The Talk Show

333: ‘Schrödinger’s Feature’, With Rene Ritchie


00:00:00   I guess it's a tradition. I don't know how many years now we've been doing the year in review

00:00:04   together. Apple.

00:00:05   forever. It's just been forever.

00:00:06   Forever. Forever. It feels everything feels like forever now. Right? It's like we're at the end of

00:00:11   COVID season two.

00:00:12   Yeah, 2020 Junior or is it 2020 resurrected? I forget what I went with.

00:00:17   There's a very strong sense of deja vu with everything going to hell.

00:00:21   Yeah. And I'm just hoping that CSS is big announcement isn't the Omega variant. If

00:00:27   they decide not to unveil that I'll be very happy this year.

00:00:30   It's just speaking with Dieter Bone and I was like, you guys aren't going are you? And he's

00:00:35   like, Oh, no, we canceled first. Like they were like, but like, they didn't announce it early,

00:00:41   because they wanted to, you know, tell all their partners and stuff. But you know, they saw this

00:00:45   coming a while ago. But it is kind of sad because I feel like six months ago, CES was looking like,

00:00:52   hey, this, you know, this all might work out. I don't blame them for trying. I wouldn't want

00:00:57   to be the one to pull the trigger and tell everybody to cancel. But boy, they should,

00:01:02   it feels like they should cancel.

00:01:03   If you just want to sit in your room at Aria and eat steak for a week, you can get the best deal.

00:01:10   I do. I just, you know, and I am not a particularly COVID phobic person at this point,

00:01:22   fully vaxxed, my family vaxxed, everybody boosted. But you don't have to be particularly

00:01:29   worried or fearful of it to put your finger in the air, see which way the wind is blowing and say,

00:01:36   hey, maybe we should not have a major conference with people from all over the world.

00:01:41   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, and it's not just that. I mean, like, we did not get our booster shot

00:01:45   shit together at all. So we're locked down again, which is what it is. But there's just so many

00:01:50   people who are out and so many resources that are stretched thin, that there's no buffer for anything.

00:01:55   Like there's just nothing else that can go wrong for any of these events and their emergency staff.

00:01:59   And like having that many people there, it's gonna go wrong. So it just seems smart to

00:02:03   err on the side of caution.

00:02:05   **Robert Stauffer** Yeah, I don't want to do a whole COVID segment here. But I feel very strongly

00:02:09   that counting cases is no longer the way to go. It's a it's a it's an interesting number. It should

00:02:14   be one of the statistics, but people are so much more willing to get tested and testing. Yes, even

00:02:21   though home test kits are extremely I don't know about up there, but here there it's you can't get

00:02:26   them, which sucks. And it's a huge own goal, you know, that we sort of put all of our all of our

00:02:35   chips on vaccines, you know, the testing should have been up there. But home tests don't count

00:02:41   towards the test numbers anyway, right? Like so in other words, when local governments or whatever

00:02:46   governments report, you know, case numbers that doesn't include home tests anyway. But cases isn't

00:02:52   what to test or isn't what to look at. It's hospitalizations and deaths, of course. And you

00:02:58   look at the hospitals and around here, it is really getting worrisomely full. And there's other places

00:03:03   where it's stuffed to the gills. And to me, that's that's, you know, I mean, it's just common sense.

00:03:07   If the hospitals are full, we don't have room for more people to get sick. So take it. And

00:03:13   any kind of sick. That's the thing. It's like, right. It's like, don't go out and get hit by

00:03:15   a car either. Because like, it's gonna be real hard to get a bed. Right. Again, I don't want to

00:03:18   do a whole COVID segment. But it's super, super frustrating for people who are vaccinated and have

00:03:23   done everything right. And have some other any other kind of illness or accident, you know, you

00:03:29   slip and fall and need emergency room care for your ankle or something like that. And the whole

00:03:35   goddamn place is full of people who are unvaccinated full of COVID.

00:03:39   Jared Polin And to tie it in, like, I just watched Apple Store closings,

00:03:42   if the Apple Store, my area closes, I stay home. That's what I do.

00:03:45   Dave Tilley I think it was Josh centers from tidbits, who pegged this, you know, year ago,

00:03:50   you know, sometime at 20 in that great blur of 2020, that Apple Store closings were a reasonable

00:03:56   metric for what's going on, because Apple is, you know, I don't know if you've heard this, but,

00:04:01   you know, they're a very successful company at making money. And they're logistically apt.

00:04:07   Right. Right. So Apple Store closures have been a pretty good barometer for what's going on,

00:04:13   because they want to have the stores open, because they want to make money. They want to make money,

00:04:19   and they want to sell things to people. But they're also, I think, you know, and I know that

00:04:24   there's a lot of complaints about the overall retail employment satisfaction in Apple retail,

00:04:33   but overall, they're, I think they've done a pretty good job at not trying to keep stores open

00:04:38   when they shouldn't be open for COVID throughout this whole thing. And yeah, there's an awful lot

00:04:43   of store closures. So good luck to everybody. Stay safe. Have your New Year's inside alone.

00:04:49   Jared Polin Listening to the show.

00:04:50   Dave Tilley Yeah, listening to the show.

00:04:52   What could be better for New Year's Eve? Anyway, what we do every year, Renee and I, we go through

00:04:58   the year, look back at the Apple year in review. So let's get started. Right?

00:05:03   Jared Polin Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:05:05   Dave Tilley January, here's what we've got. John Ternus

00:05:08   became senior vice president of hardware. Dan Riccio took over VR and AR, I guess hardware,

00:05:16   right? Because Mike Rockwell, of course, still leads the software effort there.

00:05:20   John Ternus Yeah, I think Apple has a sort of policy where every

00:05:23   major product has to have a senior vice president level owner, like, you know, like Jeff Williams

00:05:28   famously owns the Apple Watch, even though Kevin Lynch makes the software and there's hardware

00:05:33   leads and all those, but there has to be someone on the executive team that owns it. And it was Dan

00:05:40   Riccio was one of the owners, like he owns a ton of stuff, because just he's good at it. And he ships

00:05:44   iPhones every year on the year, which is one of the biggest achievements in consumer electronics.

00:05:49   But they wanted him to focus on this. So John Ternus, who's also terrific, and has been taken

00:05:53   over the iPhone, and he's been announcing, you've seen him on stage now for the iPad Pro for the M1

00:05:58   Max, he's now doing the big hardware job. And Dan is focusing on VR, which to me is just one of those

00:06:05   signposts on the way to it becoming a real product. Dave Tilley

00:06:08   Yeah, it seems well, it seems like to clarify what you just said, which I agree with, but it seems

00:06:13   like what Apple really does is for new products, they put somebody in charge of. So Ternus is in

00:06:21   charge of quote unquote, hardware, but that more or less means like existing hardware platforms that

00:06:27   have sort of stabilized, right? You know, Mac, iPad, iPhone, those sort of things. And, you know,

00:06:36   in the same way that when watch was a new initiative, Jeff Williams was in charge of it.

00:06:41   And now it, Riccio is in charge. Do we know that, though? I mean, that he's in charge of AR/VR? Did

00:06:48   they say that? I don't think Apple said that. I think that's just been widely reported, because

00:06:52   he didn't leave Apple. It's sort of like when, when they, like, John G and Andrea now, he's taken

00:06:59   over Titan, you know, it was previously Mansfield had come back for it famously. And those are just

00:07:04   sort of the comings and goings that people, people read the criminology behind that.

00:07:08   Right. But it's any in as far as we know, and you know, German is our, our, our people into

00:07:15   Apple's internal structures. Riccio has not gone to project Titan. And therefore, it's sort of like,

00:07:22   whatever's left must be it. And we know that's AR/VR efforts.

00:07:27   Yeah, yeah. And it's it does feel like we're getting we're getting closer to that this year.

00:07:31   Like when you look at competing products, they're more, they're more reaching that part where Apple

00:07:36   doesn't really like the early adopter phase. They were like, when they start just becoming bridging

00:07:41   over to mainstream adoption. And that seems when you look at what's selling over this year,

00:07:45   especially things like Facebook's quest to how popular those things are becoming that it's,

00:07:50   it's getting to the point where Apple usually enters a market.

00:07:53   Yeah, I saw today, which I know is not 11 months ago, but today, somebody, you know,

00:07:59   I think it was CNBC said that the number one app in Apple's App Store the day after Christmas was

00:08:06   the Oculus app, you know, implying that enough people got with what's now called the quest to

00:08:13   right? Yeah, is that right? The quest to is what used to be called the Oculus enough people got it

00:08:19   for Christmas that downloads of the iOS app to whatever with it promoted the app to number one,

00:08:26   I don't think it's a big number, though. It is just something to be said for the fact that it is

00:08:31   the end of 2021. And you still cannot go into a store and find a PlayStation five, or a GPU or an

00:08:36   Xbox Series X. And Facebook is just flooding the market with, I think, pretty much at cost quest.

00:08:41   So it's a huge distortion field. But but people are starting to look at them as like mainstream

00:08:45   products. Jonas got a PS five for Christmas, and he's been very, very happy with it ever since he's

00:08:53   up there playing it now. But my wife took care of procuring it. She's much better at such things

00:08:59   than me because, well, she's she really is good at finding things that are hard to get. And she's

00:09:05   not a procrastinator like me. But I asked her, I was like, how did you you know what you have to

00:09:09   pay? How'd you get this? She's like, don't ask. Yes. I was like, all right, fine. You have to

00:09:14   either invest a lot of money or a lot of time into getting PlayStation five at this point. Still,

00:09:18   same with a GPU. Have you seen one? Have you played with a PS five? I have not. I have not.

00:09:24   I've seen the Xbox. And I've managed to get I managed to get a GPU and actually get one of the

00:09:28   new Nvidia cards by buying a whole entire pre built computer. The only way I could get one

00:09:33   without paying exorbitant prices for it. Yeah, Jonas and I have been talking about that and

00:09:37   looking at it. And yeah, he said the same thing that you got it, you kind of got to get a whole

00:09:41   computer. And yes, might be worth it. Then the neatest thing I am not a gamer. It's, it's I

00:09:48   don't anticipate really playing PS five much, but I am fascinated by it. I like I like the design.

00:09:54   It is a sort of a big box. But the thing that fascinates me are the controllers. They're

00:10:00   effectively they're standalone devices. And with, you know, they're standalone computers, right?

00:10:06   It is sort of it, the overall arc of everything has been going towards everything is becoming

00:10:12   its own computer, right? And in the same way that like your AirPods are each standalone computers.

00:10:19   Yeah, the maybe this was true for the PS four controllers to some degree. I don't think so,

00:10:24   though. But there's like, they have they clearly have their own accelerometers.

00:10:28   Yeah. And the very neatest thing that they do is the trigger buttons have a lot of pull,

00:10:35   there's a lot of distance that you can pull them in. And when they're connected, the software can

00:10:42   give them dynamic resistance. So like you can press them and it's like pressing a gas pedal

00:10:49   where you get more resistance, the more you press, or it could be something like at a certain point,

00:10:56   you get some resistance. And then when you push past it, it's like a burst, you know, you feel

00:11:01   like this tremendous haptic feedback. It's long story short, it is the most interesting haptic

00:11:08   device I have ever, ever experienced. It is interesting, because like when when Apple

00:11:13   announced 3d touch, Nintendo announced the those demos where they were showing the wiimotes. Maybe

00:11:19   it wasn't the wiimotes. Maybe it was already the switch controllers, pouring like making it feel

00:11:23   like you're pouring ice into a glass. And there was this whole optimism around tactile interfaces

00:11:28   that sort of just disappeared until somebody started demonstrating these controllers. Yeah.

00:11:33   Yeah. Jonas has the new Spider Man game and said it's awesome for the web shooters because it's it

00:11:38   once you get used to it. He said it's really, really cool where a tiny pole is a short web

00:11:43   and a long pole is long web, but you get this haptic feedback that makes it feel like you don't

00:11:49   have to think about it. It feels very natural. So anyway, that's pretty cool.

00:11:54   Jared: And I don't know if you saw it. And I have so many things I can say about Tim

00:11:57   Epic that I won't go into right now. But that demo for the Unreal Engine five,

00:12:02   oh, yeah, matrix demo they made. Yeah, that starts to make me interested in that next generation of

00:12:06   gameplay.

00:12:06   John Greenewald Oh, absolutely. But I also think that that demo gets to sort of my takeaway with

00:12:14   Unity's purchase of Weta Digital, which is the confluence of real time graphics and scenery being

00:12:24   produced by game engines, and movie special effects, which obviously take a long time. And I

00:12:32   know, you know, it's not exactly the same thing in that movies are always going to press the limit.

00:12:37   And because they can do things not in real time, but you could obviously do the final render and

00:12:45   take, you know, however long you want to render every frame, but it's getting to the point where

00:12:50   you could do, well, let's just fill this in for now, in real time and do incredibly dynamic stuff.

00:12:58   It's really impressive. It's really hard.

00:13:00   Jared: Famously, ILM is the volume, I think they use for The Mandalorian and other shows where it's

00:13:05   all these walls full of LCDs that are run by Unreal Engine. And I think the small one,

00:13:09   I forget what the small one's called, Walnut or something, where you can just do it around

00:13:11   somebody's head. And that mixes real time with classical special effects. And that just needs

00:13:16   to be the future.

00:13:17   John Greenewald Yeah, it's really, you know, and it just think about like, you know,

00:13:21   the way photography has evolved, right? Like, just, you know, in the film era, you'd take pictures,

00:13:27   hope they were exposed properly, you know, just take them into a dark room and develop them and

00:13:34   see what they looked like and hope they were the best. And now, you know, in the digital era,

00:13:38   everybody can see their photos as you go. It's the same sort of thing with VFX and this sort of

00:13:45   thing where you, you know, if you can do anything in real time, as you do it, you just get it's like

00:13:51   you're, you can play with it live and say, Oh, why don't we, you know, change the focal length

00:13:55   on this? Why don't we, instead of swooping the camera in, why don't we do something more subtle

00:14:00   and just place the camera here, you could do all sorts of stuff as you go.

00:14:04   Jared Ranere Yeah, even apples, you know, Apple, because of their silicon can do so much real time

00:14:08   in the camera that nobody else can do. And now that we have basically effectively ProRes on those

00:14:13   camera systems, you can fix almost any problem and cinematic mode lets you change the focal point

00:14:19   while you're doing it after you're doing it. It's an unbelievable shift in technology that I think

00:14:26   we don't appreciate always because it happens so step by step. We went from like portrait mode to

00:14:30   cinematic mode, and it's going to get better. But it's a huge shift from what you said, like just

00:14:34   doing on film. Pete Lienberg

00:14:35   Yeah, yeah. And that is a good example. You know, Apple's insistence, the camera team's insistence

00:14:39   that whatever they do, they do live in the viewfinder. It sort of speaks to the mentality

00:14:47   of being able to render VFX live and in real time. Jared Ranere

00:14:50   Yeah, or like the, what did I forget the app, I'm blanking on the app, the app they publish

00:14:54   separately that lets you swap out backgrounds. It is unbelievable what you can do in that app. Now,

00:14:59   you can replace whole backgrounds with interactive dynamic settings and augmented reality. And it

00:15:06   looks like you're in a mini Hollywood studio. It's just beyond fantastic.

00:15:09   Pete Lienberg So let's, let's move on February,

00:15:12   iOS 14.5. This is my, there wasn't much in February. But this to me is, has been and

00:15:20   going back to our previous statement that we're now, you know, in the midst of another COVID surge,

00:15:25   worth the effort. It wasn't like, hey, little too late. Everything's coming up sunny. So it's why

00:15:31   even bother shipping. But iOS 14.5 in February shipped with what has become quite literally,

00:15:38   I mean this sincerely, my very favorite Apple Watch feature, which is that you can unlock

00:15:43   your phone, your iPhone, while wearing an Apple Watch while you're wearing a face mask.

00:15:50   Ben Lee Yeah, and it's more complicated than it appears

00:15:52   because and a lot of people just said, Well, why can't you do this to begin with, but they originally

00:15:56   set it up so that the iPhone unlocks the Apple Watch, because they figured entering your passcode

00:16:01   on a watch would be annoying. And so making it do both is a huge security problem, because there are

00:16:07   so many intrusions that could happen when you don't have this known state of one unlocks the other

00:16:11   suddenly they go bi directionally. And they were smart because they made it incredibly dependent

00:16:15   on very specific conditions. And they also did things like if if it unlocks, but then it moves

00:16:20   far enough away, as though someone's trying to steal it, it'll just automatically relock. So

00:16:24   there was a huge amount of things they had to think through. But like you, it's almost transparent to

00:16:28   me at this point. It really is. And, you know, it now that we're back, I mean, for months now,

00:16:36   I mean, we had like a brief, brief respite during July, you know, mid June to the

00:16:43   store. So we're, you know, our Philadelphia lifted our citywide mask mandate. And it was so nice,

00:16:49   especially in the hot weather. I mean, but we never lost ours. We've had ours for almost now.

00:16:53   We had we had no masks for a while. And the COVID rate was ridiculously low. And it all seemed well

00:16:59   advised. And now we're back to masks. And I actually went out just the other day because I

00:17:06   didn't think I was going to run any errands. I was wearing one of my mechanical watches and forgot to

00:17:11   put my Apple Watch on before I left to get some groceries. And I didn't need to use my phone much.

00:17:18   I was listening to podcasts. So you know, you can do all of that from from the lock screen. But I

00:17:24   wanted to do something. And I was like, Oh, my God, I forgot what a huge pain in the ass this was

00:17:29   for like an entire year. And I mean, it is my single very favorite feature of Apple Watch.

00:17:37   And it's kind of a sign. It's always a good sign for a platform, as it is such a broad

00:17:43   stroke that I'm about to say, but it to me, it's always good when there's good new features for a

00:17:50   platform that were never envisioned when the platform was created. Right? Like the Mac was

00:17:56   not created with entirely revolutionizing the publishing and desktop publishing industries.

00:18:04   But the fact that it did was a sign of the strength of the platform. Like Apple Watch was

00:18:08   not created with, hey, in case there's ever a pandemic, and everybody has to wear a face mask

00:18:13   whenever they're out in public indoors. It would be cool if you could use the watch as an

00:18:18   authentication source to unlock the phone. Yeah, it was not envisioned. But it's

00:18:24   Jared Ranere: the whole security works off having three point like it needs both eyes and the nose

00:18:28   to get sufficient facial geometry to actually authenticate you it'd be like only getting the

00:18:33   top part of your fingerprint, it just doesn't have enough information to securely understand that it's

00:18:37   you. So now when you're attempting to face ID, it sees it can't get the other part of geometry. So

00:18:43   it throws over to the watch. And if the watch is there, it verifies and comes back. So it maintains

00:18:47   a good level of security while giving you back a good amount of convenience, which is always that

00:18:51   huge war between the two. Overall, it still is poorly timed for the face ID era that two years

00:19:00   of the face ID era have been during the COVID and the face masking, right. So we had the iPhone 10

00:19:06   year, the 10 s year, the iPhone beginning of the 11 11 that was late 2019 12. So four years, about

00:19:20   two of the four years have been face mask era. And it also sucks to say, Well, the answer is to buy a

00:19:26   $400 digital watch, right on top of your this iPhone SE instead of an iPhone, right, you know,

00:19:33   but it's, you know, it's unfortunate, and it's but it's it really has made a tremendous, tremendous

00:19:40   difference in just daily hassle. It really makes it as invisible as face ID. I think Apple doesn't

00:19:46   parts been there, like a lot of companies parts been their phones, like they just put it together

00:19:49   over what they have at hand, and they ship it as a new model. And Apple doesn't do that every phone

00:19:53   they make is two or three years of effort. So the phones that they've been putting out these last

00:19:58   two years, they were completely planned before this whole like, I know rumors make it sound like

00:20:03   Apple still making up their mind about everything the day before it ships, but doesn't work that way

00:20:06   at all. They were committed to all of these products years ago, and we're not going to see the

00:20:11   post COVID Apple for another year or so. Yeah. And you know, let's fingers crossed, knock on wood,

00:20:17   it's hope that COVID really does sort of fade away. I don't think it's going to disappear. But

00:20:21   let's say it fades away and becomes sort of a background part of our lives. This is a good

00:20:25   feature going forward anyway, because I have at least one regular df reader who is I believe he's

00:20:32   a surgeon, but he definitely works in a hospital. And he, you know, has been a thoughtful emailer

00:20:37   to me over the years. And when the iPhone 10 first came out, wrote me a really nice email and said,

00:20:42   "This really sucks for me because I spend an awful lot of my day with a surgical mask on and I cannot

00:20:48   unlock my phone." I'm pretty sure he can wear a watch. Probably can't wear a watch while he's

00:20:52   in surgery, but there's a lot of the day where he can, you know, there are a lot of medical

00:20:56   professionals who even when before COVID and let's say after COVID fades into the background,

00:21:02   have to wear a mask during the day and this feature will keep working.

00:21:05   Yeah, well, you know, my dream is that they just get their crap together and they have enough from

00:21:10   voice identification, facial geometry, touch identification, gait analysis, that they can just

00:21:15   keep our phone unlocked if they're fairly certain it's us. And then only challenges. So they really,

00:21:18   I'm tired of being forced to activate my own phone, John, that should be the phone's job.

00:21:22   I'm too late to authenticate. I wonder too, if the Face ID team has,

00:21:27   you know, over the last two years been working on just letting Face ID work while you wear a mask,

00:21:33   right? Because yeah, as a, just without getting, I have no idea how Face ID actually works other

00:21:41   than the very, very basics, right? Like I certainly don't understand the engineering of it at all. I'm

00:21:46   sure it's quite complicated, you know, and it's been out for five years. We, everybody seems to

00:21:51   still treat it as probably more secure than Touch ID. So they've done a good job. But just

00:21:59   as a reasonable ballpark idea, if a human being can recognize another human being while they're

00:22:08   wearing a mask, like if I can tell, "Hey, that's my wife, Amy, while she's wearing a mask." In

00:22:14   theory, a computer could do it too, right? It's sweet.

00:22:17   Yeah, they're all Lois Lane though. You put on a pair of glasses and suddenly they can't tell you

00:22:20   Superman. So in theory, Face ID could just work on its own with a mask. It's just that the

00:22:26   implementations and I think right down to the sensors, I think it's not just software, but down

00:22:31   to hardware are based on seeing everything from your eyes to the mouth, you know, if not the chin

00:22:39   and the shape of your chin and stuff like that. So it would take a rejiggering, but it's probably not

00:22:45   at this point. I don't think it would be a wasted effort. I really don't. No, it's just, it's getting

00:22:49   enough data. It's having enough points of a fingerprint. It's getting enough points of facial

00:22:53   geometry that the adversarial, because the whole thing is you don't want to let people in who

00:22:57   aren't you, but you don't want to stop you from getting in. And the way adversarial neural networks

00:23:02   work is you basically have like a Batman network that is in charge of protecting the device. And

00:23:07   you have a Joker network that's in charge of penetrating the device. And that trains the Batman

00:23:12   algorithm to better and better defend it. And your face can change and it allows for a large amount

00:23:17   of change and it keeps updating the data points over time. But once you start covering a large

00:23:22   portion of your head, there's just not enough data. It's like having half a fingerprint. So they'd

00:23:27   have to sort of figure out another way to get enough data that it'd be secure enough to keep

00:23:31   people out. Otherwise the same people would be like, okay, now it's fraternal twins as well as

00:23:34   identical twins that can get into it. And then it's all a problem. Right. But they did, you know,

00:23:37   and then when they first announced it, they said things like, hey, sometimes you wear glasses,

00:23:40   sometimes you don't, you might have a beard, you might shave your beard, you might grow a beard,

00:23:45   etc. and so forth. And they anticipated those things. It'd be interesting if face masks

00:23:50   are on that list. It works on Dalrymple. It should work on face masks.

00:23:52   Yeah. Because I also think, again, even in the optimistic scenario where COVID fades into the

00:23:58   background, one thing I think has permanently changed here in the West is the sort of stigma,

00:24:04   not even sort of, the actual stigma that we have had against public face mask wearing pre-COVID.

00:24:11   I think that's forever gone. I think even if in the ideal situation where COVID literally just

00:24:16   fades away over the next two, three years, I think we've forever broken that stigma and that when

00:24:22   cold and flu season hits, people will go out and whether it's to protect themselves or because they

00:24:29   feel like they have a sniffle or something like that, that will be more like Japan and other parts

00:24:34   of Asia where that's, it's just perfectly natural to see people wearing face masks, you know,

00:24:38   medical face masks in public. So it's, whatever Apple can do in that regard, I don't think would

00:24:44   be wasted even in the optimistic scenario where COVID fades away. Well, I mean, like everyone who

00:24:50   goes to events gets sick the week afterwards. That's like a known thing. It wasn't COVID,

00:24:54   but it was something. You know, knock on wood, that has never happened to me. In all the years

00:24:59   I've been doing it, I never once came home from like a Macworld Expo or WWDC and caught something.

00:25:05   And it's not that I never get sick or never get a cold. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's,

00:25:11   it could just be dumb luck. I don't know. But I know a lot of people that happens to a lot of

00:25:16   people. I know it's almost a... Jared: Like a tradition.

00:25:19   Pete: Yeah, like a tradition for some people. But I don't know, it's never happened to me. But again,

00:25:24   knock on wood that, you know, won't happen in the future. All right, on to March. The HomePod was

00:25:29   canceled. And boy, I'm still bummed about this. Jared; Me too.

00:25:33   Pete; So, they canceled the full-size HomePod and said, "We're going to focus on the HomePod Mini."

00:25:39   The HomePod Mini does seem to be selling well. I saw some sales estimates last week from somebody

00:25:44   that it's, you know, among the best-selling home speaker talk to the dingus devices. And it is a

00:25:52   good device. It's a good device for the price and it sounds good for the price. But it sounds

00:25:56   nothing like a pair of HomePods and... Jared; Yeah, especially the base and just

00:26:00   like how well they filled the room. Pete; Yeah. And curiously, you know,

00:26:05   there are major significant features that only are supported on HomePod. Like, you cannot,

00:26:11   you know, I have a pair of HomePods, I have more full-size HomePods than, you know, a surprising

00:26:18   number of them. I think we have six. I have two in my office, two in the kitchen, and two on our TV.

00:26:24   And I mean, I really like the way our TV sounds. I mean, I really, really like it.

00:26:31   And, you know, I'm sure there are audio files who might have complaints. It's not, you know,

00:26:36   you could certainly do a lot better. But for us and for how loud we can get it without disturbing

00:26:42   other people in the house, we never get, you know, never need to go past around 70% volume

00:26:48   and things sound loud, action movies sound boomy. I really love it.

00:26:53   Jared; Audio file is a psychological, not a scientific diagnosis.

00:26:56   Pete; Well, but I mean, I know what it's like to actually have like, I've been in rooms with

00:27:00   true surround sound and stuff like that. Jared; And you can spend a million bucks

00:27:03   on a sound system easily. There's no limit to what you can spend on one.

00:27:06   Pete; But I really like it. But you can't do that with the iPad or HomePod minis. And even if you

00:27:11   could, like, so the feature isn't even supported. And even if you could, I believe it's still not

00:27:17   supported, but it's even if you could. Jared; You get stereo, you get like two

00:27:20   channel stereo audio from it. Pete; Yeah, but that's, you know,

00:27:22   that's not good enough. Jared; That's, yeah, you don't want that.

00:27:24   Pete; So that's really weird that they have this great support for using a pair of HomePods as

00:27:30   Apple TV output and have even added features that let you use them as the audio output for your TV,

00:27:38   even when you're using another source, like an HDMI source. So like, you could be playing your

00:27:43   Switch and use your HomePods as the TV output, which is awesome.

00:27:48   Jared; Yeah.

00:27:49   Pete; But you, you know, now they're canceled. You can't get them. I mean, what a weird

00:27:55   failure on Apple's part. And I put in my notes that to me, it's more expensive, it's a more

00:28:02   expensive product than you even think as a $350 or $399 and you, you know, while they were on sale,

00:28:08   you could sometimes find them on sale for like 300 bucks. But to me, one HomePod was never the

00:28:14   product. The real product has always been a pair. And that's why I have pairs of them in every room

00:28:19   where I have them. And that it's sort of like a single HomePod is really a half of a set of

00:28:24   HomePods. Jared; Yeah. It's like having a single speaker,

00:28:27   it doesn't really, like it's fine, but it's nowhere nearly as good as having two.

00:28:30   Pete; The failure of this product is so curious to me, because I really think it's a terrific

00:28:35   product. And usually, for any company, but Apple in particular, because they usually don't fail

00:28:41   through lack of marketing effort or advertising panache. It's usually, you know, an Apple product

00:28:49   that does not succeed is because there's something, you know, it's actually not that great a product.

00:28:53   Whereas this to me was a… Jared; Yeah, there is this weird middle

00:28:57   ground though, where like, like with the iPod HiFi, where there are people who will spend,

00:29:01   again, millions of dollars on audio equipment. But there's also people who think that any

00:29:05   amount of money is too much for audio equipment. And Apple spent so long, like, I believe it was

00:29:09   five years developing the HomePod way before the Amazon, you know, smart speakers and the Google

00:29:14   smart speakers came on the market. And they just wanted this, they just wanted to solve this

00:29:18   problem. They make all these audio products, they have iPods, they have iTunes, Apple Music,

00:29:22   all these things. And most people don't have good sound in most of the rooms in their house.

00:29:26   And they wanted you to literally be able to just drop a box anywhere in the room and it would sound

00:29:30   great throughout the entire room, no matter where you were standing in the room. And because it

00:29:34   didn't have a screen, they just thought, okay, we'll just have Siri be the control. And while

00:29:38   they were getting all that together, all these smart speakers came out, and the entire market

00:29:42   shifted to a commodity, mostly assistant based thing, which this wasn't, but was suddenly being

00:29:47   classified and pitted against. And at that price point, it wasn't like high enough to really attract,

00:29:53   you know, like Mac Pro level customer interest, and it wasn't low enough to attract like the

00:29:58   iPod level interest and it kind of, I'm just surprised they canceled it so quickly, because

00:30:02   usually they're happy letting like a 2013 Mac Pro stay on the market forever.

00:30:06   Right. I guess that's what I'm most surprised by that they canceled it. Why not just keep

00:30:11   selling it? And I guess that we don't know. But it seems like there was a story at some point

00:30:18   during the year that somebody figured out that even when you were after they were canceled,

00:30:22   and people were buying like the last ones available, you could do some, I don't know if

00:30:27   it was serial number tracking or just copyright date on the box, but that they were all effectively

00:30:32   from the initial batch that they, you know, manufactured a batch and sold them until they

00:30:38   were out, but they weren't still making them maybe that they had made them all in an initial run or

00:30:44   something like, you know, close to that. And when they were done selling them, they were done selling

00:30:49   them. So hopefully fingers crossed, they have some sort of replacement in the works.

00:30:53   Yeah. And the other weird thing about Apple audio in general, I think you pointed this out for the

00:30:57   original AirPods is that Apple doesn't sell them for an exorbitant amount of margin. And,

00:31:02   but people look at them and say, they don't sound the value of the price. Like they don't sound as

00:31:07   good as $150 wired headphones or a $500 wired speaker, but that's because like the there's

00:31:14   Apple chipsets in there. There's there are sensors in there. There's a whole bunch of computational

00:31:20   stuff that you're paying for that has nothing to do with the audio really, but does inflate the

00:31:24   bill of goods. So even Apple selling them at cost is still way more than if they had no smart stuff

00:31:29   in them at all. Yeah. I don't know. So here's, I don't know. I don't know what they could be

00:31:33   replacing them with. They don't tend to change product names. I mean, it's not like after they

00:31:38   discontinued it, they were going to rename the HomePod mini HomePod and say, that's the new

00:31:44   HomePod, what we used to call the HomePod mini, but it is weird. It still is weird that they have

00:31:48   a HomePod mini and there's no HomePod regular. I mean, which I hope, you know, and maybe it's

00:31:54   just wishful thinking means that something else is coming and that they feel like they've figured out,

00:32:00   you know, I guess it's price. I don't know. You know, that if they can, can they make something

00:32:05   that's HomePod quality sound and features for $200 a speaker? I don't know. Yeah. There's like,

00:32:13   there's like three rumors. I think one is a HomePod 2.0. That's exactly that the other is a

00:32:17   HomePod with like a screen that would do that center stage technology so that you could have

00:32:23   calls on it very easily for the kitchen. And then a HomePod Apple TV hybrid that would be basically

00:32:27   like a big soundbar that you could have a whole home theater set up on. And I want all of these

00:32:32   things, Jon. Well, let's see. We've got a whole year ahead of us. There was a, in March still,

00:32:39   there was the Intel goes long ad, which is where Intel hired a former Apple spokesperson,

00:32:47   Justin Long, who was the IMA Mac to do some cringy. I think that's, I think that's being

00:32:54   generous even. Yes. Yeah. And a point, my point to put this on the list isn't so much to make fun

00:33:01   of the ads, but as where else to speak about the general transition from Intel to Apple Silicon.

00:33:09   It almost feels like they're so bad. There had to be like an executive at Intel that was really

00:33:14   angry and they were only made to make that executive feel better. That's the only way I

00:33:18   can explain these ads. Yeah, I think so. Or, or as somebody said at the time when I was writing about

00:33:25   them, that the target for the ad wasn't consumers. The target for those ads were OEMs who make PCs,

00:33:33   you know, that it was like Intel's sort of given a little. That's the thing. So these were like

00:33:39   such like just from a pure marketing point of view, these were incredibly bad ads because

00:33:43   in order to compete with Apple, they basically went to hardware differentiation,

00:33:47   which is Intel not only saying we're Pepsi now no longer Coke. Like they were completely seeding

00:33:53   top of the market mind share to Apple, but they were also saying that they were a commodity whose

00:33:57   only value came from the benefits that OEMs gave to them. And that they were basically

00:34:02   interchangeable with AMD because those same companies sold the same computers with AMD

00:34:07   processors as well. It was like the worst self-own I've ever seen in a, in an Intel marketing

00:34:12   campaign. It has been interesting watching the sort of sentiment sink in over the year,

00:34:20   right? We're a little bit over a year into the M1 era. And that before they came out,

00:34:28   there was a widespread, well, there can't be that great because they're just cell phone processors.

00:34:33   Yes. Right. And then they came out and everybody who actually tested it with their eyes open was

00:34:40   like these blow away the state of the art in comparable laptop PCs. And watching the rest of

00:34:49   the sort of PC half of the media industry sort of come to grips with this has been satisfying.

00:34:57   Yeah.

00:34:58   Intissidily.

00:34:59   Yeah. It's like, it was like watching Android get, sort of understand that what was happening

00:35:04   with Qualcomm over the last few years.

00:35:06   Because one of the things I've always felt, you know, literally always, I mean, going back to the

00:35:12   nineties, even when the Mac and Apple were in trouble that design wise, Mac OS was always the

00:35:18   superior operating system to windows, but obviously that's subjective and a point of taste. Whereas

00:35:25   the actual performance of these chips and certainly their performance per watt is objective

00:35:32   and it is objectively, you know, years ahead of where the x86 platform is and likely will be.

00:35:40   And so it doesn't, it's not subjective. There's no taste to be accounted for. If what you want to do

00:35:50   is have a windows PC, you can't have this. And that's unprecedented in the industry.

00:35:58   That's never been the case that they, you know,

00:36:01   that there's been a chip platform for personal computers or workstations.

00:36:06   Well, I shouldn't say never. Right. You'd have to go back to like the sun

00:36:12   spark station days, right. Where if you wanted, you know, sun's performance,

00:36:16   you had to buy sun hardware or a Silicon graphics or companies like that. But those were

00:36:22   15, $20,000 Unix workstations in 1990 something dollars, right? It, it, it terms of the consumers,

00:36:31   there's never really been anything like there's never been a situation like this.

00:36:34   Jared Ranere: No, it's only analogous to smartphones where if you wanted the performance

00:36:38   of Apple Silicon, you have to get the whole package. And now if you want the performance

00:36:41   from Apple Silicon on laptop and desktop, you have to get the whole package again.

00:36:45   All right. All right. Let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor. It's our good friends at

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00:38:39   for hosting my site and for sponsoring the show. We got to keep going to your kept going. April

00:38:46   now April is where Apple got busy. They had the spring loaded event where they announced,

00:38:52   let's see air tags, they add new features for Apple podcasts. We might as well put the hardware

00:38:59   in May because that's where we actually got to review it. But we could talk about

00:39:03   Jared Ranere>> We got a purple iPhone.

00:39:04   Pete Turner>> Yeah, we got a purple iPhone, which then disappeared, right? So it was only like

00:39:12   purple was not among the colors in the fall. So it was sort of a six month thing. Air tags, I guess

00:39:19   here's as fine a place as any to talk about, right? Where there's a bit of a pushback now where the

00:39:26   sort of FUD is coming out that they're being used to track people and it's reasonable, right? Like,

00:39:31   I don't say that with too big of a pair of dick quotes around it. It is reasonable for people to

00:39:38   say, "Hey, can this be used for bad purposes?" Maliciously, yeah. My understanding, because this

00:39:45   was a product that had been rumored for quite a while before it came out. And I don't think I'm

00:39:51   alone in thinking this, that the product was finished before, hardware wise, before Apple

00:39:57   was ready to announce it. And I think part of it was that they were still working through all of

00:40:03   the, as you said before, like threat scenarios, right? Like in sort of imagining how could this

00:40:09   be abused and what can we do to prevent that sort of thinking. But there's some stories now about

00:40:16   people using them to track cars they intend to steal. I think there was a story last week about

00:40:23   somebody who bought like a used car and then found a tracker in the wheel well, which somebody was

00:40:30   speculating. I think it was Benedict Evans that maybe the idea is that the car dealers put them in

00:40:36   and for whatever reason and forgot to take it out. But it seems like just a handful. It doesn't

00:40:44   really seem like anything has actually gone wrong with them other than a few anecdotes,

00:40:50   but it doesn't seem like there's any sort of widespread reason to be fearful of the existence

00:40:56   of air tags on the market. Yeah, it's interesting because whenever Apple enters a new market,

00:41:02   people suddenly find all these problems with the market. And that's because Apple attracts so much

00:41:05   attention to that market. I mean, there were tiles for years. Samsung announced their tracker before

00:41:11   Apple did. And none of those have anything as far as I can tell anything at all that will help you

00:41:17   with stalker or tracking prevention. You know, there's just none of that. You just buy them and

00:41:21   use them. But nobody notices because those products don't make a lot of noise. But Apple is always big,

00:41:26   big headlines. And I think that's great. I think Apple should be subject to tons of scrutiny.

00:41:30   I do wish that everyone would hold all these companies that can potentially cause as much

00:41:34   harm to the same level of scrutiny, but it is what it is. And this again is nothing that people who

00:41:40   are in surveillance care about at all because they've been able to get $50 real GPS trackers

00:41:46   off Amazon and previously off Radio Shack in places for years. But what this does is it attracts

00:41:51   a whole bunch of people who'd never thought of it before. And they're like, "Oh, I guess previously

00:41:55   I would have dropped a GPS tracker or I would have thrown a cheap iPhone SE into somebody's bag or

00:42:00   car and tracked them that way. But now I can get a four pack for a hundred bucks and I can just do

00:42:04   it." And I wouldn't have encouraged them before. So there's a level of the worst, like the dumbest

00:42:09   possible criminal element getting involved in it. But they've got all these things. Like, it's like,

00:42:14   anytime I get in my car, it chirps. Like it audibly chirps every single time I get in my car.

00:42:18   It's annoying, but like, I'm like, that's great because somebody else may not know there's a

00:42:22   tracker in there. So I think we always have to balance that these things are tools. Tools can

00:42:28   help us do wonderful things. They can also be horribly misused. How much value is there to these

00:42:33   tools and what can we do to sort of mitigate the malicious intent as much as possible?

00:42:37   Pete: And there's a sort of inevitability, right? Like, you know, there was, just go back to

00:42:42   cameras. There was certainly, and still is, you know, I think Joanna and I talked about this on

00:42:47   my show last week, that the growing number of cameras everywhere is certainly reason to be

00:42:53   concerned, but not, or worried, you know, or skeptical, you know, and to think about it and

00:43:01   to know where they are. But it's not like there's anything, we're not putting this genie back in the

00:43:05   bottle, right? Well, there were articles about camera phones in changing rooms for a long time

00:43:10   when they first came out. You know, I thought about it last week, too. I don't think I mentioned

00:43:15   it with Joanna, but I thought about it with, you know, having a teenage son. There's so many things

00:43:19   that me and my friends did in high school that I don't, you know, you'd have to be a—

00:43:26   Jared: Nobody will ever know about unless you were there.

00:43:28   Pete; No one will ever know about. And you'd have to be a complete moron to do any of them today

00:43:34   because it would be caught on camera. Jared; Why are you limping away from the science lab,

00:43:39   half on fire? No reason. Pete;

00:43:43   You know, nothing that I think I would have gone to prison for, but, you know, things that—

00:43:47   Jared; But who knows?

00:43:48   Pete; Yeah, who knows? Maybe.

00:43:50   Jared; Yeah, there but for the grace of God,

00:43:53   John, either of us could have been the lightsaber kid.

00:43:55   Pete; Have you found a good use for airpods, air tags?

00:43:59   Jared; Yeah.

00:43:59   Pete; I have a couple and, you know, I haven't, but it's part of the whole COVID second season

00:44:07   that we just haven't, I don't go many places, you know, and so, I don't know yet. You know,

00:44:14   I have one in my briefcase/laptop, over the shoulder laptop bag. We took two trips over

00:44:19   the summer while things were looking up and so I had a night, you know, an air tag in my bag.

00:44:24   But, you know, two vacations where it's like I took the bag to the airport, put it on a plane,

00:44:31   and you know, as usual, never really left my site and then took it to a hotel and

00:44:36   then took it home and that's it. And otherwise, my laptop bag hasn't left my house since March of 2020,

00:44:44   you know, two times. So, I'm glad there's an air tag in there, but it hasn't really, you know.

00:44:50   Jared; I think that was part of the reason that Apple didn't rush to get them out because they

00:44:54   knew they were releasing them under conditions that were less than ideal to show their value.

00:44:58   Pete; Right.

00:44:58   Jared; Like you, I didn't use cellular data for months. I didn't, I forgot what my credit card

00:45:03   pin was. And I have no idea where my gear bag was for a whole year. I had to end up actually using

00:45:09   an air tag recently to find the damn thing in my own house because it was in a closet I'd forgotten

00:45:13   about. Pete; Right. And it's like, I can't, you know, the things I still lose aren't really

00:45:19   practical for air tags. I have a pair of shoes. We went out to a nice dinner here on Christmas Eve

00:45:26   and I wanted to wear a pair of shoes that I'm not sure if I've worn since March of 2020.

00:45:32   Jared; Yes.

00:45:32   Pete; And it's like, and they weren't in my closet and I'm like, I know I put these somewhere

00:45:36   dumb. Where the hell did I put them? Well, I don't know. I didn't have air tags in them. You can't

00:45:40   put air tags in shoes. So, I had to hunt around and I figured out they were in the coat closet

00:45:45   by the front door for some crazy reason. But yeah, I feel like air tags are one of those things that

00:45:50   we kind of have to really wait for COVID to subside whenever that's going to be to really

00:45:55   find out how useful they are. What else, what have you been using for?

00:45:56   Jared; Because I am the person who'd like get up from the restaurant at CES and walk away and

00:46:00   forget about my bag. I'm going to have to go running back and hope that it's still there.

00:46:03   And I was looking really, I was looking really forward to actually having not have to worry

00:46:06   about that anymore. But like you said, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't seen 20 feet in.

00:46:10   Pete; Well, right or now you'd get the warning separation, right?

00:46:14   Jared; Yeah.

00:46:14   Pete; Yeah. I did play with it.

00:46:16   Jared; Which goes off with my cars in the garage. Like, I go upstairs from the garage and my car's

00:46:19   like, the electric car, why not? Like, I know.

00:46:21   Pete; Anything else? Do you have anything else that you have air tags in?

00:46:24   Jared; I have in my wallet, well, I'm going to tell everybody now, now they're going to know how

00:46:28   to pull them out. But I don't care. They're in my car, my wallet, my gear bag, extra set of keys.

00:46:34   And I forget where the last one is probably on something done, like duct tape to my Apple TV

00:46:38   remote. Pete;

00:46:39   Yeah. Do you really have one duct tape to your Apple TV?

00:46:42   Jared; No, but I should because I still lose the damn thing.

00:46:44   Pete; What else? There was the, also announced at this event was the changes to Apple podcasts

00:46:50   or new features to Apple podcasts, the subscriptions for subscriber only podcasts.

00:46:58   I forget what other changes were there. But as far as I can tell, the subscribing to podcasts

00:47:05   through Apple podcasts, it does not seem to be a big thing yet, if it ever will be, but maybe

00:47:12   I'm missing some segment of the market where it is a thing.

00:47:15   Jared; I think it's just fundamentally different. Like, when, because podcasts are so distributed

00:47:21   for good and for bad, like, podcast discovery is really hard because they're not on the same

00:47:25   platform, but it means that you can use your podcast client of choice and people had to

00:47:30   wrestle with, you know, I want to listen to Horace DeGueux's podcast, but I don't like using

00:47:34   Apple podcasts. So what am I going to do? Or maybe like you and Ben, you know, they want to listen

00:47:39   to you and then is there a version on Apple podcasts? Can we get it that way? What if I have

00:47:44   an Android phone as well? Then what do I like? I think it creates, it's creator economy through

00:47:48   complexity, which I don't think is the best solution.

00:47:50   Pete: Yeah, and it, it's like the App Store works because if you really want to have an app and you

00:47:57   want to monetize it, it's the only way. And if you want to have a podcast that is monetized through

00:48:04   subscriptions, it's not the only way. And what if you use another way, spoiler upcoming,

00:48:16   upcoming sponsor read, but if you use memberful or something like that, or, you know, like Ben has,

00:48:24   I was going to say Ben and I, but I, I haven't done any part of it, but Ben has built this system

00:48:29   for Stortecory called Passport, which we also use for dithering. And you just do it all through the

00:48:36   web. All we do is pay Stripe, you know, like three or just under 3%. And there's a, you sign into our

00:48:45   website and if you want to subscribe in any podcast player, including Apple podcasts, it's one link

00:48:52   away once you're signed in as a paid subscriber, there's, there's really no reason for us to use

00:49:00   the Apple podcast thing. Yeah. If they owned podcasts the way that YouTube owns video,

00:49:05   it would be a no brainer, but they don't. And it is where I have a ton. I do look at my analytics

00:49:11   through Libsyn for the show and by far and away, the two clients that really matter the most for

00:49:17   this show are Apple podcasts, but Apple podcasts is in second place. For me, it's Overcast is

00:49:23   number one. I forget, it might be like 60/40 or something like that. Or among those two 60/40,

00:49:30   because there's Spotify now and other good clients, but you can, you can listen to it

00:49:36   in any client. And so it just seems like a weird thing to want to lock into. It's, you know, I

00:49:42   don't blame Apple for trying, but it's, it just seems like there's a lot of yada, yada, yada in

00:49:48   the middle of the conception of why, why is this an appealing platform for a subscription based

00:49:55   podcast to use? Right? There's just, you got it. There's, there's some dot, dot, dot in the middle

00:50:00   that Apple hasn't filled in. And maybe for some categories, their, their share is so phenomenal.

00:50:06   Like maybe it's 90% of home improvement podcasts. I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know. And then maybe

00:50:11   it might make more sense, but for tech, it is so distributed. And then you have like Pocket Casts

00:50:15   on for people who use Android primarily. It's extra work. It ends up being at least as far as

00:50:20   I can tell. Yeah. And you know, for us with dithering, it just doesn't seem like there's any

00:50:25   reason to use it. It would just complicate things unnecessarily because people who use Apple podcasts

00:50:31   can subscribe as is pretty easily, maybe not quite as easily as doing it in the app, but you know,

00:50:39   pretty close to it if, if, if you'd know how to use a web browser, which, you know, it's,

00:50:43   it doesn't seem like a big ask. Yeah. And your audience is tech savvy. It's almost opted in

00:50:48   tech savvy audience. Well, and that's true. I mean, I think that overcast numbers speak to that,

00:50:53   right? That it's, it's not that overcast is hard to use, but the fact that you even know what

00:50:58   overcast is implies a certain level of tech savviness, you know? All right. On to may,

00:51:05   may was another big month. We could start, I guess, with the hardware that was announced in April,

00:51:10   24 inch M1 IMAX. Yeah. Yeah. I thought the most interesting thing about those is that they sort

00:51:18   of redefined the way people thought about M1 because previously they were only looking at

00:51:22   its efficiency in terms of battery life. And I don't think people realize that that efficiency

00:51:26   also taught also defines the design that you can make for the enclosure. Apple had to literally

00:51:31   have these bulbous behinds on the back of IMAX for years. And I still don't think right now,

00:51:37   like if you took Alder Lake, it would even fit properly in the standard IMAX enclosure. I know

00:51:42   Dave 2D's video, he couldn't get the thing without water cooling into a mini tower. So just the

00:51:46   prospect that Apple would have with that next generation of Intel chips that were like using

00:51:51   excessive voltage to try to catch up with AMD, it wouldn't fit in there. And because they're using

00:51:55   Apple chips, they could make this entirely new, really flat, flat IMAX design. Yeah. I, I still

00:52:02   think, and you know, because at the time that the M that the, and this is the first designed around

00:52:09   the M1 Mac, right. Which is kind of a neat thing, right? It's cause the, the M1 MacBook Air and

00:52:16   MacBook Pros that shipped in November last year, were all literally the same enclosures as the

00:52:24   Intel ones, which was a strategic thing Apple did to sort of keep the project as secret as possible.

00:52:31   I mean, everybody, including Intel kind of knew that Apple was moving towards moving the Mac to

00:52:37   its own silicon, but for whatever reason, strategically, the fact that this was 2020

00:52:44   was the year where they were going to pull the trigger and do it. They wanted to keep it secret

00:52:48   as long as possible. And they therefore kept the hardware right down to the camera, the keyboard,

00:52:58   everything exactly the same. So the first, what can we design around the M1 that we could not do

00:53:05   with Intel? The 24 inch iMac was the first example of that. I mean, and the 24 inch iMac is so crazy

00:53:12   thin and perfect, perfectly rectilinear with no bulb, no, not even like a pimple on the back.

00:53:19   There's no way that Intel has anything that would even vaguely fit in there and not...

00:53:25   I mean the Core Y from the old MacBook Air, but I don't think it would even power the display.

00:53:28   Right. Right. And, and both fit in there without melting it and satisfy, just merely satisfy as

00:53:38   opposed to completely please them, make them ecstatic over the moon with the performance,

00:53:44   just satisfy them with the performance. There is nothing, literally couldn't be done.

00:53:49   No. I mean that chipset took the MacBook Air from something that barely functioned to something that

00:53:54   was industry leading. And it's the same thing with the iMac. I also think Apple's bandwidth to push

00:53:59   out complete new iMac, sorry, new Mac redesigns is limited. Like we got two this year, and I think

00:54:06   that'll be sort of their pace and they'll stagger using the same containers with creating new designs

00:54:12   every couple of years from now on, just because it seems to take them a long time to get those

00:54:15   things done. It's as good a point to speculate about the future as possible. I mean, it does seem

00:54:23   like they're on a weird cadence, right? Where the easiest product to understand cadence wise is the

00:54:30   iPhone. It is completely annual. And the one year where it wasn't annual was the 4S where they

00:54:38   switched from a June release around WWDC or weeks afterwards to a fall release, which, as far as I

00:54:49   know, was completely strategic and planned. Jared: In October it was for Singleton.

00:54:55   Pete: Yeah. Sadly coincided with Steve Jobs' death, you know, and sort of put a pall over,

00:55:03   literally a literal pall over the event. But it's, you know, once a year, every year,

00:55:11   come September, there will be an event or October, you know, if something happens and it gets delayed,

00:55:16   you know, mid-September, early October, every single year, there's a new line of iPhones with

00:55:23   a new line of silicon. And that's the way it goes. The Mac schedule, let's see how it works out in

00:55:30   the long run. But, you know, for example, at this point, everything clearly is not annual because we

00:55:36   did not get updates to the MacBook Air or the low-end MacBook Pro or the Mac Mini. All the

00:55:42   stuff that came out in November of last year is still unchanged, you know, it is what it is,

00:55:48   still using the M1. I sort of guess, I mean, I know the rumor mill about M2 products,

00:55:56   and I know you've been all over it, you know, on your YouTube channel. It seems like it may not be,

00:56:02   you know, even the same calendar. I don't know that we're going to have to wait until November

00:56:07   to get new products. It seems like it could be like a spring thing this year.

00:56:12   - Yeah. Well, the extended versions of the Apple, so like the original A series, like they did,

00:56:18   it was very strange. Like they had A5X, A6X, no A7X, A8X, A9X, A10X, no A11X, A12X, A12Z,

00:56:27   no A13X, and then A14X ended up being M1. So that stuff was like on an 18 month, I think, sort of a

00:56:34   average pace. So we might get the same thing here where they're still going to have a new A series

00:56:40   chip every year, every iPhone, but then when they choose to make the new M series chips might vary

00:56:45   slightly longer. - Right. And for various reasons that I don't feel like going into,

00:56:51   because I don't fully understand, but the way things work, and this is a very,

00:56:57   it's just the way Silicon development works. It's the reason that Xeons come out after

00:57:01   the consumer level chips based on the same generation. It just takes longer.

00:57:07   And you come out with the regular M1 and then the M1 Pro and M1 Max, which are in very,

00:57:19   very high level lay person's terms, a couple of M1s put together. Obviously you can't do a couple of

00:57:29   them put together simultaneous with the original release. It obviously takes longer and those pro

00:57:36   level versions of the same generation are going to always come out later. So my guess is this spring,

00:57:42   pretty much when we saw the 24 inch iMac last year, we'll see the pro level, whether they call

00:57:51   it iMac Pro or I'm guessing they will, that they'll just say iMac is a 24 inch product with the

00:57:58   regular M1. And then the next one will have the regular M2 and the iMac Pro will be something with

00:58:05   like the M1 Pro and M1 Max that we just got last month or two months ago with the new 14 inch and

00:58:15   16 inch MacBook Pros. And the really cool thing is because the thermals are so good, they could put

00:58:20   dual M1 Maxes in the highest end model and it would still be drawing less power than the Intel chip.

00:58:26   Yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they do. So with the regular 24 inch iMac,

00:58:33   they just put the exact same chip in. I mean, I don't know if there's some, I forget,

00:58:37   but effectively it's pretty much just the same chip that's in the other, the original M1 MacBooks

00:58:44   and Mac mini. I wouldn't be surprised if that's not quite the same with the 27 inch, which I'm

00:58:53   guessing 27 inch at this point, even though I thought maybe they'd go to 30 inch, but let's

00:58:57   just say 27 inch based on some rumors that are coming out of the supply chain.

00:59:02   I wouldn't be surprised if it's not the exact same and limited to exactly what's in the 16 and 14

00:59:09   inch, but that they actually can do multiple Maxes. I don't know the Max Plus. I mean,

00:59:14   they're running out of adjectives. They stick at the end of these names.

00:59:17   I think it's just dual M1 Max and the iMac and quad M1 Max and the Mac Pro. And then it's just

00:59:23   so much more efficient and economical for their processes.

00:59:25   Yeah. And somebody had a thing the other day where every product, I think it was a YouTube,

00:59:30   I don't know what it was, but every single product in the world now either has Pro Plus or Max in its

00:59:37   name. And I get it, it's sort of a trend and maybe Apple is sort of spearheading the trend. They've

00:59:44   certainly been on top of the word Pro for decades, but the word Max, M-A-X, as a podcaster is so

00:59:56   problematic when you're talking about the Macintosh platform. The Max—

01:00:01   The Max, M1 Max, Max, M1 Max, M1 Max, Max, Max. It just doesn't make any sense.

01:00:05   It's a mouthful and it's not a problem at all in writing. I suppose it's a bit of a,

01:00:14   as much of a problem on YouTube, although on YouTube you can always put titles up, right?

01:00:19   [Laughter]

01:00:19   But the whole thing is just ungainly. It's like a MacBook Pro with an M1 Pro

01:00:24   or M1 Max. Both words are doubled up no matter what you do and it's just inelegant.

01:00:29   Right. And I'm not endorsing going to the 68-040X chip, something like that.

01:00:37   I'm convinced Sony product names come from 1Password, the password generator.

01:00:41   Oh, yeah.

01:00:41   That's all they do. They just pseudo-random blob, that's the password, that's the product name.

01:00:44   Yeah. So that's my guess is that pretty much around the time we saw the 24-inch regular

01:00:52   iMacs last year. This year we'll see the 27-inch iMac Pros. I look forward to that.

01:00:58   What else came out last year? The M1, and we also got our hands on these in May after being

01:01:05   announced in April, the M1 iPad Pros. I don't really-

01:01:09   Some people got so angry about it.

01:01:11   Why? Why do you think they got angry?

01:01:12   Because I think they're, I think partly Apple marketing, but also

01:01:17   Expectational Debt is they saw Tim Cook take a chip from a Mac and put it in an iPad. And there's

01:01:22   this contingent of iPad owners who have always loved the hardware but wanted it to be a Mac.

01:01:27   And they thought when that chip was moving over, they were getting Mac OS essentially on an iPad.

01:01:32   And it was never going to be that, but for a minute they were like just so excited and then

01:01:37   they realized it's still an iPad of course. Yeah. I'm not quite sure what it is that they

01:01:41   were hoping for. I don't have a lot to say about these. I mean, they're great. I mean,

01:01:45   I don't own one. I don't use my iPad enough to have purchased one to replace my 2018

01:01:52   whatever chip iPad Pro. But they're great. And if you're iPad first, it certainly is a great product.

01:02:01   But there's not much to add.

01:02:03   I love it for the screen. I have my MacBook Pro now and it has a mini LED HDR display. And I use

01:02:09   the iPad Pro inside car and I can edit videos. I don't release videos in HDR yet, but I love

01:02:14   to play around with it. And I have like full display HDR on one panel. I'm editing next

01:02:18   to another panel and it's the best thing in the world. It would have cost me tens of thousands

01:02:22   of dollars in the past. Yeah. It's a beautiful display. Center stage is a really neat feature.

01:02:26   It's probably the biggest, hmm. I wonder why they didn't do that with the new M1 Pro and Macs,

01:02:36   MacBook Pros. But I believe it's simply that there's no room for the camera that can be so

01:02:43   super wide angle in the really thin MacBook lids. I really think it comes down to camera hardware,

01:02:49   not some kind of marketing spite that you have to buy an iPad just to get center stage.

01:02:54   And I'm sure we'll get there. Like a lot of the stuff Apple starts off with a couple tests

01:02:59   and then they move it as quickly as or as easily as they can across the product line.

01:03:02   But it is, it's one of those features that sounds too good to be true. And in practice,

01:03:06   it's even better in my opinion than they promise it to be. The biggest problem with it

01:03:11   is that usually when we've used it, the iPad is in a magic keyboard case and is therefore in

01:03:19   landscape. And therefore the camera's not at the top center. It's in the middle of the display

01:03:26   to the left. And I don't know what the answer to that is. I don't know that Apple is really ready

01:03:32   to say that the canonical orientation for an iPad is no longer up and down, but left and right.

01:03:39   But I kind of feel like they should.

01:03:42   Jared I kind of screwed themselves too,

01:03:44   because they put the smart connector now on the bottom. Like if you're holding it in landscape,

01:03:49   the smart connector now is on the bottom. The Apple pencil charges on the top, and both of

01:03:53   those take up the physical space you'd need to put the camera there. So it's tough, but it should be,

01:03:59   if 2020 and 2020 junior taught us anything, it's that that's the way people are using them.

01:04:03   Pete Yeah. So I don't know what the answer is, but

01:04:06   hopefully, you know, they're aware of it as anybody else. It is a great like zoom device.

01:04:11   We've used it, you know, all of our school meetings. I mean, Jonas is in school this year,

01:04:16   but all the parent stuff is all via zoom. And we just use iPads for that. And it's, you know,

01:04:23   it's nice to actually look good in the in the footage, as opposed to using an old Mac from the

01:04:29   Intel era. It is funny, too. I just we were just watching the news yesterday. We don't watch a lot

01:04:36   of TV news, but something was up and we were watching something and I had an interview with

01:04:39   a local hospital official. And I was like, Oh, I know he's using an old MacBook, I can tell I

01:04:45   could just tell by the bluish tint, everything about it. I was like, I know it's not just a cheap

01:04:50   webcam. It was like that is absolutely the telltale look of Intel era MacBook of some sort.

01:04:56   And it's like, there used to be a time when you could not get on TV looking like that, you know,

01:05:06   with camera quality like that they would just send a crew to your house and actually have a real

01:05:09   camera. Yeah, they have you to find everything but the iOS, I saw the iPhone and the iPad cameras are

01:05:15   really good now except for the orientation. And the MacBook Pro cameras are and the iMac cameras

01:05:20   are really, really good. Yeah, especially because of the orientation. So I think we're beginning to

01:05:24   Apple TV 4k and a new God, you know, who's, uh, you know, angels singing a new remote control,

01:05:32   which I still love. I'm still very, very happy with. I don't have much to say about it. I mean,

01:05:40   are you used to the new place of the Siri or do you? Are you still like me pressing play pause

01:05:43   every once in a while to activate Siri? No, I've totally gotten used to Siri. Okay, my problem is

01:05:49   the power button. And I mentioned this on the show, I think when Ben Thompson was on a few weeks

01:05:54   ago, where my long standing and occasionally mentioned gripe that I could use the Apple TV

01:06:00   power to power everything off by holding power, but could not turn it on was solved with a setting

01:06:08   on my LG TV, go into settings on the LG and you go in and there's something, something and you can

01:06:14   turn on whatever the name of the feature is. I don't know why it wasn't on the by default. It's

01:06:19   nuts to me. But there's something you had, I had to turn on, on the LG TV. And now I can use the

01:06:25   power button on the Siri remote to turn everything on. And even if the HDMI was set to the switch or

01:06:33   to our TiVo, it'll switch the HDMI to the Apple TV too. It is wonderful. I love it.

01:06:40   Jared: Mine works like 19 out of 20 times. So, yeah, it won't turn on the TV or it won't turn

01:06:44   off the TV. You know, at the time we have the same thing and every single, like the 5% of

01:06:48   times when it doesn't work, it's always Amy, never me, which I wish were the other way around.

01:06:54   Jared and Justin: Yeah, same.

01:06:54   Jared and Justin: Because I'd rather have the problem than hear about it.

01:06:57   Jared and Justin Yes, absolutely.

01:06:58   Justin No, my problem with the remote is that once I've turned it on, when I first turn it on,

01:07:04   and I use that sort of hidden button, not hidden, but it's sort of meant to be disguised and out of

01:07:10   the way, that power button on the upper right, I suddenly, my brain thinks that's the upper right

01:07:17   button. And then I use that button as the home button instead of the, you know, the actual home

01:07:24   button on the Siri remote, like to just leave whatever app I'm in to go back to the Apple TV

01:07:30   home screen, I hit the power button. And it says, "Oh, you have to press this to turn everything off."

01:07:35   And I'm like, "I don't want to turn everything off." And I'm like, "Oh, it's like something in

01:07:39   my brain just and then I have to, you know, think about it, actually think about it. No,

01:07:47   once I've turned everything on, the top right button is down here in the middle."

01:07:50   Jared I don't know, I solve that by using the play pause button to turn things on. I don't

01:07:56   almost never use the power button. But only that button works to turn it on. Like you can't press

01:08:01   any button to turn it on. It's only that one in the middle. And if you forget that and press

01:08:05   another one, like, which is weird to me as well.

01:08:07   Pete: Yeah, but overall, I could not be happier with the remote. I love it. I even love it just

01:08:12   as a little thing to hold in my hand. It feels cool, it has a nice weight, it is just a-

01:08:18   Jared: It feels substantial.

01:08:19   Pete It is a very nice object in hand, could not be happier with it. I still feel like they could

01:08:24   have done a better job with the spin thing on the circle, you know, and I know that this was

01:08:31   something that was a source of confusion because it works in some places and then in other places,

01:08:36   it doesn't, but it does register the touch. So if you run your finger in a circle, instead of going

01:08:43   like down, down, down, down, down, down, down in the list, it goes like down, down, down, up,

01:08:47   up, down, down, down, up, up, down, down, you know.

01:08:50   Jared Well, I mean, like, one of the problems with the Apple TV, like, in my belief is that Apple is

01:08:54   not stringent enough about how things are implemented. And so you have a range of behaviors

01:08:59   across apps, not even including those really shitty, lazy OpenGL apps that Amazon and others

01:09:03   insist on using, but like some of them, you'll press menu and you're thrown right out of the,

01:09:09   I would say the word you did, but then I'll get yelled at by your entire audience, you get thrown

01:09:12   right out of the app. Others, you press menu and you get like, given this little thing saying,

01:09:15   "Do you want to see more episodes? Do you want to continue this episode? Here's information on the

01:09:19   episode." Others, like in YouTube, sometimes pressing that button will clear whatever pop up

01:09:24   is on the screen. In other apps, even if there is a pop up on the screen, throws you out the app

01:09:28   again, and there's zero consistency. Pete Yeah, we were watching movies as a family

01:09:33   before and after Christmas, a bunch of Christmas movies, and we were looking, and one night we

01:09:38   didn't have anything to watch. We didn't know what to watch and we were surfing around and I said,

01:09:42   "So we look at Amazon Prime and Amy, not even Jonas, but Amy said, 'I hate Amazon Prime,' and

01:09:48   I said, 'Why?' And she says, 'It just looks so junky.'" And I was like, "You know what? There's

01:09:51   a reason we got married." Like, she's not usually one to complain about stuff like that. But even she

01:09:56   thinks their interface just looks like, you know, it's hot garbage. It doesn't look like you're in

01:10:02   a Walmart. It looks like you're in the warehouse behind the Walmart. It's…

01:10:07   Jared Polin Netflix has a whole team making their app. There's no excuse for Amazon to just

01:10:11   keep porting that nonsense over. Pete It's really so junky-looking. I mean,

01:10:16   they've got some good stuff that is exclusive. I watched some stuff there, but man, the app is

01:10:20   always like, Jesus, nothing is animated. Everything's ugly. It's even a bad font. It's really bad.

01:10:27   Jared Polin So did you leave it on 60 frames per second? Because that's one of the big deals

01:10:31   about the new Apple TV is that you could put it on 60 frames per second. Or did you revert it back

01:10:35   down to like 30 or 24? Pete I haven't touched anything. I don't think anything plays at 60

01:10:39   frames per second. At least if I, you know, if I've watched it, I would notice if it was. I don't

01:10:44   think I've seen it. I don't think it works. Jared Polin I had to turn it off. Like, it looks

01:10:47   motion smooth to me. Like, I would go to the Disney+ app, but I'd watch some of the Marvel movies.

01:10:51   And I know, like, I know people are saying that it's not, but to me, it still looks motion smooth,

01:10:54   so I couldn't leave it on. Pete Well, maybe I did turn it off then,

01:10:57   because I don't notice, I would notice something that looks motion smoothie.

01:11:00   Jared Polin Yeah, it's just too clean.

01:11:02   Pete May, we're still in May. Apple went to court with Epic.

01:11:07   Jared Polin Yes. Epic versus Tim Apple.

01:11:10   Pete I mean, this was obviously a year long saga. There was stuff before the courtroom. There was,

01:11:17   obviously, decisions have come afterwards, but we might as well talk about it in May,

01:11:21   because that's when they actually went to court.

01:11:23   Jared Polin Yeah.

01:11:25   Pete It doesn't seem like anything surprising came out of the whole thing.

01:11:32   And it seems like everybody's sort of, anybody with any sort of informed opinion during the

01:11:39   courtroom is sort of like, looks like Apple's in good grounds here. But it was sort of a bad…

01:11:44   Jared Polin Uninformed opinions got published though, John.

01:11:46   Pete It was a bad look for Apple, though, you know, and I still say that Tim Cook's testimony

01:11:51   in particular came across pretty poorly, in my opinion. Not terribly, but just sort of,

01:12:00   just a little unseemly, you know.

01:12:04   Jared Polin Yeah, I can see that. Like, what's weird, though, is that he plainly, he plainly

01:12:08   said during his testimony that if the court decided that there could be transactions outside the App

01:12:13   Store, it would be onerous for Apple to collect their percentage of those transactions outside

01:12:17   the App Store. And then, flash forward a few months, people are shocked to discover that

01:12:22   Google and Apple are going to do this, even though they said plainly that that was their intent the

01:12:26   whole time. I think the coverage was, one of my problems was the coverage was completely subpar,

01:12:31   in most cases. Some people did a really good job. But also, to me, at the very beginning,

01:12:36   I was interested because it looked like Epic was going to try to make a case for, you know,

01:12:40   actually for the users and for developers and things that could be better. But the minute they

01:12:44   sued Google as well, and then when they put out their filing, and you paged all the way down and

01:12:48   saw what they really wanted was their own App Store so that they could be the ones collecting

01:12:52   this commission, regardless of the amount, it ended up becoming like, oh, you're opening a new

01:12:57   casino and you're haggling with the city of Las Vegas over who gets what cut.

01:13:01   Pete Lienberg Well, it's not just that they wanted their own App Store, it's that they wanted their

01:13:05   own friction free App Store. Meaning, meaning you are a Joe or Jane customer and you've purchased

01:13:14   a new phone, and you've gone right down the line with all the defaults and Epic wanted you and

01:13:23   still, I guess, wants you to somehow be able to install the entire Epic App Store as easily as you

01:13:29   Jared Ranerelle Like a browser ballot.

01:13:30   Pete Lienberg As easily as you install any other app right now, as opposed to, and I have an

01:13:37   Android phone, you know, I have a pixel four. You know, and I did it, I installed the Epic App Store,

01:13:45   you know, when this was new. I honestly think for people who want to be able to side load and want

01:13:53   that sort of thing to be possible, if you choose to use it, that the user experience

01:14:01   Google has designed for it is extremely reasonable and appropriate. And the things they warn you about

01:14:08   and the way they phrase their warning are completely appropriate. They're not overly scary.

01:14:15   Jared Ranerelle Epic hates it.

01:14:17   Pete Lienberg They're true. And they, well, they hate it because in practice, people don't use it.

01:14:21   People don't do it.

01:14:23   Jared Ranerelle In practice, people don't do stuff like that. We talked about this before, but

01:14:27   it seemed to boil down to this argument about what like what choice really means.

01:14:31   Does choice mean that every platform has to offer you a choice between a managed experience and a

01:14:37   completely freeform experience? Or can one platform offer you a managed experience and another platform

01:14:42   offer you the option for a freeform experience. And people have very different opinions on this,

01:14:47   and very different privileges when it comes to this. But I think that's still like console model

01:14:53   versus open compute model. And whether that has to be per platform or whether it can be across

01:14:58   platforms.

01:14:58   Pete Lienberg Yeah, I think that that what the epic Apple, my look back at it, and the way I

01:15:05   think I'll view it in hindsight is, as it becomes old news as years go on, and I think back to 2021

01:15:11   is less about the actual legal case, because Apple pretty much won almost everything,

01:15:18   and it looks like they're going to win the last remaining thing on appeal. And the other thing,

01:15:24   the thing about letting users, you know, collecting their email address, if they choose to give it to

01:15:31   you is something they should have given in any way. And Apple's response to it is sure, fine,

01:15:35   right? Like we will just concede that point that we're not even going to fight it. But the last

01:15:40   remaining point is on this in app payment thing. And what exactly it means. And it certainly looks

01:15:47   like based on the what we've seen so far that that Judge Gonzalez Rogers overreached by trying to

01:15:55   apply California law to something that it wasn't. But if there's a downside for Apple in it, it's

01:16:03   that it exposed the sort of raw nerves of resentment that have grown up in the developer.

01:16:11   Jared: That's a great way to put it. Right? It's, and that resentment was there. It wasn't

01:16:19   because if Epic hadn't had, you know, in the alternate universe, where the only difference

01:16:24   is that Epic never, never chose to make this fight, and Fortnite is just in the app store,

01:16:30   like it was a year ago, or two years ago, that resentment would still be there. It's that this,

01:16:38   the this case and people's reactions to it, exposed it, it picked up the stone, and we can see the

01:16:47   ugly worms of resentment that are there built around the app store.

01:16:51   Ben: Yeah, there's there's two sides to that, I think, because like, you see some developers

01:16:55   push back on that, as well, like, they're never a Unimind. And it's not just a monoculture.

01:17:00   So you see some people saying, sideloading would be great. Others saying it's going to increase

01:17:04   piracy. You see some people saying 30% is ridiculous. Others say, well, yes, but I used

01:17:09   to pay for all of this and all the different tax filings around the world. And so there is,

01:17:13   I don't think, I think by and large, the negative sentiment gets overreported, the positive sentiment

01:17:17   gets underreported. But I do think the biggest thing, my takeaway from this is that Apple has

01:17:22   not done a very good job in being proactive about this. And in the past that suited them well,

01:17:27   because it's been very slow regulation. The stuff that the EU does, things that the Department of

01:17:35   Justice does, it's all been very slow, but it seems like it's coming to a head. And now we've

01:17:40   got correct cases in Korea and Japan. And I forget which other country it was one of one of the

01:17:44   Eastern European countries, the US now as well. And these, they are not tech savvy, you only have

01:17:51   to look at the cookie regulations, the privacy, GDPR regulations, they are onerous to the point

01:17:57   of being destructive to the people that they're pretending to protect. And I think it would be

01:18:02   sad if Apple wasn't proactive enough in terms of getting ahead of these issues that they left it

01:18:07   up to being, like, again, I go back to the browser ballot, they forced Microsoft to protect browsers,

01:18:14   they forced Microsoft to put this ballot up so that Fenris and Slepnir wouldn't be overwhelmed

01:18:18   by the market. And the result is everything is chromium now. So I just, I don't want to leave

01:18:24   it to these people. So I wish Apple would be more proactive about it. I agree. Let's take a break

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01:20:35   All right. Moving on. June WWDC. What do we talk about for WWDC? I guess we talk about the event.

01:20:44   The virtual stuff was better this year. I thought they did a better job in emulating the lab

01:20:48   experience and providing a much better connection point for developers.

01:20:52   Yeah. I'm starting to get down though, because I'm starting to think maybe it's not going to happen

01:20:58   again this year. I mean, who knows? It's very hard to predict, but they're obviously going to have to

01:21:04   make a decision long before June. Yeah. Especially because it's not on campus. They have to actually

01:21:11   get facilities for it. Yeah. And I do think, I don't think it is the fact that you and I

01:21:20   are Apple-centric in our coverage of the industry. I almost think it's objective, not subjective,

01:21:30   that Apple has done a better job with these virtual-only product announcement events than

01:21:35   anybody else. And the recent Facebook one where they changed the name to Meta was certainly higher

01:21:43   level than just about anything else I've seen outside of Apple. But there was sort of…

01:21:48   Animatronic Mark Zuckerberg was almost lifelike, even in the real world.

01:21:53   Well, and they obviously spent a lot on some kind of, I presume, green screen sort of environments

01:21:59   that he was walking around in. It was so odd though, because the big joke is that he's data

01:22:04   from Star Trek. And the first thing he did was walk into like pale blue lighting where he looked

01:22:08   completely robotic. Which must have been self-referential. It was a good show. Apple's very

01:22:16   good at this. I've always thought that this, you can tell it most clearly to me with like a daily

01:22:22   comic strip. It's always so interesting to me, has been since I was a little kid. And the one I

01:22:29   remember was finding out my elementary school library had, I don't know if it was the complete

01:22:35   Peanuts library, but they had dozens and dozens of Charles Schulz's Peanuts books dating back to the

01:22:44   early days in like the, I think the late 1950s. And I always loved that. It was one of my favorite

01:22:50   comic strips. And I remember when I read the early ones, it was like my little emoji head,

01:22:57   little poof, a smoke came off my head. It was like, "Whoa, all the characters look different.

01:23:02   This looks so weird." And every single comic strip starts like that. Even, you know, I think what

01:23:10   most people would consider the best comic strip of all time, Calvin and Hobbes, the very early ones

01:23:15   look slightly different. - [Lyle] Bloom County and Garfield too.

01:23:18   - [Peter] Bloom County, Garfield, Doonesbury, the early Doonesbury's look so different.

01:23:24   And the way it goes is they, you know, the artist sort of is working out their personal style and

01:23:30   the characters look, and then they sort of, then they hone in on this is it. And then like for

01:23:37   Peanuts… - [Lyle] They find their

01:23:38   illustrative voice. - [Peter] Right. And Peanuts

01:23:40   and Doonesbury are good examples that have run for decades. And like, you know, like late '80s,

01:23:49   Doonesbury doesn't really look much different than Doonesbury today, but '70s Doonesbury looks crazy.

01:23:55   TV shows are like that too. But the first season of Seinfeld is very, very weird in hindsight.

01:24:03   And where I'm going with this is that Apple sort of carved out there, this is what our

01:24:10   remote shows, virtual shows are going to look and feel like very early, and they've stuck to it.

01:24:18   I think they've gotten better at it, but there's not like, I think if you went back, I guess the

01:24:23   first one would be last 2020s WWDC. I think if you rewatched it, and I, you know, you and I,

01:24:32   I know you probably more than me because you're always fishing for B-roll, right? Right? So you've

01:24:39   probably actually watched it. You've probably watched it more than me. - [Lyle] I watched it

01:24:43   today. - But they kind of defined a style and a look and right from the get-go, really,

01:24:52   really distinctive, has a voice, has a character. It really is a show.

01:24:57   - The only thing they've done is added, like continued to add more and more locations,

01:25:01   including now all of California. - Right, right.

01:25:04   - But it's the same like drone shots, crane moves, zips. And what's funny is you looked

01:25:09   at the early other companies trying to figure this out, and they mostly, they tried to just

01:25:13   film the stage. They did a stage show with no audience and filmed it, or they had people

01:25:16   reading off teleprompters very awkwardly. But then about a year in, they just, oh,

01:25:21   Apple taught us how to do this. - Yeah. Well, and one of the things there's,

01:25:25   you know, you don't have to notice, you don't have to know this, but it's like,

01:25:28   regular iPhones are bright and well-lit, if not outdoors, like Kayan Drance on stage.

01:25:37   - Yeah, Jeff Williams going for a hike. - Yeah, Jeff Williams going for a hike.

01:25:41   And Pro is in the dark, you know, like, so 2020, Jaws, he wasn't outdoors, but he was in a dark

01:25:50   room with a spotlight talking about the iPhone 12 Pro. And then this year he was outside Apple

01:25:59   Park at night, though, you know, like, I think inside- - That's a really canny observation,

01:26:04   because Pro apps always had the dark interfaces too.

01:26:06   - Yeah, Pro is dark or night. And I think even last year when Jaws was inside on some sort of

01:26:14   sound stage to do the announcement, they did, when they did the transition where they show,

01:26:19   you know, they do some kind of drone, whether it's actual drone footage, I think usually it is,

01:26:25   or some kind of 3D visual effect. It is nighttime though. They established that it is nighttime at

01:26:34   Apple Park. And now here's Jaws to talk about the iPhone, whatever Pro. Yeah, Pro is dark, regular

01:26:41   is bright and sunny. - I love that attention to detail because it permeates everything from the

01:26:45   hardware to the software to the event. - Yeah, yeah. Was this the year where

01:26:48   Federighi was in the red convertible? - Yes, in the WDC.

01:26:53   - Yeah, that was a good gag. - Yeah, yeah.

01:26:56   - I don't really have much to add. I think you're right. And from what I've heard that they did a

01:27:00   better job with preparation for the labs and say what you want about Apple's developer relations.

01:27:07   And we mentioned the consternation over the App Store, et cetera. They really do want to knock

01:27:12   it out of the park with the labs during WWDC. I mean, it's, you know, from the top down, including

01:27:18   right down to the people responsible for the frameworks who actually run these labs and you

01:27:22   get to ask questions. It is something they want to do a good job of and really needed to be invented

01:27:29   compared to in-person WWDC. - And their evangelist, I mean,

01:27:33   other companies similar to Apple have hundreds of evangelists. Apple still has a very tiny evangelist

01:27:39   team and they do amazing, amazing work every WWDC. - Yeah, yeah, they really do. And they want to.

01:27:46   - They gave Serenity a choice of hats on the YouTube videos this year, which I thought was nice.

01:27:49   Serenity was on the talk show and now she's on Apple's YouTube channel. John,

01:27:55   that's quite the journey. - I know. I hear her narrating

01:28:01   those daily updates for WWDC and I'm like, "God damn, I miss having her on the show."

01:28:06   - I know, same, same. - Because she was very good too. And no offense to you,

01:28:11   but she was very, very good because she speaks faster than I do. She was very good at keeping me

01:28:16   to up my pace, you know? - Yes, yeah. Microsoft stole Christina,

01:28:20   Apple stole Serenity. We have no fast talkers left. - I guess now, June, July, there wasn't really any

01:28:27   news in July. Might as well just, let's just use up July to talk about the great 2021 Safari tab saga.

01:28:35   - Yes. Oh, yeah. I feel like we've talked about this the entire way through.

01:28:39   - All's well that ends well, maybe? - Yes. The process concerns me. The fact

01:28:46   that it happened concerns me. The fact that they fixed it makes me feel good.

01:28:49   - Yeah. You know, the best thing to do is not to make a mistake, but the second best thing to do

01:28:55   is recognize mistakes and correct them even if it means backing completely out. The Safari tabs thing,

01:29:02   it is alarming because I still don't really get how anybody thought it should have, the designs

01:29:09   that were unveiled at WWDC should have shipped on either platform. And the platform, the UI critiques

01:29:16   which I wrote about at length on Daring Fireball. I know you talked about it.

01:29:20   - You and I did a couple of videos on it too. It was great.

01:29:22   - We did videos about it. So we don't have to rehash what the problems with those designs were

01:29:28   specifically. To me, it's worrisome that they shipped. And I don't want to blame it on remote

01:29:34   work and COVID and that if they'd been in person, that this would have been more successfully,

01:29:41   the right side of the argument would have won out in person. I don't know that that's true.

01:29:45   It's possible. I don't know. It could just be purely coincidental that this bad design

01:29:51   was announced in a year and after a year of no in-person collaboration. I don't know. But

01:30:00   whoever it was, whatever people were pushing for that design, it's very questionable whether they

01:30:07   should be in the positions where they are, in my opinion. - Well, it's a fake simplicity. It's

01:30:13   a scarcity in place of actual simplicity. It's making complexity just to have fewer things,

01:30:18   which is like an inverse of the principle. But the weirdest thing to me was watching it go public.

01:30:24   And the public never even got the worst versions of those. That was saved for the betas. But

01:30:29   watching it go public and seeing celebrities interact about it on Twitter, like seeing a

01:30:34   celebrity go, "What the fuck happened to my safari bar? Where is it?" And then another

01:30:38   celebrity going, "Oh, they moved it to the bottom." And then a bunch of people say, "No,

01:30:40   no, no. You can move it back." And then this whole discussion around what the hell did Apple

01:30:44   do to their browser. - It was one of the first things. There's another one where I'll drag my

01:30:50   wife into it where when she first turned on her iPhone 13 Pro and hadn't been following along

01:30:58   and completed the upgrade and there it is, now here's all your stuff. And she just turned to me

01:31:04   with safari. And she was like, "What the hell is going on with safari?" And I hadn't said to

01:31:10   her, "Hey, wait until you get a load of safari." It's very strange in my opinion.

01:31:16   - Did you revert to the top? Did you use the setting to put the safari search bar back?

01:31:20   - Yeah. - I haven't. I've kept it at the bottom. And it still feels weird to me,

01:31:24   even though it's like half a year later. - See, but that's... And I saw some people...

01:31:29   I think I wrote about this. I hope I did. I saw some people mention that it's weird and shows that

01:31:35   maybe Apple's losing its touch because they don't offer options like that. Apple just says, "Here's

01:31:40   the way it is." And so offering you the option to have it at the top or bottom is un-Apple-like.

01:31:44   And I would say the opposite. I would say where putting it at the top or bottom offers you the

01:31:50   same functionality and the same set of buttons, it's just you want it at the top or bottom,

01:31:55   is very Apple-like, right? And it really goes back to Mac OS X 10.0 in 2002, 2001. When the hell was

01:32:06   that? 2002, whenever it was. Or even going back earlier to next step before Mac OS X or Mac OS

01:32:14   IX had lots of options to move some things around. You can move the control strip to wherever the

01:32:18   hell you wanted it. Some of those... In a way that in AppKit Mac apps, there's any true Mac style Mac

01:32:27   app has the ability to completely customize the toolbar, right? And put whatever, all sorts of

01:32:33   options. And the more rich the app, the more configurable it is that you can do this.

01:32:38   Configuration options for stuff like that is very Apple-like. It was the two totally different

01:32:47   theories of what a tab is that was un-Apple-like, right?

01:32:51   **Beserat Debebe:** Yes.

01:33:02   **Beserat Debebe:** And nobody was complaining about tabs. It really felt like something that

01:33:17   Apple has long said repeatedly in many times. They don't really talk too much in detail about what

01:33:23   they're thinking, but they do... It comes across as anodyne when you're familiar with them and

01:33:29   their statements, like the recent wallpaper feature of Evans Hanke and Alan Dye's design team.

01:33:36   You could read that and if you're in tune to Apple like we are and lots of people who listen to this

01:33:42   show are, you could read that and say, "Well, I didn't really learn anything. Everything they

01:33:46   said in there, I sort of already knew." I certainly thought that personally, and I was way more

01:33:52   interested in the photographs because that was unprecedented and really kind of neat. I mentioned

01:33:57   on Daring Fireball how neat it was to see the actual personal iPhones of the people on the

01:34:03   design team, a dozen of them who were in a meeting and how many of them used cases, how many of them

01:34:09   had the wallet attachment, which was really surprising to me. And I actually spoke to someone

01:34:14   who's familiar with the situation and said, "Yeah, actually the wallet really is pretty popular with

01:34:19   that team." And somebody who verified, "Yeah, that was actually their real notebooks and personal

01:34:26   iPhones that wasn't staged." I mean, they were obviously aware a photographer was in the room,

01:34:29   but I thought that was pretty neat. But the Safari thing, I don't know. And there is something,

01:34:37   I get wanting, having the itch for new, right? And that new excites a certain part of your,

01:34:47   new and changed and different releases, endorphins from a certain part of your brain.

01:34:54   And I know that when I was younger, that part of my brain was way more active than it is now that

01:35:01   I'm older. And that's why, like in the nineties, I was totally all in on utilities for the classic

01:35:09   Mac OS that let you completely reskin the whole OS. There was the iron extension. There was one

01:35:16   from the same Greg Landweber that made it look like the BOS where you had those yellow

01:35:22   folder tab style windows. And then there was, I forget what it was called, where you had all,

01:35:28   you know, just an unlimited number of themes you could download and just completely reskin the

01:35:32   whole OS. Oh, I was into that. And I customized my icons and customized everything that you could

01:35:38   customize and thought it was cool. And people, you know, younger people, I think especially,

01:35:43   are doing that now on iOS with the weird, not weird, but sort of convoluted compared to how

01:35:50   easy it could be in theory, if you could just install like an icon pack, but, you know,

01:35:56   using shortcuts to open apps and then you can put a custom icon on the shortcut. So therefore,

01:36:01   effectively, it's like giving the app a custom icon. I totally get it. And I think that where

01:36:07   I'm going is that I think the people who claim to like the new Safari designs exactly as Apple showed

01:36:15   them in June. And I, you know, I certainly given how much time I spent writing about Safari on both

01:36:21   iOS and Mac, I heard from them. But, and I honestly, you know, tried to give it as open

01:36:27   mind as I could. But all I could really hear when I really thought about it is I like this because

01:36:32   it's new and novel. And… Jared: Yeah, or aesthetic. Like there were some people who just like,

01:36:36   looked clean. It didn't matter how it worked, but it looked clean.

01:36:39   Steven: It looked clean. It was sort of a, I like this and it is sort of a design is how it looks

01:36:45   mentality. But I think it's really, really telling now that they actually more or less

01:36:52   reverted Safari's tabs on both platforms to exactly how they were before. They're not

01:36:58   complaining. Right? And you can get the condensed look on the Mac if you really want it. It's in

01:37:05   there in preferences. You just don't hear anybody talking about it though. The people who defended

01:37:10   it, defended it in my opinion. And in hindsight, it shows in a very shallow way. Whereas those of

01:37:17   us who really criticized it were criticizing it in a very deep way. Jared And see, I don't mind

01:37:22   if Apple experiments because like, I always go back to the 2015 MacBook. It gave us both the

01:37:28   Force Touch trackpad and the butterfly keyboard. Butterfly keyboard was bad. Force Touch trackpad

01:37:33   was terrific. Apple tried both. It's the speed of recovery that really matters to me.

01:37:37   Steven Right. And I do think that part of that delay in that era was that Apple was sort of

01:37:43   internally on the Mac. And I think, you know, the Mac is the one that suffered the longest on a

01:37:48   couple of products, you know, bad keyboards on all the MacBooks and non-retina MacBook Air for way

01:37:56   too long. I really think that they were caught between knowing that they were going to move away

01:38:01   from Intel, but not really being sure what, when the trigger could be pulled. And wanting to save

01:38:09   good stuff for the post Apple Silicon era. Anyway, all's well that ends well Safari tabs.

01:38:17   Sanity did prevail, thankfully. It is, was very strange and felt like way too close of a call.

01:38:24   Because I really don't know if they would have shipped it as they intended early in the summer.

01:38:29   I really think I would switch to another browser and I don't know what browser that would be.

01:38:34   Steven Yeah, same. Because I like I gave it a shot. I used it as was for the entire beta period.

01:38:42   And I was still making mistakes every day. And I shouldn't even have to think about how my

01:38:46   browser works. Yeah, it's the end they've done. It's just so it must be so frustrating for some

01:38:51   people inside Apple, because they've done such a good job, especially on the phone of designing

01:38:57   one of the best iOS apps on the platform period Safari and, and again, not even getting into any

01:39:07   of the political arguments about Apple's refusal to allow alternate rendering engines, which is a

01:39:13   web platform thing we won't get into. But just as a user interface, it's just really, really good and

01:39:19   useful. And it's an amazing team, like the Webkin Safari team is one of the best teams in the world,

01:39:24   not even at Apple, but one of the best teams in the world, right? In two different ways, right?

01:39:27   Like the team making, you know, the actual underlying rendering engine and JavaScript

01:39:31   engine and doing it in a secure way and is doing great work and the user interface,

01:39:38   no matter what the engine was, is rendering the actual content, you know, does a great job. And it

01:39:44   was all just sort of thrown away for something that somebody thought looked cool and cleaner,

01:39:49   some and certainly looked cleaner and more minimal. Yeah, very strange. All right, moving on,

01:39:55   we've got August, the only thing I have for August was that, that that's when Apple announced their

01:40:00   child safety initiatives. Yeah. Which, you know, it's interesting to me, because like this,

01:40:06   this shows the dichotomy of Apple sometimes, because this and I'm blanking on what the other

01:40:10   one was, but there's, there are several times where Apple puts together what is objectively

01:40:16   like a completely solid engineering solution. Like if you're going to design something that

01:40:22   has to achieve these goals, this is the best way to engineer it. But there is a complete disconnect

01:40:28   from how emotionally people are going to react to it because we're not entirely rational

01:40:32   engineering people. Right. And they got, I think they, you know, it's safe to say they got more

01:40:38   pushback than they were probably expecting. And a lot of it, most of it, you know, some of it is

01:40:45   philosophical and I get it, which is, hey, this is my device and nothing should be going on, on my

01:40:53   device, on device that is going to wind up reporting me to the authorities. You know, I get…

01:41:00   Nothing should be exfiltrated without my permission. I get that. I do, except that they

01:41:06   were only wanting to do this, that the CSAM fingerprinting against the known database from

01:41:15   the national child safety, whatever the organization is. If you're using iCloud photos for sync. So,

01:41:23   yeah, I get it that it's on device. I'm sympathetic to that argument, but it wasn't like

01:41:29   everybody who uses iOS 15 is going to have this happen, whether you use it or not. It's just sort

01:41:35   of like the agreement of using our photo sync service and cloud-based storage is that you're

01:41:43   going, your image, the images are going to be matched, the fingerprints of those images are

01:41:47   going to be matched against this known database. And if you are uncomfortable with that or don't

01:41:52   like it, then you know, you should opt out of iCloud photos. I think the difference was because

01:41:57   like everybody does this and that's a horrible thing to say, but everybody does do this, but like

01:42:00   Google and Facebook and they all do it on the cloud. So if you turn them off, it's completely

01:42:05   gone where when you turn apples off, the code is still there. It's inert, but the code is still

01:42:09   there. And I think on a philosophical level, it was a privacy solution, but it defended people

01:42:14   on a sanctity level. Right. That's a good way to put it. Right. And if you close your eyes and

01:42:18   didn't know which where, where the matching against the fingerprints was going on, you wouldn't be able

01:42:24   to tell whether iCloud, you know, Apple solution is doing the fingerprinting matching on device

01:42:31   and Google and Facebook and others are doing it on the server side. The end results should be the same

01:42:39   it, you know, I get the philosophical aspect of it.

01:42:42   My hope, and like, I don't know if they'll do it, but my hope is just to satisfy both,

01:42:46   take like that private relay implementation, have the stuff put onto a separate private server,

01:42:52   have it checked there and then move to Apple. That way it's not happening on your device. That way,

01:42:56   Apple still has zero knowledge. And then hopefully everyone can go back to living in peace and harmony.

01:43:00   Yeah. I don't think that's going to, I don't think it's going to work though. Cause I really,

01:43:03   and again, I have no inside knowledge of this and I probably among all the teams at Apple,

01:43:09   the security team is almost certainly one of the tightest lipped, you know, so it's not going to

01:43:14   leak even through a little birdie, but just looking at what Apple wants to happen in the direction of

01:43:21   things going, I still think that this whole thing is sort of being motivated by a desire to move

01:43:29   eventually all of iCloud to end to end encryption. And in that case, some sort of middleman server,

01:43:36   would it wouldn't be possible to have the fingerprinting done there? The most obvious,

01:43:40   well, you would layer the whole technical thing, but I think you would layer the,

01:43:42   you would layer levels of encryption the same way they do for private relay.

01:43:46   Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. Like when you look at the legacy contacts, the retrieval,

01:43:52   cause some of the problems, the problem Apple faced initially with iCloud was that most people

01:43:58   losing data is way more common than having data stolen. And people were locking themselves out

01:44:02   of all this early two factor authentication stuff. It was one of Apple's biggest support problems.

01:44:06   People would just lose their keys and Apple couldn't help you recover. And that is not a

01:44:10   good enough answer. So they had to make it so that your backups were fail safe instead of fail secure.

01:44:15   But that means that they're subject to subpoena. So now Apple is setting up, like you said,

01:44:19   these things where they don't have to worry about actionable material. You can get like,

01:44:25   you can assign a contact so that if you lose access to it, Apple can still send something

01:44:29   to somebody else. Doesn't have to be them who has access to it. And then they can start locking down

01:44:33   the rest of the backups. Right. I, and I really do think that that's where they're going. And I

01:44:38   really, I know you and I have talked about this, you know, but it re you and I both have sources

01:44:44   who work in Apple retail who very, you know, it's nonstop over the years that is a constant problem

01:44:49   of people who forget their password. Can't get their stuff, their phone, you know, they left it

01:44:54   in a cab and now it's gone. And that's where all their photos were, but they don't know their

01:44:58   I got a dummy thing. I locked myself out of Dropbox when they first set up 2FA. It's,

01:45:02   and being able to say, I trust this other person or these two people completely, I trust them.

01:45:10   That's how much I trust them, you know, like a spouse type situation. Or if for an older person,

01:45:16   like my parents that they trust me, they could list both me and my sister, you know, as, as

01:45:21   trusted people who could help them do this. And then it ties in with the legacy contact thing too,

01:45:26   for, you know, when they die. But I do think that that's where Apple's going. And I kind of feel

01:45:33   like what they regret is not having had the foresight way back when to engineer iCloud,

01:45:41   if they could do it all over again, I'm, I'm quite sure of it, that they would engineer iCloud to do

01:45:47   everything other than email and end encrypted all along. And email being the exception, because

01:45:53   that's the nature of the IMAP and SMTP protocols is that it can't be end to end encrypted.

01:45:59   Jared: And PGP is onerous on a user.

01:46:01   Pete: Yeah, well, that's, and it's still the protocol isn't end to end encrypted, right? Like,

01:46:05   you can use something like PGP to get strong encryption for your email, but stuff like the

01:46:11   email headers, even with PGP, the email headers aren't, you know, the subject line is still out

01:46:16   there in the open, the recipients are still out there in the open. It's just the nature of email.

01:46:21   So, you know, this is not even get into it, this is put an asterisk next to email. But I know this

01:46:26   for a fact, having spoken to multiple people who were involved with it, that I message that was

01:46:30   part of the, you know, like day one, let's build our own messaging thing to sort of replace SMS,

01:46:36   day one on the whiteboard, end to end encryption for everything. Let's, let's engineer this in a

01:46:43   way so that if law enforcement says we would like to have this, we can't get it. We can't, we can

01:46:48   just say we can't give it to you. Right now, and that is true for iMessage, the big escape hatch

01:46:54   right now is iCloud backup, because iCloud backup is not end to end encrypted. And so, like when the

01:47:01   FBI goes to Apple with a warrant and says we would like so and so's, you know, iMessages for this

01:47:09   warrant and here are the reasons and Apple looks at the warrant and says, okay, that's good. They,

01:47:14   they give them, they can give them and have to now because of the warrant, their iCloud backup and

01:47:18   the iCloud backup contains their iMessages. So, it's not that the FBI has access to iMessage,

01:47:24   they can't, it's end to end encrypted, but iCloud backup, which contains iMessage content, isn't,

01:47:31   I think they would like it to be. And I think…

01:47:32   Jared: And you can turn it off, but again, for most people, they care more about losing their

01:47:36   messages than they do about getting them subpoenaed.

01:47:38   David: Right. And this is one of those things that Apple is so good at having their eye on the long

01:47:42   game, you know, and Apple Pay is a perfect example of this where there is no way Apple Pay was going

01:47:47   to be an overnight success. It just, it's just not the way things work, right? But it's a slow,

01:47:53   steady, incremental, more and more places accept it, more and more people will get comfortable

01:47:58   using it. There, it's a long game. The, moving all of iCloud to end in encryption, if that's really

01:48:04   their plan, and I really hope it is, is like a 10-year thing because you've got to wait,

01:48:08   you know, all right, I'm an early adopter. Let's say they do it for iOS 16 next year. I don't know,

01:48:15   that's to say optimistically. And I upgrade to iOS 16 right away. Well, anybody who I'm sending

01:48:20   iMessages to who's still on iOS 15 and is still backing up their stuff that way is still using

01:48:26   the iOS 15 iCloud backups. You've got to wait for everybody to get to the new thing so that everybody,

01:48:34   including the people you're sending stuff to, I think that's where they're going.

01:48:37   There's an optimistic scenario where if, let's say you're not really,

01:48:42   you don't like this fingerprinting CSAM thing. You don't want Apple to do it.

01:48:47   There's an optimistic scenario where maybe right now, because I think it's mostly political,

01:48:52   and I know people hate politics, but I think it's about political cover where they can say,

01:49:00   let's say they move iCloud photos to end-to-end encryption and law enforcement and politicians

01:49:06   say, well, this is going to be a haven for child pornography and people who spread it.

01:49:11   And this, you know, it's insidious, it's more widespread, you know, it is a serious problem.

01:49:17   It's a serious problem around the world. That and terrorism or whatever, everyone brings up all the

01:49:20   time. Right. But the CSAMs and Apple could say with the fingerprinting thing, well, here's what

01:49:25   we're doing about it. We're checking all these things before we do it. If it had gone without

01:49:30   any protest at all, and they hadn't delayed it, whatever. That's, I think that's why they're

01:49:35   doing is for political cover to allow end-to-end encryption for the overwhelming majority of users

01:49:42   who are, have no involvement with CSAM material at all. The current state though is maybe, you know,

01:49:49   not so bad where they're, you know, and I know that they updated their child safety webpage

01:49:55   last week or the week before to remove mention of that, of the fingerprinting stuff and only talk

01:50:02   about the stuff that's actually shipping now in iOS 15.2 or .1? Where are we up to? I forget. I

01:50:09   don't even know the… 15.3. Are we up to… I'm on the beta. Well, whatever. I'm on the head.

01:50:14   But the other features, the one like for opt-in feature for kids in an iCloud family account to

01:50:21   have the parents turn on a thing to let the kid get warned if they are sending or receiving

01:50:26   messages that machine learning identifies as being sexually inappropriate. They adapted that to

01:50:34   complaints very, in a very good way where they took off the feature that would, you know, that

01:50:39   would optionally allow parents to be notified whenever it happens instead. It's all about the

01:50:44   kids for their safety because they might be in a dangerous situation at home. It's opt-in

01:50:51   nobody gets it turned on by default for their kids. But if you're worried about it and you

01:50:56   want the feature, you can turn it on for your kids. I think it's a good feature.

01:50:58   The other feature that they updated and released and I think was completely uncontroversial

01:51:05   was updating Siri's ability to help you if you're having some, you know, different types of

01:51:12   crises. Like if you're, feel like you're being abused and need help and that sort of thing and

01:51:19   give you contact information, you know, don't try to get your help from Siri, but Siri will

01:51:24   tell you here, contact this organization and they'll get you help. Uncontroversial, that's

01:51:29   shipped. And that's… And I'm just spitballing, sorry. Well, that's what, that's the, it's a

01:51:34   very Apple-like thing to do, to update the page to talk about here's what's shipping and not talk

01:51:38   about what might still be coming. But when the press, people in the media asked, they did not

01:51:43   say we've abandoned that. It's just in limbo. No, and they're a very, like, again, they're a

01:51:50   very focused company and their job is to solve these problems. And I'm just spitballing here

01:51:55   because you have anything that you can think of on a podcast or a YouTube video, Apple's had the

01:52:00   money and time to prototype, but there could also be like, just to a sway, I'm trying to think about

01:52:04   what people's complaints are and to assuage them. It could be that there's a regular version of

01:52:09   photos and an online version of photos. And if you opt into iCloud photos, it downloads the

01:52:13   online version. If you opt out, it downloads the regular version. And then you don't have that

01:52:16   code on your, if having that code on your device is a problem for you and you worry about it being

01:52:21   abused or any of a number of things, you have like the inert version or you have the active version.

01:52:26   And then there's nothing really to complain about because you're having the choice there.

01:52:29   Yeah. Anyway, my hope is that maybe by running this CSAM fingerprinting up the flagpole,

01:52:36   having it shot down by some advocates for various reasons and saying, okay, well,

01:52:44   back to the, we're, we're going back to the drawing board with it, but we've thought about it.

01:52:48   It might give them cover cause it's neither canceled nor shipping.

01:52:53   Yes. And it's Schrodinger's feature.

01:52:55   Right. It's a Schrodinger feature and it could stay there for a while, you know, until people,

01:53:00   it just, you know, maybe end to end encryption for photos ships and, you know, anybody who says,

01:53:06   hey, but what about a CSAM material? Apple can say, you know, we've told you, you know,

01:53:10   what's on the drawing board, but we're still working on it.

01:53:13   We're soliciting feedback.

01:53:14   Yeah. We're soliciting feedback and maybe they just solicit feedback indefinitely.

01:53:18   Yeah.

01:53:19   Right. But that they tried, right. And they could say, look, they're, you know,

01:53:22   op-eds even in the New York Times from esteemed people whose feedback we value and we're still

01:53:28   considering it. And maybe, you know, because it's neither canceled nor shipping, it can sort of stay

01:53:33   in that state forever and serve their needs politically while also not triggering anything

01:53:41   that actual privacy advocates and people concerned about the feature being abused or being buggy or

01:53:48   whatever their concerns are, you know, placate them as well. So let's see.

01:53:51   And I don't want to derail us, but Apple is also navigating a climate where you have a lot of

01:53:55   countries, not just China demanding data repatriation, not wanting their citizens' data

01:53:59   stored on US or other servers. You have a bunch of countries, including Australia trying to

01:54:03   propose laws against encryption, just trying to make everything open. So Apple has to navigate

01:54:08   all those things at the same time.

01:54:09   Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's the, it probably will never stop, but the politician's wish is for a

01:54:16   magical form of encryption that has a key for good guys that won't work for bad guys.

01:54:23   It'll burn the hands of bad guys that try to touch it.

01:54:25   All right. On to September and Apple is back at it big month. Their big annual event went off

01:54:32   and they announced all of the iPhones 13, the new iPad mini iOS 15 and watch OS 8 shipped

01:54:40   and Kevin Lynch takes over Titan OS.

01:54:43   Yeah.

01:54:45   Let's start with the Lynch thing. The Lynch thing is interesting because, and I've mentioned this

01:54:52   a couple of times in recent weeks, but there's a big difference. You know, Apple's supposed

01:54:58   to upcoming new platforms are, well, maybe three, but there's AR and VR, which are very different

01:55:05   things. If you really think about, you know, VR where it's goggles that obstruct your view,

01:55:11   if they're off, you know, and there's rumors that they're going to have cameras so you could see

01:55:15   through, but that's, that's not the same as actually seeing as opposed to mixed reality.

01:55:20   Right. As opposed to plans to make actual regular eyeglasses that you see through with, you know,

01:55:25   possibly corrective lenses, if you need them, that would project, you know, or some sort of user

01:55:31   interface in your field of vision. But let's just say, I can describe it like for people who aren't

01:55:37   sure what all it means is like, think of the Apple VR headset as a personal Apple TV, where it's

01:55:41   really immersive and you have the same like Apple fitness, TV shows, video games, all like all that

01:55:47   kind of content, music concerts, and then think of the glasses, like an Apple watch that's on your

01:55:52   face instead of your wrist. And it's all about convenient notifications layered on top of reality.

01:55:56   Right. That's a good way to put it. But let's say that's one product, AR/VR, and then there's

01:56:01   Titan OS, the autonomous car slash whatever else might be autonomous. Titan has been through,

01:56:08   has been tumultuous. And that's just what we know on the outside. Lord only knows what people on the

01:56:13   inside have seen, but just knowing what we've known from the outside, you know, we've, you know,

01:56:18   so-and-so's running it. They're gone. Let's bring Bob Mansfield back and, you know,

01:56:24   Jared: We cheer to Mansfield, to Giannandrea.

01:56:26   Pete: And on the software side now, Kevin Lynch is in charge as of September. And

01:56:34   I think that there's a couple of aspects to this. Number one, he's done a terrific job with watch

01:56:41   OS. Watch OS has been regular. It has been improved steadily, but I also think it's a sign

01:56:49   of, you know, watch OS is mature, right? I'm not saying that it's done, you know, in the same way

01:56:55   the Mac, which started in 1984 is not done and is still having new releases and there's new features,

01:57:01   but it's, it is cemented as what it is. Right. And it's incremental here, henceforth. Right. And if

01:57:10   Kevin Lynch has proven himself to be a successful manager and executive of a nascent platform that

01:57:21   is completely liquid and isn't cemented yet and really needs to be bootstrapped from nothing to a

01:57:29   shipping project, it seems like that's, this is the time for him to move because, well,

01:57:34   Jared; It's so interesting too, because like, I don't know if it's a one-to-one thing, but

01:57:37   the previous big hire at Titan was Dan Dodge, who was CEO of QNX, which was like a real-time

01:57:43   operating system. And that seemed very like foundational to what this had to be, where Kevin's

01:57:49   got this amazing talent for taking incredibly complicated things like health technologies,

01:57:53   fitness technologies, communication technologies, and making them incredibly easy to understand and

01:57:58   glance at in like a watch in very small amounts of time. And that seems like a much higher level,

01:58:03   much more human part of the software experience. Yeah. And it's a, you know, it's a famous Steve

01:58:08   Jobs axiom, but real artists ship. And Kevin Lynch during his stint at Apple so far has proven

01:58:15   himself to be a real artist in that regard. And Titan seemingly could use a little bit of that.

01:58:22   So I tend to think that it is, you know, and I know that ostensibly, WatchOS is still under

01:58:32   Lynch's in the hierarchy too. But I can't help but think that it's not a 50/50 thing for his attention.

01:58:38   You know, that… Well, Evan Dahl took over the health component. He has a little bit less on

01:58:42   his plate, but they're all over, over. Their plates are all very full. Right. Which is not

01:58:46   a minor part of the watch software efforts. Right. It's a major, major part. So I think that's

01:58:53   interesting. iPhone's 13, iPad mini. iPad mini, I don't have much to say. It's nice. I'm glad

01:58:59   it's still there. It's a fascinating product. Going back to what we were talking about with the

01:59:03   Mac, you know, the timeline for iPad mini updates has always been multi-year. It has never been even

01:59:11   close to an annual product. It's like, you know… No, it's, yeah, even less than the iPad Air.

01:59:15   Right. Not saying something. Right. It's like, you know, even if it's perfectly on time and

01:59:18   didn't miss, is shipped right on schedule, it's like an every three or four year thing.

01:59:23   It was April 2019 and then September 2021. Well, that's like two plus years.

01:59:29   Yeah. Two and a half years. I wouldn't be surprised if this one lasts more than two years,

01:59:33   honestly. What more do you want? It's great. The only controversial thing was that they moved the

01:59:36   display drivers to the side and that made it, when you looked in portrait orientation, you could see

01:59:40   the refresh rate scrolling more than you could on previous versions. Yeah, but people seem to have

01:59:45   piped down about that. I defer to my son whose eyes are both young and excellent and he's

01:59:53   very, very picky about frame rates and stuff like that. And even he was like, "Eh, I see it. Yeah,

02:00:01   but it's all right." You know, and you kind of have to do it on purpose. It is interesting

02:00:05   and it is true and it speaks to Apple's high standards for displays and scrolling and stuff

02:00:10   that none of their other products or very few of their products have anything even close to that

02:00:15   sort of… Well, if you put them under a high-speed camera, they all do it. That's the thing. That's

02:00:20   how displays work. It's just this one people could catch on faster. Right. And it was perceptible to

02:00:26   at least some people's naked eyes, but not mine. The iPhone's 13. I don't have a lot to say.

02:00:32   Tremendous battery life. Tremendous battery life. I will say that. I forgot to charge mine. And it's

02:00:36   on two. I was like, "Why is my iPhone at 30%?" And I realized I hadn't charged it in two days.

02:00:39   It really is true. And it's interesting. There was… I'll tie in a… What are we up to? The A15?

02:00:48   There was… I don't want to throw the guy under the bus and I forget his name, but somebody who's

02:00:52   a purported chip expert right after the keynote had a very widely circulated medium post saying

02:00:59   that Apple's run out of steam on silicon and the brain drain from employees who've left to other

02:01:06   companies. It's obviously… I mean, no surprise that Apple silicon engineers are in demand given

02:01:15   the tremendous success that they've had. But that now this is the year where it's caught up to them.

02:01:20   And now they've got flat performance year over year because they're not bright. Based on the

02:01:26   proof being that they didn't brag about year over year performance improvements and only brag during

02:01:32   the keynote about performance against their unnamed competitors on the Android side. But

02:01:37   turns out A15 is pretty much in line performance wise with the increases we've seen in previous

02:01:43   years. But even with that… It turns out when AnandTech gets their hands on it and does an

02:01:47   actual review. Right. But even with that, even with the fact that the CPU and the GPU

02:01:52   and the neural engine have all improved year over year at an impressive clip,

02:01:59   clearly the main thrust of the A15 was battery life improvement. I mean, it's the most dramatic

02:02:08   difference, right? And to me, just say this, and we can even move on is the fact that the iPhone

02:02:14   13 mini gets better battery life than the iPhone 12 regular. There you go.

02:02:23   Jared: The only thing I'd like to add is like, there was two things that bothered me. One was

02:02:27   the glee in which people jumped onto that, you know, narrative. Like even people in the Apple

02:02:32   community were like, "Haha, this is the end of the road for Apple," which was really a weird look

02:02:36   for me. But also, like when you actually look at the industry, Qualcomm just announced famously,

02:02:41   they have these junkets every year where they fly everybody to Hawaii and announce their processors

02:02:46   for the next year. Those processors still aren't great IP. Like compared to what Apple's doing,

02:02:50   they're still two years behind. And that's with the people from Nuvia that they say, like there

02:02:56   was no brain drain from Apple. That's a complete narrative fabrication. Some people left, but that's

02:03:00   a incredibly deep bench on Apple Silicon team. That didn't help Qualcomm. And they're still

02:03:05   saying, well, maybe they need to do more of it, like inject more of that. Like, it's not provable

02:03:10   either way. And that just makes the entire story that much more galling to me to begin with.

02:03:14   Pete: Yeah, it's always, you know, be careful. Be careful whenever you read an article that

02:03:21   is telling you what you want to hear. Right? You should always second, you know, take a step back.

02:03:26   Jared. Or look at the numbers. Like, I think what part of the bigger problem is that it's really

02:03:30   hard. Like I call it a benchmark LARP. But people are pretending to do benchmarks. It's really hard.

02:03:36   Like it takes the best expert that Anantech, a lot of incredible hand coding to get even the

02:03:41   surface level stuff that they admit that they get. And most people don't know what's hitting

02:03:45   an efficiency core versus a performance core. Like the efficiency cores are 30% faster this year.

02:03:50   And the performance cores are way more efficient. The graphics cores are phenomenally faster,

02:03:55   but people don't know when they're hitting a graphics core or a rendering engine. And they

02:03:59   just throw up these numbers as if they mean something and then everyone writes a bunch

02:04:03   of articles and it's suboptimal. That's my rant, Joe.

02:04:06   Pete: Another good year for the camera team. And I moved, I spent 2020 with my, for the first time

02:04:15   ever, did not buy a top of the line iPhone. I bought the iPhone 12 regular. And because,

02:04:21   you know, and I was correct, I probably wouldn't really need the camera much. And that what I was

02:04:25   missing was of course the 2X camera that the iPhone 12 Pro had. And I bought it mainly for

02:04:30   how the device felt. And, you know, again, it's that privilege of having them all to review and

02:04:35   spend time with and not just talk, you know, feel for five minutes while it's tethered to a table

02:04:41   in an Apple store. This year though, the camera stuff was overwhelming and I bought the 13 Pro.

02:04:47   I will say this several months in now of daily iPhone 13 in my pocket, my opinion on the hand

02:04:54   feel of these devices remains unchanged. I really don't like it. I don't like the feel of the

02:05:00   stainless steel band. I think that the buttons feel too sharp. I feel the steel band overall

02:05:06   is a little slippy and I do not like the frosted matte back because it is slippery. It is, has no

02:05:15   grip, no tack at all. I would pay extra to get an iPhone 13 Pro with the camera, with the aluminum

02:05:24   body and glossy glass back of the regular iPhone 13, which isn't sticky but has the tackiness,

02:05:32   like I've often said, of like a clean basketball court and that, you know, your fingers, you know,

02:05:38   grip it the way that sneakers, clean sneakers on a clean basketball court make the squeak,

02:05:43   you know, and you get traction. I find it. So, this is the first time in all the years of iPhone

02:05:49   where I use a case on a daily basis simply because I really, and I just tried it last week at like

02:05:56   Christmas, like let me try going caseless again, which I would like to do. I'm not even going

02:06:01   many places with the COVID stuff. I'm not like locked in, but I'm not going many places. I don't

02:06:06   need to protect it. I just find it unpleasant in my hand. I really do. It's my biggest disappointment

02:06:12   with it. And my biggest hope for next year is that the pros go to, you know, there's rumors they

02:06:18   might go to titanium. That would be great. I love the feel of titanium. But also that sandwich again,

02:06:23   like the iPhone 4, which would be nicer. Yeah. I find it looks better but feels worse. Like if

02:06:29   I just look at it, it looks phenomenal. The design, again, is one of those retro designs,

02:06:33   but it doesn't feel great. And the other issue I have is I love that they have this new ceramic

02:06:38   shield glass because I drop it all the time and it's never once broken or cracked on me. Like,

02:06:43   I drop it all the time. But the reason I drop it all the time is because it's so slippery. It

02:06:47   falls off everything. Like it's not Pixel 6 slippery. That falls off flat tables. I don't

02:06:52   know how it does it, but it does. This still falls off almost everything. And the way that

02:06:57   chemically treated glass and ceramics work is the better the shatter resistance, the worse the

02:07:04   scratch resistance because one is hardness and one is toughness. It's like, I'm going to get this

02:07:08   wrong, but it's like you can scratch a hammer with a diamond, but you can smash a diamond with a

02:07:11   hammer. And I would love if Apple would make a way tackier phone that didn't fall as much because then

02:07:17   they wouldn't need as much shatter resistance and they could increase the scratch resistance again

02:07:22   because I also scratch them all the time. Pete: Yeah. So, that's my big wish for 14 is,

02:07:26   yes, I would like to go caseless. I would like to be pleasant in my hand, which includes both

02:07:32   not feeling too sharp or glossy and having a back that, you know, my hands have some tack on to as

02:07:39   opposed to this crazy matte finish, which does look nice, but is for a flat surface, just not good,

02:07:49   in my opinion. I have one other beef and I know everyone's going to yell USB-C. I don't care.

02:07:53   USB-C is just a plug. I'm happy with lightning as a plug, but it's still USB two speeds. Like

02:07:59   the letters are the plug shape. The numbers are the data transfer rate. And we have ProRes video

02:08:04   on which is six gigs a minute. And I shoot ProRes video and I've got to use USB two speeds in 2021

02:08:10   to pull that off. And I can't believe Apple made a chip that is so good at recording every frame

02:08:15   of ProRes video, a storage controller that can record it all, but not an IO system that will let

02:08:20   me transfer it off even over like lightning 2.0 or whatever at USB three speeds or faster.

02:08:26   Pete: Yeah. I never shoot ProRes, but I add the same. I've mentioned this before, but

02:08:30   I do shoot 4k and I shoot the, and who knows if it'll be remote this year, but two years in a row,

02:08:36   my remote interview with Apple executives and we want to get it in editing as soon as possible and

02:08:43   getting 90 minutes of 4k footage off the phone is really, really bad. So again, let's talk,

02:08:52   it's not the technology, USB-C and stick it on the phone. It's let's solve the problem. The problem

02:08:59   is you've made these cameras that shoot incredibly great video, but that video is humongous,

02:09:06   including ProRes, which is super humongous. And you've made this thing, which is amazing.

02:09:13   Truly. It's amazing that you could shoot ProRes video on these things and it looks good.

02:09:18   Jared: It's like a Mac Pro from 2019 in my hands in 2021.

02:09:22   Pete But you've got to, you know, there's anybody who's shooting ProRes for a good reason,

02:09:28   as opposed to just stumbled into and wonders what the preference is. But if you're shooting

02:09:32   it for a good reason, you want to get it off the phone. All right. That's got to be high on the

02:09:38   list. They have to know this. They have to know this, hopefully. Well, there's that rumored like

02:09:42   80 gigabit per second wireless transfer speed, but have that land the same year as ProRes.

02:09:47   I would just appreciate that. What else? That's it for the hardware. Let's see.

02:09:51   Should we talk, I guess, iOS 15 and watch OS 8? I mean, we might as well, they shipped in September,

02:09:57   right? Jared: Yeah. Live text was the big highlight for me.

02:10:00   Pete Yeah, absolutely. It's really, and I, every once in a while, I run into a spot in a certain

02:10:06   app or something where it doesn't work and I'm like, what the hell, app name, you know, let's get

02:10:12   with the program. Jared But that video of the kids using their iPhone to steal the kids' notes in

02:10:15   front of them at school is just perfect. Pete Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. It's really terrific.

02:10:18   I don't really have much to say about iOS 15. It's a solid release. I think, I know Joanna had

02:10:26   in her newsletter, not her column recently, had a thing commenting about Apple's dot releases. And

02:10:32   she wasn't complaining about it, but just observing that the, you know, in recent years,

02:10:36   the new way of being an iPhone user is that throughout the year, you get software updates

02:10:42   and some of them introduce new features so that, you know, it's not just a once a year thing where

02:10:46   you figure out if you really want to stay on top and you've got to figure out where and how to use

02:10:52   new features throughout the year. I think that Apple has found its footing and its pace on this

02:10:59   and it is a very sustainable, both a schedule and a strategy and that they've sort of,

02:11:08   not that they've given up, ideally they'd like to have as many tent pole features that get announced

02:11:14   at WWDC ship in September in the dot O of the new big release as possible, but that they're

02:11:21   just completely rational about looking at the state of where these features are and letting

02:11:30   them ship when they are. And, you know, it's certainly an art form to look at those features

02:11:36   in May while they're planning WWDC and figure out, well, this definitely won't be available

02:11:44   in September, but we should be able to ship this in, you know, let's say February and being right

02:11:51   about it, you know, like they, you know, I don't think they've missed anything. I don't think

02:11:55   they've had like X is coming announced at WWDC and gone a whole calendar year without it.

02:12:02   No, like, usually, well, a couple of quick things. One is this has always happened, like,

02:12:07   but previously it was easier to digest because Steve would come out and announce the new iPod

02:12:11   touch and there'd be a couple updates associated with that, which would go into the point one.

02:12:15   And then he'd announce the iPad and there'd be a couple updates associated with that,

02:12:19   that would go into the dot two or dot three. So just, they never spoke about them until they

02:12:23   were ready to go into those point releases. But some really big things have gone into the point

02:12:27   releases all along. And the other thing is, I think it's just how Apple has been managing this.

02:12:33   Like the, they used to have bigger lists because there was so much more to do. Now the lists are a

02:12:38   little bit slower and you get to the point where you have things like universal control, which

02:12:41   isn't going to ship. And I think we ran into this with a HomePod too, is that there are fundamental

02:12:47   problems with core technologies that are just old, like the original AirPlay and Core Audio

02:12:51   turned out they couldn't handle the HomePod. So Apple had to go back and rewrite, make AirPlay 2,

02:12:56   redo a bunch of core technologies just to support the HomePod. And I think a lot of the stuff now is

02:13:01   they're going back and repaying technical debt and it's making shipping those features take longer

02:13:05   than they originally anticipated it would. I agree with that. I think that, I think they're on a

02:13:10   really good, they're, they're in a good place annual schedule wise on these features. I really

02:13:16   do think so. October, I'm ready to move on October. We actually got our hands on hardware, Apple Watch

02:13:21   Series 7. I don't have a lot to add. I'll put links in the show notes to my review and your

02:13:27   review on your YouTube channel. The weirdest thing was that flat edge design that leaked. That's

02:13:31   probably like next year's. I think you said SE, someone else said that's going to be the, the rest,

02:13:37   not the rustic model, the, the, the expedition model, the action model, right? The, the action

02:13:43   model. Yeah. Extreme model. And they just leaked a year early. No, I think I stand by my prediction.

02:13:48   It's a, and again, no little birdies whatsoever. I think that that's the new SE because I think

02:13:55   Apple wants the SE to look different than the flagship model. And I think it is easier to

02:14:02   communicate to customers that this is the entry priced model or the lower tier if it looks distinct

02:14:15   like that. I don't think it would look bad if that flat thing ships, but it does not look as good,

02:14:20   you know, and there are no, there's, there's just no way they're going to abandon this. And I know,

02:14:24   and again, there's that the people who wanted it to ship and were disappointed that it shipped and

02:14:29   really latched on to the people who were saying that the, the actual series seven that we have

02:14:36   was like a last minute scrap, you know, that doesn't happen. No. Well, and it doesn't make

02:14:42   any sense that, that the, that they couldn't make an aluminum chassis with flat sides and had to

02:14:48   abandon it, but they could make the screen bigger and go closer to the edges and reduce the bezels.

02:14:53   And the impact resistance. Right. And impact resistance, like that's the hard thing. They

02:14:58   could put it in whatever shape case they wanted to, you know, I just think it's a branding thing

02:15:04   or a product marketing thing, whatever you want to call it. And that they, by making the SE look

02:15:08   different, it would establish the SE as its own thing at a lower price. You know, sort of exactly

02:15:16   the way that the non-pro iPhones look different. They aluminum looks, does not look shiny. It looks

02:15:24   matte and you know, the back was a 249 iPad. Like it's visually distinct, visually distinct in a way

02:15:30   that the current iPhone SE is not, even though it doesn't have the big display like the series seven.

02:15:37   I will say this, I, again, this is almost the curse of being a product reviewer.

02:15:43   I owned a series five, which I really, really, I jumped on because I really wanted the always

02:15:49   on display skipped series six because the real, the main thing I saw on the series six was that

02:15:54   the always on part was brighter and I didn't care about paying for that. And I planned on skipping

02:16:00   this year's too, but living with the review unit for two weeks, I really got used to the bigger

02:16:05   display and the battery life. Again, the other thing with this watch, it's very much in line

02:16:12   with the iPhone 13, the battery life is much larger. I can forget to charge my Apple watch

02:16:18   on a day and wear it to bed and it still gets through the next day.

02:16:21   And the always on is much brighter. I find I use that a lot. Like I'm looking at it right now and

02:16:26   I can see it just by glancing down. I couldn't. I did too. And I took off after like two weeks with

02:16:30   the review unit, I went back to my series five and I was like, this thing is the battery's dying all

02:16:35   the time. It's just dead. Exactly the same thing. And it's not bad. Yeah. And the series and my

02:16:40   series five didn't have like a depleted battery. It's the same battery, you know, maybe it's like

02:16:45   at 95% or 93% or something like that, but it's effectively the same day-to-day battery life I

02:16:50   was getting up until I started reviewing the series seven. But once I got a taste of the series seven,

02:16:55   I was like, ah, now I got to place an order for a series seven. So I got the series seven,

02:16:59   very happy with it. Same. Exactly the same. What was the other one? What else do we have?

02:17:04   The MacBook pros. Oh, I forgot. How could I forget the MacBook pros? Holy hell do I love

02:17:10   my, my M one max MacBook pro. Oh my same. Yeah. I don't, again, there's three things about it that

02:17:19   really like sold it for me. One is that it's just fast. Like I press render on a video.

02:17:23   I go to get coffee and it's done so fast that I sometimes think I forgot to press render,

02:17:28   which is like, it is so much faster. The other thing though, the two things that surprised me,

02:17:33   one is like an iPad is just instant. Previously I would like drag a special effect. It would,

02:17:38   it would snowball, it would, it would beach ball. And I'd have to do that every time. Now I live a

02:17:42   life almost entirely without beach ball. So it doesn't just save me minutes. It saves me seconds

02:17:47   within every minute. And the last thing that surprised me was because it's got separate

02:17:52   rendering engines on my old Intel MacBook, I would press render and then I could barely use Safari

02:17:57   because everything was being done on the CPU, like much less Photoshop. Now I press render. It's all

02:18:02   offloaded to those engines. And I have like another whole Mac that I can use to do anything

02:18:07   else with at the same time. And that's just completely revolutionized my workflow.

02:18:10   John Greenewald And the fans don't come on.

02:18:12   Jared I mean, yeah, it's cold in Canada now, John,

02:18:15   I used to use my MacBook as a heat blanket as a space heater.

02:18:18   John Greenewald It's really phenomenal. I swear, I know it's the placebo effect. I know it. Well,

02:18:23   I don't know. I could be wrong, but I'm 98% sure it is the placebo effect. But I swear to God,

02:18:30   the keyboard feels better because the well is black. And it looks better. It looks

02:18:35   Jared It has to.

02:18:37   John Greenewald It looks better. I do wish, I wish that they would just anodize the whole thing black

02:18:43   like that. I would love to have a black MacBook Pro, just black as black as the well of that

02:18:48   keyboard. But we don't.

02:18:50   Jared Matt black all the things.

02:18:51   John Greenewald Yeah, Matt black all the things. But man, I do love typing on that thing. I do love

02:18:58   the display. The notch, total non issue. I was done with that notch. I think I said this recently,

02:19:04   too, on another episode. But I was way I think maybe with Joanna, but I took me way longer to

02:19:10   get used to the notch on the iPhone 10 than the notch on the the MacBook. Yeah, honestly,

02:19:17   and I really thought and I know that that was like a late breaking rumor. I think it

02:19:21   like leaked the night before, or two nights before it was one of those things that leaked really,

02:19:27   really late that there you know, there was going to be a notch and I thought that way that's the

02:19:32   dumbest thing I ever heard that would be stupid on the Mac. And it's like, you know what the menu bar

02:19:37   is actually kind of a good spot. And as long as the software has some sort of intelligence to move

02:19:41   if if something is going to run into it, move it to the other side. It the Mac interface with that

02:19:48   iconic, literally, I will not literally, is it literal? I don't know. I'm gonna say it's

02:19:54   literally iconic, because there are some icons up there in the menu bar. But yeah, but the menu bar

02:19:59   is has been at least a figuratively iconic part of Mac interface right from 1984 onwards. Yeah,

02:20:09   it is very different from Windows where there is no menu bar at the top of the screen, their menus

02:20:14   are in the windows. It's an it's a good place to do something like that, in the same way that the

02:20:21   top of the iPhone screen is sort of a good place to put something like that, you know, like where

02:20:25   the iPhone really suffers with the notch is when you go to landscape to watch a video or something

02:20:30   like that, or play a game or something like that. It seems weird. It's,

02:20:34   Jared: But in both cases, like, I think people forget that it's extra screen real estate,

02:20:38   like, if it was still a forehead, we wouldn't have that. Right. So it's just extra space that they

02:20:42   can shove status into. It seems, you know, a couple months in, there's no surprises that have come up

02:20:50   with these new MacBook Pros. They are every bit as good as we thought they were when we reviewed

02:20:56   them one weekend. It is sort of thrilling to see Apple putting the pedal to the metal on and

02:21:05   literally applying their absolute best and brightest effort to the Mac and the Mac hardware.

02:21:16   You know, it's, you know, for all the doom and gloom over, hey, I don't know, guys, I think

02:21:22   Apple's I think Apple's abandoning the Mac. I think they're just going to stick iOS on everything

02:21:26   from five or six years ago. Boy, you don't hear that anymore. You really don't.

02:21:31   Jared: Well, I know like you did your annual interview with JAWS and Craig. And I got to

02:21:37   talk to Tim Millett, the vice president of silicon, and the head of Mac product marketing. Later after

02:21:44   these shipped, Tom Boger, sorry, and the amount of love that was just seeping out of every pore of

02:21:51   their being for the Mac. And you could see how happy they were with like both the silicon engines

02:21:56   that they built, but also with the resurgence of the Mac product line. They were literally beaming,

02:22:01   which like you used to see that at WWDC sometimes depending what they're going to announce,

02:22:06   but their level of happiness was so high. And that to me is always a good indicator.

02:22:09   Pete: Yeah, very much so. And Bogert is great. I've known him for a few years and his,

02:22:14   Jared; Yes, he's a lifer.

02:22:15   Pete; Yeah, he really is. But it's, and he really, you know, who knows, you know, he's,

02:22:20   you know, anybody could get promoted elsewhere or move somewhere else. But his passion for the Mac

02:22:26   is palpable, you know, and you know, whether it's officially and on the record or unofficially and

02:22:35   off the record behind the scenes, it's serious. I remember, he was the guy I asked him, I asked

02:22:41   him at WWDC the year before if I could ride around on one of the Mac Pros with wheels.

02:22:47   Jared; Yes.

02:22:48   Pete; And he seemed tempted to let me. He said, you know, it could hold your weight. He goes,

02:22:55   I don't know that we should do it here though. Jared; No, that's the pro, the pro workflows team

02:22:59   gets all the cool Mac Pro slits. Pete; All right, down to home stretch,

02:23:04   because there's not much more that Apple did this year. The Mac OS 12 Monterey shipped,

02:23:10   I would say, pretty successful, a lot like iOS 15. It's not that they, it's not that they didn't do

02:23:17   anything. It's not like, there's not some new features that are cool. But it's sort of steady

02:23:22   as she goes, right? It's, you know, Jared; It's just universal control. We're waiting for it,

02:23:25   which was the whizbang demo. Pete; Right, that's the whizbang. Yeah,

02:23:28   that's obviously next, you know, early next year thing, hopefully. But otherwise, you know,

02:23:34   for me, upgrading to Mac OS 12 was, other than taking longer, because when you cross that

02:23:40   integer boundary of OS updates, you have, it's like a serious update that turns the screen black

02:23:47   for a while and gives you a minutes long thing that you don't get when going from 12.1 to 12.2

02:23:54   or something like that. But the end result for me day to day as a user felt much more like going to

02:24:04   11.7 or something like that. It doesn't, there's nothing, nothing got broken either software wise

02:24:11   or habit wise, right? Jared: It fixed a lot of annoying bugs for me,

02:24:15   which is always a plus. Pete; Yeah, that's a good sign. And, you know, and it's,

02:24:18   I know that that doesn't sell stuff. And I know that those of us who really clamor, you know,

02:24:24   famously, like, you know, it's old enough, old enough now that it was Bertrand Cerlet,

02:24:29   who announced it, but the 10.6 Mountain Lion, where they even chose a name going from lion to

02:24:36   mountain lion that, you know, and no new features. And meanwhile, there were major new features like

02:24:41   Grand Central Dispatch. Jared; Oh, Snow Leopard, yeah.

02:24:44   Pete; Or Snow Leopard, Snow Leopard, not Mountain Lion, that's right.

02:24:47   Jared; Yeah, Mountain Lion as well, that was the grand tradition.

02:24:49   Pete; Right, but Snow Leopard, no, it was Snow Leopard was 10.6, right? I know the number,

02:24:55   I confuse the names, but 10.6 was the one where they even had a slide that just like dropped with

02:25:00   a cloud of dust, no new features and… Jared; Yeah, cool, because Steve was upset that there

02:25:04   weren't a lot of new features to announce. He's like, "Oh, yeah, we're just gonna do no features,

02:25:07   that's even better." Pete; But it was like raucous applause from the WWDC audience. And I know the

02:25:13   WWDC in-person audience is obviously different from the, the, the mainstream, you know, people,

02:25:22   you know, developers who are willing to spend $5,000 for a week to, to, you know, to be there

02:25:30   is a different crowd, but it was raucous applause because, and I know that that's not, you know,

02:25:35   you can't make commercials like that. You know what I mean? There's no way to put a commercial

02:25:41   during football games on Sunday afternoon that says, you know, Mac OS 12, no new features,

02:25:47   lots of bug fixes, you know, that the commercial, that commercial doesn't write itself quite the

02:25:52   opposite. But, you know, it's what we want, right? You know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

02:25:57   I will say I still haven't turned it off. The one feature that annoys me on the Mac is Quick Note,

02:26:04   because for whatever reason, I've got stuff in my lower right corner, I go down there and then

02:26:09   every, I've never once wanted to make a quick note on my Mac. And that stupid little window

02:26:16   keeps popping up. Yeah, I see. I don't do it on the Mac at all. I do it on the iPad all the time,

02:26:20   never use it on the Mac. The thing for me is like, the notifications are still way too persistent.

02:26:25   Like they come in, they stay around way too long. They don't like a guest that won't leave.

02:26:29   Yeah, that's enough. And then the whole thing comes over again every time. Yeah. And I if

02:26:33   there's anything that was surprising to me that didn't get like a real UI, a back to the drawing

02:26:39   board, it was the big sir Mac OS 11 notifications. There's there's all sorts of wonky stuff in the UI

02:26:46   where like, the regions that you can click on to click on things don't correspond to the actual

02:26:53   things you see on screen. You know, some of the I think some of them are smaller, and some of them

02:26:57   are bigger and things that just should not happen. Like on time delays. Yeah, it's just weird and

02:27:03   does not it feels unfinished, but shipped. And then in Mac OS 12, they didn't really seem to

02:27:10   address it. So hopefully that's on the list for Mac OS 13. I don't have much more to say about

02:27:16   that, though. Shortcut shipped. That's that's a big deal for those of us who are enthusiasts.

02:27:21   Speaking of bad UI, I really thought from well, I'm not surprised. And but but what they showed

02:27:31   in June and the first beta, just simple things like when you tell a shortcut to just show an

02:27:36   alert with some text, the alert is not a Mac alert. And you can you can complain about the

02:27:43   big sir style alerts and say they the actual proper alerts in Big Sur look too much like iOS,

02:27:51   and it's not appropriate for the Mac. And I don't like the design. But that's not even what you get

02:27:55   with shortcuts, you get this weird little shortcut thing that really, really, if you just showed it

02:28:01   to somebody and didn't tell them what it was, they would guess that it was like, some sort of

02:28:07   Linux to Mac trans programming platform thing. And yeah, some kind of cross platform thing and

02:28:17   that whoever decided what it would look like for the Mac wasn't even a Mac user. And just,

02:28:21   you know, there's a button, you know, there's an OK button in the bottom right that says OK, but

02:28:26   nothing about the layout of this actually looks Mac like. And I think, you know, I know, you know,

02:28:33   I'm far from an expert on shortcuts, although I've gotten more into them than I had before.

02:28:38   You know, I'm no Federico. But yeah, or Rosemary Orchard, you know, and they but they've said this

02:28:45   at length to like, I think long story short, the problem is shortcuts was the whether they

02:28:53   volunteered or not, they were the, the let's dog food Swift UI group. And Swift UI is not still not

02:29:03   up to the to the task of being what they wanted to be. But they had gone too far and they'd rewrote

02:29:10   everything in Swift UI. And that's what we got. But that's why the like the I think that's why

02:29:16   like the alerts don't look standard because the standard alerts aren't in Swift UI. They're in

02:29:21   AppKit or UI kit. And they like made their own and Swift UI and did not did not do a great job of it.

02:29:30   So there's lots of lots of room for improvement there with shortcuts. But it was announced in a

02:29:35   good way where they said this will be a transition from automator to shortcuts and automator is,

02:29:42   you know, still there. So you know, it's, you know, let's see where they go in a year, hopefully,

02:29:48   you know, make some improvements. I would still like to see them do something where you could

02:29:51   do automator steps with a language, you know, and that language could be some sort of cut down

02:30:00   version of Swift could just be JavaScript, obviously, but something because there are

02:30:05   some things that are just, Oh, man, it would be so much easier to just write a few lines of

02:30:10   actual code, if you can write code. And that to me is the one thing automator got right. That's

02:30:16   shortcuts doesn't is that automator fundamentally is the same sort of idea where you drag and drop

02:30:22   these sort of pre made steps and do the pre programming visually by connecting these things

02:30:31   in a visual way without writing code. But if there's ever a time when you need to use code,

02:30:37   you can always just add an automator step that calls any scripting language that Mac OS 10

02:30:42   supports Apple script, or bash or pearl or Python, or Ruby, I think anything that comes with Mac OS

02:30:51   10. It comes with a plethora of Unix style scripting languages plus good old fashioned

02:30:56   Apple script. shortcuts could use something like that. Long story short.

02:31:00   Jared Ranere just want nodal editors, they just want a nodal editor, you can pack anything into

02:31:02   it and chip it.

02:31:03   John Greenewald And then the only thing else I have, there was nothing in December, I don't

02:31:09   think Apple really had any news in December, other than some of the epic stuff that we talked about

02:31:13   before. But in November, Craig Federighi went to Lisbon, Portugal, and spoke at the web summit

02:31:20   against sideloading. I thought that was interesting. We talked about sideloading earlier,

02:31:25   we don't have to get into the argument. I do think he makes a compelling argument about having

02:31:31   a choice between, you know, if legislators around the world say, legally, all platforms must allow

02:31:39   sideloading, then somebody who does not want to even use a platform where it's an option,

02:31:45   loses the ability to have that choice, you know, and, and,

02:31:48   Jared Ranere It's like you said, Jonas has a PS5, if you wanted a gaming PC, you could have that,

02:31:53   but you shouldn't force the PS5 to be a gaming PC.

02:31:55   John Greenewald Well, he got the gaming PC two years ago.

02:31:57   Jared Ranere Yeah, get both. I mean, that's the whole thing, you get to choose.

02:32:00   John Greenewald But it is the,

02:32:03   Jared Ranere Like us, just get an iPhone and an Android.

02:32:04   John Greenewald But the PS, I'll tell you what, even he said the PS5 was so much easier to set up.

02:32:08   Jared Ranere Yeah, that's, that's, that's the benefit. Like there are pros and cons to both.

02:32:12   I think a lot of times nerds think that there's only cons to the other approach and there's not,

02:32:15   because they're, I recently asked what people wanted to see in iOS 16 on Twitter, and 95% of

02:32:22   the answers I got were for features that only apply to 5% of the market. And that's the distortion

02:32:26   lens of tech Twitter or tech YouTube is that we really are outliers. We're minorities who think

02:32:31   that we're the majority and we are not. And it, I do think, and I think Federighi's argument,

02:32:36   and I know Apple released a white paper on the same thing back in June, and his talk

02:32:41   in November was largely on the same point, but I feel like they've really honed it down. And I

02:32:46   think as a talk with Federighi as the person delivering it, it really came across even better.

02:32:52   But it really is true that the nerd argument is, hey, if you don't want it, don't turn it on,

02:32:58   right? Which is how the Mac works, right? The Mac by default ships a fresh Mac with factory settings,

02:33:05   doesn't allow you to install apps from outside the App Store. You have to authenticate as an

02:33:09   admin user and then check a checkbox in the security system prefs panel, and then you can

02:33:15   install them, you know, whatever apps you want. And that's great for the Mac, because that's the

02:33:20   way the Mac was designed. But that's exactly what so many people want for iPadOS and iOS.

02:33:26   And the just leave it checked if that's what you want argument. The hole in that argument is that

02:33:33   people, some organizations and needs will require you to disable it. And one of the examples that I

02:33:41   like to go to are these school proctoring software things where kids taking tests, and it's all come

02:33:49   up over the last two years because of kids who were taking school remotely because of COVID.

02:33:53   It's awful software. It's truly awful software. And it does terrible things like try to follow

02:34:00   the kids eyes where they're looking. And what do you do, though, if, you know, if, if, if iPhone,

02:34:07   if iOS were forced to allow sideloading, and your employer required you to install something that

02:34:15   turned off the protections, what do you do? You know, it's or government like the same privacy

02:34:21   advocates who are so against any of the CSAM scanning governments are going to force people

02:34:25   to put they already tried to do that on the DNS level, right? And kids who are going to want game

02:34:29   emulators, they're good like Nintendo's, they're not going to care. There's one thing, you know,

02:34:33   and look at what Facebook tried to do with the current rules in place where they tried to,

02:34:38   you know, overuse the enterprise certificate to get teenagers to install a VPN software.

02:34:48   Yeah, that Nova, yeah, that the entire point of which was to allow Facebook to track every single

02:34:55   thing they did over the network on their phones to see what what's useful, you know, which is

02:35:00   famously how they figured out that WhatsApp was so much more popular than it seemingly was valued at.

02:35:06   And, you know, will you know, they were like, we should we should definitely buy this, this is not

02:35:11   overpriced. This is look at the data we have from tracking what people actually do on their phones,

02:35:16   it's incredibly popular and growing. That's what they did before sideloading was allowed, you know,

02:35:21   and that if, if this like, sort of easy sideloading with no friction, and just check a box

02:35:28   thing were available, you know, what happens when Facebook starts telling all of their users, hey,

02:35:35   if you switch from this, you're using the App Store version of Facebook, if you switch to

02:35:40   Facebook's version of Facebook, will give you X, Y, and Z, you know, and people who don't know any

02:35:46   better do it. And, you know, next thing you know, your phone's on 23 metaverse credits.

02:35:51   Michael sigh on his great web blog had a link. I haven't linked to it on during fireball yet,

02:35:56   but I've been meaning to had a link the other day. I think it was a writer or Sarah No,

02:36:01   wasn't I right or somebody was talking about it, but somebody had a support thing about it. But

02:36:06   you've heard of Grammarly Grammarly is much popular. I say, if you install this is true,

02:36:11   if you install Grammarly on your Mac, they write a preference setting that disables the systems

02:36:19   spell checking system wide, not just for like the Grammarly app, but any app because Grammarly is

02:36:25   somehow supposed to work. I don't know, I've never used the damn thing. But, you know,

02:36:30   supposed to work in any app. And then you say, I don't like Grammarly. And then you drag it to the

02:36:35   trash and you think you're done with it. But the preference setting is still there. And now you

02:36:38   don't have the system spelling checking in any app. Well, that's that is so patently offensive.

02:36:45   It's ridiculous. But it's possible on the Mac, right? It's impossible. Grammarly for iOS,

02:36:52   if there is a version of Grammarly for iOS can't do that because of the sandboxing.

02:36:56   Well, Chrome and their Keystone installer that was causing me a lot of problems and

02:37:00   a lot of problems. Right, right. And we never really got to the bottom of that, right? That

02:37:05   was still sort of a, it's still sort of a, you know, there's a lot of smoke, but we still never

02:37:10   found the fire of how come people were having this bizarre, you know, 30% CPU usage just in

02:37:17   the background with Chrome even quit. And then you uninstall Chrome completely and the problem

02:37:23   goes away. Yet nobody's figured out what the hell was going on. It's just kind of weird because

02:37:27   there were some big brains on the problem. But again, but you can't have a Keystone installer,

02:37:32   right? You cannot do it. There's no way to do it. You can't be asked to check a box so that you can

02:37:38   allow it. It's just not there. That's a feature. And on the Mac, the fact that you can is a feature.

02:37:44   That is why they are different platforms. You know, and there's so few like the thing is like,

02:37:49   I understand like there's big nerd love for all of these platforms, but there's so few really

02:37:53   mainstream friendly platforms. There's basically iOS and Chrome and yet we covered them. So we want

02:37:58   to take them away and make them all nerdy platforms, but that really does a disservice

02:38:02   to the 90% of the market that really just wants something that's simple and easy to use. And

02:38:06   they've, we've got everything else. We've got windows, we've got Android, we've got Mac iOS,

02:38:09   we've got Linux. We've already got all this stuff. Anything else, Renee? It feels like the only big

02:38:16   thing that I liked at the end of the year was Apple suing NSO group. Facebook also famously

02:38:21   tried to use to get it. Yeah, that is sort of a nice cherry on the top of the new year. Let's hope,

02:38:27   wish them success. And boy, the more we learn about the NSO group, the worse they look,

02:38:33   number one, the fact that that story that came out a week or two ago that Netanyahu was using it as

02:38:40   a calling card in countries like Uganda and like the worst countries on the planet.

02:38:47   Boy, that's just awful. And then the details of how their Pegasus exploit actually worked,

02:38:54   which are just bananas, you know, that it was… Yeah, you linked to that, right?

02:38:59   Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a PDF with a .gif file extension and the PDF contains some sort of

02:39:08   obscure late 90s image format that was originally designed for fax machines, but that has a single

02:39:17   pass parser just reading from the beginning to the end of the file, but the nature of the file format

02:39:22   allowed an entire Turing complete computer, an emulated computer system to be built inside of it

02:39:32   is so crazy complicated and as a… forgetting how they used it out in the world, just the fact that

02:39:41   they pulled it off is sort of a, you know, hats off to you, clap, clap, clap, this is a magnificent

02:39:49   accomplishment, but also, you know, completely used for some of the worst purposes imaginable.

02:39:58   So here's hoping, you know, and it does seem bad. I mean, and Apple's lawsuit is not like perfunctory,

02:40:05   you know, like sometimes they say, you know, like, "Oh, you know, you got to file, you know,

02:40:10   protect a trade." You got to defend your copyright. You got to defend your copyright and you file like

02:40:13   a perfunctory, you know, cease and desist or what do they call it on YouTube? The, like with the

02:40:19   music. The DMCA. Yeah, DMCA files. And this is not like perfunctory and like somebody low down

02:40:26   an Apple legal, like, "Oh, I guess, you know, I, you know, just to, you know, just to tie things

02:40:32   off for the Friday, I'll just, busy work, I'll just file this lawsuit against NSO Group." No,

02:40:36   they are mad. I mean, they are really mad. And Apple, you're just not used to seeing Apple

02:40:44   be mad, right? They're just, this is not their brand, but they are furious, they are furious

02:40:50   about this. And I really do think the intent of their lawsuit is to sue NSO Group out of

02:40:57   existence. Yep. Good riddance. Yeah, good riddance. Let's wish them luck. And this is one,

02:41:02   this is also one of those cases too, where Apple obviously has detractors, people who disagree with

02:41:09   their philosophies, people who, you know, just don't like their style. They don't like the

02:41:14   control. I haven't seen anybody who's like rooting against Apple in this case. Yes. Everyone's like,

02:41:20   "Go, go, go." So, yeah, that was a nice thing to end the year on. It was very nice. And I feel

02:41:26   like they're on good ground. I mean, I don't know, you know, what the, I don't know how it's going

02:41:34   to turn out. I won't predict it as an Israeli company. What does that mean? What kind of

02:41:39   liability do they have? But— They can make the company toxic. I mean, just like through the

02:41:42   lawsuit, they can make the company absolutely toxic. Right. Well, and the other thing too,

02:41:45   that really, I don't know that it helps the lawsuit, but the other thing too is that the US

02:41:50   federal government is also really, really pissed. Like, you know, like the State Department, you

02:41:57   know, and the fact that actual state, US State Department employees had this deployed against

02:42:02   them. You know, and at one level, if it was like, I don't know, the Chinese or the Russians or

02:42:06   somebody who we have an adversarial relationship with internationally, it would be one thing.

02:42:11   They'd still be mad. But the fact that the software originates with one of our closest

02:42:17   ostensible allies, Israel, is I think the thing that takes this to a different level of pissed off.

02:42:24   Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. How many videos do you think you made this year?

02:42:28   Oh, I don't know, 100, 150?

02:42:31   Wow. That's, I don't know how you do it, René.

02:42:34   Maybe more. I got to check.

02:42:35   I was on your video page just to go back and get for the show notes and find your reviews of some

02:42:40   of the recent products. And I'm like, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, just to get to like the

02:42:45   iPhone 13. And I was like, that's a lot of videos.

02:42:48   Yeah, no, it's a lot. I hit 300,000 subscribers right before coming on the show too, which was

02:42:53   really a nice way to end the year.

02:42:54   Oh, there we go. Well, you know.

02:42:56   371 videos in the last 18 months.

02:42:59   Wow.

02:42:59   We can do the math.

02:43:00   Wow. So that's even more than 158 a year.

02:43:02   Yeah.

02:43:03   That's quite a lot. Well, keep it up. I enjoy it very much.

02:43:06   Anything else you want to, you want to give a shout out to?

02:43:10   No, just, it's great to do these every year. I really appreciate it.

02:43:13   I do too. You know, we kept it short. You know, we're under the three hour mark.

02:43:16   Yes.

02:43:17   My thanks to our sponsors. We had, oh, did I do a third sponsor? I don't know that I did.

02:43:23   I don't think I did.

02:43:24   I don't know.

02:43:24   No, I didn't. Oh, well, let me tack it on right now.

02:43:26   Dude, let it in.

02:43:27   Yeah, no, I'll do it right now. Let's end the show. Tell you about Squarespace. Holy

02:43:31   hell, I almost forgot about Squarespace. How could I do that?

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02:43:54   You do it all in a browser. It is WYSIWYG. It is a great place to send your non-technical friends

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02:44:08   start at squarespace.com/talkshow. You get 30 days free. There's no watermark on the site during the

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02:44:26   that code talk show, when you pay, you save 10% off your first purchase and you can do it for up

02:44:32   to a year. So there you go. Squarespace. Almost forgot them. How could I do that?

02:44:36   Easily my number one sponsor for the year. My thanks to them for still being here. I'll also

02:44:44   thank our other sponsors. We had a Memberful where you can monetize your passion with membership and

02:44:51   Linode, the server hosting company. Holy smokes, almost forgot a sponsor.

02:44:57   - Second of year, John.

02:44:59   - What kind of year, John?

02:45:00   (laughing)