The Talk Show

220: ‘$270 Worth of Unneeded Keyboards’ With Jim Dalrymple


00:00:00   [music]

00:00:23   Seeing people say I don't have a theme song. I do have a song I just I

00:00:26   Just use it very infrequently. This will make sense

00:00:30   It'll make sense why I brought the old pick and boogers with John out of the out of the archive

00:00:34   Later on in the show it will make sense

00:00:37   But the I don't know if you remember the backstory and that the backstory on that is when I first

00:00:41   Took the show and took it, you know went went solo with it

00:00:47   Dropped the partnership with Dan Benjamin. There was controversy

00:00:52   They're still you could still go to the iTunes store and see comments from people who are very angry about this in 2013 or 2012

00:00:59   Whenever the hell it was but the second week of the show, I believe I had Adam least agor on

00:01:04   And we addressed the controversy and Adam Adam

00:01:09   Said that he doesn't care what I call the show. I could call it picking boogers with John and he would still listen and

00:01:16   And then Adam and his his friend and collaborator Alex Weinstein

00:01:21   Made made a pickin boogers with John team

00:01:24   And that was it that's good so we used it that's good a couple of weeks

00:01:31   Anyway, it'll make sense

00:01:33   Later on in the show. How are you Jim?

00:01:35   I'm doing good. How are you doing? I'm doing great

00:01:41   Feeling good springtime weather's picking up. So you don't have that problem out there in California

00:01:46   You got the yeah, you got good weather 20 24 hours a day seven days a week

00:01:50   365 days a year until a mudslide comes and takes out your house, but

00:01:55   Or an earthquake right here in Philadelphia. We're enjoying

00:01:59   Finally some good weather really nice. Yeah. Well, you're just getting out of the deep freeze. Oh, yeah

00:02:05   It was a long winter really felt like it really really felt like we did very few

00:02:10   nice days in March or April

00:02:12   Lots going on nothing major. I guess have you seen this thing that's picked up again today where I

00:02:21   Believe she's the leading spokesperson on the issue is Casey Casey Johnston. Who's she now an editor at?

00:02:27   At the outline, but she had she had a piece couple months ago about her MacBook Pro keyboard that

00:02:33   Got taken out by a single speck of dust

00:02:37   Yes, and she had a follow-up she published today

00:02:41   That she more she effectively gave up

00:02:43   She got she got it fixed it happened again, and she just gave up sold it back to Apple and has gone back to her

00:02:50   2013

00:02:52   MacBook Pro which she had never gotten rid of and now she's happier

00:02:56   Tons of people online. I don't know what to make of this issue. I don't own one of these devices

00:03:02   We don't have everybody in our house as

00:03:04   like a 2014 ish

00:03:07   MacBook Pro

00:03:09   And I you know, I did not encounter any problems with the keyboard when I was reviewing the new MacBook Pros

00:03:18   What was that 2016 late in 2016?

00:03:21   Yeah, I you know

00:03:24   it was a there was the issue the initial issue with the this current MacBook Pro keyboard design was a

00:03:30   The feel of it because this new butterfly mechanism has less travel, you know

00:03:36   And it's in my in Apple's efforts to make ever thinner devices. They've that this this current keyboard design

00:03:42   Is physically a thinner mechanism?

00:03:45   And the noise right that there were people

00:03:49   Believe Joanna Stern led the way on that issue who just didn't like the sound that it made while typing

00:03:54   Well people aren't talking about those issues anymore

00:03:57   What people are talking about is the fact that keys get stuck apparently, you know

00:04:02   Just you know, you could even people who I believe and I swear are very you know

00:04:06   Swear up and down that they're very careful, you know that are not like eating a sandwich over their keyboard or whatever

00:04:11   Well, but you'd laugh but I'll tell you about my kid the heat because he uses his his MacBook as his TV set

00:04:19   You know like so when he's watching video, it's it's YouTube on his MacBook and he does eat around his keyboard. It's

00:04:26   Disgusting but yet his keys still work perfectly actually he's had a problem with his spacebar, but it you know

00:04:34   Even even when the key got stuck from him being a bit of a

00:04:37   You know a bit crummy around the keyboard it was possible to get it unstuck whereas people you know

00:04:45   Are really running into problems and I I can't verify it. This is the thing. I don't you know it

00:04:50   It seems though that this is

00:04:54   Something that is current to this device like and you never you know people who run into a problem are the people who are gonna

00:05:00   to be vocal about it. Right? And so how many millions of these Mac books are out there

00:05:04   with people who don't have a problem with the keyboard? I don't know. You don't hear

00:05:07   from them. You hear from the people who have the problems. But it certainly seems anecdotally

00:05:11   on Twitter, it certainly seems like there's an awful lot of people who have problems with

00:05:15   this keyboard.

00:05:16   Dr. Jon Olin So I've had this particular problem with

00:05:22   the keyboard twice and that's it.

00:05:28   So you're talking about people eating over their keyboard or doing something over their

00:05:34   keyboard.

00:05:36   I cannot eat over my keyboard but then things get stuck in my beard and fall on the keyboard

00:05:42   anyway an hour later.

00:05:47   So it doesn't matter if I eat over it or not.

00:05:51   I remember a few years back when I tweeted that a P just fell out of my beard onto my

00:05:58   keyboard.

00:05:59   I didn't remember the last time I had a P. Things get stuck in there.

00:06:06   I wouldn't be surprised to find one of 80Q's cars in there.

00:06:09   I almost never eat at my desk.

00:06:14   But even because I have these keyboards for so many years, every couple of years, my beloved

00:06:21   Apple extended keyboard twos, I'll, you know, clean it, I'll just clean the key caps and,

00:06:26   you know, use a little rubbing alcohol and a q tip and get in there and just, you know, make it look

00:06:30   real nice. And it still amazes me once you get in there and start looking in between the gaps of the

00:06:34   keys, how much stuff gets in there, even when you're, you know, it's not like I'm scrubbing up

00:06:39   like a surgeon every time I sit down at my desk, but I, you know, my hands are clean, and I don't

00:06:44   eat there. And still, you get stuff in a keyboard, it happens, you know, that's just the way the

00:06:48   world works. So it just isn't practical. You know, it being defend, you know, being able

00:06:54   to defend against that and be reliable and work in the face of pieces of dust and crumbs,

00:07:01   you know, really ought to be a, you know, essential to any keyboard design. And I feel

00:07:07   like we've reached like it, we've reached like a tipping point on this issue where people

00:07:11   are, you know, Marco Arment has done the same thing, I believe where he's, he went and bought

00:07:17   the Apple still sells a 15-inch MacBook Pro of the old design, you know, with the older style USB

00:07:28   ports and the old keyboard and stuff. You can still buy one of those brand new. So that's what

00:07:33   Marco did. And I guess the ports were part of the issue, but you know, a big part of it's the

00:07:38   keyboard. That's just not a normal thing to happen. And I don't recall, I've been a Mac user since

00:07:45   before there were portable Macs, right? I mean, I remember the original portable Mac.

00:07:50   It was called the portable Mac. It was like a 20 pound suitcase.

00:07:55   Yeah, you needed a wagon to carry it around with you.

00:07:58   Right. But it was I wanted one so bad. It was, it was like, impossibly expensive.

00:08:04   And then there was one that was so hot that, you know, one of the old black ones, I mean,

00:08:10   it was burning up. This this this keyboard thing though the the two times that this has happened

00:08:17   to me and one was on the new style keys with the butterfly on a MacBook Pro and the key wouldn't go

00:08:27   down so clearly there was something stuck and I just I just took my finger and you know banged

00:08:33   it down and whatever it was got loose and that's it. That was one time that something happened and

00:08:41   it happened with one of the older ones a couple years ago it happened and I think it was the

00:08:49   spacebar at that point. Other than that nothing has gone wrong for me and you know I am I don't

00:08:57   abuse the computers but I don't baby them either. I mean I don't think any of us really do.

00:09:03   It can't be that everybody runs into the problem. It has to be some sort of minority of users.

00:09:12   It just seems untenable that if everybody's keyboard did this within weeks. But anecdotally,

00:09:20   it sure seems like whatever that minority is, it's way too big a number. And I'm really curious

00:09:25   how Apple is going to deal with this. There's a fair amount of speculation just based on how long

00:09:29   It's been since the last update that we might see new new MacBooks at WWDC

00:09:34   And I'm really curious if they're doing something with the keyboard, you know to

00:09:40   You know defend against this

00:09:44   I'll be well, I don't know what they'll

00:09:46   what they could do, but I love the new keyboard and I

00:09:52   when when the new remember when the butterfly first came out on the MacBook and

00:09:59   The the travel distance of the keys

00:10:01   Wasn't big enough. I mean it almost felt like you weren't typing at all and it actually took

00:10:07   You know a few days just to get used to typing on that thing. So I

00:10:12   didn't like that but then when they came out with the the MacBook Pro I

00:10:18   they they increase the travel of when you push a key down how far it'll travel down and

00:10:24   And I loved it.

00:10:26   That to me was the perfect thing.

00:10:28   And I would not want to see them go back to anything else.

00:10:32   I mean, the butterfly key works if you hit the corner of it

00:10:37   or whatever, I just, I love it.

00:10:42   - Yeah, I do love that aspect of it.

00:10:43   When it works perfectly, I do,

00:10:45   there is a real premium feel to it.

00:10:48   That aspect that when you press any part of the key,

00:10:51   including the corner and the whole key moves down

00:10:53   at the same time is very nice.

00:10:55   I mean, so in theory, it's a great keyboard,

00:10:58   but in practice, obviously there's a problem.

00:11:00   I mean, I would suggest, and I mean,

00:11:03   Apple's just not the type of company

00:11:04   that ever really quote unquote goes back

00:11:07   to like an old design.

00:11:08   They're not gonna go back to the old keyboard design,

00:11:10   but they've gotta forge ahead

00:11:12   and make a version of this keyboard

00:11:15   or invent an entirely new keyboard

00:11:18   that has the same benefits of it

00:11:20   that is a lot more impervious to specs of DOS.

00:11:24   - Well, Apple continually improves

00:11:30   everything that they make.

00:11:31   So I have no doubt that they're looking at

00:11:35   how to improve this.

00:11:36   But I don't think that they'll change the butterfly design.

00:11:40   I think that the design of what they've done

00:11:44   for the keyboard fits with everything

00:11:50   they were trying to do. So now it's just a matter of somehow dust gets in there and how does that

00:12:00   happen? So maybe they'll put a little rubber catcher or something around the keys. I don't know.

00:12:09   You know what I do want to see? The keyboard I want to see changed? The iPad smart cover

00:12:18   keyboard. I don't like that at all because again these keys... Can't get a crumb in that keyboard.

00:12:27   You can't get a crumb there but those keys on the iPad Smart Cover are small and they have room

00:12:38   to make them bigger. I don't know why they don't but I would like to see bigger keys and they

00:12:44   And they wouldn't have to increase the size of the keyboard.

00:12:47   Just make the keys bigger and make it more like the keyboard on the MacBook

00:12:51   Pro or the MacBook.

00:12:55   And maybe, I don't know, I suppose I don't

00:12:58   mind the texture of what's on there.

00:13:00   I just don't like the small keys.

00:13:03   I would like to see that changed.

00:13:06   It doesn't make any sense to me why the keys are so small on that keyboard.

00:13:11   Yeah, it is a little small.

00:13:13   - Yeah, I just don't like it.

00:13:15   - Does it seem like, do you think that there's enough room

00:13:16   that they could make the keys bigger

00:13:18   without increasing the size of the actual iPad?

00:13:23   - Absolutely.

00:13:26   There's a ton of room in there.

00:13:29   That's what I don't understand.

00:13:32   Why make those keys so small

00:13:34   when there's already room built in there?

00:13:36   I think it would just make it

00:13:40   for a more comfortable experience to sit down

00:13:43   And type on the iPad. I love using my iPad Pro

00:13:47   I really do and and I know that you know like you if I'm gonna sit down and do work. I'm at my Mac

00:13:53   but when I go outside and sit down and I'm you know

00:13:58   Reading or researching stuff and doing a bit of writing maybe

00:14:02   I would love to have a bigger keys. I don't need a bigger keyboard the keyboards big enough, right but bigger keys

00:14:10   Yeah, well, I don't know I worry I because I don't really like that keyboard a lot either

00:14:15   So I've been using my iPad a lot lately with just no cover just you know

00:14:21   Just use the software keyboard or I've been screwing around

00:14:24   Thanks to that bastard Jason Snell who got me to buy another keyboard

00:14:29   Actually reading that

00:14:35   you know when you posted it that

00:14:38   But he convinced her to buy this I I asked I didn't really like it

00:14:42   I mean I asked him what he uses he was he had a post about how he writes it from his kitchen

00:14:49   Just and I do the same thing too. I do it a lot more than I used to but just

00:14:52   Somebody who works at home just get up halfway through the day and sit somewhere else in the house

00:14:58   You know don't sit at the same desk in the same chair for eight straight hours

00:15:04   So I asked him how he worked and he'd said he was using this Matthias. I think that's how you pronounce it laptop Pro

00:15:10   Which is crazy to me. I would never ever use almost never ever used an external keyboard with a laptop

00:15:17   Unless I had like permanently docked a laptop, you know, I wasn't even using it as a laptop, you know

00:15:23   Like if I just got like an eye like a stand and kept my MacBook on my desk almost as like use it as like a desktop

00:15:32   It just seems weird to me that they've marketed a keyboard as being for use with a laptop when laptops come with keyboards

00:15:39   but maybe got you know going back to our

00:15:42   Earlier discussion baby. That's the workaround for everybody with the stuck keys on their macbooks is

00:15:48   using use another keyboard

00:15:50   yeah, anyway, I bought that keyboard and was using it with the iPad and

00:15:55   Did did you like it I

00:16:00   like it more than I like most keyboards and I definitely agree with Jason's assessment that while I would never be confused

00:16:07   Thinking it was an Apple extended keyboard - it's the closest of any other keyboard

00:16:13   In feel to an Apple extended keyboard - keys that I've ever used

00:16:18   including several

00:16:21   keyboards from the same company Mattias over the years that were advertised as being

00:16:26   Similar to the Apple extended keyboard - I was always very disappointed in any other keyboards at least in terms of their

00:16:32   Apple extended to likeness

00:16:34   If that makes sense this see that keyboard that you're talking about is

00:16:40   170 bucks

00:16:44   As soon as I saw that I'd said to myself

00:16:46   Don't buy that keyboard and then I spent like the next hour thinking I should buy that keyboard. I should buy that keyboard

00:16:52   I should buy a keyboard.

00:16:58   You know, you should have done something to build adjacent.

00:17:01   And then I got worried.

00:17:02   I got worried because we were tweeting about it and I got worried that other people would

00:17:06   see the tweets about it and think the same thing and then the place would be sold out

00:17:11   of them.

00:17:12   So I hurried up and bought one and I said that and then I don't know if he was joking

00:17:16   or not but I said that I got spooked that they were going to sell out now that we linked

00:17:20   to it.

00:17:22   So I quick bought one and then Merlin Mann said he did the same thing.

00:17:26   He bought one in a pair now.

00:17:28   And then I think that they actually did sell out.

00:17:30   I think that they did sell out of them.

00:17:32   So I actually wasn't wrong.

00:17:34   Or at least they're backward.

00:17:35   I don't know if that's the right term.

00:17:37   Well, Merlin probably bought all of them, the rest of the stock.

00:17:43   It was that company, Matthias, that didn't they have the first QUIKI keyboard?

00:17:47   When you're way back?

00:17:48   No, not the first one, but they were the first one.

00:17:51   They were one of the first ones that I can remember.

00:17:54   They've been making clicky mechanical keyboards for as long as I—at least since the '90s.

00:18:05   I think I first heard of them back in the '90s on tidbits.

00:18:09   I don't know if it was Adam Angst himself or somebody else who wrote for tidbits at

00:18:14   the time, but somebody who, like me, was a fan of the Apple Extended Keyboard too, first

00:18:20   brought my attention to their clicky keyboards. But the problem is, there's so many—and

00:18:26   Jason's got more keyboards than I do—and it's kind of a cool thing because it's

00:18:32   like in the 80s, all the keyboards were clicky, and then they stopped making clicky keyboards

00:18:39   and people who like them would go to great lengths. The PC people would… their version

00:18:48   of the Apple Extended Keyboard 2 is the IBM Model M, I think it's called, I forget.

00:18:53   I've never been a fan of it, but it's really clicky. It's the one with the buckling

00:18:57   spring and it's like if you've ever used a PC in the 80s, you know exactly what this

00:19:02   key… it is loud. It sounds like a gun going off or something.

00:19:07   Can you imagine a whole room of those I know it's a kind of hard to imagine like my the keyboard

00:19:12   I like the Apple extended keyboard to certainly is louder than like a

00:19:16   Current, you know Apple professional keyboard, whatever they call it

00:19:21   But it's not loud. Whereas the the IBM one was loud

00:19:25   but it's kind of cool like the the there's there's so many companies now making

00:19:31   mechanical keyboards and you have so much choice in terms of the switches that you can get it's

00:19:37   It's crazy.

00:19:40   Every once in a while I get off on keyboards here.

00:19:42   I should wait for Jason's on the show.

00:19:44   'Cause you don't care.

00:19:45   (laughs)

00:19:47   - Well, I'm a fan of the latest keyboards.

00:19:52   I really am.

00:19:53   I used to have a quickie keyboard.

00:19:56   - Did you buy one of the space black ones

00:19:58   now that they sell them separately?

00:19:59   - No.

00:20:00   - Did you see that?

00:20:01   That Apple is now selling those separately,

00:20:03   the space black, the things that come with the iMac Pro,

00:20:06   the keyboard, the mouse, and the trackpad in space black.

00:20:10   And they cost 20 bucks more than the regular silver versions

00:20:15   which I love.

00:20:16   (laughing)

00:20:18   I love it.

00:20:20   I love it when Apple charges more for the same thing

00:20:23   in a different color and it's always for the black.

00:20:25   Remember the one they had the black MacBooks

00:20:28   and they cost like $200 more than the white ones.

00:20:33   - Well, they were black.

00:20:34   - Right.

00:20:35   makes perfect sense. Of course they're of course they are. I do you I have a

00:20:44   question for you. Yes. Do you listen to any of the shows on Beats 1? No not

00:20:52   really. All right so I'm a I've always been a big fan of talk radio mm-hmm I

00:21:01   don't know if you listen to talk radio or not. I used to when I used to have a

00:21:04   commute. I mean, it's, you know, that's been a long time, though.

00:21:08   In Canada, I would listen to CBC, which I guess is like NPR down here. But I'd never really gotten

00:21:16   into Beats 1. And I just started listening today to Lars Jorck's Beats 1 show. And it's, it kind

00:21:30   of mixes talk radio with he was interviewing Jack White about his new album which is weird as hell

00:21:36   so I was listening to that and it made me think of talk radio and you know that that's the kind

00:21:49   of show that I think I might enjoy on on beats one so I just kind of headed on in the background when

00:21:54   I was when I was sitting there working. When it when the jackhammer stopped. No, construction

00:22:02   outside my house. The jackhammer start like seven o'clock in the morning and jolt your

00:22:08   right out of bed. Anyway, I just thought that was I haven't I haven't gotten into any show

00:22:16   on beats one. But I listened to that one today and thought it was really good. How does that

00:22:21   Is that live? This is how little I know about it. When you tune into it, do you get to decide

00:22:30   when to start it or is it like whatever they're talking about right now is what you listen to?

00:22:34   JL Collins So there's all kinds of different shows on Beats 1.

00:22:37   They're about an hour long each. So if you go in and just press the Beats 1 button, it'll play

00:22:46   whatever's live right now. But you can go back and listen to shows on demand. So that's what I

00:22:53   did. I went to Lars' show and listened to the Jack White interview that was done, I don't know,

00:22:58   a few weeks ago. So yeah, you can listen to them on demand. Yeah. So you can go back and listen to

00:23:04   all of them. Well, while we're talking about this, let me take a break here. And it's a perfect

00:23:09   segue and thank our first sponsor. And it is Vox's new podcast. It's a daily podcast from Vox, V-O-X,

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00:24:00   these teacher strikes that are really picking up the war in Syria. Here's one, this might

00:24:08   perk your ears, Jim. Here's they have an episode where they

00:24:11   used AC DC to explain gerrymandering. I got it. That's

00:24:17   got me I have to look that episode up. I gotta find that

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00:24:53   and I recommend you do.

00:24:54   So anyway, before we wrap, I don't know that we tied a bow

00:24:59   on this MacBook keyboard issue.

00:25:01   - Sorry, I interrupted.

00:25:03   That's all right.

00:25:04   Talk radio. - I'm always interrupting.

00:25:05   I don't know. I really—and I don't think it's the sort of thing that Apple is going

00:25:10   to talk about. It's not like Phil Schiller is going to get up there on stage at WWDC

00:25:15   and say, "Pieces of dust. We're getting stuck in a keyboard and we fixed it." They

00:25:20   might talk—

00:25:21   No.

00:25:22   If they do make improvements to the keyboard, they can say—they'll say it's better

00:25:25   and more reliable than ever or something like that. But somebody on Twitter asked me today,

00:25:32   Let's say Apple does fix this. Let's say they come out with a new MacBooks and MacBook

00:25:38   Pros at WWDC. And however they fix it, they've got keyboards now that don't get stuck.

00:25:48   How do they get word out about that if they're not going to—because if they don't talk

00:25:51   about it, how does word get out about it?

00:25:53   Well, I think that if they did do that, they would not mention it in the keynote, but maybe

00:26:02   in the briefings that we have afterwards, they might say, hey, John, just so you know,

00:26:12   we put rubber barrier around there, so now the keyboards won't get stuck, but they still

00:26:20   work the same.

00:26:22   And then you can put that in your notes and that's how they'll get the word out.

00:26:28   But otherwise, I mean, if you think between the keyboard for the MacBook and the keyboard

00:26:35   for the MacBook Pro, they never said anything.

00:26:39   But we noticed that the travel distance was a lot longer.

00:26:45   So we knew that they made some adjustments.

00:26:48   And when I questioned them on it, they did tell me and gave me some specs on that that

00:26:53   I wrote about, about how much they increase the travel distance and all that kind of stuff.

00:26:59   So that's how they got the word out about that.

00:27:03   But I don't think that they'll mention it.

00:27:05   Yeah, I don't think so either.

00:27:08   But I really feel like they've got it.

00:27:11   I don't know, I feel lucky that I've got this, I got my MacBook Pro that I'm still

00:27:16   very happy with right before this changeover because that would drive me nuts if I had

00:27:21   that problem. And I said before a couple episodes ago, I was talking about this with somebody

00:27:25   else. To my memory, on every MacBook, going back to PowerBooks, whatever iBook I had for

00:27:34   a couple of years, every Apple laptop I've ever had, I don't think I've ever once had

00:27:41   a problem with keys getting stuck. And I guess it's not fair to look at it historically

00:27:46   because the older ones from 10, 15 years ago were so much thicker and had so much more

00:27:52   travel that it's really like comparing apples and oranges. But even on the recent—

00:27:57   But wouldn't you think those ones would get more things stuck in them?

00:28:00   I guess, but somehow it never was a problem for me. I've never had—it would drive

00:28:04   me crazy if I did felt like, you know, every couple days, my end key gets stuck. And I

00:28:12   don't know if it has if I don't know if there's any correlation, like are certain keys more

00:28:17   likely to be stuck than others because of the location on the keyboard or how often

00:28:22   you type them? I don't know. But I saw some and somebody else had the problem. And it

00:28:27   seems fairly common to with the these Mac books where they type, let's just say the

00:28:32   letter B and like one out of 10 times when they try to type one letter B they get two B's

00:28:37   in their text. That would drive me crazy. That would just see that doesn't happen to me. I mean,

00:28:44   I'm on the thing all day long. I'm outside with it. I'm inside. You know,

00:28:51   things fall out of my beard on it. None of this stuff happens. I tried a different keyboard

00:28:59   Recently I have a real problem here Jim. I bought this

00:29:02   Microsoft folding keyboard. It's a portable keyboard Bluetooth and it folds up into it's the tiniest little package

00:29:11   and

00:29:13   It folds in half like in between like the T and Y and the G and H and the B and N keys

00:29:20   And so there's a little gap between the two sides

00:29:24   and

00:29:27   I

00:29:28   It's really nice and Microsoft makes good keyboard. They've always made good keyboards and mice, right?

00:29:33   They've bizarrely, you know for as much as I gripe about their software design

00:29:38   Their peripherals have always been very good and as good key travels feels, you know, like a laptop keyboard

00:29:44   But I can't use it because the way that it's split on the two sides here I'll send you a

00:29:52   Send you a picture here. You can take a look

00:29:58   The way it's split the Y is on the right side and I didn't even realize this

00:30:04   I've never been a fan of split keyboards, but I've never really tried using one

00:30:07   But it turns out that I've got 30 years of habit using my left index finger to type the letter Y

00:30:13   Which I guess is it and now that I look at the keyboard

00:30:17   I have no idea how I developed this habit because Y is clearly closer to my right index finger than to my left

00:30:24   but I type with my left and

00:30:27   And there is 0% chance,

00:30:30   like I tried using this keyboard to do like email

00:30:33   for like an hour.

00:30:34   And every single time that I tried to type a Y

00:30:37   and I wasn't actively thinking about this keyboard,

00:30:41   I'd use my left finger, it would go up next to the T

00:30:44   and there's no Y there.

00:30:46   And every single time it drove me nuts.

00:30:49   And it just made me think that it's sort of like,

00:30:52   this must be what it's like for these people

00:30:53   with the MacBook keyboard,

00:30:55   where some of their keys are unreliable.

00:30:58   It's incredibly distracting.

00:31:00   Like if you're used to being able to just not give

00:31:03   any thought at all to your keyboard

00:31:05   and just concentrate on what you're writing,

00:31:08   it is incredibly distracting.

00:31:11   - That's a pretty big gap.

00:31:15   - It is a pretty big gap.

00:31:17   And the other thing too, see, and if you look at that,

00:31:19   I'll put this link,

00:31:20   I promise to put it in the show notes, folks,

00:31:22   But if you look, what they did to not have jagged sides between them is they made like

00:31:27   the T key double width and the N key is double width just so that it makes a nice border.

00:31:35   What I wish that they would do if I were designing a split keyboard is I would put two Y's on

00:31:41   the keyboard, one on each side and I would do the same thing with the B.

00:31:44   Jay Famiglietti But only you would need that.

00:31:47   Well, I think there's probably other I'll bet there's a lot of people out there who have weird typing habits of that

00:31:53   Well, I'm sure but in order to incorporate all those weird typing habits the keyboard would would look

00:32:00   Like Homer Simpson's car or something. No, I'm just want to why keys and to be keys and I think that these double width

00:32:07   T and N and keys look goofy anyway

00:32:11   They do look goofy, but I why is the space so big do they need that to really fold it?

00:32:17   Yeah, I don't see how you could and it does it folds up really nicely

00:32:21   I mean it's it this if I could use it

00:32:24   it was a long time reader of the site recommended it to me and what he does a lot of the time is

00:32:29   He'll just take like his his

00:32:33   iPhone and a little stand little portable stand that that folds up and this keyboard and go to a coffee shop and just sort of

00:32:40   of go through email with just using his iPhone

00:32:43   and his keyboard.

00:32:44   And it really folds up into just a tiniest little package

00:32:49   with a phone.

00:32:51   It's really small.

00:32:53   - Well, this one's only $100, so you're getting cheaper.

00:32:55   (both laughing)

00:32:58   Do they have pictures of it folded?

00:33:02   - I saw them somewhere.

00:33:04   Oh yeah, scroll down, scroll down a little bit.

00:33:07   - Oh yeah, there it is, okay.

00:33:09   it folds up really, really small. I have a problem, Jim.

00:33:14   You know, I'm going to do an intervention for you.

00:33:18   I don't know why it reminded me of this, but thinking about how I developed my

00:33:25   bad, mostly bad touch typing abilities. I can't believe that I've touched type Y with the wrong

00:33:33   finger and it's really driving me crazy I learned to type all seventh grade we

00:33:38   had to take a typing course in seventh grade and it was using manual typewriters

00:33:45   like not a you know no electronics at all just like the old click clack manual

00:33:51   typewriters which in hindsight is crazy and they were special it's typed

00:33:58   instructional typewriters that didn't have printed keycaps so all those keys

00:34:04   were blank because that you know it was that way you couldn't cheat by like

00:34:08   looking down you were supposed to learn to memorize it and I did terribly in

00:34:14   this course I mean like and most of my friends did too and I was really in

00:34:17   seventh when I was in seventh grade I was still rather scrawny I was real

00:34:23   short and always in very skinny I didn't have the strength in my pinky

00:34:28   fingers to type to get the keys to go down far enough to actually print a letter. So

00:34:34   like every time I tried to type like an A or a Q or a Z, it would just look like a space,

00:34:40   you know, because it would like go down far enough that the typewriter would move one

00:34:44   character ahead, but I couldn't, I couldn't strike the key hard enough to actually make

00:34:48   the A appear. Yeah. I can't help but feel that that was actually that, that having,

00:34:54   know, learn to type like that, like was worse for my typing habits, because typing on a

00:34:59   modern keyboard is nothing at all like typing on a manual keyboard.

00:35:04   You know what, I'm sitting here, I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm sitting here typing different

00:35:10   words on my keyboard. And half the time, I'm using my left hand to type the why. Yeah.

00:35:17   And half the time I'm using. So if I type the word many, I'm just sitting there trying

00:35:21   to think of words with a Y. If I type many, I use my left hand to hit the Y key.

00:35:27   I think I do that too.

00:35:29   But if I type timely, I use the weary. Now weary, I'm just, I'm weary I use my right

00:35:38   hand.

00:35:39   Jim, this is how I spent my weekend.

00:35:41   Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Jon. So this is why you wanted me on the show. So now I'm

00:35:45   going to be tortured for the rest of the week.

00:35:47   And once you start

00:35:48   Figuring out words with Y.

00:35:49   - Once you start thinking about your typing,

00:35:51   it'll drive you nuts.

00:35:53   Here's the word that I type.

00:35:55   I know for a fact I type it with my left finger

00:35:58   to type the Y, like the word you, Y-O-U.

00:36:01   Because otherwise you have to type the whole thing

00:36:04   with your right hand and it feels very inefficient.

00:36:07   It feels--

00:36:08   - So try and type many, the word many.

00:36:10   - Yeah, no, I use my right hand for that one, yeah.

00:36:14   - Oh, I use my left hand, see?

00:36:16   So you can't have this keyboard the way that you want it,

00:36:20   because then I'd be typing like three Y's in one word.

00:36:25   - Oh, that's crazy.

00:36:27   - Oh, great, now this is gonna drive me nuts.

00:36:28   I'm gonna be thinking every word with a Y

00:36:30   so that I can see if I type with my left or my right.

00:36:34   I didn't know that I did that.

00:36:36   - Yeah, clearly what you need to do,

00:36:38   the only way that this could possibly be done properly

00:36:40   would be to set up a camera to videotape you

00:36:43   and wait until you haven't, you know, do some, you know, write some posts or to go through some

00:36:48   email and wait until you realize, hey, I haven't thought about my typing for the last 10 minutes

00:36:53   and then go back and watch the videotape and see, see what you actually do. Because when you're

00:36:57   thinking about it, you're never going to do it the way you would when you're not thinking about it.

00:37:01   Right. No, you're right. I'm going to keep thinking of words.

00:37:08   is. Now I'm going to have a problem too.

00:37:15   We've got to move on. Next thing you know we'll be talking baseball. Here's one that

00:37:23   also came up on Twitter today, but I've been thinking about it on and off for weeks now.

00:37:29   Where the hell is AirPower? Apple announced it at the iPhone event in early September

00:37:36   last year. And they said it wouldn't—I believe they said it won't be till next year. Not

00:37:43   like later, but specifically even in September, they said next year. And now on Twitter, some

00:37:49   people have found some small print in their ads, like the little tiny small print at the

00:37:54   bottom where they even use the phrase "early 2018." But everybody knows in marketing

00:38:02   terms that means until June 30th exactly and you could still say well it was the first half of the

00:38:07   year um but it this and it's this you know like uh they've had late products before right like

00:38:16   the air pods didn't really ship in volume until very close to christmas last year yeah right

00:38:22   Those are very late. Yeah.

00:38:23   And, you know, I obviously, you know, in the same way that in 2016,

00:38:30   when they first shipped iPhones that no longer had the analog headphone jack,

00:38:36   you know, they they do ship lightning headphones with them. But clearly the message was we think

00:38:44   AirPods and you know, the W1 chip and wireless is the future of headphones, and they were meant

00:38:51   to ship together and they didn't. But it wasn't that late, right? I mean, it was, you know,

00:38:56   in a perfect world, I'm sure they would have been shipping in volume when the iPhone 7 came out.

00:39:02   Two months late, though, understandable. And, you know, two or three months late for a product

00:39:08   that's as well received as AirPods are, in hindsight, doesn't really seem like that big

00:39:13   of a deal. Whereas AirPower is now like something like two, it's like 220 days ago, like it's

00:39:19   already more than half a year since it was announced. And the same way that the AirPods

00:39:26   went hand-in-hand marketing-wise with dropping the headphone jack, I think that AirPower

00:39:31   goes hand-in-hand with this year's iPhones being the first ones that charge wirelessly.

00:39:38   And you can do it. I have a couple of them. I really enjoy it with these Qi chargers from

00:39:43   Mophie and hundreds of companies. You can't shake a stick in a cell phone store and not hit

00:39:51   some of these wireless chargers. But clearly Apple has something better in mind so that people who

00:40:01   are all in on the Apple lifestyle can have this one pad that charges both their phone and their

00:40:07   watch. And the AirPods. Yeah, and the AirPods, right, with the case that still isn't out

00:40:15   yet either. And that's the other—that is a curious thing too because the AirPods

00:40:20   charging with this was going to require a new case. It looks pretty much the same, but

00:40:27   there's—it's like the charging indicators on the outside, I think, right? Instead of

00:40:34   having to open the lid to see the charging indicator. And when they announced that, I

00:40:38   asked if they would be selling that case separately so that people who already own AirPods with

00:40:46   the old case, can you get the new case for obviously less than the price of an entire

00:40:52   $159 pair of AirPods that you don't need because your two AirPods still work perfectly?

00:40:58   And the answer was, alas, that they didn't know yet. They're aware of it. They're

00:41:04   thinking about it, but they had nothing to say at the time. But I suspect the answer

00:41:09   would be yes.

00:41:10   Dave: I would hope.

00:41:12   Tom Bilyeu: But they're still not selling. If you go into the Apple store today and buy

00:41:16   AirPods, you still get the old case. It seems a little weird to me. Even if AirPower isn't

00:41:24   yet, they would have switched over to the new case that was AirPower ready beforehand.

00:41:29   Tom Bilyeu (01h00m 10s): Yeah, but then you'd be able to use them with

00:41:32   the other Qi chargers, and they probably don't want that right now.

00:41:35   Jay Haynes (01h00m 16s): Yeah, I don't know if you will, though. I don't think you will. Apple

00:41:39   Watch doesn't charge with the Qi charger. AirPower is Qi plus Apple secret sauce.

00:41:46   Tom Bilyeu (01h00m 28s): As is everything.

00:41:49   - Right, it's T plus.

00:41:52   - I think that they'll wanna release

00:41:55   all of this stuff at once.

00:41:58   I mean, it's different that they had

00:42:05   the wireless charging for the phones.

00:42:10   But I think that they kinda needed that.

00:42:13   - I heard last year from somebody,

00:42:14   like a little birdie at Apple who knew about it,

00:42:16   that it was known to be a troubled project even,

00:42:21   I guess that what I heard wasn't before the event,

00:42:27   it was after, but with the delay,

00:42:30   somebody said, yeah, that's been a real problem.

00:42:34   Like it was obviously meant to ship in September

00:42:37   and it's not even close.

00:42:39   Like it's not only did they fail to ship

00:42:41   alongside the iPhones, they're 200 and some days later.

00:42:45   - Will you get an AirPower?

00:42:46   - I don't know, I guess.

00:42:51   'Cause I have an Apple Watch and I wear it.

00:42:55   I don't wear it every day, but I wear it enough.

00:42:57   And it certainly seems like it would be great

00:43:03   for just keeping in my backpack as my travel charger.

00:43:08   And then it's just one thing to plug in

00:43:12   and I could charge both my Apple Watch and iPhone

00:43:16   while traveling and AirPods.

00:43:18   Being able to charge all three

00:43:21   while traveling would be great.

00:43:23   I don't really have a huge need for the all-in-one now.

00:43:27   - Well, don't forget that AirPower is gonna be

00:43:33   a quicker charge than the ones

00:43:35   that are on the market right now, too.

00:43:37   - Yeah, I don't know about that, though.

00:43:39   I thought it was like the 7.5-watt ones,

00:43:42   and that it was quicker than, I could be wrong.

00:43:45   I thought that the story was that in September,

00:43:49   when the iPhones first shipped,

00:43:51   iOS was limiting them to like drawing five watts of power.

00:43:55   - Five, yeah.

00:43:56   - But that a software update, it was like 11.1 or something

00:43:59   enabled the 7.5 watt charging.

00:44:02   - Oh, okay, maybe you're right.

00:44:04   - And I don't think AirPower will do much more than that,

00:44:06   if anything.

00:44:07   I don't have a problem with the speed of the ones now though.

00:44:10   I mean, it's--

00:44:11   I do. Well, I mean, I guess I wish it was as fast as lightning. But I, you know, for

00:44:16   me, it's an overnight thing. So I never really noticed.

00:44:18   Well, I suppose but a lot of times I use my, I have one of the big chargers. So you know,

00:44:25   I plug it in, and it's just zooming right up there with with the charge. But a lot of

00:44:30   that is, you know, using your phone all day, and you know, for some reason, you're using

00:44:37   more than normal and it goes down, you have to run to a meeting and you hit 30%. I want

00:44:44   to be able to plug it in like 30 minutes before I have to go and be done with it. Have it

00:44:50   charged up. So I use one of those big chargers and that's what it does.

00:44:56   So.

00:44:57   It's just very curious to me that this thing hasn't shipped yet. I really, you know, just

00:45:02   seems very unusual.

00:45:03   And it just doesn't seem, and again, I hate,

00:45:06   I know the engineers, every engineer I've ever worked with

00:45:10   hates when somebody says, you know,

00:45:12   like any programmer or engineer,

00:45:14   and you give them a feature request and say,

00:45:16   this should be easy, right?

00:45:19   Nobody wants to be told what's easy and what's difficult.

00:45:23   And I'm sure, and with anything charging related,

00:45:26   there's so many safety things, right?

00:45:28   Like, you know, all of these things, you know,

00:45:31   you don't, you know, they've gotta be 100% reliable.

00:45:33   They cannot catch fire or get too hot.

00:45:36   And there's all sorts, you know, I'm sure it's not easy.

00:45:40   But in the grand scheme of Apple products,

00:45:42   it seems like it's not the most difficult product to make.

00:45:47   - Well, and they give those engineers at Apple

00:45:52   these types of problems all the time.

00:45:54   Now, with the current chargers that are the Qi chargers,

00:45:58   you basically have to put your phone right in the middle

00:46:03   order to make it work properly. I mean, we've all been through that that thing where, you

00:46:08   know, where if it's not placed properly, then, you know, you have a problem. What do

00:46:13   you think they're doing with airpower? Because it's, you know, more oval shaped. Yeah. And

00:46:18   they have this bigger, bigger, but, but they show three products on airpower at once. It's

00:46:26   seemingly as you know, and I did get to look at it in the hands on area. Back in September,

00:46:32   just clearly has a bigger sweet spot. You know, there's a

00:46:35   bigger surface area. And I don't know why the third party chi

00:46:39   ones tend to have such a small surface area.

00:46:42   I don't know.

00:46:43   Is air power giving 7.5 to each device? Or is it 7.5 split?

00:46:50   I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know. Right?

00:46:54   Does the charging speed get affected if you have multiple

00:46:57   devices on at once? I would guess no. I would think no, but I don't know.

00:47:04   I mean, what's the max charge power?

00:47:08   I did terribly in my electrical engineering course in freshman year. Really, really bad.

00:47:14   I had to switch majors through.

00:47:16   Jeez.

00:47:17   So I don't know. You might be asking the wrong person. I don't know. I just find

00:47:22   it very, very curious.

00:47:23   Yeah, I don't—

00:47:24   I think part of it too is that Apple has started shipping more products late and/or pre-announced

00:47:35   than they used to traditionally. And I feel like we've sort of gotten a little numb to it.

00:47:43   It's no longer as surprising as when they first started doing that. And so like, you know,

00:47:52   of course AirPods are a couple months late, right? That wasn't shocking, right? And they,

00:47:56   you know, they kind of set the stage for that at the time. Because if you recall, they did give us

00:48:02   review units of AirPods in September, but they were very, very adamant that they were prototypes.

00:48:11   And when the production one started shipping, they wanted those prototypes back that day,

00:48:17   like three months later, they were like, "Here's a FedEx thing. We expect this tomorrow."

00:48:24   And I do remember, too, I remember, I think it was even overnight. And they never take, you know,

00:48:30   they, you know, the, the, it was demanding. When you, when you send back review products from

00:48:38   Apple, they are very chill. They're very laid back about them. And they do supply you with,

00:48:44   like FedEx labels so that you know it's all postage paid but it's not typically next day

00:48:50   because they don't care they don't care if it takes a week right they you know just send back

00:48:54   this you know ipad eventually and you send it back and you know takes a week to get there whatever

00:48:59   but they they wanted those airpods prototypes and even though I couldn't see one damn thing that was

00:49:06   different between them me neither and you know those prototypes uh worked so well for me yeah

00:49:13   I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know what and

00:49:16   But so do the new ones. Yeah, or you know the shipping version the shipping versions works

00:49:22   well, too. That's one of my favorite apple products. I have them in my pocket all the time. Yeah

00:49:28   Oh same here without question. I'm always shocked when they're not in my pocket

00:49:32   I'm like, oh my god. Yeah, well

00:49:35   Where are they?

00:49:36   um

00:49:38   Right, I used to put a little sticker on mine to tell them apart from amy

00:49:42   so we'd never get them confused. And then the sticker would sometimes fall off over time,

00:49:46   because I didn't want to put a super sticky, sticky sticker there. And then I realized there's

00:49:53   no need for it. 99% of the time, there's no confusion over whose AirPods or whose because

00:49:59   they're always in my pocket. Yeah. And that's where they're going to stay. I use them pretty

00:50:08   much every day. I do. And I love them. Yeah, it's a great product. I guess it would be better to have

00:50:17   it on a charging mat. I guess if air power works, we don't even know what it's going to cost,

00:50:23   and it's probably going to be surprisingly expensive compared to these Qi chargers.

00:50:28   Oh, yeah. I guess I would like to put one on my desk, though, now that I think about it. I do have

00:50:35   I have a little Qi charger on my desk, an Anker one, but it's nice. It's like a

00:50:41   stand. It almost props the iPhone up and I can use it to see alerts and stuff like that.

00:50:46   It's nice to just have these things laying about in a way that lightning cables always

00:50:51   felt like—let's say your phone is at 85%, mostly full. I'm not going to plug it into

00:50:58   a lightning cable if I'm going to be at my desk for half an hour. I'll just keep

00:51:01   right pocket but I will use a Qi charger that way. I'll just take it out and just why not just

00:51:06   let the phone sit on it while I'm working. You know the interesting thing about that

00:51:12   is and I talked to them about this because before you were supposed to let your battery run all the

00:51:19   way down. You know weren't supposed to plug plugging it in because that would ruin the battery

00:51:28   And I asked them if that wasn't a problem anymore. And they just reiterated that you could use the

00:51:37   charger whenever you wanted.

00:51:39   Pete: Yeah, I asked about that too. And they were adamant about it. I guess that's a pretty good

00:51:45   question. I get asked that on Twitter a lot too. Is it a bad idea to, you know, to keep your phone,

00:51:51   you know, if you have like a key charger at your desk at work and stuff like that, and you have one

00:51:55   in your car. You get in your car in the morning and drive to work and your phone goes from—it's

00:51:59   already at 98, now it's back up to 100. You get to work, you put it on your desk at work,

00:52:04   and it never drops below the 90s or something like that. Is that bad for the phone? And I was

00:52:09   told definitely no. You just use it whenever you want. If you want to run it down until it's in

00:52:15   the red and then charge it back up, and if you keep it above 80% all day, the phone manages

00:52:22   all of that. Like the phone won't let itself, the iPhone is programmed, I guess it's a mix of

00:52:28   hardware and software, but it's by design, will never do anything that would harm the battery life

00:52:34   adverse, you know, more than the way that it can't help but degrade over time.

00:52:39   Well, and you remember those days, though, when they said, Oh, don't don't keep plugging it in,

00:52:46   and it's at, you know, 90%, let it go down to almost empty and then plug it in.

00:52:52   That's how we we lived with this stuff for four years. I had a power book and it's not even that long ago

00:52:58   It was it was probably around

00:53:00   2006 or so and

00:53:04   It's funny because I say I would never do it now but

00:53:09   At the time I was using it as a desktop only device

00:53:13   And

00:53:21   It was literally I never unplugged it like I had external hard drives and stuff like that and I

00:53:25   Had a like an old iBook that I used when I actually wanted to travel with a laptop

00:53:31   And what wound up happening to that power book is the battery because it never used the battery

00:53:37   It was at 100% for months at a time and then the battery I got like a warning one day like hey your batteries

00:53:42   You know the battery's dead and it was like what and it was like the battery wouldn't hold a charge at all

00:53:47   And you know lo and behold there was like a tech note that hey

00:53:50   You know, you're supposed to let the battery run down every couple of weeks just just to keep it healthy

00:53:54   And I I hadn't and then the battery was like wrecked

00:53:58   Yeah, and it appears that doesn't happen anymore

00:54:02   I wonder if it still does if you keep a plugged in

00:54:04   But that was it that was a machine where I could buy a new battery remember when they'd you know, yes

00:54:09   Boy that it feels it feels like we're we're far into the future

00:54:16   Now that it seems old-fashioned that you could pop the battery out of your laptop. I know

00:54:22   but to be honest and

00:54:25   the battery in today's

00:54:27   MacBook Pros

00:54:30   Or MacBooks would last longer than you know a couple of batteries from from back. Oh definitely

00:54:37   Yeah, that's there's no comparison

00:54:39   Yeah back in that era. It was tough to get it, you know, even four and a half hours on a flight

00:54:44   Yeah.

00:54:45   With reasonable, you know, a reasonable screen brightness.

00:54:49   Well, I remember packing, you know, a backpack to go on a trip or go to an Apple event or

00:54:57   fly out to Macworld or whatever.

00:54:59   And you know, have a couple of spare batteries, have, you know, and then the 15-pound computer

00:55:05   and he had an old backpack full of equipment just to go on a trip.

00:55:11   you can just go with, you know, a power cord and a MacBook or an iPad.

00:55:18   Hey, let me hear something while we're talking about batteries. And I wanted I didn't put it in

00:55:23   the notes, but I wanted to ask you, I've been wearing my Apple Watch more than I had been for

00:55:27   a while recently, you know, I switch around between different watches. And I just realized

00:55:32   with the series three Apple Watch, which has much better battery life than before, I run out of

00:55:40   battery on my, on or get the warning on my Apple watch more than I used to, because I

00:55:47   can I can go days without charging it. Like I'll go to sleep wearing instead of charging

00:55:52   it religiously as I go to bed. I'll just wear it in bed. It's a it's a because it's my favorite

00:55:57   watch to wear while I sleep because I can see it in the dark. It's you know, if I wake

00:56:03   up in the middle and I want to know what time it is. And but therefore I now that I've broken

00:56:10   Now that I've broken the habit of every night I have to charge the Apple watch or it won't

00:56:14   make it through the next day.

00:56:17   Now I actually end up running out of battery more often because I can go like three days.

00:56:23   Like I'm pretty sure I'm on my third day right now.

00:56:25   And I've still got 42% battery life.

00:56:29   That's pretty good.

00:56:30   Have you seen it?

00:56:32   I have one of these chargers.

00:56:36   You know, it sits down and the middle pops through, you know, the Apple Watch charger

00:56:41   and the middle pops up.

00:56:42   And I have that facing on my nightstand.

00:56:47   So every night the last thing I do is put my Apple Watch on that when I go to bed.

00:56:53   And when I wake up in the morning, I pull it off.

00:56:54   And so you still have the daily charging habit?

00:56:57   I still have that habit.

00:56:58   And that's all it is right now.

00:57:00   Now if there's a situation, you know, I have gone away for the weekend and forgotten

00:57:05   the charger and the Apple watches lasted the entire weekend.

00:57:09   That's not a big deal.

00:57:10   What's your battery life at right now on the watch?

00:57:13   Good question.

00:57:17   Just flick up.

00:57:18   I did flick up.

00:57:20   81%.

00:57:21   See that?

00:57:22   81%.

00:57:23   We're recording here at 2.30 Pacific time.

00:57:27   It's really kind of remarkable how quickly battery life has gotten better on Apple Watch

00:57:32   with the device only getting like, it's like one tenth of a millimeter thicker or

00:57:36   something like that since the original.

00:57:38   Um, yep.

00:57:39   Like, you know, we're sitting here talking about power books from 10 years ago having

00:57:43   dramatically different battery life, but the Apple Watch, it's just in the course of

00:57:47   like two and a half years, it was crazy how much better the battery got.

00:57:51   Well, and to be clear, I use my Apple Watch a lot throughout the day.

00:57:58   whenever I use navigation.

00:58:00   And I use navigation even when I don't need

00:58:03   to use navigation 'cause I test out different apps.

00:58:06   So I'll use Google and Waze and Apple,

00:58:09   mostly those three, just to see what they do.

00:58:12   So my watch, when I use Apple Watch,

00:58:14   it's doing the haptics to tell me the term

00:58:18   and stuff like that.

00:58:20   I talk to it, I ask it, hockey scores and things like that.

00:58:25   And I have news coming up on it all the time.

00:58:28   So my watch is being used.

00:58:32   And still I can go two or three days on a single charge.

00:58:37   - Do you have cellular?

00:58:38   - Yes.

00:58:41   - How often do you find yourself using that?

00:58:43   - Almost never.

00:58:45   - Yeah, same here.

00:58:46   I have it, I pay for it.

00:58:48   I think it's just 10 bucks a month, but who knows?

00:58:51   Verizon's probably screwing me somehow.

00:58:54   (laughing)

00:58:56   - Well, they give you like a courtesy charge.

00:58:58   You know what I mean?

00:58:59   And they always give it a name like that,

00:59:00   like a courtesy charge.

00:59:02   - Yeah.

00:59:04   Don't even know what that is.

00:59:06   - Well, it's just, you know,

00:59:08   they just have the courtesy to charge you

00:59:10   an extra dollar a month, just as a F-you.

00:59:14   - Yeah.

00:59:15   - Like I have to have so much more respect for them

00:59:18   if they would just charge it like a fuck you fee.

00:59:20   You know what I mean?

00:59:21   Like I was, I told this story a couple of weeks ago

00:59:23   about buying movie tickets with my son.

00:59:24   And I noticed that in the Fandango app,

00:59:27   like, I don't know, let's just say like $11 a seat.

00:59:31   And it came to, you know, $22 for two seats plus tax.

00:59:36   And I believe Fandango called it a courtesy fee.

00:59:39   (laughs)

00:59:41   I would have so much more respect for them

00:59:42   if they just said, "Screw you fee,

00:59:44   because we can fee."

00:59:47   - Yeah.

00:59:50   We know you're gonna pay it anyway, V.

00:59:52   (laughs)

00:59:55   - And there you go, John.

00:59:57   Pay it.

00:59:58   - I do wonder about that.

00:59:59   I have the, I also think about the,

01:00:02   with the Apple Watch charger, with the AirPower thing,

01:00:08   before we move on to another topic.

01:00:11   Sometimes I wear the link bracelet,

01:00:12   and with the link bracelet, you'd have to kind of like

01:00:15   take it apart to get it on that charger.

01:00:17   Like I need the pop-up charger that you're talking about,

01:00:20   where you can put the watch on its side

01:00:21   to charge it with the link bracelet.

01:00:26   - Yep, and it does act as, you know,

01:00:30   if you put it in, what's that mode called,

01:00:34   where at night, if you tap it--

01:00:36   - Alarm clock mode or something?

01:00:37   - Yeah, alarm clock mode or whatever, yeah.

01:00:40   And I've used that, especially when I've been on trips,

01:00:45   because I also wake up and wanna know what time it is,

01:00:48   So I'll just reach over and just tap the watch and it comes up and shows me the time and

01:00:54   you know that's it's all good.

01:00:56   But that that charger stand that Apple sells for the Apple watch best thing I've had for

01:01:01   the Apple watch.

01:01:02   Oh I love it too.

01:01:03   It's wonderful.

01:01:04   That's why I'm a little iffy on whether I really even need air power or if I do I

01:01:11   meant like I said maybe I'd only take it as a traveling thing because I like that I

01:01:15   that Apple charger and I like it and it doesn't really, it doesn't really bother me or inconvenience

01:01:22   me or clutter up my bedroom to have both that and a Qi charger. Right. And you know, I'll still get

01:01:29   an AirPower because if I can, maybe once a week I'll charge up my AirPods through, you know,

01:01:40   lightning. Yeah. But to have that and the phone just walk in

01:01:44   and put them down and they're charging. Yeah, I'll get that.

01:01:47   I guess I will to who are we kidding says me the guy who just

01:01:51   blew $270 on keyboards that he doesn't need

01:01:55   that he doesn't need. Yeah, I guess I'll buy an airpower. I

01:02:04   will say this while we're skipping around on all three of

01:02:06   these products. But I'll say this also with the AirPods. I am still on my original AirPods

01:02:12   from December of I guess that was 2016. I still I never ever run out of battery life

01:02:21   on these things. I have never won I only even heard the noise one time there's like a little

01:02:26   noise it plays when it's like a warning. And I didn't know what it was because I'd had

01:02:30   them for so long and and or maybe I heard it while I was testing them. You know, like

01:02:34   as they were new, I like purposefully didn't charge them. I never run out of battery. And

01:02:41   what happens is, I think, hey, I haven't charged these things. And I don't even remember when

01:02:46   I last charged it up at that they're like almost out of battery, and then I'll hold

01:02:50   it up to my phone. And it'll still be like, the cases at 40%. And the buds are fully charged.

01:02:55   And I think, well, quick plugging in, I guess, you know, every every once a week, maybe I

01:03:00   I plugged the thing in to a lightning cable for a couple of minutes, but it's it is the it

01:03:05   It is the best battery life for any product I've ever had in my life

01:03:09   so

01:03:11   here's a little story for you I went to

01:03:15   Was about a four four and a half hour flight

01:03:19   couple months ago and I got to the airport and I had my iPad and I downloaded a whole bunch of shows from

01:03:26   Netflix to watch and

01:03:29   I got there early and

01:03:31   started watching

01:03:33   Netflix I have my air pods and started watching Netflix at the gate and

01:03:38   Get on the plane and I heard that sound that they make when they're running out of battery, you know a few hours in and

01:03:45   Sure enough they were they were both dead I plugged them I dropped them in the case

01:03:52   15 minutes later they were fully charged

01:03:57   It's amazing back out and and kept watching the show. So I had a 15-minute break of watching shows and

01:04:04   That fully charged my air pods. Yeah, that is it's absolutely stunning

01:04:10   But they still lasted like four hours. Yeah for anything that I'm concerned about losing keys

01:04:18   sunglasses

01:04:19   You know obviously air pods add to the mix

01:04:21   I tend to I have terrible memory for stuff like that like so I

01:04:26   I can't just put my sunglasses anywhere

01:04:29   and then expect to remember where they are.

01:04:31   So I just, the way I've managed it my whole life

01:04:34   is I'll just have certain rules.

01:04:36   You only ever put your sunglasses X, Y, and Z.

01:04:39   There's a spot where they live.

01:04:41   They're either in that spot in my office, actually,

01:04:44   where they live, they're in a coat pocket,

01:04:49   or they are in the car, and that's it.

01:04:53   Or they're on my face, right?

01:04:54   And I do the same thing with my keys.

01:04:58   And if my keys aren't at the spot where I keep my keys,

01:05:02   I'm screwed, 'cause if they're not in my pocket

01:05:05   or on the spot where I keep my keys,

01:05:07   I might, you know, every time it happens,

01:05:10   I fear that I'm going to have to change the locks

01:05:12   in the house, you know, because--

01:05:14   (laughing)

01:05:16   - God, that was good.

01:05:21   But with AirPower, not AirPower, with the AirPods, my rule is on my desk, that's the place where

01:05:32   I typically charge them, on the kitchen counter, whether it's a lightning cable, or in my pocket,

01:05:39   and that's it.

01:05:40   And with the buds themselves, my rule is, other than when I go jogging, when I would

01:05:46   just take the buds. If I'm using my AirPods, I have the case in my pocket. And if I take

01:05:52   them out of my ear and I need to put them anywhere, if I'm not just going to hold them,

01:05:57   you know, like while I'm paying or talking to somebody or something, if I'm not my hand,

01:06:01   then I put them back in the case. Right? Like I'll never just throw the pods, the buds loose

01:06:06   in my pocket. But by having that habit, it's like they, they, they even like on an airplane

01:06:14   flight or something like that they they take, you know, they get enough of a charge that

01:06:20   they never drop.

01:06:22   If my my air pods are always in my case, and they're always in my pocket, the only other

01:06:32   place they are is charging. So there is no other place that there'll be pocket or charging.

01:06:40   when they're charging, I notice that they're not in my pocket. Because I guess I just got

01:06:46   used to feeling them there. So then I take it back.

01:06:51   Trenton Larkin I don't like flying with them because they're

01:06:54   not noise canceling. So I have like a pair of Bose noise canceling wireless headphones that I bought

01:06:59   like six months ago, which I really like. But I have flown with them because I've either

01:07:07   forgotten my other headphones or I flew with them before I bought these Bose QuietComfort,

01:07:13   whatever the hell they're called. But when I get up to pee on an airplane if I'm wearing

01:07:19   my AirPods, I take them out because the idea of dropping one in that filthy airplane bathroom,

01:07:30   let alone if it actually went into the toilet. But if my AirPod fell out of my ear—and

01:07:36   And they never fall out of my ear.

01:07:37   They don't fall out of my ear.

01:07:39   It's not a problem.

01:07:40   But the idea that the one time they might fall out

01:07:44   and they would touch any surface in the airplane bathroom,

01:07:48   I would have to throw them out.

01:07:50   But just the nature of just putting them in the case

01:07:56   for the 90 seconds it takes to get up

01:07:59   and go to the restroom in the airline

01:08:02   means that you'd land on a cross-country flight

01:08:04   and they're still charged, you know?

01:08:06   - Yeah, exactly.

01:08:08   - Yeah, it's a great product.

01:08:09   - And then you get off the plane, you know,

01:08:11   you still have them in and you're still listening to music

01:08:15   and you know, it's wonderful.

01:08:17   I just love them.

01:08:19   It's my favorite product right now.

01:08:21   - All right, let me take a break here

01:08:22   and thank our next sponsor.

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01:08:38   All right, let's talk music.

01:08:42   You spend countless days, maybe weeks,

01:08:45   for let's say you're working on a video project,

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01:08:49   or a service that you're working on,

01:08:50   and you spend weeks searching through stock music libraries

01:08:53   because you know that the right song

01:08:55   could make or break your video, right?

01:08:58   You have cool video, but you have cool music on it

01:09:01   with the right vibe, then it works,

01:09:02   and if you have terrible music on it,

01:09:04   it could wreck the whole thing.

01:09:06   Well, haven't you noticed that in most libraries

01:09:09   of stock music, they sound like stock music?

01:09:13   I think this is true.

01:09:14   I notice it every time I watch a YouTube video

01:09:16   and I can tell when they're using stock music.

01:09:19   It's exactly, bad stock music is like bad stock photography.

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01:09:24   You just know you're looking at a stock photo

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01:11:11   So the cool part, and this ties into the opening of the show, is Alex Weinstein happens to

01:11:15   be a long-time fan of the show. Hi, Alex. Thanks for sponsoring. And was the composer

01:11:24   along with Adam, Lisa Gore of the Pickin' Boogers with John theme song.

01:11:30   Very different style. That's a little bit over the top, obviously. But I really enjoy

01:11:35   that the callback to like what, like a five or six year old gag on the show. Now here

01:11:41   he is sponsoring the show. Can't recommend his music more. It's so great. I sent you

01:11:47   a pick. It was, you know, just sounds great. It doesn't, it, it very distinctive and just

01:11:52   doesn't have that awful stock, you know, I spent 15 seconds in GarageBand sound to it.

01:11:59   Right. And I'll agree and I listened to it with headphones on and it's got a great feel on the

01:12:08   headphones. Great sound. Yeah, it's like, you know, it's serious stuff. This is like, you know,

01:12:13   as high a production as high production can get. See, John, if you want, I'll write a song for you.

01:12:20   It'd be a bit more metal and I would like that I bet you could do a killer

01:12:24   You could probably do a killer version of picking boogers with John

01:12:27   I might have to give that if you do that. We'll stick it in it. We'll stick it on at the end of the show

01:12:37   Do you see this story last week about this guy with a damaged iMac Pro is a

01:12:48   youtuber named

01:12:50   I think it's Lucas Linus Sebastian, a very successful YouTuber, very popular YouTube channel.

01:12:56   Do you see this story?

01:12:58   I did.

01:12:59   So I think that this is a fair summary of it, that he and his colleagues at his YouTube channel

01:13:06   got an iMac Pro to do a review of, and they did a teardown of it. They took it apart

01:13:15   to show the internals, sort of, I guess, like iFixit style.

01:13:19   And except not as good. Well, and then in the course of putting it back together,

01:13:26   they damaged the screen. And oh, by the way, also the logic board and something else.

01:13:33   And when they took it to get repaired now, they, you know, and to be clear, they obviously,

01:13:40   you know, it's a new device, but they obviously realized that what they had done to it was

01:13:45   not going to be covered by warranty coverage. So what they wanted is they wanted to give it to

01:13:49   Apple, have it repaired and pay. Tell us what it'll cost and they will pay to have this fixed.

01:13:56   And ultimately, Apple turned them down and did not want said, because of the way that

01:14:05   you guys have opened this up, that we don't want this. You can't even pay us to repair this thing.

01:14:14   And, you know, so far, to me, that, you know, disappointing, I'd be, you know, it would be nice

01:14:20   if Apple would fix it, but I kind of think a reasonable person, given, you know, what's going

01:14:25   on here can see why maybe they wouldn't. But then they made this YouTube video that I think rather

01:14:31   disingenuously made it seem as though they didn't emphasize the we took this thing apart and wrecked

01:14:41   the internals aspect of it. And it was more, we had a whoopsie with our iMac Pro and guess what,

01:14:49   Apple doesn't have any certified technicians who can fix iMac Pros. And it's like, what? You're

01:14:55   spending $6,000 on a pro computer and Apple doesn't even know how to fix it? And that's the story that

01:15:02   spread like wildfire, that you could buy a $6,000 computer from Apple and they don't know how to fix

01:15:08   it if it goes bad. Well, it was interesting because the morning that this, before it all

01:15:16   blew up, Dave Mark sent me a link to the video and said, "What do you think about this? Should we

01:15:23   post it?" And I watched it and as soon as he started, I texted Dave back and said,

01:15:31   "Don't post it. There's something funky going on here. This is not what it seems."

01:15:37   - Yeah, Renee had a good video about it.

01:15:40   - Yeah, and we didn't post it,

01:15:42   but we did post, I think one of the followups

01:15:46   because as it turns out, there was something more.

01:15:48   But to be honest, if I was Apple, I wouldn't touch it.

01:15:54   I wouldn't have touched it at all

01:15:57   because as soon as you fix it and send it back to them,

01:16:00   if anything else goes wrong, then it's still under warranty.

01:16:03   No way am I touching that.

01:16:05   If you look, I think you had the best line.

01:16:09   In car terms, Apple is saying his iMac is totaled.

01:16:14   - Right.

01:16:15   - And that's exactly right.

01:16:17   The car is totaled, the insurance company

01:16:19   doesn't wanna have anything to do with it,

01:16:21   nobody's gonna fix it for you, it's done.

01:16:23   Because nobody wants to take that responsibility.

01:16:26   - Yeah, and somebody said--

01:16:28   - And I agree with them.

01:16:29   - With the electrical problems that it was having,

01:16:32   you could really understand, you know,

01:16:33   And Apple's certified techs are professional,

01:16:37   and I'm sure they know how to ground themselves

01:16:39   and do everything right when working with these things.

01:16:43   But if it's already damaged,

01:16:44   I could see why they don't wanna risk

01:16:46   having somebody go in there

01:16:48   and possibly get electrocuted or something.

01:16:51   I don't know.

01:16:52   And I also wonder if part of it,

01:16:54   I feel like the only thing Apple's done wrong here

01:16:56   is not communicate clearly to the guy,

01:16:58   like, hey, we're sorry, but it's totaled.

01:17:01   You know, like, 'cause if your car is totaled,

01:17:02   If you're in a car accident and you're like, you don't know if it's going to be repairable

01:17:07   or not, you know, and the mechanic will just tell you, you know, this is totaled, right?

01:17:12   I guess you have to work it out with your insurance company.

01:17:14   But they'll just say, you know, well, we're not going to, you know, we'll just give you

01:17:17   the money because this isn't worth it to fix it.

01:17:20   Yeah, but let's be honest.

01:17:22   We don't know what Apple communicated to him.

01:17:24   No, we, I don't, and I don't take, I don't believe, I don't believe his word on what

01:17:28   they said to him.

01:17:29   I know he quotes from some emails where people are, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the

01:17:32   people are confused, but it doesn't seem like they're informed about it.

01:17:36   Dr. Jon Olin Apple could have very easily

01:17:39   sent him a thing and he's just trying to put pressure on them. And you know, obviously people

01:17:44   picked it up. But Apple could have sent him a note and said, Look, there's no way that we're going to

01:17:52   touch this because you're a moron and you wreck the computer and we're not going to be responsible

01:17:57   for it. Right? Like, I'm sure they know how much a display costs. Like if you if they're

01:18:02   The only problem is that the display was cracked.

01:18:04   I'm sure Apple can just quote you the,

01:18:09   it'll cost, I don't know, probably eight, $900

01:18:13   to get a new display or whatever it costs.

01:18:16   But they also have to test everything else

01:18:20   to see if there are any other problems.

01:18:24   So they can't just, as you drop it off at the Genius Bar,

01:18:27   they can't guarantee, I don't think,

01:18:29   at least that's my experience.

01:18:31   like my son dropped his MacBook Pro around,

01:18:36   I think it was over the holidays, like back in Christmas.

01:18:39   And he's usually very careful with his devices

01:18:41   and he has a years-long track record

01:18:44   of keeping everything really, really,

01:18:47   really good with his devices.

01:18:48   Accidents happen, so he wasn't in any trouble.

01:18:53   But when we took it to get,

01:18:57   but it was cracked in a way that it was unusable.

01:18:59   So, we took it and I kind of suspected the whole top would have to be replaced because

01:19:08   he kind of like the aluminum around the display was dented too.

01:19:13   But we had to drop it off and let them have it for a couple of days before they would

01:19:16   tell us how much it costs because it's not just that part.

01:19:21   They had to test the logic board, et cetera.

01:19:23   It turned out all we needed was the new top piece, just the whole thing with the display

01:19:28   and the aluminum and the Apple logo in the back. But you don't know that in advance.

01:19:34   And if all this other stuff, if you've taken apart the whole thing, how much work would

01:19:39   they have to do before they could even tell this guy how much it would cost to fix his

01:19:42   iMac Pro?

01:19:43   Tom Bilyeu (01h00m 0s): Well, and he would bring it in in pieces. No,

01:19:48   I wouldn't do it. I'm sorry. I wouldn't do it.

01:19:52   This year, did you ever watch the jackass movies?

01:19:55   Yeah, I have a real

01:19:58   Shame to admit it about how much I how minute how much I love the jackass movies and how many times I've watched them all

01:20:05   but there's the gag I think it's in the first jackass movie where Johnny Knoxville goes into a

01:20:10   rental car place and rents a car and

01:20:14   Declines their insurance and then he literally drives it in a demolition derby

01:20:21   (laughing)

01:20:23   And then drives it back to the lot.

01:20:33   It's just absolutely hilarious.

01:20:38   That's, to me, what this iMac story,

01:20:42   it's like you said, it's almost like he brings the iMac

01:20:44   in like a sack full of pieces to eat.

01:20:47   - Yeah.

01:20:48   - And it's like, here, fix this.

01:20:51   No. Would you would you have fixed it? Do you think Apple should have fixed it?

01:20:55   I don't know. I guess I'd have to, you know, I don't know enough about about how to, you know,

01:21:02   what's going on inside and I'm at pro to know how much work it would be to evaluate, you know,

01:21:07   how much there is, I can, but I'd have to so I but I can imagine given that they took the whole

01:21:13   thing apart, and that they have so many problems that they already know about, I could imagine

01:21:18   that it's in a state where I would reasonably say, "No, I decline to fix this. I think you're going

01:21:23   to have to just buy a new machine." Think about what would happen if they did fix it

01:21:30   and there was something else that was wrong in there that they didn't pick up, and then you have

01:21:36   to go back and fix that. And how long do these repairs go on through no fault of Apple or the

01:21:46   Apple certified technicians or whoever fixes it.

01:21:50   You know, that could be going on for years.

01:21:53   Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Just a weird story.

01:21:57   Yeah, no, you're, you're done. Get out, get out, get out,

01:22:01   get the hell out of here.

01:22:03   I wouldn't even have to say a word to him. I just look at him. He didn't know to

01:22:10   get out. You should, you should take that bag of parts with you. Yeah. You should,

01:22:14   You should get a job doing part-time Genius Bar work. Your customer service would be outstanding.

01:22:20   It'd be outstanding. I'll tell you, I offered Daniel Jalka, if he wanted, I'd do support emails

01:22:28   for him. I said, "You'll have nobody emailing you within a month." Guaranteed.

01:22:32   Daniel Jalka, Red Sweater software fan.

01:22:35   Yes. Yes, I offered him that. He declined. But you wouldn't have to worry about it. I have a way

01:22:44   with people. Yes, you do. Hey, let me take the third and final break here and thank our

01:22:52   third sponsor. And it's after two first time sponsors, we have a sponsor who I seem to

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01:24:52   a nickel before you cough up the dough. My thanks to Squarespace. What else do we got?

01:24:59   I guess the only other thing I really wanted to talk about was this chat. Google announced

01:25:05   a new thing. I don't know how long this was in the works at first I heard of it. Yeah,

01:25:11   call it RC RCS, but they're just calling it chat. And they're proposing it as a successor

01:25:17   to SMS. I'm encrypted though. That's the to me, that's the deal breaker. I in today's

01:25:25   day and you know talk about the way that the world ways the world has changed in 10 years you know

01:25:30   it's often and I know it's I think bill gates said it that somebody else did but it's

01:25:34   you know it's repeated often enough that who even knows who came up with it first but that in

01:25:39   technology we constantly overestimate how much we can get done in a year and constantly underestimate

01:25:48   how much change will happen in 10 years right yeah and that is so it's always been true like

01:25:54   you know, it was any of our computing landscape all that different one year ago from today?

01:26:01   Not really, you know, but 10 years ago, man, and it's like, you know, 10 years ago, you know,

01:26:07   and longer, you know, everything just went out over the, you know, internet in plain text. I

01:26:13   mean, it's, you know, it just was what it was. We just, you know, as a whole, we were short sighted

01:26:21   And, you know, and I think it's natural. I think if there's alien civilizations out there,

01:26:25   it's probably true that when they get around to making their version of the internet,

01:26:29   that it starts out unencrypted at first and then gets encrypted because, you know,

01:26:34   doing encryption is harder than not doing encryption. And so you do the easy thing first,

01:26:39   but then you run into problems. You know, everything from crime to protecting yourself

01:26:48   from government snooping to just any privacy. Not just security, but privacy.

01:26:58   Tom Bilyeu (00;01;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00;00

01:26:58   Security. Yeah, everything. Right. I just can't. So like, I understand, I can imagine why SMS,

01:27:07   the original SMS is not encrypted. But in 2018, for the successor to it, to not be end to end

01:27:15   encrypted, to me, it's like a deal breaker. It's like, why would you support something new

01:27:19   and encourage people to you, hey, here's this great new thing with with a really serious

01:27:27   Problem insofar is that it's not encrypted at all. It's just as you know

01:27:32   any so anybody at the phone company or whatever, you know, you're just

01:27:36   Why do you think they're doing this why why would you recommend an absolutely unencrypted?

01:27:44   type of SMS

01:27:47   So why isn't it encrypted is the quiet like why is Google pushing this thing put the encryption issue aside, right?

01:27:55   Why is Google pushing this new technology? The exclusive story they gave went to Deeter Bone at

01:28:03   The Verge. It's a good story. I will put it in the show notes. But the gist of it, it was largely

01:28:11   framed in comparison to iMessage, right? And I don't know how much of that was Deeter framing

01:28:19   it that way and how much of it was that's the story he was told by Google as they, you know,

01:28:25   gave him the briefing and this exclusive first take on it. But it certainly makes sense that

01:28:31   it's on Google's mind, right? That they and they've been trying to it's almost comical,

01:28:35   how many times to Google has come out with some kind of chat like product, right? And yeah,

01:28:40   hasn't taken. And they even, you know, it's almost, you know, it's, it's almost embarrassing

01:28:49   how many times they've done it, including like, I guess it was two years ago, and they came out with

01:28:54   this aloe, which was even even I remember watching the keynote that our IO conference where it was

01:29:00   like, okay, we've tried a lot of things with chat before, but now we've got it. Right?

01:29:05   Apparently not.

01:29:07   But I get why iMessage is a problem for Android because iMessage has things that SMS doesn't

01:29:16   have and it's nice to have them and when people see it they think, "Well, I wish I had something

01:29:21   like that."

01:29:23   It does group chats better than SMS.

01:29:25   It has the read receipts and the delivered receipts, the little dot, dot, dot typing

01:29:32   indicator, which is, it sounds like a little thing, but that's, it's, it's, I've been thinking

01:29:40   about it ever since the story came out and noticing when I'm chatting with people, including you today,

01:29:44   setting up, you know, when to record the show. It's such a nice thing to have that dot, dot,

01:29:49   dot, right? And it's like, I know, you know, Jim's answering me, what time is good to record,

01:29:55   you know? And I know, hey, I'll just wait. I'm not, I won't put the phone away. I'll wait because,

01:30:00   you know, he's typing something. So I guess this RCS protocol has all of these things.

01:30:05   So I get why they're pushing it on those things. But why isn't it encrypted? I don't know. I

01:30:13   wonder because this is the part of it. I wouldn't bet on this thing ever taking off, frankly,

01:30:20   because it and they've signed up, they've announced it, Google's announced it, and they have

01:30:24   a slide with, you know, 100 different carriers from around the world who've sworn that they're

01:30:29   going to adopt this. But getting someone at Verizon and AT&T and T-Mobile and all these

01:30:34   other carriers around the country to say, "Yes, we will support this. Here, you can

01:30:39   use our logo when you announce it." It's very different than actually getting them

01:30:44   to support it, right? It's easy to say, "Sure, I'll do it." And it's a lot of work

01:30:49   to actually implement it. But because-

01:30:53   But nobody with an iPhone will use it.

01:30:55   Well, that's it. We can hold shelve that because then we, you know, we'll come back to it.

01:31:01   Let's say this does happen and carriers do support it. Would Apple support it in iOS?

01:31:06   Let's hold that for now. I wonder if technically, and I've been looking for it and I haven't

01:31:12   seen anybody answer it. If it's like impossible for something that's carrier based like this

01:31:18   to be end-to-end encrypted? Maybe there's a technical reason that—because it crosses

01:31:27   carrier boundaries. Do you need to have a central authority to—like when you use iMessage,

01:31:36   it all goes through Apple's servers and Apple manages the keys that you use. I don't know,

01:31:45   maybe there's a technical reason that it couldn't be end to end encrypted. But the other thing is,

01:31:50   it doesn't seem to be encrypted at all. Like, that's what I kind of don't understand. I don't

01:31:56   understand why even if it's not end to end encrypted, why isn't it at least encrypted

01:32:00   in some way? I mean, end to end encrypted. I'm not an expert on this encryption stuff,

01:32:08   but basically end to end encrypted means that when I text send an iMessage to you,

01:32:14   you, as it leaves my phone, it is encrypted with my public key and your private key. And

01:32:23   it leaves my phone and until it gets to your phone, it's not decrypted. And so there's

01:32:31   literally, and there is no mathematical way. There's no, well, I suppose there's a mathematical

01:32:36   way where you could take a trillion years to try every combination to decrypt it. But

01:32:44   there's no point where Apple has the unencrypted text of the message. That's the way you

01:32:55   want it, right? So if the FBI comes to Apple and wants to know what Jim Dower and Grouper

01:33:02   we're talking about on April 25th. Apple has, I guess, can tell them that we did text each other,

01:33:08   but they can't. There's no way, there is no version of the text that they can show them.

01:33:12   That's a good design. It would be even know that I don't know. I think so. I think that they have

01:33:17   to have the metadata on. I don't know how long they keep it, but I think that they do know because

01:33:21   it does go through Apple's servers. Hmm. But I thought all of that even going that was anonymous.

01:33:30   I don't think so. How could it be? They have to…

01:33:34   Because couldn't they say, well, did, you know, in some criminal case, did he…

01:33:40   I suppose you'd still need it, but I don't know. I didn't even think that they would be

01:33:46   able to tell that. But a different design for a chat, and this would be a bad design,

01:33:51   but a different design would be a design where my phone, the message leaves my phone

01:34:00   encrypted, it goes to Apple server and gets decrypted. And then they re encrypt it and

01:34:06   send it to you. And that there's, you know, that that still would be better than nothing.

01:34:14   I don't know, maybe it maybe that's actually not better than nothing, though. I've been

01:34:17   thinking about it maybe actually, like, you know, encryption is not end to end is worse

01:34:23   than not having encryption, because it creates the false sense that you have something protecting

01:34:28   you and you shouldn't. Yeah. I, I just can't see how they come back. A technology that

01:34:39   isn't end to end encrypted. Yeah. Not these days. Yeah. I don't know. I, you know, but

01:34:46   you know, trying to play devil's advocate here. So I think it's a nonstarter. If I were

01:34:51   at Apple, I would not want to touch this new thing. I mean, we have SMS because it's a

01:34:55   a legacy thing and we need to support it. But I wouldn't want to get into a new thing

01:35:00   that's not end-to-end encrypted. But, you know, is that, would that be perceived though

01:35:07   as being spiteful, like protective of iMessage compared to this new thing?

01:35:13   Or would it be, again, protecting people's privacy and security?

01:35:19   Right. By not creating an illusion that, you know, that this new thing is anything but,

01:35:25   know, insecure. Right? I wouldn't be a bit surprised. Let's just assume that this goes

01:35:31   through and the carriers adopted I wouldn't be a bit surprised for Apple to come out and

01:35:35   say we're not going to support it because it's wide open and dangerous or potentially,

01:35:41   you know, written fraught with problems or I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see them

01:35:46   say something like that. Yeah.

01:35:48   Yeah, I don't I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Apple to support

01:35:55   this in iOS.

01:35:58   Not unless they take, you know, tighten it down some.

01:36:02   Yeah.

01:36:03   And I don't mean it's just it's just wide open.

01:36:05   And I don't think that they need to be protective of it.

01:36:07   I think if there was a good encryption story to go along with this new protocol, I think

01:36:12   I would bet that Apple would support it.

01:36:14   I don't think Apple needs to be overly protective of iMessage.

01:36:18   No.

01:36:22   And I don't think it would stop people from using it.

01:36:27   iMessage, that is.

01:36:28   It's not like I would switch.

01:36:31   But it would be nice.

01:36:32   I wouldn't switch.

01:36:33   In theory, though, it would be nice that when somebody who has an Android phone texts me,

01:36:35   it would be nice to get some of the features that iMessage has.

01:36:41   Yeah, I wouldn't use it. Yeah, I don't expect Apple to do it. Isn't it weird? I

01:36:50   think iMessage—I've been meaning to write about this, but it's almost too—maybe

01:36:56   it's a better podcast topic because it's not quite a cohesive idea, but I can't help

01:37:01   but think this article really rejiggered it in my head. I've come back to it every couple

01:37:07   months for a while. But I feel like iMessage is pervasive amongst those of us who have

01:37:15   Apple devices and amongst my friends and family. It's by far and away the number one way

01:37:23   that we communicate.

01:37:24   Dave: Absolutely.

01:37:25   And it's like me and you. That's the only way we communicate other than when we're recording

01:37:33   a podcast. Like, yeah. And when we're face to face, like an Apple event. Other than that,

01:37:40   I mean, it's all I message when's the last time you or I emailed each other? I don't

01:37:44   know if you emailed me. I don't see it.

01:37:46   Wow. It was. It must be years since we emailed. I mean, even even if we're going to chat on

01:37:52   the phone, right? We set it up.

01:37:54   message first. Yeah, we'll usually text each other and say, "Hey, you got a minute?"

01:37:57   And then you'll call or I'll call or whatever, but it's all based in iMessage.

01:38:02   But I feel like even though it's everywhere, and I feel like it's really reliable, and I know every

01:38:10   once in a while messages come out of sync, and I still see it once in a while. Like if I don't use

01:38:16   use my iPad for over a week and then I turn it on,

01:38:20   iMessages start coming in funny,

01:38:24   or I'll get notifications for ones

01:38:26   that I shouldn't be getting notifications of

01:38:29   because they're old, but it's like,

01:38:30   I suspect what's happened is that those notifications

01:38:34   are queued up, that they've been there waiting

01:38:37   to make a noise.

01:38:40   I've been waiting all week to ping you.

01:38:42   (laughing)

01:38:44   But I feel like all of those things have gotten better

01:38:46   And it's super reliable, it's super fast.

01:38:49   It's everything people say Apple can't do.

01:38:52   It's super reliable, fast online service.

01:38:55   It handles, I looked this up,

01:38:58   they haven't announced numbers in a long time.

01:39:01   Like years ago, they would say like how many,

01:39:05   many, many years ago, like they would say

01:39:07   how many iMessages they sent in a day or something.

01:39:11   But they haven't released any numbers like that in years.

01:39:14   so it's not worth using the old numbers.

01:39:16   And the only one I saw that was more recent

01:39:18   was like in 2016, Eddy Cue said that at its peak,

01:39:23   the highest peak that they had reached

01:39:25   was 200,000 iMessages per second.

01:39:28   Now obviously that's a peak, that's not,

01:39:31   you can't just multiply by how many seconds

01:39:33   are in a day to figure out how many iMessages

01:39:36   they handle a day.

01:39:36   But the funny thing about that is I was Googling it,

01:39:40   I got it from a Business Insider article,

01:39:42   And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting, but it rings a bell."

01:39:45   And then at the bottom of the article, it said that Q revealed this information on John

01:39:49   Gruber's The Talk Show.

01:39:56   I thought that was funny.

01:39:57   I thought that was funny that I've done some research and discovered something that

01:40:02   I was told on my own podcast.

01:40:07   were probably online shopping for keyboards at that point.

01:40:10   Right. I don't know. I just, I know that Apple can't sell iMessage. It's not like they're,

01:40:19   you know, number one, they don't need the cash last I heard. But it's, you know, they can't

01:40:23   effectively spin it off into an independent company. It, you know, it doesn't make any

01:40:30   sense. It's integrated into the whole iCloud identity and experience. But like when you

01:40:38   see something like WhatsApp selling for $20 billion, again, it's not like they can sell

01:40:45   iMessage, but I think it has to be considered like a $20 billion asset to the company. And

01:40:53   if they did release the number of active users and how many messages a day they sent, I can't

01:41:00   can't help but suspect that those numbers would be just staggering.

01:41:04   Well, even at a peak at 200,000 per second.

01:41:10   Second. What have they said? Didn't they release how many active devices? Are there

01:41:16   a billion active Apple devices?

01:41:18   Yeah, I believe it's over a billion now.

01:41:21   Yeah, I think last year they announced that there's a billion Apple devices in active

01:41:26   use. But that's really, really, really hard to extrapolate how many iMessage users there

01:41:33   might be from that.

01:41:34   Yeah. Yeah, you can.

01:41:35   I'm going to say, though, that I would guess at least 99% of those people do use iMessage,

01:41:44   right? I mean, who has an Apple product and doesn't use iMessage at all? I mean, probably

01:41:51   the most likely would be somebody who uses like a Mac and doesn't have any of the other devices.

01:41:57   Like I could see if you're just like a, depending on your job, you know, you might, you know,

01:42:01   use a Mac because you needed a Mac, but that you're not into the whole iCloud thing.

01:42:06   Whereas like iPhone and iPad users, I just can't see how, who, who doesn't use iMessage.

01:42:11   But if well, billion devices, I mean, like how many, I mean, Christ, I must have 20 of them

01:42:17   myself. Like it's not a one-to-one, you know? I mean, I've got, I'm using three of them right now.

01:42:23   I've got the watch, I've got my phone in my pocket and a MacBook I'm talking to you through.

01:42:27   My 90-year-old grandmother iMessaged me last night.

01:42:33   You know, she has an iPad. She uses Message.

01:42:38   Yeah, you know what's funny? My mom iMessages me now too. And, you know, she's not 90, but,

01:42:46   you know, not technically adept. My dad, too, my mom and dad both iMessage me. And

01:42:53   they've been using email since, I don't know, 1997 or something, you know. They're way better

01:43:01   at iMessage than email, you know. It's—and I think they're more—it's just a more natural

01:43:08   way to communicate. You know, you want to—here's something funny. My mother and I

01:43:15   I message all the time.

01:43:19   That's how we communicate because she's back in Canada.

01:43:22   So they're actually here right now.

01:43:25   And we're looking at my father's phone and he doesn't get any texts or any calls or anything

01:43:33   on his phone.

01:43:34   Well, he turned on "Do Not Disturb."

01:43:42   She said, "Did you know you had do not disturb on?"

01:43:44   And he's, "What, really?

01:43:46   Yeah."

01:43:48   That's the only thing that he did on his phone.

01:43:50   Now he plays like solitaire and stuff on his phone

01:43:54   and Scrabble or something,

01:43:57   but he turned on do not disturb so he gets nothing.

01:44:01   It was hilarious just to look at his face like,

01:44:03   "Oh shit, you found it."

01:44:05   - Just ballpark though.

01:44:08   How many active iMessage users do you think there are?

01:44:12   given that there's a billion devices.

01:44:13   - Oh my God, I would have to think that it's most.

01:44:20   - Well, but how many people though?

01:44:21   I'm gonna just--

01:44:23   - Oh, a billion devices.

01:44:25   - I'm gonna say 250 million people.

01:44:28   - Oh, I think there's probably more than that.

01:44:31   - Right, 'cause then that would be like

01:44:33   four devices per person,

01:44:34   and that's probably more than typical.

01:44:37   Like, 'cause there's gotta be,

01:44:39   There have to be tens and tens, if not 100 million people

01:44:44   who only have one Apple device and it's an iPhone, right?

01:44:49   - No, I agree with that, yeah, absolutely.

01:44:52   - People who don't want a Mac and don't want an iPad

01:44:56   or can't afford both and have no interest in the Apple Watch,

01:45:01   there have to be, I don't know, 300 million, 400 million?

01:45:05   It's gotta be a big number.

01:45:07   Now I know Facebook says they have like two billion users,

01:45:10   but it's not gonna be a number that big.

01:45:13   But I think by, I don't know, I just can't help

01:45:17   but think that iMessage is in that ballpark at least.

01:45:21   Right?

01:45:22   - I would go somewhere between three and 400 million.

01:45:25   - Right.

01:45:26   And probably, who knows how many messages a day.

01:45:31   It's crazy.

01:45:33   I don't know, I kind of hope, if anybody at Apple

01:45:35   listening and you're planning a WWDC keynote. I would love a little segment, like an update on

01:45:40   iMessage and tell us how many users there are and how many messages you handle a day.

01:45:46   Tom Bilyeu (01h00m 10s): I would just like to know how many messages

01:45:49   they handle a day. The users say that's cool, but I want to boggle the mind of how many messages

01:45:57   are handled a day.

01:45:59   Yeah, it's got to be crazy. 200,000 a second is nuts. If you think about it, like, I, you

01:46:04   know, I, it makes the idea of of architecting a system that would handle 200,000 messages

01:46:13   per second, or be able to do that. And that's like a two year old number, I believe. So

01:46:19   it's surely reached a much higher peak since then. Maybe 200,000 is the average now. It

01:46:25   makes me feel as though my understanding of how computers work is at the level of

01:46:31   two tin cans and a piece of string. Yeah, yeah. I don't disagree. Yeah, and I, but

01:46:41   nobody really talks about it until, you know, and nobody really talks about how

01:46:44   the grand success that iMessage is until a purported iMessage killer comes up.

01:46:51   Like the only time anybody ever messages or mentions it is when-

01:46:56   You know, iMessages is such an integral part of how we communicate now.

01:47:01   So we kind of take it for granted.

01:47:04   Right. It's easy to take for granted.

01:47:06   Yeah, because it's just there and it always works.

01:47:09   So, you know, if I need to get a hold of you, the first thing I'm going to do is just, you know, go into messages and, you know, just give you a quick ping.

01:47:19   quick ping and that's how it works.

01:47:22   - It's also kind of a neat success story

01:47:25   about the Apple way of doing things

01:47:27   and this sort of asking forgiveness instead of afterwards,

01:47:32   instead of asking for permission,

01:47:35   the way that they piggybacked on SMS on the iPhone, right?

01:47:40   Because it was, I don't know,

01:47:41   a couple of years into the iPhone when they announced it.

01:47:44   And it's such a clever way that you don't,

01:47:49   don't bite you know and I if it was another company that you didn't trust you might say

01:47:56   devious but I think people do trust it and you can turn it off you know what I mean it's not hard

01:48:01   to turn off iMessage and only use SMS uh it's you know any anybody who's ever used the settings app

01:48:11   to change anything could find that if they want to it's not too hard it's not buried it's not like

01:48:16   they used obtuse language. But it's really clever the way that they turned it on by default.

01:48:24   And if you just all you do is get a new phone or update your phone to the new OS and all

01:48:29   of a sudden if you're communicating to another person who's also using iMessage, your message

01:48:34   will be blue instead of green automatically. And I don't feel like they get enough credit

01:48:40   for how, you know, how, how, and it's almost like that's what it was so it's so seamless

01:48:47   that that's almost why people don't give them credit because it's like we did you didn't

01:48:50   even notice it.

01:48:52   Yep. But that's how they do a lot of this stuff. It's just so easy and so integrated

01:48:58   into the operating system and how we use the device. You know, it of course it's there.

01:49:06   Right. That's what you expect.

01:49:07   All right. And just circling back on the encryption thing, I've told this story many times, but

01:49:14   many, many years ago, I was speaking to somebody at Apple who was there for it. And

01:49:20   I guess it was Jobs himself, because Steve Jobs was still there, but the message came down from

01:49:27   on high that we should do this messaging thing. And rule one is design it from the point where

01:49:37   it was just a blank sheet of paper in front of the engineers who were working on it. Rule

01:49:42   one is let's architect this from the ground up so that we can never see the contents of

01:49:47   an iMessage. So that if law enforcement in any country around the world comes to us and

01:49:52   says, "Show us these messages," we can look them right in the eye and say, "We

01:49:57   can't." Not, "We won't," but, "We can't." What a great thing. How much of

01:50:04   our communications now are securely encrypted end-to-end that wouldn't have been if not

01:50:12   for iMessage. It's tremendous. Like email, there's ways to do encryption in email,

01:50:17   but it's such a pain in the ass that nobody I know uses it regularly.

01:50:21   No, me neither. That's why something like what Google is presenting here stands out

01:50:29   so much because it's not.

01:50:32   - Right, and in 2018 it just, it's almost like,

01:50:36   and when iMessage came out, the encryption angle

01:50:39   wasn't a big part of the story.

01:50:40   They definitely mentioned it,

01:50:42   and maybe that's just me personally

01:50:44   not being as privacy-minded then as I am now.

01:50:48   Maybe they were trying to get my attention to it,

01:50:51   but I just didn't notice or pick up on it.

01:50:53   But that's, you know, it's one way

01:50:59   that I think Apple was forward-thinking on this.

01:51:01   I think that Apple kind of had their "come to Jesus, wake up" moment at some point

01:51:08   around 12 years ago, 12, 13 years ago, where they sort of looked at everything they were

01:51:13   doing and, you know, because it's almost comical how little encryption there was on

01:51:20   some of this stuff. You know, like the way that the original iPhone, you could just plug

01:51:22   it into any computer and go into iTunes and look inside it.

01:51:25   (laughs)

01:51:28   - But it was all so new then.

01:51:30   - Right, and who really thought

01:51:33   that you needed to encrypt your phone?

01:51:34   - I mean, if we were still able to do that now,

01:51:39   that might be a problem.

01:51:41   - You know how there's these things now,

01:51:43   like there's these services

01:51:46   where there's an Israeli company

01:51:48   and law enforcement can buy a $20,000 device

01:51:51   that they say can get you into an iPhone.

01:51:54   There's a couple of these, but they're very expensive.

01:52:00   It's just comical to think that, hey, when the iPhone first came out, the thing that

01:52:04   could let the cops into your phone was called iTunes.

01:52:06   iTunes and a 30-pin USB connector, and anybody could get into any phone.

01:52:16   It was crazy.

01:52:20   I mean, that's what it was. And look where we are now. Right. I mean, I appreciate Apple's

01:52:30   stance on encryption and privacy and, and everything else. Would you I mean,

01:52:35   think I to me that it's it's one last thing on this chat service, this new chat protocol,

01:52:40   not being encrypted, and why it sticks out to me, it to me, it would be like if somebody came out

01:52:45   with a new phone, you know, like the essential phone from Andy Rubin's company came out and

01:52:50   there was no encryption on the phone, you know, like, just put your thumb on a button and you're in

01:52:55   like, that's the way they used to work. But it's, you know,

01:53:01   it is not the way that they would work today. No, and it can't. And again, this is why

01:53:12   this thing from Google sticks out so badly. Yeah. Because you know, you're looking at it saying,

01:53:17   really, and you and the thing that I find irritating is, you know, that they know better,

01:53:22   right? The people who were working on this exactly. They they know, you know,

01:53:26   I don't know if anybody out there can explain. If they know if it's other than, you know,

01:53:34   maybe the carriers don't want it. I wonder if it's political, like, do the carriers like the fact

01:53:39   that they can see your text messages, you know? Yeah, but I mean, the carriers didn't like a lot

01:53:45   of what Apple did either. And they did it anyway. No, but that's the difference between Apple and

01:53:50   Google and Android, right? The carriers still have a ton of say over what's on Android, you know,

01:53:54   on the ones that they that the phones that they sell themselves, like, when you go to Verizon,

01:54:01   and buy an Android phone that has a Verizon logo on the phone, you know, Verizon has all sorts of

01:54:06   stuff in there and all sorts of say about what's in there. Like, I don't think those phones ship

01:54:11   with—I'm 99% sure they don't ship with the Allo app, right? Like, you buy the Google Pixel and you

01:54:17   get stuff like that. But I don't know, I can't help but wonder if it's technical or if it's

01:54:24   lazy or if it's political, or if there's too many—maybe it's not even a U.S. thing, but to get

01:54:30   this to be a worldwide standard, there's too many carriers around the world who, for political

01:54:34   reasons don't want these messages encrypted. And then to get everybody on the same page,

01:54:42   but regardless, it shows the advantages. And again, there's disadvantages too, but there are

01:54:53   advantages to Apple's ability to do the whole things themselves and just say, "Here's what's

01:54:58   going to happen in September when this new version of iOS comes out." All of your texts, when you send

01:55:03   them to other iPhone users will be over iMessage instead of SMS and they'll be end-to-end encrypted

01:55:09   and that's it. Perfect. Anything else you wanted to talk about this week?

01:55:16   No, no I thought that was great. Everybody can read your fine work and the work of your

01:55:29   Colleagues Dave and Sean King Dave Dave mark who you mentioned before I should mention and Sean King over at loop

01:55:36   insight calm the loop and

01:55:38   And then on Twitter they can get their fill of Dalrymple. What's your Twitter handle Jay Dalrymple?

01:55:44   Yeah, there you go

01:55:47   Jim it's always a pleasure talking to you

01:55:49   Yeah, I love it. I'll see you soon right. We'll be at WWDC before we know it

01:55:53   Do you have your you're doing a party this this year? I I am doing a party this year. Yes

01:55:58   It's it said the Ritz Club in right right around the corner from where WWDC has held

01:56:10   the Convention Center right around the corner from everything's everything in San Jose

01:56:14   is right around the corner from the convention.

01:56:16   So yeah, yeah, that's true.

01:56:18   So yeah, it's gonna be fun.

01:56:19   What night What night is that gonna be?

01:56:21   Monday, Monday night, that's gonna be the night the beard bash.

01:56:25   Well, I look forward to that.

01:56:27   look forward to seeing you there. Yeah. Maybe we'll do a

01:56:31   podcast there. Maybe we'll get into that podcast layer again.

01:56:35   Remember last year?

01:56:36   That was so much fun. What we drank like case of Heineken you

01:56:40   and I and Matt trance. Well,

01:56:41   I did I did I availed myself of the the complimentary Heineken

01:56:46   I will admit and I did enjoy them. But I would have to say

01:56:49   the we that drank the whole case during the course of the show is

01:56:53   largely you.

01:56:54   (laughing)

01:56:56   - Well, it's not my fault you guys drink slow.

01:57:01   - Yeah, once you get going, it is really something to see.

01:57:03   I remember it 'cause that's fun too

01:57:04   because we could look at each other and I'm on these,

01:57:09   there's a new podcast called The Menu Bar.

01:57:12   Have you heard of it?

01:57:12   Zach Cichy and I'm gonna be the guest on the next episode.

01:57:17   And I was telling Zach when I recorded the other day

01:57:20   that, boy, I don't record many episodes out of,

01:57:25   I think this is, you right now, Jim,

01:57:27   are episode 220 of this incarnation of the talk show.

01:57:32   I've only done a handful of these over the years

01:57:35   that weren't done over Skype.

01:57:37   But when you do do one in person,

01:57:40   you could see it's so much, there's eye contact

01:57:42   and little bits of body English

01:57:44   that can really make the conversation flow.

01:57:47   And I just-- - Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:57:49   I just remember last year in that podcast studio that Apple provides to podcasters inside

01:57:55   WWDC, I remember looking at Drance when you were popping like Heineken 6 and I was just like...

01:58:03   And I didn't have to say anything, but it was just like... It really is like drinking water for him.

01:58:15   It's like drinking so much fun drinking water at the end of a race through the desert.

01:58:19   After a while I just stopped offering to get you guys one. I just went and got them myself.

01:58:25   I should double check about that and maybe schedule it. I actually have, I forgot entirely

01:58:28   about that but uh do you, I don't even know. I'm guessing they'll bring that back. I think

01:58:33   that they considered that podcast thing a big success. I don't know. Yeah but I plan on

01:58:40   recording one for mine that week.

01:58:44   Wow, such a nice setup. Anyway, I'll see you there. Looking forward to it.

01:58:48   And as always, I greatly appreciate your time. It's always a pleasure to have you on the show, Jim.

01:58:52   Love it. Always, always.

01:58:55   All right. Talk to you soon.

01:58:56   Thanks, Jon.