The Incomparable

23: Origin Story


00:00:00   the incomparable time test number 20 [TS]

00:00:08   really everybody 2011 [TS]

00:00:12   we're back on the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:00:17   the topic today is movies and we're [TS]

00:00:20   going to talk about superhero movies [TS]

00:00:23   there was a time when there were not [TS]

00:00:24   very many superhero movies at all at [TS]

00:00:27   that time is not the last 10 years when [TS]

00:00:29   there's been a horrible horrible glut of [TS]

00:00:31   them [TS]

00:00:31   we're going to talk about superhero [TS]

00:00:33   movies that we love the ones that we [TS]

00:00:34   hate once we think are overrated and [TS]

00:00:36   underrated and two to help me down this [TS]

00:00:40   path to the land of Metropolis and other [TS]

00:00:45   strange fictional superhero cities i am [TS]

00:00:47   joined by my guess [TS]

00:00:49   ben boychuk coming to you live from my [TS]

00:00:53   secret lair somewhere in southern [TS]

00:00:55   california [TS]

00:00:56   nice nice John siracusa I am ready you [TS]

00:01:01   are ready to you are you wearing a a an [TS]

00:01:04   outfit superhero pajamas yes alright [TS]

00:01:06   excellent and and serenity caldwell who [TS]

00:01:09   is not wearing a cape because capes are [TS]

00:01:11   terrible no capes no capes they're [TS]

00:01:14   dangerous they're not just terrible [TS]

00:01:15   they're dangerous they are [TS]

00:01:18   it makes me wonder actually the wisdom [TS]

00:01:20   of NBC doing a show called the Cape when [TS]

00:01:23   it had already been established no capes [TS]

00:01:25   I thought we weren't supposed to talk [TS]

00:01:27   about that let's not never do whatever [TS]

00:01:29   you got a real show [TS]

00:01:30   don't mention the Cape that's for the TV [TS]

00:01:33   podcast although somebody would actually [TS]

00:01:35   have to watch it and talk about it [TS]

00:01:37   I've got scared off by how terrible the [TS]

00:01:40   comments about it works so i didn't [TS]

00:01:42   watch it [TS]

00:01:44   who so I'd like to start on a on a [TS]

00:01:47   negative note because that's that's just [TS]

00:01:49   the way i roll and talk about movies [TS]

00:01:52   that we think are overrated superhero [TS]

00:01:55   movies movies that you're tired of [TS]

00:01:57   hearing how good they are and that you [TS]

00:01:58   personally have some issues issues with [TS]

00:02:01   and think that we should appreciate them [TS]

00:02:03   quite so much John I'm gonna I'm gonna [TS]

00:02:05   look to you to help kick this off on a [TS]

00:02:07   negative note that's a big mistake [TS]

00:02:09   because all my choices are going to be [TS]

00:02:10   the same as your choices so every one of [TS]

00:02:12   these things you let me go first started [TS]

00:02:13   this before you are not going to steal [TS]

00:02:15   all your answers that's fine i'm i'm the [TS]

00:02:16   host i can just lean back and enjoy you [TS]

00:02:19   agreeing re yeah so i'm gonna steal your [TS]

00:02:21   answer for this one because you've [TS]

00:02:22   already talked about it and [TS]

00:02:23   I totally agree overrated as the dark [TS]

00:02:25   knight not because it's such a terrible [TS]

00:02:28   movie because it wasn't terrible but [TS]

00:02:30   because it's god I think it's got the [TS]

00:02:32   superhero movie equivalent of second [TS]

00:02:34   system syndrome [TS]

00:02:35   I don't know if you know that as well as [TS]

00:02:36   a computer term for you make the first [TS]

00:02:39   one and you went after you've made the [TS]

00:02:41   first one the people who made it realize [TS]

00:02:42   all the mistakes they made and all all [TS]

00:02:44   the shortcuts they had to take the [TS]

00:02:45   limitations that are inherent in it and [TS]

00:02:47   when they get a chance to make a second [TS]

00:02:48   one they say we're not going to make any [TS]

00:02:49   of those mistakes right we're going to [TS]

00:02:51   fix all the things we couldn't do before [TS]

00:02:53   put everything in it didn't fit that we [TS]

00:02:55   ran out of time for and just ends up [TS]

00:02:57   with everything in the kitchen sink [TS]

00:02:58   inside it and that's kind of like what [TS]

00:03:00   the dark knight is it's a superhero [TS]

00:03:02   movie that tries to have everything in [TS]

00:03:04   it you know great acting dramatic fight [TS]

00:03:06   scenes amazing villain and every [TS]

00:03:09   possible scenario you can imagine for [TS]

00:03:11   the villain to go in a you know a love [TS]

00:03:13   story the loss of a main character [TS]

00:03:15   revenge and it just it just ends up [TS]

00:03:18   being too much the dark knight is a [TS]

00:03:19   great great movie for about sixty [TS]

00:03:21   percent and then it just doesn't end it [TS]

00:03:23   keeps going keeps trying to have more [TS]

00:03:25   and it it goes off the rails at the end [TS]

00:03:27   I don't wanna I don't wanna draw a [TS]

00:03:30   parallel between the dark knight and [TS]

00:03:33   batman returns the second of the tim [TS]

00:03:36   burton Batman's which is a far better [TS]

00:03:39   returns far inferior to the dark knight [TS]

00:03:41   i would say the dark knight is a good [TS]

00:03:42   movie it's just horribly overrated but [TS]

00:03:45   they are similar in that both of them [TS]

00:03:48   the first movie was successful had a lot [TS]

00:03:50   of constraints that I think may have [TS]

00:03:52   made them successful and then they took [TS]

00:03:53   all the constraints off and and the with [TS]

00:03:56   batman returns it was really like okay [TS]

00:03:59   well we made Tim Burton act like a [TS]

00:04:01   grown-up he made a good movie now will [TS]

00:04:02   let him do whatever the hell he wants [TS]

00:04:04   oh god he made he's made something [TS]

00:04:06   atrocious [TS]

00:04:08   not to mention the fact that that why is [TS]

00:04:10   it that superhero movie franchises feel [TS]

00:04:12   that once a movie is successful the best [TS]

00:04:14   way to do a sequel is by multiplying the [TS]

00:04:16   number of villains in it by a factor of [TS]

00:04:18   three [TS]

00:04:19   Oh God well the doctor i didn't have [TS]

00:04:21   that problem with the multiple going [TS]

00:04:23   well I could have Harvey to there's any [TS]

00:04:26   of this stuff comes at the end which is [TS]

00:04:28   in my mind the worst part of that movie [TS]

00:04:29   is whether it was [TS]

00:04:30   nowhere for me to always try is trying [TS]

00:04:32   to lead into the next movie with my [TS]

00:04:34   biggest complaints are they like the [TS]

00:04:36   fairy scene and the sort of little [TS]

00:04:37   brother moralizing those two bits didn't [TS]

00:04:40   need to be in that movie a fairy stone i [TS]

00:04:43   think is terrible and that's actually [TS]

00:04:45   happening simultaneously with another [TS]

00:04:46   scene that is bad which is Batman gets [TS]

00:04:50   equipped morgan freeman equips Batman [TS]

00:04:54   with his his bat radar right his [TS]

00:04:56   ballerina already goes into a tall [TS]

00:04:58   building and he's trying to fight bad [TS]

00:05:00   guys in this tall building and it's one [TS]

00:05:02   of the most incompetently put together [TS]

00:05:03   action scenes I've ever seen in a major [TS]

00:05:05   movie you at no point do you really [TS]

00:05:07   understand what's going on [TS]

00:05:09   you completely lose track it sort of [TS]

00:05:12   transformers level of confusion and it's [TS]

00:05:15   a shame because again if somebody come [TS]

00:05:17   in and said no no this is too much [TS]

00:05:18   you've got a great movie here if we chop [TS]

00:05:21   off most of the last 30 minutes or 45 [TS]

00:05:23   minutes it would be a much better movie [TS]

00:05:25   than it is [TS]

00:05:26   yeah because it starts really strong and [TS]

00:05:28   it's focused and strong and dramatic i [TS]

00:05:29   think the worst decision was that they [TS]

00:05:31   tried to make me the big dramatic thing [TS]

00:05:35   that happens in the final act is bad [TS]

00:05:37   one of the things is not a problem is 10 [TS]

00:05:40   different things that happened the final [TS]

00:05:41   actress Batman rejecting the idea of [TS]

00:05:44   spying on the citizenry you know I'll do [TS]

00:05:47   it this once but you have to burn the [TS]

00:05:48   computers down when you're done already [TS]

00:05:50   know and his and his faithful helper [TS]

00:05:52   almost you know threatens to quit [TS]

00:05:53   because of this great decision like no [TS]

00:05:55   one cares about this this is not of [TS]

00:05:57   Batman's world [TS]

00:05:58   I don't care about Batman spies on his [TS]

00:06:00   to fight the bad guys it's just kind of [TS]

00:06:02   shoved in there where you least expect [TS]

00:06:04   it's like oh he's built this giant [TS]

00:06:05   computer system that what it does it [TS]

00:06:07   connect into cell phones or something [TS]

00:06:09   like that it was something [TS]

00:06:10   yes yes something ridiculous i have to [TS]

00:06:13   admit i only saw the dark night I saw it [TS]

00:06:15   at midnight when it first came out [TS]

00:06:17   because back like a couple years back I [TS]

00:06:19   was on this big dick or it's like all [TS]

00:06:20   the superhero movies you see it at [TS]

00:06:22   midnight you see it with a good crowd [TS]

00:06:23   it's just fun and I remember going into [TS]

00:06:27   it being really psyched because i like [TS]

00:06:29   Christian Bale and I like you know I'd [TS]

00:06:31   like Christopher Nolan I like good good [TS]

00:06:34   value vibes right and then yeah halfway [TS]

00:06:36   through the film it just completely [TS]

00:06:37   falls apart where you just you know I [TS]

00:06:39   was sitting there and I actually looked [TS]

00:06:41   at my watch at one point in time and I [TS]

00:06:43   have where are you going with this [TS]

00:06:45   christopher nolan why why is this [TS]

00:06:48   suddenly you know you start off with [TS]

00:06:49   strong characters and then just kind of [TS]

00:06:51   Peters out 20 i guess i guess they're [TS]

00:06:54   trapped in a warehouse that may explode [TS]

00:06:55   the gender but yeah a snake the Joker by [TS]

00:06:58   far the most important thing in this [TS]

00:07:00   movie by far the most successful thing [TS]

00:07:01   in the movie and m is it any coincidence [TS]

00:07:03   that the Joker kind of moves off stage [TS]

00:07:06   at that whole point where the movie [TS]

00:07:07   falls apart and I don't think I think [TS]

00:07:10   it's that did they just lost their way [TS]

00:07:12   and it's just that make it about the [TS]

00:07:13   Joker in Batman don't make it about [TS]

00:07:15   Morgan Freeman's inventions and the [TS]

00:07:18   computer computers spying on the people [TS]

00:07:21   of Gotham City and they this sort of [TS]

00:07:22   kind of ridiculous boat thing that was a [TS]

00:07:25   weird love triangle story which is like [TS]

00:07:28   it's like they started another movie in [TS]

00:07:30   the middle of this 10 yeah they did [TS]

00:07:32   there's two faces already and i remember [TS]

00:07:34   watching thinking wait a second I'm [TS]

00:07:35   gonna go for another three hours i'm not [TS]

00:07:37   doing their starting another movie I [TS]

00:07:39   don't care about that movie what [TS]

00:07:40   happened to the Joker movie this is the [TS]

00:07:42   movie they should've called Batman [TS]

00:07:43   Forever i did like the dark knight [TS]

00:07:45   probably better than the rest of you but [TS]

00:07:47   one thing that did bother me about it [TS]

00:07:49   and this was one of the things that [TS]

00:07:50   actually praised was the the the [TS]

00:07:54   location [TS]

00:07:56   I I actually preferred the first movie [TS]

00:07:59   just the first movie visually that you [TS]

00:08:03   know this because Gotham was this [TS]

00:08:05   manufactured place and that you know i [TS]

00:08:07   have these wonderful old straining to [TS]

00:08:10   these like that Batman Begins Batman [TS]

00:08:13   Begins yeah and-and-and dark knight was [TS]

00:08:16   it is said in Chicago obviously said in [TS]

00:08:19   chicago and and all these locations that [TS]

00:08:21   you know about and that X it sort of [TS]

00:08:25   took me out of the movie a little bit in [TS]

00:08:26   a strange way you know say oh I i know [TS]

00:08:29   that building and it where whereas the [TS]

00:08:31   first movie it was is it was you were [TS]

00:08:34   immersed in in this in this particular [TS]

00:08:37   world and so that was the one that was [TS]

00:08:39   the one that really troubled me about [TS]

00:08:41   the dark knight not so much the boat the [TS]

00:08:45   ferryboat thing but the location what [TS]

00:08:48   had kind of an ethereal quality to it [TS]

00:08:50   Batman Begins the whole universe like [TS]

00:08:51   you think about the end like the climax [TS]

00:08:53   of batman begins where it's God the [TS]

00:08:55   trains going to cry [TS]

00:08:56   actually the water tower but you like I [TS]

00:08:58   when I picture the scene and in my head [TS]

00:09:00   I see very like sepia foggy like really [TS]

00:09:03   really kind of cool in-depth stuff that [TS]

00:09:05   you'd see in a video gamer in your head [TS]

00:09:07   when you're reading a good book or in a [TS]

00:09:08   comic page and I feel like with the dark [TS]

00:09:13   knight they cut they went very gritty [TS]

00:09:15   and it turned very oh this is a [TS]

00:09:18   superhero movie but it's a real man [TS]

00:09:20   superhero movie you know if that makes [TS]

00:09:22   sense [TS]

00:09:23   yeah yeah I i should say i think all of [TS]

00:09:26   us could probably say some positive [TS]

00:09:27   things about about the dark knight and I [TS]

00:09:29   don't think we're saying it's [TS]

00:09:30   necessarily a bad movie upon out i think [TS]

00:09:33   yeah I would say the highs of the dark [TS]

00:09:35   knight are among the highest highs of [TS]

00:09:37   any superhero movies I've seen it had [TS]

00:09:40   some great peaks and that's what makes [TS]

00:09:42   it a kind of a crying shame and that's [TS]

00:09:44   what makes it a tragedy and it's [TS]

00:09:46   overrated because i think the general [TS]

00:09:47   public is dazzled by the highs and is [TS]

00:09:49   not as critical of the weaker parts they [TS]

00:09:52   may have been pummeled into submission [TS]

00:09:53   by the time we got two hours in two [TS]

00:09:55   really are they fell asleep [TS]

00:09:56   yeah especially when he was looking for [TS]

00:09:58   watching it said 2 a.m. [TS]

00:10:00   that's why you were looking at your [TS]

00:10:01   watch more like three huh yeah yeah [TS]

00:10:04   alright so we beatin up on Batman enough [TS]

00:10:06   there will be enough they'll be a third [TS]

00:10:08   how many villains I wonder what happened [TS]

00:10:09   that one [TS]

00:10:10   oh gosh 26 that's right excellent just a [TS]

00:10:13   rogue's gallery the whole rogue's [TS]

00:10:14   gallery killer croc the whole bit yeah [TS]

00:10:17   in terms of there's a another movie that [TS]

00:10:19   I kind of associate with the with the [TS]

00:10:21   batman returns and dark night and all [TS]

00:10:24   that and that spider-man three men three [TS]

00:10:25   yet which got I mean was more critically [TS]

00:10:28   reviled the narrative night for sure but [TS]

00:10:30   I would call that over it can't be you [TS]

00:10:32   want to know if everybody talks think [TS]

00:10:34   it's terrible but it's just it's that's [TS]

00:10:37   another film that suffers from the [TS]

00:10:39   multiple villainville and and random too [TS]

00:10:43   long for its own good randomly goes into [TS]

00:10:46   email musical sequence in the middlelike [TS]

00:10:48   it said because again i think there [TS]

00:10:50   probably was a good movie in there if [TS]

00:10:51   they had focused on a couple of things [TS]

00:10:53   that they have focused on Harry becoming [TS]

00:10:55   kind of the Hobgoblin or or I pic pick [TS]

00:10:59   one villain right pick venom i mean i'm [TS]

00:11:01   not a big fan of venom but or or the [TS]

00:11:03   Sandman or orally everybody [TS]

00:11:06   but it's just all mashed together there [TS]

00:11:08   and and in a way and the venom story [TS]

00:11:10   doesn't really work when it's kind of [TS]

00:11:11   retro red card into this weird a meteor [TS]

00:11:14   happens to hit Peters bike huh [TS]

00:11:16   ok surprise well it's just a shame [TS]

00:11:19   because spider-man 2 i considered for a [TS]

00:11:22   long time one of like my top new [TS]

00:11:24   superhero movies and then to kind of get [TS]

00:11:26   it all crashed down with spider-man 3 [TS]

00:11:28   was just depressing the same you didn't [TS]

00:11:31   have a category for superhero movies [TS]

00:11:33   that you like don't like it all because [TS]

00:11:34   you've got favorite underrated overrated [TS]

00:11:36   but Superman Superman spider-man just [TS]

00:11:39   never connected with me like the the [TS]

00:11:41   first [TS]

00:11:42   yeah the field all of them that just a [TS]

00:11:44   spider-man care about x 3 came along I [TS]

00:11:46   couldn't care less about spider-man but [TS]

00:11:47   the first movie for like the first half [TS]

00:11:49   hour when they were doing that origin [TS]

00:11:50   the first half-hour spider-like yes [TS]

00:11:53   exactly spider-man movie I want to [TS]

00:11:54   manage it just lost me I don't think [TS]

00:11:56   it's any fault of the movie here i don't [TS]

00:11:58   know maybe I'm just not a spider and guy [TS]

00:12:00   but the franchise and the movie never [TS]

00:12:03   really connected with me I recognize the [TS]

00:12:04   spider-man one or two or reasonably good [TS]

00:12:06   movies in spider-man 3 is not a good [TS]

00:12:07   movie but none of them like they just [TS]

00:12:09   don't do it for me I don't know why [TS]

00:12:11   especially since I was so into it and [TS]

00:12:13   excited for the first half an hour 40 [TS]

00:12:14   minutes of spider-man 1 [TS]

00:12:16   yeah I watch them again and see why that [TS]

00:12:18   is I think I think the first butter [TS]

00:12:20   man's got highs and lows and and I I [TS]

00:12:22   like it but in many ways i'm giving it I [TS]

00:12:24   I feel like I give it a little bit of a [TS]

00:12:26   critical pass because i like the source [TS]

00:12:28   material so much [TS]

00:12:29   the second 1i i actually liked a lot [TS]

00:12:30   better although the reason that I what I [TS]

00:12:33   keep telling people about spider-man 2 [TS]

00:12:35   is spider-man 2 is a movie about a guy [TS]

00:12:37   and it's about his problems in his life [TS]

00:12:40   it's not a superhero movie in many ways [TS]

00:12:42   it's a bit movie about a guy in his life [TS]

00:12:44   except it turns out the guy has [TS]

00:12:47   superpowers and it's kind of a superhero [TS]

00:12:49   at it because that's how that movie is [TS]

00:12:51   told it's it's really weird but I love [TS]

00:12:53   it I do think it's in my top five at [TS]

00:12:55   least superhero movement that that's [TS]

00:12:57   kind of a spider-man thing is it happen [TS]

00:12:59   it is more of it you know that whatever [TS]

00:13:01   happens about it's not about [TS]

00:13:02   supervillains in origins and stuff like [TS]

00:13:04   that it's more about the boys troubles [TS]

00:13:07   reputable workers more interested [TS]

00:13:08   interesting than spider-man whereas [TS]

00:13:10   Batman this way more interesting than [TS]

00:13:12   Bruce wing [TS]

00:13:13   yeah no one cares about Bruce Wayne and [TS]

00:13:15   neither Clark kent/superman interesting [TS]

00:13:17   right then what do you have for us in [TS]

00:13:18   the in the negative category [TS]

00:13:20   you have something well overrated [TS]

00:13:22   category yes yeah Superman to would be [TS]

00:13:25   my pick [TS]

00:13:26   that would be the 1980s Superman to in [TS]

00:13:30   which Christopher Reeve Superman [TS]

00:13:34   experiences is dark knight or yes dark [TS]

00:13:37   night of the soul [TS]

00:13:38   i I didn't intend for that but that's [TS]

00:13:41   just sort of slipped out you know and i [TS]

00:13:44   think my and again this is I mean that [TS]

00:13:47   this was kind of hailed as you know [TS]

00:13:50   you're the first movie was like this [TS]

00:13:53   breakthrough film and you know [TS]

00:13:55   yeah you'll believe a man can fly and i [TS]

00:13:57   remember seeing that when i was a kid [TS]

00:14:00   and coming home from the from the from [TS]

00:14:03   the movie with my mom and seeing a guy [TS]

00:14:05   on a hang glider that I mean just right [TS]

00:14:07   after the film and going oh my god that [TS]

00:14:10   Superman and this guy and and you know [TS]

00:14:13   in seeing Superman to the first time you [TS]

00:14:16   know i was i was nine or ten years old [TS]

00:14:18   and and thinking wow this is this is [TS]

00:14:21   pretty deep problem i think maybe is [TS]

00:14:23   that maybe just doesn't hold up very [TS]

00:14:25   well and and it may not hold up very [TS]

00:14:27   well for a variety of reasons you know [TS]

00:14:30   it's you know it 1980 is really not the [TS]

00:14:33   eighties yet it's still the seventies [TS]

00:14:37   so you still have that sort of seventies [TS]

00:14:39   campina see christopher reeve was not a [TS]

00:14:42   great Superman i think in retrospect and [TS]

00:14:46   although the conflict with you know [TS]

00:14:51   General Zod and and you know Terence [TS]

00:14:53   Stamp is great all that you know the [TS]

00:14:57   dark night of the soul stuff looking [TS]

00:15:00   back at it now if you to watch it now [TS]

00:15:01   it's kind of silly it's kind of you know [TS]

00:15:06   this is the you know the source end of [TS]

00:15:08   the seventies me decade stuff in it and [TS]

00:15:10   it really just it's it's a bit [TS]

00:15:12   embarrassing in places and so as cool as [TS]

00:15:16   it was to see at the time for me it just [TS]

00:15:19   in retrospect it just doesn't really [TS]

00:15:22   hold up as well that's a movie that got [TS]

00:15:24   kind of messed up by the studio to write [TS]

00:15:26   they had the richard donner directed [TS]

00:15:28   some of that they fired and replaced [TS]

00:15:29   with the guy who did a hard day's night [TS]

00:15:31   it [TS]

00:15:32   strange that's right that's right well [TS]

00:15:35   i'm curious to hear what the others have [TS]

00:15:37   to think about to say about this because [TS]

00:15:38   I mean Superman to I always sort of [TS]

00:15:41   heresy ranks and yeah i was still the [TS]

00:15:44   man dog in the top five of you know of [TS]

00:15:46   these all-time great super Superman or [TS]

00:15:48   superhero films but i don't know i i've [TS]

00:15:52   watched it again probably a year ago and [TS]

00:15:54   and and that was I was kind of left with [TS]

00:15:57   that sort of bad impression I mean [TS]

00:15:58   everybody has a lot of good stuff going [TS]

00:16:00   for it that's the thing i mean you know [TS]

00:16:03   gene hackman at his you know [TS]

00:16:05   over-the-top finest and net baby's great [TS]

00:16:10   in it and you know there's there's [TS]

00:16:12   there's a lot to lot to be said for it [TS]

00:16:14   but i don't know i think i think it [TS]

00:16:17   suffers from the era in which it was [TS]

00:16:19   made a kind of Moby Superman at the [TS]

00:16:20   fortress of solitude and then the sort [TS]

00:16:22   of mopey Clark gives up his superpowers [TS]

00:16:25   to be with Louis which I never really [TS]

00:16:27   understood that right yeah yeah yeah it [TS]

00:16:30   was kind of like a shambling monster but [TS]

00:16:33   it's another example of Superman movie [TS]

00:16:35   that our superhero movie they got away [TS]

00:16:36   from itself by adding too much stuff [TS]

00:16:38   because think of all the things we [TS]

00:16:39   describe that happened in this movie [TS]

00:16:40   this these guys from what is that the [TS]

00:16:42   negative zone or whatever it's called [TS]

00:16:44   yeah Phantom Zone I mm fans on there you [TS]

00:16:46   go I'm and so they're the they're that [TS]

00:16:49   thread but then there's the you know I [TS]

00:16:50   want to be with Louis to get my powers [TS]

00:16:52   thread and like and as lex luthor [TS]

00:16:54   running around it was should be the big [TS]

00:16:56   villain because the secondary villain [TS]

00:16:57   and then he's got a sidekick guy and [TS]

00:16:59   it's a lot of stuff and like 70 movies [TS]

00:17:01   is kind of like slow paced and spread [TS]

00:17:04   out and the individual scenes are our [TS]

00:17:07   hookey and it's it's just kind of a big [TS]

00:17:08   shambling mess i don't have that I [TS]

00:17:11   didn't know was so highly regarded i [TS]

00:17:13   would not have put it very high up in [TS]

00:17:15   and my rankings of of superhero movies [TS]

00:17:18   maybe people just like the Phantom Zone [TS]

00:17:20   guys I don't know well I think there's a [TS]

00:17:21   lot of nostalgia for it and then it's [TS]

00:17:23   very quotable you know kneel before Zod [TS]

00:17:25   and all that but yeah I mean we'll [TS]

00:17:28   remember Terence Stamp i think yeah yeah [TS]

00:17:30   yeah that's yeah I remember the outfits [TS]

00:17:33   the black jumpsuits [TS]

00:17:34   post and memory more than any other [TS]

00:17:37   scene and although it's not the movie or [TS]

00:17:39   he gets angry and flicks a peanut at a [TS]

00:17:41   bottle or window and breaks it wasn't [TS]

00:17:44   three [TS]

00:17:45   I don't know I don't remember i'm [TS]

00:17:48   betting it was worth it he was like [TS]

00:17:49   turning evil and drinking beer and not [TS]

00:17:51   shaving oh that is for that too [TS]

00:17:54   that's one of the the movie so bad that [TS]

00:17:56   people haven't even seen them [TS]

00:17:58   yeah I tried to erase them from our [TS]

00:17:59   memories Superman for see if we if we [TS]

00:18:02   went to the lower streak was worst yeah [TS]

00:18:04   we're superhero movies flat out of all [TS]

00:18:06   time that Superman for the quest for [TS]

00:18:07   peace but I think you guys might be in [TS]

00:18:10   the list but we shouldn't talk about [TS]

00:18:12   that either no no no no don't why beat [TS]

00:18:16   YB down the already down movies I really [TS]

00:18:21   what's the point the horses there five [TS]

00:18:23   was there Superman five before they [TS]

00:18:25   rebooted no no Superman for was the last [TS]

00:18:28   one and then they and then they came out [TS]

00:18:30   with Superman Returns which was actually [TS]

00:18:32   a sequel to Super Man 2 which was very [TS]

00:18:35   strange and I don't think I wanted to [TS]

00:18:37   not because we wanted to forget about [TS]

00:18:38   Richard Pryor and we've got to forget [TS]

00:18:40   about the horrible scene of the widest [TS]

00:18:43   variety younger when Superman to and [TS]

00:18:45   returns magic because they recast the [TS]

00:18:48   part with the Sun he spent some time in [TS]

00:18:50   a red Sun right I i don't i don't know i [TS]

00:18:54   don't think i don't think superman [TS]

00:18:55   returns was necessarily a bad movie I [TS]

00:18:56   just thought it was kind of mediocre it [TS]

00:18:58   wasn't interesting i think that was the [TS]

00:19:00   problem is girls just kind of there i [TS]

00:19:02   think i've had some good [TS]

00:19:04   Superman action scenes the one where [TS]

00:19:05   he's saving the plane crashing it as a [TS]

00:19:08   standalone Superman action scene that's [TS]

00:19:10   probably the most interested I've been [TS]

00:19:12   in a super an action scene in any of the [TS]

00:19:14   movies just because I thought it was a [TS]

00:19:17   interesting thing for him to do but the [TS]

00:19:19   movie surrounding it was yeah i like the [TS]

00:19:21   idea that he has a kid I thought that [TS]

00:19:23   was kind of a bold choice to like [TS]

00:19:25   totally break away from my comic book [TS]

00:19:26   continuity and just say what if Louis [TS]

00:19:30   had a kid and it was time around the [TS]

00:19:33   same reason there's not any more [TS]

00:19:34   Superman Returns movies they did all [TS]

00:19:37   that and people were like yeah don't [TS]

00:19:39   know about that and so we're just taking [TS]

00:19:40   our regard be getting we're getting a [TS]

00:19:42   reboot of the reboot doing as I'm saying [TS]

00:19:44   like I have thought they were going to [TS]

00:19:46   reboot into a series of Superman [TS]

00:19:47   resided once and another reason name is [TS]

00:19:51   the kind of didn't reboot though they [TS]

00:19:53   just kind of soft restarts from this [TS]

00:19:55   from person to person who did this [TS]

00:19:57   he didn't he did Superman Returns and [TS]

00:19:59   now it's like to be left the x-men and [TS]

00:20:01   and when you have to Superman because it [TS]

00:20:03   seemed like going for the brass ring [TS]

00:20:04   like finally I get to do Superman it's [TS]

00:20:06   like just stuck with x-men you doing one [TS]

00:20:07   better there [TS]

00:20:08   I don't know much better as a strong [TS]

00:20:10   word for the x-men x-men 2 is pretty [TS]

00:20:12   great [TS]

00:20:13   yes x-men three on the other hand had [TS]

00:20:18   problems not be spoken up the second one [TS]

00:20:20   has nuanced and again it's more about [TS]

00:20:22   the characters than it is about the [TS]

00:20:23   overarching oh god bad things are [TS]

00:20:26   happening if that better than the first [TS]

00:20:27   one which was it's funny we talk about [TS]

00:20:30   movies where there was the first one [TS]

00:20:31   that was good and they sort of screwed [TS]

00:20:32   up with a second one [TS]

00:20:33   x-men I think they kind of screwed up [TS]

00:20:35   the first one got it right with the [TS]

00:20:37   second one person was kind of dorky but [TS]

00:20:39   the first one started strong the first [TS]

00:20:41   one was the one that starts with I the [TS]

00:20:43   magneto Holocaust scene right right that [TS]

00:20:46   was that's the that's the way you open [TS]

00:20:48   an x-men franchise the movies and the [TS]

00:20:50   rest of the week kind of was dorky and [TS]

00:20:52   hokey and so a formula and they didn't [TS]

00:20:55   live up to that first scene so you can [TS]

00:20:57   stack that first seen on two x-men 2 and [TS]

00:21:00   tell more about Magneto's backstory [TS]

00:21:02   there i don't know you can make a better [TS]

00:21:03   movie out of it by combining parts of [TS]

00:21:05   both of them Frankenstein style nice the [TS]

00:21:07   first movies are hard to do for these [TS]

00:21:09   superhero movies because you gotta cram [TS]

00:21:11   all the origin stuff in and you've got [TS]

00:21:13   you've got to appeal to the fans and you [TS]

00:21:15   have to throw and all that stuff let me [TS]

00:21:17   let me submit this then and I'd like to [TS]

00:21:18   hear what you guys say why do with why [TS]

00:21:20   does every movie every superhero movie [TS]

00:21:22   have to start with an origin story it [TS]

00:21:24   kills it kills me apparently they're [TS]

00:21:25   going to retail the spider-man origin [TS]

00:21:27   story in the new in this but erm andrew [TS]

00:21:29   garfield yeah it's always be by don't [TS]

00:21:32   remember i must every superhero movie I [TS]

00:21:34   mean you know what it's just like TV [TS]

00:21:36   pilots right [TS]

00:21:37   the origin is not always the most [TS]

00:21:38   interesting thing in some ways the [TS]

00:21:40   origin is the least interesting thing [TS]

00:21:42   why would you spend your entire first [TS]

00:21:45   movie or half of it even telling this [TS]

00:21:47   origin story instead of getting to the [TS]

00:21:50   good stuff i mean if you've got a good [TS]

00:21:51   origin maybe it's different but a lot of [TS]

00:21:53   these origin stories are boring and [TS]

00:21:54   we've seen him before I mean is the [TS]

00:21:56   superman reboot going to give us a baby [TS]

00:21:58   and Krypton and all of that can [TS]

00:21:59   I don't want to see it unless it's a [TS]

00:22:01   five minute montage [TS]

00:22:02   well I mean I john august just actually [TS]

00:22:05   hadn't had an article up on his website [TS]

00:22:08   about this about how in terms of [TS]

00:22:10   starting with origin story in regards to [TS]

00:22:13   TV shows where it's just most producers [TS]

00:22:16   don't want to see these premises pilots [TS]

00:22:19   these origin stories because it's hard [TS]

00:22:21   to for the audience to connect and yet [TS]

00:22:23   the writer is like but no everybody [TS]

00:22:25   needs to know the back story because if [TS]

00:22:27   you don't know the backstory how are you [TS]

00:22:29   gonna know in general where we're coming [TS]

00:22:31   from and how everything connects [TS]

00:22:33   together it's I mean you could you could [TS]

00:22:35   make a point for that in almost every [TS]

00:22:36   form of literature and and visual and it [TS]

00:22:39   is any comic book movie if you were [TS]

00:22:41   going into the movie anymore major [TS]

00:22:43   problem properties going so how does he [TS]

00:22:45   get those spider powers [TS]

00:22:47   no you know i mean all use Iron Man as [TS]

00:22:51   an example of an origin story that [TS]

00:22:53   didn't feel like an origin story to the [TS]

00:22:55   point like I knew I knew very little [TS]

00:22:57   about iron man going in other than you [TS]

00:22:59   know it was a comic at one point and [TS]

00:23:01   friends of mine liked it and it was [TS]

00:23:04   played very much [TS]

00:23:05   oh this isn't going to be some big [TS]

00:23:06   terrible trauma they just kind of went [TS]

00:23:08   forward where oh where being dropped out [TS]

00:23:11   into the middle of Tony Stark's life and [TS]

00:23:13   then from there we kind of split off and [TS]

00:23:15   go I guess this terrible thing happens [TS]

00:23:17   but if you're coming in like cold as a [TS]

00:23:19   as a new viewer who knows nothing about [TS]

00:23:21   iron man you don't know that [TS]

00:23:23   oh this is the you know the catalyst [TS]

00:23:25   getting kid nobody knows [TS]

00:23:26   Iron Man's origin I think that's I think [TS]

00:23:28   that's the difference right [TS]

00:23:30   nobody knows about iron man so you tell [TS]

00:23:32   that story but if it's one of these like [TS]

00:23:34   spider-man they're going to retail an [TS]

00:23:35   origin story that was told like less [TS]

00:23:37   than 10 years before in a movie that [TS]

00:23:40   everybody saw and i don't i don't really [TS]

00:23:42   see the point other there are good [TS]

00:23:44   origin story movies and in fact there's [TS]

00:23:46   one movie that i know i think is on pins [TS]

00:23:48   in my list of one of our favorite [TS]

00:23:50   superhero movies that is actually all [TS]

00:23:53   origin story but you don't know it [TS]

00:23:55   because it's not have an existing [TS]

00:23:56   character and i love that movie and [TS]

00:23:58   we'll get to in a minute but you know [TS]

00:24:00   that they're all these other movies [TS]

00:24:02   where it's just that's it we gotta show [TS]

00:24:03   everybody getting together and it's just [TS]

00:24:05   I mean john august point which I haven't [TS]

00:24:07   read that article but you know if I was [TS]

00:24:09   a producer working on a TV show my pilot [TS]

00:24:12   episode would not be the origin [TS]

00:24:13   about how everybody met my pilot episode [TS]

00:24:15   the one that sells your show would be [TS]

00:24:17   this is what the show will be like every [TS]

00:24:20   week because that's what people want to [TS]

00:24:21   see is it you don't meet once but then [TS]

00:24:24   what happens for the rest of your life [TS]

00:24:26   that's not the interesting part [TS]

00:24:27   yeah yeah I may be in the minority but [TS]

00:24:30   as i said before i find the origin [TS]

00:24:31   stories the most interesting part of [TS]

00:24:34   most superhero stories like what my [TS]

00:24:36   ideal first superhero movie story a [TS]

00:24:39   movie plot is the the superhero does not [TS]

00:24:43   appear into essentially the end of the [TS]

00:24:45   movie and why you get to see is someone [TS]

00:24:47   perhaps doing the same things the [TS]

00:24:48   superhero would do but not sort of [TS]

00:24:50   becoming Batman till the end of the [TS]

00:24:52   movie not becoming spider-man until the [TS]

00:24:54   end of the movie Iron Man is kind of [TS]

00:24:55   like that and the movie that we're all [TS]

00:24:57   gonna pick us our favorite apparently [TS]

00:24:58   not much like very much like that [TS]

00:25:00   because i find that the most interesting [TS]

00:25:02   part is that it's the character is the [TS]

00:25:05   main characters struggled to figure out [TS]

00:25:06   uh you know what this what this thing is [TS]

00:25:09   and you know what [TS]

00:25:11   what I'm going to be or what I'm going [TS]

00:25:12   to do with myself as any kind of story [TS]

00:25:13   you don't if you start the movie with [TS]

00:25:15   Batman is Batman then you have to have [TS]

00:25:17   like a second level things like Batman [TS]

00:25:19   knows he's Batman fine now he has to [TS]

00:25:21   face a challenge that the challenges [TS]

00:25:23   were strangers challenged and reacts [TS]

00:25:25   that challenged by becoming Batman Dark [TS]

00:25:28   Knight try to do that twice like the [TS]

00:25:29   right man begins right and then dark [TS]

00:25:31   knight like no now you're going to [TS]

00:25:32   become the dark nights which is like [TS]

00:25:33   level 2 of Batman and I love Batman [TS]

00:25:35   Begins which is an origin so it's what [TS]

00:25:37   you can ok i'll say also this you can [TS]

00:25:40   retail an origin and it can be good but [TS]

00:25:42   what I'm saying is I don't understand [TS]

00:25:44   why everybody's grandmother he needs to [TS]

00:25:47   be an origin story for the first one [TS]

00:25:48   because some of them are it's good that [TS]

00:25:51   it's the easiest to tell because if you [TS]

00:25:53   start the movie a spider man it's like I [TS]

00:25:54   got something for spider-man to do so I [TS]

00:25:56   gotta punch spider-man in peril [TS]

00:25:58   I've got to make it so you believe he's [TS]

00:25:59   going to diabetes and actually dive got [TS]

00:26:01   to make it look like he struggled why [TS]

00:26:02   should we struggle you know spider [TS]

00:26:04   superheroes a kind of Pollyanna whether [TS]

00:26:06   you know why he dives I'm the main [TS]

00:26:08   character I'm a superhero nothing's [TS]

00:26:10   gonna happen to me [TS]

00:26:11   no but not told right i mean those [TS]

00:26:12   Stanley marvel superheroes I mean their [TS]

00:26:15   whole story is that they're miserable [TS]

00:26:16   when Peter Peter Parker story doesn't [TS]

00:26:18   doesn't start and end with him getting [TS]

00:26:20   the getting the spider bite I mean he [TS]

00:26:22   you could start them off and for all I [TS]

00:26:24   know the origin in the in the reboot is [TS]

00:26:26   going to be a five-minute [TS]

00:26:27   you know watch mens style montage and [TS]

00:26:29   that's fine because you know meeting [TS]

00:26:31   this kid in high school who's totally [TS]

00:26:33   messed on messed up and picked on and [TS]

00:26:35   you think you're seeing an origin story [TS]

00:26:36   and it turns out that he actually is a [TS]

00:26:38   superhero but he can't let any let on [TS]

00:26:40   and his only releases getting into that [TS]

00:26:42   costume [TS]

00:26:43   I mean there's lots of stories to tell [TS]

00:26:44   about that guy that would be pretty cool [TS]

00:26:47   and kickass was sort of like that but I [TS]

00:26:51   want to make a couple points here and i [TS]

00:26:53   think the the second Hulk movie you know [TS]

00:26:56   that was the that was the correction to [TS]

00:26:58   the Angli that Norton yeah they had [TS]

00:27:00   norton whole movie that kind of did the [TS]

00:27:02   origin thing right because they did the [TS]

00:27:04   the origins in in the credits and and [TS]

00:27:08   that may be the way to get at it but i [TS]

00:27:10   but I think with some of these other [TS]

00:27:11   films is sort of you know sort of [TS]

00:27:13   conventional origin stories I I could [TS]

00:27:16   kind of liken it to some of what you [TS]

00:27:19   have to do in newspaper work or [TS]

00:27:22   journalism which is you cannot assume [TS]

00:27:24   that your audience is merely you know [TS]

00:27:27   your your fans and and that there's a [TS]

00:27:29   lot of there's a lot of dumbing down [TS]

00:27:31   that has to go on when you have to you [TS]

00:27:34   have to restate things that may be [TS]

00:27:36   obvious to you that maybe obvious to [TS]

00:27:38   people who are at least somewhat [TS]

00:27:40   familiar with the subject matter but but [TS]

00:27:43   at the same time you have to then think [TS]

00:27:45   about the people who may not know those [TS]

00:27:47   things and then you have to lay that out [TS]

00:27:50   for them in a way that you might you [TS]

00:27:53   mate you may find frustrating as [TS]

00:27:55   somebody who's a fan of the of the book [TS]

00:27:57   or the other comic book or whatnot but [TS]

00:27:59   you have to do it anyway and I suspect [TS]

00:28:02   that's a lot of it and it it makes for [TS]

00:28:06   some awkwardness especially for those of [TS]

00:28:08   us who mean iron man is a very good [TS]

00:28:11   example as you said because i think that [TS]

00:28:15   was done well precisely because you know [TS]

00:28:18   iron man who was by the way my favorite [TS]

00:28:20   Marvel hero of all time and I and I've [TS]

00:28:23   had prayed four years for that that [TS]

00:28:25   movie to come out and I was I was pretty [TS]

00:28:27   much satisfied with the result but iron [TS]

00:28:29   man was a was a vietnam-era superhero [TS]

00:28:33   and and the way that they were able to [TS]

00:28:36   change up that origin [TS]

00:28:38   and to to make it relevant to now was [TS]

00:28:42   really great and and there's a lot of [TS]

00:28:44   you know stuff in there sort of hidden [TS]

00:28:49   stuff in there for real fans of the of [TS]

00:28:52   the series you know the whole that the [TS]

00:28:53   the whole ten rings thing which is a [TS]

00:28:56   reference to mandarin and you know [TS]

00:28:58   there's there's a lot of good stuff in [TS]

00:29:00   that that in that first movie and it was [TS]

00:29:01   done very very well and so and and I and [TS]

00:29:06   I think again that the Hulk movie they [TS]

00:29:07   had ignored hope Hulk movie was done [TS]

00:29:10   pretty well to at least the origin [TS]

00:29:12   aspect of it some of the some of the [TS]

00:29:13   rest of it was so so but yeah I mean [TS]

00:29:16   yeah I think Yuki I think these these [TS]

00:29:18   movie makers are our kind of they have a [TS]

00:29:21   quandary because they have to say on the [TS]

00:29:22   one hand we need to appeal to the fans [TS]

00:29:24   in on the other hand we need to appeal [TS]

00:29:28   you know we need to get new butts in the [TS]

00:29:30   seats yeah I I'm I accessibility is a [TS]

00:29:33   really good reason to do it I just I [TS]

00:29:35   guess what I'm saying is if within 10 [TS]

00:29:37   years we have to and I'm saying this is [TS]

00:29:39   actually what they're doing with the [TS]

00:29:40   reboot i'm not sure but if we're doing [TS]

00:29:42   two movies where half of the time [TS]

00:29:44   running time is watching Peter Parker [TS]

00:29:47   get bitten by a spider and him letting [TS]

00:29:49   up burglar go past him and watching [TS]

00:29:51   Uncle Ben dispense wisdom and then get [TS]

00:29:53   shot and die and Peter be upset it's [TS]

00:29:55   like wow do you really want to do a [TS]

00:29:57   remake ten you know ten years later of a [TS]

00:30:00   movie everybody you know lots of people [TS]

00:30:02   have seen you got to tell that story and [TS]

00:30:04   not more compressed way the superman [TS]

00:30:05   reboot that's my fear is we're going to [TS]

00:30:07   get the same story that they told him [TS]

00:30:08   that smallville TV show and that they [TS]

00:30:10   told in the superman movie with [TS]

00:30:12   Christopher Reeve and I'm not sure that [TS]

00:30:14   story needs to be told again now take my [TS]

00:30:16   telling in a different way and that's [TS]

00:30:19   different but and you're totally right [TS]

00:30:20   that you can assume the audience knows [TS]

00:30:22   the story i just it you know I it kills [TS]

00:30:25   me how many movies of these characters [TS]

00:30:27   are they going to make and if all of [TS]

00:30:28   them are just retelling the origin it [TS]

00:30:30   just seems kind of crushing to me know [TS]

00:30:33   let me ask it well let me ask you this [TS]

00:30:34   jason i mean think about think of it [TS]

00:30:36   this way [TS]

00:30:37   well what would you mean how would you [TS]

00:30:40   introduce some of these characters to [TS]

00:30:42   your children we you and I both have [TS]

00:30:44   young kids right how I mean it's kind of [TS]

00:30:48   you know it's interesting to me how Mike [TS]

00:30:51   mice [TS]

00:30:51   on whose now eight-and-a-half you know [TS]

00:30:53   it is is being introduced to some of [TS]

00:30:56   these characters and I remember he he [TS]

00:30:58   was actually a big fan of the spider-man [TS]

00:31:00   movies when he was like three but but [TS]

00:31:02   some of these characters you know it's [TS]

00:31:04   it's it's kind of interesting and [TS]

00:31:06   wonderful to watch you know me you know [TS]

00:31:09   my son you'll see these these characters [TS]

00:31:13   that I kind of grew up with through the [TS]

00:31:14   comics and things like that and so I [TS]

00:31:16   mean I'd I you know I think about in [TS]

00:31:18   terms of see now you know I've got a [TS]

00:31:21   daughter who's going to be three and up [TS]

00:31:23   in a few months and and and introducing [TS]

00:31:26   her to to some of these characters that [TS]

00:31:28   my son would have seen you know five or [TS]

00:31:31   six years ago and and things like that [TS]

00:31:33   and so I think I think it's possible to [TS]

00:31:37   to reintroduce these origins to new [TS]

00:31:40   generations of audiences in a way that's [TS]

00:31:43   sort of interesting it might be familiar [TS]

00:31:45   to us because we're old [TS]

00:31:46   butBut to our kids and maybe something [TS]

00:31:49   else about what do you think that kid a [TS]

00:31:50   kid on a kid discovering a comic comic [TS]

00:31:53   book superhero on TV or or at the [TS]

00:31:56   spinner rack when we were kids you don't [TS]

00:31:58   start with the origin you start in the [TS]

00:31:59   middle of the action and my kid is not [TS]

00:32:01   my son loves batman the brave and the [TS]

00:32:03   bold which is a pretty good animated [TS]

00:32:05   it's actually if you've ever seen it [TS]

00:32:07   it's a good show it's it's a it's funny [TS]

00:32:09   if there's some stuff in it for the [TS]

00:32:10   grown-ups to laugh at [TS]

00:32:12   Batman has a very dry sense of humor [TS]

00:32:15   it's actually a lot of fun you know if I [TS]

00:32:17   asked my son how Batman became Batman he [TS]

00:32:20   would have no idea if I asked him about [TS]

00:32:22   spider-man [TS]

00:32:23   I think I've exposed them to the whole [TS]

00:32:24   with great power comes great [TS]

00:32:26   responsibility thing now but originally [TS]

00:32:28   it would have just been no spider-man [TS]

00:32:30   he's cool he's got the red suit swings [TS]

00:32:31   around i think they know the core of the [TS]

00:32:33   character and not how they got there so [TS]

00:32:36   i guess i would argue you don't really [TS]

00:32:38   need it because as a as a as a kid you [TS]

00:32:40   learn about the hero and then later you [TS]

00:32:42   get you hear the story of how they came [TS]

00:32:43   to be i'm not sure that is the most me [TS]

00:32:45   for some heroes let's face it probably [TS]

00:32:47   is to John's point the most interesting [TS]

00:32:48   thing about them and then once they've [TS]

00:32:50   got their powers too boring i mean [TS]

00:32:51   Superman you could argue that's true [TS]

00:32:53   that it you know they made a whole TV [TS]

00:32:55   series about what happens before he puts [TS]

00:32:57   on the costume because once you put on [TS]

00:32:59   the costume it's like death so i don't [TS]

00:33:02   gotta take what you have to take away [TS]

00:33:03   his powers for [TS]

00:33:04   drama soon as he is Superman right [TS]

00:33:06   Superman Superman as one of the younger [TS]

00:33:09   members on this podcast is just what I [TS]

00:33:12   no no me me young whatever we talking [TS]

00:33:15   about [TS]

00:33:15   I'm I really really hate the excuse of [TS]

00:33:19   oh well we want to introduce it to a [TS]

00:33:22   younger generation let's just remake it [TS]

00:33:24   and instead of let's instead get our [TS]

00:33:28   kids into the older things that we got [TS]

00:33:30   into at the first place like I know some [TS]

00:33:33   people are like oh well the kids are so [TS]

00:33:35   used to modern-day special-effects [TS]

00:33:37   they're not gonna want to see the [TS]

00:33:38   original Superman or something like that [TS]

00:33:39   we need to reboot it every 10 years [TS]

00:33:41   because God knows there are the spider [TS]

00:33:43   man that came out in what 2019 you like [TS]

00:33:47   the 2,000 wire 2001 yeah 2002's all [TS]

00:33:52   those those effects are so outdated [TS]

00:33:54   that's why we're going to remake it and [TS]

00:33:55   we really want to you know skew the sky [TS]

00:33:58   I really just hate that argument in [TS]

00:34:00   general and that can be made for outside [TS]

00:34:02   the superhero genre to where it's it's [TS]

00:34:05   it's a lazy man's excuse so here let's [TS]

00:34:08   move on to the movies that we think have [TS]

00:34:10   been underrated and are especially [TS]

00:34:12   deserving of of of praise that what they [TS]

00:34:15   may not have gotten I mean the consensus [TS]

00:34:17   i think is that the dark knight which [TS]

00:34:19   we've already taken our bats too huh not [TS]

00:34:21   upon that I intended [TS]

00:34:23   we have slammed the dark knight and and [TS]

00:34:25   you know spider-man 2 is actually widely [TS]

00:34:27   considered to be one of the one of the [TS]

00:34:29   best superhero movies i'm interested in [TS]

00:34:31   what you guys want to single out as as [TS]

00:34:34   movies that one should should revisit [TS]

00:34:36   that are better than maybe are widely [TS]

00:34:39   are widely held been would you like to [TS]

00:34:41   go first on this one [TS]

00:34:42   sure I really loved darkman which was I [TS]

00:34:49   mean talking about Sam Raimi Oh Sam [TS]

00:34:51   Raimi you know dark man came out 1990 I [TS]

00:34:56   think start Larry Drake from LA Law and [TS]

00:35:00   some no-name guy Liam Neeson I don't [TS]

00:35:03   know what he went on to do but it was a [TS]

00:35:06   terrific film it was supposed to be the [TS]

00:35:09   shadow and Ramey couldn't get the right [TS]

00:35:12   i think it's kind of [TS]

00:35:16   I i think it's sort of a cult favorite [TS]

00:35:18   and and probably folks here would [TS]

00:35:21   probably respected a lot i but i don't [TS]

00:35:24   think it's really well appreciated i [TS]

00:35:26   think it came in between you know that [TS]

00:35:31   you know there was that that's the spate [TS]

00:35:32   of you know super Superman films in the [TS]

00:35:36   seventies and early eighties and then [TS]

00:35:37   you know this is great revival of [TS]

00:35:40   superhero movies in the in the latter [TS]

00:35:42   part of the 1990s and and throughout the [TS]

00:35:44   2000s but they kind of came at an [TS]

00:35:48   interesting time well I guess now i [TS]

00:35:50   guess in the nineteen nineties you had [TS]

00:35:51   your well too bad the bad i hadn't had [TS]

00:35:53   the Batman you had the tip you know the [TS]

00:35:56   problem with the tim burton Batman [TS]

00:35:58   things a is it is those tim burton's [TS]

00:36:01   batman movies are so overshadowed by the [TS]

00:36:03   sequels that you I almost mean with the [TS]

00:36:07   exception of the elfin soundtracks I've [TS]

00:36:09   kind of put them out of my brain to the [TS]

00:36:11   original isn't good it's a good evidence [TS]

00:36:12   I great is it is i mean in but you know [TS]

00:36:15   whatever happened to Michael Keaton too [TS]

00:36:17   by the way no I know he's sucking still [TS]

00:36:19   around but no III dark I think darkman [TS]

00:36:23   it came in that in that period you know [TS]

00:36:25   a way that was probably overshadowed by [TS]

00:36:27   by the Batman the burden Batman films as [TS]

00:36:30   well and and but it was it was it's [TS]

00:36:33   really good and you know it it has that [TS]

00:36:38   great Larry Drake villain I mean you [TS]

00:36:41   know I think I think he was probably one [TS]

00:36:43   of the better-known people in that movie [TS]

00:36:45   and you had this this great story with [TS]

00:36:50   you know this this do good scientists [TS]

00:36:53   who should face is burned off and that [TS]

00:36:56   mean it's got this darkness to it and [TS]

00:36:58   but it's you know it's got this great [TS]

00:36:59   heroism to is got this this great humor [TS]

00:37:02   to it is that so that's the reason I [TS]

00:37:04   believe that Sam Raimi got the job to [TS]

00:37:06   direct Spiderman was that he had not [TS]

00:37:09   only have this great cult following but [TS]

00:37:11   he had a superhero movie and it was good [TS]

00:37:14   it was really good but yeah I mean yeah [TS]

00:37:17   I I am i I've seen that probably why I [TS]

00:37:22   saw it when it came out in theatres and [TS]

00:37:23   the nice i watched it again a couple [TS]

00:37:25   years ago [TS]

00:37:26   and i think i think i ran across the end [TS]

00:37:28   of it on on cable [TS]

00:37:31   maybe within the past few months and you [TS]

00:37:34   know the end there were Bruce Campbell [TS]

00:37:36   makes his his cameo appearance as he's [TS]

00:37:39   want to do and I any of these ray movies [TS]

00:37:41   but yea dark man is is it is a great [TS]

00:37:46   little superhero film that you know it's [TS]

00:37:50   got all these people who went on to do [TS]

00:37:51   great things in it you know and you know [TS]

00:37:54   Frances McDormand to love interest you [TS]

00:37:57   know is that was some years before fargo [TS]

00:38:00   and when no one knew who she was and now [TS]

00:38:04   it's it's it's really really good and [TS]

00:38:05   that's kind of one of those things that [TS]

00:38:07   I'm sort of maybe when my son is a [TS]

00:38:10   little older i'm looking forward to just [TS]

00:38:13   showing to him because I i think that's [TS]

00:38:15   one of those one of those really [TS]

00:38:17   well-rounded superhero movies that [TS]

00:38:21   doesn't involve superpowers but it's got [TS]

00:38:23   great action and great drama and and and [TS]

00:38:27   bring me a brilliant riding and you know [TS]

00:38:29   memorable lines like you know bring [TS]

00:38:31   mediations fingers things like this is [TS]

00:38:35   you are a sucker for those lines aren't [TS]

00:38:37   you [TS]

00:38:37   I know I know ya get the bone sobbing [TS]

00:38:40   the asian me rehne do you have a movie [TS]

00:38:43   that deserves a little a little extra [TS]

00:38:45   love well I would say the rocketeer [TS]

00:38:47   except i feel like that's not underrated [TS]

00:38:50   in the geek following to which I'm [TS]

00:38:52   talking to I I'd say it's publicly like [TS]

00:38:55   on the whole underrated well I mean you [TS]

00:38:57   could you do that I know if dan moore [TS]

00:38:59   and were here he would say the rocketeer [TS]

00:39:01   because he loves that movie I I'll i [TS]

00:39:03   love the Rockets you dearly but i but I [TS]

00:39:06   feel like it would be I don't know every [TS]

00:39:09   everybody likes the rocketeer yes on the [TS]

00:39:11   podcast i feei like I want to talk i [TS]

00:39:14   guess more you can you can skip ahead we [TS]

00:39:16   we've mentioned the rocketeer the [TS]

00:39:17   rocketeers been covered if you've got [TS]

00:39:19   something else you'd like to [TS]

00:39:20   well it's like I i love the rocketeer [TS]

00:39:22   and the rocketeers probably one of my [TS]

00:39:24   favorite superhero films but in terms of [TS]

00:39:26   like underrated and kind of guilt I more [TS]

00:39:29   guilty pleasure is I have a very special [TS]

00:39:30   place in my heart for Mystery Men of all [TS]

00:39:33   which is this not is a movie that came [TS]

00:39:35   out in 1999 which is basically about a [TS]

00:39:37   bunch of misanthropic too [TS]

00:39:39   heroes and did terribly the box and [TS]

00:39:41   still are right yeah against ben stiller [TS]

00:39:44   but the really i mean on unlike sort of [TS]

00:39:48   an outside glands it's like you look at [TS]

00:39:49   the trailer you're like okay this is [TS]

00:39:51   going to be ridiculous and kind of [TS]

00:39:52   stupid but it i mean and and it has its [TS]

00:39:56   ridiculous moments but there's something [TS]

00:39:58   to be said about the group of the [TS]

00:40:00   outcasts who band together and try and [TS]

00:40:03   try and take care of people and getting [TS]

00:40:05   rid of the popular shoot like the [TS]

00:40:07   popular super heroes vs. the unpopular [TS]

00:40:09   superheroes and accidentally killing the [TS]

00:40:12   popular superhero and william h macy as [TS]

00:40:14   a superhero which is just hilarious [TS]

00:40:15   visitors gene Gruffalo as a superhero [TS]

00:40:22   eddie izzard isn't it is one of the [TS]

00:40:24   villain something like that but it's [TS]

00:40:27   just it's one of those it's one of those [TS]

00:40:29   films that when i'm kinda like 16 or [TS]

00:40:33   when I'm down its such it's so like so [TS]

00:40:35   much fun to watch very ridiculous [TS]

00:40:38   all right mystery man John what about [TS]

00:40:40   you what what underappreciated do you [TS]

00:40:42   think this will be quick because so [TS]

00:40:44   we've already pretty much disgusted but [TS]

00:40:46   I think Batman Begins is underrated [TS]

00:40:48   mostly because the dark knight just [TS]

00:40:49   squashes it in the minds of the public [TS]

00:40:51   but if you go back and watch batman [TS]

00:40:53   begins its like a breath of fresh air [TS]

00:40:54   like maybe the highs are as high as they [TS]

00:40:56   are in Dark Knight but the overall [TS]

00:40:58   average of the movies much higher is [TS]

00:41:00   just clean tidy takes itself seriously [TS]

00:41:02   does everything that you know either [TS]

00:41:05   competently or well and and it really [TS]

00:41:07   holds together re-watching it recently i [TS]

00:41:09   was reminded of how much more like this [TS]

00:41:12   like I'd I I'd almost forgotten it [TS]

00:41:14   existed because you know dark knight is [TS]

00:41:16   says you know come and taken over the [TS]

00:41:18   consciousness but uh that one that I [TS]

00:41:20   think deserves more credit than dark [TS]

00:41:22   night and is consequently underrated by [TS]

00:41:24   most people this point I'm with you [TS]

00:41:26   there I actually think that that might [TS]

00:41:27   be Christopher Nolan's best movie [TS]

00:41:28   because i also thought inception was [TS]

00:41:31   kinda shaky but that's another podcast [TS]

00:41:32   anyway about momento i did--like momenta [TS]

00:41:35   well mementos up there and I like the [TS]

00:41:37   what's the magician movie that he did [TS]

00:41:40   this is the 11th prestige the Presti [TS]

00:41:42   machine of the Presti's that might be my [TS]

00:41:43   favorite but it's not him [TS]

00:41:45   yeah so but I I'd i agree with you i [TS]

00:41:47   bought back man begins when it came out [TS]

00:41:50   on DVD because I was like that is a [TS]

00:41:51   great i don't buy a lot [TS]

00:41:53   the dvds but that one was a definite [TS]

00:41:55   purchase because I am [TS]

00:41:57   yea big big fan of that one they did a [TS]

00:41:59   great origin story too [TS]

00:42:01   yeah it is it is a good or official [TS]

00:42:03   story is a good origin story because it [TS]

00:42:05   made the material new again I think that [TS]

00:42:07   man Ryan's was probably my favorite I [TS]

00:42:09   new superhero movie until iron man came [TS]

00:42:13   out right does everybody here love iron [TS]

00:42:15   man but that's another one that I i love [TS]

00:42:16   iron man just don't disagree and i love [TS]

00:42:19   them i thought the movie was fun but it [TS]

00:42:21   is not even close to batman begins in my [TS]

00:42:24   mind I don't have anything bad to say [TS]

00:42:26   about ours in my top 5 along with Batman [TS]

00:42:28   Begins I think it's robert downey jr [TS]

00:42:30   honestly that doesn't give me your [TS]

00:42:32   captain's his way through that movie and [TS]

00:42:35   I think it that's one of the best things [TS]

00:42:36   about that movie maybe I'm just not into [TS]

00:42:38   iron man kind of the same way around the [TS]

00:42:39   spider-man it's a good movie [TS]

00:42:41   it doesn't have anything wrong with it [TS]

00:42:42   just it didn't want me as much as Batman [TS]

00:42:44   Begins other than JK Simmons jonah [TS]

00:42:47   Jameson it maybe Robert Downey junior [TS]

00:42:49   Ironman maybe the best bit of superhero [TS]

00:42:51   movie casting ever [TS]

00:42:52   I mean it's that was good casting its [TS]

00:42:54   purpose i don't know much about iron man [TS]

00:42:56   but you i mean he he just as iron man 3 [TS]

00:42:58   billionaire so you're talking with Tony [TS]

00:43:00   Stark it to ya [TS]

00:43:01   perhaps yeah we have yes absolutely yeah [TS]

00:43:04   yeah I know i-i-i on twitter i was [TS]

00:43:07   talking about my favorite superhero [TS]

00:43:08   movies and and I couldn't decide the [TS]

00:43:10   number three slot whether it would be [TS]

00:43:11   Batman Begins for ironman because i like [TS]

00:43:13   them both and yes I admit one of the [TS]

00:43:15   reasons i like Iron Man my push Ironman [TS]

00:43:17   is because it was released at the [TS]

00:43:18   beginning of the summer that the Dark [TS]

00:43:20   Knight came out and everybody said oh [TS]

00:43:22   dark knight grade its best picture and [TS]

00:43:24   all this stuff and I said wow you know I [TS]

00:43:26   it wasn't even the best superhero movie [TS]

00:43:27   to you because I I've had a much I came [TS]

00:43:29   out of iron man feeling so great it was [TS]

00:43:33   such a ride and you know what when I [TS]

00:43:36   watch it back it's still a good it's [TS]

00:43:37   still a really good movie [TS]

00:43:38   it makes you smile yeah it's fun the [TS]

00:43:41   only time somebody iron man my son this [TS]

00:43:44   is one of my great accomplishments as a [TS]

00:43:46   parent my son loved Iron Man Iron movie [TS]

00:43:50   so much he actually likes the ironman [TS]

00:43:53   video game which is terrible [TS]

00:43:55   which is awful haha no that is an [TS]

00:43:58   endorsement and that's the power of [TS]

00:44:00   intellectual property I'm gonna say for [TS]

00:44:02   my for my underappreciated and actually [TS]

00:44:06   looked at [TS]

00:44:07   up on rotten tomatoes and got a [TS]

00:44:08   75-percent of tomato meter reading but I [TS]

00:44:11   feel like maybe it doesn't have a lot of [TS]

00:44:12   credibility as a superhero movie because [TS]

00:44:15   people view it as a kind of cheesy kids [TS]

00:44:18   moving but megamind love the megamind [TS]

00:44:23   and I think that anybody mind is great [TS]

00:44:25   love superheroes should see megamind [TS]

00:44:27   because it is it is a really good movie [TS]

00:44:32   and my kids liked it yeah but i loved it [TS]

00:44:34   and and yes it was a lot of debts to a [TS]

00:44:36   lot of different movies including what [TS]

00:44:38   including the watchman comic book not [TS]

00:44:39   the movie including the incredibles but [TS]

00:44:41   megamind I think 44 jaded geeky people [TS]

00:44:45   who are like I'm not gonna watch that [TS]

00:44:46   that's a kids movie watch megamind I [TS]

00:44:49   just mind was megamind was really good [TS]

00:44:52   and of of the non pixar movies that came [TS]

00:44:54   out in 2010 [TS]

00:44:56   I actually I liked megamind better than [TS]

00:44:59   respectable tickle me know i like to [TS]

00:45:02   make mine a lot my son like mine i think [TS]

00:45:05   quite a bit more than that one with [TS]

00:45:09   corel whatever it's called the CNO me [TS]

00:45:12   been despicable you ya know it was no [TS]

00:45:17   but megamind was really cool and and [TS]

00:45:20   yeah in it and and it's it was a lot but [TS]

00:45:23   she that the reason why that worked i [TS]

00:45:25   think is because the references weren't [TS]

00:45:27   so obvious right a problem with a lot of [TS]

00:45:29   these these animated movies that mean [TS]

00:45:32   they rely too much on obvious pop [TS]

00:45:36   culture references that will be dated an [TS]

00:45:38   interesting problem [TS]

00:45:40   yeah this track and and the worst movie [TS]

00:45:43   of all time in this in this vein was [TS]

00:45:45   planet 51 but but but make mine was was [TS]

00:45:49   really good it was really pretty sound [TS]

00:45:51   and I'm you know what I think that'll [TS]

00:45:54   hold up pretty well and I i hope it i [TS]

00:45:56   hope it does well what one of the best [TS]

00:45:58   if not the best will ferrell performance [TS]

00:46:00   by the way [TS]

00:46:02   so you know ho no yep that's me [TS]

00:46:05   mispronounces ever he refers to the city [TS]

00:46:07   of men of Metrocity as matroska t crimes [TS]

00:46:11   with atrocity throughout it's beautiful [TS]

00:46:13   it's actually a wacky performance but [TS]

00:46:15   it's got the big E's got the big head [TS]

00:46:17   like the leader from the incredible hulk [TS]

00:46:18   and he's the villain but he's sort of [TS]

00:46:21   the hero and these the protagonist and [TS]

00:46:23   it's good so now with our remaining time [TS]

00:46:25   i wanna i wanna flip it over to the [TS]

00:46:27   lighter side i want some on a bash [TS]

00:46:28   praise of a movie that you love that's a [TS]

00:46:30   superhero movie that you would hold up [TS]

00:46:32   and say that's the way to do it [TS]

00:46:34   that's the stuff and for this will start [TS]

00:46:36   with red you have a you have put [TS]

00:46:39   something up on the pedestal [TS]

00:46:40   this is where i put Rocketeer up on the [TS]

00:46:42   pedestal rockin Rapids here racketeer [TS]

00:46:46   and incredibles are my two my to kind of [TS]

00:46:48   top go with all the time superhero react [TS]

00:46:51   the other one's gonna get mentioned [TS]

00:46:52   really Jason you don't sell its possible [TS]

00:46:55   whether only there I've got two and i [TS]

00:46:57   think both of them might be mentioned [TS]

00:46:58   before I could get to me but that's ok [TS]

00:47:00   so Rocketeer provoke a love for for the [TS]

00:47:02   rocket you know Jennifer Connelly's in [TS]

00:47:04   the rocketeer I know Jennifer Connelly's [TS]

00:47:06   in the rocketeer all kind of wonderful [TS]

00:47:07   people in the rocketeer alan arkin in [TS]

00:47:09   the rocketeer Timothy Dalton as well [TS]

00:47:11   Timothy Dalton is great the rocketeer [TS]

00:47:13   Timothy Dalton is fantastic [TS]

00:47:15   I mean I love ok I'm i have a big place [TS]

00:47:18   in my heart for I sort of i think it's [TS]

00:47:22   the Indiana Jones complex where I just [TS]

00:47:24   like movies that are set in the nineteen [TS]

00:47:25   thirties in the nineteen forties there's [TS]

00:47:27   something fantastic about it and that [TS]

00:47:31   the Nazis and I mean you really can't go [TS]

00:47:34   wrong when you have knocked eases as the [TS]

00:47:36   lurking force in a film and people [TS]

00:47:39   flying to the point where i grew up in [TS]

00:47:42   pasadena and the rose parade went right [TS]

00:47:44   by my house when I was a kid and I think [TS]

00:47:48   I came back from college a couple years [TS]

00:47:50   back in george lucas was hosting the the [TS]

00:47:53   Rose Parade that year he was the Grand [TS]

00:47:55   Marshal and had you know the star wars [TS]

00:47:57   star wars floats and most of it was [TS]

00:47:59   pretty cool theme which was unfortunate [TS]

00:48:01   but the highlight of that rose parade [TS]

00:48:04   for me was not like the excess of Star [TS]

00:48:07   Wars but it was the moment where a man [TS]

00:48:09   from Ohio came out of a float strapped [TS]

00:48:13   to what looked like the [TS]

00:48:15   you rock it from the rocketeer and flew [TS]

00:48:18   around the parade group and it was the [TS]

00:48:20   coolest thing because i was you know [TS]

00:48:22   it's like oh my favorite moves and sits [TS]

00:48:25   in real life and was super exciting but [TS]

00:48:28   I'm the the film itself i magically love [TS]

00:48:32   it's there are corny parts in their [TS]

00:48:34   cheesy parts but it's wonderful i love [TS]

00:48:35   the score [TS]

00:48:36   I I is I just feel like I battle over it [TS]

00:48:40   because it's it's yeah it's a comfort [TS]

00:48:43   movie and it's very hard and it takes [TS]

00:48:46   place in LA so right the rocketeer John [TS]

00:48:49   what about you for for uh some happy [TS]

00:48:52   thoughts [TS]

00:48:52   so I'm going to take the one that I [TS]

00:48:54   think is on your list as well I could [TS]

00:48:56   take both of us but i'll just take one [TS]

00:48:57   thanks let Ben take the other one [TS]

00:48:59   yeah all right this could also go under [TS]

00:49:01   underrated because i think it is [TS]

00:49:02   underrated i think it is but it's also [TS]

00:49:06   my favorite superhero movie probably [TS]

00:49:08   because it has most of the trappings of [TS]

00:49:12   a note doesn't have most of the [TS]

00:49:14   trappings of a superhero movie clichés [TS]

00:49:16   but he has all of the clichés they all [TS]

00:49:18   the clichés or they're just not the [TS]

00:49:20   trappings of themselves kind of stealth [TS]

00:49:22   and it's and night shyamalan's [TS]

00:49:23   unbreakable we have my favorite [TS]

00:49:25   superhero movie and my favorite and [TS]

00:49:27   night Shyamalan movie [TS]

00:49:28   yes it outstanding because in there and [TS]

00:49:31   you just like it you like wasting this [TS]

00:49:33   every single cliché from superhero [TS]

00:49:35   movie is there but they do not have the [TS]

00:49:37   window dressing I don't know and just [TS]

00:49:38   you don't know you're watching a [TS]

00:49:40   superhero movie and roll right but very [TS]

00:49:42   late where you realize oh IC right and [TS]

00:49:45   it does it does it all the exact same [TS]

00:49:47   things of a superhero and we are his [TS]

00:49:49   story but in a superhero I don't know [TS]

00:49:51   what the trappings are like but [TS]

00:49:52   obviously the trappings are titled it [TS]

00:49:54   gives you the name of a superhero the [TS]

00:49:55   trappings are that there's you know that [TS]

00:49:58   this theme music for the superpower that [TS]

00:50:00   you're familiar with the superhero ahead [TS]

00:50:02   of time that you know that this this is [TS]

00:50:04   not a a Marvel or DC comic yer this is [TS]

00:50:07   nobody this is this is a in the same way [TS]

00:50:09   in a real-life superhero situation does [TS]

00:50:11   not believe you just said that there's [TS]

00:50:13   no foreknowledge of who the superhero is [TS]

00:50:16   what their name is going to be what [TS]

00:50:17   their powers are going to be from [TS]

00:50:18   variety from the from the audience from [TS]

00:50:19   the person involved in the story at all [TS]

00:50:21   so we're talking about you know why do [TS]

00:50:22   they have to redo the origin stories [TS]

00:50:24   everyone knows spider- that's that's [TS]

00:50:26   part of the problem like the title of [TS]

00:50:27   the movie is Spiderman ever [TS]

00:50:28   no there's got to be some manners a [TS]

00:50:29   spider and we probably heard of [TS]

00:50:31   spider-man we've heard of Superman right [TS]

00:50:33   there's always called unbreakable will [TS]

00:50:35   make out nothing [TS]

00:50:36   it's a fake out because everybody saw [TS]

00:50:39   the sixth sense and so they're thinking [TS]

00:50:40   it's gonna be a thriller it's gonna be a [TS]

00:50:42   supernatural kind of story and and for a [TS]

00:50:46   guy whose whole career has been derailed [TS]

00:50:48   I mean eventually by himself but also by [TS]

00:50:49   the reputation of his first movie the [TS]

00:50:52   unbreakable is great i think in part [TS]

00:50:54   because it does play against his [TS]

00:50:56   reputation in a way that means and this [TS]

00:50:58   may be why it isn't as loved as it [TS]

00:51:00   should be [TS]

00:51:01   you know people are expecting it to be [TS]

00:51:02   one thing and it's and it's another but [TS]

00:51:03   I love that it's it's that's the fake [TS]

00:51:06   out of it he kind of walked backwards [TS]

00:51:08   into success here because all his movies [TS]

00:51:10   are so our shop the same pace to send [TS]

00:51:13   like he's got that that's that every [TS]

00:51:14   night style he has is perfect for a [TS]

00:51:16   movie like The Sixth Sense and it's [TS]

00:51:18   totally not what you expect for Superman [TS]

00:51:20   we have since every single one of his [TS]

00:51:22   movies are like this it just so happens [TS]

00:51:23   that doing a super hero movie like this [TS]

00:51:25   is is great because you're like what's [TS]

00:51:29   going on here is this is this some [TS]

00:51:30   serious you know I don't quite it gets [TS]

00:51:33   you into it in the same way you know [TS]

00:51:34   like for example that same pacing those [TS]

00:51:36   in the village and the village just like [TS]

00:51:37   screw you i'm not you know it just ends [TS]

00:51:41   up being silly or stupid or whatever [TS]

00:51:42   with this just draws you in and draws [TS]

00:51:44   you in and the payoff is there and [TS]

00:51:45   you're like this was the greatest [TS]

00:51:46   superhero movie ever you know and I [TS]

00:51:49   didn't even know what I was watching [TS]

00:51:50   until late in the game and then you look [TS]

00:51:52   Mac you located all those exact same [TS]

00:51:54   things and more as a result that moment [TS]

00:51:56   you know where he's whatever he is what [TS]

00:51:58   like a green poncho man or what ever is [TS]

00:52:01   basically what it is but a man with an [TS]

00:52:03   ancho mr. unbreakable which is no nobody [TS]

00:52:05   goes into the house and he's very [TS]

00:52:06   reluctant to do it and he discovers that [TS]

00:52:08   he's got these abilities and he goes [TS]

00:52:10   into the house and there's the business [TS]

00:52:12   you know they've been there people being [TS]

00:52:13   held captive and their people who are [TS]

00:52:14   dead and he he almost dies and he gets [TS]

00:52:17   saved by the people he saved and that [TS]

00:52:19   it's just so unbelievably powerful i [TS]

00:52:22   actually think powerful in a way that no [TS]

00:52:24   other seen in any other super hero movie [TS]

00:52:27   is and it's got to be because of the [TS]

00:52:29   grounding you get before you get to that [TS]

00:52:30   point that was the movie that [TS]

00:52:32   established I mean that really really [TS]

00:52:35   established the kind of realism that I [TS]

00:52:38   think a lot of audiences have come to [TS]

00:52:41   expect [TS]

00:52:41   back from superhero movies now because [TS]

00:52:44   it really showed you know the the [TS]

00:52:47   humanity and vulnerability of the hero [TS]

00:52:50   and so you see that and in a lot of you [TS]

00:52:52   know in TV shows like heroes and things [TS]

00:52:54   like that i mean i think that movie the [TS]

00:52:56   movie was so good for for that reason [TS]

00:52:58   it's just like what it what it would be [TS]

00:53:01   like a spider man tries to this is under [TS]

00:53:04   what would it be like if you were a [TS]

00:53:05   regular person one day and then you [TS]

00:53:07   found you had these amazing powers the [TS]

00:53:09   next day what what effect will that have [TS]

00:53:11   on you and spider-man it's like well [TS]

00:53:13   this is a big responsibility i'm just a [TS]

00:53:14   teenager and I want to be a teenager but [TS]

00:53:16   you know that but you're still kind of [TS]

00:53:18   like oh I'm spider-man this is like no [TS]

00:53:20   seriously what if you just slug off the [TS]

00:53:22   street with the marriage that has [TS]

00:53:23   problems in a kid and just a job and and [TS]

00:53:26   you know this starts to become a parent [TS]

00:53:28   in your life what would that be like [TS]

00:53:29   what how it manifests itself what would [TS]

00:53:31   do you would you want to be a hero would [TS]

00:53:33   you be interested in this at all you [TS]

00:53:35   know that that level of realism because [TS]

00:53:37   again it space like an M night Shyamalan [TS]

00:53:39   movie you're not sure where they're [TS]

00:53:40   going is like it's a especially the [TS]

00:53:42   beginning like so this is a movie about [TS]

00:53:43   a guy was crazy and thinks he has [TS]

00:53:45   superpowers or as just about his mental [TS]

00:53:47   breakdown or is he gonna like [TS]

00:53:49   accidentally get killed by his boat his [TS]

00:53:52   kid in the kitchen you know whether the [TS]

00:53:53   whole scene with the gun and everything [TS]

00:53:55   you're not sure you know if you don't go [TS]

00:53:58   in which i didn't want to know nothing [TS]

00:54:00   about this movie you don't go in with [TS]

00:54:01   Superman superheroes anywhere in your [TS]

00:54:03   mind those early scenes are just you [TS]

00:54:05   know riveting and confusing and you [TS]

00:54:07   don't quite understand where the movies [TS]

00:54:09   going and then only in retrospect can [TS]

00:54:10   you go back like a superhero he has a [TS]

00:54:12   weakness is our story has an archenemy [TS]

00:54:14   you know now and the end of the pieces [TS]

00:54:17   come together [TS]

00:54:18   yeah the in fact the train wreck at the [TS]

00:54:19   beginning which is stunning eyes I it [TS]

00:54:22   never shows the wreck and yet it is just [TS]

00:54:24   this amazing shocking thing and in [TS]

00:54:27   hindsight you look at that you say well [TS]

00:54:28   that is sort of his equivalent of the [TS]

00:54:30   you know with great power comes great [TS]

00:54:32   responsibility kind of moment where he [TS]

00:54:34   is the only survivor of a train wreck [TS]

00:54:36   and he steps out of the wreckage is [TS]

00:54:37   brought out of the wreckage but at the [TS]

00:54:40   time I mean you how would you ever think [TS]

00:54:42   that that's the context of it and his [TS]

00:54:44   son is also like the great power great [TS]

00:54:46   responsibility his son throw up on in [TS]

00:54:48   the idea of a child saying well but [TS]

00:54:50   don't if you can do these things that [TS]

00:54:52   you have a responsibility to you know [TS]

00:54:54   like it because [TS]

00:54:55   that's just what kids want to hear to [TS]

00:54:56   save them and the father you know an [TS]

00:54:58   adult doesn't think that the kid [TS]

00:54:59   immediately says no you have to be super [TS]

00:55:01   you have to do this the kid you know [TS]

00:55:03   puts more weight on the bar balance says [TS]

00:55:05   now let's see what you can do you have [TS]

00:55:07   to do this right all right Ben it's your [TS]

00:55:10   turn [TS]

00:55:10   I'm stealing your other favorite go [TS]

00:55:13   ahead movie of all time [TS]

00:55:15   the incredibles yeah then surprise [TS]

00:55:16   waiting all yelling 321 in unison say [TS]

00:55:19   the incredibles mean this is a movie [TS]

00:55:22   that everyone is really the sort of [TS]

00:55:24   quintessential superhero movie because [TS]

00:55:26   it is unburdened by any other you know [TS]

00:55:30   property here you have it the the you [TS]

00:55:34   know pixar was able to establish this [TS]

00:55:36   this grand universe this origin but at [TS]

00:55:40   the same time we we can recognize these [TS]

00:55:43   people are never ever any awards and [TS]

00:55:45   story about how they get their powers by [TS]

00:55:46   the way there's just no no origins no [TS]

00:55:49   origin story but in fact it did the [TS]

00:55:51   watchman better than the watchman [TS]

00:55:53   yes I mean it you know we have these [TS]

00:55:55   people who were super powerful and who [TS]

00:55:57   were forced out by the government [TS]

00:56:00   because of lost lots of lessons right [TS]

00:56:05   right nao and the watchman it was [TS]

00:56:07   different but I mean this is basically [TS]

00:56:08   the watchman is it should have been done [TS]

00:56:10   but they do the great i mean the [TS]

00:56:12   incredibles was you know this this this [TS]

00:56:15   great superhero tale about excellence [TS]

00:56:22   yes and yet and duty excellence in Duty [TS]

00:56:25   is really what it comes down to because [TS]

00:56:27   these are people who are you know gods [TS]

00:56:30   among mortals who have an obligation to [TS]

00:56:35   serve their fellow man i mean which is [TS]

00:56:38   what every superhero stories sort of [TS]

00:56:40   about but it is done in such a way it is [TS]

00:56:43   done so well and is done precisely [TS]

00:56:45   because it is it is sort of knew and [TS]

00:56:47   they were able to create this universe [TS]

00:56:50   drawing on influences from all the [TS]

00:56:53   comics and in cartoons and other films [TS]

00:56:56   that we've seen what is done in such a [TS]

00:56:58   such a way that is is unlike anything [TS]

00:57:00   we've ever seen I know Jason you've [TS]

00:57:02   actually said in the past that I mean in [TS]

00:57:04   that particular year i think that was [TS]

00:57:06   not not only your favorite animal [TS]

00:57:08   did film it was also what your favorite [TS]

00:57:10   film yeah that particular year and I [TS]

00:57:12   think it's the best pixar movie and [TS]

00:57:13   that's saying something [TS]

00:57:14   hmm maybe it absolutely is one aspect of [TS]

00:57:17   the incredibles that is interesting for [TS]

00:57:20   a superhero movie but is one of my [TS]

00:57:21   favorite things about the movie is it [TS]

00:57:23   has a very healthy dose of James Bond [TS]

00:57:26   thrown in case it's not a super room but [TS]

00:57:28   they throw that in there and it just [TS]

00:57:29   works so well it's like the special [TS]

00:57:31   spice that you know the secret spice and [TS]

00:57:33   the recipe that just pulls it all [TS]

00:57:34   together for me because that's the [TS]

00:57:35   flavor of like the middle that movie in [TS]

00:57:37   terms of the the setting and action [TS]

00:57:39   scenes and anywhere with you know you [TS]

00:57:41   know the drum mic right in the Michael [TS]

00:57:44   chiquinho score house where is [TS]

00:57:46   channeling john-michael chiquinho score [TS]

00:57:47   is right from John Barry yeah that like [TS]

00:57:50   that that's my favorite scene in the [TS]

00:57:52   whole movie when he's coming in on that [TS]

00:57:53   big manta ray thing and it ducks under [TS]

00:57:55   the water it's a horrific you know [TS]

00:57:56   montage like thing of him getting a [TS]

00:57:59   secret message going to the secret [TS]

00:58:01   island you know you ends up on the [TS]

00:58:03   balcony with this tropical paradise with [TS]

00:58:05   a drink in his hand and they cut to the [TS]

00:58:06   White vacuuming and get ahead of stuffs [TS]

00:58:08   getting dressed I'm gonna get that [TS]

00:58:09   little sequence is one of the one of the [TS]

00:58:11   best put together parts of this movie [TS]

00:58:13   even though it has very little to do [TS]

00:58:14   with superheroes and so much more to do [TS]

00:58:16   it James Bond I feel like it adds [TS]

00:58:18   immensely to the movie gives it gives it [TS]

00:58:19   another flavor instead of just the [TS]

00:58:21   superhero soft well again it's the [TS]

00:58:23   difference between excellence and [TS]

00:58:25   mediocrity or just living living kind of [TS]

00:58:27   the normal life versus living the [TS]

00:58:29   extraordinary life whether it's james [TS]

00:58:31   bond or superhero with super villain in [TS]

00:58:33   this movie his ultimate plan is to give [TS]

00:58:36   everybody superpowers everybody special [TS]

00:58:38   no one will be yeah that's right and I [TS]

00:58:40   mean yes it's not the most subtle [TS]

00:58:41   message of a movie and yet I do i do [TS]

00:58:44   like it that the message in the movie [TS]

00:58:46   and I think it's rare to get this [TS]

00:58:47   message which is you know people who [TS]

00:58:49   have exceptional talents should be [TS]

00:58:52   should not be ashamed of them and should [TS]

00:58:55   make use of them and that seems so basic [TS]

00:58:58   and yet you know i think that you know [TS]

00:59:02   oftentimes in our culture we we have a [TS]

00:59:05   tendency to go the other way so i love [TS]

00:59:06   that that's the whole point not just [TS]

00:59:08   with syndrome wanting to give himself [TS]

00:59:10   powers and give everybody else powers [TS]

00:59:11   but also of dash who has been told not [TS]

00:59:15   to use his his abilities at all and is [TS]

00:59:18   told to you don't even go out for the [TS]

00:59:20   track team [TS]

00:59:20   and you know and then you throw in Duty [TS]

00:59:23   has been said and that comes back to he [TS]

00:59:26   feels a duty to help the people he works [TS]

00:59:28   for the insurance company he feel you [TS]

00:59:31   know if there's the the husband's duty [TS]

00:59:33   to the wife and to support the family [TS]

00:59:34   which leads him into this adventure [TS]

00:59:36   somewhat misguidedly but it also you [TS]

00:59:38   know has this effect where she believes [TS]

00:59:41   that that he's cheating on her and so [TS]

00:59:43   there's this whole marriage dynamic and [TS]

00:59:44   about what the what the marital [TS]

00:59:45   relationship is there what his duty is [TS]

00:59:47   to his wife just so much stuff in here [TS]

00:59:50   on top of the fantastic look the [TS]

00:59:53   fantastic soundtrack you know it's just [TS]

00:59:55   I was watching this this weekend with my [TS]

00:59:58   kids and and it's a [TS]

00:59:58   kids and and it's a [TS]

01:00:00   so what prompted this podcast and I am [TS]

01:00:03   blown away by that movie every time I [TS]

01:00:05   watch it I think well you know I've seen [TS]

01:00:07   this a million times and I always get [TS]

01:00:08   something else out of it [TS]

01:00:09   the midlife crisis angle in the middle [TS]

01:00:11   are the air as well because that that's [TS]

01:00:14   a whole other you mean you could do a [TS]

01:00:15   whole movie based around you can imagine [TS]

01:00:16   for example DreamWorks doing entire [TS]

01:00:18   movie based around a superhero in my [TS]

01:00:21   life crisis that's just a tiny part of [TS]

01:00:23   this movie but it fits in so perfectly [TS]

01:00:24   because you know it's it's barely an [TS]

01:00:27   allegory at that point because men have [TS]

01:00:29   midlife crisis i think while i was in [TS]

01:00:30   high school I was Superman and look at [TS]

01:00:32   me now I'm just I'm fat and I'm a slob [TS]

01:00:34   and I can't get to use my superpowers [TS]

01:00:36   and I've got a wife and I'm tied down [TS]

01:00:37   and my wife pointed out something that [TS]

01:00:39   made me laugh that he he starts out many [TS]

01:00:43   does his first adventure in his old [TS]

01:00:44   sutin and he's really fat and then he [TS]

01:00:46   gets the new suit but between then [TS]

01:00:49   between those two scenes he starts [TS]

01:00:51   working out and he drops weight and he [TS]

01:00:53   looks a lot better because he's working [TS]

01:00:56   out at the rail yard picking up train [TS]

01:00:57   cars and stuff like that and when he [TS]

01:00:59   goes to Edna to get his suit she looks [TS]

01:01:02   at mrs. god you've gotten fat and I [TS]

01:01:04   loved that because no no he's better now [TS]

01:01:06   he looks better than he did a couple of [TS]

01:01:08   months ago and she still thinks he's [TS]

01:01:10   completely lost it i want just yeah i [TS]

01:01:13   mean i will Brad Bird who's made some [TS]

01:01:16   incredible movies because no pun [TS]

01:01:18   intended again uh including the Iron [TS]

01:01:20   Giant and ratatouille and every time I [TS]

01:01:23   hear a new Pixar sequel announced i am [TS]

01:01:26   sad again that it's not an incredible [TS]

01:01:28   sequel although I guess brad bird will [TS]

01:01:29   make that movie when he's good and ready [TS]

01:01:31   you don't want that rushed i don't know [TS]

01:01:33   why it's just a perfect combination of [TS]

01:01:35   things I very little to say a bad about [TS]

01:01:37   it's interesting that it's kind of [TS]

01:01:38   lifted from the Fantastic Four except [TS]

01:01:40   the human torch just replaced by the [TS]

01:01:42   flash I guess but you know I like having [TS]

01:01:45   that superhero family just mixes up all [TS]

01:01:48   these great elements and it doesn't feel [TS]

01:01:49   like a mishmash it feels like it's sort [TS]

01:01:52   of perfectly balanced and I think that [TS]

01:01:54   goes to the story system that they have [TS]

01:01:56   at Pixar where they really they really [TS]

01:01:58   work on the story and put and and to the [TS]

01:02:01   point where they don't make bad movies [TS]

01:02:02   and the screenplays that they have are [TS]

01:02:05   all walk down that pretty solid was just [TS]

01:02:08   a wonderfully complex movie there's just [TS]

01:02:10   layers upon layers of different things [TS]

01:02:12   it's one of [TS]

01:02:13   as as you'd say in Hollywood speak it's [TS]

01:02:17   a four-quadrant movie where somebody [TS]

01:02:19   from every you know the teenage boys [TS]

01:02:21   like it the teenage girls like it the [TS]

01:02:23   young kids like it the parents like it [TS]

01:02:26   you know the older the older generation [TS]

01:02:28   likes it there is something quite [TS]

01:02:29   literally for everyone to enjoy [TS]

01:02:31   think of how they put all of those [TS]

01:02:32   aspects and all those stories into one [TS]

01:02:35   movie that's not too long that's this no [TS]

01:02:37   fat there's no wasted seems it's it's an [TS]

01:02:40   amazing achievement of connecting a [TS]

01:02:42   bunch of jigsaw pieces but again two or [TS]

01:02:44   three of those pieces can make an entire [TS]

01:02:45   bed dreamworks movie at like it that's [TS]

01:02:47   our plot the middle I don't know [TS]

01:02:48   supercilious and Lancelot the shy girl [TS]

01:02:50   who comes into her own when she gets her [TS]

01:02:52   powers like every single one of those [TS]

01:02:54   things there's so many characters and so [TS]

01:02:56   much movie in here it's amazing they get [TS]

01:02:58   it all in under you know whatever it is [TS]

01:02:59   less than two hours think yeah well uh [TS]

01:03:02   any movies that we missed I I can't I [TS]

01:03:05   can't bring my movies to the table [TS]

01:03:06   because it i was when i was forming my [TS]

01:03:09   all-time top five high fidelity style [TS]

01:03:12   superhero movie list it was the [TS]

01:03:15   incredibles unbreakable Iron Man [TS]

01:03:17   spider-man 3 and i'm not sure what I had [TS]

01:03:21   it spider-man three are sorry spider-man [TS]

01:03:23   2 oh god no i'm not quite sure what I [TS]

01:03:26   had at number five but maybe nothing [TS]

01:03:29   maybe that's open not the watchman not [TS]

01:03:32   the one now well on that note I'm going [TS]

01:03:34   to I'm going to close the doors of the [TS]

01:03:36   halls of Justice the whole justice [TS]

01:03:38   something like that i'm gonna i'm going [TS]

01:03:40   to say goodbye and i'm sure we will pick [TS]

01:03:43   up this topic again later they're so [TS]

01:03:44   much to it but until that time I would [TS]

01:03:47   like to thank my guess John siracusa [TS]

01:03:49   thank you very much for being here again [TS]

01:03:51   and you're very welcome addition then [TS]

01:03:53   Boychuk thanks for thanks for being on [TS]

01:03:56   the podcast again it's good we'll have [TS]

01:03:57   to have you back soon and you very much [TS]

01:04:00   and serenity called well thank you again [TS]

01:04:02   for dropping in and sharing with us your [TS]

01:04:04   love of the rocketeer well thank you [TS]

01:04:06   Jason and until next time thanks to [TS]

01:04:09   everybody out there for listening to the [TS]

01:04:10   incomparable i'm jason l will see you [TS]

01:04:13   next time [TS]