The Talk Show

359: ‘Big Booger Came After You’, With Merlin Mann


00:00:00   You ever wear out a nail clipper?

00:00:02   I can't say that I have.

00:00:03   I, you, I, you might've recommended it to me.

00:00:06   I moved to the special Japanese nail clippers a few years ago, which are like a

00:00:09   practically surgical grade, but I've sometimes wondered, I wondered, are my

00:00:13   nails, am I getting old man nails?

00:00:14   Am I getting a nail that's harder to cut?

00:00:16   I don't think I've worn them out.

00:00:17   Are you running into that?

00:00:17   Well, what's this brand of Japanese nail clipper?

00:00:21   Sakura, I want to say.

00:00:23   Can you, we got to get this in the show notes.

00:00:25   Cause cause you know what?

00:00:27   I did the smart thing and I didn't re I didn't like your slippers from Mac

00:00:31   Weldon, right?

00:00:32   You got to stock up.

00:00:32   I've been using the tweezer man brand, which was a really nice upgrade.

00:00:36   So what happened to me years ago, many years ago, I was in Las Vegas, Nevada,

00:00:40   the city of sin city.

00:00:41   I needed to cut my nails as one does in Las Vegas.

00:00:46   And I went down to the, uh, the, you know, I don't know what you call the shop.

00:00:49   It's the shop of stuff that you forgot and water.

00:00:52   Right.

00:00:53   It's that's a good name.

00:00:55   Condoms, aspirin, nail clippers, band-aids, contact cleanse solution, you know,

00:01:00   whatever you call that store.

00:01:01   And I bought the tweezer man brand.

00:01:03   Oh, up until this point in my life, I'd had no name brand, just regular generic

00:01:08   nail clippers and I got these and the tweezer man ones look like that, but they've

00:01:12   got a nice logo.

00:01:12   I've used the tweezer man family of products.

00:01:15   Yeah.

00:01:15   It's a strong family.

00:01:16   I have to say it's it, whether it's the placebo effect, cause I had a brand name

00:01:21   and because at the win Las Vegas, it costs, I don't know, $15 or something for a nail

00:01:26   clipper.

00:01:27   It cut my nails much crisper with less pressure and uh, just like real

00:01:32   Gruber.

00:01:32   It's all about finding the right tools.

00:01:34   I've discovered a new compost bag.

00:01:36   I talked about it for 15 minutes on back to work.

00:01:38   I found a new brand of compost bag and it has changed our life.

00:01:43   All right.

00:01:44   It's amazing how getting the right tool will set you straight.

00:01:46   All right.

00:01:47   Secchi S E K I.

00:01:49   So let me get five.

00:01:50   I could please, John, if you allow it.

00:01:51   Secchi Edge nail clippers, SS one of six stainless steel finger nail clippers for

00:01:55   men and women, sharp cutting edges for thick nails, professional and home use made

00:01:58   in Japan.

00:01:59   It's available.

00:01:59   I could get it here by Sunday.

00:02:00   And as you can see, I like scissors in our house.

00:02:03   When you have a young person in the house, you know how the scissors disappear.

00:02:06   Yeah.

00:02:06   Oh, I've been losing scissors and then all of a sudden then you get six pairs.

00:02:11   Well, all of a sudden my son went to college and I haven't lost a single pair of

00:02:15   scissors in the last four weeks.

00:02:18   We just go through, we would go through this thing though, especially during

00:02:20   certain kinds of paper craft phases where there would be six pairs of scissors and

00:02:24   then there'd be no pair of scissors.

00:02:26   And then there'd be six pairs of scissors because mom will go in and go tear up

00:02:29   junior's room and discover that like, like some kind of a deranged crow, the person

00:02:35   had been unintentionally hoarding all of the scissors.

00:02:37   But I think you'll like these.

00:02:39   You can get them in toe size or finger size.

00:02:41   And I agree with what it says on the thing.

00:02:43   It's a smooth and easy action.

00:02:45   Well, what happened to me, what I noticed today with my, I like, I keep a downstairs

00:02:49   pair of nail clippers.

00:02:50   My office is on the ground floor.

00:02:52   And what I like to do when the weather is temperate is I'll cut my nails while I'm

00:02:57   out walking about the city.

00:02:58   Now this is, I think you will understand this.

00:03:00   This is a first, a conscientious human being who wants to be a courteous fellow

00:03:08   citizen.

00:03:09   This is, there's a bit of a dance here.

00:03:10   So the one idea is number one, I just, as I get older, I just like to take a walk more

00:03:16   and more.

00:03:16   Any reason to go out, take a walk, take a walk.

00:03:18   Number two, if you cut your nails outside, you don't have it.

00:03:21   You don't have to worry about shooting them into a trash can.

00:03:24   You don't have to worry about them shooting all over the room.

00:03:26   Or a beloved family member finding a toenail somewhere.

00:03:29   That's no good.

00:03:31   I mean, I really, that's the beginning of the end.

00:03:32   That's going to appear in court papers.

00:03:34   Well, and I, you know, and I'm a good family member too, is if I find a toenail in a

00:03:38   mysterious part of the house, and I'm quite certain it's not mine because I typically

00:03:42   cut mine outside and doesn't look like one of mine.

00:03:45   I won't call anybody out on it.

00:03:47   I won't say, oh, it's so important.

00:03:50   It's you to just not notice a lot of stuff about other people in the house.

00:03:54   I just, that's what a gentleman does.

00:03:55   I just pick it up.

00:03:56   I just, and you can pick up a fingernail very easily.

00:03:58   You don't even have to pinch it.

00:03:59   You just sort of have to press on it and it'll stick, but I'll go outside.

00:04:02   But then the other thing though is, let's face it, cutting your fingernails is a

00:04:06   personal grooming.

00:04:07   It should be done.

00:04:09   On the one hand, you don't want to make a mess inside your house anywhere.

00:04:11   And on the other hand, you don't want to bother complete strangers with it.

00:04:14   You certainly don't want to do it.

00:04:15   For example, on the bus,

00:04:17   I was, wasn't going to say this cause this is already gross, but I really felt like I

00:04:22   had become a resident of San Francisco the first time that I was on uni, which is our

00:04:25   public transit and a lady, a couple seats over took off her shoes and started trimming

00:04:30   her toenails.

00:04:30   Right.

00:04:31   And I guess I'm the weird one.

00:04:33   I was like the Eddie Albert in green acres character where I was like, is this bothering

00:04:37   anyone else that there's toenails flying through the train?

00:04:39   I don't remember if it was a bad dream or an actual tweet thread from back in the day

00:04:44   when this was the sort of thing that was the only thing on Twitter.

00:04:47   But I seem to recall somebody seeing some fellow across the aisle on an airplane who

00:04:52   was cutting his toenails.

00:04:54   Not just had his, not just took his shoes and socks off on the plane, but was actually

00:04:58   trimming his nails.

00:04:59   But that could have just been a bad dream.

00:05:01   But anyway, what I will do when I'm out and about is I will only cut my nails when it

00:05:05   looks like I'm the only person, you know, in eyesight down the block.

00:05:09   And if there are fellow pedestrians coming, then I'll

00:05:12   Is it analogous, if I'm being honest, John, is it analogous to a nosepick in some ways?

00:05:16   Oh, very much.

00:05:17   It's a thing everybody's got to do.

00:05:19   Or maybe like having AirPods in, which I know changes with transparency and stuff.

00:05:23   But still, I still feel weird about having AirPods on when I'm like in a store or

00:05:28   something like that.

00:05:29   But like a nosepick, that's tough to play off legit and you put others in an awkward

00:05:35   situation when you pick.

00:05:36   Yeah, that's exactly it.

00:05:37   So you don't want other people to see it.

00:05:39   I don't want other people to hear it.

00:05:40   You know, it's basic civics.

00:05:41   This should be taught in the schools, John.

00:05:43   And it's not too hard to find myself on a, you've only got 10 fingers.

00:05:46   So I was doing it, but I noticed this the last time I cut my nails.

00:05:49   I don't know.

00:05:50   Couple weeks ago, a week or two ago, who knows?

00:05:52   I don't really, I don't keep a log, but it there I'm winding up with nails that look

00:05:58   like I bit them as opposed to being cut.

00:06:01   They're not, it's not a clean.

00:06:02   Oh, see, this is going to be one of those things where you

00:06:05   wonder, like, I think most people, and I'll say this cause nobody else will say it.

00:06:09   I think most people always at some point in their life wondered if they wipe wrong.

00:06:12   And I think a similar thing happens with nails.

00:06:14   Well, I've never, I don't know if I've ever been taught how to do it where I don't

00:06:18   end up with weird angles.

00:06:20   Well, no, but this I'm telling you, this is, it's very clearly dull blades on the

00:06:25   cutting.

00:06:26   It's not a technique.

00:06:26   Well, you should get this Secchi Edge ones.

00:06:28   Cause I want to also note here, these I've gotten these before.

00:06:30   These are the studio series, John.

00:06:32   So this is like the, this is like the pro version of these studio series.

00:06:37   Well, I'm going to try them and I will, you'll be back on the show at some point

00:06:40   and I will, I'll make a note of it and report it, but I, but it occurred to me

00:06:43   knowing you were on the show and knowing that you have an interest in the

00:06:46   esoterica.

00:06:47   What's the word?

00:06:48   I sure do.

00:06:48   I mean, it's practically all I'm interested in.

00:06:50   As I do that.

00:06:51   I honestly, at the age of 49, I cannot recall ever having needed to buy a new set

00:06:58   of nail clippers because one wore out.

00:07:00   It's eventually I've had ones that broke, you know, where the lever, the little, you

00:07:05   know, in the traditional nail clipper model, the thing that, that flips around

00:07:09   for storage.

00:07:09   One of your, one of your five basic machines probably in some sense, right?

00:07:12   You're a physicist.

00:07:13   You know this.

00:07:14   I think you're doing now.

00:07:15   Let's look at, I don't know if it's an inclined plane.

00:07:16   It's probably at least a lever, right?

00:07:18   Yeah.

00:07:19   That's what we're doing.

00:07:19   Yeah.

00:07:20   That's it's ancient technology.

00:07:21   I'm sitting Chinese secret.

00:07:23   It's ancient technology, but it really does work.

00:07:26   And it's not like a razor.

00:07:27   Like you don't think you're going to like need to replace the blade.

00:07:30   Exactly.

00:07:30   But it, you, it is exactly though, like a razor.

00:07:34   Cause that's a lesson you learn early when you're, you're, well, for whatever

00:07:38   reason you're shaving your body.

00:07:39   Yeah.

00:07:40   Like I'm buying Bic razors in college, which I mean like no offense to the Bic

00:07:44   corporation.

00:07:45   I've enjoyed their pens, but like nobody should be shaving with a Bic razor.

00:07:48   It's really, I mean, it's like it was designed to cause problems for you.

00:07:54   Um, and you know, there's a thing my lady and I do, and this really is apropos of

00:07:57   our compost bags, which I'd be happy to talk about at length.

00:08:00   Obviously, but we have a thing we've been doing for 20 years called the tiny life

00:08:03   improvement project, which is when you try to become aware of things in your life

00:08:07   that are causing more friction than they need to.

00:08:09   And you make this seemingly like infinitesimal change to something that

00:08:14   suddenly improves your life.

00:08:15   And that's why I say these goddamn compost bags are changing everything for us.

00:08:19   And I'm saying to you, John, when you get the studio series, Secchi edge, SS one

00:08:22   oh six stainless steel finger, I think you're going to have a similar thing.

00:08:26   I think you're suddenly gonna say I was living a lie.

00:08:27   It's like getting a microwave.

00:08:28   Like what did I do before?

00:08:30   Yeah, I guess.

00:08:31   I hope so.

00:08:32   I just wanted to be even.

00:08:33   I just don't want, I don't want one weird, like Robert Evans, like coke nail.

00:08:37   I want them all to be kind of evened out, but then it's like cutting your own hair

00:08:41   where you're like, Oh, I should probably trim that one more.

00:08:43   And like, but pretty soon you got a blood disease.

00:08:46   Robert Evans.

00:08:47   That's the guy who was the, the paramount, the paramount chief.

00:08:51   You bet your ass it was.

00:08:52   Did you watch the offer on paramount plus?

00:08:55   Sure did.

00:08:56   I sure did.

00:08:56   Oh man.

00:08:58   Can we loved it?

00:08:59   I thought the guy who was Ozymandias in Watchmen, the guy who played Robert

00:09:02   Evans, he was incredible.

00:09:04   His voice was amazing.

00:09:06   Did you enjoy that?

00:09:07   I'm curious.

00:09:07   I told Syracuse about it, but obviously it's not a, an according to Hoyle

00:09:12   recommendation, but I really enjoyed it.

00:09:15   For people who don't know the offer.

00:09:17   This is part of this modern.

00:09:19   It's the type of show that never would have existed before.

00:09:21   Cause it was not a movie.

00:09:22   It should not have been a movie.

00:09:24   It shouldn't have been compressed to two hours, but it was a six part.

00:09:27   I believe it couldn't have been much.

00:09:29   I don't think plenty of plenty.

00:09:30   It was, it was a lot of, it wasn't like Netflix length, but they had

00:09:34   room to really spread their wings.

00:09:35   You can tell.

00:09:36   Here's one thing before we talk about the offer.

00:09:38   One thing I'm starting to notice with these limited run series, we just watched

00:09:41   the Dahmer one, which is on Netflix.

00:09:43   All right.

00:09:43   That one's rough.

00:09:44   Well, the wife is a fan of, uh, uh, what's his name?

00:09:48   The guy who was sort of the executive producer.

00:09:51   He does all the American.

00:09:52   Oh yeah.

00:09:52   I know who you mean.

00:09:53   The guy who does.

00:09:54   Yeah.

00:09:54   The, yeah, the guy who does, uh, all the things.

00:09:57   It's not like that actor, the actor who always he's getting like a, he used, I

00:10:00   just didn't know him from X-Men movies, but like, he's also getting a real career

00:10:03   as like, as playing a creep.

00:10:05   Ryan Murphy is the showrunner executive producer type and the star.

00:10:11   I think he did ratchet too.

00:10:13   And he did a bunch of stuff.

00:10:15   Yeah.

00:10:15   Um, anyway, we watched the Dahmer show and, uh, you know, it's, it's got, it had

00:10:21   some good, uh, I might not have watched it on my own, but knowing that she wanted

00:10:25   to watch it and I'm, I'm a fan of it.

00:10:27   And I liked the, I'm of the age now.

00:10:29   You've got to be too, where it's like, come on, take me back to the nineties.

00:10:32   All right.

00:10:32   I'll watch it.

00:10:33   Even if it's bad.

00:10:34   Thanks for so much simpler minute.

00:10:35   The back then.

00:10:36   And it was really, it was just bad meat that he had Evan Peters, Evan Peters.

00:10:40   And also net on Netflix.

00:10:42   If you do go to the lonely little Island called Netflix on the Apple TV, where you

00:10:47   can only get to it by using your meat fingers to click on the thing and get to

00:10:50   it.

00:10:50   And it's like, Oh, like which low budget murder thing will I watch tonight?

00:10:54   They're always shoveling.

00:10:56   Like someone in Sweden was murdered and they, then they try and Netflix does this

00:11:01   to endless, and I don't mean to sound American, a list here, but a lot of times

00:11:06   where they try to feed you something that's obviously from Brazil or something.

00:11:10   And you're like, I don't know if I want to do Portuguese for 10 episodes, but

00:11:13   they'll kind of jam it in a little bit and they get you a little bit.

00:11:17   So what did you think?

00:11:18   Well, all right.

00:11:19   Now, hold on.

00:11:20   I'm on, I'm still on Dahmer and I wanted to, that's what I'm talking about.

00:11:23   Well, I want to point out that it was a 10 part series.

00:11:26   Oh my God.

00:11:27   And of course, cause it's Netflix.

00:11:29   It's gotta be 10 episodes.

00:11:30   Right.

00:11:30   And it was that my number one takeaway is this would have been absolutely drop dead.

00:11:37   Surprisingly, you should definitely watch it if they had cut it down to five, maybe

00:11:41   six, there was five hours of solid content and the other, it was like, they might as

00:11:47   well have just been like breaking in with done, done, done, done, done, done, and put

00:11:52   up a title card that just says Netflix requires everybody to give 10 episodes.

00:11:56   Just don't that.

00:11:58   And I mean, there was a lot of filler anyway.

00:12:02   It was good.

00:12:03   I'm glad I watched it.

00:12:04   Wish I would have paid extra.

00:12:06   I would have paid a supercharge.

00:12:08   I'd upgrade to Netflix premium or pro if I could to get a cut, a professional

00:12:13   professional cut of this.

00:12:15   For a tighter cut.

00:12:15   You're going to need Netflix for the enterprise or Netflix ultra Netflix

00:12:20   enterprise, it's a lot larger and more rugged.

00:12:23   I, it is funny though, how Netflix does that thing where it really, I mean, I

00:12:27   guess it's enough that it's a bit at this point that they seem when they purchase

00:12:31   something or however it works out.

00:12:33   I don't know anything about the business of this, but whenever something gets made,

00:12:36   it does often seem like it is way longer than it needs to be, even when there's a

00:12:41   lot to talk about, but it was funny is like, I, for the first time ever, I

00:12:46   experienced the opposite of that.

00:12:48   A couple of weeks ago.

00:12:50   Have you seen this movie?

00:12:51   Actually, Amy might love this.

00:12:52   Have you seen this movie?

00:12:53   Do revenge?

00:12:54   No, it is on Netflix and it's how do I describe it?

00:12:59   It's the way I would describe it in some ways is you know how there is like a

00:13:04   kind of a spade of movies in the nineties that were obviously very indebted to, or

00:13:08   doing an homage to like nineties movies doing like eighties teen movies, right?

00:13:14   Well, this is like if Jen Y grew up watching Clueless or Heathers and like,

00:13:22   it's kind of a, it's obviously a little bit meta.

00:13:25   It really feels like one of those kinds of movies, but what's

00:13:29   funny is it's a movie, right?

00:13:30   It's however long it's like it's under two hours.

00:13:32   It's the first time I ever watched something and went, I bet this started as

00:13:36   a pitch for a TV show because the amount of stuff covered in it, it went by, there

00:13:42   was so much sort of placeholder stuff about relationships where they hadn't

00:13:47   really, as we used to say, sort of earned it.

00:13:49   And it's interesting that it goes, I wonder if a lot of folks and I don't

00:13:52   have a way to prove that's what it was, but my gut is this started as a pitch

00:13:56   for some kind of a series, maybe like a Hulu-ish six episode series.

00:14:01   And I wonder if people start now just pitching because they know a series is

00:14:06   probably more likely you might make more from it and you might get more exposure

00:14:10   with it.

00:14:10   Yeah.

00:14:11   I mean, you ever think about that?

00:14:12   Like how TV is like, well, obviously TV is kind of the thing now.

00:14:15   It's where the prestige is a lot of the time.

00:14:17   I don't know, man.

00:14:18   It's strange though.

00:14:19   It's, and your point though, about the offer is also true.

00:14:23   We're like, could you ever have imagined that there would be a TV show about the,

00:14:27   nominally about the making of a movie?

00:14:29   Like you just, you wouldn't, you don't get a lot of that stuff.

00:14:31   Yeah.

00:14:31   So back to the offer, which is where we started, but it's just fantastic.

00:14:36   I'm going to say, it's very focused on Albert Ruddy.

00:14:39   You know what?

00:14:39   I'm wrong.

00:14:40   It actually is 10 episodes.

00:14:41   But it, the fact that I remember it as being only six episodes shows that it was

00:14:47   actually maybe worth 10 episodes.

00:14:49   I don't remember.

00:14:50   I don't remember that it lagged.

00:14:52   So, all right.

00:14:53   It is 10 episodes, but it was 10 episodes worth of content.

00:14:56   It is told from the point of view of, Al Ruddy, who was a producer.

00:15:01   I'd never heard of the guy before a producer on the Godfather and it's how the

00:15:05   movie, the Godfather came to be.

00:15:07   Right.

00:15:08   I will say that my absolute favorite character in the offer was Robert Evans,

00:15:13   the studio chief played by, I did not know his name, Matthew Goode, G O O D E.

00:15:19   But I, he's been on Downton Abbey.

00:15:22   He was in the imitation game.

00:15:23   And to me, he's best known cause I'm an idiot.

00:15:26   Of course he was Ozymandias in the Watchmen movie and he's totes English.

00:15:30   I've I, and he's a secret Brit, John, secret bread.

00:15:33   He's the real deal.

00:15:34   It's like I was saying about Evan Peters.

00:15:37   Like an actor who can really, you just don't even, you might not even

00:15:40   know it's the same person.

00:15:42   You really might not.

00:15:43   I mean, you, who would have guessed that the Robert Evans in this was English,

00:15:45   but he steals the show and I wanted so much more of him.

00:15:50   I wanted, instead of a movie about the Godfather, I wanted a movie about

00:15:54   Robert Evans in this or a show about Robert Evans in the seventies.

00:15:57   Can't do that right now.

00:15:58   First of all, Hollywood, you don't leave anything on your plate.

00:16:00   Like I can't do it.

00:16:01   He does net that coked out Robert Evans voice so well.

00:16:06   And it is so easy to overact.

00:16:11   Coked out seventies studio executive and perhaps at certain, he had nuance.

00:16:17   He brought a lot of nuance to it.

00:16:18   Absolutely.

00:16:19   And there is without spoiling it.

00:16:22   This has to be something that inside the production, they had to

00:16:25   acknowledge that's what this scene was.

00:16:27   There's a Don Draper scene in the, you know what I'm talking about?

00:16:31   There's a meeting and he's not invited, but he comes in anyway.

00:16:36   Oh yeah.

00:16:37   Yeah.

00:16:38   Yeah.

00:16:38   Yeah.

00:16:38   And, and of course he's, he's so charming.

00:16:40   And so, yeah, he sweeps in and it's, it changes the room and he pulls it.

00:16:45   He really pulls it together and he changes the room and it's after, I think

00:16:49   that's after he'd had one of his like episodes.

00:16:52   Yeah.

00:16:52   Yeah.

00:16:53   It's, it's a really well cast show and it keeps.

00:16:56   It keeps moving in a way I liked it a lot.

00:16:59   I would recommend it.

00:17:00   And I was sort of dreading it cause I sort of thought like, Oh God, they're

00:17:03   just going to wreck there.

00:17:04   All this is going to do is wreck the Godfather for me.

00:17:06   Right.

00:17:07   Right.

00:17:08   And what, you know, what was weird that was, um, God, I can't, I think

00:17:11   I know the character's name.

00:17:12   I want to say Karev when the guy from Grey's Anatomy is Brando.

00:17:17   It was really confusing.

00:17:18   Oh yeah.

00:17:19   Yeah.

00:17:20   Did a good job.

00:17:20   Yeah.

00:17:21   I think he did a really nice job.

00:17:21   Boy, that's tell me that's not a tough, that's not a tough role.

00:17:24   I can't even imagine.

00:17:25   How do you do that?

00:17:26   How do you play Brando?

00:17:27   The guy who played Coppola, I thought he was, he didn't.

00:17:30   He's awesome.

00:17:31   I liked him in Fantastic Beasts.

00:17:32   Yeah.

00:17:33   Dan Fogler.

00:17:33   Yes.

00:17:34   He's fan.

00:17:35   He, I was about to say charming in Fantastic Beasts.

00:17:38   Yeah.

00:17:38   And that was another one of those things where I had no idea who he was as I'm

00:17:42   watching this and then watched.

00:17:44   Yeah.

00:17:45   Something and I had already seen Fantastic Beasts and I'm like, Oh, it's that guy.

00:17:49   Oh, the Baker.

00:17:51   The Baker.

00:17:52   And I'm like, ah, yeah.

00:17:55   Acting.

00:17:56   Yeah.

00:17:57   Yeah.

00:17:58   That's it's amazing.

00:17:59   Yeah.

00:17:59   I'm, I keep thinking about that thing.

00:18:01   Jonas texted your wife about how describing your job makes you sound like a dead beat.

00:18:04   You know what I'm saying?

00:18:07   The backstory on that is that Jonas went to a school here in Philadelphia that was K

00:18:13   through 12.

00:18:13   So he had shared many of his classmates from kindergarten through his senior year and a new

00:18:20   kids would come and go as the years went on.

00:18:22   But overall, his friends grew to just sort of understand what Jonas's dad does.

00:18:28   And so he didn't find himself in the position of explaining it, but now he's, he's a

00:18:33   freshman at college and I guess it comes up.

00:18:35   What do your parents do?

00:18:36   And yeah, just say he's an arms dealer or something dignified.

00:18:43   Can I tell you the one time the first time that his, he came home and said that his friends

00:18:48   were in, I don't know, sixth grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, five, six, seven, eight

00:18:52   years ago, sometime ago that his friends actually were impressed by me.

00:18:56   I'd love to believe me.

00:18:58   I would love to hear it.

00:18:59   It was when they found out I had a blue checkmark on Twitter.

00:19:02   Oh, sure.

00:19:04   Then it like blew their tops and me having a Wikipedia entry, which if I could delete, I

00:19:09   would.

00:19:09   Oh my God, please delete it.

00:19:10   I would love to delete it.

00:19:12   I've never looked at, I can't stand it.

00:19:14   No good will come of that.

00:19:15   No.

00:19:15   We're waiting in line outside.

00:19:17   One of our few forays a few months ago after things that, well, whatever, we shouldn't get

00:19:23   into COVID, but like, you know, you know, we're those people, you know, we're those liberals

00:19:29   that get all the shots and wear masks and everything.

00:19:31   There was a time when my Wikipedia page was marked for deletion because I wasn't notable

00:19:35   enough.

00:19:35   And I was like, yes, can I, can, am I allowed to vote for this?

00:19:39   I would love to vote for this.

00:19:41   Um, but it got voted down and it was anyway, but, but the blue, the blue checkmark was

00:19:47   apparently impressive, which I never asked for.

00:19:51   That was in the aftermath of Matt Hohne when Matt Hohne got hacked very badly and wrote a

00:19:57   fantastic piece about, I guess I should put it in the show notes, but I forget where Matt was

00:20:01   at the time if he was at Buzzfeed yet or somewhere else, but

00:20:04   the social engineering behind that was just so bananas.

00:20:06   Yeah.

00:20:07   It was, it would almost make like a good caper movie.

00:20:10   I would, I would cast Brad Pitt.

00:20:11   I still, I still yell at people on the phone.

00:20:14   Well, yell.

00:20:14   I still am a GOG sometimes when somebody reads me a piece of information, I sometimes say,

00:20:19   you're supposed to ask me for that.

00:20:21   Mm hmm.

00:20:22   Yeah.

00:20:22   Cause here's the thing.

00:20:23   Have you ever read somebody a piece of private information and they said, nope, that's not me.

00:20:28   I mean, that kind of defeats the purpose, but we will get, so we, we, we, we got onto, my kid

00:20:34   loves this really good musician, Ricky Montgomery.

00:20:37   I went to a Ricky Montgomery concert here in town and it was really fun.

00:20:40   Great group.

00:20:40   More waiting in line to go in.

00:20:42   There's a nice family from Davis, like from kind of like a ways away from here.

00:20:47   We had a nice vice visit with them.

00:20:48   And of course you get into the, what do you do?

00:20:51   How do you spend your time?

00:20:52   What's your job?

00:20:53   Right.

00:20:53   And I went, oh yeah, yeah, I mean stuff for the internet.

00:20:56   And my kid in a very loud, clear voice goes, ask him about how he invented the three white guys talking on a podcast genre.

00:21:04   I said, thank you, honey.

00:21:06   That's really sweet.

00:21:07   Also, you know that email thing you misunderstand?

00:21:10   That used to be me.

00:21:11   Yeah, that was all me.

00:21:12   I'm like a two docket of misunderstanding.

00:21:14   It came up at one point, Jonas took one computer science class in high school and they had to submit their, their, uh, read me files in markdown format.

00:21:24   And I said, you know, I said, you know, and he's, he just rolls his eyes.

00:21:30   That's such a big deal.

00:21:33   I'm like, you should get a better grade for this.

00:21:35   Tell your professor.

00:21:36   You're never going to do anything that comes close to that.

00:21:40   Yeah.

00:21:41   You're done.

00:21:42   I'm done.

00:21:42   I've got, I take my hat off.

00:21:44   Yeah.

00:21:44   I should just end the show.

00:21:46   Honestly.

00:21:46   You know what?

00:21:47   You had a good run.

00:21:47   I mean, an okay run.

00:21:49   You had an okay run.

00:21:49   But anyway, apparently when you go off to college and what does your dad do?

00:21:53   Describing what I do is understandably, I've been there.

00:21:56   I was like, welcome to my life, kid.

00:21:58   But his take was that I sound like a deadbeat.

00:22:03   Yeah.

00:22:03   He makes dick jokes on the internet.

00:22:05   He's all right.

00:22:05   He has a podcast.

00:22:07   Does not sound anywhere.

00:22:08   Doesn't have anywhere near as much cache now as I believe when.

00:22:13   Dan and I started, it was 2007, which I it's kind of early.

00:22:17   That's possible.

00:22:18   Yeah.

00:22:19   I looked it up on the web.

00:22:21   Or cause you had a thing before five by five was yeah.

00:22:24   Yeah.

00:22:24   Yeah.

00:22:24   We had a, we had like a 30 episode run.

00:22:27   He and I started in 2011.

00:22:29   Yeah.

00:22:30   2007, I believe like August or something like that.

00:22:33   So yeah, I I'll take some credit for making podcasting a thing.

00:22:37   I don't know.

00:22:37   Thank you.

00:22:38   Thank you, John, for everything you've done for all, as they like to say to the

00:22:41   vets on Shark Tank, thank you for your service.

00:22:43   I appreciate everything you've done for us, but markdown is still the best thing.

00:22:46   All right.

00:22:47   Let's have some fun here and do a sponsor break.

00:22:48   This is going to be, this is gonna be a lot of fun.

00:22:50   You can hear it right now.

00:22:51   There's music going on on the talk show.

00:22:54   Whoa, where'd that come from?

00:22:56   What is that?

00:22:57   If you make video content for a living or do podcasts, you know, the feeling when

00:23:04   the feel of your video isn't just right.

00:23:07   You can't figure out why maybe a joke doesn't land like it should, or the

00:23:09   product demo feels boring.

00:23:11   What can you do to find the perfect piece of music to glue it all together?

00:23:15   The right music can make people laugh.

00:23:17   It can get them excited.

00:23:18   It could bring them to tears, but that perfect music can be hard to find.

00:23:22   And it's really hard to edit when your client wants changes.

00:23:25   What do you do when they say the pacing feels wrong or the drums are distracting?

00:23:28   You can't go back and just take the drums out of the stock music.

00:23:31   You have to go back to the stock music site and find all together different music

00:23:35   that has the same feel as the other one, but with, you know, without the drums or

00:23:39   something like that.

00:23:40   What a pain you deserve better than this.

00:23:42   Let me tell you about my pal, Alex Weinstein.

00:23:45   Alex is one of tech's most prominent composers.

00:23:49   Here's why his music feels different.

00:23:52   It is handmade and organic with unique textures and rhythms.

00:23:55   It doesn't sound like all the other music you hear out there.

00:23:58   It doesn't sound like stock music.

00:23:59   He has a way of pairing music to your video to make it feel like they were meant

00:24:04   to be together.

00:24:04   It's an art, really.

00:24:06   It really is art.

00:24:07   It's music.

00:24:07   It's a craft that he's been perfecting for over a decade.

00:24:10   Now what you can do, you can just license an existing song or commission an

00:24:16   original score, but every piece of music you get from Alex Weinstein can be fully

00:24:20   customized to satisfy even the pickiest clients.

00:24:23   It's like getting a custom soundtrack at any budget, but don't just take my word

00:24:28   for it.

00:24:28   Alex's music has been used by companies you know, like Apple, Google, Intel, HP,

00:24:35   Slack, Panic.

00:24:36   Now we're talking about the big boys when we get to Panic and hundreds of other

00:24:40   companies.

00:24:40   Now you might be familiar too with a little company called Sandwich.

00:24:44   If you've watched videos from Sandwich, you have almost certainly heard music from

00:24:50   Alex Weinstein.

00:24:51   So let me toss it right here to my pal Adam Lisagor, Sandwich's founder.

00:24:57   What can I say about Alex Weinstein?

00:24:59   His music is inextricably enmeshed in the Sandwich voice.

00:25:02   12 years ago, a guy tweeted at me, "Hey, Lonely Sandwich, if you ever need music for

00:25:06   any of your awesome videos, I'd love to make music for you."

00:25:09   That was Alex Weinstein.

00:25:11   I answered that tweet and we've been making music together ever since because he

00:25:15   makes music that will always take the shape of our stories and elevate them like a

00:25:19   great actor or a fine wine.

00:25:20   His music isn't like the other music on all those other libraries out there.

00:25:24   It's got something special, so you'd be wise to do like Sandwich and work with Alex

00:25:28   Weinstein to add music to your video that will make it sing like a fine wine and

00:25:33   always be in tune like a fine wine.

00:25:36   Back to you, John Gruber.

00:25:37   I think I still don't know how to pronounce his name.

00:25:40   Ah, I got a mnemonic for you.

00:25:41   No, no, no, Adam.

00:25:43   Oh.

00:25:43   I keep thinking I know and then I keep learning.

00:25:49   There's that music still going, John?

00:25:51   Is it still happening?

00:25:52   I feel like...

00:25:54   All right.

00:25:54   Thanks, Adam.

00:25:55   Thank you.

00:25:55   Now, look, this isn't just for videos and commercials.

00:25:59   Your events, your films, apps.

00:26:01   You could just put music in an app if you need it.

00:26:03   And podcasts deserve great music, too.

00:26:05   Your clients will love this music.

00:26:07   Find the right music for you.

00:26:10   Here's where you go.

00:26:11   AlexWeinstein.com.

00:26:13   That's A-L-E-X W-E-I-N S-T-E-I-N.

00:26:20   AlexWeinstein.com/thetalkshow.

00:26:24   AlexWeinstein.com/

00:26:27   He even got the slug right.

00:26:28   /thetalkshow.

00:26:29   He got the slug exactly right.

00:26:31   Of course he did.

00:26:32   This guy's a pro.

00:26:32   Speaking of Adam, when I took the show on my own 300 some episodes, I

00:26:40   believe there was some talk of having a theme song and Adam was the guest and it

00:26:47   showed up with a theme song from Alex Weinstein.

00:26:51   It was Picking Boogers with John.

00:26:53   Wow.

00:26:54   Yeah.

00:26:54   You remember that?

00:26:55   Unbelievable.

00:26:55   I do remember.

00:26:56   I remember that title.

00:26:57   That sticks in your head.

00:26:58   You're saying this kid's not some Johnny-Come-Lately.

00:27:00   This Alex guy, he's been around for a while.

00:27:02   He knows what he's doing.

00:27:03   Picking Boogers with John Druber.

00:27:05   Well, you know why I had to stop using that?

00:27:07   A big booger came after you?

00:27:08   And well, yeah, that's exactly.

00:27:10   That sort of spoiled it, but yeah, that's exactly what happened.

00:27:13   What happened is it got controversial because there's, they're called, I

00:27:17   forget what they call themselves, but they're like boogerites.

00:27:19   And what they want to do is reduce.

00:27:22   They can, they think it's wrong that there's a stigma against picking your

00:27:26   boogers and,

00:27:27   Oh, I see you, you pre-performed in nasal microaggression.

00:27:31   Right.

00:27:31   And so the gimmick of the theme song, which I would otherwise be using it to

00:27:35   open every episode of the show to this day, is that it's funny.

00:27:39   And that it just is that I'm wasting my time and I'm not very good at this podcast.

00:27:43   And you're sitting here picking boogers with me.

00:27:45   Uh, I get my nose picking is not your costume.

00:27:47   Right.

00:27:48   Well, these pro boogerites were very, and I was like, you know what?

00:27:51   I think you're wrong.

00:27:53   I don't think, I think this song isn't good, honest fun, but I don't need the

00:27:57   hassle.

00:27:58   So I dropped it.

00:27:59   Yeah.

00:28:00   You gotta be careful who you provoke on the internet.

00:28:02   It just, it's just not worth it these days.

00:28:03   No.

00:28:04   Hey, have you played around with the AI image generation?

00:28:09   Tool sets.

00:28:10   Well, that was the whole reason that I agreed to be here is I, this was a fake.

00:28:15   That was a fake question because we know you did great.

00:28:17   It was a really, it was a really low key segue.

00:28:19   You did a really good job.

00:28:20   We haven't prepared for this or anything.

00:28:21   Well, now people are gonna be disappointed.

00:28:22   No, the truth is I'm here to, I'm going to call you out on the carpet, my friend,

00:28:25   because you were in my life when you, you mentioned, uh, I think diffusion B

00:28:30   because you know, Eddie M.

00:28:32   Any bail has been talking about this stuff for a while and I guess you can

00:28:37   describe to your listeners what we're talking about if they don't know.

00:28:39   But these are apps where it used to be services, I guess, hooked up to

00:28:44   supercomputers and now you can get an app on your Mac where you enter in text

00:28:50   and something happens somewhere in the cloud, I guess, and it makes weird AI

00:28:55   things based on your text prompts.

00:28:57   And boy, this is all happening really fast.

00:28:59   It's evolving really fast, but God damn you.

00:29:02   I download that stupid app and like, it's all I could do for, well, I won't

00:29:08   say for like weeks or something, but there were times where as a, as someone

00:29:13   with ADHD, it was like really difficult to pull myself away, especially once I

00:29:18   started going down the rabbit hole with Mike Pence, cause that's like a whole

00:29:21   thing, but like, yes, I've been playing with these and it's all your fault.

00:29:24   So the ones that I'm aware of, I don't know.

00:29:29   There's, it's, there's probably going to be more of them than you can shake a

00:29:32   stick at soon.

00:29:33   The one that first came to prominence was Dolly, which I guess, I don't know what

00:29:38   it had, like, I didn't have, like, I was on like some kind of waiting list.

00:29:41   Yeah.

00:29:41   I know.

00:29:42   Yeah.

00:29:42   And I am not at all skeptical about it.

00:29:44   And I kind of know myself well enough to know that I would actually find it

00:29:48   fascinating.

00:29:49   And so I did get on the list for Dolly, but I never tried to pull any strings

00:29:54   like, Hey, I'm the daring fireball guy.

00:29:56   Can you let me jump the line?

00:29:57   Or, you know, I, you know, and I knew people who were in, and I know people who

00:30:01   know people over in the Silicon Valley and I probably could have, but I avoided

00:30:06   that because I thought there goes, who knows when I'll come out of the rabbit

00:30:09   hole.

00:30:10   And so I succeeded.

00:30:12   Be careful what you ask for.

00:30:13   I successfully avoided it.

00:30:15   And then, but then these other ones started coming out.

00:30:17   Like there's a million, the one you, the one you linked to, I remember

00:30:20   specifically where he was, I think it was diffusion B, which is the one that I've

00:30:23   been using.

00:30:24   It's an AI diffusion B is an offshoot of stable diffusion.

00:30:29   I will put all these in the show notes.

00:30:30   Stable diffusion is the parent project, but the difference with like Dolly is

00:30:36   their thing on their servers and you've got to be in on a list.

00:30:39   And now they're going to open it up as a paid service and you'll open it up an

00:30:43   account and you will only get so many of these queries per, you know, the, it seems

00:30:48   very reasonable.

00:30:48   It seems actually like it could be for the time being a good business where they're

00:30:52   charging a reasonable rate for a reasonable number of queries and you get like

00:30:57   lower resolution ones.

00:30:58   All that.

00:31:00   I really love this.

00:31:01   Can I get it in higher resolution?

00:31:02   And then you give them a couple bucks and they spit it out.

00:31:04   There's another one called mid journey, which is amazing.

00:31:07   I'll talk about that in a bit, but then that's also their thing.

00:31:10   They own the software, they own the AI models and they all have all these groups

00:31:15   done their own.

00:31:16   And I'm just, I'm going to speak freely and just say to you, I don't know anything

00:31:20   about any of this.

00:31:21   And so I do they, did they each do their own like training on images separately?

00:31:27   It's not like there's one corpus you get from AWS and like, just go at it.

00:31:30   Right.

00:31:30   I'm yeah, definitely.

00:31:32   No, definitely.

00:31:32   It's all on their own.

00:31:33   I'm I'm, I'm speaking a little bit out of my ass here, but my understanding is that

00:31:38   there, it has been a tremendous area of interest in AI overall for decades.

00:31:48   It's been the sort of idea that which part has been the interest?

00:31:52   Well, the idea of trying to tell an artificial intelligence like, well, there's

00:32:00   the famous Turing test, right?

00:32:01   Which is just Alan Turing's proposal for artificial intelligence would be that you

00:32:07   could have a chat with it, like at a computer terminal and all you see is text

00:32:14   and you can type whatever you want and you're, it's a one-on-one chat, me and

00:32:19   quote unquote Merlin and all I see, I can ask you anything I want and then you can

00:32:24   answer with anything you want.

00:32:25   And then me, the human being I have five minutes, 10 minutes, whatever.

00:32:30   After that, I have to say, do I think that was a human on the other end or was it a

00:32:35   computer program?

00:32:36   And if I can't tell, then that's, that's past the Turing test and we all encounter.

00:32:41   I mean, to some degree or another, we've all encountered those things.

00:32:45   We all get them.

00:32:45   Like if you try to exchange a package with Amazon or something like that, right?

00:32:49   You immediately go to some chat and it's, this clearly is a computer.

00:32:53   Sometimes you get phone calls from these things.

00:32:56   But I mean, isn't a CAPTCHA, is CAPTCHA like things?

00:32:58   Aren't those sort of related?

00:32:59   I think that they're, I think they're training.

00:33:02   We're asking you, oh yeah, right, right.

00:33:05   We're, it ends up being training.

00:33:07   Boy, if we're getting a real good idea of what is and isn't a crosswalk at this

00:33:10   point, but isn't that part of the idea is that the, forgive me if I'm being dim, that

00:33:15   ends up getting used perhaps to scan books or to do, you know, whatever AI learning,

00:33:20   but, but it isn't the whole idea of a CAPTCHA to say, to ask you to do something that's

00:33:24   difficult for an automated machine to do.

00:33:27   So like identify that this is this and this is that and those kinds of things.

00:33:30   It's just, ironically or expectedly, I guess it's just, as we've come a long way

00:33:35   from here's some squiggly letters on a weird background because those got solvable

00:33:40   but yeah, the whole evolution of that stuff is fascinating too.

00:33:43   But that's what you're talking about, right?

00:33:45   Is like, yeah, same idea is like, do you show me, show me that you can do something

00:33:49   that's diff and I think I hope I'm using the right words here.

00:33:51   Show me that you can do something.

00:33:53   It's difficult for a machine to do automatically like machines can do stuff as

00:33:58   long as you've given them the orders, but to pick out of a grid of nine things and

00:34:01   say, which one of them has a bridge.

00:34:03   And I got a lot of bones to pick out.

00:34:05   What's a bridge versus what's like, you know, an overpass or something.

00:34:08   But I think I usually know, oh, here's the three that look like they have, you know,

00:34:11   what you want.

00:34:12   Well, but you know, most computer programming that we know is even if you know, you

00:34:18   or anybody else listening has, doesn't consider yourself a computer programmer at

00:34:21   all, or if you took a computer programming course in high school and just found it,

00:34:25   just didn't work with your brain.

00:34:27   I get it.

00:34:28   We all have subjects where our brains just don't work with it.

00:34:30   But even as a lay person, you kind of understand that it's all of programming is

00:34:34   really just a traditional programming is just a series of if then else, right?

00:34:40   Like, so you could write like a simple markdown parser.

00:34:43   And if it only supported italics, you would just say, what's the next character?

00:34:47   Is it an asterisk?

00:34:48   No.

00:34:49   Okay, just pass it through.

00:34:50   Is it an asterisk?

00:34:51   Yes.

00:34:52   Okay.

00:34:52   Start a run of italics and then keep going until you get another asterisk and then you

00:34:57   end, you know, say, okay, now the italics are over.

00:34:59   Go back to plain text.

00:35:01   Give me another character.

00:35:02   What is it?

00:35:03   Give me another character.

00:35:04   And that's how most traditional computer programs work at a very simplistic level.

00:35:09   They're just a bunch of if then else.

00:35:11   You can't use that sort style of programming to get a full, even a chat bot, right?

00:35:19   You can't, there's no way that you can just have them.

00:35:22   I mean, even just to make them, I mean, like not to be silly about it, but a thing

00:35:26   that I run into with almost every flavor of markdown is that at some point I started

00:35:32   when you got like a phrase between em dashes, I stopped.

00:35:35   I have some point of thought.

00:35:36   I don't know if it's grammatically correct, but I prefer to not have spaces before

00:35:40   or after em dash.

00:35:41   But if I have an italicized word, which in this case would be, you know, an underscore

00:35:46   or a asterisk on either side, then it kind of botches because it wants the em dash.

00:35:51   Yeah, it wants the space.

00:35:52   It's greedy.

00:35:53   It's greedy for that em dash.

00:35:55   You could solve that though without artificial intelligence, but I think Brett

00:35:58   Terpsich does stuff like that in his sleep.

00:36:00   He figures it all out.

00:36:00   So another one is a very common one that we know that all the big companies, the

00:36:05   biggest companies that the world has ever seen are all working on is trying to get

00:36:09   robots to drive cars, right?

00:36:13   And you can see how a series of if else type statements isn't going to do it right.

00:36:20   The it's it.

00:36:21   You need some sort of different way.

00:36:23   I use a phrase from the eighties and nineties fuzzy logic.

00:36:26   Mm hmm.

00:36:27   Yeah, it is.

00:36:28   Isn't that right?

00:36:29   Isn't that part of it?

00:36:30   Like, right.

00:36:30   We're that lat.

00:36:32   Okay.

00:36:33   You don't say last mile, but it's almost like, you know, the year of Linux on the desktop.

00:36:36   It always feels like we're about three months away from vehicles, but I, I think it felt like we were closer to that in some ways three to five years ago than right now, because as we, as that last mile ends up being a lot longer than a mile, exactly what you're describing the training that is involved in getting.

00:36:53   You know what it reminds me of?

00:36:54   Okay.

00:36:54   So this is really going to sound random, but I had a friend whose dad was a cop and was the head of the canine division in our Sheriff's department where I was from.

00:37:03   And anyway, long story short, he would say he loved Rottweilers and they had a Rottweiler as a pet and Rottweilers are so interesting.

00:37:09   And he, I don't know, he is, he's a cop and he liked dogs.

00:37:12   So take it with a grain of salt.

00:37:13   But one thing he would always say is like Rottweilers are dogs.

00:37:16   They are pack animals.

00:37:17   And if they think that you're not being a good leader, they will like you will, they will run the house, not because they're mean or because they're trying to annex the Sudetenland, but just because like they're not aggressive.

00:37:29   It's just, that's how their brain works is that they need that.

00:37:32   And the thing he would say, another thing he said that it really stuck with me that I still think about was like, you tell, so you can tell so much about a given, in this case, Sheriff's deputy based on how their dog acts.

00:37:42   That like, if it's not a very strong person with good character and who's got clear lines in their life, then that ends up being reflected in the dog.

00:37:50   But the thing he said to me that I still think about the most was something along the lines of the thing is a Rottweiler is like, it's almost like a Marine.

00:37:58   Like it's had the training and the background to know exactly how to follow orders flawlessly.

00:38:03   But he says like in the best ones, they also, they somehow seem to know when to rescind that order and do something else instead.

00:38:12   That to me is what separates AI from what you're describing here is if then things, because you could have an endless array and nested ways of doing all the defense stuff said the non-programmer, but like the idea of an AI, taking an AI and saying, Hey, here's something we're trying to accomplish.

00:38:27   And here's the basic rules of the road.

00:38:28   Like if you read like in the chess cheating thing, if you read about the ways that there are chess computers now that will do behaviors that are absolutely illogical, every human, and yet they win the games.

00:38:40   They are, it's the ultimate way of thinking outside the box.

00:38:42   And you get into this Kobayashi Maru thing where you start saying like, Oh, well, Hey, you're, you can't beat the test by cheating on the test.

00:38:49   And it's like, well, okay, well, you didn't put that in the instructions.

00:38:51   And so then you iterate that, right?

00:38:53   That's kind of the general idea, right?

00:38:55   I think so.

00:38:56   Did you, uh, eventually you get, Oh, you get a Rottweiler.

00:38:59   It looks like Mike Pence.

00:39:00   I, the thing that, where I get in over my head is with these, with the training that they do.

00:39:07   So they take the way that modern machine learning works and there is, and again, I'm a little over my head.

00:39:13   And again, I have a degree in computer science and I took, I think I took two courses in artificial intelligence back at old Drexel university.

00:39:20   I do believe there actually is a meaningful difference between AI is still the sort of broader parent umbrella for all of this.

00:39:28   And machine learning is not just, Oh, let's just give it a new name after 20 years to make it feel fresh.

00:39:35   It's not just a portmanteau.

00:39:36   It's it is a specific way of doing AI where you throw a gazillion examples into a corpus and train the model so that, and so you know that these are all images of.

00:39:52   Dogs, a hundred, a million images of dogs.

00:39:57   And you know that it's a million photos of dogs and you also have a million photos of cats and you throw them at the model and say, these are cats.

00:40:06   These are dogs.

00:40:07   Here's two.

00:40:07   Or you grade the test and say, you correctly got this one, right?

00:40:11   This was a dog.

00:40:12   This wasn't a dog, hot dog.

00:40:13   And then after the model has been trained, then you start throwing new pictures at it and say, is this a dog or is this a cat?

00:40:21   And you grade it.

00:40:22   And when the model, and as you correct, the model is like, Oh, okay.

00:40:29   Oh.

00:40:30   And then all of a sudden the model is actually very uncannily good at even identifying.

00:40:35   Isn't the killer part of this, the amazing and befuddling, the part that breaks my brain is the idea that it figures out what that route needs to be to get to where you're happy with the results.

00:40:46   That it's the, that's the machine learning part though, right?

00:40:49   Is it's not that we're there telling it what to do.

00:40:51   It's that we're saying more like this, less like this.

00:40:54   And like the chess robot that figures out these quackity ways to win at chess, it's thinking quote unquote in a way entirely different from the way that we would think.

00:41:02   Right.

00:41:03   And it's it's using heuristics to determine what's a dog and what's a cat that aren't the way we do it at all.

00:41:08   They don't, they're the logic inside the AI model doesn't work the way the logic works in our brains.

00:41:15   And we can't really, you can't really see it, right?

00:41:17   I mean, yeah.

00:41:18   And that's part of the, it's a little scary, you know, and I'm, I, you know, and I know that there are, you're in my entire lifetimes ever since 2001 in 1968.

00:41:30   There's an entire field of science fiction movies about AI systems gone wrong, right?

00:41:35   I mean, it's it, you know, you probably count on one hand, the number of science fiction movies,

00:41:40   like one of those Boston Dynamics projects where the robot rips the doorknob off or something like that, where it's like, well, you told me to open the door.

00:41:46   Exactly.

00:41:48   The company should be put out.

00:41:49   But it is a little scary, though, that even the machine learning experts who make these models that can do ever more amazing things really don't know how they work inside.

00:42:00   You know what I mean?

00:42:00   Like the internal logic of the system is impenetrable because if it were something that you could then it would spit out like a traditional computer program and you could read, then we'd be like, oh, I see.

00:42:13   Oh, we just missed this obvious thing.

00:42:15   No.

00:42:16   It's like the logic would end up, it's more than spaghetti code.

00:42:19   It is.

00:42:20   It's only understandable to a computer.

00:42:22   But where they've gone and this to me, it is a leap.

00:42:26   It is truly fascinating.

00:42:27   And I'm not surprised that it's possible yet, but it still is amazing to see is it.

00:42:33   And it feels like pulling the idea inside out.

00:42:38   So me throwing a picture of a surprisingly dog like looking cat.

00:42:45   It is a cat, but damn if that cat doesn't look a little bit like sort of like a dog and throwing it at a computer and the computer says, Nope, that's a cat.

00:42:53   And it's like, ah, that's pretty good, but I'm not surprised.

00:42:56   But when you can say to a computer, draw me a picture of a cat that looks like Mike Pence, get off my hard drive in this, in the style of Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks.

00:43:07   And all of a sudden, all of a sudden it looks like Leonardo da Vinci was inventing a feline version of Mike Pence.

00:43:15   And it looks like what you asked for.

00:43:17   That's on that is mind blowing.

00:43:20   It is endlessly fascinating.

00:43:21   But you can see, though, why this has been an area of intense research for AI researchers for decades, because as a proof of this is a quote unquote intelligent system, giving a plain language text string.

00:43:35   Show me a picture of Donald Trump looking scared and alone in a large office with a can of Diet Coke in the style of Rembrandt.

00:43:45   Reminds me, yours reminds me of Edward Hopper a little bit.

00:43:47   The kind that looks like Nighthawks at the diner.

00:43:50   All right.

00:43:50   I'll try to remember to put some of these in the album art for the episode here so people can look down at your phone as you're listening to us and see some of these images that you and I have generated.

00:44:01   This one that I have of Trump with a can of soda looking scared and alone is unbelievable.

00:44:06   But you can just give a simple text string, not like some kind of, oh, you've written a little computer program and you need to know this crazy, this crazy, not crazy, but a complicated, precise, like learning to write SQL database queries code to do it.

00:44:25   No, it's like Google search, right?

00:44:27   Where you just you don't need to know a query language.

00:44:29   You just type a string and you wait and then you get output.

00:44:34   And then, and like with a Google image search, which the more time I spend with these things, I'm more amazed I am that Google has ever worked at all.

00:44:41   It's so incredible.

00:44:41   But then you can go through and do your own version of a yes, no, yes, no.

00:44:45   Like this is, this is closer to what I want.

00:44:47   Just in the sense of, you know, you, we, we rarely, it just hit the, I feel lucky button anymore.

00:44:52   Most of us are like kind of browsing around, but just to really concentrate on what you're saying there for a second.

00:44:57   The whole idea of taking us like these, a stroke, a bunch of words that are meaningful and ending up with some kind of an image.

00:45:05   That's the fun is you have no idea.

00:45:10   Even if you, I, I've gotten better based on looking at other people's results.

00:45:14   I've gotten better at realizing what kind of cues tend to be more or less effective, but like you really don't know what you're going to get.

00:45:22   And that's why I went to part two.

00:45:24   I wanted to say, first of all, screw you for getting me onto this garbage, but also it's so much like gambling.

00:45:29   Hold that thought.

00:45:31   Hold, hold that thought.

00:45:33   But you don't, but like the point is like the, if you haven't played with this and that's fine, probably have like stuff to do.

00:45:38   But like if you've done this, it's bananas, the results that you come up with and it's, you can kind of go like, oh yeah, I can, I guess I kind of see how you got that.

00:45:46   But part of the reason I love it so much is I have no idea what's going to come up, what it will look like.

00:45:53   And could I even say, was this one good?

00:45:55   Was this one better than that one?

00:45:57   I mean, I guess I could try and give it a grade in terms of, but really it's basically like what I expected.

00:46:02   And it's so interesting to see what it comes up with for these incredibly crazy things.

00:46:08   It's really addictive.

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00:47:53   I like that they send me things that I would never choose or make myself.

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00:47:59   But to me, that's part of the fun is like, these are dishes, sometimes they're the ingredients I go, but like, I like the fact that's nothing I would have like clipped out of a magazine myself.

00:48:08   That's very true.

00:48:09   I feel, yeah, I feel impoverished by choice sometimes.

00:48:12   And I really like being given something that I know is going to be good.

00:48:15   And but it's a little more diverse and outside what I would make for myself.

00:48:18   I'll tell you what, when my wife asked me, what do you want?

00:48:21   What do you want for dinner?

00:48:22   What do you want for dinner tonight?

00:48:23   Tomorrow?

00:48:23   I'm so unimaginative.

00:48:25   I just think back to the last four meals I've had and I'll just say one of them again.

00:48:29   And which is a really dumb way to do it and repetitious.

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00:49:17   I mean, that's just unbelievable.

00:49:18   65.

00:49:18   I mean, you'd be a fool not to try it.

00:49:20   You said it feels like gambling.

00:49:23   I got to say that there is something to that.

00:49:26   Like, and I'm not really like a slots player.

00:49:28   I I've done it, but I can see how people get hooked on the slot machine.

00:49:31   Well, I'm just saying, well, I mentioned it.

00:49:33   Like I mentioned actually to other friends, I hadn't mentioned it to you, but you're a degenerate gambler.

00:49:37   Oh yeah.

00:49:38   I go to places like Las Vegas and buy nail clippers and things like that.

00:49:40   But like it's, there is this funny thing that, so I'm sitting here with this studio Mac, which is crazy powerful.

00:49:45   And when I'm doing this at home on the laptop, it's not quite as fun, but when I'm, even if I'm doing it at the office with everything else quit.

00:49:51   Cause this thing is really hungry for Ram and I guess processing, but what is it?

00:49:56   But it goes, it's just enough time for me to go, Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy.

00:49:59   And watching the progress bar.

00:50:01   And it's exactly like waiting for the cherries to drop and you don't know what's going to happen.

00:50:05   And you're excited.

00:50:06   It's a combination of that.

00:50:07   And then something more salient for me is the whole, like, Oh mom, can I just stay for one more music video?

00:50:14   Because it might be standing delivered by Adam and the ads or like whatever, like my favorite video might come on and you went one more, one more, one more.

00:50:21   And like, I have to peel myself away from this app because I get so, and then I'll go like, Oh, brainstorm.

00:50:28   I should do this instead.

00:50:29   I should change the wording to be this way.

00:50:32   And unlike a slot machine, well, you have a little more agency in that you're really working for the machine.

00:50:39   You're trying to figure out what to say to get what you think you want.

00:50:42   And I find that process.

00:50:44   Terribly engrossing.

00:50:46   So stable diffusion is one of these systems, but as opposed to the other ones, you don't just go to them and they keep it all.

00:50:54   It's an open source thing and an open source corpus, and you can download it all and you can run.

00:50:59   It's the first one of these dinguses, these AI image generation things that you can run on your own computer as opposed to running on their server farm somewhere.

00:51:11   And apparently it was, so kudos to the project for making it, shipping it, putting it on GitHub and you can download it.

00:51:20   But apparently, and it's getting just what it's worth.

00:51:22   This one is getting upgrades and improvements at quite a pace.

00:51:26   Well, yeah, I noticed after a couple of weeks away from it that the results are already better, but.

00:51:31   Well, they've added you've got history now, which is huge.

00:51:34   And the other one is now you can do image to image.

00:51:36   Well, that's just been a.

00:51:37   Now that's diffusion B.

00:51:38   So the price, the parent project is stable diffusion and diffusion B.

00:51:44   Like the insect is a project by Devan Gupta, who took stable diffusion, took the open source license and packaged it up into just a regular simple Mac app.

00:51:58   And now it's very big.

00:51:59   It's like two gigabytes.

00:52:00   I think it needs to download three last time.

00:52:03   So I upgraded yesterday and it was down like the model or whatever it's called was like three gigs.

00:52:07   Yeah, it's a lot.

00:52:08   It is a lot, but as a user in terms of the complexity, drag and drop, you just drag it in command shift age.

00:52:14   Just put it in there.

00:52:15   Right.

00:52:15   It's no different than like the complexity of installing BB edit, right?

00:52:20   You just download it and you drag it to your applications folder.

00:52:23   And it's the only difference is it's got three gigabytes of data to download.

00:52:27   And then all of a sudden you've got a regular nice looking Mac app with a text field where you just type whatever it is you'd like to get a picture of and you hit return.

00:52:39   And that this is the part that to me is a real interesting and also a real throwback to the early days of me using personal computers, which is in the early days of using personal computers.

00:52:53   The most fun stuff was the cutting edge stuff, and it always took forever, right?

00:53:01   Copying a floppy.

00:53:02   Just going to a BBS to download images.

00:53:05   Right.

00:53:05   It had a very similar feeling of like, well, this has been described to me in the following way.

00:53:11   And then when you wait for the tucka tucka tucka tucka tucka 9600 baud modem to like draw it for you.

00:53:16   Well, I remember it like the early 90s, like when I was at college and it was still a novelty that the Macs now had full color displays, right?

00:53:27   It's like, you know, this is the Mac was the black and white computer.

00:53:30   And now they had color displays and I had a Mac LC with a color display.

00:53:34   And then there this new image format came out called JPEG and JPEG didn't look like a gif file or at all.

00:53:43   You got real photos.

00:53:45   They looked like photographs and you could just download them and open them.

00:53:50   But even once you had it downloaded, you could watch a JPEG sort of come into your screen from the top left to the bottom right as it would fill it.

00:54:00   And remember, there's the progressive JPEG.

00:54:02   Progressive JPEG.

00:54:03   You can move forward.

00:54:05   So the younger made this file larger by putting crappy versions that'll come in first.

00:54:10   But so you got like you got like the version that you haven't put your glasses on yet first and then as just so it would fill the screen and then the higher res version would fill in.

00:54:21   Progressive JPEG was actually pretty clever because it did make had to make the file slightly bigger, but only slightly.

00:54:28   Yeah, but it felt it felt faster.

00:54:30   It felt faster because you got something that filled the full space that the image would eventually fill out roughly just a rough blurry version of it.

00:54:39   And then the rest would come in.

00:54:40   But just rendering a JPEG would take a while.

00:54:43   Do you remember when Quicktime first came out?

00:54:45   Sure do.

00:54:46   And they were like the standard size of...

00:54:50   Postage stamp is the phrase we, I think, still use to talk about.

00:54:54   They I think that they were honestly roughly the size of the graphic ads on Daring Fireball.

00:54:59   Right?

00:55:00   Those might be about the size of a 2009 ad from the deck.

00:55:05   Yeah, yeah.

00:55:05   Which is still the size that I use.

00:55:07   It's really small little rectangle.

00:55:09   And they were they weren't even 24 frames per second.

00:55:11   They'd be like, I don't know, 12 frames per second or 18 frames per second.

00:55:15   And with lots of compression.

00:55:16   You put it on any shared account that at least I had access to your bandwidth would be gone.

00:55:21   Even with the paucity of visitors that I had, your bandwidth would be gone in a day.

00:55:25   But son of a bitch, we were playing video on our Macs.

00:55:29   And I know somewhere out there, there's our friends who formerly used Amigas are like shaking their fists and they want to yell,

00:55:37   "We are videos years ahead of you."

00:55:39   All right.

00:55:40   Yeah, that was five years before that I could make videos.

00:55:42   It was very cool.

00:55:43   Amigas were very cool and they were way ahead of the time and video.

00:55:47   So hats off to you.

00:55:48   Was it Toaster?

00:55:48   Was that the thing you used?

00:55:50   Yeah, that was the thing that was that would let you actually edit video at a ridiculously early time compared to the Mac and Windows.

00:55:59   They were ahead of their time.

00:56:00   But anyway, once you could play video on your computer, it was amazing.

00:56:04   And like you said, but even before you could play this tiny postage stamp, low frame rate, high compression, low color palette video, you had to download it.

00:56:14   And it took forever.

00:56:15   And all sorts of things you did would take a long time.

00:56:20   But you'd be so excited because you had just gotten the endorphin, dopamine.

00:56:24   I don't know what it is.

00:56:25   Oh, no, you would get that.

00:56:26   You would get the surge.

00:56:28   And like if it was actually if it was the thing you wanted and it looked good and you were it was it was magic.

00:56:32   Right.

00:56:33   And, you know, another one was like when music file sharing first became a thing.

00:56:38   I and this was one that I remember having so much fun with Amy.

00:56:43   We had like a little home office where she had a desk and I had a desk and I think we were most of our apartments back then.

00:56:49   What was your connection like at that point?

00:56:51   Like a DSL or something?

00:56:56   I think we probably had DSL by the time we Napster and those type of things.

00:57:01   I was still on dial up when I got DSL when I moved here in ninety nine.

00:57:06   But everything I had before that was a haze modem.

00:57:08   Yeah, we also had a thing.

00:57:09   We had a very cool setup for a while.

00:57:11   There was a guy named Peter Sishel as S I C H E L who had a thing for the Mac that would let one Mac be connected to the modem, but would share the connection with over the local network with others.

00:57:25   And it Amy could get on her computer.

00:57:28   I forget what it was called, but I'll try to remember to put it in the show notes, but it was a wonderful piece of shareware.

00:57:33   But it was like we could share one modem connection and she could initiate it on her own from her iMac so that I didn't have she didn't have to go to my computer if I wasn't around.

00:57:43   As long as you remember to throw your TCP IP perhaps occasionally.

00:57:46   But it was so and that's what these the way that everything was so slow back.

00:57:51   Remember when you first got Photoshop and at this point just a few years later, all of a sudden it wasn't a big deal to open a photograph in full color on your Mac.

00:57:59   All of a sudden that happened fast.

00:58:00   But like doing so, I still remember when like Adobe would have like the picture of the like kind of Geisha looking woman.

00:58:07   And like when I first got onto, I think was Illustrator three was so confusing in some way.

00:58:12   It was.

00:58:12   I don't want to say was illustrated three, but one of the there was an illustrator circa ninety two ninety three, something like around that time where you could have it in two modes where it was almost like.

00:58:21   What we think of now is wireframe.

00:58:22   Oh yeah, the best bezier curves or whatever.

00:58:25   And then when you wanted to see what it's actually going to look like, even let's just say like John, am I exaggerating if you want to see how your gradient turned out, like go get a coffee.

00:58:34   Yeah, come back.

00:58:35   Oh, absolutely right.

00:58:36   Right.

00:58:37   And it would you could just watch it.

00:58:39   It would render it as it went, but it would just be like like a phantom.

00:58:43   Hand just painting it on the screen like a very fast for a painter, but also women wore skirts and the movies were nickel.

00:58:51   But yes, you would there would be steps.

00:58:53   You'd go from wireframe to full output and there would be steps where you could go take a bathroom break or something like that.

00:59:01   All sorts of stuff took lots of time.

00:59:03   I remember when you'd print a complex page layout from Quark Express, just translating it all to postscript and sending it over to my image writer.

00:59:11   Like doing draft versus good.

00:59:14   Oh, yes.

00:59:15   Oh, my God.

00:59:15   Finally, I would always print out in draft and it would be all jaggy because I was usually using New York and they would of course will look amazing once I did it on the laser printer.

00:59:23   But yes, yes, absolutely.

00:59:26   There were so many things like this that does it make you feel a little nostalgic.

00:59:31   Absolutely.

00:59:31   Got to wait a second to see the cool thing.

00:59:33   Well, like no more than a second, though, like a minute or 30 seconds, I don't know.

00:59:37   And then you'd realize now and it's the exact same feel to me where you're like, oh, it's the same thing with like Napster where you're looking and we would just play the game like, oh, what about so and so?

00:59:49   There's an out there's music we haven't heard since we were in the mid 80s.

00:59:52   Let's see if we can find that.

00:59:53   And then you find somebody some what was the term?

00:59:56   Was it node?

00:59:57   But you'd find somebody be like, oh, my God, this person has the same music taste I do.

01:00:01   And they have all these obscure records.

01:00:03   Yeah, they've got more of it or they digitized their LPs.

01:00:06   Right.

01:00:07   Because there was only so many, I guess what we call like maybe seeds today.

01:00:10   Yeah, like you would go real slow.

01:00:12   And if they decided to use the phone, done.

01:00:14   They just disappear.

01:00:15   But these AI general image and then you realize you type slightly the wrong string or something and you're like, that's not that I thought that would get me something in the style of Norman Rockwell.

01:00:26   But it's like, oh, I see you instead of saying style of Norman Rockwell, you say illustrated by Norman Rockwell.

01:00:33   And you all of a sudden it looks like a Norman Rockwell.

01:00:35   I don't you know, I might be no, no, no, I it does.

01:00:38   Well, it's again, it's difficult to know we don't have a I don't have a baseline.

01:00:43   So I don't have a way of saying if I just enter in Mike Pence and if it's not clear, I'm obsessed with the way Mike Pence looks in a generated art.

01:00:49   I'm utterly obsessed with it because he's a very comical character to me.

01:00:52   And it's funny to see him with three breasts and four arms.

01:00:55   But but but yeah, yeah, changing the order of things changing that I discovered this when I went to another one of those sites.

01:01:01   Oh, shoot, it's something.

01:01:02   I want to say I'll find it for notes, but there's another one of these places that collects a whole bunch of these.

01:01:08   And I would see what other people were using for prompts and how contrary to how my brain works.

01:01:13   Yet another thing I don't understand sometimes providing it isn't like making a short prompt is going to give you a faster result.

01:01:20   No, that's just counterintuitive.

01:01:23   Right.

01:01:23   In fact, an extremely detailed one that looks like SEO jamming.

01:01:28   Remember, you know, when you try and cram keywords like and make them FFF so nobody could see them like all those cheesy ways of trying to leverage SEO, putting a ton of stuff in there might take just about as long and you may or may not get a better result.

01:01:41   But this is how they get you.

01:01:42   This is how they get you.

01:01:43   Like, it's just like gambling.

01:01:45   But you know, I'm involved because as much as I seem like a monkey hitting a button, the changes in what I choose for the prompt end up having an impact on it, which is exactly the kind of lizard brain crap that totally appeals to me and a lot of other people.

01:02:01   It's absolutely amazing.

01:02:04   I really do.

01:02:04   For those of you, I did link to diffusion be a few weeks ago on during fireball.

01:02:09   I know a bunch of people downloaded it.

01:02:12   It is a very fun way to get started.

01:02:16   It is very satisfying to know it's running on your computer.

01:02:20   It is getting better at a noticeable clip.

01:02:23   I would say it is remarkably better one month later, which is not so it's one of these things that just turns on a part of my brain that starts pumping out.

01:02:32   Give me more.

01:02:34   Totally agree.

01:02:34   The lighting up part is really true.

01:02:43   It's like I would struggle.

01:02:44   Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of friends, so I don't have to explain why I'm spending all the time on this.

01:02:47   But if I were going to try to explain to somebody I and I've said this, I think the Syracuse I was saying, like, part of what I find so appealing about this is how I don't see how bad it is, but how weird it is.

01:02:54   And that there will be something there that my my brain, my cognition can recognize is a certain kind of thing.

01:03:01   But again, if it has an extra arm or something, you get into this weird, almost like at least I don't know how my dreams are.

01:03:08   I don't have dreams that are easy to tell as a story because it can be very visual, but it's very based in feelings.

01:03:13   And of course, nobody likes being told a dream.

01:03:15   But the kind of imagery, the closest thing I could think of, I think I mentioned this to you, is reminds me of the paintings of Francis Bacon.

01:03:21   So if you look up, what's the famous one, Francis Bacon, there's this one called Painting 1946, where it kind of looks like a side of beef dressed as the pope.

01:03:29   Like the stuff that guy was doing for paintings.

01:03:32   It has a lot of that.

01:03:33   I started doing things with Show Me Mike Pence hanging out with Cthulhu, and it did surprisingly well at that.

01:03:39   It's the dreamlike quality of not, I mean, you could enter a string of text.

01:03:43   How can I put this?

01:03:45   You're not going to reverse engineer this from somebody else's art.

01:03:47   Like if you go in and enter a prompt and get 10 results from it, it could be shocking how different and how extremely weird some of them are.

01:03:58   And then the contra that, then one out of every 15, you'll be like, wow, that's really normal looking.

01:04:03   Like I did one, there's a, oh, again, Mike Pence, but I was doing funny bits involving the X-Men.

01:04:09   And there's an artist I like a lot who's on Twitter, whose name is Bill Sienkiewicz.

01:04:13   He did stuff like Daredevil and Electra and stuff.

01:04:16   I did, I'll send this to you.

01:04:17   I did one, blah, blah, blah.

01:04:18   Mike Pence and the X-Men as drawn by Bill Sienkiewicz, something like that.

01:04:22   And I would never say this to the man himself, the great man.

01:04:26   But like it, of all the AI ones I've ever done, it was the most to kind of look like what I expected.

01:04:33   And that became interesting too.

01:04:34   It's not just when Mike Pence and Cthulhu have, have an odd number of arms.

01:04:39   But it is, there is a very interesting dream logic.

01:04:42   And I think this is part of, without getting too far into the, for me anyway, without getting too far into the rat hole of like, what does this mean for the future of art?

01:04:50   There's something weirdly stimulating about it.

01:04:52   Even if this is not going to go create a logo.

01:04:55   They talk about sign ATP.

01:04:57   So I'm skimming some of this from them, but I'm not going to go in there and have it designed my icon app for me.

01:05:02   But there is something thrilling about it that's difficult to describe.

01:05:08   And that's kind of the point.

01:05:09   I heard that you're going, you're seeing stuff that nobody else is ever going to see again.

01:05:13   Here's two I just sent you.

01:05:15   Donald Trump.

01:05:15   These are, I got from Diffusion B.

01:05:17   Don, I think Donald Trump is, is, is for you like Mike Pence.

01:05:21   Yeah, he is.

01:05:21   He's, he's my, he's my, my.

01:05:23   He's your bet noir.

01:05:24   Yeah, my bet noir.

01:05:25   He is.

01:05:26   Cause, uh, Donald Trump, comma graffiti, comma black and white comma style of banks, style of Banksy.

01:05:34   These are two that I got that I just loved.

01:05:36   I especially love the bottom one where it, I'll try to put this one in the,

01:05:42   cause sometimes it will see, you'll see that letters, but we, you can recognize something as, Oh, whatever this is based on had letters in it, but it'll be like, you know, almost like the teachers in a peanuts cartoon.

01:05:51   My one, one, one, you'll see something that looks like this is the closest to like the real letters that I've ever seen.

01:05:56   It looks like the word Trump.

01:05:57   Yeah.

01:05:58   It's and he's got a hat that covers his eyes and a mustache that's over the top of his nose, but you can tell it's him.

01:06:05   Totally.

01:06:06   Yeah.

01:06:07   It is amazing.

01:06:09   Let me squeeze in another sponsor.

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01:06:11   These, I love this company, man.

01:06:12   Oh man.

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01:06:14   Oh, memberful.

01:06:16   I've totally heard of them.

01:06:17   You know, I, I, I, I utilize them on both sides of the table.

01:06:20   Do you?

01:06:21   Yeah.

01:06:21   I was about to spend money on memberful and money comes to me via member.

01:06:26   You monetize your passion with memberships.

01:06:29   That's what I do.

01:06:29   That yes.

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01:07:11   I love giving people money to do stuff I'm bad at.

01:07:14   I love giving money to the niche.

01:07:16   People who, you know, do you know who doesn't need more of my money?

01:07:20   The Disney, right?

01:07:22   That's true.

01:07:23   They've gotten way.

01:07:24   I've gotten enough of my money, you know, they got their nut.

01:07:27   Whoever the hell owns Paramount plus doesn't really need more of my money.

01:07:32   They've gotten a lot of it over the years, but the shine heart week company, my favorite stuff that I consume.

01:07:37   When I look back at my weeks media consumption, my favorite stuff comes from the stuff that I remember and the stuff that I feel was actually nourishing for my mind comes from independent producers.

01:07:49   And even if it's just entertainment, it's still, it feels more, it's what I want to support and the way you can support it is through memberful.

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01:08:08   I'm I subscribed to a bunch of memberful sites.

01:08:11   What do you run?

01:08:11   That's on the memberful there, Merlin.

01:08:13   Some off the dome.

01:08:14   Like we, that's what we use the podcast network where Sir Q said, and I have a show. I use it to, I'm pretty sure of all of these, um, six colors and you know, Jason and Dan and that, that team and Matthew Casanelli.

01:08:28   Um, yeah.

01:08:29   The shortcuts wizard.

01:08:30   Yep.

01:08:31   Shortcuts fell out.

01:08:31   Yeah.

01:08:32   Yeah.

01:08:33   I am a fan and look, I'm not trying to be cute about it.

01:08:36   I'm being dead serious.

01:08:37   Like I don't make my own catch up.

01:08:38   I don't want my own breaks and I don't handle my own money stuff.

01:08:42   Like that's, I'm so happy to have somebody else.

01:08:45   John, these kids today, they're not going to remember that around the time that you and Amy were sucking down all those Tom Petty bootlegs in your, in your room.

01:08:52   Like it, it used to be of this is, this is that reason that terrible man runs the car company now is because it used to be hard to do money things on the internet.

01:09:01   And to this day, I mean, just the stuff you've got to deal with.

01:09:05   Think about when you sell t-shirts somewhere and you got to deal with the vat and all of that.

01:09:09   Having somebody else handle that stuff and then on top of it, have these it's value added services, things that you can do through memberful.

01:09:17   I'm not, I'm not here to stand for memberful.

01:09:19   I'm just saying.

01:09:20   It's a good, it's a good thing.

01:09:21   If you want to, if you want to, if you're making a thing and I don't use the word content, I don't use that word, but if you're making stuff and you want a way to put a cash register on it, check them out.

01:09:30   Where do people go for that?

01:09:31   Go to memberful, M E M B E R F U L.

01:09:35   Just like the name of the company.

01:09:36   You're saying.

01:09:36   Memberful.com/talk show, just slash talk show.

01:09:40   They don't use the, the, but that's okay.

01:09:42   I talked about that with Paul Kefasis last week.

01:09:44   That's okay.

01:09:45   It's all okay.

01:09:45   I, as I get older, I hope, I hope this is true for all of you out there listening.

01:09:50   I don't want to be one of these old people who gets more closed minded as they get old.

01:09:53   I'm getting more.

01:09:54   It makes you appreciate it more when somebody calls you the right thing.

01:09:57   It makes you appreciate it.

01:09:58   Respect.

01:09:59   That's why they carry their groceries home.

01:10:01   Memberful.com/talk show.

01:10:03   Go there today.

01:10:03   Check it out.

01:10:04   Start your thing.

01:10:05   All right, Merlin.

01:10:05   I'm now here's the part of the show where I might, I might be putting our friendship at risk.

01:10:10   Okay.

01:10:11   Friends for a long time.

01:10:12   I want to tell you, I want to, I get the feeling that you're not familiar with mid journey.

01:10:19   Oh, well, no, I'm not.

01:10:21   I, from your, your Apple note here, it sounds like it involves discord and I find discord confusing.

01:10:27   All right, so do I.

01:10:28   I find discord very confusing and cacophony.

01:10:30   By confusing, I mean overwhelming.

01:10:32   I do too.

01:10:32   Oh, get ready to be overwhelmed.

01:10:34   So let me tell you about mid journey.

01:10:35   Mid journey.

01:10:36   Journey.

01:10:37   That's a journey.

01:10:38   Mid journey is an AI image generator and Ben Thompson used it for something and got really interesting output from it.

01:10:47   He told me I should check it out.

01:10:48   Now don't go look now for God's sake.

01:10:50   Now this is where it got confusing to me.

01:10:53   Now they were you lose.

01:10:54   Oh yeah, you'll be gone.

01:10:55   You'll be here.

01:10:56   You'll be gone.

01:10:56   You're I mean, you won't be, you won't be back till it's Christmas.

01:11:00   You'll be lucky if you get your Christmas shopping done.

01:11:01   So you go to mid journey, it's free.

01:11:03   Or it can be free.

01:11:05   You can then pay to get better access, but you can just sign up for free.

01:11:08   But it was very confusing to me because I went there and I said, okay, I would like to Ben says I should try this.

01:11:13   I'm going to try this and you try it and it says, here's your access to discord.

01:11:19   And I was like, well, I didn't want to be on the mid journey discord.

01:11:22   I find discord is very confusing.

01:11:24   How do I just want the mid?

01:11:26   I thought I was just signing up to get access to mid journey and I figured that I would be.

01:11:30   That's a pretty I've run into that a handful of times where to like get in on like to get a beta of something or whatever you do it like through a discord.

01:11:38   Yeah, that's well, it turns out that there is no like mid journey website where you get a credential like a username and password and you type things in their website and then the website gives you images.

01:11:50   No, discord is the interface.

01:11:53   Through which mid journey works.

01:11:56   And so what happens is they just give you access to their discord and you there are these channels in the discord for newbies.

01:12:04   I don't know what they call them, but you're a new user.

01:12:06   You haven't paid for anything and you get into one of these channels and you just start typing like commands and they're relatively simple.

01:12:17   It's a little bit like a command line interface where it's like you say like I'm getting get the syntax wrong, but like using a command line interface.

01:12:24   In the sense of that, there's like attributes like there's verbs and nouns and like flags.

01:12:31   Yeah, well, like it'd be like a new image and then you just type like these other ones new image Donald Trump eating a mouse and then you hit return.

01:12:39   Yeah, and it takes again, it still takes like 30 seconds for your things to come back and it comes back on mid journey with a like a little four square.

01:12:51   1234 with four versions of which might vary greatly of what your prompt was, and then you can pick one of them like, oh, number two.

01:13:01   I like and I forget what the command is, but it might be like M2 and M2 would say take number two and do another revision on that and give you another more like this.

01:13:12   And then when there's one that you really like, there's you just say like, oh, that's the one give me a higher resolution of that one.

01:13:17   And then it gives you a higher resolution of that one. And each one takes I don't maybe 30 seconds.

01:13:23   I here's where it blows your mind. This is where it is absolutely bananas.

01:13:28   And I might this might be the last episode of my podcast where I have my full listenership because some portion of the people out there will I you're going to be if you've never tried to lose them, they're going to disappear into mid journey.

01:13:44   Because while you're doing this, you're in a public discord channel with people from all over the world doing the same thing in your channel.

01:13:52   So as a free user of mid journey, whatever it is you're making is not private. It is on their channel. You can pay them and subscribe.

01:14:02   It's like you pay like 200 bucks a year. I don't know something like that. And then you can get a private access to mid journey where you can type things that nobody else can see in their discord.

01:14:11   But while you're learning it, you're in a public channel. And it's not just one channel with all 40 million people using it around the world.

01:14:19   They somehow automatically keep only I don't know, a couple dozen people at a time in one of these channels.

01:14:26   But you see what they're making and what they're typing. And these are people who are all way better at it than me.

01:14:34   Right? Because I've never been here before.

01:14:37   These they know, like they know, like the incantations.

01:14:40   They know the incantations and you can see their incantations as they type them.

01:14:45   And then so while you're waiting 30 seconds for your incantation to give you your results, you're watching theirs flow by in the channel.

01:14:56   Oh my gosh, and discord is it turns out to be wonderful for this.

01:15:00   It's the first it's discord went from a thing that I never wanted to use and never enjoyed.

01:15:05   God bless all the other sites out there that have discords.

01:15:07   I know some people like it, but I find it my brain is too simple and too easily confused.

01:15:12   It's an intuitive place to do something.

01:15:14   But while you're waiting for your results, you see these amazing results from other people and occasionally unamazing results.

01:15:20   But you also got to see and you can scroll back to see what they typed to make it.

01:15:25   And these results are amazing.

01:15:28   And then your results come in and you're, oh, that's kind of neat.

01:15:31   Give me more on number three or do number three, but give me four more, four, four different takes on number three.

01:15:38   And now you're waiting again.

01:15:39   And while you're waiting, all these other results are streaming by.

01:15:44   And then next, next thing you know, it's tomorrow and your wife, your wife is like, where were you?

01:15:50   And you're like, ah, but if this were gambling, I'm doing, um, whatever slots and you're playing craps like you're playing a community game.

01:15:59   Let me give you a better analogy.

01:16:00   You know, I love the gambling, but I'm going to give you a better analogy.

01:16:03   To me, it is like discovering coin op video game arcades when we were young, where it is because it's there's the money is incidental, right?

01:16:17   And it's like gambling.

01:16:18   You can suddenly lose your money, whereas in an arcade, you kind of spend your quarters at an even clip.

01:16:22   But you let unless you're playing the Star Wars sit down game, they're all going to be a quarter.

01:16:26   But like when you would discover like the first time, maybe you're on vacation, maybe a new arcade opened at your mall.

01:16:32   But like the first time you found a new arcade and you could tell it was a good one because it was big and they had not just a game you'd never seen before, but multiple games you had never even seen before.

01:16:44   And you're waiting.

01:16:46   You wanted to play Donkey Kong, but somebody who's really good is already there and they've already got a bunch of quarters up on the thing.

01:16:52   So, you know, they're going to be there a while.

01:16:54   So you just walk the aisle and you can watch other people play games.

01:16:58   And in the same way that maybe you'd see a game that you had tried before, but you were never very good at it.

01:17:05   And oh, there's, here's a girl who's playing Galaga and she's really good.

01:17:10   What is she doing?

01:17:12   Oh, I never thought to move around like that.

01:17:15   I was like, oh, the asteroids watching someone else play asteroids.

01:17:19   I was like, oh, it had not even occurred or in that matter defender like games where you're like, I had no idea that that was a thing that I could even do.

01:17:26   Defender was an incredibly difficult game.

01:17:30   Just saying.

01:17:30   Well, and of course Stargate, but like you would learn, like hang out in this area, wait for this thing to happen, go into the Stargate, do this thing.

01:17:37   You know, it's like, yeah.

01:17:38   It's Centipede was like that.

01:17:39   Centipede was a very fun game.

01:17:41   I enjoyed the novelty of the track ball and it had really cool sounds, but I would die very quickly and I didn't want to squander my quarters.

01:17:49   And then I'd see somebody who was good at it and say, oh, you can kind of hide there when that spider drops down.

01:17:55   And you're once your, the spider is only going to go that direction.

01:17:58   So once you get past it, you can, yeah, I get it.

01:18:00   And that's what it's like hanging out in this mid journey discord where except there are no quarters.

01:18:08   You can just keep going forever.

01:18:10   And there's, you can't really run out like no matter how cool the arcade and how many new games they had.

01:18:16   Eventually you either looked at them and decided, ah, I don't even want to play that.

01:18:20   Or you tried them all.

01:18:22   Whereas in this, it's like an endless stream of new games keep getting dolly carded into the arcade.

01:18:28   Right.

01:18:28   Oh my.

01:18:29   And there's no people aren't griefing.

01:18:31   Like it's a cool community.

01:18:32   Like, uh, my time there was nothing.

01:18:36   I would say nothing, not even vaguely inappropriate.

01:18:38   And it doesn't seem like anybody, there's some commentary between people like, whoa, that's really cool.

01:18:43   Can't believe you did that.

01:18:44   We never thought to use that syntax.

01:18:46   There's a little bit of that, but for the most part, it's just people typing images in.

01:18:50   And at least my time there, which was, I don't know how many hours, but it was too many.

01:18:55   I don't want to know.

01:18:55   I didn't see anything that I wouldn't have wanted a teenager to see.

01:18:59   I don't, and I don't know how much of that is that their training model blocks stuff that would be violent or terribly sexual or something like that.

01:19:08   I didn't see anything inappropriate.

01:19:09   And I can only imagine that the,

01:19:12   probably not as bad as a lot of zoom calls for our school, but they're still finding a way in.

01:19:17   But I think that's so valuable.

01:19:18   You get to be like the AI senpai, like you get to be there and follow along.

01:19:23   I mean, and not to try and make this practical, but like, there is also this aspect of, well, what, why would you do this?

01:19:27   What is it for?

01:19:28   And like, well, you know, we've asked that about a lot of stuff in the past, but, and sometimes some of us get a nose for going, like, I don't know what this, like, I don't know how this becomes the next job.

01:19:38   I didn't know how it would become a job in 1993 to make web page or 94 to make web pages.

01:19:43   And somehow it did kind of, you know what I mean?

01:19:44   Like, but it's, I think it's going to be crazy interesting and we don't have anywhere near time to talk about it today, but what, there's so many things where I used to look down my nose and go like, Oh God, really?

01:19:54   Like you're worried about robots rights and you think all these things and like, but more and more I will, once I actually learn something about something like this, I go, Oh, now I understand what the big deal is, but also I understand why this is a complicated thing.

01:20:06   It is all the people, and again, they talked about this on ATP, but all the people on who's, if you're in the corpus, like you may be like, Hey, like you can't use my, my drawing to do that or whatever.

01:20:17   You're trying to put me out of business.

01:20:18   And as everyone, we try to predict the future.

01:20:20   I think like, we don't even know what we don't know yet about this.

01:20:23   That's, that could be a whole episode.

01:20:26   I thought about that whole can of worms of the ethics.

01:20:28   I agree. And Charlie Warzel illustrated a piece in his galaxy brain newsletter a month or two ago, probably closer to two months at this point, where his hero art for this issue of the newsletter was an AI generated picture of Alec, dipshit, info wars.

01:20:45   Oh, I did some good Alex Jones.

01:20:47   Alex Jones.

01:20:47   It was a really good Alex Jones.

01:20:49   And his idea was, look, the rules of his newsletter at the Atlantic is that there's got to be a hero art thing at the top, and they have an access to Getty images, and he can type out a hero art, if I understand correctly, john is talking about when you have a primary large image on a page that will then also be used in stuff like a card, right? Twitter, right.

01:21:06   And yeah, almost every website, other than mine does it with every post or sites.

01:21:12   It's not about Safari tabs, you're not interested.

01:21:14   Right.

01:21:14   But his thinking was, I don't want to just get one of these stock images from Getty photos from Getty images of Alec Jones, which have all we've all been used before.

01:21:24   And his budget wasn't such for each issue, you know, like you pay, I don't know what they pay Getty for that 150 bucks or something like that, or whatever for a licensed photo.

01:21:33   He doesn't have the $1,000 it would take to commission a human artist to draw an original piece of art that wasn't even an option.

01:21:42   And people freaked out that him using AI generated art, and it was really good.

01:21:47   It was really the tone of it was amazing.

01:21:49   And he took it to heart and followed up and took it all on the chin and said, Look, I wasn't really thinking like that, but I'm not going to do it again.

01:21:56   I'm not going to use this again.

01:21:57   And his over the objections were that was it the whole you're going to put artists out of exactly more or less to encapsulate a complex argument into something?

01:22:04   Yeah, I was not I'm not trying to be reductive.

01:22:06   Right.

01:22:06   That's the nature of it.

01:22:07   But I think that saying I'm not going to use that I won't do this again is so is going to look so foolish because everybody's going to use this.

01:22:14   And it's if you're an illustrator, I don't think you're going to be put out of business.

01:22:17   But you know, I think human illustrators have going to have to twist their styles into a direction that the AI systems can't replicate, right.

01:22:26   And so it there's will quickly I think we'll get to a point where everybody will recognize the AI generated ones no matter how original they are.

01:22:33   But it is what it is.

01:22:35   You can't put this is toothpaste that can't go back in the tube, right?

01:22:38   Yeah, I think you're probably right.

01:22:39   It's like file sharing, right?

01:22:40   We could talk about how it's wrong and it's putting musical artists needed to get paid and blah, blah, blah.

01:22:45   And but it's you can't put it back in or we could talk about how Spotify and Apple Music don't pay artists enough from this the streaming the 10 bucks a month you pay to your service of choice.

01:22:55   Not enough of that music goes to the artists that might be in the news and the newspaper where I was a clerk in 1988 doesn't sell as many copies in right.

01:23:02   It's okay.

01:23:03   But yeah, that's true.

01:23:05   That's a really good point.

01:23:05   It is what it is.

01:23:07   You've been that you've what was your you have those stories about going the paper used to work out where you go in the morning and you could see all the like the copies being sent out.

01:23:14   And I'm not trying to say I'm not trying to be unkind at all because you know, we all have to contend with all of these things.

01:23:19   But a lot of times there are opportunities to it's just that we can't you're not a Toyota plant.

01:23:25   Yeah.

01:23:26   You can't be just retooled into like, oh, now I make stuff that's better than AI like I don't know what the answer to that is, but I do know that it's probably a pretty good chance.

01:23:34   The answer is not make this go away.

01:23:36   Yeah, it's that's not the answer.

01:23:39   And there is the question of the training right?

01:23:41   And if these millions of model of images that went in to feed the models, how are those people being compensated?

01:23:46   I guess they're like a doesn't seem like I'm you you'll remember along with me that in the early days of the web like you think about when like photographers first started putting up their portfolios.

01:23:55   And within about a week, we're like, forget that.

01:23:58   And so you get the like the wedding photographers style like watermarks, everything.

01:24:03   It's like, hey, have this food.

01:24:04   I already pooped on it for you.

01:24:05   Like, I don't know if that really stopped them.

01:24:08   And now today, probably in AI could probably fill in all the places where there was slightly transparent letters.

01:24:13   But like, I'm not saying that to be unkind or say, oh, book up.

01:24:16   It is what it is.

01:24:17   But look at this.

01:24:18   You've let's say you're an up and coming musician in our of our generation.

01:24:22   We heard everything from the Beatles and the Stones and the Who and the Kinks.

01:24:27   And if that those bands really were your jam, how in the world is what they did not going to infuse what you're making?

01:24:36   Absolutely right.

01:24:37   Or whatever generation musician you are.

01:24:40   The music is operating.

01:24:41   I mean, except in certain kinds of non-western music, we're all operating with the same 12.

01:24:45   Right.

01:24:46   It's and that's the same thing with these image things.

01:24:49   But anyway, mid journey, I want you to check it out.

01:24:52   You're going to love it.

01:24:52   I'm telling you, though, be careful, though.

01:24:55   You know what I mean?

01:24:56   Maybe set a timer.

01:24:58   Now you got to go.

01:24:59   I know we have a limited amount of time, but now there is a part of me that thinks you're just trying to ditch me because you want to go get back in the diffusion.

01:25:05   Well, let me take one more break.

01:25:06   I've got one last break to make here.

01:25:07   And it's for my very best friend here.

01:25:09   Squarespace.

01:25:10   Oh, kids.

01:25:11   I'm wearing a Squarespace shirt.

01:25:13   Oh, you can't make it up.

01:25:15   You know what?

01:25:16   Hi, I'm that guy.

01:25:18   Look, Squarespace, you know what it is?

01:25:20   It's the all in one service.

01:25:23   You go there, you can read everything, register the domain, pick a template, tweak the template, put your entire original design in.

01:25:32   If you can do that.

01:25:33   John story, you get you think they give you a store now they give you a store.

01:25:36   You're trying to make a store, John, you go on, you get all I got a ploned fork that'll let me accept dirt coin.

01:25:41   No, this is like a whole thing.

01:25:43   It actually works.

01:25:44   And they give it to you with the website.

01:25:45   It's nuts.

01:25:46   And it's just their analytics.

01:25:48   Just built in understandable actual human understandable analytics to see who's coming to your site.

01:25:55   Where are they going on your site?

01:25:56   Where are they coming from?

01:25:58   Which sources are actually throwing traffic to your site?

01:26:00   All this stuff you need to update your site and keep it going.

01:26:04   And if it's like a blog on your site, you post through Squarespace.

01:26:07   The actual CMS is all there.

01:26:09   And if and when you do need help, they've got real human beings all the time ready to help you.

01:26:17   Get them through chat, get them on the phone.

01:26:19   It's all there for you.

01:26:20   Just go to squarespace.com/talk show squarespace.com/talk show.

01:26:26   You get a free trial.

01:26:27   And when you're ready to launch, just use that same offer code talk show, save 10% off your first purchase, including prepaying for up to a year, save 10% for up to a year.

01:26:36   And again, that 30 day period, your website is real.

01:26:40   No watermarks.

01:26:41   Speaking of watermarks.

01:26:42   Speaking of watermark, you know, I have I have a podcast that I've been doing for 10 years.

01:26:47   It's always been on Squarespace.

01:26:48   You can do a podcast on Squarespace.

01:26:50   You can do a store on Squarespace.

01:26:51   They got the SEO.

01:26:52   I give Squarespace.

01:26:54   You didn't ask, but I give them my official okey dokey, just like Colonel Potter.

01:26:57   I've got about,

01:26:58   you go to dinner.

01:26:59   What are you doing?

01:27:00   Your kid's gone.

01:27:02   You have no excuses.

01:27:02   It's a long story.

01:27:03   I got it.

01:27:04   Okay.

01:27:04   All right.

01:27:05   You're a long story,

01:27:05   but I want, I did not want to let this episode end.

01:27:08   I knew that once it's almost like getting into the mid journey thing or

01:27:11   give me a full 42 seconds.

01:27:13   What?

01:27:14   I go way back, John.

01:27:16   I want to talk about your wisdom project.

01:27:18   Tell people what it is.

01:27:19   I have a thing up on, on the GitHub, which is now repo.

01:27:22   It used to just be a gist, but a repo, that's just, you know, a friend of the

01:27:25   show, John Siracusa and it's kind of long story short.

01:27:28   It started out as a challenge on Dubai Friday to like, I think we were learning

01:27:32   how to use, I want to say craft.

01:27:34   It might've been obsidian, but probably craft.

01:27:36   We like to do challenges that involve playing with apps.

01:27:38   I started this thing where like, I, how do I describe this?

01:27:42   What?

01:27:42   Cause it's no matter how I put this, it sounds really strange, but it was

01:27:45   basically to share, cause you know, I used to be in the self-help bracket.

01:27:49   I don't know if you know that back when I was, you know, man, you remember that?

01:27:52   We remember we did that.

01:27:53   So talk to the people like the South by Southwest about Jawa blogs.

01:27:56   Do you know what that, you know, that just came up.

01:27:59   Remember the guy we saw on the, in the alleyway?

01:28:02   I surely do.

01:28:02   I made a joke about him on the internet just yesterday.

01:28:05   I was just had dinner with some friends who had a meeting with him and, and I

01:28:09   thought of you and I thought this is in the bag.

01:28:11   Well, he be honest.

01:28:13   No, he was not.

01:28:14   I asked, but he was not.

01:28:16   Cause I think at one point he actually said something along the lines of Robble

01:28:19   Robble.

01:28:19   He was, he was drunk as hell, John is what I remember.

01:28:23   Yeah.

01:28:24   Well sometimes there's good polls and bad polls.

01:28:26   But the idea was I wanted to start, I don't know, let's set aside for a minute.

01:28:29   How I'll start.

01:28:29   The point was I wanted to write down, start writing down, capturing a lot of

01:28:32   the stuff that's become sort of instrumental things I've learned.

01:28:36   Not because I'm dead or not because I'm old, but just because I thought it'd be a

01:28:40   fun idea to like take up the advice that has helped me over time and you know how

01:28:45   writing is where sometimes you start with one thing, you end up with a different

01:28:49   thing.

01:28:49   However, it started out what I ended up with was having a receptacle in which to

01:28:54   put in which to write something, which is a fun thing for me to get back into, but

01:28:58   also to have a way to still like, here's all the little bits of stuff that I've

01:29:01   learned over time.

01:29:02   Things that people used to say to me.

01:29:03   I it's intended as something like advice, but really more.

01:29:07   It's also a not confessional in the sense of Sylvia Plath and Robert Lowell, but

01:29:11   confessional in the sense of like, Hey, I screwed up a lot of stuff and I started

01:29:16   screwing up this particular thing a little bit less when I learned this thing or

01:29:21   understood this thing.

01:29:22   A way of changing my, I mean, the very first one is sometimes an email is just a

01:29:26   way to say, I love you.

01:29:27   Well, okay.

01:29:28   Genius.

01:29:28   What does that mean?

01:29:29   Well, what that means is when I get all mad about email and all the people who are

01:29:32   bothering me with email, like, man, don't be a dick.

01:29:36   Sometimes people are just checking in.

01:29:38   Sometimes people ask how you're doing when they're actually worried about how they're

01:29:41   doing.

01:29:42   That took, did you know that when you were 12?

01:29:44   No, I didn't.

01:29:45   Your kids are little versions of themselves, not little versions of you.

01:29:49   Did you know that when you had a kid?

01:29:50   I didn't.

01:29:51   And it's not stuff I'm not trying to like be snooty and high minded about it, but it

01:29:54   is really fun as a writing project, but it's also, you know, it is, it's like once

01:29:59   you start carrying a notebook, you know, where we write stuff down.

01:30:02   Sounds silly until you start doing it, but it's nice because it's become like a

01:30:07   just a big bucket for a lot of ideas and the more time I spend on it, some of it not

01:30:12   public.

01:30:12   I want to spend more time on the writing of it and I have ideas for things to do with

01:30:16   it, but yeah, it started out as just kind of a lark right now.

01:30:19   Some advice and all full credit to you.

01:30:22   It's all because of markdown.

01:30:23   I never would have gotten any of this done if it wasn't just basically the markdown

01:30:28   version of a very long UL.

01:30:31   Ah, that's very kind of you.

01:30:34   I appreciate that.

01:30:35   But that is anything else.

01:30:37   If I'd done this in Scrivener, we'd have two items on the page, nothing against

01:30:41   Scrivener, but I have a, I will fiddle if I have a way to fiddle, I will fiddle.

01:30:45   I did sort of why I made markdown.

01:30:48   Honestly, I get it.

01:30:49   That is extremely edifying to me.

01:30:52   I've heard that sometimes most for the most part, people use markdown to write blog

01:30:57   posts type things on the internet, which is what it was.

01:31:00   But occasionally people have other projects that use it.

01:31:03   And when they thank me, I'm always incredibly edified because that's, and they

01:31:07   always say the same thing because it gets out of your way and it gives you something

01:31:10   that you cannot put, you can't fiddle with.

01:31:14   It's very kind of you to say that.

01:31:15   I want everybody, I could sit here and just read, read these and then we'd be here for

01:31:20   another hour.

01:31:20   Did you actually read it, Jon?

01:31:21   Did you find any that you liked?

01:31:22   I, I love all of them.

01:31:24   See, I could tell, I could tell you didn't even look at it.

01:31:26   Yeah, that's fine.

01:31:27   I don't, no, I'm above that at this point.

01:31:29   I really am.

01:31:29   I like the ones, you know what ones, I like the ones.

01:31:32   And I don't know how you order them.

01:31:34   I don't even want to know.

01:31:35   I don't think because they're not necessarily categorized together, but I like the ones.

01:31:40   The challenge is figuring out how to keep them sewn together.

01:31:44   Is it, but the thing is, Jon, you know, what's not in markdown and extended taxonomy for

01:31:50   converting things into EPUBs.

01:31:51   That's a different project.

01:31:52   Right.

01:31:53   New line, new line, new line, writing, writing, writing.

01:31:55   You're not tagging each item with a bunch of tags.

01:31:58   They're just, every time I feel like doing that, I say, go write 10 more.

01:32:01   I like the ones that deal with clutter.

01:32:03   You've got one.

01:32:04   I don't have, I don't have any of them.

01:32:06   Be careful how much stuff you warehouse with the idea that someone might quote, want it someday.

01:32:11   Well, you've got one that just like, perhaps if you have trouble keeping up with, say your dirty dishes, perhaps you have too many dishes.

01:32:18   And that is a very clever insight.

01:32:20   And my, I have a sort of hoarder gene.

01:32:23   My mom, I worry is, yeah, the way to solve this problem is more forks.

01:32:26   No, it's not.

01:32:27   That's not the way to solve this problem.

01:32:29   When I was in college, we had to eventually go to something that, this will probably go in there at some point, we called the one fork rule, which is like when we reached a certain point of three 20 year old men living in a room, living in a house together, we had to like call lockdown, basically, rank rank, all the clock songs are going off because we're going into one fork mode for the next week.

01:32:46   And so we can earn the ability to have more than one fork without leaving a mess.

01:32:51   A lot of it is just stuff that like seems intuitive. That's not the stuff in your life where you need to be kind of shaken out of, I mean, stuff even from the last few years, call somebody what they want to be called and don't be a dick about it.

01:33:03   I could elaborate more on that.

01:33:05   You know, some of these get a little bit woolly, but they're mostly a sentence or two.

01:33:08   I, you've never written a book, right?

01:33:13   Never finished a book.

01:33:14   Me neither.

01:33:16   But to me, I don't know that everybody who's good at writing and good at sharing thoughts and advice is meant to write books.

01:33:22   That was, it was a, it was a brutal thing for me to realize.

01:33:24   I had bitten off, as you might say, more than I can chew.

01:33:27   I can't even go into all the reasons why.

01:33:29   I think this is your finest written work.

01:33:32   I appreciate you saying that.

01:33:33   Well, I was gonna say was that with the 43 folders days, what I realized too late when I was already into doing this book project was that I have a certain sweet spot for certain amounts of words.

01:33:43   Like I think I've done a pretty, I've done pretty good in the past with 140 and occasionally 280 characters, but that's why Twitter was fun.

01:33:50   There's guard rails.

01:33:51   It's 140 characters.

01:33:52   That's it.

01:33:53   And then, but then like honestly, what I discovered was that I, the stuff that I'm most happy about having written and that I like sharing with people, I don't know, 3000 to 5000 words.

01:34:05   I don't have a brain that works in 12,000 word increments.

01:34:09   And that's what puts me into that spin or like why I need something like mark down to keep me focused because then I'll be doing all I should make this an outline.

01:34:17   I should make this a mind map and all these different things that are taking me further and further away from just typing words.

01:34:23   I mean, like I thank you for saying that because I really appreciate it.

01:34:28   Like any truly like any great work of art, it best just enjoyed for what it is.

01:34:35   So what I, what I, what I imagine, rather than talk and talk about it and read my favorite ones or whatever, I just wanted to encourage everybody listening to just go read it.

01:34:44   But you know, be ready.

01:34:45   It's, I think I just tried to pretend print a PDF there and it's about 30 pages total.

01:34:51   It's like a book lit.

01:34:53   It'll be, it'll, what I eventually want to get to someday is to make it where you could say, show me all the stuff about this kind of thing, that kind of thing.

01:35:01   Print me a Moby or an EPUB someday.

01:35:03   But honestly, it's all right there if anybody wants it.

01:35:05   People have already written stuff, mostly against the gist, but like it's all pretty well formed.

01:35:11   It's just marked down.

01:35:12   So if you wanted to make, see people would made like a fortune, sort of the equivalent of fortune on Unix with it and which is great.

01:35:18   And it's, it's, I think I put a pretty generous creative commons on it so people can use it as long as they're doing it for money stuff.

01:35:25   Yeah, but to me, it's, I don't want to get into talking about EPUB readers and the Kindle and the books app and everything.

01:35:31   You don't want to talk about the wonderful Python app caliber.

01:35:34   You don't want to talk about that.

01:35:34   But you know what I like to do as I like to just sit back with something in an iPad and just sit there and scroll and have it be the nice readable size font.

01:35:43   Well, have me on someday to really talk about this because like I grew up, I cut my teeth on reference books.

01:35:49   I loved things like obviously encyclopedias, but I also love things like the book of lists and the book rules of thumb and all these different things where there's just so many like little tidbits, little heuristics.

01:36:01   For like trying to make it through the day.

01:36:03   And anyway, I appreciate you saying that.

01:36:06   Have me back on another time and maybe it'll be more, there'll be more stuff there, but it'll still be in Markdown because I, that's, that is the way and I love you for making more.

01:36:13   Our first email was Markdown.

01:36:15   You remember that?

01:36:15   You said, hey, if you want that, if you like that so much, if you're so gay for that, why don't you go use, go use Dean's one?

01:36:21   Humane text.

01:36:22   The way he does it, if you love it so much, why don't you gay marry it?

01:36:24   Textile.

01:36:25   I said, thank you, John.

01:36:26   I enjoy your work.

01:36:26   Well, I enjoy your work, Merlin.

01:36:30   Thank you very much.

01:36:31   Thanks as ever for doing the show.

01:36:32   What do you want to throw a shout out to that you do?

01:36:34   You mentioned the do by Friday.

01:36:35   That's your fine podcast with Alex Cox.

01:36:38   You know what I'll say?

01:36:38   I usually dither about this and, uh, but you know what?

01:36:41   I would say go check out Reconcilable Differences with my very, very worst dear friend, John Siracusa.

01:36:47   We do a show called Reconcilable Differences and it's a relay.fm/rd.

01:36:52   And I think we've, I think it's a good show.

01:36:54   I mean, if you like that kind of thing and the upcoming episode is a lot of fun.

01:36:58   John talks a lot about all his problems with what John likes to say, I think is that ATP,

01:37:03   Accidental Tech Podcast is his tech show and this is his show about feelings.

01:37:06   He has them.

01:37:08   They're in there and it's a joy to do.

01:37:10   I, he's my worst friend, but I love him very much.

01:37:12   And I think I, I suspect it's fun to watch our relationship be broken in kind of a sweet way.

01:37:17   It's, it is.

01:37:18   All right, let me thank our sponsors.

01:37:19   We had a Squarespace where you can make your next move.

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01:37:33   And last but not least, our good friend, Alex Weinstein, where you can get custom music made just for your own needs.

01:37:39   Thanks, Marilyn.

01:37:41   Thanks, John.