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The Incomparable

299: Stark Differences

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0:00:00the uncomfortable number 299 may 2016

0:00:11welcome back everybody to the

0:00:12uncomfortable this is a special episode

0:00:14where we had despite a popular thought

0:00:17that we like watch every new release and

0:00:20then immediately podcast about it

0:00:21actually only happens maybe once or

0:00:22twice a year

0:00:23this is one of those episodes a bunch of

0:00:25us went and saw captain america colon

0:00:28Civil War recently and because it came

0:00:31out a couple of days ago unless you're

0:00:33in the UK in which case I don't even

0:00:34know if one of our guests gonna even

0:00:35remember what happened because it came

0:00:37out last week so we're going to talk

0:00:39about civil war and let me introduce our

0:00:41guests i'm gonna start with james

0:00:43thompson because he is in Scotland and

0:00:45therefore saw this like more than a week

0:00:47ago and has been lording it over us the

0:00:49whole time

0:00:49hi James well thank you Jason's now I

0:00:53know you know a lot of super people so

0:00:55thanks for thinking of me and you know I

0:00:59knew it was you or tony stank I David

0:01:02jail or is in Indiana and so he aside

0:01:05more or less one with the rest of us did

0:01:06I David hi you guys are awesome

0:01:09uh boise st on is in texas and i believe

0:01:13Texas is still on in the u.s. so I think

0:01:16he saw us all screaming so you saw

0:01:19probably but uh earlier this week is

0:01:21that right yeah i saw press ground I'm

0:01:23sorry Jason I lost track i was talking

0:01:25to your heart and over here

0:01:26mm and what were we talking about she is

0:01:29big with the Utes on anyway

0:01:33Lisa Schmeisser like me in California

0:01:36saw it very recently hi Lisa

0:01:39hi there it's a pleasure to be here and

0:01:41I I'm not sure is the movie come out in

0:01:43canada yet

0:01:44Erica enzyme yeah we saw it on thursday

0:01:47and when you say we do you mean your

0:01:49husband Stephen Japan ski assault with

0:01:51you I let him speak for himself

0:01:53I did see it with the thanks that if we

0:01:55if we didn't have justin trudeau in the

0:01:57and as prime minister now we probably

0:01:59wouldn't have gotten as early as we did

0:02:01now but now that the US Canada relations

0:02:03I said her now

0:02:04yeah now that the war's over taxpayers

0:02:07justin trudeau isn't already a part of

0:02:09the event any war involving Canada is a

0:02:12civil war

0:02:13oh the most civil it ends with one story

0:02:18paper so civil war you know

0:02:21Marvel it we will we do when we get our

0:02:23age of Ultron episode last summer I i

0:02:25think there was a conversation that we

0:02:26had that I keep coming back to which is

0:02:28that these aren't you know these are

0:02:30movies as we think of movies in that

0:02:32they're not stand alone movies they are

0:02:33they are part of this ongoing story line

0:02:36i think this is a movie that is not

0:02:39something that can be deeply appreciated

0:02:40if you either whole lot of levels here

0:02:44that you really need to have seen all

0:02:46the other Marvel movies released many of

0:02:47the other Marvel movies to get it and I

0:02:50i think what's great about that is that

0:02:53if you go in with that level of

0:02:55knowledge sort of like a long-running TV

0:02:56show then you can get a whole lot more

0:02:58out of it so I thought maybe we would

0:03:00start there

0:03:02I you know everybody's thoughts about

0:03:04this this this movie as an installment

0:03:07in a series and and how that you know

0:03:10how that played off of of your over your

0:03:12reaction to it how did your reaction fit

0:03:14in in terms of it being not a standalone

0:03:17movie as an actor would always remind us

0:03:19doesn't stand alone

0:03:20really i think but it is definitely part

0:03:23of the storyline that they've been

0:03:25building for so many movies now that

0:03:27makes so much money it's kind of amusing

0:03:29that the further they into the Marvel

0:03:31vs. the more the movie feel like comics

0:03:32where you have to where you have to have

0:03:36read all the backstory to fully

0:03:37appreciate the cameos over the

0:03:39developments or understand why something

0:03:40so significant especially the Atman

0:03:44sequence for example which I enjoyed

0:03:46greatly don't get me wrong but and it

0:03:50provided some much-needed levity

0:03:52however I feel like if you hadn't seen

0:03:54the ant-man movie book is already in the

0:03:57back of this bad acting like every guy

0:03:59and why is he putting on this suit and

0:04:02again that whole experience kind of

0:04:04reminds me of the experience of reading

0:04:05comments especially when the editors

0:04:07used to have to put notes footnotes you

0:04:10in the FCC issued of this is that I mean

0:04:13why is this black guy wearing a bomber

0:04:15jacket again

0:04:15yeah so you know I i agree with you that

0:04:19as the movies estimate ology gets more

0:04:22complex appreciate you can't really

0:04:25appreciate the standalone movies and I

0:04:27think it's kind of funny that these huge

0:04:28traumatic experiences are becoming more

0:04:30and more like the experience of reading

0:04:31comic books in the nineteen eighties

0:04:32where you have to put in the time in the

0:04:34knowledge just 200 this is why it's a

0:04:37big deal for or expected but you get you

0:04:40know you get some richness out of having

0:04:42it but you do have to have that

0:04:43experience

0:04:44yeah do i schooled outlet in the theater

0:04:46when when are we actually talked about

0:04:48what happened in the movies yes yes this

0:04:50would this is I will say it now i also

0:04:52thank you Lisa for prompting me

0:04:53hey this is the time we're going to fire

0:04:55off the spoiler horn this movies in

0:04:57theaters as we record this go see it and

0:04:59if you are haven't seen it yet don't

0:05:01listen to this yet

0:05:06okay I feel better the spoiler warning

0:05:08has encouraged us to continue because I

0:05:10actually kind of school that level of

0:05:12theater when um when Scott line hits the

0:05:15suit and then goes up to 50 feet

0:05:16yeah and it was kind of exciting to to

0:05:22watch that to talk to watch it go from

0:05:24both small to big that way and you

0:05:26didn't have to watch read the comics to

0:05:28get as excited about that but I still

0:05:30feel like there was a tiny bit of of

0:05:32layer word it did kind of helped me

0:05:34recover from you know the city of

0:05:35directions to the III actually I had the

0:05:37Giant Man Thing spoiled for me like a

0:05:39million people by I know lego set or

0:05:41something or another like that yeah

0:05:43oh sorry like a confirmation from Steve

0:05:45Inskeep yeah he's right i can get for a

0:05:48mix this happened

0:05:49ok i ended up actually kind of

0:05:51forgetting about it and even even

0:05:53knowing and management and the Avengers

0:05:56and all this stuff as well as I do

0:05:57even as Scotland's is saying you know

0:06:00only tried this once and nearly tore me

0:06:01in half and I can only do it for a few

0:06:03minutes i'm still think you want to see

0:06:05allow oh snap oh ok alright the movie

0:06:09had me to that extent that I'd forgotten

0:06:12about some of the stuff that I that I've

0:06:13known you know for like a year and a

0:06:15half yeah say yeah it's it's a it's a

0:06:17great moment I was so one of things that

0:06:21i think is one of the strongest scenes

0:06:23in the movie but i also think it only

0:06:24well I can see it only works because i

0:06:27feel it is so much better because of the

0:06:30other movies that we've seen with a

0:06:33specifically with tony stark and Steve

0:06:35Rogers is their conversation at the

0:06:37conference room table fairly early on

0:06:39right where they're where they're

0:06:41initially debating this idea of the

0:06:43psycho via chords and how they're going

0:06:45to regulate super-powered people and

0:06:49it's you know it's not a bad

0:06:51conversation on its face but if you've

0:06:55seen the captain america movie the Iron

0:06:57Man movies in the Avengers movies I feel

0:06:59like that scene is so much more a deep

0:07:03and interesting and I felt like that was

0:07:06the moment where I thought okay I see

0:07:07why this is a different kind of movie

0:07:10storytelling and why they are getting

0:07:13like this is the power of having stacked

0:07:15all these stories together is you can do

0:07:16a scene like that and you know who these

0:07:18guys are it

0:07:19it's the pinnacle it's the pinnacle of a

0:07:21series of Avengers scenes that take

0:07:23place around a conference room today yes

0:07:24and there are many James now I was just

0:07:27going to say I mean this is like the

0:07:2813th movie i think and and then moving

0:07:32to three movies a year as of 2017 who

0:07:36and it's just gonna get harder and

0:07:37harder i think to keep on top of the

0:07:39list of yeah it's really more like Game

0:07:41of Thrones you said the least Game of

0:07:42Thrones has the decency to kill

0:07:44characters are off and there's just one

0:07:47more on and they did kill off the lowest

0:07:49docks and that's I do i do want these

0:07:51are fun compared the game of thrones

0:07:54well I don't want to make this a game of

0:07:55thrones podcast I've got that later too

0:07:58I'm not what i would say is uh keep

0:08:01let's keep in mind a lot of these actors

0:08:03are their contracts run out after the

0:08:05next to Avengers movies and so I feel

0:08:08like what we are seeing is we need to

0:08:09introduce characters now because these

0:08:11are ones who are going to be around

0:08:13after the first wave of characters leave

0:08:16us because their contracts are up so

0:08:18that does feel a little bit like you've

0:08:19gotta I've gotta introduce these new

0:08:21characters so you can have something

0:08:24left after you know after Robert Downey

0:08:26jr. and chris evans say I'm done goodbye

0:08:28i'm going to count my money and let's

0:08:29introduce cactus look 13 so that we can

0:08:32keep going for that you find cheap to a

0:08:35rookie interior deal

0:08:36yeah I really like the casting for

0:08:38spider-man that like I'm I it was it's

0:08:40the first cinematic spider-man I've seen

0:08:42was like yeah I can possibly believe

0:08:43this is this is a gated this is a kid in

0:08:45New York as opposed to this is a

0:08:47remarkably mature looking at high school

0:08:50it happens to their study resemblance

0:08:52intended or he also sounds like he's

0:08:54from Queens to that's the first time

0:08:56they've done that

0:08:57yea even these American accent sounds a

0:08:59hell of a lot better than a lot of exes

0:09:01tablished grown English actors doing

0:09:04American accents so good for him and one

0:09:07of the things that I really liked here

0:09:09is is you have the consistency of the

0:09:11same screenwriters through all of the

0:09:13captain america movies and so II even

0:09:17more so than just having all of the

0:09:18Marvel movies coalescing here you've got

0:09:21this theme of of cap learning to work

0:09:24with a team through all the movies right

0:09:26in the first one he's got the Howling

0:09:28Commandos and in the first one he yearns

0:09:31to be part of the army

0:09:32it that's his whole thing is he wants to

0:09:34be in the army in the second one now

0:09:36he's he's learned to work with shield

0:09:38and everybody in the in present-day and

0:09:41now in this one you have the team kind

0:09:42of breaking up and and but he still

0:09:44needs people he still needs that team

0:09:46but now it's that warring instinct

0:09:50between his current team and his old

0:09:52team scores Bucky was in the Howling

0:09:54Commandos so it's it's this really nice

0:09:57theme there's a there's a there's a

0:09:59reason this is a captain america movie

0:10:00and not an event yes it's also the logic

0:10:03follow-on to the winter soldier movie

0:10:05and in a way that the Avengers although

0:10:07the event events of the Avengers are she

0:10:09warned in here as far as an example of

0:10:10why they need to regulate you know it

0:10:14it's it's really a fall on from the

0:10:16paranoia of of winter soldier and how

0:10:19how Steve learns that he kinda can't

0:10:22trust the people who have been put in

0:10:24charge and that that is what drives him

0:10:26in this movie and so it even though it

0:10:29does feel like an avengers movie and

0:10:30many many points I i can see why this is

0:10:33a logical third captain america movie

0:10:36and cic are slightly differently because

0:10:39in the first movie it's steve learning

0:10:41to trust himself especially after he's

0:10:43been zapped with the vinery and in arm

0:10:46and the roots for the distress with

0:10:49shield in the winter soldier actually go

0:10:50back to the Avengers when he discovers

0:10:52that he's been lying to their developing

0:10:54the weapons and I saw that the trust

0:10:56issue Steve Rogers works out in winter

0:10:58soldier is who can he trust in the

0:11:01answer is is that he's good

0:11:02is that he's got black widow and he's

0:11:05got from Sam and to his shock

0:11:08there's the question of does he choose

0:11:10to trust Bucky and so yeah he puts his

0:11:12faith in in Bucky at the very end of the

0:11:13movie and in this one

0:11:16the answer is Steve chooses to trust

0:11:18people overall people in human nature /

0:11:20institutions so I saw that is kind of

0:11:22the arc where it's sort of the evolution

0:11:23of whose team chooses to trust and why

0:11:26he chooses to trust them and then they

0:11:28like laying right out for you and that

0:11:29letter to Tony Stark in the final in the

0:11:31final sequence where he's like I don't

0:11:33trust institutions I choose to put my

0:11:35faith in people and the fact that he

0:11:37gives Tony both the letter where he

0:11:39apologizes and explains himself and then

0:11:41give him the phone with you can call me

0:11:43if you need me

0:11:44is him extending an olive branch and I

0:11:46liked how that mirrored Tony's attempt

0:11:48to to explain his side of things and

0:11:50extend the olive branch to Steve in a

0:11:52way that he thought Steve would would

0:11:54want with that historic pen signing like

0:11:56that scene with the two of them earlier

0:11:58return it's like it's an easy can get

0:12:00the words out that it's an olive branch

0:12:01he just shoves the pen over and tries to

0:12:03explain himself

0:12:04I thought that was like the most nuanced

0:12:06seen in their history together

0:12:07yes so yeah yeah so I really like the

0:12:10way it's mirrored and reversed in the

0:12:12end one seems like look I choose to

0:12:14trust people and even though you are

0:12:16somehow and on this weird government

0:12:18prison thing and I'm and all that I

0:12:21trust you to come through and do the

0:12:23right thing in the end and here's my

0:12:24santa fe and that's a trust that that

0:12:26Tony and weirdly enough i'm sorry i

0:12:29sleeping on it sort of parallels that

0:12:31I'm seeing an iron man 2i think it is

0:12:34where Tony's watching old footage of his

0:12:36dad and his dad finally turns the camera

0:12:38and says Tony I'm doing this for you

0:12:40I'm trusting you with my life's work

0:12:41this is what we're doing and once again

0:12:43it's it's somebody who Tony wanted to

0:12:46earn trust and affection from who

0:12:47finally gives it to him like kind of a

0:12:49distance but the point is he gets it

0:12:51I completely agree that the only thing

0:12:53that I'd have to add is I like that in

0:12:55in maintaining Steve's are we get

0:12:57touches like toward the end of Civil War

0:12:59Steve saying I could do this all day

0:13:02going all the way back to the beginning

0:13:05the first movie and and I feel like well

0:13:07too lowly exactly exactly and what we

0:13:11get overall in terms of his arc where we

0:13:13leave him at the end of this movie is

0:13:15for me the fully formed captain america

0:13:18that i know that you know I consider

0:13:19this is this is your this is this is the

0:13:22the the the the final form of Captain

0:13:26America as it were

0:13:27this is this is the captain america that

0:13:28we're going to get from here on as a

0:13:30constant and and I'm totally okay with

0:13:33us not getting a whole ton of you know

0:13:35developing Steve Rogers more and more

0:13:37and more going forward and letting him

0:13:39be a constant that we build other

0:13:42characters around it and I thought the

0:13:44movie was a little tight on the heavy on

0:13:46the Christ imagery at times because you

0:13:48could well it did because that's know

0:13:50that scene where he goes and grabs the

0:13:51helicopter and you get the beauty shot

0:13:53of his arms like tell me that's not

0:13:55crucifixion venturi and

0:13:57then you know he calls people he calls

0:13:59people to him more or less and extend

0:14:02mercy to people who don't deserve it

0:14:03like Wanda and then he's forgiving

0:14:05people over and over again and he's

0:14:08sacrificing himself for Bucky and I was

0:14:11like wow you really like the only other

0:14:14superhero that you that I've seen this

0:14:16much explicit cry symmetry with is for

0:14:19men one and Sharon Carter brings them

0:14:21all of his stuff and sings everything's

0:14:23alright everything's fine musical

0:14:26theater now no musical theater is

0:14:27everything I was just going to me that

0:14:29was in the movie I would I would I would

0:14:31put it to the panel that was in the most

0:14:32so the uh I think I I think talking

0:14:36about Superman is a parallel is

0:14:37interesting we're not gonna talk about

0:14:39Batman vs Superman but i do think that

0:14:41captain america has the same challenges

0:14:43a character that Superman has which is

0:14:45in many ways and and in many search

0:14:48traditional portrayals they are perfect

0:14:50and smiley and everybody loves them and

0:14:52they're all about goodness and evil they

0:14:54treat choose goodness at all times and

0:14:56it's hard i think to draw some

0:14:59interesting distinctions at in a

0:15:00character like that and I i am impressed

0:15:02with how they've handled it with steve

0:15:05rogers in the Marvel movies where he's a

0:15:06much more interesting character than I

0:15:08think I expected him to be when when

0:15:11they made the first captain america

0:15:12movie which i thought would be kind of

0:15:14boring and actually turned out to be

0:15:15pretty good and it's I I you know I

0:15:17credit chris evans and credit to the

0:15:19writers and and the producers of these

0:15:20movies that he's interesting because he

0:15:23is and that's not that's not a given and

0:15:26that's not easy i think captain america

0:15:28actually is probably my the one thing

0:15:30that I didn't like about this movie ever

0:15:32what runs through it and I and this is

0:15:35and i like the first to captain

0:15:36Americans I think they're probably my

0:15:38favorite of all the Avengers movies

0:15:39yeah i agree what i did i just find that

0:15:41you know that the the way that Marvel

0:15:43sort of like you know leaking in

0:15:44real-world events into their marvel

0:15:47universe and and this what this movie

0:15:50said to me is that basically America in

0:15:53the form of Captain America goes it

0:15:55alone because they think they know

0:15:56what's best and the whole time I'm

0:15:58thinking what captain america is

0:16:00actually wrong on this one you know hehe

0:16:02is he's breaking up the team he's

0:16:04causing a lot more damage anything's and

0:16:06at the very end he basically says

0:16:08hey I'm still cool though you know we

0:16:10can all still be friends and everything

0:16:11and it's almost like that's kind of like

0:16:13what America Tizen foreign policy this

0:16:15might be why Canadians need it is

0:16:16Captain America come on he is Captain

0:16:19America you know

0:16:20[Music]

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0:18:49incomparable let's talk about the the

0:18:54two sides here and there takes on this

0:18:56and I I will also say the real world

0:18:58like this even said the real world

0:18:59bleeding in I think beyond a certain

0:19:01point it's dangerous to get to reel with

0:19:04these movies because I I think I'll what

0:19:08they've done is sort of gotten slightly

0:19:09real with it and if they took it to the

0:19:11full extent it would kind of make no

0:19:13sense because you would really need laws

0:19:15and things and structures to control

0:19:16superheroes and for quite frankly that

0:19:18point you're not watching Marvel Super

0:19:20Heroes anymore you're watching kind of

0:19:21militarized powered people and that's a

0:19:24very different kind of story so that

0:19:25they're doing a light touch on it

0:19:27so what we get is this real split

0:19:30between the idea that the superpower

0:19:32people should sort of do what they want

0:19:34because they know what was was right

0:19:36which I agree with stephen that's a

0:19:38little sinister right because it is

0:19:39essentially saying we know what's best

0:19:41where the most powerful creatures on

0:19:42earth and we're going to be in charge of

0:19:43what we do and then you've got the other

0:19:45side which is which is tony and the

0:19:47government and and the guy from from

0:19:51that movie that the incredible hulk

0:19:53movie that nobody saw grass be a general

0:19:57Ross who is now Secretary Rice saying

0:20:00will trust the people in the government

0:20:01which is also kind of hilarious given

0:20:04that the the last shadowy international

0:20:06consortium that ran superheroes tried to

0:20:09New York City I that but no no totally

0:20:13and then Hydra was inside shield but no

0:20:15no this time for sure we're going to be

0:20:16fine so we should structure that way i

0:20:18don't think the either of them are great

0:20:20choices but it is interesting

0:20:21those are the choices and that it's a

0:20:23switcheroo in that Steve mr. uh I'm

0:20:26representing the the establishment is

0:20:29the rebel here and Tony cuz he's racked

0:20:31by guilt I guess as decided that it's

0:20:35time to for him to grow up and be part

0:20:37of the the system so that what would

0:20:39what did y'all think of the that core

0:20:41the core battle between the registration

0:20:44side and the we're gonna go at our own

0:20:46wayside one of the things I thought was

0:20:48interesting that the

0:20:49lost from the original comics was the

0:20:51whole stuff about giving up your secret

0:20:55identity which was one of the reasons i

0:20:57think captain america was against it for

0:20:58all civil liberties aspect of that and

0:21:02there's the big moment where spider-man

0:21:04you know reveals his identity on

0:21:06national TV and I think once they took

0:21:09that away

0:21:09I was kind of I don't know I was very

0:21:13much on Captain America side for most of

0:21:15the movie and I thought Tony Stark was

0:21:17being an ass for most of the phone pit

0:21:20and and well that's just normal trip

0:21:24yeah yeah but no more so because I mean

0:21:27I I generally have you know i like him

0:21:30in all the other movies and in this

0:21:31movie I didn't really like him and a lot

0:21:34of the decisions he made throughout the

0:21:35movie i was just complaining about

0:21:39so yeah I mean that it was it was an

0:21:43interesting way that they are kind of

0:21:45because people also took different sides

0:21:48in this than they did in the comics

0:21:49because vision and to challenge were on

0:21:51Steve Rogers side and the comic and

0:21:54things like that so i don't know if they

0:21:56just wanted to get it exactly balanced

0:21:58yeah i think they did was six on each

0:22:00side and you know one woman on each side

0:22:03just be careful please

0:22:06I was interesting to see how they broke

0:22:08down who was on which side because it

0:22:10and I was thinking about this yesterday

0:22:12when one because I was trying to puzzle

0:22:14i would have something and I thought

0:22:16well it actually what it comes down to

0:22:19is it's a belief instead it is a belief

0:22:23in chaotic good versus lawful good if

0:22:26that makes sense

0:22:27well it is because if you look at who's

0:22:29on Tony side you have someone like

0:22:31vision who seems to be somebody who's

0:22:35like yeah look we have to uphold the

0:22:36principle of the matter the principal is

0:22:38something that always applies no matter

0:22:39the circumstances and you have Natasha

0:22:42who in Avengers like I have a lot of red

0:22:45in my ledger and you know because these

0:22:48movies none of these movies are are

0:22:49called Black Widow works out her issues

0:22:51we don't get a whole lot of Natasha and

0:22:54her ledger balancing but that was a core

0:22:56part of her character introduced and I

0:22:58figured this was more of her

0:22:59balancing especially since she watched

0:23:01came to chocolate I like right in front

0:23:03of her and you have to challenge was

0:23:06like look any side of the winner

0:23:07soldiers on I'm gonna be exactly the

0:23:08opposite side also you know I come from

0:23:11a company country that has these really

0:23:12strict codes and on the other side you

0:23:16have Hawkeye who is pretty much the

0:23:17definition of conditional morality and

0:23:20you know Scott Lang who was established

0:23:22in his own movie is having a moral code

0:23:23that's pretty situation which is I'm

0:23:25gonna I'm gonna stand up for what i

0:23:27think is right even if it costs me you

0:23:29know and then you have Steve who's all

0:23:32know some principles are worth fighting

0:23:34for even if they go against what society

0:23:35doesn't the time so it comes down to

0:23:38people who are much more comfortable

0:23:39with their own definition of morality

0:23:40versus those for like listen we live in

0:23:42a society societies have rules is well

0:23:45in Black Widow during the run of the

0:23:47movie I thought really like I get that

0:23:49she's got this like I'm a reformed bad

0:23:51guy essentially and so i'm i'm sort of

0:23:54trying to be good so I'm trying to stick

0:23:55with the program but i thought yeah but

0:23:57did you not see that the the winter

0:24:00soldier movie you're totally like hey

0:24:03did you not learn anything from the

0:24:04movie you were in and uh and then

0:24:06there's the moment and then I realized

0:24:08oh well that that's why it's like that

0:24:10is so that she has that moment where she

0:24:12lets them go because she actually is you

0:24:15know she's going along but only so far

0:24:18which is which is interesting that that

0:24:20is something that a lot of the people

0:24:22who are with Tony Stark honest and a

0:24:24black panther fits into this to our kind

0:24:26of not in it for his reasons and are not

0:24:30really is committed to it

0:24:32they're just kind of going along also

0:24:34the reason i love that spider-man is so

0:24:36young is holy crap Tony child soldiers

0:24:38really like that and that's something

0:24:41that should be brought up

0:24:42um and I think it it has come up in the

0:24:45comments from time to time to when you

0:24:46have somebody who's genuinely pretty

0:24:47young but you have to look this way Tony

0:24:50Stark had to make his case by leaning on

0:24:51his best friend by appealing to the

0:24:54black widows whole i would just like the

0:24:55group to stay together

0:24:56does it really matter how they get there

0:24:58because that's the question she asked

0:24:59earlier i'm somebody with like a revenge

0:25:01thing going on somebody who has quit

0:25:04with this is often the clouds because

0:25:06made of gems and hand waving and home

0:25:09and a child whom he addresses and throws

0:25:12technology

0:25:12jet and i'm not saying that his site is

0:25:17wrong because i can actually see a lot

0:25:19of Tony's arguments but i do think it's

0:25:23interesting how his life was recruited

0:25:24as opposed to captain america where you

0:25:26know you never were like well this is

0:25:29dumb and terrible and it's gonna end

0:25:30badly but what the heck we lost he

0:25:32really seemed like it was a cult of

0:25:35personality on his side like they were

0:25:37all just like yep well we'll follow him

0:25:38wherever he goes and and yeah I guess I

0:25:41had a little trouble just I i love the

0:25:44moral dilemma that the movie poses but I

0:25:46didn't quite buy like he said everybody

0:25:50on either side of it was almost like

0:25:51they just rolled dice and was like okay

0:25:52we're gonna put you over here and over

0:25:53there because that's going to make the

0:25:54poster look really good

0:25:56if I had I mean if they had kept the

0:25:58thing and I'd never read the comics so I

0:26:00didn't know about the forcing people to

0:26:02reveal their secret identities

0:26:03I feel like that would have made it so

0:26:05much easier for me to buy in to the the

0:26:08idea that captain america was was more

0:26:11sort of on the right side but I do kind

0:26:13of appreciate that the movie it's it's

0:26:16from his perspective it's got his name

0:26:18in the title but I don't think it came

0:26:20down super strongly on either side of

0:26:22the argument I think there are a lot of

0:26:23people that came out of the movie saying

0:26:26steve is a complete dick and he was

0:26:28wrong about this and and you know i'm

0:26:31not going to say either of those any of

0:26:33those people are wrong i just found his

0:26:34scenes mostly really boring because i

0:26:36did not care about Bucky I didn't care

0:26:38about his friendship with Bucky I wished

0:26:40it had been more like an avengers movie

0:26:41because I just wanted to see people you

0:26:43know clipping and bouncing off of each

0:26:45other

0:26:45I just ended up getting kind of bored

0:26:47with the the moral conceit at the middle

0:26:48of the movie how you feel about Bucky

0:26:51also is going to inform how you feel

0:26:53about Steve's stand here because in the

0:26:55end I i would argue that Steve while

0:26:58principled and he says in that

0:27:00conference room scene with Tony early on

0:27:02he needs its really he's doing it for

0:27:05his friend and he knows that his friend

0:27:07or he feels certain that his friend is

0:27:09wrongfully accused and he knows there's

0:27:11gonna be a rush to judgment and he's

0:27:12probably going to get killed and so on

0:27:15one level he's got principles on another

0:27:17level he's just reacting to this what

0:27:20turns out to be a real set up from from

0:27:23Zemo who has has framed him in order to

0:27:25create this this and we'll get 20 mo

0:27:27there's not a lot to say about him he

0:27:29sort of not many there for any reason

0:27:32but other than to start the ball rolling

0:27:34in to stop the ball rolling at the end

0:27:36so but but i do feel like you know one

0:27:39of these things is that it's really all

0:27:40hanging on Steve's relationship with

0:27:42lucky because you know the ultimately

0:27:44that's why he's doing this is to save

0:27:46him whose roots a person is innocent of

0:27:48this one particular crime and wrongfully

0:27:51accused you can't deny the loads of

0:27:54people who just want to see those two

0:27:55beautiful boys kiss

0:27:56I'm glad you said it so I didn't have to

0:28:00that's the thing about the teams though

0:28:02is that you know when you look at Tony's

0:28:04side it's all these people he's sort of

0:28:06recruited or that you know like with

0:28:08Brody best friends right or with the

0:28:11vision that he kind of had waived into

0:28:13existence

0:28:13yeah the vision comes from a computer

0:28:15program that's programmed to serve Tony

0:28:17Stark right and although we depended now

0:28:19you got it yeah i mean he sort of right

0:28:21but he's so too loose and you know

0:28:23spider-man well it's like you know you

0:28:25guys are awesome you guys are

0:28:26superheroes and and oh you mean is

0:28:28really pursued right he's at shuttle

0:28:31that's what thing on the other side you

0:28:35have people who have come together as a

0:28:37team

0:28:38partly because they're defending

0:28:41themselves they're under attack and they

0:28:43know they're not bad people

0:28:44I mean in this you know Bucky whatever

0:28:46but you know you have scarlet witch who

0:28:49wasn't meaning to do anything I mean she

0:28:52was trying to protect that as many

0:28:54people as possible her thing wasn't that

0:28:56she blew up the building

0:28:58it's that you know the guy she was

0:29:00trying to keep from blowing up all the

0:29:02people on the ground is really who blew

0:29:05up the building right you know and and

0:29:08you know and then you have Scott Lang

0:29:09who isn't guilty of anything here until

0:29:13they start acting but you know again

0:29:15he's he understands he gets it right he

0:29:19understands being persecuted and and so

0:29:21these are these are people coming

0:29:23together to fight for their lives

0:29:24whereas on the other side of Tony's team

0:29:27of people who are there to serve Tony

0:29:29which I thought was servin interesting

0:29:31balance but the thing with Natasha

0:29:33turning is she has a background in

0:29:35espionage she knows things are sometimes

0:29:37more calm

0:29:38located in black and white and she's

0:29:40also been persecuted so when she makes

0:29:42that turn and let's camp and Bucky go

0:29:45that's when she's she sort of jumps to

0:29:47the other side with them she gets it

0:29:49which again I thought was an interesting

0:29:51turn in the comics that Spiderman who

0:29:54goes over to the other side as well

0:29:56marine but I mean that there's a certain

0:29:59irony in the US government being worried

0:30:02about collateral damage from conflicts

0:30:04ok no it's just like be you know she ok

0:30:08so scarlet witch killed 12 people and

0:30:12saved 600 or something

0:30:14I'm you know nobody so well I mean cat

0:30:17points as I you know when he's talking

0:30:20too early in the film but yeah it's like

0:30:23nobody so focusing on the fact that they

0:30:25have saved you know the world multiple

0:30:29times right the needs of the many

0:30:30outweigh the exactly it's because she

0:30:33killed big deal people and I hate to

0:30:36sound cynical but there's so much

0:30:37emphasis put on these are what condoms

0:30:40who were killed and the idea being that

0:30:43you know it's kind of a big deal for

0:30:44comments to go outside their border and

0:30:46so one of the questions that is kind of

0:30:49percolating around is what people be

0:30:50that worked up over it if it were you

0:30:52know just a bunch of you know randos

0:30:55from from Lagos what

0:30:59well and that comes back this is one of

0:31:01the reasons i I've heard criticism and

0:31:03read it that the zeros is kind it is a

0:31:06villain or whatever but I think one of

0:31:08the reasons i really enjoyed him and

0:31:10it's not just because I enjoyed the

0:31:11actor but I like how it draws a really

0:31:14clear line with this is how people

0:31:15become radicalized like they lose

0:31:17everything they lose everything they

0:31:19lose their home and it's in the face of

0:31:21seemingly different world and they take

0:31:23a look at her like how am I going to fix

0:31:24this and I was actually kind of thrilled

0:31:28to be frank that they put a white face

0:31:29to wrap a radicalization here like it's

0:31:32just a white european dude who has

0:31:34decided that ok this bunch of

0:31:36super-powered beings lifted up my

0:31:39country blew it to smithereens killed my

0:31:41entire family

0:31:42how do I solve this problem in his

0:31:44answer and frankly he did succeed his

0:31:46answers i'm just gonna have the Avengers

0:31:47take themselves apart

0:31:48boom and

0:31:49story and to me the the radicalization

0:31:53of the character and then these subtle

0:31:54way by which he managed to get

0:31:56everything that he wanted to get done

0:31:58I think it's a pretty quietly powerful

0:32:00thing which is kind of remarkable movie

0:32:03like this which is the wiser a big and

0:32:04dumb and loud and and I mean that in a

0:32:06good way like you know you have a lot of

0:32:08exploring helicopter and then you and

0:32:13you have super soldiers living in the

0:32:14you know sleeping in tanks inside Barry

0:32:16and all the crazy stuff and then you

0:32:17have a guy who the end of the day is you

0:32:19know I just want to get to the point

0:32:20where the Avengers couldn't work

0:32:21together effectively as a team because

0:32:22they can't go through another country in

0:32:24the air and that happened he want team

0:32:26lisa I i have a problem with the way

0:32:29that that the movie is engineered

0:32:31because i don't i don't buy a lot of the

0:32:33yeah i mean the idea that uh no Scarlet

0:32:39Witch is terrible because those people

0:32:40died when you know

0:32:42yeah but she was trying to save them and

0:32:44oh well people some people died in

0:32:45Segovia it's like yeah sorry that

0:32:47although we save millions of people and

0:32:49and ultimately the world some people did

0:32:52die so I guess we're terrible people for

0:32:54doing that I quite honestly I not that

0:32:56couldn't happen i think realistically

0:32:58but the fact that the characters take on

0:33:00that guilt i thought was kind of

0:33:02ludicrous and and i'm gonna i'm going to

0:33:04single out here because talk about a a

0:33:06very good actress who has made some

0:33:08really interesting appearances in as new

0:33:11characters in genre before especially

0:33:14when she brings your little ships in

0:33:16star trek first contact but the offer

0:33:18Woodard a character here I hated it

0:33:21because she's in one scene and all she

0:33:24does is go shame i lost a child shame

0:33:27which is so essentially what Zemo does

0:33:29to which is I'm really angry because my

0:33:31family died and so I'm going to destroy

0:33:33you and I'm sorry I thought it was

0:33:35stupid because and I like the movie a

0:33:37lot but I thought all of these

0:33:39motivations they're just there to set up

0:33:40the action and I i just didn't buy them

0:33:42i did i do not believe that that

0:33:45hey Tony Stark I know you worked really

0:33:47hard to try and save as many people as

0:33:49possible but guess what you're not

0:33:50perfect

0:33:51somebody died so you're a jerk like no

0:33:53you need to be able to say and maybe

0:33:55they're trying to say that i didn't

0:33:56believe for a minute that Tony Stark

0:33:58like took that as that was the straw

0:34:00that broke the camel's back and he's

0:34:01like oh god you're right i just can't do

0:34:03this any

0:34:03or no he's like no this lady is right we

0:34:05are terrible because some people died

0:34:07when we save the entire world like that

0:34:09and so so I don't blame Tony Stark for

0:34:12that I blame the movie for that because

0:34:13I just don't think that it it it follows

0:34:16from there I i can i can see it is as

0:34:18something that is like throwing gasoline

0:34:20on already burning fire where he's just

0:34:23come off of age of Ultron being

0:34:26theoretically responsible for

0:34:28potentially an extinction-level event

0:34:30for the planet and on top of that his

0:34:33girlfriend broke up with him

0:34:35yeah no not enough talk about Ultron

0:34:36actually and I thought that was that was

0:34:38a stronger argument is I wanted that

0:34:40fiery scene where somebody like Tony

0:34:42says hey what I just said right

0:34:44hey we saved almost everybody and we

0:34:46save the entire world and had somebody

0:34:47thrown back into space and said you

0:34:48created the problem it's your fault that

0:34:51it even happened and nobody said wire

0:34:54they're not people marching in the

0:34:56streets why is nobody marching in the

0:34:57streets and demanding him being brought

0:34:59in front of a war crimes trial that's

0:35:01what I don't get that is one of the the

0:35:03the core flaws of like the last two

0:35:05movies is really ok now the crazy robot

0:35:08who looked at the entire country near is

0:35:09vanquished array and like literally

0:35:11nobody has an okay where did the robot

0:35:13come from

0:35:14yeah and if they had had that marching

0:35:16in the streets if they had had more of

0:35:18the stress of breaking up with pepper if

0:35:20they had all those things working on

0:35:22Tony in in the film not in our

0:35:25headcanons then Tony would've been a

0:35:28little bit more coherent in this and the

0:35:31ending would have been working here and

0:35:32I think that this is a case where it's

0:35:35this movie is trying to walk the line

0:35:37between being a movie on its own and

0:35:39being a movie that's just an installment

0:35:41of the Marvel Cinematic Universe so I

0:35:44think they may be tried to downplay all

0:35:46the references to age of Ultron in hopes

0:35:48that it wouldn't clinical confused

0:35:50people who are coming in just seeing

0:35:52this movie or people like me who had

0:35:53almost entirely forgotten HL truck by

0:35:56the time this movie started well but

0:35:57then shouldn't be the sakova Accords

0:35:59right I feel like that's a mistake here

0:36:00is that you can't have like the whole

0:36:02big giant piece of paper that nobody has

0:36:04known about in advance but apparently

0:36:06has been agreed to by everybody in the

0:36:07UN by the way that would never happen

0:36:09everybody should be aware of it all

0:36:10but have and college the copious you're

0:36:12hanging it right on the last avengers

0:36:14movie and and yet so then why do we even

0:36:18have the scene with scarlet witch like

0:36:20you could have hung it on the scene with

0:36:21the Scarlet Witch I suppose right you

0:36:23were irresponsible but instead they're

0:36:24like in like you said Erika they're

0:36:26walking that they're trying to walk that

0:36:28line but i don't think they do a very

0:36:29good job even though they fell off the

0:36:32line

0:36:32totally it's ridiculous because the

0:36:34Scarlet Witch if you take a look at her

0:36:36in combat she she say it like you

0:36:38planned she saves a ton of people on the

0:36:39ground and logos and she stayed safe

0:36:41sleep Rogers life and she's and she's

0:36:43horrified mostly because i think what

0:36:46tends to get lost here is this is a

0:36:48young woman with fairly severe PTSD who

0:36:50grew up in a war zone his brother has

0:36:51been dead for less than a year in

0:36:53another massive battle and who has been

0:36:54thrown back out onto the field as a

0:36:56warrior herself so you've got somebody

0:36:58who has considerable baggage

0:37:00she saved a teammate's life and saves a

0:37:03ton of people and gets casted as a

0:37:04villain in the media and then the second

0:37:06time we see her in battle she actually

0:37:07interferes between the Clint Black Widow

0:37:09thing because she tells me you're

0:37:10pulling your punches and she saves your

0:37:12teammate there to like I get your it

0:37:15irritated me how how she ended up being

0:37:20the the plotlines punching bag when in

0:37:23fact this is somebody who has his simply

0:37:24done nothing wrong and has tried to

0:37:26change the most she's most interesting

0:37:28character in the whole movie and she

0:37:29gets very little to do and she's the one

0:37:31with the big moral flip and Ultron to

0:37:33when she finally realized what was going

0:37:34on she began working against it and

0:37:36cheetah lady she's a lady we don't want

0:37:39to put her give her too much screen time

0:37:40she's been a Tony for her actions for

0:37:43god knows how long this entire arc and I

0:37:45feel like that I feel like that kind of

0:37:46got lost Terrence that was like oh look

0:37:48a hot topic teenager who waved her hands

0:37:50around when that's absolutely not

0:37:51whoo-hoo-hoo they don't want up to be

0:37:53and part of it is you did have a movie

0:37:56that was over stopped with tons and tons

0:37:57of characters so you could give the same

0:38:00time to everybody and you kind of have

0:38:01to grab these context clues and put them

0:38:03together with previous movies like you

0:38:05know Black Widow and her red ledger and

0:38:07so on and so forth but I feel like

0:38:09scarlet witch was really poor was poorly

0:38:11served by the by the plotting here I

0:38:14think that she was well served in a

0:38:15bunch of scenes in this movie though I I

0:38:17think her scene with vision is really

0:38:20interesting and of course if you read

0:38:21the comics i did lean over to my wife

0:38:23during the movie

0:38:23sit there married in the comics right

0:38:26and vision my vision rocking the sweater

0:38:29awesome I think she I think what does

0:38:33does well in that scene I and also i

0:38:35know this is just a mechanical thing but

0:38:37her powers are actually defined in this

0:38:39movie in all age of Ultron is like what

0:38:41does she do I don't know she waves her

0:38:43hands and things happen and we don't

0:38:45really weird and then this one she's

0:38:48like she moves things around she's very

0:38:50telekinetic maybe there's other stuff

0:38:51too but it's like I get I get how she

0:38:53fights I get how she works she can make

0:38:55a tornado

0:38:56okay great right and i think that's

0:38:58better for her to because it you know

0:39:00she's a she's a plot mechanism in most

0:39:03of age of Ultron and here they are at

0:39:05least setting down a few scenes where

0:39:07you get a sense of who she is and how

0:39:09she sort of figuring out like where she

0:39:12fits and I i did i did appreciate that i

0:39:15think one of the things that movie does

0:39:16fairly well is given how many characters

0:39:19there are two service i think it does a

0:39:21pretty decent job of telling some little

0:39:23stories some of the characters get

0:39:25nothing like Hawkeye gets a couple of

0:39:27lines and that's fine

0:39:28our lines in this one he didn't like the

0:39:30last two movies he's been putting

0:39:31together i was actually kind of like

0:39:33surprised that I saw him at home we saw

0:39:35his whole family in age of Ultron right

0:39:37so it's idiot you know here he doesn't

0:39:39we don't need that of of him but I think

0:39:41that some of the other characters got

0:39:43enough and that's what--that's to me why

0:39:45this movie at more than two hours didn't

0:39:48feel like it like some of the movies

0:39:51that are totally overstuffed with heroes

0:39:53and villains we're like we have five

0:39:54villains now and they all it felt more

0:39:57like I don't know because there were so

0:40:00many characters like that they--it's

0:40:02long because they will take their time

0:40:04to tell a little bit about this

0:40:05character and a little bit about that

0:40:06character and which kinda have to do

0:40:08right because this is again more of like

0:40:10a big TV show the only minimalize the

0:40:13villain I did you know they they could

0:40:15bless your movie I suppose would have

0:40:16liked made a huge villain for these two

0:40:18but i suppose the the main thrust of

0:40:20this whole movie is the conflict between

0:40:21the heroes

0:40:22well i like i like that we actually got

0:40:25got wanted Natasha and Sharon Carter

0:40:27able to to be not variations on the same

0:40:30generic female character which is

0:40:33something that

0:40:34has happened a bit in the Marvel movies

0:40:36with the notable exception being thor

0:40:37the dark world which is the reunion for

0:40:39Salima line movie that of all things as

0:40:42four distinct female characters that

0:40:44have more agency and more to do than

0:40:46they do throughout the entire rest of

0:40:48the series and and i think that i think

0:40:50that that Sharon wanted Tasha not having

0:40:53that maybe as much screen time is as

0:40:55even I would have wanted even though i

0:40:58think they're they're decently serve

0:41:00better served than other overstuffed

0:41:02superhero movies with women in them

0:41:04I I you know I feel like that balance is

0:41:07going to change now that I Perlmutter

0:41:09isn't calling the shots over the movies

0:41:11anymore and we can actually have Kevin

0:41:135d saying yeah we definitely want to do

0:41:15a Black Widow movie and not say you know

0:41:18we would love to but and then having to

0:41:20leave an ellipsis on it because you know

0:41:22the guy in charge doesn't want girls

0:41:24toys and doesn't think girl centric

0:41:25movies actually sell I if you like we'll

0:41:29see we'll see the balance move toward

0:41:33actual balance finally and and this is

0:41:36this is kind of the beginning of it is

0:41:38is seeing some equal time given you know

0:41:40i'm i'm i'm assuming that we'll see

0:41:42we'll see some of that come out of and

0:41:44the wasp which I think just added sharon

0:41:48stone to the cast

0:41:49why not is a comparison that your dog

0:41:52was then so does have the the true the

0:41:57true extended Marvel interconnected

0:41:59universe that also includes only you

0:42:01where it may follows tony start all-star

0:42:04flash has a relationship somebody reboot

0:42:11boy says he's doing what what I what I

0:42:15loved about the pacing in this is that

0:42:17it didn't feel like an overstuffed movie

0:42:20to me it felt like when you went to the

0:42:22comic book store and you bought like

0:42:24five or six comics and you sat down and

0:42:26you just binge through all of them it it

0:42:28breaks down into these very nice scenes

0:42:31and set pieces and character moments and

0:42:33it just it felt like i was reading a set

0:42:35of comic books all once in a good way

0:42:38yeah yeah I was just the comic books

0:42:39that I cared the least about where the

0:42:41ones that the movie was titled after and

0:42:43following the good news is if you wait

0:42:44long enough it's like it's like it's

0:42:46like weather

0:42:47wait long enough and you'll just get

0:42:48something else and and in the unity it's

0:42:50like literally if you wait long enough

0:42:52it will come around it's you know not to

0:42:54bring back to Game of Thrones for a

0:42:55second but that is this sort of

0:42:57storytelling right which is we've got

0:42:58seven stories and we're going to tell

0:43:00you a little bit of each and keep

0:43:01rotating among them and they intersect

0:43:04because if there is an overarching story

0:43:06here I'm like Game of Thrones where they

0:43:07almost never intersect right so I I feel

0:43:10like that that's an advantage in a way

0:43:12it's like look at this scene boys you

0:43:13don't worry there's gonna be a scene

0:43:15with you know with black panther coming

0:43:16up and then after that we're gonna we're

0:43:18gonna go to a spider-man and you know

0:43:20it's like all right there's something

0:43:22new coming down the road if the scene

0:43:24boards you if you really don't like the

0:43:26Berlin Airport this is the movie for you

0:43:28it's like life sake i think but yeah

0:43:31whatever its German airports shot in

0:43:33Atlanta apparently confused movie was

0:43:34shot in Atlanta like Germany when I saw

0:43:37this I thought less of the civil war

0:43:38comics because basically they share a

0:43:40name and that's it but there's a series

0:43:44that took place in the late nineties

0:43:46storm watch where the premise was that

0:43:49the United Nations did in fact deploy

0:43:51superhero teams and the problem comes of

0:43:55course when the organization that

0:43:56deploys the team's becomes corrupt and

0:43:58so we've got to cook and will remain

0:44:01with when they went out the saucony

0:44:02accords and you're like yeah you guys

0:44:03will be a team & A panel will decide

0:44:05where to deploy and went to the play

0:44:07would have to play you i was like holy

0:44:09crap this is star much all over again

0:44:11they didn't make the civil war they

0:44:13store watch grant morrison should sue

0:44:15spam it's the UH and that's without the

0:44:20reality thing to which again you know I

0:44:21think yeah try to try to don't look at

0:44:24it too much because the what is the

0:44:27rabbi mean seriously the last captain

0:44:29america told us what happens and the

0:44:31first Avengers movie told us what

0:44:32happens when the group international

0:44:34group is in charge which is they become

0:44:36corrupt and kill everybody

0:44:39so don't know you and nerd and me got

0:44:41distracted by wondering you know exactly

0:44:44because it'd be like America's Got an

0:44:46arms race going on with all their

0:44:48super-powered beings and this movie kind

0:44:51of raises for me but doesn't answer the

0:44:52question

0:44:53so where are all the other metahumans

0:44:54why is the US metahuman go tramping all

0:44:56over the barrel yeah we're not want

0:44:58we're just Putin have some superheroes

0:45:00right well you know we've got so you've

0:45:03got two challahs who is apparently the

0:45:06latest in a long line of people who put

0:45:08on pants suits and protect this

0:45:09reclusive African nation within the MCU

0:45:13itself like one of the things that like

0:45:14the mini bring in the UN and the whole

0:45:16wide world I thought if it's a whole

0:45:17wide world

0:45:18how come it is that the only people who

0:45:20keep making trouble in it are either the

0:45:22adventures for based in the US or any

0:45:24one of a raft of Eastern European

0:45:27villain types who are trying to go up

0:45:28against the Avengers like why have we

0:45:30not seen any action anywhere else in a

0:45:32few what is involved

0:45:33why have we not been subject to a

0:45:37committee where are you sheets you know

0:45:39somebody like Brazil screaming about the

0:45:41superhero ok exactly this kid AT&T is

0:45:45your sense of at least i was i was

0:45:47thinkin like we got something really bad

0:45:48going on in Syria so let's end the

0:45:50Avengers yes we all agree in there and

0:45:52then the Russian person on the Security

0:45:54Council goes no we use our veto here

0:45:56it's like oh sorry can send them when

0:45:58they were gonna win it when they faked

0:46:00us out and made it like they were going

0:46:01to reawaken those five Soviet super

0:46:04soldiers I thought oh my God we're

0:46:05getting the Red Guard and which one of

0:46:07these is gonna turn into a giant bear

0:46:09that was a nice and we're gonna have

0:46:10some major for God's sake I thought that

0:46:12was a nice plot twists and and I guess

0:46:14we should talk about Zemo a little bit

0:46:16we mentioned him a little that his

0:46:17motivation here is revenge because his

0:46:20family was in Segovia and they died and

0:46:22his his goal is not to take over the

0:46:24world bwahahaha or anything like that it

0:46:26is literally just to kind of undercut

0:46:29the superheroes and and make them turn

0:46:31against each other as much as possible

0:46:32and just make life worse for them as

0:46:35much as you can and i really did I you

0:46:38know he's not supposed to be the big

0:46:40villain that the the conflict is between

0:46:41the characters he's just a catalyst more

0:46:44than anything else and a reason to get

0:46:45them on a plane to go where they need to

0:46:47go but i really liked that twist that we

0:46:51are you know we're led down the path of

0:46:53like oh he's this is his game plan he's

0:46:55gonna unearth the old winter soldiers

0:46:57and no no he hates them and think

0:46:59they're dangerous and kill them all

0:47:01I thought that was clever when they have

0:47:03been when they had a flashback of of the

0:47:05five other winter soldiers fighting

0:47:07everyone and I didn't recognize any of

0:47:09the actors

0:47:09they're not gonna be you're not gonna

0:47:11make it to the one that lingered on the

0:47:14one guy and I thought who that guy

0:47:15that's going to be the guy and then it

0:47:17wasn't know their alternate the thing

0:47:19that bothered me was emails plan was so

0:47:21complicated involuted to get all the

0:47:24pieces in the right place to get

0:47:26basically that then they're right at the

0:47:28end to have that fight to get Tony to

0:47:31make a decision to come to Siberia so he

0:47:33could play the video and exactly it was

0:47:35like he had written a whole series of

0:47:37interconnected comic books to lead

0:47:39everybody to well Tony also have a fedex

0:47:41package delivered by Stanley that was

0:47:43probably waiting for him back at his

0:47:44home base with a videotape of the same

0:47:46thing like cover all your bases maybe 40

0:47:48mo yeah what came by UPS is a couple of

0:47:51days late or or if your intelligence

0:47:53agents on kill squad like this dude was

0:47:55like alright one of the lovers you push

0:47:57on these people

0:47:57yeah and it would not be hard to think

0:47:59okay Tony Stark plutocrat has got PTSD

0:48:01from watching people to get blown up

0:48:03saving him then gets held as a prisoner

0:48:06of war and then has survivor guilt from

0:48:08that and then gets turned to saving the

0:48:10world a few more times it seems like

0:48:12it's pretty obvious that Tony Stark at

0:48:14this point could could honestly you like

0:48:16a couple months off and some pretty

0:48:17intensive therapy you know maybe crafts

0:48:20therapy or clear clearly zeros entire

0:48:22plan although he does end up showing him

0:48:24videotape in Siberia is the most plan is

0:48:26really he did everything he does is to

0:48:28get access to the footage of Tony

0:48:32Stark's that parents being killed by by

0:48:34the winter soldier and so ultimately

0:48:36whether it's there somewhere else like

0:48:38I'm kind of serious like he was going to

0:48:40see that footage at some point and and

0:48:42Zemo knows that that is going to put him

0:48:44at at odds with cap and that's what he

0:48:48wants to do that's ultimately that's it

0:48:49really is like I know that this happened

0:48:52so that's going to be the trigger for

0:48:53toning the way the the brainwashing code

0:48:56book is for Bucky wow that's that's

0:48:59gonna rewire his brain as soon as he

0:49:01sees it

0:49:02yep and I did I like the the divergence

0:49:05the divergence from the traditional

0:49:07Baron Zemo

0:49:09the way that he appeared in the comics

0:49:11because we we actually got something

0:49:13that wasn't effectively you know the red

0:49:16skull in a pink jumpsuit

0:49:17yeah yeah little another superb not

0:49:19interesting supervillain yeah well i

0:49:21don't know i think progressive reinstall

0:49:22super interesting I I did live at the

0:49:25end that that it wasn't you killed my

0:49:27parents

0:49:28it's he killed my mom right that's what

0:49:31it is it's not it's not about Howard

0:49:33it's about his mom

0:49:34yeah that's true too that's that that's

0:49:36true they have everybody thinks feel of

0:49:38a having uh super super young route

0:49:41Robert Downey jr. at the beginning of

0:49:43the movie I dont still weird how

0:49:45increasing you're wrong i thought it was

0:49:48slightly it was better than you know

0:49:50that the sort of tron legacy type people

0:49:54and I thought it was a bit better maybe

0:49:57then the the ant-man stuff but it just I

0:50:02don't know there's something about it i

0:50:04mean it is the uncanny valley thing it

0:50:06is just that was all I liked it but they

0:50:09did have give themselves an outright

0:50:10which is like oh but this is actually

0:50:12just a hologram or something that he's

0:50:14showing on in his head talk i was

0:50:16waiting for the rest of the cast of less

0:50:17than 0 and back to school to come

0:50:19bouncing into it it's not fair by the

0:50:21way using Holograms in your TED talk

0:50:22totally not fair to the other presenters

0:50:25president ted talk it was an MIT talk

0:50:27what I'd be curious about is how

0:50:29somebody who did not actually watch

0:50:31Robert Downey jr. on screen when he was

0:50:33in their twenties like how they regarded

0:50:35this and reflected this because when my

0:50:38fourteen-year-old went bananas for it

0:50:39will see this is the thing is because

0:50:41when I want the whole time I was

0:50:42watching and I was trying to figure out

0:50:43where they're going like I was like did

0:50:45they based the footage off of home for

0:50:46the holidays so they base it off of one

0:50:48of the early nineties movies i was

0:50:50trying to figure out where they were

0:50:51they were they pulled the library of

0:50:53composite images because i remember

0:50:55seeing Robert Downey jr. in theaters at

0:50:57that age and I thought well if I didn't

0:50:59know any of this if I if I were 20 years

0:51:02younger with this it differently on my

0:51:05eyes like it's only weird to me because

0:51:07I remember him as a younger person you

0:51:10know and i think that's a question that

0:51:11probably asking a lot next year and one

0:51:14thing that was interesting is comparing

0:51:16this to aunt and last year with a man

0:51:19now you know Michael Douglas acting for

0:51:22years and all that

0:51:23when when young Michael Douglas walked

0:51:25in almost the entire room gasps yeah oh

0:51:28yeah and and with this

0:51:31not much of a reaction and it was it was

0:51:33still you know full of adults so it's

0:51:35not like it was just kids it wasn't you

0:51:36know but it was just sort of like of

0:51:38course Tony Stark would have young Tony

0:51:40Stark yeah sure

0:51:41so so when it with his TED talk thing

0:51:43will not talk

0:51:45he's he's got this like what was it

0:51:49so he had these glasses which seemed to

0:51:51be reading his mind to project has seen

0:51:55on to a pre existing template of like

0:51:58mapped piano and various other things on

0:52:01the set and he said and it's a device

0:52:04for hijacking the hippocampus to clear

0:52:07traumatic memories and I thought all

0:52:09he's built this you know

0:52:10hundred-million-dollar device for our

0:52:13that will help with traumatic memories

0:52:15that we perfect for Bucky later this all

0:52:18definitely hundred percent come on and

0:52:20then they just didn't mention it at all

0:52:22and it wasn't clear what it was whether

0:52:24he was just like he just wanted to see

0:52:27what this scene and make a fake version

0:52:29in the holiday so that you don't you

0:52:31know it was check archives dead parents

0:52:33space wrong yeah i mean it was I thought

0:52:37it was clear that the winter soldier had

0:52:39killed his parents from like the first

0:52:41or second scene i agree

0:52:43ok I wasn't a huge surprise on that on

0:52:46that topic winded captain america find

0:52:48out about this because he knows exactly

0:52:49Tony can transfer about it he said he

0:52:52didn't know he knew that I think he was

0:52:54implying that he knew that his parents

0:52:55had been killed and it wasn't an

0:52:57accident and hydros responsible but he

0:52:59didn't know it was Bucky at that point

0:53:01until he found out and yeah you probably

0:53:03didn't want to tell Tony because you

0:53:07don't want to find out who your parents

0:53:08were murdered by Hydra can we talk about

0:53:10the new characters are I want to talk

0:53:12about spider-man but why don't we start

0:53:13with a black panther when people think

0:53:15of of the Black Panther who we we see

0:53:18for the first time here and he sees

0:53:19getting a movie but chadwick boseman as

0:53:22to Charlie the king of Wakanda one of my

0:53:25one of my favorite comic series that got

0:53:27me back into comics in high school was

0:53:28the Black Panther run written by

0:53:30Christopher priest a priest a Cajun

0:53:33Owsley

0:53:34and the the feel of of two challenges

0:53:38Chaka and the whole Black Panther

0:53:41portion of the Marvel Universe feels

0:53:43like it is very brilliantly taken

0:53:46directly from from from from that is

0:53:49inspiration down to everyday Ross's a

0:53:51little bit different

0:53:52maybe a little bit different but but the

0:53:54child himself

0:53:55it just it showed up on the screen right

0:53:58off the page using the best materials

0:54:01available

0:54:01I couldn't be more happy that i liked it

0:54:04I liked everything about that the only

0:54:05thing that bothered me slightly was the

0:54:07like that the little musical sting that

0:54:09they used the kind of let me to pan

0:54:11flute noise like yeah we get it he's

0:54:14like the way he's from Africa

0:54:15yes African we were just like a point

0:54:17this out with the music in case you

0:54:19haven't picked up on the the sort of

0:54:21mystical African nature of it was being

0:54:24pushed a bit hard but i'm not going over

0:54:26the comics I don't know how whether they

0:54:30were just pulling that straight from the

0:54:31page but it was just that one musical

0:54:33note really was the entire thing that

0:54:34bothered me

0:54:35yeah i also have not read any of the

0:54:37comics but now i am very interested in

0:54:40this character so how how it you know

0:54:42however faithful they were our warranty

0:54:43i thought it really worked on the screen

0:54:45I thought Bozeman's performance was was

0:54:47fantastic and yeah I'm interested in

0:54:50seeing where this character goes

0:54:51David you said like make the movie now

0:54:53right insights on it's not for two years

0:54:55i think that the Black Panther movie

0:54:57comes out

0:54:58nope and I wanted this weekend I'm ready

0:55:00yeah I thought he was great I thought I

0:55:02thought chadwick boseman performance is

0:55:04fantastic i love that we see him first

0:55:07you know we first we see him as the

0:55:08prince in relation to his father

0:55:10we-we-we see that he is a you know he's

0:55:13a formidable person and then we're like

0:55:16oh and he has a cat costume with the

0:55:19vibranium claws and he runs around it's

0:55:21like I like that sequence of of like

0:55:24getting to know who he was and as a

0:55:25longtime comic reader i'm familiar with

0:55:27the character but i also really enjoyed

0:55:28my family especially my think my son

0:55:32probably knew but but my wife and my

0:55:35daughter didn't know and they were like

0:55:36he's awesome who is that what is that

0:55:38who is that guy right and and and i

0:55:41think a lot of audience members are like

0:55:42Erica to where it's like I don't know

0:55:44anything about this guy but he seems

0:55:46really great right i mean like you can

0:55:47see him being having his own movie it

0:55:49doesn't it's not one of those to try a

0:55:51little harder it's like no I want to see

0:55:53that movie with that guy

0:55:54yeah well there's no box checking about

0:55:56a 2 you've got you've got him as a

0:55:58different presence as a black superhero

0:56:00in addition to falcon in addition to war

0:56:03machine and it doesn't feel like like

0:56:08affirmative action move

0:56:09I you know something that I i see in

0:56:12movies where they're like by the way

0:56:14let's hang a lantern on this and let's

0:56:15be proud of how progressive we are this

0:56:17is a character that deserves to be in

0:56:19the movie because he's a character that

0:56:20deserves to be in the movie

0:56:22yeah I like that there were three black

0:56:23superheroes in the lineup yep yep i also

0:56:26want to see an entire movie about about

0:56:28to challenge that I don't know if she

0:56:30was his security person already got I

0:56:32thought it was exactly like home and

0:56:34just amazing that the one susong of of

0:56:38Black Panther nerding out that I'll do

0:56:40here is that woman is part of a group of

0:56:42our honor guards called the door in

0:56:45lingerie the adored ones that she

0:56:47ritualistically shave their heads and

0:56:49are are are exactly the type of people

0:56:52that you you really want that scene

0:56:54where they they have it they go

0:56:56toe-to-toe with the with black widow

0:56:58because they're absolute badasses so he

0:57:01basically has a team of wonder women

0:57:03that following around and make sure that

0:57:05he's safe

0:57:06I want that movie and Martin Freeman is

0:57:08playing a character who has connections

0:57:10to Black Panther right yeah he's kind of

0:57:12like like it like a UN Special Envoy

0:57:14bureaucrat jerk who's kind of a dip but

0:57:18is entertaining and and and fun as as as

0:57:22the personification of bureaucratic

0:57:24around six over the place for

0:57:25congratulations Martin Freeman you are

0:57:27the bureaucrats also so Ben when the

0:57:30chatroom pointed out and David also

0:57:31found in a briefing by alan sepinwall

0:57:33the scene in at the end of winter

0:57:35soldier where they're in the bunker with

0:57:37the computer of armed with Zola strongly

0:57:39suggest that Heydrich was responsible

0:57:41for the Starks dying and data record if

0:57:45not Bucky that's yeah that's what I

0:57:47thought it was clear the second movie

0:57:48that's that's what we're going to need

0:57:51that in winter soldier so so I'd I just

0:57:54forgotten that that was there and that's

0:57:56an example where there's a callback that

0:57:57everybody's like oh how did he know that

0:57:59the answer is it

0:58:00it's in another movie that you probably

0:58:02saw and just don't remember that scene

0:58:04words that asterisk saying go see issue

0:58:07yeah metalware Toby Jones says at

0:58:09accidents can happen or whatever is

0:58:11gonna happen in the computer didn't I

0:58:15can't wait to be a cybernetic robust

0:58:18with no head

0:58:19beep boop actually Jason that brings me

0:58:23back to be we mentioned you know do you

0:58:25have to see all of them and that kind of

0:58:27thing

0:58:27my wife has not seen the second captain

0:58:29america the second Avengers i think the

0:58:32most recent one

0:58:33she hasn't seen Thor to it hasn't even

0:58:35seen for one she's very few of the

0:58:36Marvel movies overall the most recent

0:58:38one she's always a man she enjoyed that

0:58:40and I'm actually really eager to take

0:58:42her to see this just to see if it bores

0:58:45the crap out of her or if it actually

0:58:47works pretty well on its own as a

0:58:49standalone thing because she's I mean

0:58:51she's energy stuff it's not like you

0:58:53know we don't have a bunch of Jurassic

0:58:54Park posters all over her living room

0:58:55but but I you know I really do wonder

0:58:58about things like that gasp where its

0:59:01people who maybe weren't paying

0:59:02attention to and watching movies three

0:59:04times each or maybe missed one along the

0:59:07way who didn't pick up on something I I

0:59:10I want to feel like this movie did a

0:59:13good enough job of introducing people

0:59:14who maybe maybe somebody doesn't know a

0:59:17particular character who's already been

0:59:19introduced name but they're able to pick

0:59:21up on what the relationship is with

0:59:23different characters because they do

0:59:25they do like a micro recap page with

0:59:27everybody where we get you know the clip

0:59:30saucony the clips from this the clips

0:59:31from this the this is where my life is I

0:59:34broke up with my girlfriend you know I'm

0:59:35looking for my friend and i was in World

0:59:37War two

0:59:37what we get we get a little bit of that

0:59:39stuff and I wonder if it's if it's

0:59:41helpful or if it's overwhelming

0:59:42I I thought they did a good job I mean

0:59:45obviously I've seen all the movies up to

0:59:46this point but yeah so I've got the

0:59:48background for these things but i think

0:59:49it I think it did a good enough job of

0:59:52do I mean I not perfect I mean if you're

0:59:55totally in the dark

0:59:56I love that they gave us they gave the

0:59:58audience credit of like what

0:59:58audience credit of like what

1:00:00think you'll be able to follow this but

1:00:01we're not going to do is say say oh your

1:00:04parents and then I like a

1:00:06black-and-white flashback scene with a

1:00:08backseat from a previous movie which I

1:00:11TV does a lot

1:00:12it's like now you know look either you

1:00:14do remember it or you'll go with it and

1:00:16we're just gonna move on and that this

1:00:18movie would have been just terrible if

1:00:20we had to keep on doing that I would

1:00:22love a footnote version though I think

1:00:24that would be hilarious

1:00:25yeah pop-up marvel cinematic universe

1:00:27that would be good that would be that

1:00:30would be really good

1:00:31um so spider-man can we can we talk i'm

1:00:34gonna let everybody else go first on

1:00:35spider-man and James gonna ruin it all

1:00:39at the end so what people think about

1:00:40the about spider-man week I think he

1:00:43does whatever a spider can

1:00:44it's true it is his website he was

1:00:47spinning they were of many sizes perhaps

1:00:49all the sizes he captured so we see Tony

1:00:54Stark shows up at peter parker's house

1:00:55and manage more is Marisa Tomei and may

1:00:58just keep getting younger and younger I

1:00:59just I just want to say he and aunt Mae

1:01:02are both the same age and he's playing

1:01:05like our favorite superhero and she's a

1:01:08super heroes and yeah that's depressing

1:01:11he's weirded out by how she's attractive

1:01:13at that age come on Tony Stark the same

1:01:16although although Tony Stark is kind of

1:01:17a pig is so i kinda get it and you know

1:01:20Aunt May and maybe being you think about

1:01:22it this way to she's peters and which

1:01:24means all she really needs to be is old

1:01:26enough to be his mom and P if Peter

1:01:28Parker's 15 then it's not reasonable

1:01:30that also means get Tony Stark's old

1:01:32enough to be his dad I think tony stark

1:01:34would never want to would admit to that

1:01:35right and he thinks of himself as much

1:01:38cooler and younger than that but you

1:01:40know he's not maybe he's cooler

1:01:42he's just not you know cinema instead of

1:01:44already robert w jr played the dad of

1:01:47i'm liking the actress but she pleased

1:01:49are seen before movies but what is her

1:01:52name

1:01:52kat dennings yeah there's a movie with

1:01:55Robert Downey jr. plays your dad about a

1:01:57father-daughter relationship so there's

1:02:00there's already like he's always seemed

1:02:02like the dad of the MCU to be precisely

1:02:04because he does carry himself like a

1:02:06dude who's in his mid-forties

1:02:07don't-don't-don't is 51 if if if he will

1:02:11if he was the father of Peter Parker

1:02:13he'd be an old dad ok and not even be

1:02:17it's like he's he's he's probably old

1:02:19enough to be his grandfather so I what

1:02:22I'm saying is let's let side but it's

1:02:25great it's great to see Marisa Tomei and

1:02:26may I i kind of am at liking how that

1:02:29the enemy is getting younger because I'm

1:02:31it does not have to be a very elderly

1:02:33person in fact it kinda doesn't make

1:02:35sense for her to be sickly and elderly

1:02:36accepting the comics where they've had

1:02:38Peter grow well Peter I've follow my

1:02:40heart

1:02:41oh I like the idea that i like it then

1:02:43the MCU like she ended up being Peters

1:02:45guardian and very young age after his

1:02:47parents were killed in an accident she

1:02:49never met uncle been so there isn't that

1:02:50guilt and Peter to become a superhero

1:02:52because he he grew up in an era where

1:02:55the Avengers you know where we're

1:02:57running grandpa's the streets when he

1:02:58was nine or ten and he's like I'm gonna

1:03:00do that it's the same reason people

1:03:02enlisted after nine eleven i'm sorry i'm

1:03:04still going to advocate for Ben Parker

1:03:06being played by jason alexander because

1:03:07that means every everyone saying I it

1:03:11means getting younger all the actresses

1:03:12playing at me you're getting younger

1:03:14well spider-man is much younger in this

1:03:16so it's okay exactly and I sense i would

1:03:19say i'm also I i think it's jarring for

1:03:22people who are used to the spider-man

1:03:23movies to think of spider-man is a kid

1:03:25instead of as a a you know basically an

1:03:28adult but when I'm your oldest Christian

1:03:30historically that that you know he

1:03:33started out as as this kid with powers

1:03:35and I think in the in the ultimate

1:03:39spider-man stories which are my favorite

1:03:41that this is exactly the dynamic which

1:03:44is there are a whole bunch of grown-ups

1:03:45superheroes and then there's this kid

1:03:47who spider-man and its kind of

1:03:49delightful so i like i like that that's

1:03:51what the dynamic is but i think that

1:03:53works well in the in the comics but you

1:03:56know in in these films with you know the

1:03:58idea of young we've had is like Wanda

1:04:00and elizabeth Olsen is 27 and she's

1:04:03playing you know late teens early

1:04:05twenties and Tom Holland is 19 but it

1:04:08looks about you know 13 ya termine stand

1:04:11and seeing that the the contrast between

1:04:14him and you know particularly Robert

1:04:16Downey jr. when Robert Downey jr. is

1:04:19bringing him into

1:04:20the fold and all this it just feels so

1:04:23wrong and child soldiers as well I wrote

1:04:25that in my notes as well it is it's not

1:04:28very clearly the tony is exploiting this

1:04:30kid I mean it's totally that's what's

1:04:32happening yeah i mean that the thought

1:04:34of that tight and a little bit i think i

1:04:37thought was kind of pulling his punches

1:04:38to when he fights with spider-man he's

1:04:40like look I don't know if you know this

1:04:41but there's not this much clipping and I

1:04:44might like I think he swings early on

1:04:47that he's fighting against the kid

1:04:48because you look at how the people on

1:04:50team captain deal with spider-man and

1:04:52it's mostly let's keep him contained and

1:04:54let's keep it while it's not doing

1:04:55serious damage and i'm pretty sure part

1:04:57of that is holy crap this is a kid

1:04:59yeah one and and steve has our

1:05:01conversation with him at the end of

1:05:03their fighting to you by thing when you

1:05:05see it as a photorealistic thing that

1:05:07it's sort of triggers different parts of

1:05:09your brain or the did for me anyway I

1:05:12really enjoyed watching him in the end

1:05:14but the way that he sort of bounced off

1:05:17the other characters was it was a little

1:05:19difficult for me because i would i would

1:05:20like to watch the Tom Holland spider-man

1:05:22movie I just felt like he was in a

1:05:24different movie and not in this one

1:05:26yeah and and you know that was the same

1:05:28to a certain extent with with ant-man

1:05:31but it wasn't quite as stark of a

1:05:34difference

1:05:35no star and because it is I felt like I

1:05:40felt like ant-man was a character who

1:05:41was visiting this movie from somewhere

1:05:43else and I felt like Spiderman was

1:05:44character who was just in his own movie

1:05:46and somehow we're seeing it through the

1:05:48lens of this film and it's stupid kids

1:05:50enjoyed it very much but it pulled me

1:05:51out of this movie every time it happened

1:05:53yeah if you would've told me that if you

1:05:55would have told me that they shot all of

1:05:57spider-man and Tony Stark scenes after

1:05:59they wrapped production on this movie I

1:06:00would've believed it because they just

1:06:01felt like they just jumped this this

1:06:03this new bits of scenes it's almost like

1:06:06you know when Suzanne Somers was holding

1:06:08out from Three's Company and that's what

1:06:10I had a phone in once a week to do is ok

1:06:13I've you gonna take in spider-man out of

1:06:16this film and it would've made a

1:06:17difference so on our production on a

1:06:20production note they bolted they bolted

1:06:22spider-man into the movie before they

1:06:24had the bones of the movie put together

1:06:26so I very much see that point for me

1:06:28what I feel like the movie benefited

1:06:30from by having

1:06:31this complete other movie complete other

1:06:33sensibility just kind of crash the party

1:06:35as it were is that where where the

1:06:38Marvel movies and I don't want to make

1:06:40this about a comparison of batman vs

1:06:41superman because i get enough people

1:06:43threatening to shoot me or whatever

1:06:45because i have a particular opinion but

1:06:49where the movie can go just nothing but

1:06:51green dark green dark green dark like in

1:06:54some ways the comic did you have

1:06:56spider-man ant-man both swing in and it

1:06:58kind of bring that levy brings the sense

1:07:01of you know this whole conflict is kind

1:07:03of ridiculous yeah and you got you

1:07:04Avengers are farmers and ya have it

1:07:07being a hero is not always just as sad

1:07:10as you guys make it seem to be I i agree

1:07:12like I liked ant-man for that but

1:07:14Spiderman was maybe a bridge too far

1:07:16CII love spider-man and living living

1:07:19with the smartest fourteen-year-old I

1:07:21was like oh that really sounds like a

1:07:23smart as fourteen-year-old yeah like the

1:07:25line where he goes that really old movie

1:07:27The Empire Strikes Back if it just been

1:07:29should have just been that old movie

1:07:32that would not have been plausible but

1:07:34as smart as 14 year old has has done

1:07:36that joke to me all the time yeah but

1:07:38you know that smartass support

1:07:40ten-year-old he's not brand-new with all

1:07:42these people that that are you know huge

1:07:44sort of stars to him and fight he's

1:07:46fighting possibly literally for his life

1:07:48I just if they would have left out the

1:07:50word really i would have been fine with

1:07:51it but instead that seems like a

1:07:53splinter in my brain and body and how

1:07:55much i just i don't think it would have

1:07:56been possible without it the reason that

1:07:58bothered me was I'm i was i was thinking

1:08:02oh yeah disney own style which is

1:08:05exactly what Arizona references is is

1:08:07like in the most recent there was the

1:08:09episode of the flash what he's

1:08:11referencing harry pottah was like oh

1:08:13yeah they're both warner brothers

1:08:14properties now

1:08:15yeah okay so I i like the spider-man

1:08:17spider-man's my favorite superhero and i

1:08:18liked it i don't disagree that it is not

1:08:21necessary for the movie I i do like the

1:08:24lightness of it I i like is it an ad for

1:08:27the reboot of spider-man next year

1:08:30sure it is but I'll tell you this it was

1:08:33a heck of an ad so I I didn't mind it at

1:08:36all

1:08:37i realized that i am a i was actually a

1:08:40little worried because the trailer

1:08:42didn't really inspire me in terms of how

1:08:44he drops

1:08:45and in there but seeing these scenes

1:08:47with Tom Holland I was like I really

1:08:48like this take on spider-man and I like

1:08:50how he you know how he looks in the end

1:08:53the fight scenes and I and being that

1:08:55that mouthy a smartass kid which i think

1:08:58is who spider-man should be so tonight

1:09:01if I CIA and I'm coming at this from not

1:09:04having actually read spider-man comics

1:09:06and only vaguely remembering the other

1:09:07movies and from his earlier scenes I

1:09:10didn't really get the smartass kid I got

1:09:12this sort of like bewildered kid that

1:09:14was like oh my god what is happening

1:09:15this is this is really cool I i read him

1:09:18is sort of enthusiastic and and you know

1:09:20not old but I didn't read him his mouth

1:09:22again sarcastic which is why those that

1:09:24line came out of nowhere for me he put

1:09:26on the mask and then all of a sudden he

1:09:27gets to he gets to overcompensate and

1:09:30feel like he's one of the grown-ups yeah

1:09:32yeah see I wish I would have gotten that

1:09:34from there but no he might be totally

1:09:36reminded me of them my my niece and

1:09:38several the girls that I used used to be

1:09:40a girl scout trip and they were tiny

1:09:42their high school seniors now I'm

1:09:43sunrise sunset and when they all started

1:09:47doing high school drama

1:09:48what was interesting to me was how

1:09:50effortlessly the code switch between who

1:09:53they were when they were in class

1:09:54whether they were like the the soccer

1:09:56kid or the band geek or whatever to who

1:09:59they were the minute they were in drama

1:10:01club and putting on these these for

1:10:03these roles on stage and it's kind of a

1:10:05kick to see one kid go from being this

1:10:08this some very quiet rules following you

1:10:13know front row student to playing this

1:10:15hand again as a a gleefully over-the-top

1:10:17busy woman on the make and that was kind

1:10:20of my impression with Peter Parker as

1:10:22spider-man 2 is I feel like his bravado

1:10:25was kind of him getting a chance to be

1:10:28who he thinks he is inside and it may

1:10:30have also been a little bit of

1:10:31adolescent protective coloration because

1:10:34you know once he starts fighting he

1:10:37knows he knows what he's capable of but

1:10:38there's also a level of holy crap up

1:10:40against ground to do this for a living

1:10:42and so I thought a lot of his running

1:10:44off his mouth was was part enthusiasm

1:10:46and part look at me look look look at me

1:10:48look at my peers are wow this is my

1:10:51heart nervous energy booth and maybe

1:10:54headcanon but you know which is why I'm

1:10:56looking forward to a spider-man movie

1:10:57because all of these things you guys are

1:10:58saying i'm making me not and go oh yeah

1:11:00that makes sense but they just didn't

1:11:01have time to build that all in and you

1:11:04know i'm old i don't know what that

1:11:05stuff i need ya help me

1:11:07yeah well that was my complete with most

1:11:08of the characters to you have to kind of

1:11:10either you have to bring in a whole lot

1:11:11of stuff like you know the black ones

1:11:13motivations can be explained with like

1:11:14three different scenes across three

1:11:15different movies but unless you remember

1:11:17those seams and you took an active

1:11:18interest in a character you're not going

1:11:19to taking taking as much of my headcanon

1:11:22helmet off as i can for me it's very

1:11:25much that acting out of a second persona

1:11:27where he's not the kid in in sweatpants

1:11:30and a homemade mask and goggles grabbing

1:11:34people out of the way of a car he's

1:11:36getting to play with the big kids and be

1:11:38with cool great uncle tony not Uncle

1:11:41Tony great uncle tony didn't open it and

1:11:45all the superheroes he seen on tv and

1:11:47holy crap oh man i'm up to this level

1:11:50and and it's it's just teenage over

1:11:52compensating to me the the thing that

1:11:54may be slightly uncomfortable and that

1:11:55was when you know and he's fighting with

1:11:59Captain America and he's like oh yeah

1:12:02Tony said you were going to say that and

1:12:03and you know he feels a bit not quite

1:12:06brainwashed but you know he's been

1:12:08clearly because you know tote Tony's

1:12:11giving him the city's giving ya off ya

1:12:13know is your sugar daddy and he said you

1:12:15up to this no I think that's all there

1:12:17and I think they do take a light hand

1:12:18with him and I think Steve talking to

1:12:20him the end is important and I think

1:12:21also it says something about Tony where

1:12:23he's like you're done right like he he's

1:12:26not gonna whether that's him rethinking

1:12:29order was like this the the action in

1:12:30the movie you're going to go on and yes

1:12:31i know they only have a minute so many

1:12:33scenes because he's got to go back into

1:12:35his own movie but I did like him saying

1:12:36kid you're you're done you know one

1:12:38maybe there's some regret their that he

1:12:40was even brought into this one another

1:12:42thing the difference between him as

1:12:44themselves and him in the suit is

1:12:46remember when he's first talking with

1:12:48Tony he talks about you know why do you

1:12:50want to have the dark goggles can you

1:12:51even see out of those things like it

1:12:52because my eyes are much more sensitive

1:12:55now I'm even more easily distracted and

1:12:58so when he's got the sudan he's more

1:13:00focused too hehe doesn't have the same

1:13:02kind of sensory input and the same sort

1:13:04of overload that he has

1:13:06as a regular teenage kid what I liked in

1:13:09this versus the other movies is that he

1:13:11was clearly very smart and you know he's

1:13:15Tony's like who who made your your web

1:13:17shooters or that kind of stuff and he's

1:13:20like well i did and you know he's

1:13:23obviously being set up to be you know

1:13:25maybe as smart as tony is down the line

1:13:29yeah yeah this is the first spider-man

1:13:31as much as I enjoyed to acquire this is

1:13:33the first time a spider man in film felt

1:13:36like spider-man to me yes we do i feel

1:13:38like the amazing spider-man Peter Parker

1:13:42was good but this this is the this is

1:13:47the closest the the both of the

1:13:50character I didn't I dig the

1:13:52characterization and my my thing which

1:13:54extends to you know I i love that we had

1:13:57three black superheroes that was great

1:13:58it be wonderful if Marvel knew that that

1:14:02latinos were perfectly willing to be

1:14:04superheroes as well

1:14:06asians also also work for that is we

1:14:08have lots of white ppl plantation

1:14:09superheroes with us buddy talking to and

1:14:11what yeah you know my thing my thing is

1:14:15you know with with the casting

1:14:16spider-man I i wish that they would have

1:14:18been comfortable even going biracial and

1:14:21not and i'm not saying oh they should

1:14:23use Miles Morales there are plenty of

1:14:24people who are advocating for that but I

1:14:27don't know if you just want to go with

1:14:28realism I if you look at queens today

1:14:30it's not it's not it's not very white

1:14:33not in the first place so that's just

1:14:36that's something that we we have had i

1:14:40think literally a dozen white Peter

1:14:42Parker's in live-action cartoons and we

1:14:45we could have we could have at least

1:14:46gone a little less white than the

1:14:50English wait not to be racist against

1:14:53the English

1:14:53I mean we'll have another rebate in five

1:14:55years of something yeah absolutely

1:14:56weight of the character of color we

1:14:59wouldn't need to reboot it so gosh darn

1:15:00it

1:15:01and while my hope is that given that the

1:15:04MCU keeps on stressing on into infinity

1:15:06that at some point Miles Morales is

1:15:08gonna come into this anyway which i'm ok

1:15:11with because i love that character too

1:15:13so I just kind of hoping that i was at

1:15:15one of the reasons i was excited about

1:15:16this very young spider-man is happily

1:15:18this opens the door for Kamala Khan yeah

1:15:20I mean such as your recruiting children

1:15:23to fight your battles now you may as

1:15:25well I cross gmail across the river to

1:15:28start its truest crime is his use of

1:15:31children as superheroes i love it it's

1:15:34so is and i'm wrong here's a question

1:15:36but that's bugging me since the first

1:15:38trailer came out and I've seen it

1:15:40cropping up more and more in the last

1:15:41week or so when Tony goes yo underoos so

1:15:47that means that underoos exist in the

1:15:49marvel cinematic universe is on them

1:15:52who's on them I pirate hat man and

1:15:54superman thank you and your personal Mii

1:15:57characters starting soon haha Star Wars

1:16:00characters

1:16:01yeah that's it we know that the in front

1:16:03of a really old movie so let's detail

1:16:05the two things that uh that I shouted

1:16:07John syracuse add me when I watch this

1:16:09movie one of them is that you know that

1:16:11apparently Peter like dumpster-dives and

1:16:13finds old Max or or goes to goes to a

1:16:16like a flea markets and finds old Max

1:16:19and fixes them up and mess around with

1:16:21its not smart enough to realize he could

1:16:22probably sell that thing for some decent

1:16:24coin that he will I think that maybe as

1:16:26part of his a little side business that

1:16:28we're going to learn about so that was a

1:16:30nice like classic Mac shoutout for John

1:16:32Syracuse and then of course the Empire

1:16:33Strikes Back reference which we can we

1:16:35can can and have debated whether that

1:16:37was a that was a little too much of the

1:16:39a really old movie but I thought that

1:16:43was a fun i thought it was a fun

1:16:44shorthand because everybody gets what

1:16:46they're saying they're about here's how

1:16:48we turned out here's how we get giant

1:16:49man to fall which was really nice and of

1:16:51course John siracusa interest rates back

1:16:53it's one of his favorite movie so so if

1:16:55he's not understand there is spider-man

1:16:57is around 14 then the Empire Strikes

1:16:59Back was over 20 years old before he was

1:17:02born

1:17:02yeah oh yeah so for him it is really old

1:17:04the art the argument I i think is that

1:17:06Erica thinks that was a little too far

1:17:08and David thinks that is exactly

1:17:10smart-assed enough for him so well I i

1:17:12completely agree i think i think that it

1:17:14was

1:17:15it was it was a battle tactic as much as

1:17:17it was him just being himself

1:17:18ok so we've got a little bit of time

1:17:21left and so my question before we go

1:17:23around and just add to a final overview

1:17:25of how everybody would rate this movie

1:17:27anything we should cover that we haven't

1:17:28I feel like we could all lot of ground

1:17:30here

1:17:30yeah we've covered at least seven

1:17:33stories sure one of the things i was

1:17:35told is that there are many many

1:17:38inconsistencies in all the German and

1:17:41uses of general i'm sure doing there

1:17:43the GSG 9 is German special forces that

1:17:46should have been the Austrian Special

1:17:47Forces and lots of James Murray into a

1:17:50German

1:17:50that's his secret a secret consultant on

1:17:54this who was just fuming about all these

1:17:57all these references so i have to be

1:18:00contractually good that's good i wanted

1:18:02to mention John Don Cheadle as ro/di

1:18:05interesting thing he does get he does

1:18:07get hurt although they show that Tony is

1:18:09like making him sort of a walking legs a

1:18:11walking suit at the end that's when we

1:18:13get the Tony stank line

1:18:15I like Don Cheadle uh it's funded that

1:18:18he still in these movies because thats

1:18:20like a character that they could have

1:18:21just ignored and it's nice to have a

1:18:23minute as another one

1:18:25I don't know if people saw the twitter

1:18:26exchange that he did I think yesterday

1:18:27where somebody asked why war machine

1:18:29doesn't have a little snarky Irish AI in

1:18:32his suit and he says I think you know

1:18:36the reason and somebody said what

1:18:38because Tony wants to keep all the good

1:18:39tech to himself and Don Cheadle's

1:18:41response was well I was gonna say racism

1:18:42but ok I love you but it was good to see

1:18:48him it was good to see him in the in the

1:18:50movie because I again I i think that's a

1:18:52fun character to have have a second you

1:18:54Iron Man suit and and that they didn't

1:18:56forget about him so and then he gets a

1:18:58little tiny very tiny story arc very

1:19:01tiny I was quite surprised they didn't

1:19:02kill him because me to this Fame seem to

1:19:05be setting up that somebody was gonna

1:19:06die okay so I'm gonna give a spoiler for

1:19:08the comic of Civil War and some of the

1:19:10spin-offs at the comic of civil war but

1:19:12i have to say my biggest surprise in

1:19:13this movie is yeah I thought they would

1:19:15kill captain america at the end of it

1:19:17and I know that Chris Evans is running

1:19:18out of his contract meet you and I

1:19:20really thought I thought it was sort of

1:19:22setup that was going to be the surprise

1:19:24at the end is that is that he's going

1:19:27take the shoe and Bucky would take the

1:19:29shield and I'm all I'm gonna say

1:19:30identifies himself pursue what instead

1:19:33what they decided was they want to make

1:19:34Avengers infinity war with chris evans

1:19:36and they're backing up the truck full of

1:19:38money to his house for those two movies

1:19:39well i think another part of it is that

1:19:41is that Evans has done a bunch of stuff

1:19:43that isn't marvel stuff while he was

1:19:45kind of grousing about how he felt like

1:19:47he should be getting paid more and its

1:19:49kind of paint one of the things that I

1:19:51don't know has filtered through the the

1:19:52chain is that apparently his big his big

1:19:55thing was he just really hated all the

1:19:57working out that he had to do and it was

1:19:58just it was a pain but then he's tried

1:20:01doing a bunch of stuff that isn't

1:20:02playing Captain America and he's kind of

1:20:05realized you know being captain america

1:20:07and so bad meal ticket now this could be

1:20:10worse

1:20:11so we may be yeah don't don't kill me

1:20:13off i think i'll resize I think I'll go

1:20:15guys

1:20:15I think like Robert Downey jr. they have

1:20:18both exhausted their contracts which

1:20:20means that Marvel has had two reup them

1:20:22by movie by movie for larger sums of

1:20:25money which is not a bad place to be if

1:20:27you're an actor right well Roma Downey

1:20:29jr. was saying this week he'd be out for

1:20:31a full flow ya lyin man phone like I do

1:20:34wonder at some point that their leverage

1:20:36is so their leverage is so great it

1:20:39it'll be I mean this is something to

1:20:41plant for five years from now but at

1:20:42some point the marvel cinematic universe

1:20:44is going to have to either continue

1:20:46without a lot of these key characters

1:20:47because they won't want to come back or

1:20:48because they're too old or they're going

1:20:50to have to sort of close it and then

1:20:52like start again and it'll be

1:20:54interesting to see how the movie

1:20:56franchise deal deals with this because

1:20:59like Star Wars can always kind of have

1:21:01this continuing story that pushes into

1:21:02the future but like you only get Tony

1:21:05stark/iron man this one time unless you

1:21:08reboot it for me what civil war

1:21:10accomplishes the best that other

1:21:13superhero movies of late have not is

1:21:16that it made it a big deal

1:21:17cool deal an event to go out to the

1:21:20movies with other people talk about it

1:21:22afterward like we're doing right now and

1:21:24just have fun and and you know even when

1:21:27dealing with sometimes dark or

1:21:29complicated or difficult subject matter

1:21:31you know find find a an underlying

1:21:34spirit of adventure and fun and

1:21:37the possible that gives us an escape

1:21:39from from everyday life and that's

1:21:41that's what they're continuing to crank

1:21:43out really well and i don't i don't see

1:21:46it

1:21:46stopping for them unless they decide

1:21:48they need to do six movies a year and

1:21:50not pay as much attention to them as

1:21:52they currently our team boy says is that

1:21:54Moyes is that what you have any more of

1:21:57your sort of final verdict that the

1:21:58movie because I'm moving into the final

1:22:00verdict of the movie phase that's the

1:22:01debt that's that's it alright if if if

1:22:04you're going to give me an avengers

1:22:06movie captain america movie and iron man

1:22:08movie a Black Panther movie and a

1:22:10co-stars movie all wrapped into one make

1:22:13it is coherent and give everybody as

1:22:15much of a reason to be on screen as as

1:22:17you give them in this movie

1:22:18this this is the thing that you should

1:22:20be trying to rip off in terms of dynamic

1:22:23if you if you are somebody that is

1:22:24trying to construct a narrative this

1:22:25complex David what your final verdict

1:22:29I really liked it it it i thought it

1:22:33held together better than the Avengers

1:22:35movies which I mean even the first one

1:22:39it took me three tries to get through it

1:22:40without falling asleep and i like it i

1:22:43do like it but I did keep falling asleep

1:22:45when an ultra was you know fine it had

1:22:49really fun moments that have really long

1:22:51boring moments this one I was engaged

1:22:54throughout i will i really enjoyed it

1:22:57Erica I enjoyed it was it was a fun

1:22:59experience of the theater didn't feel as

1:23:00long as it was which is a thing I was

1:23:02worried about i think it actually just

1:23:05makes me look forward to other Marvel

1:23:08Cinematic Universe movies more than

1:23:11going back to watch this again simply

1:23:12because like i said i didn't care about

1:23:14Bucky and I this movie actually like

1:23:17Steve before this movie and after this

1:23:19one I really don't like them so much

1:23:20anymore so I'm okay with his contract

1:23:23running out and then watching some other

1:23:24characters do some other things next

1:23:26time alright Steven I think it's it's

1:23:29one of my least favorite of the Marvel

1:23:31Universe movies actually because what

1:23:34Erika said there about me not liking cap

1:23:36very much and honestly the the endless

1:23:39fight scenes I knew there was going to

1:23:42be nothing resolved at them because

1:23:43they're friends fighting friends and no

1:23:45one's going to

1:23:45I and and I have to admit a little bit

1:23:48of concern just because they're they're

1:23:49having so many characters in their

1:23:50introducing new ones with Black Panther

1:23:52who I like Doctor Strange and a couple

1:23:56others I don't even know if in humans

1:23:57are coming and not even sure if that's

1:23:58on the board anymore it's not I'm just

1:24:00I'm just I'm just worried about the

1:24:03whole universe becoming stuff to the

1:24:06point where it just becomes unmanageable

1:24:08I don't read the comics i only know

1:24:10these characters to the movies when the

1:24:11Avengers was announced that everyone was

1:24:13going crazy i thought they're bringing

1:24:14back seat and Peele again I didn't know

1:24:16sochi watch the hell yeah they did it

1:24:20once it fail so I'm alive a little

1:24:22worried about how things are going to

1:24:24move into the future there were bits

1:24:26about this movie that i like but there's

1:24:27lots that I actually really didn't

1:24:29James well i mean i'd like to claim like

1:24:33so many good things that the film is

1:24:34partially Scottish because mark miller

1:24:37who wrote the original comic series

1:24:39lives somewhere next to my house and

1:24:42I've seen him around the streets here so

1:24:44I kind of feel like I have to like it on

1:24:46that ground but I think I came out of it

1:24:49and i really liked it and I thought it

1:24:51was significantly better than Ultron and

1:24:55then as I've so sat down and analyzed

1:24:57and taking a power I actually like it

1:24:59slightly less and I'll the thing that

1:25:02bothered me the most the two things

1:25:03about the most was spider-man who i

1:25:06really dislike the betrayal of and the

1:25:08fact that Robert Downey jr. was really

1:25:11unlikable to me for most of the movie

1:25:14but having said that i did enjoy right

1:25:17and Lisa well I love that big patriotic

1:25:19burrito so I now get google executive

1:25:27like a Dorito broad the short he is now

1:25:29we're and i thought this movie actually

1:25:32did very well by most of its characters

1:25:34um i have really mixed feelings about

1:25:38Bucky I like the relationship that cap

1:25:41has a lucky i've always had mixed

1:25:43feelings about how he's portrayed and

1:25:44how is cast so I got the color and I do

1:25:48think the movie got a little draggy once

1:25:50they move to Siberia but there was so

1:25:52much about this that was so smart and I

1:25:54think that the Russo brothers do a great

1:25:56job with the action sequences there

1:25:58they're just wonderful

1:25:59and there's a surprising amount of hard

1:26:01at the movie so I think this is probably

1:26:03my top three for the Marvel movies if i

1:26:05had to write them and I'm really looking

1:26:07forward to going back and seeing it

1:26:08again

1:26:09yeah I I liked it a lot uh they're like

1:26:13James the more I thought about some of

1:26:15the things in it the more I i saw sort

1:26:17of the scenes of it but in the moment I

1:26:20appreciated it

1:26:21I said a lot about the Avengers movies

1:26:23that i sometimes I grade the Avengers

1:26:26movies based on what they're being asked

1:26:28to do which is a lot of franchise work

1:26:31and servicing lots of characters which

1:26:33is very hard to do in in a good way at

1:26:37all and i think that the Avengers movies

1:26:38both did that but especially the first

1:26:41one you could see the strain but it

1:26:43managed to keep it all as i thought the

1:26:45first Avengers movie was gonna be a

1:26:46disaster and the fact that it was not a

1:26:48disaster is is impressive

1:26:51this movie has to do that too it's not

1:26:53it is Captain America movie in some ways

1:26:55but it's really doing the job of the

1:26:57Avengers movies which is too without you

1:27:00uphold the franchise introduce new

1:27:01characters and not every Marvel movie

1:27:04was like this it would be a terrible

1:27:05series but there are lots of stand-alone

1:27:07movies and then there's movies where

1:27:08everybody gets to play together and I

1:27:11think you did a good job I because it

1:27:14was it was stuffed but I felt like it

1:27:16did a good job with all of the different

1:27:18things that were stuffed into it and the

1:27:20Russo brothers did such a good job with

1:27:22civil war are with a winter soldier I

1:27:25think they did I don't think this is as

1:27:27good a movie is winter soldier is but i

1:27:29think i would have been hard to do

1:27:30because it's not as as streamlined as

1:27:33even that movie it because it is just

1:27:35full of all this stuff but i think they

1:27:37did I think they did a good job I I

1:27:39definitely came out of it for me

1:27:41sometimes the litmus test is do i do I

1:27:43leave the movie theater and sometime

1:27:45over the next 12 hours think of man i

1:27:47wish i could go watch it again and i

1:27:49actually did feel that for this movie so

1:27:50I guess I i will give it a thumb up i

1:27:53don't know where it fits in the in the

1:27:54list all right well uh the civil wars in

1:27:58the books I i guess uh oh and uh

1:28:02that we've talked to see what's it about

1:28:04war anyway well if only there were more

1:28:06Canadians involved would be much more

1:28:07simple as what I'm saying i'd like to

1:28:09thank my guests for being here

1:28:11Lisa schmeiser thank you thank you this

1:28:12is a lot of fun Moises to yawn thank you

1:28:15very much for being here

1:28:16I don't care if David lord thank you

1:28:20thank you I I could do this all day

1:28:22james thompson thanks james thompson

1:28:25will return 0 blue Eric and sign the

1:28:30only Lana can remember is I hate you but

1:28:33that sounds so meaty thank you

1:28:38how about and does stephen Japan's he

1:28:40can you slide that see forward a little

1:28:41bit i know the only hope I only hope

1:28:47that Stanley has one cameo at least left

1:28:51in him so that his last words spoken in

1:28:52a Marvel film aren't Tony stink my i

1:28:56hope the motion capture him so he's in

1:28:58all the movies and now on now

1:29:00probably so alright thanks everybody for

1:29:02listening to this flash episode about

1:29:05captain america civil war we will see

1:29:07you next week with episode number 300

1:29:26[Music]