The Talk Show

171: ‘Prisoner’s Dilemma Multitasking’ With John Moltz


00:00:00   You believe that cubs are in the World Series again. Every goddamn year.

00:00:03   I know, isn't it? It's annoying.

00:00:05   It's the same shit every year.

00:00:07   It's getting, you know, as a sort of Mariners fan, it's getting pretty embarrassing.

00:00:15   You know it's bad when the cubs are in there.

00:00:18   Yeah, it's like, huh, well, okay, pretty soon it's just gonna be us.

00:00:28   it is the way i don't like baseball anymore

00:00:32   and what's with cleveland cleveland can't stop winning it's no fair

00:00:37   they win all the championships terrible yeah

00:00:41   it's rigged just like the election just like the election

00:00:48   the whole thing is right yep the system is flawed

00:00:51   how are you john i am fine and how are you good

00:00:55   I'm a little chilly. Yeah? What's it like there? What's it like there these days?

00:00:59   59. 58, 59.

00:01:00   That's not bad. Yeah, that's about what it is here.

00:01:02   Yeah. Can't complain.

00:01:04   Yeah. I'm in the basement though, so it's cold. It's cooler down here.

00:01:08   My office is chilly. It is. I actually, I've, you know, I'm a very delicate individual and I'm very

00:01:16   sensitive to minor fluctuations in temperature. But I'm at the north end of the house, and so,

00:01:24   I get that my office gets, does not get the sunlight. And I, that makes the difference,

00:01:31   you know? Like what's temperate throughout the main floor of the house is a little chilly in here.

00:01:36   Yeah. Well, I podcast in the basement, and usually it's about the same all year round,

00:01:41   I would say. My office is up in the, what is, was the attic, it's a reef, it's a finished attic,

00:01:48   and it is boiling hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. And there's like, there's

00:01:55   like three days on either, you know, where those two meet where it's decent. So, kind of screwed.

00:02:01   It's a great place, you know, the boiling hot part is a particularly nice place to have a

00:02:06   bunch of computer equipment. [Laughter]

00:02:07   Pete: That's very good. It's good for the equipment, really.

00:02:11   Jared; Yeah, yeah.

00:02:12   Pete; Everything I know about computers is that it's very, very good for them to be…

00:02:16   And to be subject to, you know, wild temperature changes. Wires and things love that. So I'm

00:02:29   looking forward to Thursday.

00:02:31   Yeah. I will be flying out tomorrow. We're recording on Tuesday. The show will air. I'll

00:02:36   probably post it from an airplane tomorrow. I'm sure that'll work perfectly well.

00:02:41   [laughter]

00:02:42   (laughing)

00:02:44   And then I will be there on Thursday.

00:02:50   I am excited.

00:02:51   I feel like this is a good one

00:02:53   because we don't know what the hell is going on, really.

00:02:55   - No, I mean, not really.

00:02:57   I mean, there have been some rumors

00:02:59   about the new MacBook Pro.

00:03:01   - Right.

00:03:02   - That's the only thing I know about, though.

00:03:03   - Yeah, and I feel like everything else is sort of unknown.

00:03:07   Like, then there's rumors that there's gonna be another new,

00:03:09   we'll get to all this in detail,

00:03:11   but there's rumors that there's gonna be another,

00:03:13   in addition to the MacBook Pro,

00:03:14   a 13-inch MacBook of some sort,

00:03:17   whether this is an updated Air,

00:03:19   whether it's a new 13-inch regular Retina MacBook,

00:03:23   which makes no sense to me, we don't know.

00:03:26   - Yeah.

00:03:28   But I'm in the market.

00:03:31   - Are you really?

00:03:32   - Yeah, 'cause my MacBook Air is a 2012.

00:03:36   - Ooh, so that's good timing.

00:03:38   Yeah, so this is really exciting for you.

00:03:40   Yeah. I mean, I was thinking that maybe I would get this year's MacBook when that came

00:03:43   out in the spring, but that wasn't quite a big enough update.

00:03:50   It's a beautiful little machine. It's so nice. It really is the most beautiful Mac that Apple's

00:03:55   ever made. Every time I see it in the Apple Store, and I just, you know, I told you, I

00:03:59   told you, if you listen to the show, but whoever the guests were in the last few weeks, that

00:04:04   we had a weird problem with Amy's Apple Watch where the back came off and we went and I

00:04:09   I picked it up.

00:04:10   So I've been in the Apple store a lot recently,

00:04:12   and every time I walk by, I always think,

00:04:14   "God damn, that's a nice little laptop."

00:04:16   - Yeah, yeah.

00:04:17   And do you, what are your feelings on the keyboard?

00:04:22   - I could live with it.

00:04:24   I haven't spent significant time,

00:04:27   like I never got like a review unit of the regular MacBook,

00:04:31   so I've never spent like a significant amount of time on it,

00:04:33   but I'm sure that I could get used to it.

00:04:35   Anything that has actual physical keys,

00:04:37   I'm sure I could get used to.

00:04:38   I think in the hypothetical future where they go to some kind of touchscreen like surface

00:04:43   for the keyboard to make it even thinner, I might have a serious problem then.

00:04:48   But yeah, I would have a problem with that too.

00:04:50   Up until that point, I'm sure I could get used to it.

00:04:53   Because I like I do like and it's you know, it's funny because I'd like a real old fashioned

00:04:57   mechanical clicky keyboard.

00:04:58   Right.

00:04:59   But that's just what I prefer.

00:05:00   So anything less than that is, it's, you know, fine.

00:05:04   It's not what I prefer, but it's fine.

00:05:06   Yeah.

00:05:07   Yeah, I think for me, the baseline is some motion.

00:05:11   But glass is not really gonna cut it.

00:05:15   I was at... I'm trying to remember, I think this was when

00:05:19   Hank broke the screen of his

00:05:23   iPhone 6s? Yeah, 6s.

00:05:27   Over the summer we went in there, and the genius that was helping me

00:05:31   was typing on her iPad, and just like...

00:05:35   it would look like 65, 70 words a minute.

00:05:38   I mean, it was crazy.

00:05:39   (laughing)

00:05:40   I was like, how do you do that?

00:05:43   But I guess maybe people now, the kids these days,

00:05:47   maybe coming up learning how to type on glass screens

00:05:51   much faster than we can.

00:05:52   - Yeah, I've spoken to some people at Apple who've said,

00:05:55   and this was from a couple years ago, that yes,

00:05:58   that, and in the interim, since I've had this discussion

00:06:03   with people at Apple, they've come out

00:06:04   with the smart keyboard cover for iPad,

00:06:07   which has physical moving keys.

00:06:09   So it's not like they're saying,

00:06:10   "Hey, we don't need physical moving keys."

00:06:12   But that, you know, don't under,

00:06:15   if you say you can't type on an iPad,

00:06:17   don't assume that that means everybody can't type.

00:06:19   And the younger it goes, the more natural it seems

00:06:23   because it's just what they grew up with.

00:06:24   - Yeah, yeah.

00:06:26   And you're missing a thumb, right?

00:06:28   - Yes, that is correct.

00:06:29   - So I would think that's even harder.

00:06:30   (laughing)

00:06:32   - In my left, my left.

00:06:34   I mean, it's not missing, it's there,

00:06:35   it's just kind of hanging on by like a thread, right?

00:06:37   - Exactly.

00:06:39   - You know where it is.

00:06:40   - I do have, I did suffer an injury

00:06:44   and I don't know what happened.

00:06:45   My left ring finger feels like the first knuckle.

00:06:50   We used to call them dummies.

00:06:54   When I used to play high school basketball,

00:06:56   like you'd get a dummied finger.

00:06:58   So your finger wasn't broken, didn't have a broken bone.

00:07:00   - Oh, you couldn't feel it?

00:07:01   No, but you know, like, in basketball it happens all the time if you catch a ball the wrong

00:07:06   way, but it would swell up at the knuckle real bad.

00:07:10   Okay.

00:07:11   And you wouldn't be able to flex it all the way. But you know, you could tape it up and

00:07:15   it'd be alright. It's just one of those little things where you get old and stuff doesn't

00:07:20   heal quickly. I don't know what happened. I know it was over summer, though, because

00:07:25   I know that I noticed it when my family was on vacation. So this was like early August,

00:07:30   and I was like, I don't know what the heck I did.

00:07:32   Like if I jammed it on a door or what the heck I did,

00:07:34   but I noticed I woke up one morning

00:07:35   and my left index finger was swollen and hurt.

00:07:38   Like swollen enough that I wouldn't be able

00:07:40   to get my wedding ring off.

00:07:42   I still can't, and now it's the end of October.

00:07:45   I still can't, and it still hurts a little bit.

00:07:48   And it just seems like the sort of thing

00:07:50   like when I was like 17,

00:07:51   it would be injured 10 times worse,

00:07:54   like a golf ball swollen,

00:07:56   and three days later it would be back to normal.

00:07:59   You realize you're gonna be trouble in trouble if Amy leaves you

00:08:03   Get the jaws of life out

00:08:07   You realize you do realize I realize as as I rock it through

00:08:12   In the deeper into my 40s that when you're a young person you really are sort of you're you've sort of like halfway to like

00:08:18   being like Wolverine

00:08:20   Appreciated at the time, but as you get older you definitely don't appreciate it

00:08:28   Yeah, yeah, I find I found that I like I'm you know a bit older than you but but I

00:08:32   Bruise I get these bruises now and they don't they just like stick around for like a month

00:08:38   They don't hurt or anything, but it's like where did how did that happen? And why won't it go away? I

00:08:44   Have the same thing. I will occasionally pick up a bruise like on the back of my elbow, right?

00:08:50   And it's like I don't remember it hitting anything. I don't think it happens. Well, I'm asleep

00:08:56   [Laughter]

00:08:57   Pete: And they don't go away like they used to.

00:09:00   Jared; I roll over too fast and boom, I got a bruise.

00:09:03   Pete; So, what do we know? All right, so what's coming at this event?

00:09:09   Jared; Yeah.

00:09:10   Pete; The MacBook Pro is the guarantee.

00:09:13   Jared; Right.

00:09:14   Pete; That's like a-

00:09:15   Jared; That's the one thing that we've seen some pictures of and there have been fairly

00:09:19   hefty rumors about.

00:09:20   Pete; Yeah, Germin, I think, maybe gets credit for breaking it first with this,

00:09:24   They're replacing the F keys above the keyboard

00:09:27   with some kind of touch screen.

00:09:30   I don't know.

00:09:31   At some point, somebody says it's an OLED.

00:09:33   I don't know if that's true or not.

00:09:35   That'll tie into the next discussion about the-- what

00:09:41   do you call it-- the Google Pixel that I got last week.

00:09:45   Because I've got to tell you, I still-- even though people say

00:09:47   they like this pixel display, I still

00:09:48   don't like the colors on an OLED display.

00:09:50   But that's neither here nor there right now.

00:09:54   Some kind of touch screen strip and the idea would be that it's therefore because it's software you could you know Photoshop could put like a bunch of tools up there or presumably you know maybe like you know a word processor could put style stuff you could just tap like a bold button or something like that.

00:10:15   - Yeah.

00:10:16   - I don't know.

00:10:17   So 13 inch, 15 inch MacBook Pros.

00:10:20   They're supposed to be thinner.

00:10:21   And then there is a case leaking.

00:10:23   Did you see this thing?

00:10:24   There's somebody in China leaked a,

00:10:27   like the top of the case or the unibody enclosure.

00:10:33   And I think, according to the leak,

00:10:37   it's like, it's got four USB-C ports,

00:10:40   like two on each side.

00:10:42   Still has a headphone jack.

00:10:43   And then that's it.

00:10:44   So no more USB-A ports.

00:10:46   USB-A is the traditional big sort of rectangular USB port

00:10:53   that we've known and loved since the iMac in 1998.

00:10:57   So no more USB-A ports and no more SD card slot, no more--

00:11:06   what else does the MacBook Pro have?

00:11:08   I think it has HDMI, right?

00:11:11   I think HDMI is the one that I'm always

00:11:13   trying to plug something into it, and it doesn't work. So that's the rumor. It's probably true,

00:11:23   I bet, because it sounds right to me. Yeah. Yeah, that makes some sense. And,

00:11:30   you know, I've been using a MacBook Air for four years, but if it's thinner—I might go back to the

00:11:38   13-inch MacBook Pro. Yeah, HDMI, there it is on the current one. Power to USB. The heck

00:11:48   is that one? So I think, I don't know how, this is that some of the stuff that I, I

00:11:55   feel like I'm getting old and I'm out of date on some of this stuff. So, uh, USB-C, I

00:12:01   know based on the retina MacBook that you can use USB-C for lots of stuff. So

00:12:07   So the Retina MacBook has one port.

00:12:10   It's USB-C. It uses it to charge,

00:12:12   and it uses it to connect to a display,

00:12:15   and it uses it--

00:12:16   because you can do a Thunderbolt over USB-C.

00:12:21   And it uses it, obviously, to connect to any USB peripherals

00:12:24   you want it to connect to.

00:12:27   So if this new MacBook Pro only has four USB-C ports,

00:12:32   then if you wanted to plug it into power

00:12:35   plug in a peripheral and plug it into a display, would you be able to use any of these ports

00:12:39   to plug the display into, or is there going to be like, well, this is the, you know, you

00:12:42   got to use this top left one for the display?

00:12:44   Oh, that's a good question. I would think you'd be able to use any of them, but I don't,

00:12:48   you know, in the past that some of them, there have been differences in the USB ports, like

00:12:52   some of them have different, have had different power output.

00:12:56   Yeah, I don't know. And how would they differentiate? It seems very un-Apple-like to, to require

00:13:02   you to remember that these four points that look the same actually are different? I mean,

00:13:08   I guess what they could do is print like a little, I don't know, some kind of little

00:13:13   icon next to the one that, you know, but that doesn't seem right. Seems like you should

00:13:17   be able to use any of them for anything, but I don't know if electronically that works

00:13:20   out. I don't know.

00:13:22   Yeah. I mean, I guess that's, yeah, and that's just part of the, is Apple doing the lightning,

00:13:31   or not the lightning the um what's the line does usbc have uh the thunderbolt in it yes

00:13:46   yeah but i mean but is that apple's doing or is that the usbc standard i think it's the usbc

00:13:51   standard okay i think it has some something to do with intel okay well then then i don't know why

00:13:56   they wouldn't all have it. Right. It sounds like a good update to me. I don't know. I mean, and

00:14:07   suppose, you know, the whole thing is going to be thinner. Presumably one of the reasons they're

00:14:11   getting rid of USB-A is just because by today's standards that's a big fat port. I'm not saying

00:14:19   that the device is actually, you know, the device is obviously not going to be, no matter how thin

00:14:23   it is it's not going to be so thin that they couldn't put a USB a port in but I

00:14:28   think you know you could I think it's probably gonna be thin enough where USB

00:14:31   a would look ugly yeah and you know we all know the most important thing when

00:14:36   you buy a computer is making sure that the ports look nice VGA is there gonna

00:14:42   be a VGA port there will be a dongle for big I've always been a little bit the

00:14:50   VGA port? I've even used it. I have, you know, I still use some standalone cameras

00:14:56   so I, you know, I have SD cards and I have used it, you know, the SD, the SD slot on

00:15:02   my MacBook Pro on occasion. I've always thought it was a little surprising that

00:15:06   Apple put an SD card slot in the MacBook Pro just because, and it's thin, you

00:15:12   know, and I would presume that they could do it on the new one by, you know, it's

00:15:15   certainly a pretty thin little slot. It just seems like an Apple-like thing to

00:15:19   do though it seems to me like if you want to use a card you know they want

00:15:22   you to be punished by having to use a dongle and I say that I'm being a little

00:15:27   facetious but it's just you know Apple's you know really takes the minimalism on

00:15:32   these ports to an extreme and adding a SD card slot built in is sort of unusual

00:15:37   for Apple yeah yeah still on the iMac too yeah I use that too I've already

00:15:44   said that's my favorite game to play on the iMac is plugging yeah well that's

00:15:47   - That's the thing, yeah, I mean, on the back of the device,

00:15:50   it becomes very difficult.

00:15:52   - I've gotten very good at it.

00:15:53   I've gotten very good at sitting at my desk,

00:15:55   not being able to see, get an SD card into the slot

00:15:59   in the back.

00:16:00   - I can't even plug USB things into the back of mine.

00:16:04   - I tweeted that, and a bunch of people,

00:16:06   I hadn't thought about this, 'cause I never owned

00:16:07   one of the side-loading iMacs.

00:16:10   You know, before they got the real thin sides,

00:16:13   the slot was on the side, which is, in theory--

00:16:17   SD card was? Yeah. Oh really? Okay. Yeah, I missed that. They also had CD slots over there though,

00:16:22   and so apparently a real common problem. It was a very, I mean, I wouldn't believe how many

00:16:28   tweets I got. The SD card and the CD slot? Yep. And everybody played along with my idea that this

00:16:32   was a great game and they were like, "It's a good way to lose all of your lives."

00:16:37   You just tuck it in and the second you let go of it and like, you know, get it all the way in,

00:16:45   you realize what you've done. Oh god, that's terrible. And then you got to fish it out. Yeah.

00:16:50   Better have better to have it on the back.

00:16:52   So yeah, MacBook Pro. And, and then everything else is just

00:17:05   up and maybe, yeah, so there is there's rumors of a new 13 inch model. And this is to me where

00:17:14   being you earn our pundit points because the you know macbook pro is a little self-explanatory but

00:17:19   what is this 13-inch macbook pro some people are calling it a macbook air ming chi quo of of kgi

00:17:25   securities or whatever his company is called the analyst who gets he gets a lot wrong actually uh

00:17:31   philip emmer de whit has an interesting scorecard for his like last three years of predictions but

00:17:36   his iphone stuff is usually spot on yeah um usually he just gets wrong the timing right

00:17:41   He's not that great on timing.

00:17:43   And he's like every--

00:17:45   he's really not an Apple analyst so much as an Apple Asian

00:17:51   supply chain analyst.

00:17:53   His sources are very clearly-- it's almost transparent

00:17:55   that his sources are from the Asian supply chain.

00:17:57   So he doesn't get things like product marketing,

00:18:00   because the Asian supply chain doesn't

00:18:01   know about stuff like that.

00:18:03   What's the name of the device going to be?

00:18:05   They don't know that until the last minute,

00:18:06   and they start printing it on the devices.

00:18:10   And they, you know, pricing and stuff like that,

00:18:14   nobody knows, pricing is like the top held secret at Apple.

00:18:17   Like, there's only, you know, very seldom leaks

00:18:19   because I don't think it ever really leaves, you know,

00:18:22   from in between like Schiller's group and Tim Cook,

00:18:26   you know, and, well, and surely Jeff Williams,

00:18:29   but, you know, it's like a top people type thing.

00:18:32   - Right, and whoever's making the webpage.

00:18:36   So he's been calling it a MacBook Air for a while,

00:18:39   a new 13 inch, or maybe he's been calling it a MacBook,

00:18:41   I don't know.

00:18:42   But the idea that they would make a 13 inch MacBook

00:18:47   like the 12 inch MacBook makes no sense to me.

00:18:49   Like 13 inch--

00:18:50   - No, I don't understand that either.

00:18:52   - You need like two inches to have a separation

00:18:56   that makes sense, you know, like, oh yeah, I can see.

00:18:59   This 13 inch is sort of like regular size

00:19:02   and the 15 inch is big.

00:19:04   this oh and this 11 inches tiny 12 and 13 are way too close to each other so

00:19:08   that doesn't make any sense to me plus it doesn't seem like I mean it seems

00:19:12   like it's a little early to bring out a new macbook right because the the

00:19:17   current ones only came out I think in April right right right so if so so then

00:19:23   the speculation is that it's an error right and you know some people have

00:19:30   specula. Nobody seems to be willing to commit. Not Ming-Chi Kuo, not German.

00:19:35   Nobody is saying what kind of display this thing has, which is

00:19:38   inconspicuous to me because it would, like, so they're just not mentioning it.

00:19:42   Meaning, does it have a retina display? Which is certainly what people who are

00:19:47   hoping for a retina MacBook Air are hoping for. If it doesn't have a retina

00:19:51   display, is the display improved at all versus the existing MacBook Airs?

00:19:56   because there's things I think like I don't think that I forget there's certain technical things

00:20:01   even if it doesn't go retina that could be improved in the the macbook air display like I think like

00:20:07   ips and stuff like that okay um I don't know nobody knows that's why it's exciting uh the idea

00:20:18   I guess is that if it needs it I'm a little surprised that they're updating it all I've

00:20:22   been under the assumption that the MacBook Air is only hanging around to occupy price points,

00:20:28   like that $899 that the 11-inch started at, and the $999 that 13-inch started at,

00:20:33   and that there's no other reason for those devices to exist, and so that Apple would just keep selling

00:20:38   the old ones as long as people keep buying them. Exactly like the... There's still that old MacBook

00:20:46   Pro that has a spinning CD drive that Apple sells. They don't really advertise it. They

00:20:53   don't have it out in the Apple stores, but if you go online, you can still buy it.

00:20:57   That has a CD drive even? I think so.

00:21:01   Let me check this. It definitely has a spinning hard drive.

00:21:04   Maybe it has a spinning hard drive. Maybe it doesn't have it.

00:21:06   Yeah, I think it's just a spinning hard drive.

00:21:07   All right. Doesn't have it.

00:21:08   No, it does not have a CD drive.

00:21:10   All right, whatever.

00:21:11   Yeah.

00:21:11   Does it have a floppy drive? Or a zip drive? It has a zip drive.

00:21:15   It's got swappable bays. But you can take the zip drive out and put a jazz drive in.

00:21:23   Is that what that works? Yeah, yeah.

00:21:27   I got one of those upstairs. A jazz drive? No, I don't know. I don't have the drive. I have an old,

00:21:36   our pal Jim Ray gave me his old, God, what is it? I think it's a Wall Street.

00:21:42   um, what was it called? PowerBook.

00:21:46   Oh yeah?

00:21:47   With the, with the thing that you could pop out, I think.

00:21:50   Does, what's, did that one have that? Anyway, it's a really old, I have a really old PowerBook

00:21:55   upstairs.

00:21:56   Well, anyway, Apple still sells some sort of ancient MacBook Pro that I can't even remember

00:22:04   the details of that is only there because people keep buying it.

00:22:07   Yeah.

00:22:10   I mean, I would think that now is the time just to be going all retina, and they would

00:22:20   sweep away that one and then the other, but these rumors seem to indicate maybe not.

00:22:26   There we go. It's at the bottom of the MacBook Pro page, and it costs $1,099.

00:22:33   Right.

00:22:34   - Right.

00:22:35   - So it has a 500 gigabyte 5,400 RPM hard drive.

00:22:40   So that's what I was thinking of.

00:22:42   - Yeah.

00:22:42   - I guess it's like some of these Apple products

00:22:46   seem to me like products from the past.

00:22:49   I can't imagine, like I splurged when I bought,

00:22:54   my iMac is almost two years old now,

00:22:56   but that was the last device I've bought

00:23:00   where I was maybe possibly even thinking vaguely

00:23:03   I might still get a spinning hard drive.

00:23:04   I thought maybe about, 'cause the upgrade

00:23:07   to get like a full one terabyte SSD

00:23:10   was seriously expensive.

00:23:12   But of course I love to spend money, so I just got it.

00:23:16   But it was the last time I even hesitated for a second

00:23:19   and thought maybe I should just get the Fusion drive.

00:23:22   So I, you know, and I realized as I bought this iMac

00:23:26   that it'll be the last, that whatever the previous iMac

00:23:29   I bought was the last, you know,

00:23:30   I'm never gonna buy a spinning hard disk.

00:23:32   - Yeah. - Inside a Mac again.

00:23:35   - Yeah. - Maybe on external drive,

00:23:37   just for backup or whatever, but not inside.

00:23:40   And I don't think I'd ever buy,

00:23:41   personally I would never buy another device

00:23:44   without a redness screen.

00:23:45   - Mm-hmm, but yeah, and so that's the other thing.

00:23:48   The hard drive, I would think that now

00:23:50   would be also a good time.

00:23:51   They probably, well, this they probably won't do,

00:23:53   'cause it seems like it's too ubiquitous

00:23:55   across several different product lines,

00:23:57   but to get rid of, someday soon,

00:23:59   they need to get rid of the spinning drives.

00:24:01   Fusion's not bad. Fusion works fine, but the solely spinning drives are… I would

00:24:07   never buy one.

00:24:08   Right. So, the conundrum I see. I thought that maybe the Air would just stay as it is

00:24:15   with its crummy non-retina displays and just sit at those price points until the Retina

00:24:21   MacBook could be sold for like $9.99, and then they would just get rid of the… The

00:24:25   Airs would just silently disappear, and there'd be maybe at whatever point in the future this

00:24:30   a year-old retina MacBook that sells at $999 or $899 even, and a newer retina MacBook with

00:24:38   better specs that sells at $1299 or $1399, you know. That's what I expected. But it's,

00:24:46   you know, based on these rumors, it seems as though the air might be sticking around. But

00:24:51   again, is it going to be called a MacBook Air? I don't know.

00:24:54   Yeah, the MacBook starts at $1,300. So it's still a little pricey to... I mean, it doesn't seem like

00:25:02   they could drop, just summarily take $300 off. Right, and it only came out in April, so that's

00:25:09   just way, you know, six months later, it's highly unusual for Apple to drop a product by 30% in price

00:25:16   or whatever it is. It's about 30%. It just doesn't seem possible. But then what price would this

00:25:23   MacBook B. This is the problem I see is if it's a retina MacBook Air, what price

00:25:29   does it start at? Because if it starts at $999, that seems like a great deal and it

00:25:35   doesn't seem preposterous given that there are competing products from other

00:25:38   companies, you know, that have roughly the similar specs. Like, I think, like, let's

00:25:42   just say like a Microsoft Surface which has, you know, I think roughly air quality,

00:25:49   CPU from Intel and it has a retina screen and it's, you know, has a starting price under

00:25:55   a thousand dollars. So it's not like I'm, you know, again, whenever you're on the show,

00:26:00   we often play, "Let's spend Tim Cook's money." We're not just saying, "Let's make it $999,"

00:26:06   you know, because we're not based on reality. It seems like based on other laptops from

00:26:12   other companies that you could do a retina screen on a $9.99 device.

00:26:19   But if they did that, who buys, you know, to me that makes the regular MacBook at $12.99

00:26:27   look too expensive.

00:26:29   Yep, it sure does.

00:26:32   Especially since it's slower.

00:26:33   And I realize it's slower because to be that thin it has a fanless design, and so it's

00:26:38   got like this entirely different, uses an entirely different chipset from Intel that

00:26:44   is designed so that it could run fanlessly and never overheat. And the Air uses like

00:26:49   this mid-range chipset that is low power compared to like the Pros, but not so low power that

00:26:54   it doesn't need a fan.

00:26:56   Yeah. I don't know. I mean, they have spent, I mean, there's been a number of years where

00:27:05   they've, their entry laptop was $9.99, right? And somewhere it was even more than that, I think.

00:27:11   But that was a long time ago. And they are in an era where it's increasingly hard to sell computers.

00:27:21   So, moving your starting price point up 100 bucks, I don't know if that's gonna, I mean,

00:27:31   that's not going to be great if you want to move units. And there's compounded with this is another

00:27:38   rumor about Thursday's update to the Mac line that the 11-inch air is going to just quote go away.

00:27:44   Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if... No, I wouldn't either. If it did, if it vanished, but I also

00:27:51   wouldn't be surprised if it sort of goes the way of that 13-inch ancient MacBook Pro that we were

00:27:56   talking about where it goes away in terms of it really is never going to be updated again,

00:28:01   not even like a minor spec refresh, but that they'll keep selling it as is and not even

00:28:07   really promote it, but it's there. You can go on a website.

00:28:10   For a budget.

00:28:11   Yeah, maybe even drop the price to $799 or something.

00:28:14   Yeah, that would be really kind of amazing. Because I don't think they've ever been that low.

00:28:20   No, I think $899 is the lowest Apple's ever sold a Mac for, and that's been the 11-inch

00:28:25   error for a while.

00:28:26   A laptop. Right. Not counting something incomplete like the Mac Mini. Like a complete laptop system

00:28:33   that you can just open the box and use. It's not missing, you know, it has no RAM. It has no RAM

00:28:40   at all. It doesn't have a battery. You gotta plug it in everywhere you go. And plug in an external

00:28:54   hard drive. Do you remember years ago there was a rumor about a crank-powered Apple laptop?

00:29:01   [Laughter]

00:29:02   No, I don't think so. Like, the one laptop for a child thing.

00:29:04   That was like, back in the 90s, like, after Jobs had come back, and I think after the iMac

00:29:12   had been introduced, there were these rumors coming around about the iBook and what it was

00:29:18   going to be. And one of them was, like, one of the crazier rumor sites was that it was

00:29:25   going to be—it was going to be crank-powered. And what a boon that would be to people, because,

00:29:33   you know, for all those instances where you're running shy, like if you were camping.

00:29:37   Kevin Anthony 6.00 Such a common scenario.

00:29:40   Matthew 4.00 Right, right. And you needed to use your

00:29:42   laptop. You could just crank-power it. Kevin Anthony

00:29:45   So I know that there are build-to-order options that can make these prices higher, but right now,

00:29:51   looking at the "Buy a MacBook Air" page, there's two 11-inch Air standard configs, $899, and then

00:29:57   you're up $200 to $1099, and you get double the storage. You go from $128 to $256, and it doesn't

00:30:08   look like you get anything else. That's about the only difference. And then there's a 13-inch

00:30:14   MacBook Air that starts at $999. And one that's $200 higher at $1,199. Call it $1,200.

00:30:22   And I think the only difference there is double the storage from 128 flash to 256.

00:30:31   Jared: Yeah. And it's weird to me that the 13-inch comes in 8 gigs, comes with 8 gigs of memory and

00:30:37   11 does not.

00:30:39   Pete: Right. I don't know. I guess -

00:30:41   Jared; So, if you hit select, though, you can configure that.

00:30:43   Yeah, you can definitely configure it.

00:30:45   So you could up it.

00:30:46   And you can significantly upgrade the CPU.

00:30:48   You can go from a 1.6 Core i5 to a 2.2 Core i7.

00:30:54   And I don't stay up to date on all that stuff anymore.

00:30:57   But I mean, I know enough about the basic gist

00:30:59   that going from Core i5 to Core i7

00:31:01   is a pretty significant performance upgrade.

00:31:05   But they're not the standard configs.

00:31:07   And I feel like the standard configs really matter.

00:31:11   But what I'm guessing, if I had to guess what Apple is going to do, is I'm thinking that

00:31:16   the entry-level 13-inch MacBook Air will still not have a retina screen.

00:31:22   And I guess if it's true that they're getting rid of the 11, maybe the 13-inch MacBook Air

00:31:27   will now start at $899, but that it's a non-retina screen.

00:31:31   And that if you want to get retina, you're going to have to pay at least like $1,200.

00:31:37   But it still seems weird to me that you could pay

00:31:39   like around $1200 to get a 13 inch MacBook Air

00:31:43   with all these ports and then there's the 12 inch

00:31:47   retina MacBook at the $1300 starting price.

00:31:51   It just seems weird to me that they're doing

00:31:55   a new retina MacBook Air.

00:31:58   The other thing I could see is that they upgrade,

00:32:01   this is the other thing I could see,

00:32:02   is they upgrade the 13 inch MacBook Air

00:32:04   whatever the latest core i7 whatever mobile chipset is from Intel, but they don't even

00:32:11   really talk about it on Thursday. They just upgrade it on the website and it still doesn't

00:32:16   have a retina screen and anybody who wants to bitch about the fact that it doesn't have a

00:32:20   retina screen, you know, buy a different MacBook. Yeah, that seems to make the most sense to me.

00:32:27   Because I can't imagine them going to the trouble putting a retina into

00:32:33   the air at this point. Right, and I feel like you can argue well there's other comp, you know,

00:32:38   the argument that, hey, like the Microsoft Surface has a retina caliber screen and it's only $999 or

00:32:44   whatever and, you know, Dell makes these things with, you know, whatever they call retina screens

00:32:48   and they're cheap and it's like, you know, Apple's never competed at the low end on price and if

00:32:53   anybody gets the short end of the stick from Apple it's absolutely the people who are more

00:32:57   budget-conscious. That's just the way the company is.

00:33:00   Yeah. You know, the company is optimized,

00:33:03   in my opinion, for people who are looking for the best products, not

00:33:07   not the lowest-priced products. Yeah.

00:33:11   Because the other thing, too, is in addition to

00:33:15   just the fact that the regular retina MacBook

00:33:20   is relatively new, it's clearly what Apple thinks the future of laptops are,

00:33:24   there's also just the simple fact that they gave it the name "Macbook," right? It's like,

00:33:29   it's not like we're reading into, it's not like it's hard to read into that by calling it just

00:33:35   plain MacBook with no adjective, that Apple is saying, you know, maybe not now, but soon,

00:33:40   this is the standard, this is what you, this is what the standard Apple laptop is.

00:33:43   Yeah. And it really is weird to have ones called Air that are thicker and heavier.

00:33:52   Like, it makes no sense.

00:33:53   Yeah, I mean, that just seems to be why it's obvious that it seemed obvious,

00:33:58   at least, that it was going away.

00:33:59   Right. So, it seems very strange that there's these rumors that it's sticking around.

00:34:04   Yeah. I mean, the other thing, it wouldn't be the first time that they have

00:34:07   updated a model that's only been out for like six months, because they did it with the iPad.

00:34:15   Yeah, they did that with the iPad 3.

00:34:18   3, right.

00:34:19   And then the iPad 4 came out like six months later, because iPad 3 was sort of thicker.

00:34:24   It was the first Retina one, I believe, right? Yeah.

00:34:27   Yeah.

00:34:27   I could see it. And again, with the PC stuff, it seems... I don't think that they're anywhere

00:34:35   near as constrained component-wise as they are with, especially the iPhone, but probably the

00:34:45   iPad 2 where they kind of need to get their ducks in a row and say, "Look, we're going to have,

00:34:52   you know, 70 million of these system-on-a-chips for the next year for all these iPhone 7s,

00:34:56   and they're all going to be exactly the same." Like, I don't—I think with the MacBook,

00:35:01   you know, it's not anywhere near as, you know, we need to be making the exact same device for

00:35:06   an entire year just to break even on the manufacturing.

00:35:10   Mm-hmm. What I would like to see, which is probably not going to happen though,

00:35:16   is an 11-inch MacBook, a 13-inch MacBook. I kind of do too.

00:35:22   The fact that they've done a 12-inch now though, that doesn't seem like that's going to happen.

00:35:26   Yeah, and I'm not sure how the—I've never actually put the 12-inch next to the 11-inch MacBook Air

00:35:32   and just seen how they compare, because I think that the display does kind of go more edge-to-edge

00:35:38   edge on the MacBook. Like, footprint-wise, they might be very similar.

00:35:42   Yeah, I think they are. So I kind of feel... I mean, it seems like

00:35:46   I've only played with one a few times, but

00:35:50   it does not seem demonstrably larger than the 11-inch Air.

00:35:54   Let's see what the tech specs are. Yeah, we can find that out.

00:35:58   So it is 11 inches...

00:36:02   The MacBook is 11 inches wide and

00:36:06   seven four deep all right the 11 inch macbook air is 11.8 inches wide and 7.56 inches deep so on

00:36:16   depth it's almost the same but it is right it is a eight tenths of an inch narrower

00:36:22   the but the the 12 inch macbook is narrower oh yeah right yeah so the 12th the other way around

00:36:31   Yeah, I'm an idiot now

00:36:33   Yeah, so the 12-inch MacBook is actually smaller. Right? Well, but it's deeper, right? Yeah, but it'll just buy a little bit

00:36:40   All right, so maybe with that design maybe what it would be would be a 14-inch, you know

00:36:45   Maybe 12 12 inch and 14 inch 14 inch

00:36:48   I could see that and then that maybe the rumors are wrong calling it 13

00:36:51   I'm calling it 13 because maybe it's one of those things where it's like

00:36:55   I don't know 13 point something and

00:36:57   Apple's just going to it's close enough to 14 that Apple's gonna call it 14. Yeah

00:37:02   I

00:37:05   Could see that as a way to square this circle as well

00:37:08   If the truth is that there is no update to the MacBook Air and what they're going to do is unveil a big brother to

00:37:14   The 12-inch retina MacBook. I can see that

00:37:17   Maybe I'm gonna have a second USB C port

00:37:20   Yeah

00:37:24   And then you have laptops at 12, 13, 14, 15.

00:37:29   Yeah, and that kind of makes some sense.

00:37:31   Yeah, I suppose.

00:37:32   Although I don't know if it makes sense for the consumer ones to quote-unquote have larger displays than the pro ones. I don't know.

00:37:38   Well, I think some people seem to like that 13-inch Air.

00:37:46   I've always been, I mean, I always liked the smaller one,

00:37:50   but people who just want more screen real estate

00:37:55   or people who don't see so well.

00:37:59   - I used an 11-inch for years and many years,

00:38:02   at least five years, four or five years, four years, I think,

00:38:06   and loved it, but my thinking at the time was,

00:38:09   if you're gonna go small and thin,

00:38:11   go as small and thin as you can,

00:38:13   and get like, so I got a maxed out performance wise

00:38:15   11 inch air.

00:38:16   And then when I switched to a 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:38:19   two years ago, it was on the basis of,

00:38:21   if I'm gonna carry something thicker and heavier,

00:38:24   I might as well get the Pro and get the performance

00:38:28   rather than the 13 inch air.

00:38:31   - Yeah.

00:38:32   Yeah, and I'm in that quandary right now.

00:38:36   Because my, so my air is four years old,

00:38:41   then my iMac upstairs. Well, I have two machines upstairs that I use for this sort of media server

00:38:47   things. One is a 2010 MacBook Pro, and then the other one is a 2007 iMac. And those are definitely

00:38:55   showing their age. So I'm kind of like in that space where I was like, am I going to buy another,

00:39:01   like the low-end laptop just to carry around and do writing with, or am I going to split

00:39:07   the difference and get the Pro and do whatever power stuff I need to do on that.

00:39:13   Well, and the other thing too is that by all accounts, the Pro, I mean, of course the Pro

00:39:17   is getting thinner because that's what Apple does is they make stuff thinner. And when they finally

00:39:21   got, you know, the current models, when they are the first ones that you don't even have the option

00:39:26   of getting a spinning hard disk in because they're actually too thin, you have to use SSD. The new

00:39:31   ones are going to be even thinner. So they're getting as thin as the Airs used to be, even if

00:39:35   if they're not wedge-shaped.

00:39:36   I mean, they're certainly approaching that.

00:39:39   So the Air is getting squeezed out to me

00:39:41   in almost every way imaginable.

00:39:42   It's getting squeezed out on thinness by the pros.

00:39:45   It's getting squeezed out on retina screen by the MacBook.

00:39:50   The name MacBook tells you that it's

00:39:53   becoming the standard default laptop, everything

00:39:58   other than having a low price.

00:40:00   And if the whole point is to have a low price,

00:40:02   don't see how it's going to get a retinin screen just because it makes the

00:40:07   other ones look bad but yeah what people I guess the other thing we're talking

00:40:10   around is the fact that there are tens of thousands of people listening to this

00:40:15   podcast right now who desperately want Apple to just make a MacBook Air with a

00:40:19   retina screen it's probably true right but I really don't think it's gonna

00:40:25   happen it reminds me of the switch from the classic Mac OS to Mac OS 10 in a way

00:40:31   where what diehard Mac users really wanted was a new version of the Mac OS

00:40:37   that was, you know, just had the the better kernel. Just give us like a real

00:40:43   operating system with, you know, preemptive or not preemptive multitasking,

00:40:47   with, you know, real multitasking instead of cooperative. Oh yeah, preemptive is the

00:40:51   good multitasking. Cooperative multitasking was the euphemism.

00:40:55   right which is not very cooperative I would call it that prisoners dilemma

00:41:02   multi-tasker oh wait about right wait I can I me I'd this I could just use the

00:41:13   whole CPU but I'm just asked voluntarily not to hmm all Mac users really wanted

00:41:24   of going to jail. All Mac users really wanted was a new version of the Mac OS

00:41:29   that had a stable modern, you know, computer science perspective operating

00:41:34   system. And instead we got a thing. Everything was different and a lot

00:41:41   of stuff that used to be fast was suddenly very slow to make it fancy, etc.

00:41:44   And I sort of feel like Apple is doing the same thing with the

00:41:48   transition from the MacBook Air to the MacBook, which is that what many

00:41:53   people. I hear from them every time I bring it up on Daring Fireball or on this podcast. I hear it

00:41:57   all the time. I see it on Twitter all the time. People like the MacBook Air or love the MacBook

00:42:04   Air and the only thing they don't like about it is the non-retina screen. So why doesn't Apple just

00:42:10   put a retina screen in the MacBook Air and they'll just buy it? But I don't think it's where Apple

00:42:17   wants to take things. Yeah.

00:42:21   Well, what are you going to do? So what about, what about, uh, what about other, uh, other Macs?

00:42:29   Well, let's pick that up after this break. Let me take a break and tell you about,

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00:45:40   Jared: He gets the best.

00:45:44   Pete: Does your dog sleep, like, in the same spot all the time?

00:45:48   Jared. No, he has an old futon on the floor that he sleeps on, that he's supposed to

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00:45:57   My childhood dog, Chester, I loved that dog.

00:46:02   God damn, I loved that dog.

00:46:03   He was a mean little, like a poodle mix.

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00:46:10   I think like a Pekingese.

00:46:12   I think he was somewhere, we caught him.

00:46:15   - Yeah, they're mean.

00:46:16   Pekingese are mean.

00:46:17   Karen, my wife had Pekingese growing up,

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00:46:21   Look at you.

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00:46:28   But I'll tell you what, you couldn't tell him where to sleep.

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00:46:38   - So other Macs?

00:46:45   - Yeah, so this is where everybody seems to be fuzzy,

00:46:49   is what else are they going to announce?

00:46:53   So the Mac Pro hasn't been updated.

00:46:57   The last update, according to MacRumors, was July of 1998.

00:47:03   It was the last time that the Mac Pro was updated.

00:47:08   So it has been—

00:47:09   When it was called the Power Mac.

00:47:13   Eighteen years and counting.

00:47:18   And it's unchanged in 18 years.

00:47:20   Now that is unusually long for the Mac Pro.

00:47:24   - I think I have that one.

00:47:26   - I would say most people would agree

00:47:29   that the Mac Pro is due for an update.

00:47:32   - It was blue, right?

00:47:32   It was the blue one?

00:47:34   Yeah.

00:47:35   - There are no rumors of a Mac Pro update,

00:47:40   but the Mac Pro is famously,

00:47:44   it's made in America or manufactured in America.

00:47:48   So it's a completely different supply chain.

00:47:50   So any, you know, and I can't help but think that--

00:47:52   - They must be churning out like five of them a quarter now.

00:47:55   (both laughing)

00:47:57   - Very busy, it's a very busy operation.

00:47:59   Like the easiest job in the entire company.

00:48:04   Easiest job in the entire company.

00:48:05   - It's like one guy.

00:48:08   - Imagine if it's fully stocked up.

00:48:09   - Does all the soldering himself?

00:48:12   - Just worn grooves on the desk

00:48:15   from where his feet go up every day.

00:48:17   (laughing)

00:48:20   - He's all caught up on Westworld.

00:48:26   - Imagine then the phone rings.

00:48:29   It's Tim Cook.

00:48:32   What?

00:48:33   - An update?

00:48:36   Oh no.

00:48:37   - And all of a sudden as the phone rings

00:48:39   he hears like a truck backing up with parts.

00:48:42   It's all over.

00:48:46   I would not be surprised.

00:48:48   I have absolutely no inside info.

00:48:50   Nobody has said a damn word to me about any Mac Pros.

00:48:54   I just, common sense says to me

00:48:56   that they've either gotta update it soon

00:48:58   or they've gotta just officially say, you know.

00:49:01   - We're not making it anymore.

00:49:02   - We're not making it anymore.

00:49:04   - Yeah.

00:49:05   - But it just seems like they need to have this device.

00:49:09   In my opinion.

00:49:10   - I mean, it's, yeah.

00:49:11   Although how many, I mean, they, you know,

00:49:14   they don't, probably don't sell that many.

00:49:16   They're crazy expensive, and they come with their own quirks.

00:49:21   - But that they-- - It's a great-looking device,

00:49:23   but-- - But I still think

00:49:24   that they really want to own, or not own,

00:49:28   I'm not saying that they own it solely,

00:49:30   but they want to be known as the leading computer maker

00:49:34   for the quote-unquote pro industry,

00:49:37   whether it's professional video people,

00:49:39   people who are editing movies,

00:49:41   people who are professional photographers,

00:49:46   who are working with 50 gigabyte raw files,

00:49:51   wherever you, whatever the problem,

00:49:55   developers, of course, I think even for their own use,

00:49:58   it's a useful device.

00:49:59   I mean, the iMac is pretty fast and has a nice display,

00:50:02   but developing software is still one of those things

00:50:07   where having the fastest CPU possible

00:50:09   definitely make your daily day-to-day life better. So I don't think that they—it just seems unusual

00:50:17   for me, and I don't think they need to ever touch the industrial design again. I shouldn't say ever,

00:50:23   but a Mac Pro that looks exactly like the black cylindrical thing that we know, but just has a

00:50:31   new GPU and CPU and you know all these modern ports like USB-C and etc etc just

00:50:41   seems like something Apple should sell so I wouldn't be surprised at all if

00:50:44   they have it ready to go on Thursday and we just haven't heard about it because

00:50:47   they were able to keep it secret because it's not going through the Asian supply

00:50:51   chain that looks like a sieve right yeah well I think I think it would be nice I

00:50:57   mean I hope they don't I I don't know I'm not in the market for one I'll

00:51:00   I'm never gonna be in the market for one, but I agree with that sentiment that it seems

00:51:07   like the kind of thing that they should keep making is sort of a, even if it's just like

00:51:11   putting a flag in the ground.

00:51:14   I think there's some speculation that people who follow these Intel chipsets, you know,

00:51:21   that maybe the timing isn't really quite right for a new Mac Pro because like the last update

00:51:27   to the Xeon line of pros and CPUs was, you know, like May or something like that.

00:51:32   So you'd think that maybe if they were going to do it, they would have done it in June.

00:51:36   And now they're sort of like only just a few months away from like the next one, what's

00:51:40   called like gravy train or something like that.

00:51:43   I don't think Apple is all that.

00:51:44   I think at this point when they've gone this far between updates to Mac Pros, I think if

00:51:49   they're six months late on the latest Xeon processors, so what?

00:51:56   I don't know that they're looking at keeping the Mac Pro within a couple of weeks of the Intel

00:52:02   cutting edge. I don't know, what do you think? Well, I mean, I think if you, it depends on what

00:52:09   else you're announcing with it, maybe, and if they're announcing it with new monitors, then

00:52:14   maybe that becomes the bigger story than whatever processor is in it. That's exactly where I was

00:52:22   I was headin' John.

00:52:23   So maybe the reason that they haven't updated the Mac Pro

00:52:27   in such an absurdly long time is that they really wanted

00:52:30   the quote unquote next Mac Pro to work with the next

00:52:34   Apple Cinema Display.

00:52:36   Apple hasn't even sold a display since June

00:52:38   since they discontinued the non-retina,

00:52:40   whatever they called it.

00:52:41   Another conspicuous absence from the Apple product lineup

00:52:46   is a retina pro display, whatever they wanna call it.

00:52:51   cinema display, 5K, whatever.

00:52:54   But something like the big iMac display

00:52:59   with retina resolution and the high color gamut range

00:53:03   and a simple, it just works,

00:53:06   just plug this thing into your Mac

00:53:08   and you don't have to worry about plugging

00:53:11   two or three cables in because you need two graphics cards

00:53:13   and it's stitched together or whatever.

00:53:16   Just solve all the problems of the bandwidth

00:53:18   of driving a 5K retina display.

00:53:21   you worry about it, Apple,

00:53:22   just give me a simple thing to plug in.

00:53:24   So maybe they were waiting for that,

00:53:26   and maybe they thought previously

00:53:28   that maybe they'd have something like that ready earlier,

00:53:31   but it all kind of needs to come together.

00:53:33   It seems to me like some of this stuff is a,

00:53:36   it all needs to come at once,

00:53:37   and that sort of has maybe been the main cause

00:53:41   of this unusual dearth of Mac updates, hardware updates.

00:53:46   That they kind of want to move to this world

00:53:49   there's USB-C ports that do Thunderbolt and that can be connected to a 5K cinema display,

00:53:54   but it all kind of needs to come at once. Maybe?

00:53:59   >> Yeah.

00:53:59   >> So I can see that coming up Thursday.

00:54:01   >> It seems like, I mean, that's kind of their thing, right? I mean, they don't,

00:54:05   where other companies are happy to introduce a technology and say, "Hey, now we have this."

00:54:11   Okay, yeah, you have that, but it doesn't work with everything else. Apple wants to make sure

00:54:16   that everything works, at least in general, works better together and creates a story

00:54:24   that tries to make that whole package compelling. So I think there's definitely

00:54:32   something to that argument.

00:54:34   Dave: It's also the case—I know a ton of people who connect their MacBook Pros to a display at

00:54:43   at their desk.

00:54:44   And that they-- so that at work, you

00:54:49   have a nice big display in front of you, maybe two displays.

00:54:52   If you keep your MacBook open on the side,

00:54:54   you could do it either way.

00:54:55   And then at the end of the day, you can just disconnect the thing

00:54:58   and take the MacBook Pro home with you,

00:55:00   and you just have the MacBook Pro.

00:55:01   I know a ton of people who work like that.

00:55:03   I know that here in Philly, my friends at HappyCog,

00:55:07   a great web development studio or web design studio,

00:55:09   they redesigned their whole office around that concept.

00:55:12   everybody's desk, all they have at their desk is a display.

00:55:16   And then everybody gets a MacBook Pro,

00:55:20   and that's how everybody works.

00:55:21   You don't even have to sit at the same spot every day.

00:55:23   You can just walk up to any open display and plug it in,

00:55:28   and you get power in a display.

00:55:30   Nobody wants, designers don't want to work

00:55:34   with non-retina displays anymore.

00:55:36   I mean, it actually is actually,

00:55:38   you can't design retina graphics without a retina display.

00:55:41   I mean, it's, you know, and developers, you know,

00:55:43   I know that they were talking about an ATP this week

00:55:45   where Casey List was talking about how he's trying

00:55:48   to design a retina iPhone app on a non-retina display,

00:55:52   and you end up, then you like run the app on your phone

00:55:55   and you realize there's all these graphics that are missing

00:55:57   'cause you couldn't even see 'em on your display, you know.

00:56:00   You really, it's, you know, you can do it technically

00:56:04   in the same way that you could do an illustration

00:56:08   with your eyes closed, right?

00:56:10   just may not turn out right. You don't have to wear your glasses. You can just take a

00:56:18   guess as to whether it's in focus.

00:56:20   And again, they'll be crazy. If they do come, they'll be crazy expensive.

00:56:26   Oh, well, I don't know about that.

00:56:28   Ah, I mean, I think, well, I don't know. They're way too expensive. I mean, I will not be buying

00:56:33   one.

00:56:34   What does the Retina 5K iMac start at? Let's see. Is that like $1,500?

00:56:40   That's exactly what I was going to say. $1,500.

00:56:42   27-inch iMac with Retina 5K display. Well, no, it's a little bit more expensive. That starts at $1,800.

00:56:49   Okay.

00:56:50   I would think that they could sell that display without the computer inside for, I don't know, maybe $1,200? I don't know.

00:56:59   But the old Apple 27-inch display was $999.

00:57:04   And it was kind of ridiculous about the end of its life that they were still selling it

00:57:08   at $999.

00:57:10   That is part of what makes this laughable.

00:57:13   I understand why Apple sets a price and then keeps the price for the entire product lifetime,

00:57:17   as opposed to Dell, which sort of...

00:57:20   Dell's computers are sort of like the stock market, where they get repriced every day

00:57:23   based on current fluctuations.

00:57:26   It's true, though.

00:57:27   It really is.

00:57:28   It's like you can come, you know, I mean, you can configure the exact same machine at Dell like a

00:57:33   week later and it's, you know, it's more like buying an airplane ticket. Like, well, if the

00:57:37   plane's filled up— And lots of sales from other, like, the, when I bought my kid a PC laptop a few,

00:57:45   couple years ago for Christmas and, yeah, like navigating that whole thing. Like, well, it's,

00:57:50   you know, normally placed with this, but this, you know, you get this new coupon sale that we have.

00:57:53   Okay, great. So, I got, you know, I got, you know, it's, you know, it's ostensibly the price was like

00:58:01   $8.50 and I got it for $7.50 or something like that. I mean, it's like, Apple would never do that.

00:58:06   [Laughter]

00:58:08   You got a coupon on a retina display. Type in this code at the end.

00:58:21   I don't know if I should tell this story or not. I guess I will.

00:58:24   I'll tell you, it was one of the worst things I ever, worst I ever felt about myself in my life.

00:58:28   I was in college, and it was the middle of the day, and there's, I forget, I can't, I think

00:58:36   I actually forget the name of the student union, even though I spent like

00:58:41   10 hours a day in the building, because it was where the school newspaper was.

00:58:44   And I was going in and out of the building for reasons that I no longer remember, but it was

00:58:49   some kind of task.

00:58:50   It was maybe like first day of a new semester.

00:58:53   And there was something me and another colleague

00:58:56   from the student newspaper at Drexel

00:58:57   were doing where it required us to keep going back in and out

00:59:01   of the building.

00:59:02   Middle of the afternoon, nice sunny day.

00:59:04   And there's some kid, also a college kid,

00:59:07   obviously taking a job from somebody

00:59:09   to hand out some kind of flyer to kids coming in.

00:59:14   And we weren't coming in like every minute or so.

00:59:17   It was maybe like every 20 minutes or so.

00:59:19   And every time we went by, he would offer them to us

00:59:23   as though he'd never seen us again.

00:59:24   And then there's this moment of recognition,

00:59:27   and it's like, oh, you guys again, and do it.

00:59:30   And after like the seventh time, and he did it again,

00:59:33   and he was almost like apologetic,

00:59:36   I said, well, are these coupons or coupons?

00:59:39   And he said, they're coupons.

00:59:42   And I said, well, I only take coupons.

00:59:44   [LAUGHTER]

00:59:45   And I kept going.

00:59:47   And my friend who I was with almost died of laughter,

00:59:50   and he said, "I can't believe that guy didn't just punch you."

00:59:53   And I was like, "You know, he probably should have."

00:59:56   'Cause that, it was uncalled for.

00:59:59   It was totally uncalled for.

01:00:01   And at the time, I amused myself to death with that,

01:00:04   but I'm a changed man, I've grown up.

01:00:06   I no longer see others.

01:00:09   Well, I do see it as funny, but I no longer see it

01:00:11   as something that I would actually say.

01:00:13   - It is definitely funny.

01:00:17   and, you know, college. I mean, I, you know, I'm not going over the things that I said in college.

01:00:23   Well, the funny thing I remember was that when I said it, I didn't expect him to give me an answer.

01:00:27   I expected him, when I said it, "Are they coupons or coupons?" I expected him to give me the finger

01:00:32   at that point. He didn't even hesitate. He didn't even hesitate. He said, "They're coupons." I even

01:00:38   remember that he said, "Coupons instead of coupons." And I just said, "Well, I only accept coupons."

01:00:45   [laughter]

01:00:48   I don't know what, I don't know something about that. I haven't thought about that story.

01:00:51   Matthew: Yeah, if that guy's listening, you know, contact John.

01:00:55   [laughter]

01:00:56   Pete: And I'll send you a free Derek Fireball t-shirt. I swear to God. I haven't thought

01:01:02   about that story in 20 years.

01:01:03   [laughter]

01:01:04   Matthew: So, I just sent you a link. This happened while we were recording. Apparently,

01:01:12   pictures of the of the of the bar leaked in Sierra

01:01:15   Of the retina MacBook

01:01:19   Images of new MacBook Pro with magic toolbar leaked in Mac OS Sierra 10.12.1

01:01:25   Way to go Apple includes Apple pay so there is a like a fingerprint

01:01:34   sensor I

01:01:37   Also see that they've printed a Mac rumors logo on the return key

01:01:41   I saw that. I thought that must be, now they're doing some co-branding, I guess.

01:01:48   [Laughter]

01:01:48   This has got to drive Phil Schiller nuts.

01:01:55   Oh my God, yeah.

01:01:56   Right?

01:01:57   How did they do that? I mean, I guess this was in the Help?

01:02:01   I guess?

01:02:02   For 10.12.1?

01:02:04   Well, I'll put the—everybody, by the time they hear it, will probably have seen it, but I will.

01:02:08   Yeah, everyone's probably seen it.

01:02:09   Putting a link into the show notes.

01:02:11   And we, you know, it's nice that we talked about it before I noticed that.

01:02:15   Way to go, Apple!

01:02:16   Couldn't you do it like 15 minutes earlier? I guess they did, but nobody noticed it.

01:02:23   Well, that brings us to the next question I was going to have,

01:02:31   which is that—I did have it in the notes—which is that it has been rumored, and it does make some

01:02:37   sort of, you know, simple sense that they were going to put Touch ID on the new

01:02:41   MacBooks. My question was where is it going to go? Like, just the basic idea

01:02:48   of having Touch ID on a MacBook, yeah sure, that sounds, it makes a lot of sense,

01:02:52   especially once you get used to it on a phone, you realize how nice it is. But

01:02:55   where would it go on a MacBook? Would it go on the trackpad? Would it go on

01:03:00   like the J key? Would it go, and it looks like, you know, the answer is they're

01:03:07   putting it up in this upper right corner of the magic toolbar yeah and my other

01:03:12   thought is even if with this magic toolbar would they put it in a corner or

01:03:19   put it in the middle because it seems like by putting it in it is it gonna be

01:03:22   on both corners it doesn't seem like a waste of components to put two in but on

01:03:28   the other hand isn't it oddly biased towards right-handed users by putting it

01:03:32   in an upper right corner or am I overthink pose I think maybe you're

01:03:36   were thinking. I mean, you know, unlocking with my, you know, I'm assuming the computer unlocks

01:03:42   with it too. But unlocking and paying with my left index finger would be not really onerous either,

01:03:50   as a right-hander. But I would guess that it's configurable, because I mean,

01:03:57   that's the whole point of the thing, right?

01:03:58   Pete: Yeah, but the whole thing can't be a touch ID sensor, right? I mean, you'd-

01:04:02   you know I suppose not right not yeah it would seem unnecessarily I mean I guess

01:04:07   it could be but it seems like that would be wait or you to one in each corner but

01:04:11   right that just seems like a waste - that and I guess I guess the power

01:04:15   buttons always been on the upper right corner so you know seems like

01:04:18   left-handed MacBook users have been able to turn their computers on and off

01:04:22   mm-hmm for a while so maybe I'm overthinking that maybe I'm over

01:04:27   sensitive to my left-handed friends well maybe they sell different models of

01:04:31   lefty and a righty. Like buying golf clubs. They're already selling models that have Mac

01:04:38   rumors on the return key. Like golf clubs and scissors you can buy a left-handed MacBook Pro.

01:04:43   At the left door, you have to go to the left-over RAM though. You know what bothers me about this

01:04:50   shot? Really it does and it's it's I'm showing my age and I got to just get used to it but I look at

01:04:56   this there's a picture of it's it's showing I guess it's from the idea you

01:05:01   said it's from the help of how to use Apple pay so somebody is making an Apple

01:05:05   pay purchase the touchscreen the little strip has a cancel button on the left

01:05:09   then it says Apple pay and then something in red that I can't read but

01:05:14   I'm guessing it that's as touch here yeah touch here I need a Apple 900 and

01:05:20   of course it's going to 326 bucks right what can you get from Apple for 326 but

01:05:25   But then you can also see what's on the display.

01:05:28   Yeah, no, no, they're buying Beats headphones.

01:05:32   You can also see what's on the display, and they're using Safari to buy something from

01:05:36   Apple.com.

01:05:38   What bothers me is that they're running this Mac with the menu bar hidden.

01:05:45   I really, it really bothers me.

01:05:48   Full screen mode bothers you?

01:05:51   Yeah, it does.

01:05:54   I think you're gonna say, doesn't the Apple Pay sheet look like it's not…

01:05:59   Connected?

01:06:01   Well, it doesn't… maybe it's okay. It almost looks like it's square. It's not that the…

01:06:07   Perspective is off.

01:06:09   The perspective is off.

01:06:10   Yeah, maybe. Like, yeah, sort of. So anyway, I guess we're getting a touch…

01:06:16   [Laughter]

01:06:17   A touch trim on a Mac.

01:06:18   [Laughter]

01:06:20   Glad we settled that.

01:06:21   Yeah.

01:06:23   Presumably if it is OLED they're saying it Mac rumors is saying it as fact that it's an OLED touch panel

01:06:30   Which you certainly can't tell from the image

01:06:32   but it does make some sense that it's OLED and not LCD because

01:06:35   It's gonna be black most of the time or the background is gonna be black all the time and OLED does

01:06:41   much blacker blacks than LCD

01:06:44   It's like I think the colors are still messed up on OLED, but you certainly can't complain about the blacks

01:06:53   This is in they also say a new MacBook Air model. Well, okay same rumor, I guess yeah

01:06:59   Well, there's that

01:07:03   They say new iMacs are a possibility as well

01:07:08   I think that I think that's true it just because I think that the iMac is still sort of the you know

01:07:15   It's the the default desktop computer

01:07:19   I mean, it's obviously not the Mac Pro or the Mac Mini Mac Mini has been updated in two years

01:07:24   So why not? You know, it's been a year. It was October last year

01:07:27   Why not just you know, just do a silent or not silent

01:07:31   But you know, you know, just take the latest and greatest from Intel and stick it in the gut. I

01:07:36   Can't see why they wouldn't do that

01:07:39   Yeah

01:07:41   Yeah, I don't know why either I mean, but I don't

01:07:44   Not sure why they haven't updated them

01:07:47   The Mac Pro in the Mac Mini for right several years. All right, so

01:07:52   Wrapping up. I think that we will see the new Mac pros. I think

01:07:57   We don't know what the hell they're doing with this quote-unquote 13-inch other model

01:08:03   Doesn't make any sense to us can't wait to find out about that one. Yeah, I

01:08:09   I'm I don't know if I bet on new Mac pros

01:08:12   But because it seems to me like you could lose a lot of money over the last three years

01:08:16   years by betting on new Mac Pros. But I would at least like to see new Mac Pros, and it

01:08:22   seems like maybe if they've been waiting for a Retina display, maybe the time is right.

01:08:26   And if we see one, we'll see both.

01:08:29   Well, does it seem like, I mean, I'm not sure that these, just updating the laptop line

01:08:36   doesn't sound like enough for an event, does it?

01:08:38   I don't think so either. I mean, we can continue with that after the sponsor break. Then maybe

01:08:43   there's other stuff they could announce other than Mac hardware, but it does seem to me like if it was really just if the only

01:08:49   Thing that was really new new like it. This is a new design knew is the MacBook Pros

01:08:53   I don't know that they would have an event

01:08:55   Right, so I don't know. I mean we certainly know everything, you know, Sierra is already out. It's not like, you know

01:09:01   It's not like they have a new operating system to show. Yeah

01:09:05   I mean the only other thing that well, okay you want to do a

01:09:10   What you're gonna say like well do the air pods I mean that they would announce that air pods are shipping

01:09:15   Yeah, but there's nothing just for sale. That's a time in an event for that

01:09:18   I'm guessing that that's when they're going to say that because they did say late October and this event will be on the

01:09:25   27th of October so

01:09:27   So I'm hopeful I hope we are gonna see Mac pros, we'll see I'm not gonna bet the house on it I

01:09:37   Would definitely not be surprised to see that we have updated IMAX that look exactly the same but just have updated components

01:09:43   I mean, there's no point to up get it updating the display

01:09:46   Right, yeah, I mean that displays all right, and that doesn't that doesn't make any sense, right?

01:09:51   It's already got the high color gamut and all the pixels you'd want

01:09:54   and then there's I guess the only thing left is the Mac mini which I don't think they're gonna I

01:09:59   Don't I I don't know. I think that that might be like

01:10:03   done

01:10:05   You think that oh you really I don't know or maybe it's sort of on at the permanent three or four year schedule

01:10:11   I don't know. I just wouldn't be surprised if you know, I did the event comes and goes and there's no news about the Mac Mini

01:10:17   I just wish that they would just you know, stick new processors in them. I mean I

01:10:21   Do don't you don't have to change it that much just put some new processors in it and then

01:10:25   Hey, I don't know. It's all it seems like that's not that hard and you're kind of printing money doing it and

01:10:34   Well, Apple's a very small company. I think that you know, I don't know that they have

01:10:38   All that bandwidth, you know the internal bandwidth update

01:10:44   Update a computer that doesn't even have a display or anything. I would like to see them update the Mac Mini

01:10:51   I would like to see them keep it updated. I think the Mac Mini is an interesting little device where yes in many cases

01:10:57   It's just the lowest price Apple

01:11:01   official Mac that you can buy without, you know, building your own hackintosh thing. And it is just somebody trying to build the cheapest desktop

01:11:08   Mac that they can get away with or, you know, and, you know,

01:11:11   sensibly reuse existing things like the display that they've already got that's pretty if you have a perfectly fine display,

01:11:18   you know, that this is a perfectly fine low-cost Mac.

01:11:21   But it's also a device and I'm sure that like, you know, people who listen to my podcasts are among there,

01:11:28   where it's in some ways it kind of is a power user device

01:11:31   because it's the sort of thing that people who would set up

01:11:33   like a media server in their house would do, right?

01:11:36   Where it's not like your power user

01:11:38   where you're spending a lot of money on it,

01:11:39   but where you're doing things that most typical consumers

01:11:43   would never even think to do, right?

01:11:46   Like, you know, or build like your own, you know,

01:11:49   people, I know, you know, people who sort of,

01:11:51   rather than buy an Apple TV, will, you know,

01:11:54   buy a Mac Mini and sort of, you know,

01:11:56   select their own software that they can use to drive their home entertainment system.

01:12:01   So that maybe they can watch movies that fell off a truck and stuff like that.

01:12:06   There's certain things that you can do if you just have a PC that you control connected

01:12:12   to your TV that you couldn't do.

01:12:13   So there are power user use cases for the Mac Mini and I always like to think of Apple

01:12:21   as a company that makes things that people like that would like to buy.

01:12:25   would like to see it, but I'm not holding my breath for it. But maybe, you know, maybe just like in the

01:12:31   one fell swoop now everything uses USB-C, you know, maybe they update the Mac Mini too just to get USB-C

01:12:37   ports on it. Yeah, I wish that I would like them to do that too. I would consider buying one. I've

01:12:43   never owned one. Well, actually, I mean, I have an old one that somebody gave me, but I've never

01:12:48   purchased one, and I feel like I might be in the market for one. Like, if I go to,

01:12:54   which I'm kind of leaning towards right now, is getting a MacBook Pro again, you know,

01:13:00   that iMac upstairs and that ancient MacBook Pro aren't going to last long either, so,

01:13:07   and I mostly just need a server, like a media server. And so, I would definitely consider

01:13:13   getting a mini for that. Pete:

01:13:17   All right, let me take a break and thank our next sponsor. It's our good friends at audible.com.

01:13:23   Audible.com has an unmatched selection of audio books and this is how I used to think. I used to

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01:14:00   anytime, anywhere. And audiobooks have been around for a while. I mean, they used to call

01:14:05   them books on tape. I mean, that's how long, I mean, that I've been familiar with them.

01:14:08   it's just one of those things that has exploded in popularity with digital

01:14:13   because you know tapes are a little bit of a pain in the ass. Digital you know

01:14:18   you could skip around you can have stuff read at a different speed and the book

01:14:23   industry has really embraced it it's no longer an afterthought a whole bunch of

01:14:28   popular books are read by the authors themselves which adds a totally extra

01:14:33   dimension to the text. Just a really cool idea if you think about it. Or else

01:14:38   otherwise, they're often read by like, you know, famous actors and

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01:14:50   makes it easy to take risks and try new authors and genres without regret

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01:15:26   therefore you're in, you know, right there in the target audience for them.

01:15:29   I would wager that there's a higher percentage of talk show listeners

01:15:33   who listen to podcasts than there are who sleep on mattresses. It's probably a

01:15:39   better fit even than Casper, you know, because some number of you probably

01:15:43   just sleep on the floor. But if you're listening to me, I guarantee you, you

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01:15:51   content, go to audible.com/talkshow and get your free sponsorship. My thanks to them for

01:15:57   sponsoring this show. What do you think? Do you think there's a higher percentage of talk

01:16:00   show listeners who listen to podcasts or who sleep on a mattress? I think it's got to be

01:16:11   listened to podcasts.

01:16:14   I think what could skew it, do you know what your numbers are in Japan?

01:16:18   No, I don't, but it's non-zero.

01:16:20   zero. Right, right. Right? Uh-huh. It's non-zero. So I think as much as... I could throw the whole

01:16:27   thing off. God bless Casper. I love him, and I think it's a great fit because almost everybody

01:16:32   sleeps on a mattress and needs a new one eventually. Audible, I think, might be the greatest

01:16:37   fit for the podcast audience of all time, because by definition everybody listens to audio. I mean,

01:16:42   in theory, somebody... I don't have transcripts every week, so I mean, in theory, somebody could

01:16:47   rig something up where they're making their own transcripts of the show and reading them,

01:16:50   but I would guess that that number is smaller than the number of people who don't have a mattress.

01:16:55   They do transcripts of your show for when you do the live one.

01:17:00   I do, yeah. Well, yeah.

01:17:02   Or somebody does it. Did that, was that Eimor?

01:17:05   Yes, this time.

01:17:09   Yeah.

01:17:10   Serenity Caldwell typed it up in exchange for their being allowed to publish it,

01:17:15   which was a good deal, you know, I thought that was a fine deal. And I also pay Vimeo

01:17:22   for closed captions for those, so that the video has closed captions. And so I forget what it is,

01:17:31   a couple hundred bucks, I don't know. It's a, you know, it's like not, it's, you know, like it's,

01:17:36   it's not free, but it was, it seemed like a no-brainer in terms of accessibility.

01:17:40   my Twitter bio is actually from that transcript.

01:17:44   Pete: Oh, really?

01:17:45   [Laughter]

01:17:45   Ben: Yeah, because I can't remember what was said about me this last time,

01:17:50   but there was a mention of me and then they typed in, Serenity typed in the crowd reaction,

01:17:57   which was "Laughter and some awws." So, that's my Twitter bio.

01:18:03   Pete; I think the context was, it was in my introduction, I said last year we had Phil

01:18:08   Schiller and you know. It was, yeah, I think it was less than charitable if I remember.

01:18:13   This, you know, the goal, you know, it would be nice to be able to top it, but one of these years

01:18:19   we're going to run out of room to top it and, you know,

01:18:22   just going to open the curtains and it's going to be molds.

01:18:25   This year is not that year. I think that was it. I think that was pretty close to what I said.

01:18:34   It was nice enough. I mean, it was heartfelt. I mean, I meant it.

01:18:38   [Laughter]

01:18:41   That someday they're going to have to put up with me.

01:18:43   Yeah, and we're going to have a good show.

01:18:45   Yeah. Look forward to that. I'm interested to know what, I'm assuming that this magic,

01:18:52   what the hell is it called? Magic?

01:18:54   What do they call it?

01:18:56   Toolbar, magic toolbar.

01:18:57   Toolbar.

01:18:57   defaults to just function keys when there's no other thing presented.

01:19:04   Yeah.

01:19:05   Nothing else that's been deliberately programmed.

01:19:07   Yes.

01:19:08   Yeah.

01:19:09   Because Owen Williams, I forget where he works now, he's jumped around a lot, was pointing out there's, you know, like if you look at it, there's no escape key.

01:19:21   like, that's the one thing that you, that's on the toolbar that you would probably use

01:19:26   in a regular application. And like, I think of like Minecraft. Like, there's no escape key,

01:19:33   you can't play the game, but there must be, it must just default to what's normally there,

01:19:38   if it's not specifically defined.

01:19:40   Pete: I, it's, I, even in my days when I was telnetting into things to do my computer science

01:19:49   assignments in the 90s on Unix machines, I've always been a BB Edit user, but I had to know.

01:19:56   If you can't, you can't go through the old terminal and not eventually learn either Emacs or Vim to

01:20:02   some degree. And Vim is effectively unused. I mean, I don't think Apple is all that concerned

01:20:08   about people using Vim in a terminal, but it's, you hit the escape key roughly 700 times a minute.

01:20:15   It's like, escape is how you do anything.

01:20:17   Escape is like enter a command.

01:20:19   Escape is switch modes.

01:20:22   I just remember when somebody pointed it out

01:20:24   with the smart keyboard cover for the iPad

01:20:27   that it doesn't have an escape key.

01:20:29   And somebody was like, well, how would you use Vim?

01:20:31   And it's like, I kind of do wish that they had put the escape--

01:20:34   I use the escape key just to cancel things.

01:20:38   So I do wish they had an escape key,

01:20:41   but I don't know that Vim users are

01:20:44   on the front of Apple's mind. Probably not. It does seem weird for the Mac, though. It seems—because

01:20:49   at least with the iPad, you could argue that there's no history of it because the software

01:20:53   keyboard for the iPad doesn't have an escape key either, but it certainly seems unusual.

01:20:59   Our friend Darth already has an image up with the Magic toolbar, and it's like it's the Times Square

01:21:13   message thing, and it's just rolling across courage.

01:21:16   [Laughter]

01:21:20   All right, I'll put a link to it in my shirt.

01:21:22   [Laughter]

01:21:28   Guy is quite funny.

01:21:30   [Laughter]

01:21:33   I said this before to me. He's like the funniest, like, political cartoonist going today,

01:21:42   And he was like, "Aw, shucks." But it's not—they're not, obviously not traditional political cartoons,

01:21:48   but they are political, and they are funny, and they do express complex—

01:21:53   It's the modern—it's the modern equivalent.

01:21:55   Right. It's updated for the modern age.

01:21:58   Darth's tiny-handed Trump Photoshop chops.

01:22:03   Like, when he does one for Trump, it doesn't matter whether he mentions the hands or not,

01:22:09   He just always shrinks his hand.

01:22:11   And the funny part is that Darth is also--

01:22:19   I think he's really good at Photoshop.

01:22:21   Like, at least he's good at what he does in Photoshop,

01:22:24   which isn't trying to fool you into thinking this is real.

01:22:27   But it's like, he must--

01:22:30   It's a musical.

01:22:31   It's just like--

01:22:31   Yeah.

01:22:32   And I think he does whip these things out in a minute or two.

01:22:35   Oh my god, yeah.

01:22:36   He's crazy fast.

01:22:37   Right.

01:22:37   crazy fast but they don't look like they would if I did it where you would know

01:22:41   clearly see where the lasso is drawn around the hands like if I was doing it

01:22:47   as quickly as he did you'd still see the marching ants around the selection I

01:22:50   would just draw that and take a screenshot what about other stuff that

01:22:59   Apple might announce this week like they could do like the some like their

01:23:06   airport stuff is out of date, would they tie that together with their, you know, home stereo

01:23:13   speaker Amazon Echo type thing?

01:23:18   That's a good question. I mean, I've heard that thing is out there and being field tested.

01:23:28   I wasn't thinking that it was ready to go yet.

01:23:31   I don't know. But it seemed like maybe that would maybe help explain why they're having

01:23:35   an event if they have something actually new to unveil. Right. I mean, the timing, you know,

01:23:42   the timing right before the holidays would be good. Right, if they actually are able to make it. I

01:23:45   mean, how they kept it from leaking, who knows, but, you know. Yeah, that's a good question. Made

01:23:52   in the USA. I don't know. Probably not. Maybe that guy's been doing more than we thought.

01:23:57   I don't know, but it's, you know, I would like to see it. I don't know what else to say about it,

01:24:03   other than that it, you know, seems like maybe.

01:24:08   My understanding was that it was not that long ago that people were given some units

01:24:20   to try out.

01:24:21   So that doesn't seem like quite enough time.

01:24:23   Like if they found like a real problem, it doesn't seem like enough time to turn it around

01:24:27   and do something.

01:24:29   I mean, this seemed like real alpha sort of stuff.

01:24:35   I don't know.

01:24:36   Yeah.

01:24:37   But it seems like, you know, even if it's a short event, it seems like they might have

01:24:39   room for something like that.

01:24:42   Yeah.

01:24:43   I linked to a thing—have you seen this, where there was like the widespread Internet

01:24:48   outage this week?

01:24:50   Mm-hmm.

01:24:51   I sort of slept right through it, but I mean, huge parts of the Internet were unavailable.

01:24:56   It was during the morning on the East Coast, and some of the afternoon.

01:25:01   It seems as though wherever Daring Fireball is hosted seemed to avoid it, because I didn't

01:25:07   seem to get any complaints that people couldn't reach Daring Fireball, but a whole bunch of

01:25:12   big internet sites were unavailable because there was an attack on the DNS system, and

01:25:18   when DNS goes down, pretty much everything goes down.

01:25:22   The gist of the attack, which is interesting,

01:25:24   is that it was a bunch of internet of things devices,

01:25:28   like webcams and just internet-connected cameras

01:25:33   and speakers and stuff like that made by these Chinese companies

01:25:36   that all have--

01:25:38   The same password.

01:25:39   --the same password.

01:25:40   Like, literally, I'm not making this attack up.

01:25:44   And there's a botnet that just slowly but methodically

01:25:48   searched the internet for like, are you one of these cameras?

01:25:52   Nope.

01:25:53   Are you one of these cameras?

01:25:54   Nope.

01:25:55   You know, thousands and thousands and thousands

01:25:57   of times.

01:25:57   But then eventually found a yes, noted the address,

01:26:01   and then kept going.

01:26:02   And then when they wanted to turn on the attack,

01:26:04   just told all of these cameras to do a distributed denial

01:26:10   of service attack on DNS servers.

01:26:13   Anyway, seems to me like a lot of these internet things--

01:26:15   of things devices aren't all that secure. Apparently not. And that maybe, you know,

01:26:21   I linked before the show started to a two-year or a year-old story about device makers complaining

01:26:28   that Apple's HomeKit, you know, HomeKit was slow to make peripherals for because Apple has stringent

01:26:34   security requirements. And maybe that makes a lot more sense now.

01:26:43   Don't all use the same password. That's our stringent security requirement. Number one.

01:26:49   Uh, breaking news.

01:26:52   Yeah, I mean, I have a, I've got, you know, the only thing I've got is this one camera, and I

01:26:56   don't think it's one of those, but, you know, I don't even know how I would tell.

01:27:01   If you come in your office and it attacks you.

01:27:04   Yeah, it was growling the other day, but I don't think, I think that was unrelated.

01:27:10   I don't know. I don't have any other things to expect on this event.

01:27:12   Do you? It's probably not gonna be that big, you know.

01:27:17   I think, you know.

01:27:19   - So yeah, so this is happening at the campus

01:27:21   at the smaller--

01:27:23   - Yes, it is at town hall.

01:27:24   - Yeah.

01:27:26   - It will almost certainly be the last town hall event.

01:27:29   I mean, barring some kind of surprise emergency event,

01:27:33   sort of like the antenna gate or something like that,

01:27:35   I don't see, you know.

01:27:38   They even said at the last one that this would probably,

01:27:40   that the last one was probably gonna be

01:27:42   the last town hall event.

01:27:45   So this one I think is almost certainly.

01:27:47   Maybe they'll, do you think that maybe they'll

01:27:49   let us rip out the chairs?

01:27:50   (laughing)

01:27:53   They did that at the, I think it was at

01:27:57   Philadelphia's Veterans Stadium, which is no longer there,

01:28:01   it's now a parking lot.

01:28:01   So built in like 1971, the Vat, as we called it lovingly,

01:28:06   was the home of the Philadelphia Eagles

01:28:08   and the Philadelphia Phillies for, I don't know,

01:28:10   20-some years.

01:28:11   know, growing up, we had, I don't even remember where these came from, but now you mentioned that

01:28:15   we had a couple of bleacher seats. I mean, not bench seats, but like wooden seats from

01:28:23   something. I'm thinking maybe the Jets.

01:28:25   Pete: Yeah, that's possible.

01:28:26   Jared; The whole stadium? Yeah.

01:28:27   Pete; I'll bet. Before they built the Meadowlands.

01:28:29   Jared; Right, right.

01:28:30   Pete; Yeah. So, they let, I forget, I think it was a Phillies game was the last game and there was,

01:28:35   I forget I actually forget if they were allowing fans to take the seats or if fans just did

01:28:41   Did it on their own like?

01:28:44   Guys from a South Philly game in with a ratchet set and just started taking the seat down

01:28:50   Maybe they'll let us do that at town hall and take like a souvenir. Yeah

01:28:53   We we not only do we so we had those seats and then the other thing that we had were when they made the movie

01:28:59   the natural

01:29:01   [Music]

01:29:10   In order to make it look like the stands were full, they had these like,

01:29:14   like cardboard people that they put in and then they just like, they'd intersperse real people

01:29:20   here and there to make it look like a real crowd. And so somehow, I don't know how we got these,

01:29:25   but we had like cardboard people from that movie. And they sat, we put them in those chairs from

01:29:29   the metal lens or whatever from, you know, whatever was before the metal lens.

01:29:33   Wouldn't it be cool? That's cool. I didn't know they had cardboard people for that. I think that

01:29:38   was a common trick because isn't it the story in the metal ceremony in Star Wars that most of the

01:29:43   rebels were cardboard cutouts? Were they cardboard? Was it cardboard or was it a matte painting?

01:29:51   I don't know. I don't know. One or the other. It seems like it would have been a matte painting,

01:29:54   but I couldn't tell you. Yeah. That's pretty cool. So maybe I should take a big suitcase with me.

01:30:04   Yeah, you should. That'd be a hard carry on. Wouldn't that be funny, trying to put a chair

01:30:10   from down all into the x-ray machine and trying to convince the flight crew that—

01:30:16   You just nail it. You just get the concierge people to nail it for you.

01:30:20   This will fit in the overhead, no problem.

01:30:23   They are small seats.

01:30:24   They might fit in the overhead.

01:30:25   - What are they gonna, I don't know, are they keeping,

01:30:32   I mean, I assume they're keeping Infinite Loop and--

01:30:36   - Yes, they are absolutely, the Infinite Loop camp,

01:30:38   they're so overflowing with employees

01:30:42   and so in need of office space that I don't even know

01:30:45   they're... they have a bunch of interim buildings in Cupertino. I mean, I don't

01:30:52   know how interim interim is, but I forget what the reason was. But I know, I just

01:31:03   know that there are Apple buildings in Cupertino that you would never even

01:31:07   guess were Apple buildings. It's not even because necessarily they're like secret,

01:31:11   like it's, you know, it's not like the Project Titan team or something like

01:31:14   that. Just people working on stuff, but there's no more room in Infinite Loop, and the new campus

01:31:20   isn't open, and so they're just, you know, anything, you know, I think if you own an

01:31:24   office building in Cupertino, it's like salad days. No, so I think my understanding is that

01:31:31   Infinite Loop will remain fully occupied. There are certainly some people there who are moving

01:31:35   to the new office or the new building, but they're going to take up all this space.

01:31:39   Well, it seems like they might have use for Town Hall then.

01:31:42   Yeah, because I'm sure that they could still have team meetings in there and stuff like that.

01:31:46   Jared: So, they might need the seats.

01:31:47   [Laughter]

01:31:48   Pete: I think they could have a standing meeting.

01:31:51   Jared. Try it, just see what happens.

01:31:55   Pete; I don't even know why I want these seats. They're very small and uncomfortable,

01:31:59   so I don't even know why I want one. I just like the idea of me and Jason Snell taking them apart.

01:32:05   Jared. Mm hmm, sure.

01:32:06   Pete; Dalrymple could easily.

01:32:08   Jared. Oh, yeah, Dalrymple, yeah. He's probably got three already.

01:32:10   Almost certainly broken a few of them already. Breaking news, we've got Apple's, as we're

01:32:21   recording, Apple's quarterly finance. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, I forgot about that coming

01:32:26   up. I don't know that... They out of business yet? I think they're doomed. This just says doomed.

01:32:36   I was just reading Tim Cook's remarks. Tim Cook says—

01:32:41   Tim Cook could not be more excited, quote, quote, about iPhone 7, 7+ demand,

01:32:46   which outstrips supply. That's, you know, no numbers applied to that.

01:32:51   Yeah. Yeah, it's—

01:32:54   So, iPhones above estimates.

01:32:57   Yeah, it looks like they're a little bit above, but they're still down year over year, 45 million.

01:33:02   But I think that the consensus was 43 million, so they sold an extra 2 million.

01:33:06   Mac sales were 4.9 million down from 5.7,

01:33:11   but it's just like the whole reason,

01:33:14   part of the reason that I was willing to record

01:33:18   this show before this results is I didn't expect

01:33:20   these results to be that exciting,

01:33:22   and part of it is just like we've just spent 90 minutes

01:33:25   talking about how every single Mac in the lineup

01:33:27   is outdated and anybody, you know,

01:33:31   so I don't think it's a shock,

01:33:32   I don't think it's a sign of problems with the Mac

01:33:34   that sales are slightly down.

01:33:36   I think it's almost shocking that they weren't down more.

01:33:39   - Yeah, definitely.

01:33:41   - He says that Tim Cook says they're thrilled

01:33:45   with the customer response to Apple Watch Series 2

01:33:48   and the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus.

01:33:50   But the other reason that this quarter

01:33:51   is not that interesting is this quarter ended

01:33:53   at the end of September, so the only iPhone 7 sales

01:33:56   that are even counted are the initial

01:34:00   opening weekend sales more or less.

01:34:04   I don't think there's anything all that interesting here. Average selling price for the iPhone is up,

01:34:09   but down for both the iPad and the Mac. Hmm. Well, I think that makes sense because I think it makes

01:34:16   sense because I think most of the people who are buying a Mac are the people who are,

01:34:19   I'm not even gonna say uninformed, but that they don't even care, you know, about whether it's a

01:34:23   year-old chipset or something like that. I would expect that average selling price of the Mac is

01:34:30   is going to go up next time we hear from Apple.

01:34:34   Because I think there's a lot of people waiting.

01:34:36   Here, let me just take a break here.

01:34:40   This is a good time.

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01:37:28   Love MailChimp.

01:37:30   Speaking of the live show, they sponsor the live show,

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01:37:39   - Good guys, good crew, good stuff.

01:37:41   I think friend of the show, Ben Thompson,

01:37:44   sends his daily update through MailChimp.

01:37:47   Very happy user of MailChimp.

01:37:51   What else we got?

01:37:52   I got a Google Pixel.

01:37:54   - Oh yeah, yeah, you wanna talk about that?

01:37:56   - Yeah, a little bit.

01:37:57   Do you have any questions?

01:37:58   What questions do you have for me?

01:37:59   I've been using it for about a week.

01:38:00   - Well, you were doing a little Siri

01:38:04   and Assistant comparison, weren't you?

01:38:06   - I have been, yes.

01:38:08   - You wanna talk about that,

01:38:09   or are you saving that for a blowout?

01:38:12   - No, it's hard to do.

01:38:15   I don't know if I'm gonna do a big, massive comparison,

01:38:17   but I have to say, just keeping both devices with me

01:38:21   and doing the same things on both devices.

01:38:24   I do admit, I think that overall, I

01:38:27   think Google Assistant is a little bit ahead of Siri

01:38:32   in some ways.

01:38:33   And the main way that I think it's ahead

01:38:35   is just in the way that Google web search is the best web

01:38:40   search, that they're still ahead of Bing and DuckDuckGo

01:38:44   and other search engines.

01:38:45   But just things that you expect to find

01:38:47   through traditional Google, where you just type

01:38:49   in a browser and type a thing in a box and you expect to get the right answer from Google.

01:38:55   Google Assistant can answer those type of things in general better than Siri.

01:39:02   But for the things I actually ask from Siri and Google Assistant, they're a lot closer

01:39:07   than to me that the conventional wisdom would have you think.

01:39:12   That the conventional wisdom to me is that Google is kicking ass in this area and that

01:39:17   that Siri is a piece of useless garbage.

01:39:20   (laughing)

01:39:22   I'm saying it sounds like hyperbole,

01:39:24   but I mean, I see this all the time.

01:39:26   I see people writing this.

01:39:27   This just seems to be the assumption

01:39:29   that a lot of people have.

01:39:30   And it just isn't backed up in real life.

01:39:33   I did an example on Saturday.

01:39:37   I know that it was Saturday, and I couldn't remember,

01:39:40   I don't know if you know this or not,

01:39:41   I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan.

01:39:42   - Oh, I hadn't heard that.

01:39:45   - I couldn't remember when Dallas played again.

01:39:47   It was an honest question.

01:39:48   I was pretty sure.

01:39:50   But I asked both devices, when does Dallas play?

01:39:54   And I didn't say the Dallas Cowboys.

01:39:56   I just said, when does Dallas play?

01:39:58   And if I'm recalling correctly, Google Assistant

01:40:06   gave me a Dallas Cowboys score from two weeks ago, which

01:40:14   was not the answer to the question.

01:40:16   Even though, and it shows you what it thinks it heard.

01:40:18   It heard me say, "When does Dallas play?"

01:40:20   Siri, on the other hand, I said, "When does Dallas play?"

01:40:23   Said, "Which team?"

01:40:24   And offered me the Dallas Mavericks, Dallas Cowboys,

01:40:28   and whatever their ice hockey team is.

01:40:30   And I tapped Dallas Cowboys, and then Siri correctly told me

01:40:34   that Dallas plays the Philadelphia Eagles next Sunday

01:40:37   at 8.30 on Sunday Night Football.

01:40:40   Correct answer.

01:40:42   I mean, and a lot of my examples that I find

01:40:45   where Siri works better than both Alexa and Google now,

01:40:49   seem to be sports-based.

01:40:51   It seems like--

01:40:51   Yeah, I was going to say, it does

01:40:53   seem like they have spent a bunch of time making sure

01:40:56   that sports stuff works well.

01:40:57   Yeah, and part of it is that the--

01:41:00   I don't know, part of it is Siri and what Siri says to you.

01:41:02   And part of it is that Apple has partnered

01:41:04   with Yahoo Sports, and Yahoo Sports

01:41:06   seems to have not just good information,

01:41:08   but it seems to have it structured in a way

01:41:12   that Siri can really take advantage of it.

01:41:15   So maybe my perspective as somebody

01:41:19   who's a relatively big sports fan

01:41:21   is maybe better suited to Siri's sports focus

01:41:25   than people who aren't,

01:41:26   but I just think that the general idea

01:41:28   that the Google Assistant is way, way, way ahead of Siri

01:41:31   is just not true.

01:41:33   And then the other thing that I just linked to

01:41:34   the other day was MKBHD, Marques Brownlee,

01:41:39   who does these amazing--

01:41:41   - Yeah.

01:41:42   Yeah, I saw that he's like, you know when I hear about people who are like professional youtubers and I see some of their videos

01:41:46   I'm like, I cannot believe that this is a professional and then I see his and I'm like, well, he's like

01:41:51   He was like born to be on TV. Yeah. Yeah, and he does all the video work himself

01:41:58   I've seen him doing it in the hands-on areas at the Apple events and it's amazing. It's like he's a one-man studio

01:42:03   It is absolutely amazing watching him work. But anyway, he had a comparison of

01:42:08   Siri versus

01:42:10   Google Assistant. And it was remarkable to me how many of them were exactly the same,

01:42:16   both in response time and accuracy. Yeah, I thought, you know, and I think overall,

01:42:23   I was surprised. And you know, what I found very interesting was I assumed that Assistant was much

01:42:28   better at the contextual questions where you ask it one question, then you ask the following

01:42:32   question that plays off that previous question. I always, I just assumed that Assistant would be

01:42:39   much better. Actually, I think it is better, but what I was really surprised about was that

01:42:44   Siri got any of them at all. I just assumed that it wouldn't, from question, because I've never

01:42:50   actually experienced that personally, but I haven't tried it recently. And it seemed like

01:42:56   every time I tried it before, it's like, you know, it's being hit on the head each time. It doesn't

01:43:00   remember what the previous question was. Pete: Right. And what we're talking about would be

01:43:04   sequences of queries, like if you said, "Hey, what is the—hey, Dingus, what's the Dallas Cowboys

01:43:11   record?" And then after you get the answer, then if you said, "When do they play next?" So your

01:43:16   query is, "When do they play next?" And you're assuming that the assistant can pick up the "they"

01:43:21   means the team you just asked about 10 seconds ago. Yeah, I think it was he was talking about

01:43:27   presidents or something like that, and you know, like, "When was so-and-so born, and how tall,

01:43:32   and then how tall is he?

01:43:34   Who's the president of the United States?

01:43:35   How tall is he?

01:43:36   Yeah, that's right.

01:43:38   And I think Google Assistant got that one right,

01:43:40   and Siri did not.

01:43:43   I think Siri humorously--

01:43:45   Google Assistant said Barack Obama is 6 foot 1 inches tall,

01:43:48   and Siri gave him the height of the United States of America.

01:43:52   Not perfect.

01:43:57   But there were some basic ones, though,

01:43:59   like, you know, what's the weather? Where they — the exact same speed was almost striking. You'd

01:44:08   almost think that they were hooked up to the same back end, given how similar the response times

01:44:13   were. And Apple provided — Siri provided a little bit more, like, charts and graph kind of stuff.

01:44:22   Yeah. And maybe that stuff comes from, well, from Alpha, I'm not sure.

01:44:28   Yeah, well, there's one thing that MKBHD

01:44:32   missed in his comparison.

01:44:34   And I wasn't fully aware of it either.

01:44:36   I kind of knew this vaguely, especially

01:44:41   because I've been using AirPods for the last month.

01:44:43   But then somebody on Twitter called it out.

01:44:45   I don't know who, so I'm sorry for not giving you credit.

01:44:47   But which is that Siri responds differently

01:44:52   based on how you invoke it.

01:44:54   And so if you do it purely by voice with a hey dingus,

01:44:58   you get more back through audio than you

01:45:04   do if you use the Home button.

01:45:06   If you use the Home button, Siri makes the assumption

01:45:09   that you're ready to touch things.

01:45:11   So just for example, my example from the other day

01:45:14   when I asked about when, quote, "when does Dallas play,"

01:45:17   unquote, it gave me an on-screen listing

01:45:21   of which Dallas and the three teams, and I could tap it.

01:45:24   But if I was doing it through AirPods, it would be an audio prompt.

01:45:29   Oh, OK.

01:45:31   How would it-- it would just ask you?

01:45:33   Like, it would name them out?

01:45:34   I think so.

01:45:34   I could try it and get back to you.

01:45:37   But--

01:45:37   Yeah, don't do it right now.

01:45:39   But I think I've seen that too, where I have another--

01:45:46   at least one other Amy in my context.

01:45:48   And so it's like, if I say text Amy, blah, blah, blah.

01:45:53   If I'm doing it through the AirPods, I can answer just audially that I want my wife,

01:46:00   not the other one.

01:46:03   So that's an interesting difference.

01:46:05   But I really do think that the conventional wisdom on where Siri stands compared to the

01:46:11   state of the art is way off.

01:46:13   It may be behind.

01:46:14   I probably wouldn't dispute that overall.

01:46:17   But it's so multivariate in so many different areas.

01:46:21   are clearly some areas where Siri is actually ahead that I do think that they're all in the

01:46:25   same ballpark at this point. Yeah. Yeah. I think, and I don't have a device currently that

01:46:32   will do that assistance. I haven't played around with it in a long time. And, you know,

01:46:40   just relying on what everybody says, but it sure really is like conventional wisdom that

01:46:46   Google is so much far ahead, and it does not seem to be really that far ahead.

01:46:51   Yeah, I would almost say that, if anything, the conventional wisdom isn't so much underestimating

01:46:57   Siri, it's overestimating Google Assistant. And again, for trivia questions, it is a little better

01:47:04   because it's just, you know, like if you just treat it as a vocal input for the Google search

01:47:09   box. But for a lot of contextual stuff, it's not. And it doesn't know things like

01:47:15   like I couldn't figure out how to take a screenshot on my Pixel

01:47:20   and asking Google Assistant was absolutely no help.

01:47:23   I'm not shocked that it wasn't a help,

01:47:28   but it does seem like if you're supposed

01:47:31   to be able to talk to your device,

01:47:32   it seems like the device--

01:47:34   eventually, it should be the case that if you have a phone

01:47:38   that has a Google Assistant, you should be able to say,

01:47:40   how do I take a screenshot?

01:47:41   And it should be able to tell you, don't you think?

01:47:44   yeah, definitely. I mean, that's—it seems like that's exactly what it should get right, because

01:47:52   that's what they have complete control over. I mean, that kind of, you know, it's like,

01:47:56   you know, spotlight for—but by voice.

01:47:59   Pete: Yeah. The trick with taking a screenshot on the Android devices is that you press the

01:48:05   power button and volume down, but you have to press them at the same time. Maybe not quite,

01:48:12   you know, like a hundredth of a second same time, but if you press one before the other,

01:48:16   it doesn't work. Like, if you press volume down even slightly before the power,

01:48:20   you immediately start changing the volume. And if you turn power and don't quite hit volume down

01:48:27   within a very small fraction of a second, it powers, you know, brings up the "do you want

01:48:32   to turn your phone off" thing. Yeah. I wasn't sure how to reboot the iPhone 7, because when Karen and

01:48:41   Hank both got theirs, I was setting theirs up, restoring their backups to their phones,

01:48:46   and at one point one of them froze and I had to force restart it and, you know, because now it's

01:48:55   the power—what is it? No, it's the volume button and the power button. Yeah. I think you hold down

01:49:02   both volume and power or something like that. Yeah, and I think I ended up just doing it by

01:49:06   accident because I was just trying everything in someone because I couldn't understand why it

01:49:09   wasn't working when I was doing the home button and the power button.

01:49:14   What other? Do you have any other Pixel questions? I will say my—

01:49:21   So, you know, everybody seems to think that it looks—I don't think it looks that great,

01:49:25   but how does it feel in real life?

01:49:29   I got the smaller one. I got the five-inch one, and I realized that—I forget how many

01:49:33   Android phones I've had over the last few years, but they've all been way too big for

01:49:38   for my taste, and this is the first Android phone

01:49:40   I've ever purchased that is either not a piece of junk

01:49:45   and not too big.

01:49:46   It is clearly a little bigger than the iPhone,

01:49:50   the 4.7-inch iPhones.

01:49:52   I mean, not just looking at it,

01:49:55   but it feels a little bigger.

01:49:56   It is a little wider, which is the biggest difference,

01:49:58   but it's nowhere near as wide as an iPhone 7 Plus,

01:50:01   and so I could live with this as the size of my phone.

01:50:05   So I appreciate that a lot.

01:50:06   So that's the small one, and it's bigger than the iPhone 7.

01:50:10   Yeah, it's exactly as much bigger

01:50:11   as you would think given that the display is 5 inches instead

01:50:16   of 4.7 inches.

01:50:18   And when you just look at it, and you can kind of

01:50:20   see that it has a chin and forehead of roughly

01:50:23   the same proportions as an iPhone.

01:50:25   Just that basic-- the fact that looking at it front on,

01:50:30   clearly, I don't even--

01:50:32   I think it's almost admirable that they're not denying it,

01:50:34   that it looks like an iPhone.

01:50:35   It feels exactly as much bigger as you would think,

01:50:38   given that the display's a little bigger.

01:50:40   - Yeah.

01:50:40   Interesting that that's the stage,

01:50:45   that's what's going on in that market,

01:50:47   because we have some friends,

01:50:49   and her father recently bought his first iPhone

01:50:54   after having Android for years,

01:50:57   because he got the SE, 'cause he wanted a smaller phone,

01:51:00   and he simply could not get one in the Android market.

01:51:03   - Right, well, it's nowhere near SE-sized,

01:51:05   there's still a gaping hole in the Android market at that size. But, you know, this is to my…

01:51:12   I think Sony has had some phones roughly this size that are considered high-end Android phones,

01:51:18   but I've never used one. So… Yeah. But what I find that really funny,

01:51:21   because that's always one of the things that people say, is the advantage of the Android

01:51:25   ecosystem is that you have so many different manufacturers that you can get a phone, any kind

01:51:31   kind of phone that you want and any kind of phone that you want as long as it's not a

01:51:36   four inch screen.

01:51:37   Right. As long as it's giant.

01:51:40   Yeah, right. As long as it's huge.

01:51:44   I don't know quite what the, you know, I don't know. I've always, I think part of that is

01:51:48   too, is that they need it for battery life. That battery life is in general worse on Android

01:51:53   than iOS.

01:51:54   Okay.

01:51:55   And I'm not quite sure though. I will say battery life on this device is fine. It seems

01:52:00   exactly equivalent to the iPhone 7 with extended use. Well it's a little bit

01:52:06   thicker at one end right because it doesn't have a camera it doesn't have a

01:52:09   camera bump it's like wedge shaped. Right I can't believe that nobody commented on

01:52:14   this at the original debate but we're not debate the event product

01:52:18   introduction event where I was like if it doesn't have a camera bump but the

01:52:21   it's thicker on one end than the other is it a wedge shape or is it like a step

01:52:26   design where the glass part is thicker and the other part is thinner and there's a step in

01:52:31   between? And the answer is it's a wedge shape. It's obviously not quite as wedge-shaped as like

01:52:37   a MacBook Air, but there is a wedge shape to it. I don't love that.

01:52:41   Tim Cynova Yeah, well, people were saying, "Oh, look,

01:52:43   there's no camera bump, ha ha ha." And they thought, "Well, wait a minute, there has to be..."

01:52:47   Either people were wrong about the fact that there had to be a camera bump because of physics,

01:52:55   or it has to be thicker, one or the other.

01:52:57   Pete: It's a, you know, it's sort of unapple-like, but I think camera bumps are unapple-like. I can't

01:53:03   decide what would be more unapple-like. The camera bump or a wedge shape. It does feel a little,

01:53:10   a little top-heavy in my hand because it's thicker at the top than the bottom, but not too much,

01:53:15   and even when I, and maybe it's my imagination almost, because when I balance it on my finger,

01:53:20   the balance point is only slightly towards the top instead of the center point.

01:53:23   - Yeah.

01:53:24   - And the fact that it doesn't have a camera bump is nice.

01:53:28   I will say.

01:53:31   - I mean, I don't have a camera bump either, but.

01:53:33   - The touch ID sensor is extremely fast.

01:53:35   If it's not as fast as Apple's, it's close to as fast.

01:53:40   It takes suspiciously shorter time to train than Apple.

01:53:46   And I just reset another iPhone the other day

01:53:50   and went through it again.

01:53:51   So the memory, it is fresh.

01:53:53   It definitely takes fewer lift and put it back down

01:53:57   to get your finger registered

01:53:58   with the Pixel fingerprint sensor.

01:54:00   So either they're actually training it a lot faster

01:54:04   than Apple or they're--

01:54:06   - They're looser about it.

01:54:07   - Right.

01:54:09   I don't know, but I can't, I certainly haven't had,

01:54:11   I've tried using other fingers

01:54:13   and it never falsely unlocks the phone,

01:54:15   so it seems all right.

01:54:16   Camera's good.

01:54:20   They have one.

01:54:20   - Yeah, so it seems like,

01:54:21   I mean, some people were questioning.

01:54:25   I mean, everybody seemed to think

01:54:26   that it was at least as good as the iPhone wanted,

01:54:29   and some people maybe thought it was even better.

01:54:31   And then the other people were saying,

01:54:32   "How can you say that?

01:54:33   "Look at how yellow this picture is."

01:54:34   And I was like, "I don't see any yellow in that picture.

01:54:37   "I don't know what you're talking about."

01:54:38   - You know, I've taken some side by side.

01:54:40   I've gone out sometimes in the daytime

01:54:42   and had both phones with me,

01:54:44   and there was a theater around the corner from our house

01:54:46   that just got just blown up.

01:54:50   I guess they didn't blow it up,

01:54:51   but they ripped it apart.

01:54:52   Now it's a big hole in the ground, which I,

01:54:54   for some reason, find an interesting thing

01:54:56   to take pictures of.

01:55:00   And they both look very good to me.

01:55:04   I can't say that one is better than the other,

01:55:06   but they both look good.

01:55:07   Every once in a while, one will look a little better

01:55:09   than the other.

01:55:10   I find that the pictures are way closer between the two

01:55:13   than in a lot of the examples I linked to last week.

01:55:16   I linked to a whole bunch of Google Pixel reviews,

01:55:18   and most of them had side-by-side comparisons

01:55:21   with the iPhone 7 camera.

01:55:22   And some of them made the iPhone 7 pictures

01:55:25   look very washed out to me,

01:55:27   where I would just say the color,

01:55:28   it just seemed like they were much brighter,

01:55:30   like if somebody took a picture of a field of grass

01:55:32   side by side, that the Pixel 1 looked bright green

01:55:35   and very nice, and that the iPhone 1 looked a little drab,

01:55:38   which doesn't match my experience

01:55:41   with the iPhone camera at all,

01:55:42   and it really makes me wonder whether,

01:55:44   what processing they were doing with the images

01:55:48   to get them from here to there.

01:55:50   In my use, side by side, the colors are very, very similar

01:55:54   between the two cameras.

01:55:55   I mean, I'm not--

01:55:58   They have a nice shortcut.

01:56:00   I'm also definitely not enough of a camera person to--

01:56:05   I mean, I've said this before, but I

01:56:07   feel like the camera topped out for me at the iPhone 4.

01:56:12   My favorite feature of the whole phone, I think,

01:56:15   is that there's a system-wide shortcut where

01:56:18   if you double tap the power button,

01:56:19   it puts you in camera mode no matter what you're doing.

01:56:22   So if the phone is off and locked, double tap it,

01:56:25   and you're in that quickly.

01:56:26   I just did it, and then you're in.

01:56:28   - That's cool.

01:56:29   - If you're using the phone,

01:56:30   like you're just reading your email,

01:56:32   and you wanna take a picture of something,

01:56:34   quick double tap that button,

01:56:35   and you jump to camera mode.

01:56:37   And the camera mode does start up

01:56:38   about as fast as you could reasonably expect,

01:56:41   ready to take a picture.

01:56:42   That's a really cool feature.

01:56:45   And I think on the iPhone,

01:56:48   I've just started getting used to the lift to whatever they call it.

01:56:54   Oh yeah, raise to wake.

01:56:56   The thing where you raise to wake the phone.

01:56:57   Wake, yes.

01:56:58   And my favorite aspect of raise to wake with the iPhone 7 is you raise to wake and if you

01:57:02   want to take a picture, you just slide the lock screen to the left and you're in the

01:57:06   camera.

01:57:07   Yeah.

01:57:08   And so I've really gotten used to that.

01:57:09   So when my phone, if I see something I want to take a picture of quickly, I can take it

01:57:13   out of my pocket.

01:57:14   wake almost always turns on when I take it out of my pocket and just start sliding to

01:57:18   the left anywhere. I don't have to aim for like a little camera icon in the corner or

01:57:23   anything anymore. Love that feature. I actually think that that's probably a little better

01:57:30   than the double tap the button that this Pixel has, but when you're actually already in the

01:57:34   phone and unlocked, I think that the Pixel shortcut is actually quicker.

01:57:38   Yeah, having something universal. I mean, I guess you can swipe up and then...

01:57:43   But that's not as quick as double tapping that button.

01:57:45   No, no. And it's also, you know, sometimes doesn't work right.

01:57:49   Right. Double tapping this button always works.

01:57:51   I can't remember which app it is, but there's an app that I use. Oh, it's actually Notes.

01:57:56   I have a, like if I'm in a note, now it seems to be working. Maybe, maybe because maybe,

01:58:04   maybe that got fixed in the most recent update, but I was having a hell of a time

01:58:09   invoking the control center thing, whatever that thing is called at the bottom.

01:58:12   and notes. I did the thing where you can connect the pixel to your iPhone through

01:58:21   a cable in the initial setup and it'll slurp over what it can. And you know this,

01:58:26   I put it in a Slack that we're both members of, but it makes the

01:58:32   pixel look like a PC to the iPhone. And that's what the adapter is. The

01:58:38   adapter is like a USB A theme.

01:58:40   So the iPhone will give you the,

01:58:41   do you trust this computer prompt that it's supposed to

01:58:44   to make sure you're not getting hacked, you know.

01:58:47   - So is this just for pictures?

01:58:49   - No, it will do all sorts of things,

01:58:52   including your SMS messages and iMessages.

01:58:55   - Wow.

01:58:56   - If, well, here's the, there is a catch.

01:58:59   The catch is while you're going through the setup,

01:59:01   I have my iPhone backups encrypted.

01:59:07   they tell you that if you'd like to slurp over all that stuff,

01:59:10   you have to connect your iPhone to iTunes

01:59:13   and turn off backup encryptions or encrypt your backups.

01:59:18   And then it'll be able to do it.

01:59:20   Otherwise, it will only be able to get your pictures and maybe

01:59:24   something, one or two other things.

01:59:26   I was like, thanks, but no thanks.

01:59:28   I'm not going to--

01:59:31   I'm not that interested in it.

01:59:32   So I did have it slurp over all my pictures.

01:59:35   And it didn't get them all.

01:59:37   I don't really know what the hell happened.

01:59:40   But part of it, I think, is the fact that I've got--

01:59:43   obviously, this is what I think is the problem,

01:59:45   is that I have iCloud Photo Library on.

01:59:48   So however many tens of thousands

01:59:50   of photos I have in my overall iCloud library,

01:59:52   they're not all on my iPhone.

01:59:54   So it only grabbed some of the ones that are actually present.

01:59:57   And then the worst part was it took 1,590 of them.

02:00:04   And the day that I did this was October 20th.

02:00:08   And it gave all 1,590 of my photos

02:00:11   the date of October 20th, 2016.

02:00:15   And most of them were--

02:00:16   I think what happened--

02:00:17   I haven't done a full investigation,

02:00:19   but I think what happened is that these were images

02:00:21   where they didn't have the date in the EXIF data,

02:00:25   that the date was only the file date, the file system date.

02:00:29   My phone-- my iPhone knows exactly what date they

02:00:31   were picked on my Mac everywhere.

02:00:34   I've had these photos, like they were in my iPhoto library

02:00:39   from back when iPhoto was a thing.

02:00:41   I've had these photos, most of them were like 10 years old.

02:00:43   A lot of them were the images that,

02:00:46   from until like 2006 or so, I think around 2006,

02:00:50   I still shot a lot of images on 35 millimeter film

02:00:53   with an SLR, and then what I would do

02:00:56   is when I got those photos developed,

02:00:57   I would have the photo developed

02:00:59   and place scanned them to a CD.

02:01:02   And a lot of them were those images.

02:01:04   And I just think that they didn't put XF data in them,

02:01:06   I think, but the dates just came from the dates on the CD.

02:01:09   The files had dates, they just weren't official.

02:01:12   Anyway, Google gave me 1600 photos on that date,

02:01:16   and that wasn't good.

02:01:18   I think I would have been better off.

02:01:24   I don't know.

02:01:26   To me, the upgrade from your phone

02:01:27   is a little bit of a gimmick.

02:01:29   I don't know. I think I would have been better off setting it up fresh.

02:01:32   But it took it from a backup?

02:01:35   Or you just had to connect, you just had to turn off the encryption?

02:01:39   Oh, because it was probably the phone, your iPhone was thinking,

02:01:42   "I'm only going to give anything an encrypted backup."

02:01:45   Yes, exactly. Right, exactly.

02:01:48   So you have to, yeah. I didn't know, I never really thought about how that worked,

02:01:51   but that's apparently how it worked, and I had no interest in that.

02:01:54   I wasn't curious enough about how it worked to do that.

02:01:56   Yeah, I didn't realize that anything other than iTunes could get your, I mean, I guess it makes

02:02:01   sense if it's not encrypted, but I mean, that I've just never had any experience with that,

02:02:05   anything other than iTunes getting stuff. I mean, obviously, there's other camera apps that can grab

02:02:12   the photos. But I didn't know that things like SMS messages were also possible.

02:02:20   What else? Fingerprint sensor on the back. No good. It's inconvenient as you would…

02:02:27   **Matt Stauffer** Oh, no. I didn't… Yeah, there's one on the back.

02:02:29   **

02:02:29   **

02:02:29   **Ezra Kleinman** Yeah, it's where the Apple logo is on an iPhone.

02:02:31   It's not the worst, but you do have to fish around for it sometimes. And I can't figure out why

02:02:41   sometimes I can wake the phone by doing it, and sometimes I can't. It just is not as good as

02:02:47   as having the fingerprint sensor where Apple put it.

02:02:51   Now, could be that I've got a couple of years of iPhone

02:02:54   experience, and it's a little subjective,

02:02:56   but I don't think so.

02:03:01   What else?

02:03:02   Material.

02:03:03   The aluminum is actually more of a matte finish than Apple's.

02:03:08   It doesn't really feel as nice, but I

02:03:10   think it's less slippery, so there's a practical advantage

02:03:12   to it.

02:03:14   I think it's very--

02:03:15   I got the black one, of course.

02:03:17   I think it's very strange that they named the color

02:03:19   quite black, which is a very googly, cutesy thing,

02:03:23   when in fact it's not quite black at all.

02:03:25   In fact, honest to God, the better name for it

02:03:28   would be not quite black, because it's very, very clearly

02:03:31   just a dark gray, and the display is black.

02:03:35   So when you look at it, especially in sunlight,

02:03:37   both on the front and the rear,

02:03:39   it is definitely dark gray, not black.

02:03:42   So it seems very funny to me

02:03:45   they named it quite black. Yeah, I mean not quite black would be even funnier. Yeah. I mean, you know,

02:03:51   it'd be like a funnier joke and more accurate. Uh, what else? And other than that, it's a very nice

02:03:58   phone. I do think that this OLED display, I've compared it, the best comparison I can think of

02:04:02   is looking at Instagram, and I look at the same photos on both phones on Instagram, uh, and

02:04:08   especially in in kit, to me, in incandescent lighting, meaning photos that are taken indoors,

02:04:14   at night time.

02:04:17   I don't think it's not the camera because these images are from Instagram.

02:04:22   It's the display. It makes people look sort of yellowy.

02:04:26   The OLED display to me gets, it's a very orangey,

02:04:31   yellowy color that looks, it doesn't look like to me what a room looks like in

02:04:36   indoor lighting, whereas the iPhone does. So I'm still skeptical about OLED

02:04:41   as a replacement for LCDs on these devices. And then last but not least, I still really

02:04:49   dislike Android. Well, I hope my pictures look good on my magic

02:04:56   toolbar. I'm kind of worried about that. I will say this. I would summarize it like

02:05:03   this. If I could run iOS on this device, I would not be as happy as I am with the iPhone

02:05:09   But I this is the first Android device I've ever used where I think I'd be fine

02:05:13   And I wouldn't hate my life every day that I had to do it if I could run iOS on this device

02:05:17   It would be fine. It is by far and away the nicest Android phone I've ever used

02:05:21   That's pretty and I could you know

02:05:24   I would need an entire three hour episode of the show to go through what I don't like about it, right? Yeah

02:05:29   Well, have a good time on Thursday, all right pick up a couple of Mac books for me

02:05:36   I will try to get you a chair.

02:05:38   We in a chair.

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