The Talk Show

360: ‘Neither Fish Nor Fowl’, With Jason Snell


00:00:00   I've got too many iPads. I've got way too many iPads. I don't just have too many iPads. I have too many iPad keyboards

00:00:08   so many I've had keyboards and

00:00:12   As do you hear that as I'm sitting here?

00:00:15   They're all falling apart as I try to

00:00:18   Prop them open in a space that is not meant for

00:00:22   having

00:00:25   Multiple iPads configured. Jason, how you doing? Doing great. How are you? I'm just combobulated honestly

00:00:31   but I'm used to Apple product announcements having clarity and

00:00:34   Yeah, what a week it's been my theory is that this is

00:00:43   Pandemic and supply chain related because you got to think this is not how they drew it up

00:00:47   I think that Apple took the iPad Pro and was like we can't update it right now and they just punted on that

00:00:53   Let's just stick an M2 in it and be done because they would probably rather introduce new features at the high end of the product

00:00:59   line, right?

00:00:59   But they didn't and so we end up in in a weird situation where two features that I think

00:01:06   suggest Apple changing its mind about what an iPad should have

00:01:10   appearing on the

00:01:13   Low cost although not lowest cost because there's still the other one iPad in the line

00:01:18   I think it's great that Apple has made those changes, but if you've got an iPad Air or an iPad Pro or want to buy

00:01:23   A new one that they're not there yet and maybe they'll be there in 18 months. I don't know. Yeah, it's sort of like we're starting

00:01:29   Starting with our conclusion, but I am in complete agreement where I think that if you want to make sense out of the

00:01:37   Aspects of this week's iPad news that don't make sense it all comes

00:01:43   I think it all comes down to this is in the fall of

00:01:48   2022

00:01:49   we're starting to see more fallout from

00:01:52   spring 2020 onward of

00:01:56   remote work of

00:01:59   inability for people from Apple to travel to China or a

00:02:03   Significant reduction for obvious reasons over that time period and given the time frames that hardware gets developed on I don't think it's a stretch

00:02:11   Priority wise let's face it iPhone is

00:02:16   The top priority of the company for obvious reasons. It's the most popular product. It makes the most money and

00:02:21   The I or I foot did I say iPhone? Yeah. Yeah for a second there

00:02:28   I thought I said iPad which is the opposite point. Anyway, iPhone is number one and iPhone has

00:02:34   admirably seemingly not

00:02:37   Slipped at all even in 2020. It was only

00:02:43   arguably weeks late weeks behind which is just a phenomenal achievement for the company and

00:02:49   It makes sense that if you're going to put things in a certain order

00:02:52   That would be the order you put them

00:02:54   But I think that sort of why did the camera move on this iPad in a way that everybody wanted but didn't move on this

00:03:00   Other one that people actually use in a laptop configuration more

00:03:03   I have a little bit of a theory which is the theory of Apple's product cycles where they use the same enclosure for a few years

00:03:10   Right because you're not going to introduce people always forget this when this happens

00:03:13   But like Apple doesn't introduce a brand new industrial design for every device they introduce, right?

00:03:19   They cycle it two or three or four times

00:03:22   and I do think that part of having that strategy is that if you've got a product that you're targeting for let's say

00:03:28   2022 and

00:03:30   Then at some point in the year leading up to that you realize it's not gonna make it

00:03:36   You have a fallback which is we're going to rev the existing product another year and push that off a year, right?

00:03:43   So who's to say I mean maybe Mark Gurman knows or Ming Chi Kuo knows or somebody else might know but like who's to say?

00:03:50   that the

00:03:52   2023 iPhone

00:03:54   Wasn't and I don't know this either. I'm just saying as an example was it originally targeted for 22?

00:04:00   And then in the midst of everything in 2020 and 21 at some point they said we can't make that at that point

00:04:07   We got a third year of the previous design and they pushed it off

00:04:12   It gives you the trapdoor and I look at the iPad Pro now and I think that's basically what they did is they've got clearly

00:04:18   They know what the next iPad Pro is going to be but for whatever reason

00:04:22   They looked at this time frame and they're like we can't do it

00:04:26   and so instead we get the fourth go-round essentially of the same industrial design and

00:04:31   I think the display analyst Ross Young was saying that you can look for some OLED iPad pros in early

00:04:38   24 so it's another 18 month wait for that. Yeah, I again I'm in complete agreement and I do think it's fascinating

00:04:46   I think Apple's

00:04:48   Hardware

00:04:50   planning and

00:04:52   Engineering schedule is one of the great untold stories of the company. I've always thought this I mean and

00:04:59   Apple loves to brag that there and rightfully so very rightfully

00:05:04   So I think it is the key it's why you and I have devoted our careers to covering the company

00:05:09   What's it to me? It's what makes them most interesting is that they're the one company that is

00:05:14   Like an optical illusion they do the hardware and the software and you can look at them and say they're a hardware company that does

00:05:20   software or they're a software company that follows the

00:05:24   Alan Kay axiom that if you really care about software you do your own hardware and at their best. It's truly 50/50 and it

00:05:31   Fears but as much as they are both very much both and you can look at them through either prism

00:05:38   the

00:05:40   The nature of hardware and software is such it that it's profoundly different so that you can do things like cut features

00:05:48   from an operating system that were promised and

00:05:50   Just deliver them in point one point two point three point four all the way

00:05:55   I mean, what are we up to iOS 15 15.6?

00:05:58   I think they got to 14.8 last year almost monthly closer to monthly and at least by monthly

00:06:04   Dot releases that tend to add these new features and they can adjust that plan on the fly

00:06:11   I don't think it was their plan all along for iPad OS not to ship until the end of October

00:06:17   I think I ideally it would have like previous years shipped at the same time iOS did for iPhones

00:06:24   But they can do things like that hardware. You don't get to do stuff like that

00:06:28   You don't you can make you can bail out on something but nobody knows and it happened a year before or it's the whole thing

00:06:35   Right. You don't just get to say oh we were kind of gonna do a 48 megapixel

00:06:41   Sensor for the main camera, but it's not quite ready

00:06:45   So we'll just put another sensor in there and it's like no you don't get to do that at the last minute

00:06:49   so I would suspect that if the if there is some truth to that and maybe

00:06:53   At the end of 2019 or January and February right before March of 2020 if the idea was for

00:07:02   the

00:07:04   2022 iPhones to be called the 14 and 14 Pro to be different than what we actually saw

00:07:11   That decision to postpone came very early in kovat right like yeah

00:07:16   the shutdown happens and that time and I think

00:07:20   Tim Cook is seems

00:07:23   Wise in such ways right where when the shutdown first happened

00:07:27   I mean remember it was like I have we better you know, we're shut everything down for a couple of weeks

00:07:31   And

00:07:34   I've I of course thought that I think most people did like yeah

00:07:38   This is radical and like a four week five week shutdown of life as we know it to let this pass

00:07:45   Seemed radical right that would have that was the most crazy thing

00:07:49   disease wise pandemic wise that

00:07:51   anybody who's alive has ever experienced right you'd have to go back to the

00:07:56   Spanish flu from literally a hundred bizarrely almost exactly a hundred years ago

00:08:01   And I remember I think I've told this story on the show

00:08:04   But when they first sent the kids home from school the very first day, I think it was a Friday

00:08:09   or maybe the Friday was the last day and they're like no more school for a month and

00:08:14   Jonas came home and said yeah, we were talking in class with her

00:08:19   I forget what class the teacher taught but it wasn't the science teacher which was interesting

00:08:24   But the teacher was saying how we'll see in a month and will be on zoom and the kids were all like thinking it through

00:08:30   And they were like yeah, we're not coming back this year, you know, and I forget how they thought about it

00:08:35   But they've kind of figured it out and their intuitive sense that no if it's bad enough to do this isn't going this isn't gonna

00:08:41   Go away in a month and they kind of talked their teacher into it

00:08:43   And I was like, you know that that's really insightful because you kids don't have

00:08:48   Decades of this is what normal life is like

00:08:52   Preconceptions which

00:08:56   Overriding your your you've got your priors that you're taking into account that they don't have to take into account and say no

00:09:02   Why wouldn't it just take us out for the whole year? Yeah, and he talked me into it. I was like damn you're right

00:09:07   This is gonna this is gonna be longer and I wouldn't be surprised if Tim Cook sort of had that foresight and Jeff Williams and

00:09:13   The other big planners in that very early by let's say the end of April

00:09:18   They were like we need to

00:09:19   Servitize our plans and make sure that we've got a 2022 iPhone and this that the other whatever products

00:09:27   We absolutely need to ship that we know that we can do even if we're severely

00:09:32   Restricted in these ways so I wouldn't be surprised because that would have been and that timeline would work

00:09:37   Right, like I think and you could certainly and I don't have any information like that's just pure theory

00:09:43   But I think that is always part of their

00:09:46   planning because once you have that situation where you keep a piece of hardware and just do some basic updates and then you

00:09:53   Revise it every two three four years

00:09:55   It gives you the luxury to say let's do one more cycle before we get that new thing

00:10:01   All right, and I don't know whether they did that in the iPhone because they have done three year cycles before

00:10:06   the

00:10:08   iPad Pro I'm gonna say it's possible

00:10:10   That was one of those

00:10:11   Ideas where they're just like look not now is not the time and you end up with everything kind of out of sync like it is

00:10:16   I would say the other one that I'll throw it out

00:10:19   There is the iMac right where it seems kind of weird that there's only the one iMac and that according to Mark Gurman

00:10:25   There's not even gonna be an m2 iMac and they're gonna just leave it for m3 and like that feels like another one of those

00:10:32   things where they probably had a nice chart in 2020 or 2019 that said here is our

00:10:38   rolling out of all of our products and

00:10:41   Some of that stuff got taken off the board because of kovat and not like we're not gonna do that product

00:10:47   But more like that product needs to wait a year or two

00:10:48   And so when you look at these products individually, you're like, oh, that's a perfectly reasonable product the iPads

00:10:53   I'm talking about but then you look at the iPad as a product line and you go. Well, wait a second

00:10:58   Yeah, why I mean there are some weird choices in the individual products that I'm sure we're gonna talk about

00:11:03   But like that's the big picture thing

00:11:05   It's like why over here and not over there and they're never gonna say but I suspect the answer is

00:11:10   Because we didn't revise that product for reasons and so you get to see it here first

00:11:15   Yeah

00:11:16   My gut feeling is the iPad Pro definitely or not definitely but it would be the most likely to have suffered such a fate

00:11:22   These new iPad pros I kind of suspect that this year's iPhones probably are exactly as they were planned all along

00:11:29   and there are some you know, like the dynamic island and that the hole punch cut out the pros getting the a16 the

00:11:35   48-megapixel sensor there's a lot in there. So I kind of think

00:11:40   strategically the fact that the iPhone 14 non pro is

00:11:45   Much more it truly an incremental up update could be called the 14 s or 13 s

00:11:52   Yes for in previous terms where it really just sort of got what an extra GPU

00:11:58   Core didn't even get a new chip, right? And I think strategically that's something they wanted. They've been moving towards

00:12:06   For a decade trying to get a new super tier and a new phones every year

00:12:13   that aren't called Pro but that are new and

00:12:16   But the iPads, I don't know also about the phone

00:12:20   I think the most likely thing and we have

00:12:22   Occasionally seen something like this is like there are a lot of rumors out there about the next iPhone, right?

00:12:27   The iPhone 15 which is ridiculous you often last year. I think it actually lapped to the iPhone 14. Yeah 13

00:12:32   They were talking about the 14 the 13 wasn't out yet

00:12:35   but it you know, and again, I'm not saying that it's gonna happen and I don't have any inside information, but like

00:12:41   Anytime between now and like January there could be a report that's that says

00:12:47   Actually, the iPhone 15 isn't gonna have that periscope camera system and all of that and I would read that as being

00:12:56   That same kind of recalibration which is it's if you have an issue when you're like we can't do it in this time frame in

00:13:02   Your Apple when you're not gonna not do an iPhone. So the answer is gonna be what's the fallback? The fallback is another iteration of

00:13:08   The 14 hardware and I don't think that's their plan

00:13:12   They have been on the last couple of cycles a three year cycle for this stuff

00:13:17   But if I'm Apple and if I'm Tim Cook, I want to be prudent you can't not do a phone

00:13:22   So you gotta have a fallback and that's the nice thing about this approach of having the same body get reused for a few years

00:13:28   It's like the MacBook Air at m2 like it's taken care of there'll be an m3 MacBook Air almost certainly

00:13:34   But it's not gonna look any different because they just did that

00:13:36   It's good to go for a while and the iPad Pro is is old and it's fine

00:13:41   It was so far ahead when it came out. That's fine. But it is for four cycles through now, I think so

00:13:47   Yeah, yeah 2018 right the Brooklyn event is when they introduced it, right?

00:13:52   Which was the same one that had the first retina MacBook Air, which was the MacBook Air

00:13:58   That just got replaced exactly. So the MacBook Air got new hardware

00:14:03   I iPad Pro did not did not all right

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00:17:23   Alright, where do we start? Should we talk Apple TV first or save it? I mean, that's what everybody's talking about

00:17:29   Apple TV 4k, maybe we should talk about TV 4k first just this is knock it out of the park

00:17:36   I will say I'm actually very very happy with all but one aspect of this week's Apple TV hardware

00:17:42   Number one, they have simplified the lineup completely

00:17:45   They stopped selling the completely outdated ridiculous 1080 version which makes me wonder why they're still calling it Apple TV 4k

00:17:53   I guess because once they started calling the one that does 4k the Apple TV 4k

00:18:00   And then maybe by calling it Apple TV 4k it helps to differentiate it from Apple TV the service

00:18:07   Maybe so. Yeah, and the app that's something

00:18:09   So at least for this show I will refer to the hardware as Apple TV 4k and they got rid of the other ones right now

00:18:17   They're only selling two models. There's a 64 gigabyte model. That is a hundred and thirty dollars

00:18:24   129 and Apple's parlance I'm rounding up and then for 150 bucks you can get a

00:18:29   128 gigabyte version that adds an Ethernet port and

00:18:35   This is the part. This is my gripe. It is also the only the hundred fifty dollar version includes support

00:18:43   for the new thread

00:18:45   home

00:18:46   Automation, I don't know. Would you call it home smart home standard thread radio?

00:18:50   So it's part of the it's a thread smart home networking standard basically

00:18:55   And I'm I don't know what I'm looking forward to that and this is where I get confused and I tried to look into it

00:19:01   Thread is I don't know what the difference between thread and matter are matter is yeah. Do you understand?

00:19:10   Yeah, some some matter is basically a new standard for device intercommunication. That's agreed

00:19:16   It's based on homekit actually, but it's it's an open thing. It's supported by

00:19:20   Google and Amazon and Apple and everybody and the idea is we're not gonna have those wars anymore where it's like oh

00:19:25   I bought a fan but it only works with Alexa and so now I can't use it with my homekit stuff and like that's all

00:19:31   Gonna go away

00:19:32   Thread is a very particular thing thread is a radio and it is

00:19:37   Used because not every device wants to be on or needs to be on Wi-Fi

00:19:43   But they do need to talk

00:19:45   Right if it's a smart home device and you see this a lot historically in all the devices you would buy where you'd have to

00:19:51   buy like a little

00:19:52   box that you attach to your network via ethernet and plug in and then like I like Phillips-Hugh has those and the Lutron Casita has

00:20:00   One of those yeah, and the idea there is that it's not on your Wi-Fi network, right?

00:20:04   It's got its own little radio network that it's using often more

00:20:08   reliable than your Wi-Fi to talk to its little devices and go back and forth and act as the middleman with your actual like IP

00:20:16   network

00:20:17   So thread some of those devices are thread radios like it's and there's like Zigbee and there's like a bunch of different things

00:20:24   and so thread I believe is the

00:20:26   one that everybody sort of agreed is going to be the

00:20:30   Standard that is used by in the matter world that we're about to enter into for these

00:20:35   communications that are not happening on Wi-Fi

00:20:38   And so that's the idea is you build thread into stuff and it allows

00:20:44   You don't have to have a hub with like a thread radio in it

00:20:47   It will do the talking for you and the HomePod mini has a thread radio in it, which is kind of interesting

00:20:53   So this is in the and actually the old Apple TV 4k hardware had it in it

00:20:58   So what really is happening here is they've pulled thread and ethernet out of the Apple TV 4k

00:21:05   For the lower price model that 129 model

00:21:08   so matter is like the consortium and

00:21:11   Thread is the wireless protocol from matter a well

00:21:17   It's not from matter

00:21:18   But it's the one matter uses and it's a wireless protocol right because Wi-Fi is also a wireless protocol

00:21:24   But yeah, the idea there is that you have a bunch of devices that I think it's lower power

00:21:27   I think it's more reliable. I think it might have even have longer range

00:21:31   I don't actually know all the details of thread versus Wi-Fi, but that's the idea is they can talk to each other on

00:21:37   This thread system and you've got a bunch of devices out there that already support thread radios

00:21:43   And so you can talk to them and they don't have to get an IP address and be on your Wi-Fi instead

00:21:48   They kind of like radio back and just say here I am using thread. So I have the Lutron stuff

00:21:53   I think it's caseta because I have the little

00:21:56   Repeaters I have like two of them I think in the house and we have our lights on Lutron and our shades and they work

00:22:03   Great, I would say as a wireless standard. It is the most reliable wireless technology

00:22:09   I've ever used in my life of and I've got a hero home network here that I'm very happy with and

00:22:16   Actually just found out that

00:22:18   My original two of my hero stations are the originals from like when there was only one

00:22:25   One euro base station and they just finally dropped software support for it. It's like you're not gonna get software updates

00:22:32   So I guess I got to update my network. My Wi-Fi is great and I really this the having

00:22:37   Eros that I have plugged in Ethernet around the house have made the group the most reliable Wi-Fi I've ever had with great performance

00:22:45   throughout the house

00:22:48   Some Bluetooth stuff that I have is starting to get pretty good like my air pods are

00:22:54   Have been air pods work over Bluetooth and have been very reliable for me and I love them

00:23:00   They're one of my favorite products that I own period but none of them work as reliably as the Lutron stuff

00:23:06   I mean, I never I've never have

00:23:08   Rebooted the little repeaters for my stuff ever. I've never I don't it's they just run and run and

00:23:16   Hate having to install little plastic boxes that use power and are attached to Ethernet

00:23:22   But I can't argue with the results. So the idea the dream here, so I think thread evolved out of Zigbee

00:23:28   Which was one of these radio standards, but I think that's the idea is

00:23:32   You want a more kind of rock-solid?

00:23:35   smart device backhaul that isn't

00:23:39   Relying on Wi-Fi where all your computers are using it

00:23:44   Something that doesn't need to have that much

00:23:46   overhead and that I think

00:23:47   Thread will also do mesh networking and the idea is that the thread stuff can be put into all sorts of devices like an Apple TV

00:23:53   Like an ero I think ero has that like the home pod mini so that you can talk to all of these devices

00:23:59   And they're not hanging around on your Wi-Fi if they don't have to which is I think actually good for your Wi-Fi, too

00:24:06   And you run into problems with these devices as we add more and more devices where it's like how well

00:24:11   How do you even get the damn thing on your Wi-Fi if your Wi-Fi has a password and I guess thread in addition to?

00:24:18   Just being meant for these small low-powered devices gets around that too. I don't know what the security at you know

00:24:24   How do you keep people who walk by your house from?

00:24:26   Screwing around with your thread stuff. I don't know but you know it's all it just like with Bluetooth

00:24:31   I think there's like some validation that goes yeah, because right now a lot of these smart home devices get on by

00:24:36   Bluetooth basically you stand there with your device and running their app and you it says or the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi

00:24:43   They make their own like temporary Wi-Fi network one of those and you basically say here's what my Wi-Fi

00:24:48   Network is and here's the password and you send it to it

00:24:51   And it says thank you and then it basically reboots attaches to your Wi-Fi and the setup process continues

00:24:56   So I'd imagine it would be pretty similar here

00:24:58   But I mean the good news after all this and it's gonna be I think it's gonna be shaky for a year or more

00:25:04   And there's a lot of products. They're gonna be not quite compatible that are gonna be interesting, but in the long run

00:25:09   I'm so glad that arms race is over right where it's literally like Apple doesn't want to play with Google

00:25:15   Who doesn't want to play with Amazon and so everybody's products are kind of a Swiss cheese kind of like oh?

00:25:21   I support this one, but not that one and I support this one, but not that one

00:25:25   It's so frustrating

00:25:25   And I think they realize that they were actually gonna

00:25:27   Not be able to sell some our home products because people got fed up with the incompatibility stuff

00:25:33   So I hope that this is all kind of worked out now

00:25:36   But it is interesting that then and Apple turns around and says well you don't really need a thread radio in this cheap Apple TV

00:25:42   It's fine

00:25:44   Well, you know it wouldn't be a

00:25:46   Jason Snell appearance on the talk show if we don't throw on our old man

00:25:51   Hats and talk about it. I do it talk about the 90s, but it does remind me of computer networking

00:25:59   pre

00:26:01   TCP IP

00:26:03   Taking the tidal wave that just wiped everything out, but it this will be bizarre to people who are younger than us, but

00:26:10   There was a time

00:26:13   when

00:26:15   All computer networking was proprietary and nothing talked to each other and and

00:26:21   the Apple advantage was the same as you'd think it was where it was the easiest where it was local talk and you could just

00:26:29   buy things and

00:26:32   Connect Macs together and they saw each other pretty

00:26:35   Automatically and would show up and would have like normal looking names like your computer Macs would have

00:26:41   Names that had spaces in them and capital letters and as many characters as you wanted, you know

00:26:48   You could set up like a network like at the student newspaper or something like that and give every Mac a sensible name

00:26:54   Or you could give them playful names like Spock and Kirk and or go Star Wars or something like that

00:27:01   and they just show up but of course if you put a PC on the network had no chance of

00:27:05   talking to anything and

00:27:07   Vice versa you couldn't just bring a Mac into a PC environment and there were things like what novel

00:27:13   I mean geez, there's a company that went away

00:27:15   But that was like a career track where you could become a novel certified network engineer

00:27:20   And you'd look in the mid 90s. You'd look in the the one ads which is how you'd find a job

00:27:27   You'd get the Sunday newspaper. I mean how old am I sounding here?

00:27:31   But this is I'm not exaggerating the way you'd find a job is you'd find you'd buy the load the Sunday newspaper

00:27:37   For in your town, which is super thick and would have an entire section

00:27:41   that was just not just classified ads but the help wanted ads and

00:27:45   You'd go to the you're a computer nerd technology section and there'd be all sorts of ads that were you

00:27:51   Required to be a novel network certified engineer to take the job all of that just

00:27:58   It was a nightmare and there are all sorts of things other standards remember token ring

00:28:02   There were all these terms and never understood any of that stuff

00:28:05   I never understood it either and and then at some point they're like everybody's doing IP networking. That's what we're doing now

00:28:11   But yeah, the my first job at Mac user magazine back in the day we had it was all local talk

00:28:16   We didn't have with file servers and there was Ethernet and all of that. But when I started

00:28:21   None of the computers were on the internet, right? You couldn't get to the internet

00:28:27   There was a WAN connection a wide area network connection, but it was like for our

00:28:31   Email with the other branches of Ziff Davis

00:28:37   But it was all like they had a line

00:28:39   They probably had like a digital line that went to New York or something

00:28:43   But there was no there was no internet and I remember when they put in the Gateway

00:28:48   But like when I started I was all still finishing up my grad school at Cal and so I had a dial-up account

00:28:53   And I remember very distinctly bringing in my power book and dialing into the internet

00:28:57   From my laptop next to my Mac user computer. That was not on the internet

00:29:02   That's what it was like. So anyway, are you saying that hopefully when we get through this matter thing?

00:29:07   Everything's gonna make more sense and well like for the last few years

00:29:11   Well, yeah that the that the interop layer should be open and everybody should disagree to it and it should be good, right?

00:29:18   I mean, that's that is a that sounds obvious, but it's a big but right

00:29:23   I mean, there's all sorts of there have been all sorts of floated standards that are

00:29:28   No good

00:29:29   and so should be and typically Apple is one of the companies that

00:29:33   Wouldn't doesn't want to participate just because it's there and it's a standard and has lots of adherence if it's no good

00:29:40   They don't want any part of it

00:29:41   But the way that getting stuff Wi-Fi is the perfect example, right that Wi-Fi is just Wi-Fi and yes

00:29:47   It keeps moving forward and there's Wi-Fi 6 and now there's Wi-Fi 6e

00:29:51   which only certain devices participate in but

00:29:53   on the large part

00:29:56   Overall Wi-Fi has been an exemplary open standard right where it keeps evolving. It keeps getting better and

00:30:02   if you have a thing no matter what it is a computer a phone a

00:30:08   Set-top box that you plug into your TV or a set of lights from Elgato

00:30:15   To become a youtuber and they want to get on your network. It's all just Wi-Fi, right?

00:30:20   Your Wi-Fi is my Wi-Fi and as long as the number of your Wi-Fi is compatible stuff just works, right?

00:30:26   Something like that for home networking seems just what the doctor ordered and I guess it's hopefully it was inevitable

00:30:32   But yeah, you're right though that like when you're like buying

00:30:35   Oh

00:30:35   I just want to buy we bought him a couple years ago because as people may know follow me and my wife on Twitter

00:30:42   My wife likes to have multiple Christmas trees. God help me

00:30:45   So a smart socket for Christmas tree lights so you can just tell one of your dinguses to turn on all the Christmas tree lights

00:30:52   Or turn them off as you're leaving the house or going to bed is an enormous convenience

00:30:57   And it used to be you go shopping and you'd see this one works with Alexa

00:31:02   This one works with Apple HomeKit

00:31:04   But you can't find one that works with both and it's like this why this this is ridiculous

00:31:10   So hopefully that's over and theoretically I had Mike Hurley on upgrade a couple weeks ago

00:31:15   Walk me through a nice explainer article actually that I think the verge did about matter

00:31:20   But one of the things that there's stuff in there that is is if it works is even better, right?

00:31:25   Like it's the idea that you can use the app that comes with it or you can use your preference

00:31:30   preferential app and then you can sort of like pick and also they have the idea that

00:31:35   There are like matter clients and matter controllers and some of the stuff

00:31:39   This is all supposed to not be things that regular people need to work

00:31:42   But on the back end it has things like the idea that they did the devices matter devices can talk to each other

00:31:49   which really opens a lot of potential because for example

00:31:52   The dream is if you have a if you have a device that like when this device gets activated do something on another device

00:32:00   With HomeKit the HomeKit hub sits there sees that the status of one device has changed and then tells the other device to change

00:32:07   in the ideal matter setup

00:32:10   the one device

00:32:12   either sees that the other device has changed directly or

00:32:15   That first device tells the other device because it knows it's watching. I just changed and then it changes and there's no

00:32:22   middleman required for that sort of thing all the devices sort of know to talk to each other and

00:32:29   Again, how will this work in practice?

00:32:31   Who knows but it sounds like it could be really cool and like a much better system of

00:32:37   Managing these things then we've had up to now. So I hope that's what happens

00:32:41   well, what do you think can you explain why you would want to have a home hub like a

00:32:47   $150 Apple TV 4k or a home pod mini

00:32:53   That has thread support. What is the advantage of having such a thing in your house? That's actually a yeah

00:32:59   I think the idea is that you need something with a thread radio to get that stuff on the to talk to it from your

00:33:05   Other devices right whether they're on your local network or whether you're over the internet somewhere

00:33:10   So somebody has to channel between them

00:33:13   So ideally if you've got some device in your home, that is a thread radio in it

00:33:16   That's also on Wi-Fi

00:33:18   It can be the one to channel that stuff and if you don't have that

00:33:21   Then you probably have to buy one of those little dinguses that that talks that's like a standalone thing

00:33:27   But that's why they want to embed thread radios and a bunch of stuff like your eero or your home pod or your Apple TV

00:33:33   So that it can be the guiding light there. But yeah, that's the idea is that I ideally you wouldn't

00:33:38   I think the ideal is that you wouldn't have a single point of failure

00:33:41   So that if your Apple TV gets in a weird state your because this has happened to me Apple TV gets in a weird state

00:33:48   And suddenly none of my smart home stuff works because it was acting as the hub and like that's no good, right?

00:33:54   So in theory they're talking to each other there

00:33:57   There's redundancy there and things don't all fall apart if your hub dies

00:34:01   but again, this is all like the matter doesn't launch for another couple of weeks and then there's gonna be a

00:34:06   Process after that, but I'm at least optimistic that it's gonna be a better situation than we're in now, right?

00:34:13   It's like it's not a bad thing to get a 5g compatible device

00:34:19   Before 5g is totally rolled out because 5g's got legs and two years down the road

00:34:26   It's better off like for example our home security panel the thing that you type the numbers on when we first got the house

00:34:34   It was it was I think it was 3g it has anyway

00:34:38   It has cellular backup just in case like the Wi-Fi goes out so we can still communicate

00:34:42   And we had to forget if I don't even think we had to pay but they had to come and replace it last summer

00:34:48   because

00:34:50   The 3g network was going going away. So they updated it to a new thing

00:34:55   So it's always better to get something with the future ahead of it. Even if it's not there's not a compelling story now

00:35:01   I just think overall though. It's the Ethernet port that seems like something you pay 20 bucks for

00:35:07   Thread support boy. I mean if it's real

00:35:10   I mean if it's really in a five dollar component or something

00:35:14   I guess it makes sense that it's part of the $20 upgrade but I don't know that just seems really annoying to me

00:35:20   It just seems like if you like if the story was if you have a product called Apple TV 4k, you've got a thread

00:35:27   compatible home hub that is so much simpler than

00:35:30   Did you buy the more expensive one?

00:35:33   Right, right or do you have another?

00:35:36   Do you have another do you have a home pod mini? Do you have any Euro do you have some other thread?

00:35:40   Radio somewhere and then you have to walk through that whole thing

00:35:44   And then if you find out you don't and you bought the 129 Apple TV, you're like, oh man, what do you what do I do?

00:35:49   Now do I buy some other well especially sent and and again the Ethernet could be I think for a lot of people I have Ethernet

00:35:56   throughout my house

00:35:56   but I actually don't have my Apple TV on Ethernet because I have terrific Wi-Fi in the living room and it's actually I don't have

00:36:03   Ethernet in the

00:36:04   The place where I hide all the boxes like the TiVo and the Apple TV

00:36:09   And I'm sure a lot of people are like that too

00:36:11   If you have really solid Wi-Fi where you're gonna put your Apple TV

00:36:14   Why wire it if it's or if you don't have an Ethernet Jack where you want to put it?

00:36:19   Even if your Wi-Fi is not ideal a lot of people might look at it and say well, I definitely I don't need the storage

00:36:25   I have no I don't you know, I never store anything on my Apple TV and I don't use Ethernet

00:36:29   So why not save 20 bucks and I could see that and I don't know what thread is. I've never heard of it

00:36:35   So I could see people

00:36:37   buying the hundred thirty dollar one for very reasonable reasons and

00:36:44   Coming to regret it a year or two and that from now when thread is more of a big deal and they're like, ah crap

00:36:49   I don't have anything else. I don't know. So that's the one thing

00:36:52   I'm a little annoyed by and of course, I saved the best for last done did it on?

00:36:57   the remote control yes now has

00:37:01   USB-c instead of lightning

00:37:05   This to me is big news not because it is a particularly big deal how one charges a remote control that

00:37:13   Me as a daily user of Apple TV seemingly only charges like once a year

00:37:18   I think weeks go by it's definitely several months and I use it every day as well

00:37:24   It's my primary devices in Apple TV for all my entertainment and weeks if not months go by definitely months plugging in months for me

00:37:31   So it's not that it needs to charge at a particularly high rate of speed

00:37:36   but it is the fact that switching something like that from lightning to USB-C has been the

00:37:43   Canary and the coal mine. I've been waiting for as the okay for sure

00:37:48   iPhone is going to USB-C. Yeah, all lightning stuff is leaving, right?

00:37:54   This is the this is one of the first indications this and that iPad really are

00:37:57   Good indications that like lightning is being beaten out of the product line and the one that had me going

00:38:03   Hmm, maybe not was last month with the new

00:38:10   AirPods Pro 2 the case was still lightning and

00:38:14   That was it the ones that to me were are

00:38:18   Going to be the tell are the not the computers but the peripherals things like the remote control for Apple TV

00:38:28   AirPods cases

00:38:31   Trackpad and mouse right trackpad and mouse trying to think what else there is that Apple has that charges by lightning

00:38:37   The trackpad mouse and keyboard the AirPods cases those are the control and yeah

00:38:42   We're waiting for them to change to me was a tell so I think that the reason the AirPods case didn't

00:38:50   but the remote did is that

00:38:52   Apple doesn't update the Apple TV every year

00:38:55   and so this is going to be the Apple TV for I would guess at least two years possibly three and

00:39:01   So they want that this is a remote control. That's

00:39:07   Going to be on sale for years to come. I think that with AirPods they see

00:39:13   Obviously AirPods work with all of your Apple devices and in fact as Bluetooth

00:39:18   Headphones they work with other devices, too

00:39:22   You compare them with an Android phone or a PC or anything that could use Bluetooth headphones

00:39:27   But I think that Apple sees the iPhone as the primary

00:39:32   Server of audio to AirPods and I don't think it's a coincidence. That's it was the iPhone event where they

00:39:39   Unveiled the AirPods 2 Pro 2 and as so I think so long as the iPhones are on

00:39:46   lightning they want to keep the

00:39:49   AirPod cases on lightning and if let's just say as a lot of people expect including me next September

00:39:57   the iPhones 15 have light or USB C ports or maybe just the

00:40:04   15 Pro has lightning or I mean USB C and the regular 15 still has lightning then they'll just

00:40:11   Silently start shipping AirPods to cases that have a USB C port instead of lightning

00:40:18   Even though they're still the AirPods

00:40:20   Pro second generation. They'll just change the case without changing the AirPods and

00:40:27   those of us who bought them a year early can either curse ourselves or just

00:40:31   Charge them with magsafe if they don't want to don't want to carry lightning cables around exactly right and it'll all turn over

00:40:38   Yeah, also that's an easy one, right?

00:40:39   Because it's not even the product that you have to modify it's the case and they already did that when they add a wireless charging

00:40:44   to the AirPods case they can take keep AirPods Pro 2 exactly as they are and just

00:40:48   Drop into the production line a new version of the case that has USB C instead and no one will even notice

00:40:55   No, I'd say the only disappointing thing I have about that the remote is that I really was hoping that they would put one

00:41:01   wideband thing in there like it's in the

00:41:04   Like it's in the AirPods case so that you can find it or maybe even a speaker like in the AirPods case

00:41:10   I'm sure it's an issue of battery life and the thinness of that little aluminum thing and that like the air like the iPod Pro

00:41:17   They didn't really want to redesign the whole enclosure

00:41:20   They just did as little as they possibly could but that's the thing that I lose

00:41:25   I just typed in our shared note remote colon USB C and no find my yeah

00:41:30   And it was funny because over the weekend we Amy and I I might I don't know whose fault it was

00:41:36   although it wasn't mine, but the remote control got lost and

00:41:40   I said to her, you know, I don't think this will be a problem

00:41:44   Starting next week because they're coming out with a new Apple TV

00:41:48   and I'll bet that the remote has find my support and she was like

00:41:52   Why didn't they do that last time and I said I can tell you don't listen to my podcast

00:41:56   I've been asking that ever since it came out and yet here we are and still no find mine and

00:42:03   it's very strange especially since they make the damn thing as small and thin and right you can have a

00:42:10   Sofa with the tightest tolerance between the cushions that a comfortable sofa can have and the Apple TV

00:42:19   Is seemingly designed to slip right through them. Yep

00:42:23   Slide right in there. That's another I guess annoyance

00:42:27   But because I boy that really seemed it just seems like it is the one thing that I misplaced the most, you know

00:42:32   And because every once in a while, it's not in a sofa cushion. It's like and this was my move

00:42:37   I will admit my move is to just have it in hand as I get up and go to the kitchen

00:42:42   Yep to get some snacks or something. That's my number one move is like where where is it? Where is it?

00:42:46   Oh, it's laying on the counter in the kitchen, isn't it? Right because I took it out in one hand and then realized I was

00:42:52   doing something that you know

00:42:53   Like getting a bottle that needs to be opened with two hands and put it down and poured a thing and brought some

00:42:59   Pirate booty out or whatever the snack of the evening is and where the hell's the remote I left it in the other room

00:43:05   would boy that would be nice to have but we don't

00:43:08   Otherwise though. I don't really have any complaints about the remote. It's I'm used to it. I like it

00:43:14   Yeah, still not sure I would have put the buttons in the order that they put them. But yeah, but I've gotten

00:43:21   Acclimated to it overall. I know some people complain about the side button that they hit the site the one that you do to talk

00:43:27   to the yeah

00:43:28   To the device, but I don't hit it accidentally. So I

00:43:32   Do sometimes but it's not enough again. I don't love

00:43:36   My big problem with it. Is that although I really do like having that touch surface on the button

00:43:41   there are times when I just try to press the button and it thinks that I'm

00:43:44   Swiping and so I end up in a different clicking the wrong thing that that it's a tricky thing

00:43:50   and then also they introduce that whole idea of like touching and holding on the ring and doing like a scrub and that seems to

00:43:56   Be something that everybody's just given up on that. Yeah, do that gesture at all

00:44:00   So it's but it's usable in in a way that the old one was less usable

00:44:04   And while I think that they could probably do an even better one at some point

00:44:09   It sure doesn't with this USB C change. It sure doesn't seem like they're gonna anytime soon. Yeah. What do you think about the pricing?

00:44:15   I know that's been a years-long

00:44:17   Source of complaint right these other companies sell these

00:44:21   Fire sticks and Roku's is that how you pronounce it?

00:44:25   I wrote that are I don't know 60 bucks or something like that or less, but you know

00:44:29   Let's say for decent 4k support half the price. I

00:44:31   Think these prices are much more in line with what Apple TV should be. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny

00:44:38   A lot of it because there was a market share argument, right? Which is never what you should really make with Apple, which is

00:44:44   There's a $50 $30 4k stick. So Apple should do that

00:44:48   but the thing about their sort of years-long process of getting Apple TV stuff into TVs and onto streaming boxes and it's basically

00:44:56   Everywhere if you buy a new something it will almost certainly support Apple's right TV stuff

00:45:02   Well that eliminates it as an issue. So all you're left with is

00:45:08   The Apple TV is more expensive because it's a better if not premium a better experience than a low-end

00:45:15   Streaming stick the interface is nicer and it's faster and more responsive

00:45:20   And I think both of those are true to a point like I think it should be better

00:45:25   I don't think Apple TV is good enough

00:45:27   I think that it has some serious interface problems in some areas and the fact that tvOS just got updated and nothing changed

00:45:34   Gives me some hesitation Amazon recently did a UI refresh. That is is it really nice

00:45:40   But also having I've got a Roku a low-end Roku box a low-end fire stick

00:45:45   I bought a low-end Roku box for my mom. I can tell you those cheap boxes are bad

00:45:49   They work, but they are slow the interfaces are clunky, but they work right and when I use my Apple TV

00:45:56   I'm like, it's really nice and that's that again

00:46:00   I think Apple has a lot more work to do on the interface

00:46:04   Joe

00:46:05   Rosen steel has written about it at length on his own blog and on six colors and like all over the place like and he's right

00:46:11   There are lots of things that Apple is not doing well enough and Apple's entry into sports

00:46:16   I think might be the thing that finally spurs them to do better because they don't handle a lot of stuff like what's on right now

00:46:22   What can I watch right now?

00:46:24   They have some of that but it's not really well designed and I think that they're a little still a little too app centric

00:46:30   but

00:46:31   all that said I

00:46:33   Can see the Apple TV hardware now in a way that it makes more sense as an Apple product which is it's nicer

00:46:40   like in the end you're paying more because it's nicer because it's got a faster processor and a nicer remote and everything is smooth and

00:46:49   You don't have to wait every time you click for another thing to load which is what happens on my mom's Roku because it was

00:46:55   20 bucks at Walmart and the great thing about it. It was 20 bucks at Walmart

00:46:58   The bad thing about it is it's not very good and the Amazon stuff is nice

00:47:02   but it's also full of commercial garbage because it's Amazon and they're trying to sell you stuff so

00:47:07   It is a much better argument to make that yes Apple TV costs more not as much as it did

00:47:14   but still cost more than the competition but

00:47:17   You get something that's nicer and a lot of people will point out also that Apple is not as likely to be tracking your

00:47:25   Your movements and habits as something like Roku or even Amazon and or Google

00:47:31   So like that that right that feels a lot better to say

00:47:34   What's Apple TV doing at 129 and the answer is it you pay more but it's nicer

00:47:40   Like that's a very Apple approach. I think yeah, I agree

00:47:44   And as you know, you probably are getting tracked in a lot

00:47:48   In fact, I know you're getting tracked in a lot of ways within the apps you use right and that you go into Hulu

00:47:55   And Hulu is tracking whatever you've watched and I'm sure they're taking all the metrics you want

00:48:00   But at least you know, you're only doing that because you're choosing to use Hulu at the system at the system level

00:48:05   There's no tracking and I don't think anybody else can say that right

00:48:09   I mean you can I have I mean I have a Roku TV and you can opt out of a bunch of stuff and people have

00:48:14   Done network traffic analysis. I think that some of that like it's all spying on you is a little overblown

00:48:20   But not entirely overblown, right?

00:48:22   this is one of those cases where if you're like, I don't like the idea that I'm buying a cheap box that's being subsidized by either

00:48:28   Amazon's commercial efforts or

00:48:30   Having something that's running all the time

00:48:32   That's analyzing everything I do and that makes me uncomfortable put that on the pile of reasons to get an Apple TV

00:48:37   But it is but you're not gonna you're not gonna get an Apple TV for 20 bucks at Walmart

00:48:41   You're not well, and I think you're and I but I think you're exactly right too that the lower end

00:48:46   sub hundred dollar

00:48:48   Things that you plug in whether they're a stick or a box. They're all getting eaten by the built-in stuff

00:48:54   That's it built into TVs and as slow as the upgrade cycle is for replacing actual TVs

00:48:59   It's at the point now where it you can definitely see I see from extended family members how it's eaten into it where it

00:49:06   Five six seven eight year even a ten year upgrade cycle for TVs is a long period of time, but it does happen and

00:49:15   There I don't see the room for $50

00:49:18   This is to plug in the TV when the it they're no better than the one that's built in and you already you know

00:49:26   So why do it? So yeah, I have a TCL 4k HDR TV

00:49:30   It's great and it's a Roku TV and you know it you buy you buy any of these things

00:49:35   You're gonna get something that is yes. It is a cut above

00:49:39   Like my mom's Roku box for 25 bucks, whatever it was at Walmart like the one embedded in my TV is way better

00:49:46   like so so yes, and then it's I'm gonna have it for whatever five or ten years and and and it'll get older but like

00:49:54   So many people are gonna buy a new TV and then throw their box away because those cheap streamer boxes aren't or they're there just to

00:50:01   Enable and my mom's got a plasma TV. It doesn't have any

00:50:05   Streaming support whatever so that's why I bought her that Roku box and everybody out there is now gonna say Jason

00:50:10   Why aren't you giving her an Apple TV? It's like, alright, you're probably right. I probably should

00:50:13   I'm gonna have to find a spare Apple TV and and give it to her

00:50:18   But but yeah that that is that that stuff's all going away right because if she got another TV today

00:50:24   She wouldn't need a box

00:50:26   It would the TVs the TVs got it and that and that may leaves once again leaves Apple

00:50:31   In this position is the sort of like but if you want something nicer, which you know is quintessential Apple, right?

00:50:38   All right

00:50:38   Let's take a break here and I'm going to tell you about another great company one that is fueled this podcast to some extent

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00:54:22   Dot-com slash the talk show. All right time for iPads, I guess we'll go from the bottom. Sorry Apple TV fans. We're done

00:54:29   so

00:54:32   The 10th generation iPad does the new one does not replace the ninth generation because the price is higher, right?

00:54:40   You can get a ninth generation one that starts at three twenty nine and the new one starts at four forty nine

00:54:46   That's it. That's not a minor difference. That's a worth keeping the old one around difference. That's over a hundred bucks

00:54:52   Yeah, and like the MacBook Air it feel keeping the m1 Mac

00:54:55   We're around it feels very much like they know that they've got not only generally in public but probably

00:55:00   constitutionally in especially education, but maybe even in businesses too. They've got customers who will not accept

00:55:06   1199 MacBook Air will not accept for 49 iPad. So what do you do? Well your modern Apple you just keep the old

00:55:13   and introduce your new one at a higher price point, which is why I've been thinking of this tenth generation iPad as

00:55:20   the education iPad of

00:55:22   2024 right like it'll get there

00:55:25   It'll come down in price eventually, but right now the education iPad is the iPad 9

00:55:30   Because it's still in the line at 329 and it's $120 cheaper

00:55:36   in a way, I'm thinking of the iPad 9 as

00:55:41   The iPad se without ever actually calling anything the iPad se but it actually fits the exact role that the

00:55:50   Apple watch SE has fit and of course more the best known SE the iPhone SE models

00:55:56   Where it's old hardware design

00:55:59   But good enough to recommend to people. It's a fine product

00:56:03   It's not like Apple watch series 3 was for the last year where everybody who kind of

00:56:10   Had any kind of formed opinion about Apple watch would tell people don't buy that. Yes

00:56:15   I know that price tag is appealing and you may not understand the differences

00:56:19   But you should buy the Apple watch SE for more money instead of buying that series 3

00:56:24   The iPad 9th generation isn't like that at all

00:56:27   You know if you think of it as the iPad se then I think the lineup makes total sense. Mm-hmm

00:56:31   Well in the iPad 10 10th generation, what's interesting is

00:56:35   If you were to envision a product that was between the ninth generation and the air

00:56:41   It would be the iPad

00:56:45   Tenth generation what's interesting about it is like what they chose to upgrade and what they chose to not upgrade. I think that's kind of fascinating

00:56:53   Because it's got it doesn't have a laminated screen like the iPad air. It doesn't support the pencil to like the iPad air

00:57:00   Like it's got a bunch of things about it doesn't support the smart keyboard

00:57:04   It doesn't do windowing on display right using stage manager. It can't do that

00:57:09   There are all sorts of things that the iPad air still does but the iPad 10th generation has evolved over the ninth generation in

00:57:17   moving touch ID to the sleep button and

00:57:20   Having a keyboard that has a trackpad on it. Yeah, right and you know getting away from the home button, right?

00:57:28   I'm getting wait. Yeah, I think which I think is makes it feel much more modern even though like the air, right?

00:57:33   It doesn't have face ID, but just having it be

00:57:36   Apple calls it like

00:57:39   Borderless or full screen or whatever is still quite a large border around it

00:57:42   But it's consistent around the whole thing and there isn't a big space at the bottom where there's a home button

00:57:47   So it feels more like a modern iPad by putting it in the button

00:57:50   Yeah, it just looks more modern

00:57:53   I mean we've been moving towards this ever since the iPhone 10 which first introduced this new design language where

00:57:59   coincident with getting rid of a chin and a forehead and a

00:58:04   Square cornered rectangular screen and a home button whether or not the home button has touch ID or not

00:58:11   But just that classic iPhone from 2007

00:58:14   fundamental design it's I you know, it shows how long these transitions can be right because the iPhone 10 was like

00:58:21   2017 right at my right or is it 2016? I don't know. It's at least five or six years. I guess five years ago. Yeah

00:58:30   So now it's finally trickled down throughout the whole iPad lineup - I mean there still is the

00:58:36   iPad ninth generation and there still is the iPhone SE so that we're not totally out of it yet as

00:58:44   relevant products that Apple continues to sell but

00:58:47   The light at the end of the tunnel of okay. The home button is gone is clearly on the horizon. Yeah

00:58:54   Yeah for sure. So it's a modernization of the iPad and that's great

00:58:58   But they have had to keep the old one around because this is obviously not a product that is targeted at 329

00:59:04   but it's curious because among its upgrades is

00:59:07   not just it's such a weird product cuz like

00:59:10   The there's this new case that is using the smart connector on the side and unlike they didn't upgrade the smart connector to the back

00:59:18   Like the air which means that it can't use the magic keyboard that they make that's the cantilevered thing

00:59:24   That's got the trackpad and the keyboard

00:59:25   They kept the smart connector on the side that used to be remember it was originally the iPad

00:59:30   Pro smart connector and it came down to all models and this is the last one other than the iPad 9 that still has it

00:59:36   on the side

00:59:38   But as a result, they've got a two-piece keyboard thing

00:59:41   That's very different from the magic keyboard and it's got a kickstand and it isn't backlit

00:59:47   But it does have the same key switches and it's got a function row

00:59:51   Which everybody complained that the magic keyboard for iPad Pro did not have it's got it

00:59:56   That's another great sign and they moved the FaceTime camera so that it's in the center. That's great

01:00:01   And then they and then moved it to USB C because that's the way things are going. That's great

01:00:07   And then they said yeah, we can't find a place for the Apple pencil, too

01:00:11   So we made this plastic tongue call you can use with the original Apple pencils like what huh? Like the choices

01:00:18   I'm sure there's a whole story there that we'll never hear

01:00:20   About why they made that choice, but it's so strange, right?

01:00:24   So it's like they're advancing the platform over here and then it's like but not you Apple pencil

01:00:28   Not you so you went to I presume Cupertino for briefings

01:00:34   I went to New York last week and we have the hardware we've been testing, you know

01:00:40   By the time this podcast airs the embargo will be up so we can talk about it. I've got these things

01:00:44   This is what I was joking about at the outset of the show in front of me and you go to get these briefings

01:00:49   You get the chance to ask questions. You don't necessarily get the chance to get

01:00:53   Answers to your questions. No

01:00:56   But this was a briefing where there were a lot of questions

01:01:00   yeah, and

01:01:03   the why

01:01:05   Does it still use Apple pencil one?

01:01:08   question I was anticipating getting a total non answer from and my guess was and I do think this is a factor that

01:01:18   The connector technology

01:01:21   inside the

01:01:24   iPads for pencil 2 is

01:01:26   expensive or expensive enough that for these the you know, what why is

01:01:32   This iPad 150 dollars less than the same amount of storage in an iPad air

01:01:38   Which does support pencil - that's part of the explanation, right?

01:01:43   M1 versus an a14 chip is certainly part of it the laminated screen this that the other thing does add up and you can say

01:01:51   Side by side at a glance this looks just like the iPad air

01:01:55   So I don't see why anybody would spend 150 dollars more on the iPad air

01:01:59   But you don't have to spend long looking at the comparison tech specs to see. Oh, well, there's this and there's this and there's this and

01:02:09   The pencil to support hardware inside the iPad air and the iPad pros is

01:02:15   Harder to see than things like Oh laminated screen once you look for it. You can I can definitely see it

01:02:21   You can definitely see that the screen isn't as nice and that you can see that there's like a gap there

01:02:26   Under the pixels or further from the surface. It's thicker

01:02:28   It's a slightly thicker device and when they're side by side, you can definitely tell

01:02:32   that hardware for

01:02:36   It's not just magnets to snap the snap. I'm sure the magnets are the cheapest part of it, but the actual technology that

01:02:44   wirelessly pairs and charges

01:02:47   the pencil - when it's attached to an iPad air or iPad Pro that has a cost and

01:02:56   Presumably this device is eventually going to cost 329, right? They're gonna eventually that iPad

01:03:03   9th gen is gonna go away and this will be the entry-level iPad at a

01:03:08   330 price or something like that or 350 maybe with inflation

01:03:12   I don't know but you know, they're gonna knock $100 off this at some point

01:03:16   So it's been I think it's built for that going forward. I think that's a reason maybe it is the reason

01:03:22   But the other answer I got I don't know. Did you get any answers from this?

01:03:26   The other answer I got is that there are a zillion Apple pencil ones out there in institutions

01:03:33   Education especially yeah in education especially and

01:03:37   that

01:03:39   those

01:03:40   institutions

01:03:41   That bought and still have been buying

01:03:44   The lightning like 9th the iPad 9th gen that use those pencils are doing it for cost reasons

01:03:52   That education famously needs the budgets aren't great in schools

01:03:56   And so the if they're buying

01:04:01   300 $400. Let's just say $400 iPads

01:04:04   $99 pencils, that's a 25%

01:04:08   That's the combined cost is now $500 right and 20% of the cost of the device is the pencil

01:04:14   that's a significant investment to them and

01:04:17   Those are the people who are going to buy this iPad because the budget still matters and if they can reuse the pencils

01:04:25   They already have that's a significant part of the expenditure for buying these iPads

01:04:30   Compared to people who have let's say a thousand dollar

01:04:34   $1,100 $1,200

01:04:36   $900 budget for an iPad Pro or a high-end iPad air

01:04:41   If you need to buy a new $99 pencil sure it's still a hundred bucks

01:04:47   But you're in it you're in a stratosphere where your overall budget can absorb an extra $99 in a way that

01:04:53   Someone whose budget $400 is grit your teeth just for the 400 bucks. It makes a big difference

01:05:01   Yeah, I understand that I think that I was thinking this week about the emac do you remember the emac it was a

01:05:08   They didn't make a g4 iMac it with a CRT

01:05:12   but they made this thing called the emac that was basically a g4 iMac with a CRT and

01:05:17   The reason they made it was education. It's because the edge. It's the same reason why there was an iMac for years

01:05:23   That was like a thousand dollars

01:05:25   That had a spinning disk and an optical drive and like all these things that Apple had given up on but they made

01:05:32   What I'm saying is Apple makes a lot of weird decisions because we aren't in touch with

01:05:39   Who the institutional buyers are and what they want and there's somebody inside Apple who says you?

01:05:46   Can't do this because you don't understand how many people buy this and so pencil one I get it

01:05:53   I think that's not a bad excuse. I wonder if there might have been other ways to mitigate that

01:05:59   But that they would have been too in the end

01:06:02   I think the answer is they would have been too expensive to put in this low-end iPad

01:06:07   Hardware like you could be compatible with both that they chose not to do that. So we end up in the situation where

01:06:13   lightning

01:06:16   Also, I gotta say this is like the chickens coming home to roost right the design decision Apple made in

01:06:22   2018 with the iPad Pro having the magnetic attachment which is so great for the for the pencil to love that pencil, too

01:06:29   But that means that if you want to make an iPad that supports pencil - you have to do the magnetic with the induction charging

01:06:36   You got to do it

01:06:36   Otherwise, you can't support that one and the design decision they made with the original pencil, which I think at the time

01:06:43   We all scratched our heads about a little bit which is well

01:06:45   There's a little plastic cap and then there's like a lightning nub

01:06:47   Underneath and you can plug it into the bottom of an iPad which is super awkward and weird

01:06:52   But you can do it

01:06:54   It always felt like it was gonna break off when I would do it like maybe very uncomfortable

01:06:59   The pop well now they're in this situation. Yeah, and so now they're in a situation where they're like

01:07:04   But what do we do? We can't use that and we can't really use that and somebody was like well

01:07:10   Okay, let's make a $9 adapter that you plug

01:07:15   Pencil in on one side and a USB cable in on another because it's too long. There's too much torque

01:07:21   There's too long. You would literally snap it off if you write stuck if you had it have like a USB C sticking out of it

01:07:27   So instead it's just a receptacle for a cable to get plugged in right and the Apple

01:07:31   Knew going in that everybody was gonna laugh at it and it is kind of embarrassing

01:07:35   Like I totally get why they might want to do it

01:07:38   But it's it is a logical progression when you consider all the other decisions they made

01:07:42   Right, but it's they really they painted themselves in a corner where they're like

01:07:46   I guess this is what we have to do now because they didn't want to do it

01:07:49   But I think whatever in device option they might have had in that iPad

01:07:53   All their choices were probably pushed push the price up or the margins down depending on how you want to look at it

01:07:59   And they decided nope $9 adapter it is right and it's like why do you have?

01:08:04   paint all over the skin of your feet and it's

01:08:09   because well I painted myself in a corner and I figured out the best solution was to take off my shoes and socks and

01:08:15   Just walk across the floor with my bare feet

01:08:18   Because I can wash those and I thought if I got paint on the bottoms of my shoes

01:08:23   I'd never get it off and so now my shoes are fine

01:08:26   But I just need to take a shower and scrub my feet and it was the best I could do

01:08:30   And I also think that there's that and we talked about like their future plans. I suspect there's a pencil three in the works and

01:08:38   When they looked at this they're like we're not gonna put any effort into doing a new pencil right now because we're already working on

01:08:43   A new pencil because they could have made a pencil one and a half that uses USB C

01:08:47   they could have knocked off or

01:08:49   even bought or worked with Logitech because Logitech has that product that they've had since the very beginning of the Apple pencil called the crayon

01:08:55   right that that works with

01:08:57   Like they've been working with them since 2018 since that Chicago event, right?

01:09:02   So it doesn't do the pressure sensitivity, but it like it were its proximity based

01:09:07   You just bring it near an iPad and it works and you can draw on it and they made a new USB C version

01:09:12   But it doesn't really matter you can use either version and like they could have done there are lots of like

01:09:17   Things they could have done to make this easier

01:09:20   But I think in the end they looked at it and said we're not investing more time in old pencil low-end pencil

01:09:28   Compatibility. We're just not gonna do it. You can have a little plastic thing

01:09:31   Yeah, I never bought the Logitech crown, but I'm thinking about buying the new one

01:09:35   So the new one that they announced coincident with last week's announcement is USB C for charging

01:09:41   But I because I don't have one. I don't know how you pair it

01:09:44   Do you pair it with a cable or do you pair it wirelessly? It's adorable think believe it or not

01:09:51   And it's been a little while. I don't know where mine is. I need to fish it out. Mine is the original

01:09:55   So it's like orange. It's probably batteries probably dead. It probably doesn't work anymore, but I believe you don't pair it. I

01:10:02   Believe that it works entirely based on proximity and you just bring it near an iPad and it starts working

01:10:08   And then it starts to work with that iPad and then if you turn and use a different iPad it just starts with that one

01:10:14   Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, it's a it's a really interesting product

01:10:17   And I think people don't know about it, but it again not as capable as an Apple pencil

01:10:22   But I think the whole idea there was to make a more affordable

01:10:26   Stylus for iPads for education and if you think about it in an educational context

01:10:32   You can have a bunch of those crayons and a bunch of iPads and you don't have to worry about pairing or anything

01:10:37   Right because it's all proximity based right and as easy as it is to pair

01:10:42   repair a pencil from iPad a to iPad B

01:10:46   So long as the two iPads share pencil one or pencil to

01:10:51   compatibility just by

01:10:53   Attaching pencil to magnetically it suddenly changes from being paired with a to B or just plugging the lightning

01:11:02   Plug into the socket on red a home button iPad just pairs the iPad or the pencil with it

01:11:08   Not having to pair at all is even easier, right?

01:11:12   and again

01:11:13   Like you said in a classroom situation where everybody picks up an iPad and you don't have to worry that you've got

01:11:17   iPad a 37 with pencil a 37 because they're the ones that are paired together

01:11:24   Especially now that if you want to pair that pencil one

01:11:26   You got to get the adapter and the cable and so they thing to do that the adapter is nine dollars

01:11:32   Which is Apple's price for shit that they wish they could just give away. Oh

01:11:36   Right. I forget what else has cost nine dollars over the I think like the I think the AirPods eartips cost nine dollars

01:11:44   Yeah, the headphone to lightning adapter when they first got rid of the headphone jack was nine dollars

01:11:49   Yeah, I'm sure if it still USB headphone adapter, I think is that too. They're all it's yeah nine dollars is the

01:11:55   Like I can't charge any less than this price, right? That's and so good for them

01:12:02   They're like my understanding is y'all you're about to say it

01:12:05   My understanding is they're gonna put it in the box right of all new

01:12:08   I can't believe I'm even saying this new iPad or new Apple pencil ones that are being sold, right?

01:12:14   I asked because in our review kit or at least my review kit

01:12:18   I got they gave me a new pencil one, which is I don't know how many of them now floating around my house

01:12:24   My old one battery died. So I was glad they sent one this time. Oh, yeah, like it did like wouldn't even charge

01:12:29   Yeah, I left it dead for too long right good. It won't charge now

01:12:32   They sent me a pencil one and the standalone little

01:12:35   adorable little box for the adapter

01:12:38   And so I asked because I did tell me at the briefing that going forward all pencil one purchases included

01:12:44   I was like is it always gonna be two separate boxes and they're like, no it will eventually be in the box with the pencil

01:12:49   It's just that the you know right now to give us stuff. They don't have those yet

01:12:53   So they just gave us the two boxes the adapter

01:12:55   It is awkward. I mean that the biggest problem to me isn't the nine dollars if you need to buy it

01:13:00   It's the lose ability and to me

01:13:03   That's the single biggest design mistake with the pencil one is the cap because the caps are so easily loseable

01:13:11   There's nowhere to put it when you take it off while it was my Apple pencil

01:13:15   I lost the I did and I don't lose things typically

01:13:18   I'm pretty good at not losing like even fiddly little things

01:13:21   But I lost the caps and I also thought what the hell why do I even care about the cap the lightning the male lightning?

01:13:27   Jack at the end of the pencil, I guess it looks better with the cap on but I I think the design would have been better

01:13:33   I don't know

01:13:34   I'm sure they considered it but I think it would have been better if it was

01:13:37   Retractable if it was like like the way that a click pen goes in and out what if the lightning?

01:13:43   Clicked in and out so that you could

01:13:45   Tuck it away. So it's not sticking out but it went away the cap was a terrible idea

01:13:50   It really in my opinion. Yeah, and I mean I and I totally get why they had it be Jack because the

01:13:57   It is such a even though it's awkward and weird. You don't need to find a cable, right?

01:14:02   You just plug it into the bottom of your iPad and it pairs and it charges and you've got it going

01:14:06   Well, and the other problem with lightning is there's never been such a thing as a lightning to lightning cable with male lightning on both ends

01:14:12   Right. Well, they had they actually had a little adapter in the box

01:14:17   To do that, I think because I had one but so you could charge it independently, but it was not meant to do that

01:14:23   I mean because the the counter-argument could be maybe they could have just made a lightning port on it, right?

01:14:28   But then you'd need a cable every time now ironically now with this new iPad

01:14:33   They the result of that design decision is now you do need a cable and an adapter

01:14:38   It's so funny the adapter if you didn't notice if you put a link in the show notes to it

01:14:46   I promise but if you look at the little picture, they show the picture on the one side on the lightning side

01:14:51   So it's female to female

01:14:53   It is a female USB on one side female lightning on the other and you can tell which is which if you know

01:15:00   that

01:15:02   USB-c

01:15:04   Sockets are

01:15:06   Actually the male part of USB-c

01:15:09   There's like a little thing that sticks out in the Senate

01:15:12   You can just look in a USB-c port and you can see what I'm talking about. So you can tell but they also put just a little

01:15:18   Circle on the lightning end on the one side like there is no logo for lightning and

01:15:25   What would the logo be? It would be a lightning bolt, I guess which is already used for Thunderbolt

01:15:31   Yeah, so it's the I guess that circle means stick your pencil here. Yeah, I guess I don't know

01:15:37   It's like for lack of a better icon. They just used a circle so you can kind of tell without peering into the slot

01:15:43   But it's very subtle. It is so super lightweight

01:15:47   It is so loseable, but I I don't like you said they painted themselves in a corner and what do you do?

01:15:51   You can he got you something's gonna get paint all over it or you're gonna sit there forever

01:15:56   Yeah, I mean my argument would be if you're going to the trouble of going this far and upgrading this thing

01:16:01   you should bite the bullet and

01:16:04   Make the new one pencil to compatible even if it's also pencil one compatible

01:16:09   Which I don't know what is involved there and you sell these adapters for your

01:16:13   Institutions that are desperate to hold on to their pencil ones, right but now

01:16:17   This thing only uses the pencil one

01:16:20   So you got to keep making them?

01:16:23   Yeah, and like the pencil two came out four years ago and they're like, nope

01:16:27   We're still doing pencil one and that's gonna keep on going into the future

01:16:30   So they could have mitigated this in a bunch of ways and they just decided not to because it might have cost them an extra

01:16:35   I mean either either maybe the space isn't there or it cost them an extra

01:16:39   15 bucks that they don't want to give away on every sale and so here we are

01:16:44   Things I've tried with this since I've gotten the kit

01:16:47   I have tried because I thought well wait what if I put the adapter on the pencil one and then plug the u.s.

01:16:53   A USB C cable into an iPad Pro. Can I then pair a pencil one?

01:16:59   With is the reason that the iPad Pro is never supported pencil one because it doesn't have lightning so thus couldn't pair

01:17:06   Is that the only thing but when you try it you get accessory not supported this accessory is not supported by this device

01:17:13   Okay

01:17:14   Well, I tried

01:17:16   Mm-hmm. I

01:17:18   asked

01:17:19   Apple in a follow-up question because I'm thinking what happens if you lose your

01:17:25   Adapter which I think is definitely it's right 100% certain to happen to some people, right?

01:17:31   What do you do while you're waiting to either find it or?

01:17:35   buy a new one with a pencil that needs a charge and

01:17:40   You've got a pencil one. It has a male lightning port sticking out of it

01:17:46   And how do you charge it if you don't have an iPad with a lightning port?

01:17:50   So I asked can you charge it by plugging it into an iPhone and I was told the answer is yes

01:17:56   It will charge plugged into now. You obviously can't draw or pair it with an iPhone, but it will at least give it a charge. So

01:18:03   That to me is actually pretty interesting

01:18:06   I mean, I don't know how many people would think to try that but in a pinch I can see help

01:18:11   So anybody out there who's going to be in this situation?

01:18:13   If you file that away in your head that in a pinch if you have an Apple pencil one that needs a charge and you

01:18:20   Don't have the adapter

01:18:21   Then you could plug it into an iPhone and charge it that way or at least you get it

01:18:26   I know enough charge to use it for a bit right what else I'm trying to think what else I tried I

01:18:31   Guess that's it anything else on the pencil

01:18:34   No, it's just you think it's a good opportunity for people to point and laugh

01:18:39   And yeah, I mean, I mean Apple does need to live it down

01:18:42   But I think as we've described like I get why they're at this point and I get that they maybe

01:18:48   Felt like they just had to choose do we do this kind of embarrassing thing or do we?

01:18:52   Reduce our margins on this iPad and they're like, well, we're not reducing our margins

01:18:57   So we'll be we'll just handle the embarrassment and we'll move on but it's not a great experience

01:19:01   I mean

01:19:01   I've

01:19:02   Seriously, if you're somebody who ends up with this look at that Logitech crayon because it's just gonna be a way better experience all around unless

01:19:09   You absolutely need the pressure sensitivity stuff and you know if you are but for most people

01:19:15   I feel like the crayon is not only will it work better with this iPad, but it'll also work with all the other ones, right?

01:19:22   That's the other yeah for institution like education buyers who might have might be thinking well, we'll buy some of these iPads

01:19:28   But we might also have some other ones iPad airs or pros or minis, right?

01:19:33   Even the mini and don't invest in the Apple pencil one by a crayon instead right by the crayons instead

01:19:38   And because then you'll be able to keep using them going forward

01:19:41   All right

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01:22:14   Alright

01:22:17   The big change that that is the most notable change

01:22:21   I think bigger than going from lightning to USB C

01:22:24   Honestly because USB C is sort of like cat that the iPad catching up to the rest of the iPad lineup

01:22:29   The one that now puts the just plain no adjective low priced iPad ahead of all other iPads is that front-facing?

01:22:36   camera moving to the long side or as Apple calls it the

01:22:40   landscape side sure

01:22:42   and

01:22:44   it's

01:22:46   Everybody's been clamoring for it. I've wanted it

01:22:48   I actually because it my kitchen laptop is my iPad and so like we when Amy and I like we FaceTime family or

01:22:56   Anybody else like our school stuff now that the kids in college? We don't really parents aren't really involved thankfully

01:23:02   But I like when Jonas was in high school and there'd be stuff and during kovat for sure with school stuff

01:23:07   We did the zoom stuff together with an iPad and it's just a constant irritation to me that in a laptop

01:23:15   Configuration the camera is wrong. It makes it look a it's - it's even lower than at the top and it everybody knows that

01:23:23   desk height

01:23:25   Laptop front-facing camera is unflattering looking up at your face and your nose

01:23:31   But putting it even lower makes it even worse and putting it on the side

01:23:35   When you're looking at the people on screen and the camera on the side makes it look like you're looking off-screen

01:23:42   Like you're not paying attention to the call and if you stare at the camera so that you look like you're paying attention

01:23:47   You can't see the people's faces. It is it is the wrong orientation if you're using it in a laptop configuration

01:23:55   and the first iPad to move it is

01:23:58   The just plain iPad and I have to say as soon as I fired it up and used it

01:24:03   I was like, oh my god, this is weird. I look right in FaceTime on an iPad. Yeah. No, it's huge

01:24:08   Yeah, I did the same thing. It was like, oh now it's right

01:24:11   I know it's but it also felt weird because I'm so used to looking wrong on the iPad

01:24:17   Mm-hmm and at the exact well event, but on the exact same announcement

01:24:23   They released brand new iPad pros that don't move the camera at all. Yeah

01:24:28   Yeah, because as we said I think this is I take this as a sign that Apple has realized that that's the right orientation

01:24:35   that that people are

01:24:37   FaceTiming and people are using their iPads in the landscape orientation, which I've always been a landscape primary

01:24:45   iPad user so it's always been funny to me that you know originally when it booted up the Apple was sideways

01:24:53   They fixed that they changed that the logo on the back is still that direction

01:24:57   But they could fix that at a future time and that the camera was on essentially the side and so this is a sign

01:25:04   I think I choose to take it as a sign that Apple has realized that that iPads are more often used

01:25:09   Horizontally than vertically and that's where the camera should go. That's a great sign

01:25:15   But they haven't put it out in any of their other products that is back to our previous

01:25:19   Conversation about why is the iPad Pro the way it is? I think the answer is they for whatever reason

01:25:25   Decided they weren't going to change the hardware

01:25:27   The external hardware design of the iPad Pro this year probably because they have another design in the works

01:25:33   And they weren't ready to bring it out now

01:25:35   And they did not they were not interested in doing some sort of interim thing because if you change the where the camera is

01:25:42   That is a major

01:25:44   Relaying out of the internals of that device and they decided they weren't gonna do it

01:25:49   So here we are and I think that in years past they might have just not

01:25:55   Upgraded the iPads Pro this year and just let them go two years between updates, right?

01:26:01   There are a lot of Apple products are not have not over the years been updated on a consistent schedule and some products

01:26:08   have gone an almost

01:26:10   bizarre number of years between updates like to me the the big the biggest and best example there probably ever will be or hopefully ever

01:26:18   Will be would be the non retina

01:26:20   MacBook Airs

01:26:21   While we were the rest of the MacBook lineup had moved to retina displays and the MacBook Air didn't and they were just stuck on

01:26:28   What was clearly an old design with a now crappy look at then crappy looking screen, you know

01:26:34   and maybe there were speed bumps in there, but from Intel but nothing that you and now I feel like with Apple silicon they

01:26:43   And now that the iPad pros are on the M series and they're numbering them. I think they want to keep every year

01:26:49   There's gonna be an M

01:26:51   Number plus one and I think they want to put the M number plus one in the iPad Pro every year and I think

01:26:58   There's a I would I think they're gonna try to put like these iPads on an annual update schedule like the iPhone

01:27:05   Maybe I mean it's been 18 one since the m1 error

01:27:09   So it could be that 18 months is what they would end up wanting to do and I think it's unclear to me

01:27:14   you know still about like a

01:27:16   The a series and the M series whether they're gonna stay in perfect sync or if they might skip an a series

01:27:22   Every so often with the M right so that the m3 is not based on the a

01:27:27   17 or whatever it is, but is on the 18 like they could do something like that at some point but regardless

01:27:35   Yeah, I take your point which is they're making these chips like you make an m2

01:27:39   Why would you not update your iPad Pro to be an m2 iPad Pro right? Like it just makes it

01:27:44   Why would you not even if you're not changing the hardware?

01:27:46   In many other cases

01:27:48   Why would you not take the opportunity?

01:27:50   To just refresh because it's your chip and why not put it the more of them you make the more of them you sell the

01:27:56   Cheaper it is to make it. So why would you not push ahead right and you get like 15 to 20 percent increase in performance

01:28:03   Depending how you matter and it doesn't really matter if it's closer to 15 for your needs or 20

01:28:08   If that's for a year over year speed bump chip upgrade 15 to 20 percent is terrific

01:28:14   And if they can keep that going for a decade or more to come that's that sort of compound interest that

01:28:20   Really can in the same way that 15 to 20 percent growth in an investment can really create wealth over time

01:28:28   15 to 20 percent performance improvements aren't that big for one year but compounded add up

01:28:36   Tremendously and if they want to keep moving them out every year

01:28:40   I think we're gonna see years like this where really the only news is oh it went from the

01:28:45   MX to the MX plus one I would guess for example that come next

01:28:51   Summer or maybe sooner maybe like in May or something like that or April there will be a new MacBook Air

01:28:59   with the m3 and

01:29:02   It's gonna look exactly like this year's brand new

01:29:06   MacBook Air's

01:29:07   Maybe just different colors to refresh per year

01:29:11   But otherwise exactly the same and just goes to the m3 because they're not if we assume that the m3 is based on the a16

01:29:18   Yes, the only question there in my mind is given what's going on a TSMC like it

01:29:23   Do they hold out for next Falls right a series?

01:29:27   Are they kind of like we don't we're gonna we're gonna jump over that one and make the next one the basis of the m3

01:29:32   That that's the only question but otherwise yes, I think you're right like there's gonna be an m3 MacBook Air at some point

01:29:39   And it will be as soon as the m3 is available

01:29:41   They'll just start rolling it out

01:29:42   And why would you again it's not like Intel like they control the rollout and why would you not want that chip everywhere?

01:29:48   Especially since most people aren't upgrading from the previous model right they're upgrading from two or three models past so that compound interest

01:29:54   Right is like again if you've got a 2018 iPad Pro you probably don't need to update to the m2 version

01:30:00   But if you do you're going from an a12 X to an m2 that is a substantial

01:30:05   Like my in my tests like for single processor, especially but like the a12

01:30:11   Z and the a12 12 X a 14 iPad is basically as fast as they are if not a little bit faster at some things

01:30:18   So you could get a big update that way

01:30:21   But you're probably not coming from the m1 to the m2 unless you're an artist who really wants the new like hover

01:30:26   Feature for Apple pencil because otherwise the speed unless you're editing high-end video or something that speed boost is not gonna really matter

01:30:33   Yeah, yeah, the hover feature is really interesting to me, and I do wonder

01:30:38   I really wonder if they've sort of artificially gated this they claim that it requires the m2

01:30:45   And I might maybe there's something involved with the m2 that this proximity detection

01:30:51   But I'm a little suspicious that it was gated just so they could have a feature to say this feature is new on the new

01:30:59   iPad pros and you might have required like a radio update

01:31:02   Yeah, a little bit of an update to the digitizer or something like that like it's possible that to get the extra precision

01:31:08   They had to update a part that might not even be a very expensive part who knows but it was enough that they said let's do

01:31:15   This it is some kind of Apple TV 4k where they were saying that HDR 10+ was going to be a feature of

01:31:21   tvOS and then they said no no no it's just on the new hardware and

01:31:24   It might just be that they looked at it on the old hardware, and it wasn't quite great

01:31:27   And they're like let's pull it because the new hardware can do it in this one

01:31:31   It's a little iffy and it might be that simple that they're like they looked at this and we're like

01:31:35   It's not this feature is not good enough on the current hardware, so when we do the next iPad Pro

01:31:40   Let's do a little bit more so that we can roll this feature out

01:31:43   That's my guess

01:31:44   But other than the hover the only real difference from the previous generation of iPad pros to this generation

01:31:50   The only difference is the M1 to M2

01:31:53   Transition and the performance increase it does it's that and hover and I think that's it or is there Wi-Fi Wi-Fi

01:32:00   6e Wi-Fi I think which again is like it's a pretty esoteric list of items

01:32:06   It's a it's a speed bump what we always called the speed bump it is faster and slightly better

01:32:11   But otherwise it's a very familiar product. It's not like going to the 10th generation iPad

01:32:16   It's not like going from the M1 air to the M2 air

01:32:19   It's not that kind of a thing no and the hover thing though is really neat

01:32:24   I don't know what did we probably saw the same demos from Apple?

01:32:27   Yeah

01:32:28   Like procreate was the big one that I saw and I was sitting with somebody who's a procreate

01:32:32   Professional basically was the other person at my briefing and she was levitating during the heart

01:32:36   And I know for a lot of people it's gonna be a nothing feature because what it really is doing is showing you a preview

01:32:42   Of what you're gonna do when you put your pencil down

01:32:44   So when you're hovering over it and it's using a lot of the stuff that is involved in the iOS or iPad OS pointer

01:32:50   So like it'll make icons bigger when you hover over them before you tap on them and there's some stuff

01:32:56   There's an API to do more for me the moment where I thought okay

01:33:00   That is interesting and not just kind of a nice like a preview for artists to like

01:33:06   Oh, that's not what my setting should be and I'm gonna fix it is the idea that

01:33:11   You're adding another state right? Like there's there used to be two pencil states

01:33:15   Which was the pencils not down and the pencil is down and now there's three pencil states

01:33:21   No, there's the pencils nowhere. The pencils down and the pencil is hovering close, but not there and as a developer

01:33:29   You can use that to either infer things the state changes infer things about them

01:33:36   So Apple's doing that with scribble

01:33:38   Where Apple can they can infer that you're done writing faster

01:33:44   because you leave the focus state and they know that the pencil has left and so that it can like

01:33:50   Process it faster because it's able to tell is the pencil still hovering or is it gone?

01:33:55   Which it couldn't do before so that's interesting

01:33:58   But the procreate stuff is where it really blew me away because that's where they're saying

01:34:02   Oh

01:34:02   well

01:34:02   when you're

01:34:03   Hovering and you double tap it does something different or if you're hovering and you move your finger on the screen

01:34:08   You slide or you pinch it does a completely different thing

01:34:12   Then if you were to slide or pinch with the pencil not present

01:34:17   It does a you know, you're changing the opacity or you're changing the size of the brush

01:34:21   Right, and that was that moment that okay that for people who use the Apple pencil, especially in artistic areas

01:34:27   the ability to add a second level of gestures

01:34:31   based on a hover state versus a pen down state is

01:34:36   A place where like procreate the procreate demo was the perfect one like that's really good because you can preview

01:34:41   See what you're doing not like it use your double tap or use your fingers on the iPad to change

01:34:48   What is going to be put down when you put the pencil down and then put the pencil down?

01:34:52   That's I know it's a little esoteric and it's only gonna work for very specific kind of pencil oriented workflows on the iPad

01:34:59   But that was my moment where I said, okay

01:35:02   This isn't just kind of a novelty in a preview because all of a sudden you can have a whole second set of

01:35:08   Gestures based on where the pencil is. That's cool. Yeah, the one that really got me and I could really see I'm not a

01:35:15   Serious artist at art even an unserious

01:35:18   Artist, but I love watching

01:35:21   Good artists talented artists work digitally. I love watching anybody who's good at their job work, but

01:35:28   Anybody who's ever done that or if you're if you're out there listening and you are like a serious Photoshop jockey or something like that

01:35:34   Everybody I know who's like that works with two hands where they've got their dominant hand on the drawing thing

01:35:40   but stylus or their trackpad or the mouse or whatever and their other hand on the keyboard like in Photoshop and

01:35:47   Photoshop has long had these like single character

01:35:51   Keystrokes where you just hit I don't know

01:35:53   I actually don't have memorized but you hit like e to get the eraser and

01:35:57   It just in you know, so you don't have to go click a palette tool over there

01:36:02   you just have the mouse right here and you hit a button and it instantly changes from the paintbrush to the eraser and

01:36:08   You erase and then you just hit another button with you watch somebody and they have these things memorized the way that like a touch

01:36:16   typist knows how to type or a pianist knows how to play the piano without thinking about where these things are and that

01:36:24   Pinching with your offhand to change the brush size as you hover close to the iPad surface

01:36:30   To go from a fine point to a broader point and without having to look off to the side

01:36:36   To where there's a dial to adjust the brush size that seems like something

01:36:41   That's not a minor update but a major one because it keeps you in the flow and you just flying through

01:36:48   Your work like that. I think it's really cool

01:36:51   It also plays off all of the stuff that they did for the trackpad support. Yeah in iOS

01:36:57   So so like when you're on a web page now you finally for the first time in iOS without the trackpad

01:37:05   You can get hover effects

01:37:08   Like so if you hover the pencil over a link on a web page the link lights up before you tap it

01:37:14   Which has been lifted from the pointer support, right?

01:37:17   Where's that right and same thing with like all the little buttons the way buttons get like a hover effect with the mouse pointer

01:37:23   you they get it with a pencil now to throughout the whole user interface and

01:37:27   Hovering has been a lost for lack of a better word dimension in user interface on

01:37:34   touchscreens ever since the iPhone came out right and as much as touchscreens have proven to be

01:37:41   The most popular way of doing personal computing ever since the iPhone came out

01:37:47   Losing hover has been a loss, right?

01:37:50   It's many steps forward but one step back with the loss of hover, which is a useful dimension in user interface

01:37:58   just one example would be

01:38:00   Somebody who makes poor choices in their color and decoration

01:38:06   for their web page to highlight a link like if you have black text on a white background and your links are

01:38:14   Navy blue but aren't even underlined

01:38:17   Visually that's hard. It's hard to see and somebody who maybe doesn't pick up color that well may not see it

01:38:25   so you could always on a Mac or a Windows machine just hover the mouse over something if you think it's a link and

01:38:31   It will hopefully have a hover effect that lights up and you're like, oh, yes

01:38:36   So without clicking it or right-clicking it or anything. You can just tell okay, that's a link

01:38:41   Well, you get that with a pencil now now, is that a reason to buy a new iPad Pro just to have I mean

01:38:46   How many people are surfing with their pencils as opposed to their finger?

01:38:49   No, but it's a nice use and it shows that they are trying to align

01:38:53   Work that they've done before. Yeah, right

01:38:56   It's like well, we already did this work for a hover state for the magic keyboard and for any external pointing devices

01:39:02   Why would we not use that for this state too? And that's nice. Yeah, I write my macrolle column every week

01:39:07   I need to put in in

01:39:09   IDG system and they have like to create a new entry is a

01:39:14   Menu with a hover state and I often write those on the iPad and it when I started doing this

01:39:20   It was like you had a tap and it didn't open the menu

01:39:22   we just took you to a second screen and then you load that screen and then you could press new and

01:39:26   I still am delighted by the fact that I can now move my pointer over that menu

01:39:31   It drops down the drop-down menu and I can click new directly from there and that's because there's a hover state on iPad OS now

01:39:37   And it's a good thing. But otherwise, it's pretty pedestrian and I will say here

01:39:41   So I got a really interesting email from a daring fireball reader after Monday's or Tuesday's announcement

01:39:47   And this is a fellow who works at a very large corporation

01:39:52   probably I think he might have even said fortune 500 and they have

01:39:55   to my ears

01:39:58   Draconian IT requirements

01:40:00   he and he his nature of his job is he travels a lot and he flies all the time and

01:40:05   His colleagues are in the same boat there. I don't know what they do

01:40:08   It doesn't matter but they he's always traveling and his go-to

01:40:12   machine for years now has been an iPad Pro with a magic keyboard because

01:40:18   Primarily it is primary reason. Is that the IT department?

01:40:22   Mandates that if you're using a Mac or Windows laptop

01:40:26   You can only use the apps their enterprise apps within the company when you're connected to the VPN for security reasons

01:40:36   But with iPads they let you use the apps

01:40:38   installed locally on the device

01:40:41   That sounds draconian to me that they don't let you use but he like he said therefore

01:40:45   It's it's the choice with the iPad for all the reasons. He might prefer using a MacBook to an iPad for

01:40:50   productivity

01:40:52   the fact that he can just use his software when he's on a on a plane and

01:40:57   Couldn't with the VPN or can't reliably and he said and but a bunch of my colleagues are in the same boat

01:41:03   You know so him and his colleagues are largely iPad Pro users for this reason and that makes all the sense in the world to me

01:41:09   given those restrictions and

01:41:11   he said that single biggest complaint that he and all of his colleagues have had all along is the placement of the camera because they're

01:41:19   also the nature of their work as

01:41:21   Corporate employees who travel a lot there on zoom or whatever else, you know WebEx

01:41:27   whatever their company uses all the time for meetings and they've got a camera that is

01:41:33   It wrongly placed. Yeah, so if he were buying an iPad a new iPad right now

01:41:38   he'd insta by the regular iPad downgrading from an iPad pros just for the camera and

01:41:43   Because he knows that the a14 is good enough. It's it none of the apps

01:41:48   He uses are like need an m1 that type of apps would he knows that would run just fine

01:41:54   It the camera alone would make him upgrade I

01:41:59   Thought that was very interesting. I'm sure he's not alone. I was flying a little bit recently

01:42:04   I've noticed I do see more and more people with iPads in airports. It is slowly a growing trend in my opinion

01:42:12   I see them on the plane

01:42:13   I mean that's it's like my favorite thing

01:42:15   To do as I wander up and down the aisle to go pee as I inevitably do every flight. I

01:42:21   Like to see what devices are people using and what are they doing on them? Are they watching movies? Are they doing spreadsheets?

01:42:28   What are people doing?

01:42:30   Definitely more iPads. I have bad news for this fellow though

01:42:34   Or anybody else who was thinking similarly that I'll just buy an iPad because I want the camera in the right place

01:42:39   If you're a frequent traveler is to me the one of the biggest downsides of this new

01:42:46   Magic keyboard folio is it hasn't and because it uses a kickstand to support the screen

01:42:53   It has an enormous footprint on the desk and I there's no way that it would fit on an airplane tray

01:43:00   No, and or in your lap really right? It needs a tabletop, right?

01:43:05   and

01:43:07   It's a $250 product

01:43:09   It is the 11 inch magic keyboard for the 11 inch Pro and the iPad air is

01:43:16   299 so it's $50 different so it's in the ballpark

01:43:20   I find this keyboard for the regular iPad to be a very curious design

01:43:24   Especially for that reason the footprint to me is significant

01:43:29   I was just on the train because I went to New York for the briefing and

01:43:32   On the train. I like to get the seats that have on the acella that how are you?

01:43:39   Even the non acella's have them there's fewer of them though

01:43:41   but you get you can sit at a table and you face so there's four people two on each side of the table and

01:43:47   it's

01:43:48   Your half of the table if you draw the invisible border that's between your side and the person facing you is

01:43:55   Certainly deeper than than an airplane tray, but it's I don't think that this would fit

01:44:02   I think you could fit it on the table

01:44:04   But you'd have to extend the kickstand past your I'm going to be polite to my fellow traveler and not cross the 50-yard line

01:44:11   Yeah, it's so there's a lot of depth there you need a lot of space again

01:44:17   I kind of get why they did it which is I think they decided honestly

01:44:20   I think they decided that they didn't they don't want to make a new

01:44:23   Keyboard without a trackpad. They've got the ones that they've put out before that are still out there

01:44:29   That are those smart keyboards that are only keyboards and no track pads, but I feel like they've decided now

01:44:35   We're gonna move really want everything to be kind of like this, but the problem is

01:44:40   that

01:44:41   You're in this case. It's attaching to the smart connector on the side

01:44:45   not the back and then how do you keep it upright and

01:44:48   You know short of building a cantilevered magic keyboard style for this which would require them to move where the smart connector is and all

01:44:56   Of that they fell back on something that actually third-party iPad cases have been doing for a long time

01:45:01   Which is this kickstand approach of course Microsoft does this they put a kickstand in there

01:45:05   Surfaces and things like that and it's I feel like the message is very much like we know it's not as good

01:45:11   But this is the low-end iPad so what do you want? I will point out that it's it's 249

01:45:17   It is not cheap the this keyboard case is 249. It isn't two pieces. They don't attach to each other

01:45:23   There's a magnetic attach on the back

01:45:25   That's much thicker than you think it's gonna be because it's got the kickstand built into it right and then there's the part that magnetic

01:45:33   Attaches on the side to the smart connector, and that's got the trackpad and the keyboard

01:45:37   So I would not choose to use this mostly because I do use my iPad in my lap all the time

01:45:42   When I'm in keyboard mode and this doesn't work that way that said I'm really happy that it's got

01:45:49   Function keys at the top because that's the thing that's missing from the existing iPad magic keyboard, and I assume

01:45:56   You can't never say never but like I assume. This is Apple admitting that it's better with them than without them I

01:46:04   Wonder on that point because all along ever since the first magic keyboard and again

01:46:09   I know if anybody's confused. I keep messing it up magic keyboard is the cantilevered

01:46:14   300 and it's 350 for the 12.9 inch

01:46:18   It's the one for the iPad pros and the iPad air and it's a one-piece thing that has a stiff

01:46:25   Cantilevered hinge the new thing for the iPad is the smart keyboard. No, it's the smart

01:46:33   Yes, no

01:46:35   Jesus it's the magic keyboard folio folio

01:46:38   magic means trackpad

01:46:42   So the one that doesn't yeah the one that doesn't have a trackpad is just called the smart keyboard folio

01:46:49   And that's only for the same models that take the magic keyboard to me. I don't know who's buying that product

01:46:55   I can only imagine it's only being bought by someone who's never really tried the trackpad with their iPad

01:47:00   Because if you've tried it, I can't imagine why you would want it without the trackpad

01:47:05   I mean

01:47:06   I really can't because the trackpad support is so game-changing when you're using an iPad in

01:47:12   In one of these in one of these products

01:47:15   We all before they came out with trackpad support

01:47:19   It was over every time we talked about iPads on any podcast everybody would say boy

01:47:24   I sure wish you you can have a trackpad

01:47:27   When you're using it with it as a laptop and now that you can it is great

01:47:31   They came up with it truly knocked it out of the park with the implementation in a way that fits with iPad OS

01:47:37   without taking anything away from touch and

01:47:40   Not just mimicking the mount the Mac and having an arrow pointer and stuff like that. It's all great

01:47:46   I don't know why anybody would want it, but apparently they do because they're still selling it and even that's not cheap

01:47:51   That's 180 bucks for the 11-inch and $200 for the 12.9 inch

01:47:56   I it's mind-boggling to me that someone would spend $200 and get one without a trackpad. But there it is. Yeah, I

01:48:03   Thought ever since the magic keyboard came out the one for the iPad pros that the reason they didn't have function keys wasn't so much

01:48:10   They didn't think iPad needed them. But because those keys would be underneath the iPad in the design

01:48:17   but I sort of feel like

01:48:20   People especially just to have an escape key

01:48:22   and again, this is one of those like nerd things where the nerdier people who are more likely to have an iPad Pro or the

01:48:28   Ones who really want an escape key. I think over the last few years. There's been more discussion of escape keys in our

01:48:35   Commentariat crowd then some people at Apple could ever believe whoever the pro

01:48:40   We don't need escape keys on iPads people are I think that they've been surprised by how much yes people

01:48:48   Some people really do need the escape key on the keyboard

01:48:52   So I think it's weird that the people who are more likely to need an escape key are more likely to own the iPad pros

01:48:58   That right come with don't have it

01:49:00   $300 keyboards that don't have it and they if they had to reach under the iPad to get to it

01:49:05   They just it would still be better than not having it. Yeah, what it really does is

01:49:09   Put the lie to the argument that you don't need them because they're all in control center, right?

01:49:15   Which is a dumb argument, but I definitely heard people say well you could just use those in control center. It's fine

01:49:19   I don't know if people from Apple told that to me or it was just people on the internet

01:49:22   But like that was like, oh, well, you don't really need it. But here it is right like here it is

01:49:26   They obviously Apple has endorsed the idea and they have managed to fill up every single F key with a function, right?

01:49:33   But like it's so much better to change your brightness

01:49:36   From the keyboard when you're working on a keyboard or change the volume when from it's so much better

01:49:42   And so to see Apple put it on one of these

01:49:44   Magic keyboards, even if it's not the one that I use I

01:49:49   Feel like is Apple saying okay we get it

01:49:51   There is actually value in having that escape key and all of those hardware control keys and I would be surprised if we

01:49:58   Didn't see this layout going forward, right? It's unfortunate

01:50:03   It's not there today

01:50:04   But I would be surprised if this is in the future like the center on the horizontal side camera these feel like iPad

01:50:10   Product line decisions that have just come here first

01:50:14   We often talk about the ways the subtle ways that the Mac subtle and sometimes not subtle ways that the Mac

01:50:21   Interface has been sort of iOS

01:50:23   If I'd in recent years

01:50:26   But it works both ways

01:50:29   Where there are habits from using a MacBook that you want to carry forward if you just want it all to be a seamless

01:50:36   you're in the Apple ecosystem and

01:50:39   obviously Apple would like it if you're the sort of person who owns both an iPad and a MacBook and

01:50:45   To have those habits part of the habit of using a MacBook is that you just reach up to that function key row

01:50:51   and I think it's also

01:50:53   Part of the reason that the touch bar had so many people who actually outright despised it

01:50:58   Is that it just broke a habit in that way and replaced it with?

01:51:01   Solutions that weren't as good for adjusting brightness as clever as it was that you could just touch it and slide it people didn't know

01:51:08   That you could do it

01:51:09   It wasn't obvious that you could just touch it yet people thought you had to tap it and then tap again and you can't feel

01:51:15   those buttons and click them and people just want to whack just tap a button to silence it all of a sudden a

01:51:21   Video starts playing sound just reach up with your finger and tap the button to silence it

01:51:27   Instantly people want to do that and not being able to do it with your iPad pros continues to be frustrating

01:51:32   So the question is why not why not have new keyboard for the iPad Pro right?

01:51:36   the answer is that they've got a lot of these keyboards out there already and

01:51:40   I

01:51:41   again suspect that there is a new keyboard coming for a new set of iPad Pro models and

01:51:48   That's for later. And so you just have to use because let's be honest. They would sell a bunch of these

01:51:54   300 and up keyboards if they added the function row a bunch of people would buy it just to get the function row

01:52:00   but they're not prepared to do that because that's

01:52:03   Obviously a 2023 or beyond sort of thing. Yeah, that's just the decision they made not to turn over those

01:52:09   I mean, it's on level it's good right because like don't make me buy another one of those but on another level

01:52:13   It's sad because I would love a function row on my keyboard

01:52:17   I would too and I also think most people would under it'd be better to have one that you have to reach under

01:52:21   The iPad to get to then not have it at all. Sure. So hopefully Apple is taking that to heart

01:52:26   I know that these briefings that we get are off the record and I agree I always agree and I'm gonna risk

01:52:32   Apple PR's ire by subtly breaking this and

01:52:36   Quoting somebody from Apple, but one of the people I was in the briefing with asked whether the new iPad regular iPads

01:52:43   magic keyboard folio comes in other colors and

01:52:47   The person from Apple said yes can get it in any color you want as long as it's white

01:52:53   Which I thought was and we all laughed but it is it's only so if you thought that the probe magic keyboards only being available

01:53:01   In a white and black or space gray or whatever. They call graphite whatever it's now that's limiting

01:53:06   This one's only white on the way it carries forward one of the least favorite and to me baffling and least Apple like

01:53:14   Decisions Apple has ever made in my lifetime

01:53:17   Which is the fact that the right the left bracket key is a full-size key and the right bracket key is a half-size

01:53:25   Key. Oh, yeah, so that's the key. That's a square bracket or with shift a

01:53:31   Curly bracket curly brace or whatever you want to call it left one full-size right one half-size

01:53:38   That's the same as with the 11 inch magic keyboard for the pros or the air

01:53:42   I find this decision to be so baffling and on Apple like that clearly these two keys are

01:53:49   Siblings that should be given equal weight because anytime you use one you eventually need to use the other

01:53:58   It's so and I get to that on this form factor

01:54:02   Numerous keys need to be smaller than they would be because it is a compressed because of the aspect ratio of the screen

01:54:09   It's actually a smaller significantly smaller keyboard

01:54:12   Than even a 13 inch MacBook Air and they're committed to keeping the letter the letters and numbers

01:54:18   To be full-sized right means everything else has to shrink so

01:54:23   Why in the world they wouldn't just make both of those keys

01:54:27   Three quarter size right right and there are three quarter size keys on this like the option key

01:54:34   Instead of writing it's not half-size. It's not full-size. It's three quarter size

01:54:38   The tab key is it was slightly different than the option key

01:54:43   But well, and there's the backslash bar key there too. They could take all three of those and make them

01:54:48   Yes, essentially fit in the two space as the all the same size and they didn't do that

01:54:55   But at the very least the two brace keys should be the same width

01:54:58   Whether they'd each be two-thirds or each be three-quarters or even if they were both half

01:55:04   I even if they were both the type that's the smallest size

01:55:07   But they should be the same size the asymmetry of those two keys for a company that is obsessed with symmetry

01:55:13   It that that I just can't believe it

01:55:16   I honestly find that to be the most surprising one of the most surprising design decisions

01:55:20   They've ever made and I can't believe they didn't take a chance to correct it here, but they didn't

01:55:26   Yeah, maybe next time all right

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01:58:11   It's a is it a suit?

01:58:13   It depends on one oh, no tucked into the lapel of a suit

01:58:20   Mmm with a dead battery anything else on the iPads?

01:58:23   I get home stretch and just talk about iPad OS but if you have any other things about these the hardware

01:58:29   I don't think so

01:58:30   I think the overview is that taken on their own

01:58:32   They all are kind of reasonable and then you look at the big picture and you're like why did that happen?

01:58:36   But that's other than the pencil adapter, which is just a weird thing that happened

01:58:40   But yeah, it's I'd really like I guess this would be my wrap-up is I think the 10th generation iPad is great

01:58:45   I think that a14 processor like you can do anything unless you're a high-end video

01:58:50   Person or something like you can do anything with that thing if you're looking for like a compact writing device or something like that

01:58:56   You don't really need an iPad Pro for that or even an iPad air you could be out there with this thing. That's fairly small

01:59:03   You get the keyboard thing and I don't love the kickstand but like 700 bucks. That's your low-cost Apple laptop

01:59:09   That's an iPad. Yeah, and it includes the trackpad. That's it's a really nice device

01:59:14   The only thing I would say that that makes me sad about it is that keyboard does require the kickstand

01:59:19   which means if you want something laughable you do have to spend a

01:59:23   Couple hundred dollars more to get that iPad air with the keyboard. Yeah

01:59:26   I really do wish that it somehow were they'd been able to make it work with the

01:59:31   Magic keyboard and let you choose which one you wanted if you'd rather have this or not

01:59:36   And one of the reasons they made it two pieces. It's clearly didn't have to be two pieces

01:59:40   but they did it on purpose so that you can just use the back as a kickstand and

01:59:44   If you don't need the keyboard if you so, you know

01:59:47   There there's definitely use and and there it it'll fit better on like an airplane tray table

01:59:53   then a magic keyboard would write that if you just leave the keyboard in your bag and just put the back on and you've got a

02:00:00   Terrific kickstand just for watching a movie or something like that

02:00:04   And it folds all the way around you can put the keyboard on the other way backwards and it'll reject the keys

02:00:10   But then you can fold the keyboard over and just use it to draw and stuff like that

02:00:15   There's there's flexibility there

02:00:16   but I do wish it worked with both because if you really want a laptop that you can like use on your actual lap or

02:00:23   Like my son does everywhere. He goes. It's just walk around with it

02:00:27   Open as he continues to watch movies with his air pods in you can't do that with this

02:00:33   So, oh the other thing I guess we didn't talk about the colors. I think the colors are terrific. They look great

02:00:38   They said a good job

02:00:40   Yeah, they sent me yellow, but I saw all of them in person in New York, and I thought they were all terrific

02:00:45   I thought it was a great blue great pink. I love the yellow yellow. I think is the

02:00:48   And I would not have expected it if you just told me yellow would be my favorite

02:00:53   I would have thought that's weird, but I really like it. Yeah, it's super yellowy gold. Basically. It's really nice

02:00:58   Yeah, the blue is gorgeous and the pink which seemed pretty pretty red to me

02:01:03   But it's like they're eye popping colors

02:01:04   They're really good Apple has this tendency to come out with colors on their products sometimes that are a little too subtle

02:01:11   even the iPad air is like that and these are not subtle and I love it and I wish that Apple would have a

02:01:16   broader color palette for all of its products where it accepts that some people want them to be subtle and some people don't and instead

02:01:24   They seem to have just decided higher end products

02:01:26   Can't be colored anything but subtly and low end products can be bright and exciting which is I think it's too bad

02:01:32   But yeah, these they look great. Like you will not be sad if you buy a blue iPad 10th generation

02:01:38   It's gonna stand out and and be a nice little iPad. Yeah, so iPad OS is shipping

02:01:43   Well, it'll be out by the time this podcast is out. So and along with iOS 16.1, but that's not nowhere near as big a deal

02:01:50   I mean, this is the first iPads are getting to the iOS 16 train

02:01:57   I've been using it for months on my iPad and they've relented. I don't know if I've mentioned this on any recent episode

02:02:04   I know everybody listening probably does know that stage manager is no longer

02:02:09   limited only to the m1

02:02:12   iPads it's like all iPad pros from 2018 onward. It's

02:02:17   Let's just say I've got popcorn

02:02:22   In the house ready to pop for when this hits everybody who's been reluctant to try the betas

02:02:28   You know and people get their first taste of stage manager on iPad OS and not because I think it's a disaster

02:02:35   I actually this to me it's what's interesting is I think there are clearly problems with it

02:02:40   I don't think it's been I don't think it's really ready. I don't I think hopefully they keep cooking. Yeah how it works

02:02:47   But it's not like this terrible terrible

02:02:51   like if they had shipped the

02:02:54   Redesigned Safari tabs from last year the ones that I spent thousands of words

02:02:59   Disparaging and then they relented and said you know what never mind. We're not gonna do it

02:03:04   I think that was an unmitigated disaster, which is why I wrote about it as

02:03:09   Fearsomely, I don't know what word to describe it as I did because I really thought it was a disaster if they shipped it

02:03:17   I did not do that with stage manager for iPad because

02:03:21   I have very mixed feelings about it

02:03:24   And I think the fact that there was so much demand for it from users whose iPad pros

02:03:29   Weren't yet m1's shows that people want to try it or like the idea of it

02:03:35   And I think some people might be very happy. I think I think it's gonna be very bifurcating when it comes out

02:03:40   I think there's gonna be some people who get it and you and they're like I love it. This is great

02:03:45   I can't believe all of you people who've been complaining about it for months about the betas. You're just a bunch of

02:03:51   Grumpy grippers looking to complain. This is terrific. And then I think there's gonna be other people who are like, I can't believe Apple shipped this

02:03:57   Yeah, I agree. It's definitely gonna be split the nice thing is it's a mode

02:04:02   So if you don't like it, you can just turn it off and not use it and the old the old split-screen

02:04:05   Multitasking thing is still there. They didn't take it away, which they could have done, right?

02:04:10   They could have been like everything's got windows now. Good luck everybody and they didn't do that

02:04:14   But it feels like a work in progress. I think that you got that exactly right it

02:04:20   There's more that needs to be done and it feels like they just run it

02:04:22   They ran out of time and they're shipping it and I think the key and I was thinking about this as I wrote my Mac OS

02:04:27   review too, but I think it's true about iOS as well as our iPad OS is

02:04:31   Apple in the past has had this tendency to ship features and then forget them

02:04:37   Right, like here it is and then like even the original iPad multitasking everybody's like, but what about this and this very obvious things?

02:04:45   that you need to fix and

02:04:48   Silence for two years and then they fix them and there's a bunch of stuff in Mac OS and iPad OS and stage manager

02:04:55   Is one of them where it's you guys are on the path to something here

02:04:59   But you're not there yet. And if you abandon this now and say see you in a year or two

02:05:07   You are doing

02:05:10   Every user a huge dis service you more

02:05:14   I feel like a teacher that's sort of where I ended up with my Mac OS review too is like see me after class

02:05:19   It's like this is an incomplete. You need to keep working on it. You're not done with your job. So I hope that

02:05:24   Apple is

02:05:26   Looking at stage manager and the system settings in Mac OS and a bunch of these kind of features and being like, okay

02:05:32   we have to ship this but

02:05:34   We are going to keep iterating on it throughout the year

02:05:38   You're not gonna have to wait until the next version of the OS

02:05:41   We're gonna keep on plugging here because we know that we have more work to do

02:05:46   And if that's what they do with stage manager

02:05:48   I think stage manager has a future if they let it sit there for a year or two

02:05:52   everybody's just gonna turn it off and forget that it existed or at least a lot of people are and

02:05:56   There is a way forward here like I saw a tweet today

02:06:01   That that I put the link in for you. Maybe you can put in the show notes

02:06:05   It's from Steve Trotton Smith the developer. Mm-hmm, and he has a lot of experience with Windows systems as well

02:06:10   So he knows how they're like the tiling works on Windows and he says the iPad doesn't doesn't really match up and I don't love

02:06:16   Tiling but he it's true

02:06:18   It's way easier and more intuitive to do that sort of thing on Windows

02:06:21   But he made a bulleted list that I think is really good

02:06:23   Which is here's what you could do make stage creation manual. So with it isn't creating stages all the time

02:06:30   Let you move the windows around per pixel, even if it's not the default

02:06:35   So so they don't all auto rearrange which is one of my great frustrations is you gave us

02:06:40   Arbitrary windows and then said they can't be arbitrary, right? Why make that decision?

02:06:47   It's like one of the other but to be in the middle is so strange

02:06:50   Steve says new windows should always be created by default in the current stage not spawning a new stage

02:06:56   Never kick back to the springboard

02:06:58   Let the stage be empty if it needs to be and he says remove the four window limit

02:07:04   Which sure and then put together an API package supporting stage manager, but like his list there. I

02:07:10   Mean it really goes to the heart of what I find frustrating about stage manager is I can't get the windows where I want to

02:07:16   Be when I click on links they open or tap on app icons

02:07:21   They open in weird places that take me away from my work and then I have to spend time dragging everything back around

02:07:26   like it's all the pieces are there but there's just a bunch of detail work that needs to be done and I

02:07:33   Really? Hope that Apple is gonna spend the next six months doing the detail work because that's my that's my overall feeling about stage

02:07:41   Manager is I don't think it's fundamentally a bad idea

02:07:44   I just think it's not done and if Apple thinks it's done

02:07:49   We have a problem if Apple thinks that they can go a year without fixing it

02:07:52   We have a problem, but if Apple is gonna keep working on it. All right, that's then that's fine. Let's do that

02:07:58   It's a very ambitious feature and I yeah, I really am

02:08:03   understanding of that and I have to invent windowing on iPad OS right max stage manager has some issues but like they have

02:08:10   Decades of windowing right? Whereas the iPad has none none. They had to invent all windowing to do this feature

02:08:18   which is a lot of just

02:08:20   pure programming work right like just to do it is a lot of work for the programmers to actually just

02:08:28   even if they know if you have a surefire this

02:08:55   And

02:08:57   It never existed before right and but then the other aspect is that play testing aspect

02:09:01   Which is I think what you're getting at which is that you kind of have to try it

02:09:04   When you have a new idea like this and it applies it's not just for games

02:09:09   But if you're inventing a new game whether it's a video game or a real game

02:09:12   You're I don't think there's I'm quite certain. There's never been a game that's been invented purely just by writing the rules

02:09:21   and then

02:09:24   Releasing it and it takes off and and it's instantly popular

02:09:28   you've got to play it and then oh, you know what this it would be better if we did blind like

02:09:33   We don't have time to get into baseball and who knows where my Yankees are gonna be by the time this podcast comes out on Monday

02:09:40   but but for example, I was just reading about the history of baseball and Aaron judge and the home run record and

02:09:47   Strikeout records and stuff like that and that like in the 1870s

02:09:51   You got five balls instead of four balls and the pitchers mound was only 50 feet away instead of 60 feet away

02:09:57   And it's like they figured things out like oh, that's way too close because once we found people who really can pitch that's too close

02:10:03   We got to move that back and five balls is too many

02:10:06   We'll make it for you need to adjust rules for a game or a card game or a board game or a video game

02:10:13   You got to start playing it and then you figure out what's wrong and when you're designing an interface system like this you got it

02:10:19   Come up with a good idea implement it

02:10:21   And you've no matter how fast the programmers are to implement the features

02:10:27   Even if you could snap your fingers and make them happen

02:10:30   You have to kind of live with it and let many people live with it and then sort of figure out

02:10:35   Where you know?

02:10:38   Where the leaks are pour water all over the roof and see what leaks and then patch it and adjust it and tweak the rules

02:10:44   I really still can't help but think

02:10:46   that

02:10:48   Ideally stage manager would have been a 2023 thing and it that secretly within Apple

02:10:54   They'd be doing all this work right now as they've done

02:10:57   Or at least on iPad because I do think it's more cohesive on Mac

02:11:02   It's not for me on Mac because I'm very happy with tradition. Oh the Federighi line

02:11:06   I forget if it was in the keynote or on my talk show

02:11:08   But that basically they're not saying to anybody who's perfectly happy with the way Mac

02:11:13   Windowing works now that you have to change anything at all or even know that it exists

02:11:18   But if you find that you get too much windowing clutter

02:11:21   Stage manager might be for you and that's what it's designed for right but on iPad it's going the other way, right?

02:11:28   It's on the Mac. It's like a simplified decluttering way of using your Mac on the iPad. It's intended to be a

02:11:34   complexifying

02:11:37   complicating

02:11:38   Do more see more at once?

02:11:41   Feature and it's it that's more ambitious and I just feel just what it should be

02:11:48   I don't think anybody's really quite knows what it should be that list that you just read from

02:11:52   Steven is a one way that it could be improved, but it just shows how much

02:11:56   Through no fault of their own

02:12:00   I don't think I accept for their decision that it was going to ship this fall which they are responsible for and here it is

02:12:06   But hopefully they don't stop pushing the idea forward just because it's officially out

02:12:12   Yeah, if I have like I like having new features, they're great

02:12:16   But if I had a trouble point that I wanted to cite about what Apple's been doing the last few years in software

02:12:22   thinking about that Safari thing thinking about stage manager, it's

02:12:26   Whatever the filter is

02:12:30   For stuff that's gonna get in the new OS release and is gonna be on stage at

02:12:34   WWDC it sure feels like

02:12:37   They're more confident in their ability to ship a feature and have people like it and have it be good

02:12:44   Then they actually are

02:12:46   Mmm, because you ideally right and they get that it's great that they listen to people, right?

02:12:51   it's great that Safari the Safari URL bar changed I think but

02:12:56   Shouldn't they have had that happen inside, right?

02:13:01   Shouldn't there be enough of a filter on the inside for the people who say oh, this is a bad idea

02:13:06   We shouldn't do this. They're like, okay

02:13:08   Well, let's not announce it and we'll work on it some more from stage manager

02:13:11   Like what was their confidence level that like, oh, we've got this solved. We've totally got this figured out. We're gonna ship it this fall

02:13:16   It's gonna be great because whoever had that confidence. I think it was misplaced and I don't know whether it's about

02:13:23   Issues with the work environment. I don't know whether it's somebody making decisions who's not listening to other people on their staff or

02:13:31   People are telling them what they want to hear but that troubles me a little bit that Apple is making these events in June

02:13:38   I think with some degree of confidence that they're going to be ready and

02:13:43   Then discovering that it's way more complicated than they thought and that troubles me a little bit

02:13:49   Like that, they should have a better filter up front to say this isn't gonna be ready

02:13:53   Yeah, so let's not announce it and they haven't done that two years in a row now with a major feature

02:13:57   Yeah, the other thing and I know I saw some other tweets from Steven trout and Smith over the weekend where he had like

02:14:03   Animated or better of their movies or gifts or what but just comparing moving three windows around on iPad with stage manager versus

02:14:11   Windows 11

02:14:13   Yeah

02:14:13   And I know enough about windows modern windows to know this that the one thing that windows I think is clearly better than

02:14:21   iPad at in this regard is that the difference between a

02:14:27   Ranged windows that are arbitrarily sized

02:14:30   versus tiled windows that expand to the borders of the screen so like

02:14:36   Are much they're completely cohesive within windows. It's the same thing

02:14:42   Just you just sort of drag it to the edge and it snaps to become

02:14:46   Panel, that's the full height and sticks to the borders and drag it towards the middle to untile it and make it a thing

02:14:54   whereas

02:14:56   split view and stage manager and iPad OS are completely different and

02:15:01   That to me is a real

02:15:05   problem in the overall design where you've got two entirely different modes of

02:15:11   putting content from two different windows side by side are on the same screen and that there's no

02:15:18   cohesive way to just

02:15:22   It's very stilted and unnatural to me and I feel like if you described what they want

02:15:30   iPad OS 16 to be with stage manager and that was the

02:15:37   What it is was the first version of iPad?

02:15:40   OS that you were going to make there wouldn't be split-screen. It's somehow now they've incurred

02:15:47   I'll call it technical debt, but it's like technical user interface debt by having had this split-screen mode that they actually can't get

02:15:55   rid of because there are

02:15:57   Including the brand new

02:16:00   Regular iPad, but there's so many iPads that aren't going to support stage manager

02:16:04   so split-screen still has to be there for those iPads, but

02:16:08   It's very unnatural to me and very I don't know how to explain to somebody when they would want to use split view and when

02:16:15   They should be using stage manager

02:16:17   Well, right and you go to all this effort to have two windows be side by side and it's like well, wait a second

02:16:23   That's just split view and in fact if you turn off if you're in that mode and you turn off stage manager

02:16:28   It just goes into split view. So it's like it's actually split view behind the scene, right? And yeah, it comes back to my big

02:16:34   complaint which I think is gonna even be more when they turn on external display support, which is I think fundamentally

02:16:41   They're trying to have it both ways where they want. It's like well, we're gonna give you max style windows

02:16:45   But we're gonna control where they go and what sizes they can and what sizes they can be and like I try to make a window

02:16:52   Half height size and it's like no it has to be the full height size

02:16:54   I'm like why why does it have to be that way?

02:16:57   It's because the system says it has to be right and this is like I

02:17:00   Understand what they're doing here and I want to be sympathetic to them on one level

02:17:03   This is very hard. All of this is hard, but on a higher philosophical level

02:17:07   I have to say if you're gonna make max style windows, you don't get to play iPad games and say well

02:17:13   We actually tell you how big your windows are

02:17:15   Like if you're gonna make max style windows

02:17:17   You got to let me make them whatever size I want and put them wherever I want. You have to do that

02:17:21   Otherwise, what are we even doing here?

02:17:23   Like why didn't you just do tiling like windows at that point if we're gonna do that because the beauty of Mac windowing I

02:17:29   Think and everybody windows different everybody handles their windowing different

02:17:33   but I find the beauty of it is you put a big pile of windows on your screen and

02:17:37   you can see them usually and there's a gesture if you can't and

02:17:41   When you want to use one of them you click on it

02:17:43   And you can move it where you want and you use it and then you say oh now I want to be in that window

02:17:48   And you click on it. It's not that hard

02:17:50   I know it's not neat but it's like it works really well and has worked really well for decades

02:17:55   To have it be that you like you get windows, but you can't

02:17:59   Make them the size you want or put them where you want. It just the system just won't allow you

02:18:04   I don't know what we're doing here, right?

02:18:06   Like it's like why would you go to this trouble of making windows and then say oh, but you can't control them

02:18:12   Like why would you do that? And yet that's where we are with stage manager on the iPad. I don't get it

02:18:18   I don't it seems poorly thought out. It seems like a compromise is what it feels like

02:18:23   It seems like somebody convinced them that they could do windowing on the iPad

02:18:27   after a long argument and then after they agreed they immediately said but

02:18:32   You can't control them. That's our compromise. It's like I don't know why we're what we're even doing here

02:18:38   Well, I always like to say it's one of my favorite recurring things that I like to hammer

02:18:42   Is that it's not just what your top priorities are. It's the exact order of them

02:18:47   Matters significantly if you have three priorities for any project or endeavor

02:18:53   Which ones first which one second which ones third can have profound differences

02:18:58   even if the all three of them seem like they go together and aren't in conflict with each other and

02:19:03   I I feel like where they're out of whack with stage manager for iPad is

02:19:08   They've I it feels to me and I sort of feel this comes directly from Federighi

02:19:14   I mean, I don't know this but I'll throw Craig Federighi under the bus and I kind of cuz it just feels like

02:19:20   Like he's come out and almost said it that it's the option to avoid clutter

02:19:26   And the it's such a high priority

02:19:29   That that any option but there's no option

02:19:34   Well by turning on stage manager, right that using stage manager is optional on both Mac and iPad

02:19:40   And that's true

02:19:41   One of the goals should be to avoid clutter and I think that's truly an admirable idea for this feature on both platforms

02:19:49   but I feel like

02:19:51   It's such a high priority on iPad that it's what makes these awkward restrictions that they won't

02:19:59   There's no possible way to get cluttered and therefore

02:20:03   There's all sorts of things you'd like to do that

02:20:06   You can't I linked to a video that a guy named Jeff Holbrook made the other

02:20:10   Day where he was trying to figure it out on his iPad and the one scenario he got into he had like a window on

02:20:16   the left and he had a picture-in-picture video up in the top right and

02:20:21   Then there's like this two-thirds height gap on the right side of the screen and he wanted to make this other window

02:20:28   Fill that and there was no way to make it fill the whole space

02:20:32   It's like an obvious space to be filled to have three windows and three windows. It wasn't like a contrived

02:20:39   arrangement it was so let's I don't know what they were but let's say it was like

02:20:44   web browser on the left a video playing in the top right and you'd want notes in the in that two-thirds height gap in the

02:20:51   lower right corner to

02:20:53   Take notes of the stuff that's in the email on the left as you watch this video and you there was no way to make

02:20:59   The window fill the gap it and it's obvious that it should be I'll point out that on the Mac if you do picture-in-picture

02:21:05   If you hold down there's a little tip for everybody out there if you hold down

02:21:09   I believe it's the command key. You can drag the picture-in-picture window anywhere you want

02:21:14   position it anywhere you want on the iPad you can't it has to be in a corner and

02:21:19   I feel like this is a similar thing, which is like I'm kind of okay with the system

02:21:25   Trying to keep my windows tidy right to a certain point

02:21:29   But like it is my device and if I want it in that corner and if I want it to be this size

02:21:34   There's got to be a way for me to do that and right

02:21:38   I think it comes back to the fact that this is a feature that is introducing

02:21:41   windowing to an entire platform for the first time

02:21:43   that is like you said priority wise but it is a

02:21:48   Tidying and focusing feature, right?

02:21:51   it's go back to 1984 at the original Mac and why they called it the desktop and why they called it a desktop metaphor and

02:21:58   used actual folders for what were previously and still

02:22:02   technically known as directories in the file system and that

02:22:06   Documents files actually looked like pieces of paper with dog-eared corner to show that it's a document

02:22:12   but when you had these windows

02:22:14   and that they could overlap and you could make them whatever size you wanted to and

02:22:18   Position them wherever you wanted to on screen right down to and wherever you let go of the mouse as you moved it

02:22:24   it just stayed right there and I

02:22:26   It was revolutionary at the time that there were certainly like word processors that could open three documents at a time

02:22:34   But you couldn't see all three at the same time and how you switched was different between each one and here you could arrange your

02:22:39   Windows so that you could see each one

02:22:41   Tiled down into the left and you could see them and click them and you couldn't magically show on a tiny 9-inch Mac display

02:22:48   you couldn't see the full width of multiple ones at the same time, but you could see the windows and how they were ordered and

02:22:55   If you kept opening windows, yes, you'd have too many and it would be tough to manage them

02:23:02   But that was because you opened them but everything was where you put it with stage manager on iPad

02:23:08   It's like as if the papers

02:23:10   somehow magnetic and there's magnets on your desk and you're trying to move the paper you want a piece of paper or an index card right

02:23:18   Here and every time you put it where you want it the magnet in your desk slides it over to the right more and it's always

02:23:24   Over on the edge of your desk and you're like no, I just want to put this index card where I've got these phone numbers

02:23:29   I just want it right here and every time you let go of it. It just flies over to the side of your desk

02:23:34   It's maddening and it's like it like you said it'd be great if it's optional and there was like a button

02:23:38   You could press so that you could snap it over to the side if that's what you want

02:23:42   But if you are a button you could press so that you could just put it wherever you want. I don't know it's

02:23:47   For lack of a better word. It's too un-mac like on iPad and I don't want iPad to become Mac OS

02:23:56   it's absolutely its own character, but the

02:23:59   restrictions of stage manager on iPad OS art should be more Mac like in terms of giving you

02:24:05   Some way to get precision control to say I know what I'm doing. I want this window exactly here, right?

02:24:11   It's like they're giving you they say congratulations. We're giving you absolute freedom and then with their next breath

02:24:17   They're like, but you can't have it. You actually can't and like I said, I don't understand the point

02:24:21   If you're not gonna let you got to give people if you're gonna grant free will

02:24:26   You need to live it down right? You need to let them make bad decisions

02:24:30   Yes, because because it turns out that the a mess of windows on your screen isn't is actually it's messy

02:24:36   I know but it's actually kind of

02:24:38   Productive it's a good productivity tool for a lot of people and then if they want to tidy it up and put it in different

02:24:43   Spaces and all that great let them do that

02:24:46   But you got to give people the freedom to do that and right now stage manager feels like a yeah

02:24:50   It's a feature where they wanted to be sort of Mac like but then the iPad

02:24:54   Desire to override and control everything kind of came back in and you end up with a feature

02:24:59   That's just it's neither fish nor fowl right now. It needs more freedom at least optionally and

02:25:04   To go back to my original point

02:25:07   I really hope they keep working on it and keep trying to figure it out because the worst thing for the

02:25:11   Platform as a whole would be that for Apple to act like they had solved it and walk away

02:25:16   and then it's just this forgotten button in control center that's off by default and

02:25:21   People toggle it and they're like, why would I do this and that nothing happened? Hopefully not I hope and I again

02:25:27   I think one of the best

02:25:29   Reasons for them to pursue it isn't just that it's the right thing to do in the abstract but that there's clearly so much enthusiasm

02:25:34   In the user base for the basic idea of the feature. There's so much enthusiasm for it

02:25:43   Yes, so hopefully they listen. All right, I'm gonna call it a wrap. I have one last thing

02:25:47   I want to mention I got to say it while you're on the show. Have you seen the other Letterman show on Netflix?

02:25:53   Yes, we discovered it last weekend. It's that's my time with David Letterman and it is

02:26:00   Fantastic. I'm so glad it is and I but yet as a huge letterman fan somehow I did we did the same thing

02:26:08   We're I I even saw it there in the Netflix suggestions and I was like, yeah, I don't know what that is

02:26:14   I don't know and we even like Amy and I like watching stand-up comedy together, but

02:26:18   Basically, what are they like 20 minutes?

02:26:20   It is you know how they make like deconstructed meals where they take all the ingredients and they put them out separately and all that

02:26:27   Mm-hmm. I feel like Letterman is essentially deconstructing his show into other shows on Netflix

02:26:34   So, you know, there's the main interview show. My next guest needs no introduction

02:26:38   That's the big star who comes on your talk show and you talk to them, but this is literally

02:26:42   Him taking obviously inspired I think by his experience with Johnny Carson and then doing it on his show. He's taking

02:26:49   the

02:26:52   stand-up comedian segment from a late-night show

02:26:55   where they come out and

02:26:58   Do they so he comes out and does his monologue they come out and do their stand-up and then he

02:27:04   Invites them over to the couch and they have a little bit of chat and it's like 20 minutes long and he did this

02:27:09   I mean they recorded these at the at that Netflix Comedy Festival

02:27:11   So they obviously recorded these over a very short period of time one night two nights. I don't know not too much

02:27:17   But they're great. I've only watched a couple of them

02:27:20   They're really good because he gets to show off a comedian that he thinks is worth hearing from and he gets to chat with them

02:27:28   After they do a little set. I love it. I love it. It's such a great idea

02:27:31   It's like how do you do?

02:27:32   How do you get comedians on Netflix without?

02:27:34   The overhead of them having to do a whole Netflix special and the answer is David Letterman asked them to come on and do five

02:27:39   Minutes. Yeah, it's it's really terrific. I also

02:27:42   Really love his monologues, which to me have much more of an old 80s late-night with David Letterman feel there is something to it

02:27:51   That I don't know how he's dialed it back, but he

02:27:55   Every one to me each I forget how many of them we watch we're like five or six into it

02:28:00   But I was like, this is really more like old young Dave is humor in the style and the pace and it's like man

02:28:07   He's still got it. He is very comfortable up there in my opinion. Yeah. Oh, I agree

02:28:12   Also, I like to think that even though Dave

02:28:14   Letterman was so influential in our lives and he's so much older than we are

02:28:18   I enjoy the fact that all three of us have a son who just went on

02:28:24   That just I think that's hilarious that David Letterman son is all like you like yours and mine

02:28:30   Yeah, a freshman in college this fall. That's amazing. That's bizarre. I've never would have expected it when I first became a Letterman fan

02:28:37   But here we are. Yeah, you go to your go to the if you pick your college, right?

02:28:41   You go to the parents weekend. Yeah, I letterman's here. I figured you'd seen it

02:28:45   I'm actually I feel good that you're not like oh, yeah, I watched it three months ago and noticed it

02:28:50   So I'm glad that we're on the same footing but I figured while you're on

02:28:55   I would toss it to you in case you hadn't seen it and as a suggestion out there for everybody to watch it is it's

02:29:00   Good and short. Yeah, that's like if you don't need a lot of time

02:29:04   You just pop it on for 20 minutes and you when you got some time to watch it

02:29:07   Yeah, or like I'm not quite ready for bed, but don't want to come into it

02:29:12   It's like 20 minutes if that's what you're looking for

02:29:14   I and which I love I love just playing with the form of how long a show can be and

02:29:19   18 19 20 minutes and then you can then you're like, yeah, that was funny and I'll go to bed and also

02:29:24   So far every single one of the comedians has been terrific. Mm-hmm

02:29:28   Yeah, when I was in high school, I taped late night with David Letterman and watched a lot of it

02:29:33   I would watch actually the next morning before I went to school

02:29:35   I just wake up at like 6 30 in the morning and watch it and

02:29:38   I wasn't interested in all the celebrity guests

02:29:40   So often what I would end up doing is watch the Letterman monologue and if I didn't like the celebrity guests

02:29:45   I would usually watch the comedian right and it's that's exactly what this show is

02:29:50   What if it was just monologue and they he used to do a comedy bit at the desk afterward

02:29:54   But it's like monologue comedian chat with comedian and you're out and it takes 20 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, it was a real throwback

02:30:00   Yeah, so anyway, that's my recommendation. All right. I thank you for your time Jason everybody, of course

02:30:06   Thank you. John can read all of your stuff at six colors calm. I'm presuming on Monday when this episode comes out

02:30:12   what are you gonna have reviews of I

02:30:15   Got a Mac OS review that I've been sweating for weeks

02:30:18   I I and then I will be writing about the various iPads in one form to be determined

02:30:24   But whatever form it is, it'll be on six colors calm. Yeah

02:30:26   And you've got at least you do a podcast, right? Yeah a couple

02:30:32   Upgrade is probably the most relevant for these uses right upgrade which is over at relay FM with your co-host the excellent Mike Hurley

02:30:41   I will also mention the incomparable where there's a whole bunch of pop culture

02:30:45   Podcasts and I will thank the sponsors of this episode of the talk show

02:30:50   We had Linode where you can host host your own website manage and deploy an SSD server or database server now in their cloud

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02:31:24   Thanks, Jason. Thanks, Ron