The Talk Show

365: ‘Permanent September’, With Rene Ritchie


00:00:00   - This is gonna be a challenge, Rene.

00:00:01   I feel like this is gonna test all of my meager

00:00:04   podcast hosting skills to get this in on time.

00:00:07   We, you and I, I don't know how many years in a row,

00:00:09   we've done a year in review, Apple year in review

00:00:11   at the end of the year, this is it.

00:00:13   But yet we've got news to cover.

00:00:15   How are we gonna do it?

00:00:16   There's all sorts of new stuff that is out.

00:00:18   I'm not known for my brevity,

00:00:19   but I'm gonna make the best of it.

00:00:21   - Okay.

00:00:22   - How are you?

00:00:23   - Good, thank you, how are you doing?

00:00:25   - Well, I'm doing pretty well.

00:00:27   I'm cold, but it's, the good news is I went outside.

00:00:29   - You have an Intel Mac, though.

00:00:30   That's still got a built-in space heater,

00:00:31   so you're one up on me now.

00:00:33   - No, I'm not using an Intel Mac to record this show.

00:00:36   I'm on an M1, so I'm drawing no heat from my--

00:00:39   - Ah, same, yeah, same.

00:00:40   - I guess year in review, we could start with you.

00:00:43   This has been a big year for you,

00:00:45   and the last time you were on the show back in June,

00:00:48   and nothing had happened yet,

00:00:49   but since then, you've started a new gig,

00:00:52   and for those who don't know,

00:00:53   why don't you talk about it?

00:00:55   - Yeah, I joined YouTube as creator liaison,

00:00:58   and it's interesting because I was done.

00:01:01   My old company got bought out

00:01:02   by some giant UK media conglomerate,

00:01:05   and it wasn't my scene, so I quit.

00:01:08   I went independent.

00:01:09   Mutual friend Dave Whiskus helped me

00:01:11   get a whole YouTube thing going, and it was great.

00:01:13   Never gonna work for a company again,

00:01:15   and then a guy I knew, a friend of mine, Matt Koval,

00:01:17   who was the YouTube creator liaison, he resigned,

00:01:20   and I'd heard about that,

00:01:22   and it was a couple months going on,

00:01:23   and then another friend of mine who works at YouTube said,

00:01:25   "You should try out for the job,"

00:01:27   and I just kept saying, "No, I'm done.

00:01:29   "I'm never working for a company again."

00:01:31   He said, "Just meet with the team," and I did,

00:01:33   and it was like, I swear to God, John,

00:01:36   it was like one of those moments

00:01:37   where you're walked around the park,

00:01:38   and they say, "You don't wanna keep making soda water

00:01:40   "or come with us and dent the universe,"

00:01:43   because it was like really this opportunity

00:01:44   to help people, to help creators,

00:01:46   and all the people that they touch at a scale

00:01:49   that's like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity,

00:01:51   and I always figured helping people choose phones

00:01:53   and helping people choose laptops, that's all great,

00:01:56   but the ability to help people change lives

00:01:59   was something I couldn't pass up,

00:02:01   so I decided to try to get the job,

00:02:02   and then I was very lucky to get it.

00:02:04   - I will say, you do seem, and I do feel like

00:02:07   when you announced it, which was a surprise,

00:02:11   you kept it a surprise for me, including,

00:02:13   all you'd let me know is

00:02:14   that you had an announcement coming up.

00:02:15   I did not press you, which I think you will agree.

00:02:18   I was a good friend, let you have your secret.

00:02:20   I know how that is, but I do feel

00:02:22   that once you announced it,

00:02:24   everybody sort of had the unique or the same reaction,

00:02:28   which was this seems like a job

00:02:30   that was invented for Renee,

00:02:32   and insofar as it is something

00:02:35   you seem keenly interested in,

00:02:37   but also over the years,

00:02:39   I believe that you have befriended

00:02:42   in the truest non-competitive sense

00:02:46   in the way that being on YouTube is not zero-sum, right?

00:02:50   I mean, ultimately it is,

00:02:51   'cause there's only 24 hours in a day.

00:02:53   You can't watch more than 24 hours

00:02:56   of YouTube videos in a day,

00:02:57   I guess unless you speed 'em up,

00:02:59   but you know an awful lot of independent creators

00:03:03   on YouTube, for lack of a better word,

00:03:05   and they know you and like you,

00:03:08   and now your job is literally to help them?

00:03:11   - Yeah, so I advocate for creators inside of YouTube.

00:03:15   Like, everyone on YouTube is really pro-creator.

00:03:17   That was one of the things that,

00:03:18   I can't say it really surprised me,

00:03:19   but really made me happy,

00:03:21   was that everyone fiercely thought about creators

00:03:24   and prioritized creators, but it's my only job.

00:03:27   I don't have anything else to do but advocate for creators,

00:03:30   try to build empathy and understanding

00:03:31   about what creators go through.

00:03:33   All different kinds of creators,

00:03:34   'cause it's not just one kind.

00:03:35   There's big and small and marginalized and mainstream

00:03:38   and all across the spectrum of cultural

00:03:40   and lifestyle interests.

00:03:42   Do all that inside YouTube,

00:03:44   but at the same time try to educate creators outside YouTube

00:03:47   so they understand the systems better

00:03:49   and can be more successful on the platform.

00:03:51   So it's sort of like half ombudsman, half evangelism.

00:03:54   - Yeah, I guess so, right?

00:03:56   I mean, and it's going back to Apple even,

00:03:59   the evangelists, sort of like the working in dev relations,

00:04:03   the equivalent, you know?

00:04:05   - Yeah, except I get to see things on Twitter

00:04:08   and interact with people,

00:04:09   which I think is different than Apple's culture.

00:04:12   The evangelists at Apple are amazing,

00:04:14   but they don't get to interact

00:04:15   in a public forum with developers,

00:04:18   and I also get to champion them inside

00:04:21   and say, "What are we doing here?

00:04:22   "Why is this happening on Twitter?

00:04:23   "What is going on?"

00:04:24   And try to find answers, which I think is fantastic.

00:04:27   - But you're still making videos.

00:04:30   - Yes, yeah, so part of the thing was

00:04:31   I never wanna not feel the pain of being a creator,

00:04:33   'cause I think that helps with the empathy,

00:04:35   and I also wanna make sure if,

00:04:36   it's the same thing with code.

00:04:37   I don't want anyone else to hit the bugs first,

00:04:39   'cause that's a terrible experience.

00:04:41   So I try to do all the different things that YouTube does

00:04:43   so that I can feel the same things

00:04:44   that creators are going through.

00:04:47   Which would be different.

00:04:49   Again, to stress the analogy,

00:04:50   it would be like if somebody who worked in dev relations

00:04:52   at Apple could still be an independent developer somehow.

00:04:56   Which it doesn't actually, I actually do understand.

00:04:59   Actually, can't spend too much time

00:05:03   going into the app store today.

00:05:04   We have time limits, but I understand

00:05:07   why that doesn't quite work out.

00:05:09   It's interesting to me, though,

00:05:11   that it does, that YouTube doesn't see this,

00:05:13   and I guess I can kind of see why.

00:05:16   The idea would be, well, wait a minute.

00:05:18   If you're making some kind of app,

00:05:19   how do you know it's not Apple's,

00:05:21   there's weird, people go to work for a big,

00:05:24   it's not just Apple, but you go to work

00:05:26   for one of these big companies.

00:05:28   Your employment contract often says something

00:05:32   to the effect of, it's just best not to work

00:05:35   on other software.

00:05:37   Whereas your video, your independent video creations,

00:05:41   there's no reason why YouTube would have any claim,

00:05:43   or even want claim to them, right?

00:05:44   YouTube itself has no interest in owning them,

00:05:48   as opposed to some sort of clever utility

00:05:50   for iOS or something like that,

00:05:52   where you could see the conflict

00:05:54   and you don't want to blur any lines.

00:05:56   This sort of is perfect?

00:05:58   - Yeah, I did have to change my channel

00:06:00   in a non-insignificant way,

00:06:02   'cause I was just doing complete Apple product coverage

00:06:04   and a lot of rumors and things.

00:06:05   Now I work inside Google, I have a lot of information

00:06:07   inside Google, so it's not fair for me

00:06:10   to do that kind of stuff.

00:06:11   So I try to do more video essays.

00:06:13   And also it wouldn't be fair if I had access to things

00:06:15   that weren't available, at least in public betas.

00:06:17   So we're all very careful to make sure that,

00:06:20   like I'm running it in a way that doesn't touch anything

00:06:22   that Google does, which is hard,

00:06:23   'cause Google does so many things,

00:06:25   but also doesn't have access to anything

00:06:27   that a standard creator wouldn't have access to.

00:06:29   - Hmm, I getcha, I getcha.

00:06:31   And so anyway, here we are at the end of the year,

00:06:33   it's going well?

00:06:34   - Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic.

00:06:36   It's the best thing I've ever done.

00:06:37   Like I get to finish almost every day

00:06:39   knowing that I helped creators,

00:06:40   especially marginalized creators,

00:06:41   in like pretty amazing ways.

00:06:43   - That's pretty good.

00:06:44   All right, before we dig into actual news,

00:06:47   Apple Front, let's start with a thank you

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00:09:18   Let's get the news out of the way.

00:09:19   I would say, let's just go least pleasant to most pleasant.

00:09:24   And I've spent a lot of time writing about Twitter this month.

00:09:30   I think a very good interview with Anil Dash

00:09:33   an episode or two ago here on the show,

00:09:35   which the backstory on that is that things are moving

00:09:40   so fast at Twitter under Elon Musk

00:09:43   that usually I have about a 36, 48 hour turnaround here

00:09:48   between recording and publishing episodes,

00:09:51   sometimes closer to 24 hours, sometimes closer to 48.

00:09:54   So much had happened after Anil,

00:09:58   Anil and I record, I thought it went really well.

00:10:01   And I was really keen on having a guest

00:10:04   who was skeptical, to say the least,

00:10:07   that's almost putting it kindly,

00:10:08   skeptical of Elon Musk back in April

00:10:11   when it was first announced that he would buy Twitter

00:10:14   because I was publicly optimistic.

00:10:17   And so I wanted somebody who would push me on that

00:10:20   because I was turning, I was like, hmm,

00:10:23   looks like this might be one of those cases

00:10:25   where I get to apply my way to be right all the time

00:10:28   is to admit when you're wrong.

00:10:29   - Yes.

00:10:30   - And Anil was excellent and really made

00:10:33   a lot of keen points, further changed my mind

00:10:36   during the interview, which is always to me very exciting.

00:10:39   I find it very exciting to change my mind.

00:10:41   And I got worried after we recorded

00:10:44   because all of a sudden more stuff started happening.

00:10:46   And I was like, is this even gonna be relevant?

00:10:49   And it was literally the weekend where he laid off

00:10:56   three quarters, two thirds, whatever of their staff

00:10:58   and then additional people started resigning

00:11:02   and there was speculation, there were quotes in the press

00:11:05   from people who said that there were teams

00:11:07   that Twitter could not function without

00:11:09   who were down to zero headcount.

00:11:12   And so if it were true that Twitter couldn't function

00:11:15   without them, that the whole site might collapse,

00:11:17   which didn't happen, but I was,

00:11:20   it was a stressful 36 hours 'cause I was like,

00:11:22   I want this episode out, it was good.

00:11:24   - I don't have much more to say about that.

00:11:25   I will say though that in the last 24 hours as we record,

00:11:30   Twitter instituted an official policy,

00:11:33   including an official help page,

00:11:35   banning the inclusion of links to about, I don't know,

00:11:40   half a dozen, a dozen other social media sites.

00:11:43   It's funny what was included on the list and what wasn't.

00:11:45   It was like Facebook, Instagram, Mastodon,

00:11:48   which I think was the one that was under Elon Musk's skin.

00:11:50   Truth Social for some reason, but not LinkedIn and not,

00:11:55   I forget what else, or Tumblr.

00:11:56   - Not YouTube. - Yeah, not YouTube.

00:11:58   But YouTube would certainly make sense, I think,

00:12:01   because I, I don't know, it's--

00:12:04   - Yeah, and Notor was there too, which upset Jack.

00:12:07   - Yes, well, that seemed like it was just for Jack, right?

00:12:12   - Yeah. - What's it called?

00:12:12   Nostr? - Nostr, yeah, I don't know.

00:12:15   There's too few letters left and too many acronyms.

00:12:18   - Yeah, I don't understand it.

00:12:20   I looked into it when I saw Jack was into it.

00:12:22   - Not, it's N-O-S-T-R, so it's sort of a 20,

00:12:26   sort of like a, I guess, maybe?

00:12:29   It's like, well, I don't know, though,

00:12:30   it's about predictions, but I looked into it

00:12:32   and it's not something you can sign up for.

00:12:34   It's like some kind of, it's way more nascent and nerdy

00:12:38   and you run it and generate, I don't know.

00:12:40   It's more cryptographically inclined.

00:12:42   - But not Hive, it was a real smorgasbord, a link tree,

00:12:45   a real smorgasbord of random things.

00:12:48   - Yeah, well, Hive is the one that exploded in popularity,

00:12:51   but then had sort of had to shut down for a bit

00:12:54   because they were so in over their heads.

00:12:56   Again, it doesn't seem like they were incompetent.

00:12:59   It just seems like a three-person project

00:13:02   exploded in popularity for reasons, you know.

00:13:04   Nobody can, you never know when something's

00:13:06   gonna blow up like that.

00:13:08   Post seems more, post.news is the name

00:13:12   of the social network.

00:13:14   Right now, they're web-only.

00:13:15   I honestly don't see the appeal, but you know,

00:13:20   maybe it's because it's designed for people

00:13:22   who are unlike me.

00:13:24   It seems to be drawn up to draw journalists,

00:13:29   for lack of a better word, media personalities,

00:13:31   which you would think I would be included in,

00:13:33   but I just don't see the appeal of it.

00:13:35   - No.

00:13:36   - But because it's going after media people

00:13:39   and Elon Musk is obsessed clearly,

00:13:41   whether you love him or hate him or are ambivalent,

00:13:43   he's clearly interested in publicity and attention.

00:13:47   Therefore, a network specifically geared towards people

00:13:51   in a position of media influence

00:13:52   is clearly gonna catch his attention.

00:13:54   - And this was all, by the way,

00:13:55   during the World Cup finale,

00:13:57   where attention became incredibly divided.

00:13:59   - Right?

00:14:01   - And he was there, alive,

00:14:02   like he's coordinating a less-well-sittin'-there-in-the-box,

00:14:04   watchin' the match.

00:14:05   - Right, in Qatar with a friend of the show, Jared Kushner.

00:14:09   - Jared and the homies.

00:14:11   - Yeah, and you know, well, by late last night,

00:14:14   the whole policy had been rescinded,

00:14:16   the help page was a 404,

00:14:18   and I guess it's a big nevermind.

00:14:20   I'm not quite sure if they've taken,

00:14:22   I haven't even tried it yet,

00:14:23   if they have taken out the filters,

00:14:25   the ham-fisted filters they've applied

00:14:28   to keep you from linking to your Mastodon account

00:14:30   in your Twitter bio.

00:14:32   I don't know if they've taken those out yet or not.

00:14:34   Who knows what's going on?

00:14:35   I'm just curious.

00:14:36   - My favorite was the quick journey of Paul Graham,

00:14:39   where he went from people who aren't CEOs of companies

00:14:41   shouldn't be telling Elon how to run this company,

00:14:43   to this is it, my last straw, I've had it,

00:14:45   I'm leaving from Mastodon, to Paul Graham is banned.

00:14:48   - I sympathize with Paul Graham though,

00:14:51   'cause I feel like while his initial tweet

00:14:53   that he's getting dunked on from, I don't know,

00:14:56   a long, long couple of weeks ago,

00:14:58   where he said people who haven't been in this position

00:15:00   shouldn't criticize, you know,

00:15:02   he's run rocket and electric car companies,

00:15:05   that's harder, to now being, you know, yesterday,

00:15:07   while that, now the link policy has been rescinded,

00:15:09   so, you know, and Paul Graham did not close or shutter

00:15:13   or delete his Twitter account, he just said,

00:15:14   "I'm just gonna stop using it

00:15:16   "if this nonsense stays in policy."

00:15:18   Well, you know, it is funny, it is a journey,

00:15:21   it definitely fits the meme of how things started,

00:15:25   how they're going, right, which is an evergreen format.

00:15:29   - There were a couple of these, like the other one,

00:15:31   where the two others really stuck out to me,

00:15:32   one was a YouTuber, I would say like a right-leaning YouTuber,

00:15:37   somebody who's clearly in Elon Musk's wheelhouse right now,

00:15:41   said, "This is bad because I wanna use my link tree

00:15:44   "to connect to my YouTube and to my coffee products

00:15:47   "and all this," and Elon was like,

00:15:48   "Oh yeah, that's a good idea,

00:15:49   "so from now on we'll change it."

00:15:51   And it's just like that feedback loop to me is astonishing.

00:15:55   And then Jimmy, MrBeast tweeted, like Elon put up this,

00:15:59   we'll get to this, Elon put up this poll

00:16:00   about whether we should stay or not,

00:16:01   and Jimmy's like, "If you keep doing hair-brain stuff

00:16:04   "like this, no," with a barf emoji,

00:16:06   and usually when you push back on Elon, his fans flood you.

00:16:11   I've done three videos on Twitter,

00:16:12   same like you've been coming at your podcast,

00:16:14   I never got that much hate for covering Zuckerberg,

00:16:17   covering Google, covering Apple,

00:16:19   covering any other company's things

00:16:21   that I thought were not examples of good management.

00:16:24   I got destroyed on all of those videos.

00:16:27   And Jimmy is the first time I've seen someone respond

00:16:29   to Elon in a negative way where the fandom did not know

00:16:33   how to react and were kinda like,

00:16:35   "But Jimmy, Jimmy, please, let us just explain it to you."

00:16:38   - So yeah, I guess where we stand as we record,

00:16:41   God only knows where things will stand

00:16:43   by the time this episode drops

00:16:44   or where we'll be, the light,

00:16:46   the epochs from now that the end of the year is,

00:16:51   but as of yesterday's-- - The Twitter time.

00:16:55   - Cliffhanger episode of the Elon Musk show,

00:16:58   he had commissioned, or not commissioned,

00:17:01   but put up a Twitter poll for 12 hours,

00:17:03   should he stay or step down as CEO,

00:17:06   and the 57% to 43% said he should step down.

00:17:11   And he said, "I would abide by the poll, who knows?"

00:17:14   But we shall see. - It's hard to see.

00:17:16   Like it's hard because unless he sells a controlling stake

00:17:19   and deletes the app from his phone, frankly,

00:17:21   he will still own it,

00:17:22   and whoever runs it will be beholden to him.

00:17:25   Or the other prediction is that he wants out

00:17:28   Tesla's underperforming,

00:17:29   he's not responsible to shareholders at Twitter,

00:17:32   but he certainly is at Tesla,

00:17:33   and that this could be a sort of a graceful,

00:17:35   meme-y way of getting out of it.

00:17:37   - I guess, you know, if he's like done having fun

00:17:41   and he's like, you know-- - It's not worth it.

00:17:44   - You know, at least, at this point,

00:17:46   it is a stretch coming up with positive things.

00:17:49   To say the least, it is a stretch to come up

00:17:51   with positive things to say about Elon Musk

00:17:55   and his stewardship as owner of Twitter.

00:17:57   But one of them, at least, is that he does change his mind.

00:18:02   I mean, his frequent changes of mind

00:18:06   are a part of the problem,

00:18:08   but at least it's not like he came in

00:18:12   with a list of four things

00:18:14   and hasn't added to the list

00:18:17   or crossed some items off the list and said nevermind, right?

00:18:20   So who knows?

00:18:22   But I don't really see how, so long as he owns it,

00:18:25   I don't really see how this poll,

00:18:27   like, it's exactly what you said.

00:18:29   He can hire somebody, he can give them the title CEO,

00:18:33   but as a privately held company,

00:18:34   they would clearly answer to him.

00:18:36   So he is the de facto head of Twitter so long as he owns it.

00:18:41   And good luck selling it at this point at anything.

00:18:45   I mean, he could sell it,

00:18:46   but he couldn't sell it at anything near what he paid for.

00:18:49   - Yeah, yeah, 100%.

00:18:51   It is interesting because you see

00:18:53   all these different takes on it.

00:18:54   My usual take is when everyone talks,

00:18:55   when anyone talks about free speech on the internet

00:18:57   is that it is never as simple as just saying it.

00:19:01   Like just saying it out loud.

00:19:02   There was this wonderful thread,

00:19:03   I'm sure you saw it from one of the founders of Reddit,

00:19:06   who just basically said,

00:19:07   we just want to make good features,

00:19:08   but you humans are horrible to each other.

00:19:10   We have to stop all the time

00:19:11   just to fix all the human crap that's going on

00:19:13   and we can never get the features we want done.

00:19:15   And I thought it was like,

00:19:16   it was just showing how these things

00:19:18   inevitably fall into chaos.

00:19:19   And that was really instructive to me

00:19:22   because I think one of the things

00:19:23   that Elon is really good at is the attention economy,

00:19:25   but at a certain point you have to ask yourself,

00:19:28   is all attention equally valuable?

00:19:30   And this is something YouTube went through as well.

00:19:32   Like at a certain point,

00:19:33   it was all about click-through rates.

00:19:34   So people had these really click-baity thumbnails

00:19:37   and then it was all about watch times

00:19:38   and people would do increasingly sensational things

00:19:40   just to hold your attention

00:19:41   and some of those things were incredibly negative

00:19:43   because people will rubberneck,

00:19:45   will stop, will look at accidents,

00:19:47   but it wasn't a good feeling.

00:19:48   Like it just wasn't a healthy feeling.

00:19:50   So it shifted to figuring out

00:19:52   there were different kinds of watch time.

00:19:54   There was some watch time you felt good about,

00:19:55   that was satisfying,

00:19:56   and some that you felt really bad about

00:19:58   and they changed the entire way the system works

00:20:00   to prioritize satisfaction rather than just engagement.

00:20:03   And to me, I think that was a sea change

00:20:05   in just how algorithms approach people being more human.

00:20:08   And I think the risk that we have right now in Twitter

00:20:10   is that the attention right now is attention at any cost

00:20:13   and a lot of it is profoundly negative.

00:20:15   And that just has, at least for me,

00:20:17   like I don't feel like using Twitter the way I used to.

00:20:20   And I used to use Twitter a lot and I just,

00:20:22   I look there and it feels like I'm in the middle

00:20:23   of an accident and I just back away every day.

00:20:25   - Yeah, I'm curious.

00:20:27   It doesn't seem like you've set up shop on Mastodon yet?

00:20:31   - I did, I set up an account.

00:20:32   When Melton did, I just copied whatever he did.

00:20:34   So I have an account.

00:20:35   I think I follow one person

00:20:37   and I don't think I've ever used it yet.

00:20:38   But I got to the point where like people will take

00:20:41   my username if I don't go pretty fast.

00:20:43   So I've set up as many things as I can

00:20:45   just to keep the username in case I ever need it.

00:20:48   - Yeah, that's part of the problem though with Mastodon.

00:20:51   And I'm warming up to it and I've actually broken the seal

00:20:54   and started using mine.

00:20:56   I don't know how much.

00:20:57   I would like to have at least one Twitter-like thing

00:21:02   in my life, whether it's Twitter or Mastodon.

00:21:05   But I don't know that I,

00:21:07   having two is an interesting, for me personally,

00:21:10   is an interesting psychological test

00:21:15   because it's sort of,

00:21:16   I was thinking about it while I was out running errands

00:21:20   the other day.

00:21:21   I went to my two places for wandering thoughts,

00:21:23   the shower and a walk.

00:21:24   But I was walking and I was thinking about it.

00:21:26   There's an old axiom that I really believe in about design.

00:21:31   And it's the design of anything.

00:21:33   A product, software, hardware,

00:21:36   how many brands of mustard to stock in your supermarket,

00:21:40   how many brands of ketchup, how many, you know.

00:21:43   That when you give people a choice,

00:21:47   there's always an implicit extra choice,

00:21:52   which is not to choose at all.

00:21:54   And it's counterintuitive because it's,

00:21:58   we're wired to think having a choice is always better.

00:22:03   Certainly having a choice is better

00:22:05   than having no choice at all.

00:22:06   And in many cases that is true,

00:22:08   but it's one of those, there's two sides to every coin.

00:22:12   And there are cases where having too many choices

00:22:14   is too much.

00:22:15   And there is a weird difference for me

00:22:19   that all of a sudden my combined stuff

00:22:23   I would like to see on a Twitter-like experience is now,

00:22:29   and it's permanently split between Twitter and Mastodon

00:22:32   to some degree because some number of people

00:22:35   who I definitely enjoy following

00:22:37   and have been followed on Twitter for over a decade

00:22:40   have moved permanently to Mastodon.

00:22:43   But I also see the- - All our original friends

00:22:44   have left, like I miss them dearly.

00:22:46   I don't see their tweets anymore,

00:22:46   and I really do miss them.

00:22:48   - And it does make looking at my Mastodon timeline

00:22:52   enjoyable in a retro way where it's like,

00:22:54   "Hey, this sort of feels like Twitter circa 2009," right?

00:22:58   Like early years of, like to me, the Twitter,

00:23:03   as I'm using Mastodon, Twitter,

00:23:06   or as I'm using Mastodon today,

00:23:09   I can recall the feelings of using the very early

00:23:14   Twitter-ific on the very- - Yeah, pre-,

00:23:17   Ashton Kutcher Twitter is what it is today.

00:23:19   - Right, the very early iPhones

00:23:22   with the lickable interfaces,

00:23:24   and everything's a little 3D and-

00:23:26   - Or it went mainstream.

00:23:28   - And it just feels like that.

00:23:30   And it's because it's the same people,

00:23:32   it is sort of an early adopter enthusiast crowd.

00:23:35   I mean, there's a million, there's like 10 million people,

00:23:37   I believe, now on Mastodon.

00:23:38   I don't know how many are active.

00:23:39   So it's not a tiny, tiny sliver.

00:23:41   It's not a tiny, niche, like just people

00:23:45   who listen to my show, right?

00:23:47   It's not like, oh, it's just people who are super nerdy

00:23:50   and know how to program or something like that.

00:23:52   It's definitely broader than that.

00:23:54   But it is definitely also nowhere near mass market

00:23:59   in terms of its appeal. - It's like old Mac field vibe.

00:24:02   - Right, and I do like that.

00:24:04   But it's weird though, because now when I want to satisfy

00:24:09   my read something vaguely like Twitter,

00:24:11   I've got to choose which icon to tap on my phone.

00:24:16   And that is, so I see, and I know a lot of the people

00:24:21   who have said, look, I am done with Twitter.

00:24:24   Either they like, maybe they even shuttered their account,

00:24:26   but they're at least, they're not cross-posting,

00:24:29   they're not splitting their time between the two.

00:24:31   They're like, I'm done with this guy, he's in that job.

00:24:33   Twitter's been shitty for a while anyway.

00:24:36   I'm all in on Mastodon.

00:24:38   I get why people do that.

00:24:40   It's the split that is, to me, very difficult.

00:24:43   And in a way, that's sort of,

00:24:45   also lessons I've been thinking about is it's like

00:24:47   new things that popped up post-Twitter,

00:24:51   and Instagram would be the most obvious,

00:24:53   even though Instagram's been around so long now too,

00:24:56   it's hard to remember that Instagram was a,

00:25:00   not a Twitter clone, but had obviously

00:25:02   learned lessons from Twitter.

00:25:04   - Yeah. - And famously,

00:25:06   when Instagram launched, Twitter still had API access

00:25:10   to your follower graph.

00:25:12   I don't know why they call it a graph,

00:25:13   but for whatever, that's the lingo.

00:25:15   But Instagram, in the very early days,

00:25:19   like those days when it was iPhone only,

00:25:22   largely bootstrapped off people's Twitter follower

00:25:27   and connection graph, right?

00:25:29   You could go into Instagram and connect it to your Twitter,

00:25:31   and it would find the people, oh,

00:25:34   all these people who follow you or you follow

00:25:36   or follow you on Twitter, we can connect you up on Instagram

00:25:39   and all of a sudden you're up and running

00:25:41   and it's largely the same people.

00:25:44   But it made sense conceptually that I wanted to use both

00:25:47   because what you posted to the two things

00:25:49   and what other people posted were so different,

00:25:52   especially in the early days of Instagram

00:25:54   when it was super, super clear

00:25:56   that not only did you only post photos,

00:25:58   you only posted square photos.

00:26:00   - Yeah, and photos from mobile, you got made fun of

00:26:02   if you posted a DSLR photo or something.

00:26:04   - Right, right, it was sort of an unofficial part of the,

00:26:07   not rules, but the sportsman-like conduct

00:26:11   was that you were supposed to be taking photos

00:26:13   with your phone and the phones were so crummy

00:26:17   circa 2010, 2011, and that's why they had those filters

00:26:21   that people have, I'm sure, largely forgotten,

00:26:23   but these overzealous photo filters

00:26:28   to make your phone images look like they were shot

00:26:31   on 30-year-old film stock with the,

00:26:36   replete with grungy details like corners of the image

00:26:40   that looked like the over-scanned film

00:26:45   on a flatbed scanner and that sort of thing.

00:26:46   - Sort of justify the badness.

00:26:48   - Right, but it was brilliant though

00:26:50   because it actually did make the photos, it was gimmicky,

00:26:53   and I think that they were keenly aware of it

00:26:55   and backed away at just the right time and said,

00:26:57   "You know what, we don't need to do this anymore."

00:26:59   But at the time, it made photos that coming right off

00:27:02   the camera roll on your phone,

00:27:05   which were kind of flat and looked like,

00:27:07   I mean, we don't really talk about cell phone photos anymore

00:27:11   but at the time, we were in this transition era

00:27:14   between when our phones took better pictures

00:27:16   than most point-and-shoot cameras to,

00:27:18   from when they know they, it kind of looks like

00:27:22   a $5 component that just got added on

00:27:25   on the back of your phone.

00:27:25   - Free iPhone 4, there were no such thing as selfies.

00:27:27   I mean, the world changes rapidly.

00:27:29   - Right, right, we had no front-facing camera.

00:27:31   Can you imagine selling, I mean,

00:27:33   it's just, I don't know what's more amazing

00:27:35   that the original iPhone didn't shoot any video at all,

00:27:38   let alone bad video, or that it didn't have

00:27:40   a front-facing camera until, what was it, the iPhone 4?

00:27:44   Is that right? - Yeah, iPhone 4.

00:27:45   - That sounds about, so there were three generations

00:27:47   of iPhone that had no front-facing camera,

00:27:50   which didn't seem weird, honestly.

00:27:52   I remember when the front-facing camera came out

00:27:54   and thought, ah, I guess I'll use it once, I don't know.

00:27:59   - And then faced, yeah, and then he made calls.

00:28:01   The interesting thing for me, though,

00:28:02   is I've been traveling a lot for my new job,

00:28:04   and one of the parts is I meet a lot of creators,

00:28:06   and I would typically, they would say,

00:28:07   "How do I get in contact with you?"

00:28:08   And I would say, "Twitter," and I increasingly noticed

00:28:11   that especially women creators, black creators,

00:28:14   LGBTQ creators, they were just either never on Twitter

00:28:17   or had got harassed off of Twitter years ago,

00:28:21   and we're all mostly on Instagram now.

00:28:23   It had become a real community for them

00:28:25   where they could participate with people

00:28:27   that didn't make them feel just horrible every day,

00:28:29   and that was really eye-opening for me.

00:28:31   So I sort of, now I try to be in all those places

00:28:34   because I know there's very different people there.

00:28:37   - Yeah, it's funny to sing the praises of a Facebook company,

00:28:42   but I do think that they, certainly Instagram

00:28:47   is their product that I'm the most familiar with

00:28:49   'cause it's the one I'm active on,

00:28:50   but I have many complaints about Instagram,

00:28:53   and I'm sure that the people who are at meta

00:28:56   working on Instagram are so ever,

00:28:58   I don't think anybody's more thankful

00:29:00   that Elon Musk bought Twitter than them

00:29:03   because the social media meme of 2022 up until October

00:29:08   was that Instagram had sort of jumped the shark

00:29:11   for lack of a better summary.

00:29:12   By cramming ever more stuff into what was once

00:29:17   a very simple, very easy to understand app,

00:29:20   and now it's an entire system of sub-networks

00:29:25   and content types, and we could do a whole show

00:29:30   just about the way that Instagram has ruined

00:29:33   what it once was, which I'm not even passing judgment

00:29:37   'cause maybe that's what they need to do to stay relevant.

00:29:39   Who knows?

00:29:40   Let's just give them the benefit of the doubt,

00:29:41   but at least now nobody's talking about it.

00:29:42   But one thing I do think is true is that Instagram

00:29:45   has, throughout all of this, I can complain at length

00:29:50   about their product decisions, but as a social destination,

00:29:55   it seemingly never had the problems Twitter has had

00:29:59   of being, oh, this is a place where you can get

00:30:03   discriminated against, you're gonna,

00:30:06   I mean, it happens, right?

00:30:07   But it seems like on Instagram that it's,

00:30:10   there are mechanisms in place that keep it

00:30:13   from turning into Twitter.

00:30:15   - Yeah, I wanna-- - For lack of a better term.

00:30:16   - At the risk of derailing a lot of this,

00:30:18   and I don't wanna do that, but there's this interesting thing

00:30:20   where somebody like Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk,

00:30:23   when they've removed all accountability,

00:30:24   like they don't have a board of directors,

00:30:25   well, Mark does, but he effectively owns

00:30:27   all the voting chairs, so it doesn't really matter,

00:30:29   and Elon owns the entire company,

00:30:31   and it reminds me of sort of like,

00:30:32   you know, when people talked about the prequels

00:30:33   with George Lucas, when you get to a certain stage,

00:30:36   you start to think that you know better

00:30:37   and you don't need accountability,

00:30:38   you don't need people who push back on you,

00:30:40   you don't need boards, you don't need editors,

00:30:42   and it's always to the detriment of the product

00:30:45   in the end, because there's no one person

00:30:46   who could ever really keep all of their own worst ideas

00:30:49   in check, and it does remind me a little bit

00:30:51   of those stories about Steve Jobs,

00:30:52   like not wanting to make iTunes,

00:30:54   but trusting Eddie and Phil enough to put it on Windows,

00:30:57   or not wanting to make a small tablet,

00:30:59   but like Eddie's saying, "We've gotta do this,"

00:31:01   and Steve's like, "Fine, but if you screw it up,

00:31:02   "it's your ass," you know, but he'd at least

00:31:04   like had people who would push back,

00:31:06   or even like Sal, when he's like,

00:31:07   "You can't get rid of these accessibility features,"

00:31:09   like he's just yelling at them in front of a group of people,

00:31:11   and they didn't get rid of those accessibility features.

00:31:14   That, to me, is the quality that I think so many

00:31:16   of the latter-day people who were equated to Jobs

00:31:19   are just so fundamentally missing out on.

00:31:21   - Yeah, I do think so, 'cause I do think that it's,

00:31:24   I really do believe it.

00:31:26   All of my years covering them, all of my years

00:31:29   knowing people who work at Apple,

00:31:31   I mean, obviously, there's a level of respect.

00:31:34   I mean, you see, you need, as a personal skill,

00:31:36   you need to be able to stand your ground respectfully.

00:31:40   I mean, I don't think Apple has ever been a shouty place.

00:31:44   People don't shout and have arguments,

00:31:46   but it has always been a place,

00:31:48   or at least post Steve Jobs' next reunification,

00:31:52   has been a place where you are definitely encouraged

00:31:55   to disagree, even with the boss, right?

00:31:57   Your boss, your boss's boss, you go right up to,

00:32:00   I'm in a meeting, holy crap, I'm in a meeting

00:32:02   with Steve Jobs, or in the modern days,

00:32:05   I'm in a meeting with Craig Federighi or Tim,

00:32:08   or whoever else it might be,

00:32:10   and you really disagree, you can tell them,

00:32:13   I really disagree, but you know,

00:32:15   be ready to make your case.

00:32:17   But they, and that they will listen,

00:32:19   and you may not win, but you will be listened to,

00:32:22   and you won't be fired just by disagreeing.

00:32:26   In fact, it's much more likely

00:32:28   that you're not going to succeed, and you,

00:32:31   in a place like Twitter today, it's obviously very clear

00:32:36   that disagreeing with the boss is a good way

00:32:38   to get fired by the next day.

00:32:40   And if the problem at Apple is that you never disagree

00:32:44   because you're too timid to, or you're worried

00:32:47   that that's not going to work,

00:32:48   you're not gonna get fired on a whim

00:32:50   because you didn't speak up, but you may not last long

00:32:53   'cause that's not the culture.

00:32:54   You're expected to speak up, you know?

00:32:57   And I definitely think, you know, there's,

00:33:01   I think that's part of the Jobs, Steve Jobs legend

00:33:05   that is truly just pure legend and isn't really true, right?

00:33:09   Like, there's story, I don't think it's ever happened,

00:33:11   as far as I know.

00:33:12   I don't think it's ever, there's always that one,

00:33:13   the one story was that in the very early days of Jobs

00:33:16   back as CEO that he was in an elevator

00:33:18   with some random employee, and he asked them,

00:33:22   "What do you do?"

00:33:24   And they didn't really have a good answer,

00:33:25   and then he, but the elevator doors opened,

00:33:28   and he's like, "Well, give me your name

00:33:29   "'cause you're fired," you know?

00:33:30   And I don't think that, I really don't think

00:33:32   that that sort of thing ever happened.

00:33:34   It just doesn't, 'cause I don't think the people I know

00:33:37   who stayed at Apple and worked under Steve Jobs,

00:33:39   they never would, nobody would've put up with it.

00:33:41   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:43   Yeah, you can't keep the best people that way.

00:33:45   - So anyway, Twitter, I don't wanna say much more,

00:33:48   but I guess I'm, I've got, you know,

00:33:51   I'm starting to crack the knuckles on Mastodon.

00:33:54   I don't know, it's, and again, I'm all in favor of it,

00:33:57   and I think I have to say, I think it's holding up

00:34:00   to the growth better than I thought it would.

00:34:02   We'll see how it works long-term.

00:34:05   I do think the people who created it

00:34:07   and cultivated, both created it technically

00:34:10   and have been there, you know, and I'm,

00:34:15   I'm sensitive to the fact that there are people

00:34:19   who've been all in on Mastodon as their Twitter-like

00:34:22   social thing for years, right, at this point,

00:34:25   for four years or more, and now all of a sudden,

00:34:29   there's all, at least from their perspective, right,

00:34:32   not from the perspective of Twitter's overall user base

00:34:35   or certainly not Instagram's or go even bigger,

00:34:38   but from what Mastodon was three months ago

00:34:42   to where it is today, overwhelming majority of the users

00:34:47   are brand new, and that's always disruptive,

00:34:50   and I'm sure that there are things that the long-time,

00:34:53   years-long Mastodon users are already like,

00:34:57   "Ah, man, we had a really nice thing going," you know.

00:35:00   - Who let the kids in?

00:35:02   - Right, and it's, you know, it all goes back to the,

00:35:06   whatever they called it in September of every year

00:35:09   in the 90, you know, pre-web 90s on the internet

00:35:13   where the freshmen would come in and get their

00:35:16   Telnet accounts at their university,

00:35:18   and then all of a sudden, Usenet,

00:35:20   all of your favorite Usenet groups were full of people

00:35:23   who didn't know what they were doing.

00:35:25   - Or when AOL opened up to Usenet, that was the day.

00:35:28   - Right, that was the big one.

00:35:29   That was the end, that was the end of the,

00:35:32   I think that's when it became, I forget the lingo,

00:35:34   but it doesn't, but it effectively became

00:35:36   permanent September was the term,

00:35:39   'cause it's never gonna stop at this point.

00:35:41   But it is, you know, it is what it is.

00:35:45   I guess the last thing I'll say before we wrap up the point

00:35:48   is that the other point that's been percolating in my head

00:35:51   is I think we all can see that there's never going to be

00:35:57   another Twitter in terms of being the one global,

00:36:02   unified, centralized, Twitter-like place

00:36:06   where you just post, it's a brilliant idea.

00:36:09   It is so simple that it's easy to overlook

00:36:11   how brilliant the fundamental concept of Twitter is,

00:36:14   because it's easy to understand.

00:36:16   You get an account, there's one namespace for accounts,

00:36:20   and what can you do?

00:36:22   You can post a limited amount of text in a box,

00:36:25   and it goes out to the people who choose to follow you,

00:36:29   and you can choose the people whose tweets

00:36:33   you yourself will see.

00:36:35   That's a brilliant, it sounds obvious,

00:36:38   it's hard to believe that somebody had to invent it,

00:36:40   and it's like many of the very best inventions,

00:36:43   it's really hard to see how it wasn't invented

00:36:47   earlier than 2006, but it wasn't, and it is brilliant,

00:36:52   but I ultimately think what Musk's stewardship of Twitter

00:36:57   is accelerating is the conclusion

00:37:00   that this is not a good idea for mankind, honestly,

00:37:05   and I don't mean this in any hyper-herpabolic sense

00:37:08   of drama, I just don't think humans are meant to,

00:37:13   from all political spectrums,

00:37:15   from all socioeconomic spectrums,

00:37:18   from all geographic spectrums around the world,

00:37:22   are all meant to be in one global namespace community.

00:37:26   I don't think that's suited to human psychology,

00:37:30   I really don't, and I think that where it sort of seems

00:37:34   to have wound up, where Twitter's ultimate,

00:37:38   the one thing that has been stable for, I would say,

00:37:43   maybe the last seven years, I would peg it as around 2015,

00:37:48   where Twitter's sustainable thing

00:37:53   was becoming an outrage machine,

00:37:56   and regardless of what you get outraged about,

00:38:01   whether it's national politics,

00:38:03   whether it's identity politics, whether it's economics,

00:38:07   whether it's technical issues,

00:38:09   it found equilibrium at a state where you keep getting,

00:38:17   you keep encountering viewpoints that make you outraged,

00:38:21   and it is taking advantage of a human instinct of,

00:38:26   and you can see why we evolved this way,

00:38:30   where when you encounter something that makes you outraged,

00:38:33   you react emotionally, and emotions are engaging,

00:38:36   and it's just unpleasant emotions, unfortunately.

00:38:41   - There was like this super weird thing

00:38:42   that back in the days of Mobile Nations,

00:38:44   we had a website for every different platform,

00:38:47   so like the Google site, the Microsoft site, the Apple site,

00:38:49   and one of the things that I found remarkable

00:38:51   is that the people on the Apple site,

00:38:53   they mostly just stuck on the Apple site.

00:38:55   They were happy, they talked about the products they had,

00:38:57   but in waves, you had people who preferred Nokia came in

00:39:00   and just wanted to yell at them for using Apple products,

00:39:03   and then when Nokia went away, it was like,

00:39:05   got out of favor, it was Blackberry people,

00:39:07   and I think it was the same people

00:39:08   just migrating to wherever there was the not Apple,

00:39:10   and then they went to Windows Phone and Android,

00:39:13   and they would always come and yell at it,

00:39:15   and at times when, 'cause there was a time

00:39:17   when the accounts were unified, when they weren't,

00:39:19   the people who just liked to talk about the Apple stuff

00:39:21   were happy, but the people who only wanted to yell

00:39:23   at other people were so upset,

00:39:25   because they no longer had a place to go and yell at people,

00:39:28   and I wonder if we lose this global system,

00:39:31   the people who are just happy, like discussing,

00:39:33   I don't know, Star Wars or Star Trek or whatever it is,

00:39:35   will have their own little communities,

00:39:37   and they'll just be happily discussing it,

00:39:38   but the people who just wanted to go to war every day

00:39:41   will have nowhere left to go,

00:39:42   and ultimately, they will have seen

00:39:43   to their own dissatisfaction.

00:39:46   - Yeah, so, yeah, that's well said,

00:39:50   and it's, we keep, we collectively as people

00:39:55   are learning a lot about human psychology

00:40:00   in very short order, because we've, in the internet era,

00:40:04   we've built systems that simply have no possible analogy

00:40:09   to the pre-internet, to pre-internet life.

00:40:12   There's just, there's no comparison.

00:40:16   There's no way that there's anything,

00:40:18   anything like Twitter was possible in the analog world.

00:40:22   It doesn't even make any sense.

00:40:23   I can't even imagine some kind of steampunk sci-fi

00:40:27   equivalent, and it turns out we're not hooked up.

00:40:31   There's a good reason for that, right,

00:40:32   and there's a good reason that humans segment themselves

00:40:35   naturally into communities, and that you can be a member

00:40:39   of multiple communities, based on your work,

00:40:42   based on your interests, based on your religion,

00:40:45   your family, there's all sorts of ways--

00:40:46   - Your sports team, the kind of food you're into.

00:40:48   - Right, right, right, or just being by yourself,

00:40:53   a community of one, but a community of everyone doesn't work,

00:40:59   and that's the ultimate lesson, and so I also feel that,

00:41:04   so I think that's one reason Twitter's never gonna

00:41:06   be replicated, and that Mastodon is never going to grow,

00:41:09   and I think that the creators of Mastodon

00:41:11   would be the first ones to say, yeah, that's good,

00:41:12   we don't want to be as big as Twitter,

00:41:15   and we don't want that, so the naysayers on Mastodon,

00:41:20   and I have my doubts still about some aspects of it,

00:41:23   and there's things I don't wanna, I won't belabor,

00:41:26   but it's clearly right now the best we have

00:41:29   as an alternative, but I definitely think, though,

00:41:31   that going into it without any sort of thing

00:41:34   where it's going to be a mega platform,

00:41:36   and there's no VC, it doesn't make sense,

00:41:40   because it isn't centralized, right,

00:41:41   and so all of these problems are avoided,

00:41:43   and a lot of the criticism is like, yeah,

00:41:45   but they're never gonna get to a billion users,

00:41:46   and it's like, yeah, that's the point, they shouldn't.

00:41:49   - Well, I don't know about you, but like,

00:41:50   'cause I work remotely, I've worked remotely

00:41:52   for the last 12 years, and in that time,

00:41:55   I was always in, previously, the Mobile Nation Slack,

00:41:57   and the Creator Slack that I'm in,

00:41:59   and then Creator Discord groups, I have Work Gchat now,

00:42:02   and those are all small communities,

00:42:04   but those have become my water cooler now,

00:42:07   just because I haven't been using Twitter as much,

00:42:09   and it is a very different vibe,

00:42:11   but it's one that's seized to a similar need

00:42:13   of having a communal experience with people.

00:42:16   - Yeah.

00:42:17   All right, let me take a break here,

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00:45:10   - Quick show. - Famous last words.

00:45:13   I do think that the year in review is actually going to be,

00:45:15   I think we can cover quickly,

00:45:19   because I actually think, well, you know, spoilers,

00:45:22   but I actually think that maybe Apple's 2022 year in review

00:45:26   is that it's the year that the COVID and the lockdown

00:45:29   finally caught up to them.

00:45:31   I'm not saying it was a bad year or off year,

00:45:33   but I was looking at it for the notes,

00:45:35   and I'm like, this is, you know,

00:45:37   and of course I always come into these

00:45:39   fabulously prepared, right, Rene?

00:45:41   - Same, yeah. (laughs)

00:45:42   - Yeah.

00:45:43   But I have to say, it's like, hey,

00:45:46   there's actually not that much to talk about, so let's see.

00:45:48   But one more bit of news before we keep going,

00:45:51   a couple bits of news.

00:45:52   I want to talk a little bit about Freeform,

00:45:55   which is a new app Apple has just launched

00:45:58   with the latest updates to the Mac and iOS platforms

00:46:01   last week.

00:46:01   They did show it at WWDC when it shipped last week.

00:46:06   I saw an awful lot of people saying the same thing,

00:46:08   which was, hey, I sort of forgot about this,

00:46:10   because I kind of feel that the demo,

00:46:13   not that it was a bad demo at WWDC,

00:46:17   but it was intermixed with,

00:46:20   it was Craig Federighi and a bunch of people

00:46:22   on his software team, including friend of the show, Lop.

00:46:26   - Yes.

00:46:27   - Michael Lop was there,

00:46:28   referred to only by his last name, Lop.

00:46:30   But it was, you know, a bunch of coworkers,

00:46:33   the gimmick of the demo is a bunch of coworkers

00:46:37   planning a team retreat, I believe.

00:46:40   You know, like go to some place where you can swing on ropes

00:46:42   and--

00:46:43   - You can wear your tracksuits and just hang out.

00:46:46   - Right, wear your tracksuit and hang out.

00:46:48   But it was all, the demo was sort of mixed together

00:46:51   with FaceTime and iMessage

00:46:56   and sort of Freeform in the middle.

00:46:59   And even as somebody who's, you know,

00:47:01   obviously watches these keynotes professionally

00:47:04   and is to study the details as intricately as I can,

00:47:09   I'm not sure if five minutes after the keynote,

00:47:12   if I was sure that Freeform was going to be an app

00:47:15   or if it was going to be a new feature

00:47:17   built into iMessage and FaceTime.

00:47:20   - Yeah, I think they were trying to show that it was like,

00:47:22   'cause they went to great pains to integrate iMessage

00:47:24   and FaceTime so you could move seamlessly

00:47:26   between group chats and group FaceTime.

00:47:28   And this seemed like the note board

00:47:30   that they were giving you to keep track of things

00:47:31   while you were talking or texting.

00:47:33   And it could either be integrated or its own thing.

00:47:36   - Right, but it's out now, I like it.

00:47:39   It is interesting, I think there's, you know,

00:47:43   the other hand, Apple doesn't come out

00:47:44   with new apps very often, right?

00:47:47   I would say the last time they came out

00:47:49   with a new app along these lines was Clips,

00:47:51   which still exists, it is still a thing.

00:47:54   - And Voice Memo, not Voice Memo,

00:47:56   the songwriting version.

00:47:57   I forget what it's called now,

00:47:59   but it like disappeared rapidly.

00:48:01   - Yeah, well, Clips is still around and Clips,

00:48:04   I still say, I know it doesn't seem to get a lot of use,

00:48:07   it doesn't seem to have a lot of uptake,

00:48:09   but I would still encourage everybody,

00:48:11   anybody who's interested in user interface design

00:48:14   to open it up every once in a while and look at it.

00:48:16   'Cause I do think it's a fascinating app design-wise.

00:48:21   - I kind of see-- - It's terrific,

00:48:23   they just shipped a square app

00:48:24   in the age of vertical social.

00:48:26   - Yep, yep, that's part of it.

00:48:29   And I think the other part of it is that

00:48:33   the built-in tools for the networks where you share stuff,

00:48:41   it's hard to beat them, right?

00:48:44   So like creating your TikTok in TikTok at .app

00:48:49   or creating whatever you're making for Instagram

00:48:53   within instagram.app,

00:48:55   it's hard to get past that.

00:48:59   And I know people use other third-party software

00:49:01   to create content for those networks,

00:49:04   but Clips is, it never, it hasn't,

00:49:08   I don't wanna spend too much time on Clips,

00:49:10   but it's like a social network creation tool

00:49:13   in need of its own social network.

00:49:16   - Enough more than what the camera tools provide.

00:49:19   'Cause otherwise you'd need Final Cut or Premiere

00:49:21   or something, you're not gonna use Clips.

00:49:23   - Right, but Freeform is, if you haven't checked it out,

00:49:26   it is fundamentally, it's very interesting to me.

00:49:30   'Cause I've always been a fan of canvas-based apps.

00:49:33   This goes back to my background in graphic design

00:49:36   and really, really going deep and being,

00:49:39   for a large number of years earlier in my life,

00:49:43   QuarkXPress was my jam.

00:49:45   'Cause I just loved the metaphor.

00:49:47   And back when QuarkXPress versus PageMaker

00:49:51   was still a debate, I was firmly in the QuarkXPress camp

00:49:55   because it stuck more to the basic canvas model

00:49:59   where, okay, you create a page size.

00:50:01   And this is where Freeform breaks apart.

00:50:04   Whereas in the desktop era, page size mattered.

00:50:07   There had, you know, eight and a half by 11 or 11 by 17,

00:50:12   but there had to be some sort of,

00:50:14   well, this is how big it would be when you print it.

00:50:16   And you'd make this and then you would drop boxes

00:50:20   onto the canvas and the boxes could contain different types.

00:50:24   You could create a box that would create an image

00:50:27   and then you would fill the image with an image

00:50:29   somewhere in your file system.

00:50:31   Or the box could be text, of course.

00:50:33   And you would fill the image, you could either type the text

00:50:36   or you could import from a document.

00:50:39   For some number of years, there was, you know,

00:50:41   while we chased the dream, there was the publish

00:50:44   and subscribe stuff where you could connect the text box

00:50:48   to a document and if the document changed

00:50:51   after you first imported, the changes would reflow live

00:50:55   into the thing that it felt very futuristic at the time.

00:50:58   Never really worked well enough to get most people I knew

00:51:03   who were in even a professional setting to go away

00:51:07   from the numbered revisions to the file.

00:51:11   Final, you know, Renee's column final,

00:51:14   Renee's column final final, Renee's column final final final.

00:51:19   Which one do you have?

00:51:22   Do you have final or final final?

00:51:24   I've got, I've just got final.

00:51:26   Oh no, you need final final.

00:51:27   - I have final JG edits.

00:51:28   - Yeah, I need final JG edits final.

00:51:32   But it's a great metaphor for design.

00:51:35   And then you can move the boxes around

00:51:36   and you can connect them and you can drag other things out

00:51:39   and create lines and rules.

00:51:40   And that's, you know, basically freeform.

00:51:42   Except the canvas is unlimited,

00:51:47   so there's no page size.

00:51:49   And the other big metaphor change

00:51:51   is it's not document-based.

00:51:53   You don't create a new document

00:51:55   and then have a document somewhere where you need to save it

00:51:58   whether it's local on your machine or in your iCloud

00:52:01   or on your Dropbox.

00:52:03   It's more of a library app where, you know,

00:52:06   the same way like Apple Notes,

00:52:09   I guess is probably the app that is the most familiar

00:52:12   to the most people where your notes aren't corresponding

00:52:17   to individual files anywhere in the file system.

00:52:20   They're just in a library that is managed by the software

00:52:25   and the connection between what's yours and what's shared

00:52:30   is part of the design of the system.

00:52:34   Which is to say it is built for the modern era, right?

00:52:36   Documents as objects in the file system are,

00:52:40   they're never gonna go away.

00:52:42   You know, I still use them, I'm sure you use them,

00:52:44   I'm sure just about everybody who listens to this show

00:52:46   still uses them and depends on them for some things.

00:52:49   But going forward, it's a much more modern,

00:52:52   forward-thinking way to not worry about that.

00:52:56   That's just an implementation detail

00:52:57   and it's just a board or a,

00:53:01   I don't know what we call the ones in freeform.

00:53:03   I don't know what they're called, but it works.

00:53:06   You can share and right out of the gate,

00:53:07   it lets you share a space with other people

00:53:11   using just their iCloud ID, very much the way

00:53:14   that you can collaboratively edit Apple Notes

00:53:17   with somebody else and it's very Apple, you know,

00:53:21   the more of those features something like this debuts with,

00:53:24   the better they are in my opinion

00:53:27   because when you take an old thing

00:53:30   and then try to add new systems like collaborative editing,

00:53:33   which is complicated, right?

00:53:35   I mean, you don't even have to be a programmer

00:53:36   to think about the ways that letting two people edit

00:53:39   the same document of any type at the same time is, huh,

00:53:44   that you could see how that would get tricky pretty quick

00:53:47   as a programming task.

00:53:49   I think it's pretty neat and I can't think of anything else

00:53:51   quite like it and I'm really,

00:53:53   I'm glad to see Apple still coming up with ideas like that.

00:53:57   Do I wanna bet on whether it's going to become a hit

00:54:00   or is it really gonna languish a bit like clips?

00:54:05   It's hard to say, right?

00:54:06   I don't know, what do you think?

00:54:08   - I think it's like often the strengths are the weaknesses

00:54:11   or the blessings are the curses

00:54:12   and I think one of these examples

00:54:14   is that it is so tightly integrated into messages

00:54:16   and FaceTime that it makes it almost a no brainer

00:54:19   for people who are incredibly immersed in the ecosystem

00:54:21   to just use it, like it's similar to Apple Notes.

00:54:23   We're doing the show notes in free form today

00:54:25   but we've done them in Apple Notes previously

00:54:28   and it's incredibly easy to share them and use them

00:54:30   but because it's bound,

00:54:31   because it is so deeply meshed in the ecosystem,

00:54:34   it means there's no real use beyond this.

00:54:36   Like there's no green bubble of friends for your free forms

00:54:40   and that's gonna mean that in some capacity,

00:54:41   professionally or personally,

00:54:42   you're gonna run into a wall where it's gonna make sense

00:54:45   to share something that is maybe web-based instead

00:54:49   or maybe open source or multi-platform instead

00:54:52   and so it's a question of iMessage is so good

00:54:56   for people who, for families or friend groups

00:54:58   that have messaging that everyone just uses it

00:55:00   to the extent that it's one of the most popular

00:55:02   messaging solutions in North America.

00:55:04   FaceTime, it's almost like the default

00:55:06   when people talk about it on TV, FaceTime.

00:55:08   This could end up being that

00:55:10   but I think when it comes down to documents

00:55:11   and being able to share them,

00:55:12   a lot of people are deeply invested in stuff

00:55:15   that's web-based at this point.

00:55:17   - Yeah and there is a webby type feel to free form.

00:55:21   By the way, did you add anything

00:55:23   to our shared free form board for this?

00:55:25   - No, I was terrified because you had several links in there

00:55:28   before the year in review

00:55:29   and I figured if I put anything more in there,

00:55:31   we would just never get to year in review.

00:55:33   - Do me a favor and just add something

00:55:35   'cause it occurred to me as I fired it up

00:55:38   and I'm looking at it for the show, I'm like,

00:55:41   'cause if Renee has been adding to this,

00:55:43   I'm not getting them and I guess we should talk

00:55:47   about the fact that this isn't working.

00:55:49   - No, it's 100% working.

00:55:50   - Why did they make it?

00:55:56   I think that the only reason they made it

00:55:58   is that somebody within Apple sort of had the idea for this

00:56:02   and the more they talked about it

00:56:04   with other people at Apple,

00:56:05   the people are like, yeah, this is a good idea,

00:56:07   we could do this.

00:56:08   I believe, I don't know and of course,

00:56:10   Apple famously doesn't really give a lot of individual credit

00:56:13   to the people who conceive of and engineer ideas

00:56:16   but my understanding is that it's people,

00:56:19   I don't know if they're formerly of the iWork team

00:56:22   or they're still on the iWork team

00:56:24   but it's people who nearing and design-wise

00:56:27   have worked on pages and numbers and keynote

00:56:30   and their collaborative features

00:56:33   and building this from scratch

00:56:35   and it must, I think it works better conceptually

00:56:39   'cause again, pages, numbers and keynote

00:56:42   are fundamentally anchored in the old metaphor

00:56:45   of the truth is a document that you save somewhere

00:56:50   in a file system somewhere

00:56:53   and yes, you can add people to it

00:56:55   but trying to make an online live collaboration thing

00:57:00   that is fundamentally rooted in a file

00:57:02   that is somewhere on a system is, it's a mismatch

00:57:07   and I think that's why Google Docs have always worked better

00:57:10   for collaborative editing than things

00:57:14   that are more rooted in the file system

00:57:17   because the Google Docs natural isn't really a file,

00:57:23   it's a URL that creates the illusion of being a file

00:57:27   but if you really want it to be a file,

00:57:28   you've got to take a snapshot and export.

00:57:31   - Yep, 100% and that's why I think that famous graph

00:57:34   that Steve Jobs stood in front of when he was announcing

00:57:36   iCloud showed the devices and something going up

00:57:39   and then copies of them coming back down

00:57:41   rather than something being propagated from the cloud.

00:57:44   - Yeah, let's see where Freeform goes

00:57:49   but I kind of have a feeling

00:57:50   that Apple is committed to this,

00:57:52   I think they think it's a good idea,

00:57:53   I think they're going to keep iterating on it

00:57:56   and it's going to be there

00:57:57   and it's also like many, many, many things

00:58:00   in the world of software,

00:58:01   it's hard to figure out the true appeal of it

00:58:05   until you need it and then all of a sudden

00:58:06   when you do need, it's like something

00:58:08   for everybody out there, it's like yeah,

00:58:10   I'll bet a lot of people have done what I did

00:58:11   which is sort of fire it up and kick the tires a little

00:58:15   and import this and import that

00:58:17   but you don't really have a thing

00:58:18   you really want to do with it yet

00:58:21   and it's like when you actually do have that thing

00:58:23   you really want to do,

00:58:25   then all of a sudden you'll be like,

00:58:26   hey, this is actually awesome,

00:58:28   my wife and I were redecorating our living room

00:58:32   and put a bunch of pictures of,

00:58:36   sort of thing that maybe people have done on Pinterest

00:58:38   or something like that but like,

00:58:39   hey, let's just share a bunch of photos

00:58:41   of other rooms we like and we could doodle on them

00:58:44   with an Apple pencil on an iPad and say,

00:58:47   ignore this, I'm not talking about art on the walls like this

00:58:51   I'm just talking about the color of the paint.

00:58:53   - So I do have a conspiracy theory though along those lines

00:58:56   and that is like I think a lot of the stuff Apple's done

00:58:58   over the last seven plus years has been prep work

00:59:01   for when they get into VR and AR more seriously

00:59:04   especially all the sharing emoji and FaceTime

00:59:07   and iMessage groups and this to me makes sense

00:59:11   when you're starting to talk about that world in the future

00:59:13   where you might just be walking,

00:59:15   like you and Amy walking through a room saying,

00:59:18   what do you wanna do with this

00:59:18   and you both put on your glasses

00:59:20   and you start moving things around

00:59:21   and freeform is an actual 3D environment that you share

00:59:25   like the counter antidote for Facebook horizons

00:59:30   where it's something personal and malleable.

00:59:32   - Maybe, who knows, I'm not quite sure

00:59:35   how this would look in VR but you know,

00:59:39   I don't know how anything's gonna look in VR.

00:59:41   - Same.

00:59:42   - I don't have too much more to say about it

00:59:44   but I'm glad that it's there

00:59:45   and I guess if I had to bet,

00:59:48   I'm gonna bet that it'll be to some degree,

00:59:51   I think it's gonna stick.

00:59:52   I think people when they encounter something

00:59:54   where they need something like this

00:59:56   or could use something like this,

00:59:58   are going to, it'll be a continual source of discovery

01:00:01   where months from now or a year from now,

01:00:03   somebody's gonna be like, yeah, I never used it

01:00:05   but then I tried freeform and it was perfect

01:00:07   for planning a vacation or something like that.

01:00:09   - Longer than a head of lettuce,

01:00:10   probably longer than music memos,

01:00:12   hopefully as long as clips.

01:00:14   - There is something weird, this is John Siracusa's gripe

01:00:17   on ATP was the fact that if you really just wanna scribble

01:00:21   on the board, you'd need an Apple Pencil

01:00:24   and there's no way to just scribble on the Mac

01:00:27   with your mouse which does seem like a strange omission

01:00:32   and it's kind of hard not to see how,

01:00:37   I don't know, not to suspect that somewhere

01:00:40   they're like the only good way to scribble is with a pencil

01:00:44   and therefore you need an iPad to do it.

01:00:48   I don't know, it's sort of an Apple--

01:00:50   - They just didn't get around to it yet.

01:00:52   - Yeah, or maybe they just, never underestimate

01:00:55   what simply is we did not get around to it yet

01:00:58   and Apple Pencil support on iPad was like a must be

01:01:02   in 1.0 feature and scribbling from the iPhone

01:01:06   without a pencil or from the Mac without even a touchscreen

01:01:10   are coming later and of course--

01:01:12   - Cut and paste third year problems.

01:01:14   - Right, and it is of course Apple

01:01:17   so we don't have any kind of roadmap public

01:01:20   of oh, don't forget, we're gonna add this, that

01:01:22   and the other thing.

01:01:23   I guess the other weird thing that strikes me about it

01:01:25   is the fact that the sticky notes have to be square

01:01:28   which I guess relates to what people think of

01:01:32   as sticky notes in the real world which are square

01:01:34   but you can grow them as big or as small as you want

01:01:39   and so by being able to grow them,

01:01:41   they're already not skeuomorphic, right?

01:01:44   You can't go and buy paper sticky notes

01:01:47   and stretch them to make them bigger

01:01:49   so once you can stretch them, why not let me stretch them

01:01:53   to make it longer or wider if that's what suits the content?

01:01:57   It seems slightly limiting that they have to be square

01:02:01   but that's a minor detail.

01:02:05   - Yeah, minimal shippable product.

01:02:07   - Yeah, well let's just jump right in without a break

01:02:10   to the last thing on my news to cover

01:02:13   and this is serendipity that you're on the show

01:02:15   'cause I know you've had a keen interest in this.

01:02:18   You and I have talked about this on the show.

01:02:21   As many times as I've talked about the same thing

01:02:23   over and over again, you and I have talked about Apple

01:02:25   and backups and security and end-to-end encryption

01:02:29   and Apple, here we are, it's December,

01:02:31   usually the slow month but Apple actually has had some news

01:02:35   in addition to freeform.

01:02:37   The bigger news in my opinion is what Apple is calling

01:02:41   iCloud Advanced Data Security and in my show notes,

01:02:45   I only have one word and it is finally.

01:02:47   - Yeah, it deserves one.

01:02:49   - But it is an ironic finally where I'm not complaining

01:02:54   that it has taken them as long as they have.

01:02:56   Do I wish they had gotten to this point sooner?

01:02:59   I do, of course, because I think it is important

01:03:01   that it matters but I totally understand why they haven't

01:03:06   and I could see how if they opened,

01:03:11   if they invited you backstage metaphorically

01:03:14   and showed you every step of the way of the last 10,

01:03:18   maybe even more years of where they've moved iCloud security

01:03:23   that in some sense, it might be hard to imagine

01:03:30   how they could have moved faster.

01:03:32   - Yeah, it's also, it's one of those things where I think

01:03:35   everyone on Twitter tends to be a nerd

01:03:36   and because we're all on Twitter together,

01:03:38   we think everybody thinks the way that nerds think

01:03:40   and we think there's just a majority opinion

01:03:42   when really, it's a very small minority opinion

01:03:44   and we don't often think or empathize

01:03:46   with the larger community.

01:03:48   We think about, oh, everything has to be encrypted

01:03:51   because somebody might steal my XYZ

01:03:53   where for the vast majority of people, it's like,

01:03:55   oh my God, I forgot my password,

01:03:57   I'm never gonna get my baby pictures back

01:03:59   and that is the biggest harm or damage

01:04:01   that they could ever experience

01:04:03   and that's what used to have,

01:04:04   with the original version of iCloud,

01:04:06   you had to print out those recovery keys

01:04:08   and people lost them all the time and went to Apple

01:04:10   and Apple had to say, sorry, all that stuff is lost.

01:04:13   So the new version was more fail-safe than fail-secure

01:04:16   so that Apple could go in and recover those things

01:04:18   and yeah, it sucked for people who really did wanna use it

01:04:21   as a secure store for things that they would rather

01:04:24   lose the ability to access than ever have stolen

01:04:27   but that again is not a mainstream concern.

01:04:29   Mainstream people don't wanna lose things.

01:04:31   There's very few people who are targeted

01:04:32   for that kind of stuff.

01:04:34   So building that out is non-trivial.

01:04:36   I think we saw that with recovery contacts coming out.

01:04:39   I think that was a big step towards this

01:04:41   and just Apple finally figuring out a way

01:04:43   to make it optional because there's so many services

01:04:47   like this, Apple gets all the attention

01:04:48   but if you're accessing files on the web,

01:04:50   that's really complicated with full encryption.

01:04:52   Doing some of the things Dropbox or other storage providers

01:04:55   do really, really complicated if you're fully encrypted

01:04:58   and sometimes you've gotta make your own binary blob

01:05:00   on your computer and upload it

01:05:01   and then you can't retrieve files if you're like remote

01:05:04   and you wanna go back and just pull out a single file

01:05:06   from Ren's computer.

01:05:07   So big topic, really complicated but I'm really, really glad

01:05:11   that we have the option and I'm glad that the option

01:05:13   is not enabled by default because you have to go in there

01:05:16   and say, I am going to accept responsibility

01:05:19   for my own data loss.

01:05:20   Give me this, give me the recovery stuff,

01:05:22   I will manage this and then hopefully that's like

01:05:25   signifying that you're capable of doing

01:05:27   all that kind of stuff.

01:05:28   - Yeah, I guess I should have recap that the,

01:05:31   to me the centerpiece of Apple's new advanced

01:05:34   iCloud data security system is that backups

01:05:39   and your iCloud photo library are now can be

01:05:43   if you opt in end to end encrypted which is

01:05:48   and again, Apple has been, without them ever saying

01:05:52   we are building towards enabling end to end backup

01:05:56   encryption and iCloud photo library,

01:05:59   the clues have been there that they've been working

01:06:04   towards this and of course, they famously,

01:06:07   they make such a big deal out of privacy and security

01:06:09   and they've, to their credit, like when there was that

01:06:14   shooting in San Bernardino, California a couple years ago

01:06:18   and the FBI had a phone from one of the suspects

01:06:23   and couldn't access the contents of it and wanted Apple to,

01:06:28   again, I followed it closely.

01:06:31   I believe that the long story short of that

01:06:32   was what they wanted Apple to do was to create

01:06:35   a one-off version of iOS that they could,

01:06:38   that could, I don't even know if it's possible

01:06:40   to flash it onto the phone but to somehow get it

01:06:43   onto the phone without destroying the contents of the phone

01:06:47   but then once this new version of iOS had been installed,

01:06:50   it would allow them to circumvent the,

01:06:53   enter the device passcode to unlock the encrypted contents

01:07:00   that are stored on the phone and they stood their ground

01:07:04   and made the argument in as plain a language as they could

01:07:07   without, they certainly weren't seeking confrontation

01:07:11   with the United States Department of Justice

01:07:13   but they also weren't going to compromise

01:07:15   on doing what they believe was right

01:07:17   and doing what they believe is right

01:07:18   is not deliberately creating a backdoor

01:07:21   and just in a little way, like the fact that the contents

01:07:24   of our phones are encrypted on device and, you know,

01:07:29   they, it just, it is an enormous subdivision

01:07:34   of Apple's software engineering division

01:07:36   that is devoted to these features and it is,

01:07:41   it encapsulates in so many ways the Apple is at its best

01:07:45   at the intersection of hardware and software

01:07:48   and that only Apple can do this, right,

01:07:49   because then you get into the areas where like

01:07:52   the entire concept of a hardware secure enclave on device

01:07:57   is truly essential, there's no,

01:08:00   the way that they do the encryption of your data

01:08:02   on the device is all based on that and it's hand in hand.

01:08:07   - And I know some people are gonna quibble

01:08:08   because like end to end encryption,

01:08:10   so all the stuff that goes off the iPhone between us

01:08:12   and Apple is end to end encrypted in transit.

01:08:15   At rest, it's also end to end encrypted.

01:08:17   The only difference was for iCloud backup,

01:08:20   for things that, there's two sort of clients,

01:08:21   there was regular iCloud backup

01:08:23   and there was secure iCloud backup for like health data

01:08:26   and things like that, that was always separate

01:08:27   but the general iCloud data, it was encrypted end to end,

01:08:30   it's just that Apple had a copy of the key.

01:08:32   So we had a copy of the key on our device,

01:08:34   Apple had a copy of the key, that way if we lost our key,

01:08:38   we lost our phone, we forgot like

01:08:39   when we originally printed out those things, whatever,

01:08:41   we lost our password, forgot it,

01:08:43   they, you could go through this elaborate,

01:08:45   exhausting recovery process, prove ownership

01:08:48   and reclaim a copy of your data and that was only possible

01:08:51   and the side effect of that was that then it was subject

01:08:54   to subpoena because it existed

01:08:55   and Apple could gain access to it.

01:08:57   - Right. - And I think that,

01:08:58   it was never, like I know some people were like,

01:08:59   oh, the FBI told Apple to do this.

01:09:01   I think Craig said that on Joanna's video too,

01:09:03   like we were never asked to do this,

01:09:05   like this was a customer service issue, first and foremost

01:09:08   and now they can have both,

01:09:09   which I think is better for everybody.

01:09:11   - Right, and that's what you and I have speculated for years,

01:09:14   you and I have been in complete agreement

01:09:15   that the biggest holdup to enabling end to end,

01:09:19   true end to end, what I would say,

01:09:21   I would quibble with what I think,

01:09:22   I think you slightly misspoke,

01:09:24   where I think to qualify as end to end,

01:09:28   there can't be a key held in the middle.

01:09:31   - Yeah, that's fair. - Right?

01:09:33   So it's, it is, you're, and people who don't follow

01:09:37   this closely have been like, wait,

01:09:38   my backups weren't encrypted before?

01:09:40   No, well, they were encrypted.

01:09:42   - Well, they weren't on a drive

01:09:43   where anybody could just walk in and take them,

01:09:44   like if somebody walked and took it off the drive,

01:09:46   they were still encrypted.

01:09:47   - Right, they're encrypted, your device encrypts them

01:09:51   as the backup is going to iCloud,

01:09:53   so over the wire or through the air,

01:09:56   let's face it, is more common, especially for an iPhone.

01:09:59   Over the internet, it's encrypted and it goes to Apple

01:10:04   and it gets stored on Apple.

01:10:05   - Ultimately, a cloud server is just a box

01:10:08   somewhere in a data center.

01:10:10   It's a computer in a data center

01:10:11   with drives connected to it.

01:10:14   On those drives, the data is encrypted,

01:10:17   and then when it comes back to you,

01:10:20   because let's say you're restoring from a backup,

01:10:22   it is sent back over the drive, over the air,

01:10:26   over the internet, encrypted,

01:10:28   till your device receives it and decrypts it

01:10:30   so that it can restore the backup.

01:10:32   - Yeah, it's encrypted not end to end.

01:10:33   I misspoke about that part.

01:10:35   - But the difference is that Apple held keys,

01:10:38   and then therefore, if they were given a proper subpoena,

01:10:43   then they could be forced to hand over the keys and the data,

01:10:48   whereas now, if you enable advanced data,

01:10:51   I'm gonna get this right, what's it called?

01:10:53   Advanced data security.

01:10:55   Advanced data protection, well, whatever it's called.

01:10:57   You enable it, you opt in.

01:11:00   What Apple does is they throw away their key.

01:11:05   So one of the things,

01:11:07   because they've been building towards this for years,

01:11:10   is you don't have to, if you decide to opt in,

01:11:14   it's not like, oh, but now your entire iCloud photo library

01:11:19   is invalidated because you hadn't been using it

01:11:22   'cause advanced data security didn't exist before.

01:11:25   Now it does.

01:11:26   Now you've gotta re-upload your entire photo library.

01:11:30   No, you don't, because all they do is when you're like,

01:11:33   are you sure, are you really sure, okay, here you go,

01:11:36   they just throw away their key.

01:11:38   - And I believe you have to set up a recovery contact

01:11:41   or print out a recovery code

01:11:42   and put it in a safe deposit box

01:11:43   'cause I mean, before you can enable it.

01:11:45   - Right, you have to have some sort, you have to tell them,

01:11:48   but they can't verify that the person,

01:11:50   if you've said, yes, I've printed this thing out,

01:11:53   you told me to print it and put it in my safe

01:11:56   or a safe deposit box

01:11:58   or wherever you keep your secure documents,

01:12:00   but you have to have one of those things set up.

01:12:02   I believe you can have both.

01:12:03   You can both set up a,

01:12:06   and I think that having that emergency contact,

01:12:11   a spouse, a sibling, a trusted friend, a parent,

01:12:15   whoever it is who you trust, and you're saying,

01:12:18   if anything ever happens and I get locked out of my iCloud,

01:12:21   I would let Renee be a person who could vouch for me

01:12:25   and could let me back into my account just by you--

01:12:30   - And I wouldn't get any information.

01:12:31   I would just be able to let you back in.

01:12:33   - Right, you wouldn't be, yes,

01:12:35   you wouldn't have access to my iCloud photo library.

01:12:38   You would just be able to,

01:12:40   it turns you into a person who can do

01:12:42   what my other devices do, which is say, yes, this is me.

01:12:46   I know this code.

01:12:47   It's the numbers 123007.

01:12:50   Type it in and you're good to go.

01:12:54   Or you can have one of these,

01:12:56   I think they're like 28 characters, something like that,

01:12:58   just long enough to certainly be safe

01:13:01   from any kind of brute force attack

01:13:03   that you can print out and put somewhere.

01:13:07   Counterintuitively, I know Bruce Schneier

01:13:09   has made this argument more eloquently

01:13:11   than anybody probably ever could,

01:13:14   that people intuitively think printing out

01:13:18   something very important like that is terrible security.

01:13:22   Oh my God, the worst thing you could ever do

01:13:24   is write your passwords down in a book

01:13:27   or print out this thing that is the key

01:13:30   to the kingdom of your entire iCloud account.

01:13:32   But it turns out human beings are really good

01:13:35   at keeping physical objects secret, right?

01:13:38   Because we evolved in the physical world

01:13:41   over millions of years.

01:13:43   And we're good at imagining things like that

01:13:46   and good at understanding what's a safe place

01:13:49   to put this and what's not.

01:13:51   - Yeah, 100%. - Right?

01:13:52   And--

01:13:55   - Marriage licenses, birth certificates,

01:13:57   all sorts of documents, we're very good at keeping those.

01:13:59   - Right, and if you just keep it in a drawer in your bedroom

01:14:04   and that's as safe as it is, that's probably pretty safe.

01:14:08   And if you have an adversary who's in your bedroom

01:14:11   going through your drawers,

01:14:12   you've got a lot of problems, right?

01:14:14   I mean, perfect is the enemy of good enough sometimes.

01:14:19   - It reminds me of Dave Nainian

01:14:20   when I was asking him about encrypting backups

01:14:22   for like a super duper.

01:14:23   He's just like, do you know how many valuable things

01:14:25   you have in your house that somebody might wanna steal?

01:14:27   Your wedding photos and your kids' photos

01:14:29   are probably low on that list.

01:14:30   Just back them up normally and put them someplace safe.

01:14:33   - But back in the early days of going online

01:14:37   and having an online life and having multiple accounts,

01:14:40   I know, I certainly succumb to this personally.

01:14:44   At some degree, your human intuition

01:14:47   is that the safest place to keep a password is in your brain.

01:14:50   - Yeah. - Right?

01:14:52   I've got it, I've got it up here.

01:14:53   And here I am, imagine me, if this was a YouTube show

01:14:56   instead of an audio podcast, I'm doing that thing

01:14:58   where I'm tapping my forehead, right?

01:15:00   Ah, it's up here, it's all up here.

01:15:03   And that's exactly though the mentality

01:15:05   that the next step after that is,

01:15:08   well, I can't memorize 40 different passwords

01:15:10   and I certainly wouldn't remember which one goes to which,

01:15:12   so why don't I think of one really clever password

01:15:16   and I'll use that really clever password everywhere.

01:15:19   - Yeah, yes. - It made sense, I did it.

01:15:22   - Or that plus the name of the site,

01:15:23   nobody'll ever guess that.

01:15:25   - Oh, right, right, I did that.

01:15:27   I definitely did, and every once in a while,

01:15:29   I still run into some old thing

01:15:31   that I haven't logged into in a while

01:15:33   and I'm like, oh, yep, I gotta change that password.

01:15:36   That's, you know, haven't logged in here

01:15:38   in a couple of years, but here, let me do this,

01:15:41   let me make a new one-time password, there it is.

01:15:44   It's saved in my iCloud keychain or wherever else.

01:15:47   But you know, it wasn't, it was misguided,

01:15:51   but I don't think it was stupid.

01:15:53   And I think if we re-rolled the universe a thousand times,

01:15:57   everybody would do it a thousand times.

01:15:59   We'd go through an era when everybody had

01:16:01   like their favorite password and would reuse it.

01:16:03   And it's, it's like I said with Freeform,

01:16:07   not having to evolve out of a document-based legacy concept

01:16:14   and can start with a cloud-based, no documents,

01:16:18   it's all in the library idea from the start.

01:16:22   iCloud has had to move live with now billions of users,

01:16:27   but you know, for a very long time,

01:16:29   hundreds of millions of users from a system

01:16:33   that wasn't created with true end-to-end encryption in mind

01:16:38   to get to a place where it is.

01:16:42   But, and again, everybody seems happy that,

01:16:47   with Apple's announcement about advanced data protection.

01:16:50   - Well, I mean, everybody outside of law enforcement

01:16:52   and probably some nation states.

01:16:55   - Right, and it's also easy to,

01:16:58   the other thing that was, I think I wrote about it.

01:17:02   It was so clear a year ago that Apple's now abandoned,

01:17:07   because that was the other bit of news

01:17:09   that Craig Federighi told Joanna Stern in her interview

01:17:12   with him about this stuff for the Wall Street Journal,

01:17:15   that Apple has decided to not go forward

01:17:17   with all the CSAM scanning stuff

01:17:20   that they had announced last year,

01:17:22   that they've taken the criticism to heart

01:17:24   and that they're going to focus their efforts on,

01:17:26   insofar as CSAM material of putting their efforts

01:17:31   towards nipping it in the bud before it's even created.

01:17:34   - Yeah. - You know,

01:17:34   and there's things they can do to help in that regard.

01:17:37   But the idea was, if they're going to move,

01:17:40   the thinking I had last year was,

01:17:42   if they're going to move iCloud Photo Library

01:17:44   to be end-to-end encrypted, at least optionally,

01:17:48   they're trying to say here, but we're still,

01:17:50   even with end-to-end encryption,

01:17:52   without us holding the keys,

01:17:54   we're still taking this, that, and the other step

01:17:56   to keep CSAM material from being part of somebody's library.

01:18:01   Whether they were right to a,

01:18:03   I actually still think that it was not,

01:18:07   I don't think that what they were proposing was a bad idea.

01:18:09   I wasn't, I was not opposed to it.

01:18:12   I see the arguments against it,

01:18:16   but I'm in the middle where I actually think the system

01:18:20   that they were proposing was not going to,

01:18:23   if they had instituted it,

01:18:25   I don't think it would have led to the problems

01:18:27   that people were thinking that there would be.

01:18:29   I don't think, I don't think that they were going

01:18:32   to be weak to potential attacks where somebody

01:18:37   could create a false image that isn't actually

01:18:42   CSAM child pornographic content,

01:18:45   but it would match the fingerprint of one that is,

01:18:49   and then they would somehow maliciously insert it

01:18:51   into your iCloud Photo Library and do that 20 times

01:18:55   or 30 times or whatever the threshold was,

01:18:58   and then boom, your account is flagged.

01:19:01   'Cause even if they did that,

01:19:02   I thought that that human review step

01:19:04   where they would look at the image,

01:19:06   and if somebody can just insert,

01:19:09   if somebody wants to attack you in this way

01:19:12   and they have access and somehow can insert images

01:19:15   into your iCloud Photo Library,

01:19:17   why wouldn't they just put the actual

01:19:19   child pornographic material in your library

01:19:22   and let it be triggered? - I think a lot of that

01:19:23   was like, there's like one of the other side effects

01:19:26   of social media is that you have a lot of performative

01:19:28   desperation theater where people want to get attention

01:19:30   by making a lot of slippery slope arguments.

01:19:33   And I think some of them, like whether other countries

01:19:35   would try to impose their own databases.

01:19:37   There were concerns, I think the biggest one

01:19:39   for most people was just the emotional concern.

01:19:41   The idea that some part of your phone was no longer yours

01:19:43   was under control, and whether that's always been true

01:19:47   with system update processes or not,

01:19:49   it just felt like photos are mine, they're deeply personal,

01:19:51   and I don't like the idea of something being done

01:19:53   on my phone.

01:19:54   I always hoped it'd be a compromise solution

01:19:56   where either Apple would leverage the trusted intermediary

01:20:00   technology that they were doing with their VPN-like solution

01:20:03   where it would be done on a server in between you and Apple

01:20:06   so that Apple would have zero knowledge

01:20:07   but the bits wouldn't live on your phone

01:20:09   the same way they do now with the internet,

01:20:11   or that they would make a separate photos app

01:20:13   and say like, if you want your photos on your phone,

01:20:16   here's like the white icon version

01:20:17   and those phones are never going online,

01:20:19   but if you do want to make use of iCloud storage,

01:20:21   then you download the online yellow version or whatever,

01:20:24   and that one, you know that they're gonna go online

01:20:26   but they're gonna be scanned as they're going online,

01:20:28   and that way you can opt in or out,

01:20:30   like visibly opt in or out.

01:20:32   Realizing that's the word I was looking for.

01:20:36   - Yeah, that was sort of what I thought they were,

01:20:39   and I'll bet that when they said,

01:20:40   "Okay, we've taken your criticism to heart,"

01:20:43   I get it that it was sort of a philosophical,

01:20:46   not technical argument that people were offended

01:20:48   that it would be happening on their own devices

01:20:50   even if it's just fingerprinting.

01:20:52   - Right, I also though believe that there was no way

01:20:56   to get past people's fundamental misunderstanding

01:20:59   that they were not going to put a library of CSAM material

01:21:04   on everybody's phone for the checking,

01:21:06   just the fingerprints,

01:21:08   but I get it that people didn't even want the fingerprints.

01:21:11   Again, I'm not quite sure why that would bother me.

01:21:13   - It's like having a metal detector

01:21:15   on the door of your house instead of at the stadium

01:21:16   that you're gonna go watch the game at.

01:21:19   - I guess, I don't know, you know,

01:21:21   or like, I don't know, but I get it.

01:21:24   I think Apple listened.

01:21:25   I do think that, I'll bet that when, you know,

01:21:28   typical Apple, they took their time,

01:21:30   they said, "Okay, we're gonna listen.

01:21:32   "We're gonna put this on pause.

01:21:33   "We'll get back to you."

01:21:35   I'll bet that that is one of the things

01:21:37   they very strongly considered

01:21:38   was having these intermediary servers

01:21:41   and a two-step process where you connect to one,

01:21:45   this one connects to another,

01:21:46   but the one that does the processing

01:21:47   doesn't even know where it came from

01:21:49   and does the fingerprint checking

01:21:51   and then says, you know, this fingerprint is A-okay,

01:21:55   go ahead and upload it to iCloud Photo.

01:21:57   And I think that they ultimately said,

01:21:58   "You know what, why build all this stuff?

01:21:59   "Why don't we just skip it?"

01:22:01   You know, and then anybody who was gonna complain

01:22:04   and say, "Hey, you can't just let people

01:22:06   "end-to-end encrypt their photo library.

01:22:08   "What about, what if they're stashing

01:22:10   "horrible, horrible C-SAM material in their library?"

01:22:14   You know, they could say, "We tried.

01:22:15   "We had a proposal to look into this.

01:22:19   "We do care deeply about it,

01:22:21   "but your privacy is your privacy."

01:22:24   And this is one of those ways where they do,

01:22:26   like speaking to people at Apple

01:22:28   and getting briefed about it off the record,

01:22:30   that they do still look at it in the way that,

01:22:33   back in the day, pre-Cloud,

01:22:36   everything that you did on your computer was on a disk,

01:22:39   and the disk was in front of you somewhere,

01:22:41   whether it's a floppy disk or a hard disk or something.

01:22:44   And those disks were yours,

01:22:45   and it was up to you how secure they were

01:22:47   and how secure the room they were in was

01:22:50   and how, you know, and that all they're trying to do

01:22:55   in the modern digital age is put that level

01:22:58   of user control over the data back into their hands

01:23:03   if they want it.

01:23:05   The other complaint that I've seen people have,

01:23:07   I think the EFF, who I believe, you know,

01:23:09   is almost entirely on the right on this,

01:23:11   but like, I don't think I'm putting words

01:23:13   in the EFF's mouth that they were like,

01:23:16   "This is all great, except it shouldn't be opt-in.

01:23:18   "It should be the default for everybody."

01:23:22   I think that I disagree with that,

01:23:25   and I'm not quite sure.

01:23:26   Maybe someday it will be.

01:23:28   Maybe they'll get to the point,

01:23:30   and they'll maybe with 10 years of trusted use

01:23:35   of using other people you know in your family

01:23:39   as your trusted backup contact

01:23:42   to get back into your account.

01:23:44   But the customer service angle of this,

01:23:47   where clearly there are way more Apple customers

01:23:52   who come into the store and say,

01:23:55   "You know, I left my phone in a cab,

01:23:57   "and I don't know my iCloud password.

01:24:02   "I've forgotten it.

01:24:03   "I've tried to get in on the web 10 times,

01:24:07   "and it's locked me out.

01:24:08   "I don't know what to do.

01:24:09   "I have an iCloud backup, and I want to replace the phone

01:24:12   "that I just lost, but I don't know how to get my backup."

01:24:16   There is a process you can go through,

01:24:17   and it's obvious, you know.

01:24:19   It seems anecdotally, you know, in terms of like,

01:24:22   when's the last time you heard of anybody

01:24:24   getting ripped off this way?

01:24:26   You know, in other words,

01:24:27   that somebody comes into an Apple store,

01:24:28   and they're not me, and they're somehow saying,

01:24:30   "I'm John Gruber, and I," you know.

01:24:32   - It's an arduous process, though.

01:24:33   Like, they're very stringent about you proving

01:24:36   that you own the device and stuff, yeah.

01:24:39   - Right, it's not like,

01:24:40   "Oh, I have a 215 Genius Bar appointment,

01:24:43   "and after three minutes of explaining my problem,

01:24:46   "boom, the Genius behind at the Apple store

01:24:49   "has my full decrypted Apple."

01:24:53   Right, but it is possible.

01:24:56   And my understanding is that all of our speculation

01:24:59   that it's more common than you might think

01:25:02   has all been true, you know,

01:25:04   including just people who listen to the show

01:25:06   who work at Apple retail stores,

01:25:08   and they're like, "Yeah, it happens every," you know.

01:25:09   So at least once every day,

01:25:11   somebody comes in with this problem.

01:25:12   Whereas the problem of some foreign state

01:25:17   with an apparatus has hacked into Apple's cloud servers

01:25:24   and taken the key to your backup

01:25:28   and stolen your data that way, you know.

01:25:31   - It's, yeah, it's very small.

01:25:34   - Very small.

01:25:35   There are fewer people who need this

01:25:38   than there are people, typical consumers,

01:25:41   who probably shouldn't turn it on.

01:25:42   So I kind of feel, wouldn't be surprised

01:25:45   if this is the natural end state.

01:25:47   The only way I could see it becoming a little bit more

01:25:50   likely to be turned on by typical people

01:25:53   would be if like next year or the year after

01:25:56   or at some point in the next handful of years,

01:25:59   it becomes part of the onboarding process

01:26:01   for a new device or a new software update, you know,

01:26:06   that you install iOS 18 two years from now.

01:26:10   And after the installation's complete

01:26:13   and you go through those first run screens, you know,

01:26:16   like where you set up Face ID or Touch ID

01:26:19   and you opt into sharing your analytics

01:26:23   with Apple and third-party and developers

01:26:25   and this, whatever other, you know,

01:26:28   there might be a time where they put there,

01:26:29   do you want to turn on advanced data security?

01:26:32   Here's what it means.

01:26:34   It means you're on your own and Apple will never,

01:26:37   literally mathematically, cryptographically

01:26:39   cannot help you restore your data.

01:26:41   You know, do you want to do this and make the button,

01:26:44   the big blue default button be not to use it?

01:26:49   You know, use standard security.

01:26:50   - I could see that if there was like,

01:26:51   if there was a radical Supreme Court decision

01:26:53   or like mega Patriot Act sort of bill passing

01:26:57   where people's, where at large scale

01:26:59   people's data was at jeopardy.

01:27:00   But otherwise, like you said,

01:27:01   like let people have the option

01:27:03   and it's hard to make informed decisions about this.

01:27:05   Reminds me of that scene in West Wing

01:27:06   where they're like nuclear deterrence

01:27:07   is like a conversation that you can't just have casually.

01:27:10   It involves incredibly deep understanding

01:27:11   and not people are just equipped to have it.

01:27:13   You know, it's like one of those things.

01:27:14   Like it's, I did a whole 15 minute video

01:27:16   on like the pros and cons of encryption

01:27:19   versus non-encryption and what kind of data

01:27:21   you should use for each.

01:27:22   And it really does vary based on your threat level,

01:27:24   your model, what kind of data we're talking about.

01:27:26   It is not like just like, it made to sound

01:27:29   like just everybody should do it all the time

01:27:31   because that's what info sec nerds tell you.

01:27:33   But people who live in backup and recovery worlds

01:27:35   who deal with customers all the time

01:27:37   will give you a very, very different story.

01:27:38   So I just, I would just urge people to really assess

01:27:41   what kind of dangers they face and whether,

01:27:43   if you're more, if you would be more upset

01:27:45   if you lost access yourself, then have it stolen.

01:27:48   Don't use the encryption.

01:27:49   If you'd be more damaging to you if things got stolen,

01:27:52   then if you lost them yourself,

01:27:53   then turn on the encryption.

01:27:55   And my favorite thing though, John,

01:27:57   is that none of this was live tweeted over 24 hour period

01:28:01   by Craig Federighi during a major sports championship.

01:28:04   This whole decision process was years in the making.

01:28:07   - Have you turned it on?

01:28:08   I have not because I literally can't

01:28:10   because I still have too many devices

01:28:11   that aren't running the latest OS.

01:28:13   - Not in Canada yet.

01:28:15   - Oh, that's right, yeah.

01:28:17   - Yeah, but I probably won't turn it on because again,

01:28:18   like most of my stuff is like family memories

01:28:21   that I don't wanna lose access to.

01:28:22   And I could set up the stuff, but saying that now,

01:28:24   I just painted a huge target on me.

01:28:26   So maybe I'll have to turn it on now,

01:28:27   but normally I wouldn't.

01:28:28   - I've been comfortable with the state

01:28:32   of my iCloud security for years,

01:28:33   so I'm comfortable keeping it.

01:28:35   But it would be more arduous for me to get rid

01:28:38   of all the devices that are still connected

01:28:40   to my iCloud account.

01:28:42   I mean, I guess what I should do is just go into iCloud

01:28:44   and kick a bunch of, through the web interface,

01:28:48   kick a bunch of old devices out.

01:28:50   And if I ever do wanna go back to using my iPhone 5S,

01:28:54   just sign back into iCloud.

01:28:56   But for the time being, I'm happy not doing it,

01:28:58   but I'm very glad that it exists.

01:29:00   It is, you know, and I'm happy to see

01:29:02   that Apple has been working on it.

01:29:04   All right, let me take-- - And if I was like

01:29:05   a college kid who was intent on running for president,

01:29:06   one day I'd turn it on in a heartbeat.

01:29:09   - Let me take a break here.

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01:31:04   Still not up to the year in review.

01:31:06   I just realized we didn't talk about Germin's whole thing

01:31:09   with the DMA.

01:31:10   This is why me thinking, hey, I don't need to do

01:31:13   a lot of episodes in December.

01:31:14   Well, guess what, there's a lot of stuff in December.

01:31:16   - Yeah, yeah. - But Mark Germin

01:31:18   had a spectacular report about Apple's internal efforts

01:31:23   to comply with the EU's new Digital Markets Act,

01:31:28   which I guess is signed.

01:31:30   I guess it's finalized.

01:31:32   It's going to be the law of the land.

01:31:33   They need to be in compliance by March of 2024.

01:31:36   And basically, they're working on how they're going

01:31:39   to allow sideloading and allow third-party app stores

01:31:43   within the letter of the law.

01:31:45   This DMA in the EU, they are unsure,

01:31:48   or at least Germin sources are unsure,

01:31:51   whether such features, whichever ones come to pass

01:31:56   and come to be in iOS, are going to apply only

01:32:00   to customers in the EU, where it's the law of the land

01:32:04   and what would be worldwide.

01:32:06   I wrote about this.

01:32:07   Jason Snell had a fantastic piece about it.

01:32:10   And ultimately, and again, it's Germin at his best.

01:32:14   I don't know who else would have gotten this story,

01:32:16   but he's got some details about who's leading up

01:32:18   the engineering inside the software division at Apple

01:32:22   and has some of the, just some of the questions,

01:32:26   even inside Apple.

01:32:27   I thought the other thing that was really interesting

01:32:29   about his report is that, almost just offhandedly,

01:32:33   but part of it was that the people working on it in Apple

01:32:36   aren't really happy to be working on it

01:32:38   because it doesn't really seem to them like

01:32:40   the sort of thing that they signed up to work at Apple

01:32:44   to do.

01:32:45   I guess that, and you know, I wrote about it.

01:32:49   I've talked about it on Dithering.

01:32:50   I don't want to spend tons of time here,

01:32:51   but having wasted a day, not wasted,

01:32:54   I keep complaining about it.

01:32:55   I'm glad I spent the time to read as much of the DMA

01:32:58   as I could.

01:32:59   - Yeah.

01:33:00   - I complain 'cause I don't like it.

01:33:01   And the more I think I understand it and understand

01:33:05   at least the words that they've written,

01:33:06   the worse I think it is as a law.

01:33:09   I think fundamentally, it is a law written by regulators

01:33:14   who do not understand what it is they're trying to regulate.

01:33:17   - The EU has a history of good intentions

01:33:19   with very bad implementations.

01:33:21   - Yeah, their intentions, I think, are fine, of course.

01:33:24   Well, I say of course, but you know,

01:33:25   you can imagine a government that has bad intentions.

01:33:28   I do think their intentions are good.

01:33:31   I don't think that what they've written is good.

01:33:33   And I'll just reiterate the thing I mentioned

01:33:35   in my article that compare and contrast this,

01:33:40   which is broad and ill-defined,

01:33:43   like what exactly does it mean

01:33:45   to have a third-party app store?

01:33:46   What does it mean to have sideloading?

01:33:48   And there's all sorts of ways it can be interpreted.

01:33:51   Compare and contrast with the law that they've passed

01:33:55   saying that if you make any of these type of devices,

01:33:58   cell phones and tablets and headphones,

01:34:00   and they charge via a port,

01:34:03   that port needs to be a USB-C type port

01:34:06   as of, I don't know, sometime in 2024.

01:34:09   - Yeah.

01:34:10   - I disagree with that regulation as law.

01:34:13   I don't think it's necessary,

01:34:15   and I think that the market was actually working.

01:34:17   I think that the era of having dozens

01:34:19   of different phone chargers and device chargers

01:34:22   for different devices is long past,

01:34:24   and that some of Apple's devices

01:34:28   have stuck with lightning for over 10 years,

01:34:31   as opposed to Apple having already moved them

01:34:34   to USB-C on their own, I don't really think is problematic.

01:34:38   I think that's the way the market works.

01:34:40   But at the very least, the law is clear,

01:34:43   and it's easy to understand, right?

01:34:45   If you make one of these type of devices,

01:34:48   and the device list is pretty clear,

01:34:49   and it charges via a port,

01:34:51   so that something that doesn't have a port

01:34:53   like Apple Watch that only charges inductively

01:34:56   doesn't need to add a USB-C port.

01:34:59   If it does have a port, though, that port needs to be USB-C.

01:35:02   - Whereas one of the ports has to be USB-C.

01:35:03   They could have both, famously.

01:35:05   - Right, you could have a, right,

01:35:06   you could have a proprietary port that also charges.

01:35:09   Again, so MagSafe is not illegal, right?

01:35:11   I mean, you know, we laugh, but you know,

01:35:13   Apple's laptops, which already do have USB-C,

01:35:16   don't have to get rid of MagSafe,

01:35:18   because it's not saying you only have to do it,

01:35:21   but it's easy to understand,

01:35:22   and you can understand what would be compliant

01:35:25   and what's not.

01:35:26   Whereas with this DMA, it is incredibly difficult,

01:35:30   in my opinion, I would say impossible,

01:35:32   just going from the letter of the law

01:35:34   to determine what would be in compliance

01:35:37   and what would not.

01:35:39   So, here's one question.

01:35:41   Here's a simple question.

01:35:42   Apple, last year, implemented app tracking transparency,

01:35:47   and this is, everybody's familiar with it now,

01:35:49   because everybody uses apps, and you've been asked,

01:35:51   you know, this app would like to track you

01:35:53   across other apps, would you like to ask,

01:35:56   would you like to allow that,

01:35:58   or would you like to ask the app not to track?

01:36:01   Everybody's familiar with this dialogue.

01:36:02   Everybody is, almost everybody is surely familiar

01:36:05   with the fact that it has seemingly led

01:36:08   to a significant revenue decline for Facebook,

01:36:10   most famously, but lots of other apps and companies

01:36:14   that are in the advertising market,

01:36:17   Google, perhaps, to some degree,

01:36:19   but not as much as Facebook,

01:36:20   that it's, as a direct result of this policy

01:36:23   and the number of people who choose ask not to track,

01:36:27   that revenue has declined, people get this.

01:36:30   What happens in the world of sideloading

01:36:32   if an app just says screw it,

01:36:35   if you use, or third-party app stores, right?

01:36:37   So let's just throw Facebook under the boat.

01:36:40   If Facebook comes out with a third-party

01:36:43   Facebook app store for iOS,

01:36:45   and you can get Facebook and Instagram and Messenger

01:36:49   and whatever other apps they might have or come out with,

01:36:53   you can get them from Facebook's app store, too,

01:36:56   and maybe their apps in Apple's app store

01:36:59   will start telling you, you know,

01:37:00   pushing you to switch to the Facebook app store,

01:37:03   and maybe they'll throw in some kind of reward for doing so.

01:37:07   Right, might literally bribe people, I don't know.

01:37:10   You know, offer them money, they offer teenagers--

01:37:12   - System scanning, right, exactly.

01:37:14   - They offered teenagers like 20 bucks to install a VPN

01:37:18   so that they could track

01:37:20   what teenagers were doing on their phones.

01:37:22   That's literally what they did.

01:37:23   I mean, they didn't even really hide it.

01:37:25   It wasn't like, oh, they got caught.

01:37:26   It was like, no, that was clear, you know?

01:37:28   No, that's what it said on the tin.

01:37:31   Well, what happens if they do that,

01:37:32   and their apps, you know, go back to tracking willy-nilly

01:37:36   and ignoring this, does Apple have the right

01:37:39   to pull their developer key

01:37:42   and keep those apps from working

01:37:44   'cause they're not in compliance

01:37:45   with app tracking transparency?

01:37:47   I mean, the app store is not just a store.

01:37:51   The app store is the point of enforced compliance

01:37:55   with platform policies, not just store policies.

01:38:00   Right, so the store policy that everybody's obsessed with,

01:38:03   and rightly so, I mean, 'cause money is important,

01:38:06   but the thing that everybody thinks about first and foremost,

01:38:08   but you're missing the larger picture

01:38:11   if it's all you think about,

01:38:13   is the 70/30 commission split, 85/15, you know,

01:38:16   after a year or for small companies up to a million dollars.

01:38:20   That part of app store compliance is clear.

01:38:23   That's the definition of a store is making money.

01:38:26   And so the commission on sales,

01:38:28   either sales of the app and game

01:38:30   or sales in-app purchase or in-app subscriptions

01:38:34   in the app or game is the store enforcing store policies.

01:38:39   But there's all sorts of other stuff in the app store

01:38:41   and the app store review process

01:38:43   that are enforcing platform policies for iOS system-wide,

01:38:48   like the fact that you can't use private APIs

01:38:51   and they have automated tools that detect

01:38:54   if an app submitted is using private APIs.

01:38:57   And before a human being even sees it,

01:39:00   if you just use a private API in your app

01:39:02   and you submit it for inspection by the app store,

01:39:06   it'll just bounce right back to you and say,

01:39:08   you know, you're using this private API

01:39:10   to see what's on the desktop behind your window.

01:39:13   That's not allowed.

01:39:14   Please fix this before you resubmit another bill.

01:39:16   What happens within the world of,

01:39:19   if this world is coming of side-loaded

01:39:22   and third-party app stores,

01:39:23   does Apple still get to enforce that somehow?

01:39:26   - Yeah, it's that interesting question

01:39:28   where a lot of people, like, we've talked about this,

01:39:31   but there are console models,

01:39:33   which Steve Jobs and Apple clearly wanted the iPhone to be,

01:39:36   where it's like a Nintendo or it's like a PlayStation

01:39:39   and it just has the things that are supposed to run on it

01:39:41   and it's not meant to be an open computing platform.

01:39:44   Although people argue now it is so popular and so powerful

01:39:46   that there's almost a moral imperative

01:39:48   for it to become an open compute platform.

01:39:51   And then you have the alternative,

01:39:52   which is Android or previously there were others,

01:39:55   like Android, which is much more like an open compute system.

01:39:57   And that the argument essentially is whether

01:40:00   each platform into itself has to be both things.

01:40:03   Like, on Android you can choose

01:40:04   to just use a Google Play Store,

01:40:06   or you can choose to sideload apps.

01:40:08   And Epic will tell you that they still don't work really well

01:40:11   with sideloaded apps, but whatever, you have those options.

01:40:14   Where with Apple, it's like you have the app store

01:40:16   or you have the web.

01:40:18   And for some people, that's not a bug, that's a feature.

01:40:20   And people will say, well, you still have the choice,

01:40:22   the same way you have it on Android.

01:40:24   But to your previous point, if enough powerful people

01:40:27   have enough powerful incentives,

01:40:28   there could be apps that people just believe

01:40:30   are fundamental to their use models.

01:40:33   And whether it's Facebook or a game,

01:40:35   or it's a school saying you have to download our thing

01:40:38   to run your tests, or whatever it is,

01:40:40   they could compel people to have to do this.

01:40:42   So I'm hoping like whatever it is,

01:40:46   it's one of those things where you have to literally

01:40:48   reboot the device to get it into a state

01:40:50   where you can start sideloading apps.

01:40:52   Because otherwise, people are gonna just find ways

01:40:54   to trick you into sideloading stuff all the time.

01:40:56   And it's gonna be the security nightmare

01:40:58   that Apple has often painted it to be.

01:41:01   - If we put aside the money,

01:41:04   and again, putting aside the money, we should come back to it.

01:41:06   I'm not saying everybody should forget about them.

01:41:08   But if you put aside the money,

01:41:10   and if they passed a law that just said

01:41:12   that a gatekeeper company,

01:41:15   by their definition of gatekeepers,

01:41:17   if they sort of put into law the Phil Schiller memo idea

01:41:22   from 10 years ago or more,

01:41:25   which was entered into the, as evidenced in the Epic case,

01:41:28   where when the app store started growing revenue-wise,

01:41:33   beyond what even Apple, its executives themselves

01:41:36   might have ever foreseen as possible,

01:41:39   Schiller floated the idea in a memo to the other executives

01:41:43   of what if we just said,

01:41:44   we'll cap our revenue from the app store

01:41:47   at let's just say a billion dollars a year,

01:41:50   and once we go past that,

01:41:52   then we'll just start lowering the commission rate

01:41:55   to keep it at a billion dollars.

01:41:56   So instead of 70/30, go to 25.

01:41:58   - Keep it at breakeven.

01:42:00   - You know, 25 and then 20.

01:42:03   And just, yeah, or keep it at, or a billion dollars, right?

01:42:06   A billion dollars isn't breakeven.

01:42:09   It's nice money, but then it won't just keep growing

01:42:11   and grow to a level where it could

01:42:14   pervert the company's motivations,

01:42:17   or corrupt the company's motivations.

01:42:20   And they could put something in law that says

01:42:22   that if you run an app store, your revenue is capped

01:42:25   at a certain level, or they could put into law that says,

01:42:28   if you charge a commission, that commission,

01:42:30   and you qualify as a gatekeeper company,

01:42:32   so like Panic wouldn't run into this with the playdate,

01:42:35   because they're so small, but that, you know,

01:42:38   they could say that it's capped at 15%,

01:42:41   or it's capped at 20%, or it's whatever.

01:42:44   They could do something like that.

01:42:45   But put aside the money, Apple,

01:42:48   this is what so many people who are hyper-focused

01:42:51   on the money don't see, is that Apple, across the company,

01:42:56   has reasons to want this control over the platform

01:42:59   in the name of customer experience.

01:43:02   And I bring this up, and there's some number of people,

01:43:06   again, Twitter being Twitter, it often happens there, but,

01:43:09   and I try to argue in good faith.

01:43:11   I'm not, you know, I don't own Apple stock

01:43:14   for professional reasons, you know,

01:43:15   just so that I never have to worry, you know,

01:43:17   am I hurting my own future, you know, retirement

01:43:21   by what I report on the company?

01:43:23   So it's not, I'm not doing this, because I,

01:43:25   and somehow, I don't make money when Apple makes more money

01:43:28   through the App Store, but I totally,

01:43:31   what I see that other people don't see is that

01:43:33   the reason people thrive on this platform,

01:43:36   so many people thrive on this platform,

01:43:38   is because of these constrictions,

01:43:41   these restrictions that are so different

01:43:43   than the world of Mac and Windows and other PCs.

01:43:47   Even Apple's own platform, the Mac,

01:43:48   that people are so much more comfortable

01:43:53   knowing that they can't, and that it's,

01:43:55   and also, they just understand it.

01:43:57   It is an understandable closed loop.

01:44:00   - It's a constant. - Where--

01:44:01   - It's nothing easier than that.

01:44:02   - Right, and you just sort of see it,

01:44:05   and here, you have this device in your hand,

01:44:07   and if you, you can see all the apps,

01:44:09   they're there on your home screen,

01:44:11   and if you want to get another app that isn't there,

01:44:15   you know where to go, there's an app for that,

01:44:18   and that app is called App Store,

01:44:20   and you go into the App Store,

01:44:22   you sign in with your Apple ID,

01:44:26   and they have your credit card,

01:44:27   and then from there, you can download other apps,

01:44:31   install them, and there's a promise from Apple

01:44:33   that has been true, and I know that whatever you do

01:44:38   in the App Store, whatever you install,

01:44:40   is not going to mess up your device.

01:44:42   It's technically, and both through technical measures

01:44:45   at the computer science level with sandboxing

01:44:48   and permissions, as, you know, at a, like I said,

01:44:53   like at a computer science level,

01:44:55   there are protections in place,

01:44:56   and then there are policy protections in place

01:44:59   that are enforced by the guidelines of the App Store

01:45:02   that you're not gonna end up with some kind of

01:45:05   invisible background demon running all the time

01:45:09   on your phone, and you don't even know what you did,

01:45:11   but at some point, you installed something,

01:45:13   and without even launching the app,

01:45:15   every time you restart your phone,

01:45:17   it's already draining your battery

01:45:19   at twice the rate that it should be.

01:45:21   That just, it doesn't happen, and people are so hesitant--

01:45:26   - And nobody's downloading Pokemon

01:45:27   or Fortnite bootlegs off of, like,

01:45:30   - Right. - Yeah, APKs

01:45:32   that are malware-ing them.

01:45:34   - Right, you never start getting pop-up ads

01:45:36   from some application.

01:45:38   It's somewhere in the background on your phone.

01:45:39   There are so many things that happen to Macs and Windows PCs

01:45:43   that cannot happen, and how central that is

01:45:47   to the appeal of the platform for users,

01:45:49   and I get it where if in some alternate universe,

01:45:53   there were, Apple made two kinds of phones.

01:45:56   They made the iPhone, which is the iPhone as we know it,

01:45:58   and they made a Mac phone, for lack of a better word,

01:46:01   and the Mac phone had a, was more like the Mac

01:46:05   in terms of, oh, you can just download .apps from the web

01:46:09   and unzip them, and they'll, you know,

01:46:11   drag them to the applications folder on your Mac phone,

01:46:14   and now you've got third-party applications

01:46:16   that go through.

01:46:16   I, whether it, if that were an operating system,

01:46:20   you could just install on the identical hardware,

01:46:22   or if it was a different device you had to buy.

01:46:25   That's what I would buy from Apple.

01:46:27   I would, but I'm not a typical user.

01:46:29   I'm not even vaguely close to a typical user.

01:46:31   - No, same, 100% same.

01:46:33   Like, I personally am a fan of sideloading.

01:46:35   If I had my druthers, I would like to sideload everything

01:46:37   and have complete control over everything,

01:46:39   but I recognize that with these things,

01:46:41   we have to talk about solutions that don't just apply to us,

01:46:43   but that apply to the market,

01:46:44   and the market is often very different

01:46:46   than the just us part of it.

01:46:48   - Right, and I, and you know, and you, I'm sure,

01:46:51   and I'm sure many, many, if not most of the people

01:46:53   who listen to my show, effectively do a form of sideloading

01:46:56   already through TestFlight, where I've got at least

01:46:59   a few apps on my phone at all times

01:47:01   that aren't from the App Store.

01:47:02   They're directly from developers

01:47:04   through Apple's TestFlight system,

01:47:06   including apps that couldn't be on the App Store

01:47:09   because they would violate, you know,

01:47:11   certain rules or whatever.

01:47:13   But I'm, you know, to me, it's not the worst place

01:47:19   where the platform could be in terms of balancing the needs

01:47:22   of most people versus allowing power users,

01:47:27   for lack of a term, to go outside the App Store for things.

01:47:31   And I don't think that-- - I talked about this part

01:47:32   before too, like, my parents are super smart.

01:47:34   Like, they're engineers and like, professors,

01:47:36   and they love the iPad because it was like,

01:47:38   just super simple, there was no complexity to it at all.

01:47:41   And now whenever I go over, like, I'll take out their iPad,

01:47:44   and there's like 800 versions of the mail thing

01:47:46   along the dock, and it's like, they're pulling the apps out

01:47:48   when they try to do it, and it's just like,

01:47:49   I just want my iPad back.

01:47:51   And that's not even, like, to the point of a Mac,

01:47:53   it's just that people have been complaining so often

01:47:55   that it's not a pro device, and Apple's solution

01:47:57   isn't to say make the Mac better,

01:47:58   it's to keep making the iPad more complicated.

01:48:00   And I see the same dynamic unfolding eventually

01:48:02   with the iPhone, where it's just the people who loved it

01:48:05   for what it was, it's like, you know,

01:48:06   like, you date somebody and you're like, I love them,

01:48:08   but I just wanna change them, and then you change them,

01:48:10   and you're like, I don't like them at all anymore.

01:48:13   - Oh, I've given up on that. - That's what it feels like.

01:48:15   - I've given up on that a long time ago, Rene.

01:48:17   - Yep, yep. - No change.

01:48:18   - That's like the cliche.

01:48:20   - But I know, but I do know,

01:48:21   but I know exactly what you mean, and that is true.

01:48:24   I just feel that what the EU has regulated here

01:48:27   with this DMA, at least insofar as it pertains to Apple

01:48:30   and iOS and their stewardship of iOS, and by iOS,

01:48:34   I mean both on the iPhone and iPad, is misguided.

01:48:37   And I don't think, I don't think the things

01:48:40   that they think they're gonna solve, this law solves at all.

01:48:43   And I think if they wanted to solve those things

01:48:45   and enforce some measure of increased competition,

01:48:50   and I certainly have complaints, you know,

01:48:51   I'm on a record since forever that I think it's absurd

01:48:55   and an outright offensive that one of the rules

01:48:58   of the App Store is that apps cannot explain the rules

01:49:02   of the App Store within the app.

01:49:04   So when you first launch Netflix on your iPhone

01:49:09   and you don't have an account for Netflix yet,

01:49:12   they can't tell you that you have to go

01:49:14   to Netflix.com to sign up.

01:49:16   They can't even tell you to go there to sign up,

01:49:18   let alone make it an actual link that would take you there.

01:49:21   Although maybe Netflix as a reader app could,

01:49:23   you know, maybe that's an exception, but there's any other--

01:49:27   - It's a problem with the Twitter thing over the weekend.

01:49:29   - Right, but exactly, not allowing you to put a link

01:49:32   to a mastodon in your Twitter account.

01:49:34   Well, Apple's been rocking that way from the beginning.

01:49:37   What makes Twitter's thing seem goofy

01:49:39   and Apple's just patently offensive is that

01:49:42   at least Apple's thing has been that way from the get-go,

01:49:46   whereas Twitter is in and of the open web.

01:49:49   It is, in some people's minds, you know,

01:49:52   it's a website with apps, you know, not just a closed app

01:49:57   ecosystem.

01:49:59   I think that the fact that Apple has these restrictions,

01:50:02   I think that the competition at the very least

01:50:04   should be between, okay, in app, you get to have

01:50:09   all the convenience of doing it in app and it's right here

01:50:12   and using your saved credit card and using customers' trust

01:50:17   of the Apple purchase system, or you could steer them

01:50:21   to your website and say, or you can pay, you know,

01:50:25   what, again, just toss Twitter out there as an idea

01:50:28   where Twitter's thing where they have this new

01:50:29   Twitter Blue subscription and in app, it costs $11 a month,

01:50:34   but you can go to the web and sign up on your Twitter account

01:50:37   for just $8 a month to compensate for the 30%

01:50:41   Apple is taking.

01:50:42   They should be able to tell you that right in the app.

01:50:43   They should say, here, if you wanna sign up right here

01:50:46   in app and use your Apple account, it's $11 a month,

01:50:49   tap here, and if you would prefer to pay $8 a month,

01:50:52   tap here and it'll jump you out to Safari

01:50:55   and you could sign up there and let people compete.

01:50:57   And if too many people for Apple's taste are saving

01:51:02   the $3 a month by jumping out, well then,

01:51:05   that's the competition that might get them

01:51:06   to lower the 70/30 split to something

01:51:09   where they wouldn't do it.

01:51:12   But that's, if the regulation took targeted measures

01:51:16   like that, bull's eyes, and say this is a specific problem

01:51:20   we have, okay, I wouldn't be complaining.

01:51:24   I would say this is actually where government regulation

01:51:26   helps, but you have to allow sideloading

01:51:30   in third-party app stores?

01:51:32   I'm not with it.

01:51:33   How do you see it coming?

01:51:34   I think that Apple's going to take every measure they can

01:51:38   to make this as unpleasant as possible within the confines

01:51:43   of the law and have so many warnings and stuff

01:51:46   that it will ultimately wind up as a thing

01:51:49   that they spend a lot of engineering time

01:51:51   to make sure technically works and is possible

01:51:54   to comply with the law, but which effectively,

01:51:57   nobody is actually going to use.

01:51:59   Users won't, most users won't turn it on

01:52:02   and very few, if any, major companies will actually

01:52:05   go the route of putting their games or other apps

01:52:09   into a third-party app store or creating

01:52:11   a third-party app store or allowing them to be signed.

01:52:15   Yeah, I think, well, I hate saying this

01:52:18   because we've talked about this before,

01:52:20   but when Apple said we're going to double

01:52:22   our services revenue by, I forget what the date was, 2020,

01:52:25   I think that was a fundamental shift

01:52:26   where for the first time user experienced

01:52:28   like a backseat to revenue and we started seeing

01:52:30   all these push notification marketing ads

01:52:32   and ads being put more on the platform

01:52:34   and a lot of things that gets Apple in trouble,

01:52:36   even though it's not a major part of their revenue stream.

01:52:39   And I think this shapes, colors a lot of that

01:52:42   because we saw in the testimony that when Tim Cook

01:52:44   was talking that he said, whether you're in the app store

01:52:47   or not, it's going to make it just harder for you

01:52:49   to give us our 30%, which people were stunned

01:52:52   that he'd say that, but I think this is the same thing.

01:52:55   Apple will put in some form of gatekeeper,

01:52:57   like the same sort of functionality we have

01:52:59   on Mac OS right now, but maybe there'll be a fee imposed

01:53:04   for getting a signed certificate from Apple

01:53:06   and you'll have to have a signed certificate

01:53:08   to run on the app store or maybe they'll be like,

01:53:10   here's the form to submit your 30%

01:53:12   for running on an iOS device.

01:53:14   It's going to be something that's going to make

01:53:16   a whole bunch of people, I don't think people

01:53:19   are going to be as happy about it as they think they are

01:53:21   and I don't think it's going to be as easy

01:53:23   and I think also to your point,

01:53:24   we've seen how this works out on Android.

01:53:26   We've seen Epic say that it doesn't work out well

01:53:28   for them on Android and I don't think that Apple

01:53:31   is going to go out of their way to make it easier

01:53:33   or better results for Epic, who by the way

01:53:36   is involved in a huge lawsuit right now

01:53:38   for the stuff that they're worried about,

01:53:40   the 30% they want is for their V bucks.

01:53:42   I don't think they'll make it much easier.

01:53:44   I keep going back to this, it reminds me of the battle

01:53:46   between a casino and a city council in Las Vegas

01:53:49   and I just wish both of those things didn't really exist

01:53:51   but I understand why they're fighting.

01:53:53   - It is curious to me that Android has had side loading

01:53:58   from the get-go and in my opinion,

01:54:00   as somebody who's owned an Android phone on it

01:54:03   or every couple years I buy a new one,

01:54:05   I think that the way you go about turning it,

01:54:09   it's off by default, at least on the Android phones

01:54:12   I've purchased which have been the Pixel phones

01:54:14   in recent years, it's off by default.

01:54:16   I think that where you go to turn it on

01:54:19   and the language of and number of warnings

01:54:23   you have to okay past to get it turned on is appropriate.

01:54:27   I don't think it's, and yet it's effectively a non-issue

01:54:31   in the Android market and it's funny,

01:54:33   that to me is the funniest part about the Epic thing

01:54:36   where Epic sued Apple and Google and so they sued Google

01:54:41   and their argument against Google was basically

01:54:44   that they thought those warnings were,

01:54:46   so they turned off so many people

01:54:49   that it effectively kept it from working.

01:54:52   I guess what they want is something,

01:54:55   I mean really, I mean I'm not trying

01:54:57   to be hyperbolic about it.

01:55:01   I really think Epic wanted it to be,

01:55:03   wants it to be as easy, if not easier,

01:55:06   than modern Mac and Windows.

01:55:07   Like go back 10 years to how easy it was

01:55:09   to just unzip anything and double click it and it runs.

01:55:13   And once it's running-- - I think they wanna

01:55:14   be the store, like they don't really care about,

01:55:17   they're upset they're not the gatekeeper,

01:55:18   I think is what it boils down to.

01:55:19   - And that used to be possible on Mac and Windows

01:55:23   where you could write software that would dig hooks

01:55:26   into the operating system and if you,

01:55:28   whether knowing what you got into or unknowingly,

01:55:31   you could wind up running what's effectively

01:55:35   a Frankenstein operating system or part of the,

01:55:38   part of what would, to me, be considered part of the system

01:55:43   is now from a third party that isn't,

01:55:45   it isn't necessarily in conflict with the company

01:55:48   that makes, or whoever it is who's in charge

01:55:51   of making the pure version of the operating system,

01:55:56   but you've got this whole thing running in the background.

01:55:58   You know, like Adobe effectively does that, right?

01:56:00   When you install the Adobe Suite on your Mac,

01:56:05   part of your Mac is all constantly checking in

01:56:08   with Adobe and you're effectively running an offshoot

01:56:12   of Mac OS that's Mac OS with the Adobe Creative Suite.

01:56:17   - And they keep asking you if you wanna install

01:56:18   the special trust thing that'll increase their trust of you.

01:56:21   - Right.

01:56:22   You know, and there's pluses and minuses to it, right?

01:56:27   I mean, Dropbox, certainly in the early days of Dropbox

01:56:31   when it was super simple, you know,

01:56:32   it was a hack though at a technical level.

01:56:34   It was a complete hack and you were just running,

01:56:38   effectively if you were using Dropbox then,

01:56:40   you were running a hacked version of Mac OS

01:56:42   that had a cloud fold, you know,

01:56:45   everything in this folder syncs to a cloud service thing

01:56:47   running in the background that wasn't just like an app

01:56:51   and you couldn't just command Q and quit it.

01:56:52   It was, you know, running extensions in the background.

01:56:56   And they, you know, because they engineered it well,

01:56:58   that's what made it popular is it's like,

01:56:59   yeah, I installed it.

01:57:00   And yes, you could uninstall it, but it wasn't easy.

01:57:03   Yes, there's pluses and minuses to that sort of thing,

01:57:06   but the phone to me, so long as we only have

01:57:09   one phone platform from the company,

01:57:12   it shouldn't be that way.

01:57:13   We shall see.

01:57:15   All right, let me thank our final sponsor of the episode,

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01:59:35   Well, we've wound up with our Apple December in review.

01:59:41   - Yes, or the last week in review.

01:59:43   - The year in review, again, famous last words.

01:59:45   I don't know that I have a lot to say.

01:59:48   There's-- - Well, I think you nailed it

01:59:50   at the beginning.

01:59:50   It was like the when COVID caught up, COVID and lockdowns

01:59:53   and a bunch of other stuff caught up with Apple.

01:59:55   - Right, and this is not a complaint, but I think that it,

02:00:00   you know, that they had to prioritize

02:00:02   while they were locked down.

02:00:03   I mean, famously on the hardware front,

02:00:05   they, it's still mind-blowing to me that when that,

02:00:10   I think it was United a couple of years ago

02:00:13   accidentally leaked somehow in,

02:00:16   some poor product or marketing person at United leaked

02:00:21   that Apple has a standing order of like, I don't know,

02:00:24   50 business class seats between SFO and China

02:00:29   every single day.

02:00:30   And they don't necessarily fill those seats every day,

02:00:33   but if they wanted to, they could.

02:00:37   Dozens and dozens of people who work for Apple

02:00:39   or, you know, in normal times are flying between Apple

02:00:42   and China every day and probably other places

02:00:45   around the world now too, as Apple is slowly

02:00:49   sort of trying to break free of the dependence,

02:00:52   their dependencies on China.

02:00:55   But the hardware business is one of, you know,

02:00:59   hardware is physical and therefore there are aspects of it

02:01:02   that require a physical presence of people, right?

02:01:05   I mean, I think it's fair to say that software

02:01:10   is more naturally and easily created

02:01:15   by a remote team than hardware.

02:01:19   - Yeah, like even when, like when people talk about

02:01:21   return to work, that's for software people,

02:01:23   hardware people across Silicon Valley have been at work

02:01:25   and has met suits for the last two plus years.

02:01:28   - Right, and I know, you know, some people,

02:01:31   I know more software people than hardware people at Apple,

02:01:33   but, you know, during the COVID restrictions,

02:01:35   there were times, you know, and, you know,

02:01:38   Apple hints at them here and there,

02:01:40   but like the machines they have for fabricating,

02:01:43   you know, they're effectively very fancy 3D printers,

02:01:46   but ones that can make things out of like aluminum.

02:01:50   - All of that.

02:01:50   - Yes, there's, you just can't, I don't know.

02:01:53   I'm sure it'd be fascinating.

02:01:54   I would love it if Apple someday did some kind, you know,

02:01:56   and just put it all, put it all on like a four year delay

02:01:59   or something to keep the latest and greatest out of it,

02:02:02   but I would love like an Apple TV show

02:02:04   that was just behind the scenes at Apple hardware

02:02:06   and you got to see like, you know, like at this point,

02:02:10   like if you got to see how they created the original AirPods

02:02:13   from six years ago, you know,

02:02:14   and the prototypes they went through and stuff,

02:02:17   it'd be fascinating, but you have to be there, right?

02:02:20   You can't, you know, if you're working at home,

02:02:21   you don't have access to the $10 million CNC machine.

02:02:25   - Yeah, 100%.

02:02:26   - So, you know, and people had to go in

02:02:29   and they'd like have like a signup sheet

02:02:30   and there'd be one employee at a time

02:02:32   who would come in and be in the lab all by themselves

02:02:35   and, you know, and then leave and wait for the air to clear

02:02:39   before somebody else could come in.

02:02:40   I mean, it was complicated.

02:02:41   It would be shocking if somehow the 2020 and 2021 went by

02:02:46   and Apple hadn't been, like any other company,

02:02:48   hindered in some ways.

02:02:50   And I kind of feel like this is the year

02:02:51   where it caught up to them

02:02:52   and maybe it'll be a while before they're fully unjammed.

02:02:56   I can't help but think that if in a world

02:02:58   where COVID didn't happen,

02:03:00   that I'd like to think that maybe this,

02:03:05   the late November or October,

02:03:07   whenever it was when they came out with the new iPads,

02:03:09   I guess it was October, that, you know,

02:03:11   and everybody's like, huh, you know,

02:03:12   the iPad Pros are still kind of unchanged

02:03:16   except they go from the M1 to the M2

02:03:18   and, you know, there's the fancy pencil support

02:03:21   where you can hover, you get a hover effect.

02:03:23   And other than that, that's it, you know, which isn't bad.

02:03:26   They're still great, you know,

02:03:29   best of class pro tablets,

02:03:31   but, you know, there are designs that go back to 2018

02:03:35   and that's pretty long time for Apple.

02:03:37   Even if the new design that they might've had

02:03:40   wouldn't have been a radical departure,

02:03:43   you know, clearly the more radical departure

02:03:45   was just like with the iPhone 10 for the iPhone,

02:03:49   going from the, there's a touch ID home button

02:03:54   on the front face to an edge to edge, you know, thing.

02:03:57   And with the iPad Pros going to face ID

02:04:00   or with the iPad Air and now the regular iPad

02:04:03   having a touch ID button on the side

02:04:07   instead of on the front face

02:04:08   'cause there's no more room on the front face.

02:04:10   I don't think there's a new iPad design that radical

02:04:15   that would have been due this year,

02:04:17   but something, you know, a little new.

02:04:18   I can't help but feel that we'd be have more of the max,

02:04:22   you know, or second level,

02:04:23   second versions of certain max out already, you know.

02:04:28   - The iPad thing, like to me,

02:04:31   I want now that Apple is fully in control

02:04:32   of their own chip destiny,

02:04:34   I want them to always update to the new chip.

02:04:36   Like just, even if they're not changing anything,

02:04:38   just put the new chip in it and people will say,

02:04:39   "Well, you shouldn't, like why upgrade every year?"

02:04:41   I'm not gonna upgrade every year,

02:04:43   but every year somebody is going to.

02:04:45   And I feel like it very much like I feel like a bakery.

02:04:47   Even though I'm not buying fresh bread every day,

02:04:50   any day I go to the bakery, there should be fresh bread.

02:04:52   I don't wanna go and buy an iPad

02:04:54   that has a two-year-old processor in it

02:04:55   just because there's no redesign.

02:04:57   Like just put the new spec, like the new parts in,

02:04:59   any year you have the new parts.

02:05:01   So every year that I buy them,

02:05:02   I get the best version of that for the money that I can.

02:05:05   But the max stuff,

02:05:07   like when Steve Jobs announced the transition to Intel,

02:05:10   he said it would take two years.

02:05:11   They got it done in about a year.

02:05:13   Tim Cook made the same two-year promise.

02:05:15   They're not done.

02:05:16   Like we still don't have an Apple Silicon Mac Pro.

02:05:18   And when you look at the timeline,

02:05:20   like it's evident just based on the specs of the machines

02:05:23   that several of these things came out months later

02:05:25   than Apple originally planned them to.

02:05:27   And that whole timeline just got stretched out.

02:05:30   And I think that that is like, if not for COVID,

02:05:32   I think we would have gotten a lot of those products earlier

02:05:35   and we would have gotten to that Mac Pro by now

02:05:37   and they would have just nailed that transition.

02:05:40   - Yeah, and it's funny and I almost feel bad for like,

02:05:43   like Tom Boger in particular,

02:05:45   who's was the one who is sort of tasked

02:05:48   with when they rejuvenated the Mac Mini

02:05:51   of telling us in the press.

02:05:53   And you had a great interview with him,

02:05:55   but telling us, hey,

02:05:56   there've been stretches where the Mac Mini

02:05:59   didn't get updates in the Intel era,

02:06:01   but we've never lost sight of what a great product it is.

02:06:05   And we know how so many of our customers are pro Mac users

02:06:09   have these very pro uses for this very small desktop Mac.

02:06:13   I think that the shape of the Mac Studio

02:06:17   shows how committed they are to that sort of form factor.

02:06:20   Where we'll just take the same footprint,

02:06:22   but we'll make it taller because it's got super pro,

02:06:25   very, very serious pro specs.

02:06:27   But here we are over now,

02:06:31   over two years after the M1 Mac Mini.

02:06:34   And if you wanna get a Mac Mini,

02:06:35   you're still getting the one from the end of 2020.

02:06:38   And now Apple's in charge.

02:06:39   I don't think that was their plan all along.

02:06:41   I think- - Nope.

02:06:42   - I think without COVID,

02:06:44   we would have had something else in between,

02:06:47   possibly more than just go from the M1 to M2,

02:06:50   but at least go from the M1 to M2.

02:06:53   - COVID and TSMC is starting to feel

02:06:55   what Intel felt a few years ago

02:06:56   in terms of die shrink,

02:06:58   like process shrinks and yield rates.

02:07:00   - Right.

02:07:02   So they had to prioritize.

02:07:03   And what bubbled to the top of their priorities

02:07:07   in that stretch?

02:07:07   And again, I'm sure that was all in the timeline,

02:07:10   but they did, this was over a year ago though.

02:07:12   So it's not a 2022 year in review thing.

02:07:15   It's the late 2021 MacBook Pros,

02:07:19   the 14 inch and 16 inch MacBook Pros,

02:07:21   which me as a, that's my main machine,

02:07:24   a 14 inch M2 MacBook Pro.

02:07:27   I love it.

02:07:28   I can't say enough good things about it.

02:07:29   I love it.

02:07:30   It's great.

02:07:32   It kind of boggles my mind though,

02:07:33   that one of the rumors earlier this year

02:07:35   was that they'd have new ones already

02:07:37   at the end of this year.

02:07:38   And I was just sort of like, hmm.

02:07:43   I mean, ideally, I guess it would be nice

02:07:45   if it was on a 12 month schedule

02:07:46   and you could count on it the way we do the phone.

02:07:49   My skepticism, and it turns out I was right.

02:07:52   There were no new MacBook Pros this year,

02:07:55   but my thought was, well, wait,

02:07:56   with all these other machines we haven't seen yet,

02:07:58   why would they put that one up

02:08:01   when those are actually relatively fresh, right?

02:08:05   There's no new Mac mini yet.

02:08:07   The Mac Pro we literally haven't seen yet.

02:08:10   So--

02:08:11   - Yeah, the iMac Pro is still in another world

02:08:13   where they're trying to figure out

02:08:14   if the studio solves for that

02:08:15   or if they still need to make it.

02:08:17   - Yeah, and I get it that it's not like

02:08:18   there's 12 people working for John Turnus

02:08:21   and those 12 people have to put

02:08:25   all these Mac hardware devices out there

02:08:27   and they're not, you know,

02:08:29   that there's different hundreds and hundreds,

02:08:32   if not thousands of people working

02:08:33   on Apple's Mac hardware in parallel,

02:08:37   but it just seemed like with the pace of all the other Macs

02:08:40   that I would have been very surprised

02:08:42   if October's introductions included M2 MacBook Pros,

02:08:47   'cause I just didn't see them as being there.

02:08:51   So, you know, I don't think it's a disappointing year

02:08:53   for Mac hardware.

02:08:54   I think what shows is that the single most important Mac,

02:08:59   it's obvious, Apple doesn't have to tell us this,

02:09:02   it's the MacBook Air.

02:09:03   And it's a, you know, they got a great update

02:09:06   to the MacBook Air out over the summer.

02:09:09   I know firsthand, 'cause I had a high school senior

02:09:13   last year, now college freshman,

02:09:16   with lots of friends and, you know,

02:09:18   including some friends who basically knew what I do

02:09:22   and, you know, were like, hey, if you ask your dad,

02:09:24   what should, you know, I'm thinking about waiting,

02:09:26   you know, before the MacBook Airs were announced,

02:09:29   I'm thinking about waiting to order a laptop for college,

02:09:33   and I'd say, yeah, tell your friends to wait.

02:09:35   'Cause, you know, everybody knew it was sort of coming,

02:09:37   and then WWDC came and they announced it,

02:09:39   and, you know, they hadn't even graduated yet.

02:09:42   And they were like, oh, and then they were all, you know,

02:09:44   it's just unbelievable how many times my son said to me,

02:09:47   oh, and so-and-so just bought a MacBook Air,

02:09:49   somebody else just bought their MacBook Air.

02:09:51   They all bought MacBook Airs for college,

02:09:53   so they got it out on time for the, you know, at least,

02:09:56   I know that like for institutional education buyers,

02:09:59   the buying schedule is earlier in the year.

02:10:02   I think it's like more like April,

02:10:05   where that's sort of the cutoff for the schools

02:10:08   to budget for their purchase for next year.

02:10:10   But for like individuals, and you know,

02:10:12   it's like a rite of passage.

02:10:14   You graduate high school, you go,

02:10:15   if you're heading to college, you get a new laptop,

02:10:17   maybe it's your graduation present, they hit that.

02:10:20   And I, you know, all kudos to Apple.

02:10:22   I think that was a very important milestone to hit.

02:10:27   It's a weird time for Apple to ship Mac hardware.

02:10:30   I can't remember many hardware introductions

02:10:34   that were made at WWDC and were shipping soon, right?

02:10:37   Like the- - Except for 2017, John.

02:10:40   I still remember that they announced, what was it?

02:10:42   All the new iMacs, all the new MacBook Airs, all the new,

02:10:45   well, they were just spec bumped MacBook Pros.

02:10:48   And we went into the, it was at the hotel,

02:10:51   we went to the next hotel, and they're like,

02:10:53   here are your review units.

02:10:54   And you just like, I've got stuff to do.

02:10:55   I can't take four computers with me, sorry.

02:10:58   And I took them across the street to the hotel.

02:11:00   - I do remember that.

02:11:03   And I was like, how am I gonna get all this stuff home?

02:11:05   I can't do this.

02:11:06   So what else did happen?

02:11:10   So March was the all new Mac Studio and Studio Display,

02:11:15   new iPad Air, the new iPhone SE.

02:11:18   - The green iPhone.

02:11:20   - The green iPhones.

02:11:21   I don't have strong opinions on the Mac Studio

02:11:23   'cause it's not a machine for me.

02:11:25   - I love it.

02:11:25   - But the people I know who have it seem to really like it.

02:11:29   The Mac Studio Display though, I do have,

02:11:32   and absolutely love, it is up there.

02:11:35   I would say my product of the year from Apple,

02:11:37   it's probably a tie between the Mac Studio Display with,

02:11:41   I splurged, I got maxed it out.

02:11:43   I got the nano texture.

02:11:44   - Nice.

02:11:45   - Surface and the fancy $500 stand,

02:11:49   I think it's 500, whatever it cost me.

02:11:51   But I actually do use the adjustable stand.

02:11:53   I move it up and down a little sometimes

02:11:56   and it's a very nice stand.

02:11:58   But the nano texture glass,

02:11:59   I think I spoke about it on this show

02:12:01   an episode or two ago, but it's unbelievably,

02:12:05   I was about to say life changing,

02:12:07   I guess not life changing, but.

02:12:08   - Now if you're a Mac nerd and you've been waiting

02:12:11   for something that has actually like pixels are on the grid,

02:12:14   that's like all we wanted was a display

02:12:16   where pixels are actually on the grid.

02:12:19   - Well, but for me personally, in my home office

02:12:22   with south facing windows, the nano texture

02:12:26   is so unbelievably good at dealing with

02:12:30   not just like oblique reflections or tough lighting,

02:12:35   I mean like direct sunlight in every April

02:12:40   and every October, that's the time of year

02:12:42   where in the middle of the afternoon,

02:12:44   my prime working hours, the sunlight streams in my window

02:12:47   and is right on the display.

02:12:50   And my only option literally

02:12:54   before I had this nano texture display

02:12:56   was to just take a break for an hour until the sun moved

02:13:00   or which might mean pick up my MacBook

02:13:03   and go upstairs to our kitchen or go somewhere else

02:13:07   where I sit somewhere else.

02:13:08   But I literally could not see the display.

02:13:11   And because I had the review unit

02:13:14   of the regular studio display with the glossy finish,

02:13:19   in April, so the two times a year from my home office

02:13:22   where the sunlight hits are April and October,

02:13:25   in April I had the glossy one

02:13:27   and I literally for about 90 minutes an afternoon

02:13:30   on a sunny day, I could not use it.

02:13:33   And by, I forget when my nano texture one arrived

02:13:38   but sometime over the summer, June or July, I don't know,

02:13:41   by the time October rolled around, I had it

02:13:44   and there were times where I'd be like, wait,

02:13:46   am I in, is this display in direct sunlight?

02:13:50   And I'd hold my hand up like Indiana Jones

02:13:53   testing the booby trap in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

02:13:56   And yes, it is full on sunlight

02:13:58   and I can still see the display with no reflection at all.

02:14:02   It's just perfectly usable.

02:14:04   Amazing, great product.

02:14:06   - I bought one too.

02:14:07   I had a review unit and I still bought one and I love it.

02:14:09   The only thing I disagree about is I think they should have

02:14:12   put the center stage camera in the iMac

02:14:15   because I think that's much more of a family product

02:14:16   where it would benefit from people getting up

02:14:18   and walking around and putting it in liver

02:14:20   and limbs and kitchens and put the 1080p webcam in here

02:14:22   because I just, that camera is so bad.

02:14:26   I've put a Canon Cine camera on top of it instead.

02:14:29   I just covered it up with like an actual real camera

02:14:32   because I couldn't take that camera anywhere.

02:14:34   - I do not like the camera and I complained about it

02:14:39   and it is what it is.

02:14:41   I guess I see what Apple was thinking

02:14:44   but like you said, I don't think that the market

02:14:46   for a pro studio display, I know the word pro

02:14:50   isn't in the studio display name

02:14:51   but to me it's a pro product at pro prices.

02:14:54   - And it goes with the studio, the Mac studio

02:14:56   which is a pro device.

02:14:58   - Right, it should have a camera whose number one goal

02:15:00   is image quality for whatever their budget was.

02:15:03   If they said here's our budget for the camera component,

02:15:06   they should have optimized for image quality

02:15:08   and if that meant that you had to sit still

02:15:10   right in front of the center of the camera

02:15:12   like you do with just about every other camera in the world,

02:15:15   then I think that would be fine

02:15:17   and would have been more appropriate for the product

02:15:19   than to use this ultra wide angle camera

02:15:23   with significantly lower image quality

02:15:26   but because it's ultra wide angle supports center stage

02:15:29   because it can crop wherever you are as you go around.

02:15:33   I don't think that feature is appropriate for the product.

02:15:36   Ideally you'd have both, right?

02:15:38   It would be great to magically have center stage

02:15:41   and amazing image quality

02:15:44   but I feel like they made the wrong trade off there

02:15:46   but I've moved past it by just I have an Opal C1.

02:15:50   I don't do many video things but it is what it is.

02:15:54   - You do them for me on occasion, I appreciate it.

02:15:56   - I do, I do but I don't use my studio display.

02:16:00   - No, the only other thing I'm really interested in

02:16:02   is because it runs iOS,

02:16:04   like it'd be better if it had Wi-Fi

02:16:05   but even if it doesn't, it connects to a Mac and runs iOS

02:16:08   is I'm hoping or I'm wondering if we'll get software updates

02:16:11   for it the way that we get them for the AirPods

02:16:13   because like before that headphones

02:16:14   never got software updates

02:16:15   and now we're almost used to getting

02:16:17   yearly updates for our headphones

02:16:18   and I wonder if at some point Apple's gonna say,

02:16:20   here's an update that adds,

02:16:22   I don't know if you have two studio displays,

02:16:23   now it'll make them a paired like a speaker pairs

02:16:26   or some kind of upgrade.

02:16:27   - I wonder, I haven't gotten,

02:16:30   I have not gotten a firmware update in months,

02:16:34   many, many, many months.

02:16:36   There were a couple earlier in the year

02:16:37   but it seems like it settled down and it's been a while.

02:16:40   The other thing that I ran into earlier,

02:16:42   I forget if it ever happened once I got the nano texture,

02:16:44   I think it happened at least once I got my personal one

02:16:47   as opposed to the review unit that I sent back

02:16:50   but there were problems early on

02:16:53   in the first few months after it came out

02:16:55   where your audio would get garbled

02:16:58   and it was in fact a software problem

02:17:02   on the iOS computer that is secretly embedded.

02:17:05   A studio display is actually an iOS computer.

02:17:10   - Yeah, it's like an iPad 7

02:17:11   or something stuck inside the display.

02:17:13   - Yeah, it really is.

02:17:14   - Yeah, like the board.

02:17:16   - And you don't actually use it like a computer,

02:17:20   it's not enabled like a computer

02:17:22   but it was somehow the audio subsystem on that computer

02:17:26   would get garbled and the only way to fix it

02:17:29   was to restart the computer

02:17:33   but the only way to restart the computer

02:17:35   because it has no power button

02:17:37   was to yank the cable out of the wall

02:17:39   or the socket wherever you have it plugged in

02:17:42   which for me meant crawling down on my hands and knees

02:17:45   so the second time I had to do it,

02:17:48   I was like two strikes and you're out in my book,

02:17:50   I'm not going down there again.

02:17:51   So I bought a home kit.

02:17:54   - That's what I did.

02:17:55   - So I bought it, Murphy's Law worked perfectly.

02:18:00   I spent, I don't know, 30, whatever they cost,

02:18:03   30 or $35 to get the, I forget what brand,

02:18:06   I don't know, whatever it's called.

02:18:09   They sell them at the Apple stores.

02:18:11   - Yeah.

02:18:12   - It's nice, it works and now that I have it set up,

02:18:15   I haven't had to use it.

02:18:16   - Yeah.

02:18:17   - But all I wanted to be able to do

02:18:18   is instead of crawling on my hands and knees,

02:18:20   just go into the home app, turn that socket off,

02:18:23   turn it back on to restart the display

02:18:25   without going down there but once I installed it,

02:18:27   I've never had to use it so.

02:18:29   - Same thing.

02:18:30   - Murphy wins again.

02:18:32   - Yeah.

02:18:33   - What's next after, oh here it is,

02:18:36   the Eve Energy Smart Plug and Power Eve, E-V-E.

02:18:41   I can recommend it, I actually like the product a lot.

02:18:43   It's $40 though, I'd have to say, it's more than $30.

02:18:46   - Yeah.

02:18:47   - So I spent $40 on a plug just to get Murphy's Law

02:18:51   to kick in so I'd never need to unplug

02:18:52   my studio display again.

02:18:54   But anyway, great product. - We appreciate it.

02:18:56   - I don't think there was much,

02:18:57   I don't have much from Apple's calendar

02:18:59   in between those product announcements in WWDC in June.

02:19:03   - No, same, I was just looking again.

02:19:04   It's like they did a lot of stuff.

02:19:05   Like they sunsetted the iPod.

02:19:07   - That is true. - That was in May, yeah.

02:19:11   - That was sad.

02:19:12   But you know, they had a good run.

02:19:14   WWDC in hindsight, I guess what stands out

02:19:18   is it was the first big thing that was back to real life

02:19:22   and it was good to see.

02:19:24   It'll be interesting to see, I presume,

02:19:27   and I don't know anybody who's betting otherwise

02:19:29   that this year's or next year's, I guess it still is,

02:19:33   2023's WWDC will be similar,

02:19:36   where I do not believe that they're going to go back

02:19:39   to the San Jose Convention Center

02:19:42   and have in-person sessions.

02:19:44   I think sessions, the week of content,

02:19:46   the actual developer content,

02:19:48   has forever moved towards these pre-recorded things.

02:19:52   And I think everybody's happier that way.

02:19:54   It sounds to me like my developer friends

02:19:56   actually like them better.

02:19:57   I think that it means that there are sessions,

02:19:59   if there's a session with 16 minutes of content,

02:20:04   it's a 16-minute session.

02:20:05   It doesn't have to go to 30 because you need,

02:20:08   like programming the physical conferences,

02:20:10   like programming a TV network

02:20:13   where everything has to be in half-hour increments.

02:20:16   And you could have a 35-minute session

02:20:19   and you could blow past the half-hour mark if you want to.

02:20:22   It's very liberating.

02:20:24   I think that the actual Apple employees who perform,

02:20:29   for lack of a better word, the sessions,

02:20:31   I think as people who are full-time engineers

02:20:36   and not stage professionals,

02:20:40   they're clearly so much more comfortable on camera

02:20:43   than they are on stage.

02:20:45   I mean, people, anybody who's ever spoke,

02:20:48   I mean, famously, public speaking in front of a crowd

02:20:52   is the number one phobia people have.

02:20:53   And it makes all the sense in the world

02:20:55   where evolutionarily we evolved to the point

02:20:58   where if hundreds of people all have their attention on you,

02:21:02   you are in terrible danger.

02:21:04   - Yeah.

02:21:05   - That's the way we evolved.

02:21:07   - It was so much more error-prone too

02:21:08   'cause everything was live.

02:21:09   And there were some sessions where people were like walking

02:21:11   and you'd hear the mic just scratching along their clothes

02:21:14   or their hair the entire time.

02:21:15   And because it was live,

02:21:16   they couldn't do anything about it.

02:21:18   These are all like beautifully produced.

02:21:19   They can do multiple takes if they need to.

02:21:22   They can do a lot of production value

02:21:23   so it's so much better.

02:21:25   Like mutual friend Alex Lindsay said,

02:21:27   they're like, you start with online first

02:21:28   and then you add the physical components.

02:21:31   That just makes, it's so much better

02:21:32   for everybody all over the world that way.

02:21:35   - Yeah, it seems, so it seems win-win-win.

02:21:38   Other than the camaraderie of being together for a week

02:21:42   with your fellow developer friends and media people

02:21:45   for the whole week, it's, you know,

02:21:47   it, I don't, I'd be flabbergasted if it were to change,

02:21:52   to be honest.

02:21:53   Like a good amount of developers are like,

02:21:54   we saw people like day after day after day.

02:21:57   And the other thing I really liked

02:21:58   because I went straight from WWDC to VidCon,

02:22:00   which is a big, one of the big,

02:22:01   like it's not run by YouTube,

02:22:03   but it's like a lot of YouTubers and TikTokers

02:22:05   and people there.

02:22:06   This was before I joined YouTube.

02:22:08   And like Apple was so conscientious about health and safety

02:22:11   during that event that I did not see any headlines.

02:22:14   Whereas like people were calling it COVIDCon by the end of,

02:22:17   - Yeah, yeah.

02:22:18   - By the end of the other one.

02:22:20   It was just like such a stark difference

02:22:22   in terms of like how considerate they were the entire time.

02:22:26   - The only gamble is the rain, right?

02:22:30   Is, 'cause Apple, one of the ways that Apple designed

02:22:33   a very COVID friendly WWDC in June was that, you know,

02:22:38   the seating for the keynote,

02:22:39   the keynote was the big mass event, right?

02:22:41   That's where there were, I don't know,

02:22:43   2000 people, something like that,

02:22:44   or at least over a thousand.

02:22:46   It was outdoors.

02:22:47   So that's, you know, number one thing you can do

02:22:49   to make something safer.

02:22:50   The food and stuff like that was in their cafeteria,

02:22:54   which has big doors that opened up.

02:22:56   So it was still open air.

02:22:58   In hindsight, it does seem like,

02:23:00   I don't know anybody who thinks they caught COVID at WWDC.

02:23:03   It doesn't seem to have been any kind of spreader.

02:23:06   So I think that's a win.

02:23:07   I think the only question I have going forward is,

02:23:10   can they make it bigger?

02:23:11   Can they invite more people?

02:23:13   I mean, because there is,

02:23:15   it is curious that it worked as well as it did.

02:23:18   And speaking to some of the people at Apple

02:23:21   who were involved in planning it,

02:23:24   it really is the truth that that part of Apple Park

02:23:27   was never designed with,

02:23:29   what if we ever wanna host 1500 or 2000 outsiders

02:23:34   for a live outdoor keynote outside the ring?

02:23:40   It wasn't designed for that, but it worked great,

02:23:45   you know, other than the fact that the sun was so bright

02:23:47   that some people did get sunburned.

02:23:49   You know, sunburn was the worst thing

02:23:50   that seemed to happen from it.

02:23:51   I don't know how much bigger they could get it though,

02:23:53   given the limits of that lawn space there.

02:23:56   - Yeah, and they gave out sunscreen and stuff

02:23:58   in the little bags.

02:23:59   Like it was, they tried their best and hats,

02:24:02   and all sorts of things.

02:24:04   - I met one fellow who,

02:24:06   he says, and he is such a bad sunburn on half of his face.

02:24:10   He really was like the Harvey Dent type sunburn.

02:24:14   - Oh, Sam from iUpdate was bright red,

02:24:16   like neon bright red.

02:24:18   - Well, this guy was, and he was like,

02:24:20   and I did, I used the sunscreen.

02:24:22   I had it all over my face, and this still happened to me

02:24:24   'cause he was Canadian, you know, he's very fair-skinned.

02:24:27   It was unusually sunny for Cupertino,

02:24:30   but the funny part is that if it had rained,

02:24:33   there was no plan B.

02:24:34   There is no canopy that would cover that.

02:24:37   We would have all been soaked, I guess, I don't know.

02:24:39   It rains infrequently enough in Cupertino

02:24:43   that I guess it's worth taking the gamble,

02:24:47   but everybody, I didn't get there.

02:24:48   - Although it rains a lot when I'm there, Jon,

02:24:49   and I think it's because I bring

02:24:50   Canadian low pressure systems with me.

02:24:52   - Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.

02:24:54   It does seem like something that would happen to you,

02:24:56   but it did rain.

02:24:57   I think it was the Friday before WWDC's Monday keynote.

02:25:00   It rained pretty bad, and they were like, huh, this is,

02:25:03   you know, this is what we were hoping would happen,

02:25:05   but I would guess what we'll see this year

02:25:07   is a replay of last year's.

02:25:08   Maybe a little bigger,

02:25:09   but I don't know how much bigger they can make it,

02:25:11   but I think Apple considered it a success,

02:25:14   and so I think it's probably the new model for WWDC.

02:25:17   - And the developer center was an amazing addition

02:25:20   to the whole system.

02:25:22   - What else happened at WWDC?

02:25:24   I mean, we don't have to rehash the software announcements.

02:25:27   I do think, I guess the one thing I'll say

02:25:29   about the software announcements is it does seem to me,

02:25:31   I mean, again, this is kind of obvious to everybody

02:25:35   that Apple has sort of, under Craig Federighi,

02:25:38   has moved from a, all the major features come out

02:25:43   in the integer .o update in the fall,

02:25:48   and whether they're ready or not,

02:25:50   or however buggy they are,

02:25:51   and then we'll fix them as best we can until June,

02:25:54   when we start it all over again with next year's thing.

02:25:57   They have, you know, the first step under Federighi

02:26:00   in recent years in terms of annualizing their schedule

02:26:05   was just getting all of the platforms

02:26:08   to have once a year updates, right?

02:26:09   It wasn't that long ago when really only,

02:26:12   you could only count on the iPhone

02:26:14   getting a new .o integer OS update every year,

02:26:18   and sometimes the Mac got one, and sometimes it didn't.

02:26:20   I know many Mac fans would probably right now

02:26:24   listening to me talk here are like,

02:26:26   "Yeah, I wish they'd go back to that

02:26:28   and take every year off and just let them bake for a while."

02:26:32   - They're not often very big ones anymore.

02:26:34   They're mostly just to keep up sync pace,

02:26:37   but to make sure the apps can still sync between devices.

02:26:40   - Yeah, I think so too.

02:26:42   I think that you should take, you know,

02:26:44   people who wish that they would take it slower and focus,

02:26:47   spend more time focusing on bug fixes

02:26:50   and rather than adding new stuff.

02:26:52   I think that starting with, what was last year's?

02:26:56   High Sierra?

02:26:57   - This year's was Ventura, and last year was?

02:26:59   - High Sierra.

02:27:00   Well, I don't know the numbers,

02:27:02   but when they first switched to Mac OS 11,

02:27:04   when they broke out of the everything is 10 point what,

02:27:07   and they redesigned the look of it, and they,

02:27:11   Monterey, all right, so with Mac OS 11 Monterey,

02:27:14   they gave it a whole new look,

02:27:16   like a sort of a second attempt

02:27:18   at the iOS 7 style interface for the Mac,

02:27:22   and I would say going from 11 to 12,

02:27:25   and now this just last week I upgraded my main machine

02:27:28   from 12 to 13 when 13.1 came out.

02:27:32   They're relatively minor, and that the features

02:27:36   you're getting are things like Freeform, right,

02:27:38   which they have to, I mean, I guess,

02:27:40   you know, I say they have to, I guess they could come out

02:27:43   with a version of the Freeform app

02:27:44   that works on older Mac OS, but I get it

02:27:46   why they gated to the OS, and so that they don't have,

02:27:51   they're not launching this new thing

02:27:53   that already has legacy compatibility things to worry about.

02:27:58   I think it's worked pretty well, but to me,

02:27:59   the second, so the first step was getting all

02:28:02   of the major platforms to have a .0 every year

02:28:05   to keep it running, and I think it's worked well

02:28:07   and has kept them, you know, there's downsides

02:28:10   to everything, but I think overall it is,

02:28:13   it's made them more effective, but I think

02:28:16   that the more recent change is a little more subtle,

02:28:20   which is that they are just unabashedly unafraid

02:28:25   to roll out these features that they might talk about

02:28:28   in June, but not roll them out until December

02:28:31   or January or February, right?

02:28:33   App tracking transparency didn't ship

02:28:35   until almost the other way around the calendar,

02:28:39   you know, it was like April before it came out,

02:28:42   and I also think that is much for the better.

02:28:45   It's almost gotten them to the point,

02:28:48   and again, it's Apple's going to be Apple,

02:28:50   and they're gonna do things the Apple way,

02:28:53   and if you're purely a web company,

02:28:57   you know, YouTube, just to name a company

02:28:59   you're familiar with, right?

02:29:00   YouTube doesn't have to worry about version numbers

02:29:03   outside, you know, nobody who's just going to YouTube

02:29:08   to watch a video knows that they're on YouTube version

02:29:11   whatever, there are no version numbers on a website.

02:29:13   - And there's experiments, like you could be

02:29:14   on a 10% experiment at any given time

02:29:16   that looks pretty different than what everyone else

02:29:18   is getting.

02:29:19   - Right, or has different features or stuff like that,

02:29:22   and even if it's just as subtle as taking away

02:29:25   a thumbs down button, and they can roll it out

02:29:27   and see how it works before rolling it out to everybody.

02:29:32   Apple's got, in some ways, Apple's going to be Apple

02:29:35   company culture-wise, and in other ways,

02:29:37   Apple has to be a little different,

02:29:39   because they're creating software that runs

02:29:41   on your personal device, and that's a very different thing,

02:29:45   you know, and it has upsides and downsides.

02:29:47   I think, though, that this new schedule

02:29:49   where major features show up in the dot one,

02:29:52   and then the dot two, and then the dot three,

02:29:54   and even the dot four later in the year

02:29:57   has made those things so much more solid

02:30:01   by the time we actually get our hands on them as users.

02:30:04   - Yeah, I think, like, last year, you and I talked about

02:30:07   the advantages and disadvantages of making them

02:30:09   a roadmap announcement rather than a specific

02:30:11   data announcement, where you have much more time

02:30:15   to work on things versus you have the impetus

02:30:17   to get things done, that maybe, like,

02:30:19   having a deadline is still a really good thing,

02:30:21   and I think they've gotten the best of both worlds now,

02:30:23   where they come out and they say, "This is iOS,"

02:30:26   and they have a set of things that they know

02:30:27   they have to deliver, and they have, like,

02:30:29   compatibility issues and all these different things,

02:30:31   but they also can now stage things out

02:30:33   and even introduce them so they get some time,

02:30:36   so they can get their messaging out on it,

02:30:38   and then they know the part they're gonna deliver

02:30:40   on that day in September for the iPhone,

02:30:42   October for the Mac and the iPad now,

02:30:45   and then they've also said, "This is coming later

02:30:47   in the year," or, "It's coming early next year,"

02:30:49   and that gives them the ability to not have to,

02:30:51   'cause previously they would just say,

02:30:52   "Oh, it's delayed, it's delayed."

02:30:53   That always looks bad, and this just lets them

02:30:55   have a little bit more breathing

02:30:56   with one of those announcements.

02:30:58   - Yeah, I think they're more comfortable,

02:31:00   and I think the features ship in better shape,

02:31:02   and I think it's underappreciated how much,

02:31:06   how good their software management must be

02:31:11   to keep rolling, to keep that annual train rolling

02:31:16   and not get around to the point where,

02:31:20   I don't think it's any surprise that probably

02:31:22   come January, February, an ever-growing number of engineers

02:31:26   will be working on next year's systems,

02:31:29   not this year's systems, but an awful lot of them

02:31:32   will be working on still-upcoming features

02:31:34   for this year's systems.

02:31:36   - Yeah, I mean, they start right after they announce,

02:31:38   they start putting, they have that big pile on Craig's desk

02:31:40   to figure out what comes next.

02:31:43   It's a machine, but it's, and also I think,

02:31:46   unless you go to the developer sessions

02:31:47   or you watch the developer stuff,

02:31:49   you don't appreciate how much under-the-cover features

02:31:51   and changes occur every year as well,

02:31:53   which is like, you'll see the features,

02:31:54   or you'll go, oh, there's not as many features.

02:31:56   Then you start looking through the presentations,

02:31:57   and there's almost always significant changes

02:32:01   under the covers that take a lot of work

02:32:03   to deliver every year.

02:32:04   - Yeah, I agree, so I, you know, kudos to Apple.

02:32:07   It's a good year for the software, I think,

02:32:10   and I think the schedule is settling.

02:32:12   No, I think it's sort of the new normal now,

02:32:14   and I appreciate it.

02:32:15   That brings us to September.

02:32:16   That was the third event that they held.

02:32:19   That was the iPhone introduction event.

02:32:20   iPhones 14 and 14 Pro.

02:32:23   - Did you wanna, were you okay with just,

02:32:25   with the MacBook Air, 'cause that was dubbed up,

02:32:27   but I think we talked about it earlier.

02:32:28   - Oh, yeah. - And the MacBook Pro,

02:32:29   the MacBook Pro 13-inch that got a new chip.

02:32:32   - The, yeah, I guess that counts as WWDC.

02:32:35   I guess we should, you know, I think it's a great product.

02:32:37   I'm about to buy one for a family member.

02:32:41   - Same.

02:32:42   - I don't wanna say who, just in case somebody's listening.

02:32:44   I don't wanna spoil it, but yeah.

02:32:46   I don't have much to say other than that it is the,

02:32:50   it, in how, you know, six months later,

02:32:52   it's exactly the MacBook Air I wanted Apple to build.

02:32:56   You know, it is super thin.

02:32:57   It is, it runs cool, has a beautiful screen.

02:33:01   You know, I don't really have much to add

02:33:03   other than, you know, how I reviewed it,

02:33:05   but I feel like my review stands up.

02:33:07   I think it's a home run, and I think it's a form factor

02:33:10   that will suit the product for a happy number of years

02:33:13   going forward.

02:33:15   - I agree.

02:33:16   I also think that, I think one of the biggest problems

02:33:17   with it, though, was the review cycle,

02:33:18   because we had a bunch of people who decided

02:33:21   they wanted to review it as if it was a Mac Pro,

02:33:23   maybe just because it had Apple Silicon in it,

02:33:25   and it doesn't have a fan.

02:33:27   Like, this product is not designed to be a MacBook Pro,

02:33:30   and they would complain that it would hit

02:33:32   the thermal envelope and ramp down,

02:33:34   when that is exactly what it was designed

02:33:36   and intended to do, because people who, like,

02:33:38   people like me who wanna, like, make big video projects,

02:33:41   we have MacBook Pros because we can run them full out

02:33:44   for 20 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half.

02:33:46   On a MacBook Air, it's mostly documents work,

02:33:48   and if the processor can launch up and then ramp down

02:33:52   when it needs to, like, you're opening your app super fast,

02:33:54   you're, like, opening your web pages super fast.

02:33:57   That's not a design flaw that's working as intended,

02:33:59   so I was just depressed with a lot of the review cycle

02:34:02   around the MacBook Air.

02:34:03   - Yeah, I do, I, you know,

02:34:05   but I feel like anybody who read those reviews

02:34:09   and was nodding their head in agreement,

02:34:12   even though I'm not sure that's,

02:34:14   I'm with you that it wasn't the fairest way

02:34:18   to measure the MacBook Air,

02:34:20   but at least I think the people who'd read them

02:34:23   and say, "Yeah, I agree with this reviewer,"

02:34:26   well, then, if your conclusion is that you should buy

02:34:28   a MacBook Pro instead, like, probably the real MacBook Pros

02:34:31   in the 14 or 16-inch size, then, yeah,

02:34:34   that's probably what you knew beforehand.

02:34:37   I mean, if you magically thought you were gonna get

02:34:39   a 14-inch MacBook Pro at a lower price

02:34:43   and a thinner form factor,

02:34:45   it, you know, I don't know what you were thinking,

02:34:49   because obviously the MacBook Pros from last year,

02:34:53   at the end of 2021, were all new form factors,

02:34:56   so if they could have been thinner,

02:34:57   they would have been thinner.

02:34:58   - Yes. - So, you know.

02:34:59   - Yeah, you're trading that for the thermal envelope

02:35:01   and the fan and all that.

02:35:03   - Right, I guess what we, you know,

02:35:04   what I could say in hindsight about the MacBook Air

02:35:06   before we move on is that now we see what Apple Silicon

02:35:09   can do to a laptop form factor, right?

02:35:12   - Yes. - What it can enable.

02:35:13   As opposed to putting it into a husk

02:35:17   that was designed for Intel.

02:35:19   You know, here's how much thinner it can be.

02:35:21   And, you know, it's not crazy thin.

02:35:22   It's not like something from Westworld

02:35:24   that's just a credit card, you know, level of thickness.

02:35:27   You know, it's, Apple Silicon is very good,

02:35:30   but it's not, it's not that good.

02:35:31   - It doesn't break the laws of physics.

02:35:33   - Not yet, but. - No, give 'em time.

02:35:36   - Yeah, all right, September, all new iPhones, iPhone 14s.

02:35:40   The new AirPods Pro, that would be my second product

02:35:45   that I would perhaps hold up

02:35:46   as the Apple product of the year.

02:35:48   I love the second generation AirPods Pro as a pedestrian.

02:35:52   - You do right now.

02:35:53   - I lost mine or misplaced them recently

02:35:59   and Find My didn't help, and so I went back to my,

02:36:03   well, no, it was only for an afternoon,

02:36:04   but I needed to run an errand,

02:36:05   so I grabbed my original AirPods Pro and went out

02:36:10   and as a pedestrian in the city, got to a, you know,

02:36:13   immediate A/B test going back

02:36:14   to the older noise cancellation.

02:36:16   - Yeah, yeah. - And I was like,

02:36:17   I can't hear, I can't hear anything.

02:36:19   - I know. - I can't hear anything

02:36:20   when a car goes by. - Yeah, it's hard to go back.

02:36:21   - What else, three new Apple watches,

02:36:23   including the Apple Watch Ultra.

02:36:25   - Sorry, do you have like a, in hindsight now,

02:36:27   we lost the Mini but got the Plus.

02:36:30   - Do I have thoughts on that?

02:36:32   - Yeah. - Yeah, I'm sad.

02:36:34   I'm sad, I wish that they would just do all three sizes

02:36:37   for all three devices, you know.

02:36:39   I wish that there were,

02:36:41   I wish they made-- - Six by far every year.

02:36:43   - Yeah, I wish they did six,

02:36:44   Pro and not Pro at the Mini, regular,

02:36:48   and either call it Plus or call it Max size,

02:36:51   but I understand why they don't

02:36:53   and everybody, by all accounts,

02:36:55   the Mini really did sell disappointingly.

02:36:57   - Yeah. - So I get it,

02:36:59   but boy, when I see somebody who has a Mini,

02:37:03   I still think, wow, that is an awesome looking iPhone.

02:37:06   And so it makes me a little sad, but I don't blame 'em.

02:37:08   What about you?

02:37:09   - My hot take is that the Mini,

02:37:11   people really loved it who were stuck at computers all day

02:37:13   and when they left their computer,

02:37:16   and maybe they had three or four computers,

02:37:17   and when they left it, the last thing they wanted

02:37:18   was another full-on computer.

02:37:20   So it was great to just have a phone

02:37:22   that could still do everything.

02:37:23   But for a lot of people in the world,

02:37:25   that's their only or their primary computer

02:37:26   and they just want the biggest screen possible

02:37:28   to do as many things as they can on.

02:37:30   So the bigger ones just outsell,

02:37:32   vastly outsell the smaller ones.

02:37:34   - Yeah, so it is what it is.

02:37:37   It's pour one out for the iPhone 13 Mini,

02:37:41   which I really do think will be the last Mini.

02:37:44   Because I also think that the rumors,

02:37:48   it makes all the sense in the world

02:37:49   that the next iPhone SE is not going to be based

02:37:52   on the Mini, it'll be based on the iPhone 10R/iPhone 11

02:37:57   non-pro with the thicker bezel, the regular LCD screen,

02:38:03   LED, not OLED, whatever you call it.

02:38:06   - Retina.

02:38:07   - Liquid Retina.

02:38:08   It makes all the sense in the world

02:38:10   'cause it's also a more one-size-fits-all size

02:38:14   where it's a little bigger than the regular iPhones,

02:38:18   but it's not the, you're gonna have to pay

02:38:21   some sort of premium to get a plus-size phone.

02:38:24   - There was four years before the other SEs,

02:38:25   so four years between this

02:38:27   and the new design makes sense anyway.

02:38:30   - Apple Watch Ultra, I continue to see more of them

02:38:32   in the wild, I forget his name, Greg,

02:38:35   I forget his surname, but he was the coach

02:38:37   of the US men's national team.

02:38:39   He was wearing one throughout the US men's team run

02:38:43   at the World Cup.

02:38:44   And I, you know, I noticed, I've always--

02:38:47   It's, everybody, you know, and at least all the downsides

02:38:52   are so obvious.

02:38:53   What's the downside?

02:38:54   Well, it is more expensive, you know that,

02:38:56   it starts at $800, and it's big, and it's thick

02:39:00   compared to all the other Apple Watches.

02:39:03   And you know that, so if you go to the store

02:39:05   and you try it on, and you're like, I'm cool,

02:39:06   I actually, you know, many people prefer the bigger size,

02:39:10   and other people who may not prefer it,

02:39:12   but are like, I'm fine with it,

02:39:13   but I want the extra battery life,

02:39:15   I want this slightly bigger screen, you know?

02:39:18   People I know, I don't know, I know several friends

02:39:21   who've purchased one, and I don't know anybody

02:39:22   who regrets it, 'cause I think you know

02:39:24   what you're getting into. - So a mutual friend,

02:39:26   Georgia Dow, she bought one, and she had the smallest

02:39:29   Apple Watch, and she wore it intermittently,

02:39:31   but she's been wearing the Apple Watch Ultra all the time,

02:39:34   and she dives, she dives with sharks,

02:39:36   which still flabbergasts me.

02:39:38   And for her, it's better than renting a dive watch,

02:39:41   'cause she can use it for everything else as well.

02:39:43   So what I loved was when Justine interviewed Cayenne,

02:39:47   and you see the Apple Watch Ultra on both of their wrists,

02:39:49   and you're just like, yeah, the size

02:39:51   doesn't matter that much anymore.

02:39:52   - Yeah, I thought that even at the hands-on area

02:39:54   after the introduction, I know you weren't there,

02:39:56   but you know how those hands-on areas are often,

02:40:00   well, they are, they're manned by, staffed by people

02:40:03   from Apple product marketing, and when I got my hands-on

02:40:06   time with the Apple Watch, it was with a woman

02:40:08   who had very, very petite wrists,

02:40:12   but she was wearing one today, and I was like,

02:40:14   that looks fine.

02:40:15   And she was like, yeah, I've had one on for a while,

02:40:17   and it takes a little getting used to,

02:40:20   'cause it's a little surprising if you're going

02:40:22   from the smaller Apple Watch all the way to this one.

02:40:25   But yeah, women can, women, the small-wristed among us

02:40:30   can get away with it if they want to,

02:40:31   and like I wrote in my review,

02:40:33   don't overthink it, you know.

02:40:35   It's easy to get self-conscious,

02:40:37   'cause you're looking at your wrist,

02:40:38   and this thing looks so big on your wrist,

02:40:41   nobody else is gonna think that person

02:40:43   is wearing a goofily large watch.

02:40:45   It's a great idea.

02:40:47   - It goes for days, and there's so much stuff.

02:40:49   - I'm curious where they go.

02:40:51   I would like to see my one wish for next year

02:40:53   with Ultra 2 would be if they offer it in the dark as well,

02:40:57   space gray, space black, call it what you want,

02:41:00   but make a black one or a dark gray one too

02:41:03   to go along with the natural titanium color.

02:41:06   - Make the Batman version of the watch, that's all I want.

02:41:08   - What else do we have here?

02:41:09   We gotta wrap this up.

02:41:11   - Yes, there's gonna be next year.

02:41:14   - Yeah, we have, and then I guess what,

02:41:15   the last hardware announcements of the year

02:41:17   were the new iPads from October,

02:41:19   which we sort of talked about already,

02:41:21   so, you know, and we're just, you know,

02:41:24   the regular iPad goes to the iPad Air style,

02:41:27   and you know, right on time, I don't,

02:41:30   it's hard as somebody who's more interested

02:41:33   at the very high end of the market

02:41:36   for all of Apple's devices to really pour myself into it,

02:41:39   but I'm glad that the people in the market

02:41:42   for a $400-ish iPad have the option to join

02:41:47   the, you know, modern interface world.

02:41:50   - Edge to edge world, yeah.

02:41:51   - The edge to edge world.

02:41:53   - Yeah, same, same.

02:41:55   And the other thing that I forgot that impressed me

02:41:57   was I don't know when it's coming out,

02:41:58   but the new CarPlay looked pretty good to me.

02:42:01   - Ah, from WWDC?

02:42:03   - Yeah, I just saw a picture of it.

02:42:05   - Yeah, that's an interesting question going forward

02:42:08   because of the way Apple teased that at WWDC,

02:42:11   where they sort of made it seem,

02:42:14   coming out of the keynote, we all thought,

02:42:15   wow, that's an impressive list of people,

02:42:18   of car companies who are on board with this already,

02:42:21   but then it turns out that that was really

02:42:23   a little bit of sleight of hand where it was,

02:42:25   these are the car companies making CarPlay-compatible cars,

02:42:30   not necessarily who've already signed on

02:42:32   to do the new CarPlay, you know,

02:42:35   with the dashboard spanning multiple display,

02:42:38   take advantage of whatever crazy irregular shapes

02:42:42   the car maker might make the displays in their dashboard.

02:42:47   But, you know, why not support it?

02:42:49   I don't know, I think CarPlay's been successful enough

02:42:52   and Apple has seemingly, again, I asked at my live show

02:42:56   with Jaws and Federighi, I thought,

02:42:59   it's probably my best joke of the year,

02:43:01   was something to the effect of how to, you know,

02:43:04   it's almost as though you guys are making a car

02:43:06   or something like that, I forget what I said.

02:43:07   - Yeah, that was great.

02:43:08   - But alluding to the fact-- - It's almost as good

02:43:09   when you asked them how much the wheels would cost

02:43:10   and they asked you how many you wanted.

02:43:11   - Right, that was pretty good, that was pretty good.

02:43:13   Yeah, yeah, you know, for a company that is rumored

02:43:16   to be getting into the car business themselves

02:43:18   and has been for years, they've clearly done,

02:43:21   in my opinion, a very good job of getting a broad-away array

02:43:25   of car makers to support CarPlay about as well

02:43:28   as you could hope that it supported.

02:43:30   - Yeah, and my understanding is they're gonna work

02:43:32   with them to customize this a lot,

02:43:34   so it's gonna be very, like, geared into each individual car

02:43:37   that they make the deals for.

02:43:39   - Right, other than that, though, you know,

02:43:41   let's call it a year.

02:43:42   See you next year, Rene.

02:43:43   Anyway, congratulations on your big year.

02:43:46   Thank you so much, as ever, for your time today

02:43:49   and for doing this show, which is--

02:43:52   - Anytime. - Long, long,

02:43:53   but I think we brought it home.

02:43:55   We brought it home with fuel left in the tank.

02:43:58   - Yes, we left them wanting just a little bit more.

02:44:01   - Just a little bit more.

02:44:02   Maybe I'll bet, I wouldn't be surprised,

02:44:05   I would not be surprised, conversely,

02:44:06   if 2022 was a light year for Apple hardware announcements

02:44:11   because of COVID, maybe, you know,

02:44:13   I could see 2023 going both ways,

02:44:15   where it still might be affected

02:44:17   because their product runways are that long,

02:44:20   or it might be, though, that things that were supposed

02:44:23   to have already come out start coming out anyway, right?

02:44:25   So they might be behind where they wanted to have been,

02:44:30   but will be busy anyway

02:44:32   because stuff that had been postponed is now ready.

02:44:34   So I wouldn't be surprised-- - Yeah, it's like traffic.

02:44:36   - A year from now. - It's like,

02:44:37   or an accordion, it compresses and expands.

02:44:39   It's not like a linear thing.

02:44:40   - Right, I would not be surprised if next, come next year,

02:44:43   we have much more to talk about hardware-wise.

02:44:45   Anyway, I will also lastly thank our sponsors.

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02:45:10   Thank you, Renee.