The Talk Show

58: iPad Square


00:00:00   Marco specifically wrote like a pretty just called it off

00:00:03   Yeah off which so I didn't get that impression

00:00:06   But when I when I read his article about it and think about it and I wonder and then I think back to Mg

00:00:13   Siegler's kind of post walking back his

00:00:16   Tweet about the Apple TV stuff. I wonder if we saw apples kind of plan B this week

00:00:22   That's an interesting theory. I hadn't thought about that

00:00:25   Marcos called off

00:00:28   And he just says

00:00:30   Something felt a bit off about this week's Apple event part of it was the lack of surprises

00:00:34   Which isn't Apple's fault all of the product updates which while nice

00:00:38   Were incremental and predictable none of the pricing was a surprise in fact the only unexpected

00:00:44   Product announcement is the zombie iPad 2 sticking around for another year

00:00:48   Shamelessly at the same price as last year, and it goes on for there, and it's a good piece. I think it's fair

00:00:52   I don't think it's

00:00:54   reactionary Nick Bilton had a piece on the bits blog for the New York Times that I think was a little bit more harsh and

00:01:01   I did link to that one

00:01:03   That see my

00:01:07   my whole thing about that is that those people weren't around in like

00:01:10   2000 when the big news was that the the g4 tower went dual processor, you know, it was like oh crazy

00:01:17   I got to get that thing. So

00:01:20   There is kind of a faction that expects and you know Steve spoiled us like something crazy to happen every year

00:01:27   And I remember, you know six years ago when I was at Forbes we would have to write the story

00:01:32   Two or three times a year Apple let us down

00:01:34   They didn't they didn't change the world today or something like that

00:01:38   so I will say go go back and read the old press release archives from

00:01:43   2000 and in 2001 and 2002 or was like, yep new

00:01:49   new mouse design or something. No, that actually would be more interesting.

00:01:54   Do you ever notice, I'm sure you have, in fact we maybe even talked about it before, but every once in a while,

00:01:59   because of the vagaries of different CMSs, but that most modern blogs and CMSs have a, the URL slug for an article

00:02:10   is based on the title or the headline, whatever you want to call it. And then sometimes after publishing,

00:02:16   people change the headline but the URL stays the same because it was whatever

00:02:22   when it first went in. I know Bloomberg often gets caught by this or Business

00:02:26   Week and they sometimes have, you know, like the URL sometimes gives away

00:02:31   something that's no longer in the article. And I thought with Biltons it's

00:02:35   kind of interesting. His headline, the one that stayed, is "Longing for the Wow at

00:02:39   Apple's Product Showcases." But the URL slug says, and I think it's a little bit

00:02:45   more apt, the repetition of Apple Keynote presentations feels boring.

00:02:52   Interesting.

00:02:53   So first of all, I do notice that I, as a writer, love and hate that feature, and every

00:03:01   CMS I design is going to have the ability to change that slug without ruining the…

00:03:07   Right.

00:03:08   …without sending a 404.

00:03:10   But I would also say that especially at some place like The Times, I don't know how much

00:03:16   control Nick has over his headlines.

00:03:18   I'm guessing that he writes the first one perhaps, but I know for a fact actually at

00:03:24   The Times that the copy desk has a role in headlines and maybe even final say.

00:03:29   So I wouldn't say that that's Nick's headline, but I do find it interesting as

00:03:35   you say.

00:03:36   It's a different point though, right?

00:03:37   Right, exactly.

00:03:38   And then it even gets to it at the bottom of his piece and it and it says, you know, it's just built in writing

00:03:44   Showmanship aside some saw Tuesday's announcement as another example of a company that is forgetting how to innovate Apple has

00:03:53   quote

00:03:56   gone from building things consumers never ever dreamed they would need

00:04:01   To falling short at giving them what they want said Moshe

00:04:05   Cohen an assistant professor of finance and economics at Columbia Business School the problem

00:04:10   He said is Apple needs more visionaries now to me. That's a big pile of horseshit

00:04:15   that lat that paragraph right there and that is one sense of you know,

00:04:20   The like you said like for years perennially going back all the way to you know, 1999-2000

00:04:27   That Apple keynotes have often

00:04:30   quote disappointed people is this you know the lack of any kind of amazing new game-changing the world will never be the same hardware

00:04:37   Event after event after event whereas the other point to me is more subtle the idea that the repetition of these

00:04:45   presentations the way that there's a formula and a pacing and regardless of

00:04:50   What's being announced or how it's being announced that it's you know it is for lack of a better word formulaic

00:04:57   And if you just put the content aside,

00:05:02   what it, you know, and we can get to that later,

00:05:04   but just that there's, you know,

00:05:06   a sameness to Apple's product introductions.

00:05:10   - Yeah, that's really interesting,

00:05:11   to the point where there's, you know,

00:05:12   there's fan fiction, right?

00:05:14   Like there's every time people write on their blogs

00:05:18   or wherever in the Verge forums,

00:05:21   like almost a script that they expect Tim Cook

00:05:24   to read off of.

00:05:26   So yeah, that's interesting.

00:05:27   I wonder if they'll switch that up.

00:05:30   You know, you see they've added some parts of it

00:05:33   like that opening video that they've now shown

00:05:37   probably hopefully for the last time.

00:05:39   It was a good video, but--

00:05:40   - Yeah, I don't think you can, I think twice

00:05:41   is stretching it.

00:05:42   - Right, yeah, and different audiences,

00:05:44   and maybe some people were at this week's thing

00:05:47   and not at WWDC or whatever, but it is true

00:05:51   that the formula has not changed.

00:05:55   in stark contrast to every other tech company,

00:05:58   which probably actually to Apple's credit,

00:06:02   puts on just the most ridiculous, insane product launches.

00:06:07   Like, I don't know if you've been to a Samsung one, but.

00:06:10   - I've never been to one, but I mean, the one last year,

00:06:12   the Galaxy S4 one, I watched online, live.

00:06:15   - Yep.

00:06:15   - I talked about it, I mean, I forget it was on the show,

00:06:17   but it was preposterous.

00:06:19   - Oh, I've been to one, I went to one in Barcelona

00:06:21   for Mobile World Congress a couple years ago,

00:06:24   And I was just so confused.

00:06:27   It was just very, very strange event.

00:06:29   So maybe to Apple's credit, don't break what's,

00:06:34   don't fix what's not broken or whatever that cliche is.

00:06:37   - Well, and maybe another factor too is that

00:06:41   for as much as, in the last 12 months

00:06:46   that Apple came under some criticism/skepticism,

00:06:52   I'm not quite sure what the right word is, about the long stretch between last year's

00:06:58   iPad introduction, which was exactly 52 weeks ago, and the fact that they didn't introduce

00:07:07   anything last winter or spring, and then WWDC really only – I mean, it was a major introduction,

00:07:14   iOS 7, but it was software only, and it was coming later in the year, that they really

00:07:19   went 11 months without a major new product.

00:07:24   It's a hardware product.

00:07:28   Which is so annoying because the software, A, matters more really for your day-to-day

00:07:33   usage, and B, it's probably, in terms of man hours, more of a challenge to make.

00:07:38   I don't know, I just made that up.

00:07:41   I bet the software takes more effort than the hardware.

00:07:46   But it's credit is the hardware for some reason.

00:07:49   - And you could even argue though that because

00:07:50   it didn't ship to consumers until September,

00:07:53   that even the software, even iOS 7 doesn't count

00:07:56   as being released until September,

00:07:58   even though it was shown in June.

00:08:00   - And iOS 6 was released in September last year.

00:08:03   - But even given that search, my point is,

00:08:05   even given that long stretch, which I don't think

00:08:08   was any kind of sign of weakness,

00:08:09   I think it was just the way things worked out

00:08:12   with the product roadmaps across the board,

00:08:16   that there just happened to be a stretch where there wasn't anything new.

00:08:20   And obviously if they were concerned about that stretch, what they could have done easily

00:08:24   was keep the iPad 4 until September or February or whatever and have a rather disappointing

00:08:38   introduction of that rather than release it just six months after the iPad 3.

00:08:43   I think their thought is we're gonna move as fast as we can.

00:08:47   And if that means that moving as fast as we can,

00:08:50   we end up with gaps in our product introduction schedule

00:08:54   because we've introduced everything

00:08:55   as soon as we feel like we really can,

00:08:57   so be it better than holding stuff back

00:09:00   just to fill out a regular schedule.

00:09:03   - Yeah, I think there's trade-offs either way,

00:09:07   but I think I would not disagree.

00:09:09   And again, what we don't know is what they had in mind

00:09:13   to perhaps announce earlier this year or even right now,

00:09:18   but didn't, and that could be any range of things

00:09:21   from this TV that people have been expecting

00:09:24   for a long time and now seems to either just not exist

00:09:27   or be very far in the future, to the wearable stuff.

00:09:31   Maybe they were working on it and said,

00:09:33   "No, this is not ready.

00:09:35   "We need more people, we need more ideas here.

00:09:38   "Maybe there's something on the component side

00:09:40   that they need better or more of or something like that.

00:09:44   So what we don't know is the unknown unknowns, I guess.

00:09:49   But I just find it hard, and we'll see.

00:09:54   Like if it's two years from now and we're doing this again

00:09:57   and they're still just showing off kind of minor upgrades

00:10:00   to existing product lines,

00:10:03   then maybe there is something to question.

00:10:05   But for now, I would say that it's still

00:10:07   a little early on that.

00:10:08   - Yeah, I agree with that.

00:10:09   And as for the repetition, I keep trying to make it and it's hard for me to articulate.

00:10:16   But even given that year-long gap in events, if you look in the broader sense, longer term,

00:10:21   you know, just 10 years, or even just, you know, 3 years and kind of go for the post-Steve

00:10:27   Jobs era, although I think that the events, you know, there's a continuity from when Steve

00:10:33   Jobs was ring leading these events.

00:10:37   They don't feel altogether different.

00:10:38   I mean, his presence is obviously missed.

00:10:41   Maybe, you know, I mean, he was clearly the best presenter that they have.

00:10:45   He has a magnetism, an onstage magnetism that, you know, it's once in a lifetime occurrence.

00:10:53   But it's still, they still feel like the same events.

00:10:56   And the thing that Apple has that none of its competitors do is in the long term, they

00:11:01   have these events with a regularity

00:11:05   that allows them to be repetitious.

00:11:07   Did I just make up a word, is repetitious a word?

00:11:11   - I think it is, it's a great word.

00:11:13   - It should be a word.

00:11:14   - Yeah, no, I agree, and you could go both ways with it.

00:11:19   You could mock it for being the same thing over and over,

00:11:21   or you could applaud it for actually having substance

00:11:25   that they can fill into those blanks

00:11:27   and not have to worry about brainstorming

00:11:31   some crazy new format just for the sake of doing it.

00:11:35   And some things have changed.

00:11:37   They seem to have pulled back on the,

00:11:40   we brought a bunch of developers to Apple HQ for two weeks

00:11:44   and let them loose on the new SDK.

00:11:46   Here's a bunch of apps that they made.

00:11:48   We haven't seen that in a while.

00:11:50   - The events are a lot like their products.

00:11:53   They evolve slowly.

00:11:55   - Right, and part of that I think is

00:11:57   because probably they haven't had any crazy new features

00:12:01   that they would wanna show off with six different apps

00:12:05   or something like that.

00:12:05   Whereas in the past they did

00:12:07   because everything was so new.

00:12:09   Maybe we'll see with this wearable thing,

00:12:12   if it happens next year,

00:12:13   that they did have another bootcamp

00:12:15   where they had 20 developers spend a month

00:12:18   in living in tents in Cupertino

00:12:20   and here's what they came up with.

00:12:22   - Think about a product, I always think of the,

00:12:26   a pro MacBook. And let's, I'm talking long term, so let's even consider the PowerBook.

00:12:33   I'm not going to say it's unchanged, but there is a very clear lineage right from today's

00:12:41   brand new 13 and 15 inch MacBook Pros, the ones that were just announced, you know, four

00:12:48   days ago as we record all the way back to the original titanium PowerBook G4

00:12:55   which I forget what year it came out but I'm thinking I think it was like 2001 or

00:13:00   so right that it was titanium not aluminum but it was colored the same and

00:13:07   you know there were some problems with using titanium and they didn't take too

00:13:11   many years before they switch to aluminum and really ever since then I

00:13:15   I mean, again, there's huge differences in performance and thickness and weight and stuff

00:13:19   like that.

00:13:20   But at each single step of the way, the pro Power Books, Mac Books have really kind of

00:13:26   evolved very slowly.

00:13:28   And there's never really been a radical – and who knows, maybe some year, one of these years,

00:13:32   they're going to unveil a pro Mac Book that's as much of a change as the brand new Mac Pro

00:13:39   is, right?

00:13:41   But they haven't done that yet.

00:13:42   And I think mainly because they haven't seen the need.

00:13:45   You know, and you don't really see people

00:13:47   complaining about that.

00:13:48   And I think the events are sort of the same way.

00:13:51   - I agree, and it was 2001, you were right.

00:13:53   I think a lot of that is, and if you see it,

00:13:57   it's that everyone is copying that look too,

00:13:59   and for all of the products.

00:14:01   So, you know, and I expect that to be the case

00:14:06   for the iPhone and iPad too.

00:14:10   I don't expect in even maybe in 10 years that the iPhone looks drastically different than

00:14:17   it does today or the iPad.

00:14:18   I'm sure they'll be thinner and I'll be – I don't know.

00:14:21   What do you think of these curved phones?

00:14:24   I've never used one but it doesn't seem like that's a direction to pursue but I

00:14:28   don't know.

00:14:29   No.

00:14:30   Samsung which came out with one even then said that it was experimental and they're

00:14:36   only releasing it in one market.

00:14:37   I don't know if it was like South Korea or something, but that it was some kind of experiment.

00:14:42   I mean, it was—I don't have the link handy, but it was like a statement to the verge or

00:14:47   something where they really just wanted to put it in the consumer hands and see if these

00:14:50   curved screens hold up in real world use, which seems like a very strange thing to admit.

00:14:56   I guess they're trying to say, "Are they going to crack when you put them in your pocket?"

00:14:59   or something like that because they're curved.

00:15:01   It just seems like that—that seems like a question you should have answered before

00:15:04   it came to market.

00:15:06   I think it kind of speaks to Samsung's development process.

00:15:10   - Wasn't one of the Google Nexus phones curved though,

00:15:13   as well?

00:15:13   - Yeah, I thought so too.

00:15:15   I wasn't sure why everybody was making a big deal

00:15:16   out of that, although maybe it was curved the other way,

00:15:19   instead of side to side, it was curved the other way,

00:15:23   but either way, I never really saw the point of it.

00:15:25   - Yeah.

00:15:27   I do like your analogy, so talk about the different iPad

00:15:32   models that we have available to us.

00:15:35   Now I do like your analogy to whether you're carrying it

00:15:40   with a MacBook or just using it as your main computer.

00:15:45   - Or at least main portable computer.

00:15:48   - Yeah, exactly.

00:15:49   I think it's interesting now that they do have

00:15:52   kind of chip parity and power parity

00:15:55   that we will start to see which size people gravitate toward

00:16:00   whether it is the smaller one or the bigger one.

00:16:03   - Yeah, I think so too.

00:16:05   And I think, and it's one of those things where Apple is,

00:16:08   I'd be surprised if they did,

00:16:10   but I don't think they're ever gonna break down publicly

00:16:14   how those sales are falling.

00:16:16   They'll say, as they have, how many iPads total

00:16:20   they've sold in a quarter.

00:16:22   And they'll give you, I guess they give us still

00:16:25   average selling price, or that there's a way

00:16:26   to work backwards to it, and then you can kind of make

00:16:30   guesses from there, but it's a lot of guessing

00:16:34   from the outside as to who's buying what.

00:16:35   You kind of just have to eyeball it, I think,

00:16:37   when you're out in public and see what,

00:16:39   which iPads you see people using.

00:16:42   - I wonder if there's a way for one of those

00:16:45   app SDK analytics packages like Flurry

00:16:49   to tell the screen size.

00:16:51   - I think that there is.

00:16:52   I'm almost certain that there is,

00:16:55   that there's like an API that you can tell

00:16:58   what the physical size of a screen is.

00:17:00   - You wouldn't be able to use resolution by itself.

00:17:03   And you'd know, I don't think, I mean, again, we haven't done a, nobody's done a teardown

00:17:07   on these or run, you know, one of those system utilities that reports the exact CPU speed,

00:17:14   etc.

00:17:15   I mean, who knows, once some, you know, these things come out in public, and people can

00:17:19   run those things, who knows, maybe the iPad Air is slightly faster than the iPad Mini.

00:17:24   But it seems like since they're saying a seven, I think it I think it's the same a seven in

00:17:30   both devices.

00:17:31   So yeah, you wouldn't be able to use that either.

00:17:34   - Yeah, I did a little math and I found that the density

00:17:37   of the iPad Air is less than the iPad Mini,

00:17:41   which makes sense because they're fitting a,

00:17:45   the main difference seems to be just the size of the screen.

00:17:48   So there's probably gonna be a little more empty air

00:17:50   in the air.

00:17:51   I'm gonna stick Mini, I think,

00:17:55   I wanna go to an Apple store and try them both.

00:17:58   But for me, the Mini, for where I use it,

00:18:02   makes the most sense still, which is mostly around,

00:18:05   I read in bed with it, I read, I travel,

00:18:09   and I do carry a 13-inch MacBook Air with me,

00:18:11   and I don't plan to stop doing that anytime soon.

00:18:14   So having the Mini, I think, still makes the most sense,

00:18:18   but I do wanna try the Air out and just see just how.

00:18:22   But one thing that I don't think

00:18:24   I've seen a lot of people talking about

00:18:26   that still attracts me to the Mini the most

00:18:29   is the pixel density.

00:18:31   Because they both have the same resolution,

00:18:35   we still have the effectively iPhone pixel density

00:18:40   on the iPad Mini, which to close up,

00:18:43   and I do use it close up,

00:18:45   will look better than the iPad pixel density.

00:18:49   - Yes.

00:18:50   Let's pick that up there.

00:18:51   I'm gonna hold off on that,

00:18:52   'cause I could go forever.

00:18:53   But let's do the sponsor break,

00:18:54   and then we'll come back and I'll sort of say

00:18:58   what I'm thinking about which one I wanna buy.

00:19:00   'Cause I'm only gonna buy one for myself.

00:19:02   - Me too.

00:19:04   - I'll just say this up front,

00:19:06   it's way harder this year than last year, the decision.

00:19:09   - That's a good cliffhanger.

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00:23:06   Mailroute.net/thetalkshow.

00:23:11   And if you use the promo code TTS or spell it out

00:23:16   with the spaces the talk show, TTS or the talk show,

00:23:22   you get 10% off for the lifetime of your account,

00:23:26   which is amazing.

00:23:26   A lot of sponsors offer 10% off for a month

00:23:29   or something like that, which is great, great deal.

00:23:31   But 10% off for lifetime?

00:23:33   I mean, that's amazing.

00:23:35   Go check them out, and my thanks to Melra.

00:23:38   All right, which iPad am I going to buy?

00:23:40   Now I wanna know which promo code people type in more.

00:23:42   - Yeah, that'd be a good question.

00:23:44   I'd go TTS.

00:23:45   - Think so too.

00:23:46   - Yeah.

00:23:47   Boy, I gotta tell you, it's a really tough decision.

00:23:51   As I wrote about in my thing, I mean, this is really,

00:23:53   I mean, it's almost the hardest thing

00:23:54   or biggest section of my write-up of the event is,

00:23:58   and I don't think it's to the detriment of either product,

00:24:03   but I think that last year when the iPad Mini came out,

00:24:07   was a maybe not easy to choose between them but obvious how to choose between

00:24:13   them because they both had major trade-offs the iPad 4 or if you just

00:24:19   bought it six months before and didn't want to upgrade or whatever the iPad 3

00:24:22   which more or less the same device you know lightning adapter and slightly

00:24:28   better performance but let's say the iPad 3 & 4 was same device versus the

00:24:33   original iPad mini the the big iPad had obviously had a retina screen it was

00:24:41   way heavier 1.4 pounds it was thicker than the iPad to let alone the iPad mini

00:24:47   bigger heavier thicker had the a6 processor the a6x I guess but you know

00:24:53   cutting-edge iOS performance and you know more expensive and I'm guessing

00:25:01   more RAM, which is--

00:25:02   - I think it did, yeah.

00:25:03   It's all, anything performance related.

00:25:05   Yeah, I think anything performance related.

00:25:07   And RAM is obviously, it's more than just a convenience,

00:25:09   it's performance.

00:25:12   The iPad Mini, obviously, it's mini.

00:25:14   It was way smaller, way lighter,

00:25:17   and it was less expensive, but it had serious trade-offs.

00:25:21   It did not have a retina screen,

00:25:22   and once you go retina,

00:25:23   it was really kind of rough to go back,

00:25:25   especially given that the whole point of using an iPad

00:25:30   when you already own an iPhone is mainly because it's better to read on a bigger display, right?

00:25:35   I mean, you're with me. I mean, I mostly use my iPad for reading. And reading, I think,

00:25:40   is the one place where the retina screen makes the biggest difference, way bigger than games,

00:25:46   bigger even than video, because anything where it's moving, you don't see the details as

00:25:50   much as when it's static text and you just get that crisp resolution. So you give up

00:25:55   retina.

00:25:56   - Especially on something so small

00:25:58   that you're gonna hold closer to your face.

00:26:00   - Exactly.

00:26:02   I mean everybody had the same reaction

00:26:06   when they saw the original Mini last year.

00:26:08   This is a great device.

00:26:09   I love the way it feels.

00:26:10   I wish it had a retina display.

00:26:12   And performance was behind too.

00:26:14   It was an A5, so it was the year before's system on a chip.

00:26:18   It had less RAM.

00:26:20   And less RAM manifests itself in numerous ways.

00:26:23   But if you're someone like me,

00:26:24   I mean, I do a lot of email, a lot of Twitter, a lot of Safari,

00:26:28   and other reading apps, but largely bouncing

00:26:33   between Safari and Tweetbot and Mail on the iPad.

00:26:38   And when you're switching apps and you

00:26:40   have a lot of tabs open in Safari,

00:26:41   you run into that thing where the memory gets purged.

00:26:44   And when you switch back to Safari,

00:26:45   the tabs have to reload.

00:26:48   And that's something that gets alleviated as you add more RAM.

00:26:51   And I hit that on the iPad Mini more

00:26:53   than I hit when I had an iPad 3.

00:26:55   - And I would say a year later,

00:26:57   that's what I noticed the most of anything.

00:26:59   Yeah, it definitely feels slow,

00:27:01   especially relative to my iPhone 5,

00:27:04   but the RAM, I see it,

00:27:06   especially with more complicated apps these days.

00:27:09   I see apps starting from a fresh state

00:27:11   almost every time I launch them.

00:27:13   - Yeah, yep, me too.

00:27:15   So, you know, a lot of trade-offs

00:27:18   that made it kind of obvious, like what do you value?

00:27:22   And for me, even with those trade-offs, the Mini was the obvious choice because I carry,

00:27:28   when I travel, I carry a MacBook Air.

00:27:35   So I've already got like a 2.5-pound device in the bag.

00:27:40   And so carrying the 0.68-pound Mini as my secondary thing in the bag as opposed to the

00:27:48   1.4 pound iPad 4 was a big difference.

00:27:52   And at home, not just when I'm traveling,

00:27:56   but at home when I'm using my iPad,

00:27:58   it's usually at the end of the day

00:28:00   and I'm on the couch and I'm reading.

00:28:02   And it was, even with the non-retina screen,

00:28:06   just more comfortable to sit there

00:28:07   and hold it in my hand being lightweight

00:28:10   and easily held in one hand.

00:28:11   - For me, the test is if it falls on my face

00:28:16   because I've fallen asleep, how much will it hurt my nose?

00:28:21   And the retina, when I got that first retina iPad 3,

00:28:25   that thing, I was scared, I thought I was,

00:28:27   I literally thought I broke my nose once.

00:28:29   And the Mini, on the other hand, is, you know,

00:28:32   just, it'll bounce off and fall on the floor

00:28:34   and then it doesn't matter, but.

00:28:36   - You know, I think-- - It's a big test for me.

00:28:38   - I think that the big iPad 3, 4,

00:28:41   I think it got .2 pounds heavier than the iPad 2.

00:28:45   I could be wrong, but I think I'm close.

00:28:48   Which doesn't sound like a lot, but felt like a lot somehow.

00:28:52   Somehow felt like it crossed the threshold,

00:28:55   and I can see exactly what you mean,

00:28:56   where it somehow crossed the fall on your face,

00:28:59   and is it gonna hurt threshold?

00:29:01   - I never had the two.

00:29:02   I had the one, and we still have it,

00:29:04   but we have it in a holder, and it's kind of on a swing arm,

00:29:08   so it's mounted, and it's never able to be a face crusher.

00:29:13   But that retina one, that thing is dense

00:29:16   and it had that sharp edge, couldn't deal with that.

00:29:19   - So the way that both of those iPads

00:29:21   evolved year over year, took them both in the direction

00:29:26   that addressed each of their trade-offs.

00:29:29   This is what makes the decision so much more complicated.

00:29:34   So the big trade-off with the full-size iPad

00:29:37   was heaviness and thickness.

00:29:41   And it's radically thinner and smaller.

00:29:44   I mean, the width decrease of decreasing the bevel,

00:29:48   I don't know how big a deal that is.

00:29:50   It seems nice, at least in the hands-on area

00:29:52   last week at Apple.

00:29:53   It did seem nice, seem nicer.

00:29:56   But the weight difference is just dramatic.

00:29:58   It is just amazing.

00:30:00   I was there in the hands-on room with MG Siegler.

00:30:04   And he had his iPad 4 with him and took it out of his bag.

00:30:08   And we could just do a side-by-side.

00:30:10   and it really just felt, it didn't feel like .4 pounds,

00:30:14   it felt like half, it felt like it was half the weight,

00:30:16   felt like we could put two of those new iPads together

00:30:19   and be the same weight as last year's.

00:30:21   It's a huge difference, way more comfortable

00:30:24   to hold in your hands.

00:30:25   And therefore, a lot of the reason that,

00:30:30   that's a lot of the reason I preferred the Mini.

00:30:32   The Mini addresses all of the weaknesses it had

00:30:37   that doesn't have, it has a retina display now, I should say,

00:30:40   and it has the same performance.

00:30:42   It's just as fast, it seems to have as much RAM,

00:30:46   but it's a little bit more expensive

00:30:48   at the same storage point.

00:30:51   So you lose some of that price advantage

00:30:54   of choosing a Mini over an iPad.

00:30:56   So it's a lot tougher.

00:30:59   - It's no longer kind of, oh, I lost it.

00:31:02   Oh, well, cheap, you know?

00:31:04   And I priced out the one I wanted,

00:31:06   it was like, oh, 630 bucks or whatever.

00:31:10   It even got a little heavier.

00:31:13   Nowhere near, nowhere near the difference that when the iPad 2 went to the 3 and they

00:31:18   had to make it a lot heavier to power the retina screen.

00:31:22   It's negligibly heavier.

00:31:24   I think in grams it went from a little like 308 to 331.

00:31:29   So I don't know, it's like 7 or 8% heavier.

00:31:33   And you know, a lot of people ask me, I asked on Twitter when I was there that day, you

00:31:36   you know, what questions you have.

00:31:38   A lot of people said, "Hey, does this small weight increase

00:31:41   "in the Mini feel, make it feel different?"

00:31:43   I didn't have one to do side by side with the old one,

00:31:46   but it's just from my recollection as a daily iPad Mini user

00:31:51   it felt the same, more or less.

00:31:53   I don't think that that--

00:31:55   - I think it's like less than 10% difference.

00:31:57   - Yeah.

00:31:59   But, bottom line, for someone like me who,

00:32:02   when they travel, is already gonna take up,

00:32:05   still gonna take a MacBook and so you've already got like a two to three pound

00:32:10   device in the bag and you're just hey I just don't you know I don't want to weigh

00:32:14   it down with something bigger well now you're still talking about a point seven

00:32:18   pound mini or a 1.0 pound iPad air you're really only talking about three

00:32:27   tenths of a pound extra so it's not you know somebody who decides to carry their

00:32:33   where air in addition to a MacBook isn't really taking on that much more weight as opposed

00:32:41   to last year where the Mini was more than half the weight or less than half the weight

00:32:48   of the full-size iPad. It's a big difference and I really do think it complicates it. I

00:32:55   think I'm still going to choose the Mini though.

00:32:57   - Yeah, .3 pounds is 1/10 of the weight

00:33:02   of a MacBook Air 13 inch.

00:33:06   So, see, but the fact that it's that little,

00:33:10   we're getting in the weeds.

00:33:11   It really is becoming harder to kind of just

00:33:15   make this decision based on,

00:33:17   they've become so close together,

00:33:22   which kind of leads you to wonder

00:33:26   where's the high end of that size gonna be

00:33:30   in a year or two?

00:33:31   Do they go bigger with that?

00:33:32   I don't know.

00:33:33   - I guess, and I wrote about this in my piece this week,

00:33:37   but I think the best way to think about it

00:33:38   is that last year, choosing between the iPad mini

00:33:42   and the iPad Air was sort of like choosing

00:33:44   between a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro,

00:33:47   where there was a lot of trade-offs,

00:33:48   performance trade-offs, screen resolution trade-offs,

00:33:51   bigger price differential.

00:33:53   And this year, to me, it's more like choosing

00:33:55   between the 11-inch Air and the 13-inch Air,

00:33:57   where it's more or less the same

00:33:59   and you just kinda have to choose

00:34:00   between which size you like better.

00:34:03   And it's a lot more subtle of a difference to make.

00:34:08   - Yeah, and I wonder if you're mostly reading

00:34:15   the minis better if you do any sort of creative stuff

00:34:20   that the bigger one--

00:34:21   - Yeah, I think people who type on their iPad,

00:34:25   And I know there's a lot of people who do.

00:34:28   It's gotta be better on the big one.

00:34:30   Although I just saw a friend on Twitter said,

00:34:32   you know, I type better on the Mini.

00:34:33   And I think it's because he's a thumb typer

00:34:36   rather than a touch typer.

00:34:38   Or maybe he has very tiny hands, I don't know.

00:34:39   But if you're putting your iPad out in landscape

00:34:44   and doing typing on the on-screen keyboard,

00:34:48   the big one is effectively a full-size keyboard

00:34:50   and the Mini is not.

00:34:53   I can't touch type on it.

00:34:54   I can only thumb type on it.

00:34:55   But I don't do much right.

00:34:56   That's why I carry a MacBook Air when I travel around,

00:35:00   you know, when I'm out of the house and I travel somewhere.

00:35:03   That's why I take a MacBook Air with me.

00:35:05   - Same here, and beyond the fact that I do a lot of,

00:35:10   not just typing, but design work

00:35:12   that you just can't do on an iPad yet.

00:35:14   - Right.

00:35:15   - Were you surprised at all that they didn't,

00:35:18   you know, and I made some stupid joke about this on Twitter

00:35:20   before the event, but were you surprised

00:35:23   they didn't do some sort of keyboard cover now that they're so gung-ho about

00:35:28   accessories and increasing margins that way? No, I guess I'm not surprised.

00:35:34   Although I thought, and I'm not one, I've often said repeatedly on this show that

00:35:39   I don't really read much into the design or slogan of the event invitations,

00:35:44   but the fact that this one said we have a lot to, we still have a lot to cover

00:35:49   made me think, oh, maybe they've got something

00:35:52   specifically cover related to talk about.

00:35:55   But the covers are, you know, there's really--

00:35:58   - And you see The Verge like went back

00:35:59   through all the old invites and kind of said,

00:36:03   okay, these ones kind of have subtle hints

00:36:05   at the stuff and these ones don't.

00:36:08   Anyway.

00:36:09   - No, I didn't see that.

00:36:10   - Oh yeah, it was pretty good.

00:36:11   They had a bunch of them, so.

00:36:13   - This one clearly had nothing to do with the no hint.

00:36:17   It really just meant we have a lot of little things to cover.

00:36:21   - Yeah, basically.

00:36:22   I would be, I would probably buy,

00:36:26   I haven't actually tried that Surface keyboard cover,

00:36:30   but I also don't think that really says much

00:36:32   about what Apple could do if they put their mind to it, so.

00:36:36   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:36:38   I do think it's intriguing.

00:36:41   I also think, though, and I know for me personally,

00:36:45   And this just is largely about the places where I use my MacBook Air while I'm traveling.

00:36:53   Yeah, sometimes I am at a hotel desk and a tablet on a hardware keyboard cover would

00:37:01   do just as well.

00:37:02   But when I'm on an airplane, I don't put my air on the tray usually.

00:37:08   I usually literally use it as a laptop.

00:37:10   I have it on my lap.

00:37:11   And that's, you know, everybody always says even with the Surface, you can't really type

00:37:15   on your lap.

00:37:18   And I use it to take notes at conferences sometimes, you know, like at WWDC or something

00:37:21   like that.

00:37:22   And again, there, you have no tray.

00:37:24   You have to use it on your lap.

00:37:25   And so, you know, a tablet hooked up to a keyboard wouldn't work for me.

00:37:29   Yeah.

00:37:30   What I kind of want, and maybe with the low-power Bluetooth, this will become more possible,

00:37:37   would be to use the iPhone as the iPad keyboard.

00:37:41   I'm actually still better at typing, although I've gotten worse at typing on my iPhone.

00:37:46   But autocorrect seems to have gotten worse too, but I don't know about that.

00:37:51   But it seems to be going further back in your typing and changing things to be wrong words.

00:37:57   But –

00:37:58   Yeah, I've seen that too.

00:37:59   Just the other day, I was posting from the airplane and I was using my iPad and I wrote

00:38:08   I wanted to say it's just icing on the cake.

00:38:11   And it changed it to justifying the cake.

00:38:16   But it only made the change after I must have typed icing.

00:38:22   And I know there was a space in there.

00:38:23   And I just, I obviously didn't notice the change happened.

00:38:27   But it's like I wasn't even thinking about it

00:38:29   because it was, you know, like two words later.

00:38:33   It was annoying.

00:38:36   'Cause it was also one of those things

00:38:37   because I was on the plane,

00:38:39   I didn't catch it for a couple minutes.

00:38:41   - Yeah, I don't know what's up with that.

00:38:44   Hopefully they'll fix that.

00:38:45   But anyway, I would love to use my iPhone

00:38:47   as an iPad keyboard.

00:38:50   I don't know what, maybe I should just,

00:38:52   and I do, like I find myself wanting to respond

00:38:55   to an email on my iPad and then go,

00:38:57   oh, I'll just do this on my phone

00:38:59   because it's easier to type there.

00:39:01   - I do think there's something to the fact,

00:39:04   I mean, it's pretty clear.

00:39:05   I mean, at Apple is, they don't sell a slew of first party peripherals or add-ons to their

00:39:15   devices, but they're obviously keenly interested in them.

00:39:19   I mean, they first made a foray into these cases with the bumpers for the iPhone 4, which

00:39:26   didn't seem to take off.

00:39:29   It doesn't seem like the Apple branded bumpers

00:39:32   were particularly popular with the iPhone 4 and 4S.

00:39:36   I never saw that many of them in the wild.

00:39:39   And I think--

00:39:40   - Well, they also gave away a bunch of free ones.

00:39:42   - Yeah, and even giving away the free ones,

00:39:44   I didn't see that many.

00:39:45   - No, I got one and put it on and then said,

00:39:47   "Eh, nevermind."

00:39:48   - My thought with that, and it's not even,

00:39:51   I don't even think it's particularly insightful

00:39:53   because I think that they,

00:39:55   I think they spelled it out when they introduced them

00:39:57   event which was, "Okay, we've noticed that a lot of you are using cases with your iPhone,

00:40:02   but we've designed the whole iPhone including the back to be beautiful."

00:40:07   So here, all right, you want something that protects the thing a little bit and raises

00:40:12   over the glass so you can set it down and not put the glass on a surface. Use this instead

00:40:18   and at least you can still – most of the iPhone is still exposed. I think people's

00:40:23   reaction to that was no no no I want to cover up everything you know I you know

00:40:28   and so the new cases this year's cases for the for the 5s and the 5c you know

00:40:38   are more like the cases that everybody's been selling for for years and years

00:40:42   where it wraps the whole device and they did that for the iPad as well where they

00:40:47   have well I guess if you look at the iPhone and iPad they both were launched

00:40:52   with more types of accessories than they have today. Like the iPhone, remember the Bluetooth

00:41:00   earpiece that Apple made? And then with the iPad, they had that weird keyboard type thing.

00:41:07   And I think through usage, they said, "Eh, these things aren't really worth pursuing.

00:41:11   But oh, there is this market for specific cases that we didn't have at launch. Let's

00:41:17   do those."

00:41:18   You know what's funny is that weird keyboard dock that launched with the original 2010

00:41:26   iPad, which I guess in hindsight was sort of a sign of their not quite knowing what

00:41:30   everybody was going to want to do with iPads yet.

00:41:36   It was almost explicit in the presentation.

00:41:38   Look, we know this is great for some things.

00:41:41   We don't know what everything's going to be.

00:41:43   But that still made me think going into this week with that we have lots to cover that

00:41:48   that maybe they would do a keyboard cover.

00:41:50   'Cause they've had, it wouldn't be out of the blue,

00:41:51   it wouldn't be unprecedented that they would do

00:41:53   an iPad-specific keyboard.

00:41:56   - And Logitech seems to be kinda capturing

00:42:00   a nice chunk of some market.

00:42:02   I don't know how big it is, I don't know how many people

00:42:04   are actually buying those things.

00:42:06   And Amazon even has a knockoff of them,

00:42:08   which you kinda wanna buy just to see how junky it is.

00:42:12   - Well, I'll tell you where I do see,

00:42:17   I fly enough that I, you know, I see,

00:42:22   I'm in an airport, it just feels like I'm in airports

00:42:23   a lot nowadays, and I do see an awful lot of people

00:42:27   typing, you know, with some kind of hardware keyboard

00:42:32   on their iPads, a lot.

00:42:33   - Some of them are hilarious.

00:42:35   They have like eight different, they have to fold them out

00:42:38   like six different ways.

00:42:39   It's like, why don't you just get one of those

00:42:43   big ass Dell Inspirons and do that, you know?

00:42:46   I don't know, it's almost negates the fact

00:42:49   that the iPad is so small and portable.

00:42:51   - But yeah, a little bit.

00:42:53   But on the other hand, I still do see,

00:42:56   and we were talking about this at the event,

00:42:58   the Hands-On event, and I tried to write about it

00:43:01   this week too, but that if you wanna be somebody

00:43:04   who only travels with one device, when you're traveling,

00:43:07   just one computer in your bag,

00:43:12   new iPad Air plus a third-party keyboard is still gonna be like half the weight

00:43:19   of even an 11-inch MacBook Air because an 11-inch MacBook Air is like 2.4

00:43:25   pounds so with a one pound iPad I mean how much those keyboards weigh they

00:43:32   can't weigh more than you know three four five I mean at most half a pound

00:43:36   right so you're still coming in at like half the weight of an 11-inch Air which

00:43:41   It's a lot, you know, which is, you know,

00:43:42   one of the smallest laptops out there.

00:43:44   - I'm looking it up.

00:43:48   Yeah, I agree, and almost kind of makes you wonder

00:43:51   why they haven't used some of this technology

00:43:55   to make the MacBook Air thinner if,

00:43:58   it could just be battery, I don't know.

00:44:01   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:44:02   Well, I think then you get into the whole realm of,

00:44:05   you know, the desktop class nature of the A7,

00:44:09   you know does this presage a future MacBook Air that's running on a you know

00:44:15   A8 or A9 and you know announce it you know might be the sort of thing that

00:44:21   they'd have like like the Intel switch that they would have to announce two or

00:44:27   three months ahead of time at WWDC to get developers to re- Mac developers to

00:44:31   recompile apps as fat binaries with ARM and Intel versions of the Mac and then

00:44:39   and start selling the thing in September

00:44:41   or something like that.

00:44:42   But I don't know, I don't think that's likely,

00:44:44   but I think it is definitely possible in terms,

00:44:47   why would they do that, I think, to get an air

00:44:51   that weighs more like one point something pounds

00:44:54   than two point something pounds.

00:44:56   - Totally, and that'd be crazy.

00:44:59   All right, so I'm looking at the ultra-thin keyboard cover

00:45:01   for iPad, which seems to be the thin one, the light one,

00:45:05   and that's still--

00:45:06   - Is that the Logitech, and that's Logitech?

00:45:07   - Correct, yeah.

00:45:08   which is the...

00:45:09   It's a hundred bucks.

00:45:11   They have like three or four different kinds.

00:45:14   One of them looks just like the Apple Bluetooth keyboard.

00:45:18   One of them is the one that I see a lot with eight different flaps where people have to...

00:45:22   It's like a trapper keeper.

00:45:24   But this is the very simple one that's a cover, the ultra-thin keyboard cover for iPad, not

00:45:30   for Mini.

00:45:31   And it comes in four colors and weighs 0.8 pounds.

00:45:35   So that's more than I would have thought.

00:45:36   0.78.

00:45:37   All right, well then you're still talking about 1.78 pounds and you're a half pound

00:45:42   under even the 11 inch air. It's not as much as I would have thought, but it's still lighter.

00:45:48   It's getting there, yeah.

00:45:50   Right. I mean, a half pound is a half pound.

00:45:54   I wonder if it's going to come down to stock levels. I wonder if people are going to see

00:45:59   that the mini is delayed three months, so they got to buy an air.

00:46:03   Yeah, it'll be interesting to see I'm interesting from an operational standpoint, and I think the fact that the

00:46:09   They announced they announced a ship date for the air the iPad air and it's what was it ten days after the event I think

00:46:18   It's next Friday's right so that's like nine or no. That's more than ten days. It's

00:46:24   No ten days ten days after the event the mini is

00:46:30   quote unquote, "later in November," which I think really shows just how tight it was

00:46:38   engineering and operationally to get the Mini to retina and the A7 in one year, because

00:46:47   that's literally the latest that they could ship and still have any hope of meeting holiday

00:46:51   demand.

00:46:52   Right?

00:46:53   I mean, you can't ship a holiday product in December.

00:46:57   Hopefully it'll be out later in November, I'm thinking, will mean it'll be at least

00:47:02   available for sale in some quantities by, what is it called, Black Friday, the day after

00:47:08   Thanksgiving.

00:47:10   Because if it's not, then a lot of people are just going to buy the one that is available.

00:47:14   You won't even have to make a decision.

00:47:17   So here's another interesting thing.

00:47:19   I don't know if this is the first time I suppose I could look, but of the iPad Air, the Wi-Fi

00:47:25   and cellular models will be available the same day this time.

00:47:28   I didn't know that was different before.

00:47:30   Well, I don't know about the last year's full-size iPad, but I remember the Mini, the cellular

00:47:36   version didn't ship for two or three weeks after the Wi-Fi version was available, which

00:47:43   is one of the reasons I was stuck with the Wi-Fi version, because I wanted to get it

00:47:47   within the first possible day.

00:47:50   So here's a question for you.

00:47:53   I'll give you the question, but I'm going to do a sponsor read,

00:47:55   and you can answer afterwards.

00:47:57   Here's the question.

00:48:00   Number one, do you buy a cellular iPad?

00:48:05   You can answer that one.

00:48:07   Or do you go Wi-Fi only?

00:48:09   I've done both.

00:48:11   What are you going to buy this year?

00:48:13   Maybe we'll do a cliffhanger.

00:48:15   All right, do a cliffhanger.

00:48:16   All right.

00:48:18   It's not a simple answer.

00:48:20   All right, well then, let's hold it.

00:48:22   I want to tell you about our second sponsor, and again,

00:48:25   longtime sponsor of the show, Good Friends at an Event Apart.

00:48:30   The "an" in their name is just as important

00:48:33   as the "the" in the talk show.

00:48:36   So I would never call them Event Apart.

00:48:38   They're an event apart.

00:48:40   What's an event apart?

00:48:42   It's the design conference for people who make websites.

00:48:46   It's the one web design and front end development conference

00:48:50   that you don't want to miss.

00:48:52   Because year after year, an event apart

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00:48:59   in public first.

00:49:01   An event apart stage is where Ethan Marcotte introduced

00:49:05   responsive web design.

00:49:07   You can't shake a stick today and not

00:49:08   talk about responsive web design, right?

00:49:10   That's the idea that you create one design, you use CSS,

00:49:13   you can use JavaScript, you can use other things,

00:49:15   you produce one website, one set of URLs,

00:49:20   none of this nonsense where you redirect

00:49:21   to mobile.domainname.com or something like that,

00:49:25   one set of domain names where the layout is flexible

00:49:28   and adjusts to any and every client that hits it,

00:49:32   whether it's a phone, whether it's a tablet,

00:49:34   or whether it's a Mac Pro with a 30-inch cinema display.

00:49:39   That's where responsive web design became public.

00:49:43   where Christina Halvorson sounded the cry for content strategy, right? I mean

00:49:48   content strategy is like it's like its own industry now. People did years ago

00:49:52   before she introduced it and started singing the praises of it and preaching

00:49:58   it at an event apart nobody had even heard of content strategy. It's a great

00:50:03   conference. I've been to it several times. It's also a conference that isn't just

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00:50:30   Can't recommend it highly enough great great conference

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00:50:43   Really great, my thanks to an event apart.

00:50:46   All right, cellular or Wi-Fi iPad.

00:50:51   I've only ever bought cellular models

00:50:55   'cause I do use that a lot.

00:50:56   - And I've bought now twice the wrong kind

00:51:02   and have had to return it, or wanted to.

00:51:05   So the first iPad I ever bought was cellular

00:51:08   and that was the AT&T 3G original iPad.

00:51:12   And I was very excited about streaming the Cubs games

00:51:17   at the gym over 3G, 'cause back then you had unlimited data,

00:51:23   so I could pull down as many, as much as I wanted to.

00:51:28   I could stream video without being concerned about that.

00:51:31   And it didn't work because the network sucked so bad

00:51:35   that the video just didn't stream where I was.

00:51:38   So after that point, I was like, all right,

00:51:41   I'm not getting another 3G iPad, this is stupid.

00:51:46   And then iOS whatever, five or something,

00:51:50   turned on tethering, so even then I was even more

00:51:54   against the idea of having a cellular iPad.

00:51:57   And then I bought an iPad with Retina, iPad 3 with WiFi,

00:52:02   and that was the first LTE,

00:52:08   was that the first LTE Apple product, period?

00:52:10   - I think so.

00:52:11   - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:52:13   - And I borrowed someone's LTE thing

00:52:16   and went, holy crap, I need this.

00:52:19   So I returned my iPad and got an LTE one.

00:52:22   And then I found that iPad to be unusably heavy

00:52:29   so I never used that.

00:52:31   So then when the Mini came out, I'm like,

00:52:32   all right, I'm just getting the first thing that comes out,

00:52:34   getting the WiFi one.

00:52:36   And then a month after that, I realized that I'm an idiot

00:52:39   and should only buy cellular from now on.

00:52:41   So that's the answer is that I'm getting a Verizon,

00:52:45   but I said, now I'm tempted this crazy guy

00:52:48   who's now the CEO of T-Mobile is doing things like

00:52:51   setting his hair on fire and giving everyone

00:52:53   200 megs of free data a month.

00:52:56   And then I wonder, should I get a T-Mobile iPad

00:53:00   and have 200 megs of free data?

00:53:03   Probably not, I'm on the Verizon family plan.

00:53:05   So for 10 bucks a month, I can just tap into the pool of--

00:53:09   plan right right so anyway that was a unnecessarily long way of saying

00:53:13   Verizon 32 gigs space gray mini I bet a lot of people have gone through the

00:53:19   similar jumps though like that it was a good explanation I you know what here's

00:53:26   a big one for me is I've always bought the highest capacity one but I think I

00:53:31   don't think anymore because now that they've gone to 128 I don't I've never

00:53:36   filled the 64 so I feel like I don't need that and I feel like I should

00:53:41   double-check my storage on the 64 because I don't know that I really need

00:53:48   even 64 because one of the things I wanted 64 was to load up a bunch of

00:53:52   music and I feel like that's you know I feel like that's you got to get with the

00:53:58   times and iTunes radio is really the way to go if you want to listen to music and

00:54:02   I know if you're on a plane you know your iTunes radio isn't gonna work for

00:54:05   But I don't really listen to music if I'm gonna listen to music on my plan anyway

00:54:09   I want it from my phone not from the iPad right. I just want the headphones going into my pocket not to something

00:54:14   I'm carrying around

00:54:16   So exactly I don't know that I need even 64. I'm gonna double check and I don't have big games

00:54:21   I'm not an infinity blade player, so I don't have

00:54:24   Big games. I'm you know whereas I still I still buy the biggest iPhone

00:54:28   Storage wise that I can buy and also I mean even if just for you know photos and videos that I shoot

00:54:35   Also, I don't shoot photos and videos with my iPads,

00:54:38   so I don't need storage for that.

00:54:40   But I do go cellular.

00:54:42   - Yeah, for me that's the better use of that 100 bucks

00:54:45   or whatever because the way I think about it is

00:54:48   how much video will I reasonably watch

00:54:51   on this trip that I'm going on?

00:54:52   That's probably the most amount of storage I'd ever need.

00:54:54   And it turns out the 16 is too small, even at SD.

00:54:59   I find myself having to delete stuff and redownload it

00:55:02   and that's very annoying.

00:55:03   - I'm a little surprised, especially since I went

00:55:05   I'm a little surprised the 16 stayed around,

00:55:08   although I think it's about hitting certain price points

00:55:11   and stuff like that, but it's, you know.

00:55:14   - Yeah.

00:55:16   - It's a vague disappointment to me

00:55:17   that the 399 for Mini and 499 for iPad Air isn't 32 gig.

00:55:22   - Yeah, you'd think that at some point

00:55:27   they would kind of reset the base level.

00:55:30   - Right, because it is stretching it.

00:55:31   16-- - Which they've done

00:55:32   on the iPhone. - Yeah.

00:55:33   I mean, the first iPhone started at four gigs, right?

00:55:36   Or eight, I forgot, one of those two.

00:55:39   - I feel like it's one of those things

00:55:40   where I'll eat my hat if next year

00:55:42   16 gigabyte iPads don't go away.

00:55:44   I feel like that the bar will be raised

00:55:46   and 32 will become a new baseline.

00:55:48   - What will happen first, that or the iPod Classic?

00:55:53   Retirement, I don't know.

00:55:55   I do, so a lot of people are also wondering

00:55:58   about the iPad 2, why it's still around

00:56:01   and why it's still $400 and not something like $200.

00:56:06   And you address it in your post very well.

00:56:10   And I joke that I think that they should have just called it

00:56:12   the iPad Square because it's still, if you are,

00:56:16   and I see these almost every coffee shop now,

00:56:19   one of those point of sale things,

00:56:21   and a lot of them use the old dock connector

00:56:24   either for power or the credit card swiper.

00:56:29   Square of course uses the headphone jack

00:56:32   for the credit card swiping thing,

00:56:34   but if you get the new Square register,

00:56:37   I believe it uses the old pin connector for everything.

00:56:42   And that's where you don't need retina,

00:56:46   you don't need performance, you just need something.

00:56:48   - You do want the big one though.

00:56:50   - You need the big one.

00:56:51   - Right.

00:56:52   - Especially if you got messy hands or something

00:56:55   and you just need a big touch target

00:56:57   for those cash register apps

00:57:00   and for people that sign in and all that kind of stuff.

00:57:03   But they don't wanna make it too cheap

00:57:05   because they don't want normal people buying it

00:57:07   instead of a good iPad, right?

00:57:10   - You know, that's a non-cynical way to put it.

00:57:14   I think even the more cynical way might have a lot of truth

00:57:17   where if there's so many people who are still buying it

00:57:20   at 3.99, three, four weeks ago before this event,

00:57:25   Why reduce the price if they don't seem to be under any pressure from consumers if demand isn't tapering off at $3.99

00:57:32   why not keep it around and

00:57:35   presumably, you know given that it's

00:57:37   It's a 20 a product that debuted in April 2011

00:57:44   Right. Mm-hmm, right April 2011

00:57:48   uh

00:57:51   At $4.99, and now they're still selling it for $3.99, presumably I would think that they're

00:57:56   making insane margins off it.

00:57:59   I would assume that in terms of profit margin, it's the most profitable iOS device they make.

00:58:05   I mean, maybe the iPhone is the most because of the subsidies.

00:58:08   It's probably the most profitable percentage-wise unsubsidized device that they make.

00:58:13   Dave Asprey Yep.

00:58:15   I would agree with that.

00:58:16   And it's also important to consider the relative cost.

00:58:20   I was asking someone about this a while ago and they said that the cost savings between

00:58:27   one of those iPad point of sales and a cash register is still hundreds or even a thousand

00:58:33   dollars or something like that.

00:58:35   We're worrying about a hundred bucks here and there, but the reality is that they're

00:58:41   still saving maybe a hundred percent or even more of the all-in cost.

00:58:46   It doesn't really matter that much.

00:58:48   I was talking to somebody else about Square.

00:58:51   And I think in particular, you know, it ties into, you know, using the iPad as the device

00:58:57   that drives the reader.

00:59:00   Square does not win.

00:59:02   Their rates are – their rates are competitive, but they're not the best.

00:59:13   Like you can save money by going with some kind of dedicated point of sale or something.

00:59:18   In terms of the hardware or the processing fees?

00:59:23   Processing fees. But squares are not bad, you know. But the main win has nothing to do with

00:59:29   comparing a 2.3% plus 30% 30 cents per transaction versus whatever else. It really is just about the

00:59:37   the fact that they take so much of the friction

00:59:39   out of setting it up in the first place

00:59:42   and keeping it running, where you just sign up

00:59:45   and it's like a three-step elegant sign-up process

00:59:49   and you put a reader in an iPad and you're off and that's it.

00:59:53   And for small business owners, like you said,

00:59:55   coffee shops and stuff like that,

00:59:57   their biggest concern is making the coffee

01:00:00   and making customers happy.

01:00:02   The last thing they wanna worry about is the register.

01:00:06   It's just about, it's just getting rid of the hassle.

01:00:10   It just eliminates so much hassle

01:00:12   from getting it up and running.

01:00:14   And maybe it's just one of those things

01:00:17   where maybe financially you'd be better off

01:00:19   biting the bullet and spending three days

01:00:22   setting up something more complicated

01:00:24   because you're gonna use it for the next five years.

01:00:27   But nobody ever wants to spend those three days doing that.

01:00:29   They just wanna spend an hour setting up Square

01:00:32   and be done with it. - Totally.

01:00:34   Yep.

01:00:35   The other group I know for a fact, because just talking to people at Apple, big, big

01:00:39   buyers of the iPad 2 are schools.

01:00:44   And I think it's, you know, meaning K-12.

01:00:46   Because I think once you're talking about college, you know, colleges don't buy the

01:00:50   iPads for students.

01:00:51   Students come with their own.

01:00:52   We're talking about K-12 schools.

01:00:55   And you would think, I would think that even last year's iPad mini, which was a lower price

01:01:01   starting point at $329 would be great especially for the elementary school kids but from what

01:01:07   I've been told schools want full-size iPads and they want the cheapest one they can possibly

01:01:12   get and so the iPad 2 I you know I've been told it still sells really really well to

01:01:20   k-12 and so thus it stays.

01:01:26   if you're buying 1,000 units,

01:01:28   that's 100,000 bucks you're saving.

01:01:30   That's not nothing.

01:01:32   - Right. - No.

01:01:33   All right, I lied.

01:01:35   Apparently Square Stand is available

01:01:38   to support the Lightning connector.

01:01:41   So you don't need the old--

01:01:43   - It wasn't a, you're not nuts though.

01:01:45   When it first debuted, it wasn't.

01:01:47   - Right, yeah.

01:01:48   - But you'd be not, I mean, honestly though,

01:01:50   I mean, you know, I'm as picky as the next guy.

01:01:52   But if, you know, if Dan, if you and I open a coffee shop,

01:01:56   I'd make sure, I'd put an iPad 2 in the register.

01:01:59   - Yeah. - Right?

01:02:00   Why spend an extra 100 bucks?

01:02:04   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:02:05   - It really is just a touchscreen, and like you said,

01:02:07   it's still cheaper than a dedicated register,

01:02:09   but it doesn't even make any sense.

01:02:12   - Mm-hmm, yeah, it's interesting that Apple

01:02:15   has upgraded all their, the Apple Store iPad displays

01:02:19   to Retina, at least the ones I've seen.

01:02:22   But I guess they probably have a lot of

01:02:24   of dinged up ones that they can't sell or something like that. Or, you know, returns

01:02:29   or something like that. Good use of those.

01:02:33   Let me take this break right here and just tell you about our third sponsor. Another

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01:06:04   - So speaking of web design,

01:06:07   I'm curious what you think about Apple's new

01:06:11   kind of paradigm of web pages where they're doing that thing that a lot of,

01:06:15   well, I see a lot of startups do it too,

01:06:18   where you're almost flipping through a PowerPoint when you load the web page.

01:06:23   But you go down or no, I guess some of them will go side to side.

01:06:26   It's not a, yeah, you go down. It's not a smooth scroll though.

01:06:30   It's almost like you're flipping through slides and it's not on every page,

01:06:34   but on a lot of their, you like that?

01:06:38   I kind of don't like it. Everything looks great.

01:06:40   like the 5C page is very colorful, looks awesome.

01:06:45   I'm not crazy about the flipping through slides.

01:06:49   - Yeah, I'm looking at the Air page now.

01:06:52   Yeah, and you kinda click a button.

01:06:54   Yeah, no, that's exactly what it is.

01:06:55   You do go down, and it is, yeah, that's a good way to put it

01:06:59   that it is sort of like a keynote deck,

01:07:02   and there's like little dots on the side

01:07:04   that tell you which one you're on.

01:07:08   I can see why they do it because it certainly makes it more skimmable, but it makes it harder

01:07:14   to go deep. So I don't know, I guess I'm a little non-plus, or maybe I'm misusing non-plus

01:07:20   there. Ambivalent.

01:07:23   What it does is kind of lets one piece of the story own the screen, but it doesn't...

01:07:32   It's not a very smooth scrolling thing.

01:07:36   Yeah.

01:07:37   I wonder how much of it is about what they're like

01:07:42   using it on iOS devices.

01:07:46   - Oh yeah, could be.

01:07:47   And some of these, I mean the stuff they're doing

01:07:51   with motion graphics and,

01:07:54   I always love reading the technology behind some of those

01:07:56   where it's like some crazy JPEG that's being

01:07:59   rendered in a very weird way.

01:08:02   They're making videos out of images and all kinds of stuff.

01:08:06   It's kind of cool.

01:08:07   Yeah, I hadn't really looked at this before.

01:08:09   As I sit here flipping through the iPad Air page, it is kind of neat the way that each

01:08:13   transition – the iPad Air itself is part of the animation and never leaves the screen.

01:08:21   It just keeps moving around and different stuff keeps coming by.

01:08:25   So it's technically impressive, but I think in terms of answering the questions that I

01:08:30   have as sort of an obsessive nerd when I come to the page, it's not as good.

01:08:36   I always just go straight to the tech spec page.

01:08:38   That's where the stuff I want to see is usually hiding.

01:08:43   They have a good page too, where it's not the same on--

01:08:49   I've referred to it more times this week than probably

01:08:52   any other page on the internet.

01:08:54   You just go to apple.com/ipad, and it's like the top level

01:08:58   all iPad page.

01:08:59   And you go to compare iPads, and it's

01:09:02   sort of like one of their tech spec pages,

01:09:04   but it covers all of the iPads that they're still selling.

01:09:08   So it compares--

01:09:09   - Oh, interesting.

01:09:10   - It compares the iPad 2, the iPad Air,

01:09:15   the old but still available at 299 original iPad Mini

01:09:20   and the new iPad Mini.

01:09:22   And you can see some of the weight differences

01:09:24   and size differences.

01:09:25   It's a super helpful page in terms of understanding

01:09:30   the differences from last year to this year.

01:09:34   A couple other things from this week. I guess one of the other big, well I don't know how

01:09:44   big it is, but there's a lot of, you know, iWork got updated this week and it's, you

01:09:49   know, the big news is that they've achieved parity across three platforms, Mac, iOS, and

01:09:56   let's call it four platforms really. Mac, iPhone, iPad, and the iCloud for the I work

01:10:04   for iCloud web apps and that they all use the same document format now which

01:10:11   all sounds pretty cool there was a pretty good demo I don't know how true

01:10:15   to life it is you know on stage of two people editing the same document at the

01:10:19   same time that that demo by the way you know that's it was kind of corny right

01:10:26   - Right?

01:10:27   - It was, that's what I was going,

01:10:29   I wonder if Steve would have approved this demo.

01:10:32   Like, Eddy Cue weird glamor photos and that kind of stuff.

01:10:36   - All right, I don't know though.

01:10:39   It's hard to say.

01:10:40   - Maybe, yeah, I don't know.

01:10:41   - 'Cause you know, Steve was obviously there

01:10:43   when they had approved Phil Schiller jumping off

01:10:45   a 10 foot ladder while holding an iBook, so.

01:10:48   - True.

01:10:49   That's true, yeah, maybe he would have loved it,

01:10:50   I don't know.

01:10:53   But the fallout of this is that the way they've achieved document and feature parity across

01:11:01   these platforms was not by raising the web app and iOS app document and feature abilities

01:11:10   to match those of the Mac, but rather by using, effectively, I think, the iOS engines of these

01:11:18   apps as the baseline for all of them, including the Mac, which means that on the Mac, your

01:11:24   users of all three apps are losing a lot of features. Whether everybody used them or not,

01:11:29   you know, we can argue about, but obviously some people used everything. And so pages

01:11:33   and numbers users, it seems like pages users in particular, are up in arms if they were,

01:11:38   you know, reliant on a lot of the advanced layout and typography features that used to

01:11:41   be available in pages.

01:11:44   I've never really used pages, but I use numbers every day as...

01:11:50   All the charts I've ever done for SplatF are in numbers.

01:11:55   So when I started reading tweets, people saying, "Oh my God, they butchered all these apps."

01:12:00   I freaked out because I'd already updated them.

01:12:03   And I popped open probably my most complex spreadsheet and charts thing,

01:12:09   and it seems like I'm going to be okay.

01:12:11   like some of the features I used like custom colors

01:12:16   and that sort of thing were hidden a little,

01:12:20   but it looks like everything that I used in Numbers

01:12:24   is still there, maybe a little harder to find.

01:12:27   I haven't gotten too far into the weeds yet,

01:12:29   but I'd love to hear what Horace has,

01:12:32   Horace, that you has to say,

01:12:33   'cause he's also a Numbers guy,

01:12:36   and he does stuff that I don't even know how to do

01:12:39   in numbers.

01:12:40   So I'd love to hear how he looks at that because it really is, people, I get an email, by far

01:12:46   the most popular, most common email I get is, "Hey man, how do you make your charts?"

01:12:51   And people are maybe expecting a complicated answer and just say, "No, it's numbers.

01:12:55   It's shockingly powerful and very simple and it makes really good looking charts."

01:13:00   And it seems like the stuff that I use it for is still possible and in fact one of the

01:13:06   bugs that was driving me nuts has been fixed. A lot of people hate pie charts. I kind of

01:13:12   hate pie charts too, but they had a weird thing where you could not take out the drop

01:13:16   shadow in a pie chart. On text, it was permanently... You could maybe go into the... I don't even

01:13:26   know how you would do it, but now you can finally get rid of the drop shadow in pie

01:13:31   pie charts, so that makes me happy.

01:13:32   But I should probably just not use pie charts.

01:13:35   But so far, so good for numbers.

01:13:38   I don't know about pages.

01:13:40   I sympathize with the users whose pet feature--

01:13:43   no, I don't want to--

01:13:45   it seems almost like I'm minimizing it.

01:13:50   Features that they relied upon, if they're gone,

01:13:53   I sympathize.

01:13:56   I've been there sometimes in the past with various apps

01:13:58   you know, a major update, you know, takes something away or changes something that you've relied upon.

01:14:03   But I do wonder how many times, how many times does it have to happen where Apple has a major

01:14:11   update to something and takes out a lot. And, you know, before people get it in their heads that

01:14:19   before you ever rely on anything from Apple, assume that in the future it might get reduced

01:14:26   in functionality to be increased in simplicity. Right? If they did it to Final Cut Pro, which

01:14:32   was a true pro app, you know, let alone like they did the same thing with iMovie back in

01:14:38   2008, you know, it's happened numerous times over the years. And every time people act

01:14:45   like it came out of the blue and then people are surprised. I mean, I can see being disappointed

01:14:51   and I can see, you know, filing, you know, requests with Apple. These are the features

01:14:55   I really hope you bring back first.

01:14:58   I mean, that's utterly reasonable,

01:14:59   but I think to be surprised by it is a little naive.

01:15:02   - Yeah, and that, although in the case of Final Cut Pro,

01:15:06   that was a new app, and the old app, you know,

01:15:09   still lives on your computer.

01:15:11   You would have to manually install.

01:15:12   - Well, don't they still have, some people,

01:15:14   I've been so busy working on my write-up

01:15:16   of this week's event that I still haven't updated my Mac

01:15:21   to the iWork apps, but somebody told me

01:15:23   that they keep the old ones around.

01:15:24   I mean like they're in like a folder or something. Oh cool. I didn't know I didn't know that

01:15:28   I mean so you know if you're listening into the show and you've been worried about upgrading

01:15:34   double-check before you just go and hit update and software update but

01:15:37   Or maybe you know make your own zip archives of the old ones just in case but I've been told that they keep them around

01:15:44   Okay, I still have them on my iMac so I can do that if I need to but you know, okay

01:15:49   That's good to know. Yeah, and I mean to answer your your broader question, I guess

01:15:54   it's hard to tell people don't become dependent

01:15:57   on Apple's productivity tools

01:16:00   because that's the whole point they exist, right,

01:16:02   is so that you would depend on them.

01:16:04   So I don't know, it's tricky.

01:16:08   - Right, and I think people who are accusing Apple

01:16:11   of not being aware, like AppleScript,

01:16:14   and there's one that I use AppleScript way more,

01:16:17   certainly more than 99.99% of Mac users.

01:16:20   I mean, so I definitely understand the pain.

01:16:22   I don't happen to have any scripts that drive the iWork apps,

01:16:26   but I could certainly imagine it.

01:16:30   And I sympathize with that.

01:16:31   But I also see exactly how that did not

01:16:33   rise to the level of feature that Apple

01:16:37   got into these initial events, initial versions of them.

01:16:41   And I think that the thing not to think about--

01:16:44   or the thing that's wrong is to think that the managers

01:16:49   And yet even the engineers on the iWork team are somehow like unaware that anybody was

01:16:55   using AppleScript or that there would be anybody who'd be disappointed by taking out.

01:16:59   I mean, they know it better than anybody, but you have to have priorities.

01:17:04   That's really what it comes down to.

01:17:06   And, you know, and it really matters what your highest priority, you know, your – what

01:17:10   the difference between your first priority and your second priority can often have dramatic

01:17:15   differences than if they were turned around.

01:17:17   And it's clear that Apple's number one priority here

01:17:20   was cross-platform parity for iPhone, iPad, web, and Mac.

01:17:25   And all the things that people are complaining about,

01:17:28   I think, are fallout from that number one priority.

01:17:32   And the thing that I also think they're not

01:17:35   getting enough credit for is, to my knowledge,

01:17:38   there's not a single other Office suite--

01:17:41   not Microsoft's, not Google's, certainly not OpenOffice--

01:17:46   that can say it's feature compatible, document compatible

01:17:51   on phone, tablet, web app, and desktop.

01:17:56   - And you probably said this before,

01:18:00   but this is arguably what defines Apple,

01:18:02   is that they're willing to make that jump.

01:18:06   Can you imagine Microsoft stripping out

01:18:09   half the features in Word

01:18:11   and having the stones to stick with it?

01:18:15   - Right, it would be impossible,

01:18:16   because they've spent so long.

01:18:19   I mean, I would venture to say the entire life of Microsoft

01:18:23   or certainly the entire life that almost 99.9% people

01:18:27   even heard of Microsoft with functionality,

01:18:31   features being their highest priority,

01:18:34   the most features, having the most features,

01:18:37   having the most backwards compatible features,

01:18:40   where each iterative version going forward

01:18:44   carries over all of the functionality

01:18:46   of the previous versions, additional complexity be damned.

01:18:50   I mean, that's been their priority.

01:18:53   And it would be almost--

01:18:54   - Whereas I could see Apple saying,

01:18:56   okay, how are the next 500 million iWork users

01:18:59   gonna do this?

01:19:00   And the answer is probably across multiple iOS devices

01:19:04   and maybe fewer Macs and focus on them.

01:19:09   And maybe you argue at some point

01:19:11   and maybe make a separate, a third tier between iWork

01:19:16   and I don't know.

01:19:19   Yeah, but that's even more complexity, that's dumb.

01:19:22   - For years, I think 2010, 2011 in particular

01:19:27   it seemed like was maybe peak fear

01:19:30   that Apple was going to abandon the Mac

01:19:33   or force a migration from the Mac to iOS.

01:19:36   And I feel like in 2012, and especially I think 2013,

01:19:41   Apple has really shown that it is committed to the Mac.

01:19:45   Just everything, hardware like the Mac Pro,

01:19:47   which is totally new, cutting edge,

01:19:49   I think they're continued industry leading MacBooks.

01:19:54   I've shown that on the hardware side

01:19:57   and with now annual revisions to Mac OS X

01:20:01   or I guess as it's renamed now OS X,

01:20:04   they're committed to it.

01:20:06   And I think it's alleviated those fears

01:20:08   that they were going to abandon the Mac

01:20:10   or just force everybody to use iOS.

01:20:13   But I do think, I mean, nobody can deny it,

01:20:15   that iOS trumps macOS.

01:20:20   I mean, and iOS devices trump Macs for Apple.

01:20:23   They're bigger financially and they have more users.

01:20:26   And so you--

01:20:27   - And they're growing, whereas the Mac has,

01:20:30   almost all likelihood, peaked forever in terms of sales.

01:20:33   And I wrote about this, I think, nine months ago,

01:20:36   and we'll see again.

01:20:36   I mean, I don't think we're gonna see Mac growth ever again.

01:20:40   But it's totally fair to be disappointed as a Mac user in the new iWork apps.

01:20:45   Absolutely.

01:20:46   But I think it's foolish to be surprised, especially since that number one priority,

01:20:53   achieving parity, is for the benefit of the iOS devices for the iPhone and iOS.

01:21:01   Yeah.

01:21:04   Yeah, and again, I mean, I don't know exactly what's not working for some people.

01:21:09   and I certainly feel for them, but so far I haven't,

01:21:13   in my selfish point of view, everything still works.

01:21:17   So all good there, we'll see.

01:21:21   - It works for Dan Fromer.

01:21:22   - Yep. (laughs)

01:21:24   - Good enough, ship it.

01:21:25   - Right.

01:21:27   - Well, that feels like a show.

01:21:30   I had a couple other things to talk about,

01:21:31   but I feel like, why don't we call it a wrap?

01:21:34   What do you think?

01:21:34   - Okay, yeah, it works for me.

01:21:36   - Can I tell you what--

01:21:37   - Tell me what they were, yeah.

01:21:38   - I'll tell you what was on the list,

01:21:39   and we'll see if we go into overtime.

01:21:41   We go into overtime maybe.

01:21:42   I had two other things.

01:21:43   I had the banner ads Google's been starting to tinker with

01:21:47   in search results.

01:21:48   And the BBM for iPhone and Android.

01:21:53   - I think the ads thing is interesting

01:21:57   because we could also mention the Instagram ads.

01:22:00   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:01   They just showed them for the first time today, right?

01:22:04   - Yeah.

01:22:05   - All right, well let's talk about that a little.

01:22:07   - Sure.

01:22:08   make of the big banner ads that they're tinkering with in search results? Looks like the easiest

01:22:13   way to get one is to search for flights. And it's like if you search for Southwest flights,

01:22:17   you get a big Southwest ad. And I think Virgin America has one now too.

01:22:22   And we're talking about Google. Google search. Yeah. I don't hate them. Now, part of this

01:22:27   is, is my natural bias. I grew up in a advertising household. My dad owned a very small ad agency.

01:22:35   so we would actually have to watch the commercials on TV

01:22:38   and not leave the room or hit the mute button

01:22:42   or something like that.

01:22:43   I don't mind them.

01:22:45   I think that if you're Southwest Airlines

01:22:48   and people search Southwest Airlines,

01:22:50   they're looking for you, so might as well own that page.

01:22:54   And if it costs you a little bit

01:22:57   to add a photo of your plane, I'm okay with that.

01:23:01   Most of the time, I'm not gonna see that page anyway

01:23:04   because Google is gonna auto-complete

01:23:06   or even take you straight to the URL in Chrome.

01:23:09   - I think I have a reputation

01:23:12   as sort of being knee-jerk anti-Google.

01:23:14   And I'll tell you, I'm with you.

01:23:15   I actually don't have a problem.

01:23:18   I think it's curious because they sort of,

01:23:23   not even sort of, explicitly came out and said years ago

01:23:26   that they would never have banner ads and search results.

01:23:29   It was back in the Marissa Meyer era

01:23:32   when she was in charge.

01:23:34   - But they would also never make a phone either, right?

01:23:36   Things change.

01:23:37   In my 10 list of complaints

01:23:42   against internet advertising right now,

01:23:44   that's not even close to being on that 10 list.

01:23:46   If anything, what drives me crazy

01:23:48   are the pop-up ads I'm seeing again.

01:23:50   I feel like it's 1998 and there's an X10 wireless camera ad

01:23:55   popping in my face or something like that.

01:23:57   That bothers me.

01:23:58   Google if Google can make money from from Spirit Airlines or whatever because

01:24:03   they want to put their logo on the search results page for Spirit Airlines

01:24:07   that I never see anyway go for it have fun and isn't it to me there's almost a

01:24:12   sort of integrity to the fact that if something you type a search query and

01:24:18   hit return and results come in and if something is a sponsored result it is

01:24:25   almost an integrity to making it look more like an ad rather than, you know, some of

01:24:30   the games that they've played over the years. And they've always, again, you know, I think

01:24:34   coming from me, you know, saying that, you know, Google search has always been a product

01:24:39   that, and I know that they've played some games with favoring their own products and

01:24:43   services over competitors and you can get into competitive arguments about that. But

01:24:47   in general, it's, you know, it's one of the great triumphs of the modern world. I mean,

01:24:53   It's the foundation upon which the entire Google empire is based and deservedly so.

01:24:59   It's one of the most amazing things in the world.

01:25:01   And if you could take a time traveler from any period, 25 years ago, 50 years ago, 100

01:25:08   years ago, Google search is one of the things you would show them about the modern world.

01:25:13   That you do this thing and you type on this keyboard and you get, you know, you can ask

01:25:17   anything and get answers.

01:25:18   It's amazing.

01:25:21   I think that some of the things they've done in the past to show that indicate that a result

01:25:26   is sponsored have been subtle enough that you could argue that that lacks integrity,

01:25:33   but just putting a gentle shading, you know, a little yellow or a pink or something like

01:25:37   that in a small gray, light gray type that says sponsored post or sponsored result very,

01:25:45   very quietly, is almost worse than making a big graphical banner ad. Because there it

01:25:51   says, you know, those things look like ads. It's like, hey, that's an ad. And it's one

01:25:55   ad. And it's not gratuitous. And hopefully it is, like you said, it's what you were looking

01:26:00   for. So I kind of feel like it's not worth criticism. It's an interesting direction,

01:26:06   though.

01:26:07   Right. And you know, and it's easy to say, aha, you're doing the thing you said you'd

01:26:11   never do. But that happens all the time. Companies change. They have to. And I guess that the

01:26:18   thing for me that's most important is that integrity. If it's the advertiser I'm expecting,

01:26:24   go for it. Whatever. If it's a deep, deep discount, airsearch.net, buying up the Southwest

01:26:34   Airlines page and tricking me into clicking and going somewhere else, maybe that's a bigger

01:26:39   problem. But it seems that they're not doing that.

01:26:41   At least not at this stage.

01:26:42   It's also worth putting into context what no banner ads meant, let's say in 2005.

01:26:49   Because 2005, eight years ago, that's a long time, and Google was still a very young company.

01:26:56   I don't forget when their IPO was, but it wasn't that long before that.

01:27:02   And even pre-IPO, the pre-Google world was still in recent memory.

01:27:10   pre Google what did banner ads on search engines mean well it was like those

01:27:15   remember the punch the monkey oh yeah I mean it was tree loot right it was

01:27:19   garbage all that stuff it was real garbage and whereas you know this is not

01:27:25   I don't I don't feel like this is a devaluation of Google search I do think

01:27:32   it's an interesting angle to wonder what's driving them to do this though is

01:27:36   Is it just a pursuit of more profit?

01:27:39   Or is it the fact that desktop search is either stagnant

01:27:44   or in decline and they need to get more out of each search

01:27:49   to maintain the levels that they've had before?

01:27:53   That's an interesting question to me is what does this mean?

01:27:57   What's driving them to do this?

01:27:59   - Yes, and is it also the need to make more money

01:28:02   off of desktop users because mobile users

01:28:06   aren't making as much money.

01:28:07   - Per search.

01:28:08   But yet more and more searches are going mobile.

01:28:13   And I can't help--

01:28:13   - And going through tools like Siri,

01:28:16   which don't even kind of start from the Google homepage.

01:28:20   Maybe not Siri because who uses Siri?

01:28:24   But stuff like that where search is a feature in an app

01:28:28   and not a destination necessarily.

01:28:31   - Right.

01:28:32   - And I think it dovetails, interestingly,

01:28:36   with the new Instagram ads,

01:28:38   which they just showed off this week,

01:28:41   and I believe TechCrunch had kind of a gallery of them.

01:28:44   And again, I don't hate them.

01:28:47   I mean, I follow a bunch of companies already on Instagram.

01:28:50   I think they're some of the best people I follow.

01:28:53   To me, a nice photo of camping or something

01:28:59   from an outdoor gear brand is actually often nicer

01:29:02   to look at than someone's kid.

01:29:04   So I follow a bunch of brands already,

01:29:07   and if they, as long as the ads kind of follow

01:29:11   the theory of Instagram, which is that it's people

01:29:16   shooting pictures with their phones

01:29:17   and not stupid stock photos and pre-produced junkie ads,

01:29:22   then I think that's great.

01:29:24   I'm very happy for the service that I spend

01:29:28   a lot of time using to make money somehow.

01:29:31   And if they can get brands like there was a GE one

01:29:34   that had a cool picture of an airplane engine.

01:29:36   Like if they can get GE posting that and get paid for that,

01:29:40   that sounds great as long as it's not some garbage,

01:29:43   almost these are like better than a lot of TV ads,

01:29:49   which is still where all the money is.

01:29:50   But you watch TV ads and you're like,

01:29:53   these are insultingly stupid.

01:29:55   But if Instagram can get money for an elegant ad,

01:29:58   if there's a fashion show and some guy

01:30:02   who works for that company has their iPhone

01:30:04   and they're shooting photos and they want me to see it

01:30:07   and they wanna pay Instagram to promote that into my feed

01:30:10   and it looks good, yeah, that sounds okay.

01:30:13   - Even, it's very rare that you're watching TV

01:30:15   and the commercial is better than what it is,

01:30:17   the show that you're watching.

01:30:19   Sometimes you see a great commercial and it is.

01:30:21   It elevates, you know, the art.

01:30:23   It's, you know, a little 30 second dose of cinema

01:30:26   and it's, you actually enjoy it, but it's rare.

01:30:30   Whereas, you know, I feel like you said, you know,

01:30:32   these Instagram ads seem like they're actual instances

01:30:36   of what it is that Instagram is, a cool photo.

01:30:40   My only concern with them, my one and only concern

01:30:42   is that the examples I've seen so far,

01:30:44   it seems like they allow way too much text under the image.

01:30:49   I feel like you should, the rules should be tightened up

01:30:51   and they should really just be a very tight amount of text

01:30:55   and you know, some kind, give them a URL,

01:30:57   repeat, you can learn more.

01:30:59   - Which you can't do right now

01:31:01   and that's an interesting thing.

01:31:01   I wonder if they will allow advertisers

01:31:04   to be the first ones to put clickable URLs in their texts

01:31:07   'cause right now there's no way,

01:31:09   like if you look at some brands

01:31:11   like do contests on Instagram and they're like,

01:31:13   go to our profile and click our profile URL to do that

01:31:16   and that's awkward, you know,

01:31:18   As a person who has a company who I would possibly

01:31:23   buy Instagram ads someday,

01:31:25   I'd much rather be able to put a URL in.

01:31:27   - I understand why they don't allow clickable URLs,

01:31:29   'cause it would allow people to do spam,

01:31:32   or some, you know, and people posting.

01:31:34   But I could see them doing it,

01:31:37   it would be reasonable for me,

01:31:38   I would see it as reasonable if only advertisers

01:31:40   got to put clickable, tappable URLs, I should say,

01:31:43   in their thing. - Yeah.

01:31:44   - But then to reduce the text,

01:31:46   because the cool pictures fit right into your Instagram feed.

01:31:51   The big chunks of text don't.

01:31:54   It's the text that sticks out as you scroll

01:31:57   rather than the images.

01:31:59   - Yeah, NPR has been doing this thing

01:32:01   where they're doing some contest or something

01:32:03   and they have like four paragraphs of text

01:32:06   and I think I unfollowed them for it.

01:32:09   - The New Yorker has a cool Instagram feed

01:32:12   and they hire different photographers

01:32:15   take over it for like a week at a time and you know sometimes they'll go to an

01:32:18   event or they're you know they're working alongside a reporter doing a

01:32:22   story somewhere and they I don't know why but that and it just seems so

01:32:28   completely un-New York-ery but they often put like 20 or 30 hashtags and it

01:32:33   just makes it look it just looks awful but they're great photographers they are

01:32:37   seriously like world-class photographers and you know when they're shooting with

01:32:43   with the, and they're posting with pictures taken

01:32:44   from the iPhone, I'm like, you know,

01:32:47   I've really gotta up my game because I cannot blame the tool

01:32:49   this guy, they could do great photos,

01:32:51   but the big chunks of ugly hashtags really do

01:32:55   always make my finger hover over and unfollow.

01:32:58   - I've never understood that.

01:33:00   I think that has to come from some app

01:33:02   because someone really manually going in

01:33:04   and tapping in like InstaGood, InstaMorning,

01:33:08   like all these just ridiculous dumb hashtags every time.

01:33:12   - I don't know.

01:33:13   - I think it might come from some app, but I don't know.

01:33:16   I agree, and if you look at a lot of the ad samples,

01:33:19   again, in that TechCrunch article,

01:33:20   there are a lot of hashtags.

01:33:22   - I don't get it, and I never tap hashtags,

01:33:27   and I guess that's something, 'cause you can tap a hashtag,

01:33:30   and it puts something tappable in the ad,

01:33:32   but if there was an option in Instagram

01:33:34   to just strip hashtags out, I would do it,

01:33:37   'cause I never tap them,

01:33:38   and it would only clean up my stream.

01:33:41   I use them kind of jokingly sometimes,

01:33:43   just literally spamming other people's comments.

01:33:46   But what kind of bums me out is that Instagram,

01:33:51   I respect their desire to keep the product

01:33:54   as simple as possible.

01:33:56   That's how I hope to develop my app too.

01:33:59   But there are some things that are missing still

01:34:03   that kind of bug me, like the inability to search

01:34:06   for pictures of a location.

01:34:10   Seeing the location field in someone's Instagram

01:34:14   and then tapping that location,

01:34:16   like a national park or a store or something,

01:34:18   there's often really, really great collections

01:34:21   of photos in there,

01:34:22   but there's no way to kind of seek those out.

01:34:25   You can't search. - Right, you have to find one.

01:34:27   - You can search for usernames, yeah.

01:34:29   And like, one of my friends was in Portofino, Italy,

01:34:34   once, and posted some picture from the beach,

01:34:37   and if you tap that location,

01:34:39   It's all like Russians on yachts in bikinis.

01:34:43   It's really funny.

01:34:44   It's like, but there's no way to go back to that.

01:34:46   You gotta go.

01:34:47   And stuff like that.

01:34:48   And another one is you can't log in on multiple accounts,

01:34:53   which for most people is not a problem.

01:34:57   And I totally respect the designing a product

01:34:59   around most of your users.

01:35:01   But especially as they're trying to cater to brands,

01:35:04   I have a friend who runs three restaurants and a magazine,

01:35:08   and she still has to manually log in and log out

01:35:10   and type in the password every time she wants to post

01:35:13   something from one of those different accounts.

01:35:15   - Sounds like somebody needs a day phone and a night phone.

01:35:19   - Right?

01:35:21   So I don't know.

01:35:23   But I love the simplicity of Instagram.

01:35:27   I maybe don't use it as much as I used to for some stuff.

01:35:31   It really bugs me that they don't post the pictures

01:35:35   to the Twitter stream anymore,

01:35:36   especially as Twitter starts testing things

01:35:39   like putting the pictures in line.

01:35:41   I still use the official Twitter app

01:35:45   and I was in a UI test group a few weeks ago

01:35:48   where every picture showed up in line in my stream

01:35:51   and I really liked it.

01:35:53   And I think that's kind of what they're gonna switch to

01:35:55   at some point.

01:35:55   But it does bum me out that Instagram's

01:35:58   not in the stream anymore.

01:36:00   But maybe now with ads they'll do it again, I don't know.

01:36:06   I think bottom line is that this concept for ads in Instagram, to me, is if not identical,

01:36:16   it is nearly so to what Instagram would have done eventually if they had remained wholly

01:36:23   independent.

01:36:24   You know, because if they had remained independent, eventually they had to have some kind of revenue.

01:36:29   I think this would have been it.

01:36:30   So I don't think it is, it to me allays some of the fears that I've had at least and a

01:36:39   lot of others from when Facebook bought them that they were going to get a lot more Facebooky

01:36:43   and go that route for revenue.

01:36:47   And to me this is, I wouldn't be surprised if this has been in the plans since before

01:36:53   they were acquired.

01:36:54   I mean it doesn't seem, it really doesn't seem, even to date it really doesn't seem

01:36:58   like Instagram has changed in any way, even now with this proposed advertising, in a Facebookian

01:37:06   fashion, to put it that way.

01:37:09   They almost feel more still like they belong with Twitter more than with Facebook.

01:37:14   But maybe that's good for Facebook.

01:37:15   Yeah, and I think it's exactly why they bought them.

01:37:18   And I think the bottom line of why did they buy Instagram was that Zuckerberg regretted

01:37:25   And there were those, you know, a couple of stories in the last couple of weeks, like

01:37:28   Nick Bilton's excerpt from his book and the great New Yorker profile of Jack Dorsey.

01:37:36   You know, I don't even think it was a surprise though, but more details than were known before

01:37:39   that, you know, that Zuckerberg did seriously consider buying Twitter years ago didn't work

01:37:45   out and it only got bigger.

01:37:48   And I feel like, you know, I feel like it made him all the more determined when he,

01:37:52   you know, saw that Instagram was very Twitter-like to not let that pass.

01:37:59   I do think so.

01:38:00   Absolutely think that Instagram remains a lot more like Twitter than it is like Facebook.

01:38:06   And, you know, I would say I'm still impressed with how many people are posting to it.

01:38:11   Like I don't know if the people who posted a lot in the early days that I followed are

01:38:16   posting as much, but every time I fire up Instagram, I don't even follow that many

01:38:21   people, especially on the weekends, there's new stuff to look at. And it's still mostly

01:38:25   pretty good.

01:38:26   I'm always surprised by how many people I see out in the real world Instagramming.

01:38:29   Oh, yeah.

01:38:30   And like sporting events, you know, like, over the summer when I went to some baseball

01:38:34   games and went to Disney World and stuff like that. And I, you know, it's such a distinctive

01:38:40   UI, you know, and that the blue and the big camera button at the bottom or it's, you know,

01:38:45   you don't have to be like a eavesdropper, you can just, you know, just eyeball somebody's

01:38:49   screen. When you're taking a photo, you're holding it out in front. It's really easy

01:38:54   to see. But I could see people, I still do, I see it all the time, people taking pictures

01:38:59   with their phone who are clearly taking it in Instagram. It's definitely got real normal

01:39:08   person traction.

01:39:11   And has completely ruined all expectations from VCs for how an app should grow. But that's

01:39:18   - It's a different topic.

01:39:19   - That was pretty amazing.

01:39:23   - Cool.

01:39:25   - All right.

01:39:26   Good show.

01:39:29   Dan Fromer.

01:39:29   Give him a URL.

01:39:31   Should we send him to City Notes?

01:39:34   - Send him to our brand new, very proud Twitter account,

01:39:38   which is City Notes.

01:39:40   We finally got it.

01:39:41   - Oh, nice.

01:39:42   - Yeah.

01:39:43   - So just go to twitter.com/citynotes.

01:39:47   Follow us there, we got some cool new stuff coming

01:39:50   later this year, which we're very excited about,

01:39:53   and you can kinda follow us there and get it when it's new.

01:39:57   - Did you hear me typing right there

01:39:59   on my loud clicky-clack keyboard?

01:40:00   That's me going there, here I am right now,

01:40:02   clicking, follow.

01:40:04   - Boom.

01:40:05   - Followed right now.

01:40:06   - Yeah, it's a very low volume stream for now.

01:40:09   It's never gonna be very high volume,

01:40:11   but good stuff coming.

01:40:14   - All right, thanks, Dan.