The Talk Show

226: ‘Cut That Mustache With Scissors’ With Marco Arment


00:00:00   All right, this is unfamiliar.

00:00:01   I don't know if I sound right.

00:00:02   I'm not using my microphone.

00:00:04   I'm not using my headphones,

00:00:06   although they are identical to my headphones.

00:00:08   And I'm not even using my own computer.

00:00:11   I have a review unit, 15-inch Core i9,

00:00:15   the most controversial computer in the world in front of me.

00:00:18   And I'm not even in my house.

00:00:21   I'm here with Marco Arment at his

00:00:24   bizarre summer home in New York.

00:00:29   And not coincidentally, our guest this week is Marco Arment.

00:00:33   Marco, welcome to the show.

00:00:35   - Thank you very much.

00:00:36   - I love recording shows with somebody in the room,

00:00:39   although I can't, I can see you,

00:00:41   but I do feel like the dynamic is always a little better.

00:00:45   And I say that knowing that 98% of my shows

00:00:48   are entirely over Skype.

00:00:50   - You're just throwing the rest of your shows under the bus.

00:00:52   - I am.

00:00:54   - We're gonna tell you why all the other episodes

00:00:55   of this show are less good than this, really.

00:00:58   But I have no concerns over audio drift,

00:01:01   no concerns over Skype dropouts,

00:01:03   so it should be pretty good.

00:01:05   So I guess that the biggest story,

00:01:09   I haven't done a show in like four weeks,

00:01:11   so it's been a long hiatus over the summer.

00:01:14   I've been vacationing in various ways.

00:01:18   Biggest story clearly to have dropped since last

00:01:20   I recorded a show is that Apple has come out

00:01:23   with an all new lineup of Touch Bar Mac OS,

00:01:27   touch bar MacBook Pros.

00:01:29   Every MacBook Pro with a touch bar has been updated,

00:01:32   and the one MacBook Pro without a touch bar,

00:01:36   the--

00:01:38   - The MacBook Escape.

00:01:39   - The MacBook Escape, for lack of a better term,

00:01:41   is as yet untouched,

00:01:43   and the regular MacBooks are untouched.

00:01:46   Presumably updates to those will be coming in the fall.

00:01:50   - Do you think they're finally,

00:01:52   like there's been these rumors about like, you know,

00:01:54   new MacBook Air replacement or something like that.

00:01:56   My theory is that the MacBook Air replacement is just going to be a new configuration of the MacBook escape

00:02:01   But do you think they're finally gonna give it a different name?

00:02:04   So we can stop all this nonsense about like this is the touch bar MacBook Pro versus the touch button versus the MacBook Pro with two

00:02:10   Thunderbolt 3 ports versus like it's the naming is such a mask

00:02:14   Can we just finally like hopefully get rid of that this fall? I hope so. I don't know anything about it. I

00:02:19   Hope so, though. I actually the there's to me

00:02:24   The naming of the entire MacBook line is it sounds superficial and and like for example this it is

00:02:30   Superficial the whole leg should we call it iPhone X or iPhone 10?

00:02:34   Should they have even called it that because there wasn't at least as yet there is no iPhone 9

00:02:39   Doesn't make it that's superficial. It doesn't really

00:02:42   So confusion in my opinion. I think the MacBook lineup naming

00:02:49   Sows confusion I've mentioned this before but it's madness that they continue to sell the MacBook Air

00:02:54   With the name that implies that it is thinner and lighter when it is way thicker and way heavier than the just plain MacBook

00:03:02   it makes absolutely no sense and I

00:03:05   Guess that the logic behind it is they want to drop the name air and they've successfully done that on the iPads

00:03:12   Because they've they iterate faster. So there's no more iPad air. There's just plain iPad and then there's iPad Pro

00:03:18   So the iPad has a perfectly logical naming structure in my opinion just playing iPad

00:03:24   It's cheaper has less fewer features

00:03:27   iPad Pro it's more expensive and has more features like support for the pencil and stuff like that

00:03:33   The air thing and the just plain MacBook thing

00:03:37   I mean, I don't think they're gonna change the name of the just plain MacBook, which still

00:03:41   Makes me I that's how I always write it. I write just plain MacBook. I know on your show. It's the MacBook one

00:03:47   - Well even then, not enough people recognize that,

00:03:49   so I'll usually just say the 12-inch MacBook.

00:03:52   But even that, that was a weird name to give it,

00:03:55   you know, the name MacBook without anything else

00:03:57   because that suggests that it's the bottom of the line model

00:04:00   and while that's true in performance,

00:04:02   that's not true in specs otherwise or in battery,

00:04:04   or sorry, in price.

00:04:06   - Right, right.

00:04:07   - Like it is not, it is far from the cheapest one.

00:04:09   The cheapest one is the MacBook Air

00:04:11   and that seemed to be for legacy reasons

00:04:13   when the 12-inch MacBook was released in 2015.

00:04:17   But it's been a while now that we've still,

00:04:19   it's like, it would be one thing if this was

00:04:23   like a problem for like one year or six months,

00:04:25   like while they're between cycles,

00:04:26   but we've had for three years now this confusion

00:04:29   of the MacBook is not the lowest end or cheapest MacBook.

00:04:34   The MacBook Pro includes some pretty different capabilities

00:04:38   between its different models, and the MacBook Air

00:04:41   is not the thinnest and lightest one,

00:04:44   but it is the lowest end, like, I don't know.

00:04:46   I just, please Apple, fix this naming scheme this fall

00:04:49   with whatever you're doing.

00:04:50   - Yeah, so here's, let's see what Germin said back in March.

00:04:54   Something about a lower priced MacBook.

00:04:57   I don't think they're gonna call it an Air.

00:04:58   I don't think, I'd be very, very surprised

00:05:01   if they update the Air as we know it.

00:05:03   Like in just, you know, the thing that everybody wants,

00:05:05   the oh God, why can't you just put a retina display

00:05:08   in the MacBook Air and don't change anything else

00:05:10   and I'll just buy that.

00:05:12   And I know that there are people who would,

00:05:13   that would make happy, or at least they certainly would have

00:05:17   within the last two years.

00:05:18   I don't know at this point if that still

00:05:20   would make people happy, but that's not gonna happen.

00:05:23   - Like, I would love if they just,

00:05:25   if their low-end computer was still basically

00:05:29   the MacBook Air looking thing, but with the retina screen

00:05:32   and with the Thunderbolt port replaced

00:05:33   by a single USB 3 Thunderbolt 3 port.

00:05:36   Like, that would be fine, but they're not gonna make it.

00:05:39   There's no way they're gonna make it, but it's funny.

00:05:41   Like it is kind of sad that here we are talking about how like, you know, a lot of people

00:05:47   would be very happy if they just made this thing, but Apple won't do that.

00:05:52   Apple's not going to do what their customers actually are asking for.

00:05:55   And in some cases that works.

00:05:56   Like in some cases, you know, they do something better that we actually like better and that's

00:05:59   usually how it plays out.

00:06:01   But in this case, I don't like, I think what they're actually going to do is just make

00:06:04   a de-specced, lower priced MacBook escape

00:06:09   and call that the new MacBook Air or whatever,

00:06:11   like make that the replacement for it,

00:06:13   just like take this machine that they positioned

00:06:16   when it was released, they positioned it as

00:06:18   this is the replacement for the MacBook Air,

00:06:20   but then of course it was too limited and too expensive.

00:06:23   I think they're just gonna try to address that,

00:06:25   they're not gonna make it less limited,

00:06:26   they're not gonna like add ports back to it or anything,

00:06:27   but they will try to make a version of it

00:06:30   that is less expensive without sacrificing

00:06:32   their massive margins.

00:06:33   Yeah, I don't know. It's such a popular product. It is clearly, if you have subscribed to any

00:06:42   belief whatsoever that Apple really still is serious about and cares about the Macintosh

00:06:48   as a whole, the MacBook lineup from lowest to highest end is entirely, it's their bread

00:06:55   and butter. And as much, you know, the iMac Pro, which I have yours right in front of

00:07:00   It's a great computer shows their dedication to the niche pro market

00:07:05   You know, they've promised and talked about in advance which is unprecedented an all-new Mac Pro

00:07:12   which is an even smaller niche, you know supposedly coming a

00:07:18   2019 thing quote unquote 2019 thing so next December, right? I don't think so. I think it'll be early next year. I hope

00:07:29   And and they're still popular right? I mean we they report how many max are sold every quarter it is

00:07:35   It is a completely safe it's guaranteed to assume that most of them are Mac have the name MacBook in them somewhere

00:07:43   But the lineup is a mess naming wise and spec wise, you know

00:07:50   Like the fact that the most popular one by far has to be the still the MacBook Air

00:07:54   simply because of price and they're selling I think the light time you were on my show we were

00:07:59   talking about the madness that they're selling a non retina display let alone that a non retina

00:08:05   display in their most popular product makes some degree of sense in the common sense way just that

00:08:10   of course the lowest price one is the one least likely to have a retina display because a retina

00:08:13   display is more expensive obviously than whatever you you know the crummy display in the macbook air

00:08:19   But it's just preposterous that they're, you know, here we are in 2018 and it's late July and people

00:08:26   are sending, you know, buying the computers for their kids going to college. And surely the most

00:08:31   popular one they're sending the kids off to if they're getting a brand new computer is a,

00:08:35   is a what, two or three year old MacBook Air?

00:08:37   At least, I think three or four at this point. And, you know, and it actually,

00:08:42   it's not that these people are like being, you know, dumb or cheap. The MacBook Air is still

00:08:47   actually pretty compelling if you can just overlook that it's, you know, that the guts

00:08:50   are a little bit old and that it has an ombre on the screen. But if you can overlook those

00:08:53   two things, which a lot of people do, it's still a really compelling computer. It's,

00:08:57   look, the MacBook Air is awesome. Like when that, when that generation is, like this is

00:09:01   like the second body style of the MacBook Air came out in 2010, it was, or 2009, it

00:09:07   was amazing. Like remember like even back then, it felt like you were getting away with

00:09:11   something because it was like you can look at all the other MacBooks in the lineup at

00:09:14   at the time, all the MacBook Pros, and you're like,

00:09:15   you know, actually, this MacBook Air gives me like 80%

00:09:18   of what I need in a much nicer and more attractive

00:09:22   and easier to carry package, and it remained that way

00:09:25   from that generation, like, you know, 'cause SSDs

00:09:27   basically gave it the performance it needed,

00:09:28   and it remained that way really until like two years ago,

00:09:32   where the MacBook Air was pretty much like the one

00:09:34   most people should get most of the time,

00:09:37   and it happened to also be one of the, if not the,

00:09:40   least expensive model most of that time.

00:09:42   So it did kind of feel like we were getting away

00:09:44   something all this time and maybe now Apple's like correcting that in some way but I don't know it's

00:09:48   it's the low end of the lineup is still such a mess. Here's I'm gonna read a little bit from

00:09:54   Gurman's report from March which came out before that education event in Chicago. A new cheaper

00:10:02   this is quoting Mark Gurman at Bloomberg a new cheaper MacBook like lineup laptop is in the

00:10:08   works and likely replace the MacBook Air at a price less than $1,000. Probably $9.99.

00:10:17   Yeah, right.

00:10:18   But it probably won't be ready in time for next week, the people said.

00:10:22   This was in March?

00:10:24   Yeah, this was in March.

00:10:25   Well, he was right. It probably wasn't.

00:10:28   (laughing)

00:10:30   Like, I just love, I love that because,

00:10:36   and again, I'm not saying that he's wrong,

00:10:39   I'm not saying that his sources were,

00:10:41   they're, you know, like you just said,

00:10:44   they're technically, they were right,

00:10:46   but I love that his sources were far enough away

00:10:48   that they could only say it probably wasn't going

00:10:50   to be coming in March and here we are in July

00:10:52   and it still hasn't come out.

00:10:53   - Yeah, you know, my secret sources say

00:10:54   that the Mac Pro is probably not coming out

00:10:56   next week either.

00:10:57   - Yeah, as much as iPhone stuff leaks in advance,

00:11:02   just because of the insane interest in it

00:11:08   and the insane scale,

00:11:13   how many of these things they have to have ready to go

00:11:16   on opening weekend,

00:11:18   and the Mac operates at an entire order of magnitude,

00:11:23   lower, maybe even more,

00:11:27   It does seem like Apple is able to keep Mac hardware stuff

00:11:31   under wraps from leakers.

00:11:33   - Oh yeah, remember, so right now we're right after

00:11:36   the release of the 2018 MacBook Pros.

00:11:38   They came out, what, about two weeks ago?

00:11:41   A few days before they came out,

00:11:43   there was this big report from Ming-Chi Kuo

00:11:45   about how Apple's gonna refresh basically

00:11:47   all the Macs this fall, and on that report,

00:11:50   he didn't mention this at all,

00:11:52   even though it was gonna happen literally three days

00:11:55   after this report, and all he said about the TouchBar models

00:11:59   was that they will be updated this fall.

00:12:02   He had no other information about it.

00:12:04   So clearly, here this was, this update that was happening

00:12:07   right under his nose, right at that time,

00:12:09   and he didn't even know.

00:12:10   And he's very well-sourced and usually knows

00:12:12   about such things.

00:12:14   Clearly, the secrecy is way more effective

00:12:16   on the Mac side than on the iOS side.

00:12:20   - Yeah, so I think it's reasonable,

00:12:22   even though there's near radio silence on any details

00:12:26   of what new MacBooks of various price points

00:12:29   might be released this fall,

00:12:31   I think it's very reasonable for us,

00:12:32   as interested people in the market,

00:12:35   to be optimistic that in September or October,

00:12:39   Apple will have a lot to show us and say

00:12:42   about the entire lineup,

00:12:43   including some kind of modern update

00:12:47   to their entry-level machine.

00:12:50   - I sure hope so, and I think they will.

00:12:52   I think what they're showing us,

00:12:53   I've said this in ATP before,

00:12:54   it does seem like we're in an upswing for the Mac.

00:12:57   We're in a good time where they had,

00:13:00   they're talking about the Mac Pro

00:13:01   and the Pro Display coming up soon.

00:13:03   I hope those are awesome, and they probably will be.

00:13:06   The iMac Pro is awesome.

00:13:08   The 2018 MacBook Pros,

00:13:11   I still have a lot of problems with them

00:13:12   because there's still this body generation,

00:13:15   the touch bar, all the stuff I don't like,

00:13:16   the keyboard I still don't like.

00:13:17   But I give them credit,

00:13:19   they do seem to be moving in the right direction

00:13:23   in the last couple of years.

00:13:24   I think they have course corrected on the Mac.

00:13:27   And the software side too, there's tons of motion there

00:13:30   with things like Marzipan, those are major efforts

00:13:33   and those are gonna be majorly pushing the platform forward

00:13:36   and I cannot wait for that kind of stuff.

00:13:38   And so obviously, on the hardware side,

00:13:41   you look at things like the T2 chip

00:13:43   and how this is this pretty advanced controller

00:13:47   that they have in there that's doing all sorts of stuff

00:13:48   They didn't need to do that.

00:13:50   So I do think they're on the right path now.

00:13:53   But we still need to see, what does that mean on the laptops?

00:13:55   We still have no idea.

00:13:57   And maybe this fall, maybe whatever the new cheaper one

00:14:01   is, maybe I'm totally wrong.

00:14:03   My theory, as I said a few minutes ago,

00:14:05   is basically that they're going to half-ass it,

00:14:07   that they're going to cut out some specs from the MacBook

00:14:10   Escape as it is now to make a new 999 configuration.

00:14:13   Maybe give it a 128-gig disk or something.

00:14:17   Basically, skimp out as much as possible,

00:14:18   on everything to get that price down with still a margin that Apple will accept. Right.

00:14:24   But maybe I'm wrong. And maybe what they're going to do is do what the original MacBook

00:14:28   Air did, which is debut a new body style, like without without coming out and saying

00:14:32   so like, maybe what maybe they're actually doing an original design for this new cheap

00:14:37   laptop. And maybe that design will be a preview of what's to come for the rest of the lineup.

00:14:43   Yeah, and I always took it as a hint when they when they came out with the just plain

00:14:47   MacBook and it was just called just plain MacBook and it I forget what the starting price was originally

00:14:52   But I think it was like 1600 or something 15 14. I think there might have been like a 1400 config

00:14:56   Yeah, but it was bad you kind of you very quickly got over 1500 configuring one

00:15:02   I mean to be fair that first generation were all bad, right?

00:15:04   It's just I think that last year it barely became usable right because that that original atom processor was

00:15:12   really. Yeah, and the SSD was slow and everything like that. The 2017 model really improved

00:15:17   a lot. But I always thought that the name was a very strong signal that it would become

00:15:22   the new entry level model because of it just makes product marketing sense that the one

00:15:27   without any modifier, just plain MacBook would be the entry level, but it couldn't be when

00:15:32   it debuted because they made it so crazy thin and light that they had to use, you know,

00:15:40   expensive components, even though they were slow, etc.

00:15:44   It's just the only way to make it so insanely thin

00:15:46   compared to everything before it.

00:15:48   I don't know.

00:15:49   - That's possible, but I think maybe that was their goal,

00:15:51   I don't know, but I don't think that's ever going

00:15:53   to really be successful.

00:15:54   I don't see that product, the 12 inch with the one port,

00:15:57   I don't see that being the one that becomes

00:16:00   the new entry level mass market thing,

00:16:01   because there are so many trade-offs.

00:16:04   When the MacBook Air first came out,

00:16:06   it was $1,600, I think, or $1,700 for its base,

00:16:09   And it was very limited in the first one,

00:16:11   before the nice 2010 revision.

00:16:14   It couldn't be the bottom of the line,

00:16:17   because people buying the bottom of the line

00:16:19   still have needs, they still,

00:16:21   they're buying to hit a price point often,

00:16:23   but they still have practicality needs to worry about.

00:16:26   So with the MacBook Air originally,

00:16:30   that couldn't serve that purpose even if it were cheaper,

00:16:32   because it didn't have things like a DVD drive

00:16:34   that everyone needed, right?

00:16:35   And with the 12-inch MacBook today,

00:16:39   You could make an argument that like, well, it gives up all this stuff, it gives up a

00:16:43   lot of performance compared to the 15 watt chips that are in the MacBook Air and the

00:16:46   MacBook Escape.

00:16:47   It gives up all these ports, you know, even if you set aside things like the keyboard

00:16:51   that are controversial.

00:16:53   It gives up so much, but I don't see people ever saying, you know what, I only need one

00:16:57   port for my entry level laptop.

00:16:59   Like some people who are, you know, some people can choose that and say, you know, for my

00:17:03   travel laptop or whatever, I'm fine with that.

00:17:06   But people who are buying the entry level model

00:17:08   are the mass market.

00:17:09   And one of the reasons the MacBook Air keeps selling so well

00:17:13   is that compared to the MacBook,

00:17:15   it does have a whole bunch more ports and everything,

00:17:17   and it is more versatile and everything.

00:17:18   Before that, before the MacBook Air became

00:17:20   the role in the lineup, it was that MD101,

00:17:24   the 13-inch non-retina MacBook Pro

00:17:27   that still had the DVD drive.

00:17:29   Remember, they only stopped selling that,

00:17:30   like what, a year or two ago?

00:17:31   It was very recent, that 2012 model or something like that.

00:17:34   And before the Air, that was a suspiciously large seller

00:17:39   for the exact same reason, that it was very inexpensive,

00:17:44   it was also inexpensive to spec up,

00:17:47   'cause it had a spinning disk and RAM slots,

00:17:50   so you could buy third-party stuff,

00:17:52   or even the stuff from Apple, you could get a lot of storage

00:17:53   for not that much money, and it had the optical drive

00:17:56   and had all the ports, and so people who didn't care

00:17:58   about retina, who didn't care about newness,

00:18:00   and who just wanted something very versatile

00:18:02   for like a thousand bucks or less,

00:18:04   they had that option with the 101.

00:18:06   Now optical drives are out of favor enough

00:18:09   that people don't need that anymore,

00:18:10   so they went to the MacBook Air.

00:18:12   But I don't see like 90% of your ports going away

00:18:16   being a thing that's gonna be so easily moved

00:18:18   into people's minds for that bottom of the line laptop.

00:18:21   - Yeah.

00:18:22   Yeah, so what do we think Apple should do?

00:18:26   Like if you and I had been secretly recruited

00:18:29   to Apple's MacBook development team 18 months ago

00:18:33   so that we could have a lineup for the fall of 2018

00:18:37   ready to go.

00:18:38   I kind of-- (dog barks)

00:18:41   - [Nathan] Bob, come on, man.

00:18:42   (both laughing)

00:18:42   - I kind of-- - We have a guest

00:18:44   in the room. - I kind of think we have,

00:18:45   we're on a similar page where the default machine should,

00:18:49   you know, at a 9.99 or even ideally,

00:18:52   if they could get back to 8.99 like they did

00:18:56   when they, thank you, when they had the 11-inch error

00:19:01   for $8.99 for a while.

00:19:05   And I think the reason they felt like they could do that,

00:19:07   'cause that's a rare thing for any company to do,

00:19:10   is to raise the minimum price as significantly.

00:19:13   It used to be you could walk in

00:19:14   and get an $8.99 MacBook, the 11-inch,

00:19:17   and then they did away with it,

00:19:18   and the cheapest jumped $100 to $999.

00:19:23   And I feel like the reason they could do that

00:19:24   was that the 11-inch MacBook Air,

00:19:26   even though it was cheaper,

00:19:27   was always sort of a niche product.

00:19:29   Like-- - Yeah, it was so small.

00:19:30   - It was only for people who really,

00:19:32   and I had mine for years and truly loved it

00:19:34   because it was always a secondary machine for me,

00:19:36   and I truly loved the size and portability of it.

00:19:39   It's really one of my favorite machines I've ever owned.

00:19:41   But I think people who,

00:19:43   the typical person who's buying a laptop to be their PC,

00:19:47   that's it, this is the thing that's a real computer for them

00:19:51   don't want to sacrifice the screen real estate

00:19:54   and have a slightly smaller keyboard, et cetera.

00:19:56   - Yeah, the 13-inch air was always the mass market one.

00:19:58   - So I feel like the default machine

00:20:00   should be bigger than the 12-inch MacBook.

00:20:03   Should probably have a 13-inch screen.

00:20:05   It should have a few more ports,

00:20:07   but they're not gonna include USB-A ports,

00:20:10   even though I feel like they should.

00:20:12   I mean, we should only do a whole segment

00:20:14   on the failure of the USB-C market.

00:20:17   - I do want it on ATP almost every week.

00:20:19   - I know, I know. (laughing)

00:20:23   But I think it really shows with people's,

00:20:24   as the clamor, we're recording this

00:20:26   after the software update that fixed

00:20:28   the throttling gate with the Core i9.

00:20:32   So the people--

00:20:33   - Aren't you lucky that you missed that on the show?

00:20:35   Like you didn't have like,

00:20:36   if you had an episode like last week,

00:20:38   you would have had to like do what we did on ATP.

00:20:40   It was like, look at all these YouTube things

00:20:42   and Reddit things and try to figure out what's going on

00:20:44   and try to speculate.

00:20:45   I mean, we were wrong about like half of what we said.

00:20:47   - Well, I skipped it on Daring Fireball.

00:20:49   I just didn't, I don't even think I linked to it.

00:20:51   And I got a lot of people asking,

00:20:54   most of the feedback I got was just,

00:20:56   what do you think about this?

00:20:57   And I answered by email to some people.

00:21:00   But I just didn't link to it.

00:21:02   And then of course the accusations

00:21:04   that I wasn't linking to it

00:21:05   'cause I'm in the bag for Apple

00:21:06   and I'm covering up this outrageous scandal.

00:21:11   My thought was,

00:21:12   we're sort of segwaying into the specific thing with this,

00:21:17   but my thought on that whole thing was,

00:21:19   there's just not enough evidence yet.

00:21:20   It just sounds to me like it's probably a bug,

00:21:23   and we'll know soon enough whether it's a bug

00:21:25   that can be fixed or a genuine serious engineering flaw.

00:21:28   And I'll decline to comment until there's more evidence

00:21:31   than one YouTube guy using one app, Premiere Pro,

00:21:36   which probably, the nature of which is probably

00:21:40   not that optimized for Macs, and evidence that's come out

00:21:44   since has shown that to be true.

00:21:46   - I mean, Adobe makes that, right?

00:21:47   So it's not optimized for anything.

00:21:48   - Right.

00:21:49   No, but I think, going back to your question a minute ago,

00:21:51   I think what would Apple need to do

00:21:53   to make the new MacBook Air replacement?

00:21:56   I think the MacBook Escape can almost be that.

00:21:58   It just needs a few changes.

00:21:59   And I know we're never getting USB-A back.

00:22:02   I'm not even arguing for USB-A anymore.

00:22:04   If you can fit one on the side of a laptop,

00:22:06   it is really nice for convenience.

00:22:07   But I know that's a lost battle,

00:22:09   so I'm not even saying they should do that.

00:22:12   I do argue for the SD card to be included

00:22:15   in the higher-end models.

00:22:16   I don't necessarily think it needs to be

00:22:18   in a MacBook Air replacement.

00:22:19   But I think what it does need, which it almost has,

00:22:22   is four ports and a lower price.

00:22:26   That's about it.

00:22:27   That's all it needs.

00:22:29   And I know they're probably not gonna give you

00:22:31   the four ports.

00:22:32   There's probably some limitation with Thunderbolt lanes

00:22:34   that are on the 15 watt, or PCI Express lanes

00:22:36   available on the 15 watt CPU line from Intel that it uses.

00:22:40   Like, it's probably something like that.

00:22:42   I still, there's so many problems with USB-C

00:22:45   that like, that this is even a problem.

00:22:46   Like, USB-A was never limited by Thunderbolt lane,

00:22:49   or by PCI Express lanes,

00:22:50   'cause they didn't build Thunderbolt into every port,

00:22:51   because most people don't need that.

00:22:53   So here you are wasting one of your ports on power,

00:22:57   and wasting another one on charging your iPhone,

00:23:00   and you can't have more ports,

00:23:01   because they need all the bandwidth

00:23:02   for the Thunderbolt 3 lanes that you're not using.

00:23:04   So that's a weird engineering trade-off

00:23:06   they made to begin with,

00:23:07   but I think that's all it really needs,

00:23:09   and I think that's plausible.

00:23:11   The four port thing is a risk,

00:23:12   but just making a version of the escape

00:23:14   that has cheaper pricing somehow,

00:23:18   somehow with market segmentation that they can do it,

00:23:20   I don't know, but the current laptop line,

00:23:24   like the new generation, if you exclude the old models

00:23:26   they're still selling, like the Air,

00:23:28   the new line is so expensive compared to the old ones.

00:23:31   That's a problem for them, I think,

00:23:35   in the way their products look, the way they're perceived.

00:23:37   I mean, they've always been perceived as being expensive,

00:23:40   but I think this is getting to the point of being egregious,

00:23:43   and it's getting more and more distant

00:23:45   from what people expect to pay for such a thing.

00:23:48   And then the low end kind of rotting out here

00:23:51   and being neglected for so long is not helping that at all.

00:23:54   So they need to make a good low end play.

00:23:57   And you're gonna have people who make

00:24:00   like the $200 iPhone argument a bit,

00:24:02   oh they don't have to do that,

00:24:03   they're just serving the market.

00:24:04   But like a huge part of Mac market share

00:24:06   is those like $1,000 MacBook Airs.

00:24:08   And those are getting really long in the tooth.

00:24:11   They have to replace them with something

00:24:12   and it really should be as soon as possible.

00:24:15   - Yeah, and I think it comes down to naming again,

00:24:19   just to go back to where we started,

00:24:21   is the MacBook Escape should not be called a MacBook Pro,

00:24:26   in my opinion, and it's not.

00:24:30   I mean, it is a cut below,

00:24:33   other than the fact that the aluminum frame

00:24:36   is exactly the same as the 13-inch MacBook Pros,

00:24:42   touch bar versus actual physical function keys aside,

00:24:46   and it has the same display, but internally,

00:24:49   you know, it's got a lower, a lesser CPU,

00:24:52   it has lesser graphics, it costs less.

00:24:55   It's not a MacBook Pro, it should be called something else.

00:24:59   I guess I see why they called it a MacBook Pro,

00:25:02   because it does look the same,

00:25:03   and it was introduced alongside them.

00:25:05   - It's also a great computer.

00:25:06   Like, I have one for a little while.

00:25:07   - Right.

00:25:08   - I love that escape.

00:25:09   The only reason, the only things I hated about it

00:25:11   were that I did have keyboard problems with it.

00:25:13   I had a bunch of like stuck keys

00:25:14   and weird popping and everything.

00:25:15   And so I did have keyboard problems with it

00:25:17   and the two ports were really annoying on trips.

00:25:19   Like when I would travel, I'd wanna like

00:25:21   do travel podcasting or charge stuff on my laptop

00:25:23   and only having two ports was pretty limiting.

00:25:26   But other than that, I loved that computer.

00:25:27   It was great and that's why I ordered a 13 inch

00:25:29   of the new one but I ordered the Touch Bar one

00:25:31   because I wanted the ports.

00:25:32   But like, I think the reason they called it Pro

00:25:35   was I think more, you know, because it visually

00:25:38   resembled the other 13 inch Pro just fine.

00:25:41   and also I think because they wanted to help justify

00:25:44   the cost increase, because it really was just a MacBook Air,

00:25:47   but they increased the cost so much,

00:25:49   I felt like they, that was my guess of why they did it.

00:25:51   But ultimately, if I was in charge of this product line,

00:25:54   of naming this product line,

00:25:55   I wouldn't want any responsibility,

00:25:56   'cause they would fire me immediately.

00:25:57   But if I was in charge of naming this product line,

00:25:59   and I guess I'd be fired from that too,

00:26:01   but I don't think they would call it the MacBook One

00:26:03   or the MacBook Escape, but I think I would say

00:26:07   The MacBook Air brand is too strong to throw away

00:26:11   when this generation stops being sold.

00:26:13   I think something should always be called the MacBook Air

00:26:15   because it's such a good name

00:26:17   and it has such brand equity among consumers.

00:26:20   So what I would say is rename the 12-inch MacBook

00:26:24   MacBook Air with its next generation

00:26:26   and say this is the new MacBook Air,

00:26:28   it's the 12-inch MacBook.

00:26:29   Rename the MacBook Escape to simply MacBook.

00:26:32   - I could see that.

00:26:34   I mean, there is some sense to that,

00:26:35   especially if they could get a 12-inch MacBook down to $999,

00:26:39   which I kind of think it might be their plan.

00:26:41   - Well, that doesn't even mean what I'm arguing.

00:26:42   I'm saying bring the escape, bring the 13-inch

00:26:45   down to that level. - Deny it again.

00:26:46   - Call it the MacBook.

00:26:48   And because right now you have this conflation

00:26:51   of the lowest end product is also the smallest,

00:26:54   thinnest, and lightest.

00:26:56   But that requires such trade-offs

00:26:57   that a lot of the low-end buyers aren't willing to make

00:26:59   that that shouldn't be the lowest end product.

00:27:02   It should be, the low-end product should be

00:27:04   to hit a price point, not to hit a size.

00:27:06   And so that's why the Escape should be the low end product,

00:27:09   it should be called the MacBook.

00:27:10   The MacBook Air should be the little 12 inch

00:27:13   super thin one, and then MacBook Pro

00:27:15   is the higher priced, higher powered one.

00:27:17   - And the 13 inch MacBook Escape,

00:27:19   well all the 13 inch, my current MacBook Pros are,

00:27:22   and Apple themselves emphasized this

00:27:25   when they introduced them,

00:27:26   only like two sheets of paper heavier than a MacBook Air.

00:27:30   - Yeah, it's about the same.

00:27:32   They are technically an ounce hot,

00:27:35   heavier or something like that.

00:27:36   - But I think it's grams.

00:27:37   It's like it's so small.

00:27:39   - Right, like you could probably even it up

00:27:42   just by getting some sweat and some crumbs

00:27:45   on your MacBook Air and then they'd be the same.

00:27:48   The one where the keyboard would still work.

00:27:50   - Yeah, just keep the crumbs away from the new one.

00:27:52   - Yeah, well, we'll keep going on this.

00:27:56   Let me take a break and thank our first sponsor.

00:27:58   This is gonna be good.

00:27:59   I think the sponsor's, it's coincidence,

00:28:01   sort of, but it's kind of fun.

00:28:04   There's, every single one of them is actually in use today.

00:28:08   Our first one is Tres Pontas Coffee.

00:28:11   I'm drinking it right now.

00:28:13   Marco can vouch for it.

00:28:15   This is in the Arment household.

00:28:17   There is Tres Pontas Coffee.

00:28:18   - And I didn't order it because you were coming.

00:28:20   I ordered it like long before

00:28:22   I knew you were gonna be here.

00:28:23   I ordered it by my own volition.

00:28:25   They aren't a sponsor of my show.

00:28:26   I ordered it only because they were a sponsor of this show.

00:28:28   - And we, you know, I've been here a few days

00:28:30   and we have been drinking some of Marco's own,

00:28:34   Marco roasted coffee, but it was all gone.

00:28:37   (laughing)

00:28:38   And the only other coffee in the house.

00:28:40   - Turns out the groupers drink a lot of coffee.

00:28:42   - No. (laughing)

00:28:44   One of the groupers drinks a lot of coffee.

00:28:47   I am drinking it right now.

00:28:49   It comes from a single family farm in Tres Pontas,

00:28:53   in the town of Tres Pontas in Brazil,

00:28:57   hence the name Tres Pontas.

00:28:59   They only have one variety of beans.

00:29:01   And it's very simple.

00:29:03   They have four roasts, light, medium, dark,

00:29:06   and then French roast.

00:29:07   What are we drinking?

00:29:08   I don't even know.

00:29:09   I'm guessing light.

00:29:10   - No, I think it's medium.

00:29:11   It's either medium or like the slightly dark one.

00:29:13   'Cause usually I like my coffee a little dark,

00:29:15   but not too dark.

00:29:16   So I would've gotten one of those too.

00:29:18   - I prefer the medium, I think, at home,

00:29:20   'cause they've sent me all of them.

00:29:21   And I'm just not a French roast person.

00:29:24   I find the French roast to be terrible.

00:29:26   But people who like French roasts might like it because--

00:29:28   - Spoiler, every French roast is terrible.

00:29:30   (laughing)

00:29:32   - That's my opinion as well.

00:29:33   - Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is the medium.

00:29:34   - But it's kind of a neat thing,

00:29:35   where you don't have to select the beans,

00:29:37   you just select the roast style,

00:29:38   which in a lot of cases, in my opinion,

00:29:40   is really the biggest difference.

00:29:41   If you're starting with good beans,

00:29:43   which is half the battle,

00:29:46   but then just get it roasted the way you like it.

00:29:48   That's your choice.

00:29:49   - People always ask me, where do you get good beans?

00:29:51   And what it really comes down to is not what brand name

00:29:54   is on them or anything, what it really comes down to is,

00:29:56   how well is it roasted?

00:29:57   and they give you the option for that,

00:29:59   and how freshly is it roasted?

00:30:01   And they solve that problem as well.

00:30:03   - Right, their coffee is very fresh.

00:30:06   That is their main thing.

00:30:07   They ship all the stuff out themselves.

00:30:10   Marco can vouch for this.

00:30:11   I say it every time Trace Ponta sponsors the show.

00:30:13   Coffee is a perishable item.

00:30:16   This is why it is good to buy whole beans.

00:30:18   This is why it's good to get a nice grinder.

00:30:21   And this is why it is great to get something

00:30:25   like a coffee subscription, which Trace Pontas offers,

00:30:29   to just keep fresh beans coming to you at a regular basis.

00:30:33   Now, it's not like, I don't know, like an avocado

00:30:36   or something like that where it can quickly go bad.

00:30:38   It's not that perishable, but you don't want stuff

00:30:40   that's been sitting around on shelves for weeks and weeks

00:30:43   or even months like you might get in the supermarket.

00:30:45   So, here's what you can do to get Trace Pontas.

00:30:47   You can go to their website, tracepontas.com,

00:30:53   and just order a bag or a couple of bags

00:30:55   or something like that to give it a shot.

00:30:57   You can also go to Amazon and search for it,

00:31:00   and you can get it there if it's more convenient

00:31:02   because then you can do the old one-click thing.

00:31:04   And when you buy Tres Pontas coffee on Amazon,

00:31:06   they're just using Amazon as a storefront.

00:31:08   They still fulfill it themselves.

00:31:10   It's not coming out of an Amazon warehouse

00:31:12   somewhere where it's been sitting on the shelves.

00:31:13   Tres Pontas still fulfills it.

00:31:14   They just go through Amazon for the convenience of it.

00:31:18   And the other thing they have

00:31:19   is you can get a coffee subscription,

00:31:22   and you get fresh-reroasted beans sent to you every one,

00:31:25   two, or four weeks, your choice when you sign up

00:31:28   for the subscription, and you save 10%

00:31:31   when you get a subscription compared to the regular price

00:31:34   of the coffee, but listeners of the talk show

00:31:36   get an extra 10% off by using the code "THETALKSHOW"

00:31:39   at checkout when buying a coffee subscription.

00:31:43   So you save a total of 20% off every bag with that code.

00:31:47   - I hope I used your code.

00:31:49   - I don't know, enter the code at checkout,

00:31:51   That's where you do it if you're looking for it.

00:31:53   And again, their website is traspontas.com.

00:31:57   T-R-E-S-P-O-N-T-A-S.com.

00:32:02   Picking up where we dropped off.

00:32:06   So I think that Apple has fallen too in love

00:32:08   with the name MacBook Pro to obsess on naming.

00:32:11   And I think it's exemplified with the iMac Pro.

00:32:16   Like what is the difference between a 5K,

00:32:19   27 inch regular iMac and the iMac Pro?

00:32:24   Well, there's the cosmetic difference

00:32:27   where it's space gray, which also, of course,

00:32:30   makes it run a little faster.

00:32:32   And you get the black mouse and the black keyboard.

00:32:37   - Maybe some racing stripes might make it

00:32:39   even like 10% faster.

00:32:40   - But joking aside, but it is the same display.

00:32:43   But the regular iMac has a great display

00:32:46   that is great for totally professional use,

00:32:48   graphic designers, all sorts of people,

00:32:49   or photographers and stuff like that.

00:32:52   All the real difference,

00:32:53   the reason it's so much more expensive

00:32:55   than a regular iMac has to do with technical details

00:32:57   that are genuinely professional components.

00:33:00   Xeon processors versus whatever the retail,

00:33:05   I don't even know what they're called.

00:33:06   - i9s and i7s.

00:33:07   - Right, whatever they are, who cares?

00:33:11   and that's like about 40% is just Intel marketing BS.

00:33:15   - The iMac Pro, I've already forgotten,

00:33:17   but I'm pretty sure it uses the different kind of RAM.

00:33:20   - Yep, ECC.

00:33:21   - ECC RAM, all sorts of stuff like that,

00:33:23   that truly are pro components.

00:33:26   And all sorts of other industries

00:33:30   have similar type distinctions.

00:33:32   Like one I'm vaguely familiar with

00:33:34   as a amateur photo enthusiast is like when you buy,

00:33:40   get into the canon ecosystem of cameras and they have their L series of lenses. I don't

00:33:45   even know what L stands for. Do you know? I don't I have no idea. All I know is that

00:33:49   it means expensive, right? Bring in good, right? Well, and the white some if they're

00:33:53   not entirely black, though L series often has like a white part to it there. You know,

00:33:58   if you know what to look at the telephotos are all white, right? The telephone, the big

00:34:01   long telephotos on sticks that you see at sporting games are all very intentionally

00:34:05   white with a red ring on the outside. And if you're just looking, you know, a typical

00:34:09   punter, as they would say in the UK.

00:34:11   Just looking for a nice camera and you're willing to spend

00:34:15   up to like $2,000 on the whole kit,

00:34:18   you're not looking at L series lenses.

00:34:20   They're for pros.

00:34:21   And there's just no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

00:34:24   - And it isn't just about price.

00:34:25   It's about like they add features that a lot of consumers

00:34:29   wouldn't care about that pros really need.

00:34:31   - Right, well, and they also add downsides

00:34:35   that amateurs would be annoyed by.

00:34:37   So like they're big and heavy, they're expensive.

00:34:39   - Everybody always says, so famously, everybody says,

00:34:42   you wanna get serious about photography

00:34:44   and you have an interchangeable lens camera,

00:34:46   you gotta get a 50 millimeter,

00:34:48   or equivalent if you're using different sensors.

00:34:50   If you're talking in 35 millimeter sensor size,

00:34:53   get a 50 millimeter fixed lens

00:34:54   and stick that on your camera for a few months

00:34:57   and don't even take it off

00:34:59   and just learn to shoot with that one lens.

00:35:01   So, and the quote unquote nifty 50 is like $100.

00:35:07   You get an F and it's way better lens, you know, optically because a 50 millimeter fixed

00:35:13   lens.

00:35:14   Anyway, there's also a like three or $400 50 millimeter lens, which is just made out.

00:35:19   It's less plastic.

00:35:21   It's sturdier.

00:35:22   It's, it's better, but it's not that heavy.

00:35:23   And then there's the L series one, which I bought because I'm an idiot because it goes

00:35:28   all the way down to F 1.2.

00:35:31   So it's, you know, even more, even better in low light and it weighs like six times

00:35:36   more. It is a very, very heavy piece of glass. You know, it's a pro-level 50mm lens, but

00:35:44   you pay a price that a typical consumer wouldn't. And a photographer of my abilities, I'm not

00:35:51   really capturing better images with that lens than I would be with the $400 50mm lens. That's

00:35:58   a lot lighter. I was just an idiot.

00:35:59   - Yeah, and yeah, we have that 1.2L as well.

00:36:04   Tiff bought it because you bought it, thanks a lot.

00:36:06   - Well, I got it 'cause of Dr. Wave.

00:36:09   - We can all blame Dr. Wave, thanks a lot.

00:36:11   But yeah, and we also, before that, we had the 1.4,

00:36:15   which was a $300 one, and it was totally fine.

00:36:18   And in fact, in some ways, the Pro one was worse.

00:36:21   'Cause not only is it bigger, heavier,

00:36:22   and like four times the price,

00:36:24   but it also, I think, focused a little bit more slowly.

00:36:27   'Cause there was so much more glass to move.

00:36:29   everything about it, it was worse in some pretty key ways,

00:36:33   but the reason why pros would want that

00:36:35   is because it was optically noticeably better,

00:36:38   it could go down to 1.2 if you actually needed that,

00:36:41   although almost nobody does.

00:36:42   It was probably at least slightly weather sealed,

00:36:45   which is another thing that the consumer lenses don't,

00:36:47   they hardly ever are, and most people don't need that,

00:36:51   but if you're shooting a sports game,

00:36:55   you wouldn't be using a 50 millimeter prime,

00:36:56   but assuming you were, a lot of pro contexts

00:36:59   need, you know, weather sealing, more rugged abilities, different warranties, stuff like that.

00:37:03   Trenton Larkin The big one on weather sealing for

00:37:05   for pros are pros who go out in the field where there's dirt, sand, and things like that. And the

00:37:10   weather sealing keeps stuff like that out. When you cannot, you're on assignment from

00:37:15   National Geographic, and you're in the middle of desert in Africa, you can't get your lens fixed

00:37:22   until you're gone. And it's, you know, you can't just like, oh, zip over to the camera shop and get

00:37:27   a replacement. You need that reliability. Yeah, that example is a wonderful reason why this

00:37:33   MacBook Pro keyboard is so problematic. I shouldn't speak so poorly of that 50mm lens,

00:37:38   because what I should do is sell it, and here I am telling the people who are most likely to buy it,

00:37:43   the listeners of my show, that I kind of think it's a waste of money. Because the other reason

00:37:46   I regret it in hindsight is that the sensitivity of the ISO sensitivity of digital sensors continues

00:37:56   to get so much better, so much faster,

00:38:00   that even in just like 18 months after I bought that lens,

00:38:03   like five or six years ago,

00:38:05   I could get better low-light pictures

00:38:07   with the lighter weight camera just by getting a new camera.

00:38:11   (laughing)

00:38:12   - Yeah, like I haven't shot anything below f/2.8 in years.

00:38:16   - Right, well.

00:38:17   - And even that, usually I'm up around like 4, 5.6

00:38:20   because I'm much more likely to miss the focus slightly

00:38:24   than I am to need the higher speeds.

00:38:27   And so for me, it's much more important

00:38:30   to set the aperture a little bit narrower

00:38:32   to increase the chances that my subject will be in focus.

00:38:34   - Anyway, to get back to MacBook Pros.

00:38:37   MacBook Pros are being used by people in totally,

00:38:42   like the iMac of the MacBook lineup

00:38:45   are the lower end 13-inch MacBook Pros, right?

00:38:49   They're the standard, just like a really nice

00:38:52   retina display, fast MacBook computer,

00:38:57   but they're called MacBook Pros,

00:38:59   and I kind of feel that's boxed Apple into a corner.

00:39:03   To go to this specific machine that I'm touching right now,

00:39:07   the Core i9 highest end, 15-inch MacBook Pro,

00:39:11   there is no real, there's no iMac Pro

00:39:15   of the MacBook lineup anymore.

00:39:17   There is no big jump like the way,

00:39:21   in technical ways, the ways that the iMac Pro

00:39:24   is truly remarkably capable compared to a high-end,

00:39:29   regular iMac, there is no jump like that

00:39:32   in the MacBook Pro lineup.

00:39:34   - Well, maybe there kind of is.

00:39:35   So there is no real equivalent to the iMac Pro

00:39:38   in things like the Xeon CPU,

00:39:40   like using a workstation grade processor and everything.

00:39:43   Yeah, there is none of that,

00:39:44   but in some ways you could argue that the 13 inch

00:39:48   and 15 inch are much more like the 5K iMac.

00:39:51   in the iMac Pro in the sense that they use high-end

00:39:54   but mostly still consumer parts.

00:39:56   But I wonder if things, obviously the touch bar,

00:39:59   if Apple's keeping it around,

00:40:01   honestly I still hope they don't,

00:40:02   but if they are keeping it around,

00:40:04   that is probably gonna be maintained as a Pro feature,

00:40:06   although I honestly think that makes no sense as one.

00:40:09   But what about things like the T2?

00:40:11   'Cause the T2, they introduced it in the iMac Pro,

00:40:13   now it's in the 13 and 15 inch touch bar with this ear.

00:40:17   Maybe that doesn't go down the line.

00:40:19   maybe the T2 is only like, you know, it has that, it has that faster disk controller,

00:40:26   it has more advanced encryption and security, things like FileVault are like quote free

00:40:30   now. So what if the T2 is the segmentation since like the Xeon can't be anymore? But

00:40:37   you know, they still, if you're going to draw that distinction, I think the place you draw

00:40:41   it right now is clear. The place you draw it right now is TouchBar and above is pro

00:40:46   and escape and MacBook are not,

00:40:48   which is just all the more reason why I think

00:40:52   renaming the MacBook escape to MacBook,

00:40:55   (laughs)

00:40:56   that makes so much more sense than what they're doing now.

00:40:58   Because right now, by having almost all of the laptops

00:41:03   that are recent models be named MacBook Pro,

00:41:06   it's like what would anger Merlin would be like

00:41:10   if all the items in a to-do list were marked high priority.

00:41:14   That's kind of how it is.

00:41:15   It's like, these are all the best MacBooks.

00:41:17   Well, no, they're obviously not.

00:41:18   That's not how that works.

00:41:20   You have to draw that line somewhere.

00:41:22   And just saying that the bottom end one you have,

00:41:25   this 12 inch one, just saying that is not pro

00:41:28   makes no sense at all.

00:41:29   - Right.

00:41:30   To get into the specifics of this model,

00:41:35   the thing that still has people,

00:41:38   has, what is it, a Beezerner bonnet,

00:41:40   is this idea that the Core i9 in this machine

00:41:44   is not, even post bug fix, is not running,

00:41:48   is not maintaining its highest base level of performance

00:41:52   as long as it theoretically could,

00:41:55   and as long as the same processor does

00:41:58   in certain PC laptops that are typically described

00:42:02   as gaming laptops because they're like five or six pounds

00:42:05   and very thick because they have it,

00:42:07   just cooling systems, it's all about cooling

00:42:10   and to have a cooling system that can let it run

00:42:14   at clock speeds that it's capable of,

00:42:18   it is impossible in today's world

00:42:20   to do it in this form factor.

00:42:21   So in theory, what some people obviously

00:42:25   are dying for Apple to do, and I don't think

00:42:27   they're going to do, is make a thicker 15-inch,

00:42:29   or go back to 17-inch, or something like that,

00:42:32   to make a bigger, heavier system that can just,

00:42:34   all I want is for it to run as fast as it can.

00:42:38   - Yeah, and back when this controversy

00:42:42   was erupting last week, I was more perturbed than I am now

00:42:46   about the fact that it wasn't maintaining the base clock.

00:42:48   Now I know more about how this stuff works

00:42:50   than I knew last week, and now I know things like

00:42:54   how modern Intel CPUs in the high-end laptop like this

00:42:58   almost never can maintain their base clock

00:43:00   for long periods of time.

00:43:01   Almost all of them, even last year's models,

00:43:03   like ever since Kaby Lake and now Coffee Lake,

00:43:06   these processors are, because of Intel's problems

00:43:08   moving away from 14 nanometer, these processors

00:43:11   are cramming way more transistors

00:43:14   and way higher clock speeds

00:43:15   into this old manufacturing technology

00:43:18   than what it was ever intended for

00:43:19   and what these laptops were intended for.

00:43:21   So Intel is really pushing the boundaries

00:43:23   to try to get better performing chips out every year

00:43:27   when they can't move forward on their process yet.

00:43:30   That the laptops are having to deal

00:43:32   with higher and higher thermals.

00:43:34   And so part of my easing on my anger on this

00:43:39   was just learning that, yeah,

00:43:41   is actually not new, that many of the laptops recently can't maintain max base clock under

00:43:46   parallel workloads for more than a half hour or something like that. But also I've learned

00:43:51   that the PC world is having the exact same struggles. That like, it is, and this doesn't

00:43:55   necessarily make it okay, but it is nice to know, like it isn't just Apple messing up

00:43:58   here, that other PC laptops that are considered like thin lights that have these processes

00:44:05   in them are actually in worse shape usually, that usually that either they cool it worse

00:44:10   they're cooling these same chips at two roughly the same performance level, but with more

00:44:15   noise. And so the only thing that Apple is not competing well against here is what you

00:44:21   mentioned, basically, the gaming laptops, which are really like, they look ridiculous.

00:44:25   I mean, I've never even seen one in real life. But I've seen like the pictures of like, they

00:44:28   they're basically like an inch thick on the bottom. And they have these giant vents on

00:44:32   all the sides. And they're apparently very loud, because of course, they'd have to fit

00:44:35   it like a big fan. They have to be very loud. And so like, that's something that like, what

00:44:39   - What aspect of that description

00:44:41   is the most offensive to Apple?

00:44:44   I don't know if Johnny Ive is a noise nut,

00:44:48   but he probably is.

00:44:50   That's one thing I don't know if I can say about him.

00:44:52   We certainly know what his aesthetic tastes are.

00:44:55   And thicker, heavier, big grill type vent.

00:45:00   - Yeah, Apple's been doing very well

00:45:02   for years on keeping their stuff quiet.

00:45:05   They've been great on fan noise,

00:45:07   and they'd be getting better and better at it.

00:45:09   And so, that's why one of the reasons I'm so impressed

00:45:11   by the iMac Pro is that it is silent

00:45:14   with everything I throw at it.

00:45:16   I've only heard of people saying if you max out

00:45:18   the CPU and the GPU, then you can hear the fan.

00:45:21   I've never done that.

00:45:22   I just max out the CPU and the GPU sets mostly idle.

00:45:24   So you can do whatever you want to the CPU and the iMac Pro

00:45:26   and you won't hear it, it's fantastic.

00:45:28   And so, yeah, those giant gaming laptops,

00:45:31   that's not a product Apple's ever gonna make.

00:45:32   Even if the market demands it,

00:45:34   they will never be able to swallow their Apple-ness

00:45:37   and make that, they would not do that.

00:45:40   - I don't know if Johnny Ive in particular is a noise

00:45:42   and I suspect he is,

00:45:43   but I know that Apple institutionally is,

00:45:46   and that's part of, one of the most fun things I've done

00:45:49   in recent years was the behind the scenes tour

00:45:51   of their audio testing lab,

00:45:53   either right before or right after HomePod came out,

00:45:57   I think right before.

00:45:58   But you guys remember, it was earlier this year,

00:46:01   like March I think, maybe February,

00:46:04   a bunch of us in the media were invited to Apple and they gave us this tour of an entire building

00:46:10   on, you know, right across the street from the old infinite loop, where all they do is test. I mean,

00:46:18   they had all new rooms just for the HomePod, amazing new rooms that they built specifically

00:46:23   and only for HomePod. But the whole room, the whole team started as a place where they took

00:46:31   all of their products. They even tested the ambient noise that an iPod made back when

00:46:37   the iPods made noise because they had hard drives, these little tiny microwave-sized

00:46:43   anechoic chambers where they'd put an iPod and have it play and test to make it quiet.

00:46:48   So the idea that they're going to make something that, fan noise aside, it'll run a Core i9 as fast

00:46:56   as theoretically possible, that's never going to happen.

00:46:58   - Yeah, basically, I think one of the conclusions

00:47:01   I've come to with this whole i9 throttling thing

00:47:04   is that laptops, if you want a very high performance laptop,

00:47:09   it's a bigger compromise than it's ever been.

00:47:12   Because you can't, in what people want in laptops,

00:47:16   which is they want them to be as portable as possible,

00:47:18   they want them to be reasonably lightweight,

00:47:20   they don't want them to be super thick

00:47:21   and covered in vents unless they're gamers,

00:47:22   but that market is well served elsewhere.

00:47:25   So what people want in a laptop is completely at odds with what a high performance system

00:47:30   needs in terms of thermals, battery, power, and noise. And so the path to happiness in

00:47:38   a laptop is either to go lower spec, I think, like make it not need to be so powerful and

00:47:46   go with something like an eGPU if those are good. Although honestly, I can't back to that

00:47:49   yet because it's too early to know whether those are actually good or whether there's

00:47:52   annoyances or big limitations or bugs or whatever else.

00:47:55   So who knows?

00:47:56   But hopefully that'll pan out well.

00:47:58   Or if you need all that power, really consider a desktop.

00:48:03   'Cause desktops are so good now.

00:48:06   And I feel like trying to,

00:48:08   like the machine you have in front of you here,

00:48:09   there's like maxed out i9 15 inch,

00:48:12   has so many crazy compromises and limitations.

00:48:15   If you actually need to use all the power it has,

00:48:18   it's not fun.

00:48:20   Like the only advantage it has

00:48:21   as you can take it anywhere.

00:48:23   And you can just have one computer

00:48:25   and you can bring it on a plane

00:48:26   and have all that power with you.

00:48:27   And a lot of people need that

00:48:28   and that's why they buy these things.

00:48:29   But to me, the path to happiness on a laptop

00:48:31   is closer to the middle of the lineup.

00:48:34   - Yeah, tell your boss you need to upgrade to first class

00:48:36   because you need to work on your 15-inch MacBook Pro

00:48:39   while you're on the plane.

00:48:40   It requires a business requirement.

00:48:42   - And I hope you have seat power.

00:48:43   - Right. (laughs)

00:48:46   I guess if you need the power, yeah, you probably will.

00:48:49   - I mean, battery life on these,

00:48:50   like there was that controversy when they came out

00:48:51   consumer reports and everything, but battery life

00:48:54   on the modern laptops, what we have,

00:48:57   we have laptops getting thinner and lighter

00:48:59   and the batteries are shrinking because

00:49:01   if you're just sitting around typing email

00:49:03   and browsing the web, they're getting more efficient

00:49:04   than ever, but if you're actually pushing that power,

00:49:07   if you're actually using that processor, using the GPU,

00:49:10   if you're pushing it, they have worse battery life than ever

00:49:13   because they're designed for this low idle envelope

00:49:16   and once you push it, once you're doing something with it,

00:49:19   you're really having a problem with that battery

00:49:21   if you're on a long flight with no power.

00:49:23   - Yeah, although I will say in terms of battery life,

00:49:26   this machine in front of me,

00:49:27   I've been running on battery power

00:49:28   ever since we came into Marco's office to record this show,

00:49:32   and the battery meter still says 100%.

00:49:35   Now I'm not pushing the limits of this.

00:49:37   The show is being recorded into audio hijack

00:49:40   over on Marco's iMac Pro.

00:49:42   But I've got my, you know,

00:49:43   I've got all my regular apps running,

00:49:46   mail, Safari, lots of tabs, you know,

00:49:48   and the display is on and fairly bright.

00:49:51   and it still says 100%.

00:49:52   - Yeah, because what you're doing there is typical,

00:49:55   a light productivity workload, web browsing, email,

00:49:58   stuff like that, and you're barely interacting

00:49:59   with it at all, so that's even lighter.

00:50:02   It's optimized for that, and the chips now

00:50:03   are so good at power management when they're being

00:50:06   lowly utilized, I guess, minimally utilized,

00:50:09   then they're great at that, and it could probably

00:50:11   last 15 hours like that.

00:50:12   But if you try to export something from Final Cut,

00:50:16   we'll have a very different story.

00:50:17   - Yeah, and it's funny, we were talking about this

00:50:19   off the show earlier, but in the days

00:50:21   that I've been testing this machine here

00:50:23   and seeing how the battery performs,

00:50:25   I've rethought an assumption that I came up with

00:50:28   a few years ago.

00:50:29   So the last time I personally bought a MacBook

00:50:31   was my mid-2014 13-inch MacBook Pro,

00:50:36   and I just maxed out everything.

00:50:39   I got the most RAM I could get,

00:50:41   16 gigabytes, sounds terrible today.

00:50:43   - That's still pretty good.

00:50:45   - I got the fastest processor they sold at the time,

00:50:47   and I think the max SSD, which was one terabyte.

00:50:52   And it was all money well spent

00:50:54   because here I am four years later still using it,

00:50:56   still not really thinking about replacing it.

00:50:58   That's my style of Mac, I buy a new iPhone every year,

00:51:01   but my style of buying a Mac is to get one,

00:51:04   only when I really feel like I need it,

00:51:05   and then max it out and hopefully use it for many years

00:51:09   'cause I just hate configuring a new machine just so.

00:51:13   And I love having one,

00:51:15   Like once I'm past like that year 18 month mark

00:51:18   where I feel like any kind of lemon component might blow,

00:51:21   I feel like this thing is reliable.

00:51:25   And my 2014 MacBook Pro I've been raving about

00:51:28   has never needed service for anything.

00:51:30   Not one case of anything has anything ever gone wrong in it.

00:51:34   So I love that.

00:51:35   But I was thinking when I bought it,

00:51:38   and battery life has been good,

00:51:40   it's good enough that I'm still happy with it,

00:51:42   but I never really pressed the CPU,

00:51:44   and my thought was, I don't know why I maxed out the CPU.

00:51:47   I don't do anything CPU intensive,

00:51:49   or else I do it so seldom that it's not worth buying

00:51:54   and getting what I presume to be worse battery life

00:51:58   because I'm running a faster CPU than I need,

00:52:02   whereas the baseline CPU,

00:52:03   like I need the SSD versus the hard drive.

00:52:06   I need the extra RAM because I'm such an idiot

00:52:09   and keep dozens and dozens of Safari tabs open at all times.

00:52:14   I don't need CPU. But I think you're right looking at this, that even with this Core i9, which in

00:52:19   theory as a CPU could burn battery faster than any other CPU in the lineup just because it's got

00:52:26   extra cores, you know, that's the nature of the fastest CPU. But here, when I'm doing my typical

00:52:31   workload, here I am literally 55 minutes into running on battery, and the battery meter still

00:52:37   says 100 percent. It still hasn't dropped to 99. So I think you're right, you know, that the power

00:52:43   Power management when they don't need it is crazy.

00:52:46   - Yeah, and I wouldn't worry that you're burning

00:52:48   extra power when you're doing stuff like this,

00:52:50   'cause I think the power management's good enough

00:52:51   that you don't have to worry that if you buy

00:52:53   the high-end CPU that your idle power will be much worse,

00:52:56   'cause it won't be.

00:52:57   But I think what we've seen a lot in the recent generations

00:53:01   is we're limited so much by thermals

00:53:03   that the difference between whatever comes

00:53:06   in the base model of a given size laptop

00:53:09   and whatever the highest CPU is

00:53:11   is not as big of a performance difference

00:53:13   you might think. Like usually it's within maybe 10, 15% from the base model to the highest

00:53:19   end CPU, even if the advertised clock speed might be big, like it might say it might go

00:53:23   from like 2.2 to 2.9. And so you'd think that would be a much bigger than 15% improvement.

00:53:29   But in fact, you know, because of turbo boost, and you know, everything's so complicated

00:53:32   now. Ultimately, if you're buying a new laptop, if you are concerned about bang for your buck,

00:53:39   I would say get the most storage you can first,

00:53:42   and then RAM is second priority,

00:53:44   and only upgrade the CPU if you really are okay

00:53:48   losing that money, because it matters so little.

00:53:50   Most of the laptops I've had for the last decade,

00:53:53   I've just had the base model CPU, and it's been totally fine.

00:53:55   - I totally agree with that, and one thing

00:53:57   that I probably would have said differently

00:53:58   five or six years ago is five or six years ago,

00:54:01   I probably would have said RAM first, storage second.

00:54:04   But one of the differences between SSD and spinning disks

00:54:08   is that if your machine does need to swap,

00:54:12   which is when it starts writing stuff in memory to disk.

00:54:16   Yeah, I say disk, but you know.

00:54:18   With a hard drive, it was just awful.

00:54:22   As soon as you went to swap, I could tell right away.

00:54:27   I would just be like, oh, I need to quit Safari

00:54:30   and relaunch it because I can tell it's swap.

00:54:32   Whereas with SSD, of course SSD is not as fast as RAM,

00:54:36   But it is fast enough that it's,

00:54:40   I think you're right, prioritize SSD storage first,

00:54:43   then RAM.

00:54:44   - And also, I think the calculus changed also

00:54:46   because back 10 years ago, if your hard drive was filled up,

00:54:49   you could upgrade it.

00:54:50   (laughing)

00:54:51   For not that much money.

00:54:52   And today, you can't upgrade any of these specs anymore.

00:54:56   So to me, and because I've occasionally been impatient

00:55:00   and just walked to an Apple store and bought the base model,

00:55:04   then I've often had that 256 gig SSD.

00:55:07   And man, it's like that killed the laptop for me.

00:55:11   Like over time, what was the limiting factor

00:55:13   that made me the most unhappy with it

00:55:15   or made me have to jump through the most hoops

00:55:17   or have the most limitations was disk space.

00:55:20   And you can never upgrade it.

00:55:22   So I kind of learned that lesson

00:55:24   over two different laptops that I got that way

00:55:26   and realized, okay, I'm now getting the 512 at least

00:55:29   with whatever I do.

00:55:33   All right, let's take another break here

00:55:34   and thank our next sponsor.

00:55:36   And our next sponsor is Mack Weldon.

00:55:40   Mack Weldon's mission is simple,

00:55:41   to make sure all of your basics and beyond

00:55:43   are smartly designed and shopping from them

00:55:45   is easy and convenient.

00:55:46   What kind of basics are we talking about?

00:55:48   We're talking about stuff like underwear, socks, T-shirts.

00:55:52   They founded Mack Weldon because they wanted more

00:55:55   out of the basics and they always questioned

00:55:57   how something so essential could be such a pain

00:56:00   in the ass to buy.

00:56:01   The frustration was real in there.

00:56:03   Eureka moment happened in an apartment store aisle full of brands that dominated their top drawer

00:56:09   You know that the big-name ones the ones that advertise on TV

00:56:11   Surrounded by a mind-numbing assortment of underwear and socks. They realized that consistent fit and quality

00:56:18   We're really a game of roulette

00:56:20   You could buy a pack of t-shirts and like one of them like the collar starts fraying like two times after your ward

00:56:25   so they took matters into their own hands and they started from scratch and

00:56:30   engineered even their own fabric.

00:56:32   Mack Weldon stuff is not like white label stuff

00:56:35   that they buy and just stick a Mack label label in,

00:56:37   a Mack Weldon label in.

00:56:40   They even engineered their own fabric.

00:56:43   I've been wearing their stuff for years.

00:56:46   I'm actually wearing a pair of Mack Weldon underwear

00:56:49   right now, literally, as I record.

00:56:51   - Me too, and I got one of their shirts on.

00:56:53   - I do not have one of their shirts on,

00:56:55   but I am just wearing a novelty T-shirt.

00:56:57   So it's, I don't have an under,

00:56:58   If I had an undershirt on, it would be one of theirs.

00:57:01   And I love, I don't like V-neck t-shirts,

00:57:03   but I love V-neck undershirts

00:57:05   because then you don't see the shirt

00:57:07   when you unbutton the top button.

00:57:09   So I have an entire drawer

00:57:11   full of white Mack Weldon V-neck t-shirts.

00:57:15   I bought enough so that I would never have to worry

00:57:18   that I don't have one on, or don't have one ready to go.

00:57:22   Really great stuff.

00:57:24   I have a ton of their socks.

00:57:26   I don't even know if I could count

00:57:28   how many of their socks I have.

00:57:30   And I know it sounds stupid.

00:57:32   There are just things that I've gone through life

00:57:34   and I just never thought about.

00:57:35   And I spent decades of my life never thinking about socks.

00:57:39   But it's crazy because every single thing about,

00:57:43   every single thing I own,

00:57:45   I always want something that I think is excellent.

00:57:48   Like I like nice watches.

00:57:50   I like, I care about what brand hat I wear.

00:57:53   I, you know, last time I bought a car,

00:57:55   I spent an inordinate amount of time researching it.

00:57:59   Well, why did I not think about socks?

00:58:01   Having nice socks is so much more comfortable

00:58:05   than having ratty old socks that are worn out.

00:58:08   I don't know why I was like 40-something

00:58:12   before I began caring about socks.

00:58:14   - It's one of life's great pleasures

00:58:15   to have really good socks and underwear.

00:58:17   - It is amazing.

00:58:18   And I spend large parts of my life

00:58:21   typically not even leaving my house,

00:58:23   and I just walk around wearing socks.

00:58:25   It's the thing that's on my foot

00:58:26   more than anything else in the world.

00:58:28   Why not?

00:58:29   It's really great stuff, and it really is easy to buy.

00:58:32   So I think it's great products.

00:58:35   Literally, they're being worn right now.

00:58:37   I didn't even know Marco was wearing them.

00:58:38   I didn't run this by him before I am, but there you go.

00:58:40   - It's literally, the underwear is all I wear anymore,

00:58:43   period, and the shirts, I'm probably wearing

00:58:45   one of their t-shirts in the summertime,

00:58:48   nearly 100% of the time, and in the wintertime,

00:58:50   maybe half the time.

00:58:52   If I could only keep one of their products,

00:58:54   'cause there's a lot of places to buy socks,

00:58:56   even though their socks are nice,

00:58:57   but to me, the undershirts are the best.

00:58:59   If I could only keep one,

00:59:00   if you said you have to get rid of everything,

00:59:02   it would be the V-Neck white undershirts,

00:59:04   which are so comfortable.

00:59:06   And I realize this now as I think about it,

00:59:09   I haven't ordered them in quite a while.

00:59:11   So the ones I have, and they all look brand new.

00:59:13   - They hold up, yeah.

00:59:14   - Yeah, so I'm thinking about that right now.

00:59:16   I can't remember the last time I bought new stuff there.

00:59:17   I should actually go to their website

00:59:19   and see if they have anything new.

00:59:20   but the white v-neck undershirts,

00:59:23   they hold up tremendously.

00:59:24   They, mine all look brand new.

00:59:25   They hold their shape, really terrific stuff.

00:59:28   So that's my very favorite product.

00:59:30   Here's what you gotta do.

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00:59:59   save 20% on your first order.

01:00:01   You'll thank me later.

01:00:02   My thanks to Mack Weldon.

01:00:04   Let's get into specifics about this machine.

01:00:08   I can't really do a full review.

01:00:09   I think I've had a, I forget when I got this.

01:00:11   I think Friday.

01:00:15   So I've probably, this is probably my seventh day

01:00:17   of using this machine.

01:00:19   I did something new with this machine

01:00:21   that I haven't done before out of what I think

01:00:23   is an irrational fear.

01:00:25   But for all of my years of testing MacBooks and stuff,

01:00:29   I never used migration assistant to move stuff

01:00:34   from an old machine.

01:00:35   Nope, because--

01:00:36   - How do you do it?

01:00:37   Do you set up new every time?

01:00:38   - Yeah, I have like this whole checklist in an Apple.

01:00:41   So I have an Apple Note with what to do with a new Mac.

01:00:45   and you get the new Mac and I'd set it up factory refresh

01:00:50   and I'd sign in to iCloud.

01:00:52   And so once I'm signed into iCloud

01:00:54   and I'd go through the, you know,

01:00:56   do you wanna send a developer information,

01:00:59   all the things you gotta do.

01:01:00   And you know, you wanna turn on Siri,

01:01:01   you wanna set up touch ID, blah, blah, blah.

01:01:03   Okay, and then it spins for a little bit.

01:01:05   And then boom, you're at a default desktop.

01:01:08   Right away, because you're signed into iCloud,

01:01:10   your notes start filing in.

01:01:11   And then I would go to Apple Notes, find that note,

01:01:14   and start going through the list of things

01:01:16   to install side by side.

01:01:18   And I think that's partly explains why I hate

01:01:22   getting a new Mac because it's a lot of work.

01:01:25   So this time I was like, well, I'm going,

01:01:27   this is gonna be great, I'm gonna be using,

01:01:28   I'm going to Marco's for a couple of days next week,

01:01:32   but I don't have a lot of time,

01:01:34   so why don't I try migration assistant?

01:01:36   And if I don't like it, I can wipe it clean.

01:01:37   So I tried migration assistant.

01:01:39   And I have to say, I'm pretty dumb

01:01:41   for not having used it before.

01:01:42   It's kind of amazing how much stuff moved over.

01:01:45   Not everything, one thing that I'd noticed,

01:01:48   or at least for me, I don't know if this is by design or not,

01:01:50   but nothing that's a login item moved over.

01:01:52   Like when it was done, it took like,

01:01:54   and I just did it over WiFi at home,

01:01:56   and it took about four hours

01:01:58   with the two machines side by side.

01:02:01   And when it was done and I logged in,

01:02:02   this looks like almost identical to my 13,

01:02:07   my personal 13-inch MacBook Pro, just on a 15-inch display.

01:02:11   and almost all of my apps moved over.

01:02:14   At least one of them, when I first,

01:02:17   Fantastic Al for some reason, when it went to launch,

01:02:19   said this app is damaged, move it to the trash

01:02:22   and redownload from the app store,

01:02:23   which I did and then it worked.

01:02:26   I don't know what happened there.

01:02:28   The only thing I noticed was that nothing

01:02:30   that was a login item, the things that I have

01:02:33   that launch automatically when I log in,

01:02:34   none of them came over.

01:02:36   I don't know if that's a security,

01:02:37   I don't know if that's a bug,

01:02:38   or if it's like a security thing or something.

01:02:40   Could it be like a cruft reducer? Right? Over time that those things get all crazy?

01:02:44   one of the things that moved over that I'm blown away by is a bunch of

01:02:49   Pearl modules that I have installed non-standard pearl modules from the CPAN archive. I

01:02:56   Couldn't believe that they moved over. I've got some services that do things automatically and some of them I know

01:03:01   Rely upon modules you have to download

01:03:03   And I don't do the thing like Syracuse if he's listening to this episode is going to cringe

01:03:09   I don't do the thing that people Rex pearl experts recommend which is leave system pearl as it is and

01:03:17   Use homebrew or something to install your own

01:03:20   Personal version a second version of pearl or any other open source scripting language that you use

01:03:26   Install your own and any kind of custom stuff you want to set up do it there and leave system pearl alone

01:03:31   I don't do that. I just install CPAN levels in the system, but maybe I don't even remember

01:03:38   Maybe when I set up my personal MacBook years ago, I did the thing where

01:03:43   When I install CPAN modules at the terminal, they are still being put somewhere in a dot

01:03:50   Directory in my home folder and so that migration assistant when it moved over my whole home folder

01:03:57   It included all those weird Unix II

01:04:00   dot whatever in

01:04:03   quote-unquote invisible directories

01:04:06   - Yeah, maybe.

01:04:07   I mean, 'cause I don't think it moves over things

01:04:08   that are in user local or anything like that.

01:04:11   - Right.

01:04:11   - I will say, I have had really good luck

01:04:14   with migration assistant before.

01:04:16   The only thing is, if you try to do it over Wi-Fi

01:04:19   or over the network, it's usually terrible.

01:04:21   But if you can find a way to do it over a cable in some way,

01:04:23   like if you must wire Ethernet,

01:04:26   but even better than that is Thunderbolt

01:04:28   to target disk mode.

01:04:30   If you can do that, it's usually pretty reasonable,

01:04:33   time-wise, it usually finishes without problems.

01:04:35   It's pretty good.

01:04:36   I've had very few failures.

01:04:38   - It did move over user local bin.

01:04:41   - That's interesting.

01:04:42   - 'Cause I have not installed Homebrew on this machine

01:04:44   and I just typed which brew

01:04:45   and it says user local bin brew.

01:04:48   So it did move over that.

01:04:49   It's amazing.

01:04:50   - So yeah, so maybe it moves over user local

01:04:52   but just not user, you know, so that way like,

01:04:55   maybe that's why you're supposed to use your local

01:04:57   on Mac for stuff like that.

01:04:58   - So I don't know if this is a recent thing.

01:04:59   I don't know if I've been missing out on this for years.

01:05:02   I don't know if the,

01:05:03   But whoever inside Apple is responsible

01:05:06   for migration assistant, moving over so much of this stuff,

01:05:10   I thank you sincerely because I really spent

01:05:14   almost no time whatsoever configuring this machine

01:05:17   before leaving for this trip.

01:05:18   And it's done everything I've needed to.

01:05:21   I brought my personal MacBook Pro as a backup

01:05:25   just in case I got here and I needed it for some reason

01:05:27   and I haven't needed it for anything.

01:05:29   It's really remarkable.

01:05:30   So anybody else out there with my same irrational fear

01:05:34   that migration assistant is going to leave me

01:05:37   with more work to do than doing it all by hand,

01:05:40   give it a try next time.

01:05:41   I mean, the worst that happens is you just wipe it

01:05:43   and start over, but I was blown away.

01:05:45   - Yeah, I think a lot of that comes from,

01:05:47   like, and because I've used migration assistance for years,

01:05:49   and I've only done a very small number

01:05:52   of clean installs on my Mac ever.

01:05:54   Like, it's probably like less than four

01:05:57   in the 12 years or 14 years I've been using Macs full time.

01:06:02   And so it almost always means migration

01:06:05   is just to move stuff, and it's great.

01:06:07   I think a lot of that fear comes from Windows switchers,

01:06:10   like me, because Windows always had upgrade install

01:06:13   versus clean install, and the upgrades and migrations

01:06:16   for Windows were, at least back when I was using Windows,

01:06:19   horrible, incredibly unreliable.

01:06:22   It was almost always a bad idea to do anything

01:06:24   but a clean install.

01:06:26   Yeah, but Windows even had the or still has I don't even know but had the reputation that

01:06:30   even if you're not moving to a new machine, your existing installation is going to dissolve

01:06:35   over time. Oh, yeah, I read like, just part of like a thing that computer geeks had to

01:06:39   do and probably still do like, I had to reformat and start my windows installation clean, I

01:06:45   think about every year or so. Right. So why would you move an installation to a new machine

01:06:49   when you're going to have to reinstall on your regular machine anyway? Exactly. It was

01:06:53   it was like recreation, like you defrag your disk

01:06:55   and then every once a year you reformat

01:06:57   and reinstall Windows for fun.

01:06:58   - I don't have any experience with Windows.

01:07:00   I mean, I've used Windows, seriously,

01:07:03   well over a decade ago now, so it's ancient.

01:07:06   But even back then, I never was a regular Windows user,

01:07:09   never owned a Windows machine.

01:07:11   I just think, I think it's based on the fact

01:07:13   that maybe even going back to the classic Mac OS era,

01:07:17   the migration assistant didn't work well,

01:07:19   or wasn't good enough for me.

01:07:21   I don't think it's completely without some experience

01:07:26   trying Apple's, okay, you have a new Mac,

01:07:28   let's copy stuff from your old Mac.

01:07:30   I don't know if they always called it Migration Assistant,

01:07:32   but at some point I tried it,

01:07:34   but literally it might be 15, 20 years ago,

01:07:35   and it might even be back in the classic era,

01:07:39   and it just was completely unsatisfactory.

01:07:42   - Yeah, I mean, my experience with it

01:07:44   has been basically like, if you want a clean install,

01:07:47   just like for organizational purposes,

01:07:48   or to try out new ways of doing things, or whatever,

01:07:51   Go for it, that's fine.

01:07:52   But migration assistant is so good

01:07:54   that you don't need to really ever do that.

01:07:56   It's totally optional.

01:07:58   If you don't want a clean install,

01:07:59   you never have to do one.

01:08:01   - Yeah, and you know what, I'm thinking about it.

01:08:03   Even things like my shell.

01:08:04   So I've never really learned a bash.

01:08:09   I can use it, but I'm not a bash expert.

01:08:12   I never had a super complicated bash RC file.

01:08:17   So I switched to Fish at some point in the last year.

01:08:22   And I find it to be very fun,

01:08:24   and I love that it doesn't have all these

01:08:26   50-year-old Unix conventions.

01:08:29   And it's my default shell on this machine.

01:08:33   So without me doing it, when I opened Terminal,

01:08:37   it still is the same default as the last machine.

01:08:39   So somewhere within Apple,

01:08:41   somebody cares about the 1% of Mac users

01:08:44   who do things like install stuff and use their local bin.

01:08:47   I bet it's actually well less than 1%.

01:08:49   Right, I'll bet it is.

01:08:51   But because I'll bet that 1% includes the sort of people who are engineers on the migration assistant team,

01:08:58   there's a high likelihood somehow somebody did the work for that, and I appreciate it.

01:09:03   It's a lot of pros. A lot of pros are developers.

01:09:07   A lot of developers put their, especially web developers, put even more stuff there.

01:09:11   And that's a pretty big market for the MacBook Pro and Macs in general.

01:09:15   That's actually, you know, that's something

01:09:17   that they should do, so yeah, I'm glad they do.

01:09:19   - Other than that, I love the machine.

01:09:22   Right now, it's still, it has dropped below 100%.

01:09:25   We're at 98% battery life.

01:09:29   It is-- - Thrilling.

01:09:31   - It is absolutely cool to the touch,

01:09:34   even right at the base of the display

01:09:36   where it gets hot faster.

01:09:38   It runs very cool when you're doing minimal work.

01:09:41   The display is lovely.

01:09:43   True Tone works exactly as I expected it to,

01:09:47   which is I've already forgotten it's there.

01:09:49   (laughing)

01:09:50   But then when I look, like my son brought his laptop

01:09:52   on vacation, when I look at his screen

01:09:54   in certain lighting conditions here,

01:09:55   I'm like, oh my God, that looks terrible.

01:09:58   (laughing)

01:09:59   So I'm already ruined by True Tone.

01:10:02   That's probably gonna be the single hardest thing

01:10:04   about going back to my machine from this,

01:10:06   and probably the single thing that might tempt me to update.

01:10:09   - Yeah, I mean, why go back?

01:10:11   Because now you know Migration Assistant works.

01:10:12   You're gonna be buying every laptop. I know I know I know I might get on like an iPhone like year over year system

01:10:18   You know with the iPhone I'm still running my iPhone right here in front of me has been updated

01:10:24   Ever since the original iPhone 10 years ago, or I guess 11 years ago at this point, right?

01:10:30   2007 so like starting with my original iPhone in 2007

01:10:34   I've bought a new iPhone for myself every year and every time I have updated from what it was

01:10:42   which is kind of amazing in terms of old school experience.

01:10:47   Even on the Mac side, it just didn't seem like

01:10:49   that was a good idea to just keep buying new things

01:10:51   and keeping a system going from 11 years ago.

01:10:56   - Yeah, although I think I kept my first installation

01:10:58   going for like seven or eight years, it was something crazy.

01:11:01   But, and with iPhones it makes more sense

01:11:03   because with iPhones, you get a lot more

01:11:04   year over year change.

01:11:06   And even though that's in some ways,

01:11:08   and like some years that kind of is a little bit slower

01:11:10   than others in recent times,

01:11:11   it's still way more year over year change

01:11:13   than you get on the Mac side.

01:11:14   You know, like these, like if you have a,

01:11:17   like you know, 2016 MacBook Pro,

01:11:20   you know, then the 2018s, it's two more years on the iPhone,

01:11:24   that would be a really big, nice jump.

01:11:26   On the Mac, the 2018s are gonna be, you know,

01:11:29   50% better at most on certain tasks,

01:11:32   and in some ways, on most tasks,

01:11:35   not nearly that much better,

01:11:36   like it'll be a little bit better, a little bit nicer,

01:11:38   but you know, largely the same experience.

01:11:40   So single thing I like most is the display because it has true tone

01:11:46   The single thing I like least is the keyboard because I just it just feels weird

01:11:52   I can't get used I can I don't hate it

01:11:55   And I remember from when I tested when the when these MacBook pros first came out in 2016 November 2016

01:12:02   I I got Apple it sent me like three of them. I said I got like the escape

01:12:07   I got a 13 inch with touch bar and then a 15 inch with touch bar

01:12:11   which

01:12:14   was

01:12:15   Discombobulating to my simple mind. How do I how do I test three laptops when they were staggered?

01:12:20   Like everyone got right escape first to review the touch bar ones weren't ready even for reviewers

01:12:24   Yeah, and then the tuckler came out like a couple of weeks later, right?

01:12:27   Are you and but because there were three of them I spent longer than usual using it, you know

01:12:33   And and I remember then I was like this is unfamiliar

01:12:37   I don't like the keyboard feel wise and I kind of got used to it and I think I'm sure I would get used to this

01:12:43   I'm sure I would but I one week in

01:12:46   My fingers still feel like they're in a foreign country or something. It's it's it, you know

01:12:52   Like I'm driving on the wrong side of the road. It doesn't feel right but

01:12:55   There are other people here who have similar keyboards and I in terms of the volume, you know that this issue with hey

01:13:04   This one's quieter because of the silicone membrane that they've added. There is no doubt in my mind that it's quieter

01:13:09   It's quieter from my memory of using the keyboards in late 2016

01:13:14   I mean, I know Joanna Stern and I did a podcast at some point where she she she really hated the noise that those keyboards made

01:13:22   I can't wait to talk to her was really bad

01:13:24   It was it was like it was like tapping on an upside-down bucket

01:13:27   Yeah, it was so just like cheap and crappy sounding and the other keep in mind. They did change it in the 2017 also

01:13:34   Yeah, I didn't say anything but the 2017 were a little bit quieter

01:13:37   I didn't get one of those to test but I had I did do the typical

01:13:42   Apple podcaster thing which is wander into an Apple store and

01:13:46   Just start typing on one

01:13:48   Yeah

01:13:49   we're very good at that right and it's weird because I go in and I realize I look like a crazy person because I'm

01:13:53   Not looking at the display. I'm like, you know like just so that I can concentrate on what it sounds and feels like

01:13:59   I'm just sort of staring into space and I'm staring straight ahead

01:14:03   Yeah, you know because it's like I'm just you know, looking at one of the white spaces in the Apple Store, you know

01:14:09   Into the Johnny into the Johnny I've void where my visual field isn't really I'm just it's all about the feel and the listening

01:14:17   But it was said that was a subtle change. Whereas this is clearly a new keyboard and I think it's better

01:14:24   I definitely do I think it's quieter and I think it even feels better. So

01:14:29   I

01:14:31   You know one of my questions was with this silicone thing everybody of course you know

01:14:35   There's this whole thing about the egress. You know it that that little pieces of dust would get into your keyboard

01:14:42   You know this is one of the biggest Apple scandals of the last year

01:14:45   a little bit of dust gets in your keyboard and all of a sudden one of the keys get stuck and

01:14:49   Apple you know it's to me embarrassing

01:14:52   I mean everybody knows this is embarrassing that Apple even has commissioned

01:14:56   You know a nice Apple style professional illustrators

01:15:00   to draw a diagram of the exact 43 degree angle you should hold the MacBook with while you

01:15:09   spray it with a can of compressed air. Right? Like the fact that this wasn't just like a

01:15:16   word of mouth thing, like you go in the Apple store and they tell you know, like zapping

01:15:20   PRAM or something like that all these, you know, little bits of tech tech support advice

01:15:25   that float around and say, Oh, yeah, just try a can of air or whatever, like Apple had

01:15:28   to actually make it a major illustrated support document. The fear that common sense would say,

01:15:36   "Well, what if they added this silicone layer specifically to combat this egress thing

01:15:43   that was getting these keys stuck and was turning into a support and publicity nightmare for the

01:15:49   the company. Surely, they've spent way more money than they wanted to on repairing these

01:15:58   keyboards. And publicity-wise, it's probably even more of an expense. It's one of the

01:16:04   worst cases of bad publicity that they've had in recent years. Well, what if they added

01:16:07   the silicone layer to keep out the dust and keep the keyboard working, but what if it

01:16:13   makes the keyboard worse?

01:16:14   - Right, I mean, that was a, you know,

01:16:17   and I still haven't spent meaningful time

01:16:18   with One Yacht 'cause mine's on here yet,

01:16:20   but like, it's, the keyboard is already just like,

01:16:24   barely good enough feeling for most people.

01:16:28   Most people either like it or don't care,

01:16:32   but it's dealing with such tiny tolerances of like,

01:16:35   these keys barely move, it barely feels like

01:16:38   you're pushing something down.

01:16:40   Like, if they reduce that, there's not a lot of room

01:16:42   to reduce that, and so certainly a big risk of this

01:16:46   is that it makes it feel worse at the expense

01:16:49   of making it more durable.

01:16:50   So you're saying you don't think it feels worse?

01:16:52   - No, I think it feels better.

01:16:55   I think it feels better than the ones without the membrane.

01:16:58   So there's three generations.

01:16:59   There's the first generation.

01:17:01   I think that that includes the MacBook One,

01:17:05   or maybe they're only talking about MacBook Pro.

01:17:06   - The MacBook One, well, so the 2015 MacBook One

01:17:10   had a version of this keyboard that basically,

01:17:12   Like they all have the exact same travel.

01:17:15   But the very first one had like no kickback on the keys.

01:17:19   And so it felt even worse than these.

01:17:20   - Yeah, it felt like dead.

01:17:22   - Yeah, the 2016, when they put the MacBook Pro generation

01:17:26   with this keyboard, it added this big, strong

01:17:29   kickback feeling which also made that horrible noise.

01:17:32   But it did make it feel less crappy.

01:17:35   - Well, what I'm questioning is Apple describes

01:17:38   this keyboard, this one with the silicone layer,

01:17:40   as third generation.

01:17:42   but are they only counting MacBook Pro keyboards,

01:17:45   as in 2016 was first generation?

01:17:48   - No, no, no, when they introduced 2016s,

01:17:50   they called this the second generation butterfly keyboard.

01:17:52   - Okay. - 'Cause the first generation

01:17:53   one, by their naming, was the one in the 2015 MacBook.

01:17:56   - All right. - Then the second generation

01:17:58   is technically 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pros,

01:18:01   even though they're different,

01:18:02   and then the third generation is the 2018 one.

01:18:04   - Right, so to go to software numbering lingo,

01:18:07   it would be like the 1.0 was the 2015 MacBook One,

01:18:12   2.0 is 2016 MacBook Pros 2.1 was the 2017 MacBook Pros and this is 3.0

01:18:19   Yeah, yeah, I like this one better. I just no question in my mind one weekend. I like it better and

01:18:24   the things that I don't like are are

01:18:29   Endemic to it. I don't like the less travel

01:18:34   But that might just be that I'm not used to it yet

01:18:38   I'm willing to concede that if given enough time with it as my main machine

01:18:41   I might grow to appreciate it because I you know

01:18:44   I remember thinking the same thing every single time Apple makes their machines thinner every single time

01:18:49   They radically changed their laptop keyboards

01:18:52   I don't like it because there's always less travel because they're always making them thinner and so they have to reduce the travel because

01:18:58   You you have to reduce the travel on the keyboard to make the machine thicker. It's just simple

01:19:03   three three-dimensional spatial reality

01:19:08   You know in terms of feel I still like the way like, you know, like a 15 year old power book feels

01:19:14   Because it's you know, got some click

01:19:17   So I pretty you know, but I'm realistic. I don't expect a Apple extended keyboard to

01:19:23   Mechanical keyboard on a laptop. I realize it's physically impossible. So I realize there's less trouble and every time you would totally buy it

01:19:29   If it was oh, yeah

01:19:31   So the travel, you know the travel is the travel there's nothing they can do about it I

01:19:37   - I find, well. - Okay.

01:19:39   I'll let that go for this.

01:19:42   - Right, well, there's nothing they could do

01:19:43   other than to make the machines thicker, in theory.

01:19:46   Although-- - Well, maybe not.

01:19:48   Honestly, maybe not.

01:19:49   Maybe they could just,

01:19:51   'cause there are a lot of PC laptops

01:19:53   that have a similar overall thinness and profile

01:19:57   where the Keytrap,

01:19:58   where it has more traditional style keyboard.

01:20:01   - Yeah, I guess I shouldn't say that.

01:20:02   And I also know that there are people who prefer this.

01:20:07   - A good amount of them, actually.

01:20:08   - Right, a good amount of people genuinely prefer it.

01:20:10   The thing that I find hard to get used to,

01:20:12   and I remember this from 2016 too,

01:20:14   is that the key caps are physically bigger.

01:20:17   So the keys are bigger, and there's less space between keys.

01:20:22   The keyboard itself isn't bigger.

01:20:24   They've just reduced space between keys

01:20:26   and used that extra space to make the keys bigger.

01:20:29   And for some reason, even though it shouldn't,

01:20:32   because the center of every key

01:20:34   is still in the same position,

01:20:36   it feels to me like I have to spread my fingers wider.

01:20:40   And my hands feel weird right now

01:20:43   because before we started recording the show,

01:20:45   I was writing a bunch of emails

01:20:47   and posting a few things to Daring Fireball,

01:20:49   so I was typing.

01:20:50   And my fingers feel like I've spread them out,

01:20:53   like webbed out my fingers.

01:20:55   They just feel a little sore like that.

01:20:57   And that doesn't make any sense

01:20:58   because the center of every key

01:21:00   is still the same distance apart.

01:21:01   And I think it's something

01:21:03   that I would clearly get used to.

01:21:05   If I used this for a month and then went back

01:21:07   to my 2014 MacBook Pro, I would think,

01:21:10   oh my god, why are these keys so close to each other?

01:21:13   - So I've gone back and forth with this generation

01:21:15   of laptops.

01:21:16   (laughing)

01:21:19   - That's a euphemistic way of describing your history.

01:21:21   - Understatement maybe.

01:21:23   But so when I've spent meaningful time with them,

01:21:25   I have gotten used to the travel.

01:21:26   I've never liked it, but I've gotten used to it.

01:21:30   What gets me is the arrow key layout,

01:21:33   not having the gaps above the left and right arrow keys.

01:21:36   And 'cause like, so a combination of that

01:21:39   and what you just described of like the margin

01:21:41   between the keys being thinner basically,

01:21:43   that it makes it for me, for my hands,

01:21:45   it makes it harder for me to orient myself by feel

01:21:49   on the keyboard.

01:21:50   It has, it feels closer to just a flat piece of glass.

01:21:55   - The arrow key thing I'll never get used to.

01:21:57   And it seems like this is, was not a temporary blip

01:22:02   on Apple's design tastes, like they're all in

01:22:06   on full-size left and right arrow keys

01:22:08   and half-size up-down keys, but not having

01:22:12   that upside-down T shape to orient by feel,

01:22:15   I don't know that I'll ever get used to it.

01:22:16   - Yeah, I make tons of mistakes on that.

01:22:19   - I am literally thinking, and I swear to God,

01:22:21   I am thinking, even if this were my machine that I owned,

01:22:25   I might do it, but I'm seriously thinking

01:22:27   about making half-height strips of gaff tape

01:22:32   and putting them on the bottom of the left and right keys.

01:22:35   I really am.

01:22:36   - That's not a bad idea.

01:22:38   - That's, gaff tape was--

01:22:39   - It's just not a review unit.

01:22:40   - Gaff tape is how I solved my problem

01:22:42   with the orientation of the Apple TV remote,

01:22:46   is I just put a belt of gaff tape

01:22:49   around the bottom part of the Apple TV remote,

01:22:54   and then I could run my fingers along the side,

01:22:57   and when I feel the tape, I know which way it goes

01:22:59   in the dark or without looking at it.

01:23:01   And I kind of feel, you know, gaff tape,

01:23:04   Marlon Mann introduced me to gaff tape.

01:23:05   Gaff tape is one of the most amazing,

01:23:07   anybody out there who doesn't have a roll of gaff tape

01:23:10   in the house, go out, just go to Amazon

01:23:12   and buy one right now, you'll thank me later.

01:23:14   It is the most, it's the most amazing tape in the world.

01:23:17   The name comes, I believe, from the movie industry.

01:23:21   Gaffers are, I think, the people who like adjust the lights

01:23:24   and stuff like that, like the lighting stands.

01:23:27   And so they use this black tape.

01:23:29   Once they get the light in the right position,

01:23:31   they'll tape it down on the set so that it can't move.

01:23:34   But gaff tape, unlike something like duct tape

01:23:38   that's supposed to be permanent,

01:23:39   when you peel, gaff tape is very strong and it holds.

01:23:43   - It's cloth-like and field. - And it is cloth-like.

01:23:45   And so you can rip it perfectly straight.

01:23:47   - You can rip it by hand, you don't need scissors.

01:23:48   - Right, you don't need scissors.

01:23:49   You rip it straight.

01:23:52   It's easy to rip and it holds as much as you want,

01:23:56   but then when you unpeel it,

01:23:57   there's almost no residue or no residue.

01:24:00   - So my concern on putting it under the arrow keys

01:24:04   is that you might get some on the screen.

01:24:05   - Right, exactly, I would have, but it would be,

01:24:08   well, it would kind of be in the middle of the screen.

01:24:10   So there'd be, that's exactly my thought,

01:24:12   'cause it would absorb finger oil

01:24:14   and then there'd be two little oily spots on the screen.

01:24:17   But I clean my screen regularly

01:24:19   because I'm very sensitive to,

01:24:22   I'm actually appalled at how many tiny little smudges

01:24:25   I've gotten on this machine in the last week.

01:24:28   - Maybe one of those people who has those

01:24:29   like microfiber cloths that you put over the keyboard

01:24:31   when you close the laptop?

01:24:32   - I used to use one of those.

01:24:33   I forget when I stopped, but it used to be,

01:24:36   I forget what generation of,

01:24:40   it was probably in the PowerBook era,

01:24:41   but up until a certain point in the PowerBook era,

01:24:44   it was inevitable that you would get keyboard-shaped marks

01:24:48   on the display.

01:24:50   - Well, no, see that was--

01:24:51   - Just by closing the display.

01:24:52   - It wasn't inevitable because,

01:24:54   I just talked to this on ETP last night.

01:24:57   So if you put it in a bag where there was something

01:25:02   on top of it where you'd carry it

01:25:03   so that it would compress it slightly,

01:25:05   if there was any pressure applied to that top screen lid,

01:25:08   it would contact the keyboard.

01:25:10   But if there was no pressure squeezing it closed more,

01:25:15   it wouldn't touch, 'cause I had a G4 aluminum power book,

01:25:18   and I heard about this and so I basically constantly

01:25:20   arranged my bags such that it would never get pressed on

01:25:24   and I never had those marks.

01:25:25   And everyone else I knew had them and mine was perfect.

01:25:27   - I didn't know about that, but back in that era,

01:25:29   I didn't worry about it 'cause I just used

01:25:31   the microfiber cloth that covered the keyboard

01:25:33   every time I shut the device.

01:25:36   I guess I kinda knew that 'cause I guess I only used that

01:25:38   when I put it in a bag.

01:25:40   I guess in two, I had never really thought about it

01:25:42   consciously, but if I was only closing it to keep it

01:25:44   on a desk, just closing it for privacy reasons

01:25:46   or just to shut it down, I wouldn't do it every time.

01:25:50   I would only use that go-between-the-keyboard-in-the-screen

01:25:54   rag, 'cause that's basic.

01:25:56   We get fancy at all microfiber cloths.

01:25:59   It was a rag.

01:25:59   - Yeah, it's a really thin rag.

01:26:01   - It was a nice rag, a very nice rag.

01:26:03   - Probably a very expensive little nice rag.

01:26:05   - Right.

01:26:06   - No, I always want to be one of those people.

01:26:07   I never actually have the dedication to the idea

01:26:10   to actually do it, but I always kinda envy

01:26:13   how good people's computers end up looking

01:26:15   when they are those people.

01:26:17   But so I'm curious, so the AirKey thing aside,

01:26:22   as the keyboard picky individual that you are,

01:26:25   would you ever, like, would you be okay

01:26:28   with this keyboard long-term?

01:26:29   Like, you know, basically where we are now in the lineup,

01:26:32   it looks like this is, we're kind of,

01:26:33   you're kind of stuck with this forever now, so.

01:26:35   - Yeah, I could live with it.

01:26:36   And there are parts that I like,

01:26:37   I genuinely admire and appreciate at a mechanical level

01:26:41   and the way it feels, the way that with these

01:26:43   butterfly switches, no matter where on the key you press,

01:26:47   the entire key moves down completely flat, right?

01:26:51   That's new, and no other laptop keyboard

01:26:56   I've ever seen does that, and when I do use this

01:26:59   for a while and go back to my previous generation keyboard,

01:27:03   I still am not used enough to this

01:27:05   that I don't appreciate the other one overall,

01:27:08   but I'm blown away at how wiggly the previous

01:27:11   generation keyboard feels.

01:27:12   It's like I cannot believe how these keys wiggle

01:27:14   on an Apple laptop.

01:27:15   - See, I can see that and I can feel that,

01:27:18   but to me I just don't care at all.

01:27:19   Like it's like they solved a problem

01:27:20   that I would never have cared about.

01:27:22   But I'm also here, it's like the arrow key thing to me,

01:27:25   like it's, you know, the shape of those arrow keys

01:27:27   not being full height, like it's unnecessary

01:27:30   as far as I can tell.

01:27:30   Like I don't think there's any structural reason

01:27:32   why they can't have more metal there

01:27:33   to make that just the T-shape.

01:27:35   It seems like it's purely an aesthetic choice.

01:27:37   And honestly, that would make me like 50% happier

01:27:42   with this keyboard if they just return the inverted T shape

01:27:45   to the arrow keys.

01:27:46   - Absolutely, if there's one thing I could change

01:27:47   on the keyboard, it would be the upside down T.

01:27:51   Even the touch bar, I don't really mind the touch bar

01:27:53   as much as, I don't really like it, I can't say I use it

01:27:55   a lot, but I've never owned one on my personal machine

01:27:58   and really gotten into a workflow with it.

01:28:00   But I don't use function keys much either.

01:28:03   - Once I remapped escape to caps lock on all my keyboards

01:28:06   everywhere, which took about a week to get used to,

01:28:08   the touch bar stopped bothering me.

01:28:09   I still don't want it, but I'm gonna have it now

01:28:13   and I know that it'll be fine.

01:28:15   - Yeah, I don't know, I guess I could think about that.

01:28:19   - It's really, it's not that bad.

01:28:21   - How did you ever do that?

01:28:21   Did you do that in a system preferences?

01:28:23   - Yeah, it's in the modifier keys window,

01:28:25   so you would never know 'cause you use Apple keyboards.

01:28:27   But if you ever wanna use a PC keyboard on a Mac,

01:28:29   you have to usually swap command and option on one of them

01:28:32   'cause like, use the Windows key.

01:28:34   - When I plug my extended keyboard too into a new machine,

01:28:37   I don't have to switch anything,

01:28:39   but I have to identify it in the way that they're like,

01:28:42   I don't know what this is.

01:28:43   Type the key next to the left shift key and Z.

01:28:46   And they're like, oh, okay, I got it.

01:28:47   I see where I am.

01:28:48   - Now this is different.

01:28:49   Like PC keyboard, basically they use the Windows key

01:28:52   to be what command is on the key code map.

01:28:54   So you gotta switch those.

01:28:55   But in that same window in system preferences,

01:28:57   keyboard modifier keys, you can set caps lock to be escape.

01:29:01   - See, what I would be tempted to wanna do,

01:29:03   and I'll bet it doesn't support it,

01:29:04   as I would be tempted to turn the back tick key to escape

01:29:09   and turn caps lock into the back tick tilde key.

01:29:13   'Cause I almost never type back lock or tilde,

01:29:16   but my instinct to go top left for escape

01:29:20   is impossible to override.

01:29:21   I think it would take me forever

01:29:23   to get used to caps lock as escape.

01:29:25   But turning-- - Honestly, try it.

01:29:26   It's super fast, 'cause one thing that's great about it

01:29:28   is that you can hit it with your pinky.

01:29:31   Like, you don't have to move up the home row to hit escape,

01:29:32   so it's like, if you're like, you know,

01:29:33   quickly dismissing a dialogue or something,

01:29:35   it's really nice.

01:29:35   - Right, well that's like those people who,

01:29:37   the people who are used to the old Unix convention

01:29:39   of where caps lock is, making that the control key.

01:29:42   - Yeah, exactly, same reason.

01:29:43   - And the way that all the, there's a whole slew of,

01:29:46   move the insertion point, cursor,

01:29:49   whatever you wanna call it, with control, whatever,

01:29:51   that having it just one little thing away

01:29:54   from the A key for your pinky is super convenient.

01:29:56   - Yeah.

01:29:57   - Yeah, I can't believe I'm thinking about

01:30:01   solving a problem on a,

01:30:03   This is literally like what like a $5,000 laptop.

01:30:06   'Cause it does--

01:30:07   - I mean look, if you're gonna try the tape trick,

01:30:08   try it on Apple's laptop, not yours.

01:30:10   - The machine that they sent me is the Core i9

01:30:12   with the fastest processor, 32 gigs of RAM,

01:30:16   and the only thing that's not tippity top, tip top shape

01:30:19   is they gave me a measly two gigabyte.

01:30:22   - Two terabyte. - Two terabyte SSD,

01:30:24   not the four terabyte SSD.

01:30:26   - Only the $2,000 one instead of the $4,000 one.

01:30:30   - Right, that's the only thing missing from this.

01:30:33   Here's my rationale for this.

01:30:34   Number one, Apple won't care.

01:30:36   Number two, I'm guessing when they get a review unit back,

01:30:40   they probably treat it the same way as they should return,

01:30:42   which means it's sent for refurbishment.

01:30:44   - No. - No?

01:30:45   - No, well, I don't know this.

01:30:48   I can't verify it 'cause I haven't seen it,

01:30:50   but I believe for, I don't know if it's tax purposes,

01:30:55   I don't know if it's accounting purposes, some kind,

01:30:57   I don't know if it's really legal, if it's just policy,

01:30:59   but I've been told that when they get a review back,

01:31:03   I don't know, do they trash it?

01:31:05   I just, I've been told that they wipe it

01:31:07   and then treat it like a prototype.

01:31:11   I don't know.

01:31:12   - That's interesting, because normally,

01:31:14   if you return one to a store,

01:31:16   they don't go resell that to somebody else.

01:31:18   As far as I know, they send it in for refurbishing,

01:31:20   and refurbishing, they usually, I think they have to

01:31:24   replace any component that people touch

01:31:26   on the outside of it.

01:31:27   So I think, this is right into John if I'm wrong,

01:31:31   I think they actually replace all the casing

01:31:34   and keyboard and everything,

01:31:35   and I think the only parts they refurbish

01:31:36   are like the internals, right?

01:31:37   And so if that's true, you can put as much tape

01:31:40   on this keyboard as you want.

01:31:41   - I guess now that I think about it,

01:31:43   I don't, I shouldn't say that they don't refurbish.

01:31:45   All I know is they do promise that the first thing they do

01:31:48   when a review unit gets sent back is wipe it clean.

01:31:52   You know, and they say this in a way like,

01:31:54   you don't even have to worry about wiping it.

01:31:55   Trust us, we'll wipe it.

01:31:56   I still wipe 'em before I send it back, but.

01:31:59   - Yeah, 'cause that would also, you know,

01:32:00   So if it is refurbishment, that's gotta be a part

01:32:02   of the same process, right?

01:32:03   - Yeah, yeah.

01:32:03   But I still can't believe that on a 5,000,

01:32:06   I think this is a $5,000 config.

01:32:08   - Something like that, yeah.

01:32:10   - That I'm thinking about solving a problem with gaff tape.

01:32:13   But it really does drive me nuts.

01:32:15   And 'cause I just, and I don't look.

01:32:17   I mean, who looks?

01:32:18   You just go, like part of the reason the arrow keys

01:32:20   are down there in the bottom right is it's like this super,

01:32:23   it's like a Fitz's Law thing, you know?

01:32:26   - Yeah.

01:32:27   - By putting it in the corner, you just,

01:32:29   It's so easy to get your fingers there,

01:32:30   and all of a sudden I'm like, what key is this?

01:32:32   Even the new gap between the up and down keys

01:32:36   is harder to feel the difference between.

01:32:39   - Because it's shallower.

01:32:39   And even for me, where the keyboard ends

01:32:43   and the rest of the case begins,

01:32:44   the corners and the edges around the keyboard,

01:32:47   where it's kind of sunken in slightly

01:32:49   to accommodate the keyboard depth,

01:32:51   because the keyboard depth has changed,

01:32:53   that little sunken in area around the keyboard

01:32:56   is now shallower.

01:32:57   And so even that is harder to feel,

01:32:59   like at the corner of the keyboard.

01:33:01   So when you're reaching for that right arrow key,

01:33:03   you used to be able to kind of just move your hand

01:33:05   until you could feel that edge of the keyboard.

01:33:07   - But it's not just shallower between the up and down.

01:33:10   There's no longer a strip of aluminum between them either.

01:33:12   - There hasn't been for a while.

01:33:13   - Oh, I thought there was.

01:33:14   - No, but they kind of bend down.

01:33:16   They form like two little valleys

01:33:17   between the up and down. - All right.

01:33:18   Well, then it's just the shallower.

01:33:19   - It's a shallower, yeah.

01:33:20   - Even that is harder to feel, and it drives me nuts.

01:33:22   And I'm never going to enjoy that.

01:33:24   And I really, really wish they would go back

01:33:27   to the upside down T and just accept

01:33:29   the aesthetic unpleasantness of the half key height

01:33:33   pieces of aluminum that are just naked

01:33:35   above the up and down keys.

01:33:37   - Yeah, if I was able to fix either,

01:33:40   like if they would give me my magic wish

01:33:41   and give me either more travel or inverted T arrows,

01:33:46   I would pick inverted T arrows.

01:33:47   - All right, what about inverted T arrows

01:33:49   or a row of function keys instead of the touch bar?

01:33:53   - Same decision, inverted key arrows.

01:33:55   - Yeah, same here.

01:33:56   Touch ID is nice to have, but I've been wearing my Apple Watch all week, so I don't even need it.

01:34:05   And I can't help but feel, and I suspected it would feel the same way, after an entire,

01:34:12   almost an entire year now, 10 months with an iPhone X in my pocket, I still feel like Touch ID on the

01:34:19   MacBook Pro feels like I'm using ancient technology. Like, why can't this camera just look at me?

01:34:25   You know, there's there's a very nice. There's doesn't even need a notch. There's a whole strip up here. They put whatever they want up there

01:34:32   Why in the world doesn't this have face ID?

01:34:35   Yeah

01:34:35   The MacBook Pro still has substantial screen bezels like if you look at like the that that Huawei mate book X that they met

01:34:42   The MacBook ripoff right I when I saw one in a Microsoft store

01:34:45   I was actually very it kind of struck me like how cool it looked how futuristic it looked

01:34:50   Because and that's the one like you saw like everyone saw on the verge a few months ago

01:34:54   that's someone that has the webcam is in a pop-up function key really like hit

01:34:59   like the middle key in the function row and it's actually like pop-up webcam

01:35:02   that pops up so like it's it's it's it's ridiculous on a number of fronts like

01:35:06   that but they did succeed in getting an edge to edge yes but the display you

01:35:11   know they basically crammed like a roughly 14 inch display into a 13 inch

01:35:14   body and it looks incredible and it's like otherwise it's the same dimensions

01:35:18   is roughly in same weight roughly as the 13 inch MacBook Pro and it really does

01:35:23   look great and I would love them to reduce the bezels at all in any way in the MacBook

01:35:27   line because what you want, same thing with the phone, you want the biggest screen and

01:35:31   the smallest laptop, right? And so any progress towards that would be great for the future.

01:35:35   Well, and that brings me to one of the things that I genuinely dislike about this machine.

01:35:40   And I've disliked it ever since they came out in 2016, which is that it now again, says

01:35:46   MacBook Pro on the bezel. Yeah, when they and I was just talking, I had a Twitter discussion

01:35:52   with some people today and some of them are like,

01:35:54   I've never had one without that.

01:35:56   And that's because you skipped

01:35:57   the initial Retina MacBook Pros.

01:36:02   So the-- - 2012s.

01:36:03   - Yeah, the 2012s when the Retina MacBook Pros

01:36:06   went to Retina, they no longer printed MacBook Pro

01:36:10   on the bezel, it was just black, just black,

01:36:12   more like an iPhone, like in a way that

01:36:15   every other competitor, and it's always been baffling to me

01:36:19   that Samsung would rip off, especially in like

01:36:22   the iPhone 3G, 3GS era when the whole patent lawsuit came about and they had the phone

01:36:28   that was held up in court and a Samsung marketing person couldn't tell whether it was an iPhone

01:36:33   3G or a Samsung phone. They tried to make their phones look so much like an iPhone,

01:36:37   it was absolutely embarrassing for somebody who's not claiming to make counterfeit products.

01:36:44   But they always insisted on printing their ugly-ass Samsung logo on the forehead or the

01:36:50   chin. I don't know where they printed it, but somewhere on the front of the phone, they'd put

01:36:53   a big old Samsung logo, and Apple never printed anything. And of course, never allowed the carriers

01:37:00   to print anything on the actual face of the phone. I like that on my personal MacBook Pro so much,

01:37:07   and I find this so distracting. And it's not like shiny, it's not white, it's gray, but my eyes just

01:37:14   keep looking at it, and I just keep thinking, "Why? Why would you know?" Once you've got away

01:37:18   from it and you just had that nice perfect black border, why would you do that? Like,

01:37:21   it's just like with TVs, like, when you see a big screen TV and the way that bezels have shrunk on

01:37:29   TVs, it's similar to the phones now where they couldn't, you know, even Samsung has stopped

01:37:33   printing their name because they can't because they've got doesn't fit. It doesn't fit. Right.

01:37:37   And TVs have gotten to that point. But having a distractive manufacturer name on the bezel of a TV

01:37:43   is incredibly distracting. And you know, Apple wouldn't do it. I don't know why they went back

01:37:46   to this on the MacBook Pro, but my theory is that it coincides with the fact that the top,

01:37:53   the display is so thin now that they can't backlight the Apple logo.

01:37:56   So it's--

01:37:57   - Yeah, which, honestly, I kind of miss that still, but when I see now, when I see a mixed

01:38:03   company laptop party going on, you see some that have the glowy one and some that don't.

01:38:07   I do admit the glowy one does look old now, just 'cause that's what the old models have,

01:38:11   but I do kind of miss that.

01:38:13   - I miss it too, but I asked about it

01:38:16   and it really wasn't like a,

01:38:19   it was something that people from Apple seldom admit

01:38:25   to anything like this, but they even said

01:38:27   it wasn't really that we didn't want it

01:38:29   or preferred not having it, it's just too thin,

01:38:32   that we couldn't make the top that thin and backlight it.

01:38:35   - Yeah.

01:38:36   - You know, you need a light here for this and this.

01:38:38   - Well, and like the extreme thinness of these,

01:38:42   you know, the display lids on laptops now,

01:38:45   I think that might cause problems

01:38:47   for ever having Face ID in these things.

01:38:48   - Yeah, that is possible. - You mentioned Touch ID

01:38:49   earlier, and I kind of have a mixed opinion

01:38:53   on Touch ID versus Face ID.

01:38:55   Like, whenever I use Touch ID for something,

01:38:57   now that I'm also accustomed to Face ID,

01:38:59   like whenever I use Touch ID, I both think,

01:39:02   oh, how quaint it's the past, and also,

01:39:04   oh, that was fast and easy.

01:39:05   (laughing)

01:39:06   So I'm slightly torn on, 'cause like,

01:39:09   I do, Face ID's mostly fine,

01:39:11   but I do like with Touch ID not only how fast it is,

01:39:14   but how the permission granting step

01:39:19   is the same step as the authentication.

01:39:22   With Face ID, it authenticates you,

01:39:24   and then you have to confirm somehow,

01:39:25   well, you know, double tap the side button

01:39:27   or whatever else.

01:39:27   With Touch ID, that's one thing.

01:39:29   You put your finger on it,

01:39:30   and that is both authenticating you

01:39:31   and saying, I approve this transaction.

01:39:33   - Have you used an iPhone with Touch ID recently?

01:39:35   Did you install beta on it?

01:39:37   - Yeah, it's fine.

01:39:38   - I couldn't stand it. - It does feel old

01:39:40   in the iPhone sense, but in the sense of

01:39:42   authorizing purchases, it still feels nicer

01:39:46   to me than Face ID.

01:39:48   - The last few years, I have, every summer,

01:39:50   I've done the same thing, which I've taken my,

01:39:53   before I installed the iOS beta on my main phone,

01:39:59   which I'm probably on the cusp of doing,

01:40:01   because I feel like the betas have been really stable

01:40:03   this year. - Oh yeah, it's fine.

01:40:05   - But in the early betas, I would install them

01:40:07   on a year old iPhone and put my SIM card in that

01:40:11   and use that as my daily phone to see how the thing is.

01:40:14   I tried that this year and the lack of Face ID

01:40:17   drove me nuts and just, I've gotten so addicted to things

01:40:20   like being able to look without unlocking it,

01:40:22   just look and have my notifications go from

01:40:26   not showing the text of the notifications to,

01:40:28   okay, we see it's you, here's the text of the notifications

01:40:31   and I can just read them.

01:40:32   Like that feature alone, I can't live without.

01:40:35   - No, I don't need that, I don't need that.

01:40:35   I don't even know, 'cause like, my stuff is not that secure.

01:40:37   Like, I don't need--

01:40:38   - Oh, so you have the full text just right there

01:40:40   when you wake it up?

01:40:41   - I turned off attention detection also,

01:40:42   'cause it made face ID more reliable and faster.

01:40:44   Because again, it's like, I don't, it's never,

01:40:47   the first time somebody like holds my phone up

01:40:48   to my like sleeping face and it authorizes,

01:40:50   then I'll turn it off.

01:40:51   - I should think about that, 'cause I still--

01:40:53   - It's never happened.

01:40:53   - I still have the problem where my favorite sunglasses

01:40:55   don't work with that.

01:40:57   I should think about that.

01:40:58   Maybe I'll turn off.

01:40:59   - Yeah, I don't know if it'll fix that or not,

01:41:00   but it certainly-- - I think it might.

01:41:01   - It certainly makes it more forgiving.

01:41:02   - Yeah, I think it would, 'cause I think the only thing

01:41:05   the sunglasses block is the ability

01:41:06   to see what you're looking at.

01:41:07   I think that they get enough other data points

01:41:10   from your nose and your cheeks and chin and et cetera.

01:41:13   - What I miss, whenever I have to use Tiz's phone

01:41:15   or something, 'cause she has an eight plus

01:41:17   and I have the 10, and whenever I have to use her phone,

01:41:19   what throws me off the most is not touch ID,

01:41:23   but tapping the screen doesn't wake it up.

01:41:26   - Right, right, oh, that drives me nuts.

01:41:28   I can't use it, yeah.

01:41:29   So I'm addicted to the 10, but I want face ID in this,

01:41:32   but I think you're right that the thinness

01:41:33   might be a problem.

01:41:34   It might take longer than I fear for them

01:41:37   to get the sensor array to be thin enough to fit there.

01:41:39   - Well, and ultimately, they might never put Face ID

01:41:41   in the MacBook. - Maybe.

01:41:42   - Like Touch ID is fine for the context

01:41:46   of unlocking a MacBook.

01:41:46   In fact, in some ways, it's actually better.

01:41:49   And it's also, you know, it's possible

01:41:51   that they could put the Face ID camera and sensor

01:41:54   in the Touch bar.

01:41:55   It doesn't have to be in the screen lid.

01:41:57   - Right. - You know,

01:41:58   I don't think they would.

01:41:59   I don't think they would want to spend the space,

01:42:00   and I don't think they want to have

01:42:01   a separate sensor area above the keyboard row there.

01:42:03   But it doesn't necessarily need to be in the screen lid.

01:42:07   But if it ever does go in the screen lid,

01:42:09   that would be a heck of a feat of miniaturization

01:42:11   because these things are so,

01:42:12   like the screen lids are so thin.

01:42:13   - Right. - And there's really

01:42:14   no reason to make them thicker than they need to be

01:42:16   just for a Face ID camera.

01:42:17   - Yeah, I think the original story,

01:42:19   I could be getting this wrong,

01:42:20   but I think I'm right that the original glowing apple

01:42:23   on the back of a PowerBook was sort of a,

01:42:28   hey, why don't we?

01:42:30   because the LCD technology at the time

01:42:33   generated a lot of light, and they realized that,

01:42:35   hey, if we just put a translucent Apple logo there,

01:42:39   we could just let the light from the display

01:42:40   shine through the Apple, and the Apple logo will light up.

01:42:43   I'm pretty sure that was the explanation for how it worked.

01:42:45   And the current displays don't work like that anymore.

01:42:47   I don't know at what point the technology changed,

01:42:50   but the screen only glows in one direction now.

01:42:52   And so they added, but they loved the feature so much

01:42:56   that they put a separate lighting system in

01:42:58   to keep the Apple logos lighting up,

01:42:59   And that's why--

01:43:00   - Oh, I didn't know that.

01:43:01   - Yeah, well that's why,

01:43:02   'cause if they could still get the light from the display,

01:43:04   the thickness wouldn't be a worry.

01:43:06   They would just, you know,

01:43:07   they just don't put anything in between the display

01:43:10   and the Apple logo.

01:43:11   But--

01:43:12   - That would also probably cause like a brightness drop

01:43:14   in the middle of the screen,

01:43:15   like as things get more sensitive

01:43:17   and thinner and everything.

01:43:18   Like, I could see why that would be challenging

01:43:20   to do technically.

01:43:20   - It is possible that I'll have to do follow up

01:43:23   on the next episode and somebody will tell me

01:43:24   that I'm nuts, that it was always a separate lighting thing.

01:43:27   But I seem to recall that when they first did it,

01:43:28   Like if you made your display,

01:43:30   as you dimmed your display, the Apple logo would dim,

01:43:33   and as you brightened your display,

01:43:34   the Apple logo would brighten.

01:43:36   - Yeah, I assumed it was always that way.

01:43:38   Like I assumed that it was always just leaking light

01:43:39   from the backlights, basically.

01:43:40   - No, if you look at like the modern ones,

01:43:43   the Apple doesn't change brightness with the screen.

01:43:46   - Oh man, I'll take a look after the show.

01:43:47   - I don't know.

01:43:47   What else are my personal thoughts on this?

01:43:51   The SSD, the SSD is so fast.

01:43:54   I haven't run any benchmarks,

01:43:55   'cause so many people with these reviews,

01:43:57   And the YouTube crowd does such a great job with Benchmark.

01:44:01   I mean, they, like too good of a job.

01:44:03   It's like, oh my God, just shut up

01:44:04   and tell me how fast it is.

01:44:05   So I'm not running tests. - Hey guys.

01:44:08   But make sure to like and subscribe.

01:44:09   Here's 15 minutes of preamble before I actually tell you

01:44:12   the one frame you wanna see in the video.

01:44:13   - But the new ones, and I think that it's true.

01:44:16   You might know, you memorize stuff like this better

01:44:18   than me, Marco, but I think all of the new MacBook Pros

01:44:22   have this new SSD that's super fast.

01:44:24   It's not just a 15-inch thing, the 13-inch has it too.

01:44:27   - That's correct, that comes along with the T2.

01:44:29   So the T2, among the list of things it does,

01:44:31   it's also the disk controller now.

01:44:33   But like the T1 that was in the previous generation

01:44:34   touch bars wasn't that advanced.

01:44:36   It started with the iMac Pro, and Apple is basically,

01:44:40   they've written their own controller,

01:44:41   and it's integrated into the T2,

01:44:43   and it is directly addressing the flash chips.

01:44:45   And so this gives a number of performance improvements.

01:44:49   It happens to be a really good

01:44:51   and really competitive disk controller.

01:44:52   So if you compare it to, if you would have just put

01:44:55   Samsung SSD in your computer, then there's one,

01:44:58   there's a Samsung controller on that SSD

01:45:00   that controls the flash and everything.

01:45:02   So that's kinda how this is.

01:45:04   It's Apple's controller there instead of somebody else's,

01:45:08   and it's really good.

01:45:09   And on the iMac Pro, they were using dual SSD modules,

01:45:14   in parallel, kinda like a RAID 0, but at a lower level.

01:45:17   So they were using dual modules in parallel

01:45:19   to get even better performance.

01:45:21   And on the MacBook Pro, it appears that they're hitting

01:45:24   those same numbers.

01:45:25   So I think they're using the same thing

01:45:27   where they're just like, you know,

01:45:27   they're running multiple flash modules in parallel,

01:45:31   and which is kind of always the case with SSDs,

01:45:33   but they're doing it to a larger degree, I think,

01:45:35   than is typically done.

01:45:37   And their controller's excellent.

01:45:39   And as far as, to the best of my knowledge,

01:45:40   it applies to every configuration of the new 13 and 15 inch.

01:45:44   - So, but it actually is weird.

01:45:49   So like, it's so fast that the other day

01:45:54   I needed to install a beta version of BB edits.

01:45:59   I just measured, I just weighted, it's 39 megabytes.

01:46:02   So it's, by today's standards, 39 megabytes is not much.

01:46:05   But I had a disk image, and so there's definitely a copy.

01:46:10   This isn't like an APFS thing.

01:46:12   It was like the whole thing where you open the disk image,

01:46:15   and then in the disk image, there's a little arrow saying,

01:46:17   here, point it to this, you know,

01:46:20   SimLink to your applications folder.

01:46:22   I drug it over and let go.

01:46:24   and nothing happened.

01:46:25   And I was like, oh, and I blamed it on the trackpad,

01:46:28   which I guess I should get to because the trackpad,

01:46:31   I'm not used to this no physical click trackpad.

01:46:34   - And its size.

01:46:36   - And the size and the fact that it has force touch.

01:46:39   So I've, and I've, so I've had miss clicking things in,

01:46:42   you know, earlier in the week where there's, you know,

01:46:45   things that I thought I was dragging,

01:46:46   I've dropped before I was ready and stuff.

01:46:49   So I figured I miss clicked, but it was actually there.

01:46:51   It just happened so fast that the finder didn't even

01:46:53   to have time to show the dialog box.

01:46:56   And I realize 38 megabytes isn't that big,

01:46:58   but I've never seen that before.

01:46:59   Like, I just, I got no feedback whatsoever

01:47:02   that it actually copied this application

01:47:04   to my applications folder.

01:47:06   It was so fast.

01:47:07   It is absolutely astounding.

01:47:09   - Yeah, I think like we're lucky in that

01:47:11   in the last few years, as Intel's having all these troubles

01:47:13   moving the CPUs forward, there's been not that much progress

01:47:16   in CPU performance, but computers keep getting faster

01:47:20   because there's been huge leaps in GPU and SSD performance.

01:47:25   And increasingly, the GPU is increasingly being used

01:47:28   by lots of things, and the SSD is used

01:47:29   by pretty much everything.

01:47:31   So almost every workload can be improved

01:47:33   by increasing SSD performance,

01:47:34   and Apple's been really, really good at that recently.

01:47:36   - Right, I mean, you know, and SSDs have been great

01:47:38   even since we first made it into consumer technology,

01:47:41   even when they, by today's standards, they recruit.

01:47:44   They've always been great,

01:47:45   and they're so much more reliable,

01:47:47   and they're dead quiet, et cetera.

01:47:49   But it really is like we're living in the future,

01:47:52   like 20 years ago we imagined,

01:47:54   like where you would make a RAM disk,

01:47:56   you'd make a disk image in RAM,

01:47:58   then tell Photoshop, use this,

01:48:00   or some kind of disk-intensive application,

01:48:02   here, here's a quote-unquote disk

01:48:05   that's really using up very valuable RAM,

01:48:08   but to have real fast read-write--

01:48:11   - Yeah, where everything just happens instantly,

01:48:12   and there's no waiting. - Right, like,

01:48:13   we're living with an SSD performance like this,

01:48:16   we're living in the future where literally,

01:48:18   Persistent storage is like having a RAM disk, it's crazy.

01:48:21   - Yeah, and like a lot of people,

01:48:22   you're looking at your old laptop from 2012 through 2015,

01:48:25   maybe, or even earlier, and you're thinking,

01:48:28   what do the new ones get me?

01:48:30   And the answer is, on the processor side, not much.

01:48:33   But this is the kind of thing where if you upgrade,

01:48:35   honestly, I think if your old laptop

01:48:38   still works fine for you, I don't think it's that pressing

01:48:40   of a need to upgrade, but if you upgrade,

01:48:43   what you would be getting for that is

01:48:45   some more CPU performance, but a lot more

01:48:48   SSD and GPU performance. Yeah, it's absolutely nuts

01:48:51   All right. Let me take another break here and thank another sponsor

01:48:55   That is who is being put to use this week in this house and it's our good friends at away

01:49:02   away

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01:49:07   and they make fantastic luggage out of

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01:49:16   Just trust me, it's really, really nice stuff. And again, one of my favorite things that keeps me I

01:49:23   swear, like, there's this whole industry of like, hey, we sell direct to you companies, and they

01:49:28   advertise on podcasts. And it's great, you get these great products, they've high quality,

01:49:33   and you get them at a low price because they cut out middlemen, blah, blah, blah. But the thing

01:49:37   about these companies in a way exemplifies is that you don't get overburdened by choice. Like,

01:49:42   I hate making decisions where there's 13 different

01:49:46   Lines of luggage from the same company or something like that now

01:49:51   You don't you just pick what size you want you pick what color you want and that's it. It is fantastic. It is so easy

01:49:57   And they're just absolutely great. They have a lifetime guarantee

01:50:01   They have a hundred day trial where you can just use it Paul it, you know

01:50:05   Get one now for your August vacation haul it around the world wherever you're going and if you don't like it just send it back

01:50:11   They'll, you know, it doesn't matter if it's all banged up.

01:50:14   Send it back to them, they'll give you your money back

01:50:16   so you can try it.

01:50:17   It's really, really great.

01:50:19   And so they, what I have, over 10 colors, five sizes,

01:50:23   and the sizes are self-descriptive.

01:50:25   It's not like Starbucks where you go in there

01:50:26   and the small one's called Tall, you know,

01:50:29   nonsense like that.

01:50:30   Look, they've got the carry-on, the bigger carry-on,

01:50:32   the medium and the large.

01:50:33   And then there's also the kids carry-on.

01:50:36   You know immediately, I've already told you,

01:50:39   you know exactly how big these things are.

01:50:41   I have the carry-on, not the bigger carry-on, I believe.

01:50:45   I think that's the one I have, I don't know.

01:50:46   But whatever I have--

01:50:47   - It's the one that used to be the only one.

01:50:48   - Yeah, so I think it's the carry-on.

01:50:50   It fits in every overhead, I've had it for years now.

01:50:53   It fits in every single overhead bin on every plane.

01:50:56   I've been on the wheels, still feel brand new.

01:51:00   Literally today, this week, I've got it upstairs.

01:51:04   I had to drag it through a parking lot

01:51:06   full of little grit and gravel and stuff like that.

01:51:09   indestructible wheels. They're the best wheels. Great handle. The handle moving up and down.

01:51:14   Won't name the brand, but a friend who's here with us has a piece of luggage,

01:51:17   handle of which is like the plastics peeling off and he's only had it a couple of years.

01:51:22   Mine seems like brand new. It is absolutely great stuff. They've got,

01:51:27   man, people advertise patent pending and my eyes start to roll. They have a patent pending

01:51:32   compression system helpful for overpackers? Well, I don't know about the, whether the

01:51:39   patent system should support patents for such things, but I'll tell you, they've got a really

01:51:42   nice system for keeping your stuff in there. And I've never owned a suitcase where I can

01:51:46   pack folded shirts and when I get to a place, open it up and the shirts are still perfectly

01:51:53   folded at like, like they came out of the drawer. It's a great system. It's simple.

01:51:57   It's not like I didn't, there's no, maybe there is a manual. I didn't read it. I figured

01:52:01   it out on my own. You just put your shirts on the right side. You put the thing over

01:52:05   it. There's these little buckles that straighten it up. Now, John, what if I have my dirty

01:52:09   clothes when I'm traveling? What I don't want to mix those in with my regular clothes. Is

01:52:14   there anything away can do to help me out? Yeah, they've got like a little bag, some

01:52:18   kind of special fabric, I think even that's supposed to keep odors out, but they have

01:52:22   a little like dirty laundry bag right there. Takes up no space before you get there. And

01:52:27   you get there, you just start stuffing your dirties in there keeps them away from all

01:52:31   of your clean clothes. And so if you're making a multi stop trip, or if you've overpacked

01:52:35   and you still have like three clean shirts, as you're coming home, your clean stuff that

01:52:40   you take out of the suitcase, you can just put right back in the closet because it hasn't

01:52:43   been rubbing up against your dirty Mac welding underwear. It's just great luggage lifetime

01:52:51   warranty, 100 days money back guarantee. I've got one we've got a couple of them here in

01:52:56   the house actually for this trip. Really, really great stuff. And oh, the built in cell

01:53:03   phone charger built in little I don't know how many thousand mega amp or whatever you

01:53:09   measure those things by but two USB ports. You can sit there at the airport any seat

01:53:14   in the airport don't look you no longer hunt for seats at the airport or no longer fish

01:53:19   through your bag for the pocketable battery pack. Just find a seat at the airport. Keep

01:53:24   your carry-on in front of you flip the little thing and you can plug your iPhone right in

01:53:29   right there. I use that every time I go to the airport now. I can't remember the last

01:53:33   time I haven't used it and it's such a great feature.

01:53:36   Actual capacity might be less than 10,000 mega amps.

01:53:38   Yeah, whatever. It's enough to charge a bunch of phones. And the other thing too, it's enough

01:53:43   that you don't have to like charge your suitcase every time you get somewhere when you go.

01:53:48   I charge mine like once a year and every time I get to the airport, there's still juice

01:53:52   in there for me to plug, uh, you know, to, or even two of us to plug our iPhones in for the,

01:53:57   however long we're waiting for our flight to be called. Uh, it's really fantastic. And you don't,

01:54:01   that's the big, I should mention that because when I first heard about this, I thought, well,

01:54:04   who the hell wants to have to charge your suitcase everywhere you go? Uh, it's not like that at all.

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01:54:39   sponsor i would i would tell you to go buy one because it's a great product really is

01:54:44   You know, I see them everywhere now like when you're traveling like I see more and more away suitcases rolling through airports with people

01:54:48   Yeah, like they're they're you know, they're they're spreading they're popular for for good reason. Well, they're popular enough

01:54:53   so and i'll mention this there's a new like certain airlines now have a rule that if um,

01:54:59   If your bag goes into

01:55:02   the under, you know, the the

01:55:05   Check bags. Yeah

01:55:07   It can't have a lithium ion battery in it anymore

01:55:11   So the battery that's built into away suitcases,

01:55:14   this wasn't the policy when they made it,

01:55:15   but they obviously had the foresight.

01:55:17   It's very simple to remove it.

01:55:18   You just unscrew two things,

01:55:20   and there's a little screwdriver

01:55:21   that you can just keep right there.

01:55:23   They give it to you so you don't have to happen

01:55:25   to have a Phillips head screwdriver with you.

01:55:27   So if you were planning to carry your bag on,

01:55:31   and they were like, "Oh, the overheads are full.

01:55:32   "You have to check it."

01:55:33   And they see, "Hey, that's a battery.

01:55:36   "Now you're in trouble.

01:55:37   "What's gonna happen?"

01:55:38   It'll take you like a minute,

01:55:39   and you could unscrew this thing.

01:55:41   It would take you longer to open the suitcase

01:55:43   than it would to remove it, so it is easily removable.

01:55:45   But the popularity is such that when you're going

01:55:48   through the airport, TSA people will see it,

01:55:51   and they'll be like, hey, is that a battery?

01:55:52   And I'll just say, oh, it's removable.

01:55:53   And they're like, okay.

01:55:55   But they definitely are used to seeing them.

01:55:57   There's definitely a ton of them out there.

01:55:59   So what else?

01:56:02   A track pad I wanted to talk about.

01:56:04   I'm getting used to it.

01:56:06   I do miss the clickability.

01:56:09   I feel like my physical, there's nothing beats

01:56:12   a physical click.

01:56:13   - Agreed.

01:56:14   - It is uncanny how much this trackpad

01:56:17   feels like it's clicking, even though it actually isn't.

01:56:19   It's absolutely uncanny.

01:56:22   And I do turn up, like there's light, medium, and firm,

01:56:25   I think they describe it as.

01:56:27   - Yeah, yeah.

01:56:27   - In terms of how much click do you want to feel

01:56:31   when you're getting these fake clicks.

01:56:33   What do they call it?

01:56:34   Light, medium, and firm, yep.

01:56:35   I bump it up, medium is of course the default.

01:56:38   I bump it up to firm just because I'm, you know,

01:56:42   retro, I'm an old person who wants it to feel

01:56:46   the most like the old ones.

01:56:47   - Do you think the keyboards will ever have an option

01:56:50   to emit fake keyboard sounds to sound like your keyboard?

01:56:53   - No, I don't think so.

01:56:55   'Cause they make enough sound as is.

01:56:56   - Yeah, that's true.

01:56:57   - And I don't use it for the sound.

01:56:59   The sound is a byproduct of the feel.

01:57:02   It's the feel that matters.

01:57:04   - I found my recipe for happiness

01:57:06   with the Force Touch track pads.

01:57:08   'Cause I too really miss the old ones.

01:57:11   And the new ones I don't think are as good.

01:57:15   But I have reached the point where I think

01:57:16   they're good enough that I stopped caring.

01:57:19   And my recipe for happiness is not only to put it

01:57:22   on the firm kickback mode, but also to disable 3D touch.

01:57:27   - I'm on the cusp of that.

01:57:28   I'm absolutely on the cusp of disabling 3D touch

01:57:31   because I never seem to want it.

01:57:33   And the only reason I haven't so far

01:57:35   out of a knee-jerk frustration of when it's kicked in

01:57:37   and I didn't want it, is just that I don't want

01:57:40   to disable it just because I'm not used to it.

01:57:42   I don't want to be that old man who wants to get rid

01:57:45   of all the new stuff as quickly as I can.

01:57:47   I want to give it a shot.

01:57:48   - I will be that old man because I'm telling you

01:57:49   it's so much better.

01:57:51   Because the problem with the 3D touch on the trackpad

01:57:54   is like, so on Macs the way this works,

01:57:56   for anybody who somehow doesn't know,

01:57:58   who's been living under a Mac rock,

01:57:59   is that you basically have two simulated levels

01:58:03   of pressure on the track, but to the first pressure level

01:58:06   is the regular click, and then if you kinda click harder,

01:58:08   like if you push further in on your, you know,

01:58:10   in like the virtual depth of it,

01:58:13   you get the secondary function,

01:58:14   and it's not, it doesn't do a right click,

01:58:17   it does some kind of third option

01:58:18   that is supported by not that many things,

01:58:21   and it provides some kind of shortcut,

01:58:23   and ultimately I have found, when I've had it on

01:58:25   and when I've tried using it, I have found it,

01:58:28   I never want the thing that it offers me on the second level

01:58:32   but I frequently accidentally invoke it,

01:58:34   especially when I'm trying to drag things.

01:58:36   - So that's exactly it.

01:58:37   So the one where I almost like in a rage turned it off

01:58:40   was I went to drag something from the Finder

01:58:43   and instead got Quick Look.

01:58:46   'Cause that's what you get in a Finder

01:58:47   when you 3D click on an item in the Finder.

01:58:50   You get a quick look of it.

01:58:52   Well, why in the world do I want a quick look

01:58:53   of an application?

01:58:55   Just shows you the application icon big.

01:58:57   - Well, like the space bar isn't that hard to hit.

01:59:01   - Right, right.

01:59:02   especially with these new ones,

01:59:03   it's like a millimeter away from the track pad.

01:59:05   - Right, it's not far away.

01:59:07   It's not, your hand has to move far,

01:59:09   especially if your hand is already on the keyboard

01:59:11   and you're using your thumb for the drag,

01:59:14   which is very typical for me, but is also less precise.

01:59:16   Like if I use my index finger, I never do it by accident,

01:59:20   but my thumb is a clumsier digit than my index finger

01:59:24   and my thumb is often, most often,

01:59:26   what I'm using on the track pad

01:59:28   and I'm more likely to trigger it.

01:59:30   I'm also unconv, I remain unconvinced

01:59:33   that the bigger trackpad is in any way an advantage.

01:59:37   There are downsides where you can get

01:59:39   touches you didn't intend more often,

01:59:41   and I don't see what I do where having the trackpad

01:59:46   be this much bigger is actually better.

01:59:48   I'm unconvinced.

01:59:50   I don't get tons of false touches,

01:59:52   and I see that there's all these three fingers

01:59:56   and your thumb in a pinching out thing

01:59:59   exposes the desktop.

02:00:01   You know, I can see how some of these gestures

02:00:03   are so complicated, or use so many fingers, I should say,

02:00:06   that having the extra space might be helpful,

02:00:09   but I'm unconvinced that this is actually better.

02:00:11   And I wonder if they did it

02:00:13   because somebody thinks it looks better.

02:00:15   - Or I think, you know, keep in mind,

02:00:16   like when this body style was, you know,

02:00:19   was released in 2016 with the Touch Bar,

02:00:22   this was kind of Apple saying, like making a statement

02:00:26   that no, the trend of literally everyone else's laptops

02:00:29   going touch screen hybrid, that's wrong.

02:00:32   What you want is the touch surface to be

02:00:34   on the same plane as the keyboard.

02:00:35   Like that was Apple, that was the statement

02:00:37   they were making to the world.

02:00:38   So I think it was part of like,

02:00:40   in making that statement as strongly as they could,

02:00:43   not only do they ship the touch bar on the top,

02:00:45   you know, above the keyboard, but then below the keyboard,

02:00:47   they have this massive touch area to say,

02:00:48   look, this whole thing is touchable,

02:00:50   you don't need to touch the screen.

02:00:51   By the way, I think they're wrong on that.

02:00:52   But regardless, you know, I think it's,

02:00:56   the real world problem with this is very similar

02:00:59   to what I just described with force touch,

02:01:00   or 3D touch on the trackpad,

02:01:02   which is the occurrence of accidental input

02:01:06   and unintended or failed attempts to do basic things

02:01:11   like type without mousing around,

02:01:13   the accidental input happens more often

02:01:17   than the intended use.

02:01:19   If the intended use is to allow a lot of those

02:01:21   big multi, four-finger gestures,

02:01:23   do people really use those much more often

02:01:26   than they accidentally brush the trackpad

02:01:28   was trying to type, like probably not.

02:01:30   So this is another example to me,

02:01:32   and I think it's also telling that when I went back,

02:01:35   after having one of these for like eight months,

02:01:37   when I went back to my 2015 MacBook Pro,

02:01:41   and therefore I went from bigger tripod to a smaller one,

02:01:44   I didn't notice at all.

02:01:45   I didn't even notice for a second.

02:01:46   I wasn't missing the extra space,

02:01:49   even after being used to it pretty well.

02:01:50   Like it was just like, well that was unnecessary.

02:01:54   - Well, I kind of agree.

02:01:56   - And the fact that it causes the accidental input,

02:01:57   I think that to me is the damning thing.

02:01:59   It's like if it didn't have any major downsides,

02:02:02   fine, make it as big as it can be

02:02:04   without causing major downsides.

02:02:05   But I think they went too far.

02:02:06   They made it too big and it does have major downsides

02:02:09   with accidental input.

02:02:10   And so to me, it's not worth it.

02:02:13   - Hasn't been too big of a problem for me in the last week.

02:02:15   I think way less about the trackpad being all new

02:02:18   than I think about the keyboard being new.

02:02:20   The keyboard is something I'm thinking about

02:02:21   every time I type.

02:02:22   And the trackpad, it's like a couple of times a day,

02:02:24   I'm like, ooh, what was that?

02:02:26   And the Force Touch thing is more than the size.

02:02:29   - Agreed.

02:02:30   - I kind of wish, I think I wish that the keyboard

02:02:32   was still the same size as it used to be,

02:02:34   but I know that so far I don't care for the 3D Touch

02:02:37   or Force Touch, whatever.

02:02:38   Yeah, trackpad.

02:02:39   What else?

02:02:41   I had Jonas play Fortnite on it,

02:02:45   which is a very GPU-intensive thing

02:02:50   and is notoriously bad on Macs.

02:02:53   And it was pretty good.

02:02:56   He said, you know, he had to turn the graphics down from the default high to one click down,

02:03:01   but he said it still looked good. It looked good to my eyes. And he was getting not quite

02:03:06   60 frames per second, but it was it seemed never to drop below 50 and it tended to be

02:03:11   in the high 50s.

02:03:12   So you don't need a gaming PC, you should have $5,000 MacBook Pro.

02:03:17   Right exactly. But that I thought that was an almost

02:03:19   360 frames a second.

02:03:21   As a side note on that story though, I thought the weirder thing, and to me it's a very telling

02:03:27   anecdote about how important Mac gaming is to the gaming industry, is I installed Fortnite.

02:03:36   Number one, this sucks.

02:03:37   This is really a boo-his thing where to launch it, you have to get it from Epic.

02:03:44   They don't sell it on the App Store and they don't have it in Steam because the whole game

02:03:47   goes through in-app purchases and they don't want to do a 30% split with anybody. I don't

02:03:52   blame them for that. But you can't just download Fortnite and install Fortnite.app. You have

02:03:57   to install this thing called the Epic Games Launcher. And then every time you want to

02:04:01   play, you have to like start the Epic Games Launcher and then launch Fortnite from there.

02:04:07   And then once you install it, it like the Epic Games Launcher somehow without asking,

02:04:12   I don't know how they did it. I it's weird, but I haven't quite figured it out, but they

02:04:15   somehow I think maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just that I logged out and had the setting

02:04:21   to relaunch everything that was there. But when I log back in, I logged out and log back

02:04:25   in and the epics games launcher launched again and wouldn't quit. I had to force quit it.

02:04:31   And I'm allowed to say epic fail. You are. That's awful. But here's the weird part. The

02:04:37   really weird part was the first time we launched it and Jonas signed in with his credentials

02:04:43   and got ready to play and everything loaded.

02:04:47   And then it made, it's like finding a match,

02:04:49   finding a hundred people for him to play against.

02:04:50   And then it said, loading dot, dot, dot,

02:04:52   and a progress bar marched across.

02:04:54   And the progress bar was like 98% of the way there,

02:04:58   and then just didn't go any further.

02:05:00   And it wasn't frozen 'cause the dot, dot, dot

02:05:02   next to the word loading continued to animate.

02:05:05   And it just kept waiting and waiting and waiting.

02:05:08   I mean, minutes, literally minutes.

02:05:10   And we were like, "What the hell?"

02:05:12   And it was like, "I don't know what to do."

02:05:13   and you couldn't quit at that time.

02:05:15   So we had a force, we force quit, did it again,

02:05:17   and it just got that far and waited.

02:05:19   Like, easily, definitely minutes.

02:05:21   I was like, give it a couple minutes,

02:05:22   and minutes and minutes and minutes,

02:05:24   and like way more minutes than it could possibly be normal.

02:05:28   And it certainly wasn't waiting on the internet.

02:05:30   The internet speed here is absolutely fantastic.

02:05:33   It's like 150 megabits per second up and down.

02:05:36   Marcos, mm-hmm.

02:05:41   So Jonas and I started searching the web for solutions.

02:05:44   And I found, there were a couple of these,

02:05:46   like infinite loading and some of them date back years.

02:05:48   But then I found a thread just from June

02:05:53   where somebody said, you know, said they had this problem.

02:05:56   And then somebody else said, wait about 10 minutes.

02:06:00   It takes about 10 minutes for the first match

02:06:02   and then you'll be in.

02:06:05   And then after that subsequent matches

02:06:07   will start up automatically.

02:06:09   Epic has known about this since April and he had like a link where he pointed to a thing where this exact problem

02:06:15   Was reported to epic in like early april and it's just on mac just on mac

02:06:19   Uh, and I think just some max it seemed like everybody was saying macbook pro

02:06:23   um

02:06:25   So I don't know, you know it

02:06:27   It may not be every mac, but it's certainly enough. It's certainly it's it was once you start googling it. It's it's wide enough

02:06:33   Uh, is it too soon to ask if it was throttling?

02:06:36   No, but what a weird bug like the first match you play you have to wait 10 minutes and weird enough

02:06:42   So the way fortnite works is you're in a hundred person battle royale hundred people

02:06:46   Uh free for all last person standing wins and you try to shoot everybody else

02:06:51   Uh on a big map by the time jonas got in on the one where he waited 10 minutes

02:06:56   There were only 30 people left

02:06:58   So like the game had the match had been going on and so in a weird way

02:07:03   it was sort of like a cheat because he got to start playing after 70 people had already been

02:07:09   eliminated. It's sort of like jumping into a marathon at the 18th mile. It's like, "Hey,

02:07:14   I'm winning." And as promised in the thread, he was eliminated and he said, "I'll play again."

02:07:21   And it loaded him. Everything was normal at that point. But I think that's so telling that a bug

02:07:26   so glaring has existed in the Mac version of Fortnite since April. And they've had several

02:07:31   update since you know, it's not like they have an update, they

02:07:34   update all the time. And they haven't fixed it. Like clearly,

02:07:37   if this was an issue on the PlayStation, or Xbox or the PC,

02:07:40   it would it would be a, you know, priority one bug defects.

02:07:44   And you know, the Mac, it's like, yeah,

02:07:47   you hit the max like half people in the company like we have a

02:07:50   Mac version, right? This is why people install boot camp to play

02:07:55   games on their Mac. And this and that in turn, is the biggest

02:07:59   Hmm, I think we collectively might be

02:08:02   Underestimating the problems that might happen if and when Apple switches the max to arm CPUs and

02:08:09   Either boot camp goes away or

02:08:13   If if somehow boot camp still works and you can install like the arm version of Windows

02:08:18   It certainly isn't going to work with the Intel based games

02:08:21   Well, I think maybe too like there's you know Apple has been

02:08:25   losing gamers for a while.

02:08:26   I mean, to a lot of degrees,

02:08:28   they never really had the gamers.

02:08:29   - Well, the Mac is losing gamers.

02:08:30   Apple's not losing gamers. - Well, right, yes.

02:08:32   Yeah, good clarification.

02:08:33   Yeah, iOS is doing great gamers.

02:08:35   But yeah, the Mac has never prioritized gaming, really,

02:08:38   and it seems to only be getting more and more distant

02:08:41   from it as gaming is getting even more sophisticated.

02:08:45   Like, the GPUs for gaming are getting even more powerful,

02:08:48   and the difference between a gaming GPU

02:08:51   and what Apple puts in its Macs is just getting,

02:08:54   I think wider and wider over time.

02:08:56   And so Apple's solution to gamers on the desktop

02:08:59   is like buy an iMac Pro or a Mac Pro,

02:09:03   that's not gonna work.

02:09:04   And as VR comes in with gaming too,

02:09:08   that becomes even less doable on Mac GPUs and Mac hardware.

02:09:12   So I'm guessing that problem is just gonna work itself out

02:09:15   that way where Macs will just become so bad

02:09:19   as gaming platforms that gamers will just use gaming PCs

02:09:22   and maybe have a Mac laptop on the side also,

02:09:25   but like separate those rules.

02:09:28   - Yeah, so I think what Jonas wants,

02:09:30   and it's weird, it doesn't break my heart,

02:09:32   liking Apple stuff is not a religion for me.

02:09:37   He wants a gaming PC.

02:09:38   I don't think he wants, and we've told him,

02:09:40   well, let's be serious about it.

02:09:42   This is a serious, this is a lot of money,

02:09:45   but he's still using a 2014 MacBook Pro,

02:09:51   which is nice for an eighth grader in my opinion,

02:09:55   but it is four years old.

02:09:56   - And it's less nice for games.

02:09:58   - It is not nice for games at all.

02:09:59   It's really irrelevant to most of the games he wants to play.

02:10:02   There's a, but you know, he plays so many games,

02:10:04   but like there's a game he plays,

02:10:06   I don't know what it's called,

02:10:06   but it's sort of like Risk, and you can play it online,

02:10:10   and you can play it with your friends and stuff like that.

02:10:12   But because it's like a map-based God view game,

02:10:15   it's not graphically intensive at all.

02:10:17   And it still makes his fans roar,

02:10:21   Absolutely roar so yeah, it's it but for stuff like for like fortnight even tells you if you have Intel Iris graphics that it

02:10:28   It'll just die, you know, it just refuses to run

02:10:31   I mean and that's what a four-year-old MacBook Pro has that every member Pro has if it's smaller than 15 inches, right?

02:10:37   Right idea. So I think even a brand new 13 inch MacBook Pro couldn't run for tonight

02:10:41   You're probably right because it does have Irish it might try but there the epic is very explicit that if you have an Intel Iris

02:10:47   Graphics that you're you're you're asking for trouble

02:10:50   But the Mac the 15-inch MacBook Pro at least this one runs it with you know it again

02:10:55   You have to turn it graphics down like one click from their default, but they still look good

02:10:59   Jonah said he'd be you know, he was happy to play it

02:11:01   he thinks it compares very well to what his PlayStation 4 is capable of

02:11:04   but it's really hard to tell because a

02:11:07   1080p TV is very that you're sitting a few feet or from and in front of it's very different than a retina

02:11:13   display that you're sitting a few inches in front of

02:11:17   But, you know, it runs, and I thought that was a pretty cool test.

02:11:20   Also though, it makes the machine egg cooking hot.

02:11:24   - Yeah, that's the wrong tool for the job.

02:11:27   I mean, like, what you, I mean--

02:11:29   - It really gets hot.

02:11:31   And as I sit here, as I brag about the battery life,

02:11:34   I'm getting here doing nothing just looking at the screen.

02:11:36   Right now it still says 88%, and we're over two hours.

02:11:40   Over two hours of me staring at the screen

02:11:42   at almost top brightness.

02:11:44   Am I, what level am I at here?

02:11:45   about 80% brightness. I'm at 88%. Jonas played one round of Fortnite, well two.

02:11:52   There was the one where he had the 10-minute wait and then he played one

02:11:56   normal match and the battery dropped 26%. Yeah and this and with with these

02:12:01   laptops too, with with very high power components when you have like the top

02:12:05   end GPUs, the top end CPUs, it is often the case with modern laptops including

02:12:10   apples that if you max them out like crazy sometimes they can even if they're

02:12:14   plugged in, they can slowly discharge their own battery

02:12:16   because they're using more power

02:12:18   than the power adapter can supply.

02:12:21   And so you actually have limited amount of time

02:12:24   'cause they will eventually drain their own battery

02:12:26   while plugged in and need to be shut down.

02:12:28   So like this is, when I was like going through puberty

02:12:32   and I started getting a mustache,

02:12:34   for the first couple of months,

02:12:35   my mom didn't want to admit to herself

02:12:38   that I was growing up.

02:12:39   And so she made me just occasionally trim it with scissors.

02:12:44   And like eventually, it was ridiculous,

02:12:46   and like eventually after a couple of weeks

02:12:48   or months of that, my uncle was like,

02:12:50   you gotta get this boy a shaver.

02:12:53   I feel like this is the wrong tool for this.

02:12:55   You need to get your Sonic gaming PC.

02:12:57   That's the real answer here.

02:12:57   - But he doesn't want a gaming laptop.

02:12:59   He wants a desktop PC.

02:13:01   - That's the way to do it.

02:13:02   - Right, and you know, he doesn't need it.

02:13:04   He could just take the Switch with him

02:13:07   when he wants to play his perfectly,

02:13:08   or he plays lots of games on his phone.

02:13:11   I think that's a reasonable trade-off.

02:13:12   I think he's actually making the right decision

02:13:14   where he's optimizing to have the best experience

02:13:16   most of the time, which is when he's home,

02:13:19   and just forget about PC gaming period

02:13:21   when he's on the road, and use something like the Switch

02:13:25   or just an iPhone that is actually meant

02:13:27   for mobile gaming for mobile gaming.

02:13:29   I actually, I think he's got his priorities in line.

02:13:33   - Yeah, and that's, you know, like,

02:13:34   there was a series on back to work

02:13:37   over the last like six months or so

02:13:38   where our friend Dan Benjamin built a gaming PC

02:13:40   his son for his son. And then more recently, our friend Mike Hurley built one. And and

02:13:46   like, I gotta say, like, it sounds really fun. Like if I was into PC gaming, I would

02:13:50   have a lot of fun building a gaming PC. And it's so here's the thing. You have to it's,

02:13:56   it's like going to McDonald's, like, everything is so like, tacky. And it's it's like junk

02:14:02   food for PCs. Like, everything's covered in colored lights, and everything. It's like,

02:14:07   It's crazy, but it's all in service of the love of PC gaming,

02:14:11   which can be really awesome, and you just can't do it

02:14:13   on laptops. - Were those guys actually,

02:14:15   quote, unquote, building one by ordering components

02:14:17   separately and assembling?

02:14:18   See, I'm leaning more towards just paying Alienware.

02:14:23   - I mean, you can do that too, but if you or Jonas

02:14:26   have an interest in that, Mike did it for a fun project

02:14:30   for himself and his podcast, and Dan Benjamin did it

02:14:34   as a fun thing for him to do with his son,

02:14:35   and they both said it was like,

02:14:37   Dan hadn't built a PC in years,

02:14:39   Mike had never built a PC,

02:14:40   they both just followed online guides

02:14:42   and it was really easy.

02:14:43   Like, it's a fun activity,

02:14:45   but regardless of how you get it,

02:14:46   I do think like a desktop gaming PC

02:14:47   is the right move for this,

02:14:48   because like, you can struggle trying to, you know,

02:14:52   cut this mustache with scissors,

02:14:53   or you can get the actual right tool for the job,

02:14:55   and the actual right tool for the job is a gaming PC.

02:14:57   - What else on this machine?

02:15:00   I can't think of anything else on the MacBook Pro.

02:15:04   - Have you found, I mean,

02:15:04   I know you haven't had it for that long,

02:15:06   but what do you think about the port situation?

02:15:07   Has that been a problem for you?

02:15:08   - No. - Are you mostly okay?

02:15:09   - No, the only thing, 'cause I haven't had a need for it.

02:15:13   And I don't really use ports anyway.

02:15:15   I use very little USB stuff, especially when I'm traveling.

02:15:20   The one thing we did run into was that to play Fortnite,

02:15:24   Jonas wanted to use his gaming mouse,

02:15:26   which he did bring along, and the gaming mouse, of course,

02:15:28   has a USB-A plug, and this doesn't have USB-A.

02:15:31   and I thought I had a USB-C to A adapter in my backpack,

02:15:35   and I know I own one somewhere,

02:15:36   and I usually keep all of those little fiddly adapters,

02:15:40   even when I use them at home when I'm done,

02:15:42   I put them in my backpack, not on my desk or shelf,

02:15:44   but I didn't have it.

02:15:46   - Yeah, even like a dedicated travel set

02:15:48   with all these things. - Right.

02:15:49   But there was one in the house, thankfully, shockingly.

02:15:53   - No thanks to me. - Right.

02:15:54   But somebody else had one, so problem solved.

02:15:58   That was the only thing that we ran into.

02:16:01   You know, I'm the wrong person to ask about it

02:16:05   'cause I just don't need it.

02:16:06   And even with like, I shoot, I still use a Fuji X100S

02:16:11   that shoots on an SD card and in theory, you know,

02:16:15   someday instead of waiting 'til I get home

02:16:18   and going through the photos on my iMac,

02:16:20   I might wanna do it on this.

02:16:21   But I have, I do have the SSD to USB-C adapter with me,

02:16:25   I think.

02:16:27   - Yeah, that weird like SanDisk, like flat one.

02:16:28   I have one of those, it's really weird.

02:16:30   I think I have it with me.

02:16:32   I don't know, I do know I own one.

02:16:35   But I don't need it on this trip,

02:16:36   so I'm the wrong person to ask about it.

02:16:38   I guess, ATP covers it, I'm assuming that most people

02:16:41   listening to this also listen to ATP,

02:16:43   but you've talked about it.

02:16:44   But I guess the bigger picture thing about the MacBook line

02:16:46   in general is that USB-C has not worked out

02:16:50   the way Apple envisioned.

02:16:52   And they don't have to admit it for us

02:16:53   to know that it's true.

02:16:55   There's just, there can be no doubt that this many years,

02:16:58   three years after the 2015 MacBook appeared

02:17:01   with only a USB-C port, three years is way long enough

02:17:06   for it to be clear that it just has not worked out

02:17:10   the way they clearly thought it would.

02:17:11   And almost everything you buy that's USB-C still is USB-A.

02:17:16   And when you buy the USB-C stuff, it doesn't work.

02:17:20   A lot of it is junk.

02:17:22   - It's very flaky.

02:17:23   Like that to me was the biggest problem

02:17:25   when I was using these full-time that I ran into

02:17:27   was a lot of my stuff, it was unreliable.

02:17:30   Like the dongle would be unreliable

02:17:32   or it would work in a port on the laptop

02:17:35   but not on one of the ports in the LG Ultrafine monitor

02:17:38   or something like that.

02:17:39   Like there were all these little exceptions.

02:17:41   Like well this USB device, like the keyboard dongle

02:17:43   would work in this adapter but not that adapter

02:17:46   and it was just so flaky and it makes it really difficult

02:17:49   even if you're willing to go all in on USB-C.

02:17:52   You're saying okay fine, I'll buy all new cables,

02:17:54   I'll buy hubs, whatever I have to buy, sure I'll go all in.

02:17:57   But the ecosystem still makes it pretty difficult

02:17:59   to do that reliably.

02:18:00   - And it's funny, I haven't had any incidents

02:18:02   with this machine that I've been using for a week,

02:18:05   but about 10 days ago, somewhere around there,

02:18:09   after I talked to Apple and they were like,

02:18:11   "Hey, we'll send you a review unit,"

02:18:12   and I was waiting for it.

02:18:14   And while I was using my other machine,

02:18:16   I had a prototypical mag-safe thing

02:18:20   where I was working with my personal 13-inch on a table

02:18:24   I didn't usually, I forget where I was even,

02:18:26   I must not even have been at home.

02:18:28   I was somewhere working in a weird, unfamiliar spot,

02:18:31   and I stood up, and me personally,

02:18:33   I can't blame anybody else,

02:18:34   just totally kicked the power cord,

02:18:36   'cause I, oop, forgot it was there,

02:18:37   and just, bloop, little perfect MagSafe just came out.

02:18:41   Because it was on my mind that this machine was coming

02:18:44   and I knew I'd be using it, I was like,

02:18:46   "Wow, I'm glad that happened with this and not with that."

02:18:49   - Yeah.

02:18:51   - So that's another one that I'd add to the list

02:18:54   of things that they've changed

02:18:55   that I see it, I understand it to some degree,

02:18:58   but boy, it's two steps forward and at least one step back,

02:19:02   if not two steps in one good direction

02:19:05   and two entire steps in a bad direction.

02:19:07   - Do you miss the other things that have changed

02:19:09   about the power being like no longer having the little wings

02:19:12   and the power brick and not having the light

02:19:14   on the end of it?

02:19:16   - I miss both of those things tremendously.

02:19:18   - Yeah, me too.

02:19:19   - Just because, especially when you travel,

02:19:21   there's unfamiliar ports in the one.

02:19:24   You never know when your hotel, it's unusual,

02:19:28   but when you travel to somebody's house,

02:19:30   who knows which adapters or plugs in the wall

02:19:33   are hooked up to a light switch or not.

02:19:35   - Oh yeah.

02:19:36   - Right?

02:19:37   - Or if you accidentally, if you have one of the old,

02:19:40   loose outlets and your brick has slid out

02:19:42   from it a little bit, you kinda don't know.

02:19:44   - Right, I'm addicted to the confirmation

02:19:47   in a way that an iPhone, if you plug it into power

02:19:50   and it is getting power, the screen will always come on

02:19:53   and just show you a little green lightning,

02:19:55   like okay, I'm getting some juice,

02:19:57   and then you can just walk away.

02:19:58   When you have a clamshell closed MacBook

02:20:01   and you plug it into power and you assume

02:20:03   that when you come back from dinner

02:20:05   or when you wake up in a more, whatever the period is,

02:20:08   that this'll be nice and charged, I wanna know it.

02:20:12   I wanna see that green light.

02:20:13   I miss that terribly.

02:20:14   - 'Cause it just, it makes the little sound,

02:20:16   but only if it's not muted.

02:20:18   - Right. - And also,

02:20:19   you might not be able to hear the sound

02:20:20   depending on the environment.

02:20:21   And also there's no way to glance at it

02:20:24   from across the room and see is it charging

02:20:26   or is it charged?

02:20:27   - Right.

02:20:28   - Yeah, and the wings-- - It's a great distinction.

02:20:29   - The wings on the adapter, I complained about that

02:20:31   in my review in 2016 and it still stands

02:20:33   because it was a great design and I use them all the time.

02:20:37   I mean, there might be people who don't know it

02:20:39   'cause it is a weird little thing,

02:20:40   but if you have an older MacBook Power Adapter

02:20:43   and those two little plastic,

02:20:45   I can't think of anything better to call it than wings

02:20:47   that pull out on the one side.

02:20:49   they're meant for you to wrap the skinny part

02:20:51   of the power adapter around.

02:20:53   And they are absolutely amazing.

02:20:56   They do the job better than anything I can imagine,

02:20:58   other than if it could actually retract.

02:21:01   - Yeah, that would be better.

02:21:01   - Right.

02:21:02   - But I can't see Apple doing that.

02:21:04   - Right, because they'd have to make it bigger.

02:21:05   - And also it's kind of like a crappy,

02:21:07   it's kind of like a low class mechanism

02:21:10   to have a little retracting thing.

02:21:11   But I actually would kind of like that.

02:21:13   But yeah, the new ones, I feel like

02:21:14   when I'm carrying them around,

02:21:15   I have this mess of power cable in the bag,

02:21:18   no matter how nicely I try to wrap it up,

02:21:20   it's nothing compared to having the old brick

02:21:22   just where I could wrap it around the brick

02:21:24   and have it hold there and have it all nice and compact

02:21:27   and organized.

02:21:28   - All right, let me take one last break here.

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02:22:42   ah, just do everything on Facebook

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02:25:08   Again, anybody comes to me,

02:25:09   whether they sponsor it or not,

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02:25:17   of this show and obviously many other fine podcasts.

02:25:20   Last but not least on this new thing,

02:25:26   Apple gave me the leather sleeve that goes with it.

02:25:29   They've started, this is new to the MacBook Pros.

02:25:32   They've made leather cases for iPhones for years.

02:25:35   They've made leather sleeves for the iPad for a year.

02:25:40   - Something like that.

02:25:41   - Yeah, and now starting about two weeks ago

02:25:43   when these new MacBook Pros come out,

02:25:45   they have leather sleeves for them.

02:25:47   It's 180.

02:25:48   - You can't even get to the price.

02:25:52   - It's $180 for the 13 inch model

02:25:56   and $200 for the 15 inch model.

02:26:00   And it's just a sleeve.

02:26:03   It is leather.

02:26:05   They sent me the black one. It was nice. I don't know what material it is inside, but

02:26:09   some kind of like microfiber type thing. Very soft. It has a very subtle Apple logo on it.

02:26:14   I don't, I, I do use a sleeve type thing with my 13 inch MacBook pro. I forget what brand

02:26:21   it is, but it's sort of like a padded thing because I use a backpack that doesn't have

02:26:24   a padded area for a laptop. But it is more than just a sleeve. It's padded. It has a

02:26:31   zipper and it has a zipper compartment where I keep a bunch of certain essential things that

02:26:36   I want to have with me at all times. I personally have no interest in a sleeve of any sort,

02:26:42   leather or not, that doesn't have like a compartment that I can do things in because

02:26:48   if I really just, if I don't need anything else with me, I would just take the bare MacBook,

02:26:54   you know. I showed it to my wife, Amy, who knows, has experienced and more opinions on fine leather

02:27:04   goods like handbags, that sort of thing, wallets and things like that than I do. And I showed it

02:27:10   to her and she knew what it was. And I just said, "What, how much do you think this cost?" And she

02:27:15   felt it, took a, you know, a couple of seconds looking at it and just rubbed the leather. And

02:27:20   And she said, and I think this was her including

02:27:24   what she perceived to be Apple's premium pricing,

02:27:26   she said, $60.

02:27:27   (laughing)

02:27:29   And I said, it's 200.

02:27:31   And we were in the kitchen and she yelled, no!

02:27:36   (laughing)

02:27:37   So loud that our son Jonas, who's on summer vacation,

02:27:41   he's upstairs in his bedroom's right above our kitchen.

02:27:44   He thought, and he's used to it every once in a while,

02:27:47   that she'll discover that, you know,

02:27:48   let's say he left like an empty bag of chips

02:27:51   in the table or something,

02:27:52   did some kind of gross violation of family protocol,

02:27:55   she'll yell, "Joe!"

02:27:57   Or even if she yells, "Jonas!"

02:28:01   That first syllable is what he hears,

02:28:03   so she yelled, "No!"

02:28:05   And Jonas goes, "I'm coming!"

02:28:07   (laughing)

02:28:09   So I would summarize her reaction to it

02:28:16   as it being not worth $200.

02:28:19   - That seems like a fair summary.

02:28:21   - It is possible, I don't know.

02:28:23   It is possible that the reason,

02:28:26   her thought is that this is not high quality leather.

02:28:29   It is possible though that she's comparing it

02:28:31   against something like a nice handbag,

02:28:34   which has, maybe this is treated for water resistance

02:28:38   or something that makes it less supple and undesirable

02:28:42   for something like that and more desirable for this.

02:28:45   I don't know, but the person in our household

02:28:48   who has stronger opinions on leather bags

02:28:51   definitely was not impressed by the $200 price point.

02:28:55   - Yeah, I was able to feel one of these as well.

02:29:00   - Well, I've got mine here.

02:29:01   - Yeah, I wasn't sure if you were allowed

02:29:02   to share your review unit with other people

02:29:04   outside your family. - Oh, yes, yeah.

02:29:06   There's no embargo on it.

02:29:07   - But, yeah, but suffice to say,

02:29:08   I was able to experience one of these products.

02:29:11   - Did you type on his keyboard yet?

02:29:14   briefly I think.

02:29:15   - You wanna play with it?

02:29:16   - Let me see.

02:29:17   (laughs)

02:29:19   Let me see.

02:29:20   - That's just the end of the Apple note with the show notes.

02:29:23   So you can type whatever you want.

02:29:25   - Yeah, anyway, so I was able, this feels,

02:29:28   it feels slightly like stickier than the old one.

02:29:34   Like it feels like the keys,

02:29:37   it feels like they're like,

02:29:38   they don't pop back like as readily as the other ones,

02:29:41   but not by a huge margin.

02:29:42   It's a small,

02:29:43   I'll have to really just use mine for a while

02:29:44   to say really no, but--

02:29:45   - Yeah, the silicone layer definitely adds

02:29:47   a sort of organic feel that's not there

02:29:49   from a purely, I don't know if these words

02:29:52   quite make sense, but without the silicone layer

02:29:55   where it's purely mechanical,

02:29:57   everything involved is either metal or plastic,

02:30:00   there's a mechanicalness to the feel,

02:30:03   and the silicone layer adds an organic feel to it

02:30:07   that I find pleasing, but--

02:30:09   - Yeah, I'll have to take the time with it, but--

02:30:11   - Right.

02:30:12   So the leather thing, I think,

02:30:15   if you're familiar with their leather cases for iPhones,

02:30:18   it's nothing like that.

02:30:19   If you're familiar with the leather case they made

02:30:21   for iPad that we mentioned earlier,

02:30:22   it's really nothing like that either.

02:30:24   Like that's what I was kind of expecting.

02:30:25   The iPad case is a much thicker,

02:30:27   more supple, more soft leather.

02:30:30   The MacBook Pro leather case barely feels like leather.

02:30:34   It feels more like a plastic composite kind of thing.

02:30:37   - It does. - Because I think,

02:30:39   I'm sure, if they say it's leather, I'm sure it is, but--

02:30:42   - I'm sure too. - I think the leather is,

02:30:43   it's probably a very, very thin layer of leather

02:30:46   because any thicker leather layer would probably

02:30:49   be pretty bulky and heavy at that size.

02:30:51   But regardless, the iPad mind I think feels pretty good

02:30:55   and provides a nice utility of having that pencil pocket

02:30:57   for the Apple Pencil.

02:30:58   This does not offer any, neither the good feel

02:31:03   nor the additional utility of a pocket.

02:31:04   - Yeah, if you came to me without telling me it was leather

02:31:08   and said, "Do you think this is leather or not?"

02:31:10   I think I might even guess no.

02:31:11   What's that material that Microsoft started using

02:31:14   and they use in the inside of cars?

02:31:15   - Akatera. - Akatera.

02:31:17   I might, I would think like,

02:31:19   maybe what's that stuff that Microsoft,

02:31:21   I would say the same thing and you'd say Akatera.

02:31:23   I bet this is Akatera or something.

02:31:25   - Yeah, I mean, 'cause it doesn't feel cloth-like.

02:31:27   It feels like plastic gear or rubber,

02:31:30   'cause it just, it feels like a very thin,

02:31:33   like fake leather, basically,

02:31:34   because it just, again, whatever the reasons were,

02:31:37   whether it was cost, probably not.

02:31:39   it was probably like thickness and weight at that size.

02:31:42   It just doesn't feel good.

02:31:43   I would, if you are a laptop sleeve person,

02:31:47   which I've never been,

02:31:48   so I don't really know the market that well,

02:31:50   but if you are, I imagine the reason

02:31:53   you would get a laptop sleeve would be what you said,

02:31:55   which is like if you're putting it in a bag

02:31:56   that does not have a padded compartment,

02:31:58   you want like some padding,

02:31:59   or you want like a dedicated thing,

02:32:00   so other stuff in the same compartment

02:32:02   doesn't scratch it up or something like that,

02:32:04   this can provide some of that,

02:32:08   but pretty much no other value.

02:32:10   It doesn't provide, it doesn't give you a nice feel.

02:32:12   I didn't think it looked very good either.

02:32:14   And I just, I don't see why you'd want it, honestly.

02:32:18   - Even the Syracuse types who want to fanatically maintain

02:32:23   the exterior in as close to mint condition as they can,

02:32:28   avoiding any and all fine, quote unquote, microabrasions,

02:32:32   et cetera, I think the fact that it doesn't zip shut

02:32:34   would be unappealing to them.

02:32:36   Like, I can't see, even if Syracuse,

02:32:38   in a $200, which I can't see him buying.

02:32:42   I cannot see John buying a $200 leather sleeve.

02:32:45   But even if it was free, I don't think he would use it

02:32:48   'cause I don't think it would satisfy his,

02:32:50   I need to feel like I can throw this anywhere

02:32:53   and it's never gonna come into contact with anything.

02:32:55   'Cause it's got an open end.

02:32:57   - Not to mention, if you're putting stuff in and out of it,

02:32:59   it's gonna get scratched from grit.

02:33:00   - Right.

02:33:01   - And especially because there was the open end.

02:33:03   Then when the laptop is not in it, or even when it is.

02:33:05   - And it's a very snug fit, right?

02:33:07   So if any kind of grit got in there, it's not easy to get in.

02:33:10   I mean, not hard either, but it is sort of like, you know,

02:33:13   you know, like when you just put a check in an envelope, it's nice and easy.

02:33:21   It's easy because an envelope is way bigger than the check.

02:33:23   But when you put a greeting card in the greeting card envelope, it's like,

02:33:29   shimmy it in.

02:33:30   Yeah, you got to shimmy it in. That's exactly what it's like.

02:33:32   This is like, when I put my 13-inch MacBook in my padded case up there,

02:33:36   It's like putting a check in an envelope. It just goes in and out when I put this in the leather sleeve

02:33:41   It's like putting a birthday card into the envelope and it's like you've got this envelope. That is exactly

02:33:46   1/16 of an inch bigger than the card. Yeah, I'm I'm guessing that after this trip of you having this one here

02:33:55   I'm guessing I never see another one of these in the wild again. Oh

02:33:58   The sleeve yeah, I can't imagine because I can't I don't know no

02:34:03   It just doesn't seem like anything that would appeal

02:34:05   to our friends.

02:34:06   I mean, it might, well, I wonder.

02:34:09   It just does not seem like an idea that has legs, you know?

02:34:12   - I think it requires different execution

02:34:15   than what they've done here.

02:34:16   It requires, if you're gonna have something that size

02:34:19   and that high market, it's gonna need to be better leather,

02:34:21   it's gonna need to feel better,

02:34:22   it's gonna need to be more supple,

02:34:23   it's probably gonna need like an exterior pocket

02:34:26   or something, like some additional utility

02:34:28   in addition to nicer grade leather.

02:34:29   - And it also seems like almost most people,

02:34:32   typical people don't want to spend a lot on a case.

02:34:36   And most people, you know, the whole side thing

02:34:38   we can go on about how 90, at least seemingly 98%

02:34:41   of iPhone users use a case.

02:34:44   - We live in dark times.

02:34:46   - But almost nobody, I see almost nobody

02:34:47   in the real world with an Apple case.

02:34:49   It's almost all third party.

02:34:51   And I guess part of that is, you know,

02:34:53   the way that people express their individualism

02:34:55   and you see all sorts of, you know,

02:34:58   just thousands, literally thousands of different designs

02:35:01   in the iPhone cases is you walk around, you know,

02:35:04   like a mall or an airport and you see people

02:35:06   or Disney World and you see all these iPhones

02:35:07   out taking cameras, you could go all day

02:35:09   and never see the same case twice.

02:35:11   But I very seldom see people using Apple cases.

02:35:14   But when we're together, like at WWDC

02:35:17   and our group of friends are together,

02:35:19   among the people who use a case on their phone,

02:35:21   we also see a disproportionate number of people like me

02:35:23   who don't use a case, but we also see,

02:35:25   I also notice clearly a disproportionate number of people

02:35:28   who use the Apple case.

02:35:29   - Yeah.

02:35:30   I think part of it, I think the biggest part is that

02:35:34   us, me, you, we're the sort of people like,

02:35:38   Casey List, I think uses an Apple leather case,

02:35:42   willing to spend $59 on a case for the iPhone

02:35:46   because we really, really like the way it feels.

02:35:49   - Yeah, the Apple leather case for the phone

02:35:50   is really nice, I'm using one now

02:35:51   'cause normally I'm caseless, but during the summertime,

02:35:54   it slides out of my shorts pockets,

02:35:56   and I'm sitting down, like every time I sit down,

02:35:57   so I really like the Apple leather case.

02:36:00   They've always been really nice.

02:36:01   - Yeah, and sweaty, the last few years of iPhone designs

02:36:04   have been very, very poor for sweaty hands

02:36:07   and humid weather, and I don't have one on right now,

02:36:10   but I actually packed one in my bag for this trip

02:36:12   out of thinking, like, if my phone starts feeling slippery,

02:36:14   I'm gonna put it in that case,

02:36:16   and I like the way the leather feels,

02:36:17   and I love the way that the buttons

02:36:19   still feel like actual buttons,

02:36:21   and not like I'm pushing the outline of a button

02:36:24   on a case that is pushing a button on the case.

02:36:26   It feels like I'm still pushing a button.

02:36:28   - Yeah, a couple years ago, when they,

02:36:29   I think it was the 6S generation

02:36:31   where they switched the buttons in the case

02:36:33   from just like dimples in the leather

02:36:35   to actual like additional metal buttons

02:36:37   and it made a huge difference in how it feels.

02:36:40   - But I don't see that happening.

02:36:43   So I think Apple does very, very,

02:36:46   even though the majority of people

02:36:48   with iPhone cases don't buy the Apple case,

02:36:50   I still think Apple sells enough of the cases

02:36:51   that it's a very, very successful

02:36:53   little accessory business for them.

02:36:55   I don't anticipate the leather sleeve being one.

02:36:58   'Cause I feel like some people want a sleeve

02:37:01   and they want a pocket and they want to carry

02:37:03   other stuff in it.

02:37:04   Other people want a sleeve and they just want

02:37:06   something cheap to protect the laptop.

02:37:08   And I don't think anybody who really likes

02:37:11   fine leather goods and is willing to spend a premium for it

02:37:13   is gonna like the feel of this case.

02:37:15   I don't see who the market is.

02:37:17   - Yeah, and I think we've probably spent more time

02:37:19   talking about it than anybody else ever will.

02:37:21   - This is your go-to podcast for discussion of Apple's

02:37:26   $200 leather sleeve for the MacBook Pro.

02:37:29   - Do you think any of the Apple executives

02:37:32   that are on the leadership page on the site,

02:37:34   so like the SVP level, the C level,

02:37:37   do you think any of them have talked about this

02:37:38   for this long with anybody?

02:37:41   - I wonder, I don't think so.

02:37:42   - I'm guessing not.

02:37:43   - I suspect the one who would have the strongest,

02:37:47   the two who would have the strongest opinion

02:37:48   would be Angela Ahrendts, because she certainly knows

02:37:52   her fine leather goods after having been CEO of Burberry

02:37:57   and her experience in the clothing industry

02:38:01   and fashion, whatever, whatever you'd like to describe

02:38:04   her pre-Apple career as, and then maybe Schiller,

02:38:08   just because Schiller cares about everything.

02:38:09   - Yeah.

02:38:10   - But I can't see Schiller using one.

02:38:13   I just, I don't know.

02:38:17   - Well, and they would, like an Apple person

02:38:18   would never be seen using one of these cases.

02:38:20   Like the same reason they always carry their iPhones

02:38:22   without cases around there.

02:38:23   Like that famous press Q&A where like,

02:38:27   was it Steve, Phil, and Tim were up on stage?

02:38:29   - And I'm the one who asked the question.

02:38:30   - For Antennagate.

02:38:30   Oh, that was you?

02:38:31   - Yeah.

02:38:32   - Oh, that's great.

02:38:33   - You didn't know that?

02:38:34   - I think I forgot.

02:38:35   I think I knew it back then, but I forgot.

02:38:35   - For those who don't know,

02:38:36   when they held the special press conference

02:38:38   in town hall for Antennagate,

02:38:40   and if you'll recall,

02:38:42   it was actually Apple's first owned cases.

02:38:44   Like for the original 3G and 3GS,

02:38:47   Apple didn't make any cases.

02:38:49   And when the iPhone 4 came out,

02:38:51   they still didn't make cases,

02:38:52   'cause I think Apple was still opposed to the idea

02:38:55   of putting phones in cases,

02:38:56   but they made the quote unquote bumper,

02:38:59   which was meant to be, as designed,

02:39:02   it meant to be protection so that you could put it face down

02:39:04   and the glass wouldn't hit the surface of the table

02:39:07   and it would offer some sort of shock per, you know.

02:39:10   But it was like a case that left the entire back exposed

02:39:12   along with the front.

02:39:13   - It was a case designed by people who clearly hated cases.

02:39:17   - Yes, and the flat sides of the sort of rectilinear nature

02:39:22   of the iPhone 4 and 4S design made it very amenable

02:39:26   to that sort of thing.

02:39:27   Like, I'm not sure that a bumper would work

02:39:30   with the last few generations of round edge.

02:39:34   - Nah. - I don't think so.

02:39:35   I think it needs to be flat.

02:39:37   But anyway, part of their solution to the publicity

02:39:40   around Antennagate and the attenuation that some people

02:39:44   who were holding their phones wrong experienced

02:39:46   in low cell signal areas was, okay,

02:39:51   we'll make the bumpers free.

02:39:52   Everybody who buys an iPhone 4 can get

02:39:54   an Apple bumper for free.

02:39:57   And the bumper completely eliminated the problem

02:40:00   because the whole problem was if your skin bridged a gap

02:40:04   in the external steel antenna frame,

02:40:07   that's what caused the problem because your skin

02:40:09   would allow a signal to transfer from one antenna piece

02:40:13   to another that it shouldn't.

02:40:15   and if you had the bumper on,

02:40:16   then your skin couldn't touch that gap.

02:40:19   And then they did a Q&A, and people, which I think--

02:40:23   - That was unheard of.

02:40:24   - Oh, I think it's the last,

02:40:25   still think it's the last time.

02:40:26   It's the last time I was at a thing,

02:40:28   at a press event where there was a Q&A,

02:40:30   and I'd never been at one before.

02:40:31   It was very, happened many more years ago, maybe more often,

02:40:35   but this was truly unusual.

02:40:37   And a couple of the initial questions from other people,

02:40:41   other people in the media, seemed to be,

02:40:44   I could sort of see a narrative emerging

02:40:47   that wasn't, I didn't think was what Apple meant,

02:40:49   but I could tell from the other questions

02:40:51   that other members of the media

02:40:53   were starting to form a narrative

02:40:55   where Apple's answer to this antenna issue

02:40:58   is that everybody, they're gonna give everybody a bumper

02:41:00   and everybody should use it.

02:41:02   - Like a software patch almost.

02:41:03   Like you should install this.

02:41:05   - Right, like to properly use this phone

02:41:07   and maintain a cell signal,

02:41:08   you're gonna put this free bumper on.

02:41:10   And so my question was, and it was Schiller,

02:41:15   well, a guy named Steve Jobs.

02:41:17   - Was it Tim, I assume? - No, I don't think

02:41:20   it was Tim. - Was it Jaws, maybe?

02:41:22   - Nope, I think it might have been,

02:41:24   Bob Mansfield was up there.

02:41:26   - Oh, okay, 'cause I think it was only three of them total,

02:41:28   so that must be it.

02:41:29   - I don't think Tim Cook was up there,

02:41:31   so it would have been 2010, it would have been July of 2010.

02:41:35   And I think, I know Schiller and Jobs

02:41:37   and big Bob Mansfield were up there,

02:41:40   and I don't think Tim Cook was, I think it was just the three.

02:41:42   Four would be too many.

02:41:43   And I raised my hand, I think it was Jobs who called on me,

02:41:48   but he just pointed and I said,

02:41:52   I think there's video of it, but I think I just asked,

02:41:57   does everybody need to use, or I just said,

02:42:01   I don't know, I formulated it very well.

02:42:03   I'm usually very poor, I'm doing a very poor job

02:42:05   of re-grading the question right now,

02:42:07   but I think I just asked, do you guys use a bumper

02:42:10   or do you just carry it without one and have no problem?

02:42:12   And instead of answering the question,

02:42:14   all three had this, without even saying anything--

02:42:16   - It was perfect, it was like the perfect PR move.

02:42:18   - They all three reached into their right jeans pocket

02:42:21   and pulled out a naked iPhone 4.

02:42:24   And the crowd laughed, and I was like,

02:42:27   ah, that worked out really well.

02:42:28   I'm really glad I got my question asked.

02:42:30   - Yeah. (laughs)

02:42:32   So yeah, I think it does seem like the official position

02:42:35   that Apple tries to express,

02:42:37   like in their executives' public appearances,

02:42:39   is that you don't need a case for their phones.

02:42:41   - Right.

02:42:42   And you don't need a leather sleeve for your MacBook Pro.

02:42:46   Well, we've been going on long enough.

02:42:49   - This is short for us.

02:42:50   - Yeah, it is short for us.

02:42:51   I was gonna go on a whole thing

02:42:53   about this whole podcast hosting thing,

02:42:55   but I don't know that we need to.

02:42:56   - Nah.

02:42:57   - I don't know, you might have opinions.

02:43:00   Do you have any opinions on podcasting?

02:43:02   (laughs)

02:43:03   - Never.

02:43:06   How's it going with the watch version of Overcast now

02:43:11   that you can actually play audio in the background?

02:43:14   Can you talk about that?

02:43:14   - Oh man, yeah, I mean it's in development still,

02:43:16   but the development version's pretty much done.

02:43:18   I hope to be in beta pretty soon.

02:43:21   And yeah, when this fall,

02:43:22   when WatchOS 5 and iOS 12 come out this fall,

02:43:25   Overcast has full standalone watch playback,

02:43:28   and it's great.

02:43:29   It's finally doable.

02:43:31   The OS finally gives app developers what we needed

02:43:35   to make that compelling at all,

02:43:37   to make it even barely functional at all.

02:43:38   And it turns out, it turned out really great.

02:43:40   I use it all the time now, and I can't wait to ship it.

02:43:44   - Yeah, and it's an interesting combination

02:43:46   of a couple of finalies where, I mean,

02:43:49   and I've been doing this for years

02:43:50   in my sporadic jogging habit of somehow trying to get by

02:43:55   with the least amount of kit while I can still

02:43:59   either listen to music or podcasts.

02:44:02   And I did the thing for a while where I had

02:44:04   the little square iPod Nano on a,

02:44:09   what was it called, the TikTok wristband?

02:44:10   - Oh yeah, that Kickstarter wrist strap for it.

02:44:12   - It was like one of the first Kickstarter sensation

02:44:14   projects, it was like a watch band for the square iPod Nano

02:44:19   that in hindsight was humongous as a watch,

02:44:22   but allowed you, but as Tim Cook famously said

02:44:25   before the watch, the wrist is an interesting place.

02:44:28   And it's an interesting place,

02:44:29   it was always an interesting place to put a little thing

02:44:31   like that for the reason that it for over a century now has been an interesting place to

02:44:36   put a carry-on timepiece and the biggest problem with it wasn't the wristband it was a fine

02:44:42   wristband and it wasn't you know looking at it which was great it was a great place to put it

02:44:47   because you could see it like when you clipped it on your shirt you couldn't really see it the

02:44:52   problem was for audio having a cable go from your wrist to your ears was often awful because that

02:45:00   before Bluetooth was really—

02:45:01   - Oh, yeah, it was definitely before Bluetooth.

02:45:03   And you'd have this, you know,

02:45:04   and it always sort of felt like you had an IV

02:45:06   hooked up to you, you know?

02:45:07   (laughing)

02:45:09   Like, it's just, like, in a way that it just never feels

02:45:11   good to be tethered to an IV when you're in the hospital

02:45:15   or, you know, drawing blood or whatever, you know,

02:45:17   is going on.

02:45:18   It just never felt good to have a cable

02:45:20   connected to my wrist and my head, you know?

02:45:24   But I feel like we're finally at the point

02:45:26   where we will finally be this fall

02:45:27   when WatchOS comes out with this support

02:45:29   where a combination of AirPods and Apple Watch

02:45:32   with audio support, good audio support,

02:45:36   will actually give us a thing that we've,

02:45:38   I've been looking for for, you know, 15 years.

02:45:41   - Yeah, they finally gave it to us.

02:45:43   And again, I have been using it.

02:45:45   I've been testing with it, doing lots of dog walks

02:45:47   with just my watch and everything, and it's great.

02:45:50   And I think, you know, ultimately,

02:45:52   I don't think people are gonna use it that much

02:45:54   compared to using their phone,

02:45:55   because your phone is still better if you have it with you.

02:45:58   but if you don't have it with you,

02:46:00   or if you don't wanna have it with you,

02:46:01   this now gives you the option.

02:46:02   - Yeah, it really exemplifies, to me,

02:46:05   an unusual pattern for Apple.

02:46:07   In the old days, Microsoft was famous for this pattern

02:46:11   of doing an absolutely dreadful 1.0,

02:46:15   that even at a point where they were a successful company,

02:46:18   or maybe the most successful company in all of technology,

02:46:21   whatever they came out with as a 1.0 would be terrible,

02:46:24   and even the might of, marketing might of Microsoft

02:46:26   couldn't make it, it was both bad, technically,

02:46:31   and a failure in the market.

02:46:34   But then, rather than abandon it,

02:46:36   keep their nose to the grindstone

02:46:37   and do a 2.0 that still wasn't any good,

02:46:40   but was clearly better, and still not give up on it,

02:46:45   and spend another 18 months at it,

02:46:47   and come out with a 3.0,

02:46:48   and it is best exemplified by Windows, right?

02:46:50   Nobody even, most, there are very few people of any age

02:46:53   who remember any version of Windows prior to Windows 3.1,

02:46:57   really, but that 3.0, look,

02:46:58   when you show people screenshots of Windows 2,

02:47:00   and especially Windows 1, I never saw Windows 2 or 1, never.

02:47:03   - Neither did I.

02:47:04   My first computer had 3.1 on it.

02:47:06   - I was a nerd, and I had friends who had PCs,

02:47:08   and I don't even know that we knew Windows existed.

02:47:13   They just never left, they never used anything but DOS.

02:47:15   But Windows is the,

02:47:17   but there are all sorts of Microsoft products like that.

02:47:19   And I don't know that the watch was quite that bad,

02:47:21   but it's a similar,

02:47:23   Apple's better known for coming out with a sensation.

02:47:26   You know, like the way that, oh, there were so many problems

02:47:28   with the original iPhone and it edged networking

02:47:31   and didn't even shoot video

02:47:32   and the still photos were terrible

02:47:34   and it was really kind of underpowered CPU-wise.

02:47:38   - Didn't have GPS either.

02:47:39   - Didn't have GPS.

02:47:40   It was missing all sorts of ridiculous things.

02:47:42   Didn't even have an app store, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

02:47:43   But it was still, it was just a sensation.

02:47:45   It was absolu--

02:47:46   And you know, and in hindsight, sensation,

02:47:49   it's like it only sold like 11 million in the first year

02:47:51   or something like that.

02:47:52   It was way more millions than they promised to sell,

02:47:56   but it was just a great product.

02:47:57   Apple's known for stuff like that.

02:47:58   The watch is almost evolving more

02:48:00   in like a Microsoft-like fashion,

02:48:02   where the first one was really like--

02:48:05   - Real rough. - Really rough,

02:48:06   and you really didn't see a lot of them out in the field,

02:48:09   even among our friends, you know, or our crowd even.

02:48:14   And here we are, you know, what, four years later?

02:48:18   - Three, four, yeah. - Yeah.

02:48:20   And it is a really compelling,

02:48:22   And I see them all over the place, you know, here in the beach town everybody they're all over the place

02:48:26   Yeah, I see them everywhere, right and it just really seems even all rumors of you know

02:48:32   Design refresh possibly coming at later this year. That'll make it thinner or whatever

02:48:38   but finally sort of like a new look after

02:48:41   Forged three or three generations of sort of the identical industrial design actually even getting thicker actually year over year

02:48:51   But just the software side of it is it really seems like there's a couple of final is in there that it's really becoming a compelling

02:48:57   product

02:48:59   And finally really the first time really becoming interesting for third-party apps

02:49:03   Yeah

02:49:04   That's you know

02:49:05   The the the hardware has been fairly decent on the watch since since long with the exception of the first one just being super slow

02:49:11   But but the software it was really like prohibitively

02:49:16   limited for third-party apps especially

02:49:19   until really until watchOS 3 and 4 at least and

02:49:23   watchOS 5 makes a number of

02:49:25   Seemingly small changes but changes that make or break certain uses like audio

02:49:30   So anyway, that's good to hear

02:49:33   It was actually a loaded question because I've I've played with the beta running on Marcos watches

02:49:38   They're a little behind the scenes in type for you. I actually totally cheated knew the answer that question before I asked

02:49:45   Yeah, I also knew the way suitcases have washed the laundry bags, but here we are

02:49:49   Like I said, there are numerous advantages to recording a podcast in the same room as opposed to two or three hundred miles apart Marco

02:49:57   Thank you so much. Do you?

02:49:59   Can thank you for tons of things this week, but taking the time out to do this is

02:50:04   Truly truly tremendous. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. It's always a joy. All right, my thanks to our sponsors

02:50:11   We had Squarespace where you can go to build a website. We had a way where you can buy

02:50:16   excellent luggage

02:50:19   We had trace Pontus who made the coffee that I finished over an hour ago and wished I had remembered to bring the pot in

02:50:25   Yes, I have three more pounds in the kitchen

02:50:28   So I think we're all right for at least a day so that I could go have more and last but not least

02:50:33   Mac Weldon makers of excellent daily essentials things like underwear t-shirts socks

02:50:41   a very stylish long-lasting and so easy to buy my thanks to all of them and of course

02:50:47   to Marco Arment

02:50:49   For his time. Thanks

02:50:51   All right. There we go. That was good. Yeah short for us

02:50:56   Yeah, it really was. That's kind of funny, that really was.