The Incomparable

35: The Only Way to Win the Game of Thrones is Not to Play


00:00:00   the Intolerable podcast number 35 2011 [TS]

00:00:11   we are back on the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:00:14   I'm Jason smell your host our topic [TS]

00:00:16   today is the book series that has [TS]

00:00:20   generated the buzz worthy HBO series [TS]

00:00:23   Game of Thrones these are the books by [TS]

00:00:26   george RR martin called a song of ice [TS]

00:00:30   and fire which is such a ridiculous and [TS]

00:00:32   pretentious title that it Five known [TS]

00:00:35   that was the name of the series I might [TS]

00:00:36   not have read the books but instead I've [TS]

00:00:38   read four of them and there's a fifth [TS]

00:00:40   one coming out so we're going to talk [TS]

00:00:42   about the books we will fire off spoiler [TS]

00:00:45   horns inappropriate places but basically [TS]

00:00:47   if you don't want to know what happens [TS]

00:00:48   in these books you might not want to [TS]

00:00:49   listen to this podcast because we are [TS]

00:00:51   going to talk about how can you not [TS]

00:00:53   everybody dies there's your boiler horn [TS]

00:00:57   everybody dies and then he writes poetry [TS]

00:01:00   for a thousand pages that's what happens [TS]

00:01:02   it's the art it's the opposite of that [TS]

00:01:04   doctor who episode everybody lady never [TS]

00:01:06   die [TS]

00:01:07   sighs george RR martin series so anyway [TS]

00:01:10   joining me to talk about george RR [TS]

00:01:12   martin series of books those voices [TS]

00:01:14   you've heard before and you just heard [TS]

00:01:17   and they're like ghosts they that you [TS]

00:01:18   probably hear them when you're not even [TS]

00:01:19   listening to the podcast at this point I [TS]

00:01:21   know I know when I have nightmares [TS]

00:01:23   they're usually narrated by day and more [TS]

00:01:25   in hi dan welcome to your life chasing [TS]

00:01:28   there's no turning back [TS]

00:01:30   donkey citizen Z well I sleep you will [TS]

00:01:35   follow very sinister of serenity [TS]

00:01:38   Caldwell are you acting on your best [TS]

00:01:40   behavior [TS]

00:01:41   I I am don't turn your back on mother [TS]

00:01:44   nature [TS]

00:01:45   no why would I do that I don't know the [TS]

00:01:47   song and everybody wants to rule the [TS]

00:01:49   world except for Scott McNulty he's a [TS]

00:01:52   lover not a fighter [TS]

00:01:53   hi Scott I don't want the world I just [TS]

00:01:56   want your half [TS]

00:01:57   thank you nice right well well done that [TS]

00:02:00   also a band beginning with the letter T [TS]

00:02:02   you could assess it is good friday and [TS]

00:02:06   this lady estea in your record store [TS]

00:02:08   that went out of business five years ago [TS]

00:02:09   so george RR martin [TS]

00:02:12   I was I was that big beard is Diaz these [TS]

00:02:15   dirty and a half she's often wear your [TS]

00:02:17   hat he died i know somebody else wears a [TS]

00:02:21   hat regularly and it's it takes a [TS]

00:02:23   special kind of man to wear a hat i will [TS]

00:02:25   say this i have a picture of myself with [TS]

00:02:28   george RR martin with both of us wearing [TS]

00:02:30   hats [TS]

00:02:31   Oh see you can put that you can put them [TS]

00:02:33   in the show notes great that was that [TS]

00:02:35   one of the Hat clubs [TS]

00:02:37   yes it would say it was a hat convenient [TS]

00:02:39   believe its hat squads have squad [TS]

00:02:42   yes we both have beards too is much more [TS]

00:02:45   impressed yet dad come to think of it [TS]

00:02:46   you could be george RR martin you've [TS]

00:02:47   gotta hide a picture the young George RR [TS]

00:02:50   Martin's time-travel mystic it just [TS]

00:02:52   finished the books we bake trying i love [TS]

00:02:58   me working on it [TS]

00:02:59   so before we get started and before we [TS]

00:03:01   fire up the spoiler home because i want [TS]

00:03:02   at least a little bit of action here [TS]

00:03:04   before we fire off from everybody dies [TS]

00:03:06   yeah you know i'm not going to everybody [TS]

00:03:09   eighty percent of the characters diving [TS]

00:03:11   which eighty percent series the series [TS]

00:03:14   isn't over yet so it may be that [TS]

00:03:15   everything is entirely possible so i [TS]

00:03:18   started reading these books late last [TS]

00:03:19   year when i heard HBO was going to make [TS]

00:03:22   a series out of it [TS]

00:03:23   I don't know if that strange behavior to [TS]

00:03:24   say you know read the books now before [TS]

00:03:26   they become a TV series but they've been [TS]

00:03:28   out there for a long time the first book [TS]

00:03:30   was published in 1996 so I'm wondering [TS]

00:03:32   when did you guys start reading these [TS]

00:03:35   books i have a funny story about how I [TS]

00:03:38   first became aware of these books will [TS]

00:03:40   be the judges that but I have a story [TS]

00:03:42   about the first time is with being where [TS]

00:03:44   these books it was the first week of [TS]

00:03:47   college my freshman year of college and [TS]

00:03:51   one of my floormates now and i went to [TS]

00:03:54   do laundry the dorm across from us and [TS]

00:03:56   there was a girl there reading a game of [TS]

00:03:58   thrones i had never heard of this book [TS]

00:04:00   but my friend brian says oh that's a [TS]

00:04:03   really great book and strikes up a [TS]

00:04:04   conversation with this girl who i then [TS]

00:04:07   went out with for like three months so [TS]

00:04:09   that so george RR martin has had you [TS]

00:04:11   know got me a date basically because you [TS]

00:04:14   because your friend had rather because [TS]

00:04:16   my friend had read it I know I didn't [TS]

00:04:18   even have to do the hard work there and [TS]

00:04:20   to this day dan has not read the books [TS]

00:04:22   anyways that was but I did read them [TS]

00:04:23   like the summer after that [TS]

00:04:24   and I've read them I guess only two [TS]

00:04:28   maybe three red at that point that would [TS]

00:04:29   have been like 1999 I guess maybe only [TS]

00:04:33   to that point but I read the other set [TS]

00:04:36   that as they came out before the fourth [TS]

00:04:38   one came out i reread the first three so [TS]

00:04:41   I guess that was 2005-6 somewhere in [TS]

00:04:44   there so yeah I've read all I've read [TS]

00:04:47   the books twice except for the fourth [TS]

00:04:48   one and and it's still yet it's still [TS]

00:04:51   been like six years since i think i was [TS]

00:04:54   pondering that this very question [TS]

00:04:56   earlier today so i went to amazon and [TS]

00:04:59   search my order history to see if I [TS]

00:05:01   could figure out when i first read a [TS]

00:05:03   game of thrones and turns out I i will i [TS]

00:05:07   ordered the second and third book [TS]

00:05:09   februari third 2003 which leads me to [TS]

00:05:12   believe i read the first book some time [TS]

00:05:14   beforehand because i have no record of [TS]

00:05:17   that book so apparently either got it [TS]

00:05:19   from the library or stole it from [TS]

00:05:20   someone so that it and I have no idea [TS]

00:05:23   why i started reading them but I read [TS]

00:05:26   them in 2003 apparent i read them when i [TS]

00:05:29   read the first one for the first time [TS]

00:05:30   shortly after Dan in two thousand or so [TS]

00:05:33   because the writing group that I was [TS]

00:05:35   part of it at the time I one of our [TS]

00:05:39   members Robin was absolutely obsessed [TS]

00:05:41   with this series and wouldn't stop [TS]

00:05:44   talking about it and in fact I think had [TS]

00:05:46   written to full-length novels in this [TS]

00:05:48   universe and at the time she's like I [TS]

00:05:51   need people to read them and I'm like [TS]

00:05:52   well in order to read your novels I i [TS]

00:05:55   think i probably have to read the story [TS]

00:05:57   that it's based in first so i picked up [TS]

00:06:02   all three from the library at the time [TS]

00:06:04   there were three out it was a storm of [TS]

00:06:06   swords is that the third one [TS]

00:06:08   yes but I get on the the huge one yeah [TS]

00:06:11   well I mean that was that was alongside [TS]

00:06:12   that was the same year that I first [TS]

00:06:15   started reading Robert Jordan as well so [TS]

00:06:17   i was just reading all yeah I know [TS]

00:06:19   I know you can make those faces i was [TS]

00:06:21   reading a lot of terrible fantasy but [TS]

00:06:23   this this was not terrible fantasy this [TS]

00:06:25   was enjoyable fantasy but i have to say [TS]

00:06:27   until right before the HBO series came [TS]

00:06:30   out earlier this year I had not read [TS]

00:06:33   them since I read them straight through [TS]

00:06:36   in about a month in two thousand so I'm [TS]

00:06:39   slowly like going through and reading [TS]

00:06:41   them now and I'm in the middle of the [TS]

00:06:42   second book I'm like I remember none of [TS]

00:06:44   this kind of just vanished from my head [TS]

00:06:47   there's a lot there's a lot there and [TS]

00:06:49   then there's a lot of stuff didn't want [TS]

00:06:51   to people in places and culture and all [TS]

00:06:53   that well [TS]

00:06:54   very i met somewhere that there's a [TS]

00:06:56   thousand named characters in the series [TS]

00:06:58   in the run-up in the run-up to the HPS [TS]

00:07:02   here is going on in a george RR martin [TS]

00:07:04   has said to several interviewers that he [TS]

00:07:07   intended for this to be unfilmable irony [TS]

00:07:12   of ironies that he wanted to make it as [TS]

00:07:14   widescreen as possible and lots of [TS]

00:07:16   different stories of huge numbers of [TS]

00:07:17   characters and complicated and and and [TS]

00:07:20   then you know here they are making a TV [TS]

00:07:22   series happyish owed him [TS]

00:07:24   yeah take that George that was that was [TS]

00:07:26   the one question I i actually asked him [TS]

00:07:28   when when I got a chance to talk to him [TS]

00:07:30   was how he kept track of all of that [TS]

00:07:32   stuff and he didn't really give me a [TS]

00:07:34   good answer is just said he kind of [TS]

00:07:35   looked at me and said that's my job and [TS]

00:07:37   I was like okay but like to use like a [TS]

00:07:39   whiteboard you think computers activate [TS]

00:07:41   what give me something just like to [TS]

00:07:43   think in fact it's a little minion [TS]

00:07:45   sitting there that's just recording [TS]

00:07:47   everything beautifully i just came up [TS]

00:07:48   with a new character right now he does [TS]

00:07:50   have a minion actually don't that was [TS]

00:07:51   the story in The New Yorker wasn't it [TS]

00:07:53   that there's a guy who runs a wiki and [TS]

00:07:55   has a database and he's in like Sweden [TS]

00:07:58   or something [TS]

00:07:59   yes some Scandinavian country [TS]

00:08:02   yeah we're with her is always coming and [TS]

00:08:05   and he liked apparently now is actually [TS]

00:08:08   a paid sort of like how they have script [TS]

00:08:11   coordinators on TV series he's like the [TS]

00:08:13   a paid assistant to george RR martin for [TS]

00:08:16   these reasons you like send them [TS]

00:08:17   questions of like who's this cruise this [TS]

00:08:20   guy and a guy will immediately respond [TS]

00:08:22   with the answer because he knows he's [TS]

00:08:23   encyclopedia CLE catalog everything in [TS]

00:08:26   all the books so he's like the guy on [TS]

00:08:27   lost [TS]

00:08:28   he's exactly like Greg nations the guy [TS]

00:08:30   are lost who has the Bible of F [TS]

00:08:33   everybody and who what time they did [TS]

00:08:34   what I'm loss so they could do all the [TS]

00:08:36   time travel stuff [TS]

00:08:38   yeah he is the george RR martin has that [TS]

00:08:40   guy minion any one of those yeah it's [TS]

00:08:44   good to have a minion if you can afford [TS]

00:08:45   one [TS]

00:08:46   what would your minion do though Dan [TS]

00:08:48   really don't know I need like I totally [TS]

00:08:50   for a long time in one of my the series [TS]

00:08:53   i was writing i had like a voodoo ped [TS]

00:08:55   document so it's kind of like a mini [TS]

00:08:56   wiki to keep track of [TS]

00:08:58   because I would forget like a character [TS]

00:08:59   that i mentioned you know early in one [TS]

00:09:02   story would return and I couldn't [TS]

00:09:03   remember what color their hair my eyes [TS]

00:09:06   or something dumb like that now be like [TS]

00:09:08   aqua have to go back through the whole [TS]

00:09:09   like last book and try to like search [TS]

00:09:11   through and find out what I used [TS]

00:09:12   Scrivener for it's the same it's the [TS]

00:09:14   same thing i was i have to say the [TS]

00:09:15   people who do these george RR martin [TS]

00:09:17   wiki's are laying down on the job [TS]

00:09:18   because I am in the fourth book which i [TS]

00:09:21   just finished there's a character who's [TS]

00:09:25   in several previous books raff the [TS]

00:09:26   sweetling and I was like hey he's just [TS]

00:09:28   sort of like tangentially briefly [TS]

00:09:30   mentioned they send them off somewhere [TS]

00:09:31   and I went and looked up his with his [TS]

00:09:33   george RR martin wiki page and there's [TS]

00:09:37   no mention that he's mentioned in that [TS]

00:09:38   book anywhere it's like come on you [TS]

00:09:41   encyclopedia of fans you're laying down [TS]

00:09:43   on the job here that just means you [TS]

00:09:45   better sign up for an account righteous [TS]

00:09:47   yeah I really don't want to do that [TS]

00:09:49   although I couldn't balance on the [TS]

00:09:50   internet someone that you know it's got [TS]

00:09:53   to be that way lies met it is it is that [TS]

00:09:55   way like we're either that or one guy [TS]

00:09:57   gets to be paid by george RR martin but [TS]

00:10:00   everybody else is just mad so so we [TS]

00:10:04   should talk a little bit about the [TS]

00:10:07   setting for these these books I i think [TS]

00:10:09   one of the things that attracted me in [TS]

00:10:11   addition to the fact that HBO is going [TS]

00:10:12   to be making this into a series [TS]

00:10:14   attracted me to the series that I've [TS]

00:10:15   heard that it was like fantasy books but [TS]

00:10:17   not like your kind of stereotypical you [TS]

00:10:21   know wizards and witchcraft kind of kind [TS]

00:10:25   of & Dragons kind of fantasy bug and it [TS]

00:10:28   turns out that there are dragons and [TS]

00:10:30   there is magic but it's it's not a lot [TS]

00:10:33   but not a lot right i mean the first [TS]

00:10:35   look you get hints of dragons but even [TS]

00:10:38   then they're they're extinct [TS]

00:10:40   yeah exactly it's really more medieval [TS]

00:10:42   fiction that it [TS]

00:10:43   is right i mean you get the Dragons at [TS]

00:10:45   the end in sort of the the others at the [TS]

00:10:47   beginning and those sort of bookend it [TS]

00:10:49   but in between there really isn't much [TS]

00:10:51   so it's politics and violence and sex [TS]

00:10:53   and and back-slapping and things like [TS]

00:10:56   that which is is you know he'll be [TS]

00:10:57   anything but like little bit like the [TS]

00:10:59   wire [TS]

00:11:00   yes exactly medieval wire that's yes [TS]

00:11:04   well I have level you know the TV series [TS]

00:11:06   is a lot like the wire to and in that [TS]

00:11:08   it's complicated know lots of characters [TS]

00:11:10   but you know the wire screen [TS]

00:11:12   yeah well and again there they haven't [TS]

00:11:14   done much other than sort of you know [TS]

00:11:16   like yeah there's only that little bit [TS]

00:11:18   in the later books there become sort of [TS]

00:11:20   more of an influence of the magic coming [TS]

00:11:23   right but definitely that first book I [TS]

00:11:25   mean I i remember reading through and [TS]

00:11:26   thinking wow yeah there's there's really [TS]

00:11:28   not like beyond that sort of prologue if [TS]

00:11:30   you sort of forget about that it only [TS]

00:11:31   becomes a vacant after then people [TS]

00:11:35   talking about oh yeah there's some bad [TS]

00:11:37   you know crazy dudes up in the North or [TS]

00:11:39   whatever else not really worried about [TS]

00:11:41   that will even with the crazy dudes in [TS]

00:11:42   the North me with the others all you [TS]

00:11:44   really see me you get like the blue eyes [TS]

00:11:45   and the white hair and the crazy thing [TS]

00:11:47   but you don't really get the sense that [TS]

00:11:49   there anything other than savages you [TS]

00:11:51   know I mean there's a sort of mystique [TS]

00:11:53   to it but you could roll that off as [TS]

00:11:54   just ok these are just crazy warriors [TS]

00:11:57   who haven't lived among civilization [TS]

00:11:58   four years I mean like it seems pretty [TS]

00:12:00   clear that there's something to do with [TS]

00:12:02   like the Dead coming back so there's [TS]

00:12:03   there's definitely I think an element of [TS]

00:12:05   the other letter is it supposed to say [TS]

00:12:07   the Wildings yeah I guess towards the [TS]

00:12:09   end of the book barrel but the well we [TS]

00:12:10   have the wildlings are just feral right [TS]

00:12:13   so we should we fire up the spoiler [TS]

00:12:16   warning now [TS]

00:12:19   one of the things that's most striking I [TS]

00:12:21   think about these books and iĆ­ve been [TS]

00:12:24   reliving it as I've been watching the [TS]

00:12:26   the HBO series is poised RR martin is [TS]

00:12:30   not he admitted in one of these articles [TS]

00:12:33   that preceded the show coming on that [TS]

00:12:37   he's playing a shell game in the first [TS]

00:12:39   book that he he intends for you to [TS]

00:12:42   assume who the main characters are and [TS]

00:12:45   it's very clear you know Ned Stark is [TS]

00:12:47   the main character in the game of [TS]

00:12:48   thrones and so it's all the more [TS]

00:12:51   shocking when they chop his head off [TS]

00:12:53   I hope someone told Shawn being ahead of [TS]

00:12:55   time i'll see if i seasoned veteran some [TS]

00:12:57   unpleasant aspects i'm not in the second [TS]

00:13:00   season while back and he signed a [TS]

00:13:01   one-year contract [TS]

00:13:02   yeah unless they change huge tapestry of [TS]

00:13:06   characters and I mean that was the thing [TS]

00:13:07   that was described to me in terms of [TS]

00:13:09   like why this was its series that was so [TS]

00:13:12   different from any other series which [TS]

00:13:13   was my friend sort of telling this me [TS]

00:13:15   going well the thing about this series [TS]

00:13:16   is like they put people into impossible [TS]

00:13:19   situations you're like how are they ever [TS]

00:13:20   going to escape that and then they don't [TS]

00:13:22   right right so so you know the it turns [TS]

00:13:28   out that the main characters in the [TS]

00:13:30   series are are like like re s dark the [TS]

00:13:36   daughter of Ned Stark and jon snow it's [TS]

00:13:38   like the stark children are our main [TS]

00:13:41   character ones that survived once that [TS]

00:13:43   survived right [TS]

00:13:45   not all of them do and um and then you [TS]

00:13:49   know Tyrion Lannister and and and some [TS]

00:13:51   of the Lannisters who are the bad [TS]

00:13:52   characters although some of them end up [TS]

00:13:54   being good characters or at least [TS]

00:13:56   interesting not entirely evil characters [TS]

00:13:58   later ray they're complicated which is [TS]

00:14:01   one of the one of the good things about [TS]

00:14:02   these books is that you've got people [TS]

00:14:04   who you like who do bad things and [TS]

00:14:05   people who don't like who do good things [TS]

00:14:07   and it is a mess and not clear like [TS]

00:14:11   going into this I was thinking about how [TS]

00:14:12   you know I was sort of going through [TS]

00:14:14   what I remember from the books and and [TS]

00:14:15   remembering that one of my life i can [TS]

00:14:18   call on one of my favorite characters [TS]

00:14:19   but like one of the characters that [TS]

00:14:21   intrigues me the most is from at the [TS]

00:14:24   beginning of the series is like the most [TS]

00:14:26   despicable person in the book is Jaime [TS]

00:14:29   Lannister like throws a kid out the [TS]

00:14:31   window like you don't [TS]

00:14:33   much worse than that right but he did it [TS]

00:14:35   because he loved and sisters things he [TS]

00:14:37   does for a little 2morrow is the real [TS]

00:14:39   despicable character but like as the [TS]

00:14:41   series goes on i mean like he becomes a [TS]

00:14:44   little more human and a little less like [TS]

00:14:46   evil villainy right like you know he [TS]

00:14:48   loses his hand when the later books we [TS]

00:14:50   can't he's no longer able to be the sort [TS]

00:14:52   of great warrior [TS]

00:14:53   you also get into his head you know yes [TS]

00:14:55   yeah he becomes a protest a narrow [TS]

00:14:57   viewpoint characters well which which [TS]

00:14:59   does change your opinion of him and you [TS]

00:15:02   learn some stuff about his past about [TS]

00:15:03   things that he's done that's been sort [TS]

00:15:05   of assumed to be terrible terrible acts [TS]

00:15:07   that may have had different motivations [TS]

00:15:09   and he has this very interesting [TS]

00:15:10   relationship for a while with this woman [TS]

00:15:11   breanne yes I made of Tarth which brings [TS]

00:15:14   out a lot of humanity in him that is [TS]

00:15:17   previously lacking and I kind of a kind [TS]

00:15:19   of dug that and of course the other [TS]

00:15:20   character I like kinda from the get-go [TS]

00:15:21   even though here you're never quite sure [TS]

00:15:23   where you where he stands as Theriot man [TS]

00:15:25   who is also considered maybe a villain [TS]

00:15:27   but he's also kind of a good guy in some [TS]

00:15:29   ways like he's probably one of the more [TS]

00:15:30   sympathetic character he never strikes [TS]

00:15:32   me as a villain he always strikes me I [TS]

00:15:35   mean to think about Tyrion Lannister [TS]

00:15:36   which such great character when I heard [TS]

00:15:37   that peter dinklage was going to be [TS]

00:15:38   playing always be a little break so up [TS]

00:15:41   Tyrion Lannister such a great character [TS]

00:15:43   but he's always you know he's got this [TS]

00:15:47   interesting combination of being very [TS]

00:15:49   well aware of of of his place in the [TS]

00:15:53   world and everybody's placed in the [TS]

00:15:54   world and in a way that a lot of the [TS]

00:15:56   other characters aren't but at the same [TS]

00:15:58   time being loyal to his family in the [TS]

00:16:02   way he sort of defines but it's [TS]

00:16:04   fascinating because the his family's [TS]

00:16:06   basically bad they're bad people and we [TS]

00:16:09   don't like them and and so you like him [TS]

00:16:11   and you're like well i like this guy [TS]

00:16:13   he's a guy could root for but he's loyal [TS]

00:16:15   to his family which means he does some [TS]

00:16:17   stuff that you that you would really [TS]

00:16:18   rather not see him do but the reason he [TS]

00:16:20   does it is because he's still a [TS]

00:16:22   Lannister and he does feel like he's got [TS]

00:16:25   this obligation up to a point any way up [TS]

00:16:27   to the point where he shoots his father [TS]

00:16:29   down the toilet and kills him love he [TS]

00:16:32   has this feeling the thing i love about [TS]

00:16:34   Tyrion though is that he's Frank and [TS]

00:16:37   he's not you know you don't you don't [TS]

00:16:38   get that hidden from it you know from [TS]

00:16:40   the get-go that he's loyal to his family [TS]

00:16:41   and he pretty much says it straight out [TS]

00:16:43   I think it's like the second or third [TS]

00:16:44   chapter [TS]

00:16:45   where where he's at the stark residence [TS]

00:16:47   and and Jamie like something about you [TS]

00:16:50   know [TS]

00:16:51   oh I hope I hope you're not planning on [TS]

00:16:53   you know doing this is like well why [TS]

00:16:54   would I ever betray my family you I mean [TS]

00:16:57   you get these clues from him from the [TS]

00:16:58   get-go and he's and completely Frank [TS]

00:17:01   every way I mean he's loyal to his [TS]

00:17:03   family in a way that doesn't necessarily [TS]

00:17:04   mean that he's blind loyalty to the [TS]

00:17:06   members of his family like I think [TS]

00:17:08   there's a greater he's got something [TS]

00:17:10   bigger at stake there right yeah the [TS]

00:17:11   reputation the honor of that house and [TS]

00:17:13   hehe really protects that even when the [TS]

00:17:16   people he thinks our dishonouring it are [TS]

00:17:17   the people in his family like his sister [TS]

00:17:20   or his father but the interesting setup [TS]

00:17:22   is is that you've got the War of the [TS]

00:17:24   five kings and it looks as if the [TS]

00:17:27   Lannisters and and Joffrey whoever you [TS]

00:17:30   know at that point you hate him and he's [TS]

00:17:32   and he's done all these horrible things [TS]

00:17:33   and he's ordered that you know you [TS]

00:17:35   ordered the execution of of Ned after a [TS]

00:17:38   deal was brokered by his mother to just [TS]

00:17:41   send them to the wall all these terrible [TS]

00:17:43   things and you're thinking alright [TS]

00:17:44   though the Lannisters are going to get [TS]

00:17:46   it [TS]

00:17:47   auntie reham basically outsmarts [TS]

00:17:49   everybody else and saves the day and its [TS]

00:17:51   really you're in this weird position [TS]

00:17:52   where you're rooting for the guy because [TS]

00:17:54   he is such an interesting character [TS]

00:17:56   esmart you want him to do you know do is [TS]

00:17:59   kind of well as an underdog right now [TS]

00:18:01   right except for traditional what he's [TS]

00:18:02   doing is protecting these horrible [TS]

00:18:04   people and you kinda wanna be like come [TS]

00:18:07   on [TS]

00:18:08   but at the same time you know he has [TS]

00:18:10   this code which makes them interesting i [TS]

00:18:12   also love you know and even in the first [TS]

00:18:14   couple episodes of the TV show they [TS]

00:18:16   really bring out the sort of great he's [TS]

00:18:18   got a confidence that it seems like a [TS]

00:18:20   lot of people in the show [TS]

00:18:21   whack you know he talks about that my [TS]

00:18:23   love that line the Utopia all dwarves [TS]

00:18:25   are bastards in the eyes of their [TS]

00:18:27   fathers just such a such a great like he [TS]

00:18:31   knows exactly how other people see me [TS]

00:18:33   also tells john snow at some point like [TS]

00:18:35   hey you know embrace what you are [TS]

00:18:38   because it's not going to go away and [TS]

00:18:40   the sooner you're more comfortable with [TS]

00:18:41   it like a better off you'll be [TS]

00:18:44   I think it's just very he's got he's a [TS]

00:18:46   very smart guy and I clearly he's worked [TS]

00:18:48   hard to become that it's like it's like [TS]

00:18:51   a it's like a little bit like a miles [TS]

00:18:53   workers again is exactly that's the [TS]

00:18:55   first person I thought of when i was [TS]

00:18:56   reading this [TS]

00:18:57   that's why Scott hates t really did one [TS]

00:19:02   of the interesting things about the [TS]

00:19:04   first book is this split storyline we're [TS]

00:19:07   really in parallel with almost no [TS]

00:19:11   crossover slight crossover you've got a [TS]

00:19:14   daenerys targaryen and her adventures in [TS]

00:19:17   the desert where her brother basically [TS]

00:19:19   sells her to the warlord of the horse [TS]

00:19:24   people and and yet and if you haven't [TS]

00:19:28   read this series it's not quite as weird [TS]

00:19:30   as it sounds [TS]

00:19:30   no we're not actually a horse people [TS]

00:19:32   know they're not happen address there [TS]

00:19:34   like people here on horses so pretty [TS]

00:19:37   weird though it is kinda weird [TS]

00:19:39   yeah and she you know her brother has no [TS]

00:19:42   care and he basically sells her in order [TS]

00:19:45   to get the idea is to get this army of [TS]

00:19:47   people to take back their their crown [TS]

00:19:50   which has been usurped across the sea [TS]

00:19:53   and you know there's some great stuff in [TS]

00:19:56   there because she actually kind of comes [TS]

00:19:59   of age and in the end she sort of like [TS]

00:20:00   the last one standing interns in terms [TS]

00:20:02   of she you know she's the queen of the [TS]

00:20:05   well the horse people except there are [TS]

00:20:09   many of them left after a while you know [TS]

00:20:11   it but she's kind of empowered and she's [TS]

00:20:13   got these dragon eggs that she throws in [TS]

00:20:15   the fire and the hatch and then she's [TS]

00:20:16   got dragons so it's very clear that [TS]

00:20:18   she's in the long run [TS]

00:20:20   you know one of the major characters if [TS]

00:20:21   not the most important character in the [TS]

00:20:23   books but in the first in the first book [TS]

00:20:25   and really for a while she's just in a [TS]

00:20:28   parallel story with there's white one [TS]

00:20:29   character and then eventually I think [TS]

00:20:31   there are two characters across over [TS]

00:20:33   between her story and everybody else I [TS]

00:20:35   mean she's on the other side of the [TS]

00:20:37   Narrow Sea and the Narrow Sea can't be [TS]

00:20:38   crossed by anything except ships and [TS]

00:20:40   they don't have ships so why would such [TS]

00:20:42   narrow sea before now you won't go on [TS]

00:20:45   and I know whenever the others when you [TS]

00:20:48   when you wanna cross the sea you of [TS]

00:20:50   course need to get 10,000 mounted [TS]

00:20:52   warriors because that makes perfect [TS]

00:20:55   sense [TS]

00:20:55   all I could say is they can probably see [TS]

00:20:57   Westeros from their house probably the [TS]

00:21:00   thing i love about Denarius though is [TS]

00:21:03   that she starts off that first book as [TS]

00:21:05   so like almost completely innocent to a [TS]

00:21:08   certain extent [TS]

00:21:09   like you have you have her brother [TS]

00:21:11   basically bullying her and I the the [TS]

00:21:13   phrase don't wake that you don't want to [TS]

00:21:14   wait the dragon do you that that kind of [TS]

00:21:16   chills down my spine the first time I [TS]

00:21:18   read it to my gosh shoot this does not [TS]

00:21:20   bode well for for this character bad [TS]

00:21:23   things are happening and then she [TS]

00:21:24   basically gets l2 yeah the warlord [TS]

00:21:26   horselord who basically rapes her [TS]

00:21:29   yep yep and I mean she she she takes [TS]

00:21:33   such as marvelous transition between [TS]

00:21:34   scared girl who's just wants to go back [TS]

00:21:38   to the the house with the red door that [TS]

00:21:39   she lived in for a couple years where [TS]

00:21:41   she thought she was happy to this to a [TS]

00:21:44   queen in her own right and its really [TS]

00:21:45   really fascinating to read that [TS]

00:21:47   especially nice first through everything [TS]

00:21:48   else [TS]

00:21:49   despite that I could never quite figure [TS]

00:21:51   out if I like her not she definitely is [TS]

00:21:53   like you know I i agree that the her [TS]

00:21:55   transition is really interesting and [TS]

00:21:57   like she definitely becomes a very [TS]

00:21:58   empowered figure especially towards the [TS]

00:22:00   later books where she's really like [TS]

00:22:02   learning how to you know wield that [TS]

00:22:05   power authority but she's and she's very [TS]

00:22:09   ruthless to a certain point but at the [TS]

00:22:12   same time you know I can't quite get a [TS]

00:22:14   sense of whether or not i find her a [TS]

00:22:15   likeable character you know I think the [TS]

00:22:18   most likable I found her was the first [TS]

00:22:20   chapter of the first book and then as [TS]

00:22:23   chic as she grows colder as she grows [TS]

00:22:26   stronger and more the more she goes into [TS]

00:22:29   this sort of you know Queen queenly [TS]

00:22:31   attitude the farther away you get from [TS]

00:22:33   this person could ever be likable [TS]

00:22:35   because you never really seen her head [TS]

00:22:37   after that especially after the whole [TS]

00:22:39   incident with the fire on the Dragons I [TS]

00:22:41   think that's the last point where you [TS]

00:22:42   ever really see what's kind of going on [TS]

00:22:45   for her personally and not what's going [TS]

00:22:47   on for her as a larger scope it's got [TS]

00:22:50   that at that moment she was reborn into [TS]

00:22:53   her birthright right as a dragon [TS]

00:22:55   controlling monarch i guess and so she [TS]

00:22:58   transforms from that innocent child much [TS]

00:23:01   like the Petrified eggs were hatched [TS]

00:23:03   into dragons haha very nice aesthetic i [TS]

00:23:06   like that i like having this degree [TS]

00:23:08   Bravo sir they do you know obviously the [TS]

00:23:12   song of ice and fire which again you [TS]

00:23:14   know is i see why it's called that but [TS]

00:23:16   it's it's a little bit silly but clearly [TS]

00:23:19   that sacrifice and that it over with [TS]

00:23:21   clearly the overarching story here is [TS]

00:23:23   that the the battle the battle is [TS]

00:23:25   between the Dragonlords and fire and [TS]

00:23:30   they seem to be the Dragon seem to be [TS]

00:23:31   the only thing that can stop the others [TS]

00:23:33   the dragonglass and the fire from [TS]

00:23:35   dragons and so you've got this sort of a [TS]

00:23:38   conflict building and then on top of it [TS]

00:23:42   right there there's also the whole I [TS]

00:23:46   like this like the red fiery God yet [TS]

00:23:51   didn't whose name I can't pronounce real [TS]

00:23:52   or yeah the gods always have weird names [TS]

00:23:56   and fantasy series because they're their [TS]

00:23:58   gods yeah it Bob would not be a scary [TS]

00:24:01   yeah they don't want you to be able to [TS]

00:24:02   print out all the ones I Californians [TS]

00:24:04   and and double consonants and yeah it's [TS]

00:24:07   a glottal that's basically like a [TS]

00:24:09   Romulan broccoli god yeah that would be [TS]

00:24:13   that would be such a twist ending we [TS]

00:24:15   have been turning up the whole Klingon [TS]

00:24:17   so so that and that's actually for me [TS]

00:24:20   that's one of the weirder things is not [TS]

00:24:21   i mean the whole idea of the dragons and [TS]

00:24:23   the heat of the dragons in these ice [TS]

00:24:24   guy's monster creature things the others [TS]

00:24:27   that are coming from the north as winter [TS]

00:24:29   comes I I i see where he's going with [TS]

00:24:31   that and and it's interesting because [TS]

00:24:33   for a while you're rooting for the you [TS]

00:24:35   know you're like oh no not the Targaryen [TS]

00:24:37   there they're bad and they kicked out [TS]

00:24:38   the crazy king and and and but it's [TS]

00:24:41   clear where this is going which is that [TS]

00:24:43   that you know the nearest and her [TS]

00:24:45   dragons are are the thing that's gonna [TS]

00:24:47   save them it you know theoretically but [TS]

00:24:51   the red the red priests and the end and [TS]

00:24:54   the and Melisandre the red woman who and [TS]

00:24:58   the fact that they're like you know [TS]

00:24:59   kings who just died just dropped dead [TS]

00:25:03   because of the red godz magic it's that [TS]

00:25:08   stuff always struck me as being really [TS]

00:25:09   bizarre because I I always just sort of [TS]

00:25:11   wrote it off as i was reading it as [TS]

00:25:13   being like Oh silly silly magic that [TS]

00:25:15   won't do anything and then you know [TS]

00:25:16   various kings just drop dead [TS]

00:25:20   yeah that was the point at which it like [TS]

00:25:22   you know I felt like the series move [TS]

00:25:23   more into the traditional fantasy realm [TS]

00:25:26   and I and in some ways I was kind of [TS]

00:25:27   disappointed with that transition [TS]

00:25:28   because I'd really enjoyed the sort of [TS]

00:25:31   non magical atmosphere up to that point [TS]

00:25:32   and also because I [TS]

00:25:35   I think one of the other sort of [TS]

00:25:37   sympathetic characters introduced in [TS]

00:25:39   conflict with the red priestess which is [TS]

00:25:42   a devil's oh yeah i like his music yeah [TS]

00:25:46   he's a likable guy he's also wanted to [TS]

00:25:48   sort of more honorable characters out [TS]

00:25:51   there i mean because I mean I guess you [TS]

00:25:53   can you can argue that Stannis Baratheon [TS]

00:25:55   is kind of honorable but he's also kinda [TS]

00:25:56   got a stick up his ass [TS]

00:25:58   it gets kind of taken over to ya [TS]

00:26:01   and so I mean like having that in there [TS]

00:26:03   you know it [TS]

00:26:04   II it's not feel very conflicted about [TS]

00:26:06   that as a plot development but i guess [TS]

00:26:09   it remains to be seen whether they where [TS]

00:26:11   it's sort of where it's art will lead it [TS]

00:26:13   yeah I you know that thing when they [TS]

00:26:15   curse all the other Kings right and all [TS]

00:26:17   the other Kings die but what what what [TS]

00:26:22   is weird is that some of them died in a [TS]

00:26:24   mysterious way right and readily get [TS]

00:26:27   stabbed by a shadow right really is [TS]

00:26:28   killed by shadow and and Joffrey just [TS]

00:26:31   sort of like randomly chokes on nothing [TS]

00:26:34   well he gets poisoned it doesn't get [TS]

00:26:36   poisoned or do they just think he good [TS]

00:26:38   I feel like it's poisoned by the same [TS]

00:26:40   thing that I'm the what's-his-face Jon [TS]

00:26:43   Arryn I'm not well Jon Arryn yeah the [TS]

00:26:46   tears of the tears of lys or lies or [TS]

00:26:49   have to say it but doesn't mean I wasn't [TS]

00:26:51   sorry i just reread a lot of the sort of [TS]

00:26:54   overviews before this to sort of refresh [TS]

00:26:56   myself and they suggest that [TS]

00:26:57   Littlefinger had a hand in in killing [TS]

00:27:00   Joffrey when I read it I i thought you [TS]

00:27:02   know our is it that they think that [TS]

00:27:05   that's what happened or did that [TS]

00:27:06   actually happen right is it that they [TS]

00:27:08   don't get excited when they set up to [TS]

00:27:11   poison him except it didn't it he got [TS]

00:27:13   killed by the magic for my for some [TS]

00:27:15   great but my point is that that the even [TS]

00:27:16   that and then certainly what happens at [TS]

00:27:18   the red wedding with with Robb Stark [TS]

00:27:20   I'm a little out of control measure [TS]

00:27:22   those are yeah those are plausibly be [TS]

00:27:24   like well maybe it's bad luck or maybe [TS]

00:27:26   it was a curse but like murdered by [TS]

00:27:28   shadow it's just like wow [TS]

00:27:31   because I also the guy in the iron the [TS]

00:27:33   Ironborn you know that the King bail or [TS]

00:27:36   Greyjoy [TS]

00:27:37   yeah Greyjoy hehe like falls off a [TS]

00:27:39   bridge or something until you killed by [TS]

00:27:42   a shadow looks terrible on homicide [TS]

00:27:44   report by the way yeah def by shadow [TS]

00:27:46   detective general plan [TS]

00:27:48   shadow it makes kind of sense though [TS]

00:27:50   because I mean Renly is his younger [TS]

00:27:51   brother and it makes sense that of all [TS]

00:27:54   of them she would have a direct hand in [TS]

00:27:56   killing him and the others may be [TS]

00:27:58   coincidence but she can write it off as [TS]

00:28:00   oh yes well I did this I did this in the [TS]

00:28:02   red God answered my prayers [TS]

00:28:04   yes that's exactly what happens oh and I [TS]

00:28:06   also killed you younger brother did [TS]

00:28:08   anybody did anybody else when reading [TS]

00:28:10   the books get the subtext of the fact [TS]

00:28:12   that readily is gay and loves the knight [TS]

00:28:15   of flowers [TS]

00:28:16   well if you don't get in the books [TS]

00:28:18   you'll certainly get it need you know [TS]

00:28:19   you're in the TV series it is clear but [TS]

00:28:23   although afterwards I went back and I [TS]

00:28:25   was like oh yeah the rainbow guard huh [TS]

00:28:27   yeah and when the nighty knight of [TS]

00:28:32   flowers is kind of a pretty boy and yeah [TS]

00:28:35   yeah the HBO series makes it quite clear [TS]

00:28:38   that that that Renly and actually [TS]

00:28:40   reading piece a feast for crows there [TS]

00:28:44   are several scenes where I realize that [TS]

00:28:46   it's totally there all along and I just [TS]

00:28:48   totally just passed over it and didn't [TS]

00:28:50   notice all the subtext of how so lorises [TS]

00:28:53   not not interested in the ladies except [TS]

00:28:56   for San soon he was kind of I seems kind [TS]

00:28:59   of like an ascetic you know [TS]

00:29:01   no not well I don't it's been way too [TS]

00:29:04   long since i've read the books I i [TS]

00:29:06   create the HBO series will make it [TS]

00:29:08   abundantly clear that abundantly so I [TS]

00:29:13   don't understand what's going on its [TS]

00:29:14   various guys ignore it yes the night of [TS]

00:29:16   our flowers very pretty armor that's not [TS]

00:29:18   what I'm saying he's a good chance that [TS]

00:29:21   he was he was bluffing his armor for him [TS]

00:29:23   exactly and advising advising him on how [TS]

00:29:26   to be a good king [TS]

00:29:27   sadly he will be killed by shadow that [TS]

00:29:30   that is the trouble I have with watching [TS]

00:29:32   the TV show is knowing all the awful [TS]

00:29:34   things are going to happen oh man I know [TS]

00:29:36   x 0 2 you're watching like Kaitlyn [TS]

00:29:38   you're like all mad [TS]

00:29:40   oh yeah catlin sure like oh man this is [TS]

00:29:42   gonna go bad that was the most shocking [TS]

00:29:44   even more than Ned that was the most [TS]

00:29:45   shocking death in the entire series and [TS]

00:29:47   then even more shocking to put it in [TS]

00:29:49   quotes yeah well even more shocking than [TS]

00:29:51   killing her is that then they record [TS]

00:29:52   resurrector is like a half zombie [TS]

00:29:54   version of fresh oh yeah [TS]

00:29:57   exactly it's unclear well her throat is [TS]

00:30:00   still cut so I mean you have that if [TS]

00:30:03   nothing else and one another topic I [TS]

00:30:06   wanted to bring up is that the [TS]

00:30:08   direwolves which are introduced the very [TS]

00:30:10   beginning and there's one for each stark [TS]

00:30:12   child and it turns out that several of [TS]

00:30:15   the star children have this connection [TS]

00:30:17   with them which is most I think it's [TS]

00:30:19   most clear and brand who ends up even [TS]

00:30:21   though we can't walk he's got this you [TS]

00:30:23   know vision and and he's proceeding [TS]

00:30:25   north of the wall to speak to us to the [TS]

00:30:28   three-eyed crow or something like that [TS]

00:30:29   and John and and jon snow has this [TS]

00:30:33   ability to worry sort of bonded with [TS]

00:30:34   this dire wolf and area an area to write [TS]

00:30:37   even though even though hers disappears [TS]

00:30:39   fairly early on but it and yet its [TS]

00:30:42   present throughout because they keep on [TS]

00:30:44   wondering around through the Riverlands [TS]

00:30:45   in the lake man there's lots of wolves [TS]

00:30:47   around here in a big 12 and it's very [TS]

00:30:49   clear that that's her direwolf surprise [TS]

00:30:51   surprise that you never see it it's just [TS]

00:30:54   out pci author out that she's one of my [TS]

00:30:56   other favorite care i love re also [TS]

00:30:57   because she's actually that like one [TS]

00:31:00   legitimately like innocent like victim [TS]

00:31:02   basic licking all this and and she but [TS]

00:31:04   she also kicks a switch here right [TS]

00:31:06   what I appreciate is that she's capable [TS]

00:31:08   without being superhuman you know it's [TS]

00:31:10   like she still she still has bad things [TS]

00:31:12   happen to her and she still gets in bad [TS]

00:31:14   situations but she manages to pull [TS]

00:31:17   through and use what little training she [TS]

00:31:19   has without make me her you know [TS]

00:31:21   oh I've had you know six months worth of [TS]

00:31:23   dancing lessons therefore i'm a master [TS]

00:31:25   of the tiny sword [TS]

00:31:26   yeah i got sad when they said they put [TS]

00:31:29   her on the boat to she ended up on the [TS]

00:31:30   boat to what Bravo sir whatever nose [TS]

00:31:32   like now you're taking her further away [TS]

00:31:33   from everything that's or is she closer [TS]

00:31:37   who she's farther away she she would [TS]

00:31:40   meet Samwell Tarly at one point is that [TS]

00:31:43   it's in that fourth book who I like [TS]

00:31:45   Samwell Tarly he said well Charlie [TS]

00:31:47   that's a great carrying the fat coward [TS]

00:31:49   yeah but he's smart it's like it's like [TS]

00:31:52   I'm in the book because it's like Sam [TS]

00:31:55   Gamgee I is it wrong that I picture him [TS]

00:31:58   as sam from lord of the ring now I [TS]

00:32:00   totally Sean ass on a steel you [TS]

00:32:02   absolutely do that was the first thing [TS]

00:32:04   it's awful to say to compare it to [TS]

00:32:07   another character but it has to be [TS]

00:32:09   intentional well there are several other [TS]

00:32:11   references yeah in i think the only [TS]

00:32:13   other things that came across the [TS]

00:32:14   Wikipedia entries like there are several [TS]

00:32:16   references to the wheel of time like [TS]

00:32:19   there's even there's like a character [TS]

00:32:20   named like like something from an [TS]

00:32:23   anagram of like robert jordan or [TS]

00:32:24   something [TS]

00:32:25   I it's just one of their lives there so [TS]

00:32:27   Maj in there to other two other [TS]

00:32:29   fantasies that's that's why I can't [TS]

00:32:31   stand the whole red God stuff is that it [TS]

00:32:33   reminds me too much of wheel of time in [TS]

00:32:36   parts like the ace today and like stuff [TS]

00:32:38   like that with the with the red pieces [TS]

00:32:39   and I'm like I this I really hope it [TS]

00:32:42   doesn't go that direction not not having [TS]

00:32:45   read the fourth book and only skimmed [TS]

00:32:47   the wikipedia entry for this podcast [TS]

00:32:49   well and that's something actually want [TS]

00:32:52   to ask you as yet because I mean this is [TS]

00:32:54   always the danger especially with [TS]

00:32:55   lifelong fantasy series is we're in the [TS]

00:32:57   middle right like and and Martin is [TS]

00:33:00   delayed a number of the books including [TS]

00:33:02   the most recent 1i mean this is the [TS]

00:33:04   first book and again what 687 hear me [TS]

00:33:07   out and also right so I guess the [TS]

00:33:10   question is like are we in for a [TS]

00:33:12   disappointment or you are any of you [TS]

00:33:14   worried that this series is going to [TS]

00:33:15   sort of peter out like I mean I don't [TS]

00:33:17   know if he's got the whole thing I [TS]

00:33:19   assume that he's got you know a lot of [TS]

00:33:20   stuff planned out but I don't I mean I [TS]

00:33:22   also assume that it's not like the whole [TS]

00:33:23   thing is planned out otherwise you know [TS]

00:33:25   the books would be written but I don't [TS]

00:33:28   know do you I i bet i've read a lot of [TS]

00:33:30   fantasy series where it's like it starts [TS]

00:33:32   out good and you can kind of tell with [TS]

00:33:33   the author ran out of steam or ideas or [TS]

00:33:37   just got so convoluted that you sort of [TS]

00:33:40   lost the thread and and I start to worry [TS]

00:33:42   about that with us and there's there's [TS]

00:33:43   three books left in theory it looks I [TS]

00:33:49   mean I don't know what is that anyway is [TS]

00:33:51   worried about their just kind of living [TS]

00:33:52   in the moment [TS]

00:33:53   well i think that that's always a danger [TS]

00:33:55   right when you have some kind of and [TS]

00:33:56   especially when it's so successful and [TS]

00:33:58   people so many people are so excited [TS]

00:34:00   about it and I can't imagine the the [TS]

00:34:03   pressure that george RR martin fields as [TS]

00:34:05   he's sitting down to write these books [TS]

00:34:06   because so many people are excited about [TS]

00:34:09   it and I'm sure that's on one hand [TS]

00:34:11   very exciting but on the other hand [TS]

00:34:12   awful because you know there are [TS]

00:34:15   websites that are devoted to just like [TS]

00:34:18   finish the damn book George and all that [TS]

00:34:20   kind of stuff and people read his blog [TS]

00:34:22   and if he mentions he's doing anything [TS]

00:34:24   other than writing there like you [TS]

00:34:26   shouldn't be watching football you have [TS]

00:34:27   to finish your book and I who he you [TS]

00:34:31   know it may suck who knows but doesn't [TS]

00:34:34   yeah that's right and I don't know and [TS]

00:34:37   they're there seems to be a little bit [TS]

00:34:38   of people feel that George RI no reason [TS]

00:34:42   yeah exactly they feel that he owes them [TS]

00:34:44   something it doesn't really OS anything [TS]

00:34:47   it's he's writing his own story and you [TS]

00:34:49   finish it [TS]

00:34:50   exactly it's just like the last episode [TS]

00:34:51   of seinfeld right that of many people [TS]

00:34:54   think that was awful but that's the way [TS]

00:34:56   they wanted to end or the way they ended [TS]

00:34:59   lost which george RR martin himself did [TS]

00:35:01   not care for you know I think that I'm i [TS]

00:35:03   think that if if we aren't willing to [TS]

00:35:06   take a chance on somebody who's writing [TS]

00:35:08   an intricate you know 3,000 page story [TS]

00:35:13   four thousand page story however long it [TS]

00:35:15   ends up being and I you know then all [TS]

00:35:17   wherever we're never going to get it [TS]

00:35:18   right we're never going to get anything [TS]

00:35:20   but a 400-page book and I what I like [TS]

00:35:22   about these books is that they really [TS]

00:35:24   feel especially the first three that you [TS]

00:35:27   can just stack them up and just read [TS]

00:35:28   them in fact i bought the first two on [TS]

00:35:30   the kindle and it was an omnibus edition [TS]

00:35:31   and I just kind of blew through both of [TS]

00:35:34   them and it you know it's one story it's [TS]

00:35:38   not like there's a novel standalone [TS]

00:35:40   novel here [TS]

00:35:41   really it just keeps going and [TS]

00:35:43   presumably will go to the end i love the [TS]

00:35:45   ambition of that and I'm willing because [TS]

00:35:47   the quality is so good i'm willing to [TS]

00:35:48   take a chance because I like that idea [TS]

00:35:51   that he's trying to tell this huge story [TS]

00:35:54   and it's one story in all of these books [TS]

00:35:56   instead of it being a series of [TS]

00:35:58   adventures one by one that said I i [TS]

00:36:01   think this dance with dragons book is [TS]

00:36:02   going to tell the tale because it's you [TS]

00:36:04   know feast for crows is almost like a [TS]

00:36:06   stalling tactic was how this don't have [TS]

00:36:11   the same but yeah yeah well and it's not [TS]

00:36:13   even that anymore because he's actually [TS]

00:36:14   added apparently Dance with Dragons does [TS]

00:36:16   advance the plot from feast for crows so [TS]

00:36:19   and he said that if they get to that [TS]

00:36:21   point in the TV series they'll basically [TS]

00:36:23   have to stick them back [TS]

00:36:24   together but so so the people who were [TS]

00:36:27   had the stories told the feast for crows [TS]

00:36:29   their stories presumably will advance a [TS]

00:36:31   little bit which is good news i think [TS]

00:36:33   because it would be a shame to wait you [TS]

00:36:34   know in more years to get the those [TS]

00:36:36   those cliffhangers result but i think [TS]

00:36:39   that will tell the tale because feast [TS]

00:36:41   for crows for me was a disappointment [TS]

00:36:42   because it was half a story and and [TS]

00:36:44   because it introduced all these new [TS]

00:36:45   characters and you missed a lot of the [TS]

00:36:47   old characters if if but if Dance with [TS]

00:36:50   Dragons is like storm of swords which is [TS]

00:36:52   a thousand pages of good stuff i feel [TS]

00:36:55   gonna feel way more confident but right [TS]

00:36:57   now having just read feast for crows I'm [TS]

00:36:59   like oh wow that was a no not [TS]

00:37:01   necessarily a misstep but it was like [TS]

00:37:02   not much of a step and I think he was [TS]

00:37:05   feeling a lot of pressure he needed to [TS]

00:37:06   get something out right and so he just [TS]

00:37:08   cut it in half and said okay take this [TS]

00:37:11   heavy load right i mean if we hadn't [TS]

00:37:13   seen feast for crows they would have [TS]

00:37:15   been like what like 12 years between [TS]

00:37:16   exactly couldn't figure out how long [TS]

00:37:19   time i don't know i think on the whole I [TS]

00:37:21   mean I enjoyed reading the books in two [TS]

00:37:24   thousand and I'm enjoying reading them [TS]

00:37:27   rereading them now and I feel like as [TS]

00:37:30   long as I'm enjoying reading this story [TS]

00:37:32   even if the story goes to bad places i [TS]

00:37:35   will still have had all that enjoyment I [TS]

00:37:37   don't feel like I've wasted my time our [TS]

00:37:39   group which is that kind of my feeling [TS]

00:37:40   on loss to it's like I didn't care for [TS]

00:37:42   the end of lost but i enjoyed watching [TS]

00:37:44   most of it and then you know okay [TS]

00:37:47   the ending sucks but it doesn't mean [TS]

00:37:49   that I've wasted you know six years of [TS]

00:37:51   my life [TS]

00:37:53   ok maybe the worst thing was the worst [TS]

00:37:55   that could happen you just haven't done [TS]

00:37:56   like you know at the end of the whatever [TS]

00:37:58   the last book is the last chapter is bob [TS]

00:38:01   newhart wakes up but it was all the tree [TS]

00:38:05   yeah yeah I do heart song of ice and [TS]

00:38:08   fire [TS]

00:38:08   it's nice it's nice to get in a good [TS]

00:38:10   satisfying ending but you know no I mean [TS]

00:38:14   I i agree i'm not i'm not so you just [TS]

00:38:15   invited terms that i'm going to give up [TS]

00:38:17   like although i did do that without the [TS]

00:38:19   wheel of time I think there's a point [TS]

00:38:20   for me where it was like and I worry [TS]

00:38:22   about this book to you know dance [TS]

00:38:23   dragons comes out and again I spent so [TS]

00:38:25   much time like having to refresh my [TS]

00:38:27   memory because I couldn't remember what [TS]

00:38:29   happened in the first four books i want [TS]

00:38:30   to go reread them before the next one [TS]

00:38:32   comes out i don't know if i want to read [TS]

00:38:33   them up there that could never do it [TS]

00:38:35   again great mr. wikipedia [TS]

00:38:37   it's very unevenly it's certainly a lot [TS]

00:38:39   more helpful than and like what helped [TS]

00:38:40   very much in this case I'm they have [TS]

00:38:42   their own their own wiki to and as much [TS]

00:38:44   as I Josh about them not paying [TS]

00:38:46   attention to the presence of raff the [TS]

00:38:48   sweetling in the feast for crows hello [TS]

00:38:51   that was great actually the wiki of ice [TS]

00:38:53   and fire because I would read the name [TS]

00:38:55   and be like Oh what the hell is that [TS]

00:38:57   and I would look it up and make a right [TS]

00:38:59   that guy and it's great because i wasn't [TS]

00:39:02   going to go back and read and you know [TS]

00:39:03   2,000 pages and I will also say thank [TS]

00:39:05   God that HBO is making a TV show because [TS]

00:39:08   that makes it much easier to refresh my [TS]

00:39:09   memory for any other things yes well and [TS]

00:39:12   and i think you know to a certain extent [TS]

00:39:14   despite whatever happens with the end of [TS]

00:39:17   the story as a whole [TS]

00:39:18   what's nice is that there are characters [TS]

00:39:20   that have arcs that essentially get [TS]

00:39:22   completed you know many of them with [TS]

00:39:24   their dance but you know that there is [TS]

00:39:26   nice there there is like basically [TS]

00:39:29   resolution in smaller doses as it goes [TS]

00:39:32   along so you don't feel like my god [TS]

00:39:34   there's all of these thread now granted [TS]

00:39:36   he also starts new threads but you know [TS]

00:39:38   I think that's kind of what's what's fun [TS]

00:39:39   about it is it's almost like somebody's [TS]

00:39:41   it's almost like spying on like out like [TS]

00:39:43   out like massively multiplayer RPG or so [TS]

00:39:45   what I was you see all the lives of all [TS]

00:39:48   these guys going in The New Yorker [TS]

00:39:50   article i think he says something that I [TS]

00:39:51   actually thought I actually told my wife [TS]

00:39:53   this while I was while I was reading a [TS]

00:39:55   storm of swords is he said he wanted he [TS]

00:40:00   wanted a story that was like great [TS]

00:40:02   historical fiction but that you didn't [TS]

00:40:04   know how it turned out and that's [TS]

00:40:06   exactly how these books feel to me it's [TS]

00:40:08   like you're reading this history of what [TS]

00:40:11   things were like in these amazing events [TS]

00:40:13   that occurred and the only difference is [TS]

00:40:15   you can't you know read a book about the [TS]

00:40:17   war of the roses and then go to [TS]

00:40:18   Wikipedia and look up what happened to [TS]

00:40:20   everybody because it's not there it's [TS]

00:40:22   only and you gotta read the books as he [TS]

00:40:25   writes them and i love that you can't [TS]

00:40:27   peek [TS]

00:40:27   you can't find out what happened it [TS]

00:40:28   feels like historical fiction but you [TS]

00:40:30   can't find out who lives and who dies [TS]

00:40:32   you have as long as god forbid george RR [TS]

00:40:35   martin does not die before him and [TS]

00:40:37   serious the thing that's nice about the [TS]

00:40:39   TV even about the format to is because [TS]

00:40:41   the the books are divided character by [TS]

00:40:44   chapter which is i have to say is really [TS]

00:40:47   nice having read other epic fantasy when [TS]

00:40:49   you just have other chapters [TS]

00:40:51   to begin with like 12 13 and you have no [TS]

00:40:53   idea who's point of view it is the first [TS]

00:40:55   these books that we state very clearly [TS]

00:40:57   this chapter is aria [TS]

00:41:00   this chapter is catlin you know exactly [TS]

00:41:03   where you are and you know exactly where [TS]

00:41:04   you can leave off if you can pick up and [TS]

00:41:06   if so choose you want to skip chapters [TS]

00:41:08   and just follow one person story you [TS]

00:41:10   could do that i mean you'd lose out on [TS]

00:41:12   some of the piecemeal stuff but you [TS]

00:41:14   still be able to do that they also cheat [TS]

00:41:16   a little bit in that some of the [TS]

00:41:18   characters that changed names [TS]

00:41:20   yeah I in the headings including the [TS]

00:41:22   headings of the job yes [TS]

00:41:23   so you're right this one or two but [TS]

00:41:26   that's only what he needs to be clever [TS]

00:41:28   and and keep you guessing about what's [TS]

00:41:30   going on [TS]

00:41:31   I so we're talking about favorite [TS]

00:41:32   characters and I I i tried to get in [TS]

00:41:34   with on this which is that I love I love [TS]

00:41:36   the interior and i think is my favorite [TS]

00:41:39   character but right behind him is Jon [TS]

00:41:41   Snow actually who I love is just a i [TS]

00:41:43   think is a great character who is going [TS]

00:41:45   to become I think ultimately other than [TS]

00:41:49   maybe Denarius i think the most [TS]

00:41:51   important character in the series i [TS]

00:41:54   agree i think john is jon is kind of the [TS]

00:41:57   closest you have to the like heroic [TS]

00:42:00   character right i mean for the most part [TS]

00:42:03   of unfairly you know making it was not [TS]

00:42:06   to sleep with people and then sleeping [TS]

00:42:07   with women and and ya again and then [TS]

00:42:10   only liberated them and having them die [TS]

00:42:13   and all right that often present still [TS]

00:42:16   as as as far as all of the characters go [TS]

00:42:19   yeah he does see he has this very strong [TS]

00:42:21   you know code you know moral code in [TS]

00:42:23   many ways and Lee has the hearings also [TS]

00:42:25   again he's the underdog guys right like [TS]

00:42:28   he's the bastard you know who's going to [TS]

00:42:30   make good his powers Lee has magical [TS]

00:42:33   powers magical powers uh and I don't [TS]

00:42:37   know if you are what one of the most [TS]

00:42:39   interesting things about Jon Snow is [TS]

00:42:41   that his his parentage is shrouded in [TS]

00:42:44   mystery [TS]

00:42:45   now that's right they had that was a [TS]

00:42:47   great scene in the TV show oh I'll tell [TS]

00:42:49   you about your mom next time I see you [TS]

00:42:51   yes we're why very happy I laughed and I [TS]

00:42:57   laughed out loud at that scene because i [TS]

00:42:58   was like wow that's at least a dozen [TS]

00:43:01   Robert [TS]

00:43:02   oh oh wait oh it's one of the little [TS]

00:43:07   pieces of the world that I really love [TS]

00:43:08   is the naming of the bastards [TS]

00:43:11   yeah yeah but they're all called after [TS]

00:43:13   the sort of dominant feature of the [TS]

00:43:16   registry problem disgrace to the snow [TS]

00:43:18   and stones are the rivers yeah I just I [TS]

00:43:22   really i think that's a great touch and [TS]

00:43:23   it's one of those little things that [TS]

00:43:24   makes me really enjoyed the world that [TS]

00:43:26   he's built and I think that's something [TS]

00:43:27   you know we've only touched upon a [TS]

00:43:28   little bit as with the world building in [TS]

00:43:31   Song of Ice and fires awesome like [TS]

00:43:33   probably the best thing about in my [TS]

00:43:36   opinion I just love the setting the [TS]

00:43:38   world i think is really interesting [TS]

00:43:39   I mean everything from going from the [TS]

00:43:41   wall which is such a crazy insane like [TS]

00:43:46   especially you know you see it in the [TS]

00:43:47   first time in the TV show and you're [TS]

00:43:48   like yeah yeah it's pretty big [TS]

00:43:51   a giant wall made out of ice mountains [TS]

00:43:54   and mountains that's nope [TS]

00:43:55   the best no port in the world the thing [TS]

00:43:57   I really like about the world is that [TS]

00:43:59   it's all done tactfully and kind of [TS]

00:44:01   behind the scenes where you don't really [TS]

00:44:03   notice that you realize that you know so [TS]

00:44:05   much about the world until your you know [TS]

00:44:07   two books and you're like oh wait i have [TS]

00:44:09   a really great picture in my mind of [TS]

00:44:12   what this all looks like and I never had [TS]

00:44:14   to sit through 10 pages of exposition [TS]

00:44:16   right you know vague third person [TS]

00:44:19   telling me how lovely the trees are when [TS]

00:44:21   they bloom at night you know what you're [TS]

00:44:23   talking about the world in a way that [TS]

00:44:24   doesn't feel like you're being lectured [TS]

00:44:25   to which is you know it's it's funny I [TS]

00:44:27   had that realization when I was watching [TS]

00:44:29   the TV show and trying to explain who [TS]

00:44:31   some of the characters were in my wife [TS]

00:44:32   and and and realized that you know I [TS]

00:44:35   would never have been able to memorize [TS]

00:44:37   the various families during the war of [TS]

00:44:40   the roses or you know any other kind of [TS]

00:44:41   medieval series of your battles between [TS]

00:44:44   noble families and I'm like oh yeah i [TS]

00:44:46   can tell you all about the Turk Arians [TS]

00:44:48   and the Starks and the and the beareth [TS]

00:44:50   eons and and the Lannisters and what [TS]

00:44:53   their symbols are and what their colors [TS]

00:44:55   are and how did I learn all this stuff [TS]

00:44:57   that's 2,000 pages of george RR martin [TS]

00:45:00   history teachers to take a leaf from [TS]

00:45:02   this book if only it were real teach [TS]

00:45:04   Westeros in schools will be a great bump [TS]

00:45:08   w great bumper sticker by the way teach [TS]

00:45:10   Westeros [TS]

00:45:12   what would Tyrion do probably you know [TS]

00:45:17   the higher and bring ya back i also love [TS]

00:45:20   the number of the number of shifty [TS]

00:45:21   characters [TS]

00:45:22   yes you get like tyrion you get RS yeah [TS]

00:45:25   a little finger like they're such great [TS]

00:45:28   characters who are who are clearly all [TS]

00:45:31   about intrigue in sumter fusion that's [TS]

00:45:33   kind of refreshing and not all of them [TS]

00:45:35   are you know stereotypical like like [TS]

00:45:38   insidious characters only I love that [TS]

00:45:40   little finger says to Ned's face early [TS]

00:45:43   on in the first book just like you [TS]

00:45:45   shouldn't trust me i'm the person you [TS]

00:45:46   should trust least and Ned still trust [TS]

00:45:49   him and then when he gets frustrated [TS]

00:45:51   like I told you not to trust you like I [TS]

00:45:54   I said it [TS]

00:45:55   what do you want for me also characters [TS]

00:45:57   who like to push other characters out of [TS]

00:45:59   windows [TS]

00:46:00   yes defenestration dip-dip yeah ask that [TS]

00:46:04   I would make me do it Emma straighten [TS]

00:46:06   that's right twice and lovely word [TS]

00:46:09   prices met that that's like the [TS]

00:46:11   climactic scene of a storm of swords [TS]

00:46:13   right is that is that after all of that [TS]

00:46:16   trouble to get to the Aerie fo ya shoves [TS]

00:46:20   Lisa Lisa license Aaron right out the [TS]

00:46:22   window [TS]

00:46:23   oh she's dead talk about it and talk [TS]

00:46:27   about super creepy characters [TS]

00:46:29   oh yeah definitely up there yes crazy [TS]

00:46:31   when she makes a grand entrance in the [TS]

00:46:32   HBO series let me tell ya she really [TS]

00:46:35   does [TS]

00:46:35   well I was wondering how they were going [TS]

00:46:36   to do her introductory scene when i was [TS]

00:46:39   reading the book i'm like they they [TS]

00:46:41   can't possibly put that on oh they're [TS]

00:46:43   going to put that on television you see [TS]

00:46:45   here sitting on the throne and her you [TS]

00:46:47   know kind of like 10 year old son is [TS]

00:46:49   sitting there nursing on her wall she [TS]

00:46:51   oh my god oh that makes me wonder i was [TS]

00:46:56   gonna say you know makes me there's a [TS]

00:46:57   pretty interesting scene at the end of [TS]

00:46:59   game of thrones with Daenerys that I was [TS]

00:47:01   like man I can't wait to see how they [TS]

00:47:03   handle the actual fire yeah i mean it is [TS]

00:47:06   hpl it's HBO I don't think everything [TS]

00:47:09   needs to be attacked they haven't they [TS]

00:47:12   haven't shown themselves like willing to [TS]

00:47:14   pull punches really which is kind of [TS]

00:47:15   refreshing in some ways but also you [TS]

00:47:17   know disturbing others the amount of Sun [TS]

00:47:21   will not even subtle pornography in the [TS]

00:47:22   books always throws me where it's just [TS]

00:47:25   like out [TS]

00:47:25   wow ok where we're going into a chapter [TS]

00:47:28   and then [TS]

00:47:28   oh yeah someone someone's getting raped [TS]

00:47:30   and they're getting raped in great [TS]

00:47:31   detail in this book and it's not even [TS]

00:47:33   suddenly or otherwise implied these are [TS]

00:47:36   these are underage children or these are [TS]

00:47:39   like people who are far you know it [TS]

00:47:41   it'sit's they don't pull any punches and [TS]

00:47:43   it's it's very it's a little disturbing [TS]

00:47:46   I have to say it's bothersome to read [TS]

00:47:47   not to go back to the the that New [TS]

00:47:49   Yorker article again but some another [TS]

00:47:51   you know it's a great article and and [TS]

00:47:53   i'll put in the show notes but it's um [TS]

00:47:55   he says you know it's a reaction to the [TS]

00:48:00   kind of glossy fantasies that people [TS]

00:48:02   have about the the medieval period he [TS]

00:48:05   said you know people were you know [TS]

00:48:08   people were married off young and and [TS]

00:48:11   that you know 12 and 13 year old girls [TS]

00:48:14   this stuff happened to them it was not [TS]

00:48:16   this kind of fairytale kind of existence [TS]

00:48:18   and and especially he said these fairy [TS]

00:48:20   tales where the the working girl tells [TS]

00:48:23   off the prints [TS]

00:48:25   he's like yeah that didn't happen if [TS]

00:48:27   that happened they would be dead or more [TS]

00:48:29   likely they would be raped and then dead [TS]

00:48:31   and so we wanted it to be that ugly that [TS]

00:48:34   people get put into arranged marriages [TS]

00:48:36   and they can't do anything about it and [TS]

00:48:38   they're stuck with it and it's miserable [TS]

00:48:39   and you know and and so he put that all [TS]

00:48:43   in there and it's lovely isn't it yeah [TS]

00:48:46   there are some brutal scenes very early [TS]

00:48:48   i mean like as again i refresh because I [TS]

00:48:50   just watch the second episode i think [TS]

00:48:52   the TV show that the scene where Arya's [TS]

00:48:54   fencing with the butcher's boy the [TS]

00:48:58   bushes well yeah and then Joffrey of [TS]

00:49:01   course shows up and ruins everything as [TS]

00:49:02   his is want but the picture basically [TS]

00:49:05   gets written down later and killed by [TS]

00:49:07   the San firmed clean the dog [TS]

00:49:11   yes and you know it was you know an [TS]

00:49:15   innocent basically I kid who did nothing [TS]

00:49:17   right and like you know he just got on [TS]

00:49:19   the wrong side of royalty and the end on [TS]

00:49:22   the killing of stanzas [TS]

00:49:24   a direwolf to always makes me really sad [TS]

00:49:26   where you don't even really get to know [TS]

00:49:29   that the the wolves that much at that [TS]

00:49:32   point in the story and you don't really [TS]

00:49:34   get to know sands of that much of that [TS]

00:49:35   you seem you think of her kind of as a [TS]

00:49:37   little bit of a pressed of audio Starks [TS]

00:49:39   but at the same time you can't help but [TS]

00:49:41   feel for just like all this that's [TS]

00:49:44   that's terrible toll free so had some [TS]

00:49:48   yeah [TS]

00:49:50   Sansa Stark annoys that crap she's [TS]

00:49:52   frustrating she gets better in the [TS]

00:49:54   second book in the first book yeah she's [TS]

00:49:56   still one of my least sympathetic [TS]

00:49:58   editors i think i think on the whole [TS]

00:50:00   area and brand actually I like jon snow [TS]

00:50:03   a lot but brand brand kind of have a [TS]

00:50:05   special place in my heart for her for [TS]

00:50:08   him a little bit i don't know if it's [TS]

00:50:10   the climbing or the or the the wolf [TS]

00:50:13   connection or what but he just he's very [TS]

00:50:15   interesting character the three-eyed [TS]

00:50:17   crow [TS]

00:50:18   yeah I always want more about Rickon I [TS]

00:50:21   don't know engage in time a day I don't [TS]

00:50:24   know you [TS]

00:50:24   he seems like bad bad things are in [TS]

00:50:27   store for baby reckon he's off with his [TS]

00:50:30   frog eating friends right there [TS]

00:50:33   going somewhere I don't know that that's [TS]

00:50:36   one of those cases where it's like well [TS]

00:50:38   I have too many characters i'm going to [TS]

00:50:40   send some of them off and we will never [TS]

00:50:42   see them just hide them somewhere my [TS]

00:50:45   date but they might end up being the the [TS]

00:50:47   king of Winterfell the only a live [TS]

00:50:50   person at the end of the book right but [TS]

00:50:53   read the last general would have died [TS]

00:50:55   love walks back in which is you know [TS]

00:50:58   hiding off-screen and he wins the game [TS]

00:51:01   with the hounds [TS]

00:51:02   that's right by default would be sad if [TS]

00:51:05   the game of thrones said that I wouldn't [TS]

00:51:07   it [TS]

00:51:07   there is only but you either win or you [TS]

00:51:10   die [TS]

00:51:11   isn't that place and there's only one [TS]

00:51:12   way to win the game of thrones and [TS]

00:51:14   that's not to play [TS]

00:51:15   ah that's a good lesson thanks i came up [TS]

00:51:19   with a nice thank you thank you very [TS]

00:51:21   much so [TS]

00:51:22   so we've talked about it all this time i [TS]

00:51:24   guess i should ask the question you know [TS]

00:51:27   obviously to read all these you must [TS]

00:51:29   have all enjoyed the books are they you [TS]

00:51:33   know where they where do they rank are [TS]

00:51:34   they you know are they find a ok or [TS]

00:51:37   are they some of the better stuff i mean [TS]

00:51:39   to keep talking about Martin as the [TS]

00:51:40   American Tolkien which is awfully high [TS]

00:51:42   praise and so I'm just wondering is it [TS]

00:51:44   is it deserved how deserve this and how [TS]

00:51:47   good are these books i think that it is [TS]

00:51:49   difficult since it is one large story it [TS]

00:51:53   is difficult to judge it until it is [TS]

00:51:55   done because i think that it [TS]

00:51:58   I mean clearly george RR martin knows [TS]

00:52:00   how to tell a story right so i think [TS]

00:52:01   it's enjoyable i like reading it I [TS]

00:52:03   wouldn't have read whatever 4,000 pages [TS]

00:52:05   of it if I didn't like it a lot of [TS]

00:52:08   Kendall dots [TS]

00:52:08   it's a lot of candles and I read it [TS]

00:52:10   before the candles were around so it's a [TS]

00:52:12   lot of heavy blocks [TS]

00:52:14   yeah I didn't realize how long story of [TS]

00:52:15   sorts was until i had read like a [TS]

00:52:17   million pages of it and saw that I was a [TS]

00:52:19   two percent exactly their long books in [TS]

00:52:22   it requires a you know I'm indication [TS]

00:52:26   yes and especially this isn't done it's [TS]

00:52:28   even uncertain right cuz you never know [TS]

00:52:30   so i think that I don't know if you see [TS]

00:52:34   market told him I don't really like [TS]

00:52:35   talking so that may come home d'Artagnan [TS]

00:52:40   so I hope he isn't exactly i think is [TS]

00:52:42   very good and I think that it is so [TS]

00:52:44   unlike almost other fantasy well [TS]

00:52:47   especially fantasy of that time when it [TS]

00:52:49   was written now there's a whole bunch of [TS]

00:52:51   more fantasy that is kind of like this [TS]

00:52:52   that it certainly is an important series [TS]

00:52:56   in the world of fantasy and enjoyable [TS]

00:53:00   but I don't know what his lasting legacy [TS]

00:53:03   will be I was kind of expensive exactly [TS]

00:53:06   Wisconsin and i think i think the proof [TS]

00:53:07   is going to be in the pudding once the [TS]

00:53:09   the rest of the volumes come out i agree [TS]

00:53:10   you know he's a good storyteller I've [TS]

00:53:13   been very engaged by all the books i [TS]

00:53:16   think in in that I i would put him up [TS]

00:53:20   there is one of the fantasy authors i [TS]

00:53:22   really like there may be a couple others [TS]

00:53:25   i like more and that might just be [TS]

00:53:26   having you know the scope of the other [TS]

00:53:28   books in terms of the way the end and [TS]

00:53:30   things like feel like they might have a [TS]

00:53:32   little better sense of humor and stuff [TS]

00:53:33   like that a lot of a lot of Song of Ice [TS]

00:53:35   and virus very grim which is not say [TS]

00:53:38   it's not enjoyable but like you know [TS]

00:53:40   it's nice to have a levee break every [TS]

00:53:42   once in awhile after like you've seen [TS]

00:53:43   countless people get raped and murdered [TS]

00:53:45   you know nice to maybe you know [TS]

00:53:46   something that'll put a something along [TS]

00:53:48   like a wedding [TS]

00:53:50   oh wait let's move [TS]

00:53:51   sure everybody at a wedding everybody [TS]

00:53:53   wants our wedding that's what a cello [TS]

00:53:55   mentioned the promotion for HP other you [TS]

00:53:57   like the wedding episode yay come and [TS]

00:53:59   watch the wedding [TS]

00:54:01   everybody dies these musicians musicians [TS]

00:54:06   are not very good i wonder why I suppose [TS]

00:54:10   anyway so you know i i've enjoyed it a [TS]

00:54:13   lot but i really i think you know in [TS]

00:54:16   order i think the ending needs to he [TS]

00:54:18   needs to stick the ending like i think [TS]

00:54:20   that's that's what it comes down to for [TS]

00:54:22   me if it really turns into like you know [TS]

00:54:24   you can go back and and look at the [TS]

00:54:26   whole the whole thing is a hole and say [TS]

00:54:28   wow yeah this was a great story will i [TS]

00:54:29   recommend this to my friends once it's [TS]

00:54:31   all out there and I've read it from [TS]

00:54:33   start to finish and say yes you know [TS]

00:54:35   what you can you come on your conscience [TS]

00:54:36   i can when it's all like yeah i can [TS]

00:54:39   recommend to you this excellent book [TS]

00:54:42   series [TS]

00:54:43   um I mean I like that's the question I [TS]

00:54:45   think Jason I think you and I might have [TS]

00:54:47   had a conversation with the passes like [TS]

00:54:48   whether or not and a bad ending [TS]

00:54:49   sabotages everything that comes before [TS]

00:54:52   they're there are numerous books and TV [TS]

00:54:54   shows and movies that I have recommended [TS]

00:54:56   even though I felt like maybe the ending [TS]

00:54:59   fell flat because I felt like that the [TS]

00:55:01   beginning the journey of getting to that [TS]

00:55:03   point was still worthwhile and andrea [TS]

00:55:05   was talking about lost earlier and while [TS]

00:55:07   I disagree in certain i really like in [TS]

00:55:10   many ways the lost ending or I liked a [TS]

00:55:12   lot more than a lot of people do I [TS]

00:55:14   didn't feel that it undermined the rest [TS]

00:55:16   of the series for me I felt like that [TS]

00:55:17   was still enjoyable in its own right but [TS]

00:55:20   it's hard to tell somebody to invest all [TS]

00:55:23   the time in watching a sixth season [TS]

00:55:25   series or a you know seven books read [TS]

00:55:28   the second book series if the ending is [TS]

00:55:31   kind of a letdown [TS]

00:55:32   so I around you know abstain from [TS]

00:55:35   judgment until that point I hear it get [TS]

00:55:37   compared to battlestar a lot actually [TS]

00:55:39   where people not like that yes see [TS]

00:55:42   that's the problem is that the ending on [TS]

00:55:44   that for me fell flat i can't recommend [TS]

00:55:45   it to people like there's some really [TS]

00:55:47   great stuff in there but I feel like as [TS]

00:55:50   a whole the end of that series really [TS]

00:55:52   crushes allow the beginning of it for me [TS]

00:55:54   but Ren generally to generally I mean [TS]

00:55:58   this thing about epic fantasy for me [TS]

00:56:01   while I once i get hooked into a [TS]

00:56:04   a story i will end up reading it epic [TS]

00:56:06   fantasy is not my preferred genre of [TS]

00:56:08   voice why neither [TS]

00:56:10   yeah but I mean but that being said i [TS]

00:56:13   really enjoy reading these books and I'm [TS]

00:56:15   enjoying reading them and i will [TS]

00:56:19   probably buy the book in july when it [TS]

00:56:21   comes out and read that as well [TS]

00:56:23   presumably that I'm finished rereading [TS]

00:56:24   the whole the books by then I and I mean [TS]

00:56:27   on the whole yet it's definitely a wait [TS]

00:56:29   and see game but in terms of I mean what [TS]

00:56:32   he's put out so far I like and in [TS]

00:56:35   comparison to other unnamed epic fantasy [TS]

00:56:38   writers of the last you know couple [TS]

00:56:40   decades is definitely higher up than [TS]

00:56:43   them so that's that's where he registers [TS]

00:56:46   for me [TS]

00:56:47   alright then you mentioned other fantasy [TS]

00:56:50   novels sub i'm wondering you rank uh the [TS]

00:56:54   name of the wind above or below this I [TS]

00:56:57   think they're they're very close for me [TS]

00:56:59   they're very different stories and [TS]

00:57:00   anyway I mean like they're both fantasy [TS]

00:57:01   very different camps you know I mean I [TS]

00:57:06   mean there's a lot more magic obviously [TS]

00:57:07   name of the wind it's a lot more focused [TS]

00:57:09   on that it's a it's in theory a smaller [TS]

00:57:11   scope series ii notes it's very long [TS]

00:57:14   hook in fact if you actually manage to [TS]

00:57:16   finish it in a third book it's also [TS]

00:57:19   focused very heavily on one character [TS]

00:57:21   which is of which is a major difference [TS]

00:57:24   but it is I'll I appreciate that i find [TS]

00:57:27   it a little more even tho bad stuff [TS]

00:57:29   happens and bad stuff [TS]

00:57:30   most assuredly does happen it's a little [TS]

00:57:33   more measured there's there's more [TS]

00:57:35   levity you know I think that that makes [TS]

00:57:38   it in some ways a more enjoyable the [TS]

00:57:42   right word but like it makes it some [TS]

00:57:43   ways more fun to read good but it may be [TS]

00:57:46   lacks some of the scope or the like [TS]

00:57:49   intense historical like Captain [TS]

00:57:51   grittiness that the song of ice and fire [TS]

00:57:53   has so I don't know it might be kind of [TS]

00:57:55   an apples and oranges thing but i like i [TS]

00:57:56   like both of those writers quite a bit [TS]

00:57:57   and they both have trouble getting out [TS]

00:57:58   walking book so I sympathize before we [TS]

00:58:01   go I wanted to ask you I'd sew a dance [TS]

00:58:04   with dragons right is coming out [TS]

00:58:08   july 12 was finished today right when he [TS]

00:58:11   11 it was finished as we record this [TS]

00:58:13   podcast it is finished or so they claim [TS]

00:58:15   will believe it when I see it [TS]

00:58:18   does anyone else think a dance with [TS]

00:58:19   dragons would be really awkward like I'm [TS]

00:58:21   thinking like a highschool yes [TS]

00:58:23   yeah like all the dragons on one side [TS]

00:58:24   and almost there so you decide to cook [TS]

00:58:27   corpses on the other side there is very [TS]

00:58:30   awkward dance if you're a Dragonlord you [TS]

00:58:34   know if you're a Targaryen it would be [TS]

00:58:36   an awesome dance [TS]

00:58:37   yeah you'd be crowned like prom queen [TS]

00:58:40   yeah of course everybody else would the [TS]

00:58:42   prom king would be horribly slowly [TS]

00:58:46   murdered by a poison blade but hey [TS]

00:58:49   you're the ball [TS]

00:58:51   what does it matter if things happen [TS]

00:58:52   make an omelet without breaking space [TS]

00:58:53   dragon eggs haha after they've been [TS]

00:58:58   roasted and fire am i right right so I [TS]

00:59:04   oh what a dance with dragons [TS]

00:59:06   you're gonna you know place your [TS]

00:59:07   pre-orders and start reading about July [TS]

00:59:10   twelfth you're going to wait and see [TS]

00:59:11   what what's the anticipation level [TS]

00:59:14   I don't know fire I'm gonna buy it i'll [TS]

00:59:18   read it i is the question for me whether [TS]

00:59:20   I really want to go back and reread the [TS]

00:59:21   earlier books first off I'm just gonna [TS]

00:59:23   sort of catch up the synopsis but i can [TS]

00:59:26   guarantee that i will read it i have [TS]

00:59:28   pre-ordered it will show up on my kindle [TS]

00:59:30   and i will read it i will not reread the [TS]

00:59:33   books i really have no idea what's going [TS]

00:59:35   on i read the synopsis but it has other [TS]

00:59:38   things you guys talked about I had no [TS]

00:59:40   recollection [TS]

00:59:41   so I'm just gonna jump in and hopefully [TS]

00:59:43   remember the sheets so what with it will [TS]

00:59:47   have a podcast in memory of Scott McCall [TS]

00:59:49   that three rounds in a dancer directions [TS]

00:59:51   it Scott like you it will be appearing [TS]

00:59:54   magically on my kindle on the morning of [TS]

00:59:56   july 12 and i look forward to it but [TS]

00:59:59   that's [TS]

00:59:59   that's [TS]

01:00:00   why did I waited on on uh on the [TS]

01:00:02   previous book until until recently so I [TS]

01:00:07   wouldn't be completely at sea when I got [TS]

01:00:10   to dance with dragons waiting forever [TS]

01:00:11   the wiki wiki helps Scott that's [TS]

01:00:14   whenever you get somewhere you like who [TS]

01:00:16   is that guy again [TS]

01:00:17   yeah i just look it up for for pleasure [TS]

01:00:19   reading i'm not doing research i'm not [TS]

01:00:21   going to wiki to figure out who somebody [TS]

01:00:22   I just like okay I don't know he's well [TS]

01:00:26   I i know that was it was a good [TS]

01:00:28   refresher for me because then I didn't [TS]

01:00:29   have to go back and look at previous [TS]

01:00:31   books and see if i could find where they [TS]

01:00:33   mentioned the guy I was just looking on [TS]

01:00:35   the internet it doesn't matter that much [TS]

01:00:37   to me it doesn't matter i don't care if [TS]

01:00:38   Lord High valerian news related to Ned [TS]

01:00:42   Stark and he stole a dragon baby and [TS]

01:00:45   that's why the king is bad and everyone [TS]

01:00:48   has to go get him in own over it is all [TS]

01:00:51   the subject my air or if a little weary [TS]

01:00:54   and mrs. Heath budos you said something [TS]

01:00:59   very of household we're very pretentious [TS]

01:01:01   exactly look it up on the wiki i'm [TS]

01:01:03   adding a tree right now [TS]

01:01:05   excellent also what that while you're [TS]

01:01:07   there put in the thing about raff the [TS]

01:01:09   sweetling because they totally missed [TS]

01:01:11   that you're so strong up over this Jason [TS]

01:01:14   you know I I expect my obsessive [TS]

01:01:17   completest george RR martin wiki people [TS]

01:01:20   to know more about characters mentioned [TS]

01:01:23   in the books that have been out for [TS]

01:01:24   years than me who's reading it in you [TS]

01:01:26   know will fully late in 2011 and they [TS]

01:01:29   let me down [TS]

01:01:30   rafa sweetly he's like one of the people [TS]

01:01:32   that Ari has praised for their death [TS]

01:01:35   before she goes to sleep at night I [TS]

01:01:37   guess I i got i got you i have no idea i [TS]

01:01:39   gotta share with you i I just I just [TS]

01:01:41   happened to look up that the blog post i [TS]

01:01:43   wrote when I actually met george RR [TS]

01:01:44   martin and I i I've found that i quoted [TS]

01:01:47   an answer from him that I'd forgotten [TS]

01:01:48   which I quite enjoy which is what when I [TS]

01:01:50   asked how he keeps track of the [TS]

01:01:52   elaborate story line to numerous [TS]

01:01:53   characters in series george replied I [TS]

01:01:55   have been living in this world since [TS]

01:01:57   1991 these characters are more real to [TS]

01:01:59   me that most of the people i meet I mean [TS]

01:02:01   I'll forget all of you in 15 minutes [TS]

01:02:03   haha alright so George are right I i [TS]

01:02:06   think and in one hour we could perfectly [TS]

01:02:09   well cover all 80 thousand pages of the [TS]

01:02:12   series don't you [TS]

01:02:13   yes Don done and dusted never need to [TS]

01:02:16   revisit never accept you know in a [TS]

01:02:18   couple weeks we talk about the [TS]

01:02:20   television show right and when we talk [TS]

01:02:23   about the next push damn it [TS]

01:02:25   alright well so there-there you go we've [TS]

01:02:27   covered everything you ever needed to [TS]

01:02:28   know about the song of ice and fire [TS]

01:02:30   except for all the parts we skipped [TS]

01:02:33   because it's really long [TS]

01:02:35   I and a dance with dragons comes out in [TS]

01:02:38   july so we'll check back in after [TS]

01:02:40   everybody's had a chance to read it and [TS]

01:02:42   and and talked about it a little bit [TS]

01:02:45   more about what we've been waiting for [TS]

01:02:46   some of those characters have been [TS]

01:02:48   hanging on the edge of a cliff for like [TS]

01:02:50   ten years the fingers get my tired [TS]

01:02:53   really have no idea who they're yeah who [TS]

01:02:56   I yeah you're gonna go oh yeah was that [TS]

01:02:58   a thing was he in trouble oh I had why [TS]

01:03:00   this guy and a clear what is going on is [TS]

01:03:03   it right and him and why is he oh well [TS]

01:03:06   he's off the cliff now let's just keep [TS]

01:03:08   reading [TS]

01:03:08   that's the Scott McNulty method right it [TS]

01:03:10   is breeding believe you're an accident [TS]

01:03:12   until we cried and revisit george RR [TS]

01:03:15   martin in the summer when we're out in [TS]

01:03:16   our hammocks in our backyards reading [TS]

01:03:19   poems about horrible things happening to [TS]

01:03:22   made-up people in medieval Westeros i [TS]

01:03:25   would like to thank everybody for [TS]

01:03:27   participating in this exciting and [TS]

01:03:30   informative podcasts got Mykelti sorry [TS]

01:03:33   Scott RR McNulty thank you oh thank you [TS]

01:03:36   i will need to consult the incomparable [TS]

01:03:40   wiki to figure out who yeah that's right [TS]

01:03:43   you should do that it's although raff [TS]

01:03:44   the sweetling is not mentioned in copper [TS]

01:03:46   with but which either nor is jason [TS]

01:03:49   reitman it's very confusing [TS]

01:03:51   Daniel RR more'n see haha that was [TS]

01:03:55   pretty close how thank you for being [TS]

01:03:57   here this podcast has gone for so long I [TS]

01:04:00   feel as though I've aged a year in the [TS]

01:04:02   time that we that's ok we're going to [TS]

01:04:03   split the plot podcast in half and not [TS]

01:04:05   released the second half for another [TS]

01:04:06   five years [TS]

01:04:07   good call good thank you and serenity [TS]

01:04:10   are are called well thank you for being [TS]

01:04:12   here as well it is my great honor and [TS]

01:04:15   pleasure to be here [TS]

01:04:16   I am Jason RR smell i guess just to be [TS]

01:04:21   parallel and I'd like to thank all the [TS]

01:04:23   listeners the uncomfortable from putting [TS]

01:04:24   up with our silliness and by the way if [TS]

01:04:27   you haven't read these books and you've [TS]

01:04:28   gotten to this point what is wrong with [TS]

01:04:29   you know but you know what a spoiler [TS]

01:04:32   horn is until next time thanks for [TS]

01:04:35   listening being comfortable [TS]

01:04:36   goodbye [TS]

01:04:38   [Music] [TS]

01:04:46   and we have a podcast dedicated to the [TS]

01:04:49   small character that Jason's sister [TS]

01:04:50   happen rather serious lapse rate like [TS]

01:04:53   Evans I mean we had a real genius [TS]

01:04:55   podcast it's always possible he is he [TS]

01:04:58   doesn't run everything you know you guys [TS]

01:04:59   can host your own episodes if you like [TS]

01:05:02   and you know but I'm just about 1 i'm [TS]

01:05:04   not whatever this is great we should [TS]

01:05:06   just have a whole series about like one [TS]

01:05:08   character sucking but fire as the onion [TS]

01:05:11   knight podcast i would be our onions the [TS]

01:05:15   ned stark podcast it ends abruptly [TS]