The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► All right, this is unfamiliar.

00:00:01 ◼   ► I don't know if I sound right.

00:00:02 ◼   ► I'm not using my microphone.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm not using my headphones,

00:00:06 ◼   ► although they are identical to my headphones.

00:00:08 ◼   ► And I'm not even using my own computer.

00:00:11 ◼   ► I have a review unit, 15-inch Core i9,

00:00:15 ◼   ► the most controversial computer in the world in front of me.

00:00:18 ◼   ► And I'm not even in my house.

00:00:21 ◼   ► I'm here with Marco Arment at his

00:00:24 ◼   ► bizarre summer home in New York.

00:00:29 ◼   ► And not coincidentally, our guest this week is Marco Arment.

00:00:33 ◼   ► Marco, welcome to the show.

00:00:35 ◼   ► - Thank you very much.

00:00:36 ◼   ► - I love recording shows with somebody in the room,

00:00:39 ◼   ► although I can't, I can see you,

00:00:41 ◼   ► but I do feel like the dynamic is always a little better.

00:00:45 ◼   ► And I say that knowing that 98% of my shows

00:00:48 ◼   ► are entirely over Skype.

00:00:50 ◼   ► - You're just throwing the rest of your shows under the bus.

00:00:52 ◼   ► - I am.

00:00:54 ◼   ► - We're gonna tell you why all the other episodes

00:00:55 ◼   ► of this show are less good than this, really.

00:00:58 ◼   ► But I have no concerns over audio drift,

00:01:01 ◼   ► no concerns over Skype dropouts,

00:01:03 ◼   ► so it should be pretty good.

00:01:05 ◼   ► So I guess that the biggest story,

00:01:09 ◼   ► I haven't done a show in like four weeks,

00:01:11 ◼   ► so it's been a long hiatus over the summer.

00:01:14 ◼   ► I've been vacationing in various ways.

00:01:18 ◼   ► Biggest story clearly to have dropped since last

00:01:20 ◼   ► I recorded a show is that Apple has come out

00:01:23 ◼   ► with an all new lineup of Touch Bar Mac OS,

00:01:27 ◼   ► touch bar MacBook Pros.

00:01:29 ◼   ► Every MacBook Pro with a touch bar has been updated,

00:01:32 ◼   ► and the one MacBook Pro without a touch bar,

00:01:36 ◼   ► the--

00:01:38 ◼   ► - The MacBook Escape.

00:01:39 ◼   ► - The MacBook Escape, for lack of a better term,

00:01:41 ◼   ► is as yet untouched,

00:01:43 ◼   ► and the regular MacBooks are untouched.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Presumably updates to those will be coming in the fall.

00:01:50 ◼   ► - Do you think they're finally,

00:01:52 ◼   ► like there's been these rumors about like, you know,

00:01:54 ◼   ► new MacBook Air replacement or something like that.

00:01:56 ◼   ► My theory is that the MacBook Air replacement is just going to be a new configuration of the MacBook escape

00:02:01 ◼   ► But do you think they're finally gonna give it a different name?

00:02:04 ◼   ► So we can stop all this nonsense about like this is the touch bar MacBook Pro versus the touch button versus the MacBook Pro with two

00:02:10 ◼   ► Thunderbolt 3 ports versus like it's the naming is such a mask

00:02:14 ◼   ► Can we just finally like hopefully get rid of that this fall? I hope so. I don't know anything about it. I

00:02:19 ◼   ► Hope so, though. I actually the there's to me

00:02:24 ◼   ► The naming of the entire MacBook line is it sounds superficial and and like for example this it is

00:02:30 ◼   ► Superficial the whole leg should we call it iPhone X or iPhone 10?

00:02:34 ◼   ► Should they have even called it that because there wasn't at least as yet there is no iPhone 9

00:02:39 ◼   ► Doesn't make it that's superficial. It doesn't really

00:02:42 ◼   ► So confusion in my opinion. I think the MacBook lineup naming

00:02:49 ◼   ► Sows confusion I've mentioned this before but it's madness that they continue to sell the MacBook Air

00:02:54 ◼   ► With the name that implies that it is thinner and lighter when it is way thicker and way heavier than the just plain MacBook

00:03:02 ◼   ► it makes absolutely no sense and I

00:03:05 ◼   ► Guess that the logic behind it is they want to drop the name air and they've successfully done that on the iPads

00:03:12 ◼   ► Because they've they iterate faster. So there's no more iPad air. There's just plain iPad and then there's iPad Pro

00:03:18 ◼   ► So the iPad has a perfectly logical naming structure in my opinion just playing iPad

00:03:24 ◼   ► It's cheaper has less fewer features

00:03:27 ◼   ► iPad Pro it's more expensive and has more features like support for the pencil and stuff like that

00:03:33 ◼   ► The air thing and the just plain MacBook thing

00:03:37 ◼   ► I mean, I don't think they're gonna change the name of the just plain MacBook, which still

00:03:41 ◼   ► Makes me I that's how I always write it. I write just plain MacBook. I know on your show. It's the MacBook one

00:03:47 ◼   ► - Well even then, not enough people recognize that,

00:03:49 ◼   ► so I'll usually just say the 12-inch MacBook.

00:03:52 ◼   ► But even that, that was a weird name to give it,

00:03:55 ◼   ► you know, the name MacBook without anything else

00:03:57 ◼   ► because that suggests that it's the bottom of the line model

00:04:00 ◼   ► and while that's true in performance,

00:04:02 ◼   ► that's not true in specs otherwise or in battery,

00:04:04 ◼   ► or sorry, in price.

00:04:06 ◼   ► - Right, right.

00:04:07 ◼   ► - Like it is not, it is far from the cheapest one.

00:04:09 ◼   ► The cheapest one is the MacBook Air

00:04:11 ◼   ► and that seemed to be for legacy reasons

00:04:13 ◼   ► when the 12-inch MacBook was released in 2015.

00:04:17 ◼   ► But it's been a while now that we've still,

00:04:19 ◼   ► it's like, it would be one thing if this was

00:04:23 ◼   ► like a problem for like one year or six months,

00:04:25 ◼   ► like while they're between cycles,

00:04:26 ◼   ► but we've had for three years now this confusion

00:04:29 ◼   ► of the MacBook is not the lowest end or cheapest MacBook.

00:04:34 ◼   ► The MacBook Pro includes some pretty different capabilities

00:04:38 ◼   ► between its different models, and the MacBook Air

00:04:41 ◼   ► is not the thinnest and lightest one,

00:04:44 ◼   ► but it is the lowest end, like, I don't know.

00:04:46 ◼   ► I just, please Apple, fix this naming scheme this fall

00:04:49 ◼   ► with whatever you're doing.

00:04:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, so here's, let's see what Germin said back in March.

00:04:54 ◼   ► Something about a lower priced MacBook.

00:04:57 ◼   ► I don't think they're gonna call it an Air.

00:04:58 ◼   ► I don't think, I'd be very, very surprised

00:05:01 ◼   ► if they update the Air as we know it.

00:05:03 ◼   ► Like in just, you know, the thing that everybody wants,

00:05:05 ◼   ► the oh God, why can't you just put a retina display

00:05:08 ◼   ► in the MacBook Air and don't change anything else

00:05:10 ◼   ► and I'll just buy that.

00:05:12 ◼   ► And I know that there are people who would,

00:05:13 ◼   ► that would make happy, or at least they certainly would have

00:05:17 ◼   ► within the last two years.

00:05:18 ◼   ► I don't know at this point if that still

00:05:20 ◼   ► would make people happy, but that's not gonna happen.

00:05:23 ◼   ► - Like, I would love if they just,

00:05:25 ◼   ► if their low-end computer was still basically

00:05:29 ◼   ► the MacBook Air looking thing, but with the retina screen

00:05:32 ◼   ► and with the Thunderbolt port replaced

00:05:33 ◼   ► by a single USB 3 Thunderbolt 3 port.

00:05:36 ◼   ► Like, that would be fine, but they're not gonna make it.

00:05:39 ◼   ► There's no way they're gonna make it, but it's funny.

00:05:41 ◼   ► Like it is kind of sad that here we are talking about how like, you know, a lot of people

00:05:47 ◼   ► would be very happy if they just made this thing, but Apple won't do that.

00:05:52 ◼   ► Apple's not going to do what their customers actually are asking for.

00:05:55 ◼   ► And in some cases that works.

00:05:56 ◼   ► Like in some cases, you know, they do something better that we actually like better and that's

00:05:59 ◼   ► usually how it plays out.

00:06:01 ◼   ► But in this case, I don't like, I think what they're actually going to do is just make

00:06:04 ◼   ► a de-specced, lower priced MacBook escape

00:06:09 ◼   ► and call that the new MacBook Air or whatever,

00:06:11 ◼   ► like make that the replacement for it,

00:06:13 ◼   ► just like take this machine that they positioned

00:06:16 ◼   ► when it was released, they positioned it as

00:06:18 ◼   ► this is the replacement for the MacBook Air,

00:06:20 ◼   ► but then of course it was too limited and too expensive.

00:06:23 ◼   ► I think they're just gonna try to address that,

00:06:25 ◼   ► they're not gonna make it less limited,

00:06:26 ◼   ► they're not gonna like add ports back to it or anything,

00:06:27 ◼   ► but they will try to make a version of it

00:06:30 ◼   ► that is less expensive without sacrificing

00:06:32 ◼   ► their massive margins.

00:06:33 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know. It's such a popular product. It is clearly, if you have subscribed to any

00:06:42 ◼   ► belief whatsoever that Apple really still is serious about and cares about the Macintosh

00:06:48 ◼   ► as a whole, the MacBook lineup from lowest to highest end is entirely, it's their bread

00:06:55 ◼   ► and butter. And as much, you know, the iMac Pro, which I have yours right in front of

00:07:00 ◼   ► It's a great computer shows their dedication to the niche pro market

00:07:05 ◼   ► You know, they've promised and talked about in advance which is unprecedented an all-new Mac Pro

00:07:12 ◼   ► which is an even smaller niche, you know supposedly coming a

00:07:18 ◼   ► 2019 thing quote unquote 2019 thing so next December, right? I don't think so. I think it'll be early next year. I hope

00:07:29 ◼   ► And and they're still popular right? I mean we they report how many max are sold every quarter it is

00:07:35 ◼   ► It is a completely safe it's guaranteed to assume that most of them are Mac have the name MacBook in them somewhere

00:07:43 ◼   ► But the lineup is a mess naming wise and spec wise, you know

00:07:50 ◼   ► Like the fact that the most popular one by far has to be the still the MacBook Air

00:07:54 ◼   ► simply because of price and they're selling I think the light time you were on my show we were

00:07:59 ◼   ► talking about the madness that they're selling a non retina display let alone that a non retina

00:08:05 ◼   ► display in their most popular product makes some degree of sense in the common sense way just that

00:08:10 ◼   ► of course the lowest price one is the one least likely to have a retina display because a retina

00:08:13 ◼   ► display is more expensive obviously than whatever you you know the crummy display in the macbook air

00:08:19 ◼   ► But it's just preposterous that they're, you know, here we are in 2018 and it's late July and people

00:08:26 ◼   ► are sending, you know, buying the computers for their kids going to college. And surely the most

00:08:31 ◼   ► popular one they're sending the kids off to if they're getting a brand new computer is a,

00:08:35 ◼   ► is a what, two or three year old MacBook Air?

00:08:37 ◼   ► At least, I think three or four at this point. And, you know, and it actually,

00:08:42 ◼   ► it's not that these people are like being, you know, dumb or cheap. The MacBook Air is still

00:08:47 ◼   ► actually pretty compelling if you can just overlook that it's, you know, that the guts

00:08:50 ◼   ► are a little bit old and that it has an ombre on the screen. But if you can overlook those

00:08:53 ◼   ► two things, which a lot of people do, it's still a really compelling computer. It's,

00:08:57 ◼   ► look, the MacBook Air is awesome. Like when that, when that generation is, like this is

00:09:01 ◼   ► like the second body style of the MacBook Air came out in 2010, it was, or 2009, it

00:09:07 ◼   ► was amazing. Like remember like even back then, it felt like you were getting away with

00:09:11 ◼   ► something because it was like you can look at all the other MacBooks in the lineup at

00:09:14 ◼   ► at the time, all the MacBook Pros, and you're like,

00:09:15 ◼   ► you know, actually, this MacBook Air gives me like 80%

00:09:18 ◼   ► of what I need in a much nicer and more attractive

00:09:22 ◼   ► and easier to carry package, and it remained that way

00:09:25 ◼   ► from that generation, like, you know, 'cause SSDs

00:09:27 ◼   ► basically gave it the performance it needed,

00:09:28 ◼   ► and it remained that way really until like two years ago,

00:09:32 ◼   ► where the MacBook Air was pretty much like the one

00:09:34 ◼   ► most people should get most of the time,

00:09:37 ◼   ► and it happened to also be one of the, if not the,

00:09:40 ◼   ► least expensive model most of that time.

00:09:42 ◼   ► So it did kind of feel like we were getting away

00:09:44 ◼   ► something all this time and maybe now Apple's like correcting that in some way but I don't know it's

00:09:48 ◼   ► it's the low end of the lineup is still such a mess. Here's I'm gonna read a little bit from

00:09:54 ◼   ► Gurman's report from March which came out before that education event in Chicago. A new cheaper

00:10:02 ◼   ► this is quoting Mark Gurman at Bloomberg a new cheaper MacBook like lineup laptop is in the

00:10:08 ◼   ► works and likely replace the MacBook Air at a price less than $1,000. Probably $9.99.

00:10:17 ◼   ► Yeah, right.

00:10:18 ◼   ► But it probably won't be ready in time for next week, the people said.

00:10:22 ◼   ► This was in March?

00:10:24 ◼   ► Yeah, this was in March.

00:10:25 ◼   ► Well, he was right. It probably wasn't.

00:10:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:30 ◼   ► Like, I just love, I love that because,

00:10:36 ◼   ► and again, I'm not saying that he's wrong,

00:10:39 ◼   ► I'm not saying that his sources were,

00:10:41 ◼   ► they're, you know, like you just said,

00:10:44 ◼   ► they're technically, they were right,

00:10:46 ◼   ► but I love that his sources were far enough away

00:10:48 ◼   ► that they could only say it probably wasn't going

00:10:50 ◼   ► to be coming in March and here we are in July

00:10:52 ◼   ► and it still hasn't come out.

00:10:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know, my secret sources say

00:10:54 ◼   ► that the Mac Pro is probably not coming out

00:10:56 ◼   ► next week either.

00:10:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, as much as iPhone stuff leaks in advance,

00:11:02 ◼   ► just because of the insane interest in it

00:11:08 ◼   ► and the insane scale,

00:11:13 ◼   ► how many of these things they have to have ready to go

00:11:16 ◼   ► on opening weekend,

00:11:18 ◼   ► and the Mac operates at an entire order of magnitude,

00:11:23 ◼   ► lower, maybe even more,

00:11:27 ◼   ► It does seem like Apple is able to keep Mac hardware stuff

00:11:31 ◼   ► under wraps from leakers.

00:11:33 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, remember, so right now we're right after

00:11:36 ◼   ► the release of the 2018 MacBook Pros.

00:11:38 ◼   ► They came out, what, about two weeks ago?

00:11:41 ◼   ► A few days before they came out,

00:11:43 ◼   ► there was this big report from Ming-Chi Kuo

00:11:45 ◼   ► about how Apple's gonna refresh basically

00:11:47 ◼   ► all the Macs this fall, and on that report,

00:11:50 ◼   ► he didn't mention this at all,

00:11:52 ◼   ► even though it was gonna happen literally three days

00:11:55 ◼   ► after this report, and all he said about the TouchBar models

00:11:59 ◼   ► was that they will be updated this fall.

00:12:02 ◼   ► He had no other information about it.

00:12:04 ◼   ► So clearly, here this was, this update that was happening

00:12:07 ◼   ► right under his nose, right at that time,

00:12:09 ◼   ► and he didn't even know.

00:12:10 ◼   ► And he's very well-sourced and usually knows

00:12:12 ◼   ► about such things.

00:12:14 ◼   ► Clearly, the secrecy is way more effective

00:12:16 ◼   ► on the Mac side than on the iOS side.

00:12:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I think it's reasonable,

00:12:22 ◼   ► even though there's near radio silence on any details

00:12:26 ◼   ► of what new MacBooks of various price points

00:12:29 ◼   ► might be released this fall,

00:12:31 ◼   ► I think it's very reasonable for us,

00:12:32 ◼   ► as interested people in the market,

00:12:35 ◼   ► to be optimistic that in September or October,

00:12:39 ◼   ► Apple will have a lot to show us and say

00:12:42 ◼   ► about the entire lineup,

00:12:43 ◼   ► including some kind of modern update

00:12:47 ◼   ► to their entry-level machine.

00:12:50 ◼   ► - I sure hope so, and I think they will.

00:12:52 ◼   ► I think what they're showing us,

00:12:53 ◼   ► I've said this in ATP before,

00:12:54 ◼   ► it does seem like we're in an upswing for the Mac.

00:12:57 ◼   ► We're in a good time where they had,

00:13:00 ◼   ► they're talking about the Mac Pro

00:13:01 ◼   ► and the Pro Display coming up soon.

00:13:03 ◼   ► I hope those are awesome, and they probably will be.

00:13:06 ◼   ► The iMac Pro is awesome.

00:13:08 ◼   ► The 2018 MacBook Pros,

00:13:11 ◼   ► I still have a lot of problems with them

00:13:12 ◼   ► because there's still this body generation,

00:13:15 ◼   ► the touch bar, all the stuff I don't like,

00:13:16 ◼   ► the keyboard I still don't like.

00:13:17 ◼   ► But I give them credit,

00:13:19 ◼   ► they do seem to be moving in the right direction

00:13:23 ◼   ► in the last couple of years.

00:13:24 ◼   ► I think they have course corrected on the Mac.

00:13:27 ◼   ► And the software side too, there's tons of motion there

00:13:30 ◼   ► with things like Marzipan, those are major efforts

00:13:33 ◼   ► and those are gonna be majorly pushing the platform forward

00:13:36 ◼   ► and I cannot wait for that kind of stuff.

00:13:38 ◼   ► And so obviously, on the hardware side,

00:13:41 ◼   ► you look at things like the T2 chip

00:13:43 ◼   ► and how this is this pretty advanced controller

00:13:47 ◼   ► that they have in there that's doing all sorts of stuff

00:13:48 ◼   ► They didn't need to do that.

00:13:50 ◼   ► So I do think they're on the right path now.

00:13:53 ◼   ► But we still need to see, what does that mean on the laptops?

00:13:55 ◼   ► We still have no idea.

00:13:57 ◼   ► And maybe this fall, maybe whatever the new cheaper one

00:14:01 ◼   ► is, maybe I'm totally wrong.

00:14:03 ◼   ► My theory, as I said a few minutes ago,

00:14:05 ◼   ► is basically that they're going to half-ass it,

00:14:07 ◼   ► that they're going to cut out some specs from the MacBook

00:14:10 ◼   ► Escape as it is now to make a new 999 configuration.

00:14:13 ◼   ► Maybe give it a 128-gig disk or something.

00:14:17 ◼   ► Basically, skimp out as much as possible,

00:14:18 ◼   ► on everything to get that price down with still a margin that Apple will accept. Right.

00:14:24 ◼   ► But maybe I'm wrong. And maybe what they're going to do is do what the original MacBook

00:14:28 ◼   ► Air did, which is debut a new body style, like without without coming out and saying

00:14:32 ◼   ► so like, maybe what maybe they're actually doing an original design for this new cheap

00:14:37 ◼   ► laptop. And maybe that design will be a preview of what's to come for the rest of the lineup.

00:14:43 ◼   ► Yeah, and I always took it as a hint when they when they came out with the just plain

00:14:47 ◼   ► MacBook and it was just called just plain MacBook and it I forget what the starting price was originally

00:14:52 ◼   ► But I think it was like 1600 or something 15 14. I think there might have been like a 1400 config

00:14:56 ◼   ► Yeah, but it was bad you kind of you very quickly got over 1500 configuring one

00:15:02 ◼   ► I mean to be fair that first generation were all bad, right?

00:15:04 ◼   ► It's just I think that last year it barely became usable right because that that original atom processor was

00:15:12 ◼   ► really. Yeah, and the SSD was slow and everything like that. The 2017 model really improved

00:15:17 ◼   ► a lot. But I always thought that the name was a very strong signal that it would become

00:15:22 ◼   ► the new entry level model because of it just makes product marketing sense that the one

00:15:27 ◼   ► without any modifier, just plain MacBook would be the entry level, but it couldn't be when

00:15:32 ◼   ► it debuted because they made it so crazy thin and light that they had to use, you know,

00:15:40 ◼   ► expensive components, even though they were slow, etc.

00:15:44 ◼   ► It's just the only way to make it so insanely thin

00:15:46 ◼   ► compared to everything before it.

00:15:48 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:15:49 ◼   ► - That's possible, but I think maybe that was their goal,

00:15:51 ◼   ► I don't know, but I don't think that's ever going

00:15:53 ◼   ► to really be successful.

00:15:54 ◼   ► I don't see that product, the 12 inch with the one port,

00:15:57 ◼   ► I don't see that being the one that becomes

00:16:00 ◼   ► the new entry level mass market thing,

00:16:01 ◼   ► because there are so many trade-offs.

00:16:04 ◼   ► When the MacBook Air first came out,

00:16:06 ◼   ► it was $1,600, I think, or $1,700 for its base,

00:16:09 ◼   ► And it was very limited in the first one,

00:16:11 ◼   ► before the nice 2010 revision.

00:16:14 ◼   ► It couldn't be the bottom of the line,

00:16:17 ◼   ► because people buying the bottom of the line

00:16:19 ◼   ► still have needs, they still,

00:16:21 ◼   ► they're buying to hit a price point often,

00:16:23 ◼   ► but they still have practicality needs to worry about.

00:16:26 ◼   ► So with the MacBook Air originally,

00:16:30 ◼   ► that couldn't serve that purpose even if it were cheaper,

00:16:32 ◼   ► because it didn't have things like a DVD drive

00:16:34 ◼   ► that everyone needed, right?

00:16:35 ◼   ► And with the 12-inch MacBook today,

00:16:39 ◼   ► You could make an argument that like, well, it gives up all this stuff, it gives up a

00:16:43 ◼   ► lot of performance compared to the 15 watt chips that are in the MacBook Air and the

00:16:46 ◼   ► MacBook Escape.

00:16:47 ◼   ► It gives up all these ports, you know, even if you set aside things like the keyboard

00:16:51 ◼   ► that are controversial.

00:16:53 ◼   ► It gives up so much, but I don't see people ever saying, you know what, I only need one

00:16:57 ◼   ► port for my entry level laptop.

00:16:59 ◼   ► Like some people who are, you know, some people can choose that and say, you know, for my

00:17:03 ◼   ► travel laptop or whatever, I'm fine with that.

00:17:06 ◼   ► But people who are buying the entry level model

00:17:08 ◼   ► are the mass market.

00:17:09 ◼   ► And one of the reasons the MacBook Air keeps selling so well

00:17:13 ◼   ► is that compared to the MacBook,

00:17:15 ◼   ► it does have a whole bunch more ports and everything,

00:17:17 ◼   ► and it is more versatile and everything.

00:17:18 ◼   ► Before that, before the MacBook Air became

00:17:20 ◼   ► the role in the lineup, it was that MD101,

00:17:24 ◼   ► the 13-inch non-retina MacBook Pro

00:17:27 ◼   ► that still had the DVD drive.

00:17:29 ◼   ► Remember, they only stopped selling that,

00:17:30 ◼   ► like what, a year or two ago?

00:17:31 ◼   ► It was very recent, that 2012 model or something like that.

00:17:34 ◼   ► And before the Air, that was a suspiciously large seller

00:17:39 ◼   ► for the exact same reason, that it was very inexpensive,

00:17:44 ◼   ► it was also inexpensive to spec up,

00:17:47 ◼   ► 'cause it had a spinning disk and RAM slots,

00:17:50 ◼   ► so you could buy third-party stuff,

00:17:52 ◼   ► or even the stuff from Apple, you could get a lot of storage

00:17:53 ◼   ► for not that much money, and it had the optical drive

00:17:56 ◼   ► and had all the ports, and so people who didn't care

00:17:58 ◼   ► about retina, who didn't care about newness,

00:18:00 ◼   ► and who just wanted something very versatile

00:18:02 ◼   ► for like a thousand bucks or less,

00:18:04 ◼   ► they had that option with the 101.

00:18:06 ◼   ► Now optical drives are out of favor enough

00:18:09 ◼   ► that people don't need that anymore,

00:18:10 ◼   ► so they went to the MacBook Air.

00:18:12 ◼   ► But I don't see like 90% of your ports going away

00:18:16 ◼   ► being a thing that's gonna be so easily moved

00:18:18 ◼   ► into people's minds for that bottom of the line laptop.

00:18:21 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:18:22 ◼   ► Yeah, so what do we think Apple should do?

00:18:26 ◼   ► Like if you and I had been secretly recruited

00:18:29 ◼   ► to Apple's MacBook development team 18 months ago

00:18:33 ◼   ► so that we could have a lineup for the fall of 2018

00:18:37 ◼   ► ready to go.

00:18:38 ◼   ► I kind of-- (dog barks)

00:18:41 ◼   ► - [Nathan] Bob, come on, man.

00:18:42 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:18:42 ◼   ► - I kind of-- - We have a guest

00:18:44 ◼   ► in the room. - I kind of think we have,

00:18:45 ◼   ► we're on a similar page where the default machine should,

00:18:49 ◼   ► you know, at a 9.99 or even ideally,

00:18:52 ◼   ► if they could get back to 8.99 like they did

00:18:56 ◼   ► when they, thank you, when they had the 11-inch error

00:19:01 ◼   ► for $8.99 for a while.

00:19:05 ◼   ► And I think the reason they felt like they could do that,

00:19:07 ◼   ► 'cause that's a rare thing for any company to do,

00:19:10 ◼   ► is to raise the minimum price as significantly.

00:19:13 ◼   ► It used to be you could walk in

00:19:14 ◼   ► and get an $8.99 MacBook, the 11-inch,

00:19:17 ◼   ► and then they did away with it,

00:19:18 ◼   ► and the cheapest jumped $100 to $999.

00:19:23 ◼   ► And I feel like the reason they could do that

00:19:24 ◼   ► was that the 11-inch MacBook Air,

00:19:26 ◼   ► even though it was cheaper,

00:19:27 ◼   ► was always sort of a niche product.

00:19:29 ◼   ► Like-- - Yeah, it was so small.

00:19:30 ◼   ► - It was only for people who really,

00:19:32 ◼   ► and I had mine for years and truly loved it

00:19:34 ◼   ► because it was always a secondary machine for me,

00:19:36 ◼   ► and I truly loved the size and portability of it.

00:19:39 ◼   ► It's really one of my favorite machines I've ever owned.

00:19:41 ◼   ► But I think people who,

00:19:43 ◼   ► the typical person who's buying a laptop to be their PC,

00:19:47 ◼   ► that's it, this is the thing that's a real computer for them

00:19:51 ◼   ► don't want to sacrifice the screen real estate

00:19:54 ◼   ► and have a slightly smaller keyboard, et cetera.

00:19:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, the 13-inch air was always the mass market one.

00:19:58 ◼   ► - So I feel like the default machine

00:20:00 ◼   ► should be bigger than the 12-inch MacBook.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Should probably have a 13-inch screen.

00:20:05 ◼   ► It should have a few more ports,

00:20:07 ◼   ► but they're not gonna include USB-A ports,

00:20:10 ◼   ► even though I feel like they should.

00:20:12 ◼   ► I mean, we should only do a whole segment

00:20:14 ◼   ► on the failure of the USB-C market.

00:20:17 ◼   ► - I do want it on ATP almost every week.

00:20:19 ◼   ► - I know, I know. (laughing)

00:20:23 ◼   ► But I think it really shows with people's,

00:20:24 ◼   ► as the clamor, we're recording this

00:20:26 ◼   ► after the software update that fixed

00:20:28 ◼   ► the throttling gate with the Core i9.

00:20:32 ◼   ► So the people--

00:20:33 ◼   ► - Aren't you lucky that you missed that on the show?

00:20:35 ◼   ► Like you didn't have like,

00:20:36 ◼   ► if you had an episode like last week,

00:20:38 ◼   ► you would have had to like do what we did on ATP.

00:20:40 ◼   ► It was like, look at all these YouTube things

00:20:42 ◼   ► and Reddit things and try to figure out what's going on

00:20:44 ◼   ► and try to speculate.

00:20:45 ◼   ► I mean, we were wrong about like half of what we said.

00:20:47 ◼   ► - Well, I skipped it on Daring Fireball.

00:20:49 ◼   ► I just didn't, I don't even think I linked to it.

00:20:51 ◼   ► And I got a lot of people asking,

00:20:54 ◼   ► most of the feedback I got was just,

00:20:56 ◼   ► what do you think about this?

00:20:57 ◼   ► And I answered by email to some people.

00:21:00 ◼   ► But I just didn't link to it.

00:21:02 ◼   ► And then of course the accusations

00:21:04 ◼   ► that I wasn't linking to it

00:21:05 ◼   ► 'cause I'm in the bag for Apple

00:21:06 ◼   ► and I'm covering up this outrageous scandal.

00:21:11 ◼   ► My thought was,

00:21:12 ◼   ► we're sort of segwaying into the specific thing with this,

00:21:17 ◼   ► but my thought on that whole thing was,

00:21:19 ◼   ► there's just not enough evidence yet.

00:21:20 ◼   ► It just sounds to me like it's probably a bug,

00:21:23 ◼   ► and we'll know soon enough whether it's a bug

00:21:25 ◼   ► that can be fixed or a genuine serious engineering flaw.

00:21:28 ◼   ► And I'll decline to comment until there's more evidence

00:21:31 ◼   ► than one YouTube guy using one app, Premiere Pro,

00:21:36 ◼   ► which probably, the nature of which is probably

00:21:40 ◼   ► not that optimized for Macs, and evidence that's come out

00:21:44 ◼   ► since has shown that to be true.

00:21:46 ◼   ► - I mean, Adobe makes that, right?

00:21:47 ◼   ► So it's not optimized for anything.

00:21:48 ◼   ► - Right.

00:21:49 ◼   ► No, but I think, going back to your question a minute ago,

00:21:51 ◼   ► I think what would Apple need to do

00:21:53 ◼   ► to make the new MacBook Air replacement?

00:21:56 ◼   ► I think the MacBook Escape can almost be that.

00:21:58 ◼   ► It just needs a few changes.

00:21:59 ◼   ► And I know we're never getting USB-A back.

00:22:02 ◼   ► I'm not even arguing for USB-A anymore.

00:22:04 ◼   ► If you can fit one on the side of a laptop,

00:22:06 ◼   ► it is really nice for convenience.

00:22:07 ◼   ► But I know that's a lost battle,

00:22:09 ◼   ► so I'm not even saying they should do that.

00:22:12 ◼   ► I do argue for the SD card to be included

00:22:15 ◼   ► in the higher-end models.

00:22:16 ◼   ► I don't necessarily think it needs to be

00:22:18 ◼   ► in a MacBook Air replacement.

00:22:19 ◼   ► But I think what it does need, which it almost has,

00:22:22 ◼   ► is four ports and a lower price.

00:22:26 ◼   ► That's about it.

00:22:27 ◼   ► That's all it needs.

00:22:29 ◼   ► And I know they're probably not gonna give you

00:22:31 ◼   ► the four ports.

00:22:32 ◼   ► There's probably some limitation with Thunderbolt lanes

00:22:34 ◼   ► that are on the 15 watt, or PCI Express lanes

00:22:36 ◼   ► available on the 15 watt CPU line from Intel that it uses.

00:22:40 ◼   ► Like, it's probably something like that.

00:22:42 ◼   ► I still, there's so many problems with USB-C

00:22:45 ◼   ► that like, that this is even a problem.

00:22:46 ◼   ► Like, USB-A was never limited by Thunderbolt lane,

00:22:49 ◼   ► or by PCI Express lanes,

00:22:50 ◼   ► 'cause they didn't build Thunderbolt into every port,

00:22:51 ◼   ► because most people don't need that.

00:22:53 ◼   ► So here you are wasting one of your ports on power,

00:22:57 ◼   ► and wasting another one on charging your iPhone,

00:23:00 ◼   ► and you can't have more ports,

00:23:01 ◼   ► because they need all the bandwidth

00:23:02 ◼   ► for the Thunderbolt 3 lanes that you're not using.

00:23:04 ◼   ► So that's a weird engineering trade-off

00:23:06 ◼   ► they made to begin with,

00:23:07 ◼   ► but I think that's all it really needs,

00:23:09 ◼   ► and I think that's plausible.

00:23:11 ◼   ► The four port thing is a risk,

00:23:12 ◼   ► but just making a version of the escape

00:23:14 ◼   ► that has cheaper pricing somehow,

00:23:18 ◼   ► somehow with market segmentation that they can do it,

00:23:20 ◼   ► I don't know, but the current laptop line,

00:23:24 ◼   ► like the new generation, if you exclude the old models

00:23:26 ◼   ► they're still selling, like the Air,

00:23:28 ◼   ► the new line is so expensive compared to the old ones.

00:23:31 ◼   ► That's a problem for them, I think,

00:23:35 ◼   ► in the way their products look, the way they're perceived.

00:23:37 ◼   ► I mean, they've always been perceived as being expensive,

00:23:40 ◼   ► but I think this is getting to the point of being egregious,

00:23:43 ◼   ► and it's getting more and more distant

00:23:45 ◼   ► from what people expect to pay for such a thing.

00:23:48 ◼   ► And then the low end kind of rotting out here

00:23:51 ◼   ► and being neglected for so long is not helping that at all.

00:23:54 ◼   ► So they need to make a good low end play.

00:23:57 ◼   ► And you're gonna have people who make

00:24:00 ◼   ► like the $200 iPhone argument a bit,

00:24:02 ◼   ► oh they don't have to do that,

00:24:03 ◼   ► they're just serving the market.

00:24:04 ◼   ► But like a huge part of Mac market share

00:24:06 ◼   ► is those like $1,000 MacBook Airs.

00:24:08 ◼   ► And those are getting really long in the tooth.

00:24:11 ◼   ► They have to replace them with something

00:24:12 ◼   ► and it really should be as soon as possible.

00:24:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think it comes down to naming again,

00:24:19 ◼   ► just to go back to where we started,

00:24:21 ◼   ► is the MacBook Escape should not be called a MacBook Pro,

00:24:26 ◼   ► in my opinion, and it's not.

00:24:30 ◼   ► I mean, it is a cut below,

00:24:33 ◼   ► other than the fact that the aluminum frame

00:24:36 ◼   ► is exactly the same as the 13-inch MacBook Pros,

00:24:42 ◼   ► touch bar versus actual physical function keys aside,

00:24:46 ◼   ► and it has the same display, but internally,

00:24:49 ◼   ► you know, it's got a lower, a lesser CPU,

00:24:52 ◼   ► it has lesser graphics, it costs less.

00:24:55 ◼   ► It's not a MacBook Pro, it should be called something else.

00:24:59 ◼   ► I guess I see why they called it a MacBook Pro,

00:25:02 ◼   ► because it does look the same,

00:25:03 ◼   ► and it was introduced alongside them.

00:25:05 ◼   ► - It's also a great computer.

00:25:06 ◼   ► Like, I have one for a little while.

00:25:07 ◼   ► - Right.

00:25:08 ◼   ► - I love that escape.

00:25:09 ◼   ► The only reason, the only things I hated about it

00:25:11 ◼   ► were that I did have keyboard problems with it.

00:25:13 ◼   ► I had a bunch of like stuck keys

00:25:14 ◼   ► and weird popping and everything.

00:25:15 ◼   ► And so I did have keyboard problems with it

00:25:17 ◼   ► and the two ports were really annoying on trips.

00:25:19 ◼   ► Like when I would travel, I'd wanna like

00:25:21 ◼   ► do travel podcasting or charge stuff on my laptop

00:25:23 ◼   ► and only having two ports was pretty limiting.

00:25:26 ◼   ► But other than that, I loved that computer.

00:25:27 ◼   ► It was great and that's why I ordered a 13 inch

00:25:29 ◼   ► of the new one but I ordered the Touch Bar one

00:25:31 ◼   ► because I wanted the ports.

00:25:32 ◼   ► But like, I think the reason they called it Pro

00:25:35 ◼   ► was I think more, you know, because it visually

00:25:38 ◼   ► resembled the other 13 inch Pro just fine.

00:25:41 ◼   ► and also I think because they wanted to help justify

00:25:44 ◼   ► the cost increase, because it really was just a MacBook Air,

00:25:47 ◼   ► but they increased the cost so much,

00:25:49 ◼   ► I felt like they, that was my guess of why they did it.

00:25:51 ◼   ► But ultimately, if I was in charge of this product line,

00:25:54 ◼   ► of naming this product line,

00:25:55 ◼   ► I wouldn't want any responsibility,

00:25:56 ◼   ► 'cause they would fire me immediately.

00:25:57 ◼   ► But if I was in charge of naming this product line,

00:25:59 ◼   ► and I guess I'd be fired from that too,

00:26:01 ◼   ► but I don't think they would call it the MacBook One

00:26:03 ◼   ► or the MacBook Escape, but I think I would say

00:26:07 ◼   ► The MacBook Air brand is too strong to throw away

00:26:11 ◼   ► when this generation stops being sold.

00:26:13 ◼   ► I think something should always be called the MacBook Air

00:26:15 ◼   ► because it's such a good name

00:26:17 ◼   ► and it has such brand equity among consumers.

00:26:20 ◼   ► So what I would say is rename the 12-inch MacBook

00:26:24 ◼   ► MacBook Air with its next generation

00:26:26 ◼   ► and say this is the new MacBook Air,

00:26:28 ◼   ► it's the 12-inch MacBook.

00:26:29 ◼   ► Rename the MacBook Escape to simply MacBook.

00:26:32 ◼   ► - I could see that.

00:26:34 ◼   ► I mean, there is some sense to that,

00:26:35 ◼   ► especially if they could get a 12-inch MacBook down to $999,

00:26:39 ◼   ► which I kind of think it might be their plan.

00:26:41 ◼   ► - Well, that doesn't even mean what I'm arguing.

00:26:42 ◼   ► I'm saying bring the escape, bring the 13-inch

00:26:45 ◼   ► down to that level. - Deny it again.

00:26:46 ◼   ► - Call it the MacBook.

00:26:48 ◼   ► And because right now you have this conflation

00:26:51 ◼   ► of the lowest end product is also the smallest,

00:26:54 ◼   ► thinnest, and lightest.

00:26:56 ◼   ► But that requires such trade-offs

00:26:57 ◼   ► that a lot of the low-end buyers aren't willing to make

00:26:59 ◼   ► that that shouldn't be the lowest end product.

00:27:02 ◼   ► It should be, the low-end product should be

00:27:04 ◼   ► to hit a price point, not to hit a size.

00:27:06 ◼   ► And so that's why the Escape should be the low end product,

00:27:09 ◼   ► it should be called the MacBook.

00:27:10 ◼   ► The MacBook Air should be the little 12 inch

00:27:13 ◼   ► super thin one, and then MacBook Pro

00:27:15 ◼   ► is the higher priced, higher powered one.

00:27:17 ◼   ► - And the 13 inch MacBook Escape,

00:27:19 ◼   ► well all the 13 inch, my current MacBook Pros are,

00:27:22 ◼   ► and Apple themselves emphasized this

00:27:25 ◼   ► when they introduced them,

00:27:26 ◼   ► only like two sheets of paper heavier than a MacBook Air.

00:27:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's about the same.

00:27:32 ◼   ► They are technically an ounce hot,

00:27:35 ◼   ► heavier or something like that.

00:27:36 ◼   ► - But I think it's grams.

00:27:37 ◼   ► It's like it's so small.

00:27:39 ◼   ► - Right, like you could probably even it up

00:27:42 ◼   ► just by getting some sweat and some crumbs

00:27:45 ◼   ► on your MacBook Air and then they'd be the same.

00:27:48 ◼   ► The one where the keyboard would still work.

00:27:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, just keep the crumbs away from the new one.

00:27:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, we'll keep going on this.

00:27:56 ◼   ► Let me take a break and thank our first sponsor.

00:27:58 ◼   ► This is gonna be good.

00:27:59 ◼   ► I think the sponsor's, it's coincidence,

00:28:01 ◼   ► sort of, but it's kind of fun.

00:28:04 ◼   ► There's, every single one of them is actually in use today.

00:28:08 ◼   ► Our first one is Tres Pontas Coffee.

00:28:11 ◼   ► I'm drinking it right now.

00:28:13 ◼   ► Marco can vouch for it.

00:28:15 ◼   ► This is in the Arment household.

00:28:17 ◼   ► There is Tres Pontas Coffee.

00:28:18 ◼   ► - And I didn't order it because you were coming.

00:28:20 ◼   ► I ordered it like long before

00:28:22 ◼   ► I knew you were gonna be here.

00:28:23 ◼   ► I ordered it by my own volition.

00:28:25 ◼   ► They aren't a sponsor of my show.

00:28:26 ◼   ► I ordered it only because they were a sponsor of this show.

00:28:28 ◼   ► - And we, you know, I've been here a few days

00:28:30 ◼   ► and we have been drinking some of Marco's own,

00:28:34 ◼   ► Marco roasted coffee, but it was all gone.

00:28:37 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:28:38 ◼   ► And the only other coffee in the house.

00:28:40 ◼   ► - Turns out the groupers drink a lot of coffee.

00:28:42 ◼   ► - No. (laughing)

00:28:44 ◼   ► One of the groupers drinks a lot of coffee.

00:28:47 ◼   ► I am drinking it right now.

00:28:49 ◼   ► It comes from a single family farm in Tres Pontas,

00:28:53 ◼   ► in the town of Tres Pontas in Brazil,

00:28:57 ◼   ► hence the name Tres Pontas.

00:28:59 ◼   ► They only have one variety of beans.

00:29:01 ◼   ► And it's very simple.

00:29:03 ◼   ► They have four roasts, light, medium, dark,

00:29:06 ◼   ► and then French roast.

00:29:07 ◼   ► What are we drinking?

00:29:08 ◼   ► I don't even know.

00:29:09 ◼   ► I'm guessing light.

00:29:10 ◼   ► - No, I think it's medium.

00:29:11 ◼   ► It's either medium or like the slightly dark one.

00:29:13 ◼   ► 'Cause usually I like my coffee a little dark,

00:29:15 ◼   ► but not too dark.

00:29:16 ◼   ► So I would've gotten one of those too.

00:29:18 ◼   ► - I prefer the medium, I think, at home,

00:29:20 ◼   ► 'cause they've sent me all of them.

00:29:21 ◼   ► And I'm just not a French roast person.

00:29:24 ◼   ► I find the French roast to be terrible.

00:29:26 ◼   ► But people who like French roasts might like it because--

00:29:28 ◼   ► - Spoiler, every French roast is terrible.

00:29:30 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:29:32 ◼   ► - That's my opinion as well.

00:29:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is the medium.

00:29:34 ◼   ► - But it's kind of a neat thing,

00:29:35 ◼   ► where you don't have to select the beans,

00:29:37 ◼   ► you just select the roast style,

00:29:38 ◼   ► which in a lot of cases, in my opinion,

00:29:40 ◼   ► is really the biggest difference.

00:29:41 ◼   ► If you're starting with good beans,

00:29:43 ◼   ► which is half the battle,

00:29:46 ◼   ► but then just get it roasted the way you like it.

00:29:48 ◼   ► That's your choice.

00:29:49 ◼   ► - People always ask me, where do you get good beans?

00:29:51 ◼   ► And what it really comes down to is not what brand name

00:29:54 ◼   ► is on them or anything, what it really comes down to is,

00:29:56 ◼   ► how well is it roasted?

00:29:57 ◼   ► and they give you the option for that,

00:29:59 ◼   ► and how freshly is it roasted?

00:30:01 ◼   ► And they solve that problem as well.

00:30:03 ◼   ► - Right, their coffee is very fresh.

00:30:06 ◼   ► That is their main thing.

00:30:07 ◼   ► They ship all the stuff out themselves.

00:30:10 ◼   ► Marco can vouch for this.

00:30:11 ◼   ► I say it every time Trace Ponta sponsors the show.

00:30:13 ◼   ► Coffee is a perishable item.

00:30:16 ◼   ► This is why it is good to buy whole beans.

00:30:18 ◼   ► This is why it's good to get a nice grinder.

00:30:21 ◼   ► And this is why it is great to get something

00:30:25 ◼   ► like a coffee subscription, which Trace Pontas offers,

00:30:29 ◼   ► to just keep fresh beans coming to you at a regular basis.

00:30:33 ◼   ► Now, it's not like, I don't know, like an avocado

00:30:36 ◼   ► or something like that where it can quickly go bad.

00:30:38 ◼   ► It's not that perishable, but you don't want stuff

00:30:40 ◼   ► that's been sitting around on shelves for weeks and weeks

00:30:43 ◼   ► or even months like you might get in the supermarket.

00:30:45 ◼   ► So, here's what you can do to get Trace Pontas.

00:30:47 ◼   ► You can go to their website, tracepontas.com,

00:30:53 ◼   ► and just order a bag or a couple of bags

00:30:55 ◼   ► or something like that to give it a shot.

00:30:57 ◼   ► You can also go to Amazon and search for it,

00:31:00 ◼   ► and you can get it there if it's more convenient

00:31:02 ◼   ► because then you can do the old one-click thing.

00:31:04 ◼   ► And when you buy Tres Pontas coffee on Amazon,

00:31:06 ◼   ► they're just using Amazon as a storefront.

00:31:08 ◼   ► They still fulfill it themselves.

00:31:10 ◼   ► It's not coming out of an Amazon warehouse

00:31:12 ◼   ► somewhere where it's been sitting on the shelves.

00:31:13 ◼   ► Tres Pontas still fulfills it.

00:31:14 ◼   ► They just go through Amazon for the convenience of it.

00:31:18 ◼   ► And the other thing they have

00:31:19 ◼   ► is you can get a coffee subscription,

00:31:22 ◼   ► and you get fresh-reroasted beans sent to you every one,

00:31:25 ◼   ► two, or four weeks, your choice when you sign up

00:31:28 ◼   ► for the subscription, and you save 10%

00:31:31 ◼   ► when you get a subscription compared to the regular price

00:31:34 ◼   ► of the coffee, but listeners of the talk show

00:31:36 ◼   ► get an extra 10% off by using the code "THETALKSHOW"

00:31:39 ◼   ► at checkout when buying a coffee subscription.

00:31:43 ◼   ► So you save a total of 20% off every bag with that code.

00:31:47 ◼   ► - I hope I used your code.

00:31:49 ◼   ► - I don't know, enter the code at checkout,

00:31:51 ◼   ► That's where you do it if you're looking for it.

00:31:53 ◼   ► And again, their website is traspontas.com.

00:31:57 ◼   ► T-R-E-S-P-O-N-T-A-S.com.

00:32:02 ◼   ► Picking up where we dropped off.

00:32:06 ◼   ► So I think that Apple has fallen too in love

00:32:08 ◼   ► with the name MacBook Pro to obsess on naming.

00:32:11 ◼   ► And I think it's exemplified with the iMac Pro.

00:32:16 ◼   ► Like what is the difference between a 5K,

00:32:19 ◼   ► 27 inch regular iMac and the iMac Pro?

00:32:24 ◼   ► Well, there's the cosmetic difference

00:32:27 ◼   ► where it's space gray, which also, of course,

00:32:30 ◼   ► makes it run a little faster.

00:32:32 ◼   ► And you get the black mouse and the black keyboard.

00:32:37 ◼   ► - Maybe some racing stripes might make it

00:32:39 ◼   ► even like 10% faster.

00:32:40 ◼   ► - But joking aside, but it is the same display.

00:32:43 ◼   ► But the regular iMac has a great display

00:32:46 ◼   ► that is great for totally professional use,

00:32:48 ◼   ► graphic designers, all sorts of people,

00:32:49 ◼   ► or photographers and stuff like that.

00:32:52 ◼   ► All the real difference,

00:32:53 ◼   ► the reason it's so much more expensive

00:32:55 ◼   ► than a regular iMac has to do with technical details

00:32:57 ◼   ► that are genuinely professional components.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Xeon processors versus whatever the retail,

00:33:05 ◼   ► I don't even know what they're called.

00:33:06 ◼   ► - i9s and i7s.

00:33:07 ◼   ► - Right, whatever they are, who cares?

00:33:11 ◼   ► and that's like about 40% is just Intel marketing BS.

00:33:15 ◼   ► - The iMac Pro, I've already forgotten,

00:33:17 ◼   ► but I'm pretty sure it uses the different kind of RAM.

00:33:20 ◼   ► - Yep, ECC.

00:33:21 ◼   ► - ECC RAM, all sorts of stuff like that,

00:33:23 ◼   ► that truly are pro components.

00:33:26 ◼   ► And all sorts of other industries

00:33:30 ◼   ► have similar type distinctions.

00:33:32 ◼   ► Like one I'm vaguely familiar with

00:33:34 ◼   ► as a amateur photo enthusiast is like when you buy,

00:33:40 ◼   ► get into the canon ecosystem of cameras and they have their L series of lenses. I don't

00:33:45 ◼   ► even know what L stands for. Do you know? I don't I have no idea. All I know is that

00:33:49 ◼   ► it means expensive, right? Bring in good, right? Well, and the white some if they're

00:33:53 ◼   ► not entirely black, though L series often has like a white part to it there. You know,

00:33:58 ◼   ► if you know what to look at the telephotos are all white, right? The telephone, the big

00:34:01 ◼   ► long telephotos on sticks that you see at sporting games are all very intentionally

00:34:05 ◼   ► white with a red ring on the outside. And if you're just looking, you know, a typical

00:34:09 ◼   ► punter, as they would say in the UK.

00:34:11 ◼   ► Just looking for a nice camera and you're willing to spend

00:34:15 ◼   ► up to like $2,000 on the whole kit,

00:34:18 ◼   ► you're not looking at L series lenses.

00:34:20 ◼   ► They're for pros.

00:34:21 ◼   ► And there's just no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

00:34:24 ◼   ► - And it isn't just about price.

00:34:25 ◼   ► It's about like they add features that a lot of consumers

00:34:29 ◼   ► wouldn't care about that pros really need.

00:34:31 ◼   ► - Right, well, and they also add downsides

00:34:35 ◼   ► that amateurs would be annoyed by.

00:34:37 ◼   ► So like they're big and heavy, they're expensive.

00:34:39 ◼   ► - Everybody always says, so famously, everybody says,

00:34:42 ◼   ► you wanna get serious about photography

00:34:44 ◼   ► and you have an interchangeable lens camera,

00:34:46 ◼   ► you gotta get a 50 millimeter,

00:34:48 ◼   ► or equivalent if you're using different sensors.

00:34:50 ◼   ► If you're talking in 35 millimeter sensor size,

00:34:53 ◼   ► get a 50 millimeter fixed lens

00:34:54 ◼   ► and stick that on your camera for a few months

00:34:57 ◼   ► and don't even take it off

00:34:59 ◼   ► and just learn to shoot with that one lens.

00:35:01 ◼   ► So, and the quote unquote nifty 50 is like $100.

00:35:07 ◼   ► You get an F and it's way better lens, you know, optically because a 50 millimeter fixed

00:35:13 ◼   ► lens.

00:35:14 ◼   ► Anyway, there's also a like three or $400 50 millimeter lens, which is just made out.

00:35:19 ◼   ► It's less plastic.

00:35:21 ◼   ► It's sturdier.

00:35:22 ◼   ► It's, it's better, but it's not that heavy.

00:35:23 ◼   ► And then there's the L series one, which I bought because I'm an idiot because it goes

00:35:28 ◼   ► all the way down to F 1.2.

00:35:31 ◼   ► So it's, you know, even more, even better in low light and it weighs like six times

00:35:36 ◼   ► more. It is a very, very heavy piece of glass. You know, it's a pro-level 50mm lens, but

00:35:44 ◼   ► you pay a price that a typical consumer wouldn't. And a photographer of my abilities, I'm not

00:35:51 ◼   ► really capturing better images with that lens than I would be with the $400 50mm lens. That's

00:35:58 ◼   ► a lot lighter. I was just an idiot.

00:35:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, and yeah, we have that 1.2L as well.

00:36:04 ◼   ► Tiff bought it because you bought it, thanks a lot.

00:36:06 ◼   ► - Well, I got it 'cause of Dr. Wave.

00:36:09 ◼   ► - We can all blame Dr. Wave, thanks a lot.

00:36:11 ◼   ► But yeah, and we also, before that, we had the 1.4,

00:36:15 ◼   ► which was a $300 one, and it was totally fine.

00:36:18 ◼   ► And in fact, in some ways, the Pro one was worse.

00:36:21 ◼   ► 'Cause not only is it bigger, heavier,

00:36:22 ◼   ► and like four times the price,

00:36:24 ◼   ► but it also, I think, focused a little bit more slowly.

00:36:27 ◼   ► 'Cause there was so much more glass to move.

00:36:29 ◼   ► everything about it, it was worse in some pretty key ways,

00:36:33 ◼   ► but the reason why pros would want that

00:36:35 ◼   ► is because it was optically noticeably better,

00:36:38 ◼   ► it could go down to 1.2 if you actually needed that,

00:36:41 ◼   ► although almost nobody does.

00:36:42 ◼   ► It was probably at least slightly weather sealed,

00:36:45 ◼   ► which is another thing that the consumer lenses don't,

00:36:47 ◼   ► they hardly ever are, and most people don't need that,

00:36:51 ◼   ► but if you're shooting a sports game,

00:36:55 ◼   ► you wouldn't be using a 50 millimeter prime,

00:36:56 ◼   ► but assuming you were, a lot of pro contexts

00:36:59 ◼   ► need, you know, weather sealing, more rugged abilities, different warranties, stuff like that.

00:37:03 ◼   ► Trenton Larkin The big one on weather sealing for

00:37:05 ◼   ► for pros are pros who go out in the field where there's dirt, sand, and things like that. And the

00:37:10 ◼   ► weather sealing keeps stuff like that out. When you cannot, you're on assignment from

00:37:15 ◼   ► National Geographic, and you're in the middle of desert in Africa, you can't get your lens fixed

00:37:22 ◼   ► until you're gone. And it's, you know, you can't just like, oh, zip over to the camera shop and get

00:37:27 ◼   ► a replacement. You need that reliability. Yeah, that example is a wonderful reason why this

00:37:33 ◼   ► MacBook Pro keyboard is so problematic. I shouldn't speak so poorly of that 50mm lens,

00:37:38 ◼   ► because what I should do is sell it, and here I am telling the people who are most likely to buy it,

00:37:43 ◼   ► the listeners of my show, that I kind of think it's a waste of money. Because the other reason

00:37:46 ◼   ► I regret it in hindsight is that the sensitivity of the ISO sensitivity of digital sensors continues

00:37:56 ◼   ► to get so much better, so much faster,

00:38:00 ◼   ► that even in just like 18 months after I bought that lens,

00:38:03 ◼   ► like five or six years ago,

00:38:05 ◼   ► I could get better low-light pictures

00:38:07 ◼   ► with the lighter weight camera just by getting a new camera.

00:38:11 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:38:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, like I haven't shot anything below f/2.8 in years.

00:38:16 ◼   ► - Right, well.

00:38:17 ◼   ► - And even that, usually I'm up around like 4, 5.6

00:38:20 ◼   ► because I'm much more likely to miss the focus slightly

00:38:24 ◼   ► than I am to need the higher speeds.

00:38:27 ◼   ► And so for me, it's much more important

00:38:30 ◼   ► to set the aperture a little bit narrower

00:38:32 ◼   ► to increase the chances that my subject will be in focus.

00:38:34 ◼   ► - Anyway, to get back to MacBook Pros.

00:38:37 ◼   ► MacBook Pros are being used by people in totally,

00:38:42 ◼   ► like the iMac of the MacBook lineup

00:38:45 ◼   ► are the lower end 13-inch MacBook Pros, right?

00:38:49 ◼   ► They're the standard, just like a really nice

00:38:52 ◼   ► retina display, fast MacBook computer,

00:38:57 ◼   ► but they're called MacBook Pros,

00:38:59 ◼   ► and I kind of feel that's boxed Apple into a corner.

00:39:03 ◼   ► To go to this specific machine that I'm touching right now,

00:39:07 ◼   ► the Core i9 highest end, 15-inch MacBook Pro,

00:39:11 ◼   ► there is no real, there's no iMac Pro

00:39:15 ◼   ► of the MacBook lineup anymore.

00:39:17 ◼   ► There is no big jump like the way,

00:39:21 ◼   ► in technical ways, the ways that the iMac Pro

00:39:24 ◼   ► is truly remarkably capable compared to a high-end,

00:39:29 ◼   ► regular iMac, there is no jump like that

00:39:32 ◼   ► in the MacBook Pro lineup.

00:39:34 ◼   ► - Well, maybe there kind of is.

00:39:35 ◼   ► So there is no real equivalent to the iMac Pro

00:39:38 ◼   ► in things like the Xeon CPU,

00:39:40 ◼   ► like using a workstation grade processor and everything.

00:39:43 ◼   ► Yeah, there is none of that,

00:39:44 ◼   ► but in some ways you could argue that the 13 inch

00:39:48 ◼   ► and 15 inch are much more like the 5K iMac.

00:39:51 ◼   ► in the iMac Pro in the sense that they use high-end

00:39:54 ◼   ► but mostly still consumer parts.

00:39:56 ◼   ► But I wonder if things, obviously the touch bar,

00:39:59 ◼   ► if Apple's keeping it around,

00:40:01 ◼   ► honestly I still hope they don't,

00:40:02 ◼   ► but if they are keeping it around,

00:40:04 ◼   ► that is probably gonna be maintained as a Pro feature,

00:40:06 ◼   ► although I honestly think that makes no sense as one.

00:40:09 ◼   ► But what about things like the T2?

00:40:11 ◼   ► 'Cause the T2, they introduced it in the iMac Pro,

00:40:13 ◼   ► now it's in the 13 and 15 inch touch bar with this ear.

00:40:17 ◼   ► Maybe that doesn't go down the line.

00:40:19 ◼   ► maybe the T2 is only like, you know, it has that, it has that faster disk controller,

00:40:26 ◼   ► it has more advanced encryption and security, things like FileVault are like quote free

00:40:30 ◼   ► now. So what if the T2 is the segmentation since like the Xeon can't be anymore? But

00:40:37 ◼   ► you know, they still, if you're going to draw that distinction, I think the place you draw

00:40:41 ◼   ► it right now is clear. The place you draw it right now is TouchBar and above is pro

00:40:46 ◼   ► and escape and MacBook are not,

00:40:48 ◼   ► which is just all the more reason why I think

00:40:52 ◼   ► renaming the MacBook escape to MacBook,

00:40:55 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:40:56 ◼   ► that makes so much more sense than what they're doing now.

00:40:58 ◼   ► Because right now, by having almost all of the laptops

00:41:03 ◼   ► that are recent models be named MacBook Pro,

00:41:06 ◼   ► it's like what would anger Merlin would be like

00:41:10 ◼   ► if all the items in a to-do list were marked high priority.

00:41:14 ◼   ► That's kind of how it is.

00:41:15 ◼   ► It's like, these are all the best MacBooks.

00:41:17 ◼   ► Well, no, they're obviously not.

00:41:18 ◼   ► That's not how that works.

00:41:20 ◼   ► You have to draw that line somewhere.

00:41:22 ◼   ► And just saying that the bottom end one you have,

00:41:25 ◼   ► this 12 inch one, just saying that is not pro

00:41:28 ◼   ► makes no sense at all.

00:41:29 ◼   ► - Right.

00:41:30 ◼   ► To get into the specifics of this model,

00:41:35 ◼   ► the thing that still has people,

00:41:38 ◼   ► has, what is it, a Beezerner bonnet,

00:41:40 ◼   ► is this idea that the Core i9 in this machine

00:41:44 ◼   ► is not, even post bug fix, is not running,

00:41:48 ◼   ► is not maintaining its highest base level of performance

00:41:52 ◼   ► as long as it theoretically could,

00:41:55 ◼   ► and as long as the same processor does

00:41:58 ◼   ► in certain PC laptops that are typically described

00:42:02 ◼   ► as gaming laptops because they're like five or six pounds

00:42:05 ◼   ► and very thick because they have it,

00:42:07 ◼   ► just cooling systems, it's all about cooling

00:42:10 ◼   ► and to have a cooling system that can let it run

00:42:14 ◼   ► at clock speeds that it's capable of,

00:42:18 ◼   ► it is impossible in today's world

00:42:20 ◼   ► to do it in this form factor.

00:42:21 ◼   ► So in theory, what some people obviously

00:42:25 ◼   ► are dying for Apple to do, and I don't think

00:42:27 ◼   ► they're going to do, is make a thicker 15-inch,

00:42:29 ◼   ► or go back to 17-inch, or something like that,

00:42:32 ◼   ► to make a bigger, heavier system that can just,

00:42:34 ◼   ► all I want is for it to run as fast as it can.

00:42:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, and back when this controversy

00:42:42 ◼   ► was erupting last week, I was more perturbed than I am now

00:42:46 ◼   ► about the fact that it wasn't maintaining the base clock.

00:42:48 ◼   ► Now I know more about how this stuff works

00:42:50 ◼   ► than I knew last week, and now I know things like

00:42:54 ◼   ► how modern Intel CPUs in the high-end laptop like this

00:42:58 ◼   ► almost never can maintain their base clock

00:43:00 ◼   ► for long periods of time.

00:43:01 ◼   ► Almost all of them, even last year's models,

00:43:03 ◼   ► like ever since Kaby Lake and now Coffee Lake,

00:43:06 ◼   ► these processors are, because of Intel's problems

00:43:08 ◼   ► moving away from 14 nanometer, these processors

00:43:11 ◼   ► are cramming way more transistors

00:43:14 ◼   ► and way higher clock speeds

00:43:15 ◼   ► into this old manufacturing technology

00:43:18 ◼   ► than what it was ever intended for

00:43:19 ◼   ► and what these laptops were intended for.

00:43:21 ◼   ► So Intel is really pushing the boundaries

00:43:23 ◼   ► to try to get better performing chips out every year

00:43:27 ◼   ► when they can't move forward on their process yet.

00:43:30 ◼   ► That the laptops are having to deal

00:43:32 ◼   ► with higher and higher thermals.

00:43:34 ◼   ► And so part of my easing on my anger on this

00:43:39 ◼   ► was just learning that, yeah,

00:43:41 ◼   ► is actually not new, that many of the laptops recently can't maintain max base clock under

00:43:46 ◼   ► parallel workloads for more than a half hour or something like that. But also I've learned

00:43:51 ◼   ► that the PC world is having the exact same struggles. That like, it is, and this doesn't

00:43:55 ◼   ► necessarily make it okay, but it is nice to know, like it isn't just Apple messing up

00:43:58 ◼   ► here, that other PC laptops that are considered like thin lights that have these processes

00:44:05 ◼   ► in them are actually in worse shape usually, that usually that either they cool it worse

00:44:10 ◼   ► they're cooling these same chips at two roughly the same performance level, but with more

00:44:15 ◼   ► noise. And so the only thing that Apple is not competing well against here is what you

00:44:21 ◼   ► mentioned, basically, the gaming laptops, which are really like, they look ridiculous.

00:44:25 ◼   ► I mean, I've never even seen one in real life. But I've seen like the pictures of like, they

00:44:28 ◼   ► they're basically like an inch thick on the bottom. And they have these giant vents on

00:44:32 ◼   ► all the sides. And they're apparently very loud, because of course, they'd have to fit

00:44:35 ◼   ► it like a big fan. They have to be very loud. And so like, that's something that like, what

00:44:39 ◼   ► - What aspect of that description

00:44:41 ◼   ► is the most offensive to Apple?

00:44:44 ◼   ► I don't know if Johnny Ive is a noise nut,

00:44:48 ◼   ► but he probably is.

00:44:50 ◼   ► That's one thing I don't know if I can say about him.

00:44:52 ◼   ► We certainly know what his aesthetic tastes are.

00:44:55 ◼   ► And thicker, heavier, big grill type vent.

00:45:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, Apple's been doing very well

00:45:02 ◼   ► for years on keeping their stuff quiet.

00:45:05 ◼   ► They've been great on fan noise,

00:45:07 ◼   ► and they'd be getting better and better at it.

00:45:09 ◼   ► And so, that's why one of the reasons I'm so impressed

00:45:11 ◼   ► by the iMac Pro is that it is silent

00:45:14 ◼   ► with everything I throw at it.

00:45:16 ◼   ► I've only heard of people saying if you max out

00:45:18 ◼   ► the CPU and the GPU, then you can hear the fan.

00:45:21 ◼   ► I've never done that.

00:45:22 ◼   ► I just max out the CPU and the GPU sets mostly idle.

00:45:24 ◼   ► So you can do whatever you want to the CPU and the iMac Pro

00:45:26 ◼   ► and you won't hear it, it's fantastic.

00:45:28 ◼   ► And so, yeah, those giant gaming laptops,

00:45:31 ◼   ► that's not a product Apple's ever gonna make.

00:45:32 ◼   ► Even if the market demands it,

00:45:34 ◼   ► they will never be able to swallow their Apple-ness

00:45:37 ◼   ► and make that, they would not do that.

00:45:40 ◼   ► - I don't know if Johnny Ive in particular is a noise

00:45:42 ◼   ► and I suspect he is,

00:45:43 ◼   ► but I know that Apple institutionally is,

00:45:46 ◼   ► and that's part of, one of the most fun things I've done

00:45:49 ◼   ► in recent years was the behind the scenes tour

00:45:51 ◼   ► of their audio testing lab,

00:45:53 ◼   ► either right before or right after HomePod came out,

00:45:57 ◼   ► I think right before.

00:45:58 ◼   ► But you guys remember, it was earlier this year,

00:46:01 ◼   ► like March I think, maybe February,

00:46:04 ◼   ► a bunch of us in the media were invited to Apple and they gave us this tour of an entire building

00:46:10 ◼   ► on, you know, right across the street from the old infinite loop, where all they do is test. I mean,

00:46:18 ◼   ► they had all new rooms just for the HomePod, amazing new rooms that they built specifically

00:46:23 ◼   ► and only for HomePod. But the whole room, the whole team started as a place where they took

00:46:31 ◼   ► all of their products. They even tested the ambient noise that an iPod made back when

00:46:37 ◼   ► the iPods made noise because they had hard drives, these little tiny microwave-sized

00:46:43 ◼   ► anechoic chambers where they'd put an iPod and have it play and test to make it quiet.

00:46:48 ◼   ► So the idea that they're going to make something that, fan noise aside, it'll run a Core i9 as fast

00:46:56 ◼   ► as theoretically possible, that's never going to happen.

00:46:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, basically, I think one of the conclusions

00:47:01 ◼   ► I've come to with this whole i9 throttling thing

00:47:04 ◼   ► is that laptops, if you want a very high performance laptop,

00:47:09 ◼   ► it's a bigger compromise than it's ever been.

00:47:12 ◼   ► Because you can't, in what people want in laptops,

00:47:16 ◼   ► which is they want them to be as portable as possible,

00:47:18 ◼   ► they want them to be reasonably lightweight,

00:47:20 ◼   ► they don't want them to be super thick

00:47:21 ◼   ► and covered in vents unless they're gamers,

00:47:22 ◼   ► but that market is well served elsewhere.

00:47:25 ◼   ► So what people want in a laptop is completely at odds with what a high performance system

00:47:30 ◼   ► needs in terms of thermals, battery, power, and noise. And so the path to happiness in

00:47:38 ◼   ► a laptop is either to go lower spec, I think, like make it not need to be so powerful and

00:47:46 ◼   ► go with something like an eGPU if those are good. Although honestly, I can't back to that

00:47:49 ◼   ► yet because it's too early to know whether those are actually good or whether there's

00:47:52 ◼   ► annoyances or big limitations or bugs or whatever else.

00:47:55 ◼   ► So who knows?

00:47:56 ◼   ► But hopefully that'll pan out well.

00:47:58 ◼   ► Or if you need all that power, really consider a desktop.

00:48:03 ◼   ► 'Cause desktops are so good now.

00:48:06 ◼   ► And I feel like trying to,

00:48:08 ◼   ► like the machine you have in front of you here,

00:48:09 ◼   ► there's like maxed out i9 15 inch,

00:48:12 ◼   ► has so many crazy compromises and limitations.

00:48:15 ◼   ► If you actually need to use all the power it has,

00:48:18 ◼   ► it's not fun.

00:48:20 ◼   ► Like the only advantage it has

00:48:21 ◼   ► as you can take it anywhere.

00:48:23 ◼   ► And you can just have one computer

00:48:25 ◼   ► and you can bring it on a plane

00:48:26 ◼   ► and have all that power with you.

00:48:27 ◼   ► And a lot of people need that

00:48:28 ◼   ► and that's why they buy these things.

00:48:29 ◼   ► But to me, the path to happiness on a laptop

00:48:31 ◼   ► is closer to the middle of the lineup.

00:48:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, tell your boss you need to upgrade to first class

00:48:36 ◼   ► because you need to work on your 15-inch MacBook Pro

00:48:39 ◼   ► while you're on the plane.

00:48:40 ◼   ► It requires a business requirement.

00:48:42 ◼   ► - And I hope you have seat power.

00:48:43 ◼   ► - Right. (laughs)

00:48:46 ◼   ► I guess if you need the power, yeah, you probably will.

00:48:49 ◼   ► - I mean, battery life on these,

00:48:50 ◼   ► like there was that controversy when they came out

00:48:51 ◼   ► consumer reports and everything, but battery life

00:48:54 ◼   ► on the modern laptops, what we have,

00:48:57 ◼   ► we have laptops getting thinner and lighter

00:48:59 ◼   ► and the batteries are shrinking because

00:49:01 ◼   ► if you're just sitting around typing email

00:49:03 ◼   ► and browsing the web, they're getting more efficient

00:49:04 ◼   ► than ever, but if you're actually pushing that power,

00:49:07 ◼   ► if you're actually using that processor, using the GPU,

00:49:10 ◼   ► if you're pushing it, they have worse battery life than ever

00:49:13 ◼   ► because they're designed for this low idle envelope

00:49:16 ◼   ► and once you push it, once you're doing something with it,

00:49:19 ◼   ► you're really having a problem with that battery

00:49:21 ◼   ► if you're on a long flight with no power.

00:49:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, although I will say in terms of battery life,

00:49:26 ◼   ► this machine in front of me,

00:49:27 ◼   ► I've been running on battery power

00:49:28 ◼   ► ever since we came into Marco's office to record this show,

00:49:32 ◼   ► and the battery meter still says 100%.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Now I'm not pushing the limits of this.

00:49:37 ◼   ► The show is being recorded into audio hijack

00:49:40 ◼   ► over on Marco's iMac Pro.

00:49:42 ◼   ► But I've got my, you know,

00:49:43 ◼   ► I've got all my regular apps running,

00:49:46 ◼   ► mail, Safari, lots of tabs, you know,

00:49:48 ◼   ► and the display is on and fairly bright.

00:49:51 ◼   ► and it still says 100%.

00:49:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, because what you're doing there is typical,

00:49:55 ◼   ► a light productivity workload, web browsing, email,

00:49:58 ◼   ► stuff like that, and you're barely interacting

00:49:59 ◼   ► with it at all, so that's even lighter.

00:50:02 ◼   ► It's optimized for that, and the chips now

00:50:03 ◼   ► are so good at power management when they're being

00:50:06 ◼   ► lowly utilized, I guess, minimally utilized,

00:50:09 ◼   ► then they're great at that, and it could probably

00:50:11 ◼   ► last 15 hours like that.

00:50:12 ◼   ► But if you try to export something from Final Cut,

00:50:16 ◼   ► we'll have a very different story.

00:50:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's funny, we were talking about this

00:50:19 ◼   ► off the show earlier, but in the days

00:50:21 ◼   ► that I've been testing this machine here

00:50:23 ◼   ► and seeing how the battery performs,

00:50:25 ◼   ► I've rethought an assumption that I came up with

00:50:28 ◼   ► a few years ago.

00:50:29 ◼   ► So the last time I personally bought a MacBook

00:50:31 ◼   ► was my mid-2014 13-inch MacBook Pro,

00:50:36 ◼   ► and I just maxed out everything.

00:50:39 ◼   ► I got the most RAM I could get,

00:50:41 ◼   ► 16 gigabytes, sounds terrible today.

00:50:43 ◼   ► - That's still pretty good.

00:50:45 ◼   ► - I got the fastest processor they sold at the time,

00:50:47 ◼   ► and I think the max SSD, which was one terabyte.

00:50:52 ◼   ► And it was all money well spent

00:50:54 ◼   ► because here I am four years later still using it,

00:50:56 ◼   ► still not really thinking about replacing it.

00:50:58 ◼   ► That's my style of Mac, I buy a new iPhone every year,

00:51:01 ◼   ► but my style of buying a Mac is to get one,

00:51:04 ◼   ► only when I really feel like I need it,

00:51:05 ◼   ► and then max it out and hopefully use it for many years

00:51:09 ◼   ► 'cause I just hate configuring a new machine just so.

00:51:13 ◼   ► And I love having one,

00:51:15 ◼   ► Like once I'm past like that year 18 month mark

00:51:18 ◼   ► where I feel like any kind of lemon component might blow,

00:51:21 ◼   ► I feel like this thing is reliable.

00:51:25 ◼   ► And my 2014 MacBook Pro I've been raving about

00:51:28 ◼   ► has never needed service for anything.

00:51:30 ◼   ► Not one case of anything has anything ever gone wrong in it.

00:51:34 ◼   ► So I love that.

00:51:35 ◼   ► But I was thinking when I bought it,

00:51:38 ◼   ► and battery life has been good,

00:51:40 ◼   ► it's good enough that I'm still happy with it,

00:51:42 ◼   ► but I never really pressed the CPU,

00:51:44 ◼   ► and my thought was, I don't know why I maxed out the CPU.

00:51:47 ◼   ► I don't do anything CPU intensive,

00:51:49 ◼   ► or else I do it so seldom that it's not worth buying

00:51:54 ◼   ► and getting what I presume to be worse battery life

00:51:58 ◼   ► because I'm running a faster CPU than I need,

00:52:02 ◼   ► whereas the baseline CPU,

00:52:03 ◼   ► like I need the SSD versus the hard drive.

00:52:06 ◼   ► I need the extra RAM because I'm such an idiot

00:52:09 ◼   ► and keep dozens and dozens of Safari tabs open at all times.

00:52:14 ◼   ► I don't need CPU. But I think you're right looking at this, that even with this Core i9, which in

00:52:19 ◼   ► theory as a CPU could burn battery faster than any other CPU in the lineup just because it's got

00:52:26 ◼   ► extra cores, you know, that's the nature of the fastest CPU. But here, when I'm doing my typical

00:52:31 ◼   ► workload, here I am literally 55 minutes into running on battery, and the battery meter still

00:52:37 ◼   ► says 100 percent. It still hasn't dropped to 99. So I think you're right, you know, that the power

00:52:43 ◼   ► Power management when they don't need it is crazy.

00:52:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I wouldn't worry that you're burning

00:52:48 ◼   ► extra power when you're doing stuff like this,

00:52:50 ◼   ► 'cause I think the power management's good enough

00:52:51 ◼   ► that you don't have to worry that if you buy

00:52:53 ◼   ► the high-end CPU that your idle power will be much worse,

00:52:56 ◼   ► 'cause it won't be.

00:52:57 ◼   ► But I think what we've seen a lot in the recent generations

00:53:01 ◼   ► is we're limited so much by thermals

00:53:03 ◼   ► that the difference between whatever comes

00:53:06 ◼   ► in the base model of a given size laptop

00:53:09 ◼   ► and whatever the highest CPU is

00:53:11 ◼   ► is not as big of a performance difference

00:53:13 ◼   ► you might think. Like usually it's within maybe 10, 15% from the base model to the highest

00:53:19 ◼   ► end CPU, even if the advertised clock speed might be big, like it might say it might go

00:53:23 ◼   ► from like 2.2 to 2.9. And so you'd think that would be a much bigger than 15% improvement.

00:53:29 ◼   ► But in fact, you know, because of turbo boost, and you know, everything's so complicated

00:53:32 ◼   ► now. Ultimately, if you're buying a new laptop, if you are concerned about bang for your buck,

00:53:39 ◼   ► I would say get the most storage you can first,

00:53:42 ◼   ► and then RAM is second priority,

00:53:44 ◼   ► and only upgrade the CPU if you really are okay

00:53:48 ◼   ► losing that money, because it matters so little.

00:53:50 ◼   ► Most of the laptops I've had for the last decade,

00:53:53 ◼   ► I've just had the base model CPU, and it's been totally fine.

00:53:55 ◼   ► - I totally agree with that, and one thing

00:53:57 ◼   ► that I probably would have said differently

00:53:58 ◼   ► five or six years ago is five or six years ago,

00:54:01 ◼   ► I probably would have said RAM first, storage second.

00:54:04 ◼   ► But one of the differences between SSD and spinning disks

00:54:08 ◼   ► is that if your machine does need to swap,

00:54:12 ◼   ► which is when it starts writing stuff in memory to disk.

00:54:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I say disk, but you know.

00:54:18 ◼   ► With a hard drive, it was just awful.

00:54:22 ◼   ► As soon as you went to swap, I could tell right away.

00:54:27 ◼   ► I would just be like, oh, I need to quit Safari

00:54:30 ◼   ► and relaunch it because I can tell it's swap.

00:54:32 ◼   ► Whereas with SSD, of course SSD is not as fast as RAM,

00:54:36 ◼   ► But it is fast enough that it's,

00:54:40 ◼   ► I think you're right, prioritize SSD storage first,

00:54:43 ◼   ► then RAM.

00:54:44 ◼   ► - And also, I think the calculus changed also

00:54:46 ◼   ► because back 10 years ago, if your hard drive was filled up,

00:54:49 ◼   ► you could upgrade it.

00:54:50 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:54:51 ◼   ► For not that much money.

00:54:52 ◼   ► And today, you can't upgrade any of these specs anymore.

00:54:56 ◼   ► So to me, and because I've occasionally been impatient

00:55:00 ◼   ► and just walked to an Apple store and bought the base model,

00:55:04 ◼   ► then I've often had that 256 gig SSD.

00:55:07 ◼   ► And man, it's like that killed the laptop for me.

00:55:11 ◼   ► Like over time, what was the limiting factor

00:55:13 ◼   ► that made me the most unhappy with it

00:55:15 ◼   ► or made me have to jump through the most hoops

00:55:17 ◼   ► or have the most limitations was disk space.

00:55:20 ◼   ► And you can never upgrade it.

00:55:22 ◼   ► So I kind of learned that lesson

00:55:24 ◼   ► over two different laptops that I got that way

00:55:26 ◼   ► and realized, okay, I'm now getting the 512 at least

00:55:29 ◼   ► with whatever I do.

00:55:33 ◼   ► All right, let's take another break here

00:55:34 ◼   ► and thank our next sponsor.

00:55:36 ◼   ► And our next sponsor is Mack Weldon.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Mack Weldon's mission is simple,

00:55:41 ◼   ► to make sure all of your basics and beyond

00:55:43 ◼   ► are smartly designed and shopping from them

00:55:45 ◼   ► is easy and convenient.

00:55:46 ◼   ► What kind of basics are we talking about?

00:55:48 ◼   ► We're talking about stuff like underwear, socks, T-shirts.

00:55:52 ◼   ► They founded Mack Weldon because they wanted more

00:55:55 ◼   ► out of the basics and they always questioned

00:55:57 ◼   ► how something so essential could be such a pain

00:56:00 ◼   ► in the ass to buy.

00:56:01 ◼   ► The frustration was real in there.

00:56:03 ◼   ► Eureka moment happened in an apartment store aisle full of brands that dominated their top drawer

00:56:09 ◼   ► You know that the big-name ones the ones that advertise on TV

00:56:11 ◼   ► Surrounded by a mind-numbing assortment of underwear and socks. They realized that consistent fit and quality

00:56:18 ◼   ► We're really a game of roulette

00:56:20 ◼   ► You could buy a pack of t-shirts and like one of them like the collar starts fraying like two times after your ward

00:56:25 ◼   ► so they took matters into their own hands and they started from scratch and

00:56:30 ◼   ► engineered even their own fabric.

00:56:32 ◼   ► Mack Weldon stuff is not like white label stuff

00:56:35 ◼   ► that they buy and just stick a Mack label label in,

00:56:37 ◼   ► a Mack Weldon label in.

00:56:40 ◼   ► They even engineered their own fabric.

00:56:43 ◼   ► I've been wearing their stuff for years.

00:56:46 ◼   ► I'm actually wearing a pair of Mack Weldon underwear

00:56:49 ◼   ► right now, literally, as I record.

00:56:51 ◼   ► - Me too, and I got one of their shirts on.

00:56:53 ◼   ► - I do not have one of their shirts on,

00:56:55 ◼   ► but I am just wearing a novelty T-shirt.

00:56:57 ◼   ► So it's, I don't have an under,

00:56:58 ◼   ► If I had an undershirt on, it would be one of theirs.

00:57:01 ◼   ► And I love, I don't like V-neck t-shirts,

00:57:03 ◼   ► but I love V-neck undershirts

00:57:05 ◼   ► because then you don't see the shirt

00:57:07 ◼   ► when you unbutton the top button.

00:57:09 ◼   ► So I have an entire drawer

00:57:11 ◼   ► full of white Mack Weldon V-neck t-shirts.

00:57:15 ◼   ► I bought enough so that I would never have to worry

00:57:18 ◼   ► that I don't have one on, or don't have one ready to go.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Really great stuff.

00:57:24 ◼   ► I have a ton of their socks.

00:57:26 ◼   ► I don't even know if I could count

00:57:28 ◼   ► how many of their socks I have.

00:57:30 ◼   ► And I know it sounds stupid.

00:57:32 ◼   ► There are just things that I've gone through life

00:57:34 ◼   ► and I just never thought about.

00:57:35 ◼   ► And I spent decades of my life never thinking about socks.

00:57:39 ◼   ► But it's crazy because every single thing about,

00:57:43 ◼   ► every single thing I own,

00:57:45 ◼   ► I always want something that I think is excellent.

00:57:48 ◼   ► Like I like nice watches.

00:57:50 ◼   ► I like, I care about what brand hat I wear.

00:57:53 ◼   ► I, you know, last time I bought a car,

00:57:55 ◼   ► I spent an inordinate amount of time researching it.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Well, why did I not think about socks?

00:58:01 ◼   ► Having nice socks is so much more comfortable

00:58:05 ◼   ► than having ratty old socks that are worn out.

00:58:08 ◼   ► I don't know why I was like 40-something

00:58:12 ◼   ► before I began caring about socks.

00:58:14 ◼   ► - It's one of life's great pleasures

00:58:15 ◼   ► to have really good socks and underwear.

00:58:17 ◼   ► - It is amazing.

00:58:18 ◼   ► And I spend large parts of my life

00:58:21 ◼   ► typically not even leaving my house,

00:58:23 ◼   ► and I just walk around wearing socks.

00:58:25 ◼   ► It's the thing that's on my foot

00:58:26 ◼   ► more than anything else in the world.

00:58:28 ◼   ► Why not?

00:58:29 ◼   ► It's really great stuff, and it really is easy to buy.

00:58:32 ◼   ► So I think it's great products.

00:58:35 ◼   ► Literally, they're being worn right now.

00:58:37 ◼   ► I didn't even know Marco was wearing them.

00:58:38 ◼   ► I didn't run this by him before I am, but there you go.

00:58:40 ◼   ► - It's literally, the underwear is all I wear anymore,

00:58:43 ◼   ► period, and the shirts, I'm probably wearing

00:58:45 ◼   ► one of their t-shirts in the summertime,

00:58:48 ◼   ► nearly 100% of the time, and in the wintertime,

00:58:50 ◼   ► maybe half the time.

00:58:52 ◼   ► If I could only keep one of their products,

00:58:54 ◼   ► 'cause there's a lot of places to buy socks,

00:58:56 ◼   ► even though their socks are nice,

00:58:57 ◼   ► but to me, the undershirts are the best.

00:58:59 ◼   ► If I could only keep one,

00:59:00 ◼   ► if you said you have to get rid of everything,

00:59:02 ◼   ► it would be the V-Neck white undershirts,

00:59:04 ◼   ► which are so comfortable.

00:59:06 ◼   ► And I realize this now as I think about it,

00:59:09 ◼   ► I haven't ordered them in quite a while.

00:59:11 ◼   ► So the ones I have, and they all look brand new.

00:59:13 ◼   ► - They hold up, yeah.

00:59:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I'm thinking about that right now.

00:59:16 ◼   ► I can't remember the last time I bought new stuff there.

00:59:17 ◼   ► I should actually go to their website

00:59:19 ◼   ► and see if they have anything new.

00:59:20 ◼   ► but the white v-neck undershirts,

00:59:23 ◼   ► they hold up tremendously.

00:59:24 ◼   ► They, mine all look brand new.

00:59:25 ◼   ► They hold their shape, really terrific stuff.

00:59:28 ◼   ► So that's my very favorite product.

00:59:30 ◼   ► Here's what you gotta do.

00:59:32 ◼   ► You can get 20% off your next order with the code TALKSHOW.

00:59:37 ◼   ► Know the, just TALKSHOW at the macweldon.com website.

00:59:43 ◼   ► So there you go, macweldon.com.

00:59:48 ◼   ► At checkout, the code is talk show,

00:59:50 ◼   ► and you save 20% off your first order.

00:59:54 ◼   ► I would use that code.

00:59:54 ◼   ► I would load up if you need t-shirts and socks.

00:59:56 ◼   ► Just load up, trust me, get a bunch,

00:59:59 ◼   ► save 20% on your first order.

01:00:01 ◼   ► You'll thank me later.

01:00:02 ◼   ► My thanks to Mack Weldon.

01:00:04 ◼   ► Let's get into specifics about this machine.

01:00:08 ◼   ► I can't really do a full review.

01:00:09 ◼   ► I think I've had a, I forget when I got this.

01:00:11 ◼   ► I think Friday.

01:00:15 ◼   ► So I've probably, this is probably my seventh day

01:00:17 ◼   ► of using this machine.

01:00:19 ◼   ► I did something new with this machine

01:00:21 ◼   ► that I haven't done before out of what I think

01:00:23 ◼   ► is an irrational fear.

01:00:25 ◼   ► But for all of my years of testing MacBooks and stuff,

01:00:29 ◼   ► I never used migration assistant to move stuff

01:00:34 ◼   ► from an old machine.

01:00:35 ◼   ► Nope, because--

01:00:36 ◼   ► - How do you do it?

01:00:37 ◼   ► Do you set up new every time?

01:00:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, I have like this whole checklist in an Apple.

01:00:41 ◼   ► So I have an Apple Note with what to do with a new Mac.

01:00:45 ◼   ► and you get the new Mac and I'd set it up factory refresh

01:00:50 ◼   ► and I'd sign in to iCloud.

01:00:52 ◼   ► And so once I'm signed into iCloud

01:00:54 ◼   ► and I'd go through the, you know,

01:00:56 ◼   ► do you wanna send a developer information,

01:00:59 ◼   ► all the things you gotta do.

01:01:00 ◼   ► And you know, you wanna turn on Siri,

01:01:01 ◼   ► you wanna set up touch ID, blah, blah, blah.

01:01:03 ◼   ► Okay, and then it spins for a little bit.

01:01:05 ◼   ► And then boom, you're at a default desktop.

01:01:08 ◼   ► Right away, because you're signed into iCloud,

01:01:10 ◼   ► your notes start filing in.

01:01:11 ◼   ► And then I would go to Apple Notes, find that note,

01:01:14 ◼   ► and start going through the list of things

01:01:16 ◼   ► to install side by side.

01:01:18 ◼   ► And I think that's partly explains why I hate

01:01:22 ◼   ► getting a new Mac because it's a lot of work.

01:01:25 ◼   ► So this time I was like, well, I'm going,

01:01:27 ◼   ► this is gonna be great, I'm gonna be using,

01:01:28 ◼   ► I'm going to Marco's for a couple of days next week,

01:01:32 ◼   ► but I don't have a lot of time,

01:01:34 ◼   ► so why don't I try migration assistant?

01:01:36 ◼   ► And if I don't like it, I can wipe it clean.

01:01:37 ◼   ► So I tried migration assistant.

01:01:39 ◼   ► And I have to say, I'm pretty dumb

01:01:41 ◼   ► for not having used it before.

01:01:42 ◼   ► It's kind of amazing how much stuff moved over.

01:01:45 ◼   ► Not everything, one thing that I'd noticed,

01:01:48 ◼   ► or at least for me, I don't know if this is by design or not,

01:01:50 ◼   ► but nothing that's a login item moved over.

01:01:52 ◼   ► Like when it was done, it took like,

01:01:54 ◼   ► and I just did it over WiFi at home,

01:01:56 ◼   ► and it took about four hours

01:01:58 ◼   ► with the two machines side by side.

01:02:01 ◼   ► And when it was done and I logged in,

01:02:02 ◼   ► this looks like almost identical to my 13,

01:02:07 ◼   ► my personal 13-inch MacBook Pro, just on a 15-inch display.

01:02:11 ◼   ► and almost all of my apps moved over.

01:02:14 ◼   ► At least one of them, when I first,

01:02:17 ◼   ► Fantastic Al for some reason, when it went to launch,

01:02:19 ◼   ► said this app is damaged, move it to the trash

01:02:22 ◼   ► and redownload from the app store,

01:02:23 ◼   ► which I did and then it worked.

01:02:26 ◼   ► I don't know what happened there.

01:02:28 ◼   ► The only thing I noticed was that nothing

01:02:30 ◼   ► that was a login item, the things that I have

01:02:33 ◼   ► that launch automatically when I log in,

01:02:34 ◼   ► none of them came over.

01:02:36 ◼   ► I don't know if that's a security,

01:02:37 ◼   ► I don't know if that's a bug,

01:02:38 ◼   ► or if it's like a security thing or something.

01:02:40 ◼   ► Could it be like a cruft reducer? Right? Over time that those things get all crazy?

01:02:44 ◼   ► one of the things that moved over that I'm blown away by is a bunch of

01:02:49 ◼   ► Pearl modules that I have installed non-standard pearl modules from the CPAN archive. I

01:02:56 ◼   ► Couldn't believe that they moved over. I've got some services that do things automatically and some of them I know

01:03:01 ◼   ► Rely upon modules you have to download

01:03:03 ◼   ► And I don't do the thing like Syracuse if he's listening to this episode is going to cringe

01:03:09 ◼   ► I don't do the thing that people Rex pearl experts recommend which is leave system pearl as it is and

01:03:17 ◼   ► Use homebrew or something to install your own

01:03:20 ◼   ► Personal version a second version of pearl or any other open source scripting language that you use

01:03:26 ◼   ► Install your own and any kind of custom stuff you want to set up do it there and leave system pearl alone

01:03:31 ◼   ► I don't do that. I just install CPAN levels in the system, but maybe I don't even remember

01:03:38 ◼   ► Maybe when I set up my personal MacBook years ago, I did the thing where

01:03:43 ◼   ► When I install CPAN modules at the terminal, they are still being put somewhere in a dot

01:03:50 ◼   ► Directory in my home folder and so that migration assistant when it moved over my whole home folder

01:03:57 ◼   ► It included all those weird Unix II

01:04:00 ◼   ► dot whatever in

01:04:03 ◼   ► quote-unquote invisible directories

01:04:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe.

01:04:07 ◼   ► I mean, 'cause I don't think it moves over things

01:04:08 ◼   ► that are in user local or anything like that.

01:04:11 ◼   ► - Right.

01:04:11 ◼   ► - I will say, I have had really good luck

01:04:14 ◼   ► with migration assistant before.

01:04:16 ◼   ► The only thing is, if you try to do it over Wi-Fi

01:04:19 ◼   ► or over the network, it's usually terrible.

01:04:21 ◼   ► But if you can find a way to do it over a cable in some way,

01:04:23 ◼   ► like if you must wire Ethernet,

01:04:26 ◼   ► but even better than that is Thunderbolt

01:04:28 ◼   ► to target disk mode.

01:04:30 ◼   ► If you can do that, it's usually pretty reasonable,

01:04:33 ◼   ► time-wise, it usually finishes without problems.

01:04:35 ◼   ► It's pretty good.

01:04:36 ◼   ► I've had very few failures.

01:04:38 ◼   ► - It did move over user local bin.

01:04:41 ◼   ► - That's interesting.

01:04:42 ◼   ► - 'Cause I have not installed Homebrew on this machine

01:04:44 ◼   ► and I just typed which brew

01:04:45 ◼   ► and it says user local bin brew.

01:04:48 ◼   ► So it did move over that.

01:04:49 ◼   ► It's amazing.

01:04:50 ◼   ► - So yeah, so maybe it moves over user local

01:04:52 ◼   ► but just not user, you know, so that way like,

01:04:55 ◼   ► maybe that's why you're supposed to use your local

01:04:57 ◼   ► on Mac for stuff like that.

01:04:58 ◼   ► - So I don't know if this is a recent thing.

01:04:59 ◼   ► I don't know if I've been missing out on this for years.

01:05:02 ◼   ► I don't know if the,

01:05:03 ◼   ► But whoever inside Apple is responsible

01:05:06 ◼   ► for migration assistant, moving over so much of this stuff,

01:05:10 ◼   ► I thank you sincerely because I really spent

01:05:14 ◼   ► almost no time whatsoever configuring this machine

01:05:17 ◼   ► before leaving for this trip.

01:05:18 ◼   ► And it's done everything I've needed to.

01:05:21 ◼   ► I brought my personal MacBook Pro as a backup

01:05:25 ◼   ► just in case I got here and I needed it for some reason

01:05:27 ◼   ► and I haven't needed it for anything.

01:05:29 ◼   ► It's really remarkable.

01:05:30 ◼   ► So anybody else out there with my same irrational fear

01:05:34 ◼   ► that migration assistant is going to leave me

01:05:37 ◼   ► with more work to do than doing it all by hand,

01:05:40 ◼   ► give it a try next time.

01:05:41 ◼   ► I mean, the worst that happens is you just wipe it

01:05:43 ◼   ► and start over, but I was blown away.

01:05:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think a lot of that comes from,

01:05:47 ◼   ► like, and because I've used migration assistance for years,

01:05:49 ◼   ► and I've only done a very small number

01:05:52 ◼   ► of clean installs on my Mac ever.

01:05:54 ◼   ► Like, it's probably like less than four

01:05:57 ◼   ► in the 12 years or 14 years I've been using Macs full time.

01:06:02 ◼   ► And so it almost always means migration

01:06:05 ◼   ► is just to move stuff, and it's great.

01:06:07 ◼   ► I think a lot of that fear comes from Windows switchers,

01:06:10 ◼   ► like me, because Windows always had upgrade install

01:06:13 ◼   ► versus clean install, and the upgrades and migrations

01:06:16 ◼   ► for Windows were, at least back when I was using Windows,

01:06:19 ◼   ► horrible, incredibly unreliable.

01:06:22 ◼   ► It was almost always a bad idea to do anything

01:06:24 ◼   ► but a clean install.

01:06:26 ◼   ► Yeah, but Windows even had the or still has I don't even know but had the reputation that

01:06:30 ◼   ► even if you're not moving to a new machine, your existing installation is going to dissolve

01:06:35 ◼   ► over time. Oh, yeah, I read like, just part of like a thing that computer geeks had to

01:06:39 ◼   ► do and probably still do like, I had to reformat and start my windows installation clean, I

01:06:45 ◼   ► think about every year or so. Right. So why would you move an installation to a new machine

01:06:49 ◼   ► when you're going to have to reinstall on your regular machine anyway? Exactly. It was

01:06:53 ◼   ► it was like recreation, like you defrag your disk

01:06:55 ◼   ► and then every once a year you reformat

01:06:57 ◼   ► and reinstall Windows for fun.

01:06:58 ◼   ► - I don't have any experience with Windows.

01:07:00 ◼   ► I mean, I've used Windows, seriously,

01:07:03 ◼   ► well over a decade ago now, so it's ancient.

01:07:06 ◼   ► But even back then, I never was a regular Windows user,

01:07:09 ◼   ► never owned a Windows machine.

01:07:11 ◼   ► I just think, I think it's based on the fact

01:07:13 ◼   ► that maybe even going back to the classic Mac OS era,

01:07:17 ◼   ► the migration assistant didn't work well,

01:07:19 ◼   ► or wasn't good enough for me.

01:07:21 ◼   ► I don't think it's completely without some experience

01:07:26 ◼   ► trying Apple's, okay, you have a new Mac,

01:07:28 ◼   ► let's copy stuff from your old Mac.

01:07:30 ◼   ► I don't know if they always called it Migration Assistant,

01:07:32 ◼   ► but at some point I tried it,

01:07:34 ◼   ► but literally it might be 15, 20 years ago,

01:07:35 ◼   ► and it might even be back in the classic era,

01:07:39 ◼   ► and it just was completely unsatisfactory.

01:07:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, my experience with it

01:07:44 ◼   ► has been basically like, if you want a clean install,

01:07:47 ◼   ► just like for organizational purposes,

01:07:48 ◼   ► or to try out new ways of doing things, or whatever,

01:07:51 ◼   ► Go for it, that's fine.

01:07:52 ◼   ► But migration assistant is so good

01:07:54 ◼   ► that you don't need to really ever do that.

01:07:56 ◼   ► It's totally optional.

01:07:58 ◼   ► If you don't want a clean install,

01:07:59 ◼   ► you never have to do one.

01:08:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, and you know what, I'm thinking about it.

01:08:03 ◼   ► Even things like my shell.

01:08:04 ◼   ► So I've never really learned a bash.

01:08:09 ◼   ► I can use it, but I'm not a bash expert.

01:08:12 ◼   ► I never had a super complicated bash RC file.

01:08:17 ◼   ► So I switched to Fish at some point in the last year.

01:08:22 ◼   ► And I find it to be very fun,

01:08:24 ◼   ► and I love that it doesn't have all these

01:08:26 ◼   ► 50-year-old Unix conventions.

01:08:29 ◼   ► And it's my default shell on this machine.

01:08:33 ◼   ► So without me doing it, when I opened Terminal,

01:08:37 ◼   ► it still is the same default as the last machine.

01:08:39 ◼   ► So somewhere within Apple,

01:08:41 ◼   ► somebody cares about the 1% of Mac users

01:08:44 ◼   ► who do things like install stuff and use their local bin.

01:08:47 ◼   ► I bet it's actually well less than 1%.

01:08:49 ◼   ► Right, I'll bet it is.

01:08:51 ◼   ► But because I'll bet that 1% includes the sort of people who are engineers on the migration assistant team,

01:08:58 ◼   ► there's a high likelihood somehow somebody did the work for that, and I appreciate it.

01:09:03 ◼   ► It's a lot of pros. A lot of pros are developers.

01:09:07 ◼   ► A lot of developers put their, especially web developers, put even more stuff there.

01:09:11 ◼   ► And that's a pretty big market for the MacBook Pro and Macs in general.

01:09:15 ◼   ► That's actually, you know, that's something

01:09:17 ◼   ► that they should do, so yeah, I'm glad they do.

01:09:19 ◼   ► - Other than that, I love the machine.

01:09:22 ◼   ► Right now, it's still, it has dropped below 100%.

01:09:25 ◼   ► We're at 98% battery life.

01:09:29 ◼   ► It is-- - Thrilling.

01:09:31 ◼   ► - It is absolutely cool to the touch,

01:09:34 ◼   ► even right at the base of the display

01:09:36 ◼   ► where it gets hot faster.

01:09:38 ◼   ► It runs very cool when you're doing minimal work.

01:09:41 ◼   ► The display is lovely.

01:09:43 ◼   ► True Tone works exactly as I expected it to,

01:09:47 ◼   ► which is I've already forgotten it's there.

01:09:49 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:09:50 ◼   ► But then when I look, like my son brought his laptop

01:09:52 ◼   ► on vacation, when I look at his screen

01:09:54 ◼   ► in certain lighting conditions here,

01:09:55 ◼   ► I'm like, oh my God, that looks terrible.

01:09:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:09:59 ◼   ► So I'm already ruined by True Tone.

01:10:02 ◼   ► That's probably gonna be the single hardest thing

01:10:04 ◼   ► about going back to my machine from this,

01:10:06 ◼   ► and probably the single thing that might tempt me to update.

01:10:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, why go back?

01:10:11 ◼   ► Because now you know Migration Assistant works.

01:10:12 ◼   ► You're gonna be buying every laptop. I know I know I know I might get on like an iPhone like year over year system

01:10:18 ◼   ► You know with the iPhone I'm still running my iPhone right here in front of me has been updated

01:10:24 ◼   ► Ever since the original iPhone 10 years ago, or I guess 11 years ago at this point, right?

01:10:30 ◼   ► 2007 so like starting with my original iPhone in 2007

01:10:34 ◼   ► I've bought a new iPhone for myself every year and every time I have updated from what it was

01:10:42 ◼   ► which is kind of amazing in terms of old school experience.

01:10:47 ◼   ► Even on the Mac side, it just didn't seem like

01:10:49 ◼   ► that was a good idea to just keep buying new things

01:10:51 ◼   ► and keeping a system going from 11 years ago.

01:10:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, although I think I kept my first installation

01:10:58 ◼   ► going for like seven or eight years, it was something crazy.

01:11:01 ◼   ► But, and with iPhones it makes more sense

01:11:03 ◼   ► because with iPhones, you get a lot more

01:11:04 ◼   ► year over year change.

01:11:06 ◼   ► And even though that's in some ways,

01:11:08 ◼   ► and like some years that kind of is a little bit slower

01:11:10 ◼   ► than others in recent times,

01:11:11 ◼   ► it's still way more year over year change

01:11:13 ◼   ► than you get on the Mac side.

01:11:14 ◼   ► You know, like these, like if you have a,

01:11:17 ◼   ► like you know, 2016 MacBook Pro,

01:11:20 ◼   ► you know, then the 2018s, it's two more years on the iPhone,

01:11:24 ◼   ► that would be a really big, nice jump.

01:11:26 ◼   ► On the Mac, the 2018s are gonna be, you know,

01:11:29 ◼   ► 50% better at most on certain tasks,

01:11:32 ◼   ► and in some ways, on most tasks,

01:11:35 ◼   ► not nearly that much better,

01:11:36 ◼   ► like it'll be a little bit better, a little bit nicer,

01:11:38 ◼   ► but you know, largely the same experience.

01:11:40 ◼   ► So single thing I like most is the display because it has true tone

01:11:46 ◼   ► The single thing I like least is the keyboard because I just it just feels weird

01:11:52 ◼   ► I can't get used I can I don't hate it

01:11:55 ◼   ► And I remember from when I tested when the when these MacBook pros first came out in 2016 November 2016

01:12:02 ◼   ► I I got Apple it sent me like three of them. I said I got like the escape

01:12:07 ◼   ► I got a 13 inch with touch bar and then a 15 inch with touch bar

01:12:11 ◼   ► which

01:12:14 ◼   ► was

01:12:15 ◼   ► Discombobulating to my simple mind. How do I how do I test three laptops when they were staggered?

01:12:20 ◼   ► Like everyone got right escape first to review the touch bar ones weren't ready even for reviewers

01:12:24 ◼   ► Yeah, and then the tuckler came out like a couple of weeks later, right?

01:12:27 ◼   ► Are you and but because there were three of them I spent longer than usual using it, you know

01:12:33 ◼   ► And and I remember then I was like this is unfamiliar

01:12:37 ◼   ► I don't like the keyboard feel wise and I kind of got used to it and I think I'm sure I would get used to this

01:12:43 ◼   ► I'm sure I would but I one week in

01:12:46 ◼   ► My fingers still feel like they're in a foreign country or something. It's it's it, you know

01:12:52 ◼   ► Like I'm driving on the wrong side of the road. It doesn't feel right but

01:12:55 ◼   ► There are other people here who have similar keyboards and I in terms of the volume, you know that this issue with hey

01:13:04 ◼   ► This one's quieter because of the silicone membrane that they've added. There is no doubt in my mind that it's quieter

01:13:09 ◼   ► It's quieter from my memory of using the keyboards in late 2016

01:13:14 ◼   ► I mean, I know Joanna Stern and I did a podcast at some point where she she she really hated the noise that those keyboards made

01:13:22 ◼   ► I can't wait to talk to her was really bad

01:13:24 ◼   ► It was it was like it was like tapping on an upside-down bucket

01:13:27 ◼   ► Yeah, it was so just like cheap and crappy sounding and the other keep in mind. They did change it in the 2017 also

01:13:34 ◼   ► Yeah, I didn't say anything but the 2017 were a little bit quieter

01:13:37 ◼   ► I didn't get one of those to test but I had I did do the typical

01:13:42 ◼   ► Apple podcaster thing which is wander into an Apple store and

01:13:46 ◼   ► Just start typing on one

01:13:48 ◼   ► Yeah

01:13:49 ◼   ► we're very good at that right and it's weird because I go in and I realize I look like a crazy person because I'm

01:13:53 ◼   ► Not looking at the display. I'm like, you know like just so that I can concentrate on what it sounds and feels like

01:13:59 ◼   ► I'm just sort of staring into space and I'm staring straight ahead

01:14:03 ◼   ► Yeah, you know because it's like I'm just you know, looking at one of the white spaces in the Apple Store, you know

01:14:09 ◼   ► Into the Johnny into the Johnny I've void where my visual field isn't really I'm just it's all about the feel and the listening

01:14:17 ◼   ► But it was said that was a subtle change. Whereas this is clearly a new keyboard and I think it's better

01:14:24 ◼   ► I definitely do I think it's quieter and I think it even feels better. So

01:14:29 ◼   ► I

01:14:31 ◼   ► You know one of my questions was with this silicone thing everybody of course you know

01:14:35 ◼   ► There's this whole thing about the egress. You know it that that little pieces of dust would get into your keyboard

01:14:42 ◼   ► You know this is one of the biggest Apple scandals of the last year

01:14:45 ◼   ► a little bit of dust gets in your keyboard and all of a sudden one of the keys get stuck and

01:14:49 ◼   ► Apple you know it's to me embarrassing

01:14:52 ◼   ► I mean everybody knows this is embarrassing that Apple even has commissioned

01:14:56 ◼   ► You know a nice Apple style professional illustrators

01:15:00 ◼   ► to draw a diagram of the exact 43 degree angle you should hold the MacBook with while you

01:15:09 ◼   ► spray it with a can of compressed air. Right? Like the fact that this wasn't just like a

01:15:16 ◼   ► word of mouth thing, like you go in the Apple store and they tell you know, like zapping

01:15:20 ◼   ► PRAM or something like that all these, you know, little bits of tech tech support advice

01:15:25 ◼   ► that float around and say, Oh, yeah, just try a can of air or whatever, like Apple had

01:15:28 ◼   ► to actually make it a major illustrated support document. The fear that common sense would say,

01:15:36 ◼   ► "Well, what if they added this silicone layer specifically to combat this egress thing

01:15:43 ◼   ► that was getting these keys stuck and was turning into a support and publicity nightmare for the

01:15:49 ◼   ► the company. Surely, they've spent way more money than they wanted to on repairing these

01:15:58 ◼   ► keyboards. And publicity-wise, it's probably even more of an expense. It's one of the

01:16:04 ◼   ► worst cases of bad publicity that they've had in recent years. Well, what if they added

01:16:07 ◼   ► the silicone layer to keep out the dust and keep the keyboard working, but what if it

01:16:13 ◼   ► makes the keyboard worse?

01:16:14 ◼   ► - Right, I mean, that was a, you know,

01:16:17 ◼   ► and I still haven't spent meaningful time

01:16:18 ◼   ► with One Yacht 'cause mine's on here yet,

01:16:20 ◼   ► but like, it's, the keyboard is already just like,

01:16:24 ◼   ► barely good enough feeling for most people.

01:16:28 ◼   ► Most people either like it or don't care,

01:16:32 ◼   ► but it's dealing with such tiny tolerances of like,

01:16:35 ◼   ► these keys barely move, it barely feels like

01:16:38 ◼   ► you're pushing something down.

01:16:40 ◼   ► Like, if they reduce that, there's not a lot of room

01:16:42 ◼   ► to reduce that, and so certainly a big risk of this

01:16:46 ◼   ► is that it makes it feel worse at the expense

01:16:49 ◼   ► of making it more durable.

01:16:50 ◼   ► So you're saying you don't think it feels worse?

01:16:52 ◼   ► - No, I think it feels better.

01:16:55 ◼   ► I think it feels better than the ones without the membrane.

01:16:58 ◼   ► So there's three generations.

01:16:59 ◼   ► There's the first generation.

01:17:01 ◼   ► I think that that includes the MacBook One,

01:17:05 ◼   ► or maybe they're only talking about MacBook Pro.

01:17:06 ◼   ► - The MacBook One, well, so the 2015 MacBook One

01:17:10 ◼   ► had a version of this keyboard that basically,

01:17:12 ◼   ► Like they all have the exact same travel.

01:17:15 ◼   ► But the very first one had like no kickback on the keys.

01:17:19 ◼   ► And so it felt even worse than these.

01:17:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, it felt like dead.

01:17:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, the 2016, when they put the MacBook Pro generation

01:17:26 ◼   ► with this keyboard, it added this big, strong

01:17:29 ◼   ► kickback feeling which also made that horrible noise.

01:17:32 ◼   ► But it did make it feel less crappy.

01:17:35 ◼   ► - Well, what I'm questioning is Apple describes

01:17:38 ◼   ► this keyboard, this one with the silicone layer,

01:17:40 ◼   ► as third generation.

01:17:42 ◼   ► but are they only counting MacBook Pro keyboards,

01:17:45 ◼   ► as in 2016 was first generation?

01:17:48 ◼   ► - No, no, no, when they introduced 2016s,

01:17:50 ◼   ► they called this the second generation butterfly keyboard.

01:17:52 ◼   ► - Okay. - 'Cause the first generation

01:17:53 ◼   ► one, by their naming, was the one in the 2015 MacBook.

01:17:56 ◼   ► - All right. - Then the second generation

01:17:58 ◼   ► is technically 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pros,

01:18:01 ◼   ► even though they're different,

01:18:02 ◼   ► and then the third generation is the 2018 one.

01:18:04 ◼   ► - Right, so to go to software numbering lingo,

01:18:07 ◼   ► it would be like the 1.0 was the 2015 MacBook One,

01:18:12 ◼   ► 2.0 is 2016 MacBook Pros 2.1 was the 2017 MacBook Pros and this is 3.0

01:18:19 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, I like this one better. I just no question in my mind one weekend. I like it better and

01:18:24 ◼   ► the things that I don't like are are

01:18:29 ◼   ► Endemic to it. I don't like the less travel

01:18:34 ◼   ► But that might just be that I'm not used to it yet

01:18:38 ◼   ► I'm willing to concede that if given enough time with it as my main machine

01:18:41 ◼   ► I might grow to appreciate it because I you know

01:18:44 ◼   ► I remember thinking the same thing every single time Apple makes their machines thinner every single time

01:18:49 ◼   ► They radically changed their laptop keyboards

01:18:52 ◼   ► I don't like it because there's always less travel because they're always making them thinner and so they have to reduce the travel because

01:18:58 ◼   ► You you have to reduce the travel on the keyboard to make the machine thicker. It's just simple

01:19:03 ◼   ► three three-dimensional spatial reality

01:19:08 ◼   ► You know in terms of feel I still like the way like, you know, like a 15 year old power book feels

01:19:14 ◼   ► Because it's you know, got some click

01:19:17 ◼   ► So I pretty you know, but I'm realistic. I don't expect a Apple extended keyboard to

01:19:23 ◼   ► Mechanical keyboard on a laptop. I realize it's physically impossible. So I realize there's less trouble and every time you would totally buy it

01:19:29 ◼   ► If it was oh, yeah

01:19:31 ◼   ► So the travel, you know the travel is the travel there's nothing they can do about it I

01:19:37 ◼   ► - I find, well. - Okay.

01:19:39 ◼   ► I'll let that go for this.

01:19:42 ◼   ► - Right, well, there's nothing they could do

01:19:43 ◼   ► other than to make the machines thicker, in theory.

01:19:46 ◼   ► Although-- - Well, maybe not.

01:19:48 ◼   ► Honestly, maybe not.

01:19:49 ◼   ► Maybe they could just,

01:19:51 ◼   ► 'cause there are a lot of PC laptops

01:19:53 ◼   ► that have a similar overall thinness and profile

01:19:57 ◼   ► where the Keytrap,

01:19:58 ◼   ► where it has more traditional style keyboard.

01:20:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, I guess I shouldn't say that.

01:20:02 ◼   ► And I also know that there are people who prefer this.

01:20:07 ◼   ► - A good amount of them, actually.

01:20:08 ◼   ► - Right, a good amount of people genuinely prefer it.

01:20:10 ◼   ► The thing that I find hard to get used to,

01:20:12 ◼   ► and I remember this from 2016 too,

01:20:14 ◼   ► is that the key caps are physically bigger.

01:20:17 ◼   ► So the keys are bigger, and there's less space between keys.

01:20:22 ◼   ► The keyboard itself isn't bigger.

01:20:24 ◼   ► They've just reduced space between keys

01:20:26 ◼   ► and used that extra space to make the keys bigger.

01:20:29 ◼   ► And for some reason, even though it shouldn't,

01:20:32 ◼   ► because the center of every key

01:20:34 ◼   ► is still in the same position,

01:20:36 ◼   ► it feels to me like I have to spread my fingers wider.

01:20:40 ◼   ► And my hands feel weird right now

01:20:43 ◼   ► because before we started recording the show,

01:20:45 ◼   ► I was writing a bunch of emails

01:20:47 ◼   ► and posting a few things to Daring Fireball,

01:20:49 ◼   ► so I was typing.

01:20:50 ◼   ► And my fingers feel like I've spread them out,

01:20:53 ◼   ► like webbed out my fingers.

01:20:55 ◼   ► They just feel a little sore like that.

01:20:57 ◼   ► And that doesn't make any sense

01:20:58 ◼   ► because the center of every key

01:21:00 ◼   ► is still the same distance apart.

01:21:01 ◼   ► And I think it's something

01:21:03 ◼   ► that I would clearly get used to.

01:21:05 ◼   ► If I used this for a month and then went back

01:21:07 ◼   ► to my 2014 MacBook Pro, I would think,

01:21:10 ◼   ► oh my god, why are these keys so close to each other?

01:21:13 ◼   ► - So I've gone back and forth with this generation

01:21:15 ◼   ► of laptops.

01:21:16 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:21:19 ◼   ► - That's a euphemistic way of describing your history.

01:21:21 ◼   ► - Understatement maybe.

01:21:23 ◼   ► But so when I've spent meaningful time with them,

01:21:25 ◼   ► I have gotten used to the travel.

01:21:26 ◼   ► I've never liked it, but I've gotten used to it.

01:21:30 ◼   ► What gets me is the arrow key layout,

01:21:33 ◼   ► not having the gaps above the left and right arrow keys.

01:21:36 ◼   ► And 'cause like, so a combination of that

01:21:39 ◼   ► and what you just described of like the margin

01:21:41 ◼   ► between the keys being thinner basically,

01:21:43 ◼   ► that it makes it for me, for my hands,

01:21:45 ◼   ► it makes it harder for me to orient myself by feel

01:21:49 ◼   ► on the keyboard.

01:21:50 ◼   ► It has, it feels closer to just a flat piece of glass.

01:21:55 ◼   ► - The arrow key thing I'll never get used to.

01:21:57 ◼   ► And it seems like this is, was not a temporary blip

01:22:02 ◼   ► on Apple's design tastes, like they're all in

01:22:06 ◼   ► on full-size left and right arrow keys

01:22:08 ◼   ► and half-size up-down keys, but not having

01:22:12 ◼   ► that upside-down T shape to orient by feel,

01:22:15 ◼   ► I don't know that I'll ever get used to it.

01:22:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, I make tons of mistakes on that.

01:22:19 ◼   ► - I am literally thinking, and I swear to God,

01:22:21 ◼   ► I am thinking, even if this were my machine that I owned,

01:22:25 ◼   ► I might do it, but I'm seriously thinking

01:22:27 ◼   ► about making half-height strips of gaff tape

01:22:32 ◼   ► and putting them on the bottom of the left and right keys.

01:22:35 ◼   ► I really am.

01:22:36 ◼   ► - That's not a bad idea.

01:22:38 ◼   ► - That's, gaff tape was--

01:22:39 ◼   ► - It's just not a review unit.

01:22:40 ◼   ► - Gaff tape is how I solved my problem

01:22:42 ◼   ► with the orientation of the Apple TV remote,

01:22:46 ◼   ► is I just put a belt of gaff tape

01:22:49 ◼   ► around the bottom part of the Apple TV remote,

01:22:54 ◼   ► and then I could run my fingers along the side,

01:22:57 ◼   ► and when I feel the tape, I know which way it goes

01:22:59 ◼   ► in the dark or without looking at it.

01:23:01 ◼   ► And I kind of feel, you know, gaff tape,

01:23:04 ◼   ► Marlon Mann introduced me to gaff tape.

01:23:05 ◼   ► Gaff tape is one of the most amazing,

01:23:07 ◼   ► anybody out there who doesn't have a roll of gaff tape

01:23:10 ◼   ► in the house, go out, just go to Amazon

01:23:12 ◼   ► and buy one right now, you'll thank me later.

01:23:14 ◼   ► It is the most, it's the most amazing tape in the world.

01:23:17 ◼   ► The name comes, I believe, from the movie industry.

01:23:21 ◼   ► Gaffers are, I think, the people who like adjust the lights

01:23:24 ◼   ► and stuff like that, like the lighting stands.

01:23:27 ◼   ► And so they use this black tape.

01:23:29 ◼   ► Once they get the light in the right position,

01:23:31 ◼   ► they'll tape it down on the set so that it can't move.

01:23:34 ◼   ► But gaff tape, unlike something like duct tape

01:23:38 ◼   ► that's supposed to be permanent,

01:23:39 ◼   ► when you peel, gaff tape is very strong and it holds.

01:23:43 ◼   ► - It's cloth-like and field. - And it is cloth-like.

01:23:45 ◼   ► And so you can rip it perfectly straight.

01:23:47 ◼   ► - You can rip it by hand, you don't need scissors.

01:23:48 ◼   ► - Right, you don't need scissors.

01:23:49 ◼   ► You rip it straight.

01:23:52 ◼   ► It's easy to rip and it holds as much as you want,

01:23:56 ◼   ► but then when you unpeel it,

01:23:57 ◼   ► there's almost no residue or no residue.

01:24:00 ◼   ► - So my concern on putting it under the arrow keys

01:24:04 ◼   ► is that you might get some on the screen.

01:24:05 ◼   ► - Right, exactly, I would have, but it would be,

01:24:08 ◼   ► well, it would kind of be in the middle of the screen.

01:24:10 ◼   ► So there'd be, that's exactly my thought,

01:24:12 ◼   ► 'cause it would absorb finger oil

01:24:14 ◼   ► and then there'd be two little oily spots on the screen.

01:24:17 ◼   ► But I clean my screen regularly

01:24:19 ◼   ► because I'm very sensitive to,

01:24:22 ◼   ► I'm actually appalled at how many tiny little smudges

01:24:25 ◼   ► I've gotten on this machine in the last week.

01:24:28 ◼   ► - Maybe one of those people who has those

01:24:29 ◼   ► like microfiber cloths that you put over the keyboard

01:24:31 ◼   ► when you close the laptop?

01:24:32 ◼   ► - I used to use one of those.

01:24:33 ◼   ► I forget when I stopped, but it used to be,

01:24:36 ◼   ► I forget what generation of,

01:24:40 ◼   ► it was probably in the PowerBook era,

01:24:41 ◼   ► but up until a certain point in the PowerBook era,

01:24:44 ◼   ► it was inevitable that you would get keyboard-shaped marks

01:24:48 ◼   ► on the display.

01:24:50 ◼   ► - Well, no, see that was--

01:24:51 ◼   ► - Just by closing the display.

01:24:52 ◼   ► - It wasn't inevitable because,

01:24:54 ◼   ► I just talked to this on ETP last night.

01:24:57 ◼   ► So if you put it in a bag where there was something

01:25:02 ◼   ► on top of it where you'd carry it

01:25:03 ◼   ► so that it would compress it slightly,

01:25:05 ◼   ► if there was any pressure applied to that top screen lid,

01:25:08 ◼   ► it would contact the keyboard.

01:25:10 ◼   ► But if there was no pressure squeezing it closed more,

01:25:15 ◼   ► it wouldn't touch, 'cause I had a G4 aluminum power book,

01:25:18 ◼   ► and I heard about this and so I basically constantly

01:25:20 ◼   ► arranged my bags such that it would never get pressed on

01:25:24 ◼   ► and I never had those marks.

01:25:25 ◼   ► And everyone else I knew had them and mine was perfect.

01:25:27 ◼   ► - I didn't know about that, but back in that era,

01:25:29 ◼   ► I didn't worry about it 'cause I just used

01:25:31 ◼   ► the microfiber cloth that covered the keyboard

01:25:33 ◼   ► every time I shut the device.

01:25:36 ◼   ► I guess I kinda knew that 'cause I guess I only used that

01:25:38 ◼   ► when I put it in a bag.

01:25:40 ◼   ► I guess in two, I had never really thought about it

01:25:42 ◼   ► consciously, but if I was only closing it to keep it

01:25:44 ◼   ► on a desk, just closing it for privacy reasons

01:25:46 ◼   ► or just to shut it down, I wouldn't do it every time.

01:25:50 ◼   ► I would only use that go-between-the-keyboard-in-the-screen

01:25:54 ◼   ► rag, 'cause that's basic.

01:25:56 ◼   ► We get fancy at all microfiber cloths.

01:25:59 ◼   ► It was a rag.

01:25:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a really thin rag.

01:26:01 ◼   ► - It was a nice rag, a very nice rag.

01:26:03 ◼   ► - Probably a very expensive little nice rag.

01:26:05 ◼   ► - Right.

01:26:06 ◼   ► - No, I always want to be one of those people.

01:26:07 ◼   ► I never actually have the dedication to the idea

01:26:10 ◼   ► to actually do it, but I always kinda envy

01:26:13 ◼   ► how good people's computers end up looking

01:26:15 ◼   ► when they are those people.

01:26:17 ◼   ► But so I'm curious, so the AirKey thing aside,

01:26:22 ◼   ► as the keyboard picky individual that you are,

01:26:25 ◼   ► would you ever, like, would you be okay

01:26:28 ◼   ► with this keyboard long-term?

01:26:29 ◼   ► Like, you know, basically where we are now in the lineup,

01:26:32 ◼   ► it looks like this is, we're kind of,

01:26:33 ◼   ► you're kind of stuck with this forever now, so.

01:26:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, I could live with it.

01:26:36 ◼   ► And there are parts that I like,

01:26:37 ◼   ► I genuinely admire and appreciate at a mechanical level

01:26:41 ◼   ► and the way it feels, the way that with these

01:26:43 ◼   ► butterfly switches, no matter where on the key you press,

01:26:47 ◼   ► the entire key moves down completely flat, right?

01:26:51 ◼   ► That's new, and no other laptop keyboard

01:26:56 ◼   ► I've ever seen does that, and when I do use this

01:26:59 ◼   ► for a while and go back to my previous generation keyboard,

01:27:03 ◼   ► I still am not used enough to this

01:27:05 ◼   ► that I don't appreciate the other one overall,

01:27:08 ◼   ► but I'm blown away at how wiggly the previous

01:27:11 ◼   ► generation keyboard feels.

01:27:12 ◼   ► It's like I cannot believe how these keys wiggle

01:27:14 ◼   ► on an Apple laptop.

01:27:15 ◼   ► - See, I can see that and I can feel that,

01:27:18 ◼   ► but to me I just don't care at all.

01:27:19 ◼   ► Like it's like they solved a problem

01:27:20 ◼   ► that I would never have cared about.

01:27:22 ◼   ► But I'm also here, it's like the arrow key thing to me,

01:27:25 ◼   ► like it's, you know, the shape of those arrow keys

01:27:27 ◼   ► not being full height, like it's unnecessary

01:27:30 ◼   ► as far as I can tell.

01:27:30 ◼   ► Like I don't think there's any structural reason

01:27:32 ◼   ► why they can't have more metal there

01:27:33 ◼   ► to make that just the T-shape.

01:27:35 ◼   ► It seems like it's purely an aesthetic choice.

01:27:37 ◼   ► And honestly, that would make me like 50% happier

01:27:42 ◼   ► with this keyboard if they just return the inverted T shape

01:27:45 ◼   ► to the arrow keys.

01:27:46 ◼   ► - Absolutely, if there's one thing I could change

01:27:47 ◼   ► on the keyboard, it would be the upside down T.

01:27:51 ◼   ► Even the touch bar, I don't really mind the touch bar

01:27:53 ◼   ► as much as, I don't really like it, I can't say I use it

01:27:55 ◼   ► a lot, but I've never owned one on my personal machine

01:27:58 ◼   ► and really gotten into a workflow with it.

01:28:00 ◼   ► But I don't use function keys much either.

01:28:03 ◼   ► - Once I remapped escape to caps lock on all my keyboards

01:28:06 ◼   ► everywhere, which took about a week to get used to,

01:28:08 ◼   ► the touch bar stopped bothering me.

01:28:09 ◼   ► I still don't want it, but I'm gonna have it now

01:28:13 ◼   ► and I know that it'll be fine.

01:28:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know, I guess I could think about that.

01:28:19 ◼   ► - It's really, it's not that bad.

01:28:21 ◼   ► - How did you ever do that?

01:28:21 ◼   ► Did you do that in a system preferences?

01:28:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's in the modifier keys window,

01:28:25 ◼   ► so you would never know 'cause you use Apple keyboards.

01:28:27 ◼   ► But if you ever wanna use a PC keyboard on a Mac,

01:28:29 ◼   ► you have to usually swap command and option on one of them

01:28:32 ◼   ► 'cause like, use the Windows key.

01:28:34 ◼   ► - When I plug my extended keyboard too into a new machine,

01:28:37 ◼   ► I don't have to switch anything,

01:28:39 ◼   ► but I have to identify it in the way that they're like,

01:28:42 ◼   ► I don't know what this is.

01:28:43 ◼   ► Type the key next to the left shift key and Z.

01:28:46 ◼   ► And they're like, oh, okay, I got it.

01:28:47 ◼   ► I see where I am.

01:28:48 ◼   ► - Now this is different.

01:28:49 ◼   ► Like PC keyboard, basically they use the Windows key

01:28:52 ◼   ► to be what command is on the key code map.

01:28:54 ◼   ► So you gotta switch those.

01:28:55 ◼   ► But in that same window in system preferences,

01:28:57 ◼   ► keyboard modifier keys, you can set caps lock to be escape.

01:29:01 ◼   ► - See, what I would be tempted to wanna do,

01:29:03 ◼   ► and I'll bet it doesn't support it,

01:29:04 ◼   ► as I would be tempted to turn the back tick key to escape

01:29:09 ◼   ► and turn caps lock into the back tick tilde key.

01:29:13 ◼   ► 'Cause I almost never type back lock or tilde,

01:29:16 ◼   ► but my instinct to go top left for escape

01:29:20 ◼   ► is impossible to override.

01:29:21 ◼   ► I think it would take me forever

01:29:23 ◼   ► to get used to caps lock as escape.

01:29:25 ◼   ► But turning-- - Honestly, try it.

01:29:26 ◼   ► It's super fast, 'cause one thing that's great about it

01:29:28 ◼   ► is that you can hit it with your pinky.

01:29:31 ◼   ► Like, you don't have to move up the home row to hit escape,

01:29:32 ◼   ► so it's like, if you're like, you know,

01:29:33 ◼   ► quickly dismissing a dialogue or something,

01:29:35 ◼   ► it's really nice.

01:29:35 ◼   ► - Right, well that's like those people who,

01:29:37 ◼   ► the people who are used to the old Unix convention

01:29:39 ◼   ► of where caps lock is, making that the control key.

01:29:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, same reason.

01:29:43 ◼   ► - And the way that all the, there's a whole slew of,

01:29:46 ◼   ► move the insertion point, cursor,

01:29:49 ◼   ► whatever you wanna call it, with control, whatever,

01:29:51 ◼   ► that having it just one little thing away

01:29:54 ◼   ► from the A key for your pinky is super convenient.

01:29:56 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:29:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can't believe I'm thinking about

01:30:01 ◼   ► solving a problem on a,

01:30:03 ◼   ► This is literally like what like a $5,000 laptop.

01:30:06 ◼   ► 'Cause it does--

01:30:07 ◼   ► - I mean look, if you're gonna try the tape trick,

01:30:08 ◼   ► try it on Apple's laptop, not yours.

01:30:10 ◼   ► - The machine that they sent me is the Core i9

01:30:12 ◼   ► with the fastest processor, 32 gigs of RAM,

01:30:16 ◼   ► and the only thing that's not tippity top, tip top shape

01:30:19 ◼   ► is they gave me a measly two gigabyte.

01:30:22 ◼   ► - Two terabyte. - Two terabyte SSD,

01:30:24 ◼   ► not the four terabyte SSD.

01:30:26 ◼   ► - Only the $2,000 one instead of the $4,000 one.

01:30:30 ◼   ► - Right, that's the only thing missing from this.

01:30:33 ◼   ► Here's my rationale for this.

01:30:34 ◼   ► Number one, Apple won't care.

01:30:36 ◼   ► Number two, I'm guessing when they get a review unit back,

01:30:40 ◼   ► they probably treat it the same way as they should return,

01:30:42 ◼   ► which means it's sent for refurbishment.

01:30:44 ◼   ► - No. - No?

01:30:45 ◼   ► - No, well, I don't know this.

01:30:48 ◼   ► I can't verify it 'cause I haven't seen it,

01:30:50 ◼   ► but I believe for, I don't know if it's tax purposes,

01:30:55 ◼   ► I don't know if it's accounting purposes, some kind,

01:30:57 ◼   ► I don't know if it's really legal, if it's just policy,

01:30:59 ◼   ► but I've been told that when they get a review back,

01:31:03 ◼   ► I don't know, do they trash it?

01:31:05 ◼   ► I just, I've been told that they wipe it

01:31:07 ◼   ► and then treat it like a prototype.

01:31:11 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:31:12 ◼   ► - That's interesting, because normally,

01:31:14 ◼   ► if you return one to a store,

01:31:16 ◼   ► they don't go resell that to somebody else.

01:31:18 ◼   ► As far as I know, they send it in for refurbishing,

01:31:20 ◼   ► and refurbishing, they usually, I think they have to

01:31:24 ◼   ► replace any component that people touch

01:31:26 ◼   ► on the outside of it.

01:31:27 ◼   ► So I think, this is right into John if I'm wrong,

01:31:31 ◼   ► I think they actually replace all the casing

01:31:34 ◼   ► and keyboard and everything,

01:31:35 ◼   ► and I think the only parts they refurbish

01:31:36 ◼   ► are like the internals, right?

01:31:37 ◼   ► And so if that's true, you can put as much tape

01:31:40 ◼   ► on this keyboard as you want.

01:31:41 ◼   ► - I guess now that I think about it,

01:31:43 ◼   ► I don't, I shouldn't say that they don't refurbish.

01:31:45 ◼   ► All I know is they do promise that the first thing they do

01:31:48 ◼   ► when a review unit gets sent back is wipe it clean.

01:31:52 ◼   ► You know, and they say this in a way like,

01:31:54 ◼   ► you don't even have to worry about wiping it.

01:31:55 ◼   ► Trust us, we'll wipe it.

01:31:56 ◼   ► I still wipe 'em before I send it back, but.

01:31:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause that would also, you know,

01:32:00 ◼   ► So if it is refurbishment, that's gotta be a part