0:00:00the incomparable podcast number 27 mar
0:00:14we're back on the uncomfortable podcast
0:00:16and I call this meeting of the book club
0:00:18to order and as last time our book club
0:00:21remains I dwindled to three but now we
0:00:25remain at three we didn't lose anybody
0:00:27this isn't a horror movie where they
0:00:29pick us off one by one or at least not
0:00:32yet yet so there's me the voice you
0:00:35heard is Glenn fleischmann claim thanks
0:00:37for not dying in the interim and reading
0:00:39the book thank you for not bury me in a
0:00:41shallow grave as promised
0:00:43yes and also joining us is of course the
0:00:45heart of the podcast Scott McNulty I
0:00:48always thought I was the spleen of the
0:00:50podcast yeah the gizzard have the
0:00:52podcast that's been that's right all
0:00:54right so I'm Jason snow and i am your
0:00:58host for the incomparable podcast and
0:01:00the book club and we're going to talk
0:01:01today about a book that was actually
0:01:03mentioned by Scott McNulty on the very
0:01:06first incomparable podcast right
0:01:09it just takes us a long time to get the
0:01:11face yeah well it you know for us to all
0:01:13read the book or at least all by all I
0:01:15mean the three of us may even be the
0:01:18people who are literate has used the
0:01:21word to read
0:01:22that's right so so the book is the dream
0:01:25of perpetual motion by dexter Palmer
0:01:29very interesting book i'm not sure where
0:01:34to start we should probably summarize
0:01:35what this book is Scott you want to take
0:01:38a crack at sort of what the book is
0:01:39about on a broad scale sure I so it's
0:01:44it's the main character is a guy named
0:01:45Harold Winslow I think that's yes okay
0:01:48and he hit it so it has a framing story
0:01:53that takes place in a Zeppelin yes it's
0:01:56not really feeling still check no
0:01:57because it keeps coming back and forth
0:01:59you sort of start and end there but
0:02:00there's also it keeps cutting to it in
0:02:03the middle at various points exactly so
0:02:05i guess i guess the rest of the stories
0:02:07and flashback I guess exactly so in the
0:02:09chronologic the chronological you know
0:02:13flow of the book begin a present where
0:02:16Harold Winslow is trapped on a Zeppelin
0:02:21that contains a perpetual motion machine
0:02:24apparently that keeps it afloat
0:02:27but he has a sneaking suspicion that it
0:02:29is failing and he's going to crash and
0:02:32he's writing his life story basically on
0:02:35this Zeppelin and explains over the
0:02:37course of the book why in fact he's
0:02:38trapped in a Zeppelin and you find out
0:02:41his dealings with a character named
0:02:44prospero taligent who is a guess his
0:02:48counterpart dinosaur his nemesis not
0:02:52really insist that he is the alleged
0:02:54nemesis allegedly the constructed
0:02:57nemesis right right he's an
0:02:59industrialist and inventor and his
0:03:01frozen corpse is stored on the Zeppelin
0:03:04it
0:03:06that's not a spoiler amazing on all that
0:03:08is not hot and he has a daughter who is
0:03:11I guess kind of a love interest may be
0:03:13called Miranda and so the story is
0:03:17really Harold and maran about their the
0:03:21relationship between Harold and Miranda
0:03:24and how Prospero interacts kind of sets
0:03:29in motion a series of events that leads
0:03:32to the beginning of the book through to
0:03:34the end of the book right make any sense
0:03:35know that it was very good
0:03:37that's yes well well set and added the
0:03:39author set in fact and the setting of in
0:03:41the flashback is is we'll get to that
0:03:43Glenn is is zero ville which is a
0:03:47fictional city in the 20th century but
0:03:51it's not the twentieth centuries we've
0:03:52come to know it's this I guess you could
0:03:55say steampunky kind of you know it's
0:03:57it's a it's the future is viewed from
0:03:59the past kind of thing there are there
0:04:02are there was an age of miracles which
0:04:04is passed and now things are more modern
0:04:07but their modern in a very strange way
0:04:08where there are mechanical men and other
0:04:11strange inventions that seems to have
0:04:13all been created by this prospero
0:04:15taligent who is AAA enigma of a
0:04:18character
0:04:19yes he's a very mysterious guy its its
0:04:23steampunk it's like it's like we're you
0:04:25know they have computers and the
0:04:26Internet ostensibly and combustion
0:04:28engines but everyone wears little tiny
0:04:30round glasses to the style inside this
0:04:33through the style aesthetic style and
0:04:36description of things that makes it
0:04:38sound like a sort of eighteenth-century
0:04:39steampunk
0:04:40nice entry steampunk you know veneer and
0:04:43yet all sorts of modern stuff is there
0:04:45too it's just there's not plenty things
0:04:47are sort of in short supply that people
0:04:49are all starving so it's not precisely
0:04:51it's a dystopian but it's not thoroughly
0:04:54horrible it's just it's just different
0:04:56oh i wouldnít i read the the sort of
0:04:59city of zero available had you know it
0:05:02was it's like the movies movies that are
0:05:04set in in the early 20th century the
0:05:06late 19th century where it sort of well
0:05:08we don't have a lot but we've got
0:05:09plucked by golly it was that one thing
0:05:12there's nothing economy our main
0:05:14character our antihero can be employed
0:05:16as a greeting card slogan writer what
0:05:19sort of hilarious
0:05:20by the way as the greeting card slogan
0:05:22writer that is weights described in
0:05:25which he and his colleagues write them
0:05:26is precisely the way in which America
0:05:28Online used to construct its advertising
0:05:32slogans about a decade ago and i'm not
0:05:34kidding like the description reading
0:05:36this I knew a guy who was involved in
0:05:37creating it you're doing a be testing
0:05:39where you test two versions of something
0:05:41are many versions of something to see
0:05:42what gets people to click on offers and
0:05:44the process by which the greeting
0:05:46Harvard you know get well in anniversary
0:05:50holiday stuff is composed in the factory
0:05:52for which mr. Winslow works is is really
0:05:55i mean almost identical to what i welded
0:05:58I i wonder if you work today well that's
0:06:00what time it strikes what struck me
0:06:01about the greeting card company which is
0:06:03an interesting sort of at the beginning
0:06:04we we meet him and he's working in the
0:06:06greeting card company sort of you get
0:06:08the sense he's a he's a failed writer
0:06:10and we actually then flashback I guess
0:06:11further and talk about his childhood and
0:06:14what's led him to this point what struck
0:06:16me about it is is have working in the
0:06:18magazine industry the you end up getting
0:06:20very displaced in time where you're
0:06:23working on your holiday gift guide in
0:06:25the summertime we have a summer intern
0:06:28this year who was working on our holiday
0:06:30guide which always seems insane but
0:06:32that's the way you have to do it now at
0:06:34max black world magazine you decorate
0:06:36the office for the season in which the
0:06:38publications are coming out right
0:06:40because right now we're all correctly
0:06:42it's August in your office
0:06:44well that that is one of the amusing
0:06:45things about the about the greeting card
0:06:46companies that they like pipe in the the
0:06:49cold air in the middle of summer and
0:06:52make everybody freeze and they put up
0:06:53Chris
0:06:54with decorations but anyway I've lived
0:06:55that sort of displacement where your
0:06:57head is in the holidays and it's August
0:07:00so I thought that was I thought that was
0:07:01a strange little little bit this was
0:07:03this book was written by dr. Palmer
0:07:06while he was what I guess
0:07:08procrastinating from doing his his his
0:07:11PhD thesis at you know which i think is
0:07:15kind of interesting so you not written
0:07:16by a young guy written by a guy who's
0:07:19probably you know 30 or a little bit
0:07:22over 30 and and so we probably had some
0:07:24interesting life experiences that he
0:07:26kind of poured into this so it's in the
0:07:28modern ones too like he obviously has
0:07:29some dot-com experience because there's
0:07:31so many aspects of this that legacy idea
0:07:33what AOL thing that greeted the magazine
0:07:35things like some part of access to
0:07:38publications online things where he's
0:07:40retelling a story there's a bit in which
0:07:43he's trying to explain something to his
0:07:44sister by drawing diagrams on cards it's
0:07:47a marvelous but we should talk about
0:07:48more that whole part of town but the the
0:07:51notion of using sort of like PowerPoint
0:07:53presentations and using simplified
0:07:55things that try to explain everything to
0:07:57get people to buy into ideas is very
0:07:59taut commies so there's definitely it's
0:08:02like a steampunk feel it's like this is
0:08:04what happened if if we had steampunk and
0:08:06the 2001 dot-com collapse actually cause
0:08:09like the collapse of society as a whole
0:08:11and i read somewhere that Dexter Palmer
0:08:14was I don't know if he still is employed
0:08:16writing questions for the s80 yes yes oh
0:08:20well that's the thing that's where the
0:08:22question thing comes from because it's
0:08:24that process of recia ova like through
0:08:26the crucible you come up with an idea
0:08:28and it has looked up by other people and
0:08:29crunched is something that is possibly
0:08:31recognizable to your original but has to
0:08:33be acceptable to these arbiters that are
0:08:35fought far higher levels above you
0:08:38so one of the strange things about
0:08:39setting this book is that we have this
0:08:41like I said it's the early 20th century
0:08:43basically and it's the indeed the age of
0:08:46miracles has passed but now there's this
0:08:48industrial age that's led by
0:08:49industrialists and inventors like like
0:08:52prospero taligent except what what the
0:08:55event is so strange like the when when
0:08:57when young Harold Winslow well I guess
0:09:02there's a whole Willy Wonka whole
0:09:04Charlie and the Chocolate Factory thing
0:09:05happening here to where a young Harold
0:09:07slow is at a carnival where we're
0:09:09horrible things are happening to his
0:09:11sister by the way I mean there's so much
0:09:14there is too much although she's a she's
0:09:16a participant in that too
0:09:17she is she got three dollars out of it
0:09:20she should have held out for more
0:09:21according to his father three dollars in
0:09:22the tunnel of love but he passes he
0:09:26passes a test he walks away from the
0:09:28rest of the carnival one goes up into
0:09:29this viewing chamber where he these two
0:09:34guys show him the the tower and they
0:09:36showed me Miranda out on her balcony on
0:09:39the tower and and then he basically
0:09:43through this sort of like test that he
0:09:44passes which is again a very roald dahl
0:09:48kind of thing right there eight is very
0:09:50cruel test also IDK yet as a demon
0:09:53appears at his house and that's sort of
0:09:55a robotic demon that wanders into his
0:09:59house and then sparks itself there for a
0:10:02week so strange and then eventually
0:10:04wakes up unfurls its wings and flies him
0:10:08to the top of the tower it's a
0:10:10terrifying terrifying scenes and flying
0:10:13in this beautiful way or jet packs like
0:10:15it squeezes and practically the death as
0:10:17he hurtles through the aircraft to land
0:10:19in spanish on this roof unfortunately
0:10:21none of the children are killed in the
0:10:23process
0:10:23well it turns out the more ways all got
0:10:25demons and the girls all got angels and
0:10:27so that's what we're doing that had been
0:10:29Shanna no no not at all i wanted to
0:10:32bring up a really good point your Kafka
0:10:35let's bring a cop good because that's my
0:10:36release it in time for Kafka it's Africa
0:10:39it's always time for Kafka it's and I'm
0:10:42play the cop car horn it was right in
0:10:44the car before we like to mention Kafka
0:10:47actually zakappa belt so I back in high
0:10:49school teacher said to me in a class
0:10:51that in every coffee story things are
0:10:53going along normally with the exception
0:10:55of let's say the metamorphosis which the
0:10:57main character awakes to find himself
0:10:58transformed into a giant cockroach with
0:11:00the exception of that in every Kafka
0:11:02short story
0:11:03things seem sort of normal and then a
0:11:05bell rings or some transitional sound or
0:11:07thing happens and then you go into the
0:11:09mind of the unconscious and everything
0:11:11is bizarre horses come out of this tiny
0:11:13opening and whatever and so same thing
0:11:15is true like not that the world is very
0:11:16normal and 0 ville but it's this he goes
0:11:19through a door
0:11:20because he's the one who was going to go
0:11:22through that door and then his world is
0:11:24never the same like that one decision he
0:11:25made that point he took in which he sees
0:11:28unseeable things in this telescope and
0:11:30views you know this brand that
0:11:32transforms in life into what you know
0:11:34essentially plays out until the end of
0:11:36the book at the beginning and end and
0:11:38the interesting thing is that that point
0:11:40happens towards the beginning of the
0:11:42book but he the character is already
0:11:44past that point because the book is a
0:11:47flashback right so write my book
0:11:49actually begins at that point but that
0:11:51point happens happens later in the book
0:11:53at one of the one of the things i think
0:11:56appropriately enough to mention now that
0:11:58i thought was fascinating about the
0:11:59beginning of this book is that he
0:12:01discusses it
0:12:03oh just directly he discusses how this
0:12:06is the story of how he got to be himself
0:12:08and I've actually it's one of the the
0:12:10highlights that I made in this book is
0:12:12we've got decided that the only way to
0:12:15make sense of our existences is to set
0:12:17the stories of our lives down on paper
0:12:18to try to make one tale that shows how
0:12:21the 20th century turned Harold Winslow
0:12:23into Harold Winslow into Harold Winslow
0:12:27into me and how the end it's interesting
0:12:31because that's really how he views it is
0:12:32that there's the guy who's on the
0:12:34Zeppelin and he he looks back on his
0:12:37life and he said well I'm not the same
0:12:38guy who had the adventures with Miranda
0:12:41and I'm not the same guy who was the kid
0:12:42at the telescope but it is all his life
0:12:45and and I thought that was really
0:12:46interesting that he's he's talking about
0:12:48you know these are the events that that
0:12:50string together in my life and then you
0:12:53know they're chopped up almost like
0:12:54they're from different people's lives
0:12:56but they're not it's the one guy and
0:12:58that theme is further explored when a at
0:13:01the end of the book a Harold is going
0:13:04and thinking he's going to save Miranda
0:13:06and he encounters the portrait maker job
0:13:11it is to create a so prospero taligent
0:13:14who has a weird relationship with his
0:13:16daughter
0:13:17yeah just at least has hired this
0:13:21sculptor to create the perfect
0:13:23representation of Miranda right and so
0:13:27over the course of 25 years he just
0:13:29continually create sculpture after
0:13:32sculpture of
0:13:33Brenda trying to capture the perfect
0:13:36representation and he he gets one and he
0:13:38shows it to Prospero and Prospero says
0:13:41you'll get your money I'll pay you for
0:13:43what I've contracted but you have
0:13:45captured miranda is she was six months
0:13:47ago now that she is now and so that
0:13:50whole theme of kind of people changing
0:13:52and you can never freeze time you have
0:13:55to continually go forward and everyone
0:13:57keeps changing I think runs through the
0:13:59book in many ways right right although
0:14:01in the end I suppose you depending on
0:14:03how you view it you could say that they
0:14:04they did finally succeed but only a
0:14:09horrible horrible fast well I want to
0:14:11back up to the different sort of
0:14:13metaphor a mechanism all right to which
0:14:15is that you know obviously this is
0:14:17supposed to be you know he's using
0:14:19character names from the tempest from
0:14:22shakespeare's the tempest and re-do our
0:14:24listeners I'm sure are familiar with the
0:14:25play I've seen multiple productions of
0:14:27it and it's you know it's one of I think
0:14:29Shakespeare's most interesting plays
0:14:31written if i remember it was it was his
0:14:33last play was near the end of his life
0:14:35believed to be the last plane as you
0:14:36wrote by himself
0:14:37yes and it's fascinating because it's um
0:14:39it's you know it's got great it takes
0:14:41place someone island but it's got this
0:14:42great scope of of magic intensity of
0:14:45relationship to the father-daughter
0:14:46there's the dignified missing mother as
0:14:49always there's a man taking all his
0:14:52powers and throwing them away
0:14:54imagine the entire all set six seasons
0:14:57of lost squash it down to one play that
0:15:01sort of it isn't that like until the
0:15:03shed and so so probably no such a
0:15:05tempest The Tempest is an incredible
0:15:07treasure trove that authors have
0:15:09plundered and alluded to for you know
0:15:11hundreds of years you know at a
0:15:13prosperous books is a fascinating as
0:15:15peter greenaway almost unwatchable as
0:15:18most of greenways work but insightful
0:15:21into different aspects of the
0:15:22personality of the music music magician
0:15:25the Creator the snow sexual being the
0:15:28relationship of a parent child's role so
0:15:31it's this great source material and I
0:15:33think that's one of the things that I I
0:15:35think he does
0:15:36Palmer does best is he's not a slave to
0:15:39the plot of the play and as you read the
0:15:42book further you realize that this isn't
0:15:44just an accent
0:15:45it's not the the novelist dexter Palmer
0:15:48imposing his will on a narrative
0:15:51structure try to recast in fact as you
0:15:53get further in the book you realize that
0:15:55his character prospero taligent who has
0:15:58imposed his will inside of the book on
0:16:00the character asset that's a great
0:16:02conceit that we don't know if his name
0:16:04was originally pasta Prospero he does
0:16:06not recall in the book he talks at some
0:16:07point about your coming to being that
0:16:10into existence as an adult he does not
0:16:12recall having a child is not believe he
0:16:14had 1i which goes back to the whole idea
0:16:16that you you know I'm not the same
0:16:18person as that person in fact here's
0:16:20Glenn to your point they're one of the
0:16:22lines that i highlighted in the book is
0:16:24is when Harold is talking to his sister
0:16:26and he mentions prospero taligent she
0:16:30says now he probably named himself that
0:16:32he was probably a teenager looking
0:16:34through a book of Shakespeare place or
0:16:35something
0:16:36doing a homework assignment and he
0:16:37pointed his finger at a page and said
0:16:39there that's the name I want and that's
0:16:41person i'm going to pretend to be any
0:16:44called himself telligent because he
0:16:45likes failed Apple IBM joint programming
0:16:47that was my thinking yes exactly who
0:16:50doesn't
0:16:51so the play does not for my structural
0:16:53narrative now i'm in infected is get
0:16:56counter purposes with the play that the
0:16:58narrative the book and you see that this
0:16:59is part of Prospero taligent as the
0:17:02puppet master as trying to fulfill a
0:17:04destiny as a magician as creating
0:17:07himself as a magician who can accomplish
0:17:09modern miracles is the only man left
0:17:11apparently in that world who can do that
0:17:13and by doing so he's trying to reform
0:17:15the world into his own image and using
0:17:18the names like Caliban and Miranda and
0:17:20creating a giant tower that is island in
0:17:22which you can create conditions of
0:17:24nature and illusion in the room that
0:17:26Miranda plays and all of these things go
0:17:28into into that built into that that to
0:17:31the character stealing the story as
0:17:35opposed to the novelist imposing it
0:17:36right and and the critical point that
0:17:39you know so we mentioned that Harold has
0:17:42a demon appears that heralds home and
0:17:45takes them to this party and at that
0:17:47party that Prospero is having for
0:17:49Miranda he has his gift in quotes to the
0:17:53children at the party is
0:17:55a hundred children he promises that he
0:17:57will give them their hearts desire which
0:17:59is in fact not what they might want but
0:18:02what he feels that they really want
0:18:04so he tells these all the kids that well
0:18:07he's but he's right he's right it is
0:18:10treated horrible horrible stuff that the
0:18:12children can predict what if someone
0:18:13plucked that idea out of your mind and
0:18:15said the thing that you want most even
0:18:17the things you can't express you would
0:18:19never express to someone else is the
0:18:21thing that you'll get that that's a
0:18:22curse not on a reward
0:18:24yeah he's it's creepy and he he then
0:18:27proceeded to give that gift a court not
0:18:30immediately to all the children but over
0:18:32the the entire span of their lives till
0:18:34the point at which Harold is the only
0:18:37one who hasn't yet received his heart's
0:18:39desire because Prospero has something
0:18:42very particular planned for Harold which
0:18:46leads into also some of the strange
0:18:47things that happen where we see the two
0:18:48men from the telescope again and there's
0:18:51a fake kidnapping blend it
0:18:54we think it's well it is fake isn't it
0:18:55yeah there's a fake kidnapping and then
0:18:58there's a friend you know Harold just
0:19:01put in a position where he can rescue
0:19:02Miranda and and at that point in
0:19:05hindsight Prospero says that was the
0:19:07moment when you were the happiest you've
0:19:09got to make a decision to save Miranda
0:19:11and of course the sad sad irony is that
0:19:14he didn't make any decisions
0:19:17it was completely fabricated it felt as
0:19:21if the entire thing is setup and yet
0:19:23that's his that's his happiest moment is
0:19:25when he finally made a decision to save
0:19:27her and he wasn't saving her and it
0:19:29wasn't really his decision to make but
0:19:31there's that moment where he sort of
0:19:32hesitates and his is pondering making
0:19:35that decision that the prosper later
0:19:36says that that was your moment he
0:19:38hesitates for a full five minutes while
0:19:41the guys are like stalling in the other
0:19:43room and arguing with each other
0:19:46another thing in that in a sort of
0:19:48latter part of the of the novel that i
0:19:50thought was fascinating was the idea
0:19:51that the there's a a rebellion against
0:19:56prosper intelligent and his creations
0:19:58we're a bunch of guys dress up like
0:20:00mechanical men but they're not there
0:20:02guys in mechanical men outfits and then
0:20:04I just going to be making of the Tin Man
0:20:06yeah I killed those disgusting people up
0:20:08it's like mobs of guys dressed up like
0:20:10the Tin Man beating the crap out of
0:20:12everybody and handwriting sorcerers
0:20:15apprentice thing like intelligent
0:20:17creates this role for his men to create
0:20:20this you know it's almost like colleges
0:20:21doing you know murder mysteries a
0:20:24for-hire like he gets his staff to to
0:20:28act out the roles he's doing it but he
0:20:30doesn't actually I think about it he's
0:20:32got people acting out rules all the time
0:20:33and every story prospero taligent is a
0:20:36storyteller even though in the book what
0:20:38he does is he's creating machinery and
0:20:41wealth and manipulating things but
0:20:43that's true in the play to that Prospero
0:20:45tell stories his words have power become
0:20:48reality because he is the magician same
0:20:50role here just with technology instead
0:20:52of ostensibly instead of magic but so
0:20:54Prospero you know sets these men a task
0:20:56but then one of them gets the idea that
0:20:58this is what it should be that he's lost
0:21:00sight of these it doesn't even matter
0:21:01anymore whether he's playing the role or
0:21:04it's real it has become real he's
0:21:06transcended this role that was given to
0:21:08him and he creates this mass movement
0:21:10even while Prospero is telling another
0:21:12story that drives people insane when and
0:21:15angers the entire world against him on
0:21:17you've got you've got so Prospero tells
0:21:20his story we have this book which is the
0:21:23story as told by harold as he's writing
0:21:27it while he's on the Zeppelin he Harold
0:21:30himself that is sort of viewed as a
0:21:32failed writer who wanted to be a wanted
0:21:36to be a novelist and told that 222
0:21:39Prospero at the birthday party but he
0:21:42ends up being a greeting card writer
0:21:44instead and and then with all that going
0:21:48on there's also this other funny moment
0:21:50where at one point at a particularly
0:21:53dreadful party
0:21:55Harold is introduced to another young
0:21:57gentleman who wants to be a writer named
0:21:59dexter Palmer all right right with this
0:22:04very post tedious being afraid
0:22:07incredibly boring yes if I don't I love
0:22:11that I you know that say i love the
0:22:13that's like the literary equivalent of
0:22:15alfred hitchcock appearing in a cameo
0:22:18and is in this bill but i love that Paul
0:22:20summer is merciless to his namesake in'
0:22:23in the book he's a just an incredibly
0:22:26boring college guy that has nothing
0:22:29interesting to say and that everybody is
0:22:30trying to get away from and i would like
0:22:33to talk about women will be talking
0:22:34about women
0:22:35oh my sweet that's why everybody does a
0:22:37podcast right as is to talk about women
0:22:39actually well I won't talk about the
0:22:41generative function i want to be all you
0:22:43know deconstructionist 90 days lit crit
0:22:46type but not precisely but I don't want
0:22:48to talk about you don't want to talk
0:22:49about the themes of the above
0:22:51storytellers in the writers or you know
0:22:52we we covered that so i can check that
0:22:54box is checked that one up now we can
0:22:56talk without generating function
0:22:57generator function is usually assigned
0:22:59to him even though it is a writer Lee
0:23:00thing right
0:23:01Prospero being the magician in the play
0:23:03in in the tempest Prospero has to defeat
0:23:06that was sicker acts which kills her and
0:23:09or puts her locks into it no kills her
0:23:11sort of steals her son who is then hates
0:23:14him his daughter Miranda supplants
0:23:17Caliban was this awful creature and Iran
0:23:20is pretty and Prospero has taken the
0:23:22generative function from the witch and
0:23:23now as a male has sort of two generative
0:23:25functions is the function of magic and
0:23:27he has the you know literal organ of
0:23:29generation right so I'm being very
0:23:31liquid but it's true and I think I
0:23:32wouldn't argue that Palmer's influenced
0:23:34by some of these same ideas because in
0:23:36the book there are no mothers of course
0:23:37Winslow's mother is gone
0:23:40she's been transformed his father tells
0:23:41these insane stories we have to turn
0:23:44into a pillar of salt but she probably
0:23:46just ran away his sister is crazy
0:23:50his sister's friends are insane and
0:23:52ultimately lead to her spoiler horn
0:23:55right spoiler letters of eyes
0:23:57yes sort of and you can talk about this
0:23:59book without spoilers
0:24:00yeah there's also put in her answer has
0:24:02no mother ostensibly we don't know of
0:24:04any mother she's adopted and Miranda
0:24:06herself is an incredibly odd duck as a
0:24:08woman she's not allowed to express her
0:24:10generating function so there's all of
0:24:12this like there's no women all the women
0:24:14are crazy or all the women are being
0:24:15suppressed me Lock this little girl
0:24:17pattern and then I find one of most
0:24:19interesting underdeveloped characters in
0:24:21the book is Ophelia one of his
0:24:22co-workers I was gonna send ya a little
0:24:25feeling she's like six foot tall and
0:24:27beautiful and creative and she's the
0:24:28only
0:24:29the optimistic person in the book right
0:24:31so impressed with any hope and as a
0:24:34result they're sort of ridiculous even
0:24:35though she could have this marvelous
0:24:37like she's in the wrong time cityplace
0:24:39novel and she's she's also she repels
0:24:42the advances of the idiot men who she
0:24:45works with and and yeah when you
0:24:47mentioned we mentioned no women in the
0:24:48book I was gonna say well there is a
0:24:50filia and she's you know speaking of
0:24:52characters named for Shakespeare plays
0:24:55and but she's and she's not like the
0:24:58other female characters and it's not
0:25:00like anybody else in the book basically
0:25:02that's true she's awesome i love you i
0:25:04like the book of her life and positive
0:25:06novel in which there's creativity and
0:25:08she's living a I want all the history of
0:25:10affiliate because she is interesting I
0:25:11mean that is part of the problem with
0:25:13the novel for me is that is that you
0:25:15start out ice usually start when i read
0:25:17a book I whether it's nonfiction and
0:25:19fiction i assume there will likely be
0:25:21interesting characters and possibly
0:25:22likable ones but when i finish this book
0:25:25I wasn't sure that I liked except for
0:25:26feel perhaps anybody in it at all and
0:25:29and that I always find that disturbing
0:25:30phenomenon that I get to the end I'm
0:25:32like oh I really wasn't even the where
0:25:34my sympathies were with one of the other
0:25:35like Winslow is such an antihero that I
0:25:38don't even like him at the end really
0:25:40not much Scott are you blown away by the
0:25:44lens analysis I I beach less I was
0:25:47trying to think if there are any
0:25:49characters in the book that I like I
0:25:51mean I like I kind of like prospero
0:25:54taligent even though I know he's not
0:25:56you're not supposed to like him but I
0:25:59feel sorry for him and like him at the
0:26:01same time because he wants to he spent
0:26:03so much time building the future and
0:26:06then he decides and this has been
0:26:09probably good and so he wants to be
0:26:11frozen for a hundred years it in a
0:26:14machine that he builds around by
0:26:17sacrificing his daughter but the machine
0:26:20is failing so his lifework is amounts to
0:26:24nothing and one assumes at the end
0:26:27Harold tells us that hairline cracks are
0:26:30appearing around the glass that in
0:26:31pieces the the frozen body uh Prospero
0:26:35so you you know that it
0:26:37things are not going to end well for
0:26:38anybody so it's kind of sad that he
0:26:41spent so much time trying to improve the
0:26:42world and he does he I don't be improved
0:26:46and nobody tried to any kind of turns it
0:26:48into this this horrible place that no
0:26:51one is happy and and you know
0:26:54mechanical men are going running rampant
0:26:56and all the mobs of the mobs of the fake
0:26:59mechanical man are reaching the rooftop
0:27:01of his tower so that basically people
0:27:03are rebelling against his technology as
0:27:05he's wants to depart on the Zeppelin but
0:27:07he asked to be shot dead first so that
0:27:10he can then be cryogenically frozen when
0:27:13you see and it's all I've it's all
0:27:15falling apart but in the end the
0:27:17perpetual motion machine is running down
0:27:19its not a perpetual motion machine in
0:27:22the end his his cryogenic chamber is
0:27:25failing so it all it you know it all
0:27:28comes apart 44 prosper despite all of
0:27:31his best intense
0:27:32oh and we should mention his other
0:27:33creation Caliban who is basically before
0:27:37before that I want to start us back to
0:27:39the generative function thing is that
0:27:40yes please let's see that they've been
0:27:42met with Mencius ok so this is no but
0:27:44this is I think this is intended i mean
0:27:46there's a lot of a whip cream style
0:27:48stuff in the books I think he's trying
0:27:50to get a reading that is something like
0:27:51this when you know it when prosperous
0:27:54seizes the generative function right
0:27:55he's gotten you know women produce
0:27:56babies men are supposed to start the
0:27:58process and that's it in the most
0:28:00superficial way can render that right
0:28:02and Prospero taligent by having sees
0:28:05that function bye-bye to generate
0:28:07everything generates is imperfect he
0:28:09cannot create his childhood officer he
0:28:11cannot create perfection of her he must
0:28:12destroy her to create his wrong in
0:28:15perfect vision his dynamos fail his
0:28:17Zeppelin fails his plans ultimately come
0:28:20to not because as a man he's not allowed
0:28:22to create things that are new
0:28:24I mean that's the structure which allows
0:28:25criticism occurs in and I think that's
0:28:27intentional that he lacks the you know
0:28:30empathy he lacks not just love women
0:28:32feelings but he lacks the component
0:28:34there's no partnership with it he is a
0:28:36Dominator he's trying to take control is
0:28:37trying to seize from nature or whatever
0:28:39and it is inevitably going to fail as a
0:28:41result and I mean that's set up also
0:28:43early in the book
0:28:44hair hat Harold is listening to a radio
0:28:47in his bed and he's flipping through
0:28:51channels and we hear bits and pieces of
0:28:53the broadcast and one of the broadcast
0:28:55is coming from the top of television
0:28:57tower where Prospero is unveiling a an
0:29:01airship that he thinks they've gotten
0:29:03the kinks worked out of and so the mayor
0:29:06is 0v land like mrs. 0 billboard the the
0:29:10aircraft and you know pageantry and it
0:29:13then explodes and jeans they are all
0:29:16died and prospers like my bad
0:29:18so hehe forgotten already
0:29:22yeah it's not good in there other was
0:29:27onnn in that same scene there is on the
0:29:30radio there's an interview where a
0:29:32presenter is talking to some scientists
0:29:34and he's like oh we've just created this
0:29:36drink that you drink and it will give
0:29:38you a full meal and you don't have to
0:29:39worry and the woman's like oh that's
0:29:41amazing and so she drinks it and she
0:29:42says is I taste the steak and the guys
0:29:45like oh yeah that's what you're supposed
0:29:46to taste and she says oh I feel so full
0:29:48and the scientists like yes it works
0:29:51well and then she says oh my god
0:29:53physical / full what have you done to me
0:29:56that the transmission ends which i think
0:29:59is very well really wanna thank you
0:30:01Willy Wonka again we're getting you know
0:30:03it's not that not accidental
0:30:05no no notnot there's definitely that yet
0:30:08again failure you know nature trying to
0:30:10subvert nature the failure you cannot
0:30:12make things you can even there's a
0:30:13tyrosine and typesetting shop near and
0:30:15dear to my heart of course
0:30:16so even though they have the internet
0:30:18there apparently still setting type by
0:30:19hand which i love with LED type so it's
0:30:22great contrasts even though i may be
0:30:24doing that in a classroom taking right
0:30:26now I'm doing that purposely not as a
0:30:28commercial venture and I robot is
0:30:30ironically i've seen you contributed
0:30:32ironically when my fingers are crushed
0:30:34in the rollers those are ironic fingers
0:30:36being crushed by the spread of
0:30:38Technology March the midst of the scene
0:30:40with the keys where Harold job is to sit
0:30:43there to make sure that typesetting
0:30:44metal men don't go insane or berserk
0:30:46while they're doing routine projects
0:30:48overnight is many tunes and here's
0:30:51Miranda broadcasting but again it's like
0:30:53it's just this nothing can be nothing
0:30:56goes right in the book even you know
0:30:58television hasn't really improved
0:30:59everyone's life in fact he sort of
0:31:01increasingly ruined everyone's life in
0:31:03the world by automating functions that
0:31:05were performed by
0:31:06fuckers that now I have no jobs and he's
0:31:09not seen as a force of good not just
0:31:10that he's evil and I sort of beyond
0:31:13morality by being you know and so in
0:31:15charge of things but he's just not
0:31:17actually really helping anybody not even
0:31:18himself in the end and to get a title of
0:31:22the book not to bring it all the way
0:31:23around to that but it's the dream of
0:31:26perpetual motion right and it right away
0:31:28we're told that the perpetual motion
0:31:30machine is probably although it's been
0:31:33promised no no it's a professional
0:31:35motion machine it really it's gonna just
0:31:36keep on running
0:31:37Harold is up there in this episode
0:31:39saying it's not know I'm getting closer
0:31:41to the ground here so it that the very
0:31:44dream of perpetual motion is a failure
0:31:46it and it is the sort of cat the
0:31:49crowning achievement of Prospero
0:31:51intelligence high aspirations and
0:31:55bandaged it is the crowning failure of
0:31:58his life
0:31:59oh i think there's a mystery encoded in
0:32:01that part 2 I wanted to ask you fellows
0:32:02because somewhere around two-thirds away
0:32:05in the book uh there's a point at which
0:32:07the book i think becomes enormously
0:32:09better become sort of an action story
0:32:10and I and I really zoom through the rest
0:32:12of the book at that point I think it's
0:32:14about this point it's 10 years before
0:32:16the Zeppelin's seen if i'm remembering
0:32:18right and I the there's a report that
0:32:21comes out this is a prospectus
0:32:23television just told the staff of his
0:32:24company that he is working on you know
0:32:25devoting his aims to creating a
0:32:27perpetual motion machine and was
0:32:29thinking machines machines really fought
0:32:31and remembering that right i don't
0:32:32remember but I think these are key
0:32:33points because at the end of the book as
0:32:35is revealed
0:32:36Harold believes that Miranda has been
0:32:39transformed she's been physically
0:32:40transformed by a process is want to
0:32:42describe because words are killing
0:32:45things that by describing he destroys
0:32:46the thing that's been created again with
0:32:49you know the generative sup and so she
0:32:52may be the perpetual motion machine and
0:32:54although she is running down we don't
0:32:55know about what process she works but I
0:32:57thought part of it was hidden in there
0:32:59was the announcement that was made a
0:33:01leak from inside the company i assumed
0:33:03from the very first moment I open this
0:33:05book when i first read about Miranda
0:33:07being extensively bodyless he cannot
0:33:09find his don't know where she's in the
0:33:10Zeppelin she's talking continuously
0:33:12without cease and he will not speak to
0:33:15her when it will read that part of like
0:33:16oh well prosper is probably turned into
0:33:18her into some kind of
0:33:19machine brain and she's running the
0:33:21Zeppelin that's the great secret and at
0:33:23the end of the book i was like maybe not
0:33:25like well maybe that was what supposed
0:33:27to be intense she's not only become this
0:33:28creature that is beyond description that
0:33:31maybe breathe hydrogen for all Harold
0:33:33knows or understands but that she is
0:33:35also mechanical what do you think about
0:33:37that my reading too much in it does
0:33:39create a mechanical Miranda when they're
0:33:42uh here since the playroom right and
0:33:45Harold Miranda play together in this
0:33:47playroom and Harold's favorite part is
0:33:50when so Prospero also has sentence
0:33:53mechanical monsters in for them to fight
0:33:55in you know so they can pretend to fight
0:33:57him and Harold protects Miranda and at
0:34:01one point Harold comes across Miranda
0:34:04and she's crying and she says don't
0:34:05touch me don't touch me and she's
0:34:06ripping out her hair and bleeding all
0:34:08over and Harold doesn't know what to do
0:34:10and then Miranda peeks out from behind a
0:34:13tree and says silly you were trying to
0:34:14save the monster has a great moment so I
0:34:18mean clearly he could have created a
0:34:20mechanical Miranda and but it will take
0:34:23it wherever Miranda came from though I
0:34:24mean by the end she is essentially his
0:34:27creation because he's right he's really
0:34:29he's taken her apart and turned her into
0:34:31the dr his his ultimate intention them
0:34:34at the perpetual motion machine which
0:34:37which is you know his control he doesn't
0:34:39want to change he doesn't want to become
0:34:40a woman that doesn't go so well and so
0:34:44then he he decides he's gonna transform
0:34:46her into something else which you know
0:34:48apparently doesn't go so well either
0:34:50although Glenn it's something you
0:34:52mentioned you know the way the bookends
0:34:55is that Harold starts he says hello to
0:34:58Miranda right which has refused to speak
0:34:59to her the entire time and that's all
0:35:02she wants so there is that question to
0:35:04at the end is is you know is that a is
0:35:08that important is that a transformative
0:35:10act that that may be what's going on in
0:35:12the Zeppelin you know is happening
0:35:15because he refuses to speak to her and
0:35:16acknowledge her presence
0:35:17oh so that's a very good i hadn't
0:35:19thought about that she's running down
0:35:20because right that you need the
0:35:22interplay that's my prosper wanted him
0:35:24on board he didn't need Harold to be on
0:35:26board he wanted to fill his dream but
0:35:28he'd already sorted fulfilled
0:35:30is you know dearest wish earlier sort of
0:35:32what he says the happiest you've been I
0:35:34mean I like the whole bit more
0:35:35prosperous halogen says I'm not giving
0:35:37you what you want i'm giving you it was
0:35:39he says I'm not giving you something
0:35:42makes you happy i'm giving you what you
0:35:43want which is that for ya
0:35:46praying everything so prosperous setup
0:35:48that Harold doesn't want to save Miranda
0:35:51he wants that moment where he's about to
0:35:54save marantz right and so that's why
0:35:56he's on the Zeppelin he can never find
0:35:58her
0:35:58he knows she's there oh he's always been
0:36:00continually exactly
0:36:02well it is also by the way the
0:36:04mechanical thing I was thinking there's
0:36:06a part when he and the portrait maker
0:36:08prosper in the portrait maker are
0:36:10setting 18 months disassembling
0:36:12physically disassembling Brandon doing
0:36:14terrible things to her as they say he
0:36:17says at some point the portrait maker
0:36:18describes prosperous saying like well
0:36:20now now you have FX about the
0:36:22information sent matrix you know mean
0:36:24essentially the brain and I'm thinking
0:36:26well that's the point at which they have
0:36:28eliminated her that they've you know
0:36:29they've disassembled Miranda the point
0:36:31that they have removed to her brain
0:36:33maybe they digitize that maybe they've
0:36:35done something but that's inevitable we
0:36:37don't know but where is transformed into
0:36:39something different i'm thinking that
0:36:40it's not something as simple as he made
0:36:41her an Android but he took her out of
0:36:44the realm of you know pure physicality
0:36:46to transcend into you know this flying
0:36:50machine whatever it does being the
0:36:52impossible perpetual motion machine and
0:36:55I think you know thinking about this now
0:36:56Prospero has spent his entire life
0:36:58changing the world so that he could stop
0:37:02it right because everything he wants to
0:37:04stop Miranda from growing up and he
0:37:05wants to stop himself from dying so he's
0:37:08constantly using change in order to
0:37:11freeze a moment in time
0:37:13that's very good I have a degree in
0:37:15English Oh Bravo my degree is in
0:37:18pretentiousness kid yourself Martin
0:37:21upside-down arts I'm sorry
0:37:23same thing so as the guy with the
0:37:27communication degree i will not
0:37:29communicate to you in this book know
0:37:31this book is is is hard rowing at some
0:37:34points right i mean i-i would find that
0:37:36it was I would read a chapter and i
0:37:39would still have 20 more minutes on my
0:37:41bus ride and i would say to myself I
0:37:43I can't read another chapter oh good you
0:37:452i I the hardest time getting through
0:37:47the first two-thirds to three-quarters
0:37:48on this book it it wasn't as if i was
0:37:51having a hard time reading the chapter
0:37:53it's just after a chapter was complete
0:37:55they were so much in it and I felt
0:37:57almost exhausted like I can't
0:37:59ya know I can't do more of this right
0:38:01now because it's it's you know it's very
0:38:03dense at points i think actually
0:38:06beautifully written although at that
0:38:09point that you could argue over written
0:38:10but I i but i really liked that he was
0:38:14you know it it's not often you read a
0:38:17book that that where the author is
0:38:19trying so hard to write interesting
0:38:22things in interesting ways and I really
0:38:24appreciated it and at moments I was
0:38:26really taken by the beauty of what he
0:38:28was writing just the way he was writing
0:38:29it but I would you know it was so it was
0:38:32not a slog in the sense that i was in
0:38:33the middle of a chapter and I with my
0:38:35eyes are crossing and I just couldn't
0:38:36bear to go on and I get to the end and
0:38:37be like wow I need to I i'm not going to
0:38:40read another one till tomorrow because I
0:38:42need to take a little break and think
0:38:43about what I just what i just read so
0:38:46that goes on and you end and it does
0:38:48pick up as you go I think that's true
0:38:50Glenn that that that things start to
0:38:51move a little bit faster i kept waiting
0:38:53for more Zeppelin I wanted you know it's
0:38:55me I wanted more Zeppelin's but then at
0:38:59the very end when you're reaching the
0:39:01climax and it's literally as Harold is
0:39:03climbing to the top of the tower that we
0:39:05have these two encounters the giant male
0:39:08tower i'm sorry the message any member
0:39:10of your piercing the sky its you have a
0:39:12sec you'll and yes we got it back
0:39:15I didn't get that uh they he's trying to
0:39:17make the boy Palmer we're uh so so he's
0:39:20ascending it the tower and we have these
0:39:22two encounters with these guys who tell
0:39:25stories and they're kinda long they're
0:39:27fascinating but there they basically the
0:39:29plot is paused so that we can go back in
0:39:31time from a different perspective and
0:39:33you've mentioned the one which is the
0:39:35portrait maker who creates these
0:39:37sculptures and then eventually aids and
0:39:39abets Prospero in the modification of
0:39:41Miranda into the perpetual motion
0:39:43machine but there's also the guy who
0:39:45works in like the coal pit
0:39:47oh my god alone is not controlled fish
0:39:50floor yet the coal pit being of course
0:39:52at the top of the building a sensible
0:39:53place orders from or something that's
0:39:55where you would put
0:39:56the culture i put i put all of my yeah
0:39:59kool my smoke like probably workers are
0:40:03always on the hunt Rossler i'm not on
0:40:05the top floors of the building but
0:40:06anyway it that when we haven't talked
0:40:08about that that's another I mean you
0:40:10know you grind the story to hold a
0:40:12little bit to a halt
0:40:14but that was that story seems to be
0:40:17basically the story of the room the
0:40:20truth of Miranda at least as much of a
0:40:23truth is Miranda was allowed to have
0:40:25which is but she has these repeated
0:40:28sexual liaisons with the the guy who
0:40:31works in the coal fire pit room whatever
0:40:35it is and i thought it was interesting
0:40:37that we we hear that story and then we
0:40:39hear the story about you know the the
0:40:42perfectionist vision of Prospero and how
0:40:46he wants to have Miranda appear and it's
0:40:49preceded by the story that's really the
0:40:51real down-and-dirty story of a guy who's
0:40:53you know covered in coal dust and and
0:40:55this girl comes to him and they take a
0:40:57tumble in the in the piles of coal and
0:40:59how over and over again covered in cold
0:41:02and it's just sort of fascinating under
0:41:03rid of a hot sex scene about making love
0:41:06on a cold mountain that's pretty
0:41:08you haven't you haven't lived checkin
0:41:10there are many men who have a call here
0:41:13comal tax check finally I can check that
0:41:16one off the Zeppelin's and the coal
0:41:18mound sex scene home if that doesn't get
0:41:21you to buy this book I don't know what's
0:41:23going on hey we missed a if I may
0:41:25interject as having to do a stream talk
0:41:28about Astrid liaison III she's on my
0:41:30list it so Harold sister Astrid who is a
0:41:33an artist like a performance artist who
0:41:36is like Ariel Ariel from the play that's
0:41:39the sprite the magical sprite in the
0:41:41play right well done well played okay
0:41:43thank you
0:41:44and she's an artist and she's surrounded
0:41:47she's surrounded by absolutely horrible
0:41:49horrible coast of RT people and actually
0:41:53i loved i love those scenes and they
0:41:55they can make your eyes cross because he
0:41:59doesn't just say you know they said its
0:42:01usual pretentious crap that people say
0:42:03that these things he has the pages of
0:42:05dialogue of the pretentious crap he
0:42:08writes the pretentious craft for this
0:42:09and it's it's and i loved it because it
0:42:12made me laugh so much because I went to
0:42:14I I like i said i have a communication
0:42:16degree and it's the kind of degree you
0:42:18get when you hear people talk like the
0:42:20people in ad asteroids party and I
0:42:23actually if I can if I can quote from it
0:42:26briefly Glenn if you only on me but I
0:42:28just point out your art communications
0:42:30and english i think each of us knows
0:42:32precisely the particular flavor of bull
0:42:35yes yes involved but accidents doing
0:42:37here is liberating language from the
0:42:39patriarchy is this how critics talk
0:42:41Harold's idea of an art critic of
0:42:43someone who wanders through a gallery in
0:42:44waves his arm in the general direction
0:42:45of a painting while saying notice the
0:42:47diagonal Astrid Charmaine says uh to
0:42:52Harold realizes that we live in a world
0:42:54in which and enduring patriarchal
0:42:56hegemony there's my favorite word from
0:42:58comm class has transformed the woman's
0:43:01voice into a commodity x reprimanding
0:43:04her own language and giving it a body as
0:43:05Astrid has done here she embraces that
0:43:07patriarchal desire to commodify while
0:43:10subversively reaping the benefits of
0:43:12that commodification oh that is so
0:43:15perfect it's also accurate if you strip
0:43:17all the other individuals from it's not
0:43:19a description it's not BS i mean it is
0:43:21it is it is phrased in the right
0:43:24language and yet she's not saying
0:43:25nonsense she is saying exactly what
0:43:27astronauts doing so asteroids art ends
0:43:30up being something that she sort of
0:43:32lifts from Harold in their conversation
0:43:35in the silence bar which we also should
0:43:38talk about this bar but before we get to
0:43:40the silence bar it's fast because she
0:43:42ends up building
0:43:43eh-eh-eh-eh sound sound sculpture
0:43:48because Carol goes on this rant that you
0:43:50know again I mean there's so much here
0:43:51that we keep we keep bouncing around he
0:43:53goes on this rant about sounds and how
0:43:55there are more sounds and every day as
0:43:57the industry creates new things that
0:43:59there are more sounds at some point he's
0:44:01concerned that that all the sounds will
0:44:03cancel each other out and then we'll be
0:44:05billions of machines everywhere and it
0:44:08will be completely silent because it's
0:44:10nothing but noise and chance he wants to
0:44:13shut out all the sound that's a kind of
0:44:14a go a theme here that's how he goes up
0:44:17in the telescope it will escape the
0:44:18noise of the heart
0:44:20Prospero calls back to that when he says
0:44:21this is how you get away from the noise
0:44:22myself one is perfectly quiet and of
0:44:26course over time that breaks down the
0:44:27noise creeps into the supplement to as
0:44:29the perpetual motion machine and as the
0:44:31Harold Harold has a series of recurring
0:44:33nightmares where the virgin queen is
0:44:36going to commit suicide and he only he
0:44:39can save her and then the first dream he
0:44:41supposed to say the exact word that will
0:44:43save her but it can't think of the word
0:44:45and then the second iteration of the
0:44:47dream she's at the edge
0:44:49he's about to say something he's trying
0:44:52to say something to her and then he
0:44:53notices an exact a negative of himself
0:44:57who is saying what he's saying backwards
0:45:00and canceling it out so that virgin
0:45:03queen cannot hear anything
0:45:04well in that you know Astros is pre
0:45:07capitulating to get recapitulated she is
0:45:09auntie capitulating what happens to
0:45:11miranda is that it although but asteroid
0:45:14has the means of our own destruction
0:45:15your own hands and she regrets it
0:45:17ostensibly that she you know she she
0:45:20uses the pizza delivery guy which I love
0:45:22again the mail setting action into
0:45:24motion
0:45:24yes I wasn't coming also let's also talk
0:45:26about how I i love the the as we have
0:45:29all pretentious and lick lick pretty
0:45:31here
0:45:32the unpretentious thing that kicks off
0:45:36the pretentious suicidal our experiment
0:45:38is she orders a pizza and I think it's a
0:45:41delivery boy opens the door and kills
0:45:43her and sets off the whole thing and i
0:45:45love that juxtaposition that's so great
0:45:47that it's just this you know Pete kind
0:45:48of a well he's kind of hot for her knee
0:45:51it and he's really excited to meet her
0:45:54and and then he opened the door and she
0:45:56dies but in that's the thing is that the
0:45:58AI I think that's sort of part of the
0:45:59asteroid is brilliant also is like
0:46:01Astrid well i guess i should ask you to
0:46:03feel you because you know i should say
0:46:05that's funny i was saying originally
0:46:07there are no you know there's very few
0:46:09women in this book but all that Miranda
0:46:11astron filia are all aspects and all
0:46:13fascinating Astra's hoot because she's
0:46:16slightly insane she speaks the truth
0:46:17she's does things that are unacceptable
0:46:19and she just doesn't matter is what she
0:46:21means to do so when she built this
0:46:23unbelievable contraption that's what
0:46:25that's what do cancel noise out creates
0:46:28this thing and then then burns her alive
0:46:30encasing her in bronze
0:46:31at the same time and she's freezes the
0:46:34moment right the noise stops and she
0:46:36stops aging she's even internally
0:46:38preserved in the same form because his
0:46:41bronze cheating on bronze point Pope
0:46:43poured over her and she's permanently
0:46:45fixed ok so here's my question i read
0:46:48this a few times and I can't tell i'm
0:46:50sure maybe just meant for it to be
0:46:51ambiguous I don't say that there is an
0:46:52answer but you know her pretentious
0:46:55friend tells the police she said I don't
0:46:57have the phrase that better be the
0:46:58smiling but buttered spleen right isn't
0:47:01that what she says right and the police
0:47:03say well the pizza delivery guy said she
0:47:05said stop the machine
0:47:07yes meeting stop the sense that she
0:47:09regretted did she get some friends
0:47:11locked into the cabin how is that my rat
0:47:13here for hours with her but she told the
0:47:16police the delivery guy to come in so my
0:47:18question is did she regretted the last
0:47:20moment over to your friends kill her
0:47:22I I the way I read it is that she
0:47:24regretted at the last minute like
0:47:25anybody would it's the it's that you
0:47:28know she comes up with this great idea
0:47:29but face at the moment of her own death
0:47:31she begs to not die and it's too late
0:47:34the the art world is looking on and it's
0:47:37time for her performance butter lean and
0:47:40that becomes part of the performance
0:47:42right that'll load up so doesn't it but
0:47:44it's clean now
0:47:46oh that reminds you that I I wonder
0:47:50myself so let's talk about the salad bar
0:47:52if you don't mind I was that let us know
0:47:54another nice another nice thing the they
0:47:57go to a dingo part of town where people
0:47:59don't communicate is that is that right
0:48:01except no you're not but poorly right
0:48:04that they communicate with written and
0:48:08hand gestures right is that it yeah and
0:48:10I think that's it's the whole idea again
0:48:12of that the people want to escape the
0:48:13constant sounds that are around them so
0:48:16you go to the silent bar so they don't
0:48:18have to hear one another but then Astrid
0:48:21wanders in and just starts talking
0:48:23really loudly and and everybody is
0:48:25looking at her and is offended but but
0:48:27Harold's got his little pile of cards
0:48:30and he starts drawing around and and and
0:48:32and that ends up being the source of her
0:48:34inspiration for the for the art project
0:48:37but first she's first she takes the
0:48:39cards and then turns it into a paintings
0:48:41or statements right which is what gets
0:48:43her the show to start with
0:48:44right right that where he meets dexter
0:48:47Palmer be perfect and here's all the
0:48:49pretentious dialogue about asteroids are
0:48:51you know it's funny as we talked about
0:48:53this book I like this book more
0:48:54unpacking it into all of its component
0:48:57elements much as if I were redesigning
0:48:59Miranda to suit my own images then I did
0:49:02when actually reading and i think i just
0:49:04want to ask if you either of you enjoyed
0:49:07this book or if you liked it i should
0:49:09say that's a good question gland did you
0:49:12did you like I mean I've already said
0:49:14that it was a bit of a trial at times
0:49:16for me to get through a chapter and then
0:49:18i have to take a break but did you like
0:49:20reading it I did not enjoy reading the
0:49:22book until we got to the last like i was
0:49:24saying last quarter so and then i zoom
0:49:26through that it felt like a different
0:49:27book even though informant was the same
0:49:30but i think he finally had to set all
0:49:32the machinery in is I think the first
0:49:33three quarters of the book he's building
0:49:36the mechanism
0:49:36I'm sorry I'm being so pretentious on
0:49:38his pockets he's building convective and
0:49:40he's putting all the clockwork into
0:49:41position and telling us all the pieces
0:49:43that have to come together and you're
0:49:44sitting there wondering when does this
0:49:46whole watch start ticking or does it
0:49:47fall to the floor as a bunch of gears
0:49:49and then once that sets the emotions and
0:49:51i'm like i zoom through i mean i think
0:49:53it took me five or six week literally in
0:49:55like several page increments to get
0:49:57first through the first three quarters
0:49:58and the last part i read in a you know
0:50:00an hour to so I I wouldn't say I like
0:50:03reading it but I'm i like thinking about
0:50:05the book more after having read it then
0:50:07I did Rita you know interpreting it
0:50:09while i read it
0:50:10yeah i think i would say the same thing
0:50:13is that is that while I was reading it I
0:50:14really enjoyed the writing it's not
0:50:16every book i read it's actually pretty
0:50:18rare that I sit there and I think wow
0:50:19this is you know this is beautifully
0:50:22written and that was really what I kept
0:50:23thinking is this is a weird book but
0:50:25it's kind of beautiful and the and the
0:50:26writing is beautiful and the setting is
0:50:28so detailed and strange there it is a
0:50:31little off-putting and the characters
0:50:33are kind of off-putting and like i said
0:50:34i add it was so dense at times that I
0:50:36felt like I needed to take a break and
0:50:38not just kind of go to the next chapter
0:50:40but I needed to actually like decompress
0:50:42a little bit before i can and unpack
0:50:44what I just read before I could move on
0:50:47which is much more of the kind of I
0:50:48think you get that from a book that you
0:50:50were assigned in college and a little
0:50:52class it is that kind of feeling of this
0:50:54is not just a page-turner this there's a
0:50:56lot of stuff going on here
0:50:57but in the end i did like it and you
0:50:59know what I told my wife i was reading
0:51:01it is i'm reading this crazy book but
0:51:03it's kind of beautiful but it's really
0:51:05really strange not like anything I've
0:51:08really ever read although it's got
0:51:10pieces of the bunch of different stuff
0:51:11right all the way down to two charlie
0:51:13and the chocolate factory so I too liked
0:51:16it
0:51:16Scott what about you well I think that
0:51:19it was so I read it when it like a
0:51:22couple months after first came out last
0:51:23so probably about a year ago today in
0:51:26fact and i thought it was the best book
0:51:28I've read all year i really enjoyed it
0:51:32and I do not read books generally just
0:51:36because I don't but I in preparation for
0:51:40this podcast i reread about 75% of the
0:51:43book and I enjoyed it even more
0:51:45I i think that it is just that I think
0:51:49it's a great book but i don't and i
0:51:50recommend it to people but kind of Edo
0:51:53yeah haha hesitantly because i don't
0:51:56think that it is for everyone
0:51:58like I told my wife she had to read it
0:52:00and she read the first like 10 pages and
0:52:03said I'm not reading this book i think
0:52:05they had more dead than just fair i read
0:52:07this book for you Scott I read this book
0:52:09for you
0:52:09Thank You Glenn but I really really
0:52:13liked it
0:52:14yes well I i liked it i I definitely did
0:52:18like it but it is a challenge and it is
0:52:19not the kind of book I yeah that i would
0:52:22recommend for somebody who just wants a
0:52:24fun book to read I only if you want a
0:52:26fun book to read
0:52:26don't read this pie i'm glad that you
0:52:28suggested it though because it is also
0:52:29not the kind of book i'll often stop and
0:52:31get stalled in books like this like I
0:52:32did and the notion that we're actually
0:52:34to talk about it made me read it and I'm
0:52:35glad I did I mean even books and I hate
0:52:37and sometimes often glad i read because
0:52:40if they give me fodder for thought
0:52:41that's good enough but I love with new
0:52:43ideas new ways picking this book I
0:52:45certainly found fascinating even if I
0:52:46couldn't say exactly like it so I think
0:52:48thank you Scott it's the very definition
0:52:50of a good book club book it's the kind
0:52:52of book that you need to be I think
0:52:53maybe motivated to read a little bit and
0:52:56then have the promise of being able to
0:52:57kind of discuss it and unpack it with a
0:52:59group later because it really i think
0:53:02benefits from walking through all of the
0:53:05different things like we have done here
0:53:06i think i think it really helps because
0:53:08there is so much in there and if you
0:53:10just kind of flip through
0:53:11and then and then move on to the next
0:53:12thing and don't really consider it i
0:53:14think you're missing the best feature of
0:53:16this book which is there's a lot of to
0:53:18come over afterward and there's still a
0:53:21lot of stuff we haven't even talked
0:53:22about
0:53:23I mean there's a there's a lot going on
0:53:24in this book positions only this is only
0:53:26book so far too right
0:53:27i believe so i think it's pretty amazing
0:53:29this is like random there's some s80
0:53:31test that you have like you may have
0:53:33read his work yes was like Harkaway the
0:53:36car away gone away well that's the only
0:53:39book that's out now I think I told you
0:53:40folks I for Congress article i talked to
0:53:43the car away was a lovely lovely fellow
0:53:45and he said something about having three
0:53:46other novels i think two of them
0:53:49completed that ostensibly we will get to
0:53:51see in print at some point in the near
0:53:53future so one hopes mr Palmer also isn't
0:53:55the same situation that will be more he
0:53:57hasn't shot everything he's ever thought
0:53:59about in a single model and during our
0:54:01Harkaway podcast i gave him a hard time
0:54:03for writing like showing off his writing
0:54:08prowess which i think is in fact what
0:54:11the dream of perpetual motion the entire
0:54:13book is all about really yes that's true
0:54:15and so I liked it in this book so i have
0:54:17i've acknowledging that i am a hypocrite
0:54:20we will now move on to that portion of
0:54:22the show that i like to call what are
0:54:23you reading where I asked the musical
0:54:25question what are you reading Glen what
0:54:28are you reading
0:54:29i am going to briefly mention for things
0:54:31very bright
0:54:32I went back and read Charles use a after
0:54:35Charles you podcast red third-class
0:54:38superhero and I hated the book and we
0:54:40can talk about this another time
0:54:41it's I thought his novel the how to live
0:54:45safely in a science fictional universe
0:54:46from getting the title right i thought
0:54:48was a was fasting and difficult and not
0:54:50necessarily successful third-class
0:54:52superhero has sort of one good story and
0:54:54a bunch of masturbatory exercises in
0:54:56writing that are like how to live safely
0:54:59science fictional universe except much
0:55:00less successful they'll say that about
0:55:03that i'm also reading i started to read
0:55:05have a problem finishing some of the
0:55:06books I've started recently when i get
0:55:08to a point and you know this happened
0:55:09with a with the general perpetual motion
0:55:12where I got through thinking of Scott
0:55:15all the time I got to the book to a
0:55:17point where I liked it so much as much
0:55:18as i did and i'm reading Greg bears hall
0:55:210 3 which is starting out very tediously
0:55:23about four
0:55:24pages in and I'm yawning and trying to
0:55:26figure out how to get further along and
0:55:28i'm also reading to say nothing of the
0:55:29dog
0:55:30ah thank goodness yes and i find that
0:55:34first part a little heart going but I'm
0:55:36believing that it's going to pick up
0:55:37because there are lots of indications it
0:55:39really is i think i'm getting them
0:55:41through the like in the dictionary
0:55:43definition part in which the structure
0:55:44of the universe is being explained to me
0:55:46and once that's through I feel like
0:55:48there's a story there once they're
0:55:49punting on the cam Ripper you it is gold
0:55:53that we've got a little still in the
0:55:54hospital i'm waiting from to get out
0:55:56that that part and then finally i'm
0:55:57reading a James Tiptree jr. a biography
0:56:00this is a one of the greatest science
0:56:02fiction writers of all time who led a
0:56:04double life who wrote under a male name
0:56:06was thought by many of her peers to be a
0:56:08male that was actually written by Alice
0:56:10B Sheldon who has an extraordinary life
0:56:12story including many trips to Africa
0:56:15with her explorer parents a child in
0:56:17places that no person no European or
0:56:19even outside person ever visited in the
0:56:21early nineteen hundreds extraordinary
0:56:23person extraordinary writer
0:56:24extraordinary depth and I hope we will
0:56:26in the future get enough people to read
0:56:29and I need to reread took trees
0:56:30exquisitely aching stories and and do a
0:56:35podcast about her and I even have a
0:56:36special guest in mind who would
0:56:38participate with us who knows the story
0:56:40is quite well and used to judge the
0:56:42James Tiptree jr. annual awards and
0:56:44that's what I'm very nice
0:56:46Scott what are you reading I am reading
0:56:48less books than Glenn only one because
0:56:52I'm an underachiever apparently it's but
0:56:54it's on 85 kindle the same happened
0:56:56that's true i can read in many different
0:56:58places so i would I reading The Wise
0:57:01Man's Fear which is by by Patrick
0:57:04Rothfuss whatwhat's the wise man's fear
0:57:07the wise man's fear which is a sequel to
0:57:11the name of the wind are the name of the
0:57:13wind and more and if only we were here
0:57:15he loves that book i love that book as
0:57:17well but sadly dan doesn't get to come
0:57:19on the podcast because he didn't read
0:57:21the dream of perpetual motion designer
0:57:23read and now we're told him haha ahead
0:57:26so so it is a highly anticipated sequel
0:57:28it just came out this fantasy this is
0:57:31fantasy
0:57:31this is a you know 900 pages of fantasy
0:57:34Wow
0:57:36and it's okay i'm apparently so i'm
0:57:38looking at amazon.com and the first book
0:57:40came out in 2007 this one came out a
0:57:43couple of days ago so he and i were
0:57:45talking about this yesterday in fact
0:57:46that that it's hard you're an
0:57:49unpublished novelist you're working on a
0:57:51novel for for for 10 years and you
0:57:53publish it and it's a wild success and
0:57:55everybody says where's the next one and
0:57:57you're like guys but took me 10 years
0:57:58exactly what you want what do you mean
0:58:00you want it now
0:58:01may I answered my turn the tables and
0:58:03even say Jason hey Jason what are you
0:58:05reading this week I'm glad you asked
0:58:07that question Michael and I am reading a
0:58:10few things although not as many as you
0:58:13but not as few as Scott is on and i also
0:58:17have a new kindle so I have one more
0:58:18device so I'm now only a hundred meters
0:58:20behind sky 401 keep trying json
0:58:24intention i can catch up
0:58:26I have a guy i've been reading all clear
0:58:30which is the second half of the connie
0:58:31willis novel that began with blackout
0:58:33which is the next book in in this
0:58:36universe that includes to say nothing of
0:58:38the dog
0:58:38ok and and it's it's basically about the
0:58:42Blitz the London Blitz and what I what I
0:58:45would say to the readers who are
0:58:46considering reading it is black marker
0:58:50are one book split into there's nae
0:58:53there's nothing I mean it's one book
0:58:56split in two and i made the mistake of
0:58:57reading the first book and then not
0:59:00reading the second book for several
0:59:01months and I was hopelessly lost and
0:59:04it's taken me a while to remember what
0:59:07happened in the other book so i'd
0:59:09recommend that if you read these books
0:59:10don't wait just blood flow through both
0:59:13of them and considered a gigantic book
0:59:15so that's what i'm reading and i just
0:59:17finished the second book in the
0:59:20Millennium Trilogy Stig Larson's the
0:59:23girl who played with fire
0:59:25I found any of those well so you know
0:59:28they're good but one of the funny things
0:59:31about them is that the guy died he wrote
0:59:33these three novels speaking of people
0:59:34having novels and and and then it in the
0:59:37can is he wrote these three novels and
0:59:38he died and they were published and
0:59:41became wildly successful the problem is
0:59:43i mean not that it's heard his sales
0:59:44obviously and i think i've said this in
0:59:46a previous podcast problem is they
0:59:48really could have used an editor
0:59:49oh god yes and and I feel like they were
0:59:53left untouched because he's dead
0:59:57open and the other thing is the english
0:59:59translation
0:59:59translation
1:00:00I'm sure the translation is problematic
1:00:02there's a wide there's wide condemnation
1:00:04by people are bilingual with the English
1:00:06translation was published especially the
1:00:07first book is really radically not know
1:00:11it's a different but it's the radical
1:00:13changes from the actual sweet another
1:00:14nereo major narrative but like the text
1:00:17and so forth because they wanted the
1:00:18book out so fast and it's kind of a kind
1:00:21of bad compared to how much i would
1:00:22imagine given how successful that they
1:00:24are that maybe at some point they'll
1:00:25retranslate and they might even you know
1:00:27they might even Mitchell edition give it
1:00:29give it and edit right for the penguin
1:00:31classic version because with the Dragon
1:00:32Tattoo one of his many books which you
1:00:34like good comment i mean that
1:00:35translation does not it does not explain
1:00:38the fact that we spend whole paragraphs
1:00:40talking about how much ram is in her
1:00:43nineties her 2001 era powerbook yeah I
1:00:46have realized that i am in fact reading
1:00:48another book if anyone cares i yes
1:00:50please let's look at that we have you
1:00:52been have you been reading these books
1:00:54while we've been talking what is the
1:00:56book Scott it is called so I i spent a
1:01:00while reading the like 13 of the viscous
1:01:04force or key and books or whatever the
1:01:06board Costa get it for so get there or
1:01:08close again I still can't sit bless you
1:01:10and so I got I was overwhelmed by it so
1:01:14i said i need to read something i read a
1:01:15couple of those too but I don't even
1:01:17want to mention that because then yes I
1:01:19read those 2i I needed something
1:01:21completely different so i picked up a
1:01:22book called a thus was a damas murdered
1:01:25which is by Sarah Caldwell and it is
1:01:29about these four lawyers or I guess
1:01:31barristers in 18th century New York no
1:01:34doubt this is like a like nineteen
1:01:36eighties England and yeah they solve
1:01:40mysteries
1:01:41so that's what it is all right great and
1:01:45so next book club and this is a note for
1:01:48all of you listeners out there as well
1:01:49as for people like Dan Moore and who are
1:01:51slackers are not even listening
1:01:54probably not because he's that much of a
1:01:56slacker and he said that he can't he's
1:01:58illiterate so he's unable to UM poor guy
1:02:01vs stories of your life and others by
1:02:05ted chang
1:02:07along with a along with a novella he
1:02:11wrote called the lifecycle of software
1:02:13objects i believe yes which is available
1:02:16online for free and we'll put a link in
1:02:19the show notes on the incomparable
1:02:20dot-com i have the beautiful beautiful
1:02:23slightly expensive print edition of the
1:02:26book because I like him so much I want
1:02:28to buy it ceased being published by
1:02:29small press I believe anything its local
1:02:31here to be in seattle and I bought that
1:02:33and is it's a novella novella but it's
1:02:36um gorgeously illustrated a gorgeous
1:02:38piece of printing so I actually
1:02:40recommend the print book for once
1:02:42all right look I'm looking forward to
1:02:43that discussion because they have many
1:02:45opinions and that's a short story
1:02:47collection so if you're not used to
1:02:49reading short stories i encourage you to
1:02:51give it a try actually one of my
1:02:52favorite things to do every year is by
1:02:54the year's best science fiction short
1:02:56stories collection if you don't usually
1:02:58read short stories I think ted chang it
1:03:00very interesting author i think it's
1:03:01worth reading at the very least if you
1:03:03don't buy stories of your life and
1:03:04others i would encourage you to seek out
1:03:06our are linked to the lifecycle of
1:03:08software objects which will give us
1:03:10somethin me to talk about a little pre
1:03:13little preview i think it's actually not
1:03:15one of his strongest works I i think
1:03:17there's stuff and stories of your life
1:03:19and others that are much better but i
1:03:20can turn
1:03:21yes alright she don't tell anybody and
1:03:24also you should with the story of your
1:03:27life and others persevere through the
1:03:29first story because i did not think the
1:03:30first story was very good i forgot which
1:03:32one it is
1:03:33yes well against both have similar yet i
1:03:35will just mind-blowing seven final
1:03:38things now we'll start we'll talk about
1:03:39it on the next on the next book club
1:03:41podcast so that's your assignment dear
1:03:43reader dear listener list issue can read
1:03:47there's anyone listeners thank you out
1:03:50there and then the only other thing I
1:03:52wanted to do before we before we went
1:03:55away was to remind people I if you've
1:03:57stuck with us this long and you just not
1:03:59tired of us yet that if you go to the
1:04:02incomparable com or to rifftrax dot-com
1:04:05you can see the eye riff that we
1:04:08generated which is 20 minutes of myself
1:04:11Glenn dan Morin and Steve Lutz making
1:04:15fun mystery science theater 3000 style
1:04:17of a sci-fi west
1:04:20turn short from the thirties called The
1:04:22Phantom Empire chapter 5 and I turned
1:04:27out pretty well so it's a dollar on
1:04:29rifftrax com to download and if you
1:04:31don't want to pay a dollar hang out wait
1:04:33around you know in a few months we'll
1:04:35post it for free but for now it's one
1:04:37buck so thank you for this discussion of
1:04:40the dream of perpetual motion guys it
1:04:42was a lot of fun
1:04:43I I mind has been expanded me to mine
1:04:46has been digitised are you a perpetual
1:04:50motion machine now it is alan scott is
1:04:52hollering my computer voice it's coming
1:04:56from inside the computer
1:04:58alright so until next time on that note
1:05:01man-years uplands turn on your perpetual
1:05:04motion machines and Fleischmann thank
1:05:07you very much for being here thank you
1:05:08so much and Scott it's great to have you
1:05:11on the podcast thank you very much for
1:05:13recommending this book and it only took
1:05:14us like six months to get around to well
1:05:17I I'm I thank you both for reading it
1:05:20it's sticky through unlike some I'm like
1:05:23son who shall remain den this is
1:05:27friendly and comfortable podcast of
1:05:29course it has
1:05:30there's nothing else that can compare
1:05:31until next time this jason still saying
1:05:33thank you
1:05:34[Music]
1:05:40I won't understand this podcast until I
1:05:42listen to the podcast about this podcast
1:05:45explaining it so basically our next
1:05:47podcast should be the podcast about the
1:05:50podcast about the dream of perpetual
1:05:52motion
1:05:52yes