yeah the guy who turned out
0:26:42log beric Dondarrion and his rights
0:26:44exactly marrying men
0:26:45exactly so so I'm thoresen all those
0:26:49right guys right so that's where Jamie's
0:26:52going just like Jane let go
0:26:54going in the end brands related and all
0:26:56that but that that's clearly just you
0:27:00know bridge by chapter to keep it alive
0:27:02and not dealing with it right now
0:27:04whereas some of these other storylines
0:27:06like I was going to bring up brand who
0:27:09kind of vanished
0:27:10yeah is back and he didn't he that's a
0:27:13bizarre story because he's like LED he
0:27:16and then some people from the lowlands
0:27:18are led into the far north by a guy who
0:27:21is apparently a essentially a a dead guy
0:27:23or a white Walker or whatever he is he's
0:27:25a he said he's an animated corpse but
0:27:28residents functional yeah and we'll just
0:27:31as a ranger and arguably I mean you know
0:27:34my first thought was that it's his uncle
0:27:36yeah yeah benjamin has been
0:27:38disappearances what book one yahoo news
0:27:40be giving up my first book yeah yeah
0:27:42very beginning so um that's weird and
0:27:44then and there but that's not the weird
0:27:46part because then there's a really
0:27:48well scene where there's like the
0:27:49hillside and it's covered in snow and
0:27:51they try to go up it turns out there
0:27:52like dead bodies everywhere in the snow
0:27:54and they tried to kill them and they go
0:27:55into the cave and then Brandon his
0:27:59friends get to meet with the tree people
0:28:00who are the children the children which
0:28:03is that that's that was weird stuff that
0:28:06was very creepy and then the a/c the
0:28:09past two trees yet if they can kind of
0:28:12interact but they can't really be CRO
0:28:14and animal residents to write because he
0:28:16he interacts with with a peon about this
0:28:20point in the godswood he actually sees
0:28:22that my thing is it is it with with
0:28:25Cersei to I mean there there are several
0:28:27points right right yeah our by trees and
0:28:29it's like it is that as if the tree is
0:28:31looking at me it's like that's because
0:28:33it is great the tree just didn't agree
0:28:37you know brands whole storyline here
0:28:39actually reminds me of something that
0:28:40happens and wise man's fear which I'll
0:28:42save for the wine Spencer section of the
0:28:44podcast but it's their parallels the
0:28:47trees are the security cameras
0:28:49yeah Westeros well um and then we have a
0:28:53couple chapters from Astra Greyjoy's the
0:28:57Greyjoy's in general career choice i
0:28:59don't understand she's kind of an
0:29:01interesting character I like her as a
0:29:03character i think this book to
0:29:04unfortunately didn't give her a Watson
0:29:05yeah I liked her as a character before
0:29:08she got her own point of view I liked
0:29:10her when we initially met her through so
0:29:13much
0:29:14yeah I had a new she was happy when
0:29:17she's well because it was that
0:29:18uninteresting things in the last book
0:29:19where it's where there's going to be a
0:29:21king smooth and we're gonna pick a guy
0:29:22and she says I'll be the king and those
0:29:25they know you're a girl you can't be the
0:29:27king and why you are get you and then
0:29:29they send her off and you mean yeah so I
0:29:32i took and we have a while to remember
0:29:34who she was because that wasn't that
0:29:37interesting the Ironborn of the Dornish
0:29:38do not interest me only Michael Dore the
0:29:41Dornish makes sense to me because they
0:29:43at least have some power and they seem
0:29:45to be interweaved with the Targaryen xin
0:29:48a to a great extent i mean right but
0:29:50yeah I have no idea why the Ironborn in
0:29:53this book like they're what one or two
0:29:55chapters with Victorian or Victarion or
0:29:57whatever
0:29:58yeah all of the other great joys I have
0:30:00no idea is trying to do the same thing
0:30:02as Martel right yes
0:30:04everybody's trying to go Mary Mary
0:30:06Dennis we could understand that LOL and
0:30:09the missing Targaryen yeah gone
0:30:12we got a couple of chapters of area who
0:30:14I do well I love that remains one of my
0:30:17favorite character that again we had
0:30:18that kind of false cliff later was like
0:30:20ooh she's blind
0:30:22oh but it's just temporary she's not
0:30:24yeah should get better
0:30:27I mean she's joined she's trying to join
0:30:29an organization that's all about false
0:30:31facing I mean you kind of knew from the
0:30:33beginning you know I just I i have no
0:30:36idea why the Greyjoy's with the
0:30:38exception
0:30:40you know with one exception i have no
0:30:41idea why the Greyjoy's are have been in
0:30:43this series from the start because
0:30:45everything i read is just kind of like
0:30:47okay what we already have X people
0:30:49competing for the throne it would be
0:30:51real it would really suck if after you
0:30:53know 8,000 pages it turned out that the
0:30:55only reason we have to we have to read
0:30:56about the door
0:30:58nish people let me and the Greyjoy's is
0:31:00because in the end you know they're
0:31:03needed for some plot complication and
0:31:05therefore we've spent a thousand pages
0:31:08on them because getting into something
0:31:09that was very soon and of arcane Oh
0:31:11Westeros law that says when there are
0:31:14two or three kids competing for the
0:31:16undisputed that the ceremony can do that
0:31:19right on Tuesday that's that's and
0:31:21Daenerys from having like learned all
0:31:22her like lawyerly stuff running that
0:31:24city with you call over to a loophole
0:31:26whatever Honor I have Jackie it all
0:31:28turns into a courtroom or on our western
0:31:30sea god pretty much know what the aria
0:31:33stuff is good because that's a great
0:31:34character and again it there's not
0:31:37really much of an arc there but there's
0:31:39a little bit i mean she's learning she
0:31:41learns she learns how to follow the guy
0:31:43and and ascend assassinate him basically
0:31:46so that she she has some progression in
0:31:48her character
0:31:49it's a little frustrating because her
0:31:50progression is you will become a
0:31:52faceless assassin but it's there's no
0:31:54doubt that that's important because we
0:31:56had the whole thing in the last book
0:31:57where you know where they're learning
0:31:59the wherewithal the Meister's train and
0:32:01and and there's the guy who takes the
0:32:04form of the other guy who gets killed in
0:32:06the prologue and all that's it it's
0:32:08clear that that's really important for
0:32:10later but
0:32:12you know again it's just that's an
0:32:13interesting point well now that you
0:32:15brought that up in the prologue samples
0:32:16right every book has a prologue and
0:32:18epilogue and they're always pretty much
0:32:19like one-offs right one-off narrators
0:32:21and dance of dragons is no different at
0:32:24the beginning we had that the wildling
0:32:26skin-changer right is there several the
0:32:30wolves and and tries to eat people and
0:32:33crazy stuff and then doesn't really
0:32:35become he's mentioned i believe a couple
0:32:37times by the wild things but not seen
0:32:39again right and then at the end we have
0:32:43sir Kevin who is it that is actually
0:32:47more of an interesting situation because
0:32:49we also get the surprise return of
0:32:51another character who is totally not in
0:32:53this book
0:32:53varus right we sort of squirrels himself
0:32:56way I kind of like the app me again
0:32:58he saved all the good stuff in the end
0:33:00it's like I wanted to read the end of
0:33:01the book and like that's all the only
0:33:02part I cared about but you know we have
0:33:04basically the death of a couple major
0:33:05character is there and kill Vera skills
0:33:08pycelle and Kevin Lannister right right
0:33:11because it's all part of the plot to
0:33:13which plot C apart
0:33:16fuck somebody claimed his own baby is
0:33:18playing his own game to write like
0:33:20clearly just like he's got he's got an
0:33:22agenda right I was like to him I think
0:33:25he's you know he's like totally
0:33:27untrustworthy I think he's a I think
0:33:28he's a great character he's a
0:33:30fascinating yeah it's nice to see him
0:33:32back
0:33:33so with all of this all of the said you
0:33:38know and there is so much as it is a
0:33:40thousand pages long
0:33:42you know I want to ask about this book
0:33:45in the context of the series because
0:33:46there's really only there's no other way
0:33:48to enjoy it or talk about it or anything
0:33:51did you guys get the sense that because
0:33:56again I i alluded to this at the
0:33:57beginning he says oh it's a second book
0:33:59series so two more books will all be
0:34:01wrapped up i read this book thinking at
0:34:04the pace that he's going
0:34:06this will take 10 more books because I
0:34:08felt to me like it up a little
0:34:09the story the fact that well now i'm
0:34:13concerned that if if he thinks he's got
0:34:15two books to tell the rest of the story
0:34:16i'm going to feel like we invested it
0:34:19you know 8,000 pages to get to a
0:34:21resolution that takes a hundred because
0:34:23because we're all your aren't you
0:34:25you're gonna feel a little bit that like
0:34:27there's a point where it's just like we
0:34:29have to skip forward like oh yeah two
0:34:31years later
0:34:32yeah it just it seems like the pacing is
0:34:34all off if if this is booked five of
0:34:37seven because we don't have a you know
0:34:40watching that watching the TV show with
0:34:43my wife she's got these expectations
0:34:45about how to eros is gonna come to
0:34:47westeros a-- i'm sitting in she's never
0:34:50gonna come to westeros she's still not
0:34:52in Westeros she may never get to
0:34:53Westeros it's taken forever
0:34:55it's like you know if he can he can
0:34:58spend book six kind of bringing everyone
0:35:00together and then book 7 which could be
0:35:02like you know 4,000 pages finishing the
0:35:05whole thing and tying itself is just a
0:35:07big party except heart one book 7 part 2
0:35:10and exactly like the Harry Potter movies
0:35:13yeah exactly yeah so I don't I think he
0:35:15could do it I don't know if he is
0:35:17disciplined enough to do it because he
0:35:20enjoys writing this stuff that he thinks
0:35:22about all this cool stuff he's like oh
0:35:23this is so cool i need to write about
0:35:25you know two characters that I've never
0:35:27heard of but not have this complicated
0:35:29roster reeling exactly and that's all
0:35:32any it's like he gives he's still
0:35:34unfolding right success without worries
0:35:36about this world is still like
0:35:38propagating in some ways and yet we're
0:35:40at the same time we're all going
0:35:42can you blow rein it in a little bit and
0:35:44sort of focus
0:35:46let's make a circle at least with the
0:35:47brand stuff I felt like brand who has
0:35:49been on a path where they've been
0:35:51taunting us
0:35:52he's been saying oh well together the
0:35:53crow the three-eyed crow all that I feel
0:35:55like we actually got somewhere with that
0:35:57now we're which was good that was that
0:36:00felt like forward motion to me but it
0:36:02just it see it's so strange that and he
0:36:05said you know he's this is we're seeing
0:36:07building as as he goes and he releases
0:36:09the installments but that's just a bad
0:36:11feeling about this that there is no he's
0:36:14gonna it's not two books worth of story
0:36:17that are left user there's a great world
0:36:19but the plot has started to take a
0:36:21backseat to the world building but some
0:36:24of the best characters regular catlin to
0:36:26your point to kill catlin it's shocking
0:36:27and then he makes the point of saying
0:36:29haha but she's not dead she's been
0:36:31resurrected in some way and then we
0:36:33essentially two books go by where she's
0:36:35in one chapter you know right and so
0:36:38what was more
0:36:39what was the point just lurking in the
0:36:41background all will become clear
0:36:43well you'll find out three bucks from
0:36:45now
0:36:46yeah you've got these kids because of
0:36:48key characters and Jamie and this jamie
0:36:49said but they can't all be important at
0:36:51the end right like that yes yes they
0:36:53could you never know Jaime and Brienne
0:36:54are are really interesting important
0:36:56characters they're basically not in this
0:36:58either and then there's something I just
0:37:00feel some frustration that like you've
0:37:01got these really good characters we're
0:37:02basically not seeing them and instead
0:37:04you're introducing me to these new
0:37:07characters like these Ironborn
0:37:09characters and the Dornish characters
0:37:10were conspiring and and they're just not
0:37:12that interesting and so that that's a
0:37:14frustration and you know I appreciate
0:37:16authors trying to prostrate the readers
0:37:18a little bit in order to tell a good
0:37:19story but when you move you know main
0:37:21characters off the board for you know
0:37:23for a decade
0:37:25that's kind of tough and I think I feel
0:37:27like he might feel as though his readers
0:37:30will feel ripped off if the book is you
0:37:32know 400 pages long which I don't think
0:37:35necessarily would be a bad plate
0:37:37I don't know all these books need to be
0:37:38thousand-page long he could tell the
0:37:40story he can stick to the main
0:37:41characters progressing along I'd be fine
0:37:44with that if it was 400 good pages as
0:37:47opposed to a thousand you know overall
0:37:50mostly mediocre pages with you know some
0:37:52good ideas here and some bad pages there
0:37:54I think we'd all be like yeah that's
0:37:56still pretty don't think that's I don't
0:37:58think that's a serious writing
0:37:59analytically and I i think the I i think
0:38:02if he gave you four pages it would be
0:38:03400 pages of the same stuff so you might
0:38:05as well get a thousand out of it because
0:38:07that's but that's the pace that's what
0:38:09it's gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna
0:38:11make it up in volume
0:38:12yeah and just set up the way he's riding
0:38:14slowly but surely i'm not selling these
0:38:17books at a loss on the plus side
0:38:19apparently he has stated publicly that
0:38:21there are no more new POV characters
0:38:24being introduced after this book and all
0:38:26whatever we had what another the
0:38:29freighter comes to be on a helicopter
0:38:31drops a few characters are all my god
0:38:34Jason you're just spoiled the whole
0:38:35knows where his it's an island island
0:38:38moves so any Indian thousand pages of
0:38:42your time invested in this what what do
0:38:47you think what was the what was the
0:38:48verdict about about dance with dragons
0:38:51I'll say I enjoyed it but having now
0:38:54talked about it and realized all the
0:38:56issues I had with it i'm not really in
0:38:59any hurry to go back and really like I
0:39:01thought about rereading this series
0:39:03before because I couldn't remember most
0:39:05of what happened and I thought about
0:39:07that i thought about a little more and I
0:39:09said you know what
0:39:10no I don't there's not enough time I
0:39:12just don't care enough and I think as
0:39:14each book goes on i think it's unlikely
0:39:16i will ever read these books I just kind
0:39:18of wanted to be done
0:39:19I mean I want to be done and done well
0:39:20but i also just kind of wanted to be
0:39:22over at this point
0:39:24yeah I as somebody who you know I'd read
0:39:26the first two books way back when and
0:39:29then reread the entire series this year
0:39:32and it took me something like four or
0:39:34five months to finish all these
0:39:36including dance with dragons and you
0:39:39know they're good stories they're
0:39:42engrossing but when I was you know Glenn
0:39:45was asking if he should read them
0:39:46because he'd never read them and I'm
0:39:47like I have a hard time recommending
0:39:50these books to anybody because it's not
0:39:52I mean it's not that they're they're not
0:39:53well-written and they don't have
0:39:54interesting concepts but I'm like if I
0:39:57if I had spent five months reading you
0:40:00know a lot of other really good fiction
0:40:02what I have been just as happy not
0:40:04having this book in my life and not
0:40:06having this book series in my life and I
0:40:07think unfortunately I think the answer
0:40:09is yes I'm like I'm not sure if there's
0:40:11anything here that I it's got its got
0:40:14into that hardest to recommend point
0:40:15right like a book if you read a book if
0:40:17there's only Booker to you be this is
0:40:19really promising yeah I should tell
0:40:21people read this or if it was you know
0:40:23over and complete and I thought like
0:40:25that you would you would have a full
0:40:26picture of it but right now you're in
0:40:28the middle so it's like right
0:40:29recommending a book to somewhere in the
0:40:30middle of it
0:40:31I don't know how it turns out is in the
0:40:33balance recommending lost at season 4
0:40:36yeah i think the game of films the the
0:40:38whole series now is in this interesting
0:40:40kind of cultural inflection point right
0:40:42because people who would never in a
0:40:45thousand years read fantasy novel are
0:40:48picking up a game of thrones because of
0:40:49the HBO series which i think is great
0:40:51because it opens them up to a new genre
0:40:53but i think on the other hand if I were
0:40:55charged george RR martin i would feel
0:40:57incredible journey thanks
0:40:59rgr driver
0:41:00anybody i would feel an incredible
0:41:04amount of pressure to to you know live
0:41:07up to these people's expectations and I
0:41:09think the first book was the best book
0:41:11out of the the five so far so kind of I
0:41:16don't know it's a tough spot for him to
0:41:18be and of course you know he can cry on
0:41:20giant piles of money but exactly
0:41:22alright and I I think I kind of agree
0:41:25with that this was their parts of it
0:41:27that I really liked and parts of it that
0:41:28I felt frustrated by and I ate reminded
0:41:31me of what i like about the series and
0:41:33it made me think you know again nervous
0:41:35thoughts about the building of this of
0:41:38of the series and how it's gonna get
0:41:39resolved but um but I still like the
0:41:41series about by the next ball be there
0:41:43by the next book 15 minute delay my ear
0:41:46and he's acting like this point throwing
0:41:48it away i mean i threw away through a
0:41:50wheel a time after seven books and I
0:41:53don't regret that but you know who knows
0:41:55that was a smart plan as someone who has
0:41:58read all of them who is my friend keeps
0:42:00trying to convince me like all you have
0:42:01the last ones with the ones have been
0:42:03written by the other guy try and
0:42:04actually pretty good i'm like i'm not
0:42:06going for more books of craft just ate
0:42:08two books that you think are all right
0:42:10with it
0:42:10read some of his original fiction and
0:42:12this is why I don't read the harry
0:42:14potter and harrypotter harrypotter all
0:42:17of those books are energy are enjoyable
0:42:19you know they have some crappy parts but
0:42:22i would say each individual book is
0:42:24light-hearted enough and fun enough that
0:42:26you don't regret reading them i read the
0:42:28first one and I regretted alright so
0:42:30we're going to stop it there
0:42:32we're going to press save on this
0:42:34edition of the incomparable podcast
0:42:36we're going to bring John syracuse it
0:42:38back in and in our next episode we will
0:42:40talk about Patrick Rothfuss 'as sequel
0:42:43to the name of the wind all the wise
0:42:45man's fear but until then I want to
0:42:48thank everybody for listening i want to
0:42:49thank my guest John siracusa serenity
0:42:52Caldwell damn Lauren and Scott McNulty
0:42:54for the uncomfortable podcast I'm Jason
0:42:57Snell we'll see you next time
0:42:59[Music]