The Incomparable

11: To Be Continued?


00:00:00   podcast episode 11 / 2010 [TS]

00:00:14   this is the uncomfortable podcast I call [TS]

00:00:16   this meeting of the book club to order [TS]

00:00:18   it is it made to order it when i get to [TS]

00:00:22   choose I didn't choose actually i think [TS]

00:00:23   what books we finally decided to talk [TS]

00:00:25   about this and didn't say I hate you all [TS]

00:00:27   that every podcast was supposed to let [TS]

00:00:28   me introduce all the people i hate today [TS]

00:00:30   first and foremost the voice you just [TS]

00:00:33   heard Glenn fleischmann hi Glenn [TS]

00:00:36   hello there I also joining us today Dan [TS]

00:00:39   Morgan who's on every podcast idea i'm [TS]

00:00:42   on every podcast in the world that's [TS]

00:00:45   right i don't know why but he is usually [TS]

00:00:50   uninvited I really really bored clearly [TS]

00:00:52   also joining us today Scott McNulty who [TS]

00:00:57   will be with us for a while and then [TS]

00:00:58   we'll duck out to do like exercise and [TS]

00:01:01   stuff [TS]

00:01:01   yes I i'm a fat man who wants to be less [TS]

00:01:04   fat [TS]

00:01:05   well that's your holding down the [TS]

00:01:06   Zeppelin right now exactly you can be [TS]

00:01:08   lighter than air and also joining us [TS]

00:01:11   today for his first time on the podcast [TS]

00:01:13   be gentle or or don't be gentle [TS]

00:01:16   Greg moss by Regis it's really nice to [TS]

00:01:19   be here [TS]

00:01:19   that's right Kathie Lee will be joining [TS]

00:01:21   us worked me like a ham [TS]

00:01:23   haha that's not not a euphemism [TS]

00:01:27   everybody workin him like a ham [TS]

00:01:30   so we have three books to talk about [TS]

00:01:31   today and first up is spin winner of the [TS]

00:01:35   hugo award by robert charles wilson [TS]

00:01:37   published in 2005 on the hugo award in [TS]

00:01:40   2006 it is apparently the first book [TS]

00:01:43   according to wikipedia in the spin [TS]

00:01:45   trilogy I've only read the first book so [TS]

00:01:47   I cannot speak to the other magical [TS]

00:01:50   selections in this in this a in [TS]

00:01:52   astrology I believe several of you just [TS]

00:01:54   finish this book I've read this ages ago [TS]

00:01:57   I know you're talking about like five [TS]

00:01:59   minutes ago right looks like at least I [TS]

00:02:00   mean defensive we talked about in spin [TS]

00:02:02   time or a regular time is right for you [TS]

00:02:04   inside the envelope or outside the [TS]

00:02:06   envelope and Scott you just finished it [TS]

00:02:08   recently to write i finished last week [TS]

00:02:10   wow I finished about two weeks ago so [TS]

00:02:13   apparently had a curve my goodness this [TS]

00:02:14   is like a real book club [TS]

00:02:18   I i read it like two years ago but [TS]

00:02:20   that's okay that was you know I feel I [TS]

00:02:23   feel like I'm with it now we should [TS]

00:02:25   start by asking [TS]

00:02:26   didn't you read the next to is an [TS]

00:02:27   indication of the books quality i bought [TS]

00:02:29   a kindle and it's not available on the [TS]

00:02:31   kindle and I decided I wasn't going to [TS]

00:02:33   find paper and I haven't you know the [TS]

00:02:34   third one is not yet i bought it right [TS]

00:02:37   there that would also be that would be a [TS]

00:02:38   small bottles of time and space which [TS]

00:02:41   are contravene in many parts of spin so [TS]

00:02:43   anyway to spin robert charles wilson the [TS]

00:02:46   premise is that what would happen if the [TS]

00:02:49   earth kind of got enveloped by this [TS]

00:02:51   shell that turns out to be slowing its [TS]

00:02:55   passage through time so time and the [TS]

00:02:57   rest of the universe is patched passing [TS]

00:02:59   much faster than it is on earth and [TS]

00:03:02   there are some social ramifications and [TS]

00:03:05   there's some character ramifications and [TS]

00:03:07   then there's some interesting things [TS]

00:03:07   that happen when you when they start to [TS]

00:03:09   figure out that they can actually send [TS]

00:03:10   stuff outside of the bubble into the [TS]

00:03:12   rest of the universe so i don't know i [TS]

00:03:15   don't know quite where to start uh we'll [TS]

00:03:18   circle back around to this at the end [TS]

00:03:19   but you know did you guys did you guys [TS]

00:03:22   like it and you know what [TS]

00:03:24   what did you like about it and what did [TS]

00:03:25   you not about let's go with dan who read [TS]

00:03:27   it the most recently by several minutes [TS]

00:03:30   yeah i'm struggling to digest this [TS]

00:03:32   entire book that i just finished [TS]

00:03:34   um I kind of give it a solid i liked it [TS]

00:03:38   you know wasn't it wasn't like what I [TS]

00:03:41   didn't love it I didn't think it was [TS]

00:03:42   like the best book I've read but it was [TS]

00:03:43   entertaining it was interesting [TS]

00:03:45   there's certainly a lot of great ideas [TS]

00:03:46   in here and he really does pack them in [TS]

00:03:48   um I i guess when I felt like what kind [TS]

00:03:51   of the weaknesses are some of the [TS]

00:03:54   characters are interesting but they're [TS]

00:03:55   very hard to identify with at some [TS]

00:03:57   points more deliberately than others i [TS]

00:03:59   think you know especially when you talk [TS]

00:04:00   about this these you could argue the [TS]

00:04:03   central character if not the protagonist [TS]

00:04:04   is is this guy Jason and he is terrible [TS]

00:04:08   and another one yeah yeah what a [TS]

00:04:10   terrible i can't you just can't believe [TS]

00:04:11   anybody with the name Jason no way [TS]

00:04:13   untrustworthy but he's kind of intended [TS]

00:04:16   to be you know he sort of set up as a [TS]

00:04:19   he's a genius you know he knows he's [TS]

00:04:22   very intelligent he's been groomed from [TS]

00:04:23   a young age to really change the world [TS]

00:04:27   somehow how many happens to find this [TS]

00:04:30   sort of you know he comes of age in this [TS]

00:04:31   is perfect timing when he's actually [TS]

00:04:33   able to put himself in a position where [TS]

00:04:35   you can actually change the world [TS]

00:04:36   arguably but he's also kind of this in [TS]

00:04:39   screwed in [TS]

00:04:39   screw double character who is very set [TS]

00:04:41   apart from a lot of the other characters [TS]

00:04:43   including the narrator who is his best [TS]

00:04:45   friend and who is sort of the tempering [TS]

00:04:48   influence and sometimes but I'm also [TS]

00:04:51   seems to be on you know almost a more [TS]

00:04:53   realistic plane but I guess I found you [TS]

00:04:56   know some of the characters harder to [TS]

00:04:58   identify with others the wilson a lot of [TS]

00:05:02   his female characters especially are [TS]

00:05:04   very hate to say not known always [TS]

00:05:07   complimentary and not always as well [TS]

00:05:10   drawn as i think i would like we get [TS]

00:05:13   very much the idea of Jason's sister [TS]

00:05:15   Diane like speed through the prison of [TS]

00:05:17   prism of the protagonist who is in love [TS]

00:05:19   with her [TS]

00:05:19   so we get her drawn up a lot and I don't [TS]

00:05:22   think that's necessarily always borne [TS]

00:05:24   out by her actual portrayal is she not [TS]

00:05:26   Jenny from Forrest Gump I mean kinda [TS]

00:05:29   weird AC like goats on she's old [TS]

00:05:31   childhood friend and she's not here for [TS]

00:05:33   a lot of streets caught up in some crazy [TS]

00:05:35   fundamentalist religion stuff and it's [TS]

00:05:38   kind of a hippie well and MGM you know [TS]

00:05:40   that's cute which I felt I I like given [TS]

00:05:43   the fact that she was put on such a high [TS]

00:05:44   pedestal i kind of expected more from [TS]

00:05:46   her like what is he really seen her like [TS]

00:05:48   you know they're there were definitely [TS]

00:05:49   some sparks of earlier on I guess in the [TS]

00:05:51   relationship in terms of like you know [TS]

00:05:53   she set up to be kind of a parallel to [TS]

00:05:55   her brother but also always like a step [TS]

00:05:58   below him right and so i guess ii you [TS]

00:06:00   know it's hard for me to to sort of see [TS]

00:06:02   her the way that I think the protagonist [TS]

00:06:04   does I've seen this problem in a couple [TS]

00:06:06   of science fiction novels where there's [TS]

00:06:08   a group of characters who started as [TS]

00:06:10   children and their super kids [TS]

00:06:12   I mean you know they're going to span [TS]

00:06:13   the entire course of the novel and [TS]

00:06:15   they're going to change the world and so [TS]

00:06:16   they don't they seem remote from the [TS]

00:06:18   moment they're introduced yeah like hard [TS]

00:06:21   identified because I mean I mean I don't [TS]

00:06:22   you guys I mean I wasn't super good [TS]

00:06:24   briefly but yes I guess it's a little [TS]

00:06:27   easier to and you're still wear the Cape [TS]

00:06:29   there is that what they said it does [TS]

00:06:30   have a little bit of the width of Endor [TS]

00:06:32   to him right [TS]

00:06:33   yes exactly that's a great compares true [TS]

00:06:34   both characters jerks haha look for the [TS]

00:06:39   radar good arguably right like third [TS]

00:06:41   hurt so the rest of humanity doesn't [TS]

00:06:43   have to live like jerks and enter [TS]

00:06:46   doesn't like died in the corner with [TS]

00:06:47   crystals growing out of his eyes now [TS]

00:06:49   right but where's the spoiler warning [TS]

00:06:51   always people who [TS]

00:06:53   hey sorry we've already fired the [TS]

00:06:55   spoiler horn always have to remember to [TS]

00:06:57   put in virtual i only read the first of [TS]

00:06:59   the under books to read it didn't stop [TS]

00:07:03   there [TS]

00:07:03   this is part of our ongoing the ongoing [TS]

00:07:05   incomparable theme of only read the [TS]

00:07:08   first book in any cereal 24 hours [TS]

00:07:10   yeah is there any yet tell me about a [TS]

00:07:12   second dune book how'd that work out [TS]

00:07:14   no yeah so Scott know what did you think [TS]

00:07:18   I enjoyed the book a lot i did cut i [TS]

00:07:23   agree with Dan most of the characters [TS]

00:07:24   are not likeable and I kind of found [TS]

00:07:26   them it was the same Tyler time like the [TS]

00:07:29   the protagonist of the narrator is [TS]

00:07:32   either well he's the we see the story [TS]

00:07:34   from his point of view and he kind of [TS]

00:07:36   ideal hehe is like a farming puppy to [TS]

00:07:40   this family of people who do not treat [TS]

00:07:42   him all that well but he just keeps [TS]

00:07:44   going back to them right uh which I kind [TS]

00:07:47   of annoyed me throughout the book [TS]

00:07:48   because you know he's he's kind of the [TS]

00:07:50   most relatable of the characters that [TS]

00:07:52   are all unrelatable so you kind of feel [TS]

00:07:55   for him but then you think why do you [TS]

00:07:57   keep going back to these situations with [TS]

00:07:58   these people don't seem to care about [TS]

00:08:00   you and he's kinda cold to write like [TS]

00:08:02   they make a point of that a few [TS]

00:08:04   different places in the book of him [TS]

00:08:05   being a little bit removed from the [TS]

00:08:07   world right when he starts going out [TS]

00:08:10   with that woman who is and his coldness [TS]

00:08:12   it is justified because it turns out [TS]

00:08:15   that woman is a secret double agent [TS]

00:08:18   yeah another one of the female [TS]

00:08:20   characters whose not drawn exceedingly [TS]

00:08:22   complement really it doesn't it doesn't [TS]

00:08:23   come off well we all know women are just [TS]

00:08:26   about sex religion and betrayal [TS]

00:08:28   oh don't forget out we really don't know [TS]

00:08:31   haha drunk is drunk stupid and what else [TS]

00:08:36   is you've got to have that jaded I mean [TS]

00:08:38   I like this book but he did the mom of [TS]

00:08:41   the of the up Jason and Diane is a she's [TS]

00:08:45   like you're jaded Washington alcoholic [TS]

00:08:48   housewife right with a secret deep [TS]

00:08:51   secret that can only be revealed 5% [TS]

00:08:53   before the end of the book [TS]

00:08:54   yes exactly yeah if she gets a [TS]

00:08:57   Redemption a little bit of the air but [TS]

00:08:59   especially a central casting sort of the [TS]

00:09:02   others [TS]

00:09:02   is one positive female characters [TS]

00:09:04   malaysia right here malaysia and [TS]

00:09:05   indianola yes although you know that the [TS]

00:09:07   Malaysian doctor and she is awesome [TS]

00:09:09   she's well-drawn she's fasting this is [TS]

00:09:12   my problem with the book is that I'm [TS]

00:09:13   much more interested in the secondary [TS]

00:09:15   characters then the main characters [TS]

00:09:16   there's an incredibly strong plot and [TS]

00:09:19   some really neat science like some [TS]

00:09:21   really neat ways of like where you're [TS]

00:09:23   starting to sound exactly the envelopes [TS]

00:09:25   about for the first time for the book [TS]

00:09:26   then once all that's known i'm like well [TS]

00:09:28   I really kind of like the Martian or I [TS]

00:09:31   like you know that the double-crossing [TS]

00:09:33   betray Roman like she's sort of [TS]

00:09:35   interesting or the fundamentalist guy [TS]

00:09:37   who died in Mary's like he's passing and [TS]

00:09:40   bizarre like all those people are drawn [TS]

00:09:41   and sketches much more richly if not [TS]

00:09:44   realistically than the primary [TS]

00:09:46   characters yeah i mean speaking I mean [TS]

00:09:48   speaking from a writer Lee perspective [TS]

00:09:49   and that's easier and a lot of ways [TS]

00:09:51   right because when you have a character [TS]

00:09:52   who is such a major character they have [TS]

00:09:54   to be so fleshed out you know just in [TS]

00:09:57   terms of their exposure in the book and [TS]

00:09:59   have to be so developed and so [TS]

00:10:00   three-dimensional to get you to really [TS]

00:10:01   be inside their head that it's very [TS]

00:10:04   tough because you can really see it in a [TS]

00:10:05   very close detail as opposed to the [TS]

00:10:08   sketches that you get for those [TS]

00:10:09   secondary characters which are often [TS]

00:10:10   enough to get you let your imagination [TS]

00:10:13   soar to fill in the rest of the details [TS]

00:10:15   you don't necessarily have to go into [TS]

00:10:16   their home life and like you know they [TS]

00:10:17   had a terrible childhood and all this [TS]

00:10:19   stuff you can sort of get an idea from [TS]

00:10:20   them from just a brief you throwaway [TS]

00:10:23   lines and I i agree i think Wilson does [TS]

00:10:24   vary a great job with a lot of those [TS]

00:10:26   secondary characters so you know this [TS]

00:10:28   book does have this interesting [TS]

00:10:29   back-and-forth device where you are [TS]

00:10:33   the infield essentially billions of [TS]

00:10:34   years in the future with the same [TS]

00:10:36   characters that we we see in the past [TS]

00:10:39   when their kids and it goes back and [TS]

00:10:41   forth and to glens point it is [TS]

00:10:43   interesting that the the stuff that set [TS]

00:10:45   in the future feels very different some [TS]

00:10:48   of the characters they're very [TS]

00:10:49   interesting they're really on the run in [TS]

00:10:51   malaysia trying to get a boat to escape [TS]

00:10:54   and them and tyler is really sick and we [TS]

00:10:57   don't really know why he's sick at first [TS]

00:11:00   and we discovered that very late and [TS]

00:11:04   I'll i really enjoy that time frame a [TS]

00:11:05   lot although it does have the flaw of [TS]

00:11:08   being a part of the story that doesn't [TS]

00:11:09   really have an ending right well I mean [TS]

00:11:12   the structure of the book if you ask me [TS]

00:11:14   is [TS]

00:11:16   kind of i'm guessing it's deliver in [TS]

00:11:18   this sense that it's kind of an arch [TS]

00:11:20   right because both of the things start [TS]

00:11:23   you start the beginning and then at the [TS]

00:11:24   end the two narratives meet yes and so [TS]

00:11:28   and of course you know there is an arch [TS]

00:11:30   in the book a giant arch a giant art [TS]

00:11:32   which is symbolic so I think I mean I i [TS]

00:11:34   would not be surprised to find that the [TS]

00:11:36   structure of the narrative was created [TS]

00:11:37   to sort of have a have a resonance with [TS]

00:11:39   that I'm like that whole development who [TS]

00:11:44   was disappointed by the ending [TS]

00:11:45   everyone everyone everyone follows its [TS]

00:11:49   already just what disappointed you about [TS]

00:11:50   it i want to do is I was fascinated by [TS]

00:11:52   the idea of the bubble and the physics [TS]

00:11:54   that went into it and how society [TS]

00:11:56   reacted to it and like there were so [TS]

00:11:57   many possibilities once they establish [TS]

00:11:59   that it happened and then as they [TS]

00:12:01   started resolving those possibilities at [TS]

00:12:04   as the number of things that it could be [TS]

00:12:06   collapsed down into specifics they it [TS]

00:12:09   was all really well done but you were [TS]

00:12:10   just kind of left with oh okay I'll buy [TS]

00:12:13   that and the Martian was interesting and [TS]

00:12:15   okay it was fun to go and terraform mars [TS]

00:12:17   in the next couple of weeks and but it [TS]

00:12:19   just it didn't seem to add up to the [TS]

00:12:22   potential that the bubble had at the [TS]

00:12:24   beginning of the book in which turns out [TS]

00:12:25   to be [TS]

00:12:26   it's a universal literally universal [TS]

00:12:28   fidonet wow you want something that is [TS]

00:12:33   over haha haha no it's not it's my new [TS]

00:12:37   machines on going over all the gallery [TS]

00:12:39   forward packet network and they've [TS]

00:12:41   decided I mean the premise again spoiler [TS]

00:12:43   horn long ago was fired [TS]

00:12:45   the premise is that that uh he's looking [TS]

00:12:48   for work now the that the that this [TS]

00:12:52   yes thank you and I have I'm sorry [TS]

00:12:55   the premise here is that they're they're [TS]

00:12:57   wrapping intelligent races in this spin [TS]

00:13:00   shell so that they can prepare the [TS]

00:13:04   galaxy of the universe for them in some [TS]

00:13:07   way but it's going to take them awhile [TS]

00:13:09   so basically the the robot say okay [TS]

00:13:11   we're going to slow you down for a few [TS]

00:13:13   billion years while we do other stuff [TS]

00:13:16   and then we'll take you back out and [TS]

00:13:18   then party [TS]

00:13:20   it's kind of a pre singularity novel [TS]

00:13:23   right like you know your did the book [TS]

00:13:26   leaves off at the point at which are [TS]

00:13:27   sort of human humanities enter [TS]

00:13:29   what ya popularly called the singularity [TS]

00:13:31   and that's why the ending didn't bother [TS]

00:13:33   me because I felt like you know it is an [TS]

00:13:36   ending to say and he you know Tyler sort [TS]

00:13:38   of makes his transition into this fourth [TS]

00:13:40   stage of life and you know he and Diane [TS]

00:13:44   go through the whatever-it-is the arch [TS]

00:13:47   to this new world and and humanity makes [TS]

00:13:50   the transition to yeah it's definitely [TS]

00:13:52   an ending but it's still kind of a [TS]

00:13:53   disappointing ending given the [TS]

00:13:54   possibilities that there were at the [TS]

00:13:56   beginning of the book a quarter of the [TS]

00:13:57   way through the way in whatever that's [TS]

00:13:59   always going to be the case though I [TS]

00:14:00   mean like you know when you have so many [TS]

00:14:02   ideas so many possibilities and as those [TS]

00:14:04   get diminished I think oftentimes [TS]

00:14:06   there's there is there is a big [TS]

00:14:07   potential for disappointment there if I [TS]

00:14:10   I just thought it felt it's not like [TS]

00:14:12   we're going to hang out yeah like it can [TS]

00:14:14   be you didn't bring a book it one day I [TS]

00:14:17   just it's like to get towards the data [TS]

00:14:19   moment it's like everything was [TS]

00:14:21   interesting that the book starts to [TS]

00:14:22   drain out the Martians killed Mars [TS]

00:14:25   becomes more ordinary you get this sort [TS]

00:14:27   of potboiler thing like why they're on [TS]

00:14:29   the run seems really interesting until [TS]

00:14:31   you discover that for arbitrary reasons [TS]

00:14:33   the government is just killing all the [TS]

00:14:34   people who have gone through this [TS]

00:14:36   transformation you're like well what [TS]

00:14:38   doesn't make sense when they kill him [TS]

00:14:39   round them up using for their own [TS]

00:14:40   purposes exist you know autopsy then [TS]

00:14:43   whatever but the like they're killing [TS]

00:14:44   them because they're something like what [TS]

00:14:46   i don't get it i mean maybe let's get a [TS]

00:14:48   little futurist at the end they sort of [TS]

00:14:50   like dumped a whole bunch of info on [TS]

00:14:51   your like this is happening in this [TS]

00:14:52   tempted to do that little thai where [TS]

00:14:54   they get the two narratives time [TS]

00:14:56   together [TS]

00:14:56   there's a lot of a lot of that it [TS]

00:14:59   reminded me a little bit of Darwin's [TS]

00:15:00   radio and the sequel to that by Greg [TS]

00:15:02   bear which it's the same sort of thing [TS]

00:15:03   which is throughout the book the [TS]

00:15:05   government is sort of this and maybe I [TS]

00:15:07   don't know maybe there's yeah some [TS]

00:15:08   politics involved here but the [TS]

00:15:09   government does lots of things and it's [TS]

00:15:13   sort of a shadowy conspiracy or there [TS]

00:15:15   they do it out of fear or their Craven [TS]

00:15:16   politicians and you have a lot of the [TS]

00:15:18   story that sort of being driven by kind [TS]

00:15:22   of stupid government or politics and you [TS]

00:15:26   know maybe that's realism but I i almost [TS]

00:15:29   want a little more escapism I guess from [TS]

00:15:33   a sci-fi novel and and 442 just come [TS]

00:15:36   down to the fact that while they're a [TS]

00:15:37   bunch of jerks in the government who are [TS]

00:15:39   going to want to suppress this or use it [TS]

00:15:41   for their own purposes but [TS]

00:15:42   I'm not even doing that they just want [TS]

00:15:44   to arbitrarily hunt the heroes for nope [TS]

00:15:46   yeah because that's because if it's [TS]

00:15:48   required for the end of the book [TS]

00:15:50   well Darwin radio is kinda or the sequel [TS]

00:15:52   to it is it's kinda like that to which [TS]

00:15:53   meant them all down at once it's not [TS]

00:15:56   good but I kind of like the other [TS]

00:15:58   paranoia aspect in the beginning when [TS]

00:15:59   everybody talks about being paranoid and [TS]

00:16:01   they're like well I mean we kind of got [TS]

00:16:02   a good reason to be paranoid right like [TS]

00:16:04   some unknown force has totally wrapped [TS]

00:16:06   our world and his bubble lookin is [TS]

00:16:07   totally doing something to us that we [TS]

00:16:09   don't really understand so you know [TS]

00:16:10   paranoia seems to make it look I don't [TS]

00:16:12   talk about borrowing because i know i [TS]

00:16:14   did like the book until the ending I [TS]

00:16:16   thought actually was very strong [TS]

00:16:17   interesting and really unique voice and [TS]

00:16:19   I was really compelled to get through it [TS]

00:16:21   but like thinking about it now since [TS]

00:16:23   I've got the perspective of two weeks to [TS]

00:16:25   write a lot about it I feel like every [TS]

00:16:28   almost everything in the book comes from [TS]

00:16:29   somewhere else like it really starts to [TS]

00:16:31   feel like a pastiche within the drawing [TS]

00:16:33   main characters like you know i was just [TS]

00:16:35   looking up i remember the Commonwealth [TS]

00:16:36   Saget and avoid trilogy Peter F Hamilton [TS]

00:16:38   series that are going on where it's you [TS]

00:16:41   know portals between worlds in a certain [TS]

00:16:44   kind of sophisticated Society out there [TS]

00:16:46   hyperion which were talking about with [TS]

00:16:48   portals between worlds that's kind of a [TS]

00:16:49   common but it's still this arch thing [TS]

00:16:51   once you walk back and forth between [TS]

00:16:52   different places the Ringworld anybody [TS]

00:16:55   think about Ringworld they talked about [TS]

00:16:56   the fourth age business [TS]

00:16:58   the Martians life-extending and whatever [TS]

00:17:00   these people become protectors you know [TS]

00:17:03   they have slightly different physical [TS]

00:17:04   attributes their attitudes are changing [TS]

00:17:06   their more protective when he stranger [TS]

00:17:08   in a strange land [TS]

00:17:10   yeah yeah this doesn't right Martian [TS]

00:17:12   comes through which you can understand [TS]

00:17:13   the echoes of stranger in a strange land [TS]

00:17:15   like that's you know very well and it [TS]

00:17:16   gets and get out to which is kind of a [TS]

00:17:18   nice nice moment where the Martian wants [TS]

00:17:20   to read all the Martian sci-fi yeah but [TS]

00:17:23   it's in there is i mean there's more to [TS]

00:17:25   but I I cus i wasn't it was all recycled [TS]

00:17:27   or purposely borrowed but at the end as [TS]

00:17:29   like that you know this is this is like [TS]

00:17:31   10 or 15 different you know hunks of [TS]

00:17:34   different books are you know even the [TS]

00:17:35   the Kim Stanley Robinson Mars series [TS]

00:17:38   where it's like we're going to terraform [TS]

00:17:40   it's like let's take all of that and put [TS]

00:17:41   in 25 pages [TS]

00:17:43   we're gonna send these seed ships off [TS]

00:17:45   and then if everything goes well they'll [TS]

00:17:46   be settlers there who advanced [TS]

00:17:48   definitely another help i have to say [TS]

00:17:50   that there are two great ideas in this [TS]

00:17:51   book and one of them is what would [TS]

00:17:52   happen to society if if you know the [TS]

00:17:54   Stars went out and there [TS]

00:17:55   is perhaps a suggestion that that this [TS]

00:17:58   generation on the planet would be the [TS]

00:18:00   last because then the Sun will swell and [TS]

00:18:01   that will be the end you get an [TS]

00:18:02   eschatological been to ya and then the [TS]

00:18:05   the other nice word and the other big [TS]

00:18:07   idea here is this time bubble and [TS]

00:18:09   ramifications of sending people through [TS]

00:18:10   it and there's a really nice moment that [TS]

00:18:12   has stuck with me in the last couple [TS]

00:18:14   years since i read it which is that [TS]

00:18:15   there's a slight launch malfunction in [TS]

00:18:17   one of the ships that's going to Mars [TS]

00:18:18   and it launches like 15 seconds too late [TS]

00:18:22   which means that because of the speed of [TS]

00:18:25   the time bubble that one ship is going [TS]

00:18:28   to be like 10,000 years behind everyone [TS]

00:18:31   else [TS]

00:18:32   by the time it gets to Mars and then [TS]

00:18:34   theory the civilization there will have [TS]

00:18:35   completely forgotten about earth until [TS]

00:18:38   these guys drop out of the world even [TS]

00:18:40   though they left at the same time and [TS]

00:18:42   the whole kind of deep time what it [TS]

00:18:43   means to play off of tens of hundreds of [TS]

00:18:47   thousands or millions of years and how [TS]

00:18:48   quickly it happens to the people who are [TS]

00:18:50   in the bubble [TS]

00:18:51   I mean what a great idea so it's two [TS]

00:18:53   great ideas and ya novel can probably [TS]

00:18:55   suit subsist on one and he has to and [TS]

00:18:58   what like glitter and glam was saying [TS]

00:18:59   about like this being kind of a pastiche [TS]

00:19:01   I mean I think that's you know what you [TS]

00:19:03   say that and I think well that's a great [TS]

00:19:04   premise for a book right there like you [TS]

00:19:06   know from the perspective of the [TS]

00:19:07   Martians who have like going along with [TS]

00:19:09   their ordinary little life in a rocket [TS]

00:19:10   drops out of this guy hey remember us [TS]

00:19:12   and but I think at the same time as part [TS]

00:19:15   of the galaxy book for yeah I i argue [TS]

00:19:18   that they know every good for many good [TS]

00:19:21   science fiction novels and novels and [TS]

00:19:23   arts works in general all build on these [TS]

00:19:25   things you know borrowed ideas from from [TS]

00:19:27   what's gone before and I think you know [TS]

00:19:28   and clearly in this case a lot of it is [TS]

00:19:30   Maj you know by the by the you know the [TS]

00:19:33   vocal call outs two things like Ray [TS]

00:19:35   Bradbury and and Robert Heinlein and all [TS]

00:19:37   that stuff so you know that's okay it's [TS]

00:19:40   okay Scott do you think it's okay i do [TS]

00:19:42   think it's okay and when i was reading [TS]

00:19:44   the the book spin the scene where [TS]

00:19:48   they're sitting on the lawn and the [TS]

00:19:49   stars disappear reminded me very much of [TS]

00:19:52   aiesec asthma short story nightfall [TS]

00:19:55   anyone yeah really yeah [TS]

00:19:57   yes which is a fantastic story if you [TS]

00:19:59   haven't read it you should stop [TS]

00:20:01   listening to this and read it right now [TS]

00:20:02   yes should go back to your childhood and [TS]

00:20:04   read it and then come back to exactly so [TS]

00:20:07   the premises that this planet has sick [TS]

00:20:08   sons and it's never experienced full [TS]

00:20:11   darkness and through a confluence of [TS]

00:20:13   things it's going to go through full [TS]

00:20:15   darkness and what's gonna happen so you [TS]

00:20:16   don't know what happens at the ended the [TS]

00:20:18   darkness comes and he leaves it up to [TS]

00:20:20   you [TS]

00:20:20   although i think that they wrote a novel [TS]

00:20:22   version as well that's yes robert [TS]

00:20:25   silverberg maybe I don't but I very very [TS]

00:20:27   doll [TS]

00:20:28   well there goes the movie to the movie [TS]

00:20:32   was also dull respectfully so that was [TS]

00:20:35   another prestigious came through my mind [TS]

00:20:37   and I thought I agree with Jason I think [TS]

00:20:39   that the the two great ideas of the book [TS]

00:20:41   kind of make up for the lackluster [TS]

00:20:44   characters and the kind of disappointing [TS]

00:20:46   ending although i haven't read the [TS]

00:20:48   second book so I don't know how much [TS]

00:20:50   more disappointing it can be you [TS]

00:20:52   mentioned a few people mention the [TS]

00:20:53   Martian I think the Martians a a really [TS]

00:20:56   cool character this idea that we leave [TS]

00:20:57   we let me fire off these rockets and [TS]

00:20:59   then like a couple days later a guy [TS]

00:21:01   comes back is the result of this whole [TS]

00:21:02   civilization that's more advanced than [TS]

00:21:04   hairs that is the result of those [TS]

00:21:06   Rockets being fired off and he's human [TS]

00:21:08   but he's been on Mars for so long that [TS]

00:21:10   he's a he's essentially an alien he's [TS]

00:21:13   looking at us with a with some sort of [TS]

00:21:16   amusement and detachment which I thought [TS]

00:21:18   was a great bet you know the great [TS]

00:21:20   history of science fiction that he makes [TS]

00:21:22   sure and notes that he's infertile even [TS]

00:21:23   though no sex occurs between him and [TS]

00:21:25   other people huh [TS]

00:21:27   but it is noted because we need to have [TS]

00:21:28   you know that's be set up for future [TS]

00:21:29   books that the the two great ideas in [TS]

00:21:32   this book and I think you're right there [TS]

00:21:33   are two great is the problem with the [TS]

00:21:35   ending is that neither of them time to [TS]

00:21:36   the ending they're both concluded by the [TS]

00:21:38   end of the book you might as well have [TS]

00:21:39   just had this arch appear by magic for [TS]

00:21:41   all the impact that the two great ideas [TS]

00:21:43   are born out of here [TS]

00:21:44   I mean you could have just had it be [TS]

00:21:46   other than having a MacGuffin where they [TS]

00:21:48   have to get somewhere in in the indian [TS]

00:21:50   ocean you know there's no reason for it [TS]

00:21:52   at all it could be equal that's why it's [TS]

00:21:54   there has been goes right the spin goes [TS]

00:21:55   away and that's it and now you're right [TS]

00:21:58   now the universe is ready for you [TS]

00:21:59   well crap what happens next right but [TS]

00:22:01   that isn't the whole function of the [TS]

00:22:03   spin that they put your planet in the [TS]

00:22:05   spin and then they you get to a certain [TS]

00:22:07   point they build these arches for you so [TS]

00:22:09   that you can expand your civilization [TS]

00:22:11   because one yeah its resources won't [TS]

00:22:13   support you [TS]

00:22:14   I think that's the idea but the spoon is [TS]

00:22:16   magic and so the arch could be magic it [TS]

00:22:17   could have just appeared [TS]

00:22:19   there's no one would argue there's [TS]

00:22:21   there's no reason [TS]

00:22:22   and for the spin except as a great idea [TS]

00:22:24   and by the conclusion of the book it [TS]

00:22:26   goes away the book would have been much [TS]

00:22:28   shorter if our kitchen yeah yeah i think [TS]

00:22:32   that is a disappointing that [TS]

00:22:34   interleaving plot would have been boring [TS]

00:22:35   if they were just pretty much waiting [TS]

00:22:36   around to catch a bus against your new [TS]

00:22:40   planet this way [TS]

00:22:41   number 18 in local though it will take [TS]

00:22:43   several chapters they could call it roll [TS]

00:22:45   will be a picaresque story if i recall [TS]

00:22:48   right [TS]

00:22:49   Wow all the words today this is this is [TS]

00:22:53   a no your words i know you guys can read [TS]

00:22:56   stop with the crazy words Scott we don't [TS]

00:22:59   have you from it much longer do you have [TS]

00:23:00   anything more you'd like to share about [TS]

00:23:01   about spin [TS]

00:23:03   oh uh try to think I think we've covered [TS]

00:23:06   a life of knows everybody knows uplands [TS]

00:23:09   uplands there's another aerostats though [TS]

00:23:12   they're not Zeppelin's but the stuff [TS]

00:23:13   that's floating the apps and low [TS]

00:23:14   altitudes a whole region area of low of [TS]

00:23:16   high-altitude balloon technology yeah [TS]

00:23:18   because satellites can't exist so that [TS]

00:23:20   sort of Zeppelin ask yes and I do love [TS]

00:23:23   the fact that so at some point these [TS]

00:23:24   giant cube devices appear above the [TS]

00:23:28   poles of the planet hiring in space just [TS]

00:23:30   like bricks don't exactly know [TS]

00:23:32   everyone's freaked out by them and the [TS]

00:23:34   Chinese decide well why don't we shoot [TS]

00:23:36   some nuclear weapons and see what [TS]

00:23:38   happens which I thought sounds like [TS]

00:23:41   something the Chinese government would [TS]

00:23:42   do ya sites to that they actually there [TS]

00:23:46   has been a bit i think that has one of [TS]

00:23:48   the best images of the book in that the [TS]

00:23:49   when the new kits the the qubit it makes [TS]

00:23:53   the sphere transparent for a while and [TS]

00:23:55   they can see the stars wheeling past it [TS]

00:23:58   at the rate of hundreds of thousands of [TS]

00:24:00   years and that's when everybody freaks [TS]

00:24:02   out right [TS]

00:24:03   I say oh god what's happening and then [TS]

00:24:05   they know that time is moving [TS]

00:24:06   differently although they get the hint [TS]

00:24:08   from e-rock with us and there were the [TS]

00:24:10   Soviet yeah this with the Russian the [TS]

00:24:12   astronauts entrants who were up there [TS]

00:24:14   for several weeks and then they come [TS]

00:24:16   down and it was like no time had passed [TS]

00:24:17   and it was like you're crazy Russia's [TS]

00:24:20   that's right Luke well I guess two of [TS]

00:24:22   them died and one survives using the [TS]

00:24:24   hospital and it's kind of a throwaway [TS]

00:24:26   think I you know I this is not true but [TS]

00:24:29   but i'll just say that when I'm reading [TS]

00:24:31   it I I just written a novel for the [TS]

00:24:34   first time [TS]

00:24:35   and i read this book and I thought you [TS]

00:24:36   know anybody can write a hugo winner of [TS]

00:24:40   this is hugo winner and i don't mean [TS]

00:24:41   that in a mean way because the ideas are [TS]

00:24:43   great but the characters that's kind of [TS]

00:24:45   mean it and the character yeah okay it's [TS]

00:24:47   kind of mean the characters the [TS]

00:24:48   character interaction [TS]

00:24:49   I you know it didn't didn't seem special [TS]

00:24:53   it-it-it this is a book that really gets [TS]

00:24:56   carried i think by those big ideas and [TS]

00:24:59   and I can see why you'd be disappointed [TS]

00:25:01   at the end because it's true they think [TS]

00:25:02   ideas are sort of played out at the end [TS]

00:25:04   and then it sort of teasing you toward [TS]

00:25:07   whatever the next thing in the series is [TS]

00:25:09   going to be set in the universe but it's [TS]

00:25:11   not a continuation of a previous story [TS]

00:25:14   because that story is over [TS]

00:25:15   come follow the characters you don't [TS]

00:25:17   care about what and you know the Hugo's [TS]

00:25:20   I don't think they base many of the [TS]

00:25:22   Hugo's on actual writing frankly not [TS]

00:25:25   there are well-written Hugo or award [TS]

00:25:28   winners but one this and this isn't [TS]

00:25:30   particularly poorly written either i [TS]

00:25:31   mean you know it's got he can turn a [TS]

00:25:33   phrase [TS]

00:25:34   I mean sure it's a poorly written I just [TS]

00:25:36   saying that it did it didn't strike me a [TS]

00:25:37   lot of these a lot of especially the [TS]

00:25:39   hugo books but books in general reading [TS]

00:25:41   I don't think dang you know this person [TS]

00:25:42   is a is really talented and and you know [TS]

00:25:44   I don't know if I could ever hope to [TS]

00:25:45   write something like that where span was [TS]

00:25:47   like I know how this book it seemed to [TS]

00:25:49   me like I understood how it was put [TS]

00:25:50   together the structure seems very [TS]

00:25:51   straightforward the character [TS]

00:25:52   interaction seemed really [TS]

00:25:53   straightforward i could see i mean i [TS]

00:25:56   could sort of see how it was assembled [TS]

00:25:57   and and that was kind of interesting [TS]

00:25:59   that that do this is a UH award-winning [TS]

00:26:02   novel and yet it didn't it didn't seem [TS]

00:26:04   like magic right i mean the balls and [TS]

00:26:06   like maybe you're standing you're [TS]

00:26:08   standing will sort of next to a stage [TS]

00:26:09   for a magic show and you can sign it [TS]

00:26:11   kind of see what's going on behind the [TS]

00:26:12   scenes but it still makes you appreciate [TS]

00:26:13   the another craft that's willing [TS]

00:26:15   everybody else and it's the penn and [TS]

00:26:18   teller of Hugo winners it has a few [TS]

00:26:20   things in common with this terms of hard [TS]

00:26:21   science we should talk about these this [TS]

00:26:23   pair it actually violates the law of the [TS]

00:26:25   second book is always horrible the [TS]

00:26:28   forges got forge of God anvil of stars [TS]

00:26:30   by Greg bear so 20 was a 20-plus year [TS]

00:26:33   old set of books and the second book [TS]

00:26:35   involves I mean it's this thing where [TS]

00:26:37   it's your first parent / scenario in the [TS]

00:26:39   second book huge amounts of like physics [TS]

00:26:42   and science extremely well-written [TS]

00:26:44   compelling characters [TS]

00:26:46   and it has i think there's a similar i [TS]

00:26:48   was a bit of a similar feel like there's [TS]

00:26:50   all but hey even like a more more [TS]

00:26:53   happening service of the plot but anyway [TS]

00:26:55   I think it might be it could be fun to [TS]

00:26:57   talk about those especially relation to [TS]

00:26:58   the issue of like good writing strong [TS]

00:27:00   plot the first the two books a hugo [TS]

00:27:02   winner right name happened I don't know [TS]

00:27:07   so I i looked up what the other ebooks [TS]

00:27:09   that spin was up against in the hugo the [TS]

00:27:11   2006 Hugo's just because I was curious [TS]

00:27:13   so its up against learning the world by [TS]

00:27:16   chemical McLeod's which I can never just [TS]

00:27:18   loud cloud whatever he's good writer i [TS]

00:27:21   haven't read learning the world up a [TS]

00:27:22   feast for crows by george RR martin ah [TS]

00:27:25   but accelerometer co-vice charles stross [TS]

00:27:28   oh and old man's war by well London is [TS]

00:27:34   always better i would prefer i like [TS]

00:27:36   salty old man's war right now is better [TS]

00:27:38   book event where is good book but i [TS]

00:27:41   think that i think that the Hugo's often [TS]

00:27:44   you come up with the most original idea [TS]

00:27:45   and you when Hugo and i have to say that [TS]

00:27:48   the the time shifting between the the [TS]

00:27:50   spin membrane and the rest of the [TS]

00:27:52   universe in the whole colonizing Mars [TS]

00:27:54   thing is a fantastic idea [TS]

00:27:57   I agree I agree any ideas personal line [TS]

00:28:01   right decor [TS]

00:28:03   that's what I wanted at two ideas that [TS]

00:28:04   the other books only had one that's [TS]

00:28:06   right account for the heroes [TS]

00:28:12   so next up on the agenda is yet another [TS]

00:28:18   hugo winner where what we're doing cutie [TS]

00:28:20   winners today [TS]

00:28:22   Hyperion by Dan Simmons which was [TS]

00:28:27   released in 1989 won the hugo in 1990 [TS]

00:28:30   and uh i really i really like this i [TS]

00:28:36   really like this book so is there [TS]

00:28:38   anybody who doesn't love Hyperion except [TS]

00:28:40   for the last spoiler horn [TS]

00:28:46   two words up I we were the last two [TS]

00:28:52   organizations did that they don't there [TS]

00:28:54   are more of them haha yeah i got my [TS]

00:28:57   opinion is like I just remember this [TS]

00:28:59   thing we're talking about this an email [TS]

00:29:00   it's that the stories the story about [TS]

00:29:02   the million monkeys where this rich man [TS]

00:29:05   develops a computer system this is from [TS]

00:29:07   back in the fifties that will create you [TS]

00:29:09   know every piece of literature and it [TS]

00:29:11   produces this you know randomly and it's [TS]

00:29:14   sort stuff out it produces the greatest [TS]

00:29:15   story ever written except it's missing [TS]

00:29:17   the last chapter and he tries to hire a [TS]

00:29:19   writer friend of his to to finish it and [TS]

00:29:22   I was like that is what I feel about [TS]

00:29:23   with Hyperion is like the one of the [TS]

00:29:25   finest most beautiful science-fiction [TS]

00:29:27   novels that ever read I mean doing is [TS]

00:29:29   terrific [TS]

00:29:30   hyperion i think is gorgeous sort of [TS]

00:29:33   like the sparrow [TS]

00:29:34   oh yes which is its image again don't [TS]

00:29:37   read number two in the sparrow I've read [TS]

00:29:39   that is horrible but the Hyperion is a [TS]

00:29:42   such a beautiful lyrical book and he [TS]

00:29:44   tells so many different stories each of [TS]

00:29:46   them as its own voice and tone your [TS]

00:29:48   thinking who is this guy where did he [TS]

00:29:50   come from how do you create all of these [TS]

00:29:52   universes this you know all the [TS]

00:29:53   different planets interactions this it's [TS]

00:29:56   as if he is living in a parallel [TS]

00:29:57   universe it so beautifully described and [TS]

00:30:00   then what came after is so hideous [TS]

00:30:03   there's no i don't i don't agree with [TS]

00:30:05   that now but let's let's start at the [TS]

00:30:06   beginning here Hyperion is structured in [TS]

00:30:09   a way where there's a framing story [TS]

00:30:11   which is these pilgrims going to the [TS]

00:30:12   time tombs on the planet of Hyperion and [TS]

00:30:15   then in between they are telling their [TS]

00:30:16   individual tails so i guess you could [TS]

00:30:19   liken it to something like lost its [TS]

00:30:20   really much more like like The [TS]

00:30:23   Canterbury Tales where you've got the [TS]

00:30:25   individual tales of the pilgrims on [TS]

00:30:26   their way that's sort of that the [TS]

00:30:28   concept really and it's a and a problem [TS]

00:30:33   i think from the perspective of the [TS]

00:30:35   ending is that this book is about the [TS]

00:30:39   stories told by the people on their [TS]

00:30:40   journey to the time tombs and then they [TS]

00:30:43   get there and that's the end right [TS]

00:30:44   because that's not what this book is [TS]

00:30:46   about it's about it is in a way about [TS]

00:30:48   the setup but it's also about the that [TS]

00:30:50   you know learning who these people are [TS]

00:30:52   on this journey and as that it is cut it [TS]

00:30:55   is brilliant and it is brilliantly [TS]

00:30:56   written it's not just a bunch of good [TS]

00:30:58   ideas in this book is over [TS]

00:30:59   going with good ideas but it's really s [TS]

00:31:02   Simmons is such a great writer and I'd [TS]

00:31:03   actually read some others of his stuff [TS]

00:31:05   before i read this but it's it's just so [TS]

00:31:08   wonderfully written in so many great [TS]

00:31:09   ideas but the ending has the exact [TS]

00:31:11   opposite problem of spin is rather than [TS]

00:31:13   being wound down and disinterested in [TS]

00:31:16   the character huh [TS]

00:31:17   you are incredibly wound up really [TS]

00:31:19   interested in the characters and then it [TS]

00:31:21   ends there's nowhere to go it's in rate [TS]

00:31:24   I wanted to throw the book across the [TS]

00:31:25   room I kept saying he can't resolve this [TS]

00:31:27   in the next three pages he can't resolve [TS]

00:31:28   that the next two pages he didn't [TS]

00:31:30   resolve it the following the Aryan is [TS]

00:31:32   how it was resolved i am actually angry [TS]

00:31:35   thinking about it it was a beautiful [TS]

00:31:36   book and I loved reading it and just [TS]

00:31:38   from the very beginning just the number [TS]

00:31:41   and amount of ideas the pre story the [TS]

00:31:44   first one that gets told is riveting and [TS]

00:31:46   all the way through and then you get to [TS]

00:31:48   the end and it you're you're suddenly [TS]

00:31:49   wily coyote hanging over the cliff with [TS]

00:31:51   a little yipeeeeee sign nowhere to go [TS]

00:31:54   but down [TS]

00:31:56   well or or you can read the sequel which [TS]

00:31:59   glenwood tell you this is a book you [TS]

00:32:01   have to stand alone object that should [TS]

00:32:03   be next should have you had a new law [TS]

00:32:05   that assessment Simmons does this too [TS]

00:32:07   because i read a book of his called [TS]

00:32:08   ileum and yeah i think that I got to the [TS]

00:32:10   end it turned out it was two books it [TS]

00:32:12   was one book split into two you get to [TS]

00:32:14   the end of ilium and it's like it's like [TS]

00:32:16   you're not even at the anti-venom all [TS]

00:32:18   you're like you're like and the battle [TS]

00:32:20   begun [TS]

00:32:21   we-well wait what the yeah and I i gotta [TS]

00:32:23   say i have not read anything by him [TS]

00:32:26   sense because i was so turned off by [TS]

00:32:28   that approach and yet i did read the [TS]

00:32:30   Hyperion Books you go into lord of the [TS]

00:32:31   rings and you know what you're getting [TS]

00:32:33   into [TS]

00:32:34   yeah I think I think I knew that [TS]

00:32:36   Hyperion was a to was a to at the time [TS]

00:32:38   to book series and I was gonna probably [TS]

00:32:41   have to read the second i went i wasn't [TS]

00:32:43   i wanted to the i went to the broke [TS]

00:32:44   cycle knowing what I was getting into [TS]

00:32:46   and that I say you know a years-long [TS]

00:32:47   investment in time I i read Lord of the [TS]

00:32:50   Rings and I don't know what happens [TS]

00:32:51   after photo gets the ring it all turns [TS]

00:32:53   out well though right yeah it's [TS]

00:32:55   everybody's happy like i was wearing [TS]

00:32:57   tonight [TS]

00:32:57   rivendell and then wait a minute photo [TS]

00:32:59   gets the ring woods boiler horn [TS]

00:33:02   yeah well I think I mean I PS contains [TS]

00:33:05   spoilers Lord of the Rings it [TS]

00:33:09   Arthur bruised his jaw so Simmons you [TS]

00:33:12   know it is this it's the far future and [TS]

00:33:14   they're they're always throw in ideas [TS]

00:33:15   like the all thing which is this like a [TS]

00:33:18   collaboration of mines and of artificial [TS]

00:33:20   intelligences and and they've got the [TS]

00:33:22   farcaster portals which let you step [TS]

00:33:24   through from one place to another which [TS]

00:33:26   leads to the natural naturally the [TS]

00:33:29   super-rich would have a have houses [TS]

00:33:31   where each room was on a different [TS]

00:33:33   planet that is far Kelly awesome that [TS]

00:33:36   there would be a river that runs across [TS]

00:33:38   multiple planets and through portals and [TS]

00:33:41   we'll take boats down the river how [TS]

00:33:43   crazy is that you have to say like one [TS]

00:33:45   of Simmons is great abilities like he [TS]

00:33:47   can be incredibly self-indulgent writer [TS]

00:33:49   and some of his writing I cannot stand [TS]

00:33:50   is soaked lying and do that but like the [TS]

00:33:53   best of it is he has you know I don't [TS]

00:33:56   actually know exactly as background but [TS]

00:33:59   he must have been a classicist or he's [TS]

00:34:00   read everything written before you know [TS]

00:34:03   the year 500 CEO because his command of [TS]

00:34:07   the past is so extraordinary and he can [TS]

00:34:09   transmute that into both the characters [TS]

00:34:11   within the novel being aware of the fact [TS]

00:34:13   that the stuff they're living through is [TS]

00:34:15   an allusion to the past they create the [TS]

00:34:16   river toughest because they call it at [TS]

00:34:18   this not because they forgot what it [TS]

00:34:20   means will because that's what they [TS]

00:34:21   remember but you still get that ringing [TS]

00:34:23   of like you know Plato in there as well [TS]

00:34:25   I felt like Hyperion was like a at the [TS]

00:34:28   final exam for a liberal arts education [TS]

00:34:30   it every once in while you say hey I [TS]

00:34:33   know what that means i get that reaction [TS]

00:34:34   when i was when i was in school i was [TS]

00:34:36   like my second year of college some pro [TS]

00:34:39   hipster thuy band came out with an album [TS]

00:34:41   called cloud cuckoo-land and I got the [TS]

00:34:44   reference to Aristophanes the birds and [TS]

00:34:46   I felt like my entire education had been [TS]

00:34:48   justified at that point because I got a [TS]

00:34:50   pop culture reference that eluded to [TS]

00:34:52   classical education from some band but [TS]

00:34:55   never sides in the where they know file [TS]

00:34:56   yeah where are they now file and that's [TS]

00:34:58   that's how I felt really high period may [TS]

00:34:59   have gotten one in ten references but I [TS]

00:35:01   felt incredibly smug everyday it's john [TS]

00:35:03   keats he becomes a major character in [TS]

00:35:07   the sequel by the way John Key is a [TS]

00:35:09   pretty major character in this one too [TS]

00:35:10   well I suppose he is he's like the [TS]

00:35:12   viewpoint characters sequel which is [TS]

00:35:14   strange but disciple and then in the [TS]

00:35:17   Shrike the Shrike is probably like the [TS]

00:35:20   tree of pain and the [TS]

00:35:21   it was around and the Shrike I mean [TS]

00:35:24   again with the eye again with the ideas [TS]

00:35:26   so not only is Hyperion really a set of [TS]

00:35:28   really strong novellas I mean they're [TS]

00:35:30   they're more than short stories so it's [TS]

00:35:32   like a series of novellas with an [TS]

00:35:34   incredibly strong backbone but you also [TS]

00:35:36   have this idea all the ideas and the [TS]

00:35:37   Shrike is I think of across all four [TS]

00:35:41   books even though i really hated them as [TS]

00:35:43   in crippling the series further and [TS]

00:35:45   further its form looks yeah they're not [TS]

00:35:47   to drink a lot of Hyperion Endymion and [TS]

00:35:49   rise i'm not going to read any of them [TS]

00:35:51   out of spite of you I well actually I [TS]

00:35:53   think you might like the fall of [TS]

00:35:54   hyperion I liked it and it's guys have [TS]

00:35:56   an ending it is not horrible the fall of [TS]

00:35:58   Hyperion is fine but it's Endymion and [TS]

00:36:00   rise and Damien feel like feeble-minded [TS]

00:36:02   sequels written by someone else [TS]

00:36:05   compared to the narrative richness of [TS]

00:36:06   the first book but you're right a second [TS]

00:36:08   those six not the six essentially [TS]

00:36:10   novellas the six tails of the six [TS]

00:36:11   characters in that in the book including [TS]

00:36:14   one that we actually i had already read [TS]

00:36:15   and what was an award-winning novell I [TS]

00:36:17   believe all I free remembering serie [TS]

00:36:19   great great stuff and then and then [TS]

00:36:24   you've got this journey to the time [TS]

00:36:26   tombs and the Shrike and a strike is [TS]

00:36:27   this mythical but not mythical character [TS]

00:36:30   who appears and and kills you except [TS]

00:36:33   when he doesn't and the time tombs are [TS]

00:36:36   one of the things that I really love [TS]

00:36:38   about this is the time tombs are a [TS]

00:36:40   unknown structure from the future that [TS]

00:36:43   is passing backward in time and then at [TS]

00:36:45   some point in the past they will open [TS]

00:36:47   contain and they contain things from the [TS]

00:36:50   future which is just as real head [TS]

00:36:51   spinner of an idea that you're watching [TS]

00:36:53   an object that's traveling backward in [TS]

00:36:56   time is a little like a particular [TS]

00:36:57   happen there's a book called the [TS]

00:36:59   chronoliths by that by robert charles [TS]

00:37:02   wilson to its been i think i think maybe [TS]

00:37:04   it is where it's the same thing where [TS]

00:37:06   you kind of turn your head you're like [TS]

00:37:07   oh this is from the future and now has [TS]

00:37:09   come back to the past [TS]

00:37:11   it is like a head scratcher yeah I think [TS]

00:37:14   everybody make it used is it a visit of [TS]

00:37:16   weapon your it's unclear who's in charge [TS]

00:37:18   of the universe you know this is [TS]

00:37:19   uncommon making my snuggle sandwich [TS]

00:37:21   references as my wife but you know in in [TS]

00:37:24   the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy [TS]

00:37:25   universe there actually is a guy in [TS]

00:37:27   charge of the galaxy and you meet him at [TS]

00:37:28   one point is very is very amusing and [TS]

00:37:31   not quite what you'd expect in here it's [TS]

00:37:33   like you know there are eventually I [TS]

00:37:35   remember how far is that series of [TS]

00:37:37   novels you understand that there are [TS]

00:37:38   vast powers at work that it's not a [TS]

00:37:40   local phenomenon a galaxy found [TS]

00:37:42   something that's almost fundamental to [TS]

00:37:45   nature itself there's a fight at the end [TS]

00:37:48   of the universe and that's actually if I [TS]

00:37:50   can talk about this little dudes like [TS]

00:37:51   double spoiler alerts they're the [TS]

00:37:54   problem with the Hyperion payer and the [TS]

00:37:57   Endymion pair and that you can read this [TS]

00:37:59   anywhere you read about Endymion is that [TS]

00:38:02   he writes the history of red Hyperion [TS]

00:38:04   you read fall of Hyperion and it's a [TS]

00:38:06   self-contained set of stories then you [TS]

00:38:08   jump 200-something years in the future [TS]

00:38:09   and it's like a whole other ball of wax [TS]

00:38:12   and that thing you read in Hyperion it [TS]

00:38:13   was so beautiful [TS]

00:38:14   well it wasn't really like that in that [TS]

00:38:16   physical description that's in the book [TS]

00:38:17   that physical description was wrong but [TS]

00:38:19   you can't do that [TS]

00:38:21   I understand he wanted to change the [TS]

00:38:22   narrative but you can't say something in [TS]

00:38:24   Hyperion that someone physically saw is [TS]

00:38:27   now described differently i'm like i can [TS]

00:38:30   pick up the other book and read the [TS]

00:38:31   description is the book telling me the [TS]

00:38:33   other copy of the physical book in [TS]

00:38:34   reality is wrong so that it's i would [TS]

00:38:37   just say well it's kinda like back to [TS]

00:38:38   the future to think I i don't disagree [TS]

00:38:41   with a go back over it and like wait a [TS]

00:38:43   second that's not exactly what I'm gonna [TS]

00:38:45   get the reward but I don't think see I'm [TS]

00:38:47   gonna argue though and this is a [TS]

00:38:48   recurring theme about sequels letting [TS]

00:38:50   you down that it doesn't change how [TS]

00:38:52   great this book is no and I think if you [TS]

00:38:55   go in knowing that it that it doesn't [TS]

00:38:57   really have an ending in that there's [TS]

00:38:58   another book required to resolve the [TS]

00:39:00   tales of the of the people it is a great [TS]

00:39:04   ride [TS]

00:39:05   Greg I mean when you agree absolutely [TS]

00:39:06   unquestionably it's a terrific book I [TS]

00:39:09   just wish there was another chapter we [TS]

00:39:11   we shouldn't ones that are not a whole [TS]

00:39:13   other book not three months just one [TS]

00:39:14   more chapter to finish the freakin story [TS]

00:39:17   that i started we should set up a list [TS]

00:39:19   of ultimately start developing a list of [TS]

00:39:21   the books like the great not just like [TS]

00:39:23   greatest you know sci-fi which is hard [TS]

00:39:25   to categorize but it's like you know the [TS]

00:39:27   sparrow Hyperion and dune everyone [TS]

00:39:29   should read them if they're interested [TS]

00:39:30   in sci-fi in the least are trying to get [TS]

00:39:32   into it like these three books are [TS]

00:39:33   introduction to different aspects of [TS]

00:39:36   sci-fi and they're fantastically [TS]

00:39:38   interesting to read that's actually how [TS]

00:39:40   I read Hyperion dune is some friends [TS]

00:39:42   were appalled that I haven't read them [TS]

00:39:43   and so they walked me through the hugo [TS]

00:39:45   list instead circle them said this one [TS]

00:39:47   this one this one this one [TS]

00:39:48   I've been reading science fiction my [TS]

00:39:49   whole life and I hadn't read some of the [TS]

00:39:51   you know towering classics of the genre [TS]

00:39:54   here's my review of dune it picks up [TS]

00:39:58   after the after the first 200 pages [TS]

00:40:00   starts good at a dozen going to 12 [TS]

00:40:04   minutes but in the desert yeah once [TS]

00:40:06   using the desert it's a whole different [TS]

00:40:07   book sure end of Barrow very Doria [TS]

00:40:09   wrestles the sparrow which we should [TS]

00:40:11   talk about it some point is it is one of [TS]

00:40:12   the best book I've ever read [TS]

00:40:15   however I will say that I think the last [TS]

00:40:16   hundred pages of it feels like she [TS]

00:40:18   realized she needed to finish and get it [TS]

00:40:20   to a publisher and a lot of her [TS]

00:40:22   description and detailed drops out and [TS]

00:40:24   it becomes about about plot resolution [TS]

00:40:26   yet but doesn't change the fact that I [TS]

00:40:28   love that book it is a hit endings are [TS]

00:40:30   talkin i mean III never look any further [TS]

00:40:32   than a real Stephenson is one of my [TS]

00:40:34   favorite writers yeah it's very early a [TS]

00:40:36   it seemed to have some sort of [TS]

00:40:38   congenital ending problem wishes kiddo [TS]

00:40:41   crash he said that he right on the hands [TS]

00:40:44   he said that yeah I don't write I'm a [TS]

00:40:47   competent enough writer to write the [TS]

00:40:48   ending i intend I wanted him that way [TS]

00:40:50   he's wrong about that one work then [TS]

00:40:52   exactly yeah i mean snow crash is a [TS]

00:40:54   fantastic weekend i think one of the one [TS]

00:40:56   of the best books in the last you know [TS]

00:40:58   30 years but it's just yes that it has [TS]

00:41:02   great it's great all the way up until [TS]

00:41:04   about like the last chapter and you're [TS]

00:41:06   just like wait what [TS]

00:41:07   it's over soon okay chase giant screens [TS]

00:41:10   vital organs destruction of the [TS]

00:41:12   government helicopter chase mafia zodiac [TS]

00:41:14   is the only book he's ever written that [TS]

00:41:16   is actually a coherent story with a [TS]

00:41:18   beginning a middle and an end in sight [TS]

00:41:19   and I've ever do that if you take the [TS]

00:41:21   entire baroque cycle from beginning to [TS]

00:41:23   finish that it takes one giant story [TS]

00:41:25   which actually has a pretty decent [TS]

00:41:27   ending it talk about taking 200 pages [TS]

00:41:29   400 500 pages to get going i loved it [TS]

00:41:31   you gotta warm up with three guys on [TS]

00:41:33   Twitter page novel to get to the end [TS]

00:41:35   I've tried twice to start it and I have [TS]

00:41:37   failed i got a little for the second [TS]

00:41:39   time it's worth it's like absolutely i [TS]

00:41:41   got to be so the undersea and I was like [TS]

00:41:43   all right I don't know what it is worth [TS]

00:41:45   that I love that I and i also love the [TS]

00:41:47   fact that I'm more sure to hook you to [TS]

00:41:49   hook you he said he says you know early [TS]

00:41:51   on I'm gonna have a big pirate battle [TS]

00:41:54   and then there's like not that it has [TS]

00:41:56   nothing to do with basically the rest of [TS]

00:41:58   the book but you know he throws it in [TS]

00:41:59   the beginning to get you hooked a little [TS]

00:42:01   minutes a oh I'll ride for 3,000 pages I [TS]

00:42:04   really dragged out and I was 405 ok now [TS]

00:42:06   we're going [TS]

00:42:07   yeah like two takes that long it takes [TS]

00:42:09   at least halfway through the first look [TS]

00:42:11   there I was just like okay now we're [TS]

00:42:13   getting to it and then the second book [TS]

00:42:14   is fantastic i thought my favorite of [TS]

00:42:16   the entire series but yeah I fingers [TS]

00:42:18   went numb and in the ice storm swept in [TS]

00:42:20   and i just had to climb back down I [TS]

00:42:22   couldn't do it [TS]

00:42:22   I i well knowing that there's 3,000 at [TS]

00:42:25   least you knew there were 3,000 pages [TS]

00:42:26   but we got to the end of this story as [TS]

00:42:28   opposed to something like Hyperion where [TS]

00:42:29   you know you don't know that going in a [TS]

00:42:32   hurry and it can be kind of upsetting [TS]

00:42:33   and it's nice if you're really desperate [TS]

00:42:35   for something to read and you're like oh [TS]

00:42:36   there's a drought of books coming out [TS]

00:42:37   that I want to do something you just you [TS]

00:42:39   just sink yourself in that that's how i [TS]

00:42:41   feel about that about the george RR [TS]

00:42:42   martin I've got that look [TS]

00:42:44   fourth book or whatever it is in his [TS]

00:42:45   series and I'm just that still salted [TS]

00:42:47   away for a lean time because i know that [TS]

00:42:49   it's gonna be forever before regrets the [TS]

00:42:51   next one oh yeah and the best part of [TS]

00:42:53   that is you'll have to read the first [TS]

00:42:54   three before you can even read that just [TS]

00:42:55   you remember what happened doing these [TS]

00:42:57   people again and and it's funny talking [TS]

00:42:59   about Stephenson we may not get to [TS]

00:43:00   Michael shape on today I don't know I [TS]

00:43:02   mean neal stephenson I I think zodiac is [TS]

00:43:04   a really good thing [TS]

00:43:06   Greg mentioned it that I i think it [TS]

00:43:08   holds together and I think it's a really [TS]

00:43:09   good piece of work and i really like the [TS]

00:43:11   diamond age actually i'm not sure i [TS]

00:43:14   think snow crash the first half of snow [TS]

00:43:15   crash is great but then I feel like it [TS]

00:43:17   kinda repeats itself until it's like a [TS]

00:43:19   record [TS]

00:43:21   really you know sort of skipping it [TS]

00:43:22   until it's somebody listen up the needle [TS]

00:43:24   at the end to you know the first half is [TS]

00:43:26   great and then it kind of falls apart I [TS]

00:43:28   wouldn't dug up the big you his first [TS]

00:43:29   book and they're amusing scenes but it's [TS]

00:43:31   it's not worth going to find acceptable [TS]

00:43:33   with a brain surgery [TS]

00:43:35   it's the one that is likely candidate no [TS]

00:43:37   no that that was the one written under a [TS]

00:43:39   pseudonym that came later and I get [TS]

00:43:41   what's called think the student named [TS]

00:43:42   off top even break hehe yeah the the big [TS]

00:43:45   you is written under his name but it was [TS]

00:43:47   something he wrote in college and it's a [TS]

00:43:49   satire / parody of of like a mill [TS]

00:43:53   college where the it's a like an office [TS]

00:43:55   block that the college takes place in [TS]

00:43:58   its just one giant building and there [TS]

00:44:01   were some nice scenes in there were some [TS]

00:44:02   really great scenes but on the whole it [TS]

00:44:04   was just a big mass zodiac is the one [TS]

00:44:07   where I i read zodiac after snow crash [TS]

00:44:08   and I said wow this is great and it was [TS]

00:44:10   you know setting the present day in [TS]

00:44:12   boston and there's a guy with a red [TS]

00:44:14   after nice the eco spiderman spiderman i [TS]

00:44:17   also learned I learned what to do if you [TS]

00:44:19   get pc people arity pcp poisoning no no [TS]

00:44:22   uh-uh shukaku charcoal if you swallow [TS]

00:44:26   Germany PCP is not the polygonal port [TS]

00:44:29   but know that we see what's there is a [TS]

00:44:32   pollution and the individual dust [TS]

00:44:34   yeah maybe right we're just gonna get [TS]

00:44:36   along in the book it's pcbs PCB and you [TS]

00:44:40   chew carpet charcoal which later turned [TS]

00:44:41   out he was with the accuracy and I [TS]

00:44:43   learned a valuable life skill from the [TS]

00:44:45   book if you have if you hadn't talked to [TS]

00:44:47   create ways you can eat some charcoal [TS]

00:44:48   thank you tell you can tell by the [TS]

00:44:50   backend charcoal charcoal is tasty [TS]

00:44:53   alright so we talk about the image [TS]

00:44:55   policemen's union woman new yeah I'm [TS]

00:44:57   refresh my memory on it which is all [TS]

00:45:00   about honestly say i'm reading whenever [TS]

00:45:02   you make a peanut you can use it was a [TS]

00:45:03   couple years ago when i read it but I i [TS]

00:45:05   loved it when i read it it was one of my [TS]

00:45:06   favorite books that you're actually [TS]

00:45:08   recommended to my dad i recommend a lot [TS]

00:45:09   of books to my dad but as he's Jewish i [TS]

00:45:12   thought he and in like sort of you re [TS]

00:45:14   stuff I thought he would get a kick out [TS]

00:45:16   of it [TS]

00:45:16   yeah so it's and it's it's it 11 Hugo it [TS]

00:45:21   is a an alt history story which is why I [TS]

00:45:26   think it qualifies set in late forties I [TS]

00:45:31   believe her early not notice it's is no [TS]

00:45:34   no it's later no it's uh it's modern age [TS]

00:45:36   is elimination day [TS]

00:45:38   yeah this is a vergence period is in the [TS]

00:45:40   early forties that's really growing [TS]

00:45:42   changes right they create a place for [TS]

00:45:44   all the Jews in the world to go because [TS]

00:45:46   Israel is doesn't work is destroyed and [TS]

00:45:50   so they all end up in Sitka Alaska and [TS]

00:45:52   it's 50 years later and there's one of [TS]

00:45:54   these like Hong Kong with a hundred-year [TS]

00:45:55   least there's a 50-year lease on the [TS]

00:45:57   space the space is about to be vacated [TS]

00:46:01   which means that all the Jews in Sitka [TS]

00:46:02   are having to find somewhere else [TS]

00:46:04   somewhere else in the world it's sort of [TS]

00:46:06   a new diaspora and in this there's a [TS]

00:46:09   murder mystery that's told from the [TS]

00:46:11   perspective of the policeman who are [TS]

00:46:14   working in the last days of this Jewish [TS]

00:46:17   enclaves existence if you got to have a [TS]

00:46:20   Shamus if you've got a murder mystery [TS]

00:46:22   you got you got you got to have it and [TS]

00:46:24   there's mysticism in it too so it's not [TS]

00:46:26   just the old history there [TS]

00:46:27   the whole idea of a mystical kind of but [TS]

00:46:32   it's just such a well-done homage to you [TS]

00:46:36   know youryour Raymond Chandler Dashiell [TS]

00:46:38   and Hammett style detective novels oh [TS]

00:46:42   yeah it's 24 tits or LLL construct [TS]

00:46:45   hard-boiled detective story except that [TS]

00:46:47   it's got this quacky alt universe [TS]

00:46:51   setting right which is that I mean it [TS]

00:46:55   the fact that the you know one of the [TS]

00:46:57   best writers in the English language is [TS]

00:47:00   playing in John was like this delight me [TS]

00:47:02   to no end that he he is he [TS]

00:47:05   you know you put him on the list he is I [TS]

00:47:07   would fight to the end of the earth to [TS]

00:47:09   say that Michael Chabon is one of the [TS]

00:47:10   best writers period in the English [TS]

00:47:12   language if not be besties in the top [TS]

00:47:14   five or ten and he writes young adult [TS]

00:47:17   and sci-fi and think I'm gonna handle [TS]

00:47:20   even and comic books and things that are [TS]

00:47:21   kind of asked you and mashing up John [TS]

00:47:23   Roos and then doing amazing man won a [TS]

00:47:25   Pulitzer to ya for kept for Kavalier and [TS]

00:47:27   clay would use this is fantastic but it [TS]

00:47:30   has the same capital and clay has this [TS]

00:47:31   thing that it stung me when I read it [TS]

00:47:33   and it it also stunned me in English [TS]

00:47:35   policemen is uh he's not writing as a [TS]

00:47:38   magical realism is running fully in the [TS]

00:47:40   alternative world that it creates a very [TS]

00:47:41   realistically defined world that [TS]

00:47:44   parallels real development scattering [TS]

00:47:46   clay it's you know it's a comic but it's [TS]

00:47:48   a different duh set of which comic book [TS]

00:47:52   heroes became big right instead of [TS]

00:47:54   Superman it's the escapist and writing [TS]

00:47:56   that book there's a scene that I [TS]

00:47:57   remember a time it wasn't showing that i [TS]

00:48:00   was just so stunned by it because you're [TS]

00:48:02   reading along and he goes to the [TS]

00:48:03   cemetery and is trying to essentially [TS]

00:48:05   commune with his stead have been sort of [TS]

00:48:07   our main character whatever main [TS]

00:48:08   characters turkey with is the dead music [TS]

00:48:11   magician who trained him and he said [TS]

00:48:13   he's not going to show up he's not going [TS]

00:48:14   to show up and he didn't show up and [TS]

00:48:15   then he turns around there is and you're [TS]

00:48:17   like oh wow he just want to just do [TS]

00:48:18   there [TS]

00:48:19   he took me out of this be no it isn't [TS]

00:48:21   easter said we're in the real world [TS]

00:48:22   people die and there's nothing else and [TS]

00:48:25   then over here is the ghost and the same [TS]

00:48:27   thing use policeman where you're you're [TS]

00:48:28   sort of like this guy is not the Machine [TS]

00:48:30   he's not the Messiah this is all sort of [TS]

00:48:33   fever dream and and all you know there's [TS]

00:48:36   all these political plans and all this [TS]

00:48:38   other stuff going on like oh my goodness [TS]

00:48:40   gracious [TS]

00:48:41   he is perhaps you may be less i am maybe [TS]

00:48:43   but he has the the scene when he when [TS]

00:48:47   the wife of the of the rabbi of the [TS]

00:48:50   litter alli is recounting to the [TS]

00:48:55   detective that you know how our son [TS]

00:48:57   visited her right and the son who is may [TS]

00:49:00   or may not be the Messiah is able to eat [TS]

00:49:02   she thinks he's overweight woman and she [TS]

00:49:04   looks at him again and realizes that he [TS]

00:49:06   has no he just made her perceived that [TS]

00:49:07   and you like what what is that is that [TS]

00:49:09   you know a godlike power [TS]

00:49:11   what is his role in Redemption and and [TS]

00:49:14   it's just it just breaks you out of this [TS]

00:49:15   hole you know realistic all history into [TS]

00:49:17   something that's like magical realism it [TS]

00:49:20   isn't [TS]

00:49:20   Wow and that's the end of that seems the [TS]

00:49:25   podcast looks like everyone's just [TS]

00:49:28   wrapped it right now you have that [TS]

00:49:30   moment where you bought into the premise [TS]

00:49:31   and said this is a wacky premise but now [TS]

00:49:33   it's being held [TS]

00:49:34   it's being handled in a real-world [TS]

00:49:36   certain way and then there's that twist [TS]

00:49:38   where he says ah but what if they're [TS]

00:49:41   right and this guy is was is the Messiah [TS]

00:49:44   and uh it's like the end of Miracle on [TS]

00:49:46   thirty-fourth Street and the red calf [TS]

00:49:48   has been born because there's a whole [TS]

00:49:51   thing about the breeding the cows to get [TS]

00:49:53   the red calf that's truly have a redcap [TS]

00:49:55   you know that's really good yet know [TS]

00:49:57   that you know I know it's kit comes up [TS]

00:49:59   in the goddamn spirit as well there's a [TS]

00:50:01   meme the red heifer must be bored the [TS]

00:50:04   red heifer the red heifer in in hyper [TS]

00:50:07   like nothing amusing that there's a [TS]

00:50:10   messiah but not until Endymion [TS]

00:50:12   ah but you know shape on the characters [TS]

00:50:16   are great you do have that cannot neared [TS]

00:50:19   well the pop and his partner [TS]

00:50:24   I mean he's literally you know every [TS]

00:50:26   private I you know from hardwell crime [TS]

00:50:29   fiction right yeah he's got the ex-wife [TS]

00:50:31   and you know he's got you know the [TS]

00:50:34   partner drinking problem drinking [TS]

00:50:36   problem chest problems got a terrible [TS]

00:50:38   chest problem huh what's got his court [TS]

00:50:40   right like every every detective always [TS]

00:50:42   has there there's their little quirk and [TS]

00:50:44   i love i love how well that ship on a [TS]

00:50:47   sort of mixes the the language that he [TS]

00:50:50   uses in like the the the terminology in [TS]

00:50:53   the vocab [TS]

00:50:53   very mixing finish with in such a way [TS]

00:50:57   that it's so seamlessly comes off [TS]

00:50:59   sounding like hard-boiled detective [TS]

00:51:02   speak right in the same way that you [TS]

00:51:04   might call it on like a heater or [TS]

00:51:05   something like it's a kind of all bleeds [TS]

00:51:08   together in it totally works [TS]

00:51:10   I just found that it so well done and so [TS]

00:51:13   engrossing in the way that he just you [TS]

00:51:15   know this is what would happen if you [TS]

00:51:17   had put all these that's very clunky an [TS]

00:51:19   orange people like that in there [TS]

00:51:22   yeah and there's I mean it that in [TS]

00:51:24   comparison with the the whole you know [TS]

00:51:27   substituting sort of instead of the the [TS]

00:51:30   Jews having to deal with the a you know [TS]

00:51:32   Palestinians who are their they're [TS]

00:51:34   sharing this land with the Native [TS]

00:51:36   Americans yielding all sorts of you know [TS]

00:51:39   obviously parallel disputes and and sort [TS]

00:51:43   of interesting meshing of the the native [TS]

00:51:45   religion and Judaism and all these these [TS]

00:51:48   conflicts and anyway you know and they [TS]

00:51:50   want the land and so does the American [TS]

00:51:51   government right right is reminded of [TS]

00:51:53   interesting things about the setting is [TS]

00:51:55   that the the US government is basically [TS]

00:51:57   said it's funny because of course we [TS]

00:51:59   have a US government that's a supporter [TS]

00:52:02   of Israel and has been since it was [TS]

00:52:04   founded and in this novel the US [TS]

00:52:06   government is basically telling all the [TS]

00:52:08   Jews on its soil get beat it [TS]

00:52:09   we're done with you get you know it is a [TS]

00:52:11   very stark contrast and the end you know [TS]

00:52:15   everybody's afraid of being left behind [TS]

00:52:17   and being essentially stateless which is [TS]

00:52:20   you know crazy but that's the situation [TS]

00:52:22   that they're in it such a contrast yeah [TS]

00:52:27   it's me it's a great term as you get it [TS]

00:52:28   right about that you gotta write about [TS]

00:52:29   at some level like the Palestinians or [TS]

00:52:32   stateless people [TS]

00:52:34   yeah but you know with this sort of [TS]

00:52:35   unfamiliar place in the Jews to create [TS]

00:52:37   Israel what things to the Jewish people [TS]

00:52:39   are the Disraeli styling pioneers what [TS]

00:52:42   did they do to make their state and in [TS]

00:52:44   this case they were totally powerless [TS]

00:52:46   like here's the notes godforsaken place [TS]

00:52:48   the frozen north and and you know make [TS]

00:52:51   something of it which they do for 50 [TS]

00:52:53   years and then then get out [TS]

00:52:54   mu mu nu no no more red how not the half [TS]

00:53:03   are not the half four different new [TS]

00:53:05   alright we're communing with our with [TS]

00:53:07   our Judaism apparently if you say so [TS]

00:53:10   I'll run that by my wife Paula mentions [TS]

00:53:13   written [TS]

00:53:14   ah yes now you're speaking German prison [TS]

00:53:17   or is it a little a little a little of [TS]

00:53:20   both you can talk one way you can talk [TS]

00:53:21   to the other [TS]

00:53:22   alright Michael Chabon I'll throw it out [TS]

00:53:26   their Road up young adult novel in 2002 [TS]

00:53:29   called Summerland which is fantastic and [TS]

00:53:31   features a fairyland where the fairies [TS]

00:53:34   all play baseball [TS]

00:53:35   it's always summer time and it is also [TS]

00:53:37   rotate a strange little book called the [TS]

00:53:40   applicable final solution about a [TS]

00:53:43   basically a detective a retired older [TS]

00:53:47   detective who may be familiar if you've [TS]

00:53:48   read a lot of detective fiction [TS]

00:53:50   uh-huh and he wrote he wrote a small [TS]

00:53:53   novel called gentlemen of the road world [TS]

00:53:56   as we truly believe he said he's working [TS]

00:53:58   title with something like jews in Asia [TS]

00:54:00   and basically an accident it its attack [TS]

00:54:03   or a ski is an action book and they've [TS]

00:54:05   got swords and they fight and they do [TS]

00:54:07   you think they're gonna die and then [TS]

00:54:08   they don't die and you think they're [TS]

00:54:09   gonna die and they don't die and it's [TS]

00:54:11   it's hugely fun I mean that's the thing [TS]

00:54:14   about this guy is is his books are not [TS]

00:54:16   snoozes they are they're all really good [TS]

00:54:20   so you know I i actually just read his [TS]

00:54:23   up essay collection manhood for amateurs [TS]

00:54:25   and and that was great too so he's a [TS]

00:54:27   he's one of my favorites and if you're [TS]

00:54:30   going to start [TS]

00:54:31   I mean I guess you start with this one [TS]

00:54:32   and you start with the Amazing [TS]

00:54:34   Adventures of Kavalier and clay which [TS]

00:54:36   you won the Pulitzer for which is a [TS]

00:54:37   terrific masterwork of a book a parallel [TS]

00:54:41   book to that by the way is Carter beats [TS]

00:54:44   the devil out nearly the same time [TS]

00:54:46   finish tonight right that totally [TS]

00:54:48   underrated book and there are many [TS]

00:54:49   things in common I think they're written [TS]

00:54:51   almost the same you know the same here [TS]

00:54:53   as Kavalier and clay but very very [TS]

00:54:55   underrated book again again with the [TS]

00:54:57   magical realism a little bit of it you [TS]

00:54:59   know a little goes a long way and that's [TS]

00:55:01   a Glen David gold that's right that's [TS]

00:55:04   rather that I have a copy that i picked [TS]

00:55:05   this one of the ones i picked up just [TS]

00:55:07   off a whim you know looking at the [TS]

00:55:08   bookshelf and now you know i was at some [TS]

00:55:10   point had like magicians was a very big [TS]

00:55:13   interest of mine and and it looked it [TS]

00:55:15   has great you know cover and sort of [TS]

00:55:17   this old-timey [TS]

00:55:18   Houdini era poster it's just I don't [TS]

00:55:22   know it's something about it intrigued [TS]

00:55:23   me and I picked it up and read it on [TS]

00:55:25   women and it was fantastic i would say [TS]

00:55:27   the two you can pick a better claim one [TS]

00:55:28   hand car beats the devil on the other [TS]

00:55:30   and the very next books to read [TS]

00:55:32   back-to-back they're very similar [TS]

00:55:33   fundamental nature of the different [TS]

00:55:36   writing styles both incredibly good [TS]

00:55:38   reads all right I that's a good [TS]

00:55:41   transition for me to ask you anything [TS]

00:55:43   that you've been reading or that you [TS]

00:55:45   would like to recommend a massive [TS]

00:55:47   incomparable list listening audience I I [TS]

00:55:49   keep putting books down I never do this [TS]

00:55:51   and I've been reading books at the [TS]

00:55:52   suggestion of people on Twitter and on [TS]

00:55:54   this podcast and I got put down week i [TS]

00:55:56   could not proceed through weekend was [TS]

00:55:59   infamous for something no info quick i [TS]

00:56:01   have now you know like I've got but [TS]

00:56:03   haven't read way to come by robert [TS]

00:56:04   sawyer i mentioned that was a hugo [TS]

00:56:06   nominee and that's the blind as the [TS]

00:56:08   blind girl right with the emergent yeah [TS]

00:56:10   internet I having trouble with the [TS]

00:56:12   windup girl to I'm partway into that and [TS]

00:56:13   I know we talked about that before [TS]

00:56:15   it's very it's good it's very difficult [TS]

00:56:17   time finding it's such a it's that it's [TS]

00:56:20   the parts of snow crash or like the era [TS]

00:56:22   the diamond age like this is well where [TS]

00:56:23   there's parts that are so unpleasant and [TS]

00:56:25   gritty actually parts of the girl with [TS]

00:56:27   the dragon tattoo same thing it's like [TS]

00:56:29   you're like man if I can get through [TS]

00:56:30   this part maybe I could read more of it [TS]

00:56:32   but i'm not sure i have the wherewithal [TS]

00:56:33   to like get through all this incredible [TS]

00:56:35   gritty dirty sweaty awfulness but i will [TS]

00:56:38   try [TS]

00:56:39   alright Dan i just read spin some kept i [TS]

00:56:46   can't recommend this book enough but I i [TS]

00:56:49   just bought a book [TS]

00:56:51   um I know it's exciting i don't usually [TS]

00:56:54   buys i usually get stuff out the library [TS]

00:56:56   but i just i had to head to finish been [TS]

00:56:59   so i have been able to read this book [TS]

00:57:00   that i bought last week which i bought [TS]

00:57:02   at a book signing [TS]

00:57:03   while i was previously california by one [TS]

00:57:07   of my favorite it's not my favorite [TS]

00:57:08   author was a woman named Lois McMaster [TS]

00:57:11   Bujold write science fiction and fantasy [TS]

00:57:13   and this book is the latest in quarter [TS]

00:57:17   series called before cozy Gonzaga which [TS]

00:57:21   is kind of a space opera / got pretty [TS]

00:57:26   much everything like her books what's [TS]

00:57:27   greatest for books running run the gamut [TS]

00:57:29   in terms of genre [TS]

00:57:30   of them are sort of more space adventure [TS]

00:57:32   ii some of them are war stories there [TS]

00:57:33   are mysteries romances like it basically [TS]

00:57:36   follows one particular character through [TS]

00:57:39   his entire life and she said during the [TS]

00:57:41   reading that I went to that she is very [TS]

00:57:44   much modeled after CS foresters Horatio [TS]

00:57:47   Hornblower series and it definitely has [TS]

00:57:50   a vibe like that but it's all set in [TS]

00:57:52   space anyway sushi just released the [TS]

00:57:54   most recent novel in the series which is [TS]

00:57:56   called cryo burn which i'm not going to [TS]

00:57:58   read it because i was finishing spins I [TS]

00:58:00   could talk to you guys about it so it's [TS]

00:58:02   sitting there on my desk taunting me and [TS]

00:58:05   report back on that next time i will but [TS]

00:58:08   i will say anyone who is not read her [TS]

00:58:09   series of foreclosing so i got i highly [TS]

00:58:11   recommend it and where we start with [TS]

00:58:13   that one of the wall so it's kind of [TS]

00:58:15   tricky because they're there's actually [TS]

00:58:16   a pair of books that she wrote first [TS]

00:58:17   that deal with the parents of the of the [TS]

00:58:20   person who goes on to be the main [TS]

00:58:21   character the rest of the series but if [TS]

00:58:23   you would like to start with the [TS]

00:58:23   Warriors apprentice which is depending [TS]

00:58:25   on how you look at it the first or third [TS]

00:58:27   book in the series and believable [TS]

00:58:28   available as a free book it's available [TS]

00:58:30   as a free even gonna baney library which [TS]

00:58:33   is one reason i suggested friend is free [TS]

00:58:36   first ones free mmm first book in the [TS]

00:58:38   series issue except unless it's Hyperion [TS]

00:58:40   are doing or something like that after [TS]

00:58:42   pay for it i forgot one we ever got one [TS]

00:58:45   how to live safely in the science [TS]

00:58:46   fictional universes always reading it i [TS]

00:58:48   am reading that too and we will be [TS]

00:58:49   talking about that a future podcast i [TS]

00:58:51   assume perhaps so by Charles you i'm [TS]

00:58:53   reading that right now [TS]

00:58:54   fascinating it is very strange yes or a [TS]

00:58:57   strange book [TS]

00:58:57   Greg are you reading anything i'm kind [TS]

00:58:59   of impressed that I got a quiet hour [TS]

00:59:01   just to record this podcast my own would [TS]

00:59:04   it [TS]

00:59:05   anthem has haunted my nightstand for [TS]

00:59:07   what two years now but it on my right [TS]

00:59:10   side is holding everything down [TS]

00:59:12   that's true that's helping i will read [TS]

00:59:13   anything Neal Stephenson rights [TS]

00:59:15   including like in the beginning was the [TS]

00:59:16   command line and mother earth [TS]

00:59:17   motherboard and I just haven't been able [TS]

00:59:20   to get to it [TS]

00:59:21   I for this twice and I was surprised the [TS]

00:59:23   second reading held up very very well [TS]

00:59:25   and I actually in some ways liked it [TS]

00:59:27   better because it was less confusion and [TS]

00:59:29   suspense about certain things that [TS]

00:59:30   confuse me and suspended me the first [TS]

00:59:32   time every time i'm confused by a book [TS]

00:59:34   that i enjoy i'll go back and reread it [TS]

00:59:36   just because you're not so hung up on [TS]

00:59:38   the details of what's going on and [TS]

00:59:40   you're taking in the bigger picture i am [TS]

00:59:43   reading [TS]

00:59:44   I i am reading how to live safely [TS]

00:59:46   science fictional universe i just [TS]

00:59:47   finished blackout by connie willis which [TS]

00:59:49   is recommended by Dan more'n the sequel [TS]

00:59:52   to to Hugo winners actually to say [TS]

00:59:54   nothing of the dog and domesday book but [TS]

00:59:56   I in the theme of today's show it is [TS]

00:59:59   really one [TS]

00:59:59   really one [TS]

01:00:00   half of a larger novel or the good news [TS]

01:00:04   is that the part second part all-clear [TS]

01:00:06   came out this week or last week but not [TS]

01:00:10   gonna get get ahold of that recently and [TS]

01:00:12   I knew that going in so i knew i was [TS]

01:00:14   sort of going to read have to see me to [TS]

01:00:15   call i was much better than when I did [TS]

01:00:17   not know that and in like got closer and [TS]

01:00:19   closer to the end of what is actually a [TS]

01:00:20   pretty large book yeah I'm started [TS]

01:00:22   thinking how that hello they ever gonna [TS]

01:00:24   get active and it's funny because it is [TS]

01:00:26   you can sort of see where it's going [TS]

01:00:29   with the science fictional aspect of the [TS]

01:00:31   plot was behind where his story but it [TS]

01:00:32   is a historical it's really a historical [TS]

01:00:34   novel about the London Blitz that [TS]

01:00:35   happens to have some time travelers who [TS]

01:00:37   are witnessing it and you see it through [TS]

01:00:39   their eyes but it's not i mean this the [TS]

01:00:41   point of the story is that different [TS]

01:00:43   aspects of people living through the [TS]

01:00:44   Blitz and it's good but it's definitely [TS]

01:00:47   not your rollicking time travel [TS]

01:00:49   adventure it is much more a a sci-fi [TS]

01:00:52   novel that's really a historic it's a [TS]

01:00:54   little more in the vein of the domesday [TS]

01:00:56   book in some ways yeah out of the side [TS]

01:00:59   note is I think we might discuss [TS]

01:01:01   discussing anthologies and short-story [TS]

01:01:03   collections I've read in the last couple [TS]

01:01:05   years I've read a few amazing collection [TS]

01:01:07   of short stories by scifi writers who [TS]

01:01:09   often don't write full-length novels or [TS]

01:01:11   they're probably not their full-length [TS]

01:01:13   novels are not as well regarded as a [TS]

01:01:15   short stories and then maybe [TS]

01:01:16   entertaining to discuss i agree in fact [TS]

01:01:18   i I read a short story collection i [TS]

01:01:20   thought was maybe was it in with DES [TS]

01:01:22   Greg recommended to me [TS]

01:01:24   Greg NOS was it you that depend on the [TS]

01:01:27   island yeah yeah i did i did like them [TS]

01:01:30   yes it was me [TS]

01:01:31   well then what was it do you remember [TS]

01:01:32   that thing you know with the guy with [TS]

01:01:34   the guys that too is terrific [TS]

01:01:37   oh man I can't remember it now it was it [TS]

01:01:39   was really great by a seattle-based [TS]

01:01:40   writer it might be is it that he had a [TS]

01:01:43   story in there about someone who the [TS]

01:01:45   story about the guy who said there's the [TS]

01:01:47   mirror that you can step through and go [TS]

01:01:49   back in time or forward in time [TS]

01:01:51   depending on when your army I go and no [TS]

01:01:54   that was a wardrobe mirror anyway I'll [TS]

01:01:56   alice in wonderland in the show notes [TS]

01:01:58   and this is not a game show you going to [TS]

01:02:00   get me a calamity circus sounds like I'm [TS]

01:02:03   not the internet read the other book [TS]

01:02:06   that I read was the disappearing spoon [TS]

01:02:08   by sam keen and I recommend it highly it [TS]

01:02:11   is popular [TS]

01:02:13   science nonfiction and it's a book about [TS]

01:02:16   the periodic table of the elements and [TS]

01:02:18   let me just say every element has at [TS]

01:02:22   least a chapters worth of wacky [TS]

01:02:24   historical anecdotes about it and it [TS]

01:02:28   takes this kind of this veering bouncing [TS]

01:02:30   around the periodic table to tell you [TS]

01:02:32   about various scientists who learned [TS]

01:02:34   great things before they died young from [TS]

01:02:36   horribly poisoning themselves with [TS]

01:02:38   various elements that the time the book [TS]

01:02:41   disappearing spoon refers to an element [TS]

01:02:44   and I can't remember which one now but [TS]

01:02:45   it's it's a metal whose melting point is [TS]

01:02:48   it about 70 degrees Fahrenheit so you [TS]

01:02:50   can craft a spoon of this metal and stop [TS]

01:02:52   stored in a freezer and then you serve [TS]

01:02:54   it with tea and somebody's tries to stir [TS]

01:02:57   their tea with it and it melts in the [TS]

01:02:59   tea and they go I and and then everybody [TS]

01:03:02   has a laugh and then presumably dies of [TS]

01:03:04   heavy calculate something that'll give [TS]

01:03:05   you this but seriously that's a great [TS]

01:03:07   that's a murder mystery there I would [TS]

01:03:09   have loved that book I write these two [TS]

01:03:11   ladies it's too late to Sammy Sam keen [TS]

01:03:13   has already read it slide right i can [TS]

01:03:15   recommend it in in sort of a bill bryson [TS]

01:03:17   style of its light and fun and yet [TS]

01:03:19   everybody dies is all great but it has [TS]

01:03:22   some great great stories in it so the [TS]

01:03:25   disappearing spearing check it out if [TS]

01:03:28   you want to read about elements because [TS]

01:03:29   let me tell you they're all around us a [TS]

01:03:31   sequel will be about fundamental forces [TS]

01:03:33   will be called the dropped and no it'll [TS]

01:03:35   be about molecules will be for all [TS]

01:03:38   gluons the protest appearing ion I don't [TS]

01:03:41   know it was great so if you like your if [TS]

01:03:43   you like a little science along with [TS]

01:03:44   your science fiction that would be a [TS]

01:03:45   nice little side book to read is [TS]

01:03:48   disappearing spoon that's all i got [TS]

01:03:51   anything else I don't know boy we really [TS]

01:03:57   ended with a bang their this lake and [TS]

01:03:59   just like some of the material into the [TS]

01:04:01   tray woodall died if this part this [TS]

01:04:04   yes yes dear listener now that you've [TS]

01:04:07   reached this point we can tell you the [TS]

01:04:09   most important thing that will make this [TS]

01:04:11   entire podcast revelatory to you you'll [TS]

01:04:14   say well I am so glad that they finally [TS]

01:04:17   brought it all back together [TS]

01:04:18   oh well we're out of time I guess we'll [TS]

01:04:20   bring that up at the beginning of the [TS]

01:04:21   next podcast sad so until then I'm Jason [TS]

01:04:26   snow i would like to thank Mike [TS]

01:04:27   ascot McNulty thank you for being here [TS]

01:04:29   remember me always there always species [TS]

01:04:31   uplands you have been and always will be [TS]

01:04:34   my friend wrong podcast damn its Dan [TS]

01:04:39   Morgan thank you Dan for being on every [TS]

01:04:41   podcast [TS]

01:04:42   well thanks Jason I keep inviting me to [TS]

01:04:44   everybody yes that's right you're you [TS]

01:04:45   know this podcast is over well know it [TS]

01:04:47   is over now [TS]

01:04:48   uh gun fleischmann thank you very much [TS]

01:04:51   for attending you have perfect [TS]

01:04:52   attendance so far and Greg NOS thanks [TS]

01:04:55   for joining us and and becoming one with [TS]

01:04:57   the one with the podcast for the first [TS]

01:04:59   time [TS]

01:05:00   Thank You Regis i want to remind [TS]

01:05:01   everybody movie comes out friday that's [TS]

01:05:03   that's right do we have a clip [TS]

01:05:05   no no there's no clip sorry your movie [TS]

01:05:08   comes out friday that means you like get [TS]

01:05:10   a netflix envelope in the mail this [TS]

01:05:11   before this podcast posts get iMovie 11 [TS]

01:05:13   and make a clip for your movie what we [TS]

01:05:15   also know talk about apple products so [TS]

01:05:17   why would people even think we know [TS]

01:05:19   about apple's certain things are an [TS]

01:05:20   apple spoiler alert porn no now that's [TS]

01:05:24   the whole podcast at warren alright [TS]

01:05:26   until next time thanks for listening to [TS]

01:05:28   be uncomfortable [TS]

01:05:29   goodbye [TS]

01:05:31   this has been the incomparable podcast [TS]

01:05:34   visitor sadly incomparable dot-com [TS]

01:05:38   [Music] [TS]

01:05:45   [Music] [TS]

01:05:54   [Music] [TS]

01:05:57   going to do some extra credit exercise [TS]

01:05:59   and I'm I'm I don't think he really [TS]

01:06:02   understands the concept of extra credit [TS]

01:06:04   I worked with a woman once and her [TS]

01:06:07   husband was a personal trainer he said [TS]

01:06:08   come on come on it'll be fun and so I [TS]

01:06:10   met him at gym at five in the morning [TS]

01:06:11   one day and he he he worked me over like [TS]

01:06:14   a piece of ham and i could not lower my [TS]

01:06:17   arms for a three more days i was walking [TS]

01:06:20   around like a Tyrannosaurus Rex leaning [TS]

01:06:22   over the keyboard to type because I [TS]

01:06:24   didn't have any flexibility in my elbows [TS]

01:06:25   there are so many things that you said [TS]

01:06:28   that were interesting there's the I work [TS]

01:06:30   with a woman once they get that that was [TS]

01:06:35   that was against working over like a ham [TS]

01:06:37   that was it that was it i wasn't aware [TS]

01:06:39   that hands were worked over i think yes [TS]

01:06:42   I i went for the wrong piece of meat i [TS]

01:06:44   should have said side of beef [TS]

01:06:46   you know the whole Rocky Balboa ask take [TS]

01:06:48   all right i just i was imagining like a [TS]

01:06:51   spiral cut ham and has helped people [TS]

01:06:53   coming over handing on it you were a ham [TS]

01:06:56   I was spiral cut and honey glaze and [TS]

01:06:59   honey glazed delicious [TS]

01:07:01   [Music] [TS]