The Talk Show

146: ‘“They Might Be Giants” With a Spanish Accent’ With Special Guests Eddy Cue and Craig Federighi


00:00:00   Ladies and gentlemen, your pal John Gruber here.

00:00:04   This is a very special episode of the talk show.

00:00:06   It is a different episode of the talk show as you're about to find out.

00:00:09   And so it has a different kind of sponsorship set up.

00:00:12   I'm just going to tell you right here, this episode is exclusively brought to you by Meh.com.

00:00:19   That's Meh.com.

00:00:21   If you don't know what's Meh, it's a daily deal site.

00:00:24   You guys remember Woot, W-O-O-T?

00:00:26   That was a daily deal site where they put funny content and videos and stuff like that

00:00:30   up and they'd have one thing a day that they would sell at an extraordinary discount.

00:00:34   Then they sold to Amazon.

00:00:35   That was Woot.

00:00:36   They sold to Amazon and Amazon started changing everything around and eventually got rid of

00:00:40   everything about Woot that made Woot Woot.

00:00:42   So the team laughed.

00:00:43   They left Amazon when they could and they started a new site that was like Woot except

00:00:48   even better than it used to be.

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00:00:51   It's the guys behind Woot.

00:00:52   They have a new site, Meh, and you go there every day and they have a daily deal.

00:00:56   Something is on sale at an extraordinary discount, like a G.

00:01:00   I wonder if they like rip these off the back of a truck sort of discount.

00:01:03   Gadgets, oftentimes, toys, stuff like that.

00:01:07   But the main reason to go there, it's not even to find the discount.

00:01:09   It's not a shopping site.

00:01:10   It's one thing a day that's available at a limited time.

00:01:13   The reason to go to Meh.com every day are the videos that they make,

00:01:17   the descriptions that they write that are hilarious,

00:01:20   sometimes not even about the product at all.

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00:01:43   who are bringing you today's episode.

00:01:46   And without any further ado,

00:01:48   Ladies and gentlemen, the talk show.

00:01:51   This is gonna be fun.

00:01:52   We've got Eddie Q, senior vice president,

00:01:56   internet, software and services.

00:01:57   Eddie, welcome to the talk show.

00:01:59   - How you doing?

00:02:01   - And returning to the talk show,

00:02:02   which is, must mean I didn't botch it up too badly.

00:02:06   Craig Federighi, senior vice president

00:02:08   of software engineering.

00:02:10   - It's a rare honor to be here, John.

00:02:13   - Here's my question.

00:02:14   This is a tough one.

00:02:15   I wanna know it now.

00:02:17   Eddie, you're a big sports fan.

00:02:18   Has Steve Dowling sent you to like photography school for like taking

00:02:23   pictures after sporting events now post Super Bowl? You know I love that because

00:02:28   you may know Tim and I went to the Super Bowl together and he's a huge Broncos

00:02:33   fan huge huge Broncos fan and so when they won the game we were all excited

00:02:39   we got high-fiving each other we went onto the field he's taking the photos

00:02:42   and he's so excited he wanted to congratulate him and sent the picture

00:02:45   And then the next morning I wake up and I get to see all of those

00:02:48   Messages and tweets and everything else and I thought it was great

00:02:52   Because it's it shows you know

00:02:54   Tim is just like you and me

00:02:56   He's a huge sports fan and was loving it and he loved that his team actually won the Super Bowl. I

00:03:01   said this I

00:03:04   I just thought it was that's exactly what I thought

00:03:07   I thought it was like Tim Tim as a human being and it's a real sports fans photo. I thought it was goofy, but I

00:03:14   Thought it was gooey the reaction that people had to me. It was just a happy moment. All right

00:03:17   I'm hoping I'm hoping to have a few more for you this year

00:03:20   Maybe another repeat for the Warriors repeat Duke national championship, you know, well that so I don't know about the Duke one

00:03:26   I wasn't gonna mention Duke Eddie. No. No, I was look I've been

00:03:30   We've been wanting to talk to you for like three weeks, but I told I told Dallin

00:03:34   There's no way I'm gonna talk to John right now because we've been losing games straight

00:03:38   So I waited till we've won the last we've won the last like two games in a row

00:03:42   We're hot and I'm like, let's get on the call now

00:03:44   No, my my last sports related suggestion to you is just in case the Warriors keep it up and just in case, you know

00:03:52   Maybe WWDC sticks to the typical schedule

00:03:54   Maybe you want to rehearse more and if you have extra tickets for a Warriors Finals game

00:03:59   I know a guy, you know, maybe you could take them off your hands just saying just

00:04:03   You're on

00:04:08   Let's let's get down to brass tacks here one of the things one of the reasons that this is even happening is

00:04:14   that Apple is

00:04:16   talking about and and telling its users a lot more about what is

00:04:23   coming down the pipeline in

00:04:26   Software so for I mean and the best example of that is is that there's a big it's not even like a developer page

00:04:31   It's a big product marketing page on what's coming in

00:04:34   iOS 9.3

00:04:37   Yeah. Yeah, we have a real feature release here with 9.3.

00:04:44   And so we certainly wanted to talk about it.

00:04:46   And we also wanted to get it out in public seeds.

00:04:49   So many of you are running it.

00:04:52   Certainly all of us here are.

00:04:55   And there's a lot of really cool stuff we were able to do.

00:04:58   And we didn't want to wait all the way till WWDC to get it out.

00:05:02   is so I I'm not imagining things that this is a

00:05:06   At least a subtle change away from keeping features as a sort of

00:05:13   major, you know new features that you want to promote and in the OS as a

00:05:18   Monolithic once a year at WWDC will announce them and once a year a couple months later in the fall

00:05:26   We'll release them sort of schedule

00:05:30   Yeah, you know a huge part of what we do with with iOS every year is we're really advancing a platform for developers

00:05:37   And you really can't sort of trickle out a big change for developers at the platform level

00:05:43   continuously throughout the year, so that's something where it makes a ton of sense for us to

00:05:48   Advance it all at once have a conference

00:05:50   Get everyone early access to the SDKs that they're going to use give them a chance to get their apps

00:05:57   ready and take advantage of all the new capabilities and then get it out with a major OS.

00:06:02   But there are things that we can do that don't have that characteristic.

00:06:06   You know, and if you look at the kind of features coming in 9.3 with our support for education and, you know,

00:06:12   shared use iPads and the classroom app or the night shift feature,

00:06:16   or, you know, some of the improvements we made to

00:06:20   photos or even the smart keyboard handling on the iPad Pro.

00:06:24   So these are things that we wanted to get out right away

00:06:28   to everyone 'cause we think everyone can enjoy them

00:06:30   and they aren't the kind of things

00:06:31   that really impact moving the platform forward

00:06:33   for developers.

00:06:35   - Right, it's not really developer changes,

00:06:37   but it is, they're definitely major features.

00:06:40   One of my favorites is for the smart keyboard

00:06:42   that when you'd go to Spotlight Search,

00:06:44   you can arrow key down to the search results.

00:06:49   - Yeah, I know you did helpfully note for us

00:06:52   shortly after we shipped the iPad Pro that we missed one there.

00:06:56   So it's been great to miss more than one, let me say.

00:07:00   And so we've been responding to all the kind of great feedback we've gotten on the iPad

00:07:04   Pro, which we're all excited about the device and so excited about how people have really

00:07:08   embraced it.

00:07:09   But we all have our – as we all use it more deeply, we're all seeing things where we

00:07:15   can improve a bunch of things, including the keyboard support.

00:07:17   So we've taken this opportunity in 9.3 to make some of those enhancements.

00:07:21   So that is an interesting thing.

00:07:26   So one of the things is you guys actually are all, and I say,

00:07:29   not just you like Craig and Eddie,

00:07:31   but everybody on the executive leadership team, in addition to having,

00:07:36   you know, these jobs that are very specific in terms of your responsibilities,

00:07:39   you're also users of the products that Apple makes.

00:07:44   Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, I mean,

00:07:47   Well, that's why we're here for sure.

00:07:50   I mean, no one was more enthusiastic to get access to the inside of Apple and software

00:07:56   than myself and Eddie.

00:07:58   And certainly, you know, I am installing, I think I probably install something like 500 versions.

00:08:05   I mean, literally it's 500 or a thousand versions of OS X and iOS myself every year.

00:08:10   I mean, I have, you know, four Macs and four iPads and two phones and I upgrade them all

00:08:16   to the newest build pretty much every day.

00:08:19   So I don't know, I think I did the math wrong.

00:08:21   I think it's like 100,000 versions of OS X

00:08:23   and OIOS I install every year.

00:08:26   John, I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

00:08:30   You know, the way I started with this was bringing my Mac

00:08:33   into the office for my first job.

00:08:36   And so working on the Mac for me was like a dream come true.

00:08:40   So I live on our products every day.

00:08:43   I use all of our products every day.

00:08:44   They're, they're part of my life, my kids, my family. And so it's, it's great.

00:08:48   And we share that experience and we give each other feedback and we, uh, you know,

00:08:53   we, we, it's, it's what we do.

00:08:55   But so like you like Eddie, like you, when you get like a,

00:09:00   a new Mac book pro or whatever you're going to use, you know,

00:09:04   but you set it up yourself.

00:09:05   Oh, absolutely. My, my, my, first of all,

00:09:09   hopefully everyone can set it up themselves because that's what we build it for.

00:09:12   And it's really easy.

00:09:14   I set it up.

00:09:15   I, I transfer my content from my old Mac book or I just did a new iMac.

00:09:20   As a matter of fact, I actually bought it myself.

00:09:21   I bought, I went on the online store.

00:09:23   I wanted to see what the experience was.

00:09:25   I ordered it, checked all the mail.

00:09:27   I wanted to see the mail, the notifications that came to my phone and then installed it all.

00:09:31   Yeah.

00:09:32   And I mean, no, no joke at ease.

00:09:33   Seriously.

00:09:34   Most meetings I'm in with Eddie at some point in the meeting, he breaks out one of his devices and starts upgrading it mid meeting.

00:09:39   And then we're able to get on the fly feedback on the new software during the meeting.

00:09:43   So it's very helpful.

00:09:46   I know it sounds like a trivial question, but it's something I've always wanted to ask

00:09:50   people like you, because I can see it both ways, where I know you guys are technically

00:09:54   adept and have the background to do it.

00:09:58   But on the other hand, as the senior vice president of a semi-large corporation, you

00:10:04   don't have to.

00:10:05   If you wanted to have somebody set up your stuff for you, you could do it.

00:10:08   So it's always been curious to me

00:10:09   whether you guys go through it

00:10:11   because you want to get that,

00:10:12   like what's it like to be a real user experience

00:10:15   or do you take advantage of it,

00:10:18   the fact that you don't have to if you don't want to?

00:10:20   - Oh yeah, and it's not just that.

00:10:22   I mean, we're both involved every day

00:10:26   in the development of the software

00:10:28   that's being put together.

00:10:30   And so we all wanna run the latest thing

00:10:33   that we were just in a HAI review talking about.

00:10:35   We wanna get that feature

00:10:37   that we talked about last week and start living on it

00:10:40   so we can start giving the team feedback

00:10:42   on what we're seeing.

00:10:44   And so it's an integral part of how we develop here

00:10:48   is that we all live on the software.

00:10:51   And at the same time, I mean, probably like yourself,

00:10:53   and we're all the tech support teams for our families

00:10:56   and our parents and our in-laws.

00:10:59   And so I have all my kids are running the betas all the time

00:11:03   so we get live feedback, helpful feedback

00:11:07   from the whole family nonstop.

00:11:08   We're immersed in the Apple universe of feedback.

00:11:12   - John, let me give you an example of something,

00:11:15   'cause this happens all the time for me.

00:11:17   I'm using our products.

00:11:17   So this weekend I was using Apple TV.

00:11:19   I've got the new Apple TV.

00:11:20   And by the way, which we should talk about,

00:11:22   there's a lot of great new features coming out with this.

00:11:25   This is a major release of Apple TV.

00:11:27   But I'm doing a purchase of a movie

00:11:31   and I've got a family plan, Apple Music,

00:11:34   the whole thing with everybody.

00:11:35   And the message that comes up on the screen says,

00:11:38   somebody from your family has already purchased this.

00:11:41   Would you like to buy it again?

00:11:43   Pretty dumb message.

00:11:46   And so it's an example of I got on there and it's like,

00:11:50   I'm talking to my team, why are we doing it this way?

00:11:52   And it's just a history thing of before there was family

00:11:54   plan, it would ask you that question,

00:11:56   'cause it was a single user.

00:11:57   Once you have a family plan, it should just download.

00:12:00   It shouldn't even bother to ask you.

00:12:02   And so, you know, we live both Craig and I,

00:12:05   and that's part of what we love doing.

00:12:06   And so it's great to be able to have an impact

00:12:09   and change these things, 'cause we're using them ourselves.

00:12:12   - Yeah, that's a perfect example.

00:12:15   One of the questions I wanted to ask you

00:12:16   is what was the last bug that you encountered yourself?

00:12:19   And that's a good one.

00:12:20   And it's an interesting explanation, right?

00:12:22   Just to clarify, what you're saying is,

00:12:24   it's saying that the person who's now in your family plan,

00:12:28   who made that purchase earlier,

00:12:30   made the purchase before there was a thing

00:12:31   called the family plan and therefore it did not automatically download.

00:12:34   No, it was just,

00:12:35   it wasn't what they did make the purchase and they were part of the family plan.

00:12:39   Originally when we were doing this, um,

00:12:41   there wasn't a thing as family plan.

00:12:44   And so it was designed just to ask you if you wanted to purchase again,

00:12:47   when we did this software for family plan, we didn't take into account that we

00:12:51   just said, Oh, somebody already purchased it.

00:12:53   And instead of just downloading it, we didn't do that.

00:12:55   But I want to give you, since you said,

00:12:56   I want to give you a little to tell you a little bit how crazy Craig and I are,

00:13:00   about this stuff and you said what's the latest because it just reminded me of this. I was

00:13:06   installing a new version of OS X on my iMac. It's a non-release version a couple of days ago and I

00:13:13   ran into a problem that I couldn't, I knew would be very difficult to recreate and this is about

00:13:18   7 30 at night. I had just gotten home doing the update and I called Craig up and I said here's

00:13:24   the problem that I've got. I was leaving the next day to Yuma, Arizona by the way. I want to give a

00:13:28   shout out to the kids and teachers out in Yuma, Arizona that are using iPads.

00:13:34   But I called Craig up, told him about the problem, and I said, "Look, I'm leaving

00:13:37   tomorrow." I said, "I want you guys to kind of look at this because I think this is

00:13:41   kind of weird. I don't think it's gonna be easy to recreate." He says, "Sure." So I

00:13:44   took the iMac, put in my car, drove to Craig's house, gave him the iMac, came back

00:13:49   home, went on my trip. Craig is engineering. The engineer was looking at

00:13:52   it, figured it out, and the next day got the iMac back. So it was sort of like

00:13:58   preserving a crime scene. That's right except we found out at the end that no

00:14:04   crime was committed because we fixed it. Right but if you know if you have a bug

00:14:10   or just an edge case that you're worried you can't reproduce it's like you really

00:14:15   do just want to like freeze the computer right where it is and let the engineers

00:14:19   you know start debugging. Yeah absolutely and it was was helpful that Eddie was

00:14:25   was on the case on that one. That's a really great story though. I love that he just drops it off.

00:14:32   It's good to know people. But that's it is interesting. But it's that's exactly the sort

00:14:40   of question I had is how how involved do you guys get when you run into one of these little,

00:14:45   you know, it's inevitable. I mean, there's nobody has ever written bug free software. It's the nature

00:14:49   of software. But what do you guys do when you guys encounter it? And that's driving over to

00:14:55   Craig's house is the answer.

00:14:57   I like it.

00:14:57   (laughing)

00:14:59   So before we forget, let's go back and talk about

00:15:01   what's coming up in Apple TV.

00:15:03   So right now it's a beta, it's tvOS 9.2.

00:15:08   And there is a lot of, it really is a major feature.

00:15:12   Just off the top of my head.

00:15:14   Siri dictation for text entry and searching for apps.

00:15:18   That's something people started complaining about

00:15:20   as soon as the new Apple TV shipped.

00:15:23   That's a big one.

00:15:25   Yeah, it's huge. Look, when you get your Apple TV the first time,

00:15:29   the first thing you've got to do is enter your Apple ID and your password.

00:15:33   And being able to...you've got Siri built into this remote.

00:15:37   Why not just tell it and spell it out instead of having to, you know,

00:15:41   go through the typing mechanism of doing it?

00:15:43   And so we wanted to do that right from the beginning.

00:15:45   And then searching on the App Store, we added searching across movies, TV shows,

00:15:49   and Netflix and Hulu.

00:15:50   We've added a bunch of new content providers like FX.

00:15:54   You can search Disney Channel.

00:15:56   We're adding, we continue to add more,

00:15:57   but obviously the App Store is a huge one.

00:15:59   And so we've done that.

00:16:01   We've added some languages, Spanish, French to that.

00:16:06   And we've added iCloud photo library, full support

00:16:09   so you can see all of your photos.

00:16:11   And also, one of the things that you've noticed

00:16:13   if you've downloaded a lot of apps on the App Store,

00:16:15   from the App Store, having folders now.

00:16:18   So just like you have on iOS, you can add folders.

00:16:22   - Right, so you could just group together

00:16:24   all your little arcade games, put them in an arcade folder.

00:16:27   - That's right.

00:16:28   - Right.

00:16:29   What, can you tell me, I know this is from the list,

00:16:33   and this is how lazy I am at preparing

00:16:35   for a very important talk show.

00:16:37   One of the features is conference room display mode.

00:16:40   What is that?

00:16:42   - We had this in the original Apple TV,

00:16:44   and part of this is, if you know most conference rooms

00:16:48   from Wi-Fi connectivities into the networks,

00:16:50   You have people, you have private networks that are set up for the corporation, but then

00:16:55   somebody comes in to present and you don't really want to let them into your private

00:16:59   network from the company.

00:17:01   And so we had this capability and we wanted to add that to the Apple TV so that it would

00:17:06   be easy for people to come in and present.

00:17:09   We can also lock the display so that instead of showing you the latest top movies at the

00:17:14   beginning of every meeting, it can just tell you that you can airplay to it.

00:17:18   We all stay on top of all the top films here at Apple when we start every meeting

00:17:22   But now we have now we have an alternative. That's

00:17:24   So it's not it's really Siri wide. I mean and this affects every platform but

00:17:31   The expansion to include new languages obviously that is really super important to let's just say people who speak Spanish

00:17:39   It's really like a make-or-break feature. How how

00:17:46   difficult is that to do each language going, you know,

00:17:50   to keep adding languages to Siri

00:17:52   and to keep the level of quality of Siri's recognition.

00:17:57   - Yeah, we have over 35 languages in Siri.

00:18:00   Apple TV presents an actually an interesting problem

00:18:04   compared to just Siri itself in that

00:18:06   a lot of the things that you search for

00:18:08   are not in the native language you're speaking.

00:18:11   So you're actually, let's say speaking in Spanish,

00:18:13   but you're searching for an English title.

00:18:16   And so Siri has to be aware that it's actually able

00:18:20   to speak multiple languages because you wouldn't,

00:18:23   and understand when it is that it's asking for a title

00:18:27   versus when it is that you're actually giving a verb

00:18:30   or a noun to it from that.

00:18:31   And so it's an interesting, challenging problem,

00:18:34   which is why we've been adding languages to Siri.

00:18:36   We're not quite, to Apple TV, we're not quite up to the 35

00:18:38   that Siri has, but we'll keep adding on.

00:18:41   and it's supporting that multi-language aspect of Siri

00:18:44   that makes it even more fun for us to try to resolve.

00:18:48   - Yeah, our machine learning teams at Apple

00:18:52   and within the Siri team have done some remarkable work,

00:18:55   and I know you've noticed some of the improvements

00:18:57   to Siri's both performance and its ability to recognize,

00:19:00   but the core technology has improved so much

00:19:03   that it's really helped us get high accuracy

00:19:07   when we take on all of these new languages.

00:19:10   And some of these challenges, like now we have to know, not just that you're

00:19:13   speaking Spanish, but while you're speaking Spanish, you're talking about,

00:19:16   they might be giants, but you're pronouncing those words with a Spanish

00:19:19   accent and Siri needs to recognize that these are, these are the kinds of things

00:19:23   that, uh, you know, a few years ago were just out of reach and now we have the

00:19:26   core technology, uh, to do it.

00:19:28   And I think the experience with Siri is just taken some giant leaps forward.

00:19:32   By the way, and, uh, at a huge scale, uh, these are billions of requests

00:19:38   that come in every week.

00:19:39   uh... to siri

00:19:41   across all the platforms

00:19:45   so in addition to that here's another one that that's added to uh...

00:19:49   tv o_s_ nine point two is sort of the

00:19:52   old-school way of text entry bluetooth keyboard support

00:19:56   and it's a little thing but

00:19:59   it's one of those were things that where the old apple t_v_ supported it

00:20:03   including at setup so that you could set up like if you had the apple uh...

00:20:08   Magic keyboard you could you could connect to it and then the new Apple TV came out and it didn't have it and everybody

00:20:14   Was some people maybe were a little annoyed that everything they had to do with the new Apple TV in November was up down left

00:20:21   Right to you know enter everything

00:20:23   Is is this just an issue of?

00:20:26   Hey, it was a new version of tvOS all new it's you know integrating it with iOS

00:20:32   We just didn't get to it by November or was this like a rethink like hey a lot of people are asking us

00:20:38   for Bluetooth keyboard support?

00:20:39   Let's go back and put it back in.

00:20:41   That's a great question.

00:20:42   In that case, it was really simple.

00:20:43   We were doing the new OS, and it's

00:20:45   something we wanted to get to.

00:20:47   We knew it wasn't the majority of customers,

00:20:49   and so we felt like we could add it later.

00:20:51   And we always planned it.

00:20:52   And yes, I did get a few emails and a few tweets about it.

00:20:57   You know what's just hilarious about this, though,

00:20:59   is we have a very vocal community, as you know.

00:21:03   And when we were getting this feedback--

00:21:07   even actually before making the decision not to include it in the first release,

00:21:10   that the team had done the analysis based on our diagnostics and usage data of

00:21:14   you know, how, about how many customers use a Bluetooth keyboard with their,

00:21:17   with their Apple TV every week. And they charted it out over time.

00:21:21   And it's a, it's a, it's a small rate relative to the, you know,

00:21:24   how people are using the built-in remote and so forth.

00:21:27   But we noticed that that rate of use of the Bluetooth keyboard dropped to almost

00:21:31   nothing during WWDC.

00:21:34   And what this told us was pretty much everyone

00:21:37   who's using it as a developer who's going to WWDC

00:21:40   or an Apple employee.

00:21:41   Now that didn't stop all of them from writing Eddie

00:21:44   when it was missing, but just to give you a sense

00:21:46   of kind of what's going on underneath all that.

00:21:48   - That is hilarious.

00:21:52   'Cause I was going to say that I think it's a hard sell

00:21:57   across your family.

00:21:59   Like whether there's one person in the family

00:22:01   who's technically adept and wants to put

00:22:03   Bluetooth keyboard in the living room. I think it's a hard sell family-wide to

00:22:07   keep a keyboard in the living room. And we do have a little bit something even a

00:22:11   little bit better coming out in a few months which is we have a new remote app

00:22:14   so that if you have your iPhone you can use the keyboard on the iPhone to do

00:22:19   that and I think that certainly will get a lot more use. And more than that I mean

00:22:23   really the full you know Siri to your phone communicating with your TV and

00:22:27   that's a it's a great upgrade to that app. Well you could there's a remote app

00:22:32   for the iPhone now that you can connect to Apple TV. There is, as Craig said, it only does the

00:22:37   keyboard. The new remote app will do all of the capabilities that the existing new Apple TV remote

00:22:43   does like Siri. And like gestures, for instance, because you have obviously, you know, the trackpad

00:22:48   function of the remote can be done with your phone now too with that remote. So it's a really

00:22:52   full replacement. Oh, so I have a scoop here. There you go. That's actually heard it here first.

00:22:58   Well, you can't broadcast this for three months.

00:23:01   (laughing)

00:23:04   - I think that's gonna actually make a lot of people

00:23:06   very happy though.

00:23:07   And it might, would that work with some of the games too?

00:23:11   So that if there's a two player game

00:23:13   that somebody could use their phone

00:23:15   and have it be the slider

00:23:16   and somebody else can use the remote?

00:23:18   - Yes, that's exactly, you can use the metal,

00:23:20   the Apple TV remote for one person

00:23:22   and their phone for the second person.

00:23:25   - Oh, that sounds great.

00:23:27   Let's move on and sort of talk about something that it almost feels like a Groundhog Day.

00:23:34   And it's almost, you know, since it's February, it actually is close to Groundhog Day.

00:23:37   Is that last year, there were a couple of posts that came up early in the year about

00:23:40   Apple having little tiny sort of death by a thousand paper cut software problems across

00:23:47   the board.

00:23:48   And there was a lot of discussion about it and sort of culminated, at least for me, when

00:23:54   Phil Schiller was on this show at the live show at WWDC and we talked about it

00:23:58   and I thought Phil talked about it really openly and then it seemed to fade

00:24:03   away from the punditry discussion and then last week Walt Mossberg had a

00:24:09   column I think the headline was Apple's app problem do you got what do you guys

00:24:15   say to this this just the general nothing specific let's not get in any

00:24:18   specific app, but the general idea that Apple's software has declined in quality, let's say,

00:24:25   over the last five years.

00:24:27   I would say first that there's nothing we care about more.

00:24:32   So it's not just me and Eddie filing lots of radars and using our devices, but everyone

00:24:40   who works here at Apple, we recognize this is the single most important thing about what

00:24:44   we do and what we come to work to do every day.

00:24:47   So I take extremely seriously any time any of our customers says that they aren't having

00:24:54   the experience that they expected from us.

00:24:57   And clearly Walt's article indicates that he is at the moment in that camp.

00:25:03   I look at it and say, "I know our core software quality has improved over the last five years,

00:25:12   improved significantly.

00:25:15   But the bar just keeps going up and that's a bar that we embrace.

00:25:21   That is a challenge that, you know, every year we realize we, the things we were good

00:25:26   at last year and the techniques we were using to build the best software we can are not

00:25:32   adequate for the next year because the bar keeps going up.

00:25:35   We have a billion active devices now.

00:25:38   And you know, if you think back to just nine years ago now with the iPhone, it, how many

00:25:45   much think back then of kind of how you interface with technology and

00:25:49   comparatively how narrowly each of us interface with technology and now think

00:25:53   about how integral your iPhone your iPad and and and still your Mac are to your

00:26:00   life how many hours a day I mean we see the usage metrics and year after year as

00:26:04   our team builds a new phone and thinks how big a battery should we put in this

00:26:08   phone we have to go back to them and say guys actually you're gonna have to up

00:26:11   that a good bit because people are using their phones more than ever this year

00:26:13   year and we see that trend go up and up and up and people are doing more and

00:26:16   more and what this means is when you have a billion people running phones in

00:26:21   every corner of their lives with all of these third-party apps in all these

00:26:24   countries and all these languages that there are going there are going to be

00:26:29   issues there were always issues but now these issues are you know you have

00:26:33   plenty of people that can can encounter one here and there and it gets it gets

00:26:38   amplified and and maybe I could ask you I mean I feel like something if you go

00:26:41   back five years or ten years in just the nature of internet journalism and the

00:26:46   press and how stories like this get communicated and amplified is change

00:26:52   things a little bit as well and so I think that plays into this the

00:26:57   element of why are we hearing about this again or why do we hear about it in

00:27:00   the way we do but I know we put just tremendous focus on improving our game

00:27:07   every year yeah I there's there's a certain aspect to the the basic idea

00:27:16   that to me is a little bit more of a then not just me I'm saying what I

00:27:20   detect when I when I see people nodding their heads in agreement on Twitter and

00:27:25   and follow up post to say the the like Mossberg's column last week that it's

00:27:30   more of a gut feeling than anything that anybody can put their finger on and say

00:27:35   here's this one thing that's, you know, absolutely terrible. And I know just from, you know, talking

00:27:44   with Phil last year, and like what you're saying now, that you guys have a lot of ways that you

00:27:51   measure this stuff with real analytics from the the diagnostics that people explicitly opt in to

00:27:58   provide to you when they're setting up devices. That's right. And that it there, I sense it, you

00:28:03   you guys, I mean, you two are both, you know, optimistic, cheerful people, but I,

00:28:08   I can't help, but I suspect,

00:28:11   and it's not coming from your voices here on this show,

00:28:13   but I just suspect in general that there's a sort of frustration within the

00:28:17   walls at Apple that you guys have these numbers that say software quality is

00:28:22   going up. And then on the outside, everybody is saying, wow, so Apple software,

00:28:26   they're, they're eyes off the ball. Is that, is it frustrating?

00:28:29   No, look, I think you said a few words that I would,

00:28:32   I would disagree with you, said everybody.

00:28:34   Uh, I think the vast majority of our customers are quite happy with our products

00:28:39   and the feedback that they've, they get and, and they ask for help.

00:28:42   And that's why we built things like Genius bars, which have been very popular.

00:28:45   Uh, why we, you know, we spend a great deal of money and effort on our Apple

00:28:50   care and support lines so that when people need help, um, you know,

00:28:54   training all of those things.

00:28:55   So I think it's, it's not to say that we don't have any bugs or

00:29:00   that we don't have any issues.

00:29:01   Every piece of software does.

00:29:03   We care deeply about it, which is why we all, you know, do all of these

00:29:07   different touch points, monitor them, look at them, make sure we're addressing them.

00:29:11   And, and at the same time as doing that, upping the game even more, because part

00:29:16   of upping the game is not just standing still and making the things that you have

00:29:20   worked, but making them even better, making them easier to use, those are all

00:29:24   the things we have to do at the same time.

00:29:26   - And Apple customers deserve the best.

00:29:30   And that's absolutely what we're signed up for.

00:29:34   So if and when we hear people are having challenges,

00:29:39   while on the one hand, we're frustrated, of course,

00:29:43   to hear it overall characterized as this,

00:29:47   the quality is dropping overall,

00:29:50   because we know that's not true,

00:29:51   but at the same time, there's certainly reality

00:29:54   if people are having these experiences,

00:29:57   then there's something we can improve.

00:29:59   And I can tell you the number of meetings we have

00:30:03   and have had even over the last few weeks

00:30:05   where we're constantly talking about how do we up the game?

00:30:09   Because when you talk about a billion customers

00:30:12   and you talk about the kind of upgrade rates we have,

00:30:15   I mean, I think back to when we shipped Snow Leopard

00:30:18   and how many people installed 10.6.0?

00:30:23   Effectively no one.

00:30:24   Okay.

00:30:25   I mean, you know, approximately no one.

00:30:27   In fact, we used to talk about, well, the, the, the upgrade rate to this OS

00:30:30   will about match the sales of new Macs that have it installed, you know?

00:30:34   I mean, people just didn't upgrade.

00:30:36   And if they did upgrade, it's like, why don't we wait for 10.6.5 or something?

00:30:39   You know, now we release a piece of software and in a matter of a couple

00:30:45   of weeks, we have, you know, coming up on 50% of our base running that piece of

00:30:49   software, I mean, hundreds of millions of people suddenly pounding on it, running

00:30:53   a diversity of apps that just is unprecedented

00:30:57   and using it in these incredibly connected ways.

00:31:00   And so, yeah, the bar is higher

00:31:04   and we will continue to adapt every year

00:31:09   to meet that challenge.

00:31:10   - And the scale, John, for this is truly amazing

00:31:14   because of the usage that people,

00:31:16   I mean, they rely on these for their lives.

00:31:18   I'll give you a couple points that we peak out

00:31:22   at 200,000 messages a second

00:31:25   that are sent on messages, for example.

00:31:27   We do 750 million transactions every week

00:31:32   in our app store, iTunes store.

00:31:34   We've done billions of dollars,

00:31:37   now you're talking about dollars for payments in Apple Pay.

00:31:40   So, you know, this is like,

00:31:42   it's a part of everyone's lives, and it's great,

00:31:45   we love this, this is the reason why, you know,

00:31:48   we do what we do and we get up in the morning

00:31:51   we're excited about coming in is because we can do more.

00:31:54   Um, and so the scale of this is, is huge, huge.

00:31:58   So what was the number for hot for messages? 200 K per second at the peak.

00:32:04   That's right.

00:32:05   People got a lot to say apparently.

00:32:08   Yeah. That was probably right. Uh,

00:32:10   like right at the moment in the first quarter of the Superbowl where they didn't

00:32:14   over overturn that catch.

00:32:16   Yeah. For some reason,

00:32:19   For some reason, it was really high from North Carolina. I don't know what was

00:32:22   but that is extraordinary. So that Eddie, that gets to a specific point.

00:32:29   And this is clearly an, in a ball that's in your court is,

00:32:33   is the general meme that Apple doesn't do online service as

00:32:38   well. And you know, that's, that's your responsibility.

00:32:41   What do you say to that?

00:32:44   Well, I think you go back to the things that we do really well.

00:32:49   Some of that we earned, to be clear, right? Part of the reason we did that many years ago

00:32:54   with MobileMeer Maps, but we've corrected those. And you look at iCloud,

00:32:58   we do, you know, we have 782 million iCloud users.

00:33:03   Some have multiple devices, which is why we have a billion devices.

00:33:07   They upload billions of photos every single week, every single day.

00:33:11   And you look at the scale of messages, you look at Apple Pay, you look at our stores,

00:33:19   We run some of the largest services in the world, very successfully.

00:33:24   You take a look at Maps, we've corrected more than 2.5 million customer feedback

00:33:33   that we've gotten from customers directly to Maps, that we've corrected and notified them back that we fixed them.

00:33:38   So the scale of this is huge and I would compare it to any company out there.

00:33:44   And the ramp is unbelievable.

00:33:46   I mean, you consider when we launch a new release of iOS and OS X and the corresponding

00:33:52   cloud services, how we go from effectively zero to unbelievable international scale,

00:34:01   you know, literally overnight.

00:34:03   It's incredible.

00:34:04   And the team has, you know, done that at a scale, I think, that is, I can't think of

00:34:10   another example of what happens when we turn the lights on on a new service like we do.

00:34:16   And you know it generally goes off without a hitch the other thing I love about which is and I love this

00:34:23   We're not out harping

00:34:25   Our services as the brand the service isn't the thing it's the experience

00:34:30   And so you know whether you're typing in a note on your iPhone, and it's on your Mac

00:34:36   We're not

00:34:38   Advertising this as notes services or anything

00:34:40   We just want the experience to be so a lot of these things are behind the scenes and they just work and it's great for

00:34:45   customers. Yeah, even iMessage is a good example of that. And I personally have, I

00:34:51   I'd send, I don't even know, I'm a big chunk of that 200,000 messages per

00:34:56   second. I spend, I send a lot of messages and almost all my messages are

00:35:02   blue. Well you have good friends. But if you just look at how many people are

00:35:13   are using iMessage and how many messages they're sending, it compares, you know, very, very favorably

00:35:21   to a lot of the independent messaging apps and services out there like what app, what app and

00:35:29   WeChat and things like that. And I feel like that's one of those things that Apple doesn't

00:35:33   really get credit for, that they've got this messaging service with an extraordinary number

00:35:39   of users who are extraordinarily engaged with it and it's not really

00:35:43   figured into, you know, what Apple does at all because you guys don't really

00:35:48   brand it that way. You're just like, "Hey, just use this app and send it, you know,

00:35:51   send it to the, send your message to the person you know," and it goes through.

00:35:54   Yeah, I think that's what's great really about what we do is we tie

00:36:00   together, you know, the hardware, the software, and the services in a way that

00:36:04   you aren't thinking you just used a cloud service necessarily when you bought

00:36:09   your new iPhone and all your settings came back exactly the way you expected

00:36:12   and so forth or when we do a feature like Apple Pay. I mean Apple Pay is a

00:36:16   hardware feature, it's a software feature, it's a cloud feature, and it just works.

00:36:21   And it's a tremendous complex undertaking but the customer doesn't

00:36:26   have to think about any of those component pieces. They get an

00:36:29   experience that hopefully delights them. I'll give you a real quick anecdote,

00:36:33   hopefully quick. I was on an airplane recently and the plane took off and I

00:36:38   got on the Wi Fi and an online service from a different company wasn't an Apple thing,

00:36:43   it was somebody else gave me a warning that I couldn't, you know, look like I was signing

00:36:48   in from an unusual location, because it was, I don't know where the plane Wi Fi was saying

00:36:52   it from. How do I want to verify that it's really me and I had the only options were

00:36:56   to get a phone call or an SMS text message, which I can't get because I'm 10,000 feet

00:37:02   up in the air. And I showed it to the guy this the my my friend for the day sitting

00:37:06   next to me on the plane who you know we'd spoken before the flight took off

00:37:10   and he was like oh yeah you can get text I'm texting my I'm texting my wife right

00:37:13   now he was saying he was sending an i-mess right and I just like oh yeah

00:37:18   okay I'll do that you know cuz I didn't want to explain but he was he thought he

00:37:22   was solving my problem because he just thought no no it's great this is

00:37:25   absolutely wonderful I'm texting right now he didn't really have to think about

00:37:29   what he's using to text he's just doing it yeah I think I think that's a

00:37:33   fantastic example. So let's shift from services to talk about a specific bit of

00:37:47   software which isn't really about how it works but really sort of how its design

00:37:50   and it's iTunes on the desktop and here is where I wanted to quote Walt. So

00:37:55   here's what Walt Mossberg wrote, "Apple's iTunes program was once the envy of the

00:37:59   world. A combined digital music store and player could also sync your iPod.

00:38:02   And it worked on both Mac and Windows. It was reasonably fast and very sure-footed.

00:38:07   Now I dread opening the thing. And that's sort of damning, and the thing that to me is more damning

00:38:17   is that I don't... I see a lot of people who agree with that, and I don't see anybody who really

00:38:21   disagrees with it. Yeah, look, let's go back to Walt's thing specifically to address, which is

00:38:31   this is performance issues and that.

00:38:33   We've actually looked at it, nothing to do with iTunes.

00:38:35   But your question is still dead on because it's something we started about

00:38:39   two years ago thinking about what we wanted to do with iTunes.

00:38:42   And let me walk you back with where it's designed from and

00:38:46   where I think it can go to.

00:38:48   So first of all,

00:38:49   we designed it in a time when everybody was syncing directly via cable.

00:38:53   So the things didn't exist in the cloud.

00:38:58   And having a centralized place where all of your content was there

00:39:01   to sync was really key because it made it really easy to do.

00:39:04   It didn't matter where the content was.

00:39:06   You didn't have to launch multiple apps.

00:39:07   You didn't have a separate app that made it really difficult

00:39:09   to see.

00:39:10   And so it worked really, really well.

00:39:12   And by the way, given that we have a billion devices out

00:39:14   there, there are still hundreds of millions of people

00:39:16   doing exactly that.

00:39:18   When we went to Apple Music, we said, well, let's see.

00:39:21   We're building a new service.

00:39:22   Why don't we do it all in the cloud?

00:39:24   Apple Music's all in the cloud.

00:39:25   Let's do it that way.

00:39:27   And one of the things that we wanted to do that was different

00:39:29   was we didn't want just the music that lived in the cloud.

00:39:32   If you had music, whether it was a live performance

00:39:37   with Bruce Springsteen, for example, which I just bought,

00:39:39   'cause I haven't seen the new show and I'm a huge Bruce fan,

00:39:42   how do I get that to the cloud?

00:39:43   Well, in most of the services that are out there,

00:39:45   there's no way to do that.

00:39:47   Because it lives in iTunes, it lets you do that,

00:39:49   and it's very easy to upload that into the cloud

00:39:52   and then exists in all of your devices.

00:39:54   And so we decided that in the short term,

00:39:56   what we wanted to do is really make it

00:39:58   so that when you're in music and iTunes,

00:40:00   all you see is music.

00:40:02   And if you were doing a separate music app,

00:40:05   it would really look a lot like iTunes

00:40:07   when you're in the music player,

00:40:09   because there's only one area

00:40:10   where you pick which media type you wanna do.

00:40:13   That's not to say that we are continuing,

00:40:15   and we'll continue to think about what's the best way

00:40:18   to architect the app,

00:40:19   and whether it makes sense to do a separate app.

00:40:22   For some of the components that are in there,

00:40:23   or all of the components that are in there,

00:40:25   but right now we think we've designed iTunes,

00:40:27   And you'll see we've got a new refresh

00:40:29   with the new version of OS X that's coming out next month

00:40:33   that makes it even easier to use in the music space.

00:40:37   - There are definitely, there's a big responsibility

00:40:40   in transitioning the experiences for a lot of these apps.

00:40:44   So these are so important to people

00:40:45   and we see it every time we change them at all.

00:40:47   And there are cases where, if you look at photos,

00:40:50   where we did a really bold rethink

00:40:53   of where photos needed to go and how to transition it.

00:40:56   And by and large, I think that's been well received.

00:40:58   Um, and, uh, I, I, I personally love it.

00:41:01   And, uh, but, but you'll hear people who say, hold on, you know, there was a reason

00:41:05   why I liked the way things used to be.

00:41:07   And, uh, people are pretty serious about their music and, uh, about their

00:41:12   collection.

00:41:12   And so, um, I think, I think we, we talk, we debate pretty heavily internally, the

00:41:19   right, the right way to evolve these things.

00:41:21   And, and, you know, we, we tend to err on the side of being pretty bold.

00:41:24   Um, but, uh, there, there's a lot of responsibility.

00:41:28   We can, we, you get the other side of these, these stories.

00:41:31   Um, you know, some of the people, when you talk about people nodding your, your head,

00:41:35   if I, if I look at some of the comments that come online, when people say, yeah,

00:41:38   Apple, uh, Apple's quality is bad.

00:41:41   And someone will say, yeah, like when they took away my, my iPhoto app and replaced

00:41:45   it with photos, I don't like the new photos app and that's why they think Apple

00:41:49   software quality is bad.

00:41:51   Now, many of us would say, well, hold on.

00:41:52   there's exactly an example of where Apple's software quality is quite good. We delivered

00:41:57   something faster, cleaner, simpler, but someone's going to say no, but it's changed and I was

00:42:03   attached to it. And so this is a tricky balancing act and I think our customers give us a lot

00:42:10   of responsibility to thoughtfully evolve their experiences and we try to take that responsibility

00:42:15   very seriously.

00:42:16   I don't think anybody would disagree that institutionally Apple compared to its, any company you might compare it against,

00:42:23   has been always more willing to push through changes.

00:42:28   Whether you go back to the 80s and say that the Macintosh debuted without any kind of command line at all,

00:42:34   which was the only way anybody knew how to use a computer up until then.

00:42:37   And they're like, "No, this is the right way."

00:42:39   to another almost canonical example of it was the 1998 original iMac shipping

00:42:46   without a floppy disk and it's nobody had ever how can you have a personal

00:42:49   computer without a floppy disk little things like that do you do you guys find

00:42:54   though that it's getting harder to do that now that you're talking about

00:42:58   having 700 800 million users is it harder because of that resist that that

00:43:04   natural part of humanity that just is resistant to change of any kind sure of

00:43:08   Of course it's harder.

00:43:09   When you have more customers, those things are harder to do.

00:43:12   But that doesn't, at least for me, and I've been here when we were really small and now

00:43:17   when we're much larger, it hasn't really changed.

00:43:20   We're still willing to push.

00:43:21   We just have to make sure that we think about the ways that people are using the product

00:43:26   and when we make the changes that they're not significant and we're improving more than

00:43:31   we're actually taking away or that it's the right thing to do.

00:43:35   And so you have to be a little more conscious of understanding all of the different ways

00:43:38   and which customers use it, but you bet we got to keep pushing because if you want to

00:43:43   innovate you got to move.

00:43:45   You can't sit still with what you have.

00:43:47   Yeah, and that's so strong internally.

00:43:49   I mean the base instinct of everyone here is let's do it the right way.

00:43:57   If this is now the right way, forget the past, let's do it the right way.

00:44:00   And it's a second thought then to, well, hold on.

00:44:03   Okay, what does that mean for the transition and taking our customers along with us on

00:44:08   this, but it's so integral to who we are and how people think here, that yeah, there's

00:44:14   more of an external, there's a larger customer base that we have responsibility for, but

00:44:19   we know part of why they're Apple customers is because that's what they expect from us.

00:44:23   We would be doing them a disservice if we stopped pushing.

00:44:27   All right, let me make the specific comparison between two apps that we've just been talking

00:44:32   about is iTunes and photos for Mac.

00:44:37   So in the digital hub era, when the Mac was positioned, here's our idea for the Mac.

00:44:43   It's your digital hub for all of these little devices like cameras and iPods that you have

00:44:47   in your life.

00:44:49   iPhoto was the Mac solution to photos and iTunes was the Mac and Windows solution to

00:44:54   music.

00:44:55   And then later, media, like TV shows and stuff.

00:45:00   The new strategy is clearly iCloud centric.

00:45:03   guys have been explicit about that since iCloud was announced in on stage in 2011.

00:45:08   Yeah. And it didn't come right away. It wasn't like photos for Mac came out immediately. But

00:45:13   that was the answer in and last year was really that transition year. But the idea was look,

00:45:19   iPhoto was great for then. But now we've got this photos app, which is truly just appear to what

00:45:26   you've got on your iOS devices. And it's really designed for the modern age in the modern modern

00:45:30   model and iTunes and music haven't really made that shift is is that

00:45:35   because music is different and because iTunes has different responsibilities or

00:45:39   is it because iTunes has to exist for Windows and iPhoto didn't or or is it

00:45:43   something else no it's look I think you're seeing music make that

00:45:46   transition now since last year when we introduced Apple music the truth is

00:45:51   music before that was very local it really didn't live in the cloud and you

00:45:56   You moved your content by moving it to a device locally,

00:46:01   and then the device was there.

00:46:02   And then if you wanted to update that device,

00:46:04   you brought it back.

00:46:05   Now that we've-- and it's not just bringing a subscription

00:46:08   service, as I said.

00:46:09   It's about bringing all of your music,

00:46:11   no matter how you acquired it.

00:46:12   If it doesn't exist in the subscription service

00:46:15   and you bought it yourself separately,

00:46:17   or it's available separately as a bootleg, all of the things

00:46:20   that you consume with music.

00:46:22   And we're seeing that transition now.

00:46:24   So for myself, I live in a world where my music

00:46:28   is all in the cloud.

00:46:29   And I think we're gonna see more and more customers.

00:46:31   We just passed over 11 million Apple Music subscribers,

00:46:35   and all of those people live in a world

00:46:37   where music is in the cloud.

00:46:38   - So that's a big, 11 million Apple Music subscribers

00:46:46   is a big number, and it's only since,

00:46:50   I mean, when did it come out of beta?

00:46:53   It came out in September, but we gave away the first three months for free.

00:46:57   So think about it as later in the year, October.

00:47:03   And the growth rate is good on that.

00:47:07   We've been very pleased.

00:47:08   It's great.

00:47:09   Just this past week, we introduced it in Taiwan, and we also introduced it in Turkey, which

00:47:15   has been great.

00:47:16   We introduced a version for Android, our first Android application.

00:47:20   That's our second.

00:47:22   had moved to iOS. That's true, thank you. Much loved app on the Android Play Store.

00:47:29   It's always a good source of humor is to go... it's like going to read the

00:47:35   Yelp reviews for your favorite local restaurant and seeing the people who

00:47:39   don't get it. And one of the things we've learned by the way as we've gone to

00:47:44   Apple Music is that we have to educate people as much as all of us know about

00:47:50   music subscriptions, when you go around the world,

00:47:52   what does it mean to have access

00:47:55   to all of the music in the world?

00:47:57   And what does that mean and how does that work?

00:47:59   And that's something that we're doing

00:48:02   a lot of work on right now.

00:48:04   'Cause we noticed that a lot of times

00:48:06   people just didn't understand the concept.

00:48:07   What do you mean I pay 99, what do I get, how do I get it?

00:48:11   All of those things.

00:48:12   And that's been a big part of moving the number

00:48:15   and continuing to move the number forward.

00:48:18   - All right, before we wrap this up,

00:48:19   there's a topic I want to get to,

00:48:21   and I guess it's a little bit more

00:48:22   on Craig's side of the court,

00:48:24   but I've got some good friends

00:48:25   who if I don't talk about this,

00:48:26   I think are gonna shoot me,

00:48:28   'cause I have the opportunity.

00:48:29   - Is this about dynamic dispatch and Objective-C?

00:48:31   I'm ready.

00:48:32   - No.

00:48:33   (laughing)

00:48:35   It's about radar.

00:48:36   So Eddie mentioned that with Maps.

00:48:38   Maps has a feature where if you see an error,

00:48:41   you can report the error,

00:48:43   and when it gets fixed, you get notified,

00:48:45   and it says, "Hey, thank you for reporting

00:48:47   that this road is not where it used to be, or there's a new road here. We have now fixed it.

00:48:53   What I hear a lot from my friends who are third-party developers is the sense that radar

00:49:01   is nearly a black hole, that you file your report, it goes in there, and an awful lot of bugs that

00:49:09   even ones that are submitted with examples, like here, run this example code and it will prove that

00:49:14   that this is a bug in this new version of the OS.

00:49:17   And then you just never,

00:49:18   they just never hear anything about it.

00:49:19   - Yeah.

00:49:20   - Like how can radar get more like Apple maps

00:49:23   where it gives, I'm serious.

00:49:27   I think that developers really,

00:49:28   and I feel like it's a,

00:49:30   what's the, I don't know what the opposite

00:49:33   of a virtuous circle, an in-virtuous circle,

00:49:35   where developers, if they feel like it's a black hole,

00:49:37   they report fewer bugs

00:49:39   because they feel like they're wasting their time.

00:49:40   And developers not reporting bugs is, I'm sure,

00:49:43   not what you want?

00:49:44   - That's for sure, yeah.

00:49:47   I mean, quite honestly, we're not where we wanna be

00:49:50   with radar as an externally facing tool.

00:49:53   I mean, it's the lifeblood of the organization

00:49:55   in terms of how we manage our bugs and manage our releases

00:49:58   and I file tons of them

00:50:00   and so does everyone who works here in software.

00:50:05   But our external interface is not great.

00:50:07   And a big part of that is something we struggle with

00:50:10   is how we sort out communicating about the issues

00:50:14   that we fix, because you may report an issue,

00:50:18   we may dupe it to a bug that we're working on fixing,

00:50:22   we may fix that bug, maybe we fix it in iOS 10,

00:50:24   maybe we fix it in something that's probably

00:50:26   gonna go in iOS 9.3.

00:50:28   You wanna know that we've fixed it,

00:50:30   we don't necessarily right now have a great way

00:50:33   to decide when we wanna communicate to you

00:50:35   that there's a release that it's getting fixed in,

00:50:37   that we're promising that the fix is gonna happen,

00:50:40   And so we fundamentally have communication feedback problems

00:50:43   that we need to sort out.

00:50:44   I can tell you that the reports do get read,

00:50:47   that they do influence what we do,

00:50:50   but our back channel communication needs some work

00:50:54   because we are reading them,

00:50:58   we just don't tell you what's happening with them.

00:51:00   And I understand absolutely the frustration

00:51:02   of a lot of developers who file those bugs.

00:51:05   - Do you agree that that sort of improving that

00:51:09   as a, it's sort of a point where the trickle down from that,

00:51:14   where if you guys could improve

00:51:15   the back channel communication from radar,

00:51:16   it would influence the sort of lots of little bugs

00:51:21   getting fixed that people are complaining about

00:51:24   and address, it's like a centralized place

00:51:26   to address the widespread entire user-based wide program,

00:51:30   problem of, hey, this little thing is going wrong

00:51:33   and I don't understand why.

00:51:35   - I think it helps.

00:51:37   I think we have other ways also

00:51:38   that we're getting a lot of great feedback.

00:51:40   We did our first, as you know, public beta for iOS

00:51:43   in a year ago, the public beta for OS X.

00:51:45   And actually in that way brought, you know,

00:51:47   over a million people into the program.

00:51:51   And we did include in those a feedback assistant tool,

00:51:54   which was meant as a, you know,

00:51:57   kind of radar-like feedback tool,

00:51:59   but one that we could, you know,

00:52:00   the average person could use, whether an iOS and OS X.

00:52:02   And it automatically, not only does it give us

00:52:05   what the user types, but it automatically gives us

00:52:07   a lot of additional diagnostics.

00:52:11   They get prompted and says,

00:52:12   oh, is it okay if we send this, this and this back?

00:52:14   And gives us some really great actionable information

00:52:17   about the issues they uncover.

00:52:18   And so that's another great channel

00:52:20   to find out about the issues people are running into.

00:52:24   And it's made a huge difference

00:52:25   on the quality of our software.

00:52:28   I mean, just one metric and it's not,

00:52:31   there are lots of different ways in which,

00:52:33   lots of different kinds of feedback we get,

00:52:34   but something that's very measurable

00:52:36   are things like crash rate.

00:52:37   And I can tell you in the past,

00:52:39   you'd see this seesaw pattern

00:52:40   where a .0 release would come out

00:52:42   and that would have a certain high crash rate

00:52:45   and then we'd issue our software updates

00:52:47   and that rate would go down.

00:52:49   After doing the public beta here for iOS,

00:52:53   our release, our .0, our 9.0 was better

00:52:58   than any previous release of iOS 8.

00:53:01   That the numbers that,

00:53:02   and those are the kind of systematic steps

00:53:04   where you can get feedback from our users,

00:53:06   both automatic and the kind of things

00:53:08   where they write up an issue

00:53:09   and it helps us improve the product.

00:53:11   So you're gonna see more and more of that from us

00:53:14   and we think it continues to pay off.

00:53:16   - So just to reiterate that,

00:53:19   I just wanna make sure I heard you correctly.

00:53:20   You're saying that when 9.0 came out, the release version,

00:53:23   that the crash rate for apps was actually lower

00:53:26   than the version of iOS 8,

00:53:28   whatever the stable version of iOS 8 was

00:53:30   that people were upgrading from.

00:53:31   - That's right, of our apps.

00:53:34   - Right, oh, okay.

00:53:35   Yeah, yeah. Third party apps are a,

00:53:39   I don't actually have the number on that,

00:53:40   but that's always a challenge.

00:53:42   I mean, one thing honestly that can happen to us on quality

00:53:46   is sometimes also a third party will happen to ship an app

00:53:49   about the same time we ship an OS update

00:53:51   and independent of that, that app starts crashing

00:53:53   and that affects user, so you gotta cut,

00:53:55   it's always a challenge to cut through the noise,

00:53:57   but we have pretty good analytics

00:53:58   and our numbers are showing we're on the right track there.

00:54:03   Well, it's about the time to wrap this up.

00:54:06   I wanted to know though,

00:54:06   because you guys were nice enough to come on.

00:54:08   Is there anything that I haven't asked you

00:54:10   that you wished I had?

00:54:11   Is there something that you guys wanted to talk about

00:54:14   that we haven't discussed?

00:54:16   - Well, since this is an audio podcast and not a video one,

00:54:19   I'm disappointed that you can't see

00:54:22   the purple shirt I'm wearing.

00:54:23   - He did really rise to the occasion.

00:54:25   I don't know if Eddie thought he was gonna be on camera here

00:54:27   but he's in full stage wear.

00:54:30   It's-- - You know,

00:54:31   I thought about that just before we got on the air.

00:54:34   I linked to a story the New York Times had

00:54:38   about this amazing science that astronomers have done

00:54:42   where they've measured as audio this gravitational wave

00:54:47   that proves this thing Einstein predicted 100 years ago

00:54:50   that if two black holes collided,

00:54:52   you'd be able to produce this gravity wave

00:54:54   that you could hear.

00:54:55   And I thought, wouldn't that be great if we had a microphone

00:54:57   that could produce a sound--

00:54:59   - Of Eddie's shirt?

00:55:00   Eddie's shirt.

00:55:01   We all just didn't a synesthetic experience.

00:55:08   Yeah.

00:55:09   I know it's all the senses come alive when we

00:55:11   see Eddie's shirt.

00:55:12   We just didn't have enough time to set up the

00:55:15   technology.

00:55:15   Maybe next time.

00:55:17   This was great.

00:55:19   I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did.

00:55:22   I love it.

00:55:22   John, I got one question for you though.

00:55:24   So since we started with sports and it's almost

00:55:27   baseball season, give me your world series

00:55:29   prediction.

00:55:29   Oh, I, uh, I hate to say it, but I, I think the Cubs, it doesn't seem like a good bet,

00:55:40   but boy, the Cubs look good in the national league and in the American league.

00:55:46   Boy, I don't, I'll just go out in the lemon, say the New York Yankees.

00:55:53   That was fulfilled.

00:55:55   So that's, that's great.

00:55:57   You gotta remember though, it is an even year.

00:56:00   And in even years, the San Francisco Giants always win.

00:56:03   (laughing)

00:56:04   - That's the weirdest little like, inexplicable,

00:56:07   like they've, and they've kept a core together.

00:56:09   I don't understand that at all.

00:56:11   I don't know if they just party way too hard

00:56:13   after they win the World Series

00:56:14   and it tanks the hole next season or what.

00:56:17   But that is the weirdest little mini dynasty streak

00:56:21   I've ever seen.

00:56:21   - It is great. - So I don't know.

00:56:23   I don't know that I'd wanna bet against the Giants next year.

00:56:26   All right, well, it was great talking to you.

00:56:27   Thank you.

00:56:29   Thank you both.

00:56:29   Eddie Q Craig Federighi.

00:56:31   I really greatly appreciate the time.