0:00:00Marco specifically wrote like a pretty just called it off
0:00:03Yeah off which so I didn't get that impression
0:00:06But when I when I read his article about it and think about it and I wonder and then I think back to Mg
0:00:13Siegler's kind of post walking back his
0:00:16Tweet about the Apple TV stuff. I wonder if we saw apples kind of plan B this week
0:00:22That's an interesting theory. I hadn't thought about that
0:00:25Marcos called off
0:00:28And he just says
0:00:30Something felt a bit off about this week's Apple event part of it was the lack of surprises
0:00:34Which isn't Apple's fault all of the product updates which while nice
0:00:38Were incremental and predictable none of the pricing was a surprise in fact the only unexpected
0:00:44Product announcement is the zombie iPad 2 sticking around for another year
0:00:48Shamelessly at the same price as last year, and it goes on for there, and it's a good piece. I think it's fair
0:00:52I don't think it's
0:00:54reactionary Nick Bilton had a piece on the bits blog for the New York Times that I think was a little bit more harsh and
0:01:01I did link to that one
0:01:03That see my
0:01:07my whole thing about that is that those people weren't around in like
0:01:102000 when the big news was that the the g4 tower went dual processor, you know, it was like oh crazy
0:01:17I got to get that thing. So
0:01:20There is kind of a faction that expects and you know Steve spoiled us like something crazy to happen every year
0:01:27And I remember, you know six years ago when I was at Forbes we would have to write the story
0:01:32Two or three times a year Apple let us down
0:01:34They didn't they didn't change the world today or something like that
0:01:38so I will say go go back and read the old press release archives from
0:01:432000 and in 2001 and 2002 or was like, yep new
0:01:49new mouse design or something. No, that actually would be more interesting.
0:01:54Do you ever notice, I'm sure you have, in fact we maybe even talked about it before, but every once in a while,
0:01:59because of the vagaries of different CMSs, but that most modern blogs and CMSs have a, the URL slug for an article
0:02:10is based on the title or the headline, whatever you want to call it. And then sometimes after publishing,
0:02:16people change the headline but the URL stays the same because it was whatever
0:02:22when it first went in. I know Bloomberg often gets caught by this or Business
0:02:26Week and they sometimes have, you know, like the URL sometimes gives away
0:02:31something that's no longer in the article. And I thought with Biltons it's
0:02:35kind of interesting. His headline, the one that stayed, is "Longing for the Wow at
0:02:39Apple's Product Showcases." But the URL slug says, and I think it's a little bit
0:02:45more apt, the repetition of Apple Keynote presentations feels boring.
0:02:52Interesting.
0:02:53So first of all, I do notice that I, as a writer, love and hate that feature, and every
0:03:01CMS I design is going to have the ability to change that slug without ruining the…
0:03:07Right.
0:03:08…without sending a 404.
0:03:10But I would also say that especially at some place like The Times, I don't know how much
0:03:16control Nick has over his headlines.
0:03:18I'm guessing that he writes the first one perhaps, but I know for a fact actually at
0:03:24The Times that the copy desk has a role in headlines and maybe even final say.
0:03:29So I wouldn't say that that's Nick's headline, but I do find it interesting as
0:03:35you say.
0:03:36It's a different point though, right?
0:03:37Right, exactly.
0:03:38And then it even gets to it at the bottom of his piece and it and it says, you know, it's just built in writing
0:03:44Showmanship aside some saw Tuesday's announcement as another example of a company that is forgetting how to innovate Apple has
0:03:53quote
0:03:56gone from building things consumers never ever dreamed they would need
0:04:01To falling short at giving them what they want said Moshe
0:04:05Cohen an assistant professor of finance and economics at Columbia Business School the problem
0:04:10He said is Apple needs more visionaries now to me. That's a big pile of horseshit
0:04:15that lat that paragraph right there and that is one sense of you know,
0:04:20The like you said like for years perennially going back all the way to you know, 1999-2000
0:04:27That Apple keynotes have often
0:04:30quote disappointed people is this you know the lack of any kind of amazing new game-changing the world will never be the same hardware
0:04:37Event after event after event whereas the other point to me is more subtle the idea that the repetition of these
0:04:45presentations the way that there's a formula and a pacing and regardless of
0:04:50What's being announced or how it's being announced that it's you know it is for lack of a better word formulaic
0:04:57And if you just put the content aside,
0:05:02what it, you know, and we can get to that later,
0:05:04but just that there's, you know,
0:05:06a sameness to Apple's product introductions.
0:05:10- Yeah, that's really interesting,
0:05:11to the point where there's, you know,
0:05:12there's fan fiction, right?
0:05:14Like there's every time people write on their blogs
0:05:18or wherever in the Verge forums,
0:05:21like almost a script that they expect Tim Cook
0:05:24to read off of.
0:05:26So yeah, that's interesting.
0:05:27I wonder if they'll switch that up.
0:05:30You know, you see they've added some parts of it
0:05:33like that opening video that they've now shown
0:05:37probably hopefully for the last time.
0:05:39It was a good video, but--
0:05:40- Yeah, I don't think you can, I think twice
0:05:41is stretching it.
0:05:42- Right, yeah, and different audiences,
0:05:44and maybe some people were at this week's thing
0:05:47and not at WWDC or whatever, but it is true
0:05:51that the formula has not changed.
0:05:55in stark contrast to every other tech company,
0:05:58which probably actually to Apple's credit,
0:06:02puts on just the most ridiculous, insane product launches.
0:06:07Like, I don't know if you've been to a Samsung one, but.
0:06:10- I've never been to one, but I mean, the one last year,
0:06:12the Galaxy S4 one, I watched online, live.
0:06:15- Yep.
0:06:15- I talked about it, I mean, I forget it was on the show,
0:06:17but it was preposterous.
0:06:19- Oh, I've been to one, I went to one in Barcelona
0:06:21for Mobile World Congress a couple years ago,
0:06:24And I was just so confused.
0:06:27It was just very, very strange event.
0:06:29So maybe to Apple's credit, don't break what's,
0:06:34don't fix what's not broken or whatever that cliche is.
0:06:37- Well, and maybe another factor too is that
0:06:41for as much as, in the last 12 months
0:06:46that Apple came under some criticism/skepticism,
0:06:52I'm not quite sure what the right word is, about the long stretch between last year's
0:06:58iPad introduction, which was exactly 52 weeks ago, and the fact that they didn't introduce
0:07:07anything last winter or spring, and then WWDC really only – I mean, it was a major introduction,
0:07:14iOS 7, but it was software only, and it was coming later in the year, that they really
0:07:19went 11 months without a major new product.
0:07:24It's a hardware product.
0:07:28Which is so annoying because the software, A, matters more really for your day-to-day
0:07:33usage, and B, it's probably, in terms of man hours, more of a challenge to make.
0:07:38I don't know, I just made that up.
0:07:41I bet the software takes more effort than the hardware.
0:07:46But it's credit is the hardware for some reason.
0:07:49- And you could even argue though that because
0:07:50it didn't ship to consumers until September,
0:07:53that even the software, even iOS 7 doesn't count
0:07:56as being released until September,
0:07:58even though it was shown in June.
0:08:00- And iOS 6 was released in September last year.
0:08:03- But even given that search, my point is,
0:08:05even given that long stretch, which I don't think
0:08:08was any kind of sign of weakness,
0:08:09I think it was just the way things worked out
0:08:12with the product roadmaps across the board,
0:08:16that there just happened to be a stretch where there wasn't anything new.
0:08:20And obviously if they were concerned about that stretch, what they could have done easily
0:08:24was keep the iPad 4 until September or February or whatever and have a rather disappointing
0:08:38introduction of that rather than release it just six months after the iPad 3.
0:08:43I think their thought is we're gonna move as fast as we can.
0:08:47And if that means that moving as fast as we can,
0:08:50we end up with gaps in our product introduction schedule
0:08:54because we've introduced everything
0:08:55as soon as we feel like we really can,
0:08:57so be it better than holding stuff back
0:09:00just to fill out a regular schedule.
0:09:03- Yeah, I think there's trade-offs either way,
0:09:07but I think I would not disagree.
0:09:09And again, what we don't know is what they had in mind
0:09:13to perhaps announce earlier this year or even right now,
0:09:18but didn't, and that could be any range of things
0:09:21from this TV that people have been expecting
0:09:24for a long time and now seems to either just not exist
0:09:27or be very far in the future, to the wearable stuff.
0:09:31Maybe they were working on it and said,
0:09:33"No, this is not ready.
0:09:35"We need more people, we need more ideas here.
0:09:38"Maybe there's something on the component side
0:09:40that they need better or more of or something like that.
0:09:44So what we don't know is the unknown unknowns, I guess.
0:09:49But I just find it hard, and we'll see.
0:09:54Like if it's two years from now and we're doing this again
0:09:57and they're still just showing off kind of minor upgrades
0:10:00to existing product lines,
0:10:03then maybe there is something to question.
0:10:05But for now, I would say that it's still
0:10:07a little early on that.
0:10:08- Yeah, I agree with that.
0:10:09And as for the repetition, I keep trying to make it and it's hard for me to articulate.
0:10:16But even given that year-long gap in events, if you look in the broader sense, longer term,
0:10:21you know, just 10 years, or even just, you know, 3 years and kind of go for the post-Steve
0:10:27Jobs era, although I think that the events, you know, there's a continuity from when Steve
0:10:33Jobs was ring leading these events.
0:10:37They don't feel altogether different.
0:10:38I mean, his presence is obviously missed.
0:10:41Maybe, you know, I mean, he was clearly the best presenter that they have.
0:10:45He has a magnetism, an onstage magnetism that, you know, it's once in a lifetime occurrence.
0:10:53But it's still, they still feel like the same events.
0:10:56And the thing that Apple has that none of its competitors do is in the long term, they
0:11:01have these events with a regularity
0:11:05that allows them to be repetitious.
0:11:07Did I just make up a word, is repetitious a word?
0:11:11- I think it is, it's a great word.
0:11:13- It should be a word.
0:11:14- Yeah, no, I agree, and you could go both ways with it.
0:11:19You could mock it for being the same thing over and over,
0:11:21or you could applaud it for actually having substance
0:11:25that they can fill into those blanks
0:11:27and not have to worry about brainstorming
0:11:31some crazy new format just for the sake of doing it.
0:11:35And some things have changed.
0:11:37They seem to have pulled back on the,
0:11:40we brought a bunch of developers to Apple HQ for two weeks
0:11:44and let them loose on the new SDK.
0:11:46Here's a bunch of apps that they made.
0:11:48We haven't seen that in a while.
0:11:50- The events are a lot like their products.
0:11:53They evolve slowly.
0:11:55- Right, and part of that I think is
0:11:57because probably they haven't had any crazy new features
0:12:01that they would wanna show off with six different apps
0:12:05or something like that.
0:12:05Whereas in the past they did
0:12:07because everything was so new.
0:12:09Maybe we'll see with this wearable thing,
0:12:12if it happens next year,
0:12:13that they did have another bootcamp
0:12:15where they had 20 developers spend a month
0:12:18in living in tents in Cupertino
0:12:20and here's what they came up with.
0:12:22- Think about a product, I always think of the,
0:12:26a pro MacBook. And let's, I'm talking long term, so let's even consider the PowerBook.
0:12:33I'm not going to say it's unchanged, but there is a very clear lineage right from today's
0:12:41brand new 13 and 15 inch MacBook Pros, the ones that were just announced, you know, four
0:12:48days ago as we record all the way back to the original titanium PowerBook G4
0:12:55which I forget what year it came out but I'm thinking I think it was like 2001 or
0:13:00so right that it was titanium not aluminum but it was colored the same and
0:13:07you know there were some problems with using titanium and they didn't take too
0:13:11many years before they switch to aluminum and really ever since then I
0:13:15I mean, again, there's huge differences in performance and thickness and weight and stuff
0:13:19like that.
0:13:20But at each single step of the way, the pro Power Books, Mac Books have really kind of
0:13:26evolved very slowly.
0:13:28And there's never really been a radical – and who knows, maybe some year, one of these years,
0:13:32they're going to unveil a pro Mac Book that's as much of a change as the brand new Mac Pro
0:13:39is, right?
0:13:41But they haven't done that yet.
0:13:42And I think mainly because they haven't seen the need.
0:13:45You know, and you don't really see people
0:13:47complaining about that.
0:13:48And I think the events are sort of the same way.
0:13:51- I agree, and it was 2001, you were right.
0:13:53I think a lot of that is, and if you see it,
0:13:57it's that everyone is copying that look too,
0:13:59and for all of the products.
0:14:01So, you know, and I expect that to be the case
0:14:06for the iPhone and iPad too.
0:14:10I don't expect in even maybe in 10 years that the iPhone looks drastically different than
0:14:17it does today or the iPad.
0:14:18I'm sure they'll be thinner and I'll be – I don't know.
0:14:21What do you think of these curved phones?
0:14:24I've never used one but it doesn't seem like that's a direction to pursue but I
0:14:28don't know.
0:14:29No.
0:14:30Samsung which came out with one even then said that it was experimental and they're
0:14:36only releasing it in one market.
0:14:37I don't know if it was like South Korea or something, but that it was some kind of experiment.
0:14:42I mean, it was—I don't have the link handy, but it was like a statement to the verge or
0:14:47something where they really just wanted to put it in the consumer hands and see if these
0:14:50curved screens hold up in real world use, which seems like a very strange thing to admit.
0:14:56I guess they're trying to say, "Are they going to crack when you put them in your pocket?"
0:14:59or something like that because they're curved.
0:15:01It just seems like that—that seems like a question you should have answered before
0:15:04it came to market.
0:15:06I think it kind of speaks to Samsung's development process.
0:15:10- Wasn't one of the Google Nexus phones curved though,
0:15:13as well?
0:15:13- Yeah, I thought so too.
0:15:15I wasn't sure why everybody was making a big deal
0:15:16out of that, although maybe it was curved the other way,
0:15:19instead of side to side, it was curved the other way,
0:15:23but either way, I never really saw the point of it.
0:15:25- Yeah.
0:15:27I do like your analogy, so talk about the different iPad
0:15:32models that we have available to us.
0:15:35Now I do like your analogy to whether you're carrying it
0:15:40with a MacBook or just using it as your main computer.
0:15:45- Or at least main portable computer.
0:15:48- Yeah, exactly.
0:15:49I think it's interesting now that they do have
0:15:52kind of chip parity and power parity
0:15:55that we will start to see which size people gravitate toward
0:16:00whether it is the smaller one or the bigger one.
0:16:03- Yeah, I think so too.
0:16:05And I think, and it's one of those things where Apple is,
0:16:08I'd be surprised if they did,
0:16:10but I don't think they're ever gonna break down publicly
0:16:14how those sales are falling.
0:16:16They'll say, as they have, how many iPads total
0:16:20they've sold in a quarter.
0:16:22And they'll give you, I guess they give us still
0:16:25average selling price, or that there's a way
0:16:26to work backwards to it, and then you can kind of make
0:16:30guesses from there, but it's a lot of guessing
0:16:34from the outside as to who's buying what.
0:16:35You kind of just have to eyeball it, I think,
0:16:37when you're out in public and see what,
0:16:39which iPads you see people using.
0:16:42- I wonder if there's a way for one of those
0:16:45app SDK analytics packages like Flurry
0:16:49to tell the screen size.
0:16:51- I think that there is.
0:16:52I'm almost certain that there is,
0:16:55that there's like an API that you can tell
0:16:58what the physical size of a screen is.
0:17:00- You wouldn't be able to use resolution by itself.
0:17:03And you'd know, I don't think, I mean, again, we haven't done a, nobody's done a teardown
0:17:07on these or run, you know, one of those system utilities that reports the exact CPU speed,
0:17:14etc.
0:17:15I mean, who knows, once some, you know, these things come out in public, and people can
0:17:19run those things, who knows, maybe the iPad Air is slightly faster than the iPad Mini.
0:17:24But it seems like since they're saying a seven, I think it I think it's the same a seven in
0:17:30both devices.
0:17:31So yeah, you wouldn't be able to use that either.
0:17:34- Yeah, I did a little math and I found that the density
0:17:37of the iPad Air is less than the iPad Mini,
0:17:41which makes sense because they're fitting a,
0:17:45the main difference seems to be just the size of the screen.
0:17:48So there's probably gonna be a little more empty air
0:17:50in the air.
0:17:51I'm gonna stick Mini, I think,
0:17:55I wanna go to an Apple store and try them both.
0:17:58But for me, the Mini, for where I use it,
0:18:02makes the most sense still, which is mostly around,
0:18:05I read in bed with it, I read, I travel,
0:18:09and I do carry a 13-inch MacBook Air with me,
0:18:11and I don't plan to stop doing that anytime soon.
0:18:14So having the Mini, I think, still makes the most sense,
0:18:18but I do wanna try the Air out and just see just how.
0:18:22But one thing that I don't think
0:18:24I've seen a lot of people talking about
0:18:26that still attracts me to the Mini the most
0:18:29is the pixel density.
0:18:31Because they both have the same resolution,
0:18:35we still have the effectively iPhone pixel density
0:18:40on the iPad Mini, which to close up,
0:18:43and I do use it close up,
0:18:45will look better than the iPad pixel density.
0:18:49- Yes.
0:18:50Let's pick that up there.
0:18:51I'm gonna hold off on that,
0:18:52'cause I could go forever.
0:18:53But let's do the sponsor break,
0:18:54and then we'll come back and I'll sort of say
0:18:58what I'm thinking about which one I wanna buy.
0:19:00'Cause I'm only gonna buy one for myself.
0:19:02- Me too.
0:19:04- I'll just say this up front,
0:19:06it's way harder this year than last year, the decision.
0:19:09- That's a good cliffhanger.
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0:23:38All right, which iPad am I going to buy?
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0:23:42- Yeah, that'd be a good question.
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0:23:47Boy, I gotta tell you, it's a really tough decision.
0:23:51As I wrote about in my thing, I mean, this is really,
0:23:53I mean, it's almost the hardest thing
0:23:54or biggest section of my write-up of the event is,
0:23:58and I don't think it's to the detriment of either product,
0:24:03but I think that last year when the iPad Mini came out,
0:24:07was a maybe not easy to choose between them but obvious how to choose between
0:24:13them because they both had major trade-offs the iPad 4 or if you just
0:24:19bought it six months before and didn't want to upgrade or whatever the iPad 3
0:24:22which more or less the same device you know lightning adapter and slightly
0:24:28better performance but let's say the iPad 3 & 4 was same device versus the
0:24:33original iPad mini the the big iPad had obviously had a retina screen it was
0:24:41way heavier 1.4 pounds it was thicker than the iPad to let alone the iPad mini
0:24:47bigger heavier thicker had the a6 processor the a6x I guess but you know
0:24:53cutting-edge iOS performance and you know more expensive and I'm guessing
0:25:01more RAM, which is--
0:25:02- I think it did, yeah.
0:25:03It's all, anything performance related.
0:25:05Yeah, I think anything performance related.
0:25:07And RAM is obviously, it's more than just a convenience,
0:25:09it's performance.
0:25:12The iPad Mini, obviously, it's mini.
0:25:14It was way smaller, way lighter,
0:25:17and it was less expensive, but it had serious trade-offs.
0:25:21It did not have a retina screen,
0:25:22and once you go retina,
0:25:23it was really kind of rough to go back,
0:25:25especially given that the whole point of using an iPad
0:25:30when you already own an iPhone is mainly because it's better to read on a bigger display, right?
0:25:35I mean, you're with me. I mean, I mostly use my iPad for reading. And reading, I think,
0:25:40is the one place where the retina screen makes the biggest difference, way bigger than games,
0:25:46bigger even than video, because anything where it's moving, you don't see the details as
0:25:50much as when it's static text and you just get that crisp resolution. So you give up
0:25:55retina.
0:25:56- Especially on something so small
0:25:58that you're gonna hold closer to your face.
0:26:00- Exactly.
0:26:02I mean everybody had the same reaction
0:26:06when they saw the original Mini last year.
0:26:08This is a great device.
0:26:09I love the way it feels.
0:26:10I wish it had a retina display.
0:26:12And performance was behind too.
0:26:14It was an A5, so it was the year before's system on a chip.
0:26:18It had less RAM.
0:26:20And less RAM manifests itself in numerous ways.
0:26:23But if you're someone like me,
0:26:24I mean, I do a lot of email, a lot of Twitter, a lot of Safari,
0:26:28and other reading apps, but largely bouncing
0:26:33between Safari and Tweetbot and Mail on the iPad.
0:26:38And when you're switching apps and you
0:26:40have a lot of tabs open in Safari,
0:26:41you run into that thing where the memory gets purged.
0:26:44And when you switch back to Safari,
0:26:45the tabs have to reload.
0:26:48And that's something that gets alleviated as you add more RAM.
0:26:51And I hit that on the iPad Mini more
0:26:53than I hit when I had an iPad 3.
0:26:55- And I would say a year later,
0:26:57that's what I noticed the most of anything.
0:26:59Yeah, it definitely feels slow,
0:27:01especially relative to my iPhone 5,
0:27:04but the RAM, I see it,
0:27:06especially with more complicated apps these days.
0:27:09I see apps starting from a fresh state
0:27:11almost every time I launch them.
0:27:13- Yeah, yep, me too.
0:27:15So, you know, a lot of trade-offs
0:27:18that made it kind of obvious, like what do you value?
0:27:22And for me, even with those trade-offs, the Mini was the obvious choice because I carry,
0:27:28when I travel, I carry a MacBook Air.
0:27:35So I've already got like a 2.5-pound device in the bag.
0:27:40And so carrying the 0.68-pound Mini as my secondary thing in the bag as opposed to the
0:27:481.4 pound iPad 4 was a big difference.
0:27:52And at home, not just when I'm traveling,
0:27:56but at home when I'm using my iPad,
0:27:58it's usually at the end of the day
0:28:00and I'm on the couch and I'm reading.
0:28:02And it was, even with the non-retina screen,
0:28:06just more comfortable to sit there
0:28:07and hold it in my hand being lightweight
0:28:10and easily held in one hand.
0:28:11- For me, the test is if it falls on my face
0:28:16because I've fallen asleep, how much will it hurt my nose?
0:28:21And the retina, when I got that first retina iPad 3,
0:28:25that thing, I was scared, I thought I was,
0:28:27I literally thought I broke my nose once.
0:28:29And the Mini, on the other hand, is, you know,
0:28:32just, it'll bounce off and fall on the floor
0:28:34and then it doesn't matter, but.
0:28:36- You know, I think-- - It's a big test for me.
0:28:38- I think that the big iPad 3, 4,
0:28:41I think it got .2 pounds heavier than the iPad 2.
0:28:45I could be wrong, but I think I'm close.
0:28:48Which doesn't sound like a lot, but felt like a lot somehow.
0:28:52Somehow felt like it crossed the threshold,
0:28:55and I can see exactly what you mean,
0:28:56where it somehow crossed the fall on your face,
0:28:59and is it gonna hurt threshold?
0:29:01- I never had the two.
0:29:02I had the one, and we still have it,
0:29:04but we have it in a holder, and it's kind of on a swing arm,
0:29:08so it's mounted, and it's never able to be a face crusher.
0:29:13But that retina one, that thing is dense
0:29:16and it had that sharp edge, couldn't deal with that.
0:29:19- So the way that both of those iPads
0:29:21evolved year over year, took them both in the direction
0:29:26that addressed each of their trade-offs.
0:29:29This is what makes the decision so much more complicated.
0:29:34So the big trade-off with the full-size iPad
0:29:37was heaviness and thickness.
0:29:41And it's radically thinner and smaller.
0:29:44I mean, the width decrease of decreasing the bevel,
0:29:48I don't know how big a deal that is.
0:29:50It seems nice, at least in the hands-on area
0:29:52last week at Apple.
0:29:53It did seem nice, seem nicer.
0:29:56But the weight difference is just dramatic.
0:29:58It is just amazing.
0:30:00I was there in the hands-on room with MG Siegler.
0:30:04And he had his iPad 4 with him and took it out of his bag.
0:30:08And we could just do a side-by-side.
0:30:10and it really just felt, it didn't feel like .4 pounds,
0:30:14it felt like half, it felt like it was half the weight,
0:30:16felt like we could put two of those new iPads together
0:30:19and be the same weight as last year's.
0:30:21It's a huge difference, way more comfortable
0:30:24to hold in your hands.
0:30:25And therefore, a lot of the reason that,
0:30:30that's a lot of the reason I preferred the Mini.
0:30:32The Mini addresses all of the weaknesses it had
0:30:37that doesn't have, it has a retina display now, I should say,
0:30:40and it has the same performance.
0:30:42It's just as fast, it seems to have as much RAM,
0:30:46but it's a little bit more expensive
0:30:48at the same storage point.
0:30:51So you lose some of that price advantage
0:30:54of choosing a Mini over an iPad.
0:30:56So it's a lot tougher.
0:30:59- It's no longer kind of, oh, I lost it.
0:31:02Oh, well, cheap, you know?
0:31:04And I priced out the one I wanted,
0:31:06it was like, oh, 630 bucks or whatever.
0:31:10It even got a little heavier.
0:31:13Nowhere near, nowhere near the difference that when the iPad 2 went to the 3 and they
0:31:18had to make it a lot heavier to power the retina screen.
0:31:22It's negligibly heavier.
0:31:24I think in grams it went from a little like 308 to 331.
0:31:29So I don't know, it's like 7 or 8% heavier.
0:31:33And you know, a lot of people ask me, I asked on Twitter when I was there that day, you
0:31:36you know, what questions you have.
0:31:38A lot of people said, "Hey, does this small weight increase
0:31:41"in the Mini feel, make it feel different?"
0:31:43I didn't have one to do side by side with the old one,
0:31:46but it's just from my recollection as a daily iPad Mini user
0:31:51it felt the same, more or less.
0:31:53I don't think that that--
0:31:55- I think it's like less than 10% difference.
0:31:57- Yeah.
0:31:59But, bottom line, for someone like me who,
0:32:02when they travel, is already gonna take up,
0:32:05still gonna take a MacBook and so you've already got like a two to three pound
0:32:10device in the bag and you're just hey I just don't you know I don't want to weigh
0:32:14it down with something bigger well now you're still talking about a point seven
0:32:18pound mini or a 1.0 pound iPad air you're really only talking about three
0:32:27tenths of a pound extra so it's not you know somebody who decides to carry their
0:32:33where air in addition to a MacBook isn't really taking on that much more weight as opposed
0:32:41to last year where the Mini was more than half the weight or less than half the weight
0:32:48of the full-size iPad. It's a big difference and I really do think it complicates it. I
0:32:55think I'm still going to choose the Mini though.
0:32:57- Yeah, .3 pounds is 1/10 of the weight
0:33:02of a MacBook Air 13 inch.
0:33:06So, see, but the fact that it's that little,
0:33:10we're getting in the weeds.
0:33:11It really is becoming harder to kind of just
0:33:15make this decision based on,
0:33:17they've become so close together,
0:33:22which kind of leads you to wonder
0:33:26where's the high end of that size gonna be
0:33:30in a year or two?
0:33:31Do they go bigger with that?
0:33:32I don't know.
0:33:33- I guess, and I wrote about this in my piece this week,
0:33:37but I think the best way to think about it
0:33:38is that last year, choosing between the iPad mini
0:33:42and the iPad Air was sort of like choosing
0:33:44between a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro,
0:33:47where there was a lot of trade-offs,
0:33:48performance trade-offs, screen resolution trade-offs,
0:33:51bigger price differential.
0:33:53And this year, to me, it's more like choosing
0:33:55between the 11-inch Air and the 13-inch Air,
0:33:57where it's more or less the same
0:33:59and you just kinda have to choose
0:34:00between which size you like better.
0:34:03And it's a lot more subtle of a difference to make.
0:34:08- Yeah, and I wonder if you're mostly reading
0:34:15the minis better if you do any sort of creative stuff
0:34:20that the bigger one--
0:34:21- Yeah, I think people who type on their iPad,
0:34:25And I know there's a lot of people who do.
0:34:28It's gotta be better on the big one.
0:34:30Although I just saw a friend on Twitter said,
0:34:32you know, I type better on the Mini.
0:34:33And I think it's because he's a thumb typer
0:34:36rather than a touch typer.
0:34:38Or maybe he has very tiny hands, I don't know.
0:34:39But if you're putting your iPad out in landscape
0:34:44and doing typing on the on-screen keyboard,
0:34:48the big one is effectively a full-size keyboard
0:34:50and the Mini is not.
0:34:53I can't touch type on it.
0:34:54I can only thumb type on it.
0:34:55But I don't do much right.
0:34:56That's why I carry a MacBook Air when I travel around,
0:35:00you know, when I'm out of the house and I travel somewhere.
0:35:03That's why I take a MacBook Air with me.
0:35:05- Same here, and beyond the fact that I do a lot of,
0:35:10not just typing, but design work
0:35:12that you just can't do on an iPad yet.
0:35:14- Right.
0:35:15- Were you surprised at all that they didn't,
0:35:18you know, and I made some stupid joke about this on Twitter
0:35:20before the event, but were you surprised
0:35:23they didn't do some sort of keyboard cover now that they're so gung-ho about
0:35:28accessories and increasing margins that way? No, I guess I'm not surprised.
0:35:34Although I thought, and I'm not one, I've often said repeatedly on this show that
0:35:39I don't really read much into the design or slogan of the event invitations,
0:35:44but the fact that this one said we have a lot to, we still have a lot to cover
0:35:49made me think, oh, maybe they've got something
0:35:52specifically cover related to talk about.
0:35:55But the covers are, you know, there's really--
0:35:58- And you see The Verge like went back
0:35:59through all the old invites and kind of said,
0:36:03okay, these ones kind of have subtle hints
0:36:05at the stuff and these ones don't.
0:36:08Anyway.
0:36:09- No, I didn't see that.
0:36:10- Oh yeah, it was pretty good.
0:36:11They had a bunch of them, so.
0:36:13- This one clearly had nothing to do with the no hint.
0:36:17It really just meant we have a lot of little things to cover.
0:36:21- Yeah, basically.
0:36:22I would be, I would probably buy,
0:36:26I haven't actually tried that Surface keyboard cover,
0:36:30but I also don't think that really says much
0:36:32about what Apple could do if they put their mind to it, so.
0:36:36- Yeah, I don't know.
0:36:38I do think it's intriguing.
0:36:41I also think, though, and I know for me personally,
0:36:45And this just is largely about the places where I use my MacBook Air while I'm traveling.
0:36:53Yeah, sometimes I am at a hotel desk and a tablet on a hardware keyboard cover would
0:37:01do just as well.
0:37:02But when I'm on an airplane, I don't put my air on the tray usually.
0:37:08I usually literally use it as a laptop.
0:37:10I have it on my lap.
0:37:11And that's, you know, everybody always says even with the Surface, you can't really type
0:37:15on your lap.
0:37:18And I use it to take notes at conferences sometimes, you know, like at WWDC or something
0:37:21like that.
0:37:22And again, there, you have no tray.
0:37:24You have to use it on your lap.
0:37:25And so, you know, a tablet hooked up to a keyboard wouldn't work for me.
0:37:29Yeah.
0:37:30What I kind of want, and maybe with the low-power Bluetooth, this will become more possible,
0:37:37would be to use the iPhone as the iPad keyboard.
0:37:41I'm actually still better at typing, although I've gotten worse at typing on my iPhone.
0:37:46But autocorrect seems to have gotten worse too, but I don't know about that.
0:37:51But it seems to be going further back in your typing and changing things to be wrong words.
0:37:57But –
0:37:58Yeah, I've seen that too.
0:37:59Just the other day, I was posting from the airplane and I was using my iPad and I wrote
0:38:08I wanted to say it's just icing on the cake.
0:38:11And it changed it to justifying the cake.
0:38:16But it only made the change after I must have typed icing.
0:38:22And I know there was a space in there.
0:38:23And I just, I obviously didn't notice the change happened.
0:38:27But it's like I wasn't even thinking about it
0:38:29because it was, you know, like two words later.
0:38:33It was annoying.
0:38:36'Cause it was also one of those things
0:38:37because I was on the plane,
0:38:39I didn't catch it for a couple minutes.
0:38:41- Yeah, I don't know what's up with that.
0:38:44Hopefully they'll fix that.
0:38:45But anyway, I would love to use my iPhone
0:38:47as an iPad keyboard.
0:38:50I don't know what, maybe I should just,
0:38:52and I do, like I find myself wanting to respond
0:38:55to an email on my iPad and then go,
0:38:57oh, I'll just do this on my phone
0:38:59because it's easier to type there.
0:39:01- I do think there's something to the fact,
0:39:04I mean, it's pretty clear.
0:39:05I mean, at Apple is, they don't sell a slew of first party peripherals or add-ons to their
0:39:15devices, but they're obviously keenly interested in them.
0:39:19I mean, they first made a foray into these cases with the bumpers for the iPhone 4, which
0:39:26didn't seem to take off.
0:39:29It doesn't seem like the Apple branded bumpers
0:39:32were particularly popular with the iPhone 4 and 4S.
0:39:36I never saw that many of them in the wild.
0:39:39And I think--
0:39:40- Well, they also gave away a bunch of free ones.
0:39:42- Yeah, and even giving away the free ones,
0:39:44I didn't see that many.
0:39:45- No, I got one and put it on and then said,
0:39:47"Eh, nevermind."
0:39:48- My thought with that, and it's not even,
0:39:51I don't even think it's particularly insightful
0:39:53because I think that they,
0:39:55I think they spelled it out when they introduced them
0:39:57event which was, "Okay, we've noticed that a lot of you are using cases with your iPhone,
0:40:02but we've designed the whole iPhone including the back to be beautiful."
0:40:07So here, all right, you want something that protects the thing a little bit and raises
0:40:12over the glass so you can set it down and not put the glass on a surface. Use this instead
0:40:18and at least you can still – most of the iPhone is still exposed. I think people's
0:40:23reaction to that was no no no I want to cover up everything you know I you know
0:40:28and so the new cases this year's cases for the for the 5s and the 5c you know
0:40:38are more like the cases that everybody's been selling for for years and years
0:40:42where it wraps the whole device and they did that for the iPad as well where they
0:40:47have well I guess if you look at the iPhone and iPad they both were launched
0:40:52with more types of accessories than they have today. Like the iPhone, remember the Bluetooth
0:41:00earpiece that Apple made? And then with the iPad, they had that weird keyboard type thing.
0:41:07And I think through usage, they said, "Eh, these things aren't really worth pursuing.
0:41:11But oh, there is this market for specific cases that we didn't have at launch. Let's
0:41:17do those."
0:41:18You know what's funny is that weird keyboard dock that launched with the original 2010
0:41:26iPad, which I guess in hindsight was sort of a sign of their not quite knowing what
0:41:30everybody was going to want to do with iPads yet.
0:41:36It was almost explicit in the presentation.
0:41:38Look, we know this is great for some things.
0:41:41We don't know what everything's going to be.
0:41:43But that still made me think going into this week with that we have lots to cover that
0:41:48that maybe they would do a keyboard cover.
0:41:50'Cause they've had, it wouldn't be out of the blue,
0:41:51it wouldn't be unprecedented that they would do
0:41:53an iPad-specific keyboard.
0:41:56- And Logitech seems to be kinda capturing
0:42:00a nice chunk of some market.
0:42:02I don't know how big it is, I don't know how many people
0:42:04are actually buying those things.
0:42:06And Amazon even has a knockoff of them,
0:42:08which you kinda wanna buy just to see how junky it is.
0:42:12- Well, I'll tell you where I do see,
0:42:17I fly enough that I, you know, I see,
0:42:22I'm in an airport, it just feels like I'm in airports
0:42:23a lot nowadays, and I do see an awful lot of people
0:42:27typing, you know, with some kind of hardware keyboard
0:42:32on their iPads, a lot.
0:42:33- Some of them are hilarious.
0:42:35They have like eight different, they have to fold them out
0:42:38like six different ways.
0:42:39It's like, why don't you just get one of those
0:42:43big ass Dell Inspirons and do that, you know?
0:42:46I don't know, it's almost negates the fact
0:42:49that the iPad is so small and portable.
0:42:51- But yeah, a little bit.
0:42:53But on the other hand, I still do see,
0:42:56and we were talking about this at the event,
0:42:58the Hands-On event, and I tried to write about it
0:43:01this week too, but that if you wanna be somebody
0:43:04who only travels with one device, when you're traveling,
0:43:07just one computer in your bag,
0:43:12new iPad Air plus a third-party keyboard is still gonna be like half the weight
0:43:19of even an 11-inch MacBook Air because an 11-inch MacBook Air is like 2.4
0:43:25pounds so with a one pound iPad I mean how much those keyboards weigh they
0:43:32can't weigh more than you know three four five I mean at most half a pound
0:43:36right so you're still coming in at like half the weight of an 11-inch Air which
0:43:41It's a lot, you know, which is, you know,
0:43:42one of the smallest laptops out there.
0:43:44- I'm looking it up.
0:43:48Yeah, I agree, and almost kind of makes you wonder
0:43:51why they haven't used some of this technology
0:43:55to make the MacBook Air thinner if,
0:43:58it could just be battery, I don't know.
0:44:01- Yeah, I don't know.
0:44:02Well, I think then you get into the whole realm of,
0:44:05you know, the desktop class nature of the A7,
0:44:09you know does this presage a future MacBook Air that's running on a you know
0:44:15A8 or A9 and you know announce it you know might be the sort of thing that
0:44:21they'd have like like the Intel switch that they would have to announce two or
0:44:27three months ahead of time at WWDC to get developers to re- Mac developers to
0:44:31recompile apps as fat binaries with ARM and Intel versions of the Mac and then
0:44:39and start selling the thing in September
0:44:41or something like that.
0:44:42But I don't know, I don't think that's likely,
0:44:44but I think it is definitely possible in terms,
0:44:47why would they do that, I think, to get an air
0:44:51that weighs more like one point something pounds
0:44:54than two point something pounds.
0:44:56- Totally, and that'd be crazy.
0:44:59All right, so I'm looking at the ultra-thin keyboard cover
0:45:01for iPad, which seems to be the thin one, the light one,
0:45:05and that's still--
0:45:06- Is that the Logitech, and that's Logitech?
0:45:07- Correct, yeah.
0:45:08which is the...
0:45:09It's a hundred bucks.
0:45:11They have like three or four different kinds.
0:45:14One of them looks just like the Apple Bluetooth keyboard.
0:45:18One of them is the one that I see a lot with eight different flaps where people have to...
0:45:22It's like a trapper keeper.
0:45:24But this is the very simple one that's a cover, the ultra-thin keyboard cover for iPad, not
0:45:30for Mini.
0:45:31And it comes in four colors and weighs 0.8 pounds.
0:45:35So that's more than I would have thought.
0:45:360.78.
0:45:37All right, well then you're still talking about 1.78 pounds and you're a half pound
0:45:42under even the 11 inch air. It's not as much as I would have thought, but it's still lighter.
0:45:48It's getting there, yeah.
0:45:50Right. I mean, a half pound is a half pound.
0:45:54I wonder if it's going to come down to stock levels. I wonder if people are going to see
0:45:59that the mini is delayed three months, so they got to buy an air.
0:46:03Yeah, it'll be interesting to see I'm interesting from an operational standpoint, and I think the fact that the
0:46:09They announced they announced a ship date for the air the iPad air and it's what was it ten days after the event I think
0:46:18It's next Friday's right so that's like nine or no. That's more than ten days. It's
0:46:24No ten days ten days after the event the mini is
0:46:30quote unquote, "later in November," which I think really shows just how tight it was
0:46:38engineering and operationally to get the Mini to retina and the A7 in one year, because
0:46:47that's literally the latest that they could ship and still have any hope of meeting holiday
0:46:51demand.
0:46:52Right?
0:46:53I mean, you can't ship a holiday product in December.
0:46:57Hopefully it'll be out later in November, I'm thinking, will mean it'll be at least
0:47:02available for sale in some quantities by, what is it called, Black Friday, the day after
0:47:08Thanksgiving.
0:47:10Because if it's not, then a lot of people are just going to buy the one that is available.
0:47:14You won't even have to make a decision.
0:47:17So here's another interesting thing.
0:47:19I don't know if this is the first time I suppose I could look, but of the iPad Air, the Wi-Fi
0:47:25and cellular models will be available the same day this time.
0:47:28I didn't know that was different before.
0:47:30Well, I don't know about the last year's full-size iPad, but I remember the Mini, the cellular
0:47:36version didn't ship for two or three weeks after the Wi-Fi version was available, which
0:47:43is one of the reasons I was stuck with the Wi-Fi version, because I wanted to get it
0:47:47within the first possible day.
0:47:50So here's a question for you.
0:47:53I'll give you the question, but I'm going to do a sponsor read,
0:47:55and you can answer afterwards.
0:47:57Here's the question.
0:48:00Number one, do you buy a cellular iPad?
0:48:05You can answer that one.
0:48:07Or do you go Wi-Fi only?
0:48:09I've done both.
0:48:11What are you going to buy this year?
0:48:13Maybe we'll do a cliffhanger.
0:48:15All right, do a cliffhanger.
0:48:16All right.
0:48:18It's not a simple answer.
0:48:20All right, well then, let's hold it.
0:48:22I want to tell you about our second sponsor, and again,
0:48:25longtime sponsor of the show, Good Friends at an Event Apart.
0:48:30The "an" in their name is just as important
0:48:33as the "the" in the talk show.
0:48:36So I would never call them Event Apart.
0:48:38They're an event apart.
0:48:40What's an event apart?
0:48:42It's the design conference for people who make websites.
0:48:46It's the one web design and front end development conference
0:48:50that you don't want to miss.
0:48:52Because year after year, an event apart
0:48:55is the place where groundbreaking ideas appear
0:48:59in public first.
0:49:01An event apart stage is where Ethan Marcotte introduced
0:49:05responsive web design.
0:49:07You can't shake a stick today and not
0:49:08talk about responsive web design, right?
0:49:10That's the idea that you create one design, you use CSS,
0:49:13you can use JavaScript, you can use other things,
0:49:15you produce one website, one set of URLs,
0:49:20none of this nonsense where you redirect
0:49:21to mobile.domainname.com or something like that,
0:49:25one set of domain names where the layout is flexible
0:49:28and adjusts to any and every client that hits it,
0:49:32whether it's a phone, whether it's a tablet,
0:49:34or whether it's a Mac Pro with a 30-inch cinema display.
0:49:39That's where responsive web design became public.
0:49:43where Christina Halvorson sounded the cry for content strategy, right? I mean
0:49:48content strategy is like it's like its own industry now. People did years ago
0:49:52before she introduced it and started singing the praises of it and preaching
0:49:58it at an event apart nobody had even heard of content strategy. It's a great
0:50:03conference. I've been to it several times. It's also a conference that isn't just
0:50:08once a year in one location. It's sort of a traveling roadshow. So where do you
0:50:13What do you want to do if you want to find out when it's coming near you? What's the schedule? What are the tickets?
0:50:17What are the cities are coming to here's what you do you go to the website and event apart.com?
0:50:24Slash talk show that way they'll know you're coming from here. You'll find out everything you need to know
0:50:30Can't recommend it highly enough great great conference
0:50:34Just first class in terms of facilities. Even the food is better than than any other conference. I've been to
0:50:43Really great, my thanks to an event apart.
0:50:46All right, cellular or Wi-Fi iPad.
0:50:51I've only ever bought cellular models
0:50:55'cause I do use that a lot.
0:50:56- And I've bought now twice the wrong kind
0:51:02and have had to return it, or wanted to.
0:51:05So the first iPad I ever bought was cellular
0:51:08and that was the AT&T 3G original iPad.
0:51:12And I was very excited about streaming the Cubs games
0:51:17at the gym over 3G, 'cause back then you had unlimited data,
0:51:23so I could pull down as many, as much as I wanted to.
0:51:28I could stream video without being concerned about that.
0:51:31And it didn't work because the network sucked so bad
0:51:35that the video just didn't stream where I was.
0:51:38So after that point, I was like, all right,
0:51:41I'm not getting another 3G iPad, this is stupid.
0:51:46And then iOS whatever, five or something,
0:51:50turned on tethering, so even then I was even more
0:51:54against the idea of having a cellular iPad.
0:51:57And then I bought an iPad with Retina, iPad 3 with WiFi,
0:52:02and that was the first LTE,
0:52:08was that the first LTE Apple product, period?
0:52:10- I think so.
0:52:11- Yeah. - Yeah.
0:52:13- And I borrowed someone's LTE thing
0:52:16and went, holy crap, I need this.
0:52:19So I returned my iPad and got an LTE one.
0:52:22And then I found that iPad to be unusably heavy
0:52:29so I never used that.
0:52:31So then when the Mini came out, I'm like,
0:52:32all right, I'm just getting the first thing that comes out,
0:52:34getting the WiFi one.
0:52:36And then a month after that, I realized that I'm an idiot
0:52:39and should only buy cellular from now on.
0:52:41So that's the answer is that I'm getting a Verizon,
0:52:45but I said, now I'm tempted this crazy guy
0:52:48who's now the CEO of T-Mobile is doing things like
0:52:51setting his hair on fire and giving everyone
0:52:53200 megs of free data a month.
0:52:56And then I wonder, should I get a T-Mobile iPad
0:53:00and have 200 megs of free data?
0:53:03Probably not, I'm on the Verizon family plan.
0:53:05So for 10 bucks a month, I can just tap into the pool of--
0:53:09plan right right so anyway that was a unnecessarily long way of saying
0:53:13Verizon 32 gigs space gray mini I bet a lot of people have gone through the
0:53:19similar jumps though like that it was a good explanation I you know what here's
0:53:26a big one for me is I've always bought the highest capacity one but I think I
0:53:31don't think anymore because now that they've gone to 128 I don't I've never
0:53:36filled the 64 so I feel like I don't need that and I feel like I should
0:53:41double-check my storage on the 64 because I don't know that I really need
0:53:48even 64 because one of the things I wanted 64 was to load up a bunch of
0:53:52music and I feel like that's you know I feel like that's you got to get with the
0:53:58times and iTunes radio is really the way to go if you want to listen to music and
0:54:02I know if you're on a plane you know your iTunes radio isn't gonna work for
0:54:05But I don't really listen to music if I'm gonna listen to music on my plan anyway
0:54:09I want it from my phone not from the iPad right. I just want the headphones going into my pocket not to something
0:54:14I'm carrying around
0:54:16So exactly I don't know that I need even 64. I'm gonna double check and I don't have big games
0:54:21I'm not an infinity blade player, so I don't have
0:54:24Big games. I'm you know whereas I still I still buy the biggest iPhone
0:54:28Storage wise that I can buy and also I mean even if just for you know photos and videos that I shoot
0:54:35Also, I don't shoot photos and videos with my iPads,
0:54:38so I don't need storage for that.
0:54:40But I do go cellular.
0:54:42- Yeah, for me that's the better use of that 100 bucks
0:54:45or whatever because the way I think about it is
0:54:48how much video will I reasonably watch
0:54:51on this trip that I'm going on?
0:54:52That's probably the most amount of storage I'd ever need.
0:54:54And it turns out the 16 is too small, even at SD.
0:54:59I find myself having to delete stuff and redownload it
0:55:02and that's very annoying.
0:55:03- I'm a little surprised, especially since I went
0:55:05I'm a little surprised the 16 stayed around,
0:55:08although I think it's about hitting certain price points
0:55:11and stuff like that, but it's, you know.
0:55:14- Yeah.
0:55:16- It's a vague disappointment to me
0:55:17that the 399 for Mini and 499 for iPad Air isn't 32 gig.
0:55:22- Yeah, you'd think that at some point
0:55:27they would kind of reset the base level.
0:55:30- Right, because it is stretching it.
0:55:3116-- - Which they've done
0:55:32on the iPhone. - Yeah.
0:55:33I mean, the first iPhone started at four gigs, right?
0:55:36Or eight, I forgot, one of those two.
0:55:39- I feel like it's one of those things
0:55:40where I'll eat my hat if next year
0:55:4216 gigabyte iPads don't go away.
0:55:44I feel like that the bar will be raised
0:55:46and 32 will become a new baseline.
0:55:48- What will happen first, that or the iPod Classic?
0:55:53Retirement, I don't know.
0:55:55I do, so a lot of people are also wondering
0:55:58about the iPad 2, why it's still around
0:56:01and why it's still $400 and not something like $200.
0:56:06And you address it in your post very well.
0:56:10And I joke that I think that they should have just called it
0:56:12the iPad Square because it's still, if you are,
0:56:16and I see these almost every coffee shop now,
0:56:19one of those point of sale things,
0:56:21and a lot of them use the old dock connector
0:56:24either for power or the credit card swiper.
0:56:29Square of course uses the headphone jack
0:56:32for the credit card swiping thing,
0:56:34but if you get the new Square register,
0:56:37I believe it uses the old pin connector for everything.
0:56:42And that's where you don't need retina,
0:56:46you don't need performance, you just need something.
0:56:48- You do want the big one though.
0:56:50- You need the big one.
0:56:51- Right.
0:56:52- Especially if you got messy hands or something
0:56:55and you just need a big touch target
0:56:57for those cash register apps
0:57:00and for people that sign in and all that kind of stuff.
0:57:03But they don't wanna make it too cheap
0:57:05because they don't want normal people buying it
0:57:07instead of a good iPad, right?
0:57:10- You know, that's a non-cynical way to put it.
0:57:14I think even the more cynical way might have a lot of truth
0:57:17where if there's so many people who are still buying it
0:57:20at 3.99, three, four weeks ago before this event,
0:57:25Why reduce the price if they don't seem to be under any pressure from consumers if demand isn't tapering off at $3.99
0:57:32why not keep it around and
0:57:35presumably, you know given that it's
0:57:37It's a 20 a product that debuted in April 2011
0:57:44Right. Mm-hmm, right April 2011
0:57:48uh
0:57:51At $4.99, and now they're still selling it for $3.99, presumably I would think that they're
0:57:56making insane margins off it.
0:57:59I would assume that in terms of profit margin, it's the most profitable iOS device they make.
0:58:05I mean, maybe the iPhone is the most because of the subsidies.
0:58:08It's probably the most profitable percentage-wise unsubsidized device that they make.
0:58:13Dave Asprey Yep.
0:58:15I would agree with that.
0:58:16And it's also important to consider the relative cost.
0:58:20I was asking someone about this a while ago and they said that the cost savings between
0:58:27one of those iPad point of sales and a cash register is still hundreds or even a thousand
0:58:33dollars or something like that.
0:58:35We're worrying about a hundred bucks here and there, but the reality is that they're
0:58:41still saving maybe a hundred percent or even more of the all-in cost.
0:58:46It doesn't really matter that much.
0:58:48I was talking to somebody else about Square.
0:58:51And I think in particular, you know, it ties into, you know, using the iPad as the device
0:58:57that drives the reader.
0:59:00Square does not win.
0:59:02Their rates are – their rates are competitive, but they're not the best.
0:59:13Like you can save money by going with some kind of dedicated point of sale or something.
0:59:18In terms of the hardware or the processing fees?
0:59:23Processing fees. But squares are not bad, you know. But the main win has nothing to do with
0:59:29comparing a 2.3% plus 30% 30 cents per transaction versus whatever else. It really is just about the
0:59:37the fact that they take so much of the friction
0:59:39out of setting it up in the first place
0:59:42and keeping it running, where you just sign up
0:59:45and it's like a three-step elegant sign-up process
0:59:49and you put a reader in an iPad and you're off and that's it.
0:59:53And for small business owners, like you said,
0:59:55coffee shops and stuff like that,
0:59:57their biggest concern is making the coffee
1:00:00and making customers happy.
1:00:02The last thing they wanna worry about is the register.
1:00:06It's just about, it's just getting rid of the hassle.
1:00:10It just eliminates so much hassle
1:00:12from getting it up and running.
1:00:14And maybe it's just one of those things
1:00:17where maybe financially you'd be better off
1:00:19biting the bullet and spending three days
1:00:22setting up something more complicated
1:00:24because you're gonna use it for the next five years.
1:00:27But nobody ever wants to spend those three days doing that.
1:00:29They just wanna spend an hour setting up Square
1:00:32and be done with it. - Totally.
1:00:34Yep.
1:00:35The other group I know for a fact, because just talking to people at Apple, big, big
1:00:39buyers of the iPad 2 are schools.
1:00:44And I think it's, you know, meaning K-12.
1:00:46Because I think once you're talking about college, you know, colleges don't buy the
1:00:50iPads for students.
1:00:51Students come with their own.
1:00:52We're talking about K-12 schools.
1:00:55And you would think, I would think that even last year's iPad mini, which was a lower price
1:01:01starting point at $329 would be great especially for the elementary school kids but from what
1:01:07I've been told schools want full-size iPads and they want the cheapest one they can possibly
1:01:12get and so the iPad 2 I you know I've been told it still sells really really well to
1:01:20k-12 and so thus it stays.
1:01:26if you're buying 1,000 units,
1:01:28that's 100,000 bucks you're saving.
1:01:30That's not nothing.
1:01:32- Right. - No.
1:01:33All right, I lied.
1:01:35Apparently Square Stand is available
1:01:38to support the Lightning connector.
1:01:41So you don't need the old--
1:01:43- It wasn't a, you're not nuts though.
1:01:45When it first debuted, it wasn't.
1:01:47- Right, yeah.
1:01:48- But you'd be not, I mean, honestly though,
1:01:50I mean, you know, I'm as picky as the next guy.
1:01:52But if, you know, if Dan, if you and I open a coffee shop,
1:01:56I'd make sure, I'd put an iPad 2 in the register.
1:01:59- Yeah. - Right?
1:02:00Why spend an extra 100 bucks?
1:02:04- Yeah. (laughs)
1:02:05- It really is just a touchscreen, and like you said,
1:02:07it's still cheaper than a dedicated register,
1:02:09but it doesn't even make any sense.
1:02:12- Mm-hmm, yeah, it's interesting that Apple
1:02:15has upgraded all their, the Apple Store iPad displays
1:02:19to Retina, at least the ones I've seen.
1:02:22But I guess they probably have a lot of
1:02:24of dinged up ones that they can't sell or something like that. Or, you know, returns
1:02:29or something like that. Good use of those.
1:02:33Let me take this break right here and just tell you about our third sponsor. Another
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1:06:04- So speaking of web design,
1:06:07I'm curious what you think about Apple's new
1:06:11kind of paradigm of web pages where they're doing that thing that a lot of,
1:06:15well, I see a lot of startups do it too,
1:06:18where you're almost flipping through a PowerPoint when you load the web page.
1:06:23But you go down or no, I guess some of them will go side to side.
1:06:26It's not a, yeah, you go down. It's not a smooth scroll though.
1:06:30It's almost like you're flipping through slides and it's not on every page,
1:06:34but on a lot of their, you like that?
1:06:38I kind of don't like it. Everything looks great.
1:06:40like the 5C page is very colorful, looks awesome.
1:06:45I'm not crazy about the flipping through slides.
1:06:49- Yeah, I'm looking at the Air page now.
1:06:52Yeah, and you kinda click a button.
1:06:54Yeah, no, that's exactly what it is.
1:06:55You do go down, and it is, yeah, that's a good way to put it
1:06:59that it is sort of like a keynote deck,
1:07:02and there's like little dots on the side
1:07:04that tell you which one you're on.
1:07:08I can see why they do it because it certainly makes it more skimmable, but it makes it harder
1:07:14to go deep. So I don't know, I guess I'm a little non-plus, or maybe I'm misusing non-plus
1:07:20there. Ambivalent.
1:07:23What it does is kind of lets one piece of the story own the screen, but it doesn't...
1:07:32It's not a very smooth scrolling thing.
1:07:36Yeah.
1:07:37I wonder how much of it is about what they're like
1:07:42using it on iOS devices.
1:07:46- Oh yeah, could be.
1:07:47And some of these, I mean the stuff they're doing
1:07:51with motion graphics and,
1:07:54I always love reading the technology behind some of those
1:07:56where it's like some crazy JPEG that's being
1:07:59rendered in a very weird way.
1:08:02They're making videos out of images and all kinds of stuff.
1:08:06It's kind of cool.
1:08:07Yeah, I hadn't really looked at this before.
1:08:09As I sit here flipping through the iPad Air page, it is kind of neat the way that each
1:08:13transition – the iPad Air itself is part of the animation and never leaves the screen.
1:08:21It just keeps moving around and different stuff keeps coming by.
1:08:25So it's technically impressive, but I think in terms of answering the questions that I
1:08:30have as sort of an obsessive nerd when I come to the page, it's not as good.
1:08:36I always just go straight to the tech spec page.
1:08:38That's where the stuff I want to see is usually hiding.
1:08:43They have a good page too, where it's not the same on--
1:08:49I've referred to it more times this week than probably
1:08:52any other page on the internet.
1:08:54You just go to apple.com/ipad, and it's like the top level
1:08:58all iPad page.
1:08:59And you go to compare iPads, and it's
1:09:02sort of like one of their tech spec pages,
1:09:04but it covers all of the iPads that they're still selling.
1:09:08So it compares--
1:09:09- Oh, interesting.
1:09:10- It compares the iPad 2, the iPad Air,
1:09:15the old but still available at 299 original iPad Mini
1:09:20and the new iPad Mini.
1:09:22And you can see some of the weight differences
1:09:24and size differences.
1:09:25It's a super helpful page in terms of understanding
1:09:30the differences from last year to this year.
1:09:34A couple other things from this week. I guess one of the other big, well I don't know how
1:09:44big it is, but there's a lot of, you know, iWork got updated this week and it's, you
1:09:49know, the big news is that they've achieved parity across three platforms, Mac, iOS, and
1:09:56let's call it four platforms really. Mac, iPhone, iPad, and the iCloud for the I work
1:10:04for iCloud web apps and that they all use the same document format now which
1:10:11all sounds pretty cool there was a pretty good demo I don't know how true
1:10:15to life it is you know on stage of two people editing the same document at the
1:10:19same time that that demo by the way you know that's it was kind of corny right
1:10:26- Right?
1:10:27- It was, that's what I was going,
1:10:29I wonder if Steve would have approved this demo.
1:10:32Like, Eddy Cue weird glamor photos and that kind of stuff.
1:10:36- All right, I don't know though.
1:10:39It's hard to say.
1:10:40- Maybe, yeah, I don't know.
1:10:41- 'Cause you know, Steve was obviously there
1:10:43when they had approved Phil Schiller jumping off
1:10:45a 10 foot ladder while holding an iBook, so.
1:10:48- True.
1:10:49That's true, yeah, maybe he would have loved it,
1:10:50I don't know.
1:10:53But the fallout of this is that the way they've achieved document and feature parity across
1:11:01these platforms was not by raising the web app and iOS app document and feature abilities
1:11:10to match those of the Mac, but rather by using, effectively, I think, the iOS engines of these
1:11:18apps as the baseline for all of them, including the Mac, which means that on the Mac, your
1:11:24users of all three apps are losing a lot of features. Whether everybody used them or not,
1:11:29you know, we can argue about, but obviously some people used everything. And so pages
1:11:33and numbers users, it seems like pages users in particular, are up in arms if they were,
1:11:38you know, reliant on a lot of the advanced layout and typography features that used to
1:11:41be available in pages.
1:11:44I've never really used pages, but I use numbers every day as...
1:11:50All the charts I've ever done for SplatF are in numbers.
1:11:55So when I started reading tweets, people saying, "Oh my God, they butchered all these apps."
1:12:00I freaked out because I'd already updated them.
1:12:03And I popped open probably my most complex spreadsheet and charts thing,
1:12:09and it seems like I'm going to be okay.
1:12:11like some of the features I used like custom colors
1:12:16and that sort of thing were hidden a little,
1:12:20but it looks like everything that I used in Numbers
1:12:24is still there, maybe a little harder to find.
1:12:27I haven't gotten too far into the weeds yet,
1:12:29but I'd love to hear what Horace has,
1:12:32Horace, that you has to say,
1:12:33'cause he's also a Numbers guy,
1:12:36and he does stuff that I don't even know how to do
1:12:39in numbers.
1:12:40So I'd love to hear how he looks at that because it really is, people, I get an email, by far
1:12:46the most popular, most common email I get is, "Hey man, how do you make your charts?"
1:12:51And people are maybe expecting a complicated answer and just say, "No, it's numbers.
1:12:55It's shockingly powerful and very simple and it makes really good looking charts."
1:13:00And it seems like the stuff that I use it for is still possible and in fact one of the
1:13:06bugs that was driving me nuts has been fixed. A lot of people hate pie charts. I kind of
1:13:12hate pie charts too, but they had a weird thing where you could not take out the drop
1:13:16shadow in a pie chart. On text, it was permanently... You could maybe go into the... I don't even
1:13:26know how you would do it, but now you can finally get rid of the drop shadow in pie
1:13:31pie charts, so that makes me happy.
1:13:32But I should probably just not use pie charts.
1:13:35But so far, so good for numbers.
1:13:38I don't know about pages.
1:13:40I sympathize with the users whose pet feature--
1:13:43no, I don't want to--
1:13:45it seems almost like I'm minimizing it.
1:13:50Features that they relied upon, if they're gone,
1:13:53I sympathize.
1:13:56I've been there sometimes in the past with various apps
1:13:58you know, a major update, you know, takes something away or changes something that you've relied upon.
1:14:03But I do wonder how many times, how many times does it have to happen where Apple has a major
1:14:11update to something and takes out a lot. And, you know, before people get it in their heads that
1:14:19before you ever rely on anything from Apple, assume that in the future it might get reduced
1:14:26in functionality to be increased in simplicity. Right? If they did it to Final Cut Pro, which
1:14:32was a true pro app, you know, let alone like they did the same thing with iMovie back in
1:14:382008, you know, it's happened numerous times over the years. And every time people act
1:14:45like it came out of the blue and then people are surprised. I mean, I can see being disappointed
1:14:51and I can see, you know, filing, you know, requests with Apple. These are the features
1:14:55I really hope you bring back first.
1:14:58I mean, that's utterly reasonable,
1:14:59but I think to be surprised by it is a little naive.
1:15:02- Yeah, and that, although in the case of Final Cut Pro,
1:15:06that was a new app, and the old app, you know,
1:15:09still lives on your computer.
1:15:11You would have to manually install.
1:15:12- Well, don't they still have, some people,
1:15:14I've been so busy working on my write-up
1:15:16of this week's event that I still haven't updated my Mac
1:15:21to the iWork apps, but somebody told me
1:15:23that they keep the old ones around.
1:15:24I mean like they're in like a folder or something. Oh cool. I didn't know I didn't know that
1:15:28I mean so you know if you're listening into the show and you've been worried about upgrading
1:15:34double-check before you just go and hit update and software update but
1:15:37Or maybe you know make your own zip archives of the old ones just in case but I've been told that they keep them around
1:15:44Okay, I still have them on my iMac so I can do that if I need to but you know, okay
1:15:49That's good to know. Yeah, and I mean to answer your your broader question, I guess
1:15:54it's hard to tell people don't become dependent
1:15:57on Apple's productivity tools
1:16:00because that's the whole point they exist, right,
1:16:02is so that you would depend on them.
1:16:04So I don't know, it's tricky.
1:16:08- Right, and I think people who are accusing Apple
1:16:11of not being aware, like AppleScript,
1:16:14and there's one that I use AppleScript way more,
1:16:17certainly more than 99.99% of Mac users.
1:16:20I mean, so I definitely understand the pain.
1:16:22I don't happen to have any scripts that drive the iWork apps,
1:16:26but I could certainly imagine it.
1:16:30And I sympathize with that.
1:16:31But I also see exactly how that did not
1:16:33rise to the level of feature that Apple
1:16:37got into these initial events, initial versions of them.
1:16:41And I think that the thing not to think about--
1:16:44or the thing that's wrong is to think that the managers
1:16:49And yet even the engineers on the iWork team are somehow like unaware that anybody was
1:16:55using AppleScript or that there would be anybody who'd be disappointed by taking out.
1:16:59I mean, they know it better than anybody, but you have to have priorities.
1:17:04That's really what it comes down to.
1:17:06And, you know, and it really matters what your highest priority, you know, your – what
1:17:10the difference between your first priority and your second priority can often have dramatic
1:17:15differences than if they were turned around.
1:17:17And it's clear that Apple's number one priority here
1:17:20was cross-platform parity for iPhone, iPad, web, and Mac.
1:17:25And all the things that people are complaining about,
1:17:28I think, are fallout from that number one priority.
1:17:32And the thing that I also think they're not
1:17:35getting enough credit for is, to my knowledge,
1:17:38there's not a single other Office suite--
1:17:41not Microsoft's, not Google's, certainly not OpenOffice--
1:17:46that can say it's feature compatible, document compatible
1:17:51on phone, tablet, web app, and desktop.
1:17:56- And you probably said this before,
1:18:00but this is arguably what defines Apple,
1:18:02is that they're willing to make that jump.
1:18:06Can you imagine Microsoft stripping out
1:18:09half the features in Word
1:18:11and having the stones to stick with it?
1:18:15- Right, it would be impossible,
1:18:16because they've spent so long.
1:18:19I mean, I would venture to say the entire life of Microsoft
1:18:23or certainly the entire life that almost 99.9% people
1:18:27even heard of Microsoft with functionality,
1:18:31features being their highest priority,
1:18:34the most features, having the most features,
1:18:37having the most backwards compatible features,
1:18:40where each iterative version going forward
1:18:44carries over all of the functionality
1:18:46of the previous versions, additional complexity be damned.
1:18:50I mean, that's been their priority.
1:18:53And it would be almost--
1:18:54- Whereas I could see Apple saying,
1:18:56okay, how are the next 500 million iWork users
1:18:59gonna do this?
1:19:00And the answer is probably across multiple iOS devices
1:19:04and maybe fewer Macs and focus on them.
1:19:09And maybe you argue at some point
1:19:11and maybe make a separate, a third tier between iWork
1:19:16and I don't know.
1:19:19Yeah, but that's even more complexity, that's dumb.
1:19:22- For years, I think 2010, 2011 in particular
1:19:27it seemed like was maybe peak fear
1:19:30that Apple was going to abandon the Mac
1:19:33or force a migration from the Mac to iOS.
1:19:36And I feel like in 2012, and especially I think 2013,
1:19:41Apple has really shown that it is committed to the Mac.
1:19:45Just everything, hardware like the Mac Pro,
1:19:47which is totally new, cutting edge,
1:19:49I think they're continued industry leading MacBooks.
1:19:54I've shown that on the hardware side
1:19:57and with now annual revisions to Mac OS X
1:20:01or I guess as it's renamed now OS X,
1:20:04they're committed to it.
1:20:06And I think it's alleviated those fears
1:20:08that they were going to abandon the Mac
1:20:10or just force everybody to use iOS.
1:20:13But I do think, I mean, nobody can deny it,
1:20:15that iOS trumps macOS.
1:20:20I mean, and iOS devices trump Macs for Apple.
1:20:23They're bigger financially and they have more users.
1:20:26And so you--
1:20:27- And they're growing, whereas the Mac has,
1:20:30almost all likelihood, peaked forever in terms of sales.
1:20:33And I wrote about this, I think, nine months ago,
1:20:36and we'll see again.
1:20:36I mean, I don't think we're gonna see Mac growth ever again.
1:20:40But it's totally fair to be disappointed as a Mac user in the new iWork apps.
1:20:45Absolutely.
1:20:46But I think it's foolish to be surprised, especially since that number one priority,
1:20:53achieving parity, is for the benefit of the iOS devices for the iPhone and iOS.
1:21:01Yeah.
1:21:04Yeah, and again, I mean, I don't know exactly what's not working for some people.
1:21:09and I certainly feel for them, but so far I haven't,
1:21:13in my selfish point of view, everything still works.
1:21:17So all good there, we'll see.
1:21:21- It works for Dan Fromer.
1:21:22- Yep. (laughs)
1:21:24- Good enough, ship it.
1:21:25- Right.
1:21:27- Well, that feels like a show.
1:21:30I had a couple other things to talk about,
1:21:31but I feel like, why don't we call it a wrap?
1:21:34What do you think?
1:21:34- Okay, yeah, it works for me.
1:21:36- Can I tell you what--
1:21:37- Tell me what they were, yeah.
1:21:38- I'll tell you what was on the list,
1:21:39and we'll see if we go into overtime.
1:21:41We go into overtime maybe.
1:21:42I had two other things.
1:21:43I had the banner ads Google's been starting to tinker with
1:21:47in search results.
1:21:48And the BBM for iPhone and Android.
1:21:53- I think the ads thing is interesting
1:21:57because we could also mention the Instagram ads.
1:22:00- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:22:01They just showed them for the first time today, right?
1:22:04- Yeah.
1:22:05- All right, well let's talk about that a little.
1:22:07- Sure.
1:22:08make of the big banner ads that they're tinkering with in search results? Looks like the easiest
1:22:13way to get one is to search for flights. And it's like if you search for Southwest flights,
1:22:17you get a big Southwest ad. And I think Virgin America has one now too.
1:22:22And we're talking about Google. Google search. Yeah. I don't hate them. Now, part of this
1:22:27is, is my natural bias. I grew up in a advertising household. My dad owned a very small ad agency.
1:22:35so we would actually have to watch the commercials on TV
1:22:38and not leave the room or hit the mute button
1:22:42or something like that.
1:22:43I don't mind them.
1:22:45I think that if you're Southwest Airlines
1:22:48and people search Southwest Airlines,
1:22:50they're looking for you, so might as well own that page.
1:22:54And if it costs you a little bit
1:22:57to add a photo of your plane, I'm okay with that.
1:23:01Most of the time, I'm not gonna see that page anyway
1:23:04because Google is gonna auto-complete
1:23:06or even take you straight to the URL in Chrome.
1:23:09- I think I have a reputation
1:23:12as sort of being knee-jerk anti-Google.
1:23:14And I'll tell you, I'm with you.
1:23:15I actually don't have a problem.
1:23:18I think it's curious because they sort of,
1:23:23not even sort of, explicitly came out and said years ago
1:23:26that they would never have banner ads and search results.
1:23:29It was back in the Marissa Meyer era
1:23:32when she was in charge.
1:23:34- But they would also never make a phone either, right?
1:23:36Things change.
1:23:37In my 10 list of complaints
1:23:42against internet advertising right now,
1:23:44that's not even close to being on that 10 list.
1:23:46If anything, what drives me crazy
1:23:48are the pop-up ads I'm seeing again.
1:23:50I feel like it's 1998 and there's an X10 wireless camera ad
1:23:55popping in my face or something like that.
1:23:57That bothers me.
1:23:58Google if Google can make money from from Spirit Airlines or whatever because
1:24:03they want to put their logo on the search results page for Spirit Airlines
1:24:07that I never see anyway go for it have fun and isn't it to me there's almost a
1:24:12sort of integrity to the fact that if something you type a search query and
1:24:18hit return and results come in and if something is a sponsored result it is
1:24:25almost an integrity to making it look more like an ad rather than, you know, some of
1:24:30the games that they've played over the years. And they've always, again, you know, I think
1:24:34coming from me, you know, saying that, you know, Google search has always been a product
1:24:39that, and I know that they've played some games with favoring their own products and
1:24:43services over competitors and you can get into competitive arguments about that. But
1:24:47in general, it's, you know, it's one of the great triumphs of the modern world. I mean,
1:24:53It's the foundation upon which the entire Google empire is based and deservedly so.
1:24:59It's one of the most amazing things in the world.
1:25:01And if you could take a time traveler from any period, 25 years ago, 50 years ago, 100
1:25:08years ago, Google search is one of the things you would show them about the modern world.
1:25:13That you do this thing and you type on this keyboard and you get, you know, you can ask
1:25:17anything and get answers.
1:25:18It's amazing.
1:25:21I think that some of the things they've done in the past to show that indicate that a result
1:25:26is sponsored have been subtle enough that you could argue that that lacks integrity,
1:25:33but just putting a gentle shading, you know, a little yellow or a pink or something like
1:25:37that in a small gray, light gray type that says sponsored post or sponsored result very,
1:25:45very quietly, is almost worse than making a big graphical banner ad. Because there it
1:25:51says, you know, those things look like ads. It's like, hey, that's an ad. And it's one
1:25:55ad. And it's not gratuitous. And hopefully it is, like you said, it's what you were looking
1:26:00for. So I kind of feel like it's not worth criticism. It's an interesting direction,
1:26:06though.
1:26:07Right. And you know, and it's easy to say, aha, you're doing the thing you said you'd
1:26:11never do. But that happens all the time. Companies change. They have to. And I guess that the
1:26:18thing for me that's most important is that integrity. If it's the advertiser I'm expecting,
1:26:24go for it. Whatever. If it's a deep, deep discount, airsearch.net, buying up the Southwest
1:26:34Airlines page and tricking me into clicking and going somewhere else, maybe that's a bigger
1:26:39problem. But it seems that they're not doing that.
1:26:41At least not at this stage.
1:26:42It's also worth putting into context what no banner ads meant, let's say in 2005.
1:26:49Because 2005, eight years ago, that's a long time, and Google was still a very young company.
1:26:56I don't forget when their IPO was, but it wasn't that long before that.
1:27:02And even pre-IPO, the pre-Google world was still in recent memory.
1:27:10pre Google what did banner ads on search engines mean well it was like those
1:27:15remember the punch the monkey oh yeah I mean it was tree loot right it was
1:27:19garbage all that stuff it was real garbage and whereas you know this is not
1:27:25I don't I don't feel like this is a devaluation of Google search I do think
1:27:32it's an interesting angle to wonder what's driving them to do this though is
1:27:36Is it just a pursuit of more profit?
1:27:39Or is it the fact that desktop search is either stagnant
1:27:44or in decline and they need to get more out of each search
1:27:49to maintain the levels that they've had before?
1:27:53That's an interesting question to me is what does this mean?
1:27:57What's driving them to do this?
1:27:59- Yes, and is it also the need to make more money
1:28:02off of desktop users because mobile users
1:28:06aren't making as much money.
1:28:07- Per search.
1:28:08But yet more and more searches are going mobile.
1:28:13And I can't help--
1:28:13- And going through tools like Siri,
1:28:16which don't even kind of start from the Google homepage.
1:28:20Maybe not Siri because who uses Siri?
1:28:24But stuff like that where search is a feature in an app
1:28:28and not a destination necessarily.
1:28:31- Right.
1:28:32- And I think it dovetails, interestingly,
1:28:36with the new Instagram ads,
1:28:38which they just showed off this week,
1:28:41and I believe TechCrunch had kind of a gallery of them.
1:28:44And again, I don't hate them.
1:28:47I mean, I follow a bunch of companies already on Instagram.
1:28:50I think they're some of the best people I follow.
1:28:53To me, a nice photo of camping or something
1:28:59from an outdoor gear brand is actually often nicer
1:29:02to look at than someone's kid.
1:29:04So I follow a bunch of brands already,
1:29:07and if they, as long as the ads kind of follow
1:29:11the theory of Instagram, which is that it's people
1:29:16shooting pictures with their phones
1:29:17and not stupid stock photos and pre-produced junkie ads,
1:29:22then I think that's great.
1:29:24I'm very happy for the service that I spend
1:29:28a lot of time using to make money somehow.
1:29:31And if they can get brands like there was a GE one
1:29:34that had a cool picture of an airplane engine.
1:29:36Like if they can get GE posting that and get paid for that,
1:29:40that sounds great as long as it's not some garbage,
1:29:43almost these are like better than a lot of TV ads,
1:29:49which is still where all the money is.
1:29:50But you watch TV ads and you're like,
1:29:53these are insultingly stupid.
1:29:55But if Instagram can get money for an elegant ad,
1:29:58if there's a fashion show and some guy
1:30:02who works for that company has their iPhone
1:30:04and they're shooting photos and they want me to see it
1:30:07and they wanna pay Instagram to promote that into my feed
1:30:10and it looks good, yeah, that sounds okay.
1:30:13- Even, it's very rare that you're watching TV
1:30:15and the commercial is better than what it is,
1:30:17the show that you're watching.
1:30:19Sometimes you see a great commercial and it is.
1:30:21It elevates, you know, the art.
1:30:23It's, you know, a little 30 second dose of cinema
1:30:26and it's, you actually enjoy it, but it's rare.
1:30:30Whereas, you know, I feel like you said, you know,
1:30:32these Instagram ads seem like they're actual instances
1:30:36of what it is that Instagram is, a cool photo.
1:30:40My only concern with them, my one and only concern
1:30:42is that the examples I've seen so far,
1:30:44it seems like they allow way too much text under the image.
1:30:49I feel like you should, the rules should be tightened up
1:30:51and they should really just be a very tight amount of text
1:30:55and you know, some kind, give them a URL,
1:30:57repeat, you can learn more.
1:30:59- Which you can't do right now
1:31:01and that's an interesting thing.
1:31:01I wonder if they will allow advertisers
1:31:04to be the first ones to put clickable URLs in their texts
1:31:07'cause right now there's no way,
1:31:09like if you look at some brands
1:31:11like do contests on Instagram and they're like,
1:31:13go to our profile and click our profile URL to do that
1:31:16and that's awkward, you know,
1:31:18As a person who has a company who I would possibly
1:31:23buy Instagram ads someday,
1:31:25I'd much rather be able to put a URL in.
1:31:27- I understand why they don't allow clickable URLs,
1:31:29'cause it would allow people to do spam,
1:31:32or some, you know, and people posting.
1:31:34But I could see them doing it,
1:31:37it would be reasonable for me,
1:31:38I would see it as reasonable if only advertisers
1:31:40got to put clickable, tappable URLs, I should say,
1:31:43in their thing. - Yeah.
1:31:44- But then to reduce the text,
1:31:46because the cool pictures fit right into your Instagram feed.
1:31:51The big chunks of text don't.
1:31:54It's the text that sticks out as you scroll
1:31:57rather than the images.
1:31:59- Yeah, NPR has been doing this thing
1:32:01where they're doing some contest or something
1:32:03and they have like four paragraphs of text
1:32:06and I think I unfollowed them for it.
1:32:09- The New Yorker has a cool Instagram feed
1:32:12and they hire different photographers
1:32:15take over it for like a week at a time and you know sometimes they'll go to an
1:32:18event or they're you know they're working alongside a reporter doing a
1:32:22story somewhere and they I don't know why but that and it just seems so
1:32:28completely un-New York-ery but they often put like 20 or 30 hashtags and it
1:32:33just makes it look it just looks awful but they're great photographers they are
1:32:37seriously like world-class photographers and you know when they're shooting with
1:32:43with the, and they're posting with pictures taken
1:32:44from the iPhone, I'm like, you know,
1:32:47I've really gotta up my game because I cannot blame the tool
1:32:49this guy, they could do great photos,
1:32:51but the big chunks of ugly hashtags really do
1:32:55always make my finger hover over and unfollow.
1:32:58- I've never understood that.
1:33:00I think that has to come from some app
1:33:02because someone really manually going in
1:33:04and tapping in like InstaGood, InstaMorning,
1:33:08like all these just ridiculous dumb hashtags every time.
1:33:12- I don't know.
1:33:13- I think it might come from some app, but I don't know.
1:33:16I agree, and if you look at a lot of the ad samples,
1:33:19again, in that TechCrunch article,
1:33:20there are a lot of hashtags.
1:33:22- I don't get it, and I never tap hashtags,
1:33:27and I guess that's something, 'cause you can tap a hashtag,
1:33:30and it puts something tappable in the ad,
1:33:32but if there was an option in Instagram
1:33:34to just strip hashtags out, I would do it,
1:33:37'cause I never tap them,
1:33:38and it would only clean up my stream.
1:33:41I use them kind of jokingly sometimes,
1:33:43just literally spamming other people's comments.
1:33:46But what kind of bums me out is that Instagram,
1:33:51I respect their desire to keep the product
1:33:54as simple as possible.
1:33:56That's how I hope to develop my app too.
1:33:59But there are some things that are missing still
1:34:03that kind of bug me, like the inability to search
1:34:06for pictures of a location.
1:34:10Seeing the location field in someone's Instagram
1:34:14and then tapping that location,
1:34:16like a national park or a store or something,
1:34:18there's often really, really great collections
1:34:21of photos in there,
1:34:22but there's no way to kind of seek those out.
1:34:25You can't search. - Right, you have to find one.
1:34:27- You can search for usernames, yeah.
1:34:29And like, one of my friends was in Portofino, Italy,
1:34:34once, and posted some picture from the beach,
1:34:37and if you tap that location,
1:34:39It's all like Russians on yachts in bikinis.
1:34:43It's really funny.
1:34:44It's like, but there's no way to go back to that.
1:34:46You gotta go.
1:34:47And stuff like that.
1:34:48And another one is you can't log in on multiple accounts,
1:34:53which for most people is not a problem.
1:34:57And I totally respect the designing a product
1:34:59around most of your users.
1:35:01But especially as they're trying to cater to brands,
1:35:04I have a friend who runs three restaurants and a magazine,
1:35:08and she still has to manually log in and log out
1:35:10and type in the password every time she wants to post
1:35:13something from one of those different accounts.
1:35:15- Sounds like somebody needs a day phone and a night phone.
1:35:19- Right?
1:35:21So I don't know.
1:35:23But I love the simplicity of Instagram.
1:35:27I maybe don't use it as much as I used to for some stuff.
1:35:31It really bugs me that they don't post the pictures
1:35:35to the Twitter stream anymore,
1:35:36especially as Twitter starts testing things
1:35:39like putting the pictures in line.
1:35:41I still use the official Twitter app
1:35:45and I was in a UI test group a few weeks ago
1:35:48where every picture showed up in line in my stream
1:35:51and I really liked it.
1:35:53And I think that's kind of what they're gonna switch to
1:35:55at some point.
1:35:55But it does bum me out that Instagram's
1:35:58not in the stream anymore.
1:36:00But maybe now with ads they'll do it again, I don't know.
1:36:06I think bottom line is that this concept for ads in Instagram, to me, is if not identical,
1:36:16it is nearly so to what Instagram would have done eventually if they had remained wholly
1:36:23independent.
1:36:24You know, because if they had remained independent, eventually they had to have some kind of revenue.
1:36:29I think this would have been it.
1:36:30So I don't think it is, it to me allays some of the fears that I've had at least and a
1:36:39lot of others from when Facebook bought them that they were going to get a lot more Facebooky
1:36:43and go that route for revenue.
1:36:47And to me this is, I wouldn't be surprised if this has been in the plans since before
1:36:53they were acquired.
1:36:54I mean it doesn't seem, it really doesn't seem, even to date it really doesn't seem
1:36:58like Instagram has changed in any way, even now with this proposed advertising, in a Facebookian
1:37:06fashion, to put it that way.
1:37:09They almost feel more still like they belong with Twitter more than with Facebook.
1:37:14But maybe that's good for Facebook.
1:37:15Yeah, and I think it's exactly why they bought them.
1:37:18And I think the bottom line of why did they buy Instagram was that Zuckerberg regretted
1:37:25And there were those, you know, a couple of stories in the last couple of weeks, like
1:37:28Nick Bilton's excerpt from his book and the great New Yorker profile of Jack Dorsey.
1:37:36You know, I don't even think it was a surprise though, but more details than were known before
1:37:39that, you know, that Zuckerberg did seriously consider buying Twitter years ago didn't work
1:37:45out and it only got bigger.
1:37:48And I feel like, you know, I feel like it made him all the more determined when he,
1:37:52you know, saw that Instagram was very Twitter-like to not let that pass.
1:37:59I do think so.
1:38:00Absolutely think that Instagram remains a lot more like Twitter than it is like Facebook.
1:38:06And, you know, I would say I'm still impressed with how many people are posting to it.
1:38:11Like I don't know if the people who posted a lot in the early days that I followed are
1:38:16posting as much, but every time I fire up Instagram, I don't even follow that many
1:38:21people, especially on the weekends, there's new stuff to look at. And it's still mostly
1:38:25pretty good.
1:38:26I'm always surprised by how many people I see out in the real world Instagramming.
1:38:29Oh, yeah.
1:38:30And like sporting events, you know, like, over the summer when I went to some baseball
1:38:34games and went to Disney World and stuff like that. And I, you know, it's such a distinctive
1:38:40UI, you know, and that the blue and the big camera button at the bottom or it's, you know,
1:38:45you don't have to be like a eavesdropper, you can just, you know, just eyeball somebody's
1:38:49screen. When you're taking a photo, you're holding it out in front. It's really easy
1:38:54to see. But I could see people, I still do, I see it all the time, people taking pictures
1:38:59with their phone who are clearly taking it in Instagram. It's definitely got real normal
1:39:08person traction.
1:39:11And has completely ruined all expectations from VCs for how an app should grow. But that's
1:39:18- It's a different topic.
1:39:19- That was pretty amazing.
1:39:23- Cool.
1:39:25- All right.
1:39:26Good show.
1:39:29Dan Fromer.
1:39:29Give him a URL.
1:39:31Should we send him to City Notes?
1:39:34- Send him to our brand new, very proud Twitter account,
1:39:38which is City Notes.
1:39:40We finally got it.
1:39:41- Oh, nice.
1:39:42- Yeah.
1:39:43- So just go to twitter.com/citynotes.
1:39:47Follow us there, we got some cool new stuff coming
1:39:50later this year, which we're very excited about,
1:39:53and you can kinda follow us there and get it when it's new.
1:39:57- Did you hear me typing right there
1:39:59on my loud clicky-clack keyboard?
1:40:00That's me going there, here I am right now,
1:40:02clicking, follow.
1:40:04- Boom.
1:40:05- Followed right now.
1:40:06- Yeah, it's a very low volume stream for now.
1:40:09It's never gonna be very high volume,
1:40:11but good stuff coming.
1:40:14- All right, thanks, Dan.