The Talk Show

358: ‘Double-Digit Domains’, With Paul Kafasis


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00:01:25   One down, one down five to go. Maybe only four to go. Are you

00:01:30   following the the home run race? Some I'm he's still stuck at 60

00:01:34   right? Yeah, he had as we record as we record today on Wednesday,

00:01:39   the 28th. Now by the time people listen to us, he might have

00:01:42   already have Jared jizz. We're talking about Aaron judge from

00:01:45   the New York Yankees. He's at 60 home runs. The American League

00:01:48   record is 61. That's what people are talking about. I want to

00:01:51   I'll come back to that. By the time people listen to us, he

00:01:55   might be at 61. He might be at 62. He could could be at 63. Who

00:01:58   knows? He more than that. Yeah, right. But last night he went he

00:02:02   went, did he even have a plate appear? Or did he even have an

00:02:04   a bat? He got he got four walks. I heard he had four walks last

00:02:07   night against the Toronto Blue Jays with that's part of that's

00:02:10   part of the game, right? And it's you know, I mean, the Blue

00:02:12   Jays are in it. So right, you know, they it's legitimate for

00:02:15   that because the night before he got intentionally walked, and

00:02:18   they won the game, the Blue Jays won the game, which they needed.

00:02:20   So you can't fault them for that. Right? There's there's no

00:02:24   whatever reluctance any team has, and any pitcher might have to be

00:02:29   the team and the pitcher to give up a record breaking remembered

00:02:34   home run. You don't have to be a sports psychologist to to get

00:02:38   that nobody really wants to be that pitcher. The Blue Jays are

00:02:40   definitely trying to win. They're not walking them for

00:02:42   that reason. I listened to the the Keith Olbermann has brought

00:02:46   back his old TV show countdown is now a podcast and it's I just

00:02:51   love it. It's literally with with overcast speed ratings. I

00:02:55   probably get through in about half an hour. It's like a half

00:02:57   hour a day like a daily news podcast. But of course, Keith

00:03:00   Olbermann while the main focus of his show is US National

00:03:04   Affairs, for lack of a better term. He's big, big base on a

00:03:08   sports sports band. Yeah, he used to used to be a ESPN Sports

00:03:13   Center. That's probably where most people in the 90s got to

00:03:16   know him. Certainly came to Nash and Dan Patrick. Right,

00:03:19   right. The sort of still famous is like maybe is it nostalgia? I

00:03:24   don't know, probably in my mind, the seminal duo, who ran Sports

00:03:27   Center, my favorite running gag of the era was they were the 90s

00:03:33   of the the Dan Patrick Keith Olbermann Sports Center was

00:03:37   every weekend. If they were doing Sports Center, and there's

00:03:41   a NASCAR race on they would tell you who came in first who came

00:03:44   in second who came in third and where Dick trickle finished. Of

00:03:49   course. Dick trickle was a NASCAR racer with let's say a

00:03:56   very amusing name. And they would never say why but they

00:03:59   would just say so and so came in first second and here was third

00:04:03   and Dick trickle finished 21st. And they wouldn't laugh they

00:04:07   wouldn't giggle but they would always tell you where Dick

00:04:09   trickle finished. Anyway, my favorite I think I think it was

00:04:12   Olbermann was they were talking they must have been talking

00:04:15   about a baseball game and he said that's a that's an E7 an

00:04:18   error on the on the left fielder that's an E7 if you're scoring

00:04:21   at home, or even if you're alone. That's a little bit of a

00:04:27   thinker you gotta it takes a second but does. So anyway,

00:04:31   I Olbermann has been talking about the home run race and

00:04:34   there are so many weird baseball is such a weird sport and I we

00:04:38   have nerd stuff to talk about but it everyone loves when we

00:04:43   talk about baseball. Absolutely definitely do it. But but the

00:04:45   very strangest thing about baseball in the US at least is

00:04:50   that it predates all the other major sports by decades that the

00:04:55   history of Major League Baseball goes back to like the 18 70s

00:04:59   1860s. I mean, we're talking like when Lincoln's assassination

00:05:03   was fresh news, fresh. And the rules were very different. And

00:05:09   like I know some of this but I forget it over time just how

00:05:13   different some of the rules are. But you know, at one point it

00:05:16   was five balls to get a walk. Okay, there was one season the

00:05:22   all time Major League record I don't have it offhand here in

00:05:24   front of me but the all time Major League record for batting

00:05:27   average. If you just go through every season and pick the player

00:05:31   who finished a season with the highest batting average is not

00:05:35   the record that most people generally most people go to

00:05:38   Rogers Hornsby who I think bad at 420 something in 1920 might

00:05:43   have been 420 in 1920. But that's not the highest recorded

00:05:46   and batting average in Major League Baseball some guy in like

00:05:49   1871 hit 497 or something like that. But but what was different

00:05:54   than they count was a walk a walk was a hit. I thought I think

00:05:58   that for one season so it was in today's terms is on base

00:06:03   percentage which is still a very, very, very good on base

00:06:06   percentage but so now now I'm looking up what was bonds is OBP

00:06:11   in that year when he broke the walk record and it was six Oh,

00:06:15   it'd be Yeah, 609 which is crazy just insane to think in

00:06:20   that sport where it's so notoriously difficult to to get

00:06:23   on base get on base. It wasn't even close that he was on base.

00:06:27   He was on base three out of five times. Yeah. Trying to think

00:06:31   what else the gist of it is people, there's sort of two

00:06:35   sides on this home run record where to sort of stay above the

00:06:41   fray, people are talking about the American League, the

00:06:43   American League, which is 61 and then there's a nice number and

00:06:47   it's near and dear to Yankee fans hearts because the original

00:06:51   record holder in the American League was Babe Ruth 1927 and

00:06:54   then the first player to beat it was also a Yankee Roger Maris in

00:06:59   what was it 1961 61 because it was 61 and 61 is easy to remember

00:07:03   right sort of like the Rogers Hornsby 420 and 1920 which I

00:07:08   might be I might be wrong about but it sounds good. I know it

00:07:12   for Maris it's definitely Yeah, 61 and 61 but there's a lot of

00:07:15   fans do you don't have to be a Yankee fan there's a lot of fans

00:07:18   who view all of the season home run marks above 61 as being a bit

00:07:26   suspect because of the

00:07:29   what was there was there something unusual in the 90s in

00:07:33   baseball john

00:07:34   the the single season home run record above here's what they

00:07:38   are so tied at 10th is Babe Ruth at 59 in 1921 I forgot that John

00:07:44   Carlos Stanton hit 59 in 2017 Babe Ruth is 60 was 1927 Aaron

00:07:50   judges already tied with him then Roger Maris 61 and 61 and

00:07:54   now you get to the late 90s number six is Sammy Sosa 99 with

00:08:00   63 Sosa in 2001 hit 64 Mark McGuire hit 65 and 99 Sammy Sosa

00:08:08   hit 66 in 98 Mark McGuire hit 70 in 98 and then in 2001 Barry

00:08:16   Bonds hit 7373 right so McGuire is on there a couple of times

00:08:21   Sosa is on there 123 times 9098 99 in 2001 I don't know what

00:08:28   happened to him in 2000 yeah they're they're all bunched

00:08:30   together and everybody knows that it was the steroid era

00:08:36   performance enhancing drugs era of baseball but there's no

00:08:40   asterisks next to any of those records because no it wasn't

00:08:44   technically against the rules people I mean it's a very

00:08:47   complicated area right nobody they did in the backlash to it

00:08:52   did set none of those guys are in the Hall of Fame right none of

00:08:56   those guys are in the Hall of Fame but none of them are banned

00:08:58   from like Pete Rose is literally banned from being in the Hall of

00:09:00   Fame they're not the voters don't even get to vote for him

00:09:02   because baseball determined that he broke this that you know the

00:09:06   rule and as a lifetime suspension from baseball none of

00:09:09   these guys got suspended none of these guys are banned these are

00:09:15   the records it's the way it was

00:09:16   right so so yeah when people say the legitimate home run record I

00:09:20   don't know this these things happened I remember the home run

00:09:23   races between McGuire and Sosa and Bonds is ridiculous season

00:09:28   they happened those are the numbers so I think I think

00:09:31   focusing on the American League record makes more sense just

00:09:34   calling it that way

00:09:36   yeah and and the fans the fans I think the fans sort of have the

00:09:39   right attitude or the fans if he gave if he gets to 61 or even 62

00:09:44   then the fans will certainly Yankee fans will be happy but I

00:09:47   think baseball fans in general want to see it happen and if

00:09:50   people want to consider it the the legitimate home run record

00:09:54   that's that's up to them it doesn't really it doesn't make

00:09:57   that big a difference really

00:09:58   well do you know that until I think like until the 90s there

00:10:02   was an asterisk on Maris's record because he did it in 162

00:10:08   games Babe Ruth hit 60 in 154 games and so judge did 60 in 154

00:10:14   and the sort of the hope was that he would break 60 in 154

00:10:19   fewer and obviously he just tied that right but yeah there's I

00:10:22   mean it's all it's all meaningless anyway ultimately

00:10:25   there's not any money attached to this there's not any directly

00:10:28   anyway it's just it's just fun numbers to debate and so you can

00:10:32   have a nice bar debate over who should be considered the

00:10:34   greatest home run hitter or whatever

00:10:36   so what let me get personal though now you're a Red Sox fan

00:10:39   what I am yes so how even this season how how does how does

00:10:44   that where does that put you in terms of how do you like seeing

00:10:49   judge do this yeah were you hoping he'd get stuck on 59

00:10:52   because screw me as a Yankee or you like well but the other guys

00:10:56   are Yankees anyway right so like Aaron judge seems like a nice

00:10:59   enough guy I have no problem with him he's not like usually

00:11:02   you pick one guy on the other team that you don't like and for

00:11:04   a while was Brett Gardner who's no longer on the team and for no

00:11:07   good reason anyway but wait you don't know who you didn't like

00:11:10   you didn't like yeah Gardner no no I hated Brett Gardner hated

00:11:14   him just for no good reason like I said all right I don't know

00:11:16   who while he was on the team forever so that was part of it

00:11:18   but yeah I don't know like I don't well the thing was judge

00:11:21   he had a shot at doing it before they faced the Red Sox then they

00:11:25   played the Red Sox for four games this past weekend and so

00:11:28   the concern was he would do it against the Red Sox so I guess

00:11:30   like that I was rooting for him to not do it this past weekend

00:11:33   right but yeah if he if he hits I'll tell you what I would I

00:11:36   would have liked to have seen him hit 74 then we don't have to

00:11:39   have this debate about the steroids and so hopefully

00:11:42   somebody some year legitimately hit 74 home runs I don't know if

00:11:47   it'll ever happen but you know I don't have a negative opinion

00:11:49   about it I don't I don't think I think at this point he's

00:11:51   probably going to do it and good for him and I'll tell you what

00:11:54   you might be upset because next year he might be a New York Met

00:11:56   I don't know I don't want to think about it exactly it would

00:11:59   have been better if they'd signed him before the season

00:12:02   yes before before he had one of the greatest seasons of all times

00:12:06   in a contract here yeah I think that would have been better for

00:12:09   them he did do he did the thing that Derek Jeter used to always

00:12:13   do you know and then Jeter stay to Yankee his whole career but

00:12:15   you get towards the end of your career and you get shorter and

00:12:18   shorter contracts and you kind of it comes up more often it's

00:12:21   like one time in the prime of your career where you sign like

00:12:24   a 10 year deal and then you don't have to you don't have to

00:12:27   renegotiate for a decade but when when Jeter's contracts are

00:12:30   up he'd always refused to we can either make a deal before the

00:12:34   season starts or after that season but I'm not I'm not I'm

00:12:38   not going to spend even one minute thinking about this

00:12:40   during the season which isn't an unreasonable position and I

00:12:44   think also a lot of players do that yeah and I think it's sort

00:12:47   of it creates a deadline for the team to make their best offer

00:12:50   before the season it's it's not a bad negotiating tactic either

00:12:54   in addition to being a way to stay focused on the game and

00:12:57   compartmentalize it yeah absolutely yeah before we leave

00:13:01   the subject I will bring up the fact that the over the weekend

00:13:04   the the Friday night baseball game on Apple TV was the Sox

00:13:08   Yankees game right and because of Aaron judge being at 60 it

00:13:15   almost had to Apple it doesn't release Ben Thompson and I

00:13:20   talked about this on dithering but I'll go over it here that

00:13:24   the weird thing about these streaming services like Apple TV

00:13:27   plus and Amazon Prime compared to traditional TV is that in

00:13:32   traditional TV networks love to brag about the ratings and for

00:13:37   my whole lifetime decades and they'd be like oh last night's

00:13:41   Monday Night Football game was the highest rated 39 million

00:13:44   people watch yeah 39 million people watch it was the highest

00:13:47   rated regular season NFL game in seven years or something like

00:13:51   that they'd love to say stuff like that and instead what

00:13:54   everybody does now is effectively I think gives out

00:13:57   the Bezos numbers which it was 200% more than last year yeah it

00:14:00   was it was 1.3 times as Apple hasn't I don't think said

00:14:04   anything like that about it but if they did surely they would

00:14:06   give a number like it was 1.6 times higher than the second

00:14:09   rated Friday Night Baseball game of the year but without a

00:14:13   baseline you don't know what that means but so wait did they

00:14:15   say anything I don't I don't think they said anything you're

00:14:18   just assuming it was it was well watched but it was the

00:14:20   fact that it was on it was the first time to my record

00:14:24   recognition all season where my worlds have collide I think you

00:14:28   and I talked about this when you were on six months ago at the

00:14:30   outside right yep right when they started right broadcast

00:14:33   because they just announced the Apple had the Friday Night

00:14:36   Baseball deal and you and me being baseball fans we talked

00:14:40   about it this was the first time that I'm aware of that Friday

00:14:43   Night Baseball was somewhat controversial because it was a

00:14:47   game everyone wanted to watch and people don't know how to

00:14:50   watch stuff on streaming right right are people confused by it

00:14:54   does it make it worse do people think hey I don't even own any

00:14:57   Apple products so I can't watch this right I have an Android

00:15:00   phone I don't I don't have I use a PC why how am I supposed to

00:15:04   watch Apple TV do are people confused by the fact that the

00:15:09   service is called Apple TV and they have a product product a

00:15:13   physical hardware product called Apple TV and then when

00:15:16   you're in the TV OS the app you use to watch the sports is

00:15:21   called TV it are I'm confused by it just trying to describe it

00:15:27   to my audience who I know knows this very well no it's been bad

00:15:31   naming for a couple years and they have not made it better but

00:15:34   I well I I'll tell you what I think it's interesting that

00:15:37   obviously this finally happened that there was a game where

00:15:39   people wanted to check it out and I think it's good for for

00:15:42   the service because it somebody explained it to like their

00:15:46   parents they said oh you want to watch this game here's how you

00:15:48   do it and right now they know how to do it and that's I think

00:15:50   that's exactly what Apple wanted was was more of these marquee

00:15:53   games where people would tune in just for that and learn how to

00:15:57   use the service right people people will complain about

00:16:00   anything on Twitter and the internet as a whole so I tried

00:16:03   not to ever take it too personally or get too annoyed by

00:16:07   it but there I what I saw last week leading up to that game

00:16:12   especially probably in the day before when it was clear from

00:16:14   the night before that he hadn't already broken the record was

00:16:17   there were people saying that what Apple should do is let let

00:16:21   the the Yankees network yes that's their traditional

00:16:25   regional sports network let them broadcast the game too so

00:16:29   that people who are used to Yankees fans or who are used to

00:16:32   watching them and yes can catch it on yes as well. Oh no right

00:16:38   no I mean just obviously no can you even imagine if that

00:16:44   reached any Q's desk like how he would react to that yeah like

00:16:49   did he might still be laughing now now five days later he might

00:16:54   still be laughing I mean like I get the I get the request that

00:16:58   oh I want it to be easy whatever but watching Apple TV is

00:17:02   not actually difficult you need to figure something out you

00:17:05   need to either you can do it in a browser can't you yeah yeah

00:17:08   right so so you don't need any hardware you just need a

00:17:10   computer whatever if it were actually something where you

00:17:13   know oh people aren't going to be able to watch it for

00:17:15   whatever reason then this could make sense but no the whole

00:17:18   reason they made the surface and the whole reason they got

00:17:20   Friday Night Baseball was to get people to come watch the

00:17:22   games right they won't just give away the most important

00:17:25   one of the year it'll be nice not a nice gesture yeah and

00:17:29   even if it was just for the New York Yankees fans it's still

00:17:32   who's the most who's the most likely fan base in baseball

00:17:36   right and if I think I think that a big reason that Apple is

00:17:40   edging its way into sports Amazon is too is to increase

00:17:45   it's not that sports in itself itself is all that valuable

00:17:49   it's that it gets them to expand the user base right so

00:17:54   you are Netflix already has the the stranger things people

00:17:58   right and HBO has already got people who love Game of Thrones

00:18:03   Game of Thrones or whatever yeah so you get people who love

00:18:05   shows like certain things and and you can already get them

00:18:08   but how do you expand and get a new audience and maybe the

00:18:11   audience who just wants to watch the game of the week of

00:18:14   baseball is different than the sort of people who watch shows

00:18:17   like Ted Lasso and Severance and already have Apple TV but I

00:18:21   it's so funny cuz I wanted to ask you about this but we just

00:18:23   got. We just got a thing in the mail today. It's like a postcard

00:18:28   from Amazon and it was addressed to my wife to Amy and

00:18:32   it just says how to watch Thursday Night Football on the

00:18:35   one side and it says so step one open or download the Prime

00:18:41   Video app on your TV computer phone or streaming service sign

00:18:44   in with your Amazon Prime account or sign up for a 30 day

00:18:47   free trial in the Prime Video app select quote Thursday Night

00:18:52   Football step four press watch game on. It's not hard right

00:18:58   that makes sense and and I think people who listen to the

00:19:00   show know what it's like to sign up for a new streaming

00:19:02   service and depending on your device, whether it's an app

00:19:07   store thing for your phone or tablet or your Apple TV box or

00:19:12   it's a go to the web and just search for. I'm sure if you go

00:19:16   to Amazon, the Amazon is all about the the football and of

00:19:19   course the Lord of the Rings show they have on but it is it

00:19:24   it is different than just saying go to turn on the TV to

00:19:29   and go to channel 850. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean there's a

00:19:34   couple extra steps but now wait I wanna back up. This was

00:19:37   addressed to Amy. I assume you your family has a Prime

00:19:40   account. Yes, we do and do you know is it under her name? I

00:19:43   actually don't know. I'm not quite sure if they sent this to

00:19:46   her because she is her account or but they say sign in with

00:19:50   your Amazon Prime account or sign up for a 30-day free trial.

00:19:53   Yeah, but that could just be a catch-all. Right. I'm not quite

00:19:55   sure if she got it because she's the I don't even know I've

00:20:00   had an Amazon account for so long and we've had Prime for so

00:20:02   long that it's right. It's prehistoric in my brain who

00:20:06   signed up for it first or who's well just cuz it's strange for

00:20:09   that to be sent to her instead of you. Well, maybe I'll get

00:20:12   mine tomorrow. Knowing the two of you. She doesn't care about

00:20:15   football and you at least somewhat do. Right. And then the

00:20:17   flip side of the card is the schedule where they just tell

00:20:20   you all the upcoming games that are on Thursday Night Football.

00:20:23   The other thing Ben and I talked about and I do think it's

00:20:25   an interesting point but I think it's more about the Sunday

00:20:28   football experience for me. Streaming services make flipping

00:20:33   way more difficult, right? Like if your habit when you're

00:20:36   watching baseball on regular TV is that when the commercials

00:20:40   come on, you flip to another game. Flip to another game or

00:20:44   flip to something else. Just flip to the news. Just something

00:20:47   so you're not watching TV but you don't maybe you either you

00:20:51   do or do not have a DVR where you can fall behind and then

00:20:54   skip them but a lot of times for sports fans, they don't wanna

00:20:57   be behind. They wanna be live because you don't wanna

00:21:00   accidentally check Twitter when you're bored and find out that

00:21:03   there's a home run coming up in 5 minutes that you didn't get

00:21:06   to yet but the flipping is instrumental to my lifetime of

00:21:11   watching quote unquote regular TV, cable TV. When I was a real

00:21:14   little kid before, I was just gonna say you're young enough,

00:21:17   I'm sorry, you're old enough that you didn't have a remote

00:21:19   early on, right? Right. We did not have a remote control when

00:21:22   I was a little kid and we only had. You were the remote

00:21:25   control. Right and and I don't remember how old I was when we

00:21:29   got cable but I'm gonna say I was around seven or eight. So,

00:21:32   like around 1980, 1981 but I certainly watched TV in the

00:21:37   70s as a wee little kid and you literally had a dial. I know

00:21:42   this really makes me sound ancient but well, no, there

00:21:45   were two dials on the TV and the one didn't do anything and

00:21:49   I've never, I still don't understand it. It's like these

00:21:51   are the UHF channels. Yeah, I was gonna say, wasn't that for

00:21:53   UHF? Yeah, but there was never anything on them. Alright. We

00:21:56   definitely were getting them over the air with an antenna

00:21:59   that was on the roof of our house. It was fine. You know,

00:22:01   I'm sure that to my eyes now, if I looked at the way Sesame

00:22:05   Street looked over the air, I'd be like, I can't believe how

00:22:07   staticky this is. This is ridiculous. Oh, god, yeah. But you literally would just get

00:22:11   up and turn a dial to to change it but I remember when we

00:22:15   got cable, you know, what a game changer it was and you

00:22:17   needed, I mean, it was like the cable box came with its own

00:22:19   remote. Right, cuz it had at that point, twenty, thirty, forty

00:22:23   channels. Right and the TVs didn't get cable without the

00:22:27   cable box. All of the, it's, it took a while for the TV sets

00:22:31   to get there. It wasn't like you needed a box just to get

00:22:33   like the premium channels like HBO. You needed a cable box for

00:22:37   everything cuz your TV just didn't didn't crock cable. So,

00:22:41   the cable company would give you your own remote and I

00:22:45   remember it was pretty decent remote because it didn't have

00:22:47   to do everything else. It didn't have to control the TV.

00:22:50   So, it's just sort of like a number pad and an enter button

00:22:53   and just to switch channels. Right and you could, I think

00:22:55   it's always been sort of the UI for lack of a better

00:22:59   description. The user interface for flipping between the two

00:23:02   most recent channels on most remotes is just press enter

00:23:05   without entering the number first and it'll go back. So,

00:23:08   you could put two games on like on a Sunday afternoon to watch

00:23:12   football and you could have the AFC game on one channel and

00:23:15   the NFC game on the other and if you didn't particularly care

00:23:18   about one game cuz it's not your favorite team and you're

00:23:20   just sort of having a lazy Sunday afternoon watching

00:23:23   football. What I would do is just watch till we got to a

00:23:27   commercial. Flip to the other one and then it wasn't in a

00:23:30   commercial. Hope it wasn't in a commercial and watch that one

00:23:32   until it got to a commercial and then if one of the games was a

00:23:36   blowout and one was exciting and close, maybe stick with that

00:23:39   one. Actually watch a commercial. See what happens.

00:23:41   Sure. But so, so you're now you're thinking about streaming

00:23:44   services where you're much more locked in. Cuz you're you lose

00:23:49   your place, right? I mean, you can't just switch between like

00:23:52   if Apple, let's just say in the future if Apple has a baseball

00:23:55   game at the same time that Amazon has a baseball game, how

00:23:58   do you flip between the two? No, you can't cuz the I mean,

00:24:02   even if you can load them both up in the apps, I think it'll

00:24:05   pause or right. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. I think that's I well to

00:24:09   me that sounds like a feature for to the developers of these

00:24:13   apps because it means you're not gonna flip away from them.

00:24:16   Right. But it's it it's irritating and. Contrary to the

00:24:22   mindset of the sports fan in my opinion, right? Yeah, I'll give

00:24:26   you that and sports sports is something you don't watch 100%

00:24:31   at least I don't focused on especially a baseball game like

00:24:34   I'll have in the background while I'm making dinner or

00:24:35   something right. So yeah, flipping away from a game

00:24:38   during a commercial and if you miss the first the next 30

00:24:41   seconds of the game, whatever it's no big deal. But yeah with

00:24:43   the streaming services just not really an option. And I just

00:24:47   think that there's there's a weird consumer psychology play

00:24:53   here where if you're Apple or you're Amazon or anybody else

00:24:59   who wants to get into sports like if Netflix decides to get

00:25:02   into sports, but it seems so far like it's Amazon and Apple

00:25:05   in the US who are sort of focusing the streaming on

00:25:08   sports. Yeah. You don't wanna make people angry and sports

00:25:12   fans will get angry about anything like it like we talked

00:25:15   about people will get angry about what's home run records

00:25:17   the real home run record but like when the baseball playoffs

00:25:22   switch TNT now has the American League Divisional series and it

00:25:27   used to be on ESPN and so you just plug a different number or

00:25:32   you go to your guide on your TV. They usually put the

00:25:35   channels that carry sports somewhat close to each other.

00:25:37   Find the one that says MLB postseason and hit the button

00:25:41   on that and now you're watching it and your biggest complaint

00:25:44   might be that you don't like the announcers right of course,

00:25:47   but it wasn't when you know that there's a playoff game on

00:25:51   you wanna watch it. You just you're gonna find it and you

00:25:54   just go up and down the guide and oh there it is. It's on

00:25:57   it's on TBS this week. So boom I'm watching it. Whereas this

00:26:02   this is even with these easy steps go here sign in or if you

00:26:08   don't have an account sign up for a 30 day free trial and

00:26:11   then find the thing and hit watch. I don't know. I feel like

00:26:16   there's an alienation effect of this. Well, I mean what do you

00:26:20   think they should do differently? I don't think

00:26:22   there's anything they can do differently. Yeah. That's it. I

00:26:24   think they're right to get into sports. I think it's one of

00:26:27   those disruptive ideas. This transition from linear cable to

00:26:33   streaming streaming service, but I also the other thing I think

00:26:35   that they really need to do here. Here's the one thing I

00:26:38   think they could do technically and I haven't watched the

00:26:41   Amazon's Thursday Night Football yet this season. I think

00:26:44   there's only been one or two games and I've been busy on

00:26:47   Thursday nights, but I do think that they should or optimize

00:26:51   their technical stack to make it as much like cable as possible

00:26:55   so that there's the least amount of lag and that if you do

00:27:00   switch to another app or switch your input or something like

00:27:03   that on your TV temporarily and come back to keep it going in

00:27:07   the background if they can. I was gonna say I'm not even sure

00:27:10   if they can. I won't say that they can't. Right. It very well

00:27:13   could be the device. Right. Has the control over that as

00:27:16   opposed to the app. Right. Like TV, like even if you're

00:27:18   watching on Apple TV, but if it's the Amazon app, it has to

00:27:21   follow by the rules of the TV OS platform. Right. And they

00:27:26   don't just keep streaming and when you're watching most stuff

00:27:30   in a streaming app like Game of Thrones or Stranger Things on

00:27:34   Netflix or whatever else and you switch away, you don't want

00:27:38   it to keep playing. Right. You want it to pause. Right. You

00:27:41   want it to pause automatically. Whereas live sports are

00:27:45   different. I feel like it's an unsolved problem. Computers can

00:27:49   obviously do this. Right. This is not something that can't be

00:27:54   solved, but it's a very different... It's fascinating to

00:28:00   me how different it is. Whereas like I'll go back to TBS and

00:28:05   sometimes they show old movies and sometimes they show live

00:28:08   sports, but the guy running the console at TBS headquarters just

00:28:15   is making sure that the right thing is being broadcast over

00:28:18   the cable wire at the right time and that's it. And it

00:28:20   doesn't matter to him whether it's live sports or a replay of

00:28:24   Raiders of the Lost Ark or something like that. Whereas for

00:28:28   the streaming services, I think they kind of need two different

00:28:31   implementations. And the other place I'm going with this is

00:28:34   this rumor that Apple might be interested in getting the NFL

00:28:37   Sunday ticket. Right. Which is all about switching. The whole

00:28:41   point, nobody buys Sunday ticket if they're not watching

00:28:43   multiple games at the same time either on multiple TVs or

00:28:47   like dividing one big TV up into four squares and having

00:28:50   four games at once. And I never really thought about it. I

00:28:53   don't have... You have to have DirecTV to get it at this point.

00:28:57   I've never had that. But apparently they've made it very,

00:29:00   very easy to... Well, but for something like that, they can

00:29:04   do a split screen kind of thing within the app and let you...

00:29:08   Does the MLB app right now let you do two games at once?

00:29:13   I don't know. I think it does.

00:29:14   Yeah. So I'd have to look at this again because I haven't

00:29:18   paid that much attention to sports at all this year because

00:29:21   it's been terrible here in Boston. But the split screen

00:29:24   stuff is really the way to do this is like, especially if

00:29:27   they have Sunday ticket and you say, "Okay, in slot one play

00:29:30   the NFC game and in slot two play the AFC game, whatever."

00:29:33   All within the app and then you're just flipping between

00:29:36   them. The app is controlling it. I guess at that point, you

00:29:39   know, you couldn't do that in a browser as easily. But there's

00:29:42   at least ways to solve it for one thing like that for within

00:29:47   just within the app. Because again, for several years,

00:29:49   they've done March Madness. Like CBS, the CBS app has had

00:29:53   some sort of split screen where you could be watching multiple

00:29:55   NCAA basketball games at once. That's like the perfect example

00:29:59   of when you want to switch because you don't care about any

00:30:01   of these teams.

00:30:01   Yeah, just show me one where it's a one point lead.

00:30:04   Where it's close or like where my seed is going to win,

00:30:06   whatever. And that I think has been the solution is just

00:30:09   split screen.

00:30:10   Yeah, and I would say that I'm glad you mentioned it because

00:30:14   I've been a typical March Madness fan who doesn't really

00:30:17   watch that much. I used to watch tons of college basketball

00:30:19   when I was a young man with seemingly infinite time on my

00:30:24   hands. But yeah, I've used that app for years and I have to

00:30:27   say it is actually a very good app.

00:30:29   Right. That's what I remember from using it was that it worked

00:30:31   the way you're describing of being able to flip between

00:30:33   things and focus on the one that you want.

00:30:35   The last thing I'll touch on is with the Apple TV Plus. With

00:30:39   Amazon Prime, I think the deal is a little bit more clear.

00:30:42   I wonder how much of a problem it is for Apple that the, do I

00:30:49   have to pay for this question is so ambiguous for Apple TV?

00:30:54   I was going to ask you for the, has the baseball been free

00:30:57   all year?

00:30:57   I believe it has been free all year.

00:30:59   I thought so. It was initially they said free through June or

00:31:02   July, whatever. And then it was a question of whether they

00:31:04   were going to start charging or next year they'll start

00:31:06   charging, whatever. But I think that's correct that these

00:31:09   games are all free. So anyone who was saying like, oh, I want

00:31:12   to watch this game and they should give it back to yes. All

00:31:14   they had to do was go to, I don't even know, but appletv.com

00:31:18   and they don't even need to pay for it.

00:31:20   Right. I believe you probably can go to appletv.com. I think

00:31:24   you can also go to tv.apple.com. But I do, but I think people

00:31:28   have it in their head. Yeah. If you go to appletv.com, it

00:31:33   redirects you somewhere with all of them. They're trying to

00:31:36   sell you stuff. All of Apple's various things called Apple TV,

00:31:40   Apple TV, 4k, Apple TV, HD, Apple TV app, Apple TV plus,

00:31:47   and then I guess tv.apple.com gets you to Apple TV plus,

00:31:51   which is their streaming service. Right. I just wonder

00:31:54   though, how much of it is in the back of people's heads where

00:31:56   this is where they're going to get me. Right. And people are

00:31:59   rightfully, I'd like to come back with this at the end of the

00:32:03   show, talking about rogue amoeba and subscriptions.

00:32:05   Subscription fatigue is a real thing, right? Like, it is a huge

00:32:10   thing. It's been a shift for content that you consume. It has

00:32:14   been a shift in the software industry. So for people who

00:32:17   actually pay for their professional software tools,

00:32:19   it's at some level, it'd be very surprising to find anybody

00:32:23   who's considered themselves a computer professional who

00:32:26   doesn't subscribe to some kind of some service service or app

00:32:30   or something like that. And it people realize, and they're

00:32:37   right. I think that this is one of those cases where the person

00:32:40   on the streets attitude is right, where you kind of do want

00:32:43   to, hey, every couple months, you should like just take a

00:32:46   look at your credit card bill and look at every single

00:32:49   monthly subscription that's on there. And maybe circle a couple

00:32:53   of them that that you haven't watched in a while. Like I'm

00:32:56   old. Has anybody watched anything on Hulu in months? I

00:32:58   don't know. It's easier to cancel than cable TV was back in

00:33:03   the day where you don't used to have to drive down to a

00:33:05   sketchy part of town and take your equipment in and where

00:33:08   they were at least at least around here, they had

00:33:10   bulletproof glass, which always amused me now. Now Xfinity has

00:33:15   their like cell phone looking stores. But back in the early

00:33:18   2000s, they had bulletproof glass. And I always joked that

00:33:21   even the DMV doesn't have bulletproof glass, which is how

00:33:24   much we hated our cable companies. Because there were

00:33:26   times too where I had to move like when I moved up to

00:33:29   Massachusetts and for two years back 20 years ago, I had to get

00:33:33   new cable service. I wasn't just moving across town in

00:33:36   Philadelphia and I could take my cable box. I had to go down

00:33:38   there and so you had to return one and then you had to go pick

00:33:41   up another one right at another place, which was also full of

00:33:45   bulletproof glass. And one of those, what do you even call it

00:33:48   like a lazy Susan? So where they can rotate that you can

00:33:51   put down your box and then they can rotate it under the glass.

00:33:54   Right. But that it was still a protective layer of bulletproof

00:33:56   glass between them at all times.

00:33:59   Basically is like a lazy side. Like you see that at really bad

00:34:01   convenience stores and at the cable company.

00:34:03   But you know, and they talk about it in the streaming world

00:34:08   churn, right? That people, they'll watch their face and

00:34:11   that maybe this has come back to bite Netflix now that the

00:34:15   overall world is way more competitive and that Netflix is

00:34:19   hey, we don't suffer churn was hubris fueled by the era where

00:34:25   Netflix was so dominant.

00:34:27   And then, yeah, there weren't so many other options.

00:34:30   Right. And now that there's Disney Plus and HBO as a very

00:34:33   good service and people are like, you know what? I'm done

00:34:36   with Stranger Things and they thank you Netflix for releasing

00:34:39   it all at the same time.

00:34:40   All at once. Yeah.

00:34:41   So I watched the whole season in 10 days and now I'll just

00:34:45   turn off my Netflix subscription until you come out with

00:34:47   something else I want to watch.

00:34:49   It's, it's just a different mindset to me. Anyway, I thought

00:34:53   it was interesting. I thought the play on sports gave us an

00:34:55   excuse to nerd out on sports.

00:34:57   Sure, absolutely.

00:34:58   Rogers Hornsby was 424 in 1924.

00:35:02   Okay, so you had the you had the you had the it matched the

00:35:05   year, but it was it was four years later than you thought.

00:35:07   Thank you.

00:35:08   He was not the MVP that year.

00:35:10   No, who was not sure who was and let's see if I can Dazie

00:35:13   Vance, who I don't never heard of.

00:35:15   Never, nor, nor have I, but you know, I was a pitcher 262

00:35:19   strikeouts. Okay.

00:35:20   You have to admit great baseball name.

00:35:22   It's true. It's true.

00:35:24   All right, let me speak in a commercials and not skipping.

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00:37:41   Did you get the iPhone 14?

00:37:44   I've got it. I got the Pro right in front of me.

00:37:47   Which color did you get?

00:37:48   It was, what is it? The, who's it? The deep purple.

00:37:51   Deep purple.

00:37:52   But it's in a case. So I got myself a nice, I usually get

00:37:56   like a gray or a black case and I got myself a nice blue case.

00:37:59   And that's so to me, this phone is blue. Last year's phone

00:38:01   was blue in a black case. So I never saw the blues.

00:38:04   It occurs to me for the first time. I didn't put it in my

00:38:07   review, but it occurred to me and it's very obvious. And I

00:38:10   guess I'd thought of it, but I just had never thought about

00:38:13   the obviousness of it, that what Apple does with these, with

00:38:18   the iPhones every year is they come out with limited edition

00:38:21   colors. They don't call them limited edition colors, but if

00:38:25   tradition serves, it doesn't matter how popular deep purple

00:38:29   is. They didn't have deep purple.

00:38:30   It won't be there next year.

00:38:31   It won't be there next year. It wasn't there last year. And

00:38:33   no matter how much you liked the, I forget what they called

00:38:36   the blue one last year.

00:38:38   Well, was it Pacific blue?

00:38:39   Yeah, something like that. And then there was a green one a

00:38:42   couple of years ago that was sort of like a Boba Fett

00:38:45   colored green sort of. They're all, as I joked in my review

00:38:49   and as my wife Amy put in her entire iPhone review, which she

00:38:52   tweeted out, they're all just different colors of gray.

00:38:56   That's it. That's the review.

00:38:57   Sierra blue. Sierra blue.

00:39:00   Sierra blue.

00:39:01   But it is interesting. I never really thought about them as

00:39:04   they don't call them limited edition colors, but they clearly

00:39:07   are. And what I guess clarified it for me is I sort of really

00:39:12   gave it an extra thought this year in my review about the

00:39:16   fact that the iPhone 14 Pro models don't stick around for

00:39:22   additional years. So it's not just that they're not going to

00:39:24   come out with an iPhone 15 in deep purple next year.

00:39:29   The you won't be able to even buy this one, right?

00:39:32   The 14 Pros go away and it's it somehow it snuck up on me over

00:39:39   the years because in the early years of the iPhone, that was

00:39:42   what they did is they would keep the 3G when the 3GS came out

00:39:47   and sell it at a lower rate and then keep the 3GS at a lower

00:39:51   price when the iPhone 4 come out, so on and so forth with one

00:39:55   new iPhone per year and the older ones sticking around. And

00:39:59   they still do that with the non pro ones, right? You could

00:40:02   still buy. I think they're still selling the iPhone 11 or

00:40:05   maybe they've gone up to 12, but I think you can go. But even

00:40:08   though Apple might not list the iPhone 11, you can go to like

00:40:11   Verizon or AT&T and still buy.

00:40:14   Still get one.

00:40:14   Yeah, but you can't buy the iPhone 13 Pro anymore. Now there

00:40:19   might be stock in the in the channel or something like that,

00:40:21   but at this point, not for long, not for long.

00:40:24   They so that's it's interesting to me from at a consumer level

00:40:29   that no matter how popular a color is, that's it. This is

00:40:32   your one chance and only to get it.

00:40:34   Well, I guess the I guess the question is, is that true? I

00:40:37   mean, yes, it's been true with this green with the blue and

00:40:39   probably with the purple. But like if they had one that

00:40:42   suddenly that was the one that sold so much more. Do you

00:40:44   think I mean, I don't think that they would be reluctant to

00:40:48   keep the color around if they discovered a color that that

00:40:51   people loved. I think they'd probably keep it around.

00:40:53   Yeah, and that's probably the sort of thing that they could

00:40:56   do on relatively short notice, right? Like most I like to,

00:41:03   and I've heard this from so many people at Apple, but most

00:41:06   of the hardware decisions in like a new iPhone, like

00:41:09   were made a year or two, two or two years ago, at least that

00:41:12   much, if not more, right?

00:41:13   No, no, but john, I read these rumors sites, and I hear that

00:41:16   Apple at the last second decided to drop the fourth camera

00:41:20   on the new iPhone.

00:41:22   Yeah, that doesn't happen. But I would imagine that that ad

00:41:25   saying we should go back, we should keep Deep Purple for a

00:41:28   second year is something that they could decide.

00:41:30   They could actually do.

00:41:31   Right. And they could probably if it's if it is going to be

00:41:34   that popular, they probably know it already from the initial

00:41:38   sales, they could already get the gears turning to coat the

00:41:42   steel bands with the Deep Purple and produce more of the

00:41:45   Deep Purple back glass.

00:41:48   Well, wait, so there's an interesting question briefly,

00:41:50   let's say the hardware decisions for the iPhone 16 Pro are

00:41:54   already made or about to be made. But when does next year's

00:41:57   phone, the 15 Pro, when does production on that actually

00:42:00   start? That's like a month or two, right?

00:42:02   Yeah, because because high level production seems like

00:42:06   something that really only gears up right at the very end.

00:42:09   Yes. And I would think that the colors would be much closer

00:42:13   to that than to putting another camera or whatever.

00:42:15   Yeah, so I don't know, it might be too late. It really might

00:42:18   even the color.

00:42:18   No, no, I'm saying I think they've got enough time.

00:42:20   Yeah, I'm saying with you that that in in June of next year,

00:42:23   that's when they need to say these are the colors.

00:42:25   Yeah, probably, I would bet because and I'm sure they do

00:42:28   testing with the actual colors to get them to come out right.

00:42:32   And then it it must be so fast. It's like one of the great

00:42:36   secrets of the whole Apple world that they just deliberately

00:42:39   don't ever shine a light on is how many engineers at Apple

00:42:45   and designers are spending so much time so long in advance

00:42:49   just to make sure that the deep purple steel looks the right

00:42:53   color issue, right? And then there's somebody else. I don't

00:42:56   know, it could be it might be this one person does all the

00:42:58   colors. I don't know. But maybe there's somebody else who's in

00:43:01   charge of making sure space black is as black as we think

00:43:05   it's going to be, along with all of the other engineering

00:43:08   issues of, okay, this seems right, these things are passing

00:43:11   their quality tests. And then somebody over there is like,

00:43:15   and they're like, okay, so we're gonna say go and you're

00:43:18   gonna start making like 3 million of these a week. And

00:43:21   they're like, yeah, yes. Yes, the purple will work. Well, and

00:43:25   as you said, they've changed every year. So that I mean,

00:43:28   maybe the process is not as complicated as we think, or

00:43:31   maybe changing the color is not that complicated. But yeah,

00:43:34   they they have not stuck with one. So they're obviously doing

00:43:37   well in terms of well, because because what what phone was it

00:43:41   that the white took forever and then wasn't very good? And was

00:43:44   that the five or what? No, I forget or, or was it the four?

00:43:50   I think might have been the iPhone for the white iPhone four

00:43:53   was was where they did they announce it on day one, but yeah,

00:43:56   coming next year, and then next year took forever.

00:43:59   Yeah, I think what happened in the iPhone

00:44:03   for was the last one that was introduced in June, and was the

00:44:10   antenna gate phone. And they announced it probably at WWDC.

00:44:14   And Steve Jobs did the introduction was one of the last

00:44:18   phones might have been the last phone he introduced. Yeah, it

00:44:21   was the four and it was 2011. So yeah, yeah. And it was a

00:44:26   weird, it was the most unusual cycle in all of iPhone history,

00:44:30   because it was the one where they decided we're going to

00:44:33   shift it to the fall. But they also came off off cycle with the

00:44:37   Verizon, Verizon iPhone, right, which was like February of the

00:44:41   next year. And then I think the white iPhone fours started

00:44:45   actually shipping in like May. You know, I'm sorry, I just I

00:44:49   just pulled this up. So June was when they introduced the four,

00:44:52   they said we're gonna have black and white. And the white

00:44:55   just did not show up until April of 2011. The end of April.

00:45:00   Right, which shows like that, like something obviously got

00:45:03   screwed up internally for that to happen. Yeah. And I remember

00:45:07   being, I think at the antenna gate event, which would have

00:45:13   been earlier than this. Oh, way earlier. Yeah, much earlier.

00:45:16   But it was still at a time where Apple was sort of mum on the

00:45:19   fact that white hadn't shipped. And I believe it was a source of

00:45:23   marital stress in my household. Because because we've always

00:45:28   been everybody gets a new iPhone every year, we'll trade the old

00:45:32   one in or I keep them on a shelf and Amy trades them in. But she

00:45:35   wanted to get the white one. So she ordered the white one, but

00:45:38   so she didn't didn't come. I mean, I did. It wasn't like they

00:45:41   held her money. It was like, she was planning on it because I

00:45:45   don't even think you can order it. I think it was just it just

00:45:47   didn't exist. Yeah, it just didn't exist. But I remember

00:45:50   when I went out to Cupertino to to the old town hall, band box

00:45:55   auditorium. I mean, it's being generous calling it an ad

00:45:58   auditorium, but and being on campus and seeing Apple

00:46:02   employees walking around with white iPhone. They had the white

00:46:05   ones. Yeah, it was like, whoa, what the hell? I was like, Oh,

00:46:08   we're at Apple. So yes, there are people there were people at

00:46:12   Apple who had them, but they were not on sale. I don't think

00:46:15   we ever got a straight answer, of course, because Apple doesn't

00:46:19   want to explain what was clearly an embarrassing, technical

00:46:24   issue with the production of the way I forget what it was, or

00:46:27   what the rumors were if it was like that in production, it was

00:46:31   yellowing or if it was somehow the white back cracked easier or

00:46:37   something because that was when the first one that had a glass

00:46:39   back. So it wasn't plastic. If it had been plastic, I'm sure it

00:46:42   would have been no issue. But something about making the

00:46:44   white plastic or the white glass was a hold up. Very strange.

00:46:50   Well, the other thing I wanted to say, though, and I do find

00:46:52   all this talk about color. It's obviously the color of the

00:46:55   iPhones is always featured in the ads, the billboards. I think

00:46:59   they've made commercials to mention the color of the year,

00:47:02   like Deep Purple this year. And what do 98% of people do as soon

00:47:06   as they get their iPhone? Put it in a case. Do you think I'm

00:47:10   right? What percentage of iPhone users do you believe?

00:47:13   Yeah, we've talked about this. I don't know a number, but

00:47:17   certainly more than 75%. And I would not be surprised if it's

00:47:21   over 90%, 95%, close to 98%. It's the vast, vast majority.

00:47:26   And my sort of trivia question for people or thinking question

00:47:30   for people is, can you think of another product that you buy

00:47:33   and then immediately sort of transform? Like, I mean, it

00:47:37   speaks to the, as durable as modern smartphones are, it

00:47:41   speaks to the lack of durability. Like, Apple could

00:47:43   design a phone that did not require a case. Like most

00:47:47   people don't put a case on their Apple Watch and their Apple

00:47:49   Watch Ultra, which is designed to take hammer blows. But the

00:47:53   phone is still left fragile enough that everyone puts a case

00:47:57   on it. And I can't think of another product like that, then

00:48:01   besides smartphones, not just the iPhone. I think it's most

00:48:03   smartphones. And I think at this point, it's too ingrained.

00:48:07   I think that they really could. Like, I don't even know that I

00:48:09   really need this case as much. Yeah. And over the summer, they

00:48:14   had an ad campaign. Actually, I think it was for the Watch. But

00:48:17   it was curious because there were rumors that what we now

00:48:20   know is the Ultra was coming out. But Apple made a

00:48:22   commercial over the summer for the Series 7 regular watches,

00:48:25   showing them getting hit with soccer balls and other action

00:48:29   type sports and swimming and just sort of emphasized like,

00:48:33   hey, your Apple Watch, you can actually wear it. It's tough.

00:48:36   It can handle this. Yeah. I see a fair number of people,

00:48:39   though, with, I don't know if you'd call it some kind of

00:48:42   wrapper on their Apple Watch. Of course, there definitely are

00:48:45   bumpers and there are cases for them. But it's not, I don't know

00:48:49   what percentage, but it's way, way, way lower than phones.

00:48:52   If it's double digits, I'd be surprised. I think I almost

00:48:56   exclusively see naked Apple Watches, and I almost

00:48:58   exclusively see cased phones. Right. And you do see people,

00:49:02   like there are cases for iPads, but I typically only see them

00:49:06   or notice them for children, for the obvious reason. Like an

00:49:10   actual like hard case. Right. Like a hard case. And otherwise

00:49:14   with iPads, people just buy the magnetic covers and they sort

00:49:17   of, there's a little bit of protection there. And yeah.

00:49:20   Yeah. Like the cover gives you scratch protection, which is

00:49:23   what I care most about with an iPad. Cause I'm going to just,

00:49:25   at some point I'm going to put it in a bag and carry it around

00:49:28   with other stuff. And I don't want the glass getting

00:49:30   scratched, but you don't really need a case. And there are

00:49:33   other products like you could, I guess somebody maybe for like

00:49:37   the education market, there are cases for Mac books. I don't

00:49:42   know. But at this point, I don't know what they could do with

00:49:45   the phone. I think that they could just beg people. They

00:49:50   could make it an entire hour of the September event next year,

00:49:54   emphasizing how durable the new iPhone 15 Pro is. And that you

00:49:58   can hit it with a hockey puck and you can drop it and you

00:50:02   could do this and you could do that and it won't scratch. And

00:50:05   I think everybody would just nod their head and then they'd

00:50:07   buy it. And then go buy a case. I don't know. I mean, I agree

00:50:12   I think it's very ingrained and I didn't wait to get the phone

00:50:16   to get a case. I got a case and came the same day the phone

00:50:19   did. But if they, I don't know, if they talked up the display

00:50:23   being so shatterproof the same way like the Ultra Watch is, I

00:50:29   might at least be willing to consider it. I'd like to not

00:50:33   need a case or not feel like I need a case. I actually, I don't

00:50:36   even remember what happened. I actually, it was on the trip to

00:50:41   Cupertino to go to the event earlier this month. And somehow

00:50:48   I noticed that the back of my personal iPhone 13 Pro, the back

00:50:52   had now had a crack in the corner. And I didn't remember

00:50:55   dropping my phone. I don't know when it happened. And it's like

00:50:58   somehow my phone knows that I'm here to pick up a review.

00:51:02   Right. You're getting a brand new phone. So whatever. Right.

00:51:05   And it like spitefully cracked itself or something. But it was

00:51:08   on the back.

00:51:09   That was, that's what I've always thought about. Apple

00:51:11   executives, you famously asked if any of them used a case and

00:51:15   they all held up their phones naked.

00:51:17   Right.

00:51:17   And it's like, great, you've got a barrel of iPhones. You can

00:51:20   just grab a brand new one. The average person, and honestly,

00:51:24   the repairs on it are not terribly bad for like getting, I

00:51:28   think you've done it once or twice, right? You've three

00:51:31   times repaired. And it's what, like 50 bucks?

00:51:34   Oh, no, it varies. And apparently the back is actually

00:51:39   super expensive. This is putting this ties into the news that

00:51:42   came out last week from iFixit's teardown that the regular

00:51:45   non-pro iPhone 14s have an all new internal engineering design.

00:51:51   That's easier to repair, right?

00:51:53   Because there's two ways to get to it. Right. You could get to,

00:51:58   if you just need to fix the screen, you could take off the

00:52:00   screen. Whereas I believe it's the case that for the last few

00:52:03   years, the only way to get anywhere is to go through the

00:52:07   screen. And so if like your camera's broken or the back glass

00:52:10   is broken so bad, you want to get it fixed. It literally has

00:52:15   to be almost completely disassembled.

00:52:17   I see.

00:52:17   It's like a $500 or $400 repair for like the pro model. It's

00:52:21   shockingly close to half the price of the phone. Whereas the

00:52:25   display is cheaper, but the display is not that much cheaper

00:52:28   because they're expensive displays, especially if you get

00:52:30   the pro model. But that's a big change for the non-pro iPhone

00:52:34   14, but the pros still have the same repairability issues.

00:52:38   No. So I don't buy, I don't typically use a case. I buy a

00:52:42   couple of cases a year. Last year I went overboard. I bought

00:52:45   way too many cases for somebody who doesn't use a case. And I

00:52:48   had it in my head that it was justified because I would either

00:52:51   write a big article talking about, here's my favorite as a

00:52:54   non-case iPhone person who occasionally uses one like on

00:52:58   vacation to get a better grip in a Disney world or something

00:53:04   like that. And it might be rainy, it might be slippery. I

00:53:07   want to put my phone in a case to give it more grip. Anyway,

00:53:11   it's just all very unusual to me that we obsess about these

00:53:13   iPhone callers. Apple clearly obsesses about them. They make

00:53:16   them the focus of their marketing campaigns and

00:53:19   billboards. And I think it's the reason why people, so many

00:53:24   people, seemingly 95% of people instantly put their brand new

00:53:28   iPhones into a case as soon as they get them is they want to

00:53:31   protect them because they like the way they look naked but

00:53:35   never actually enjoy it. And it's, I mentioned...

00:53:38   Never actually get to see it.

00:53:40   Until they take it out of the case, when they send it back,

00:53:43   when they get a trade-in in two years or three years.

00:53:45   And look how nice it looks then.

00:53:47   Right. I just find it endlessly fascinating that people care

00:53:52   about the color and the case and the condition of their iPhone,

00:53:55   but never actually enjoy it.

00:53:57   Well, but that's... So you asked what color I got. I got the

00:54:00   purple because I thought if I don't like it, I'm not going to

00:54:02   see it. And if I do like it, well, I'm not going to see it.

00:54:05   So I don't know.

00:54:05   You do see it through the buttons though, because you like

00:54:07   to buy a case where the buttons... The case doesn't have

00:54:10   buttons. You actually poke through.

00:54:12   That's right. That's right.

00:54:13   So you do get to see your deep purple buttons.

00:54:16   I do see some buttons. They mostly look gray. Amy is

00:54:20   correct. Looking at the cameras on the back, there's like a

00:54:24   hint of purple. It's mostly gray. The other thing I also

00:54:28   find interesting, I probably say this every year too, is

00:54:31   that I do find it interesting too, that I see almost nobody

00:54:34   with Apple branded cases.

00:54:36   You see, I see... I see a decent amount of those.

00:54:40   I shouldn't say none, but you don't see that many, in my

00:54:44   opinion. I don't know. I don't know if it's because...

00:54:48   There are so many cases. The Apple ones are fairly

00:54:51   expensive. You can get a cheaper case.

00:54:53   Right.

00:54:53   That if you don't care that much about the aesthetics, a

00:54:56   $20 case is just as good as a $50 case. It might even be

00:54:59   better in terms of protection. So yeah, I feel like those

00:55:02   cases are sold... They're certainly sold at a premium, an

00:55:05   Apple premium. And so yeah, I'm not surprised they're not

00:55:08   super popular.

00:55:09   Well, it's just endlessly fascinating, as I said. All

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00:55:43   Yeah, no, that one's right.

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00:57:14   talk show. Here's a camera. I want to talk before we leave

00:57:17   the iPhone 14. I wanted to talk about a camera issue. I

00:57:20   sort of punted, and I've been doing this for years now,

00:57:23   where it's I don't feel like I'm an expert photographer,

00:57:26   and I feel like the people who are better than me at

00:57:29   photography can do better, let them focus on the camera

00:57:33   parts of their review. Camera-focused reviews. Yeah.

00:57:36   And the curious thing, I mean, not curious, but the most

00:57:39   interesting thing about the iPhone 14 Pro camera this

00:57:41   year is that the quote-unquote main camera, which is for

00:57:44   both 1x and 2x, now has a 48 megapixel sensor. And it's

00:57:49   using something called pixel binning to treat each little

00:57:53   square, two by two square of four pixels as one pixel to

00:57:57   make a 12 megapixel image. And by using four real pixels as

00:58:02   one virtual pixel, it's a way to have an effective 12 megapixel

00:58:09   sensor that greatly reduces noise. And everybody seems to

00:58:14   agree, you take a picture with the new iPhones in low light,

00:58:18   and you look at for the noise, you see a lot less noise. And

00:58:21   that's great. But it is technically a 48 megapixel

00:58:24   sensor. And the only way to shoot 48 megapixel images is to

00:58:29   shoot the ProRAW format. And I did play with this in my

00:58:35   review before I wrote. I'd forget if I even mentioned it.

00:58:37   But when you do shoot ProRAW, you get the option. Do you want

00:58:41   to shoot RAW 48 megapixel or RAW 12 megapixel? And you might

00:58:47   think...

00:58:47   Okay, so it's like the video where you can do 30, 60 FPS,

00:58:51   that sort of thing.

00:58:52   Right. Or, you know, like 1080, maybe a better comparison is

00:58:55   1080p to 4K, because it's just resolution.

00:58:57   Right.

00:58:58   Well, why would you want to do that if you're shooting RAW?

00:59:00   Don't you just want the RAW sensor data? And the answer is

00:59:04   that it takes about a second for each shot. If you're shooting

00:59:08   the 48 megapixel RAW images, you press the center, the

00:59:13   shutter in the iPhone camera app, and it's...

00:59:16   Yeah, I don't know if it's a full second, but it feels like

00:59:18   a second before it's available to shoot the next picture. So

00:59:21   that's obviously suboptimal. And that's why they offer, even

00:59:26   if you do want to shoot RAW to do all your development and

00:59:29   editing with the RAW image, you could still shoot it as 12

00:59:32   megapixels. But anyway, what I've seen in the reviews, Jason

00:59:36   Snell's review, Mark Spoonhour at Tom's Guide had a good

00:59:39   review and a lot of side-by-side images is, boy, there is a

00:59:43   lot of... Your intuitive sense, and Apple's marketing, I think

00:59:46   rightly so, has been away from megapixel wars for years and

00:59:50   years, and that megapixels as a primary concern for somebody

00:59:56   buying a new camera or buying a phone to use as a camera is

01:00:01   probably not the biggest concern you have. There's so many

01:00:03   other factors in image quality. But all that said, still more

01:00:07   megapixels are better, right? At some level. And it does seem

01:00:12   like there's a lot of detail that the 48 megapixel sensor is

01:00:15   capable of in a lot of light, like so that pixel binning to

01:00:20   treat the 48 megapixel sensor as a 12 megapixel sensor really

01:00:24   makes the most sense in low light or even medium light. But

01:00:28   with a lot of light like outdoors, there's plenty of light

01:00:31   to just treat it as a 48 megapixel sensor. And the one

01:00:35   thing you don't have the option of is to treat it as a 48

01:00:39   megapixel sensor shooting JPEG. You can shoot raw and get 48

01:00:43   megapixel, but now you've got these big, huge 80 megabyte

01:00:47   files each image, and you have to develop it manually like

01:00:51   whatever software you use to edit one that it uses to edit

01:00:55   raw images. Wouldn't it be nicer if you could just say, "Ah,

01:00:58   I don't want to shoot raw, but I want the 48 megapixel sensor

01:01:02   size when there's plenty of light and just let me shoot

01:01:04   JPEG or the HEIC." Do we pronounce that? Do you know? Or

01:01:10   do we spell it out like HEIC? I always forget it, too. JPEG,

01:01:14   I'll never forget, but somehow HEIC, I'm always like, "Is it

01:01:19   HECI, HEIC?" Whatever it is.

01:01:21   Yeah, I see that frequently, and it still hasn't stuck in my

01:01:25   head. JPEG's been around forever.

01:01:26   Right. So when I say JPEG, I mean compressed images, and

01:01:30   I'll just use it as shorthand for all of them. There is no

01:01:32   option. You can't dig into settings and say, "I would like

01:01:35   to shoot JPEG and have the iPhone do the development of the

01:01:39   raw image for me." And because it'll be compressed, I would

01:01:42   guess that that means you could shoot it 48 megapixels, and it

01:01:48   wouldn't take a second for each shot because it's not moving

01:01:51   that huge raw image. It's doing the processing before it moves

01:01:55   it over to storage, but they don't offer that option. And I

01:01:59   think I see why, but I'm just curious if you have thoughts on

01:02:02   it. As someone who designs software, sometimes you don't

01:02:08   want to give users an option because you just don't want

01:02:12   them to shoot themselves in the foot. Right?

01:02:14   Right. I mean, that's... So I'm just fiddling with this right

01:02:18   now as you were talking about it. And when you take a raw in

01:02:22   48 megapixels, it puts a little spinner on the screen, and it's

01:02:27   over a full second before that's done, before you can take

01:02:30   another photo. But I'm looking at all the controls, and

01:02:32   there's... because there's controls for video too, where you

01:02:35   can adjust 120 FPS versus 240 for slow-mo. But I don't think...

01:02:40   and they all have these little, what I call tiny text, under

01:02:43   the control. And it says a minute of video will be

01:02:45   approximately 45 megs for this, 65 megs for this, 100 megs for

01:02:48   this. But so you were talking about moving the file. Do you

01:02:50   think that's what the delay is? Or is it the processing?

01:02:53   I don't know. I don't know enough about it. But it seems to

01:02:57   me like it must... because at some level, some... it is using

01:03:00   the whole 48 megapixel sensor to shoot the 12 megapixel images.

01:03:04   So at some point, I'm not quite sure. Maybe it's possible that

01:03:10   even if they allowed you to shoot 48 megapixel JPEGs, that it

01:03:13   would still take a second because that's not where the...

01:03:17   this takes a long time comes into play. I don't know.

01:03:22   But they don't even make it an option.

01:03:25   Right. My thought would be that if you're shooting in RAW, you

01:03:29   have to go turn the RAW option on. So that's not even visible

01:03:33   by default. If you're doing that, you either have decided to

01:03:37   screw around with this or you know what you're doing. And so

01:03:39   shooting in that 48, it being a little slow, you'll be...

01:03:43   that'll be acceptable to you. Whereas if you're just someone

01:03:45   shooting normal camera shots, I think that delay would just be

01:03:49   too much. And that'd be my guess for why it's not enabled.

01:03:52   Yeah. But it's like you don't want to... and I know that's...

01:03:55   there are times when Apple makes the mistake of seemingly

01:03:59   babying users too much. I don't think this is a case. I think

01:04:04   this is a case where they've... a situation where they're

01:04:08   enabling as much as they can for people who really do want to

01:04:13   use their phones as pro cameras, which is what RAW shooting

01:04:17   is. Right? You need some kind of professional photo editing

01:04:20   software to develop them properly. So they're making it

01:04:24   possible, but they really don't want someone to accidentally

01:04:29   think that, "Oh, I've got the 512 gigabyte version. I can

01:04:35   shoot... I'm not worried about the image size. I'll shoot 48

01:04:38   because 48 sounds four times bigger than 12."

01:04:41   Sounds so much better. Sure.

01:04:42   Right. And then all of a sudden, they're in a situation

01:04:46   where, "Yeah, that would work great in lots of light, but it

01:04:50   doesn't work great. It doesn't work well at all in low light."

01:04:54   And now the whole point of the pixel binning strategy of

01:04:57   shooting 12 megapixel images on a 48 megapixel sensor goes out

01:05:00   the door if the user just has like a yellow button at the top

01:05:04   of the camera button to say 48. And they leave it on in the

01:05:09   dark because it's a manual control that they've enabled.

01:05:13   And it's... I could just see how this is a very complicated

01:05:16   dance for Apple internally to sort of whiteboard out the,

01:05:21   "Okay, these are the options we will let people choose. These

01:05:25   are the options we won't let them choose. And then these

01:05:28   will be the defaults." I think if you step back, it's more...

01:05:32   You're absolutely right. But it doesn't matter that it's a 48

01:05:36   megapixel camera. It's just we have... The iPhone 14 Pro now

01:05:40   has a better camera. And that's what most people need to know,

01:05:43   that every year the camera gets better. And this year it's

01:05:45   particularly better because of this pixel binning.

01:05:47   And I think most people won't even be aware that, "Oh, there's

01:05:52   a way that this could shoot a much bigger 48 megapixel image,

01:05:56   but it's not letting me do it." I think almost nobody will be

01:05:58   aware of it. It's definitely a wonky kind of... You'll read

01:06:01   about it in tech reviews, but not when you're using it. So to

01:06:03   me, it definitely seems like the right call. If there's a

01:06:05   downside... If there are these downsides, which it seems like

01:06:08   there would be, then just don't even allow this option because

01:06:10   most people aren't going to need it. Almost no one's going to

01:06:13   need it. The people that do want it can do it in RAW. You've

01:06:16   covered everybody who can take advantage of this pretty well.

01:06:18   Yeah, I would say so. And it kind of exemplifies the sort of

01:06:23   feature that Apple will dive kind of deep into during the

01:06:29   keynote, but then they're never going to mention it in their

01:06:32   advertising. In the ads, yeah. They're not going to have these

01:06:34   48 megapixel sensor ads. And then people are like, "Why am I

01:06:39   still shooting 12 megapixel images?" And Apple is like,

01:06:43   "Okay, we're going to need to make a longer ad." No, it's like,

01:06:46   no. You don't want to explain this to people. I think you're

01:06:49   right. Basically, you just open the camera app, you hit the

01:06:52   shutter, you're going to get better looking pictures.

01:06:54   Than you did last year or two years ago. Exactly.

01:06:56   And the information is out there if you really want to dig into

01:06:59   it and find out more. Yeah. So one of the open questions that

01:07:03   we've, I've had at least, and it seems like a lot of the other

01:07:06   people who reviewed the iPhone 14 Pro didn't, it didn't bother

01:07:10   them or didn't obsess them like me, is, okay, if you've got any

01:07:15   of the other phones, including the new regular iPhone 14s,

01:07:20   brand new, just came out. The 14 Plus isn't even out yet,

01:07:24   right? It comes out next week. Right. Next month. And you don't

01:07:26   have the Dynamic Island. Where do your live activities show

01:07:30   up other than your lock screen? Right. Okay. Everybody, I

01:07:35   understand everybody's phone gets them on the lock screen,

01:07:37   but you're just using your iPhone 14, but there's a live

01:07:40   activity. Where does it show up if you don't have a Dynamic

01:07:42   Island? And the developer documentation before, and I

01:07:47   think it's just one of those things where Apple being Apple

01:07:51   and keeping things secret, and they successfully kept the

01:07:54   Dynamic Island very secret, right? People knew. Absolutely.

01:07:56   Yeah. Nobody knew about it until the announcement. I would say

01:07:59   it's one of the biggest secrets that they've kept under wraps in

01:08:01   recent years. Nobody had any idea. People knew about the

01:08:05   holes that were punched in the display, but everybody just

01:08:08   assumed it would be a permanent oval shape. And I think, well,

01:08:11   how do you keep it secret? You keep things secret by not

01:08:15   telling people, right? That's the, it's the most obvious

01:08:18   thing in the world. You keep a secret by never telling your

01:08:20   secrets, but therefore the developer docs for live

01:08:23   activities were all, I think even to people, some people

01:08:27   inside Apple, they were in the dark about why are we being

01:08:30   cagey about this? There's some obvious questions, but we're

01:08:34   starting to get more answers. And one of them is that the

01:08:38   human interface guidelines now say, having been updated,

01:08:42   having been updated a couple of times, they've been clarified,

01:08:45   but they now say on devices that don't support the Dynamic

01:08:48   Island, the system can display live activity update in a

01:08:52   banner that appears briefly while people view the home

01:08:55   screen or use another app, but only if the app determines

01:08:59   that the update is important enough to interrupt people.

01:09:02   Jared: Which is such a, that, that last clause is so

01:09:05   bizarre to me because like, it's basically saying like, but

01:09:10   only if you think you should. And it's like, well, great.

01:09:14   I'm developing whatever nonsense app that is interrupting

01:09:18   people. I think I should interrupt people.

01:09:21   Pete: Well, I guess, I guess part of it is you're only going

01:09:26   to get live activities when you've asked for them. So like,

01:09:31   if you order food from the DoorDash app and you, I think

01:09:37   you have to, I think, well, maybe not, I guess, or you hail

01:09:40   a ride from Uber, it'll just become a live activity, but

01:09:44   you're the one who hailed the ride, right? So, how frequently

01:09:50   do you want updates about where your driver is who is

01:09:53   delivering your food or is coming by to pick you up to take

01:09:57   you to the airport or whatever? It is the little ambiguous?

01:10:04   Jared: Yeah. Well, and, and so I don't know, like I mentioned

01:10:09   something tangential to this, but they're talking about the,

01:10:12   about putting ads in this space in live activities. And the

01:10:18   language there was even worse. It said, "Avoid using a live

01:10:21   activity to display ads and promotions. Live activities

01:10:24   help people stay informed, so it's important to display only

01:10:27   information that's related to those events or tasks."

01:10:29   Avoid using a live activity to display ads is so wishy-washy.

01:10:34   How about you just say it is forbidden to use a live

01:10:38   activity to display ads?

01:10:39   Pete: Yeah. And then, Nili Patel brought this up on the

01:10:43   last episode of my show and he asked Apple about it and did

01:10:46   not get a straight answer from them. And again, I think it's

01:10:50   like one of those things where like a normal person like me

01:10:54   doesn't even think about putting ads in the dynamic

01:10:57   island. I'm just thinking…

01:10:58   Jared; But that's not the problem.

01:10:59   Pete; I know. The problem is all of the abnormal people who

01:11:03   are in product marketing at various companies and who are

01:11:06   like, "Wait, we have a new area where we can put an ad and

01:11:08   it's always visible no matter what…"

01:11:10   Jared; And it'll pop up. Right, exactly.

01:11:11   Pete; No matter what other app, it's sort of like the holy

01:11:14   grail of counting engagement.

01:11:17   Jared; Right.

01:11:18   Pete; Wait, we can still keep the ad up there even when

01:11:22   they've left our app?

01:11:23   Jared; They've left the app but the ad can stay. Exactly.

01:11:25   So, I mean, obviously, the worst abuses of this, people

01:11:29   will uninstall the app, they'll delete the app, they'll

01:11:32   complain about it, whatever. But I mean, if you look at

01:11:34   notifications, notifications, push notifications on your

01:11:38   phone are not supposed to be used for promotions, for

01:11:40   advertising, whatever. And I haven't looked at what the

01:11:42   language is around that, but they are used that way. And

01:11:47   there are various apps that I have that I either have

01:11:49   turned off notifications or I've deleted because, "Oh,

01:11:52   Lyft will say like, oh, for the next six hours, you can

01:11:56   get 20% off on your next ride." And it's like, I don't

01:11:58   care, I wasn't taking a ride, stop bothering me. But

01:12:02   that's an app where I want the notifications for like,

01:12:04   your driver is three minutes away, so I can't turn off

01:12:07   the notification. Most apps, I just turn off the

01:12:09   notifications, I don't ever let them have the

01:12:11   notifications, and so I don't worry about it. But there's

01:12:13   certainly some where they're abusing this, and it's

01:12:15   something that I don't have enough control over to say,

01:12:18   "Don't show me the scammy ones, only show me the ones

01:12:20   that I need." And both of these things are ambiguous

01:12:23   enough or not restricted enough that I'm concerned

01:12:27   about how this is going to play out.

01:12:29   >> Yeah, and Uber and Lyft both have a lot of pure ads,

01:12:34   not like, "Eh, I'm not sure if this is really an ad or

01:12:36   not." They've got all sorts of stuff in their apps for

01:12:40   ordering food, like all I wanted was a ride to the

01:12:42   airport. But now, you know, while I'm waiting and

01:12:45   checking on where the car is, I'm being told how do I

01:12:48   can order Uber Eats and stuff like that.

01:12:50   >> Get yourself some tacos.

01:12:51   >> And I really don't want that in the dynamic island.

01:12:55   Like, I'm, I love—

01:12:56   >> Live views, yeah.

01:12:57   >> And I said this on the last episode, and I keep

01:13:00   thinking about it. To me, the ride hailing app is on

01:13:05   its way is the, to me, the best example of the dynamic

01:13:10   island I can think of, because whenever they're on

01:13:12   their way to pick me up, it's always a couple more

01:13:15   minutes than they told you it was going to be. It's

01:13:18   like, "Yeah, we'll be there in four minutes." And then

01:13:21   you say, "Okay," and then you double click to pay with

01:13:23   Apple Pay, and then they're like, "Finding you a ride."

01:13:26   >> Yeah, and it spins, and it does a whole bunch of

01:13:29   unnecessary animations to make you think something is

01:13:32   happening.

01:13:32   >> Yep, yep. It'll flip, it'll twist. There's all sorts

01:13:35   of—it's like, "Oh, now it's done." Nope, it's still

01:13:37   looking.

01:13:37   >> We're triangulating. Look at this.

01:13:39   >> And then you find out it's nine minutes, and it's

01:13:42   like—it's still, again, it's like the Louis C.K. bit

01:13:46   about being in an airplane with Wi-Fi and complaining

01:13:50   about it. It's like you just dialed up a nice ride to

01:13:55   go somewhere so you don't need to take your own car

01:13:57   just by poking your fingers at a phone. We're living

01:14:01   in the future. This is great stuff overall. Why complain

01:14:04   about the extra five minutes? But what do I do in those

01:14:07   nine minutes while the car is on its way? I spend time

01:14:10   dicking around on my phone, and then I lose track of

01:14:14   how much time has gone by, and I'm like, "Ooh, I bet the

01:14:19   guy's outside." The dynamic island telling me, "Nope,

01:14:21   they're still four minutes away. They're three minutes

01:14:24   away." That seems like just what the doctor ordered,

01:14:27   and I really do—I look forward to having that always

01:14:30   on screen no matter what else I'm doing with the phone.

01:14:32   For the nine or ten minutes, I'm waiting for them to

01:14:35   show up. But I will find it so annoying if they start

01:14:39   showing me ads for Taco Bell. Your driver driving a

01:14:44   silver Tesla Model 3 is five minutes away, and by the

01:14:50   way, you can get tacos at Taco Bell.

01:14:52   It's a—

01:14:53   Get yourself a Mexican pizza.

01:14:55   Right. So, I guess we'll find out how it plays, but

01:15:00   the more I think about it, the more worried I am that

01:15:05   we're going to see ads up there from some of these.

01:15:07   Or just nonsense in general, yeah.

01:15:09   Yeah, nonsense in general. Maybe you could say, "That's

01:15:12   not technically an ad, but it's also nonsense." But

01:15:15   it's from an app. You definitely want to have

01:15:17   permission to send you this stuff. You can't just

01:15:19   delete it or have it stop sending notifications.

01:15:22   The non-dynamic island story of this, the "What do

01:15:26   people see?" my guess was that it would be more or

01:15:31   less like maps turned by turned directions. And

01:15:34   that's sort of the best experience I can think of.

01:15:37   I think it's that the—if you have turned by

01:15:40   turned directions on your phone and there's some

01:15:43   kind of change, like, "Oh, you're getting—you're

01:15:45   180 feet from where the directions say make a left,"

01:15:48   then it comes back up, and then you make the left,

01:15:51   and the GPS tells you—sees that you did it, and

01:15:54   your next turn isn't for a couple miles, then it

01:15:58   disappears. It disappears. And then it appears

01:16:01   again when it'll say something like, "Not this

01:16:04   light, but two lights from now make a right." That's

01:16:06   pretty much exactly the experience for all of the

01:16:09   live activities. But now you're asking all of these

01:16:13   companies, from sports companies to—I don't know.

01:16:17   I don't know who else is going to use the dynamic

01:16:19   island, but anybody sending sports scores to

01:16:22   determine how often to interrupt you?

01:16:24   **Matt Stauffer** Yep. Like baseball, it's like every

01:16:26   time a run's scored, you can—you should tell me

01:16:28   about it. Football, every time points are scored,

01:16:30   you should tell me about it. But basketball, you

01:16:32   certainly don't want that.

01:16:33   **

01:16:40   **Matt Stauffer** In the live activity, yeah, exactly.

01:16:43   **Matt Stauffer** So, I don't know. We'll see how it goes.

01:16:46   It's like, on the one hand, I still think it's going

01:16:48   to be a great experience overall. I still think

01:16:50   it's—also think it's very, very interesting that

01:16:55   it's a major part of the iOS experience that is,

01:16:58   for this year at least, exclusive to the very

01:17:00   newest pro model phones only. I think it'll turn

01:17:03   out okay, but as we wait for the live activities

01:17:09   APIs to become live and third-party developers

01:17:12   to actually be able to ship apps that use them

01:17:15   so that we can see more of what the dynamic

01:17:18   island can do. On the other hand, it's like,

01:17:20   there's a part of me that's dreading it a little.

01:17:23   **Matt Stauffer** Well, it's interesting because it

01:17:26   is—you talked a bunch about this in your review

01:17:28   of the phone, just how it's new and how it's

01:17:30   different. It is a new UI playground. It's small

01:17:34   relative to the whole screen, but it's a new

01:17:37   paradigm to think about, like, how should my app

01:17:39   interact with this and what should I do with it?

01:17:41   And obviously these guidelines are helpful, but

01:17:44   there's all sorts of different apps that might do

01:17:45   something there, and I can't even envision them

01:17:48   yet, but I'll be very interested to see them. But

01:17:51   yeah, there's certainly also the vague sense of

01:17:53   dread with anything new these days where it's like,

01:17:55   all right, how's somebody going to screw this up

01:17:56   for me?

01:17:57   **Justin Jackson** In a way that I never would

01:17:59   have guessed, right?

01:18:00   **Matt Stauffer** Right, because like you said,

01:18:02   I'm a normal person and I'm not evil.

01:18:04   **Justin Jackson** Right. Like, I'm sitting here

01:18:05   worried about Taco Bell ads from Uber. And meanwhile,

01:18:08   if there's anybody out there from like Uber, the

01:18:11   type of team at Uber who puts these things in

01:18:13   there, they're like, that's the dumbest idea ever.

01:18:15   We've got 20 other...

01:18:16   **Matt Stauffer** That are way worse.

01:18:17   **Justin Jackson** Way worse, but we're going

01:18:18   to make...

01:18:19   **Matt Stauffer** Way more evil than that. Come

01:18:20   on, we can do better than that.

01:18:21   **Justin Jackson** All right, let's take a

01:18:22   break here. We'll move on from the iPhone, unless

01:18:24   you have more on the iPhone. But...

01:18:26   **Matt Stauffer** No, you know, it's a new

01:18:28   iPhone. It looks a lot like the old iPhone. It

01:18:30   seems pretty good. I don't know.

01:18:31   **Justin Jackson** All right, let me take a

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01:20:03   Apple Watch 14, so, or not 14, Apple Watch Ultra

01:20:07   came out since the last episode of the show.

01:20:08   I've yet to see one. You've got one on your wrist

01:20:11   right now, or you've got one?

01:20:13   I've still wearing mine. Haven't taken it off

01:20:16   since the, or still using it as my main watch.

01:20:19   Although I'm curious, I actually should have

01:20:21   maybe tried going back to my regular Series 7

01:20:24   from last year before the show to see if I feel

01:20:26   like it's tiny. But I'm curious, so you haven't

01:20:29   popped into an Apple store to see one yet?

01:20:31   Not yet, no. I'm interested to look at it. Your

01:20:34   review had some good notes on sizing and saying

01:20:37   like the gist of it was that if it looks bad to

01:20:40   you, then don't get it obviously. But if you're

01:20:42   worried that other people are going to think it

01:20:44   looks bad, that they'll think the watch looks bad,

01:20:46   not you. And I think that is very true. But to me,

01:20:49   I have worn the smaller watch size for a long

01:20:51   time. I like the smaller watch size and that

01:20:54   everything that I see makes it look enormous. So

01:20:56   I'm interested to try it on, but I'm not terribly

01:20:58   interested in the product.

01:21:00   Right. And you and I are pals and I've seen you.

01:21:02   You've had a couple other watches over the years.

01:21:05   What was the one you had that was solar powered?

01:21:07   Wasn't it a Seiko?

01:21:08   No, it was kinetic powered. Yeah, yeah. But it

01:21:09   was a Seiko.

01:21:10   Or kinetic powered. But I know you've had other

01:21:12   watches and you're not as big a watch nerd as I

01:21:15   am, but you have some. But in recent years, I

01:21:18   don't know. I can't remember the last time I saw

01:21:19   you without your Apple Watch on. I would say a

01:21:23   devoted Apple Watch user. You're also a fitness

01:21:26   enthusiast. You're a runner. And so the fitness

01:21:28   features play right into that. I don't think,

01:21:31   though, to my knowledge, you don't really do

01:21:34   anything impacty, for lack of a better word. Do

01:21:39   you dive? Well, something that you would say, "Oh,

01:21:42   I need the Ultra because I keep smashing my Apple

01:21:44   Watches."

01:21:45   Right, right, right. No, yeah. I haven't, knock

01:21:48   wood, I haven't broken any of the faces or

01:21:50   anything. I mean, some of the running stuff, I do

01:21:53   longer races where the battery life does play

01:21:56   into it a little bit, or it has to be considered.

01:21:58   Like if you run a marathon, even with the most

01:22:00   recent Apple Watches, you at least need to be

01:22:02   concerned about the battery life and figure out

01:22:04   some ways to alleviate some of the pressures on

01:22:07   it. But yeah, the pitch that they have for doing

01:22:10   a 100-mile race or scuba diving or whatever,

01:22:13   that's, none of that is directly appealing to me

01:22:16   anyway.

01:22:16   Yeah, so the biggest appeal to you would be the

01:22:18   battery life.

01:22:19   Battery life, and yeah, I think so. I think so,

01:22:22   yeah.

01:22:22   Combined with the fact that you can do the

01:22:24   battery life and have more accurate GPS tracking,

01:22:28   right?

01:22:28   The GPS, I saw that that was more accurate, and

01:22:31   I've used the Apple Watch, I've run with it for

01:22:34   seven years now, and I don't know how inaccurate

01:22:38   it is. I know it's not perfect, but when I go out

01:22:40   and I do a six-mile run, if that's 5.9 miles or

01:22:44   if that's 6.1 miles, it doesn't really matter. So

01:22:46   I'm not that concerned with the GPS being super

01:22:50   precise, so.

01:22:51   Yeah, it seems to me, from what I can gather, and

01:22:53   again, Apple, it's one of those things where

01:22:55   they're not going to throw the other Apple watches

01:22:57   under the bus and say, "Yeah, the GPS really kind

01:22:59   of sucks."

01:23:00   So it's always an interesting dance for me to

01:23:06   watch, is how do they say, "This one has much

01:23:09   better GPS tracking, but there's nothing wrong

01:23:12   with the GPS on the other ones."

01:23:13   But everything in the old ones is fine, of

01:23:14   course. Yeah, the ones we're still selling

01:23:16   anyway.

01:23:16   I get the opinion that basically they figured

01:23:20   out that there's a sub-market of runners and

01:23:24   cyclists, and maybe other activities, but who

01:23:28   really, really want the GPS to be precise.

01:23:31   Whether they need it to be or not, I get it.

01:23:34   I get caring about details like that, right?

01:23:37   That it uses Helvetica instead of Ariel or

01:23:40   something that most people would consider

01:23:42   superficial. Who cares? Most people would

01:23:44   think if your run through downtown Boston

01:23:48   makes it look like you cut through a building

01:23:50   at one point around the corner. You know

01:23:52   where you ran if you look back at the track

01:23:54   and you're like, "Oh, that's the time I ran

01:23:56   this way." And that it looks like it cut

01:23:59   through a corner, it doesn't bother you.

01:24:01   Whereas other people, it bothers them. And I

01:24:03   get it, right? And I think also there are

01:24:06   other competing GPS watches that don't have

01:24:10   the problem. And so I can also definitely

01:24:12   see how if you're already wearing something

01:24:14   from Garmin or one of these other companies,

01:24:17   and when you wear that watch and you go on

01:24:20   a bike ride, the GPS is completely accurate,

01:24:23   or as accurate as you think is reasonable

01:24:26   for GPS. And then you've tried an Apple

01:24:28   watch and it's mostly accurate but cuts off

01:24:31   corners around skyscrapers and stuff like

01:24:33   that. That's a hard switch because you're

01:24:36   already used to the one that's more accurate.

01:24:38   It's always hard to go backwards, right?

01:24:41   Once you've switched to something with a

01:24:42   retina display—nobody ever complained about

01:24:44   the retina, the non-retina displays on

01:24:47   MacBook Airs until all the other products—

01:24:49   Steven: Until the other one.

01:24:50   Right, until all their iPhones and iPads

01:24:53   had retina displays. And here's this

01:24:54   MacBook with these giant pixels that didn't

01:24:57   bother you until three years ago, but now

01:24:59   you got used to it. Well, once you're used

01:25:01   to the fine-grain GPS accuracy, seems hard

01:25:04   to go back. The battery life seems to me,

01:25:06   though, like one of the killer features

01:25:09   that might lead if the Apple Watch Ultra

01:25:13   turns into a bigger hit. I don't know, not

01:25:16   that I'm expecting, but maybe then people's—

01:25:19   if it hits the over on the over-under for

01:25:21   what people's gut feeling is for how

01:25:23   popular it'll be, battery life could be

01:25:25   the biggest one because it affects almost

01:25:29   everybody, especially fitness people,

01:25:31   right? Like people who do two-hour

01:25:32   workouts, if you've got the watch tracking

01:25:34   your fitness the whole time, it definitely

01:25:36   takes a hit on the other ones. Whereas

01:25:38   with the Ultra, the difference in battery

01:25:41   life is just—it's hard to—you can list

01:25:45   the numbers, but it's very different in

01:25:47   practice. It's like, wait, I haven't

01:25:48   charged that, so I've been wearing this

01:25:50   other than in the shower for a day or two,

01:25:54   and I haven't charged it, and it's still

01:25:55   at 50 percent? That doesn't—it like

01:25:58   totally breaks my mind with how I think

01:26:00   of an Apple Watch. But the thing to me is

01:26:03   that—so I used to wear a non-smartwatch,

01:26:07   and I didn't have to charge it at all,

01:26:08   literally walking around charged it, and

01:26:10   so I never took it off, I didn't think

01:26:12   about it, whatever. I had a pebble for a

01:26:14   little while, and I can't remember, I

01:26:16   think I had to charge that like once a

01:26:18   week, maybe every three or four days. But

01:26:19   when I got the Apple Watch, every night I

01:26:21   had to take it off, I had to charge it,

01:26:23   and that just became the routine. And so

01:26:25   the thing for me is that if the Apple

01:26:28   Watch lasted two days instead of one day,

01:26:30   it really wouldn't do me any good, because

01:26:33   I'm still just gonna—I either have to

01:26:35   charge it every other day, which is a

01:26:36   weird schedule, or I'm just gonna throw

01:26:38   it on the charger every night, and I'm

01:26:39   never gonna get below 50 percent. So for

01:26:42   an actual activity, if you're out there

01:26:44   doing an ultra marathon, you're running

01:26:45   100 miles, and you need that battery to

01:26:48   last that whole time, it makes perfect

01:26:51   sense. But in terms of like day-to-day

01:26:52   usage, my watch is now two-plus years

01:26:56   old, and I usually run in the morning, and

01:26:58   I'll play tennis at night or something

01:26:59   like that, and either I don't have to

01:27:02   charge it at all, or I'll throw it on the

01:27:03   charger for a few minutes during the day.

01:27:05   But it's not something where, like, when I

01:27:07   got it, it was certainly good for the

01:27:08   entire day, and I just charged it every

01:27:10   night, and I never thought about it. So a

01:27:12   little bit more battery, even if it's an

01:27:14   a whole, even if it's 100 percent more

01:27:16   battery, to me wouldn't really change the

01:27:17   way I wore it. So I find that interesting

01:27:20   that, like, some of the garments they talk

01:27:22   about literally weeks of using this,

01:27:25   actively using it, without needing to

01:27:27   charge it, and that is, then you change the

01:27:29   way you use it entirely. But an extra day

01:27:32   doesn't really do anything for me.

01:27:33   [

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02:05:03   had the idea and you thought maybe we should try saying the word hijack and make it a shape

02:05:07   of that and then you do it and the waveform for the word hijack looks stupid. You're

02:05:12   like, ah, we need a better word. But it's fun that the word actually looks good.

02:05:15   John "Slick" Baum: Right, right. Then we got to find another word.

02:05:17   Dave Asprey So, before, the one thing I wanted to come

02:05:20   back to was that we were talking about subscriptions earlier. And there was a stat in your write-up

02:05:25   about the 20 years. We've shipped an astonishing 898 software releases since 2002 with 8,000

02:05:33   888 of those being free updates. That's 98.9%. So, did we talk? I forget. Did we talk about

02:05:40   this the last time you were on the show? The subscription pricing trend in India?

02:05:45   John "Slick" Baum I mean, I've talked about this for years

02:05:47   at this point. So, it's possible, but…

02:05:49   Dave Well, podcasts are meant to repeat yourself.

02:05:51   That means you've only had 10 paid upgrades in 20 years? I mean, somehow, if not, I need

02:05:58   to go back to basic arithmetic class.

02:06:01   John "Slick" Baum Work on your math.

02:06:02   Dave But that's sort of… I mean, I know that

02:06:06   that's… I know Rogue Amoeba, and I've been friends with you for a long time and

02:06:09   following you, became aware of you very early in the Daring Fireball era. And I've used

02:06:16   your products. So, I know that paid upgrades are few and far between, but that's fewer

02:06:22   and further between than I would have thought for a successful, continually thriving software

02:06:30   concern.

02:06:31   John The fact that we're only now at the 20th anniversary

02:06:34   talking about AudioHijack 4, right? There's a lot of other apps' gain and version numbers

02:06:41   are at a higher rate than getting to 4 in 20 years.

02:06:47   Dave Well, so that I can… AudioHijack Pro 2 lasted

02:06:53   for… I was just talking about this. It lasted for 11 years, and like 2.5 really should have

02:06:59   been 3. And I think like 2.7 also had a major feature or two that could have made it version

02:07:05   3 or version 4. So, we were definitely a little stingy, I think, with version numbers, in

02:07:10   part because we had the idea that we've pretty much followed. There may be one or two exceptions,

02:07:15   but basically if it gets a new version number, that will be a paid upgrade. And so, our version

02:07:20   numbers have not gone up that much because we have not had that many paid upgrades. So,

02:07:23   the obvious first question is, have we left money on the table? And the answer is probably

02:07:28   yes. It's almost certainly yes. We have a pretty good article on our website, and it's

02:07:32   called "Our Upgrade Philosophy." It's not our upgrade policy. It's our philosophy on

02:07:36   what upgrades should be. And I don't remember the exact wording I wrote this years ago, but

02:07:40   it's basically, "Bug fix updates are free. We don't charge for OS updates. If we need

02:07:45   to support a new OS, to this point, we have not charged just for that. But when we add

02:07:50   substantial new functionality, that is making the product better, and that's something that

02:07:54   you should have to pay for, and it's fair to charge for, and it's fair for you to have

02:07:57   to pay for it." And so, that's sort of how we've thought about it from the get-go, was

02:08:01   that if there's going to be major new functionality, we'll charge for that. But when we do smaller

02:08:06   updates, we'll provide that for free, and it adds value to the product, and it makes

02:08:10   it more reasonable to charge a fair price from the beginning.

02:08:14   So when I look at that number, I wrote this, and I did the math, and I looked at that number,

02:08:18   and I said, "Yeah, we probably should have charged for a few more of those upgrades and

02:08:22   made a little bit more money." But at the same time, we get a ton of people who say,

02:08:26   "Oh, I've been using this for years, and it's great, and I tell all my friends." And when

02:08:30   the new version does come out that's a paid upgrade, they say, "You know, I bought it

02:08:33   immediately. I knew that there was going to be good value there, and I didn't have to

02:08:37   be convinced to upgrade." So I don't need to, we don't need to wring every single penny

02:08:43   that we can out of this. I try and run a good business, and we've been, as you said, thriving

02:08:48   for 20 years. But if there's a little bit more money we could be making by annoying

02:08:52   people by charging more often. To this point, we've been content with the paid upgrades

02:08:56   that we've had. And the other thing is that, especially when we started, there were millions

02:09:01   upon millions, tens of millions of Mac users, and almost none of them had our product. And

02:09:06   at this point, there's tens of millions of Mac users, and still hundreds of thousands

02:09:10   or a few million, a couple million have our products. But we have complementary products,

02:09:16   we have paid upgrades, and we still have a huge swath of people that can find our products

02:09:21   and purchase them for the first time and hopefully see that there's a lot of value there. So

02:09:26   it's something where even if we hit 10% of Mac users, there's still a huge number of

02:09:30   people out there who aren't using our products and can be new customers. And that's where

02:09:35   we've, our initial prices are not super expensive. They're not hundreds of dollars, but they're

02:09:40   not cut rate pricing. So I think we've always tried to charge a fair price and then have

02:09:44   a fair upgrade policy. But if we haven't optimized for getting every single penny we could, I'm

02:09:49   okay with that because we've been doing pretty well.

02:09:51   Yeah, it's hard to, I was going to say it's hard to put a price on customer loyalty. And

02:09:56   I would say, I guess it's impossible. You can't really assign a direct price. There's

02:09:59   no way to make a column in a spreadsheet where you've pegged the exact value of loyalty that

02:10:07   somebody has.

02:10:08   Of that loyalty.

02:10:09   Right, somebody who's been a user of your product since 18 years ago or something like

02:10:14   that. This person has upgraded three times because there have been three paid upgrades

02:10:19   over that time. They appreciate the fact that they know that they're getting a significant

02:10:24   new version when they upgrade. And the old version isn't going to just stop working,

02:10:29   right? There's always a limit to how long an old version is going to keep working. And

02:10:33   there's all sorts of transitions that are outside your control, like the move to Apple

02:10:37   Silicon and going back.

02:10:39   You know, just OS updates in general. Yeah.

02:10:42   Right. 64-bit transition and all of a sudden 32-bit versions of apps, you know, instead

02:10:47   of getting a recommendation to ask the developer for an update, they just stop working, right?

02:10:53   All of a sudden it just doesn't work. So there's things like that. But for the most part, the

02:10:57   traditional way of selling software to customers and making a business out of creating third

02:11:03   party applications is here's the price. And when we come out with a new version, we'll

02:11:10   have an upgrade price for existing users. And if you like the sounds of it, you could

02:11:15   try it, but install the new version and see if you like the new features. And if you like

02:11:18   it, buy it. And if you want to stick with your old version, you can stick with it for

02:11:22   some amount of time. But that that way of selling software is definitely I'm not saying

02:11:28   it's going away, but it has so clearly been. It's not the norm now, right? It's it. Are

02:11:35   you worried that it like, I know that you like this method of software. And I know that

02:11:41   there are a lot of users out there who prefer buying their software this way. But is there

02:11:46   has it occurred to you that as the as the industry moves on, and subscription pricing

02:11:51   becomes the norm, that people will start thinking your software is priced weirdly?

02:11:55   I mean, so subscription pricing for software is has been fairly mainstream for I don't

02:12:01   know what I want to say at least five years and longer before that Adobe and Microsoft

02:12:05   were trying to do it and people really hated it. But it they stuck with it and businesses

02:12:10   loved it because they could say, Oh, I'm not making a new purchase. I'm just subscribing

02:12:14   to Photoshop for 50 bucks a month. And they don't have to justify anything. You just put

02:12:18   it on a credit card and it goes forever. And so there were a lot of reasons why that took

02:12:23   off. But for for a good long period of that time, people were saying, Oh, this is one

02:12:27   way you can do it. And it's it's, maybe you should consider it. And I feel like that's

02:12:33   still the case is that if you're in the App Store, especially on iOS, you can't have a

02:12:37   free trial. So you need to have a low price up front or no price up front, and then collect

02:12:44   money after the fact often with a subscription. On the Mac, we can say, you know what, you

02:12:48   don't need to pay anything up front, it's $0, try it out. You'll be able to use every

02:12:52   single feature. And then if you realize that this is useful for you, you'll pay, you know,

02:12:57   not $2, you're going to pay 50 bucks, but you're only going to pay that once and it's

02:13:01   going to work for months or years before you're ever going to need to pay again. And so, you

02:13:07   know, I like the model, as you said, am I worried that people will think it's strange

02:13:11   or not understand it? I mean, I wasn't until you mentioned it. But I think it's something

02:13:17   I think it's something where we have the ability. If everybody went to subscriptions, and we

02:13:22   were the last ones not doing it. And people said, Oh, why am I paying 50 bucks up front,

02:13:26   I just want to pay three bucks. And I'll use it for 10 months, or I'll use it for 20 months.

02:13:32   If I use it for 20 months, you're going to make even more money than you would have.

02:13:35   At a certain point, we might say, okay, we need to switch to this method. But right now,

02:13:39   it is not the case that people are terribly confused. It's not the case that people don't

02:13:44   understand paying for an upgrade. There's, as you said, it's an older style of selling

02:13:48   software and the company is 20 years old. And in 2002, this was the way to sell software

02:13:53   on the web. You make a version, you sell it, and then you have a discounted upgrade later

02:13:57   and get some additional revenue from people who are already using it. Now it's not as

02:14:02   common, but it still works, is what I would say. And we have talked about and kicked around

02:14:07   the idea of subscription pricing for years. And every day we get people who say, Oh, thank

02:14:13   you for having a one time purchase. And I don't want to have another subscription. So

02:14:17   that's indicative of the idea that not everyone wants this. It's not something that everyone

02:14:21   thinks we're doing wrong. In terms of making more revenue or in terms of eventually being

02:14:27   so weird that people don't get it, it's possible, but I'm not worried that we can't transition

02:14:32   if we need to.

02:14:33   Yeah, that makes sense. And I do think too, that this method, the traditional method of

02:14:37   selling versions that the customer owns a license to for years to come and gets to choose

02:14:42   whether they upgrade at a loyalty discount, for lack of a better word, when a major new

02:14:46   version comes out years down the road. More and more, the apps that are left are professional

02:14:54   tools. I mean, I suppose that if you put games aside, well then what are any of the apps

02:15:02   people have been using on the Mac for years, 30, 40 years, right? We're almost 38 years

02:15:07   into the Mac. Well, of course the software people pay for is more likely to be something

02:15:13   that is quote unquote, a professional tool.

02:15:17   Something that's making them money or that they're using at a job. Yeah.

02:15:20   Right. But it just seems more like this is my job depends on this and I like buying my

02:15:26   tools.

02:15:27   Yep. Yeah. No, I think that's right. Yeah. Like a carpenter isn't renting a hammer.

02:15:32   Right. I've seen that analogy.

02:15:34   He's buying a saw and he uses it.

02:15:36   I generally prefer your method just because I tend to, the software I tend to buy, I use

02:15:42   for years and years. BB Edit and Mars Edit and Audio Hijacked, a lot of the apps I use

02:15:47   on the Mac, the stuff from Omni Group are apps that have been around for decades plus

02:15:52   or decades, like in the Omni Group's case or now in your case, right? It's decades.

02:15:58   BB Edit.

02:15:59   Right. And BB Edit goes back to 1992. So I prefer it, but I'm also ambivalent about it.

02:16:07   I see which way the trend is going and I know how it's nicer to have regular monthly revenue

02:16:13   than big bursts of revenue when you have a major update. And you know what you guys see,

02:16:19   you know, I understand you run a tight ship over there as the CEO and co-founder, but

02:16:25   you can, the one problem, some companies and we don't have to throw anybody under the

02:16:29   bus, but some companies have gotten in trouble over the years where if your business model

02:16:35   is that you only sell to your existing base when there's a major new update and you've

02:16:40   sort of saturated the market or close to it where upgrade revenue is way more important

02:16:46   than, or is at least essential to the company's business compared to brand new license sales.

02:16:53   And a major upgrade gets delayed in engineering, right? It was supposed to come out in the

02:16:59   summer.

02:17:00   Right. Yeah, sure.

02:17:01   Here we are six months later and now it's starting to look like maybe next summer is

02:17:06   a question mark, right? That we really underestimated this or that engineering challenge. Companies

02:17:14   have gotten in trouble in that case and you don't, as long as you've still got people

02:17:20   who aren't canceling their subscriptions, if people are just paying every month, it's

02:17:24   much more regular.

02:17:25   Yeah. No, it's certainly something that like, I definitely see that downside. And as you

02:17:30   said, we've seen that happen and it has caused companies to go out of business even. But

02:17:35   for us, the upgrade revenue has never been, we've only had these 10 upgrades that we've

02:17:39   charged for. So obviously it can't be too much of our business. It's two things. As

02:17:43   I said early on, it can't be that important, right? As I said early on, we've been able

02:17:49   to grow the customer base just because the Mac has been getting larger and we started

02:17:54   out very small. But the other thing is that we have a lineup of audio products. And so

02:18:00   when we made Loopback, for instance, we advertise that to all of our users and a ton of them

02:18:07   said, "Oh, that is a utility I can use." And they bought that for full price. I think we

02:18:11   might've had a small discount, but it wasn't an upgrade. It was a brand new product. And

02:18:16   now they own two of our products. And over the years, we'll have twice as many upgrades

02:18:20   because it's over owning just one of them. So it's something where having complimentary

02:18:25   products has been really useful in terms of generating more revenue. And the other thing

02:18:30   is we've only ever grown organically. Instead of saying, "Oh, we want to be twice the size

02:18:34   we are now. Let's just ramp up and hire people and then we'll need to find the revenue."

02:18:39   We've said, "Okay, we've got enough excess revenue that we can hire a new person to either

02:18:43   make a new product or develop this one further than we've been able to do so far." And obviously

02:18:47   that's limiting. We're never going to be Facebook, Uber, some giant software company, but it

02:18:52   has served us pretty well. And we're more than a lifestyle company where someone just

02:18:58   is making just enough money to live their life. And we've got employees, we've had a

02:19:02   staff, a double digit staff for many years now, and it's worked pretty well. And again,

02:19:06   like I said, if we've left some money on the table, that's okay. But we've been fortunate

02:19:09   enough to not make any huge mistakes where we were having a revenue gap that we needed

02:19:14   to worry about.

02:19:15   Yeah. The other thing I'll just do before we call it a show is it no longer even seems

02:19:22   to be a topic of conversation amongst a lot of indie Mac companies I know of, of whether

02:19:30   or not they're even going to try another attempt at iPhone software or iPad software for that.

02:19:38   And I'm just curious where you see that at, right? Where in the early days of the iPhone,

02:19:43   to make a very long story very short, when they first said, "Hey, this is the new iPhone.

02:19:48   This is iPhone and it's built on the OS X and it uses Cocoa and it looks so cool." And

02:19:55   it was at the height of indie Mac software having sort of the lickable user interfaces.

02:20:02   And here's a device where it looks even better than on the Mac because the screen has smaller

02:20:07   pixels. And there was so much enthusiasm of now we can, instead of making Mac software,

02:20:12   we'll make iPhone software too. And if the iPhone is more popular than the Mac, which

02:20:17   is funny to think, it was a question at any time, it could be huge, right? And Steve Jobs,

02:20:24   when he introduced it was like, "I think we're going to try to sell 10 million in our second

02:20:27   year." And it's like, "Well, that would be a lot of phones at a time when Apple, I think

02:20:31   around that time they were selling like 2 million Macs a quarter." So he was already

02:20:36   thinking that the iPhone might in its second year outsell the Mac in units. And it's like,

02:20:42   "Oh, this is an exciting new frontier." There are obviously a lot of people whose career

02:20:47   for a decade plus has been making iOS software, but it doesn't seem like it's in the style.

02:20:54   It's nobody even really talks about it anymore of indie Mac or indie iPhone software tools

02:21:00   like RogaMepos.

02:21:01   Andy developers.

02:21:02   Yeah, indie developers.

02:21:03   I mean, the one, the obvious one that comes to mind for me is OmniGroup because they have

02:21:10   iOS versions of most of their products. But yeah, in 2008, when you could start selling

02:21:16   an iPhone app, we made a version of one of our products and we tried to sell it for $10

02:21:22   whole dollars, which was way cheaper than anything we had on the Mac at the time where

02:21:26   everything was $20, $30, $40, $50. And despite the fact that the iPhone had millions upon

02:21:32   millions of users, none of them wanted to pay $10 for a product, especially that they

02:21:38   couldn't use without paying for it. They couldn't try it out first. So very early on, we were

02:21:43   dissuaded from much iOS development. And then over the years, just dealing with various

02:21:48   App Store challenges and product review challenges, submission reviews that Apple does, and it

02:21:53   scared us away from it. And the Mac never saw a downturn on the Mac where people, it's

02:21:59   not something where people said, "Oh, I'm not buying software on the Mac anymore. I'm

02:22:03   using the iPhone." It's something where people said, "Oh, I'm using both of these things."

02:22:06   So the Mac was still a profitable place to be making software. And it was a place where

02:22:11   you could say this piece of software is deep and it has a whole lot of functionality and

02:22:16   you're going to use it a lot. And therefore, it should cost $50 or $100 because it is deep

02:22:22   and because we can give you a trial of it and you can say, "You know what? I am going

02:22:25   to use this. This is worth that kind of outlay in terms of cash." On the iPhone, we tried

02:22:29   to make a relatively deep application, much shallower than our Mac apps, but certainly

02:22:34   deeper than a lot of iPhone apps. And we priced it accordingly and $10 was a fairly high price.

02:22:40   And it just didn't get any traction because that price was too high. I mean, I think going

02:22:44   back to Vesper, you can relate to this somewhat that that was a more in-depth app than a lot

02:22:49   of apps out there. And what was the price range on that? Did it go from like $3 to $10

02:22:55   over time?

02:22:56   $2.99 to $4.99, I think. I forget what the highest was.

02:22:59   Okay, so $3 to $5.

02:23:01   Kind of hovered into $3 to $5 range.

02:23:05   But even that is expensive for the iPhone.

02:23:08   Yeah. And we really...

02:23:09   And you have to do a lot of volume to...

02:23:11   Yeah, we really figured out. I mean, I don't want to turn this into a whole side note about

02:23:16   Vesper, but the timing in hindsight was terrible because it was right at the cusp of when subscription

02:23:25   pricing was going to be...

02:23:27   Subscriptions, yeah, absolutely.

02:23:28   Yeah, it was going to become a thing and that's how you do iPhone apps, but it wasn't there

02:23:33   yet. And yet the... And we don't have deep analytics. You don't get deep analytics like

02:23:41   this, but it was pretty clear what was happening in hindsight is that when people were looking

02:23:44   for a notes app on the app store, they would start by installing the ones that were free,

02:23:50   whether they had in-app purchases or not. But if you could install it for free, they

02:23:54   would start by installing the ones for free. And then at some point, they'd either find

02:24:00   one that they thought was good enough or they would just give up. But they never got to

02:24:04   the point where they're like, "Well, let me try this one with all the good ratings that

02:24:08   looks really cool for $5." It's like they never got there.

02:24:13   That lack of trials, I think it's still there. The alternative is you have a free version

02:24:17   with in-app purchase, but I always point to that on the Mac that I can say, "We can charge

02:24:21   a reasonable price because you get a chance to try it out before you ever put down any

02:24:26   money." And I don't... I mean, I don't want to buy an app on the iPhone for 10 bucks unless

02:24:30   I get a recommendation from a friend or I can play with it on their phone is even better.

02:24:36   If there's a free alternative, that is the one I'm going to try, and I'm someone who

02:24:39   sells software. So I have no problem paying for software, but I have a problem paying

02:24:43   when I can't try it out first.

02:24:45   Right. Well, and the other difference between people like me and you and even everybody

02:24:48   who probably listens to my show here is we follow other sources of information like,

02:24:54   "Oh, I saw Gruber mentioned a new Mercury weather app on Daring Fireball, so I'll check

02:24:59   it out."

02:25:00   Right, exactly.

02:25:01   Whereas to really be... That market isn't big enough, though. The number of people who

02:25:07   would come to a new rogue Amoeba iPhone app just by reading Jason Snell's coverage of

02:25:12   it and John Gruber's coverage of it, too many people just go to the App Store, and the App

02:25:19   Store is their recommendation engine, and the App Store was telling people, "You should

02:25:22   try all these free apps first." I mean, effectively telling them that.

02:25:26   Absolutely, yeah.

02:25:26   Absolutely.

02:25:26   And I know that's counterintuitive because Apple's in so much regulatory pressure right

02:25:31   now over the 30 and 15% cuts they take of the money. Obviously, Apple likes to make

02:25:37   money from their control and their revenue cut of the App Store. So it's not that they

02:25:44   were telling people explicitly, "Don't pay for apps in the App Store," but implicitly,

02:25:50   that was the message you still get from the App Store experience. You type Notes App,

02:25:55   and you see some options say "Install," and others say "Buy," and I'd rather install

02:26:02   something for free than buy it before trying.

02:26:05   Absolutely. Yeah.

02:26:06   The other advantage you guys have is by eking out this ownership, well, not ownership

02:26:12   exclusively, but you guys make audio apps. I mean, who knows? Maybe someday you'll come

02:26:17   out with something that's not an audio app.

02:26:19   Nah, but we have a niche.

02:26:21   Right. And you're known for it. It's easier to cross-sell, right? You mentioned—well,

02:26:25   you didn't mention Farrago, but Farrago is your soundboard app, and so I don't put

02:26:29   gimmicky sounds on my podcast, but if I did, I know that I would use Farrago to do it,

02:26:33   right? I wouldn't even look at anything else. And that you could cross-sell—you've

02:26:37   got so many people who are doing things where that app makes sense, who are already using

02:26:42   Audio Hijack or something else, that your semi-occasional "Don't abuse the mailing

02:26:48   message," would say, "Hey, we've got a soundboard app now." That's like, "Oh,

02:26:52   well, I love your other app, so I'll buy that or I'll at least try it."

02:26:55   Absolutely. Yeah, there's huge value there.

02:26:59   Yeah. And the other thing, too, about having this audio niche is there's no

02:27:04   compatibility story between the devices. So, like, all right, I'm using Audio Hijack,

02:27:10   and that's how I record my podcasts, and it's a very important tool to me. I don't

02:27:16   need access to Audio Hijack on my phone, right? Because I don't do the podcast recording on my

02:27:21   phone. And so, there's no interop. Whereas that—I'm not even saying it's a problem

02:27:26   for the Omni group, but you could see with their apps, people are like, "Well, I need my to-do

02:27:32   list on my phone, too, and I need it on my iPad." I keep my whole brain in Omni Outliner, and I need

02:27:38   that when I have a new idea that I want to add to my outline. I've got to do it from my phone.

02:27:42   And so, again, I'm not saying they absolutely had to, but you could see how with their

02:27:48   apps and the sort of things people do with their apps, the idea that people

02:27:54   would only still be using them on their Mac was probably—they probably were right that they had

02:28:00   to fully embrace iPhone and iPadOS. Multiple platforms for it. Yeah, no. And our tools are

02:28:05   much more of a sit down at your Mac and use them, and you'll get an audio file, which you can do

02:28:10   whatever you want with. But yeah, you don't need to have it on your phone or your iPad.

02:28:15   Yeah, that's exactly it. Your interop format is the audio file that gets produced by the various

02:28:21   tools, and they just work. You can just take—well, it emits an MP3 file. One that you could play the

02:28:25   MP3 file on your phone. That's probably what you wanted to do. Yep. All right. I'm going to call

02:28:32   it a wrap. Thanks, Paul. Can I throw my plug in for—

02:28:37   Of course. You mentioned owning the audio space,

02:28:40   and whether we own it or not, we do own the domain macaudio.com, which is where people should go to

02:28:45   find our products. So, I like having that domain because it at least makes it seem like we own the

02:28:51   audio space. And I think we have mentioned that before, but you do like to—macaudio.com,

02:28:58   and then it gets you out of anybody's confusion over how to spell the words.

02:29:01   How to spell rogue or amoeba. Yeah. Which one do you think is more misspelled?

02:29:07   Well, misspelled in terms of getting to us amoeba because amoeba has three different—at least three

02:29:13   different valid spellings. And I don't remember which of them we own. We own the one that we use,

02:29:18   but I'm not even sure we own either of the other common spellings of it. So yeah, amoeba is

02:29:23   definitely the more problematic of the two, I think. Yeah. I think if you really wanted to cover

02:29:27   all of your possible bases for misspellings of rogueamoeba.com, you'd have to—you'd need at

02:29:32   least 20 domains. It's like—yeah, it's double digits domains. Yeah, exactly.

02:29:37   Anything else you wanted to mention? I think we've covered it though. Congrats on 20 years.

02:29:41   I'll at least have you on once more before you get to 30 years.

02:29:46   Okay, I appreciate that. Sometime in the next 10 years.

02:29:48   Yeah, sometime in the next 10 years, I will have you back on the show.

02:29:51   No, no. I mean, I'm glad to be on. I appreciate it. And it's been fun celebrating this a little

02:29:56   bit. The best thing is that it's made people talk about how they use the products. And that's the

02:30:00   most interesting thing to me is that, you know, we make these products and we have an idea of how

02:30:05   they'll be used. But we've heard from hundreds of different podcasts that said, "Oh, congratulations,

02:30:10   I couldn't make my podcast without you." And it's a podcast I've never heard of on some topic I've

02:30:14   never even thought of. And it's very cool to be a part of something without even knowing it and to

02:30:21   finally see that. So it's just been really interesting to see so much feedback from people.

02:30:26   Yeah, that's always one of the best parts about making tools is that if it's a tool of any kind,

02:30:31   creative people are going to find ways that the toolmaker never thought would have been a use case,

02:30:38   but they're going to find them. Absolutely.