The Talk Show

327: ‘Giddy With Mac-Ness’, With Daniel Jalkut


00:00:00   I wanted to have you on because you've been like me, a Mac user, as long as you can remember,

00:00:06   probably, right? Yeah, well, I mean, I'm not that old. So I can remember times, you know,

00:00:14   I was a little bit late, as far as like the the Mac, like Apple, quote unquote, faithful.

00:00:20   I did not really get into Macs until I was about 16. But it's because I had this like long storied

00:00:28   childhood son of a software engineer, very nerdy, explorative software engineer. So I did the whole

00:00:35   Amiga, various like Unix systems, all that stuff. And then somebody showed me a Mac. And I was like,

00:00:43   Oh, yeah, it was such a great feeling, because to come, not from a situation where the Mac was

00:00:50   offered to me in any like, I wasn't spoon fed the Mac by my parents by my dad, especially he was

00:00:56   like, anti Apple and famously came around to Apple. But I really came to the Mac, like, totally

00:01:03   honestly, like on my own, found it said, Yep, this is for me and to come from like a Unix and Amiga

00:01:10   background and say, You know what, I want to have this, like, the machine that people say,

00:01:16   is less powerful is a toy, etc, etc, something about the, the interface, the forgiveness of the

00:01:23   Mac interface, forgivingness, I guess. I just said, This is for me. And I jumped right on about

00:01:30   1615 16 years old. And so now, given my actual age, that's about 30 years ago, so 30 years of

00:01:37   the Mac. So I guess that counts as almost as long as I can remember. But that's, that's definitely

00:01:43   a lot longer than most people. For me, I think I've told this story. I'm sure I have. I mean,

00:01:51   we're like, this, I just entered in the notes. This is Episode 327 of the podcast. So I'm sure

00:01:58   I've told the story before. I mean, she's 326 episodes, I'm sure I've gotten to it. But for me,

00:02:04   I'm a little bit I think I'm a little bit older than you. But for me in in my high school years,

00:02:10   the Apple two was the shiznit, right? Like, and and it was, it wasn't that I didn't see that the Mac

00:02:19   was, I wasn't against it. But I was sort of against the way that the Mac was a level abstracted

00:02:30   from the machine, right? Like, that the one of the things that people of our age who remember

00:02:37   actually, like the Apple two, being a viable computer is that it, it really did put you right

00:02:47   at the machine, right? And it was, it was. And what I remember very, very specifically, was,

00:02:56   well, I say very specifically, but I don't remember now if it was 11th or 12th grade,

00:03:02   but I think I think it was 12th grade. And I had a programming course at my high school.

00:03:09   And it was just me and one other kid, and they called it like advanced placement programming or

00:03:15   whatever. And there was only one Macintosh, but there were several Apple two GS's. And I loved

00:03:24   the Apple two GS, which was sort of the Macintosh inspired version of the Apple two is the, the,

00:03:32   you know, the last and greatest Apple two. And there was a Macintosh inspired Apple two GS. I

00:03:41   think they even just called it the desktop. Do you remember that? Sort of, but I was, I was an

00:03:49   Amiga kid at that time. And so when you say Apple two GS, speaking of all this reminiscence,

00:03:53   the first thing that comes to mind is Apple to go slow. That's what we call it.

00:03:58   See, we would have been, we much like today, we would have been, we would have been in fisticuffs,

00:04:06   even, even at that age, you know, yeah. Who you call in slow. Yeah. Who you call in slow. But

00:04:11   I remember it. And I remember that there was like at the beginning of the school year, it was like,

00:04:20   you know, you two are going to just do sort of, it was sort of like an independent study, right?

00:04:26   Cause there's only two kids. And, and she was a wonderful teacher and, and a great, great teacher

00:04:31   for computer science. But we, you know, with only two kids in the class, it was clearly going to be

00:04:36   individual. And I remember that there was, it was sort of like, who's going to get the Macintosh

00:04:46   and who's not. And it, it settled itself very easily. And it's funny in hindsight that I was

00:04:55   like, I, I don't want to use that thing. It, the screen is too small. It's black and white.

00:05:01   Right. And a hypercard does not make me, it didn't make it. It was like, this seems weird.

00:05:10   You know, it's like, it's all black and white. I would rather have this thing with the color screen

00:05:15   and the it's both color and a bigger screen. And it's, it actually is like a computer computer.

00:05:22   And it was like, okay, oh, this is great. This, this won't be a contentious issue that we only

00:05:29   have one Macintosh in the computer lab in. And in hindsight, of course I made a terrible mistake.

00:05:35   Right. Yeah. It's really interesting to think back that, you know, Apple, I think its whole history

00:05:42   has been focusing on some features that matter at the exclusion of features that it, you know,

00:05:49   perceives don't matter to its customer base. And when you look back at that very early original

00:05:54   Mac, it's like everybody had gotten used to color on their computer screens. You know, if you had a,

00:06:00   Atari or a Commodore or even an Apple two, you had color of course. And then to look at this

00:06:07   black and white screen, I guess, yeah, you, you really had to appreciate the things the Mac could

00:06:12   do in order to be willing to give up something. So kind of taken for granted. And it is funny too,

00:06:19   that at that era, there were so many options available, right? Like you say, you know,

00:06:25   you were using an Amiga. I know, our friends, at panic, you know, Cable Sasser and, and,

00:06:33   Steven Frank were, were big Amiga users. And the, the Amiga was incredibly appealing, right?

00:06:41   It was, it was cool. There were, there were multiple cool computers available.

00:06:48   Yeah. The Amiga was so cool that, you know, that the like raw capabilities of the computer were so,

00:06:56   you know, unexpected. There was a whole like scene of, they called them just the demos,

00:07:04   right? Demo. You would just download demos that showed off the amazing, like coprocessor that

00:07:11   did graphics, bleeding and stuff. And that was, you know, I guess that's sort of the opposite of

00:07:17   the Mac at that time. Nobody was like, look at what we can do with this like video transformation

00:07:23   thing. But yeah, it was a very interesting, fun time. I'm really glad I ended up following the

00:07:30   Mac. It's funny because I ended up getting into the Mac kind of like on, on the precipice of Apple

00:07:37   going out of business. So I was like, I was kind of going from like one, one like outsider dying,

00:07:44   you know, community, the Commodore Amiga, like, well, maybe this other one will work. And then

00:07:48   it's like, Oh, this one's dying too. But I ended up, you know, as you know, some, some of your

00:07:53   listeners know also that I worked at Apple pretty young. And I was there like when I guess, you know,

00:08:00   it would have been reasonable for us to question whether we'd get our paychecks the next week.

00:08:04   It was like really almost out of business. So it's, it's really gratifying to have ended up

00:08:10   following something that I liked because I valued its merits. And then whoa, what do you know, it's

00:08:16   turns out it's the best and it survived. And it's right now as we see these new Macs come out,

00:08:24   it's like the Macs are definitely the best Macs I've ever seen. And I just can't believe we've

00:08:31   come here now. It's like such a great time. The demos were, it was such a great word,

00:08:39   right? Like sometimes things don't have the right word to describe them. But demos were like

00:08:45   the perfect word. I remember being jealous, right? That, that I didn't have an Amiga to run them

00:08:53   because the best demos were definitely on the Amiga. And, and literally it was, it was the,

00:08:59   what we would now call an app. And it would just be like a thing you would launch and it would run

00:09:07   and it would show something really cool on screen. It would be animated, maybe like a 3d type thing

00:09:16   or whatever it, but just something that looked really cool. And then it would run and then it

00:09:23   would end. And that was it. And it was the whole point of it, right? The closest the Mac had were

00:09:29   screensavers like after dark modules, but they, they clearly weren't as cool. And there were,

00:09:35   there was definitely something to that where the Amiga had capabilities that, that other computers

00:09:42   didn't have. Yeah, for sure. It was stuff, you know, I mentioned it earlier that the specific

00:09:48   chip, the Amiga had was called a, I think it was the graphics coprocessor and someone called it

00:09:53   the copper chip. Right. And it was so renowned within the whole demo scene that like, I think

00:10:00   you would see, you know, like the word copper like floating across the screen and it was a very like,

00:10:06   hackery kind of culture. It was like all the people who were hacking and cracking the games

00:10:13   that you would download pirated or copy, we wouldn't download them, you copy them at disc

00:10:18   duplication parties. We didn't call it piracy at the time. No, it was just getting software. But

00:10:26   all the, it's like the same people who were smart enough and like adventurous enough to

00:10:30   disassemble and reverse engineer all these copy protection schemes were like the same people who

00:10:36   were making these incredible graphics. It's funny because they're, they're the skill set. If I think

00:10:41   back at it is probably the same people also who were being robbed by the piracy probably also

00:10:47   working at the game companies. But yeah, it's a, it was really something else. Yeah. Anybody

00:10:53   who could make a demo that would get any attention, let alone any, you know, like actual renown,

00:10:59   clearly had programming capabilities that either, either they were working for a game company or

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00:14:11   Are you using the new MacBook Pro right now as we speak?

00:14:15   I am using the hell out of the new MacBook Pro.

00:14:18   That is the theme of this episode. And the longer we've gone, the longer, you know,

00:14:27   we were going to record yesterday and you know, blah, blah, blah. The more I go,

00:14:33   the more impressed I am by this machine. I love it. I absolutely love it.

00:14:38   Me too. And I'm really glad that, you know, actually not only yesterday,

00:14:43   but you first got in touch with me a few days ago. I had the MacBook sitting there on my desk,

00:14:49   stuck in migration assistant. And I was like, "I'd love to be on the show, but it's going to be like

00:14:58   three hours of me complaining about the migration assistant." Or lying and saying that, you know,

00:15:05   or just talking about how beautiful the outside of the machine is. And the only interface you've seen

00:15:12   is the dot, dot, dot progress bar of a migration that hasn't completed yet.

00:15:18   It's the most beautiful hang I've ever seen. So I had real bad luck and picking up from like the

00:15:25   vibe on Twitter around our, you know, Slack groups and stuff like that. I'm not the only one. I think,

00:15:32   unfortunately, this is a beautiful, magnificent new series of Macs that for some reason,

00:15:38   people are having more trouble than usual with migration. And my advice to anybody who still

00:15:45   is waiting for theirs, just bite the bullet when you get this thing. I don't know if it's like,

00:15:50   you know, that it has like a slightly less new OS or what, but if I were doing it over, I would,

00:15:58   first things first, plug it in, go into recovery assistant on the new Mac, which you do these days

00:16:04   by just holding down the power key as you start it up and just reinstall, just like go in,

00:16:10   you know, reinstall the OS from scratch. Apple will take care of it. They'll download the latest

00:16:15   version. I don't know for sure that that would have spared me the hassle I went through, but I

00:16:20   ended up there anyway after so much grief. So I would recommend just try that and, you know,

00:16:27   until and unless everyone stops complaining about migration failing. So that was going to be a

00:16:34   horrible episode we were going to record. But now, like you say, every day gets more interesting.

00:16:44   And as I'm speaking to you now, I am staring into the beautiful, to my eyes, gigantic abyss of 24

00:16:54   inch LG monitor. That is the first monitor I've had in probably 10 years. And I'll tell you why,

00:17:05   because I went for the 14 inch book and and you feel like that's not enough screen space

00:17:12   to have as your total desktop. Yeah. And it's one of those things I know, you know,

00:17:17   I know you have vision issues. My vision issues are different, but also changing as I get older.

00:17:24   And I'm looking at this 14 inch MacBook and it's beautiful. And to be honest, I can get by

00:17:29   without an external monitor. But I probably would have just swam in this thing like a fish

00:17:37   as a 20 year old and now as a 46 year old, I am I got it. And I was like, you know what,

00:17:45   I think I made the right choice. But something's not right about this. It's not good in the day to

00:17:51   day use. So I use my MacBook mostly at my desk in my office. So I just like between the time you and

00:17:59   I first started and I was stuck on migration assistant, so much has changed. I started

00:18:05   googling. It's like being a grandparent in the 80s trying to figure out how to buy a VCR.

00:18:12   You know, I'm like, how do you monitor? And I'm like, I don't know what any of these

00:18:17   expressions mean. Like it's all like HDI, you know, whatever. I don't know. It's it's

00:18:22   letters that I don't know. So, you know, chatting with some people who know better than I do,

00:18:28   kind of doing some googling. I came to the conclusion that getting an LG ultra fine

00:18:36   is a good starting point for me anyway, because you can get a screen that's pretty good. And

00:18:43   it's all based around Mac infrastructure. So it's like it assumes you're going to plug a Mac into

00:18:48   it. So now I'm still like I said, I am really I'm in a better mood to that I've been in a long time.

00:18:56   Because I am sitting here talking to you with a new MacBook Pro 14 inch,

00:19:05   plugged in with a single cable to my LG monitor. And it's in clamshell mode. It's closed. I plugged

00:19:13   it in. I didn't even have to open the lid, plugged it in. Screen comes on. I'm I'm off to the races.

00:19:21   My MacBook is charging. It has Ethernet coming in. It has video going out. It has all of my peripherals.

00:19:29   I'm just like, I'm like the grandpa from the 80s who just discovered like, actually, VCRs are

00:19:35   really cool. Or like automatic transmissions are cool, right? Like I just I just hit the

00:19:41   gas pedal and the car goes, you know? Yeah. And also, it's been 10 plus years since I've looked

00:19:50   at a screen that is larger than a 16 inch MacBook Pro. So I'm, I'm just like, I'm really glad I

00:19:58   didn't get anything bigger than 24 inches because it's huge. It's, it isn't it's an interesting

00:20:04   place to start because it is arguably, maybe inarguably, right? The the hole in Apple's

00:20:17   offerings is the the Apple, what is the Apple standalone, big ass display? That doesn't cost

00:20:30   $5,000. Right? Yeah. With an optional $1,000 stand, right? And, again, the the it's not even

00:20:42   just about the cost, you know, that that the pro display XDR is is five slash $6,000. You know,

00:20:50   with the stand and whatever it it's that the pro display costs that much because it has certain

00:20:58   features that do not apply to even if you have great eyesight, truly great, you know, perfect

00:21:07   vision. It it has features, though, that don't really matter to you unless you're in the

00:21:13   professional video editing field and need that level of, of I don't even know what you call it,

00:21:23   but like all the all the reference monitor, right reference monitor type stuff. It's like,

00:21:30   like, let's just say let's just set set the bullet point like, and say $1,500. Right? Let's just say

00:21:40   what if Apple made a $1,500 display, which would be more expensive than almost every third party

00:21:47   display on the market, you know, dollar for dollar, it would still be expensive, there,

00:21:53   there would be plenty of margin in there. Clearly, they could make it right or to not put a

00:22:00   dollar point on it, it just to say, what if they just made a display that was like the 27 inch

00:22:08   iMac? Right? Yeah. Why not? Why just just sell me a display. And you and I know this because

00:22:15   we're on a, you know, group slack. And it I hear it from daring fireball readers all the time.

00:22:25   People who would would buy an iMac the entire iMac just to use as an external display.

00:22:32   Yeah. But they can't because it doesn't, it doesn't the IMAX don't support target mode anymore.

00:22:39   But people are you know, that that is something people are willing to pay for. They're like,

00:22:44   I would buy the entire iMac, you know, whatever it costs, and just use it as a display from my

00:22:54   MacBook Pro or whatever that you know, they want to plug into it. The L and maybe Apple's answer

00:23:03   is just you, you know, hey, listen to us. You know, we partnered with LG several years ago

00:23:10   that that's our answer. Our answer is the LG 4k. Yeah, well, or 5k, right? 5k though,

00:23:18   here's the funny thing. So I'm so out of it. And I don't I didn't understand I just kind of

00:23:21   I fell for the group think a little bit like everyone keeps saying, you know, the LG 5k is

00:23:27   the best thing until Apple comes out with something that of their own that is like comparable. And I

00:23:33   was just kind of thinking, well, I guess that's the thing I need to wait for is the whatever.

00:23:38   And now I'm looking at this map, the monitor I got for like 700 bucks, which is not cheap for

00:23:44   a 24 inch monitor. I've come to learn. I have no idea. I didn't either. No. And but it's perfect.

00:23:54   I don't need anything else. And it turns out like I was just kind of going along for the ride with

00:23:59   everybody saying like, well, it's too bad. In fact, like the the I'm looking at it right now,

00:24:05   the the bezel is like a nice, like smooth subdued kind of charcoal. The LG logo is very modest. I

00:24:14   don't know. I'm like, I'm not I'm not I don't have a problem with this. I am in good position.

00:24:19   Well, and I that that is kind of what I think maybe, you know, nobody at Apple, you know,

00:24:25   Greg Joswiak has not texted me and said, Hey, hey grooves, you know,

00:24:31   groups. That's what he always calls you. He should, you should. You know, the LG,

00:24:39   that's the answer. You know, we worked with him on it. But it's like, I have heard that and and

00:24:45   it's popped up a lot in the last 10 days or so as people have started getting their MacBook,

00:24:53   their new MacBook Pros, right? Because there's a huge number of people and I'm sure that a lot of

00:24:59   them are the type of people who listen to my podcast. So they're listening right now. People

00:25:05   who probably just like you, right? Like and you were probably thinking like a year ago, like,

00:25:11   ah, maybe I should buy the M1 MacBook Pro, but I know it's kind of not the pro Pro MacBook Pro,

00:25:21   so I should wait. And they didn't know is it going to be three months, six months? Is it going to be

00:25:26   a whole year turned out it was a whole year. But they're all like, oh, it was worth the wait. This

00:25:33   machine has everything. But the other thing is that they're the type of people who might want

00:25:39   to plug it into a display and I've seen people talking about it. And more or less the answer

00:25:45   from people who own the LG 5k thing is, hey, it's not perfect, but it's actually pretty good. And

00:25:54   a lot of the problems people had early on were addressed by like the B revision version of it.

00:26:03   And, you know, that there wasn't there like a thing with like the shielding or something like

00:26:08   that. Like he couldn't use some equipment next to your monitor or something. Right. I remember that.

00:26:14   Yeah. Yeah. It was like the there was like a shielding issue and like it would screw up your

00:26:19   Wi Fi or something like that. But that's all fixed. And and now it's like, you know, this is actually

00:26:25   you know, a reasonable price and it's, you know, it's more expensive than most 24 inch displays,

00:26:33   but it's also less expensive than an Apple branded 24 inch display would be. And it is intended,

00:26:44   like you said, you know, the assumption is you're going to plug this into a Mac.

00:26:48   Right. And that's a beautiful I had no idea this was even technologically like where things had

00:26:54   gotten. Right. Like I was really skeptical when I plugged in the one USB or not not USB

00:27:01   Thunderbolt three cable, which looks like a USB cable. When I plugged that one cable and I was

00:27:07   really skeptical that it was going to be able to charge my Mac and bring all the peripherals in

00:27:12   and put out the video signal. And the fact that it just works, I feel like I dodged a bullet not

00:27:19   buying a more mainstream, you know, HDMI based monitor. I feel like this is I had no idea last

00:27:28   week when I was still waiting to get the MacBook, I had no idea that the week would unfold in such

00:27:35   a way that I'd end up with a monitor. And I would end up with a much easier setup for like docking

00:27:42   and undocking my work workplace. So explain that to me, though, like, like, like when you

00:27:49   dock and undock, what do you what do you how many things do you have to plug in? One?

00:27:54   One thing? It's the back. It's lit. I'm looking at that's why I'm so enthusiastic. That gives you

00:28:01   it gives you power and puts the puts the display on the external display. We should be doing an

00:28:07   infomercial. Tell me. No, it can't blend. It can't play into a tin can and banana.

00:28:13   And then and then smoothly slice a tomato, right? It even makes Julian fries.

00:28:23   No, yeah, but seriously, you I can't actually tell if you are playing. No, I'm not. I'm honestly not

00:28:31   because I'm I'm you're like me. You're like me. You don't know. I'm much like you where I honestly

00:28:38   have gotten out of touch with the clamshell the state of the art with clamshell. Yeah,

00:28:46   docked into a monitor. So honest to God, I'm being so I'm being completely straightforward here. I

00:28:54   am not playing dumb. Yeah, let me explain it then for you. And for everybody else in the audience

00:28:58   who's like us who had no idea this was the reality. We live in. I have the LG monitor

00:29:06   plugged into power strip. And then into that, I have my MacBook Pro plugged in with the USB

00:29:14   or the sorry, the Thunderbolt three cable. Now, in addition, the monitor has an extra Thunderbolt three

00:29:24   and like three USB C ports. As it happens, the way I was living before was I have one of these

00:29:32   adapters that lets you get Ethernet and USB C and some other things. I have like a chain of USB hubs

00:29:39   right now. I have like a USB hub plugged into the USB C hub that also brings Ethernet. And all of

00:29:49   this stuff is aggregating a mouse keyboard scanner, Ethernet connection, some other junk like some

00:29:57   chart, you know, the cord that my phone plugs into all this junk is going into one USB C port on the

00:30:06   monitor. And all of that is magically conveyed to my Mac. Hmm. And I don't do anything you didn't

00:30:13   have to do anything. Do you need you it needs to be a special cable though, right? Like Thunderbolt

00:30:20   cable, it needs to be a Thunderbolt three cable. This is also something I learned in the last

00:30:25   few weeks or you know, I think I started thinking about it when I was doing my migration assistant.

00:30:29   I was like, like so many people before me, I'm sure like, well, maybe a regular USB cable would

00:30:34   work. You know, got to give it a try. And it doesn't work. And I didn't have I didn't have

00:30:40   a USB C or I'm sorry, a Thunderbolt three cable. So I just did it with Ethernet and that was okay.

00:30:46   But to LG's credit, this is I guess, as much as Apple helped them, Apple didn't help them in the

00:30:55   cable withholding department. Because the LG monitor came with a Thunderbolt three cable. So

00:31:03   out of the box, I plug it in. Oh, this is this is such a great story. Keep going. Keep going. I

00:31:10   plug it into the wall, I plug it into my Mac, and I can't believe it. Oh, like I said, I had to plug

00:31:16   my existing mishmash of USB hubs into the monitor. And suddenly it's I mean, I'm recording on this.

00:31:24   Actually, that's another device I didn't mention I'm recording on this with a Rode podcaster USB

00:31:29   mic plugged into this mishmash. It's like the knee bones connected to the to the leg bone.

00:31:36   You know, I got the road plugged into a USB hub that's plugged into the Ethernet USB C hub that's

00:31:44   plugged into the monitor, which is connected to the MacBook Pro 14 inch in one max with a single

00:31:52   cable and you are hearing my voice in the midst of all this.

00:31:57   It doesn't get any better than that. Now you can see why I'm in such a good mood.

00:32:03   It you really you really do seem like you're in a great mood.

00:32:06   You've never heard me. You've never heard me so bright.

00:32:08   I've known you. We've known each other for 15 years or something 20 years

00:32:12   easily. And and you've never been in a better mood.

00:32:16   I'm just giddy. I'm giddy with madness.

00:32:21   Isn't that though that that kind of is like the honestly going back to when we were young

00:32:30   and that Amiga demo era, the thing the Mac had was the it just works factor.

00:32:39   And if you were technically inclined on the PC side or the Amiga side or whatever other side,

00:32:47   you might say, I don't care about it just works. I'll figure it out. I don't care

00:32:53   if it's a little hard. I just want the better thing. But there it's true, though, right?

00:33:00   Like like what you're describing is is in it just works factor that's like, okay, as

00:33:07   as long as you have the right Thunderbolt cable and you can argue about I personally would argue

00:33:17   that Thunderbolt the whole USB C story is a sort of a mess that these things can plug.

00:33:27   They all have the same plug and they can therefore plug into anything. But you don't know if it's the

00:33:34   right plug, you know, and and you and I've been talking you you talked about your migration

00:33:41   assistant prevails, you know, over the last few days, we have a friend who also got one who

00:33:48   had a bad experience with the with the migration assistant. I had a terrible experience with

00:33:56   migration assistant with a review MacBook. I can't remember if it was my M one last year,

00:34:07   you know that that I got from Apple as the review unit or if it was the one before but it doesn't

00:34:13   really matter. The gist of it is, I thought I had a Thunderbolt cable. And I was trying to do

00:34:20   a Thunderbolt from old machine to new machine. And it was telling me that it was going to take like

00:34:27   17 days. I don't know. It was like ridiculous. And I'm like, what the hell I can't. You know,

00:34:34   I don't have that much time. You know, I can't let this run. And it turned out that it was just

00:34:41   what I thought was a Thunderbolt cable because it was thick. It actually wasn't. It was just a

00:34:48   stupid, too thick USB-C cable. And that made all the difference. And when I went through my box of

00:34:56   crazy cables and got one that actually I knew was Thunderbolt, then the migration assistant took like

00:35:03   an hour and 10 minutes and it was boom and it was done. But that's kind of crazy, right?

00:35:10   In the history of computing, it's totally nuts that you have the exact same connector.

00:35:19   And one of them is not just like a little bit better, it is like totally different

00:35:27   and different universe better. Right. I still can't get over the fact that so much is happening

00:35:33   through this one cable. Right. And then on the other hand, like you said, it would take 17

00:35:38   days to transfer a Mac through the same interface. And it's kind of like, it reminds me of,

00:35:45   you know, another thing that I've like, just decided to never get good at is figuring out

00:35:50   all of the different, I think they're called micro USB or mini USB or all of those little

00:35:57   trapezoidal microscopic things. And for some reason, they never get the one that fits. No,

00:36:04   no, at least like you're saying, at least when it fits, you know, it's the right one. And you

00:36:09   finally get one that fits in there. You're like, well, I don't know what the hell this thing is

00:36:12   called, but it fits. You know, HDMI has gotten the same way, right? Where HDMI has has become

00:36:20   this thing where there are many, many versions of it now. And they all have the same plug.

00:36:27   But if you don't have the right cable that supports the right HDMI standard, you can't do

00:36:36   XYZ. So just a total tangent, but like our home entertainment system, we have one TV in our living

00:36:45   room, we and we only ever use two things to input to it. We have a TiVo, which gets our cable. And

00:36:54   we have Apple TV. And we can use the TV's remote to switch those inputs. But you can mostly like

00:37:04   so the Apple TV can turn off the Apple TV remote can turn off the TV, but it won't turn on the TV.

00:37:12   And I'm 100% certain it's because the HDMI cable isn't right. And it's what what a pain in the ass,

00:37:21   I would so much prefer if every single revision to the HDMI spec had an incompatible dongle,

00:37:30   you know, so that I would know if I have the right one, right? Like,

00:37:34   oh, it doesn't even plug in, then I know that I don't have the right cable.

00:37:37   Yeah, it's funny. Speaking of the migration, my my migration took a little longer than I expected,

00:37:44   because of a similar, very comparable problem with Ethernet, which is same plug,

00:37:51   totally different capacity, right? The whole like, is it a cat five? Oh, my God. Yeah, right. Right.

00:37:57   That's a nightmare. It's so and you have to look, speaking of vision, you have to look at this like

00:38:02   very fuzzy type, like printed on the sheathing of the cable and hope that you can find something

00:38:07   that says cat five or cat six. And then at it's in some instances, I have found misprint cables

00:38:14   claim to be one and then aren't. And you can't tell because like the the computer doesn't like

00:38:19   light up and say, woohoo, we got a cat six or whatever. It just is slower. And so I have it on

00:38:26   my back of my mind to like eradicate cat five cables from my house. Because I will inevitably

00:38:32   get one and think like, this is going to be great. I'm going to do the fastest file transfer

00:38:36   I've ever done. And then it's, you know, a slow one.

00:38:39   I'm going to tell you, I think I've again, I think I've told this story on the podcast before,

00:38:46   but we bought this house like five years ago. And I before we bought it, I, I said I would like cat

00:38:57   six Ethernet to every room and and they showed me on the blueprint, you know, here's where the

00:39:05   Ethernet ports will be. For the most part, it was like, yep, fine, fine, fine. It's like,

00:39:11   you know what, this would be a good room to put to can we can we do one here and there, you know,

00:39:16   and they're like, sure, sure. And and, you know, and but for the most part, you know, it was all

00:39:20   good. And then we walk through the house. And I look and I see them. And I'm like that they all

00:39:28   look good. But I didn't test them, of course. Right. Which of course, is that that's the rookie

00:39:34   move, right? Like when you when you buy a house, you have to test everything like test every spigot

00:39:41   flush every toilet, take it, take it take a dump in every toilet, right? Take a while, right. But

00:39:48   it's true, though. You've got to take a shower in every shower isn't up to spec.

00:39:55   Guess what every single one of them was it the house actually was wired for cat six. So

00:40:07   that's not where I'm going. It was. But every single one of them was a phone port.

00:40:13   Not an ethernet port. So like, the first time I tried to plug something in,

00:40:21   I I'm like, what the hell is this? And I'm like, Oh, my God, they're, they're phone jacks.

00:40:29   And talk about feeling old, right? Because like, who even needs 20 phone jacks around their house?

00:40:39   Like, they took one look at you. And they were like, this guy needs some analog phones.

00:40:43   That's. But it literally was as easy, you know, which was a lot of jacks around the house,

00:40:56   but literally just replacing them with ethernet jacks, fix it, you know, and and that was it. But

00:41:01   I mean, how would a normal person deal with that? Right? Right. Because

00:41:06   and be honest, john, how many are still phone jacks right now? No, I know what I did. I did. I

00:41:14   did the smartest thing possible, which was I paid somebody to replace all of them all of them. Okay.

00:41:22   So instead of like, because you know me well, the way I would have done it was to go to the,

00:41:29   you know, like the one by the Apple TV and the one by where I'm going to put my computer in my office

00:41:36   to do work. I'll fix these two and leave the rest. No, I instead I paid somebody to come in. And we

00:41:44   because we had other stuff, smart home type integration stuff. And I'm like, can you guys

00:41:50   do you guys and I explained the problem to them and like, oh, we could fix that. And I'm like,

00:41:53   Oh, my God, will you please just go through this house and fix every one of them? Because the other

00:41:58   the side B of the problem is down here in my podcast cave basement is where our data closet is.

00:42:09   And that's where our cable comes in to the house. And the other thing was that all of those I think

00:42:18   I seriously think it's about 2025 cables from around the house. They were all unlabeled.

00:42:25   And again, not the sort of thing that I anticipated. And I would have if I had known

00:42:34   I would have complained vociferously and said, I'm not I'm not taking ownership of the house

00:42:40   until you label them. Instead, I found out about this after we had purchased the house.

00:42:48   But I was like, the other thing is these and I was like, come down here. I was like,

00:42:52   take a look at this. And it was just this. You know, it's not just one octopus. It's like

00:43:00   three octopuses together. Yeah, 24 things and they're all unlabeled. They're all blue. There's

00:43:10   no difference in the color. And I'm like, can you label this and they did like the most amazing

00:43:17   labeling job. You know what I mean? Like now it's like the Library of Congress where it is like

00:43:23   third floor guest room front, blah, blah, blah, you know, and it's like, oh, this is

00:43:31   it. I'm never going to use this ethernet cable, but I'm so glad it's like,

00:43:36   so glad you know which one it is. I'm so glad. It's probably the kind of thing where if you are

00:43:41   not you or I was just fixing it ourselves, like just putting in our own port, we would just do

00:43:46   it and plug in a computer and if it works great, but like they probably are professional enough

00:43:51   that they like did a line test or something. No, yes, they did. They did. And so then at that

00:43:56   point, it's no big deal for them to also to just like pop on a label because they're testing it.

00:44:01   They know they're at both ends. Yeah, but why didn't the people who installed it in the first

00:44:05   place do that? Right? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they put phone jacks.

00:44:12   Maybe. Maybe that was the clue. Maybe. Maybe. All right, let me take a break here and thank our next

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00:47:40   Christmas wish list. You can cheat because the show will not come out for a day.

00:47:49   That's right. I can cheat, but I have to either just buy them for myself right now,

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00:48:00   These look great, and I've had it on my list. One of these years, I'm going to get one of them.

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00:48:12   All right. All right. All right. Let's talk about the new MacBook Pro.

00:48:16   I don't know what order to talk about stuff. I don't know if this is a stupid gimmick or not,

00:48:22   but I'm thinking let's just go top left to bottom right. Let's talk about the actual

00:48:34   display. There's the rounded corners in the top left and top right. There are square corners

00:48:45   at the bottom. If you had told me that at some point, I would have thought that rings

00:48:57   untrue to me. Either all four corners should be rounded or none should be rounded, but in

00:49:05   actual practice, I actually love it. I'm curious what you think about the rounded corners.

00:49:15   It really hasn't bothered me at all. Something kind of curious I noticed the other day,

00:49:21   somebody actually brought it to my attention. Anybody who's lucky enough to have one of

00:49:24   these things already can try this out if you haven't. The rounded corner at the top

00:49:29   actually blocks the mouse. If you go up there, and it's kind of weird because you can go behind

00:49:36   the notch. It's a pointless accommodation, but it's kind of fun that you can't even go there.

00:49:46   It doesn't bother me. It's like the shape, it looks good. I'm looking at it right now.

00:49:51   Actually, you started talking about this. I popped open my clamshell so I can look at the

00:49:57   beautiful screen. I think I'm totally happy with that. It doesn't demand symmetry. It would be

00:50:07   horrible if the left was rounded and the right wasn't. To me, it works because the actual

00:50:19   screen corner is so close to the actual physical corner that it has to be rounded. The bezel is so

00:50:32   small that if it weren't rounded, it would actually have to be further from the corner.

00:50:43   Yeah, it would look awkward. I'm looking at it now, and whatever the radius of the curve,

00:50:52   to my eye anyway, it very closely matches the radius of the case. It makes the bezel have a

00:51:02   continuity as if it's a bent strip. If it were to come to a point there, it would look clumsy.

00:51:11   If I look at the bottom, the same issue doesn't apply because there's all that extra space at

00:51:16   the bottom. Also, because the case of the keyboard part of the MacBook blocks the vision of the

00:51:23   rounded corner of the bottom. In the old days, and I actually think it's relevant, it's not just

00:51:35   a trip down memory lane, but I do think it's relevant that the original 1980s era

00:51:44   Macs had rounded corners, but they were done in software. That's what you're talking about,

00:51:54   where you could actually put the arrow cursor up into the corner beyond the round-wrecked

00:52:04   boundary of the screen display. Famously, that would be how you would invoke the screensaver,

00:52:11   if you had After Dark or whatever your screensaver was. You might have it set to,

00:52:19   "Hey, if I put my mouse in the absolute top right corner, trigger the screensaver." Then you could

00:52:29   walk away from your computer and you'd know the display wouldn't burn in, which again, is sort of

00:52:35   an old thing to be worried about. But you could see the mouse, the arrow, go into that region,

00:52:43   whereas now it's actually, like you said, it's literally like a hard boundary, even in software,

00:52:52   and mouse is prevented from going up there. As you run the mouse pointer into the corners at the top,

00:52:59   either side of the top, even in software, it's a hard boundary.

00:53:04   Yeah, this is a really dangerous topic. I'm really glad I don't have the top corners of my Mac

00:53:10   set to sleep or shut down, because while we're recording the show, I'm realizing I can't just

00:53:15   go willy-nilly into every corner. Now that I'm looking at the menu bar actually on,

00:53:21   I have one visual, while we're still talking about the top of the MacBook Pro, I have one

00:53:25   visual gripe, which is I think the taller menu bar and the relatively small font size of the menus,

00:53:36   it looks a little wrong to me. I think these menu titles are kind of swimming in an ocean of menu

00:53:43   bar. So that's my gripe. I had to have one bad mood reaction. It can obviously fix that in

00:53:51   software if they want to. But if I look back at my external monitor now, it's like the proportions of

00:53:56   the font to the menu bar are right in the fallback non-notch situation.

00:54:05   I wonder about that, because there was a rumor that somehow broke out just days before

00:54:16   the announcement event that there might be a notch. It's sort of the way rumors happen,

00:54:24   where the closer you get to the event, the more people know about it, and the more likely

00:54:28   something is to leak. But clearly, for as long as Apple has been working on this, they've more

00:54:36   or less kept it under wraps, right? Because the rumor of a notch literally only came out 72 hours

00:54:44   before the event. I don't blame Apple. I know that's what Apple likes to do. They like to

00:54:51   announce things and have as many things that could be surprising be genuine surprises to everybody.

00:55:00   But I can't help but think, though, that by keeping it under wraps, that maybe more eyeballs

00:55:11   on it would have gotten a better proportion of font size to menu bar height. Ordinarily,

00:55:19   it's the sort of thing that I might have very specific notes on and say, "I just think what

00:55:25   you should do is instead of setting the menus in 16-point San Francisco, make them 18-point,"

00:55:32   or something like that. I don't even know if that's the answer, but there is something to that.

00:55:41   They look, like you said, swimming to me. And when you select them, like you go to the Edit menu,

00:55:48   the highlighted edit looks just slightly...

00:55:55   It's disconnected from the menu. Instead of bringing the highlight...

00:56:02   If you click on a regular menu bar item, the highlight of the menu item almost goes flush

00:56:09   to the menu that appears below it. In fact, it's just like a one-pixel separation. And on the

00:56:16   MacBook Pro with the notch, it's like a good, I guess, maybe six pixels or something. I don't know,

00:56:23   six points. And it looks a little weird, but it doesn't look like... And so that was one of the

00:56:28   things I noticed. And it looks weird, but it doesn't look like I'm going to go on a rant weird.

00:56:32   I'll get used to it. And here's an example where they could have easily made a mistake where

00:56:39   you and I would have gone on a rant, which is, thankfully, when you go and you click at the very,

00:56:45   very top of the screen, say above the Edit icon, or Edit menu, it activates. So you can't miss.

00:56:53   This is the whole Fitts' Law thing, right? You go up to the maximum height of your screen, click,

00:56:58   you get a menu. And it's a little weird that you get a menu whose Edit, like menu button title

00:57:05   is highlighted below the point where you clicked. But that's a little weird conceptually, but it's

00:57:12   perfect usability-wise. Right. The arrow cursor is actually above the highlighted area of the

00:57:20   selected menu. We have to talk about the notch, right? I mean, I'm fine with it overall. And

00:57:31   I even predicted it. It's a stupid... You know me well enough to know that...

00:57:40   Why would I write my prediction post two hours before the event? It's stupid. But I like to do

00:57:52   that. I just want to put my money on the table, more or less. And... You're always one for a bad

00:58:00   bet. Yeah. That is literally... It's on my birth certificate. It's my middle name. Always down for

00:58:10   a bad bet, John Gruber. I was mostly right. And the one thing I was wrong about, I was like,

00:58:19   this last minute weekend rumor of a notch, no way. And I put that in writing. And of course,

00:58:28   turns out there is a notch. But in practice, it's fine. And it's fine because

00:58:37   the screen really is so close to the borders that there almost has to be something. It's exactly

00:58:50   like the iPhone notch, where it's like... I guess in theory, maybe someday Apple will come up with

00:58:57   some technology to shoot these cameras through the display. But barring such technology,

00:59:07   you either have to have a notch or you have to have a bezel that runs the entire width of the

00:59:14   display. And I think that on the Mac, even more than the iPhone, it actually makes a lot of sense

00:59:22   because it's almost a celebration of the menu bar, which is sort of like this weird hallmark of the

00:59:32   Mac user interface. That there's this thing at the top of the display, it's always there.

00:59:39   It doesn't matter which app you're in, there's going to be a menu bar. It's going to be like

00:59:46   20 pixels or 24 pixels now or whatever size it is at the top of the display. It's sort of the

00:59:53   hallmark of the Mac user interface. And on the Mac, the notch, even though it interrupts the

00:59:59   menu bar, it is sort of a celebration of the menu bar because it's like the whole reason it kind of

01:00:08   works on these new MacBook Pros is that, well, it's not like, oh, a couple of apps have a menu

01:00:20   bar at the top of the screen and therefore the notch is just interrupting that. No, it's every

01:00:28   app. So there's a reason for it to be there. And the basic idea that the region under the menu bar

01:00:37   is still a 16 to 10 aspect ratio area, it actually is more, it sort of cements the menu bar, right?

01:00:49   As like a permanent fixture. And I love the menu bar. So I'm down with it.

01:00:57   Yeah. And I was thinking as you were talking that I think the concern, the first concern that comes

01:01:04   to people's mind is, is this thing going to distract me? That's what people thought with

01:01:08   the iPhone too. And as I was thinking about that, I sort of realized we've been conditioned

01:01:15   for the entire history of the Mac to not be distracted by the menu bar, right? It's always

01:01:21   been there. It's always been irrelevant to the specific task at hand. Like you're focused on

01:01:29   writing or illustrating something or chatting with somebody or browsing the web, and you go to the

01:01:36   menu bar when you need to do something, but it's there, it's persistent. And we are so trained to

01:01:42   ignore it that I think it's ridiculous to think, to imagine that an relatively in obtrusive black

01:01:50   rectangle in the menu bar is going to meaningfully distract anybody. Do you know,

01:01:57   do you remember to revisit our, when we first started using the Mac discussion,

01:02:04   were you a system six user or did you start in the system seven era system seven? Yes. Yeah. So

01:02:12   the, the, one of the controversies with system seven and was that they made the Apple logo

01:02:19   color. Oh, and in system six and earlier, because they were mostly focused on

01:02:27   black and white displays, the Apple menu was black, which is just black, which is, which it has been,

01:02:33   you know, in the whole Mac OS 10 era. But when system seven came out, they made the

01:02:40   Apple menu color and the whole argument was, Oh my God, there's this color. Now there's this

01:02:45   six color thing up in the top left corner is going to distract everybody. And it was like,

01:02:49   no, it's actually fine. It's fine. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's it. We're just,

01:02:55   we're focused and trained to pay attention to, like you said, the, the, the rectangle beneath it.

01:03:01   So really what it comes down to, are there, are there compromises and trade-offs with the notch?

01:03:06   Yes. But I think they are mechanical compromises. Like in particular, what happens when,

01:03:13   you know, it's, it's nobody's idea of a great outcome that either of these things happens.

01:03:21   One that the text menus on the left side of the notch end up jumping over and leaving a gap

01:03:26   between, you know, where the notch was, that's just, it's not aesthetic. It's not great.

01:03:30   And then even worse, you know, in the, maybe people didn't test this enough in inside Apple category

01:03:37   is the fact that the status items just disappear underneath the notch.

01:03:46   So regular menu items are the ones that go from the Apple menu to the app name, file, edit, view,

01:03:53   blah, blah, blah, left to right. And the status items are the ones that the little icons for,

01:04:01   and, and, you know, there's, what are the ones that people use from Apple? There's like the

01:04:06   battery one and, yeah, I got a bunch of them up here. I got wifi sound, right? Yeah.

01:04:15   Go ahead. Well, you know, there's a couple of Apple ones, but for the most part, if you just run

01:04:21   with the software that comes from Apple, you don't have a lot, but a lot of third-party apps run

01:04:31   in the menu bar, right? Dropbox and, and, uh, geez, I can't even name all the ones I have,

01:04:38   but, uh, there's tons of them. Right. And I'm sure people who listen to the show have tons and

01:04:46   tons of third, but that's what we're talking about. The status menu items are the ones that go from

01:04:53   top right and go to the left and they meet in the middle, right? The, the, the menu bar items,

01:05:04   you know, and there's, there's always been a, an ability to have an app that has so many menu items.

01:05:12   And as a, uh, nerdy power user, you can have so many status menu apps that, that they collide

01:05:23   and something has to give right. Even without the notch. Yeah. In fact, any developer probably

01:05:30   typically runs into this with X code. It's like X code has a ton of menu items and developers might

01:05:36   be more likely to have little fiddly right menu extras, but yeah, it's, uh, they do collide and

01:05:41   you just have to accept that you lose some menu extras. Right. And, you know, again, to, uh,

01:05:50   to go down memory lane, it arguably, maybe the, uh, you know, there, there used to be the thing

01:05:59   called the control strip, which was sort of the touch bar before there was a touch bar, but you,

01:06:05   you know, on, on the classic Mac OS, a lot of the things that we now run in, in the menu bar

01:06:12   would be control strip items. Right. And arguably, maybe there should be something, you know, uh, a

01:06:21   place other than the menu bar for those items, you know, and that third parties could feel, uh,

01:06:28   unrestricted about adding to, because it wouldn't be as limited in space, but, you know, where we

01:06:38   wound up, maybe, maybe it's better to be simpler and just say there's one menu bar and on the left

01:06:45   side, it's the apps menu items. And on the right side, it's these system-wide things, but the notch

01:06:53   makes it more complicated because it takes, especially on the 14 inch side, takes precious,

01:07:00   uh, pixels away from the middle. Yep. Yeah. It's like one of the, it's like I said, it's,

01:07:08   there is a cost to it. It is a compromise, but it's just so, maybe partly also just cause the

01:07:14   computer is so great. I just don't care. You know, it's like, who cares? I really, I I'll,

01:07:18   I'll get around. I'll get it. I'll get by. Yeah. I feel the same way. And, and, and I'm not one,

01:07:25   not to complain if something annoys me, but it's, it really is the truth that like one day in,

01:07:31   I was like, you know, for one day I was like this notch is really weird and it's really crazy. The

01:07:38   way the mouse just disappears underneath it. Xcode is a perfect example, but there's, you know,

01:07:44   a couple of apps that, that have enough menu items that it expands past that, that 50 yard line for

01:07:53   lack of a better term. Eh, you get used to it. You get used to it. And I think, uh, on the latest ATP,

01:07:58   I think it was Marco who kind of pleaded with their audience, like, cause there's already these

01:08:04   utilities, I guess you can install to try to try to quote unquote, I don't know what do they do,

01:08:08   but make, make things quote unquote back to normal. Um, and he was just like, please just

01:08:13   try it out. Like, don't go out of your way to try to fix this problem if it's not

01:08:17   going to be a problem. And I, I don't know what kind of compromises people are going to try to do.

01:08:22   I didn't even look at what those utilities do, but people have kind of whined about it and said like,

01:08:27   well, they should at least let us just put the whole screen underneath the notch. And

01:08:30   I'm looking at my screen and I'm thinking that would just be so bad. Yeah. That would be,

01:08:35   you know, to intentionally impose extra bezel space on your Mac. It just seems like a bad idea.

01:08:42   Yeah. The only thing I could see being on the table for Apple to, to do at a system level

01:08:50   would be to, to, and clearly in, in their, in their current world, all of these settings,

01:08:58   no matter which platform you're on, they put under accessibility, right? Like accessibility

01:09:04   is where the actual features that you need for accessibility go, but it's also where like UI

01:09:15   tweaks go, right? Right. Like things that you don't really, you can't even say it's an

01:09:20   accessibility thing. It's sort of a taste thing. Um, it, I could see them putting in accessibility,

01:09:27   I think to always treat the menu bar as black so that you don't need, like, uh, I linked to a thing

01:09:34   on daring fireball called top notch. It's a free utility that basically it, it makes the menu bar

01:09:41   black by always putting a black strip at the top of your desktop picture, whatever your desktop

01:09:47   picture is. And again, I linked to it because I think it's clever and it's well done, but I,

01:09:53   even when I linked to it, I was like, I said the same thing the ATP guys or Marco did where it's

01:09:59   like, honestly, you know, this is interesting. I want to let you know about it, but if you get one

01:10:05   of these, you should actually try living with it for a week before you even install it. Right.

01:10:11   Because I think it's going to disappear for you, but I could sort of see Apple adding an option to

01:10:17   say, always make the menu bar black and done. Right. Yeah. Maybe I should take a break and

01:10:24   thank our third sponsor here. Oh, I love this company. Squarespace. Oh my God. Do I love

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01:12:42   Where were we? What were we talking about, Daniel?

01:12:48   We were talking about the menu bar. I happened to just see while I was sitting there looking

01:12:54   at my screen, I saw this little defect that I sent you on iMessage. I don't know if you

01:12:58   have this too. It's like the audio input indicator.

01:13:02   Yeah, yeah. I have the same thing.

01:13:04   FOD for you.

01:13:05   Yeah.

01:13:05   Just a little. That's a growing pain. That's okay.

01:13:07   Again, I think it's a side effect of wanting to keep it secret. Wouldn't you almost be more

01:13:20   surprised if macOS, I'm guessing like 12.2, doesn't have a bunch of features that smart

01:13:31   en up the way anything that goes into menu bar behaves around it?

01:13:36   Yeah.

01:13:36   But one of the most interesting parts about this design, though, with the iPhone, it's like

01:13:42   any phone, including those running Android, could have a notch, and they could do something

01:13:51   to dance around the notch and separate stuff on the left and right.

01:13:59   But for a desktop computer, it actually is perfectly suited to the Mac because of the

01:14:06   menu bar. Whereas a Windows PC, it would be very difficult to, in my opinion, to have a notch

01:14:16   without operating system support, right?

01:14:20   Yeah. I didn't think about that. Yeah. The coincidence that the menu bar has always been

01:14:25   on the top compared to the start bar or whatever.

01:14:29   Right. Which is at the bottom.

01:14:30   I don't know that it makes it more likely that Apple would have pursued this design for the

01:14:42   hardware, but maybe it did. I don't know. It's like the alternate universe where the Mac menu

01:14:55   bar was always at the bottom, like the start menu or something like that, it seems so foreign to me

01:15:03   that it's hard to imagine that it's hard to take it seriously. Right? I don't know. It's like file,

01:15:15   edit, view, et cetera. They feel like they should be at the top of the screen. And I don't know if

01:15:21   that's because they really should be at the top of the screen or that it's so indoctrinated in me

01:15:27   that they are at the top of the screen. I think there's something natural to it,

01:15:32   like in the same way that if you go back to the metaphors that informed the Mac,

01:15:37   like a filing cabinet, you would find it weird if the label for a drawer was all the way at

01:15:44   the bottom of the drawer. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that's exactly right.

01:15:51   There's sort of a meet me at the most natural eye level for the executive level stuff.

01:15:57   But yeah, it certainly did work out. I think you're right. It's really interesting to imagine

01:16:03   how they would have accommodated this. If Apple were bottom-oriented in the screen for their menu

01:16:12   bar, I don't know, would the notch go at the bottom? Could that work? I don't think it would

01:16:19   make good videos for people having all these upshots. But yeah, that's interesting.

01:16:25   Yeah. You could even imagine now that maybe they could fix it with machine learning and adjust the

01:16:33   angle. So even if the camera were at the bottom, it would somehow fake it to make it seem like

01:16:39   it was at a more flattering angle. The nose hair filter.

01:16:49   Wouldn't you love to work on that feature? Yeah.

01:16:51   Well, so we've gotten all the way to the menu bar going from top to bottom.

01:16:58   Right. Well, the other angle, the rest of the MacBook Pro is basically the performance,

01:17:11   right? It is the actual it and it brings the show full circle to what we were talking about when

01:17:19   we were kids where it's like, what is the actual computer? And yeah, it's so fun, right?

01:17:31   It is so fun. And just, I don't think you're trying to gloss over

01:17:37   any of the other qualities of the hardware, but just to say it is the performance, but it's also

01:17:43   the celebrated return of things like MagSafe and the ports. I was musing about the idea,

01:17:49   like what if the timeline of Apple switching to its own architecture for the M1 series Max

01:17:57   happened to coincide with the timeline where they were still stuck in keyboard hell?

01:18:03   Then we would have had like the first of these amazing high performance Max that happened to

01:18:08   have these credit keyboards that nobody liked. And so it all just came together at a time when

01:18:14   I think this keyboard is even better than the previous, the latest Intel MacBook Pros.

01:18:24   Somehow I think it has like a tiny little bit of like ticky tacky,

01:18:29   whatever that clickiness that ultimately proved to be too loud about the butterfly keyboards.

01:18:36   It just has, I feel like a tiny bit of that, but it's still just effortless for me to type on it.

01:18:42   So I think that's great. I think that looking at it right now, I think the decision to make

01:18:48   the black background on the keyboard sort of makes it aesthetically look nice. Overall,

01:18:55   from a hardware point of view, the thought that came into my mind, I think I tweeted about this

01:19:01   yesterday, was it feels like Apple finally made a Mac with as much care put into the hardware design

01:19:10   as they put into the hardware design of iPhones and iPads. It feels like a really, really nice

01:19:17   piece of hardware. And it's been a long time since I felt that way. As much as I loved all the

01:19:22   MacBooks I've had in the past 10 years, it's been a long time since something blew my mind. And this

01:19:29   is kind of blowing my mind. Yeah. Like that they put their A team on it, right?

01:19:34   Yes, exactly. Right. And I mean, there's just, it's like you said earlier, you're not the kind

01:19:40   of person who wouldn't complain about something if you did have a complaint. As you know, I'm not the

01:19:45   kind of person who wouldn't complain. We are just a couple of gripey old men.

01:19:50   Yes. That's all.

01:19:52   We're the CityCare fawning over this thing.

01:19:55   Right. I honestly don't know what to complain about. Right? And I really love, and I've had it

01:20:07   now a little bit longer than you because I got my review unit a week ahead of time, but I love

01:20:15   the shape of this computer in a way that I haven't loved a MacBook in many, many years. I mean,

01:20:25   easily 10 years, like maybe longer. There's like a sort of truth to it. It feels like comparing

01:20:40   the last generation Intel ones or last year's M1 13-inch MacBook Pro, the way that those machines

01:20:54   taper off, if you turn them upside down and they taper off at the edges, it's not false,

01:21:05   but it's also not true. Right? It's like the true depth of the machine should be from the middle,

01:21:14   and these machines are the same thickness from front to back, side to side. And it's

01:21:25   very, very pleasant.

01:21:29   Yeah. There's something ineffable about it. Partly it's just because it's smaller to me,

01:21:36   but I just enjoy holding it and walking around with it. To have a computer where I feel that way,

01:21:42   it's unusual. I have my old Intel MacBook Pro still here. I did the trade-in, but I haven't

01:21:48   sent it in yet. And I'm just touching each of them. And I don't think it's my imagination.

01:21:54   There's also something ever so slightly maybe more slick feeling or smooth feeling about the new

01:22:00   MacBook. I don't know if that's my imagination. It just feels really nice. And to have all of these

01:22:11   hardware, nice feeling, utilitarian, beautiful, high resolution, et cetera, et cetera,

01:22:20   have all these practical things on top of just mind-blowingly high performance.

01:22:30   Because I know people were blown away with the M1s that came out last year,

01:22:35   and everyone at that time was like, "Wow, if this is what the M1s for quote unquote consumers is,

01:22:41   what are the pros going to be like?" And I don't think any of us really knew,

01:22:45   but we were hoping for something kind of like this. And another thought that's been going through

01:22:52   my head as I use this is it's the first time, probably at least since the Intel Macs came out,

01:22:57   that I have felt like I made a substantial leap in performance from one Mac to the next.

01:23:06   And also, that feeling, I miss this feeling because it used to be the feeling back when we

01:23:11   were younger, it used to be that technology was moving along so fast in terms of performance that

01:23:17   you would often have the quote unquote new Mac feeling. And it would be like, "Wow, everything

01:23:23   is so much faster." Everything.

01:23:24   Everything is faster. And I feel like I have performance headroom that I have not felt in at

01:23:32   least probably 15 years. And that's a weird feeling. It's a great feeling. I mean, part of

01:23:38   that is I chose to get like 64 gigs of RAM. I made some choices that make this even better of a Mac

01:23:47   than it could have been. But a lot of it is just the payoff of this transition. And I just think

01:23:53   that it's so inspiring right now as a Mac fan and as a Mac developer for that matter, to just have

01:23:59   this beautiful, functional, high-performance machine that leaves me with so few complaints.

01:24:06   As a Mac user, and I can only imagine that for you as somebody whose professional apps are primarily

01:24:15   on the Mac, as a Mac developer, it is such an assertion of Apple's commitment to the Mac

01:24:26   as a platform. If you go to an Apple store now and buy an iPad Pro, you get an M1 iPad Pro. And

01:24:38   the M1 is both a very, very good and well-received chip for MacBook Airs and consumer-grade 13-inch

01:24:52   MacBook Pros and the Mac Mini, and it's in the 24-inch iMac. These are among the best-reviewed

01:24:59   Macs in memory. But they're the same chip that's in the iPad Pro. Whereas the M1 Pro, and especially

01:25:12   the M1 Macs, they don't even make sense for an iPad. The differences between the regular M1

01:25:24   and the chips in the new MacBook Pros don't even make sense for an iPad. And to me, that

01:25:32   is proof that everything Apple has said over the last five, six years of people doubting

01:25:40   whether Apple is committed to the Mac going forward. Most famously, two, three years ago

01:25:50   during the WWDC keynote where Federighi was like, "Hey, are we moving towards just having

01:25:59   one operating system?" And then a big no dropped down on a slide. To me, this machine is the no.

01:26:12   This is the proof of it. And I also think that in the keynote last week, the whole John Turnus

01:26:19   section was sort of emphasis on that, about airflow and that they're sweating these details

01:26:29   that they wouldn't have to sweat. And they didn't have to do any of this. They could have just

01:26:37   stayed on Intel. Well, yeah. And for that matter, they could have just kept the same hardware

01:26:43   design, the same USB-C port and nothing else. I had the same reaction that you're talking about.

01:26:52   And in fact, on my podcast with Manton Reese, I summed it up like they've been saying for years

01:27:00   that they love the Mac. And this shows that they really do love the Mac. I think the way I

01:27:06   summed it up was you can't be a company that makes this computer without genuinely loving the Mac.

01:27:15   And it's really great to hear because I think you and I share a sort of basic trust of Apple

01:27:25   meeting what they say. And so when they say we love the Mac, I don't doubt it, but you kind of

01:27:31   still want to see the proof. Trust but verify. This is the verify for sure. Right. It really is.

01:27:39   Is there anything else that jumps out to you before we wrap up? I mean, to me, the curious

01:27:47   thing about it, and my son has said the same thing. We got him a 13-inch M1 MacBook Pro last

01:27:57   year. And side by side, one in one hand, one in the other. It is technically, it is officially,

01:28:06   the 14-inch MacBook Pro new one is a half a pound heavier. But he said, "It's weird. I think this

01:28:14   one feels lighter." And I was like, "That's so interesting because I've been thinking the same

01:28:20   thing. Even though I know it's a half pound heavier, it somehow feels lighter. And I think

01:28:27   it's because there's more air inside that the reason they made it thicker side to side

01:28:36   isn't because they filled it with stuff like battery, right?"

01:28:41   They filled it with helium.

01:28:43   No, they filled it with, they gave it more air. And I went back and watched and that John Turnus

01:28:50   section of the keynote, it slid past me watching it live. But in hindsight, it was a major point to

01:29:00   me was that he emphasized that they, he said, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, 50% more air." And that's

01:29:07   all I heard. And I thought, "Oh, that just means that it's got a more serious fan cooling system."

01:29:16   But you go back and what he says is that it circulates 50% more air while running the fans

01:29:25   at a slower speed than last year's 13-inch MacBook Pro with the M1. And part of that could be that it

01:29:35   probably is a smarter fan system, but I also think that it's just more airy inside. I don't know.

01:29:47   I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what the scientific impact of airiness is.

01:29:52   But I don't particularly feel like it's lighter, but I didn't have a lot of time with...

01:30:01   My son has the M1 MacBook 13-inch. Is that what you just said that John says too?

01:30:07   Yeah. Yep.

01:30:07   And I haven't used it much, but I just loved it whenever I get a chance to play around with it.

01:30:14   It was evident to me this was a good line of computers. The thing, since you asked,

01:30:20   if anything else comes to mind before we wrap up, the other appreciative customer/developer

01:30:29   feeling I have lately is repeatedly being surprised how everything just works on this thing.

01:30:36   And it's not new to the M1 Max and Pro necessarily. A lot of it is just like,

01:30:44   "Wow, Rosetta 2 really works." I'm looking at my processes list now with the activity monitor,

01:30:51   and actually another angle of this satisfaction is just how few "Intel" processes... Not "literally

01:31:02   Intel processes," but "Intel." But I have very few Intel processes running on my Mac,

01:31:09   and that's a testament to all the third parties adapting and the developer tools being so

01:31:16   capable of making this transition. The previous transition from PowerPC to Intel was a lot more

01:31:23   complicated for developers. But I'm sitting here talking to you while I scroll through a list of

01:31:30   hundreds of processes. Several, at least 10 or 15, represent third-party apps, and then just a couple

01:31:38   Intel. And everything just works in part because of those third parties porting, but also because

01:31:44   when I do have something that's Intel, it's really true. I don't notice. It's just,

01:31:48   "Eh, Rosetta takes care of it." I also want to just throw out, I think a lot of developers,

01:31:56   especially web developers, are really heavy into the Docker utility. And I've been into this,

01:32:03   just as to the extent that I dip my toes into web stuff, I've been getting into Docker. And

01:32:08   it was one of the concerns I had when, and I think a lot of web developers were concerned,

01:32:13   "What's going to happen to my Intel-based server development stuff?" And I file that under,

01:32:19   it just works, as far as I can tell. It just works. Another magical thing that just,

01:32:25   the continuity here, I keep trying things and then thinking, I'm recording this with, like I said,

01:32:32   with my Rode podcaster plugged in USB through that amazing complex wiring. And then also,

01:32:39   Audio Hijack is running and it's recording it and everything just works. And I couldn't be happier,

01:32:44   from the point of view of a user especially, that I had made this transition from one

01:32:49   architecture to a completely different one and so much stuff just behaves.

01:32:54   I think that my gut fear about that whole angle was that for years, I've foreseen that Apple is

01:33:06   going to move off Intel to their own silicon. Because once the, even just if you just look at a

01:33:15   basic benchmark like Geekbench and when we started getting to the point where iPhones

01:33:22   were getting higher scores for single core benchmarks than MacBook Pros, you're like,

01:33:30   "Well, this is ridiculous." When they were getting close, it seemed like, "Hey, this seems like a

01:33:36   direction Apple's going to go." When the iPhone started getting higher scores, you're like, "Well,

01:33:42   how can they not go this way?" But the fear was that by moving to their own silicon, Apple was

01:33:51   going to kneecap the Mac, right? That it was going to be like, "Well, okay, you can run the Mac,

01:34:02   but it's going to be just on a very limited platform. It'll be faster, but yet more limited."

01:34:12   And in fact, it is actually less limited, right? That they've actually gone back and re-added

01:34:21   HDMI and SD card and MagSafe, and it truly is a Mac. There's nothing about it that feels

01:34:31   limited or hamstrung by the fact that it's based on the silicon platform that started with the iPhone.

01:34:38   Eric Leonard (01:

01:34:39   Right. I think a lot of people have focused on the whole, "Well, you can't run Windows anymore. You

01:34:44   can't do Boot Camp." And I think the significance and the importance of those features of the

01:34:50   compatibility, the ability to run Windows in a VM, ability to boot into Windows, was so big back at

01:34:56   the Intel transition time. It was a huge advantage of the transition. And increasingly, we're just in

01:35:02   a world where running Windows and running Intel binaries in general is not... I don't think it's

01:35:08   as important as it used to be. This is in part because of the predominance of web apps, which is

01:35:15   kind of an existential threat in some ways to both Windows and the Mac. But-

01:35:20   Pete Turner (01;

01:35:21   Separate topic. New... We need a new show for that.

01:35:24   Eric Leonard (01;

01:35:28   I think we're sort of in a historically anomalous period of time where people think they want to run

01:35:37   Intel stuff, but just give it a few years and it might turn out to be that being on an ARM computer

01:35:45   is the most compatible scenario to be on.

01:35:49   Pete Turner Well, you mentioned Docker specifically, and that is,

01:35:54   honestly, based on your effusiveness over it, I'm like, "Hey, I should look at this."

01:36:05   You and John Siracusa are both into it.

01:36:10   Eric Leonard (02;

01:36:12   I have been sort of touting it lately. It's true. Yeah.

01:36:14   Pete Turner But to broaden the scope, just one notch,

01:36:19   well, no pun intended, one notch would be to just say stuff you do in terminal. If you're typing it

01:36:29   in the terminal app, that was exactly the area where I would say we were like, "Okay, I'm sure

01:36:39   Apple's going in their own silicon direction, but is that going to mean... Are they going to ship

01:36:46   Macs without the terminal app?" That felt like it was on the table, that there might be a version

01:36:53   that they would say, "Here's the latest and greatest Mac, and it's based on Apple Silicon,

01:37:01   and this version of macOS no longer has terminal." That felt like it was on the table,

01:37:08   and in fact, they've gone the other way where not only is terminal still there, but you can

01:37:16   literally run Intel binary stuff in the terminal, and it's so fast you never notice. There's no

01:37:24   penalty at all. It actually is faster than running it on an Intel Mac, which is bananas. That's

01:37:32   totally bananas, and it's so unlike the previous transitions like PowerPC to Intel and to really

01:37:41   date ourselves, the 68K to PowerPC, where it was like there were apps that ran great under

01:37:52   emulation under the original, what they called Rosetta when you ran PowerPC apps on Intel.

01:37:58   There were apps that ran great, but you would never, ever argue that any of them ran faster

01:38:04   on the new one than the old one. It was like, "No, it just is great, though. Microsoft Office

01:38:15   hasn't been updated yet, but it still runs just fine." It's bananas that you can run stuff in the

01:38:24   terminal and where you really are measuring it because you're a developer and you want this stuff

01:38:31   to run fast and you actually know how to benchmark it, blah, blah, blah. It's bananas that it runs

01:38:39   faster even though it's still an Intel binary. It's crazy.

01:38:43   Matt

01:38:51   In Intel, I think, through Rosetta, the VM then runs your Intel operating system stuff from Docker,

01:39:05   and it's all really fast. It's great. It's the most adaptable computer I've ever owned,

01:39:11   and I still haven't even dug into the whole fact that you can download and run certain iOS apps on

01:39:18   it. I haven't even gotten there, and it's like, "This thing's amazing."

01:39:21   Dave Asprey

01:39:22   One last thing before we go, and it's the silliest thing, but I'm curious if you have thoughts on it.

01:39:29   I didn't mention it in my review, but I honestly think, and as the week has gone on since publishing

01:39:37   my review, I think that this is not just the best hinge Apple has ever made, but it's amazingly nice.

01:39:48   Like, when you open and close the Mac, do you feel that it has a nicer hinge?

01:39:55   Matt I didn't notice it. So now I'm sitting here

01:39:57   like playing with... I didn't notice it in a good way, but I didn't notice it in a bad way,

01:40:03   which is also good. I'm going to close it at the risk of... This is where I would normally say,

01:40:08   "Okay, my connection might go away." But it seems to work out. It is nice.

01:40:12   Dave It's very nice, right?

01:40:14   Matt It's just one more really fine detail of an altogether great piece of hardware.

01:40:18   I'm a positive person now, John. I don't know if you noticed, but I am now

01:40:25   no longer a cranky, curmudgeonly old man. I'm one of these youthful, "Hello fellow kids" type.

01:40:36   Dave Rejuvenated because of the rejuvenated Mac platform.

01:40:40   Matt Yeah. I'm Steve Buscemi with a

01:40:42   skateboard and I'm just skateboarding through the halls of youth here.

01:40:46   Dave Let's talk about what can we promote from you. So you mentioned your podcast with Manton

01:40:53   Reese. That's Core Intuition, which is a great podcast. One of the very... And I'm not just

01:40:59   saying it because you're on the show. It's one of my favorite podcasts. Core Intuition

01:41:04   is your podcast with Manton Reese. Manton, he's okay. I mean...

01:41:08   Matt He's all right. Manton's great. Manton and I have been doing Core Intuition for

01:41:12   13 years. And yeah, if folks are interested, that's a great way to check out some of my other

01:41:20   opinions, Manton's opinions. We're at coreint.org. I am on Twitter, Daniel Punkass. It's funny. We

01:41:28   just chatted. We just jumped into... Yeah, it's my professional name. I have a much more unrestrained

01:41:35   Twitter for my silly loosey goosey stuff. We just started talking. We didn't talk about

01:41:42   any of this stuff I do, but folks who've heard me on the show before know that I am a Mac developer.

01:41:47   My main app for the Mac is Mars Edit, which is a blog editor. You should check it out. And you can

01:41:52   find out all about my work stuff at redsweater.com, which is so fun for me to say now because within

01:41:59   the past year, after 20 years, I got... I used to be red dash sweater, which is actually not...

01:42:06   It's like red hyphen sweater. And I'm like, "Oh, you know what I mean? Type it in." And now after

01:42:11   like 20 years, last year, I managed to acquire red sweater with no dash. So redsweater.com,

01:42:16   check it out for all your Mac software needs. You don't need to type any punctuation characters

01:42:21   at all. Just redsweater.com. You know Will Shipley of Delicious Monster? He was like my cohort in

01:42:29   anguish of having a dash in the name as a Delicious Dash monster. And I think he finally got so

01:42:34   anguished by it, he quit and went to work for Apple. So... It was the dash. Your only choice

01:42:41   was to either buy the domain name without the dash or go to work for Apple. That's it. Those are the

01:42:48   two choices. And luckily I got the domain so I don't have to go back to Apple. That would be

01:42:53   horrible. But the other apps, people should know about Black Ink is your crossword puzzle app,

01:43:00   which is fantastic and makes me angry every time I open it because I'm very good at small

01:43:10   crosswords and very bad at large ones. It makes me very angry. And of course, Fast Scripts.

01:43:18   And to bring the show full circle is a status menu. Status menu item. Yeah. That's funny. I'm

01:43:27   clicking on it right now in my menu. I'm on the show with you at a horrible time for self-promotion

01:43:34   in a way because I'm on the verge of releasing a new Fast Scripts 3.0 update. Black Ink, I have an

01:43:42   iOS version in the works that I'm trying to get finished. So this is one of those like, "Hey

01:43:48   everybody, check out this great stuff I'm about to do." People can check it out. Anyway, thank you so

01:43:55   Thank you so much, this has absolutely been fun to do.