The Talk Show

336: ‘He Looked Like a Fred’, With John Moltz


00:00:00   Let's do something unusual.

00:00:01   Let's actually talk about stuff that's in the news.

00:00:03   OK.

00:00:04   It's your show.

00:00:05   Is it?

00:00:07   Is it?

00:00:08   That's what I've been given to understand.

00:00:10   Till somebody comes in and takes it away from me.

00:00:12   Is there a hostile takeover happening

00:00:14   that I don't know about?

00:00:15   Well, I don't know.

00:00:16   I grew up thinking that if you have a talk show,

00:00:19   then eventually somebody comes and takes it away from you.

00:00:22   I guess that's true, yeah.

00:00:23   But you had Guy on last week, right?

00:00:24   He didn't take it away.

00:00:25   So if Guy didn't take it away, then--

00:00:27   Yeah.

00:00:28   Yeah, if anybody's going to take it away, it's probably Guy.

00:00:30   Do you see Letterman is going to be on the late night

00:00:34   with Seth Meyers on Tuesday.

00:00:36   I did, yeah.

00:00:37   That'll probably be worth watching.

00:00:39   I'm extremely excited because, of course, a big Letterman fan.

00:00:42   I also-- my personal favorite of the current late night talk shows

00:00:48   is Seth Meyers' show.

00:00:49   I really enjoy it.

00:00:50   I feel like their closer looks should

00:00:53   be winning some sort of awards.

00:00:55   I don't know.

00:00:55   They're very good little mini political current event

00:00:58   essays that are also funny.

00:01:00   But also, Letterman, I mean, he's my favorite host.

00:01:03   But he's also-- he's like the prototypical good guest on a show.

00:01:07   So--

00:01:07   Yeah, absolutely.

00:01:09   --ready to nerd out on Tuesday night.

00:01:11   You've seen him in the--

00:01:12   I think those are the outtakes for the movie of Between Two Ferns.

00:01:16   Yes, I think so, yeah.

00:01:17   They're very funny.

00:01:18   I forget what he called it, Crystal Meth Santa Claus?

00:01:24   Yeah.

00:01:24   [LAUGHTER]

00:01:26   Oh, man.

00:01:28   He was absolutely amazing.

00:01:30   Yeah, the outtake-- I like the movie.

00:01:31   I love the Between Two Ferns.

00:01:33   That's Zach Galifianakis' not really fake talk show or interview show.

00:01:39   It is real interviews.

00:01:40   Hillary Clinton famously did it before the 2016 election.

00:01:44   A lot of good at dinner.

00:01:45   Yeah, really.

00:01:46   Maybe, who knows?

00:01:47   Maybe it helped.

00:01:47   But real people with Zach Galifianakis asking absolutely absurd

00:01:54   questions.

00:01:55   Very rude.

00:01:56   Right, very rude.

00:01:57   And then they made a motion picture of it, which was--

00:02:01   it was OK.

00:02:02   I thought it was OK, too, yeah.

00:02:03   Yeah.

00:02:03   I enjoyed it well enough.

00:02:04   The outtakes were actually--

00:02:06   But the outtakes are absolutely the best.

00:02:09   It's worth renting, even if you get into the movie.

00:02:12   I don't love the movie.

00:02:14   I might just stop.

00:02:15   Skip ahead to the credits, because they're amazing.

00:02:17   It's just seeing him break.

00:02:19   That's always my favorite part of Saturday Night Live,

00:02:21   where they break form and start-- they can't control themselves.

00:02:24   They're laughing so hard.

00:02:25   And just seeing him start cracking up and then

00:02:29   apologize, just like, I'm so sorry.

00:02:32   Hillary has to be asked, Brie Larson, if her parents' breakup was her fault.

00:02:39   Yeah.

00:02:40   Anyway, in the news, we've got Apple results.

00:02:47   We've got new betas of Mac OS 12.3 and iOS 15.4 coming out and anything else.

00:02:54   I don't know.

00:02:55   I guess we should start with the results.

00:02:57   Because one thing-- I think you've been on the show at some point

00:03:00   shortly after results before.

00:03:02   And I always say, if one thing savvy investors always do

00:03:05   is tune into this podcast for their--

00:03:08   For their results information?

00:03:09   Yeah.

00:03:10   Five-minute results information.

00:03:12   But it is-- it's like my quick takeaway that I wrote on Darren Fireball,

00:03:16   is if you can have, as the most profitable company and biggest

00:03:20   by market cap in the world, a boring, record-breaking quarter,

00:03:25   Apple has been doing it pretty consistently.

00:03:28   Yeah, and I was thinking about that.

00:03:29   We used to hang on these results a lot.

00:03:31   And now they just seem like a non-event, to a certain degree.

00:03:36   Obviously, sometimes it's a big deal.

00:03:38   And various things can happen.

00:03:40   But I don't feel like it's as dire as it used to be.

00:03:46   And maybe that was still a hangover from the days

00:03:49   when we thought that Apple might go out of business at some point.

00:03:52   I do think what comes up must come down.

00:03:55   Eventually, Apple is going to not be the biggest company in the world.

00:03:58   They will-- is it a five-year thing, a 10-year thing?

00:04:03   Is it after you and I are dead, 25, 30 years from now?

00:04:06   But it will happen, right?

00:04:08   I mean, the East India Trading Company is not that big a deal anymore.

00:04:12   How were their results this week?

00:04:14   I don't know if they've announced them yet.

00:04:16   It's going to change eventually.

00:04:18   But in the near term, it is hard to see how Apple's--

00:04:23   they really seem to have a very consistent and solid business.

00:04:29   Like, the primary things that are driving revenue and profit,

00:04:33   the devices, iPhone and iPad and Mac and AirPods and watches and the services

00:04:40   is growing.

00:04:41   And there just is not that much cyclical fluctuation

00:04:45   like there were in times past.

00:04:46   And I can't help but think, too, that how long are we?

00:04:50   We're like, what?

00:04:51   Just past-- yeah, we were just celebrating Tim Cook's 10 years as CEO,

00:04:56   I believe.

00:04:57   Yeah, exactly.

00:04:57   11.

00:04:58   Yeah, so the end of 2021.

00:04:59   So it's a whole decade, which is a long run.

00:05:03   But it's like, towards the latter few years of this decade of Tim Cook

00:05:08   as CEO, the company has taken more and more of his personality,

00:05:12   in my opinion.

00:05:14   And in the way that it's--

00:05:17   obviously, what we think of with Steve Jobs and Apple

00:05:21   were his product decisions and his taste in the products.

00:05:24   And Tim Cook doesn't do that.

00:05:26   He doesn't try to.

00:05:26   He never pretends like, hey, I'm the genius who's

00:05:29   going to come up with the next big thing.

00:05:31   But it's his personality.

00:05:32   What is his personality?

00:05:34   It's like competent, smart, consistent.

00:05:37   And that's the company now, the company.

00:05:41   And I just think about little things.

00:05:43   Remember when Jobs was CEO--

00:05:46   I forget what year it was, but there was a somewhat serious stock options

00:05:51   scandal, controversy, where they'd--

00:05:56   They backdated a bunch of stock ins for him.

00:05:59   And for other executives, I think.

00:06:01   But I think it was for him, too.

00:06:03   But it was fishy.

00:06:04   And you just say, backdated stock options.

00:06:07   And you already think, that doesn't even-- that already sounds like it's fishy.

00:06:10   Just sort of a fast and loose approach to dealing with it.

00:06:15   And it seemed like the long story short of, hey, can we do this?

00:06:18   And somebody was like, I don't know if we should do this.

00:06:21   And they're like, well, Steve says to do it.

00:06:23   And they're like, OK.

00:06:25   And that's how they got into trouble.

00:06:26   Nobody went to jail.

00:06:27   And they worked it out.

00:06:28   And I don't know if they paid a fine or whatever.

00:06:30   I can't remember the guy's name, the guy who was the CFO at the time.

00:06:34   But he retired not long after that.

00:06:37   And I think he ended up-- he might have gotten fined or something.

00:06:40   I think that--

00:06:41   I probably shouldn't say that because maybe that's not true.

00:06:43   But I feel like he was at least interviewed.

00:06:46   There were some definite concerns about what happened.

00:06:48   I'll find a link to the backdated options scandal.

00:06:52   And we don't have to talk about it.

00:06:53   Is it Anderson?

00:06:54   Is that the guy?

00:06:54   Yeah, it was in his name.

00:06:56   Yeah.

00:06:56   Yeah, that's it.

00:06:57   Fred Anderson.

00:06:57   Fred.

00:06:58   Yeah, he looked like a Fred.

00:07:02   I would say, in the same way-- many people have made this joke.

00:07:06   But if you live in Great Britain and you name your son Jeeves,

00:07:14   the kid is probably going to grow up to be a manservant or a butler,

00:07:17   whatever you call it.

00:07:19   I mean, what else has he got?

00:07:20   I say I like a CFO named Fred.

00:07:25   Just saying, it's a good name for a CFO.

00:07:27   It's got the F.

00:07:28   Yeah, it was Fred Anderson.

00:07:30   I got it right.

00:07:31   Yeah, it wasn't shocking, though.

00:07:32   Ah, they're going to work it out.

00:07:34   It's not that big a deal.

00:07:34   It doesn't seem like anybody actually stole anything.

00:07:36   It just seems like they didn't dot every I, cross every T,

00:07:39   and they're not supposed to do what they did.

00:07:41   And you can pay a fine or throw one employee under the bus

00:07:44   and you keep going.

00:07:46   So yeah, the SEC filed a complaint against him.

00:07:48   But it wasn't shocking, right?

00:07:50   It's not--

00:07:50   No, and it wasn't that unusual at the time either, really.

00:07:54   There were lots of companies that were doing the same.

00:07:56   It's not right.

00:07:57   You're not supposed to do it.

00:07:59   But there were a number of companies that were doing it

00:08:02   during that period.

00:08:03   But if it happened under Tim Cook, wouldn't it be--

00:08:06   it would be shocking.

00:08:07   Yeah, it would be much more shocking.

00:08:09   And it's just that he is more of a--

00:08:12   I don't know, how would you describe it?

00:08:14   By the book?

00:08:14   But that sort of makes it seem like he's conservative,

00:08:18   in the lowercase c, conservative.

00:08:21   And I don't think he is.

00:08:23   It's just not in his personality to play fast and loose.

00:08:27   Whatever the opposite of fast and loose is, that's Tim Cook.

00:08:31   And you just--

00:08:32   He's more careful.

00:08:32   If he's going to break the rules,

00:08:34   he's going to make sure that he covers.

00:08:36   Right.

00:08:37   And I just think that it just shows in the company's results.

00:08:41   And they famously had very consistent profit margins.

00:08:44   But under Steve Jobs, they had bad quarters and good quarters.

00:08:47   And the company was different too.

00:08:49   If Jobs hadn't had cancer and had lived longer,

00:08:54   it's quite possible that under Steve Jobs

00:08:56   still as CEO or as the chairman of the board with Tim Cook

00:08:59   as CEO, but still with Steve Jobs around,

00:09:03   the company would have gotten more consistent in this way

00:09:05   anyway as they grew bigger.

00:09:07   They're so much bigger than they were when Steve Jobs died.

00:09:10   It's just absolutely mind boggling

00:09:13   how much more money they make and how many more of everything

00:09:17   they sell.

00:09:18   But they're just--

00:09:19   I look at these results, and it's

00:09:21   like huge mind boggling sums of money.

00:09:24   And it's just very consistent and somehow predictable.

00:09:28   Yeah.

00:09:29   I think Microsoft used to get dinged

00:09:31   for shuffling around revenue between quarters,

00:09:36   like trying to move revenue back and forth in order

00:09:39   to smooth out their revenue.

00:09:41   And I wouldn't be surprised that Apple does something similar,

00:09:45   but much more careful than--

00:09:48   probably less hamfisted than maybe

00:09:49   that Microsoft was doing it.

00:09:51   One of the things that they talked about in the conference

00:09:53   call was the fact that iPad sales were down,

00:09:57   but they blamed constraints.

00:09:59   They blamed part constraints, right?

00:10:01   Yeah, component constraints.

00:10:02   Yeah, but also at the same time, there

00:10:05   was that story a few months back about the fact

00:10:07   that they were repurposing iPad chips for iPhones.

00:10:11   So in a way, I mean, that's a constraint.

00:10:13   But you decided that the constraint

00:10:15   was going to be on iPads rather than on iPhones.

00:10:17   I do think, too, iPad is--

00:10:19   of the three computing platforms--

00:10:22   and I know that Apple Watch is actually a little Unix

00:10:25   computer, and there's actually little Unix computers

00:10:29   in your AirPods.

00:10:30   I mean, everything's a computer now.

00:10:31   But the three that we think of as personal computing devices--

00:10:34   the phone, iPad, and Mac--

00:10:36   iPad has always been weird in its chart

00:10:42   of unit sales and revenue.

00:10:46   It's like it had these crazy first handful of go-go years,

00:10:51   where as a nine-month-old product

00:10:53   or as a 18-month-old product, it was ahead of the iPhone

00:10:57   from when the iPhone was nine months old or 18 months old.

00:11:00   From introduction to now, for years--

00:11:03   at first, a couple of years-- the iPad

00:11:05   was ahead of the iPhone.

00:11:06   And I'll admit to buying into-- maybe it's

00:11:09   just so many more people have been exposed

00:11:12   to Apple who never really thought about buying Apple

00:11:15   stuff.

00:11:15   Maybe this line will keep going, and it's just always

00:11:19   going to stay ahead of the iPhone and the iPad's going

00:11:21   to be the bigger deal.

00:11:23   Turns out that wasn't the case.

00:11:25   And eventually, they went from like $20 million per quarter

00:11:28   down to like $10 million, $9 million.

00:11:31   They don't release unit sales anymore.

00:11:33   They just release revenue.

00:11:34   But it was weird.

00:11:36   It cut in half.

00:11:37   And I really do think it was a simple explanation, which

00:11:40   is that iPads last forever.

00:11:44   You don't abuse them like you do your phone physically.

00:11:47   You don't tend to drop them.

00:11:48   They're not in your pocket all the time.

00:11:49   They don't go everywhere with you.

00:11:51   And what people tend to do on an iPad,

00:11:55   it doesn't matter if it's four years old or five years old.

00:11:58   People just find four or five-year-old iPads

00:12:00   to be just as good as the day they bought them.

00:12:02   And maybe they'd be pleasantly surprised

00:12:04   if somebody replaced their regular coffee with Folgers

00:12:07   crystals.

00:12:08   Somebody came in and said, ha, the iPad you've been using

00:12:11   is actually the new iPad Air.

00:12:13   And they'd be like, huh, I thought my home button

00:12:15   disappeared.

00:12:16   [LAUGHTER]

00:12:18   Yeah, I think I roll mine over about as often

00:12:20   as I roll my Macs over, I would say.

00:12:23   Yeah, and I keep my Macs for years and years too.

00:12:25   I've got the first 11-inch iPad Pro.

00:12:28   I actually have it right here with my show notes.

00:12:30   So it's from 2018?

00:12:32   2018, yeah.

00:12:33   That's the one I have.

00:12:34   I've even reviewed newer ones, because they send them to me

00:12:37   and I write reviews.

00:12:38   And it's, yeah, these are nice.

00:12:39   And I still can't think of a damn thing

00:12:41   that would be any better or faster than this.

00:12:45   Well, that was what we--

00:12:47   I'm sure you did this as well, but Jason Snell every year

00:12:50   asks for people to do a report card.

00:12:53   I'll spoil mine a little bit, but for Apple.

00:12:55   And the thing that I said about the iPad

00:12:57   was the new iPad Mini is the coolest device

00:13:00   that I just simply have absolutely no reason to buy.

00:13:04   I really want one, but I am not going to use--

00:13:07   I have my 11-inch Air--

00:13:10   or not Air, 11-inch Pro.

00:13:11   And I'm not going to--

00:13:12   there's no reason for me to buy that.

00:13:14   And yet, every once in a while, I'll go onto the website

00:13:17   and just look at it and think, oh, man, that'd be cool to have.

00:13:20   It was worse for me, because they sent me one.

00:13:22   I had to review you, and I really did enjoy it.

00:13:25   But it really did feel to me--

00:13:27   I feel like my--

00:13:30   I was actually-- I actually put this in the show notes

00:13:32   that somebody, R. Stevens, reminded me

00:13:35   that the iPad was introduced 12 years ago, I think yesterday.

00:13:39   What was his-- he had a little quip about it.

00:13:42   Yeah, I think he said he'd only owned three.

00:13:45   I've owned three.

00:13:46   I'm still not entirely sure what they're for.

00:13:49   And that's still how I feel.

00:13:51   I still feel like I depend on, need, and love both my iPhone

00:13:58   and my MacBook Pro.

00:14:01   And if I really could only have one, recreationally,

00:14:06   I'd rather have the iPhone.

00:14:07   But for work, I'd rather have the MacBook Pro.

00:14:10   If I were sentenced to prison, and they said,

00:14:13   but you can take one device with you,

00:14:15   I would take the MacBook Pro.

00:14:16   But both of them feel essential to me.

00:14:19   And the iPad feels to me like this is very nice to have,

00:14:23   and I enjoy using it for long--

00:14:25   I really enjoy using it to read a long article,

00:14:27   or even an e-book, or something like that.

00:14:30   But I don't need it.

00:14:32   That's interesting.

00:14:33   If you included the iPad in that question,

00:14:36   if you could only have one, I might pick the iPad.

00:14:39   Because the iPad with the Magic Keyboard is pretty good,

00:14:43   and does most everything.

00:14:45   And it's more portable, and it lets me--

00:14:47   There's some, there's still some--

00:14:48   I guess there's probably--

00:14:48   I'm sure you could do it through the website, maybe.

00:14:51   But like, HBO Max, and some other ones.

00:14:53   And even Amazon just came out with a viewer thing for--

00:14:56   not just, but maybe a month or two ago-- for the Mac.

00:14:59   But it was a little skippy for me

00:15:01   when I watched something using their viewer on the Mac.

00:15:04   And it's much more smooth on the iPad.

00:15:06   So I just prefer watching stuff on the iPad.

00:15:09   That's true.

00:15:10   That's true, if you could stream.

00:15:12   It depends if I wanted to work or be entertained.

00:15:14   And it is--

00:15:15   If I'm going to jail, I think I want to be entertained.

00:15:17   Yeah, to hell with this.

00:15:18   Somebody else-- to hell with my family.

00:15:20   I'm not writing this website while I'm in prison.

00:15:23   Take care of yourselves.

00:15:25   I'll be back in 5 to 10.

00:15:27   But it would be preposterous for me

00:15:29   to both keep my 11-inch 2018 iPad Pro,

00:15:33   and get an iPad Mini.

00:15:34   Like, just to have a dessert on my dessert device,

00:15:39   it just doesn't have a role for me.

00:15:42   And I don't need to replace my iPad.

00:15:44   And if I did replace my iPad, I really

00:15:46   would rather have one that's big enough

00:15:48   to have a Magic Keyboard.

00:15:49   And so it's not.

00:15:50   But it is an adorable device.

00:15:52   And I've always loved the form factor of the iPad Mini.

00:15:55   For many-- most of the early years of iPad,

00:15:58   my personal iPad was a Mini.

00:16:00   And I really enjoyed it.

00:16:01   Here, let me take a break.

00:16:03   And we'll get back to the results.

00:16:05   But I'll take a break here and thank our first sponsor,

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00:16:09   Oh, man.

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00:17:44   So iPad sales were down like 14% year over year,

00:17:47   quarter to quarter.

00:17:48   I didn't realize it.

00:17:50   There were some things I looked up.

00:17:51   The last time I was on CNBC for one

00:17:54   of those little three-minute things that I--

00:17:56   it was like three minutes of torture for me.

00:17:58   I don't know why I ever agreed to do it.

00:18:00   I get so stressed out.

00:18:01   But I looked up.

00:18:02   I remember it was like right after a bunch of the fall

00:18:05   October devices came out.

00:18:07   And it was like the Apple Watch was already backordered

00:18:11   into late November.

00:18:12   It feels-- and again, I think it's one of those Tim Cook

00:18:16   things.

00:18:17   We just take Tim Cook for granted, the things

00:18:19   that he's the best at.

00:18:20   And operations and the supply chain stuff,

00:18:23   for all of the hand wringing that everybody around the world

00:18:27   went through for supply chain constraints and shipping

00:18:31   boats that were backed up outside Los Angeles waiting

00:18:34   for room at the harbor because everything got all backed up.

00:18:37   Stuck in a canal.

00:18:38   Stuck in a canal.

00:18:39   Right, somebody actually--

00:18:42   that's exactly what would happen, by the way, if I ever--

00:18:45   if they ever said, Gruber, take the wheel.

00:18:47   Oh my god.

00:18:48   And I'd say, are you sure?

00:18:49   And they'd say, yeah, well, five minutes.

00:18:51   What could go wrong?

00:18:52   Five minutes.

00:18:53   Just take the wheel.

00:18:54   I got to hit the head.

00:18:55   I'll be back in five minutes.

00:18:56   Next thing--

00:18:56   Just keep it pointed straight.

00:18:57   Yeah, next thing you know.

00:19:00   You're in a canal.

00:19:01   What could go wrong?

00:19:02   I've blocked the Suez Canal.

00:19:04   That would happen.

00:19:04   I guarantee it.

00:19:05   I cannot-- did you ever drive a rental moving truck?

00:19:09   Oh, yeah.

00:19:10   One time-- oh god, it must have been 1999.

00:19:14   Amy was moving from Pittsburgh back to Philadelphia.

00:19:17   And me and a friend were going to rent a truck here

00:19:20   in Philadelphia and then drive out to Pittsburgh,

00:19:24   load up her stuff, and then hit right back.

00:19:27   It's about a five-hour drive, maybe a little longer.

00:19:31   And a rental truck, they don't go my speed.

00:19:33   No.

00:19:34   So a long day, five hours one way, load up a truck.

00:19:37   Five hours the other way, unload the truck.

00:19:40   It was going to be a long day, but better to knock it out.

00:19:43   Anyway, I go in the morning.

00:19:44   I pick up the rental truck and pull out of the lot.

00:19:48   And I got to make a right-hand turn.

00:19:51   And I took the right-hand turn at a light a little too close.

00:19:55   Boom.

00:19:56   I could hear it.

00:19:57   The tire hit the curb.

00:20:00   And by the time I got to the next corner,

00:20:02   I could tell I had blew the tire right out of the lot.

00:20:06   So I just went around the block, pulled right back

00:20:08   into the budget.

00:20:09   It was a budget.

00:20:10   And I said, hey, what's the deal?

00:20:12   You gave me a lousy tire.

00:20:14   You gave me a bum tire.

00:20:15   And the guy is like, oh, I'm sorry.

00:20:17   I'm so sorry, because he was the same guy who just gave me

00:20:19   the keys about four minutes before.

00:20:21   I was like, what the hell?

00:20:22   I got to get to Pittsburgh.

00:20:23   He's, hold on, let me see what else I got.

00:20:25   Gives me another truck.

00:20:27   But this one didn't look the same.

00:20:28   This one was-- remember Isuzu?

00:20:32   You don't hear about Isuzu.

00:20:34   Whatever happened to that company?

00:20:35   No, I know.

00:20:35   I thought about them the other day.

00:20:36   I was like, for some reason, Joe Isuzu popped into my head.

00:20:39   Yeah, now I got to put that in the show notes.

00:20:41   What the hell ever happened to Isuzu?

00:20:43   The other one just looked like-- the first one looked like a regular budget

00:20:46   rental truck, the type of thing you would think

00:20:48   you would need to move a 26-year-old single woman from Pittsburgh to Philly.

00:20:53   Not too big, but not a van.

00:20:55   It was a truck.

00:20:56   It was like the smallest truck.

00:20:57   And he gave me an Isuzu.

00:20:58   It was the same size, but it was one of those ones that had no nose.

00:21:03   So you're sitting right over the--

00:21:05   You're sitting right over, yeah.

00:21:07   Right over the front.

00:21:08   And I pick up my friend, and we drive.

00:21:10   And then, like the idiots that we are, we stop at the very first rest station

00:21:15   to get some food.

00:21:17   It's a long drive to Pittsburgh.

00:21:18   And we decide to stop at the first one.

00:21:20   We get, I don't know, some burgers or something like that and get back in.

00:21:24   And the thing won't even start.

00:21:26   Won't start.

00:21:27   Son of a bitch.

00:21:28   And it took four or five hours to get a service guy out there

00:21:33   to change the battery.

00:21:35   So now we're like five, six hours behind.

00:21:37   Anyway, it all worked out.

00:21:38   Also, Amy will verify this.

00:21:40   I did on the way back after-- this is nighttime.

00:21:42   We're driving back from Pittsburgh to Philly.

00:21:45   Almost drove off a cliff.

00:21:46   They say we had like a wheel or two over the edge.

00:21:52   I say it wasn't quite that close.

00:21:54   But--

00:21:55   This is why you can't drive it.

00:21:56   It's one of the reasons I can.

00:21:57   I definitely do not have a truck driver's license.

00:22:00   Yeah.

00:22:00   The crazy thing-- so I grew up in Connecticut.

00:22:02   And a Connecticut driver's license, at least for years--

00:22:05   I don't know if it's like this anymore-- was also considered

00:22:07   a limousine driver's license.

00:22:10   For some reason, I have absolutely no idea.

00:22:12   I didn't take some sub-course in limousine driving

00:22:16   in order to get my license.

00:22:17   But when I went to college, I was

00:22:19   looking for a part-time job to try and make some money

00:22:22   while I was going to school.

00:22:23   And one of the things that I found

00:22:25   was driving for the school, they would pay--

00:22:28   because they would have sometimes parents, but also

00:22:32   people who were coming to speak at the school

00:22:34   and would need a ride from the airport.

00:22:35   So they had a van.

00:22:37   And if you had a Connecticut driver's license,

00:22:39   you were licensed to drive the van.

00:22:40   And so I drove the van.

00:22:43   I had no special skills.

00:22:45   I have no idea how that happened.

00:22:47   And I feel kind of lucky that nobody got injured

00:22:51   while I was driving that van.

00:22:53   Huh.

00:22:53   That's very funny, because my friend John is--

00:22:57   also named John, John--

00:22:59   my roommate from college who was--

00:23:01   Should have him on the podcast with me.

00:23:02   I should.

00:23:03   We all know him.

00:23:03   No confusion at all.

00:23:04   No, none.

00:23:05   My friend John, who was the guy who went with me out

00:23:08   to Pittsburgh, and very-- what a friend, right?

00:23:11   What a friend who's willing to ride all the way to Pittsburgh

00:23:13   to help you.

00:23:14   Any friend that helps you move, that's a solid--

00:23:16   But a day trip from Philly to Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh

00:23:19   round trip, that's a hell of a thing.

00:23:21   But anyway, he had a job in college.

00:23:23   Now Drexel and Penn are right next to each other,

00:23:26   big shared border.

00:23:27   It's effectively one big conglomerate of college campus.

00:23:33   And he was a van driver for the University of Pennsylvania,

00:23:38   even though we went to Drexel.

00:23:39   He got a job at Penn driving like the--

00:23:42   you just sort of have a route, and you just stop.

00:23:46   It's like a bus, but it was a van.

00:23:47   And you'd stop, and if kids at Penn had student ID,

00:23:51   they could just get on for free and ride around.

00:23:54   Well anyway, he liked it.

00:23:56   He enjoyed the job.

00:23:57   It paid good money, I guess.

00:23:59   But one time, he hit somebody.

00:24:01   But it was absolutely not his fault.

00:24:04   It was like an intoxicated college student who

00:24:08   ran in front of his van.

00:24:10   And there were all sorts of witnesses.

00:24:12   It was like a Friday night at 9 o'clock, all sorts

00:24:15   of witnesses.

00:24:16   And he was in no legal trouble.

00:24:18   And everybody agreed it was the kid's fault.

00:24:21   The kid who got hit, I think it was a girl,

00:24:23   but even she admitted it was her fault.

00:24:25   And still, he got fired.

00:24:27   It was company policy.

00:24:28   As soon as you hit somebody, you're fired.

00:24:30   So he lost his job, even though it wasn't his fault.

00:24:34   Yeah, I-- yeah.

00:24:36   And they even said to him, they're like,

00:24:38   that's a tough one, because it really-- this one,

00:24:40   it's usually not so clear cut.

00:24:41   This one wasn't your fault. Policy's policy.

00:24:44   You know who should have that policy is Spotify.

00:24:46   [LAUGHTER]

00:24:50   If you hit somebody?

00:24:51   [LAUGHTER]

00:24:54   Or if you spew COVID nonsense for years on end.

00:25:01   Yeah, maybe.

00:25:02   All right, what else?

00:25:03   Anything else stick out from-- oh, the Mac sales were up.

00:25:06   And that's-- of course.

00:25:07   Also, I don't think you have to be Jim Cramer.

00:25:11   You don't have to be a deep thinker of Wall Street

00:25:13   to figure out what's going on.

00:25:15   The M1 Macs came out at the beginning of last year,

00:25:18   end of 2020.

00:25:20   They're incredibly well-reviewed.

00:25:22   And they've percolated throughout the lineup

00:25:25   to all of the most popular models.

00:25:28   The only remaining ones are the big iMac

00:25:31   and the professional Mac Pro.

00:25:34   And yeah, it's not surprising Mac sales are up.

00:25:38   Record breaking, more Macs being sold in a quarter than ever

00:25:41   before, although they-- again, they don't break down units

00:25:44   anymore, so we can't say, but at least by revenue.

00:25:47   Yeah.

00:25:48   Yeah, right.

00:25:49   And it does not seem surprising.

00:25:51   And they also said the last--

00:25:52   gosh, now I can't remember the number.

00:25:55   6 quarters were the best 6 quarters for the Mac ever.

00:26:00   Yeah, because there was an unusual thing where

00:26:03   part of us, people like us, are like, what kind of an idiot

00:26:07   would buy an Intel Mac in September?

00:26:10   When you knew that Apple Silicon was going.

00:26:12   But they had a record breaking quarter,

00:26:14   like the last quarter of Mac sales

00:26:16   before they even announced the transition.

00:26:19   Even though they announced the transition was coming at WWDC

00:26:22   already, it was as much as Apple ever talks about the future.

00:26:25   But people--

00:26:26   6 quarters is a year and a half.

00:26:28   So I think what that times to is the period after--

00:26:34   I mean, for a while, Apple kind of screwed the Mac up, right?

00:26:38   I mean, the MacBook Pro, the keyboard things, the Touch Bar--

00:26:43   The lack of a retina MacBook Air.

00:26:45   Yeah, I mean, all these things probably

00:26:48   depressed Mac sales to some degree for a while.

00:26:51   And once they addressed those issues,

00:26:55   I think that probably helped a lot.

00:26:58   Yeah, I do too.

00:26:59   Yeah, and I do think--

00:27:00   I don't think it was so much that the company had

00:27:03   lost interest in the Mac.

00:27:04   I just think they knew--

00:27:05   No, I think they were just going in the wrong direction.

00:27:07   Well, and I think they knew this transition was coming.

00:27:10   And they were like, so do we really

00:27:12   want to do x before we actually make this transition?

00:27:15   Why don't we save it?

00:27:16   And they have good ideas for things

00:27:18   to do with the Mac and Mac hardware.

00:27:20   Why don't we save it for when we do Apple Silicon?

00:27:23   And some of the things really depend on it,

00:27:25   like the fact that you get a much, much better

00:27:28   significantly better FaceTime camera for video conference

00:27:31   calls and whatever else you use your MacBook camera for.

00:27:35   You get such better picture out of it

00:27:38   because it gets the image processing

00:27:40   pipeline of Apple Silicon.

00:27:41   Like the first round of--

00:27:43   still for sale, like if you buy the MacBook Air with an M1,

00:27:47   it literally has the same camera as the Intel ones.

00:27:50   And the picture looks like 10 times better

00:27:52   because it's better chips.

00:27:55   And I don't know.

00:27:56   I feel like even with the Mac Pro that there was sort of a,

00:28:00   oh, you know, it's like we really have to do something.

00:28:04   The trash can design isn't working.

00:28:05   But do we really want to throw all of the effort

00:28:09   into going with one generation of Xeon to do all of this?

00:28:13   And then we're going to throw it all out.

00:28:15   And they're like, oh, OK, I guess we have to.

00:28:17   And like the iMac Pro is like that.

00:28:19   The iMac Pro was like--

00:28:21   it still is.

00:28:22   It's like a technical marvel of cooling

00:28:25   that they have these chips that even Intel admits runs hot.

00:28:28   And they've got like this real svelte form factor.

00:28:32   And it doesn't make a lot of noise.

00:28:34   And they made one of them.

00:28:35   And I'm sure that it's not like that their Mac's hardware

00:28:42   engineers have developed muscles for designing and implementing

00:28:48   cooling systems that aren't applicable in the Apple Silicon

00:28:53   world.

00:28:53   I'm sure they are.

00:28:54   And look at how thin the M1 24-inch iMac is.

00:28:58   The fact that it's so crazy thin with no pimple or bulge

00:29:03   anywhere on the back, the fact that they've

00:29:05   honed their chops making cooling systems like the iMac Pro 1.

00:29:08   But still, you can see why they were--

00:29:12   I just think that they were hoping that maybe the Apple

00:29:14   Silicon transition would happen a year or two earlier

00:29:18   than it actually did.

00:29:19   And no one would notice that these Pro Macs were

00:29:24   getting long in the tooth.

00:29:26   And I don't know how much of the keyboards delay.

00:29:28   What clearly, in hindsight, looks like procrastination

00:29:32   on their part.

00:29:33   The problem isn't that they tried these butterfly keyboards.

00:29:36   It made sense.

00:29:37   And some people like less travel or more travel on their keys.

00:29:40   But once it turned out that breadcrumbs and stuff were all

00:29:43   of a sudden your B--

00:29:44   Destroying them.

00:29:44   Yeah, destroying your B key.

00:29:46   And the answer was, well, you need a whole new top case.

00:29:48   It should have been replaced sooner than it was.

00:29:51   And Apple, to their credit, as a company, tends to--

00:29:54   it's not that they don't make mistakes,

00:29:56   but they tend to rectify mistakes somewhat quickly.

00:30:00   This isn't working.

00:30:00   Let's do something different.

00:30:02   Whereas they stuck with a bunch of Mac stuff for years

00:30:04   when they shouldn't have.

00:30:05   And I just don't think it's a coincidence

00:30:07   that they had this transition on the horizon

00:30:09   and sort of wanted to save the good stuff for it.

00:30:12   And I know people who held onto Macbook, older Macbook

00:30:15   pros for years, and completely skipped that generation just

00:30:19   because of the things that they had heard about it.

00:30:20   Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:21   Because you might be thinking, hey,

00:30:23   my MacBook's getting kind of slow.

00:30:25   And you think, but I've never once

00:30:26   had a single problem with the keyboard.

00:30:28   And you hear all these problems.

00:30:30   Yeah.

00:30:31   I mean, I think I was--

00:30:33   at one point during the keyboard saga, I even wrote that.

00:30:36   And it's like, you can talk about whatever

00:30:38   they say that most of our customers

00:30:39   have no complaints, whatever.

00:30:41   But it's like, I've been using computers, just computers,

00:30:44   period.

00:30:44   As long as I can remember.

00:30:46   And I just don't ever remember where there was a problem,

00:30:49   like when you're typing, where you'd try to type 1s

00:30:52   and you'd get three of them or something like that.

00:30:54   It just never happened with anybody's computer.

00:30:57   Yeah.

00:30:58   It just-- it was a problem.

00:31:01   It's also the number of ports, too, I think.

00:31:03   Yeah.

00:31:03   Yeah, that was true.

00:31:04   But anyway, it was a good year for the Mac, corresponding.

00:31:08   Like reviewers and nerds like us look at these new Macs

00:31:11   that Apple's coming out with with Apple Silicon.

00:31:13   We say, these are excellent computers.

00:31:15   And it seems people, tens of millions of people

00:31:18   who are in the market for them agree.

00:31:20   Yeah.

00:31:21   Yeah.

00:31:22   The other things, the other two things

00:31:23   that I noticed were both related,

00:31:25   they said that around half of the customers purchasing

00:31:27   an iPad during the quarter were new to the product.

00:31:30   And also, 2/3 of the customers purchasing an Apple Watch

00:31:33   were new to the product.

00:31:35   But that's another one, too, where I feel like people just

00:31:37   buy one and then they're going to keep it for years and years.

00:31:40   Because that's how people think of their watches.

00:31:42   I don't even remember which one my watch is.

00:31:45   I forgot which model I have.

00:31:47   It's definitely a few years old, but I can't

00:31:49   remember which model it is.

00:31:51   Which is--

00:31:52   I think it's a five.

00:31:53   Yeah, I think that's the way it should be, though.

00:31:55   I really do.

00:31:57   But that really speaks to, especially with the iPad,

00:31:59   if half-- so sales are down, half of them were new.

00:32:03   To me, it just says that there are just tens and tens, maybe

00:32:07   hundreds of millions of people with iPads who are just like,

00:32:11   I'm good.

00:32:11   Yeah.

00:32:12   I think the amazing thing to me about the iPad line

00:32:14   is that eponymous iPad.

00:32:15   Because you can get them for-- they go down to like $230

00:32:20   or something like that at Costco.

00:32:22   I mean, that is a lot of machine for that amount of money.

00:32:27   That is probably the best value that Apple offers.

00:32:30   Yeah, I think the official retail price is $329.

00:32:34   But yeah, they definitely dip below.

00:32:35   Maybe I'm thinking, maybe it's more like $270 or something.

00:32:37   Yeah, they go below $300.

00:32:39   Bang for the buck, it is really just remarkable.

00:32:42   And it goes against the everything

00:32:45   Apple makes is expensive.

00:32:46   It's like, I don't know.

00:32:48   I dare you to find a better computer.

00:32:50   Maybe you don't like iPad OS for whatever reasons.

00:32:54   But in terms of--

00:32:56   Yeah, that's not to say there aren't knocks on it compared

00:32:58   to other devices.

00:32:59   But dollar for dollar, I don't think

00:33:02   you're going to get a better value.

00:33:04   Karen has one-- gosh, she's got one that's a year and a half

00:33:07   old, something like that.

00:33:08   Yeah, I think it's about a year and a half old.

00:33:10   And I was just thinking, maybe for Christmas,

00:33:12   maybe she would like a new one.

00:33:14   She was not interested.

00:33:17   She's like, it's great.

00:33:18   It does everything that I want.

00:33:19   She even doesn't mind the old pencil, particularly.

00:33:22   I mean, I'm sure if she got a new one,

00:33:23   she'd like the new one better.

00:33:25   But she was perfectly happy.

00:33:27   And I was just like, why spend--

00:33:28   I spent a few hundred bucks on this thing,

00:33:30   just shoving something in front of her because it's new.

00:33:34   Anything stand out from you from the analyst call,

00:33:36   the this is Tim, the transcript, not much for me.

00:33:40   I guess the news people are focusing on

00:33:43   is that he said there's 1.8--

00:33:45   Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

00:33:47   --billion Apple devices in use.

00:33:49   I'm not quite sure what they count as a device.

00:33:51   Yeah, and how they were in use.

00:33:53   Because to me, that's the question.

00:33:55   If it's still signed into iCloud or something like that, OK.

00:33:59   I'm not sure if that really counts

00:34:01   because I have a lot of devices that are still

00:34:02   signed into iCloud.

00:34:03   Does my Apple TV remote control count as a device?

00:34:08   I doubt it.

00:34:10   I doubt the remote control counts as a device.

00:34:12   The TV does.

00:34:13   The TV does, but the mouse connected to my iMac

00:34:16   or whatever does not count as a separate device.

00:34:19   It's a lot for a planet with only, I believe,

00:34:22   7 billion people.

00:34:24   Last I checked, but yeah, it's been a few years since I looked.

00:34:27   It's weird because it's like you internalize things.

00:34:29   I just remember when I first became

00:34:31   aware of the population of the Earth,

00:34:33   it was 5 billion.

00:34:34   Yep, me too.

00:34:35   Me too.

00:34:36   Exactly.

00:34:37   Similar age.

00:34:39   And I just thought, that's the number.

00:34:41   And then at some point, talking about 6 billion,

00:34:43   I'm like, no, 5 billion.

00:34:44   And then it's, oh, I see how it works.

00:34:46   Goes up pretty quick.

00:34:51   So I don't know.

00:34:52   It could be 13 billion at this point.

00:34:54   I just haven't paid attention.

00:34:56   I believe it's 7.

00:34:57   So with a planet of 7 billion people,

00:34:59   1.8 billion devices in use is pretty good reach

00:35:03   for a company that was formerly beleaguered.

00:35:07   Let me take a break here, and I will thank our next sponsor.

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00:36:23   Because they don't look like sweatpants from when I was

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00:36:33   Whereas back in the day, you put anything in sweatpants pockets,

00:36:36   it's going to fall out.

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00:36:42   The warm knit stuff is--

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00:36:53   And of course, they've got underwear and socks.

00:36:55   I've got one pair of Mack Weldon underwear.

00:36:58   I wear it every single day.

00:37:00   And nothing ever goes wrong with it.

00:37:02   No, I kid.

00:37:05   I've got a whole drawer full--

00:37:07   I'm not going to ask how often you do laundry.

00:37:09   I've got a whole drawer full of Mack Weldon underwear.

00:37:12   I do not just wear the same pair every day.

00:37:14   But you could if you wanted to.

00:37:16   The stuff really lasts.

00:37:17   Anyway, everything from your sock and undied drawer

00:37:20   to sweatshirts and this warm stuff.

00:37:22   Man, they have so much warm stuff.

00:37:24   It is great.

00:37:25   Layers, that's the secret to winter.

00:37:26   Go there.

00:37:27   Go to Mack Weldon.

00:37:28   And you can get--

00:37:29   save 20% off your first order by going to m-a-c-k-w-e-l-d-o-n,

00:37:36   mackweldon.com/the-talk-show.

00:37:40   And just remember, I think if you just go to the URL,

00:37:43   it's pre-entered.

00:37:43   But the promo code is thetalkshow.

00:37:46   And that's what gets you 20% off.

00:37:48   You can find your perfect look for this winter.

00:37:52   Don't forget the slippers.

00:37:53   I've got them on right now.

00:37:54   They're keeping my feet toasty warm.

00:37:56   My feet are actually not cold.

00:37:58   My feet get cold all the time.

00:37:59   Oh, yeah.

00:38:00   Not with warm Mack Weldon socks and these damn slippers.

00:38:03   Oh.

00:38:04   I don't think I have the socks.

00:38:05   I'm going to try the socks.

00:38:06   Oh, man.

00:38:07   Anyway, great stuff.

00:38:08   I love Mack Weldon.

00:38:09   What else have we got?

00:38:10   What's next on the agenda?

00:38:12   I wanted to talk about the OSs.

00:38:14   So it seems like it's funny because I feel like poor iOS 15.3

00:38:18   and Mac OS 12.2, which just came out like two days ago--

00:38:23   aw.

00:38:24   Not long for the world.

00:38:25   We never had a chance to talk about you guys

00:38:28   because there aren't a lot of new features in either of them.

00:38:31   They feel very bug fixy, sort of stability releases.

00:38:35   And the next versions of both, Mac OS 12.3 and iOS 15.4,

00:38:42   both have a bunch of features.

00:38:44   This sort of new Apple past the new year,

00:38:49   this is when we dropped some extra cool stuff.

00:38:52   Like two years ago is when the keyboard support and the mouse

00:38:56   pointer, the little circle thing for iPad OS,

00:38:58   dropped out of the blue unannounced.

00:39:00   I don't think any of these features

00:39:03   are surprises like that, but universal--

00:39:06   I mean, these were supposed to come in the fall,

00:39:08   or at least not the face mask thing, right?

00:39:10   I don't think that was announced.

00:39:12   Yeah, I guess--

00:39:12   The universal control was supposed to come in the fall.

00:39:15   Well, they don't tell you when it's supposed to come anymore.

00:39:18   I think that they're hoping--

00:39:20   everything they announce in June, they're sort of like,

00:39:22   we hope it all comes in September, October.

00:39:25   Yeah, I guess it's more like, these

00:39:26   are things coming in this number of the software,

00:39:31   and the number of the software will come in the fall.

00:39:34   The Swift playgrounds for making full-fledged apps

00:39:39   that you could submit to the app store right from Swift

00:39:42   playgrounds, that just shipped I think in December.

00:39:45   I think it was before Christmas.

00:39:47   But there's a guy who did that app,

00:39:49   To Don't, which is supposedly the first app in the app store

00:39:53   that was built that way.

00:39:55   And nobody disputes it, so it probably is.

00:39:57   But that's a similar type feature,

00:39:59   where they announced it at WWDC.

00:40:02   They don't say, like, coming in September.

00:40:04   They just say, it's coming.

00:40:05   And it came in December, not September.

00:40:07   Whatever, it took a while.

00:40:09   Universal Control was, if not the star of WWDC last year,

00:40:14   it was certainly a star.

00:40:16   Federighi was the demo-er, showing

00:40:19   how you could move your mouse from--

00:40:21   you set up your iPad right next to your MacBook

00:40:24   and use your trackpad on your Mac

00:40:26   to move the mouse cursor over the screen, over to the iPad.

00:40:30   And now you're dealing with iPad apps.

00:40:32   It's one of those WTF demos, right?

00:40:37   Your mind is slightly blown by what they're showing you.

00:40:40   Right.

00:40:41   So I have not tried it firsthand,

00:40:43   because A, there was no in-person WWDC,

00:40:46   where they would have had some kind of early version set up,

00:40:49   perhaps, for the media.

00:40:51   And B, I don't have spare machines

00:40:53   to install all these betas on.

00:40:55   Although, I would throw my iPad--

00:40:57   going back to what we said about the iPad not really being

00:41:00   essential to me--

00:41:01   I would put the beta or an alpha--

00:41:03   I'd put anything on the iPad.

00:41:05   That's usually where I put the first-- yeah, like the--

00:41:09   first betas.

00:41:10   But people who are braver than me

00:41:11   and have installed it across the board--

00:41:13   I think Joe Rossignol--

00:41:15   Rossignol?

00:41:16   I don't know.

00:41:17   I'll go Rossignol.

00:41:18   At MacRumors has a video out, and he seems very impressed.

00:41:22   It certainly sounds cool.

00:41:23   But it's not using your iPad as a secondary screen,

00:41:27   and you move Mac windows over there.

00:41:28   We've had that for a while.

00:41:30   This is actually like you just run your cursor over the side,

00:41:33   and now your Mac trackpad is controlling your iPad running

00:41:36   iPad apps.

00:41:37   Very cool.

00:41:38   It is--

00:41:38   I'm not sure if I have a use case for it particularly.

00:41:41   I use-- I do use the iPad as a--

00:41:46   like a-- like a Wacom tablet sort of thing.

00:41:49   I do that a fair amount for making--

00:41:51   like doing design stuff in Affinity Designer.

00:41:55   And that I love and get a lot of use out of.

00:41:59   But I'm not sure--

00:42:00   I haven't figured out what I would use this for exactly yet.

00:42:03   Yeah, I don't know either.

00:42:04   But on the other hand, Apple must

00:42:06   think it's going to be useful because it seems like it

00:42:09   would--

00:42:10   it's hard enough to do.

00:42:12   I mean, I guess if you're sitting at a desk

00:42:14   and you have multiple devices, I can see how--

00:42:16   you don't want to like set up an ergonomic nightmare where

00:42:19   you're suddenly having to reach out for your iPad

00:42:22   when you're using your Mac.

00:42:23   You just move your mouse over, and you can use the iPad.

00:42:26   So I can see--

00:42:27   I can see how it might be useful,

00:42:28   but I don't-- probably don't set up that way.

00:42:30   I don't think it's going to work very much.

00:42:31   Color me intrigued to play with it,

00:42:34   and color me skeptical that I have a need for it.

00:42:37   Because I also feel--

00:42:38   and I know that there's stuff like the--

00:42:40   under the umbrella name Continuity,

00:42:42   there's very cool features that have been around for years now

00:42:45   where if you copy something on your iPhone,

00:42:47   you can paste it on your iPad or your Mac.

00:42:50   And it works just well enough that I

00:42:53   assume it's going to work.

00:42:54   But at least once a week, it doesn't.

00:42:56   And it's-- you copy it on your iPad, and you go to your Mac,

00:42:59   thinking you're going to paste this URL you just copied,

00:43:02   and you get whatever crappy nonsense, whatever

00:43:05   the random thing that used to be on your Mac clipboard

00:43:07   is still there.

00:43:08   I don't know.

00:43:09   It doesn't work perfectly.

00:43:10   That's the thing that makes me a little bit leery of it as well.

00:43:13   One of the things that drives me absolutely crazy--

00:43:15   like, little bugs like that drive me crazy.

00:43:17   And one of the things that drives me berserk currently

00:43:19   is when you have the automatic switching on for AirPods,

00:43:23   and I'm watching something-- like,

00:43:25   because I have a desk with my Mac Mini that

00:43:28   has my Plex server on it, and sometimes I'll

00:43:30   be watching something and doing something on my MacBook Air,

00:43:35   and listening to something on the Mac Mini,

00:43:37   and a notification comes in--

00:43:40   like, an email comes in or a text comes in,

00:43:43   and it switches the audio input to the Air.

00:43:46   And that drives me absolutely bonkers.

00:43:48   I wish there was a setting where it's like,

00:43:50   don't do system alerts.

00:43:52   If I suddenly stop listening to--

00:43:54   stop watching what I'm watching on the Mini

00:43:55   and switch over to listening to music on my Air, sure, do that.

00:43:59   But an email comes in, I don't care.

00:44:03   Don't stop everything just because an email came in.

00:44:05   Ching.

00:44:06   Yeah.

00:44:08   Or a text.

00:44:09   They come in all the time.

00:44:10   I think the ATP guys have talked about this.

00:44:12   I forget which of them--

00:44:14   one of them continues to insist on trying to use it,

00:44:17   and I think Syracuse is the pessimist who says,

00:44:21   don't even do it.

00:44:22   I have it turned on.

00:44:23   I still do, but I get frustrated when it goes the wrong way.

00:44:27   And for me, it's often when I want

00:44:30   to make a phone call using my AirPods, which I love.

00:44:35   I just love hearing it in both ears.

00:44:37   I just feel like I actually hear the person so much better when

00:44:40   I use my AirPods for a phone call.

00:44:43   And I don't have-- famously, I don't have a lot of work phone

00:44:48   calls.

00:44:49   But man, oh man, whenever one does, it seems like that--

00:44:52   oh, somebody is going to call me to talk about something,

00:44:54   and OK, we'll do it at 2 o'clock on Tuesday, and it's scheduled,

00:44:58   and I want to be professional.

00:44:59   And then here it is, 1 59, and my AirPods

00:45:03   will not disconnect from my Mac.

00:45:05   There's nothing-- close the lid.

00:45:08   I don't know.

00:45:09   Put this to sleep.

00:45:10   Shut it down.

00:45:10   What do I do?

00:45:11   How do I fix this?

00:45:12   And it seems like when it's--

00:45:14   if there's no pressure involved, if it's just

00:45:17   me listening to a podcast on my own,

00:45:19   it just all works perfectly.

00:45:21   And when I know that somebody is going

00:45:22   to call me 15 seconds from now, I cannot make it switch

00:45:27   to my iPhone, and instead it's playing beeps and boops

00:45:30   from my Mac.

00:45:30   And then I think to myself, why did I ever even--

00:45:33   why don't I just keep them on my phone all the time?

00:45:35   I don't know.

00:45:36   So it's stuff like that that makes me leery of things

00:45:38   like this, because I think, it looks good,

00:45:42   but is it going to work?

00:45:43   Or is there going to be something that's just going

00:45:45   to drive me absolutely crazy about it?

00:45:47   And usually they iron that stuff out over time.

00:45:49   It's so close to being good, but the gold standard

00:45:53   is wired headphones, where it--

00:45:57   Which device--

00:45:58   Where you know exactly what's going to happen.

00:45:59   Like, it gets back to the keyboard thing from before,

00:46:02   too, right?

00:46:03   Where like 99.9% keyboard accuracy,

00:46:06   like where you press the E key, do you get an E,

00:46:10   isn't good enough.

00:46:11   99.9% isn't good enough.

00:46:13   You really, literally, should be able to use a computer

00:46:17   nonstop every day for six years, and every single time you

00:46:20   press E, you get one E. That's what wired headphones are like.

00:46:24   You plug it in, and it's like you know which device

00:46:26   it's going to.

00:46:27   Yeah.

00:46:28   Says me, a guy--

00:46:29   I'm a big fan of the wireless headphones.

00:46:31   I love them.

00:46:31   Yeah, me too.

00:46:32   I mean, I--

00:46:33   and I'm so glad to be rid of wires, honestly.

00:46:36   I mean, when podcasting, I'm connected with wires,

00:46:39   and these headphones are not super old,

00:46:42   but they're already janky at the connector part at the port,

00:46:46   because I have to-- and I have to--

00:46:47   every time I sit down to podcast,

00:46:49   I have to fiddle with it to make sure

00:46:50   that I'm getting the full audio.

00:46:51   So I don't like wires, and I particularly

00:46:54   don't like audio wires.

00:46:55   And there's so many other things to love about AirPods,

00:46:57   but it's just that one that automatic switching thing

00:47:00   is not perfect yet.

00:47:02   Again, it's just frustrating, because nothing

00:47:04   short of 100% accuracy is going to be satisfying,

00:47:06   and 100% accuracy sort of requires the AirPods

00:47:10   to read your mind.

00:47:11   [LAUGHTER]

00:47:13   So I get it.

00:47:14   I just need one more setting, which is ignore system alerts.

00:47:18   We were talking about how cold it is.

00:47:19   It is very cold.

00:47:20   It's winter here, and you've got to go out with a winter coat.

00:47:23   And so many people now seem to have AirPods

00:47:26   or other wireless headphones.

00:47:27   But now, when I do see somebody, like at the grocery store

00:47:30   with a winter coat and the actual cable snaking

00:47:34   under their coat or out of their pocket,

00:47:36   it's, buddy, you really--

00:47:38   just $100.

00:47:39   You know?

00:47:40   How about there's new emoji or emojis?

00:47:43   People used to make fun of me, because I would pluralize emoji

00:47:47   to emojis, and people would make fun of me

00:47:49   and say that it was one of the many things I--

00:47:52   because it's Japanese.

00:47:54   It's Japanese.

00:47:54   There's no plural in Japanese, yeah.

00:47:56   Yeah, but the Emojipedia guys, who I would think

00:47:59   know what they're talking about, it seems as though both

00:48:02   are accepted.

00:48:02   I think it's fine.

00:48:03   Yeah.

00:48:04   Yeah.

00:48:04   [LAUGHTER]

00:48:05   Whatever you want to do.

00:48:06   Anyway, there's new-- whether they are emoji or emojis,

00:48:10   there's more of them in the new OSes coming out.

00:48:15   And I'm still-- I love this back story, that it's like the--

00:48:19   there's a long tail of people who don't like installing

00:48:22   OS updates, but the thing that will make people install

00:48:25   a new update--

00:48:26   Is getting new emoji.

00:48:28   Yeah, and that you can tell which version Apple thinks.

00:48:32   This is the one that everybody should update to.

00:48:34   If you have a phone that's compatible

00:48:36   with this version of iOS, this is the one

00:48:38   you definitely should do, and that's

00:48:39   when they put the new emojis in.

00:48:41   Yeah.

00:48:42   Yeah.

00:48:43   Nobody wants to be left behind.

00:48:45   I don't use that many emoji, so it's not at the top of my list.

00:48:51   Although it ties into something that we

00:48:53   were going to talk about--

00:48:53   I don't know if we want to segue into that or not--

00:48:55   but I have tried to use more emoji instead of the reactions

00:49:00   because we have at least one friend who is on Android.

00:49:06   Ah, the green bubble story.

00:49:08   We should talk about it.

00:49:08   The green bubble thing.

00:49:09   Why not talk about it?

00:49:10   Actually, there's more.

00:49:11   Yeah, because we are in a carpool with people

00:49:14   because we drive Hank to school, which is like a half an hour

00:49:16   away, and so we're in a carpool with a bunch of people.

00:49:19   And so that group, obviously, there

00:49:21   is a couple of people who have Android devices as well.

00:49:25   And Karen will always react to things

00:49:27   that people say on that with the Apple reactions, which

00:49:29   drives me crazy because she doesn't see it.

00:49:31   She doesn't see Karen liked whatever.

00:49:34   Right.

00:49:35   What do they say?

00:49:36   Like, I guess, is the thumbs up reaction or tap back

00:49:41   you're talking about?

00:49:42   Yeah, I think that's the thumbs up thing, yeah.

00:49:43   And then loved is the heart.

00:49:45   But what do they say if you give it a ha ha?

00:49:48   Laughed at, I think.

00:49:49   Laughed at.

00:49:50   Yeah.

00:49:51   Yeah.

00:49:51   And then what's the exclamation marks?

00:49:55   That I don't know.

00:49:56   People don't use that much.

00:49:57   I think I use that more than other people do, but--

00:49:59   Yeah, I do too.

00:50:00   I don't use the question marks.

00:50:02   I've said-- I said the one I would like to pay for,

00:50:04   I would like a middle finger.

00:50:08   Which, of course, raises the point--

00:50:09   Not an eggplant?

00:50:10   Or, you know, eh, that's not bad.

00:50:12   But why are they separate?

00:50:14   Why can't you just tap back with any emoji?

00:50:17   That'd be the way it works, you know?

00:50:19   And that's sort of like how Slack reactions work.

00:50:21   And I know that Slack has sort of a superset of emoji

00:50:25   where you can react on Slack with any emoji.

00:50:29   And Slack has some custom ones.

00:50:32   And for each Slack group that you're in,

00:50:36   you can add custom images.

00:50:38   I think the one that-- one of the ones

00:50:40   that you and I are on together, there's like a-- we

00:50:43   have a playdate.

00:50:44   Somebody stuck in there, so you can like type colon playdate

00:50:47   and get a little yellow panic playdate controller.

00:50:50   But even if you just stuck to emoji,

00:50:52   why are the reactions different than just-- you could just

00:50:56   send any emoji you want as a reaction,

00:50:58   and it shows up as a little bubble in the corner?

00:51:01   I guess it's just how Apple's implemented it,

00:51:04   but they implemented their own.

00:51:07   Does it seem unhappily to implement their own?

00:51:09   Remember when Safari didn't support favicons in tabs?

00:51:14   And they had the pin tabs, but pin tabs

00:51:18   didn't use your favicon either.

00:51:20   Apple specified that if you wanted

00:51:22   to have an icon in your pin tab for Safari,

00:51:25   you had to create a SVG file that was monochrome.

00:51:30   And so you would just have a monochromatic icon

00:51:34   that would be your pin tab thing, and no color favicons.

00:51:39   And then I made a stink about it on Daring Fireball,

00:51:41   and whether that helped change the thinking or not,

00:51:43   after I made--

00:51:44   wrote way too many words about it, a new version of Safari

00:51:49   came out with an option for favicons in tabs.

00:51:51   But apparently what I heard while I

00:51:53   was making a stink about it is that there

00:51:55   is some contingent within Apple--

00:51:57   I don't know if it was in the Safari group or the Human

00:51:59   Interface team--

00:52:00   but some contingent of designers who

00:52:04   didn't like the idea of color icons

00:52:05   that they didn't control, junking up the Safari

00:52:09   interface.

00:52:10   And that's why the pin tabs were, OK,

00:52:13   we have to give you an icon because the pin tabs are just

00:52:15   little, but we're going to make you do them in black and white

00:52:18   because we don't want your garish CNN red in a tab.

00:52:24   And I just wonder if that's the thinking with tapbacks.

00:52:27   It's like we have these beautiful monochromatic just

00:52:30   blue and white thumbs and exclamation marks,

00:52:34   and we don't want your garish any color goes emoji?

00:52:38   I don't know.

00:52:39   That seems crazy because you could still send emoji,

00:52:42   so it's almost the same thing.

00:52:44   I don't know.

00:52:44   It just seems weird.

00:52:47   It just seems like the easiest way

00:52:48   to upgrade the tapback feature would just be,

00:52:51   oh, you could just pick whatever emojis you want

00:52:53   and set five of them as your favorites

00:52:55   and have a dot, dot, dot that would let you pick any emoji

00:52:59   as the last spot.

00:53:00   Anyway.

00:53:01   Yeah.

00:53:02   Aren't they moving to the more universal standard thing?

00:53:06   For what?

00:53:06   I forget what it's called.

00:53:08   There is a-- isn't there something that you can--

00:53:11   that Android phones can use as well?

00:53:13   No, I don't think so.

00:53:14   Oh, really?

00:53:15   I thought there was some thing that they were like,

00:53:17   we're going to try them.

00:53:19   No, what happened is that I think the Google Messages

00:53:22   app on Android will interpret those text messages

00:53:26   like for a mixed iPhone and Android group chat, where

00:53:30   it'll say like, John liked--

00:53:32   Oh, right.

00:53:33   --quote the message.

00:53:34   They interpret-- because that just comes across as its own SMS

00:53:38   message.

00:53:38   It's just a string of text that says John liked space quote,

00:53:43   and then it's a quote of the message the previous--

00:53:47   it's like turning SMS into email where there's

00:53:50   like underneath your message, there's

00:53:52   every single quoted version of the previous emails

00:53:57   in the chain, even though every modern email client could just

00:54:00   show them all together.

00:54:02   Now all of a sudden with the tap backs,

00:54:04   we're quoting messages.

00:54:06   Anyway, Google's Android Messages client

00:54:10   will take those and turn them into fake tap backs,

00:54:14   supposedly.

00:54:15   I don't have much more to say about the green bubble, blue

00:54:17   bubble thing I wrote about it.

00:54:19   I just think-- I do think it's just so damn curious

00:54:23   that no single messaging platform around the world

00:54:27   has come to dominate.

00:54:29   Like with social networks, a handful have.

00:54:33   Twitter are to some degree, but then of course Facebook

00:54:36   and Instagram.

00:54:38   And China is weird because they have the great firewall.

00:54:41   So of course they have their own--

00:54:43   the fact that China has their own social networks

00:54:45   is not surprising.

00:54:46   But otherwise Facebook sort of dominates worldwide.

00:54:50   Yet for messaging platforms, there's

00:54:53   all these little country by country fiefdoms.

00:54:56   That to me is the strangest part.

00:54:58   Yeah, and that's kind of why I think that sort of bullying

00:55:00   thing didn't really ring true to me because my kid,

00:55:04   he uses messages sometimes.

00:55:06   But I'm pretty sure they--

00:55:07   I don't even know what it is, but Snapchat or whatever

00:55:10   he's using to communicate with his friends

00:55:12   because he won't tell me and I don't ask.

00:55:14   But he's communicating with his friends using other stuff

00:55:17   for sure.

00:55:18   Discord is big with Jonas and his pals.

00:55:21   You know, I've used Discord a little.

00:55:23   I've used it enough that I get it.

00:55:25   It's more like Slack, though, where you get on a group.

00:55:28   There's like a channel in Discord.

00:55:30   And there could be dozens and dozens of people,

00:55:32   way more people than you would want in a group chat in anything

00:55:37   like a WhatsApp or iMessage.

00:55:38   You wouldn't really want to have three dozen people in an iMessage

00:55:42   group.

00:55:42   Discord is more like it's meant for groups in the public

00:55:45   hangout place online.

00:55:47   Yeah, I don't know.

00:55:48   Maybe it wasn't even worth venting about on Daring

00:55:52   Fireball, but I don't know.

00:55:53   It just made-- the bullying angle made me angry.

00:55:55   Yeah, well, and it's also in the Wall Street Journal.

00:55:58   It's not--

00:55:58   Wasn't in the National Enquirer or something.

00:56:00   Yeah, a little bit of Paul Theron was going off on it.

00:56:05   I did think it was weird that Google latched onto it.

00:56:07   And I don't think the Wall Street Journal used the word

00:56:10   "bullying" at all.

00:56:11   Google took their anecdotes of teenagers

00:56:14   being given a hard time over having green bubbles in a group

00:56:18   chat and turned it into--

00:56:20   introduced the word "bullying."

00:56:22   But then once that happened, it went everywhere.

00:56:25   And then there was like a story--

00:56:26   USA Today has a story about teenagers

00:56:28   being bullied over green bubbles.

00:56:30   And it's like, no, no, that wasn't even in the Wall Street

00:56:34   Journal story.

00:56:35   Yeah, OK.

00:56:37   Yeah, I didn't--

00:56:38   yeah, I don't subscribe, so.

00:56:40   Have you-- would you use any other chats?

00:56:43   I use Signal, which I have opened.

00:56:45   I do have Signal, yeah.

00:56:47   And I've used a little bit, but not much.

00:56:50   Yeah, I have it open so that anybody

00:56:53   who wants to send me a secure message can do it.

00:56:55   It's worked out pretty well.

00:56:56   I don't get very many messages from random readers

00:56:59   or listeners through Signal.

00:57:01   But I do occasionally, and it's there, and it's good enough.

00:57:04   I'm on one group chat with a couple of friends on Signal.

00:57:08   I don't really see much of a difference than if we

00:57:10   were doing it on iMessage.

00:57:11   And I'm not even quite sure why we're on Signal,

00:57:13   since we all have iPhones.

00:57:15   But no.

00:57:15   I know why we're on--

00:57:19   I know why my group is on Signal.

00:57:20   But it's not-- like I said, I don't use it much.

00:57:23   I've got the WhatsApp too.

00:57:25   And I'm on one group in WhatsApp now.

00:57:27   And I do see Ben Thompson, my dithering pal,

00:57:31   has been on me for a while about the fact

00:57:32   that WhatsApp has better group messaging

00:57:35   features, like quoted replies.

00:57:38   And it is.

00:57:38   It actually is a nicer way.

00:57:40   If you're asynchronous, which when Ben and I chat

00:57:44   is often the case, because we're literally either 12 or 13

00:57:47   hours apart all year long.

00:57:49   And if you wake up and a bunch of the chat

00:57:52   had taken place while you were sleeping

00:57:53   and you want to reply to something nine messages ago,

00:57:56   you can tap on it and hit Reply.

00:57:59   The way that WhatsApp does that is much more--

00:58:04   it's a much better presentation than the recently added

00:58:07   iMessage feature that does it.

00:58:09   Would it make me try to convince a group

00:58:12   that I'm on on iMessage, hey, everybody,

00:58:14   sign up for this new WhatsApp thing that's owned by Facebook.

00:58:18   Let's move it over there?

00:58:19   No.

00:58:20   But that really is--

00:58:22   that is like the sort of mass behavior, right?

00:58:25   Nobody really wants to sign up for an entirely new app,

00:58:28   even if you put the Facebook's ownership aside.

00:58:30   If you just-- like Signal.

00:58:32   Let's say Signal is generally widely regarded

00:58:35   as excellent cryptography, and it's not even a company.

00:58:38   I think it's a foundation.

00:58:39   But they're in it for the right reasons.

00:58:41   They really just want to provide good, secure messaging

00:58:44   to everybody.

00:58:45   You could encourage people to try Signal

00:58:47   without seeming like you're telling them to sign up

00:58:50   for a bad company like Facebook.

00:58:52   It's still-- it's like nobody wants to download a new app,

00:58:55   create an account, remember to have this,

00:58:57   get notifications from a different app,

00:58:59   just to have one more group chat there.

00:59:00   If everybody's already getting by with what they have,

00:59:03   they're just going to keep doing it.

00:59:05   Yeah.

00:59:06   It's crazy how quickly Zoom took off after the pandemic, though,

00:59:09   because that was an instance of a sort of a void of good video

00:59:18   chat--

00:59:18   That worked on all devices.

00:59:20   --that worked on all platforms and was able to handle people--

00:59:24   like millions and millions of people suddenly using it.

00:59:28   Yeah, kudos to them.

00:59:29   Right place, right time.

00:59:30   Can't predict it.

00:59:31   I don't even know.

00:59:32   Yes, I did write about Zoom before the pandemic,

00:59:35   because there was some mini brouhaha about their Mac

00:59:38   software doing shady stuff behind the scene--

00:59:41   or the installer doing some shady stuff behind the scenes.

00:59:44   But it's like I hardly even remembered

00:59:46   the name of the company.

00:59:47   And then all of a sudden, it became a verb.

00:59:50   It's like one of the best known, most used utilities

00:59:55   around the entire globe, all thanks to a simple pandemic.

00:59:59   [LAUGHTER]

01:00:02   All they had to do was re-sequence some bad genes.

01:00:07   Here, let me take one last break here

01:00:09   and thank our third and final sponsors, our good friends

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01:01:38   And once again, that's memberful.com/talkshow.

01:01:43   Bunch of good sites I subscribe to.

01:01:45   You've got one, right?

01:01:46   Yeah, the rebound is--

01:01:48   The rebound?

01:01:49   Rebound Prime.

01:01:51   Rebound Prime.

01:01:52   Oh, that's a good name.

01:01:53   I like that.

01:01:54   Rebound Prime.

01:01:55   People can sign up for the rebound.

01:01:56   That's-- who's on-- we don't have to save it

01:01:58   for the end of the show.

01:01:59   Who's on the rebound with you?

01:02:01   Lex Friedman and Dan Moore.

01:02:04   Dan Moore, our pal Dan Moore.

01:02:06   Dan, I know.

01:02:07   Late of Macworld.

01:02:08   Lex Friedman.

01:02:09   And Lex also late of Macworld.

01:02:10   That's true.

01:02:11   Not familiar with that guy.

01:02:12   Dan, though, I know.

01:02:13   He's a science fiction author.

01:02:16   That's right.

01:02:16   By Dan's book.

01:02:18   Yeah.

01:02:18   Well, he's got a new book coming out.

01:02:20   Yeah, that's right.

01:02:20   The Nova Incident, I believe.

01:02:22   Yeah.

01:02:22   It's already coming out.

01:02:24   Pre-orders, they're taking them.

01:02:25   What else?

01:02:25   What do we got here?

01:02:26   Face ID with a mask is coming out in iOS 15.4.

01:02:30   Now, that's different from what they already have.

01:02:32   They've already got a thing that they introduced--

01:02:34   With the watch.

01:02:34   With a watch.

01:02:35   But now they're just straight up saying,

01:02:37   Face ID will be able to pick you out by your--

01:02:41   Which is interesting to me that they're not saving this as--

01:02:44   they got to buy the watch.

01:02:45   It seems like they could have done that.

01:02:46   If you want this magical feature where

01:02:48   you can unlock your phone with a mask on, just get the watch.

01:02:52   It's only 200 and whatever it is for the SE.

01:02:55   But they're rolling out to everybody, which is cool.

01:02:58   And the only thing I wonder is if a couple of weeks from now,

01:03:01   a bunch of people are going to say, well, I was able to do it.

01:03:03   My brother did it without--

01:03:05   Right.

01:03:06   That kind of thing.

01:03:07   Yeah, when Apple does something that could--

01:03:09   I mean, sometimes they do stuff where you're like--

01:03:12   they just want you to buy another thing.

01:03:13   That's why they're doing this.

01:03:15   And other times, you could look at it that way,

01:03:17   and people might jump to that conclusion.

01:03:19   But when they do something like this, where they've already got

01:03:22   a very interesting feature that requires at least a $200 Apple

01:03:26   Watch to make it work, and now they're making it work,

01:03:29   they're saying, look, this is less secure

01:03:31   because it's only like half your face.

01:03:33   And so I think you have to set it up

01:03:35   while you're wearing a mask.

01:03:36   And you make the decision, I would like Face ID only

01:03:39   to work when it sees my whole face, which is more secure.

01:03:42   Or less secure, I'll have it work,

01:03:44   and it'll identify me by my eyes while I'm wearing a mask.

01:03:47   And I accept the lower level of security,

01:03:49   and I'll do it that way.

01:03:50   It's a great feature.

01:03:52   I've mentioned this on the show before.

01:03:54   I've heard, ever since the iPhone X came out,

01:03:56   at least a handful of readers who regularly correspond to me

01:03:59   who work as medical professionals, who

01:04:01   have mentioned that Face ID sucks

01:04:04   when you're wearing a mask.

01:04:05   And this is pre-pandemic.

01:04:07   This is people in hospitals and other doctor-type situations,

01:04:11   dentists or something like that, where you might be wearing

01:04:13   a regular--

01:04:15   I don't know if you know this, but people used to wear--

01:04:18   these medical masks before the pandemic--

01:04:20   general purpose-- well, no, not general purpose,

01:04:22   but specific purpose masks.

01:04:24   And that not having Touch ID and having Face ID,

01:04:26   which did not work with these masks, sucked.

01:04:28   Yeah, I can imagine that.

01:04:30   And now it's like, we're all like, yeah,

01:04:31   it really does suck.

01:04:32   This is terrible.

01:04:34   Even if, in some optimistic scenario, which I'm no longer--

01:04:38   I just assume this pandemic is going

01:04:40   to go on for the rest of our lives at this point.

01:04:42   And if it doesn't, then I'll just be happily surprised.

01:04:45   But I'm sick of convincing myself that--

01:04:47   We're just around the corner.

01:04:49   I'm sick of it.

01:04:51   But let's just say, in the theoretical, hypothetical

01:04:55   universe, where things actually get better and stay better,

01:04:58   and masking for COVID-19 no longer becomes

01:05:02   a daily part of our life all around the world,

01:05:06   it still is a good feature to have for, say,

01:05:09   medical professionals, say, for a new variant that

01:05:13   might arise next year, the year after, whatever,

01:05:17   just regular cold and flu season, which I think is going to be--

01:05:22   I think one thing of COVID is going

01:05:23   to be transformative around the world is

01:05:25   that, even in regular cold and flu season for decades

01:05:29   to come, people, I think, are going to feel comfortable

01:05:32   wearing a face mask when they go out,

01:05:34   either because they feel like, hey, I've got a sniffle.

01:05:36   I should do the right thing when I go to the store

01:05:37   and put a mask on.

01:05:39   Or if you just want to wear one just

01:05:42   to avoid picking up whatever random crud people

01:05:45   are sneezing into the air.

01:05:47   Basically, the way Asian countries

01:05:49   have been doing it for years.

01:05:50   Yeah, exactly.

01:05:51   Where it's just completely normal, if not typical,

01:05:54   in a bunch of Asian countries, you get on the subway

01:05:57   in cold and flu season, everybody just puts on a mask

01:06:00   to keep from catching whatever's in the air.

01:06:03   It's great that Face ID has it.

01:06:04   So 15.4 is adding this as a feature.

01:06:07   I look forward to it.

01:06:08   I'll set it up.

01:06:10   I love the watch feature.

01:06:12   Yeah, I would just stick--

01:06:13   I mean, I wear the watch anyway, so I'm perfectly fine with that.

01:06:17   And it works almost all the time.

01:06:19   Yeah.

01:06:19   Every once in a while, for some reason,

01:06:21   it stopped, it'll just refuse to open.

01:06:22   I got to type in my password.

01:06:24   But for the most part, it works pretty well.

01:06:26   Again, it's common sense.

01:06:28   But you can tell which features people at Apple use the most.

01:06:31   And there's long running gags, things

01:06:34   that don't really apply to non-Silicon Valley weather.

01:06:38   I mean, the best way to exaggerate it

01:06:40   is the idea that maybe they're going

01:06:41   to come out with this Apple car in a couple of years.

01:06:44   And it doesn't work in the rain or ice.

01:06:47   Yeah.

01:06:49   It works perfectly if it's 72 degrees and sunny.

01:06:52   But everybody's wearing masks these days.

01:06:55   And so I feel like ever since this feature came out,

01:06:58   and it was very good for me even when it was in beta,

01:07:01   it's gotten better.

01:07:02   For a while, it would get confused and say,

01:07:04   hey, is your Apple watch nearby?

01:07:06   And meanwhile, I'm actually holding my phone in the hand

01:07:09   that--

01:07:10   where the watch is on my wrist.

01:07:12   It's like, it's really close.

01:07:13   I didn't get a lot closer.

01:07:15   I've had fewer and fewer problems with that.

01:07:17   But it's made Face ID seem less poorly timed.

01:07:23   It just seems-- we went all these years without a pandemic.

01:07:26   And then lo and behold, a year and a half or so

01:07:28   after the first Face ID phone ever get stuck with this.

01:07:32   Yeah, I got my first Face ID phone during the pandemic.

01:07:35   Oh.

01:07:36   [LAUGHS]

01:07:36   It was perfect.

01:07:37   Perfect timing.

01:07:38   Because I had SEs.

01:07:38   I had SEs for years.

01:07:40   Yeah, perfect timing.

01:07:41   Yeah, I was like, well, that was dumb.

01:07:42   Let me see here.

01:07:43   What else?

01:07:43   What is the other features?

01:07:45   There's like an Apple Card widget.

01:07:46   Who cares?

01:07:47   I don't know.

01:07:48   There's not that many features.

01:07:49   It's midway through the cycle, it seems about it.

01:07:51   Last thing I had on my list, I was--

01:07:53   you want to talk about Neil Young and Spotify?

01:07:55   Yeah, sure.

01:07:55   Ben Thompson and I, you probably didn't listen to it.

01:07:58   I think it just came out this morning.

01:07:59   But we disagree about this.

01:08:00   Ben on dithering last night--

01:08:02   I say last night, but it came out this morning--

01:08:04   but seems to have a free speech sort of argument that, hey,

01:08:07   we shouldn't be trying-- maybe you disagree with what Joe

01:08:10   Rogan says, but you shouldn't try to get him kicked off,

01:08:12   have his podcast shut down.

01:08:14   We need more speech.

01:08:15   The answer to speech is always more speech, blah, blah, blah.

01:08:17   I was a little taken-- and I think

01:08:19   because of what I wrote about it,

01:08:20   he seemed to think that I was thinking

01:08:22   that Spotify should kick Joe Rogan off Spotify, which

01:08:26   was not my take at all.

01:08:27   Spotify made their bed with him.

01:08:28   They signed a $100 million deal.

01:08:30   Clearly, when Neil Young issued this ultimatum,

01:08:35   he's a very smart guy.

01:08:36   He did not think Spotify was going to kick Joe Rogan off.

01:08:39   He said, look, you can have Joe Rogan or Neil Young,

01:08:42   but you can't have both.

01:08:44   He did issue an ultimatum, but he

01:08:45   knew what they were going to do.

01:08:46   Right.

01:08:47   I don't think-- yeah.

01:08:48   I don't think anybody thought anything other than what

01:08:51   happened was going to happen.

01:08:52   But I think-- see, to me, that is free speech too, right?

01:08:58   Yeah, absolutely.

01:08:59   Right?

01:08:59   Yeah.

01:09:00   And he got a lot of publicity for it and deserved to be--

01:09:04   If you go into a bar and you sit down and you're sitting there

01:09:07   having a drink and you look around,

01:09:09   you're like, man, there are a lot of Nazis in here.

01:09:10   You don't have to keep going back to that bar.

01:09:14   You talk to the bar general, you're like,

01:09:15   can you kick these Nazis out?

01:09:17   And the guy's like, well, hey, so I'm not

01:09:19   going to kick them out.

01:09:20   I'm not going back to a Nazi bar.

01:09:22   I'm not saying Joe Rogan is a Nazi.

01:09:24   I'm just saying he's an idiot.

01:09:25   But it's a good point where you could say, hey,

01:09:28   what's with all these guys with the swastika

01:09:30   tattoos on their knuckles?

01:09:31   And if the answer is, eh, it's a free country,

01:09:34   part of it being a free country is you can go to a different

01:09:36   bar.

01:09:37   Exactly.

01:09:39   Yeah, I mean, and he said 60% of his--

01:09:43   Streaming.

01:09:44   60% of the money that he gets from his songs

01:09:46   comes from Spotify, I think.

01:09:47   Or 60% of the plays or something.

01:09:50   60% of the streaming revenue.

01:09:53   Yeah, right.

01:09:54   And for an artist like Neil Young, who's slightly older--

01:09:59   Yeah.

01:09:59   And whose audience is older.

01:10:00   That's probably not the bulk of his income.

01:10:01   There's probably still a lot of his audience still buys music.

01:10:04   But on the other hand, too, when you're in your 70s--

01:10:08   He gets it mostly from car commercials.

01:10:10   You can also assume that most of your fans

01:10:13   already own most of your music, especially the older stuff,

01:10:17   which is what people like.

01:10:18   You may not make a lot of money as a classic artist,

01:10:22   for lack of a better term, from your music sales.

01:10:26   But he's putting his money where his mouth is, right?

01:10:29   And it was, if it's--

01:10:31   60% of it was Spotify.

01:10:32   And I guess the rest comes from Amazon and Apple.

01:10:36   But the publicity that came out over it,

01:10:38   and the fact that it's inspired some number of people to say,

01:10:43   hey, yeah, this isn't right.

01:10:45   I don't know why Spotify is associating themselves

01:10:48   with Joe Rogan.

01:10:49   I'm going to cancel my Spotify, or I want Spotify

01:10:53   to cancel Joe Rogan's podcast.

01:10:56   That's the argument you get to have.

01:10:57   It was Spotify's decision to sign Joe Rogan.

01:11:00   And like I said to Ben, I don't think any of this

01:11:04   has been a surprise.

01:11:06   I don't think that his hot takes on vaccines and ivermectin

01:11:12   and whatever else-- and I don't think Joe Rogan's podcast does

01:11:15   not interest me, but it doesn't offend me.

01:11:18   I don't think it's anywhere close to the lunatic fringe

01:11:21   of stuff that's out there.

01:11:24   And if people want to talk about taking these alternate things,

01:11:28   have at it.

01:11:29   If you take what Joe Rogan says seriously, I don't know.

01:11:32   I don't think that him stopping his podcast or somebody

01:11:35   booting his podcast off Spotify is really

01:11:37   going to help you much.

01:11:40   You know what I mean?

01:11:41   I don't think your next source of information--

01:11:43   like if Joe Rogan comes out with an episode today and says,

01:11:46   you know what?

01:11:47   I listened to Neil Young's argument.

01:11:49   I respect him so much.

01:11:50   I'm just going to take a break.

01:11:51   I'm going to take a break.

01:11:52   I'm not doing an episode for six months.

01:11:54   I'm going to take a break and think about what

01:11:56   I've done with my life.

01:11:57   And that's it.

01:11:57   He's going to take a six month hiatus.

01:12:00   I don't think the people who were getting

01:12:02   their medical information from the Joe Rogan experience,

01:12:05   their next choice is not going to be that much better.

01:12:10   They're not going to like the New England Journal of Medicine.

01:12:13   Yeah.

01:12:14   And I guess I called him an idiot.

01:12:15   And maybe that's the wrong term to use.

01:12:17   It's more like an asshole because he could just

01:12:21   be making a financial decision.

01:12:23   He could just be deciding smartly to say, yeah,

01:12:28   I'm providing misinformation, but I'm also

01:12:30   making a lot of money doing it.

01:12:32   And Spotify signed him.

01:12:34   It's not-- it is different.

01:12:35   Neil Young is telling his fans, you want to stream my music?

01:12:38   Go to Apple Music or go to Amazon

01:12:41   or there's a list of other services.

01:12:43   But those are for at least people in North America.

01:12:46   Those are the big ones.

01:12:47   And why isn't Neil Young complaining

01:12:50   that Apple Podcasts, if you search for Joe Rogan,

01:12:54   would turn up--

01:12:55   I guess his new show, which is Spotify exclusive,

01:12:58   but it would have turned it up while Joe Rogan's podcast was

01:13:02   a regular podcast, would turn up Joe Rogan similar podcasts?

01:13:08   And why isn't he objecting to that?

01:13:10   That's because it's like Apple Podcasts is like a web browser

01:13:15   where it just pretty much--

01:13:16   and yes, iTunes runs their own index

01:13:20   of known podcasts for search.

01:13:22   And controversially, I guess to some degree,

01:13:26   does take some out that have outright hate content.

01:13:30   What's the Alex Jones thing called? Info Wars

01:13:32   was delisted from iTunes for being beyond the pale, which

01:13:37   some people object to.

01:13:38   People who say, yeah, Alex Jones is a horrible person

01:13:42   and an idiot and his show is terrible,

01:13:45   but it shouldn't be delisted from a podcast index.

01:13:48   There's some people whose free speech fundamentalism

01:13:51   is that deep, but there's got to be a line somewhere, right?

01:13:54   I mean, Apple's not going to put their--

01:13:57   it's not a stamp of approval to be listed in Apple Podcasts.

01:14:01   They're not paying you, which is the big difference.

01:14:04   They list both of our podcasts.

01:14:06   The flip side of this is people who

01:14:07   don't want Spotify to cave and think

01:14:10   that Neil Young is doing Joe Rogan dirty by trying

01:14:15   to pressure them to cancel his show are missing the fact

01:14:20   that's what Spotify signed up for by signing Joe Rogan.

01:14:23   Yeah, you decided what your platform was going to be.

01:14:26   You know, and I could imagine somebody else

01:14:29   might look at any network.

01:14:31   And I'm not of the sensitive, I don't like listening.

01:14:36   I can't stand to listen to somebody who I disagree with.

01:14:39   I try to read some level of rational conservative thought

01:14:45   and politics and watch shows like the Bill Maher show

01:14:49   where he has guests who I often think, wow,

01:14:52   that person's an idiot.

01:14:53   Or Bill Maher often says things and I think, wow, Bill Maher

01:14:56   is being a bit of an idiot here.

01:14:58   But that doesn't make me like I can't

01:15:00   stand hearing somebody say something I disagree with.

01:15:03   I'll at least listen to it.

01:15:04   And it may not change my mind, but it's not

01:15:07   like sunshine to a vampire to me to be exposed to somebody

01:15:11   who I disagree with.

01:15:13   But I can also see how somebody who's controversial enough

01:15:17   on a certain network or a provider like Spotify

01:15:21   might make me say, well, that person is so beyond the pale

01:15:25   that I don't want to be associated with this group.

01:15:28   Yeah.

01:15:29   This is-- we're talking about stuff that is just simply

01:15:31   objectively incorrect as well.

01:15:35   That's become such a problem, such a ridiculous problem

01:15:40   that we--

01:15:40   Right.

01:15:41   --that it's not a matter of opinion anymore.

01:15:44   I mean, you can--

01:15:45   Some of this stuff.

01:15:45   Right.

01:15:45   You can have an opinion.

01:15:46   You can definitely have opinion about the effectiveness

01:15:48   of masks or something like that.

01:15:50   Right.

01:15:51   But like whether or not a vaccine works

01:15:53   or whether vaccines are killing people.

01:15:56   Right.

01:15:57   The John Stockton take, NBA great John Stockton,

01:16:01   who believes 150 professional athletes around the world--

01:16:04   Have dropped dead.

01:16:04   --not just have died of the vaccine,

01:16:06   have dropped dead on the field or court,

01:16:08   and it's all being covered up.

01:16:10   Mm-hmm.

01:16:11   Yeah.

01:16:12   It's-- well, I don't know.

01:16:15   You know, and the other thing too about Neil Young

01:16:18   that I was thinking about, I think last night,

01:16:20   but I was thinking about it, is there

01:16:22   is something to be said for an artist who has spent literally

01:16:26   his entire career, whether you like his music

01:16:29   or dislike his music or feel ambivalent or just like it

01:16:34   when he's with the Crosby, Stills, and Nash or something,

01:16:37   everybody I know has the utmost respect for his integrity.

01:16:41   Right?

01:16:42   Or you could certainly disagree with his stance

01:16:45   on no compression music and that goofy Panos player

01:16:49   he was trying to sell.

01:16:51   But he wasn't trying to make a quick buck.

01:16:53   He was coming at it from a perspective

01:16:55   of genuine integrity.

01:16:57   That's the thing.

01:16:58   Yeah, and in this instance, he's not

01:16:59   going to make money off of this.

01:17:02   Right.

01:17:03   There's no-- I don't think--

01:17:04   you could say, well, he's just pandering to certain people.

01:17:07   And I think the fact that he's giving up

01:17:09   60% of his streaming revenue is kind of a sign

01:17:13   that that's not going to work out very well for him,

01:17:15   if that's his plan, which I don't think it is.

01:17:17   And it's not like he's selling Neil Young's COVID protection

01:17:21   vitamins.

01:17:21   It's not like there's some kind of scam back there.

01:17:23   Right, there's some sort of alternative.

01:17:25   Yeah, don't use ivermectin.

01:17:26   That stuff doesn't work.

01:17:27   But what does work is Neil Young's protective vitamins.

01:17:31   Right, and eye drops or something.

01:17:34   What does work is listening to uncompressed music.

01:17:36   Yes, yes.

01:17:37   That keeps the COVID right out of your nasal passage.

01:17:41   What lets those damn COVID--

01:17:45   those little COVID bits get in there is MPEG-3 compression.

01:17:51   It slips through the gaps in the ones and zeros.

01:17:53   No, there's--

01:17:57   Yeah, I was trying to remember it,

01:17:58   because I knew he had said some stuff that was eye-rolling.

01:18:00   And I didn't-- and I couldn't remember exactly what it was.

01:18:03   And so I had to lick it up when this came up.

01:18:06   I was like, oh, yeah, that's right, it was audio stuff.

01:18:09   It's funny, too, because a lot of the--

01:18:11   I don't know about him in particular,

01:18:12   but a lot of the artists of his generation

01:18:15   have serious hearing problems.

01:18:17   I mean, Pete Townsend famously, because they just

01:18:20   didn't know back then, and they'd play their music loud,

01:18:22   and they didn't have all of the earplugs in the--

01:18:27   it's not just plugging up your ears

01:18:29   so you don't go deaf from the loud music,

01:18:31   but also that now they have the little wireless thing

01:18:34   so the artist can hear the feedback

01:18:37   so they can tell they're playing the music.

01:18:38   But I forget.

01:18:39   Amy was telling me-- it was very funny,

01:18:41   but I think it was Billie Eilish and her brother

01:18:43   met Elton John, and somebody was on a talk show talking about it.

01:18:48   And they were like, he can't hear anything.

01:18:51   You have Adam.

01:18:52   And it's like, who knew?

01:18:54   But a lot of the people, the artists who came up

01:18:58   in the '60s and '70s, they have some hearing problems.

01:19:00   So Neil Young seems to think he can

01:19:02   hear the difference between high quality MPEG-3s

01:19:05   and uncompressed audio.

01:19:08   Who knows?

01:19:08   Maybe he can.

01:19:09   I don't know.

01:19:10   If anybody could, maybe it's him.

01:19:13   Maybe he just feels it.

01:19:14   Yeah.

01:19:15   Yeah.

01:19:16   That's it for me.

01:19:17   You got anything else?

01:19:18   Do you understand this?

01:19:19   I don't understand this thing with Dropbox.

01:19:20   Yeah, we should talk about the Dropbox thing.

01:19:22   I forgot about that.

01:19:24   I guess what I don't understand is what is actually being--

01:19:27   like, some underlying Apple thing

01:19:29   is changing so that Dropbox and Microsoft--

01:19:33   OneDrive.

01:19:34   OneDrive will no longer be able to sync in the way

01:19:38   that they used to, or no--

01:19:41   explain it to a dumb person who is me.

01:19:44   All right.

01:19:45   So I think it's the fact that they both use kernel extensions

01:19:51   to implement some of the file system stuff that they do.

01:19:54   And kernel extensions in general are dangerous and a source

01:20:00   of system instability, because a bug in a kernel extension

01:20:05   could cause the whole system to shut down

01:20:07   and/or a security problem for the same reasons.

01:20:10   And so Apple-- even if you want to say that Apple is being too

01:20:15   protective with the Mac and the whole general argument

01:20:19   of turning the Mac into more like iOS,

01:20:23   steering third-party developers away from kernel extensions

01:20:26   is at the far end of that.

01:20:27   It's probably a good idea.

01:20:29   And I think it was--

01:20:30   I'm pretty sure it was macOS Catalina 10.15.

01:20:34   And they announced it at WWDC 2019,

01:20:38   that they have these file provider extension

01:20:41   APIs that started on iOS, which is

01:20:44   how third-party things like Dropbox or like--

01:20:48   you could connect your web server with SFTP

01:20:52   and have them show up in the Files app.

01:20:55   They're called file provider extensions.

01:20:58   They were going to bring those APIs or a version of them

01:21:01   to the Mac for similar services.

01:21:04   And that way, instead of running in the kernel space,

01:21:08   meaning system level, they'll run in user space.

01:21:12   So it's just like running a regular app as a user--

01:21:16   more secure, more forward thinking.

01:21:19   And I think that this is where it's-- there's only

01:21:24   a handful of providers like this, right?

01:21:28   And Dropbox and Microsoft are the two

01:21:30   who seem to be affected by this cutoff.

01:21:32   But effectively, in 12.3, which is now in beta, macOS 12.3,

01:21:38   those kernel extension APIs that they're using

01:21:41   are not going to be there anymore,

01:21:43   so that their kernel extensions that currently are in use

01:21:47   will not work.

01:21:49   It seems like a weird thing to come in a 0.3 update.

01:21:53   Like, why didn't it come in 0.0?

01:21:54   But I'm under the impression, somewhat informed,

01:21:58   that it was supposed to happen with 12.0.

01:22:00   And because Dropbox and Microsoft weren't ready,

01:22:03   Apple was like, OK, now--

01:22:04   They pushed it back.

01:22:05   They pushed it back.

01:22:06   But it was like two years warning back in 2019,

01:22:10   and now is when it's coming due.

01:22:13   Microsoft has a thing in beta that

01:22:15   has all their functionality.

01:22:17   Dropbox, I think, looks like it's going

01:22:20   to be at least till summer.

01:22:21   Dropbox is-- whatever complaints people have about Dropbox

01:22:24   on the Mac, it's gotten worse, because they only came out

01:22:27   with an Apple Silicon native version a couple of weeks ago.

01:22:30   I mean, and that's over a year, right?

01:22:32   I mean, and it's funny, because I still use it.

01:22:35   I used it throughout the whole period in Dropbox.

01:22:37   I didn't really notice that Dropbox was any worse

01:22:40   while it was running as an Intel-compiled binary.

01:22:44   But it was weird.

01:22:45   And every once in a while, I'd go to Activity Monitor,

01:22:47   and you can turn on--

01:22:48   there's like a column.

01:22:49   You can have all your processes listed

01:22:51   and see which ones are Apple Silicon

01:22:53   and which ones are Intel.

01:22:54   And the only ones I had running were Dropbox's stuff.

01:22:57   That's it.

01:22:58   It just seems like it's like this weird thing

01:23:01   where running Intel binaries on Apple Silicon Macs,

01:23:06   they run so fast.

01:23:07   They're actually faster than most Intel Macs

01:23:09   running the same things.

01:23:10   That's how good Rosetta 2 is.

01:23:14   But at the same time, it seems like almost all the software

01:23:18   I use was updated to be native for Apple Silicon so quickly

01:23:21   that it didn't matter.

01:23:22   Like, even if the running the Intel stuff was really slow,

01:23:26   it wouldn't have really kept me from being

01:23:28   a proponent of the Apple Silicon Macs,

01:23:30   because so little of it was there.

01:23:33   But it's just, to me, a sign that Dropbox's commitment

01:23:37   to the Mac or just their competence

01:23:40   developing the Mac stuff is not entirely there.

01:23:43   And so they're the laggard who's--

01:23:46   and again, it doesn't seem like Dropbox entirely

01:23:48   won't work on 12.3.

01:23:49   What's not going to work is--

01:23:52   I forget what they call it.

01:23:53   It's like Selective Sync, where you

01:23:55   can have 4 gigabytes of stuff in your Dropbox account.

01:23:59   But you could say, I only want this subset of my folders

01:24:03   in my Dropbox to actually sync to my Mac

01:24:06   and just leave the other stuff as downloaded only if I need it

01:24:12   and tell Dropbox, OK, now I want to download this big movie

01:24:15   that I had sitting there.

01:24:16   But previously, it was just like a stub.

01:24:19   But they've had-- the thing that, to me, is the key

01:24:23   is it's not like Apple just announced--

01:24:26   and Dropbox's help file makes it seem like they just

01:24:29   found out about this last week.

01:24:32   Oh my god, we just saw this 12.3 beta.

01:24:35   It's going to break a bunch of stuff.

01:24:36   We're working really hard on it.

01:24:38   This stuff was all announced at WWDC 2019.

01:24:41   And the fact that the--

01:24:44   hey, Apple, of course, publicly emphasizes

01:24:47   we've got these great new file provider APIs that

01:24:50   are safer and more secure and more forward thinking.

01:24:53   They don't emphasize the, and we're

01:24:55   going to take away the old thing because that

01:24:57   doesn't sound like fun.

01:24:58   But it's implied that they're going to take away

01:25:01   the old thing at some point.

01:25:02   And I think it's safe to assume that Dropbox and Microsoft are

01:25:06   high enough up that Apple's developer relations have

01:25:09   let them know it was not as--

01:25:12   and the big tell is that Box, which

01:25:14   is another competitor in that exact same space,

01:25:17   they announced full support for the new stuff in October,

01:25:21   so like months ago.

01:25:22   Box is ready to go and has no missing features.

01:25:25   And when 12.3 comes out, people who are using Box

01:25:29   don't have to know any of this, and it'll all just work.

01:25:31   Microsoft, I think, will probably--

01:25:33   it's going to be very close to maybe when in March MacOS

01:25:36   12.3 actually ships to consumers.

01:25:39   They're probably going to come in right under the gun.

01:25:41   Dropbox, I think, based on their communications,

01:25:44   is going to be late.

01:25:45   But they shouldn't have been.

01:25:47   That's the key.

01:25:48   And so I think--

01:25:49   Well, and you can argue, certainly,

01:25:51   and I think there is some merit to the argument

01:25:54   that they're not making as much of an effort

01:25:57   because Apple has basically decided

01:26:00   that they're going to move into the things that Dropbox does.

01:26:03   Apple is deciding that they're going

01:26:05   to try and make it easier for people

01:26:06   to do the simple things that people used to use Dropbox for.

01:26:09   And so Dropbox does not care about Mac users that much

01:26:13   anymore.

01:26:14   I guess, but I don't know.

01:26:16   Box does, obviously, or they care enough

01:26:18   that they did the right thing.

01:26:20   I mean, and that was the speculation.

01:26:22   A friend of the show, Stephen Hackett,

01:26:24   had a post that I thought was a little surprising, where

01:26:27   he just spitballed the idea of, hey,

01:26:29   maybe Apple is pulling a rug out on Dropbox and OneDrive

01:26:34   because they've got iCloud Drive that has similar features

01:26:37   and doesn't have a problem in MacOS 12.3 with files

01:26:42   that are only in the cloud.

01:26:43   And again, I think it speaks--

01:26:45   that the idea would even pop into Stephen Hackett's head.

01:26:48   To me, speaks to the growing resentment and skeptical eye

01:26:52   that even longtime Apple users look at the company now.

01:26:57   Like, if there's any angle where maybe they're

01:26:59   trying to get people to sign up for Apple services

01:27:02   or upgrade to a higher tier of services,

01:27:05   that idea pops into our heads in a way that

01:27:08   didn't five years ago, maybe.

01:27:11   I wouldn't-- it doesn't seem like, again,

01:27:13   when we talk about the things that

01:27:14   are a rounding error for Apple, this

01:27:16   seems how many more people are they going to get to sign up

01:27:18   for higher storage tiers of iCloud.

01:27:21   Maybe.

01:27:22   I guess it's possible.

01:27:23   It's even more likely that they're

01:27:24   going to get people who are just going to sign up

01:27:26   for the Apple One, the whole getting caboodle thing.

01:27:28   And that is what they're eyeing for everything.

01:27:35   And every little thing--

01:27:36   no one thing is going to tip people over,

01:27:39   but it's all this stuff together that's going to say--

01:27:41   that's going to make it--

01:27:42   and that's what it's done with me, certainly, is,

01:27:44   why not get that thing?

01:27:45   It's $25 a month or whatever it is, and $29?

01:27:48   I don't even remember.

01:27:49   But it's got enough in there that it makes sense.

01:27:52   Tim Cook is listening, and he's thinking, yes, that's exactly

01:27:55   it.

01:27:55   You don't even remember.

01:27:56   [LAUGHTER]

01:27:58   Perfect.

01:27:59   Steepling his fingers.

01:28:01   Yes.

01:28:01   Excellent.

01:28:02   Perfect.

01:28:03   And now he's got a little dial there on his desk,

01:28:05   and he's turning it up.

01:28:08   $29 a month?

01:28:09   $35 a month.

01:28:11   And the vault said $29 a month.

01:28:15   He doesn't remember.

01:28:16   He wouldn't even notice.

01:28:17   No, because it's under $30.

01:28:18   I would say the other thing, though, to think about

01:28:20   is the fact that for people like me who like to complain now

01:28:23   about Dropbox, even though previously having

01:28:26   been fans of the service, it falls under the same thing

01:28:30   that people have been complaining about now

01:28:33   with the direction 1Password is taking their company

01:28:36   and the product, where they're moving to the enterprise.

01:28:39   And Dropbox raised billions and billions of dollars.

01:28:43   And to make that money, they're not selling $10 a month plans

01:28:47   to individuals or families.

01:28:50   It's business and the enterprise.

01:28:53   And iCloud isn't in that space.

01:28:56   iCloud Drive, from my perspective

01:29:00   and your perspective, competes with Dropbox.

01:29:04   You can like, well, should I put--

01:29:06   I have both.

01:29:06   I've got iCloud Drive and I've got Dropbox.

01:29:08   Where should I put it?

01:29:09   Which one should I pay?

01:29:10   Should I maybe cancel my Dropbox and just try

01:29:12   to go all in on iCloud Drive?

01:29:14   That's not Dropbox's business, right?

01:29:17   It certainly isn't where it was originally, maybe,

01:29:20   where it was sort of like an enthusiast tool.

01:29:22   But now it's an enterprise thing.

01:29:24   And so Apple, even if some contingent at Apple

01:29:30   really wants to get as many people

01:29:31   to pay for more iCloud Drive storage as possible,

01:29:35   that's the number one priority across all of Apple.

01:29:38   Even in that scenario, which I think

01:29:40   would be a really foolish way for Apple

01:29:43   to try to raise their revenue for the next year,

01:29:46   but even if it was their number one thing,

01:29:49   I don't think it would make them any less interested in fully

01:29:53   supporting Dropbox and OneDrive with their modern APIs, right?

01:29:59   Like, it's not about trying to get people

01:30:02   to switch to iCloud Drive.

01:30:04   It is, we want to get these things out

01:30:07   of the kernel, out of the kernel.

01:30:08   We don't want Microsoft's, and certainly not Dropbox,

01:30:11   running kernel extensions anymore.

01:30:13   I will say, I think Apple is also

01:30:16   famous for having it both ways, though, too.

01:30:19   They often try to err on the side of,

01:30:21   well, this will make a better experience,

01:30:23   and also we can charge more for it.

01:30:26   Well, and the other thing, too, is they are famous, too,

01:30:29   maybe infamous for--

01:30:31   Yeah, yeah, maybe that's a better word.

01:30:33   But they don't necessarily dog food the same thing,

01:30:36   where they could say, we've got these great new APIs

01:30:38   for Dropbox and OneDrive, and they're not the APIs

01:30:42   that iCloud Drive is using, because iCloud Drive is blessed

01:30:45   and is part of the system.

01:30:47   But I really do think that for the Mac in particular,

01:30:50   Apple wants it to be a good corporate citizen.

01:30:52   They know that it's a big part of the Mac's success

01:30:54   is that the Mac is like in a--

01:30:55   you know, it's no longer if you work in the enterprise,

01:30:58   you have to use Windows.

01:30:59   The Mac is a big part of that, and using services

01:31:01   like Box and OneDrive and Dropbox and et cetera

01:31:04   is a big part of that.

01:31:05   All right, I'm glad you remembered that.

01:31:07   Glad to have you back.

01:31:07   Yeah, I wanted to explain to me, because I didn't quite get it.

01:31:11   So we shall see.

01:31:12   My thanks to our sponsors.

01:31:14   Who do we have?

01:31:14   We had Memberful, where you can sign up to monetize your passion

01:31:18   with membership.

01:31:19   We had Linode, the web hosting, and--

01:31:22   oh, man, that's where I host Staring Fireball.

01:31:24   That's all you need to know.

01:31:25   And last but not least, Mac Weldon.

01:31:28   Oh, my god, how could I forget Mac Weldon?

01:31:30   Like I said, I've got--

01:31:31   Wearing it right now, yeah.

01:31:33   Wearing it right now, including my lucky pair

01:31:35   of Mac Weldon underpants.

01:31:37   Your one pair of Mac Weldon underpants.

01:31:40   Everybody who enjoys their molts,

01:31:42   you can get more molts on the Rebound podcast.

01:31:45   What's the address for that?

01:31:46   Why am I supposed to know?

01:31:48   I believe it's reboundcast.com.

01:31:51   Reboundcast.com.

01:31:52   I'll bet if you go to DuckDuckGo and type molts rebound,

01:31:55   it'll take you right there.

01:31:55   Oh, you can definitely find it there, yeah.

01:31:57   And you got the Biff with a superhero show

01:32:00   with the last week's guest.

01:32:02   That's on the incomparable.

01:32:03   Go buy a t-shirt.

01:32:04   I sell t-shirts too on Cotton Bureau.

01:32:08   It's under Giant Squid Productions.

01:32:10   Giant Squid Productions on Cotton Bureau.

01:32:12   Some of the best--

01:32:12   A bunch of nerd shirts.

01:32:13   Nerd shirts, yeah.

01:32:14   I'm sure there's something there you'll enjoy.

01:32:16   Yeah, you're probably barking up the wrong audience on this show.

01:32:20   I'm sure.