The Incomparable

24: My Word as Vorkosigan


00:00:00   the incomparable podcast 24-foot love [TS]

00:00:09   for family 2011 [TS]

00:00:14   we are back on the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:00:17   I'm Jason smell your post the topic [TS]

00:00:19   today is Brooks and if you've tuned in [TS]

00:00:23   can you tune in a podcast to hear us [TS]

00:00:25   talk about dexter Palmer's delightful [TS]

00:00:27   book the dream of perpetual motion which [TS]

00:00:30   features Zeppelin's I have some bad news [TS]

00:00:32   for you lots of people are still reading [TS]

00:00:34   it or are promising to read it soon [TS]

00:00:36   it's so so we're gonna we're gonna do it [TS]

00:00:39   but it's going to be in a few more weeks [TS]

00:00:41   in the interim we have a book club [TS]

00:00:42   podcast that we've cobbled together on [TS]

00:00:44   short notice because it turns out that [TS]

00:00:45   for members of the vast incomparable [TS]

00:00:48   conspiracy have read many books in the [TS]

00:00:51   four cosas con Sokka by lois mcmaster [TS]

00:00:54   bujold and so that so we're going to [TS]

00:00:57   talk about that that's what are topic is [TS]

00:00:59   today if you have not read these books [TS]

00:01:02   it's ok we're going to be light on the [TS]

00:01:03   spoilers at the beginning then we're [TS]

00:01:05   gonna fire off the spoiler horn and you [TS]

00:01:06   need to run away until you've read them [TS]

00:01:08   all because they're great [TS]

00:01:10   joining me today to talk about the [TS]

00:01:11   foreclosing saga on the other end of the [TS]

00:01:14   internet is exactly opposite me on the [TS]

00:01:17   Internet is Scott McNulty Scott thank [TS]

00:01:19   you for joining us thank you for keeping [TS]

00:01:22   me and internets away an internets [TS]

00:01:25   length away [TS]

00:01:26   yes exactly I like you I like you there [TS]

00:01:28   I know where to find you on the other [TS]

00:01:30   side of the internet here with me in san [TS]

00:01:33   francisco in our makeshift studio is [TS]

00:01:35   serenity called well thank you for being [TS]

00:01:37   here thank you Jason and across from me [TS]

00:01:40   in the same very studio is the man who [TS]

00:01:41   introduced these books to me it says own [TS]

00:01:44   fault that we are having this [TS]

00:01:46   conversation because he loves them so [TS]

00:01:48   much [TS]

00:01:49   it's the one the only on every podcast [TS]

00:01:51   Dan Morgan hi dan it's so good to be [TS]

00:01:53   back you know it's been awhile i know or [TS]

00:01:56   at least a couple weeks at least a [TS]

00:01:58   couple weeks who knows i actually don't [TS]

00:01:59   know in in podcasting is order and [TS]

00:02:02   iphone maybe it hasn't been awhile could [TS]

00:02:05   it's possible it's possible so the [TS]

00:02:08   foreclosed again saga I think dan and I [TS]

00:02:10   have to start with you two to talk about [TS]

00:02:13   how you may be how you discovered these [TS]

00:02:15   books and and what what that was all [TS]

00:02:17   about because you I blame you i'm as I [TS]

00:02:21   yes I heard about these books back [TS]

00:02:24   actually when I was in college so [TS]

00:02:26   probably about 10 years [TS]

00:02:28   ago I was looking for something to read [TS]

00:02:30   and it was one of the the series that [TS]

00:02:32   had been recommended to me by to my [TS]

00:02:36   cousin and her husband both of whom are [TS]

00:02:38   avid science fiction and fantasy readers [TS]

00:02:40   and both are teachers as well and they [TS]

00:02:43   they have provided me over the years [TS]

00:02:45   with many great recommendations in the [TS]

00:02:47   science fiction and fantasy genre is so [TS]

00:02:48   I you know the the came with a good seal [TS]

00:02:52   of approval on it so I picked them up [TS]

00:02:55   and at the time you could actually get a [TS]

00:02:58   lot of the the single volumes a lot of [TS]

00:03:02   them have now been collected in Thomas's [TS]

00:03:04   and a lot of single volumes i think are [TS]

00:03:06   out of print or harder to get but I [TS]

00:03:09   started reading i think i started with [TS]

00:03:12   the actual first books in the series [TS]

00:03:13   which at the time was an omnibus [TS]

00:03:15   Cordelia's honor which collects the [TS]

00:03:17   first two books shards of honor and bar [TS]

00:03:19   ER and I I definitely started reading [TS]

00:03:22   the first one and was a little not quite [TS]

00:03:25   sucked in it felt very much like a [TS]

00:03:27   traditional science fiction story to me [TS]

00:03:28   and I was I was like okay this is all [TS]

00:03:30   right i got sort of bag down halfway [TS]

00:03:31   through and then I came back to it and [TS]

00:03:33   really enjoyed it and finish it up and [TS]

00:03:35   then I red bar which i think is is to me [TS]

00:03:37   really got me sucked into the whole [TS]

00:03:39   world that she's created here and and [TS]

00:03:41   and then from then I was sort of often [TS]

00:03:44   running and I devoured all of the books [TS]

00:03:46   pretty rapidly which at the point at [TS]

00:03:49   that point was all the way up to a civil [TS]

00:03:51   campaign i believe and then not long [TS]

00:03:53   after i finish the diplomatic community [TS]

00:03:55   came out and then it was many many years [TS]

00:03:57   until the most recent book cryo burn [TS]

00:03:59   came out this past fall [TS]

00:04:00   Scott is is a dance fault that you've [TS]

00:04:03   read these books or did you discover [TS]

00:04:05   them on your own and it is in fact [TS]

00:04:07   dancehall we all blame you wow so he [TS]

00:04:11   really is the the one who started all [TS]

00:04:13   this for us his instigate a troublemaker [TS]

00:04:16   it over at my memory of them is that I [TS]

00:04:19   had some point made a vow to read all [TS]

00:04:21   the hugo award-winning novels and [TS]

00:04:24   discovered that there were all of these [TS]

00:04:25   books that were part of a series and I [TS]

00:04:28   thought to myself oh god I'm going to [TS]

00:04:31   have to start reading a series and read [TS]

00:04:33   a bunch of other books in the series in [TS]

00:04:35   order to get to all the books that won [TS]

00:04:36   the hugo award and so until then came [TS]

00:04:40   out and said [TS]

00:04:40   always my favorite you can read them and [TS]

00:04:41   so now I've actually got them up bari [TS]

00:04:43   are actually wanna hugo award and the [TS]

00:04:47   four-game hitting four-game win at least [TS]

00:04:49   one of them one egg yellow and where you [TS]

00:04:51   go and the nebula as one of only a few i [TS]

00:04:54   believe so [TS]

00:04:55   so let's talk premise here first off [TS]

00:04:59   because we haven't fired up the spoiler [TS]

00:05:00   warning for those who don't know what [TS]

00:05:02   the the Vorkosigan saga enjoy saying [TS]

00:05:05   that is about it's a it's a sci-fi [TS]

00:05:08   series is set in the future there are a [TS]

00:05:09   whole bunch of different planets that [TS]

00:05:11   the earth is around but it's kind of a [TS]

00:05:13   backwater and we've got this is [TS]

00:05:17   essentially the story of a family [TS]

00:05:18   because the first two books RS are about [TS]

00:05:21   the parents of who is really the guy who [TS]

00:05:23   is the protagonist for most of the books [TS]

00:05:25   with Miles Vorkosigan also that's [TS]

00:05:27   important to note there are no real [TS]

00:05:29   aliens no aliens and humans everyone is [TS]

00:05:32   sort of started at Earth and spread and [TS]

00:05:34   and humans have sprawled out words from [TS]

00:05:36   their humans are the most alien of all [TS]

00:05:37   if you look inside themselves and [TS]

00:05:40   genetic creations and genetic mutations [TS]

00:05:42   in the story progresses but it's [TS]

00:05:45   definitely mostly humanoid if nothing [TS]

00:05:48   else yes there are couple there are a [TS]

00:05:49   couple of bodies i have to do with us [TS]

00:05:51   qualities and a couple other mutations [TS]

00:05:52   and and then the like but i think i [TS]

00:05:55   think that's kind of what drew me to it [TS]

00:05:56   is i think at the time I had burned out [TS]

00:05:59   a lot on on aliens especially after you [TS]

00:06:02   know being a fan things like Star Trek [TS]

00:06:03   which which i still enjoy but you know [TS]

00:06:06   the the sort of recurring problems with [TS]

00:06:08   with sci-fi franchises in which aliens [TS]

00:06:12   are look there people but they look kind [TS]

00:06:14   of different [TS]

00:06:14   they got funny foreheads or whatever [TS]

00:06:16   yeah and so I kind of I I was very [TS]

00:06:18   intrigued in this complicated you know [TS]

00:06:22   it's sort of a space opera but it's got [TS]

00:06:24   these really heavy elements drama one of [TS]

00:06:25   the things I love sort of generally [TS]

00:06:27   speaking is that she now bujold plays [TS]

00:06:30   with Jean roulotte in that various books [TS]

00:06:33   sort of delve in and out of other genres [TS]

00:06:35   as well including things like romance [TS]

00:06:37   mystery you know science fiction fantasy [TS]

00:06:41   you know like I think it please the [TS]

00:06:43   court there's some political is a lot of [TS]

00:06:45   political injury [TS]

00:06:46   especially in many of the later books [TS]

00:06:48   and but at the edits heart it's it's an [TS]

00:06:51   adventure story and I think that's kind [TS]

00:06:54   of what i love is for me like that you [TS]

00:06:55   know when especially with dealing with [TS]

00:06:57   miles [TS]

00:06:58   you've got this sort of very charismatic [TS]

00:07:00   roguish central figure who goes on all [TS]

00:07:03   these adventures and and sort of sweeps [TS]

00:07:06   in and out of people's lives and and [TS]

00:07:08   he's a lot of fun to follow Scott what [TS]

00:07:11   what were your first impressions of this [TS]

00:07:13   series as you as you read through [TS]

00:07:15   because you've read obviously you didn't [TS]

00:07:16   despise it is you you like me have read [TS]

00:07:18   like eight of them now i have in pretty [TS]

00:07:21   much one right after the other [TS]

00:07:23   I i did take a break and read another [TS]

00:07:25   book and then I go back into them [TS]

00:07:28   I i thought when i first read about them [TS]

00:07:31   after Dan mentioned them I was fairly [TS]

00:07:33   certain that i wouldn't like them [TS]

00:07:34   well I mean Dan mentioned them right [TS]

00:07:36   swear that's a strike against it you [TS]

00:07:38   have to wonder he like Star Wars but [TS]

00:07:42   there is another time McNulty another [TS]

00:07:45   problem last but I decided out of the [TS]

00:07:48   shop because uh the the publisher bein [TS]

00:07:52   had basically posted like 14 million of [TS]

00:07:55   them for free on the internet right you [TS]

00:07:57   could you can download almost except for [TS]

00:07:59   one memory memory left by which i did [TS]

00:08:03   already how they get you [TS]

00:08:05   that's right they give away 10 books so [TS]

00:08:07   you can buy one point four dollars [TS]

00:08:08   brilliantly where it's hidden it did [TS]

00:08:11   work it did they got my it it didn't i [TS]

00:08:14   know that i couldn't buy it from amazon [TS]

00:08:15   as an e-book I had to use their web [TS]

00:08:18   scription thing but anyway that's [TS]

00:08:19   another thing I so I i obviously i liked [TS]

00:08:23   it and I continue to like it [TS]

00:08:25   yeah I don't know why I didn't think i [TS]

00:08:27   would like it mostly because I guess my [TS]

00:08:30   default is that i will not like [TS]

00:08:32   something new it's helping the criminals [TS]

00:08:35   could be poisonous you never know it [TS]

00:08:37   could be invested assets a new kindle [TS]

00:08:39   and black [TS]

00:08:40   that's right then i know i love it oh [TS]

00:08:42   but I did enjoy it and I thought I think [TS]

00:08:46   it was a nice kind of break from I've [TS]

00:08:50   been reading a lot of kind of literary [TS]

00:08:52   science fiction you know where authors [TS]

00:08:55   are trying to do things and like the [TS]

00:08:58   dream of perpetual motion [TS]

00:08:59   collected over exactly which is not [TS]

00:09:00   perhaps the easiest thing to read and [TS]

00:09:02   the author is clearly trying to play [TS]

00:09:04   with the genre a lot and the the [TS]

00:09:07   concepts of fiction and doing a bunch of [TS]

00:09:10   flashy writing and not to say that [TS]

00:09:14   google is a is a bad writer because I [TS]

00:09:17   think she's very good writer but she [TS]

00:09:19   like Dan said at the base like at the [TS]

00:09:22   bottom of these is just kind of a fun [TS]

00:09:24   adventure story and then she weaves in a [TS]

00:09:27   lot of very kind of interesting themes [TS]

00:09:29   and ruminations on on things so that on [TS]

00:09:34   you know a deeper level you can think [TS]

00:09:35   about larger themes but if you don't [TS]

00:09:37   really want to think you can just enjoy [TS]

00:09:38   miles ruining other people's lives as he [TS]

00:09:42   barrels through the universe [TS]

00:09:44   she's never really hitting you over the [TS]

00:09:46   head with anything you know just comes [TS]

00:09:48   kind of comes naturally [TS]

00:09:50   yeah i mean the the the the books are [TS]

00:09:55   they are [TS]

00:09:56   yeah they're not they're not flashy [TS]

00:09:57   they're not showy but they are [TS]

00:09:59   adventurous and to dance point the the [TS]

00:10:03   the genre playing with the genres i [TS]

00:10:04   really love the fact that you can have [TS]

00:10:06   books that are essentially about some [TS]

00:10:10   variation on human culture that sprung [TS]

00:10:12   up on some crazy planet somewhere like [TS]

00:10:15   the CD condoms who are our plate as the [TS]

00:10:18   bad guys and then at a later point uh [TS]

00:10:20   they you get to know more about them and [TS]

00:10:22   they seem a little bit but they're still [TS]

00:10:24   bad but they're bad in a very particular [TS]

00:10:26   way [TS]

00:10:27   yeah and I mean they're not black and [TS]

00:10:28   white right exactly and then and then [TS]

00:10:31   you've got the political intrigue at [TS]

00:10:32   home which is interesting one of the [TS]

00:10:34   things about this about this series [TS]

00:10:36   that's fascinating to me is that is that [TS]

00:10:38   uh you know to put it in the least [TS]

00:10:41   spoilery terms possible that there are [TS]

00:10:43   essentially two kind of tracks there's [TS]

00:10:45   the track of the homeworld of the [TS]

00:10:47   Vorkosigan which is barri are and it's a [TS]

00:10:50   there's an emperor and there's political [TS]

00:10:52   imaginations and there's power in the [TS]

00:10:54   sort of a backstory there because they [TS]

00:10:55   were cut off [TS]

00:10:56   yeah from culture for a while and they [TS]

00:10:57   sort of receded into sort of feudalism [TS]

00:11:00   yeah journalism and then and then they [TS]

00:11:02   were reconnected but then there's the [TS]

00:11:05   kind of high adventure on the high seas [TS]

00:11:07   part of it which is this interstellar [TS]

00:11:09   like pirates and [TS]

00:11:11   and-and-and boring sporting planets and [TS]

00:11:15   and mercenaries and i think i'm all in [TS]

00:11:17   that stay tuned and I think part of it [TS]

00:11:19   you know one of the inspirations i think [TS]

00:11:21   i recalled undecided are the the horatio [TS]

00:11:24   hornblower novels which are sort of a [TS]

00:11:26   Napoleonic war stories following this [TS]

00:11:29   one particular guy who works in British [TS]

00:11:33   naval officer and as he progresses [TS]

00:11:35   through the ranks and becomes all these [TS]

00:11:36   go through all these different [TS]

00:11:37   adventures and interesting encounters [TS]

00:11:41   and over the course of the wars and it's [TS]

00:11:43   very follow the progression in the same [TS]

00:11:45   way that the miles books do which is [TS]

00:11:46   that they follow his wife except he's [TS]

00:11:48   got the two sides of his life right and [TS]

00:11:50   that that's an interesting Mona's that's [TS]

00:11:51   an interesting quirk because it like it [TS]

00:11:54   allows you like I found myself actually [TS]

00:11:55   really liking what goes on in Bari are [TS]

00:11:58   which I thought originally was going to [TS]

00:11:59   be kind of a crushing bore and and it [TS]

00:12:01   turns out that sometimes I'm like I [TS]

00:12:03   think possibly because i read the series [TS]

00:12:05   chronologically which not everybody does [TS]

00:12:06   she actually wrote them way out of order [TS]

00:12:08   chronologically but having read them [TS]

00:12:10   chronologically you start with his [TS]

00:12:12   parents and you start on Bari are after [TS]

00:12:15   the you know in that second book and I [TS]

00:12:17   felt kind of tied to Bari are at that [TS]

00:12:19   point so when they get the high [TS]

00:12:20   adventure on the universe that's fun but [TS]

00:12:22   I'm almost like you know I come what's [TS]

00:12:24   the political intrigue going on back [TS]

00:12:25   home [TS]

00:12:26   see it's funny because i started with [TS]

00:12:28   warriors apprentice which is the first [TS]

00:12:30   book with miles [TS]

00:12:31   it's a Republican mr. exactly which [TS]

00:12:33   starts kind of interstellar high space [TS]

00:12:35   travel fund debauchery everything and so [TS]

00:12:38   when I watch hurry there's a little bit [TS]

00:12:40   of debauchery here and there I was going [TS]

00:12:42   to say pg-13 [TS]

00:12:44   yeah she 13 debauchery but I'm sure [TS]

00:12:47   sighs there's a certain point in the [TS]

00:12:48   series where it takes a turn away from [TS]

00:12:50   the interstellar space travel and when i [TS]

00:12:52   first realized that I'm like oh no but [TS]

00:12:55   bahria reminds me of robert jordan [TS]

00:12:57   novels I don't want to go there and I [TS]

00:13:00   was yeah I i often and i've i've made a [TS]

00:13:04   number of people beyond just [TS]

00:13:05   incomparable related people read this [TS]

00:13:08   series you made them you made them ice [TS]

00:13:10   trailers down i've written long work [TS]

00:13:13   orange he sort of like a personal [TS]

00:13:15   trainer for books exactly [TS]

00:13:16   no I recommended to many people and I [TS]

00:13:18   often recommend people start with the [TS]

00:13:20   Warriors apprentice because i think it's [TS]

00:13:22   more indicative of the series as a whole [TS]

00:13:25   and that's kind of tough because i think [TS]

00:13:28   you you learn a lot if you start at the [TS]

00:13:30   beginning there's a lot of foundation [TS]

00:13:31   set that becomes important later on [TS]

00:13:34   there are callbacks to you know bar ER [TS]

00:13:38   and and charge of honor and all the [TS]

00:13:39   stuff that you learn in there really [TS]

00:13:41   plays very heavily into area and goes [TS]

00:13:43   you don't need to know it but it adds [TS]

00:13:45   you a hole deeper level of understanding [TS]

00:13:46   if you have read those verses i really [TS]

00:13:48   like Cordelia's I don't think it would [TS]

00:13:50   work as well if i just read shards of [TS]

00:13:51   honor which is the first book but as an [TS]

00:13:53   omnibus with both of them together I [TS]

00:13:55   need I really worked for me for going to [TS]

00:13:56   read one you have to read both begin I [TS]

00:13:57   think they really they're two halves of [TS]

00:13:59   the same sort of funny since she didn't [TS]

00:14:01   write them in order she she wrote part [TS]

00:14:03   of the second one and then gave it up [TS]

00:14:05   and wrote the Warriors credits instead [TS]

00:14:07   right and then came back to it much [TS]

00:14:09   later but it as an omnibus edition it [TS]

00:14:12   reads a it reads really well yes and in [TS]

00:14:15   some ways I feel like shards of honor to [TS]

00:14:17   meet its feels kind of abrupt as an [TS]

00:14:19   ending as they are at least I when I [TS]

00:14:20   read it I felt very much like a the [TS]

00:14:23   story is just getting started [TS]

00:14:24   I think I might have actually read that [TS]

00:14:26   as a kid because I when I was in high [TS]

00:14:28   school I subscribe to analog magazine [TS]

00:14:30   and I think it may have actually been [TS]

00:14:31   serialized there because it seems sort [TS]

00:14:33   of familiar [TS]

00:14:34   although there are other sci-fi series [TS]

00:14:35   like like that where the you know the [TS]

00:14:37   earth cultures have spread out and there [TS]

00:14:39   aren't really any aliens or there aren't [TS]

00:14:41   very many errands you know the the john [TS]

00:14:44   barnes has a serious the the thousand [TS]

00:14:46   cultures or million open doors i think [TS]

00:14:48   is the name of the first book in that [TS]

00:14:50   series and you know there are some [TS]

00:14:52   others so it seems kind of familiar but [TS]

00:14:53   you know that that that even that early [TS]

00:14:56   book kept me guessing because i thought [TS]

00:14:58   i was going to see a story that was [TS]

00:14:59   about the two characters kind of walking [TS]

00:15:01   across the desert and surviving for the [TS]

00:15:03   whole book and that's like four chapters [TS]

00:15:05   and there they did their found something [TS]

00:15:08   that I really love about the way lost [TS]

00:15:11   metric visual structures her novels is [TS]

00:15:13   that with a lot of novels that you read [TS]

00:15:16   you know there's a crises of some kind [TS]

00:15:18   like all the characters get trapped here [TS]

00:15:20   or there imprisoned or something like [TS]

00:15:21   that and you expect a normal lovelier I [TS]

00:15:24   alright that's going to be two-thirds of [TS]

00:15:25   the novel and then you know that's going [TS]

00:15:27   to lead all the way up to the end she [TS]

00:15:28   loves putting her character [TS]

00:15:30   as in crazy situations and then [TS]

00:15:31   immediately resolving the situation and [TS]

00:15:33   dealing with the aftermath and that kind [TS]

00:15:35   of carries on over a bunch of different [TS]

00:15:37   books I found that really fascinating [TS]

00:15:39   because you you expect something and [TS]

00:15:41   then you get completely thrown off track [TS]

00:15:42   to a different place and it makes the [TS]

00:15:44   reading very enjoyable [TS]

00:15:46   what say you Scott bar ER or high [TS]

00:15:49   universe adventure or do you come down [TS]

00:15:51   on either side of that I i enjoy both i [TS]

00:15:54   think i would come down on Bari are a [TS]

00:15:56   little bit more and it just because I [TS]

00:16:00   like all those characters more than I [TS]

00:16:02   like the the mercenary band a little [TS]

00:16:06   more fleshed out there more more good [TS]

00:16:09   characters i think on Bari are where the [TS]

00:16:11   mercenary to come out of there are few [TS]

00:16:13   but they kind of cycle through them and [TS]

00:16:14   bar you've got that complex kind of [TS]

00:16:16   society and you got the Emperor who is [TS]

00:16:19   actually a fascinating you know great [TS]

00:16:22   character the internet that you every I [TS]

00:16:24   mean how many books do you read or [TS]

00:16:27   movies you see where there's an emperor [TS]

00:16:28   and you know that the absolute power is [TS]

00:16:30   going to corrupt him and he starts out [TS]

00:16:31   as a kid and you know God he's going to [TS]

00:16:33   be a monster and one of the interesting [TS]

00:16:35   things about the Emperor Gregor and in [TS]

00:16:38   this series is he's a guy you know and [TS]

00:16:40   he's got his flaws but but you know I i [TS]

00:16:43   haven't read through you know memory you [TS]

00:16:45   know he they could have gone down that [TS]

00:16:47   route and there's actually a moment in [TS]

00:16:49   one of the earlier books where he gets [TS]

00:16:50   bad advice and you're like oh geez it's [TS]

00:16:52   gonna be bad but no it's it's not about [TS]

00:16:54   it's not it's not quite down that path [TS]

00:16:56   it's more complicated than that right [TS]

00:16:58   and you have to have our monstrous [TS]

00:17:00   royalty character right there earlier on [TS]

00:17:03   right and yes to live them down [TS]

00:17:05   you mean I want to speak to you know [TS]

00:17:07   sort of branching off from from greater [TS]

00:17:08   there which the thing that makes these [TS]

00:17:12   books so good and so addictive really to [TS]

00:17:16   me in terms of like coming back to them [TS]

00:17:18   and you know not being able to put them [TS]

00:17:19   down is the characters and I think that [TS]

00:17:23   is too far away old strong suit is [TS]

00:17:26   creating characters who are you feel [TS]

00:17:29   real you know who for who are fleshed [TS]

00:17:32   out who are three-dimensional even-even [TS]

00:17:34   characters who seem like minor [TS]

00:17:35   characters will see my caricatures turn [TS]

00:17:39   out to have a lot of depth and reality [TS]

00:17:43   to them [TS]

00:17:43   and even if they're not the characters [TS]

00:17:45   on whom the the spotlight shines so much [TS]

00:17:47   of the attention focuses on miles and he [TS]

00:17:49   is a fascinating and wonderful character [TS]

00:17:51   but so many of the supporting cast like [TS]

00:17:55   Gregor who is not he's not he's gets you [TS]

00:17:58   know push the forefront and a couple of [TS]

00:17:59   the stories but a lot of he only appears [TS]

00:18:01   maybe in a few scenes but he there's [TS]

00:18:04   something about so many of the [TS]

00:18:05   characters that when they show up [TS]

00:18:06   further down the road you always you [TS]

00:18:09   have a kind of us a fond memory of them [TS]

00:18:11   and you're glad to see them and I think [TS]

00:18:14   she said at one point something like [TS]

00:18:15   people always you know we're asking her [TS]

00:18:17   every time you put out book but what [TS]

00:18:20   about this character and what about this [TS]

00:18:21   case you know if I put in all the [TS]

00:18:22   characters that people want to see this [TS]

00:18:24   book would be like a thousand pages walk [TS]

00:18:26   right I'm meanwhile at the polar station [TS]

00:18:29   on Bari our guy that you had before is [TS]

00:18:32   cleaning out of terrain that got my job [TS]

00:18:35   was on saying he's gonna favorite [TS]

00:18:39   character they all have such unique [TS]

00:18:41   devilishly fun voices though you know I [TS]

00:18:44   mean as you said even the minor [TS]

00:18:45   characters there on pick another [TS]

00:18:48   onscreen for maybe a couple pages and [TS]

00:18:51   you know exactly who they are that you [TS]

00:18:52   know exactly [TS]

00:18:53   there's never any dialogue conversation [TS]

00:18:54   between like miles and one of the other [TS]

00:18:56   characters that sounds like it's if you [TS]

00:18:59   close your eyes you couldn't tell which [TS]

00:19:01   person was speaking you know that they [TS]

00:19:04   all have very distinct characteristics [TS]

00:19:06   if you read a line of dialogue from the [TS]

00:19:08   book without telling you who it is i bet [TS]

00:19:10   it would be much easier to figure out [TS]

00:19:12   which character was speaking than say [TS]

00:19:13   from another non for goes again novel it [TS]

00:19:17   sure helps that that you have this many [TS]

00:19:19   books to tell the story because you do [TS]

00:19:21   get to sort of weave them in and out and [TS]

00:19:23   they do feel sort of like old friends [TS]

00:19:24   after a while they don't need watching a [TS]

00:19:26   TV show when you're right here in [TS]

00:19:27   character comes back here like that guy [TS]

00:19:29   like yeah right right drain cleaner yeah [TS]

00:19:31   you don't need six months you can just [TS]

00:19:33   you know youyou 66 chapters with the guy [TS]

00:19:36   you can you can drop in here and then [TS]

00:19:38   there and and and you know whether it is [TS]

00:19:40   Miles poor cousin eivin I you know [TS]

00:19:45   because i love is wonderful is very [TS]

00:19:47   charming and and does terry has terrible [TS]

00:19:50   things done to him by miles because he's [TS]

00:19:52   family and even though he knows he's [TS]

00:19:53   going to get in trouble and 10 miles [TS]

00:19:56   parents who you know obviously carry two [TS]

00:19:57   books all on their own Gregory the [TS]

00:19:59   Emperor and then in the in the mercenary [TS]

00:20:01   fleet you've got a couple characters [TS]

00:20:02   there too or who are who actually some [TS]

00:20:05   of whom seemed initially to be not that [TS]

00:20:07   important who this is this is a cannon [TS]

00:20:09   fodder character who ends up becoming an [TS]

00:20:11   incredibly important character later on [TS]

00:20:13   so so there's there's lots of there's [TS]

00:20:16   lots of that although when you talk [TS]

00:20:19   about really well-defined characters [TS]

00:20:20   let's talk first about the character of [TS]

00:20:22   miles because miles is the one character [TS]

00:20:26   who he died I guess buddy consistent or [TS]

00:20:30   is he just kind of outrageous and I feel [TS]

00:20:33   like in later books in later books he [TS]

00:20:35   gets some self-awareness but early on he [TS]

00:20:37   just is always a mess he's all over the [TS]

00:20:39   place well I mean my favorite phrase to [TS]

00:20:41   describe him and I can't remember which [TS]

00:20:43   which character others it might be Ivan [TS]

00:20:45   my free you know every you cannot think [TS]

00:20:48   of them without the game as the [TS]

00:20:49   hyperactive little get which to me [TS]

00:20:52   suggests totally totally sums him up in [TS]

00:20:55   that you know we talked about all these [TS]

00:20:57   other characters but in many ways the [TS]

00:20:59   other characters are to a certain extent [TS]

00:21:00   defined by their interactions with milas [TS]

00:21:03   like you some way dt bangs around and [TS]

00:21:06   bounces off of them and changes them in [TS]

00:21:07   ways am and he really is he's them in [TS]

00:21:10   some ways and this will be you know [TS]

00:21:12   maybe perhaps somewhat of an ironic turn [TS]

00:21:14   of phrase he's larger than life and and [TS]

00:21:17   intentionally so I mean I think and I [TS]

00:21:19   don't know if anybody has ever read [TS]

00:21:21   Dorothy stairs Lord Peter Wimsey novels [TS]

00:21:25   but i believe this is a classic 1930s [TS]

00:21:28   detective series are about a nobleman [TS]

00:21:31   who solves mysteries and it was the [TS]

00:21:33   nineteen-thirties Scott metrics while I [TS]

00:21:35   mean it has a new york [TS]

00:21:36   yes is actually written in the nineteen [TS]

00:21:38   thirties I'm a great and incidentally a [TS]

00:21:40   great series and and lord peter is I i [TS]

00:21:43   believe one of the inspirations for [TS]

00:21:44   miles and that he's kind of he's a [TS]

00:21:47   nobleman are idle rich character who [TS]

00:21:49   solves mysteries very smart man but he [TS]

00:21:52   looks deceptively like everyone kind of [TS]

00:21:54   pass him off as a oh he's just you know [TS]

00:21:57   a fluffy guy [TS]

00:21:58   I was going to mention i think that [TS]

00:22:00   miles is my least favorite character in [TS]

00:22:03   this series just because he annoys me [TS]

00:22:05   more often than not [TS]

00:22:07   yeah bye I was gonna say the same thing [TS]

00:22:10   I so good so good for you could mistake [TS]

00:22:13   it's good to be your you're nice and [TS]

00:22:14   provocative or more or less polite to me [TS]

00:22:16   it's good [TS]

00:22:17   well there you go i 5 it like especially [TS]

00:22:19   the way he treats I've been always [TS]

00:22:20   annoys me because I've it is not doing [TS]

00:22:22   anything wrong he always does with miles [TS]

00:22:23   s him to do but miles is always fairly [TS]

00:22:26   nasty to him in his in inner monologue [TS]

00:22:29   which i think is not for a nice he [TS]

00:22:32   doesn't run you might just seem to start [TS]

00:22:33   to grow up I mean you've read it as far [TS]

00:22:35   as I have an in-memory actually in many [TS]

00:22:37   ways [TS]

00:22:38   dan was pointing out that the synopsis [TS]

00:22:40   of that book is really miles its 1330 [TS]

00:22:42   hits back i love that is my favorite [TS]

00:22:45   long time and and eat there is a sense [TS]

00:22:49   that that I'm you know he has to grow up [TS]

00:22:51   a little bit and and not be doing all [TS]

00:22:54   the stupid stuff that he did when he was [TS]

00:22:55   in his twenties in these other books [TS]

00:22:57   right i mean he does he get some depth [TS]

00:22:59   he grows some depth because he's got [TS]

00:23:02   some complications that make him not as [TS]

00:23:04   a fantastic a person as as he used to be [TS]

00:23:07   and he continues to grow throughout the [TS]

00:23:09   series one of the things i like now you [TS]

00:23:11   still didn't like him in memory so now [TS]

00:23:12   didn't really like it maybe only come in [TS]

00:23:14   the next 18 books and actually had a [TS]

00:23:17   baby that maybe you'll find this helpful [TS]

00:23:18   I started thinking and and horatio [TS]

00:23:21   hornblower is the perfect connection [TS]

00:23:23   here because Captain Kirk was based on [TS]

00:23:25   Horatio Hornblower to and there are [TS]

00:23:27   scenes especially when miles is with a [TS]

00:23:28   mercenary fleet where I can't help but [TS]

00:23:30   thinking of him as Captain Kirk from the [TS]

00:23:32   original star trek from then that [TS]

00:23:33   dynamic I've got a I've got a crazy idea [TS]

00:23:36   but it just might work and he's and [TS]

00:23:38   everybody else is looking around like [TS]

00:23:39   what do you mean corbomite that doesn't [TS]

00:23:41   made-up thing are you telling the alien [TS]

00:23:43   captain that we have a corporate my [TS]

00:23:44   device that's going to destroy a ship [TS]

00:23:45   and curse like I got this [TS]

00:23:48   nobody worried and my and miles that I [TS]

00:23:52   think maybe more than any other [TS]

00:23:53   character in any other book I've ever [TS]

00:23:54   read reminded me of that classic which [TS]

00:23:57   my favorite TV show is a kid Captain [TS]

00:23:59   Kirk that classic kind of roguish but [TS]

00:24:02   smart but in a weird kind of way and and [TS]

00:24:05   men and a loose cannon he's kind of his [TS]

00:24:08   kind of the doctor to write like to a [TS]

00:24:10   certain extent [TS]

00:24:12   I don't know I don't know about that he [TS]

00:24:14   really i think i think there's a lot of [TS]

00:24:15   similarities between those two [TS]

00:24:16   characters in terms of they're both [TS]

00:24:18   extremely smart he's Harry Potter the [TS]

00:24:20   doctor and Captain Kirk well what he's [TS]

00:24:23   he's really smart he's kind of [TS]

00:24:24   hyperactive you know he's always got a [TS]

00:24:26   plan got an idea [TS]

00:24:28   I mean you know and everybody else is [TS]

00:24:31   sort of caught up in his whirlwind right [TS]

00:24:33   there there's an element of that too it [TS]

00:24:35   to him that really it depends on point [TS]

00:24:37   of view I think because i think it's [TS]

00:24:39   really interesting in the first couple [TS]

00:24:40   novels were basically entirely centered [TS]

00:24:43   around miles and no one else really gets [TS]

00:24:44   any chance to speak point of view and we [TS]

00:24:47   get to hear his inner monologue all the [TS]

00:24:49   damn time whereas in the later books we [TS]

00:24:51   start getting other characters as they [TS]

00:24:54   see miles and as they see the situation [TS]

00:24:55   there's a couple like mike wynn yes [TS]

00:24:59   right the the captain of the of the [TS]

00:25:01   fleet and his his one-time girlfriend [TS]

00:25:03   got a minor minor spoilers [TS]

00:25:06   oh no she she she has a very particular [TS]

00:25:09   view and she's got a lot of respect and [TS]

00:25:11   love for him but boy when you see him [TS]

00:25:13   through her icy easy [TS]

00:25:15   he's a he's a mess and he's a problem [TS]

00:25:17   and yeah you know he ruins things right [TS]

00:25:20   well I think it really depends the [TS]

00:25:21   characterization depending on whose [TS]

00:25:24   point of view you're paying attention to [TS]

00:25:25   because I mean you get to the later [TS]

00:25:27   books and one of one of the characters [TS]

00:25:28   causes miles to continue say unpack [TS]

00:25:31   ok I have to unpack because all of a [TS]

00:25:33   sudden were not hearing miles you know [TS]

00:25:36   for your conscience and steps that has [TS]

00:25:38   exactly right which will hear in the [TS]

00:25:40   earlier books because we get to see all [TS]

00:25:42   of his stream of consciousness but in [TS]

00:25:43   the later books were not following him [TS]

00:25:45   what are you talking exactly where is [TS]

00:25:47   confused as he is what did you not like [TS]

00:25:49   my captain kirk language you not like [TS]

00:25:51   Captain Kirk either is he kind of a jerk [TS]

00:25:52   too [TS]

00:25:53   well I really think about a captain kirk [TS]

00:25:55   is kind of a jerk but i do like Captain [TS]

00:25:57   Kirk I don't know why I just miles just [TS]

00:26:00   rubs me the wrong way and maybe in later [TS]

00:26:03   novels he will rub me the right way [TS]

00:26:05   which doesn't sound nice but I see what [TS]

00:26:07   you're saying know that that it anyway [TS]

00:26:09   okay it is not yeah a destructive force [TS]

00:26:11   yes and he certainly is a perfect plot [TS]

00:26:15   device to drive forward a story because [TS]

00:26:18   he just doesn't stop [TS]

00:26:19   and it would he is a very interesting [TS]

00:26:21   character and I I don't hate him but I [TS]

00:26:24   just think that he isn't [TS]

00:26:25   if he were real I would not want to know [TS]

00:26:27   why and I think i agree with that [TS]

00:26:30   certainly don't know if Miles Vorkosigan [TS]

00:26:32   pull this starship into my space station [TS]

00:26:34   I'd be like I got the thing i'm taking [TS]

00:26:36   my leave now I'm going into the other [TS]

00:26:38   side of the galaxy [TS]

00:26:39   I'll be back if you're still alive I'll [TS]

00:26:41   be back in a few years but goodbye good [TS]

00:26:43   luck with with this guy [TS]

00:26:44   what well the interesting thing about [TS]

00:26:46   miles is that that combination of the [TS]

00:26:50   fact that he is brilliant and he is a UH [TS]

00:26:53   a loose cannon but he's also got Dan [TS]

00:26:57   alluded to it two at a physical [TS]

00:26:59   disability he he is short [TS]

00:27:03   he's like five feet tall in a in a in a [TS]

00:27:06   UH culture back on Bari are that is [TS]

00:27:08   basically a aborted or killed all of all [TS]

00:27:13   children or babies that showed any [TS]

00:27:15   physical deformity when they were in [TS]

00:27:16   their feudal period so he is you know [TS]

00:27:19   he's alive because his mother basically [TS]

00:27:21   said what we're going to save him but he [TS]

00:27:24   is he is unlike everybody else in his [TS]

00:27:26   culture and they all look down on him [TS]

00:27:28   and then he's also taken for granted [TS]

00:27:30   really even out in the wider world [TS]

00:27:32   because he is he's kind of a hunchback [TS]

00:27:35   and he's short and although his he has [TS]

00:27:37   medical procedures that make him you [TS]

00:27:39   know slightly taller overtime but he's [TS]

00:27:40   also he's also extremely fragile right [TS]

00:27:43   he can't always got a little brown this [TS]

00:27:44   weekend is a giant head and also have to [TS]

00:27:48   fight anybody is not physically imposing [TS]

00:27:50   person that has become the first book [TS]

00:27:52   starts with him basically getting [TS]

00:27:53   drummed out of the military military [TS]

00:27:56   which is his you know he's trying to [TS]

00:27:58   live up to his father who is this great [TS]

00:28:00   soldier like the ideal soldier so [TS]

00:28:02   possibly going so he goes over the [TS]

00:28:03   obstacle course knowing that when he [TS]

00:28:05   jumps down the other side is going to [TS]

00:28:06   shatter both the bones and all the bones [TS]

00:28:08   in his legs and and he does thank you [TS]

00:28:09   for mentioning his grandfather who is [TS]

00:28:11   yet another great minor character that [TS]

00:28:13   is somewhat questionable economic [TS]

00:28:16   forecast yes do you like him do you not [TS]

00:28:18   like him but he is fascinating character [TS]

00:28:20   I don't I really quite he is and any is [TS]

00:28:22   consistent right i mean you've actually [TS]

00:28:24   later find out more things about how [TS]

00:28:25   terrible he terrible things he did at [TS]

00:28:27   one point when miles was young yes but [TS]

00:28:30   he's at some point also not I you know [TS]

00:28:32   hehe has depth to him after on iPod [TS]

00:28:35   miles how to ride a horse [TS]

00:28:36   yeah I find it fascinating i don't know [TS]

00:28:37   how much he's in [TS]

00:28:38   first two books pre miles because i [TS]

00:28:41   still haven't read those too but even I [TS]

00:28:42   mean he's barely in the first book is a [TS]

00:28:44   barrier yeah he's barely in the first [TS]

00:28:46   book but you still get a tremendous [TS]

00:28:47   sense of the characters one how [TS]

00:28:50   important yet is that where this whole [TS]

00:28:52   two miles and has whole like heritage [TS]

00:28:54   and everything like he is often held up [TS]

00:28:57   as that ideal like both his father and [TS]

00:28:59   his grandfather is that ideal that miles [TS]

00:29:00   has do like basically the rest of the [TS]

00:29:03   entire like series is to a certain [TS]

00:29:04   extent miles trying to live up to this [TS]

00:29:06   is your grandfather both of them to both [TS]

00:29:08   his father and his grandfather and and [TS]

00:29:10   yet he can't in the way that they you [TS]

00:29:13   know he can't follow their footsteps but [TS]

00:29:16   he tried he does try to make his mark in [TS]

00:29:18   his own way again just rides too long [TS]

00:29:20   yeah cool went Wow and his grandfather [TS]

00:29:24   was on a horse so that makes it hard to [TS]

00:29:26   follow double stride nobody he learned [TS]

00:29:29   how to how to how to ride a horse and no [TS]

00:29:31   the grandfather is a very interesting [TS]

00:29:32   character and there's that whole [TS]

00:29:33   feudalism thing to worry the count goes [TS]

00:29:35   again I'm using side note that the [TS]

00:29:37   counts on Barry are were named for [TS]

00:29:39   because they were accounts at one point [TS]

00:29:41   that I that kills me that they would I [TS]

00:29:43   thought that was for their part of the [TS]

00:29:44   bureaucracy and the account so no not [TS]

00:29:47   like counts back on earth where there [TS]

00:29:48   was just the accountants and then [TS]

00:29:50   there's Lord for code again and then [TS]

00:29:51   when his grandfather dies his father [TS]

00:29:53   becomes Lordan or becomes count and he [TS]

00:29:55   becomes Lord for clothes again [TS]

00:29:57   yes and there's a whole honor system [TS]

00:29:59   there which is interesting and then when [TS]

00:30:01   he goes out in the wider wider galaxy [TS]

00:30:03   they don't really get the whole honor [TS]

00:30:05   system which is fascinating to and yet [TS]

00:30:07   because I word is 4 ko's again what huh [TS]

00:30:10   right i mean he's kind of almost a [TS]

00:30:11   fantasy character to ascertain exactly [TS]

00:30:13   talking science fiction units that's a [TS]

00:30:15   great way to look at absolutely [TS]

00:30:17   well that's why like I was initially [TS]

00:30:18   wary of the whole bar ER section because [TS]

00:30:21   it's kind of like I don't know about fan [TS]

00:30:23   only got a nineteenth-century that's a [TS]

00:30:25   really good yeah but it's a really good [TS]

00:30:27   book [TS]

00:30:28   no but all the thing is the thing is [TS]

00:30:29   though well yeah I haven't read i [TS]

00:30:31   haven't read those books but I it's on [TS]

00:30:33   my list after i created the end but no I [TS]

00:30:36   mean once once we get back to yes i will [TS]

00:30:38   once we get back to our ER with miles [TS]

00:30:43   I like it took me about two chapters and [TS]

00:30:46   then I was completely sold where you get [TS]

00:30:49   you get this you get the greater sense [TS]

00:30:50   like initially you have the weariness [TS]

00:30:52   ok you don't like feudal worlds with [TS]

00:30:55   high technology this is going to be [TS]

00:30:57   strange but there's a there's a great [TS]

00:30:59   short stories about the mountains of [TS]

00:31:00   mourning i think is better the first the [TS]

00:31:03   first short story and that one you know [TS]

00:31:05   again I went into it really kind of [TS]

00:31:07   skeptical or it's like okay this is [TS]

00:31:08   completely different this is very back [TS]

00:31:11   world as opposed to the hijinks that we [TS]

00:31:13   have been reading in in four game and [TS]

00:31:15   stuff like that right beside in space [TS]

00:31:17   and it's not in the big city with the [TS]

00:31:19   spaceport it's like out in the mountains [TS]

00:31:20   there are no checks with healthy and [TS]

00:31:22   which is in his little Eiffel and [TS]

00:31:24   there's no battery [TS]

00:31:25   yes there is no debashree whatsoever [TS]

00:31:27   night but maybe a murderer but not even [TS]

00:31:29   running water basically this yeah caves [TS]

00:31:32   well it gives it gives you a very kind [TS]

00:31:34   of Little House on the Prairie type feel [TS]

00:31:35   which but again you know you find [TS]

00:31:38   yourself being completely in trapped [TS]

00:31:40   with these characters where even though [TS]

00:31:42   I mean this short story can't be more I [TS]

00:31:44   don't read it on on ibooks so I can't [TS]

00:31:46   imagine it's that long a story but even [TS]

00:31:50   with the limited page count these [TS]

00:31:52   characters are wildly vivid and have a [TS]

00:31:54   great story to tell and you get [TS]

00:31:56   completely enraptured in them and you [TS]

00:31:58   get the the sense to about what miles is [TS]

00:32:00   up against because then that is a story [TS]

00:32:02   about and infanticide in it and it's [TS]

00:32:05   about that barrier and culture that you [TS]

00:32:07   know by all rights should have as his [TS]

00:32:10   grandfather would have advocated should [TS]

00:32:12   have killed miles when he was born so [TS]

00:32:15   that he couldn't pass on his his [TS]

00:32:17   mutation which he actually doesn't have [TS]

00:32:19   as i'd like to point out is actually [TS]

00:32:20   genetically find it was just an injured [TS]

00:32:22   utero complication commonality x-rite [TS]

00:32:27   yep that's true attempted assassination [TS]

00:32:29   not not a mutant it okay I'm gonna fire [TS]

00:32:31   off the spoiler warning now [TS]

00:32:34   not the spoiler spoiler flag on fire [TS]

00:32:37   laughter spoiler horn because i wanted [TS]

00:32:39   to mention one of the interesting things [TS]

00:32:41   that happens midway through the series [TS]

00:32:42   mom which is the fact that there's a so [TS]

00:32:47   miles is live living a double life he is [TS]

00:32:50   Admiral Naismith and he is Lord for [TS]

00:32:55   coach again right i think it starts off [TS]

00:32:57   by accident people and yeah but it [TS]

00:32:59   becomes useful and so that the the [TS]

00:33:01   Secret Service says yeah we're going to [TS]

00:33:02   find you sort of and you're gonna do [TS]

00:33:04   this so he's leading a double life it [TS]

00:33:06   seems a little implausible and then we [TS]

00:33:08   get to mirror dance right we're all of a [TS]

00:33:11   sudden he he's he's in the same place at [TS]

00:33:14   the same time everybody's gonna start [TS]

00:33:15   putting it together and you think well [TS]

00:33:17   miles how are you going to get out of [TS]

00:33:18   this one it's finally going to collapse [TS]

00:33:19   on you accept [TS]

00:33:21   oh he does have a double bond o has been [TS]

00:33:24   raised by komaram terrorists to replace [TS]

00:33:27   them in some crazy scheme to depose the [TS]

00:33:30   Emperor and what I love about all of [TS]

00:33:33   that is that it was your standard TV [TS]

00:33:36   response to that would be that you kill [TS]

00:33:38   the twin right right at the end of the [TS]

00:33:40   story right and instead there's like [TS]

00:33:43   whole books with the twin immediately [TS]

00:33:45   following right Martin becomes a very [TS]

00:33:48   important character and I fascinating [TS]

00:33:50   character as well so how great how great [TS]

00:33:53   is that that they that she went down [TS]

00:33:55   this kind of crazy premier dance I love [TS]

00:33:57   that book because it is so crazy that [TS]

00:33:58   it's like ok they're gonna deal with it [TS]

00:34:00   opened his buddies got a real double and [TS]

00:34:02   now the double is being him and now his [TS]

00:34:04   double is being his double and they [TS]

00:34:05   don't realize for a while that it's the [TS]

00:34:07   same guy and it's been how it [TS]

00:34:10   I couldn't believe it because it is such [TS]

00:34:13   a vivid departure stylistically because [TS]

00:34:15   that's like a footrace farcical well and [TS]

00:34:18   it becomes all moved to the certain [TS]

00:34:19   point maintaining that double identity [TS]

00:34:21   you know despite the fact that it seems [TS]

00:34:23   like oh by the skin of their teeth right [TS]

00:34:25   they managed to maintain it and then [TS]

00:34:27   almost immediately [TS]

00:34:29   that's undone in the beginning of memory [TS]

00:34:31   when you know basically miles that in a [TS]

00:34:35   scene that is horrific and yet kind of [TS]

00:34:37   funny at the same time miles basically [TS]

00:34:40   eat i want to exactly shoot himself in [TS]

00:34:42   the foot but maybe shoot someone else [TS]

00:34:45   chop somebody's late I mean what kind of [TS]

00:34:48   accident or who hasn't done that whoever [TS]

00:34:51   does not mean and all the sudden [TS]

00:34:53   everything that you've worked so hard to [TS]

00:34:55   maintain this one's a life is kind of [TS]

00:34:57   pull the rug out basically pulled out [TS]

00:34:59   from under it but it's it's only pulled [TS]

00:35:01   out from under him because he lies about [TS]

00:35:03   it [TS]

00:35:04   well yes and again because he's a jerk [TS]

00:35:05   like yes it is entirely flawed character [TS]

00:35:08   so here it is mirrored dance the book [TS]

00:35:11   where we meet [TS]

00:35:12   no brothers-in-arms brothers-in-arms the [TS]

00:35:13   book where we meet him and that's in in [TS]

00:35:15   england right that's on earth router [TS]

00:35:17   yeah mirror dance is the book where [TS]

00:35:19   miles is killed in action [TS]

00:35:21   yes it on ice lost yes and against [TS]

00:35:25   because my demonstration against mirror [TS]

00:35:28   dance and memory are kind of tight FRA [TS]

00:35:30   memory and a silly campaign which most [TS]

00:35:32   of you have not read i love this whole [TS]

00:35:34   campaign that brothers-in-arms mirror [TS]

00:35:36   dance memory that those three are so [TS]

00:35:38   great because because you you Haley [TS]

00:35:41   miles off the stage and bringing the [TS]

00:35:42   clone there's the crazy clone kind of [TS]

00:35:44   driving gets locked in a closet yeah [TS]

00:35:46   making hostage Yeah Yeah right and then [TS]

00:35:48   when they don't kill me don't kill mark [TS]

00:35:51   his clone and in fact mark becomes [TS]

00:35:53   vitally important because the only miles [TS]

00:35:56   that's active at that moment because the [TS]

00:35:58   other miles has been killed frozen and [TS]

00:36:01   lost [TS]

00:36:01   yes that's the first time you really get [TS]

00:36:03   more sleep Cordelia and in in Bari are [TS]

00:36:08   not in the first two books like you [TS]

00:36:10   really get a chance to see miles as [TS]

00:36:12   parents learned how important her [TS]

00:36:14   his parents were offering you get to see [TS]

00:36:16   what happens if miles was brought up [TS]

00:36:17   without his parents i'm here like he had [TS]

00:36:20   bad thing I i admit i'm actually one of [TS]

00:36:22   the things that disappoints me about the [TS]

00:36:23   series is that after the first two books [TS]

00:36:24   there isn't more of his parents because [TS]

00:36:27   his parents are fascinating characters [TS]

00:36:29   on their own right and they and they [TS]

00:36:31   carried a couple of books over you know [TS]

00:36:33   but but miles is such a larger-than-life [TS]

00:36:35   kind of characters not really room in [TS]

00:36:37   some ways right meds as major characters [TS]

00:36:39   but they do play very important parts [TS]

00:36:40   there they play very important parts in [TS]

00:36:42   a couple at least one of the other books [TS]

00:36:44   she can always go back home and write [TS]

00:36:47   something that inserts in between [TS]

00:36:48   she's talked about it yeah but i think [TS]

00:36:52   that hole that's the point where it [TS]

00:36:55   shifts and again it's appropriate sort [TS]

00:36:56   of that that's my leading 30 it's a [TS]

00:36:57   major turning [TS]

00:36:58   point and it the mirror dance sort of [TS]

00:37:01   inform and and memory which is the [TS]

00:37:02   aftermath is Wren was saying before you [TS]

00:37:04   know of this terrible sort of a huge the [TS]

00:37:07   sort of our comes to end with memory and [TS]

00:37:09   and in starting in memory the whole [TS]

00:37:11   identity miles is hold identity gets [TS]

00:37:14   shifted you know with the the wood the [TS]

00:37:16   Admiral Naismith persona basically you [TS]

00:37:18   know consigned to the dustbin in some [TS]

00:37:20   ways and that's sort of carried forward [TS]

00:37:24   from there as he and his new role you [TS]

00:37:27   know sort of adapts to well-being doing [TS]

00:37:30   back on Bari or in part of the barrio [TS]

00:37:31   culture in many ways i gotta say again [TS]

00:37:34   with the transition to bear when I first [TS]

00:37:36   found out what memory was about because [TS]

00:37:38   i couldn't get it because it was only [TS]

00:37:39   one with this group is always like oh [TS]

00:37:41   sure yeah it's like there's ok i'll read [TS]

00:37:44   that I'll read the paragraph on [TS]

00:37:45   wikipedia and then go to the next book [TS]

00:37:47   and i start i get a chapter into the [TS]

00:37:50   next book I'm kind of horrified and I'm [TS]

00:37:52   like wait no no names with what's going [TS]

00:37:55   on I can't handle it can you can you put [TS]

00:37:57   no I see you guys get the book i was and [TS]

00:37:59   and that's what happens when you don't [TS]

00:38:01   pay for right now it's just a lesson and [TS]

00:38:05   it was and it was and I went immediately [TS]

00:38:07   after reading about a chapter I was like [TS]

00:38:09   okay I can't do this so I went and I [TS]

00:38:11   found it on web scription or rather i [TS]

00:38:13   had Dan find it for me on web scription [TS]

00:38:15   and then downloaded it and read it all I [TS]

00:38:17   will tell you a funny story my cousin [TS]

00:38:19   recommended to this to me had read all [TS]

00:38:21   of them and somehow had missed memory i [TS]

00:38:23   guess and then later found it oh my god [TS]

00:38:26   for causing a book i haven't read and [TS]

00:38:27   went in and she's like now it's my [TS]

00:38:29   favorite is i love it but it's like at [TS]

00:38:30   the time it was like yeah i know i [TS]

00:38:32   missed something but I couldn't quite [TS]

00:38:34   figure out things different memory [TS]

00:38:37   memory and you know nice kind of a that [TS]

00:38:40   title right because miles has some [TS]

00:38:42   serious kind of aftermath of his because [TS]

00:38:46   happy somebody's legs having died and [TS]

00:38:48   been frozen and then misplaced in the [TS]

00:38:49   FedEx interstellar fedex system happens [TS]

00:38:53   it does you know you don't fill out the [TS]

00:38:55   bill right and it goes to some crazy [TS]

00:38:56   planet some crazy crazy planet so some [TS]

00:39:00   so there's that and then there's the [TS]

00:39:03   whole this this other minor character [TS]

00:39:05   who's Simon ilion excitement and he has [TS]

00:39:08   a malfunctioning memory chip of his own [TS]

00:39:11   and chip students not inside my head [TS]

00:39:13   side and I always takes with me [TS]

00:39:15   yeah and and that has huge ramifications [TS]

00:39:17   for everything that's happening barrier [TS]

00:39:19   and what miles is good for any more and [TS]

00:39:21   and yeah 30 hits back but it's it's it's [TS]

00:39:23   great because at that point you've [TS]

00:39:24   invested so much in the series that [TS]

00:39:26   scene changes in like the format of the [TS]

00:39:29   series is exciting and it's such an [TS]

00:39:32   orthogonal change in some ways right [TS]

00:39:33   because you kind of feel like alright [TS]

00:39:35   Myles got sidetracked he didn't get to [TS]

00:39:36   go into the military so we sort of goes [TS]

00:39:38   off on his arm and informs his own [TS]

00:39:40   mercenary group and then it's also sort [TS]

00:39:42   of working his way up through the [TS]

00:39:44   security forces at the same time you [TS]

00:39:46   think oh well you know so it's natural [TS]

00:39:47   progression might be someday he'll end [TS]

00:39:49   up in charge of the security forces or [TS]

00:39:50   whatever and then all the sudden that [TS]

00:39:52   takes like a left turn gets kicked out [TS]

00:39:54   right any kind of you know being miles [TS]

00:39:57   figures out a loophole and ona and an [TS]

00:40:00   opening somewhere for handwriting and [TS]

00:40:01   then gets offered the job and doesn't [TS]

00:40:03   take it right but anyways to she sings [TS]

00:40:07   she zigs when you think right you should [TS]

00:40:09   brush heads AG which is great again [TS]

00:40:11   excited that he is he is find something [TS]

00:40:13   he finds his calling in life I think [TS]

00:40:15   finally despite all these sort of you [TS]

00:40:17   know great opportunities he's taken [TS]

00:40:18   along the way these jobs i think [TS]

00:40:20   ultimately he finds the position that [TS]

00:40:23   that he is perfectly suited for which is [TS]

00:40:25   the sort of official troublemaker [TS]

00:40:28   that's true and i did like memory but I [TS]

00:40:30   thought that it was a like within you [TS]

00:40:33   know three chapters of reading it I knew [TS]

00:40:35   who did it and I knew what was gonna [TS]

00:40:38   happen at the end so i was little i mean [TS]

00:40:41   it's definitely more straightforward a [TS]

00:40:43   mystery than some of the other things [TS]

00:40:45   like especially something off mirrored [TS]

00:40:46   and there was a red herring you know [TS]

00:40:48   there was it was sort of an A or B or C [TS]

00:40:50   I guess there may be a couple red [TS]

00:40:52   herrings right at the same time I [TS]

00:40:55   thought it was so obvious that it [TS]

00:40:56   couldn't have been the answer and it [TS]

00:40:57   actually was the ah that's that's what [TS]

00:40:59   she was going to be out so and then i [TS]

00:41:02   guess i guess to me the plot was not the [TS]

00:41:04   central part that interact much out of [TS]

00:41:06   character it's about that [TS]

00:41:07   introducing himself back to barrio [TS]

00:41:09   that's my guess is Scott Scott McNulty [TS]

00:41:14   the last Judge Scott McNulty has ruled [TS]

00:41:17   all right i'll be going out [TS]

00:41:19   ok here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna [TS]

00:41:21   I'm gonna fire off the all clear because [TS]

00:41:24   we have a little bit more time but I [TS]

00:41:27   wanted to I wanted to bring back a few [TS]

00:41:30   things for people who are not [TS]

00:41:31   necessarily indoctrinated with the [TS]

00:41:32   entire for cosine series 11 order of [TS]

00:41:36   business is the reading order which I [TS]

00:41:37   wanted to ask everybody about and [TS]

00:41:40   especially Dan who's so well-versed in [TS]

00:41:41   this and ran who did it who did it in a [TS]

00:41:43   different order any idea about how would [TS]

00:41:47   you advise people read this series where [TS]

00:41:49   do you start if you haven't read any of [TS]

00:41:51   these books and you're intrigued by what [TS]

00:41:52   we've said where do you start [TS]

00:41:54   if you're already intrigued and you know [TS]

00:41:56   i think i said i recommend the wordpress [TS]

00:41:58   a lot of people that's because sometimes [TS]

00:41:59   I have you know it's difficult to sell [TS]

00:42:01   people on it and definitely more of an [TS]

00:42:03   adventure ebook and I think it a lot of [TS]

00:42:05   people get into it faster that way but [TS]

00:42:06   you know if you're already kind of [TS]

00:42:08   intrigued and looking at try it out I [TS]

00:42:09   say start at the beginning [TS]

00:42:10   Cordelia's honor de correos on art of [TS]

00:42:12   honor whatever you can find them and [TS]

00:42:14   start and go through chronologically [TS]

00:42:15   because i think you get much more out of [TS]

00:42:18   it reading everything in order and that [TS]

00:42:19   includes there are three or four short [TS]

00:42:22   stories that are sort of sprinkled in [TS]

00:42:23   between but comet specific places and [TS]

00:42:26   it's important I think to read them in [TS]

00:42:28   those specific places because they play [TS]

00:42:30   very heavily into what some of the [TS]

00:42:32   subsequent stories are about and when i [TS]

00:42:34   read it unfortunately i tried to sort of [TS]

00:42:36   do that because the short stories have [TS]

00:42:38   been collected into a volume called [TS]

00:42:40   borders of infinity which is also the [TS]

00:42:42   name of one of the short stories in the [TS]

00:42:44   volume which is confusing [TS]

00:42:46   I'm gonna need a shirt yes and in fact [TS]

00:42:48   to make it more confusing that short [TS]

00:42:50   story collection has a framing story [TS]

00:42:52   that that connects those three short [TS]

00:42:53   stories which is of miles in a hospital [TS]

00:42:56   bed sort of relating these stories to [TS]

00:42:58   Simon alien and but the problem same [TS]

00:43:01   time solving a mystery there is a plot [TS]

00:43:03   to the framing story however it's very [TS]

00:43:06   you [TS]

00:43:06   I think it's very hard to find that [TS]

00:43:07   short story collection as it is because [TS]

00:43:09   the short stories have now been folded [TS]

00:43:11   into the omnibuses in the correct [TS]

00:43:13   chronological ride just do that you'll [TS]

00:43:15   miss out on that famous story but [TS]

00:43:16   honestly it's not so important that it [TS]

00:43:17   will play on top of that the framing [TS]

00:43:19   story actually come [TS]

00:43:20   after brothers-in-arms I mean yeah it's [TS]

00:43:23   serious it's very to hear so I tried to [TS]

00:43:25   read them jumping back and forth [TS]

00:43:26   literally like I would put down one book [TS]

00:43:27   alright let me read this starts right [TS]

00:43:29   ok let me go to this other book alright [TS]

00:43:30   let me go back to the short wait but I [TS]

00:43:31   had start being the shortest here this [TS]

00:43:33   is why the Omnibus collection is [TS]

00:43:35   probably the best idea I was highly [TS]

00:43:36   recommend the emphasis on a because [TS]

00:43:38   they're easy to find because they put [TS]

00:43:41   things in the correct order and see [TS]

00:43:43   because i don't think you can get a lot [TS]

00:43:44   of other than the ebook format i don't [TS]

00:43:46   think you can get a lot of the single [TS]

00:43:48   volumes in print and and ran you so [TS]

00:43:52   you've read them and in i skipped over [TS]

00:43:54   the initial i skipped over the initial [TS]

00:43:55   to but apart from that I've read them in [TS]

00:43:57   chronological order as best as I could I [TS]

00:44:00   short stories I will reiterate are [TS]

00:44:03   really important and there are two books [TS]

00:44:05   I think either ethan of athos and [TS]

00:44:07   calling free which are not miles centric [TS]

00:44:12   and of the latter one falling free is [TS]

00:44:15   not even characters we know centric [TS]

00:44:17   because it's set 200 years in the past [TS]

00:44:18   and those two initially seemed like oh [TS]

00:44:21   those are easy ones to skip over because [TS]

00:44:23   they don't directly relate to the plot [TS]

00:44:25   but falling free really focuses on [TS]

00:44:27   something that's going to happen in the [TS]

00:44:29   brunette what because that is a simple [TS]

00:44:31   diplomatic diplomatic immunity and [TS]

00:44:33   that's I feel like that's really [TS]

00:44:34   important for diplomatic i have not read [TS]

00:44:37   forward yes I know why I'm shred I had a [TS]

00:44:41   40 second book that Dan Morgan has not [TS]

00:44:43   which I really hilarious did it is it is [TS]

00:44:46   well so i'll say this i wish i hadn't [TS]

00:44:48   read ethan of athos because it's crappy [TS]

00:44:50   it's it's a little weird but I but at [TS]

00:44:53   the same time I argue that boy it has [TS]

00:44:56   backstory to to him [TS]

00:44:58   yeah a little bit of Quinn Quinn which I [TS]

00:45:01   think well I think it's interesting [TS]

00:45:02   because up until then we only know her [TS]

00:45:05   as kind of a nameless face you know [TS]

00:45:07   literally that's what I was trying to be [TS]

00:45:11   vague since we don't have to spoil her [TS]

00:45:13   on but no I mean yes that's right those [TS]

00:45:17   who have been reading will get matchup [TS]

00:45:19   anyway um yeah I i read it in [TS]

00:45:22   chronological order which I highly [TS]

00:45:23   highly recommend because you know [TS]

00:45:25   everything makes sense to me she built a [TS]

00:45:28   following for these books and then [TS]

00:45:29   decided she would dive back into parts [TS]

00:45:31   of the storyline and [TS]

00:45:32   and so in the major points and 10 miles [TS]

00:45:35   is life seemed to appear sort of an [TS]

00:45:36   order but there are other pieces that [TS]

00:45:38   she went kind of went back with but if [TS]

00:45:40   you're just discovering it now [TS]

00:45:41   you know it makes more sense to read it [TS]

00:45:44   in that in the order of miles as [TS]

00:45:46   timeline and not in the order that she [TS]

00:45:48   wrote them there are some quirks and I [TS]

00:45:50   were talking about this the other day [TS]

00:45:51   that that the sea gardens or this kind [TS]

00:45:53   of mystery a group of humans and who [TS]

00:45:56   have their their empire and they're kind [TS]

00:45:58   of scary under the baddies and then [TS]

00:46:00   there's a book called see ganda where [TS]

00:46:01   they go to see God and miles hasn't been [TS]

00:46:03   yet adventures as he does and one of the [TS]

00:46:07   funny things about it is I read that [TS]

00:46:08   meant that they appear again in one of [TS]

00:46:11   the short stories and the view of them [TS]

00:46:13   is very different in that because it was [TS]

00:46:15   obviously written well before she [TS]

00:46:17   decided to write a novel about who they [TS]

00:46:19   are and what their culture is so it's a [TS]

00:46:21   little bit that's one the one seam where [TS]

00:46:23   I really noticed it but otherwise i'm [TS]

00:46:25   i'm really happy to have been able to [TS]

00:46:27   follow miles in his life and his [TS]

00:46:29   progression instead of hopping around [TS]

00:46:32   which i think would be confusion cryo [TS]

00:46:37   burn the new book in the series comes [TS]

00:46:42   with a CD and one of the funny things [TS]

00:46:46   about the publisher is that the [TS]

00:46:47   publisher is declared that as long as [TS]

00:46:49   you don't sell it you are free to [TS]

00:46:51   distribute the CD any way you see fit [TS]

00:46:53   so of course people have posted on the [TS]

00:46:55   internet and it's legal and as a result [TS]

00:46:58   essentially they have given away every [TS]

00:47:01   book in the series except for memory [TS]

00:47:03   which we all just raped about so you're [TS]

00:47:06   going to buy that one [TS]

00:47:07   so this is this is the good news here [TS]

00:47:10   right is that if if what we've said [TS]

00:47:11   interests you you actually can go out [TS]

00:47:14   and get these books in epub or prc2 you [TS]

00:47:19   can get you whatever too much every [TS]

00:47:20   format or ml yeah and put it on whatever [TS]

00:47:25   device you one if you want to do the eep [TS]

00:47:26   the e-reader thing the Scott McNulty [TS]

00:47:29   thing i should say i think that election [TS]

00:47:31   even includes a the Vorkosigan companion [TS]

00:47:35   it just does which I actually own [TS]

00:47:37   hardcover copy of which includes much [TS]

00:47:38   essays and interesting i am in total [TS]

00:47:40   total nerd i actually printed them all [TS]

00:47:43   out and [TS]

00:47:44   because you're well known to taste for [TS]

00:47:47   e-books yes exactly you do lose lose [TS]

00:47:50   track of the fact of how long they are [TS]

00:47:52   you just you know criminals they're [TS]

00:47:54   different perspective changes the stream [TS]

00:47:56   that's right that's kinda like yeah why [TS]

00:47:59   it's scott said that he read a bunch of [TS]

00:48:01   monroe I actually read all of them up to [TS]

00:48:04   memory in a row with no other books that [TS]

00:48:07   i read and then I paused and said you [TS]

00:48:09   know i got i gotta read the dream of [TS]

00:48:10   perpetual motion i gotta rehabbing [TS]

00:48:12   safely in a science fictional universe [TS]

00:48:14   which we covered in a previous podcast i [TS]

00:48:15   gotta read some other stuff going to mix [TS]

00:48:17   it up take a little break for miles [TS]

00:48:18   before I'm going on a trip i'll probably [TS]

00:48:20   jump back in but it was kind of nice to [TS]

00:48:22   take a little break but it was so much [TS]

00:48:23   fun to read whatever that is eight books [TS]

00:48:25   all in a row with that kind of sprawling [TS]

00:48:27   saga of the end i love long series and I [TS]

00:48:31   think that's part of what got me really [TS]

00:48:32   into it was I just enjoy seeing [TS]

00:48:34   characters develop over a long period of [TS]

00:48:36   time ya in that sort of epic scale same [TS]

00:48:39   reason I like TV shows i think that it's [TS]

00:48:40   you get a kind of depth that you don't [TS]

00:48:42   necessarily get in a movie or in a [TS]

00:48:44   one-shot and so that's that's kind of [TS]

00:48:47   fun and it's it's nice to feel rewarded [TS]

00:48:49   as a reader when there are references to [TS]

00:48:52   things occasionally an oblique ones to [TS]

00:48:55   things that have happened before you [TS]

00:48:56   think ah I get that I get that that's a [TS]

00:48:59   joke but it's nice it's a nice feeling [TS]

00:49:02   yeah yeah and I was intimidated when I [TS]

00:49:06   saw those things on Hugo list and kind [TS]

00:49:08   of series and all that but it's it's [TS]

00:49:10   good it's a lot of fun and so I think [TS]

00:49:11   people shouldn't be should be terrified [TS]

00:49:13   by the fact that it's a series and you [TS]

00:49:14   can you know if you read that first on a [TS]

00:49:17   bus and then maybe the you know that [TS]

00:49:19   that first book with Myles I think [TS]

00:49:21   you're going to find that it's a lot of [TS]

00:49:22   fun and and they are self-contained in [TS]

00:49:24   the sense that you know it's not as if [TS]

00:49:25   they're it's not like those george RR [TS]

00:49:27   martin books the the game of thrones [TS]

00:49:29   which I love but they have no ending [TS]

00:49:31   they just continued interest cap really [TS]

00:49:34   just started like I have no idea who it [TS]

00:49:36   was characters are I'm going on i read [TS]

00:49:38   two or three of those in a row and again [TS]

00:49:39   you could not even really to other than [TS]

00:49:40   the fact that there's kind of a climax [TS]

00:49:42   in a series of cliffhangers you can't [TS]

00:49:43   really tell it's one long story as [TS]

00:49:45   opposed to being episodes in this yes [TS]

00:49:47   one and that's what this that's what [TS]

00:49:49   these are which means that you shouldn't [TS]

00:49:50   feel to get back to another topic of [TS]

00:49:52   many of our podcast that the idea that [TS]

00:49:54   what you're you get you got ripped off [TS]

00:49:56   you get to the end and you gotta buy the [TS]

00:49:57   next [TS]

00:49:58   to find out what happens there are not [TS]

00:49:59   the case at all with the Vorkosigan [TS]

00:50:01   novels and that's nice because i think [TS]

00:50:03   it means that you can try them out [TS]

00:50:04   without fear that you're going to get [TS]

00:50:05   the shaft [TS]

00:50:06   well she even said I mean she wrote a [TS]

00:50:08   lot of these so that they could be easy [TS]

00:50:10   jumping in points for people who had no [TS]

00:50:13   prior knowledge of what throwing on in [TS]

00:50:15   any order I think you could probably [TS]

00:50:16   appreciate some of them not necessarily [TS]

00:50:19   all of them but some of them you could [TS]

00:50:21   probably definitely excel when you [TS]

00:50:23   presented a logical order of Athos haha [TS]

00:50:26   yes if you ever asked yourself what [TS]

00:50:28   would happen if men invented a device [TS]

00:50:32   that would allow them to have children [TS]

00:50:34   without the participation of women and [TS]

00:50:37   create an all-male society if you've [TS]

00:50:39   ever wondered if there could be a great [TS]

00:50:41   science-fiction novel that accepted [TS]

00:50:43   these gender roles ethan of athos is [TS]

00:50:45   sadly not that novel because it's not [TS]

00:50:48   very good i will say that that [TS]

00:50:49   technology which plays a major part in [TS]

00:50:51   much of the red miles three-story only [TS]

00:50:54   is it ended and in much of barrios [TS]

00:50:56   development you know that's a big deal i [TS]

00:50:58   think that is one of her intriguing like [TS]

00:51:00   like we were talking about earlier i [TS]

00:51:01   think scott was saying it's something [TS]

00:51:03   that kind of floats underneath the [TS]

00:51:04   surface there she doesn't necessarily [TS]

00:51:06   draw a lot of attention to think how [TS]

00:51:08   important it would be if we invented [TS]

00:51:10   this thing all right but it plays a lot [TS]

00:51:12   of important parts and gets you to think [TS]

00:51:13   about how what would the impact of this [TS]

00:51:16   particular technology if he if women [TS]

00:51:18   didn't need to carry fetuses to [TS]

00:51:20   terminate you could just stick them in a [TS]

00:51:22   in a metal box and debate okay yeah [TS]

00:51:25   nothing but trouble nothing but trouble [TS]

00:51:28   LT and we i was thinking what else have [TS]

00:51:30   we have we not talked about that we [TS]

00:51:32   should make sure to get on my thing that [TS]

00:51:34   I I thought it was a we didn't really [TS]

00:51:36   talk about the difference between the [TS]

00:51:38   cultures of again one of things i love [TS]

00:51:40   about the John Barnes thousand cultures [TS]

00:51:41   those are actually sore earth cultures [TS]

00:51:44   transplanted to other planets hear what [TS]

00:51:46   you've got is these cultures that have [TS]

00:51:47   evolved over time on these different [TS]

00:51:49   planets based on the that the politics [TS]

00:51:52   and the the movement of the two of the [TS]

00:51:53   technology which i really like the fact [TS]

00:51:55   that there are back waters and that [TS]

00:51:56   there's bits of territory that can be [TS]

00:51:59   you know that that you know the politics [TS]

00:52:02   are of the universe not just a bar but [TS]

00:52:04   of the universe and the galaxies are [TS]

00:52:05   very interesting and because of the [TS]

00:52:07   structure of the you've got jump points [TS]

00:52:09   and some places are back waters in some [TS]

00:52:10   places are [TS]

00:52:11   our transfer points but the culture [TS]

00:52:14   especially of the baton my beta colony [TS]

00:52:18   which is where miles is mom is from and [TS]

00:52:20   a bar ER where his dad is from [TS]

00:52:22   fascinating is the bait the bait ins are [TS]

00:52:24   on one level you think well they're [TS]

00:52:27   kinda more like us and then you realize [TS]

00:52:28   they're really matter where they are the [TS]

00:52:31   day and the bar ends are both polar [TS]

00:52:34   opposites of kind of each other and are [TS]

00:52:36   headed in different directions from our [TS]

00:52:38   kind of culture modern culture which is [TS]

00:52:41   fascinating so you've got this kind of [TS]

00:52:42   regression and this strange progression [TS]

00:52:45   and I I think that's kind of fascinating [TS]

00:52:47   look at any kind of as a liberal [TS]

00:52:49   conservative kind of you but it goes it [TS]

00:52:51   goes wildly more on tonight's not quite [TS]

00:52:54   that simple yeah no not not at all well [TS]

00:52:56   this book is not about black and white [TS]

00:52:58   right there there you know the buttons [TS]

00:53:00   are kind of hedonistic and they they [TS]

00:53:01   have it all their babies are carried in [TS]

00:53:03   these in these metal boxes and and they [TS]

00:53:06   are [TS]

00:53:06   yeah they're wild and crazy and they've [TS]

00:53:08   got a third gender is walking around and [TS]

00:53:10   and then the bar yarns are are these you [TS]

00:53:13   know sort of Russian serious slovak [TS]

00:53:17   Russian kind of people in there in there [TS]

00:53:19   there feudalism in the background [TS]

00:53:21   they've got their kind of low slung [TS]

00:53:22   buildings and there's hardscrabble and [TS]

00:53:24   you know cities and and they've lived [TS]

00:53:27   for a couple hundred years to completely [TS]

00:53:30   cut off and and they're kind of grumpy [TS]

00:53:32   about this new technology which is [TS]

00:53:34   really interesting well you also look at [TS]

00:53:35   the kind of the anarchists Jackson's [TS]

00:53:37   hole which i think is a nice kind of [TS]

00:53:39   third-party to the right right where you [TS]

00:53:41   have you know this series of releases [TS]

00:53:43   satellites its plant materials [TS]

00:53:45   yeah its most yeah it's berenis the [TS]

00:53:48   Baron different forbear yeah and [TS]

00:53:52   something they're all ya around charges [TS]

00:53:54   you know black market weapons and and [TS]

00:53:57   eat illegal genetic trades the where you [TS]

00:53:59   can get anything to them yes the most [TS]

00:54:01   isolated for this universe and then [TS]

00:54:02   you've got the seat again there who are [TS]

00:54:04   this you know strange there the genetic [TS]

00:54:06   engineers and it's this incredibly [TS]

00:54:08   complicated culture that i would imagine [TS]

00:54:09   it reminded me of a lot of stories about [TS]

00:54:12   sort of the mystery of the Orient when [TS]

00:54:14   people when Western explorers went to [TS]

00:54:16   China or Japan and never like what the [TS]

00:54:18   hell is going on I don't understand [TS]

00:54:19   anything that these people doing [TS]

00:54:20   it's like that it's almost like hard to [TS]

00:54:22   understand [TS]

00:54:23   complexity of the culture from the [TS]

00:54:24   outside and gradually kind of figuring [TS]

00:54:26   out but it's it's you know and the fact [TS]

00:54:28   that they're all genetically engineered [TS]

00:54:30   to meet higher culture is about genetic [TS]

00:54:31   engineering in a way that is in some [TS]

00:54:34   ways completely outrageous to the extent [TS]

00:54:36   they take it and then again there's sort [TS]

00:54:37   of not necessarily judgments about the [TS]

00:54:40   the the culture is good or bad there's a [TS]

00:54:42   lot of shades of grey [TS]

00:54:43   well and then you throw in you know I [TS]

00:54:45   know you guys most of you have not read [TS]

00:54:46   kumar but like either you get you get [TS]

00:54:48   hints of the commands early in some of [TS]

00:54:50   the earlier brace right and who they are [TS]

00:54:52   which is basically a culture that you [TS]

00:54:54   know in so many ways was oppressed and [TS]

00:54:55   and conquer they conquered by today [TS]

00:54:57   because they are there like Poland there [TS]

00:54:59   like in the way of everybody's but you [TS]

00:55:00   get a little more this goal you get a [TS]

00:55:02   lot of a little more interest in them [TS]

00:55:05   starting tomorrow and more background on [TS]

00:55:07   what the whole planet and what that [TS]

00:55:08   whole culture is like which is also very [TS]

00:55:10   interesting in its own way [TS]

00:55:12   given the miles his father as is known [TS]

00:55:13   as the butcher of kumar and then and [TS]

00:55:15   marco was raised by tomorrow and let me [TS]

00:55:17   tell you didn't go to I gonna get that [TS]

00:55:22   nickname yeah that's a bad sign [TS]

00:55:24   yes anything else we should talk about [TS]

00:55:26   about the Vorkosigan saga that something [TS]

00:55:29   that we haven't mentioned in the time i [TS]

00:55:31   would like to connect with Embry plug [TS]

00:55:32   for one of her other books were just not [TS]

00:55:35   a John McNulty's again candy i will [TS]

00:55:38   allow it [TS]

00:55:38   alright I think she has written another [TS]

00:55:42   I another's fantasy series at least the [TS]

00:55:46   first two books which are quite good the [TS]

00:55:48   cursor Challon and if you're interested [TS]

00:55:52   in fantasy and sort of an interesting [TS]

00:55:54   take and again i think was kind of cool [TS]

00:55:56   is that she takes these these books are [TS]

00:55:58   from my an interesting perspective the [TS]

00:56:00   characters are very interesting so i [TS]

00:56:02   would i would recommend the cursor [TS]

00:56:03   Chilean and its follow-up the paladin of [TS]

00:56:05   souls both of which are more interesting [TS]

00:56:07   fantasy kind of fantasy is that is that [TS]

00:56:08   like a system like magic or swords or [TS]

00:56:11   dragons yeah there's a little bit of [TS]

00:56:12   magic but I think again what's really [TS]

00:56:14   interesting is the culture America's [TS]

00:56:16   this one is pinned largely on there's a [TS]

00:56:18   universe of with five gods and she sort [TS]

00:56:20   of said that her idea was to write five [TS]

00:56:24   books each of which represents one of [TS]

00:56:26   these five gods or is told the point of [TS]

00:56:28   view of a character who's in some way [TS]

00:56:29   somatically linked to one of the gods [TS]

00:56:32   and she has finished three of them I [TS]

00:56:34   thought the first you were quite good [TS]

00:56:35   the third one lightbulb it for me [TS]

00:56:36   and she said well I keep thinking about [TS]

00:56:38   the fourth and fifth but she hasn't [TS]

00:56:39   quite nailed down with what they are [TS]

00:56:41   about yet but i think she will she will [TS]

00:56:42   get them at some point Scott ren you [TS]

00:56:44   have any any other thoughts about for [TS]

00:56:47   coast again looks great [TS]

00:56:49   they're good yeah there they are good [TS]

00:56:51   even though i don't like the main [TS]

00:56:52   character enjoy the books now that's an [TS]

00:56:54   endorsement [TS]

00:56:55   yes it is a lot of fun and I think [TS]

00:56:57   there's something to be said for that [TS]

00:56:58   that's the same reason i read a I've [TS]

00:57:00   read a bunch of the jack mcdevitt sci-fi [TS]

00:57:02   which is you know net not gonna win any [TS]

00:57:04   awards for pros styling but it's [TS]

00:57:07   interstellar spaceship mystery kind of [TS]

00:57:10   stuff and it's fun it's great and i felt [TS]

00:57:12   i had that kind of vibe that they're [TS]

00:57:14   better written than McDevitt's but but I [TS]

00:57:16   had the same kind of vibe where it's [TS]

00:57:18   it's it's such a joy to read them and [TS]

00:57:20   and I think they're me that that's what [TS]

00:57:22   it comes down to is their stories that i [TS]

00:57:24   love and you know I could certainly a [TS]

00:57:27   lot of my writing has been influenced by [TS]

00:57:29   her books and all of your storage [TS]

00:57:32   feature short characters than just [TS]

00:57:35   barrel through actually explains a lot [TS]

00:57:37   after reading these books I i saw the [TS]

00:57:40   connections in resurrection men which is [TS]

00:57:43   one of yours Stan yeah I you know and I [TS]

00:57:45   i think a lot of that is sort of a majj [TS]

00:57:47   part of it so much part of its just I [TS]

00:57:49   really enjoyed the fun aspect that I [TS]

00:57:50   want you know i love reading a good romp [TS]

00:57:53   and I think all these books can be [TS]

00:57:54   classified that and and they have [TS]

00:57:56   another level to them yet is great if [TS]

00:57:59   you want to look deeper there's there's [TS]

00:58:00   certainly stuff there but even if you [TS]

00:58:01   just want to take it at the surface [TS]

00:58:02   value of a fun adventure in a [TS]

00:58:05   swashbuckling type adventure and then [TS]

00:58:07   you can do just that [TS]

00:58:08   that's right your buckle will be [TS]

00:58:09   splashed there's no doubt the swash will [TS]

00:58:12   be buckled is the who don't know what i [TS]

00:58:14   did i was reading an interview with the [TS]

00:58:16   old where she they were asking her you [TS]

00:58:19   know how do you write this and what's [TS]

00:58:20   your process and she said that she [TS]

00:58:23   thinks to herself when she gets to a [TS]

00:58:25   point of action what's the worst [TS]

00:58:28   possible thing that could happen to this [TS]

00:58:29   character and that's what she does and [TS]

00:58:32   as i was reading the books you could [TS]

00:58:34   clearly see that soft process you have [TS]

00:58:36   that moment of oh no what's going to [TS]

00:58:40   dive and this time I'll or I'm n divided [TS]

00:58:43   yes I went to a reading bible job last [TS]

00:58:46   year and she read a brief excerpt of a [TS]

00:58:48   forthcoming book which means [TS]

00:58:50   does not finish it or had not finished [TS]

00:58:51   the time which is centered on Ivan which [TS]

00:58:53   I'm that's a light looking forward to [TS]

00:58:56   since he is a an interesting character [TS]

00:58:57   in my will I will leave with my favorite [TS]

00:59:00   my favorite description of him which i [TS]

00:59:01   think might be cordial saying he may be [TS]

00:59:03   the smartest one of us all so i'm a bit [TS]

00:59:08   of housekeeping before we go the next [TS]

00:59:09   book in the book club is indeed going to [TS]

00:59:11   be the dream of perpetual motion that [TS]

00:59:13   will be in a few weeks [TS]

00:59:15   read it people on the not not not you [TS]

00:59:18   dear listener looking at the end with me [TS]

00:59:21   read it it is it is quite different [TS]

00:59:24   it is i will have to chip in his years [TS]

00:59:26   it is and there is a Zeppelin in it and [TS]

00:59:28   it is this beautiful actually I I'm [TS]

00:59:31   still processing it myself but I is [TS]

00:59:33   beautifully written and very interesting [TS]

00:59:35   and has a very strange ending but but [TS]

00:59:38   enough of of that that's next time and [TS]

00:59:40   then looking at a little further [TS]

00:59:42   we're also going to talk about Ted chang [TS]

00:59:45   and stories of your life and others and [TS]

00:59:47   some other short stories by him so you [TS]

00:59:48   might want to check that out if you [TS]

00:59:50   haven't read that yet and I think we [TS]

00:59:51   also have a fantasy podcast in our [TS]

00:59:53   future where we're going to talk about [TS]

00:59:54   some fantasy stuff including george RR [TS]

00:59:57   martin and the game of [TS]

00:59:57   martin and the game of [TS]

01:00:00   groans along with some other stuff so [TS]

01:00:02   until then until next time i'd like to [TS]

01:00:04   thank my guest dan morgan who brought [TS]

01:00:06   this upon us all [TS]

01:00:07   thank you for recommending this series [TS]

01:00:08   it's delightful [TS]

01:00:10   you are so welcome and i'm glad that you [TS]

01:00:12   all enjoyed it except for Scott under [TS]

01:00:15   you're not glad I enjoyed it [TS]

01:00:16   I'm not glad you enjoyed it gotten but [TS]

01:00:19   but Scott you did enjoy right i did in [TS]

01:00:21   fact enjoy so thank you for sharing your [TS]

01:00:23   love and and I know breaking down in [TS]

01:00:25   admitting that Dan recommended something [TS]

01:00:27   good because I know that's hard last [TS]

01:00:28   however it is it is to dan is my [TS]

01:00:31   arch-nemesis it is true he used to just [TS]

01:00:34   be your nemesis but I think you killed [TS]

01:00:36   your arch-nemesis right so he had [TS]

01:00:38   instant write an open slot [TS]

01:00:40   yeah yep it happens good on you upward [TS]

01:00:42   months god yeah that's happened I have a [TS]

01:00:44   nemesis tournament bracket system so the [TS]

01:00:48   ELO rating champion morning has gone up [TS]

01:00:51   his nose [TS]

01:00:51   alright alright and serenity called well [TS]

01:00:55   thank you for joining us in this in the [TS]

01:00:57   spine madness thank you i'm going to go [TS]

01:00:59   leave and lead the rest of cry over now [TS]

01:01:01   wow wow i'm way behind now [TS]

01:01:04   until next time I hope we've provided [TS]

01:01:06   you with lots of things to think about [TS]

01:01:07   and read it on the incomparable podcast [TS]

01:01:10   I'm Jason Snell to next time thanks for [TS]

01:01:13   listenin [TS]